Speaker 1: Big things happen when you're pretty, pretty bold, pretty clever,
Speaker 1: pretty strong. I'm Danielle Robe and each week my guests
Speaker 1: and I have conversations that put a new spin on pretty.
Speaker 1: This is pretty smart. Hello. Okay, so we dropped two
Speaker 1: episodes this week, one more serious and one more fun
Speaker 1: and lighthearted. And on this choose your own adventure, you
Speaker 1: chose the fun and lighthearted ones. So let's get into it.
Speaker 1: Today's episode is going to hit you right in your
Speaker 1: pop culture loving heart. I promise it's a deep dive
Speaker 1: into reality TV, but not just the drama or the
Speaker 1: guilty pleasure of it. All the culture, the conversations, the
Speaker 1: connections that these shows inspire. Joining us are two women
Speaker 1: who have completely redefined the way we think about reality TV.
Speaker 1: Natasha Scott and Justin are the minds behind Two Black Girls,
Speaker 1: One Rose. If you're not already familiar with their podcast,
Speaker 1: let me catch you up. Natasha and Justine started out
Speaker 1: as fans of the Bachelor franchise. They were drawn in
Speaker 1: by Rachel Lindsay's groundbreaking season as the first black lead,
Speaker 1: But instead of just recapping the episodes like so many
Speaker 1: other shows did, they decided to get personal do something different.
Speaker 1: They brought their own lived experiences as black women into
Speaker 1: the conversation and they were offering a kind of commentary
Speaker 1: that was missing from the mainstream. People were obsessed, and
Speaker 1: over time their podcast has grown into something so much bigger. Yes,
Speaker 1: it's about dissecting reality TV, but it's also about unpacking race, relationships, gender,
Speaker 1: and society through the lens of pop culture. So whether
Speaker 1: they're calling out casting choices, breaking down nuanced portrayals of love,
Speaker 1: or fangirling over their favorite reality stars, Justine and Natasha
Speaker 1: bring so much humor and intelligence and really a much
Speaker 1: needed perspective to a genre that too often overlooks it.
Speaker 1: So today you're gonna hear their love for shows like
Speaker 1: Laguna Beach yep, Laguna. I promise they'll explain why, and
Speaker 1: The Bachelor and how these shows and their love of
Speaker 1: them has evolved into a full fledged community of listeners
Speaker 1: who tune in for these thoughtful conversations. We're going to
Speaker 1: talk about what reality shows get wrong and sometimes surprisingly
Speaker 1: what they get right. We're also going to dive into
Speaker 1: how these shows reflect who we are as a culture
Speaker 1: and why so many of us can't stop watching, and
Speaker 1: of course, the lessons they've learned from reality TV. There
Speaker 1: are lessons to be learned. They taught me on love,
Speaker 1: on friendship, and human nature. Natasha and Justine are sharp
Speaker 1: and funny, and by the end of this conversation you'll
Speaker 1: understand why their podcast has become a go to for
Speaker 1: so many people looking for more than just surface level
Speaker 1: takes on pop culture. So let's get into it. Natasha, Justine,
Speaker 1: it all started on a beach, Laguna Beach, to be exact.
Speaker 1: The two of you ran in similar social circles, but
Speaker 1: you didn't actually connect until you heard that the other
Speaker 1: had a DVD copy of Laguna Beach and Justine, I
Speaker 1: literally laughed out loud when I watched you in another interview, say,
Speaker 1: is this really what white people are doing?
Speaker 2: Listen?
Speaker 3: Because we went to a private school, right, small all
Speaker 3: girls private school, and so it was very segregated, so
Speaker 3: I had no idea what.
Speaker 2: The white girls at school were doing.
Speaker 3: But I was like, you guys are drinking at your parents' house.
Speaker 1: And Natasha, what was it for you? Why did you
Speaker 1: like Laguna?
Speaker 4: They just seemed to have this level of freedom. They
Speaker 4: were also teenagers but were doing like adult things. There
Speaker 4: never seemed to be adults around. It was like they
Speaker 4: were just raising each other, like the blind leading the
Speaker 4: blind among these teens and just living this life that
Speaker 4: I could never have imagined living because my was on
Speaker 4: my ass.
Speaker 2: So it just looked so fun.
Speaker 1: It looked so idyllic. So you started with your love
Speaker 1: for Laguna, but then it wasn't until The Bachelorette that
Speaker 1: you really like started your pod. It's two black girls,
Speaker 1: one Rose, and you were both invested in Rachel Lindsay's season,
Speaker 1: which is exciting for me to talk about because she's
Speaker 1: a friend of mine and she was the first black
Speaker 1: lead on the show, which was huge and also a
Speaker 1: lot of pressure on her. From what I understand from
Speaker 1: your past interviews, it kind of fueled your search for
Speaker 1: expanded content, and you were saying that the recap podcast
Speaker 1: that existed just missed the mark because they were missing
Speaker 1: the perspective of people of color entirely.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it really felt like they were just watching a
Speaker 4: different show than ours. I just feel like, you know,
Speaker 4: we're watching this black woman look for love. We've never
Speaker 4: seen this before. In the Bachelor's sphere. We're seeing more
Speaker 4: black men than ever as well. On Bachelor, they had
Speaker 4: a character character. They had a contest I can't remember
Speaker 4: his will he had never dated a black woman. And
Speaker 4: that was like a very quick convo that they had
Speaker 4: between Rachel and Will, and they kind of just like
Speaker 4: rushed over it. And then listening to recot podcasts, I
Speaker 4: wanted to hear how they were going to talk about
Speaker 4: this because me and Justine were up watching the show
Speaker 4: and like, just what the hell why would they cast
Speaker 4: this guy? Like why would they cast this guy for
Speaker 4: Rachel specifically? Like just a weird missed opportunity to have
Speaker 4: that conversation about him not really dating within his race,
Speaker 4: and so that like just little nuances like that were
Speaker 4: just getting swept I'm gonna say swept under the road.
