WEBVTT - Whistleblowers: A very special kind of bs detector 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:02.320 Hey, folks, I want to take a minute to ask 0:00:02.360 --> 0:00:05.600 for your help. This show is a labor of love 0:00:05.680 --> 0:00:08.560 for all of us here on the team at calling BS. 0:00:08.800 --> 0:00:13.560 We debate which organizations to investigate. We carefully consider how 0:00:13.560 --> 0:00:16.479 to best tell these stories. Our goal is to create 0:00:16.480 --> 0:00:19.759 a show that exposes purpose washing and the real harm 0:00:19.800 --> 0:00:22.400 it does in the world. But we also want to 0:00:22.400 --> 0:00:24.800 create a show that's fun to listen to and serves 0:00:24.800 --> 0:00:28.520 as a practical guide for entrepreneurs and leadership teams about 0:00:28.520 --> 0:00:32.199 how to do purpose right. We're really proud of what 0:00:32.240 --> 0:00:35.680 we've made so far, and we're super excited about getting 0:00:35.720 --> 0:00:37.839 season three into production so we can share it with 0:00:37.880 --> 0:00:41.560 all of you now to the help we need. So far, 0:00:41.720 --> 0:00:46.720 we are self funded. We need a sponsor or sponsors 0:00:46.760 --> 0:00:49.800 to help us with the cost of production. But, and 0:00:49.880 --> 0:00:53.200 this is important, we feel like it would be disingenuous 0:00:53.240 --> 0:00:55.800 given the theme of the show to accept money from 0:00:55.840 --> 0:00:58.920 just anybody. It's important to us that the sponsors of 0:00:58.920 --> 0:01:02.920 this show shared of shows values. We're looking for partners 0:01:02.960 --> 0:01:07.080 who are purpose led themselves, Companies or organizations that truly 0:01:07.120 --> 0:01:10.640 walk their talk. Companies who understand the harm that purpose 0:01:10.680 --> 0:01:13.880 washing does and who understand how important it is for 0:01:13.920 --> 0:01:17.520 all of us that more companies embrace the path to purpose. 0:01:18.920 --> 0:01:21.319 If you're a part of an organization like that, or 0:01:21.400 --> 0:01:23.959 you know one that seems like a good fit, don't 0:01:23.959 --> 0:01:26.480 hesitate to drop us a line. You can reach me 0:01:26.520 --> 0:01:30.880 directly at Team Montague at Calling Bullshit podcast dot com. 0:01:30.920 --> 0:01:33.080 Thanks for listening, and let's get on with the show. 0:01:38.959 --> 0:01:45.680 When powerful organizations do wrong, who stands up for what's right? 0:01:46.160 --> 0:01:49.880 Francis how Good is thirty seven, a data scientist from Iowa. 0:01:50.400 --> 0:01:52.440 The thing I saw Facebook over and over again was 0:01:52.760 --> 0:01:56.520 there were conflicts of interest between what was good for 0:01:56.560 --> 0:01:59.840 the public and what was good for Facebook. And Facebook 0:02:00.080 --> 0:02:02.560 and over again shows to optimize for its own interests, 0:02:02.600 --> 0:02:06.680 like making more money. It's people, in most cases, just 0:02:06.880 --> 0:02:10.400 regular folks. Tyler Schultz says he quit out for Holmes 0:02:10.440 --> 0:02:14.320 and her partner, Sonny Balwani ignored his complaints about falsified 0:02:14.360 --> 0:02:16.920 research right off the bat. I realized that there's this 0:02:17.000 --> 0:02:20.840 open secret that the technology didn't really exist. So all 0:02:20.880 --> 0:02:25.040 these red flags were just piling up insiders who see 0:02:25.120 --> 0:02:29.959 something and aren't afraid to say something, even when they 0:02:30.080 --> 0:02:34.079 know it may cost them dearly Snowdon said he saw 0:02:34.280 --> 0:02:38.120 firsthand and became increasingly concerned about the reach of the 0:02:38.240 --> 0:02:41.920 n S, a electronic surveillance of innocent America. These are 0:02:41.919 --> 0:02:44.639 public issues. These are not my issues, you know, these 0:02:44.639 --> 0:02:51.239 are everybody's issues. There's a name for people like this, Whistleblowers. 