1 00:00:08,520 --> 00:00:20,720 Speaker 1: Bodybacks with Joseph Scott Morgan. You work your entire life 2 00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:24,880 Speaker 1: trying to build something out of nothing. Hell, you even 3 00:00:24,920 --> 00:00:28,520 Speaker 1: survived World War Two as a decorated veteran of the Navy. 4 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:33,400 Speaker 1: Come home, marry your sweetheart in nineteen fifty and stayed 5 00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:36,880 Speaker 1: married for decades. And from the ground up you build 6 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:42,400 Speaker 1: restaurant franchises and you become quite successful. And after all 7 00:00:42,440 --> 00:00:45,160 Speaker 1: that time, you've built something that you can look back 8 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:47,840 Speaker 1: on with pride. You've got a family to four kids, 9 00:00:48,800 --> 00:00:51,199 Speaker 1: and then you decide to retire, and Boyd where you 10 00:00:51,280 --> 00:00:55,800 Speaker 1: retire to is a beautiful place. But that location where 11 00:00:55,880 --> 00:01:00,880 Speaker 1: Russell and Shirley Derman retired to has come a benchmark 12 00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:04,959 Speaker 1: for absolute horror, and it ends up and one of 13 00:01:04,959 --> 00:01:09,640 Speaker 1: the most notorious unsolved double homicides in the history of 14 00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:13,160 Speaker 1: the state of Georgia. Today, we're going to talk about 15 00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:20,160 Speaker 1: the Dermot Birds. I'm Joseph Scott Mourning and this is 16 00:01:20,319 --> 00:01:26,960 Speaker 1: Body Backs. Well, Jackie Howard's back here with me today. 17 00:01:27,440 --> 00:01:32,199 Speaker 1: She's the executive producer of Crime Stories Nancy Grace. Jackie, 18 00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:34,319 Speaker 1: won't you to tell us about the Dermants? Eighty eight 19 00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:37,399 Speaker 1: year old Russell Dermond and his wife, eighty seven year 20 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:41,319 Speaker 1: old Shirley Dermott, had been married for decades, as you said, Joe, 21 00:01:41,480 --> 00:01:46,200 Speaker 1: sixty eight years. They lived in Reynolds Plantation in a 22 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:50,160 Speaker 1: three thousand scriftfoot house. That's a gated community on the 23 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:53,840 Speaker 1: banks of Lake o'coney in Georgia. It's about eighty miles 24 00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:57,800 Speaker 1: southeast of Atlanta. As you said, Russell Dermand was in 25 00:01:57,880 --> 00:02:02,280 Speaker 1: the restaurant business for years. This couple was very socially 26 00:02:02,320 --> 00:02:05,520 Speaker 1: active in their community. In fact, they were supposed to 27 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:10,239 Speaker 1: attend a Kentucky Derby party and didn't show up. After 28 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:13,040 Speaker 1: several more days passed and neighbors and friends had not 29 00:02:13,160 --> 00:02:17,280 Speaker 1: heard from the Dermans, they decided to conduct their own 30 00:02:17,480 --> 00:02:20,639 Speaker 1: welfare check. They went to the home and entered through 31 00:02:20,639 --> 00:02:25,000 Speaker 1: a screen porch where Russell Derman typically watched television. Everything 32 00:02:25,040 --> 00:02:28,480 Speaker 1: seemed fine, Russell was not there. They decided to check 33 00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:31,120 Speaker 1: out the garage to look for cars, and there they 34 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:34,800 Speaker 1: found a grisom site. They discovered Russell Derman's body slumped 35 00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:38,799 Speaker 1: down behind one of the couple's corps. Shirley Derman was 36 00:02:38,919 --> 00:02:41,799 Speaker 1: nowhere to be found. Cases like this have always just 37 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:44,680 Speaker 1: absolutely sent a chill up my spine. And the reason 38 00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:50,240 Speaker 1: why is that as death investigators were always observing the 39 00:02:50,280 --> 00:02:53,120 Speaker 1: abnormal in context of the normal. Can you imagine being 40 00:02:53,160 --> 00:02:56,239 Speaker 1: a neighbor in this beautiful colic setting. I mean, these 41 00:02:56,280 --> 00:03:00,720 Speaker 1: homes are worth just an astronomical amount of money, and 42 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:02,760 Speaker 1: you walk in and you find some kind of horror 43 00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:05,000 Speaker 1: show like this, and that's what happened to this fellow 44 00:03:05,040 --> 