Speaker 4: They just weren't even like seen by people recapping and
Speaker 4: watching the show.
Speaker 1: When I listened to your show, it strikes me as
Speaker 1: an opportunity for white people to contextualize reality TV in
Speaker 1: a different way. When did you guys realize that this
Speaker 1: could be more than just a podcast but a platform
Speaker 1: to challenge how people think about reality TV.
Speaker 3: Always made content for black women. It just happens to
Speaker 3: be that we made it around a show that has
Speaker 3: a mostly white audience. And we have a lot a
Speaker 3: lot of white listeners, majority of white listeners. But I
Speaker 3: think the biggest eye opening one for me was Matt
Speaker 3: James the season. I remember even a coworker of mine
Speaker 3: saying to me, I know what I'm watching is wrong,
Speaker 3: but I don't know what.
Speaker 1: Is wrong exactly like ooh, say more.
Speaker 3: On Matt James' season, they had him do things that
Speaker 3: were really really pretty offensive and pretty like stereotypical storytelling
Speaker 3: for a black male lens and he was the first
Speaker 3: black bachelor, and they had him meet his father, who
Speaker 3: he hadn't spoken to in years, on camera and talk
Speaker 3: about how he's been without him as a as a dad,
Speaker 3: and how that has made him feel. That is not
Speaker 3: a conversation, that's entertainment. That's a conversation to be had
Speaker 3: behind closed doors. When Matt first came to the Mansion,
Speaker 3: he said to the host at the time, Chris Harrison,
Speaker 3: He's not gonna pick who America wants him to pick.
Speaker 3: Everybody took that a different way, like the was so
Speaker 3: Ill explained that everybody took it differently and it turned
Speaker 3: off a lot of people from watching the show. And
Speaker 3: when it was all said and done, when Chris got
Speaker 3: fired and they had a manual octa what they're hosting.
Speaker 3: A lot of our listeners, I think wanted to know
Speaker 3: what was wrong with what they were watching.
Speaker 1: Did you explain it right away?
Speaker 2: Yeah, because we saw it right away. We spotted it
Speaker 2: right away.
Speaker 3: I think there's nuances right when you're a woman, right,
Speaker 3: there's like nuances that you're looking for when you're a
Speaker 3: black woman. There's nuances you're looking for when you're an
Speaker 3: Asian woman. There's nuances. And to us, it's just so glaring.
Speaker 3: So we pointed out everything.
Speaker 2: I was just gonna add.
Speaker 4: Yeah, Matt James' season was like a really tough season
Speaker 4: for us to recap because we really on our show
Speaker 4: want to have fun, like we're two best friends watching
Speaker 4: TV talking about it. Sure, real life things come that
Speaker 4: we provide commentary for, but we really are trying to
Speaker 4: like center joy and fun, and his season was it
Speaker 4: was just really frustrating watching how this black man's journey
Speaker 4: for love was going down, and so there was a
Speaker 4: lot of I also even demands from our audience to
Speaker 4: be like, can you please like break down what's going on?
Speaker 4: And for me, that was really to your question when
Speaker 4: it was in my face, like, oh, we're doing something
Speaker 4: bigger here, Like there's more of people are coming to
Speaker 4: us for almost like education in a way, which was
Speaker 4: not what we signed up to do.
Speaker 2: But now we're in it.
Speaker 4: Now we gotta somehow like battle with this and figure
Speaker 4: it out.
Speaker 1: Do these shows all make us feel like insiders, Like
Speaker 1: what does it say about community and gossip and the
Speaker 1: way that people are gathering in twenty twenty four?
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think like Justina and I's friendship started around TV, right,
Speaker 4: having fun, sitting with a friend, keeking about something we're
Speaker 4: watching on TV. And I think what our community has
Speaker 4: really taught me is just like how important one how
Speaker 4: important community is, but like it doesn't take much to
Speaker 4: rally around something and find commonality with others.
Speaker 2: We have some.
Speaker 4: Listeners you know that we've met where they they either
Speaker 4: watch the show by themselves and they don't have anyone
Speaker 4: to talk to, or they're you know, in medical school
Speaker 4: and super isolated there, you know, so they find community
Speaker 4: in our little hub where they can find some like
Speaker 4: minded people that are also fanatics of whatever show we're watching.
Speaker 4: And that's been really really heartwarming for us. Like starting
Speaker 4: this community is you know, the basis of it was
Speaker 4: Justine and I and our community together and how we
Speaker 4: were about to how we were able to expand that
Speaker 4: to allow others in, particularly others who might not have
Speaker 4: but Justine right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I will say that I think women find community
Speaker 3: in a lot of different spaces, and I think reality
Speaker 3: TV is probably the most fun. Natasha says all the
Speaker 3: time that when you watch reality TV, you can put
Speaker 3: on the shoes of the person that you're watching and say, well,
Speaker 3: I would do this, well I would that, well I
Speaker 3: would do this, And I think with shows like Love
Speaker 3: Is Blind that are so well produced, it's really easy
Speaker 3: to say those things. And then there's other shows that
Speaker 3: we love that we don't cover, right, like Couple's Therapy
Speaker 3: on Showtime that has so much empathy for the people
Speaker 3: who they are filming and the stories they are telling.