0:02:58.680 --> 0:03:03.560 Welcome to Calling Bullshit, the podcast about purpose washing, the 0:03:03.639 --> 0:03:07.040 gap between what an organization says they stand for and 0:03:07.120 --> 0:03:09.760 what they actually do, and what they would need to 0:03:09.880 --> 0:03:13.400 change to practice what they preach. I'm your host, Time 0:03:13.440 --> 0:03:17.200 onto you, and I've spent over a decade helping organizations 0:03:17.320 --> 0:03:20.600 define what they stand for, their purpose and then help 0:03:20.639 --> 0:03:25.960 them to use that purpose to drive transformation throughout their business. Today, 0:03:26.000 --> 0:03:29.760 for the finale of season two, we're devoting the entire 0:03:29.880 --> 0:03:34.280 episode to a special kind of BS detector, the whistleblower. 0:03:35.080 --> 0:03:37.960 I'm speaking with three experts on the topic who will 0:03:38.000 --> 0:03:41.960 explain why these people are so important and why, rather 0:03:42.000 --> 0:03:46.040 than fearing them and shunning them, organizations should actually do 0:03:46.440 --> 0:03:59.880 everything they can to protect them. Imagine you work for 0:04:00.000 --> 0:04:03.880 a biotech company, a Silicon Valley unicorn with a charismatic 0:04:03.920 --> 0:04:07.960 founder and a ten billion dollar valuation. You work there 0:04:08.040 --> 0:04:11.040 because you believe this company is doing the right thing 0:04:11.680 --> 0:04:14.960 changing health care for the better. Plus your grandfather's on 0:04:14.960 --> 0:04:17.440 the board of directors. He's how you were introduced to 0:04:17.440 --> 0:04:21.880 the company in the first place. But one day you 0:04:21.960 --> 0:04:25.480 realize that this promising new technology that you're selling is 0:04:25.520 --> 0:04:28.599 no more complicated than a bio student running tests with 0:04:28.640 --> 0:04:33.280 a pipette, That the data you're publishing is misleading investors 0:04:33.279 --> 0:04:36.719 into thinking you have an invention that doesn't actually exist, 0:04:37.560 --> 0:04:40.800 and that the patients you're testing your technology on, some 0:04:40.920 --> 0:04:45.880 of whom have life threatening conditions, are getting inaccurate results. 0:04:47.200 --> 0:04:50.680 When you talk to your superiors, they dismiss you, and 0:04:50.720 --> 0:04:55.000 when you talk to your grandfather, he dismisses you. So 0:04:55.040 --> 0:04:58.640 what do you do. Do you just quietly quit or 0:04:58.680 --> 0:05:04.200 are you ethnically pelled to say something publicly? A jury 0:05:04.240 --> 0:05:07.960 convicted that Parinis, founder of four counts of defrauding investors yesterday. 0:05:08.279 --> 0:05:11.080 One of her former employees was the first to blow 0:05:11.080 --> 0:05:13.719 the whistle about the problems at the company. He then 0:05:13.760 --> 0:05:16.800 shared his concerns with a state regulator, and then he 0:05:16.839 --> 0:05:20.560 went to the Wall Street Journal. We all like to 0:05:20.600 --> 0:05:23.200 think will do the right thing, that when confronted with 0:05:23.240 --> 0:05:26.640 a problem that goes against our morals, we'll speak up 0:05:26.760 --> 0:05:30.000 or act. But what if calling out the bullshit means 0:05:30.279 --> 0:05:34.640 damaging your career, or your family relationships, or even your 0:05:34.680 --> 0:05:40.240 personal safety. The fact is it is definitely easier in 0:05:40.240 --> 0:05:43.560 a situation like this to just look the other way. 0:05:43.600 --> 0:05:46.560 But if you raise the issue internally and management won't 0:05:46.560 --> 0:05:50.800 address a problem, you are literally the last line of defense. 0:05:51.640 --> 0:05:55.920 We all rely on and benefit from whistleblowers who take 0:05:55.960 --> 0:06:00.680 on risks like this. Without whistleblowers, the public never have 0:06:00.839 --> 0:06:04.159 learned that therein nosis blood tests were built around a lie, 0:06:04.839 --> 0:06:08.719 or that Boeing had a toxic culture that ignored basic 0:06:08.800 --> 0:06:12.520 safety precautions, and that hundreds of people died as a 0:06:12.600 --> 0:06:17.920 direct result. Without whistleblowers speaking truth to power, it would 0:06:17.920 --> 0:06:20.360 be a lot harder to detect bs in the world. 0:06:20.920 --> 0:06:28.839 And here on the show, Francis Hogan was an important 0:06:28.920 --> 0:06:32.800 part of the very first company we covered. Her insider 0:06:32.880 --> 0:06:37.040 knowledge showed the world just how nefarious Facebook actually is. 0:06:37.920 --> 0:06:41.480 A few episodes later, we spoke with whistleblower Tarick Fancy 0:06:41.640 --> 0:06:46.599 about sustainable investing at Black Rock, and most recently, we 0:06:46.680 --> 0:06:50.440 looked into the consulting firm McKenzie with two former employees 0:06:50.520 --> 0:06:54.120 who helped us to understand the culture and the scope 0:06:54.320 --> 0:06:58.279 of BS. At one of the world's most influential companies, 0:07:00.040 --> 0:07:03.279 we rely on whistleblowers because they are a special kind 0:07:03.279 --> 0:07:08.280 of BS detector, people with inside information and the courage 0:07:08.400 --> 0:07:16.840 to go public. When whistleblowers need help, they often turn 0:07:16.880 --> 0:07:20.880 to attorneys like my first guest today, Mary Inman. Mary 0:07:20.960 --> 0:07:24.840 understands the unique challenges of coming forward because she's devoted 0:07:24.880 --> 0:07:28.960 her career to protecting people who do. She's a partner 0:07:29.000 --> 0:07:34.360 in Constantine Canon, a law firm that specializes in representing whistleblowers, 0:07:34.640 --> 0:07:37.960 and over the years, she's built up an impressive resume, 0:07:38.200 --> 0:07:42.360 defending many names you've heard of and countless others that 0:07:42.480 --> 0:07:50.120 you may not have. Mary, Welcome to the show. TI, 0:07:50.120 --> 0:07:52.400 thank you so much for having me today. It's a 0:07:52.400 --> 0:07:54.720 real honor to be on your show. It's great to 0:07:54.760 --> 0:07:57.720 have you here. So for the benefit of our listeners, 0:07:57.880 --> 0:07:59.720 let's start off with an introduction. If you could just 0:08:00.280 --> 0:08:03.320 tell folks a little bit about your background and how 0:08:03.400 --> 0:08:07.280 you found your way into being an attorney for I 0:08:07.320 --> 0:08:09.920 guess you know many of the most famous whistleblowers in 0:08:09.920 --> 0:08:12.720 the world. So um, I went to law school, like 0:08:12.760 --> 0:08:15.160 many lawyers trying to change the world. Didn't really know 0:08:15.240 --> 0:08:17.280 how I was going to do that. I did some 0:08:17.320 --> 0:08:20.480 work in the public Defender's office in law school, UM 0:08:20.560 --> 0:08:23.640 and then clerked for a couple of judges, and I 0:08:23.720 --> 0:08:26.680 just had the most amazing opportunity to drop in my lap. 0:08:26.720 --> 0:08:29.520 A friend of mine referred me to a headhunter that said, 0:08:29.560 --> 0:08:31.880 there's this little boutique law firm that's opening a San 0:08:31.920 --> 0:08:36.560 Francisco office and they specialized in representing whistleblowers. So this 0:08:36.640 --> 0:08:39.679 was like twenty four years ago, and that was a 0:08:39.800 --> 0:08:43.760 time when there really weren't whistle blowers, weren't really the 0:08:44.120 --> 0:08:46.920 esteemed place that they sit in our society today, part 0:08:46.960 --> 0:08:49.560 of every news cycle, it seems like. And I was 0:08:49.600 --> 0:08:52.280 just really really lucky. At the time I started, the 0:08:52.320 --> 0:08:56.000 Supreme Court had not even yet said that the whistleblower 0:08:56.200 --> 0:08:58.840 primary whistle blower program called the False Claim Sect something 0:08:58.880 --> 0:09:01.520 we'll talk about later today. It wasn't even held to 0:09:01.520 --> 0:09:04.880 be constitutional yet. So I remember getting advice from people saying, 0:09:05.440 --> 0:09:08.200 what you want to specialize in this one statue that 0:09:08.280 --> 0:09:11.839 the Supreme Court hasn't even said is legitimate, is constitutional? 0:09:12.400 --> 0:09:17.439 And I said, well, um, it sounds really intriguing I'm 0:09:17.440 --> 0:09:19.880 gonna roll the dice, and I did, And boy, I 0:09:19.920 --> 0:09:22.240 did I have any idea that this was going to 0:09:22.280 --> 0:09:26.040 become an amazing growth field and that the United States 0:09:26.080 --> 0:09:29.280 government in particular has come to see whistle blowers as 0:09:29.320 --> 0:09:33.200 their most effective law enforcement tool. So who are some 0:09:33.240 --> 0:09:36.160 of the folks that you have represented in your career? 