Speaker 3: And with all of that, we can take that and
Speaker 3: make that kind of like gossipy reality TV guilty pleasure.
Speaker 3: We can make it more of a kind of deeper
Speaker 3: dive and discussion into what we're doing culturally, and as women,
Speaker 3: that's a really that's something we really value.
Speaker 1: You know, you mentioned editing. I think anybody who watches
Speaker 1: reality TV shows constantly hears the participants say they were
Speaker 1: edited a certain way, or it was editing, it was
Speaker 1: the creative editing. You guys, when you talk about things
Speaker 1: on your show, you don't believe that it's totally inauthentic.
Speaker 1: What percent is real and what pric do you think
Speaker 1: is created by these producers and then edited?
Speaker 4: I think it definitely depends on the show. Some shows
Speaker 4: there's way more producer intervention, way more producer creating stories.
Speaker 4: I think The Bachelor's famous for that to heavily produced show.
Speaker 4: But I think I mean the people are saying those
Speaker 4: things out of their mouth, right. I mean on The Bachelor,
Speaker 4: they do a little frank in editing as they say,
Speaker 4: where they'll pake piece of word from this conventional this word,
Speaker 4: and then they splice it together. But generally people are
Speaker 4: saying exactly what they're saying. People are showing up exactly
Speaker 4: as they're showing up. I think editing sometimes is when
Speaker 4: they're not including much nuance or context or balancing out people.
Speaker 4: You know, they're just going to show all her worst bits,
Speaker 4: and you know that's not fair. She has her side too.
Speaker 4: We're seeing that right now on Love is Blind. The
Speaker 4: current season with Hannah. She's getting crucified on the internet
Speaker 4: right now for being like a you know, a really
Speaker 4: mean person, but we're only seeing one side to her.
Speaker 4: But yeah, it's it's so easy to just say it's
Speaker 4: the editing. The editing made me look like this, and
Speaker 4: it's okay, yes, but did you not say that thing?
Speaker 4: Like that's still came out of your mouth? Right. So
Speaker 4: I don't know the percentage, but we treat the show
Speaker 4: as if it's real, you know, because it is.
Speaker 2: That we're seeing.
Speaker 4: We're reacting exactly to what we're seeing on screen. Maybe
Speaker 4: people are amplifying their behavior, maybe editing is amplifying situations,
Speaker 4: but for the most part, what you're seeing is people's
Speaker 4: behaviors as they are.
Speaker 1: My only pushback to that is I feel like social
Speaker 1: media added a whole nother element here, like people go
Speaker 1: and reality TV stars have gotten smarter because they have examples,
Speaker 1: like there's been now years of reality TV. So they
Speaker 1: go on these shows or even apply knowing their Instagram
Speaker 1: followers are going to go up. And I think there's
Speaker 1: this whole like money brand building play.
Speaker 3: I think in order for you to actually be successful
Speaker 3: post reality TV show, you still have to be authentic, interesting,
Speaker 3: not even likable. But authenticity is the key. So if
Speaker 3: you go on there and you're out there looking for
Speaker 3: I just want to be on television. We all know
Speaker 3: this happened last season on Love is Blind with Drama
Speaker 3: with Trevor with a couple of these contestants where they
Speaker 3: clearly just went on for television and had no backup
Speaker 3: plan for how they were going to explain they had
Speaker 3: a full girlfriend at home. Yeah, and that makes you
Speaker 3: unlikable and that will not get you a brand deal
Speaker 3: because you're not You're inauthentic, and so you can't actually
Speaker 3: sell anything. And so I think crucifixions at reunions has
Speaker 3: been the new tactic for a lot.
Speaker 2: Of these producers and it's working.
Speaker 1: I think.
Speaker 2: I mean, Love is Blind has filmed a year ahead.
Speaker 1: But what do you mean crucifixions at reunions?
Speaker 3: Like on Love is Blind reunions, they definitely did this
Speaker 3: with Juram Sarah and last season where they all were
Speaker 3: just looking for television and they rip them apart at
Speaker 3: the reunion the hosts for doing that for coming on
Speaker 3: for television and not like authentically falling in love, just
Speaker 3: giving no authenticity at all during the season that was
Speaker 3: really it's just something they can't really work with.
Speaker 1: So you've mentioned Love is Blind a few times. Both
Speaker 1: of these I can tell you're probably watching right now. Also,
Speaker 1: I feel like we started with The Bachelor, there's married
Speaker 1: at First Sight Love is Blind. Like for every sort
Speaker 1: of love reality show, there's like four or five different
Speaker 1: spinoffs on random cable and streaming networks that I don't
Speaker 1: even know the title love is there still the same
Speaker 1: amount of intrigue, Like is there nuance in each show
Speaker 1: or do you think some of these just fall away.
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's definitely a nuance to each of them. So
Speaker 4: like Love is Blind, I mean season one was such
Speaker 4: a huge success for them that regardless, people are just
Speaker 4: going to tuning in. I think we're all still chasing
Speaker 4: the hive that season one, and over the course of
Speaker 4: the seven seasons they've had, I would say season four
Speaker 4: was very good, Season six is very good. Like they've
Speaker 4: had some great seasons, but I think everyone is still
Speaker 4: locked in. Also because when Love is Blind is on,
Speaker 4: it kind of just capitalizes social media conversation and you
Speaker 4: want to be a part of the conversation. It's like
Speaker 4: a severe sense of fomo. But then there's also like
Speaker 4: the ninety day fiances, Like that's a whole world, that's
Speaker 4: a whole different brand, right, that has a whole audience
Speaker 4: behind it, ninety fiances on season like twenty five or
Speaker 4: whatever it is. So there's like that messy good like dirty,
Speaker 4: guilty pleasure dating shows like that. And then you know
Speaker 4: you have like The Bachelor that's kind of just always
Speaker 4: been around. It's very predictable. It's like you know exactly
Speaker 4: what you're gonna get, and so there are little nuances
Speaker 4: to each of them. I think what's been really interesting
Speaker 4: is watching Love Island.
Speaker 2: Love Island.
Speaker 4: This past season of US. Love Island was I think
Speaker 4: the most successful season they had, and it did something
Speaker 4: very similar that Love is Blind does every season, which
Speaker 4: is capture the social media attention of everybody you want
Speaker 4: to be in the conversation.
Speaker 1: So I remember when I was growing up, I loved Survivor,
Speaker 1: and to this day, I think Jeff Probes is just such.
Speaker 1: He's like an incredible host. He's like so into the show.
Speaker 1: He's an icon truly, Like people have no idea how
Speaker 1: involved he is as a host. He helps write, he
Speaker 1: helps produce, like he really gives a shit, he really
Speaker 1: cares anyways. Jeff Probes aside. I remember there was a
Speaker 1: cultural conversation about how because they were kind of on
Speaker 1: the forefront of reality TV, and people were like, this
Speaker 1: show has gone too far, there's no decency for human life.
Speaker 1: And then here we are thirty something seasons later and
Speaker 1: Survivors basically white noise like it is on the in
Speaker 1: the background of these Yeah. Right, And so when I
Speaker 1: think about these shows now, like where you're like married
Speaker 1: at first like you just marry each other at the
Speaker 1: altar and all this stuff, like, do you guys think
Speaker 1: that any of these shows go too far?
Speaker 3: I'm casting now, I was going to say casting, but
Speaker 3: definitely with casting. I think like Married to First Sight,
Speaker 3: that one in.
Speaker 5: Particular has had some real duds on that show that
Speaker 5: has caused a lot of unsafe moments for women on
Speaker 5: the show.
Speaker 3: I remember Married a First Site season twelve, iconic season,
Speaker 3: but they had somebody who was like expecting a child
Speaker 3: with somebody else. He was emotionally manipulative, he was a narcissist.
Speaker 3: We've sat on our show that in order for you
Speaker 3: to get cast, we think that you should have references
Speaker 3: like a job. So they should be able to call
Speaker 3: your most recent exes and they should be able to
Speaker 3: speak highly of you, and if they don't, then you
Speaker 3: can't get on the show.
Speaker 1: That's interesting because you want a positive environment, But does
Speaker 1: it ruin the drama?
Speaker 4: No?
Speaker 3: If you especially if like a love is blind situation
Speaker 3: where you're not seeing the person and then maybe you
Speaker 3: see yours been you're like, oh, he's okay, I'll work
Speaker 3: with it. And then you see that your second choice
Speaker 3: and you're really attracted to him. That's still drama.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're right, that's still drama.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 1: I've heard I don't know this to be true, so
Speaker 1: I want to be really thoughtful about saying that. But
Speaker 1: I have heard from two reality show producers of different
Speaker 1: shows that to get cast on Real Housewives, they have
Speaker 1: psychologists interview you and you have to be on the
Speaker 1: narcissism spectrum.
Speaker 2: That makes a lot of suns. That makes all the suns.
Speaker 1: I guess it's like a one through six in psychology,
Speaker 1: and you're like somewhere on the spectrum. Yeah wow, Yeah,
Speaker 1: So I just I don't want to start sprinting rumors.
Speaker 2: That definitely trucks. Yeah, and Andy said it before he's.
Speaker 1: Like heyes, we know, yeah, okay, that makes me feel
Speaker 1: better about sharing what I heard. You know, I'm a journalist,
Speaker 1: so I can't be to gossip aspects of okay. In
Speaker 1: terms of these shows that center around love, what couples
Speaker 1: make it and what don't, are there any through lines
Speaker 1: or similarities between the ones that make it?
Speaker 4: Yeah, couples who kind of like Tristan Ryan, I guess
Speaker 4: they had the privilege of happening before a world of
Speaker 4: social media, so that helped a lot. I think social media,
Speaker 4: the gossip sites, the tmzs can definitely demolish a lot
Speaker 4: of these relationships. A lot of these shows are they're
Speaker 4: they're pressure cookers, right, you gotta get married in like
Speaker 4: three weeks or run over the whole. I think the
Speaker 4: couples that keep that pressure, keep that deadline in their head.
Speaker 4: They know they're in a show, you know, they know
Speaker 4: that that's like the end goal. But they also still
Speaker 4: have some grounding in real life, which is I'm trying.