0:09:36.520 --> 0:09:39.120 You know a lot of them. I do know a 0:09:39.120 --> 0:09:42.480 lot of them, and it's been an enormous privilege every 0:09:42.559 --> 0:09:44.600 day I kind of jumped out of bed to represent 0:09:44.679 --> 0:09:48.800 people who really have the intestinal fortitude and the strength 0:09:48.880 --> 0:09:51.640 to speak truth to power. So I think some of 0:09:51.640 --> 0:09:55.400 your listeners probably most familiar. Tyler Schultz says Sarani's whistle 0:09:55.400 --> 0:09:59.000 blower is one of my clients. Um. I've had a 0:09:59.120 --> 0:10:02.360 number of health air fraud whistleblowers, including a gentleman by 0:10:02.400 --> 0:10:05.040 the name of Dr James Taylor, who will be front 0:10:05.040 --> 0:10:07.360 page news in the in the New York Times soon 0:10:07.520 --> 0:10:12.439 exposing Medicare fraud by health insurers. I've also represented another 0:10:12.480 --> 0:10:16.160 gentleman by the name of Benjamin Paling, who has also 0:10:16.440 --> 0:10:19.559 shown a light on United Health Group for Medicare fraud, 0:10:19.600 --> 0:10:23.200 as well as Dr Taylor shining a light on Kaiser permanente. 0:10:23.320 --> 0:10:25.880 So there's been a huge group of them. But the 0:10:25.920 --> 0:10:28.120 one I like to talk about the most is a 0:10:28.120 --> 0:10:31.360 whistle blower that was the subject of a story in 0:10:31.400 --> 0:10:34.200 The New Yorker magazine a few years ago called The 0:10:34.200 --> 0:10:38.000 Personal Toll of whistle Blowing. His name was Dr Darren 0:10:38.000 --> 0:10:40.480 sewell Um, and he's one that I like to talk 0:10:40.480 --> 0:10:43.040 about a lot because I think he might still be 0:10:43.080 --> 0:10:45.040 with us today had he not made the choice to 0:10:45.080 --> 0:10:49.160 be a whistleblower. Tell us that story, what happened there? Yeah, 0:10:49.200 --> 0:10:51.880 So I think it's it's something that we're gonna explore. 0:10:52.040 --> 0:10:54.640 I'm I'm confident today is this idea what are the 0:10:54.679 --> 0:10:58.600 repercussions of speaking out? And I'm sure a lot of 0:10:58.760 --> 0:11:01.480 your listeners are well all aware that it can be 0:11:01.600 --> 0:11:05.120 a career defining moment, in fact that it's often considered 0:11:05.120 --> 0:11:09.400 career suicide. And so we're pretty familiar with the fact 0:11:09.400 --> 0:11:13.120 that in certain industries, particularly healthcare or defense, you may 0:11:13.200 --> 0:11:16.360 never work again if you speak out. But I think 0:11:16.400 --> 0:11:18.720 what people are less aware of, and we're becoming more 0:11:18.840 --> 0:11:23.120 sensitized too, is the psychosocial impacts of speaking out. The 0:11:23.120 --> 0:11:25.640 New England Journal of Medicine did a research study a 0:11:26.000 --> 0:11:29.120 number of years ago now that basically looked at whistlers 0:11:29.160 --> 0:11:33.520 in the pharmaceutical industry who had reported off label marketing fraud, 0:11:34.200 --> 0:11:37.040 and the study showed that the health effects were such 0:11:37.080 --> 0:11:41.479 that whistlers have higher incidences of divorce, of alcoholism, of depression. 0:11:41.920 --> 0:11:44.120 And I think so much of that comes from this 0:11:44.240 --> 0:11:47.840 really primal notion that when you speak up and speak out, 0:11:47.920 --> 0:11:51.680 you lose your tribe. You speak out against your tribe, 0:11:51.840 --> 0:11:54.960 and your tribe tends to close ranks around you, and 0:11:55.000 --> 0:12:00.840 there's really strong psychological circumstances to losing your support network. 0:12:01.280 --> 0:12:04.640 So in the case of Dr Seol, he exposed health 0:12:04.640 --> 0:12:08.640 care fraud at health Insure in Florida, and he really 0:12:08.679 --> 0:12:12.880 could never work again because of his personal situation where 0:12:12.880 --> 0:12:15.440 his daughter lived in Florida. He really couldn't just go 0:12:15.679 --> 0:12:19.800 live somewhere else. And so all the health insurers community 0:12:19.880 --> 0:12:22.160 and health care community was aware of him. And so 0:12:22.280 --> 0:12:25.439 when he would get a job interests, you know, when 0:12:25.440 --> 0:12:27.240 they called for references, all of a sudden they didn't 0:12:27.240 --> 0:12:29.559 want to talk to him again. Um, And that became 0:12:29.600 --> 0:12:33.480 a really difficult circumstance for him. Um. He actually wore 0:12:33.520 --> 0:12:37.160 a wire for the FBI on that case. So and 0:12:37.240 --> 0:12:39.600 a lot of stress that goes along with that, and 0:12:40.679 --> 0:12:43.520 you know, and he and he passed away after UM, 0:12:43.559 --> 0:12:46.880 just a long series of circumstances of not being employed. 