Speaker 4: It's hard to find the through line, but what this
Speaker 4: season of love is mind. For instance, there's a couple
Speaker 4: Tailor and Garrett we just finished another recording, both agreeing
Speaker 4: that They're one of the most emotionally intelligent couples we've
Speaker 4: seen in a long time on the shows. Wow, they
Speaker 4: were so yeah, they were very aware that this whole
Speaker 4: process and this whole thing is like bullshit. Let's like
Speaker 4: forget about this for a little bit. Let's just lock
Speaker 4: in and just make sure that this makes sense for
Speaker 4: us and check in every single step of the way.
Speaker 4: I think couples where you kind of see some of
Speaker 4: that little light bulb go off in their conversations with
Speaker 4: each other, or there's an acknowledgement of this being fake.
Speaker 4: This whole environment is not real. We are real people.
Speaker 2: Let's lock in.
Speaker 4: I think that's where you kind of see maybe a
Speaker 4: pattern of success among those couples. I will say too,
Speaker 4: those couples keep it the same way on social media.
Speaker 1: I think so too right, you.
Speaker 3: Won't see every element of them as a couple. Like
Speaker 3: even Lauren and Cameron. We've been falling in love with
Speaker 3: Lauren Cameron. Oh my god, I love Lauren cam for
Speaker 3: how many years? And they just now, like this week,
Speaker 3: spoke about their fertility journey. That was something that was
Speaker 3: off limits for them, that nobody was going to talk
Speaker 3: about because it was private and couples who can kind
Speaker 3: of take parts of their identity.
Speaker 1: And do that. So there was a moment in time
Speaker 1: I used to love The Bachelor. Then there was a
Speaker 1: moment in time where I paused on it because I
Speaker 1: was like, Okay, this is so bad for women, and
Speaker 1: I don't want to be purporting this. And then I
Speaker 1: was like, Danielle, get off your high hearse, and I
Speaker 1: kind of came back. I came back during Rachel's season
Speaker 1: because I cared like they made me care again, you know. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and then I was I just got bored and I
Speaker 1: was out for a while. Are there any shows that
Speaker 1: you've ever kind of boycotted because you thought, Okay, this
Speaker 1: isn't good for any X Y or Z part of me.
Speaker 4: A show that I'm contemplating right now about the boycott
Speaker 4: is Married at First Sight. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I was gonna say the same thing.
Speaker 4: And when you when you asked earlier, like, is there
Speaker 4: any show that takes it too far? That was the
Speaker 4: first show that came to my head. And I've been
Speaker 4: watching that show for a very long time.
Speaker 2: You know, it's called.
Speaker 4: Meredith First Sight. They're very obviously taking the piss out
Speaker 4: of the institution. Of marriage, so I already know what
Speaker 4: I'm signing up for. I'm there, let's do it. But
Speaker 4: just so, the past maybe five or six seasons, it's
Speaker 4: been really hard to watch the treatment of the women,
Speaker 4: the lack of safety for the women, and I just
Speaker 4: I don't know if I can do it anymore. I
Speaker 4: tried to tune in for this upcoming season Chicago, and
Speaker 4: as I'm sitting there, I'm just like, it's in my spirit.
Speaker 4: I just don't know if I want to do it.
Speaker 4: I think I've found the show that I feel like
Speaker 4: it's taking it too far and I don't want to
Speaker 4: support anymore.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Same for the exact same reason as Natasha. And it's
Speaker 3: on Lifetime, right Mardi First Sight, Yeah, which is a
Speaker 3: channel that's like geared towards women, but it's geared to
Speaker 3: a very specific woman. And so every commercial break there's
Speaker 3: at least three weight loss commercials, and that for me,
Speaker 3: as a recovering, eating disordered riddled person, you know, typical millennial, right,
Speaker 3: I have a really hard time watching it. I get
Speaker 3: really by the end of the show, I'm pretty triggered.
Speaker 1: I feel triggered by those kinds of commercials too. And
Speaker 1: a little angry.
Speaker 3: Yeah, very angry about where we've gotten how.
Speaker 2: We've got here.
Speaker 1: Yeah, totally. How do you feel about the word guilty pleasure?
Speaker 1: Because I think it's thrown around a lot with reality TV.
Speaker 4: I think of reality TV as such a significant part
Speaker 4: of pop culture. There's still not that many shows like
Speaker 4: The Bachelor that I've been on television for over twenty years,
Speaker 4: that has been creating conversation for over twenty years, right,
Speaker 4: that has people locked in every Monday eight for the
Speaker 4: past twenty years. That's something that's a significant part of
Speaker 4: the fabric of American contemporary pop culture. Right, So we
Speaker 4: can call it whatever we want. I've gotten past the
Speaker 4: feelings of feeling guilty even watching these shows, because that's
Speaker 4: justin and I talk about a lot men watch sports, nobody.
Speaker 2: Says anything to them.
Speaker 4: So I'm not gonna feel guilty for watching my trash
Speaker 4: TV or you know, quote unquote whatever people want to
Speaker 4: call it, particularly when a lot of these shows create
Speaker 4: such interesting conversation and dialogue that have us connecting with
Speaker 4: each other in a very real way, which to me
Speaker 4: is a little bit more again not to men and women,
Speaker 4: but in a more real way, more connected way than
Speaker 4: men talking about this quarterback.
Speaker 2: And what he did in this game.