0:12:47.520 --> 0:12:51.000 So they really do, UM put a lot on the line. 0:12:51.480 --> 0:12:53.920 And it was interesting. I wasn't aware that healthcare and 0:12:53.960 --> 0:12:59.480 defense are particularly that way. I can understand the company, uh, 0:12:59.720 --> 0:13:03.520 you know, maybe uh not being in a hurry to 0:13:03.640 --> 0:13:07.760 hire you back, but the whole industry that you're in 0:13:07.960 --> 0:13:11.120 shutting you is a completely different matter, you know what 0:13:11.160 --> 0:13:15.640 I mean. That's UM, that's that's really dire. UM. So 0:13:15.760 --> 0:13:18.679 just just before we get further into some of the 0:13:18.720 --> 0:13:22.359 impacts on the lives of whistleblowers, how do you decide 0:13:22.760 --> 0:13:25.199 how you take clients or whether you take a client 0:13:25.320 --> 0:13:28.840 or not. We represent whistle blowers under what we call 0:13:28.920 --> 0:13:32.920 the US Whistleblower Reward Programs, so that all of a 0:13:32.960 --> 0:13:36.079 sudden narrows the universe. We wish that we could represent 0:13:36.160 --> 0:13:39.760 all whistle blowers. We don't do national security whistlers, for instance, 0:13:39.760 --> 0:13:42.680 in the United States were fairly hypocritical. We're one of 0:13:42.679 --> 0:13:46.280 the most advanced societies for having this notion that in law, 0:13:46.520 --> 0:13:51.600 law enforcement settings we pay whistle blowers for information, recognizing 0:13:51.640 --> 0:13:54.360 what they're giving up by speaking out. That's when these 0:13:54.360 --> 0:13:57.560 whistle blowers are helpful and exposing fraud against the government 0:13:58.280 --> 0:14:02.200 or fraud that impact our regulatory agencies missions like the 0:14:02.320 --> 0:14:07.000 SEC fraud against investors. But when it's fraud by the government, 0:14:07.360 --> 0:14:10.720 when we have those kinds of whistlers, when they're exposing 0:14:10.760 --> 0:14:13.640 wrongdoing by the government, it's a very different setting. We 0:14:13.640 --> 0:14:16.079 don't pay whistlers. In fact, we are just as bad 0:14:16.559 --> 0:14:20.000 and medieval in terms of shooting the messenger. And so 0:14:20.480 --> 0:14:23.440 just to make sure I understand, if I blow the 0:14:23.480 --> 0:14:28.360 whistle on the government for some kind of malfeasance, there's 0:14:28.400 --> 0:14:32.360 no financial reward in that for me, which makes it 0:14:32.440 --> 0:14:35.040 very hard for you to take them on as as 0:14:35.040 --> 0:14:38.080 a client, right right, right. So one of these we 0:14:38.120 --> 0:14:40.280 do is we represent our clients. And this is something 0:14:40.280 --> 0:14:42.800 that became really apparent to me when I moved to 0:14:42.920 --> 0:14:46.160 London and sort of looked at the UK legal system 0:14:46.360 --> 0:14:48.280 is to get to the brass tacks and gets kind 0:14:48.280 --> 0:14:49.960 of boring to people. But I think it's important to 0:14:50.000 --> 0:14:52.520 understand that. Um in the United States, a lot of 0:14:52.520 --> 0:14:55.760 plane emplawyers like myself represent their clients on a contingency 0:14:55.840 --> 0:14:59.200 fee or a success fee basis, so that means we 0:14:59.280 --> 0:15:02.560 only get paid aid if we're successful in returning and 0:15:02.600 --> 0:15:07.120 helping our client get a reward that actually facilitates access 0:15:07.120 --> 0:15:09.880 to justice because in the UK they don't really like 0:15:10.040 --> 0:15:12.120 that kind of a model, and as a result, lots 0:15:12.160 --> 0:15:15.680 of whistlers and other people can't get lawyers because it's 0:15:15.800 --> 0:15:18.280 very difficult to pay you know, six hundred seven hundred 0:15:18.280 --> 0:15:21.560 dollars an hour when um, that's not within your budget. 0:15:22.120 --> 0:15:24.760 So I think that's part of it is that these 0:15:24.760 --> 0:15:27.120 bounties do, and I like, I don't like to call 0:15:27.160 --> 0:15:30.720 them bounties because they almost suggest we're pirates. Um. These 0:15:30.800 --> 0:15:35.120 these rewards and these awards go to whistleblowers to recognize 0:15:35.160 --> 0:15:38.440 what they're giving up and to entice them to undertake 0:15:38.480 --> 0:15:42.000 the risk in speaking out. But what's interesting is these 0:15:42.040 --> 0:15:44.440 programs do a lot more than just pay the whistleblowers. 0:15:44.480 --> 0:15:48.200 They actually create offices of the whistleblower. In the SEC, 0:15:48.440 --> 0:15:51.040 the CFTC, I know we're going through alphabet soup in 0:15:51.040 --> 0:15:54.760 the I r S, they actually have offices that are 0:15:54.800 --> 0:15:58.920 staffed with people who are prepared to receive information from whistleblowers. 0:15:59.280 --> 0:16:02.800 It sounds undane, but it isn't because a lot of 0:16:02.800 --> 0:16:05.840 people don't know where to bring their information, and these 0:16:05.880 --> 0:16:10.720 programs create, you know, staffed experts who are there with 0:16:10.760 --> 0:16:14.720 special forms and web portals to upload your information, and 0:16:14.760 --> 0:16:17.720 they're obligated to report back to Congress and tell them 0:16:17.840 --> 0:16:21.120 how they're doing with this whistle lower information. And that's 0:16:21.160 --> 0:16:25.000 really what's revolutionary here. It's not just that, it's it's 0:16:25.080 --> 0:16:27.560 rolling out the welcome at to whistleblowers in a way 0:16:27.960 --> 0:16:31.720 that clearly signposts where they should go and ensuring that 0:16:31.760 --> 0:16:35.840 the information that they bring is actually looked at. Yeah, 0:16:35.880 --> 0:16:40.200 that's important work. So you've touched on a little bit 0:16:40.240 --> 0:16:42.800 already in some of the stories you've told what risks 0:16:42.840 --> 0:16:47.080 whistleblowers take by deciding to shine a light on you know, 0:16:47.320 --> 0:16:51.680 let's call it organizational malfeasance. Can you talk more about 0:16:51.720 --> 0:16:54.200 those risks? You know, what are some of the other 0:16:54.360 --> 0:16:57.800 aspects of it. I can think of one other for instance, 0:16:57.880 --> 0:17:02.960 like Tyler Schultz was in a bizarre situation where his grandfather, 0:17:03.240 --> 0:17:06.280 who was the ex Secretary of State. Is that right? 0:17:06.440 --> 0:17:09.960 Is his grandfather was was also an investor in the 0:17:10.000 --> 0:17:13.400 company that Tyler worked in and on the board, I believe, 0:17:13.880 --> 0:17:19.600 and and so he risked not only, you know, terminating 0:17:19.640 --> 0:17:25.200 his relationship with the leadership of Sarais, but also with 0:17:25.320 --> 0:17:28.360 his own members of his own family, and he put 0:17:28.440 --> 0:17:31.280 a lot on the line there. I think his story 0:17:31.359 --> 0:17:33.119 is a great one to spotlight in terms of what 0:17:33.200 --> 0:17:36.320 are the effects of whistle bling that we haven't necessarily 0:17:36.440 --> 0:17:38.720 explored yet. And one of them, it's what I call 0:17:38.760 --> 0:17:41.800 the inequality of arms that a whistleblower goes against a 0:17:41.880 --> 0:17:46.200 large corporation like Saranos, which was the darling of all investors. 0:17:46.240 --> 0:17:49.359 You know, Elizabeth was on the cover of Forbes magazine. 0:17:49.960 --> 0:17:53.080 And what happens is when you sign up as an employee, 0:17:53.119 --> 0:17:57.200 you signed confidentiality agreements that often include nondisclosure and non 0:17:57.240 --> 0:18:01.160 disparagement clauses. And what happened in Tyler's case is he 0:18:01.280 --> 0:18:05.040 was visiting his grandfather and attorneys from Boy Schiller, who 0:18:05.040 --> 0:18:08.399 were representing sara No Nos, basically served him with a 0:18:08.400 --> 0:18:13.560 restraining order telling him stop violating your confidentiality agreement. UM. 0:18:13.640 --> 0:18:16.200 They had come to understand that he had been giving 0:18:16.240 --> 0:18:19.159 information to John Careyrew with the Wall Street Journal reporter 0:18:19.200 --> 0:18:22.760 who exposed it all. But what happened is his parents 0:18:22.880 --> 0:18:25.760 ended up, he's a young person at the