Speaker 1: You know what I mean. Yeah, you're like dissecting human
Speaker 1: nature exactly. Yeah. Yeah, because of the water cooler aspect
Speaker 1: of it. Do you ever feel pressure? Like with Housewives,
Speaker 1: I keep up, but with vander pump Rules, I'm so
Speaker 1: far behind. I'm like, there's I'm just gonna end it
Speaker 1: because there's just no way I can catch us here.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel that way about Bravo.
Speaker 3: I know Natasha watches more of like other Bravo shows
Speaker 3: like The Blow Deck and Summer House. I was behind
Speaker 3: on Summer House. I had to catch up this summer like.
Speaker 2: It was a lot.
Speaker 3: But I think for Housewives fans particularly, we are really
Speaker 3: in the Housewives world. We all fancy ourselves experts of Housewives.
Speaker 1: Oh yes, right yeah, it's like really even a season.
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, So we're all so committed to us, so
Speaker 3: it's kind of hard to keep up with more than one.
Speaker 1: Housewives is so tough for me because I absolutely love it.
Speaker 1: I watch every single season. I just watched the franchises,
Speaker 1: all the franchises, I think, Okay, the only thing I
Speaker 1: missed was they did a few seasons of Dallas and
Speaker 1: I didn't watch that.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that was bad.
Speaker 1: But I was reading that thirty three percent of TV
Speaker 1: viewers have joined in on a reality TV show because
Speaker 1: they felt left out when their friends were discussing it,
Speaker 1: which is a really high percentage.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think too. I My fiance and I
Speaker 2: the other night, we're watching Boyme's World.
Speaker 3: And just like reminiscing on Friday night when you got
Speaker 3: home to watch the New Boy Means World, that's not
Speaker 3: a thing anymore unless social media is on fire the
Speaker 3: way that it can be with some of these reality shows,
Speaker 3: like the fact that Love Island was on an app
Speaker 3: and also premiered at nine o'clock at night, and you
Speaker 3: know est and everybody was in their group chat at
Speaker 3: nine oh one clicking play at the same time. Was
Speaker 3: I think a cultural phenomenon because we don't have those
Speaker 3: premiere times anymore. You have the freedom to watch it
Speaker 3: whenever you want.
Speaker 1: Yes, you're right. When things like that take over, it's
Speaker 1: so you have to wonder why. You have to at
Speaker 1: least ask why, because I mean, yes, yes, Okay. So
Speaker 1: your podcast tagline is uncovering what we can learn about
Speaker 1: modern dating and relationships from popular television does that still
Speaker 1: ring true to you? Because I think you guys have
Speaker 1: expanded beyond that, but relationships are at the core of it. Yeah.
Speaker 4: My, I guess my whole m O going in every
Speaker 4: episode is you know, we're all just not not just
Speaker 4: me and just see in our audience. We're all spending
Speaker 4: hours watching these shows, right, We're spending hours of our
Speaker 4: time consuming the show. We're on social media in the conversation, like,
Speaker 4: we're dedicating so much of our lives to these shows. Yeah,
Speaker 4: I want to see if this show can teach us anything,
Speaker 4: like I want to. I want to make some I
Speaker 4: want to bring some productivity to it, like I have
Speaker 4: to if I'm putting in this much time like I
Speaker 4: want to see. So I think, yeah, no matter. I
Speaker 4: mean me and Justine we both studied media and our
Speaker 4: undergrad like we love to do this for fun, like
Speaker 4: from an academic level, just like dissecting anything, and so
Speaker 4: for us, like we find almost the challenge of watching
Speaker 4: something deemed doom right doom and seeing what the hell
Speaker 4: we can pick up from this and what this is
Speaker 4: going to teach us, What can we what can we
Speaker 4: take into our real lives with this? So I see
Speaker 4: it as like a really fun challenge.
Speaker 1: Yeah, have you done that? Have you picked up anything
Speaker 1: from your real lives from watching and dissecting these shows?
Speaker 1: Have you implemented anything or changed any behaviors?
Speaker 4: So the first thing that comes to mind for me
Speaker 4: is last season of Golden Bachelor, there was really interesting
Speaker 4: conversations around older women feeling invisible. Joan, who's our current
Speaker 4: Golden Bachelorette, she was the woman that said as she left,
Speaker 4: and she said, I feel, you know, women my age
Speaker 4: were not really seen.
Speaker 2: We're invisible.
Speaker 4: And that hit me in a way because I had
Speaker 4: never really thought about the experience of my mom. Right,
Speaker 4: my mom, she's mother of three, she's been an empty
Speaker 4: nester for a while. Now, we flew the coop, we're
Speaker 4: living our lives, and we just kind of take for
Speaker 4: granted she's there because she's always there, right, But I
Speaker 4: remember asking her, I was like, did you hear that
Speaker 4: last night? Did you like, does that resonate with you?
Speaker 4: And it really opened up a really interesting dialogue between
Speaker 4: the two of us of her experience as my mother
Speaker 4: and as a woman of a certain age in society
Speaker 4: now where her kids are gone and now she's overlooked.
Speaker 4: So that just kind of made me that that was
Speaker 4: something that really sparked me to think differently.
Speaker 1: I've sort of learned about friendship a little bit from
Speaker 1: reality TV.
Speaker 2: Oh a Housewives watcher? That makes sense?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 4: What?
Speaker 2: Okay, so what I watch housewives.
Speaker 3: There's some housewives that I watch, like Real Housewives of
Speaker 3: Salt Lake City, where I feel like I'm watching aliens.