time, ended 0:18:25.840 --> 0:18:27.840 up taking out a mortgage on their home to pay 0:18:27.840 --> 0:18:30.879 four hundred thousand dollars to pay for the attorneys to 0:18:31.000 --> 0:18:35.560 defend against this lawsuit. We're saying he violated their trade secrets, 0:18:35.560 --> 0:18:39.600 their proprietary confidentiality and agreement. And one of the most 0:18:39.640 --> 0:18:42.439 famous things that Tyler said is he said, fraud is 0:18:42.480 --> 0:18:45.639 not a trade secret, right, and that seems intuitive to 0:18:45.720 --> 0:18:48.439 all that that seems intuitive to all of us, right, 0:18:48.480 --> 0:18:50.480 But that doesn't mean that he didn't have to suffer 0:18:50.560 --> 0:18:53.720 through an immense amount of litigation in order to get 0:18:53.760 --> 0:18:56.640 that right result, which is that you know, in public policy, 0:18:56.800 --> 0:19:01.520 we want certain information to get out to law enforcement, 0:19:01.520 --> 0:19:04.640 which is what he did. So it's that these huge 0:19:04.680 --> 0:19:09.360 corporations have a corporate playbook which is to basically destroy 0:19:09.400 --> 0:19:12.520 the whistleblower. And and it's not just to silence them's 0:19:12.560 --> 0:19:16.359 to silence all the employees who are watching everyone else. Yeah, 0:19:16.400 --> 0:19:20.280 that's right, scare scare everybody else, absolutely, So you know, 0:19:20.359 --> 0:19:21.880 that's just one of the things is that they will 0:19:21.920 --> 0:19:25.040 often sue them for theft of documents. They will sue 0:19:25.080 --> 0:19:30.000 them for violations of the confidentiality agreement because they're so intent, 0:19:30.119 --> 0:19:33.480 these companies on digging up dirt with this theory that 0:19:33.560 --> 0:19:37.760 if you besmirched the whistleblower, it diverts attention from the 0:19:37.800 --> 0:19:41.280 message that the whistleblower is is giving right, We'll shoot 0:19:41.280 --> 0:19:44.600 the messenger to divert attention from the pr scandal that's 0:19:44.640 --> 0:19:49.160 happening in front of their very eyes. And unfortunately, that's 0:19:49.200 --> 0:19:52.439 that is the playbook. It makes me wonder because you know, 0:19:52.600 --> 0:19:54.680 I've worked in a bunch of companies and I'm I've 0:19:54.760 --> 0:19:58.119 signed a bunch of n d A. S Is it 0:19:58.280 --> 0:20:03.000 there should be language protecting the person signing if the 0:20:03.119 --> 0:20:10.320 company is committing fraud as as Tyler said, does that exist? Well, 0:20:10.520 --> 0:20:12.359 you have you have put your finger on one of 0:20:12.480 --> 0:20:15.080 to me, one of the best topics, which is UM. 0:20:15.119 --> 0:20:18.199 There is a marvelous whistler who is because of her 0:20:18.240 --> 0:20:21.280 experience of pinterest. Her names of Foma a Zoma. She 0:20:21.440 --> 0:20:24.600 actually broke her n d A to speak out about 0:20:24.720 --> 0:20:27.560 race and sex discrimination at pintrist. She's an African American 0:20:27.600 --> 0:20:32.520 woman UM and she actually went ahead to have two 0:20:32.640 --> 0:20:35.880 laws passed, one in California and one an Oregon called 0:20:35.880 --> 0:20:38.679 the Silence No More Act, And what they seek to 0:20:38.720 --> 0:20:44.480 do is hold those provisions unenforceable. So that's the insidious 0:20:44.520 --> 0:20:47.399 part about these provisions as a lot of people see 0:20:47.480 --> 0:20:51.399 the consequences of violating it. If they signed a severance 0:20:51.400 --> 0:20:53.600 degree with this part of a severance package and you 0:20:53.640 --> 0:20:55.479 have to give back all of that money, there can 0:20:55.520 --> 0:20:57.879 be you know, damages on top of that. So it 0:20:57.920 --> 0:21:00.960 has an enormous chilling effect of the things companies do. 0:21:01.240 --> 0:21:03.840 They've gotten hip to the fact that these whistleblowers can 0:21:03.880 --> 0:21:08.240 get rewards. They put in the separation agreement when you're signing, 0:21:08.480 --> 0:21:11.840 you know, to get your you know years severance for 0:21:11.920 --> 0:21:14.720 working there. How many years they say, I waived my 0:21:14.880 --> 0:21:18.120 right to a reward under any of the whistleblower programs, 0:21:18.119 --> 0:21:22.440 which is only shouldn't that shouldn't be legal. Yeah, well 0:21:22.480 --> 0:21:24.440 that's good. The only way it stops when it is 0:21:24.480 --> 0:21:26.960 when the SEC comes in and finds them. I was 0:21:27.000 --> 0:21:32.040 reading an article today in publication called The Information that 0:21:32.280 --> 0:21:36.080 said that reports to the SEC whistle blowing reports to 0:21:36.119 --> 0:21:42.680 the SEC are up seventy six percent in over which 0:21:42.800 --> 0:21:47.919 was already a record setting year from what do you 0:21:47.960 --> 0:21:51.560 think is causing that. What's what's going on there? Well, 0:21:51.600 --> 0:21:55.520 it's really interesting. Um, what might cause some of the 0:21:55.600 --> 0:21:58.920 numbers is that we saw during the pandemic whistle blowing 0:21:58.960 --> 0:22:02.480 just increasing across US sectors. Um, the SEC I think 0:22:02.480 --> 0:22:05.520 saw fort rise. You know, we're all speculating here, but 0:22:05.640 --> 0:22:08.320 is it because we're no longer in the workplace? You know, 0:22:08.400 --> 0:22:11.200 there was a great resignation or people feeling less attached 0:22:11.200 --> 0:22:13.919 to their employers. Are we having you know, these moments 0:22:13.920 --> 0:22:17.720 of what really matters? So I think it started very much. 0:22:17.840 --> 0:22:19.960 We have to look at the pandemic a little bit 0:22:20.160 --> 0:22:22.399 um to understand some of these numbers. But as to 0:22:22.440 --> 0:22:26.560 the SEC specifically, it's their success so um. I think 0:22:26.560 --> 0:22:29.320 it was last year they crossed the billion dollar threshold 0:22:29.320 --> 0:22:32.800 that they've paid over a billion dollars in rewards to whistleblowers. 0:22:33.880 --> 0:22:36.399 And you know, it's a very controversial topic outside the 0:22:36.440 --> 0:22:39.040 United States, and the United States were very comfortable with 0:22:39.080 --> 0:22:42.959 this idea of paying rewards to whistleblowers UM in commonwealth 0:22:43.040 --> 0:22:45.840 countries in the UK, it's anothema and a lot of 0:22:45.880 --> 0:22:48.720 that comes from very strong cultural stereotypes. I think there's 0:22:48.760 --> 0:22:51.760 a notion that Americans are mercenary and were transactional and 0:22:51.800 --> 0:22:53.520 we have to be paid to do the right thing, 0:22:53.840 --> 0:22:59.640 whereas British people do the right thing right upright, upstanding. Yeah, 0:23:00.240 --> 0:23:03.720 but those rewards say something. I mean they basically, um 0:23:04.119 --> 0:23:06.800 have a ripple effect around the globe when you pay 0:23:06.840 --> 0:23:10.280 two fifty million dollars to a whistleblower, and then that 0:23:10.359 --> 0:23:13.880 means that we really really value them. And so when 0:23:13.920 --> 0:23:17.000 we say you get ten to you know, ten to 0:23:17.040 --> 0:23:20.000 thirty percent of our recovery, we mean it regardless of 0:23:20.040 --> 0:23:24.919 what size there you know penalty was. Whistleblowers trust the 0:23:24.960 --> 0:23:29.480 American regulators because they believe we're aggressive. So international whistle 0:23:29.480 --> 0:23:32.280 blowers have a lot more faith bringing their information to 0:23:32.960 --> 0:23:35.359 US regulators because they know it won't be a feudal act. 0:23:35.480 --> 0:23:38.760 The SEC gets twelve thousand tips a year now. They 0:23:38.800 --> 0:23:42.040 come from ninety nine countries around the globe. Last year 0:23:43.400 --> 0:23:48.000 of the people receiving awards came from overseas. So it's 0:23:48.040 --> 0:23:51.000 really a beacon. Um. We always say it's like Lady 0:23:51.080 --> 0:23:56.360 Liberties torch saying give us your give us your give 0:23:56.440 --> 0:24:00.000 us your poor, you're you're tired, and your whistleblowers. I'm 0:24:00.000 --> 0:24:02.000 want to follow a thread that you you started to 0:24:02.000 --> 0:24:04.800 pull out there a little bit, which was, you know, 0:24:05.160 --> 0:24:09.600 the the results of whistle blowing. I wonder if you 0:24:09.600 --> 0:24:13.560 could talk just about any examples that you have or 0:24:13.680 --> 0:24:16.840 data that you have on whistleblowers whose actions have resulted 0:24:17.080 --> 0:24:23.040