Speaker 3: I'm watching people on Mars, right, I don't know anybody
Speaker 3: like these people. And then there's housewives like the Real
Speaker 3: Housewives of Potomac, where I feel like I'm watching my
Speaker 3: mother and her friends close of them, like it's it's
Speaker 3: so similar. I would watch them when I was homesick
Speaker 3: when I first moved out of my parents' house.
Speaker 2: That's funny, and so.
Speaker 3: I think it's true to life for friendship for an
Speaker 3: regional sense, wherever you live closest to it probably.
Speaker 1: Feels I see what you're saying. I like that. I
Speaker 1: haven't thought about it that way.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 1: I was actually thinking when I first started watching The Bachelor,
Speaker 1: the girls were so brutal to each other, and as
Speaker 1: the seasons have gone on, I've seen women make a
Speaker 1: real effort to like make the experience about friendship and
Speaker 1: this guy, and I think it kind of shows. I've
Speaker 1: always thought pop culture holds a mairrit up to like
Speaker 1: where we are and where we're going. Yeah, that to
Speaker 1: me feels like a positive cultural change.
Speaker 4: And people love I think, particularly in our audience. You know,
Speaker 4: we really loved Golden Bachelor because of the sisterhood. It
Speaker 4: was less about him, it was more watching these girls,
Speaker 4: these older women like form friendship.
Speaker 2: Even though it's not filled with drama, we still like
Speaker 2: to watch it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, a hundred, that's interesting. Yeah. The one thing with
Speaker 1: the marriage shows I struggle with still is that, like
Speaker 1: there's this big prize, Like the idea of winning is
Speaker 1: winning the ring, winning the marriage, And I really love marriage,
Speaker 1: but there's something about the the idea of winning it
Speaker 1: that I struggle with. Mm hmm.
Speaker 3: Yeah. I remember watching Love Is Blind last season the
Speaker 3: dress fittings versus the tux fittings, and the difference in
Speaker 3: how the men were speaking to each other at the
Speaker 3: tux fittings and the women were all sobbing with incredible
Speaker 3: emotion at these tryons. And we said on our show
Speaker 3: last season that it's still because being a single woman
Speaker 3: out in the world is still in some senses dangerous.
Speaker 3: And so these mothers are so happy that they have someone,
Speaker 3: that their daughter has a partner to lean on, that
Speaker 3: their daughter has a partner to buy a house with,
Speaker 3: that your daughter has a partner to just do things
Speaker 3: with and protect you, not just physically, but in just
Speaker 3: certain sectors of American culture, it's still just dangerous to
Speaker 3: be a single woman. And for the men, they're like, man,
Speaker 3: you're a lockdown for life.
Speaker 1: It's not just the scene. I think that's brilliant. I've
Speaker 1: never thought about it that way. I thought about marriage
Speaker 1: in terms of the patriarchy, because, like you know, not
Speaker 1: to throw out all these buzzwords, but we live in
Speaker 1: the patriarchal system, and so to me, when you're a
Speaker 1: woman getting married, there is a proximity to power there
Speaker 1: because if.
Speaker 4: You're wearing a masks.
Speaker 1: But I've never thought about the safety aspect that that's
Speaker 1: really interesting.
Speaker 2: They feel like, oh, my daughter has a protector.
Speaker 1: Now. Yeah, Well, you guys have started breaking down fictional
Speaker 1: shows too. I'm coming on for a sex in the
Speaker 1: City episode, which I'm very excited about. You did Bridgerton,
Speaker 1: which was amazing. Are there any shows that you want
Speaker 1: to see more of in the future, or even shows
Speaker 1: that you guys talk about, like Behind Closed Doors, that
Speaker 1: you consider discussing on your show but haven't quite tackled yet.
Speaker 4: I don't know if we'll ever talk about it on
Speaker 4: our show. It's just so serious and I don't know
Speaker 4: how we can make it fun. But scenes of a marriage,
Speaker 4: I don't know if you've ever.
Speaker 1: Seen that show.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, I.
Speaker 1: Natashas.
Speaker 4: That is one of my favorite genres, is the demise
Speaker 4: of a marriage. Watching that is like one of my
Speaker 4: favorite things.
Speaker 1: This is my takeaway from this interview. Okay, I do
Speaker 1: some rapid fire. Are you down?
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's do it. Okay.
Speaker 1: The most underrated reality TV show everyone should go watch today.
Speaker 2: A couple of Therapy. Yeah, couple they Oh my.
Speaker 1: God, I've seen a few episodes and now your guys
Speaker 1: are making me feel like I need to.
Speaker 4: One of the best shows on televi television. And I
Speaker 4: say that so proudly and confidently. It needs to be watched.
Speaker 1: Which reality show do you relate to the most?
Speaker 2: Oh duh, Potomac.
Speaker 4: Boom there. Yeah, I feel like watching I definitely don't
Speaker 4: relate to this the most right now in my life,
Speaker 4: But watching the deck I was. I was a traveler
Speaker 4: when I was younger. I did the backpacking like it
Speaker 4: just kind of feeds that little nostalgic little egg inside
Speaker 4: of me. That's like if I wasn't married and living
Speaker 4: in the Burbs right now, just like traveling the world,
Speaker 4: so that one I hold on too, because it just
Speaker 4: keeps me connected to myself.
Speaker 1: We don't want to break down of a marriage in
Speaker 1: real life.
Speaker 2: Okay, no, no, we don't want that. We don't want that.
Speaker 1: What's something every woman should try once?
Speaker 2: Solo vacation yep, that was mine?
Speaker 1: Yeah, beach or adventure.
Speaker 4: I think you start with a beach just it's less
Speaker 4: intimidating than a more adventurous when we got to talk
Speaker 4: to people and navigate a country or whatever.
Speaker 2: So I think just start with the beach.
Speaker 3: Okay, I will say too if I can add or
Speaker 3: be different from Natasha's. I wedding dress shopped by myself,
Speaker 3: highly recommend, even just shopping.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was great. It was so good, so even.
Speaker 1: Aunts, no nobody.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yep, because you picked the man by yourself, you
Speaker 3: could do it. You should have confidence you can picture
Speaker 3: your dress by yourself.
Speaker 1: Love that so much. Okay, what's a book that you've
Speaker 1: read that that has changed your life, something you think
Speaker 1: everybody should read.
Speaker 3: Thick by Tressie McMillan Cottam is my one of my
Speaker 3: all time favorites. She's a sociologist and she has a PhD.
Speaker 3: She's a teacher in North Carolina, and she is my
Speaker 3: holy girl.
Speaker 2: Damn, I'm pressure. I've been reading Is it your Rick
Speaker 2: Ruben book? Was that a good one? I never finished it.
Speaker 4: I'm notorious for buying books and not finishing them, or
Speaker 4: reading three books at one time and never finishing any
Speaker 4: of them.
Speaker 2: I'm like one of those.
Speaker 4: But the Rick Ruben book was really interesting and got
Speaker 4: me really thinking about myself as a creator, as an artist.
Speaker 4: I've been leaning more into that side of myself since
Speaker 4: I quit my day job and been doing the podcast
Speaker 4: full time. And so for any aspiring creators or people
Speaker 4: just wanting to take that leap or afraid of thinking
Speaker 4: of themselves as a creative, I think that one was
Speaker 4: a good one.
Speaker 1: Well said, and congrats on the leap by it. You
Speaker 1: did that, Thank you?
Speaker 2: Yeah, we both did.
Speaker 1: I do card game. Okay, let's should we do this.
Speaker 1: We'll do the same question. You let me know when
Speaker 1: to stop.
Speaker 2: Stop.
Speaker 1: Ooh, this is a good one. Okay, do you fall
Speaker 1: in love easily? What is your love language?
Speaker 4: Okay, I'll start. I I don't think I fall in
Speaker 4: love easily. I met my husband at twenty nine one undone.
Speaker 4: He was my first, like real relationship. I had dated
Speaker 4: and things along the way, but I loved myself most
Speaker 4: and I wasn't willing to give up on that to
Speaker 4: settle for any old body. I fell in love really
Speaker 4: easily with him, though it moved really quickly, so once
Speaker 4: I knew it was just okay, I'm in. And my
Speaker 4: love language is quality time, and which is interesting because
Speaker 4: I'm an introvert. I'm the first to be like, all right,
Speaker 4: get out the house.
Speaker 1: I need my time.
Speaker 2: Like, but we do date night every week. If we
Speaker 2: don't go well, we're in.
Speaker 4: The house, very intentional spending time together because that's really
Speaker 4: important to me.
Speaker 2: It's just getting that good old quality. We're up each
Speaker 2: other's but look at each other's as like you know,
Speaker 2: that time.
Speaker 1: Together, Natasha. Hopefully when I get married one day, I'm
Speaker 1: gonna call you for advice.
Speaker 2: I hope I have some wisdom, though, kid, it.
Speaker 1: You think I'm saying it as a joke.
Speaker 3: I'm not.
Speaker 1: Okay, Justinea, how about you?
Speaker 3: I would say I do fall in love easily. I
Speaker 3: try to put up a real ego. I don't know
Speaker 3: if it has anything to I love to just blame
Speaker 3: my scorpio moon.
Speaker 2: On everything everything I love doing. It's so much fun.
Speaker 3: And then I'm a aquarious rising as well, so I
Speaker 3: fall hard. I also have a disdain very hard. I
Speaker 3: can like hate somebody really hard to so it goes
Speaker 3: both ways.
Speaker 4: And I am.
Speaker 3: My number one love language is gift giving. I already
Speaker 3: have my like spreadsheets going of what I'm gonna get people.
Speaker 3: Natasha just bought a new house. I already have on
Speaker 3: my list. I'm gonna get it get her.
Speaker 2: It's been great being friends with just some great gifts
Speaker 2: over the years. I will say, I love that.
Speaker 1: Does that mean that you like to give to get
Speaker 1: gifts too? Because sometimes our love language is like what
Speaker 1: we give what we all want to get?
Speaker 2: Well we want to get?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 4: I do.
Speaker 3: And actually my fiance and I he doesn't come from
Speaker 3: like a gift giving really like family or anything.
Speaker 2: So I put together a spreadsheet for him.
Speaker 4: Of all the stuff that I want to want categorize, close,
Speaker 4: make up this that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm not mad.
Speaker 3: I love it.
Speaker 1: I like a woman who knows what she wants.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 1: Yes, you guys are so much fun. I so appreciate
Speaker 1: your time. I really loved this. Oh, thank you so much.
Speaker 2: Thank you for having us. Really was looking forward to
Speaker 2: this at all. Lot of fun.
Speaker 1: Okay, you know what time it is. Today's a good
Speaker 1: day to have a good day. I'll see you next week.