00:03:09,760 Speaker 1: that discovered Russell Derman's remains. And you know when you 45 00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:12,960 Speaker 1: kind of set the stage when you see the Dermans home, 46 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:15,760 Speaker 1: it kind of sits up on a bluff or a 47 00:03:15,880 --> 00:03:20,480 Speaker 1: knoll overlooking beautiful lake of Coney, which is very deep. 48 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:24,440 Speaker 1: It's actually a river that's been damned up and a 49 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:27,760 Speaker 1: lot of people fish their ski big recreation area, and 50 00:03:27,919 --> 00:03:30,639 Speaker 1: you have all these multimillion dollar homes that kind of 51 00:03:30,639 --> 00:03:34,000 Speaker 1: surround this place. And the interesting thing about it, you know, 52 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:36,920 Speaker 1: when wealthy people live in areas like this, they're getting 53 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:40,120 Speaker 1: something for their money. They don't just want maybe opulence, 54 00:03:40,200 --> 00:03:43,080 Speaker 1: they don't security. And there's only one way by roads 55 00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:44,920 Speaker 1: you can get into this place, and that's a central 56 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:48,200 Speaker 1: point of access, a guard shack, if you will. When 57 00:03:48,200 --> 00:03:50,920 Speaker 1: the police were called, the first thing that they had 58 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:53,800 Speaker 1: to look at in trying to discover what happened to 59 00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:58,160 Speaker 1: this family is point of the entry. This murder did 60 00:03:58,200 --> 00:04:01,360 Speaker 1: not seem to be a raw gone wrong. There was 61 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:04,119 Speaker 1: no force to entry into the house. The house had 62 00:04:04,160 --> 00:04:07,720 Speaker 1: not been ransacked, nothing had been stolen. So what's the 63 00:04:07,760 --> 00:04:10,480 Speaker 1: first thing that you do. Well, You're you're gonna walk 64 00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:12,520 Speaker 1: around the perimeter of the place. You want to see 65 00:04:12,520 --> 00:04:15,720 Speaker 1: if anybody has knocked out windows. You know, if there's 66 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:19,520 Speaker 1: windows that are raised, for instance. You want to see 67 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:23,159 Speaker 1: if the doors the points of entry, you know, standard entry, 68 00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:25,160 Speaker 1: not windows, but you know, any kind of door. If 69 00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:27,960 Speaker 1: there's a ground level basement door that has access to 70 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:33,200 Speaker 1: the exterior, an upper main door, maybe a side door 71 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:36,360 Speaker 1: where the garage is. You want to account for those 72 00:04:36,400 --> 00:04:39,120 Speaker 1: and see if the door locks have been jemmied in 73 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:42,200 Speaker 1: any way, or if someone has actually kicked the door in, 74 00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:44,240 Speaker 1: you know, lots of times and forensics we look for 75 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:47,320 Speaker 1: things like tool marks on the door, on the door 76 00:04:47,320 --> 00:04:49,960 Speaker 1: facings and that sort of thing, or compromises of the 77 00:04:50,760 --> 00:04:53,800 Speaker 1: door knob, or maybe even footprints on the door where 78 00:04:53,839 --> 00:04:57,320 Speaker 1: someone has pounded away with their foot. We look to 79 00:04:57,320 --> 00:04:59,520 Speaker 1: see if the frame of the door is intact or 80 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:03,040 Speaker 1: is it Lendard and that happens with great frequency, but 81 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:07,040 Speaker 1: there was no indication of that at the scene, and 82 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:09,880 Speaker 1: you know, that kind of heightens the mystery here. Joe, 83 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:13,480 Speaker 1: you mentioned that there's only one way in to this 84 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:18,239 Speaker 1: gated community. Actually there's two. They could have come by water. 85 00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:22,320 Speaker 1: So if no one was noted a stranger, someone that 86 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:25,400 Speaker 1: was out of place coming in the gated community, does 87 00:05:25,480 --> 00:05:28,440 Speaker 1: that mean then that they came by water And how 88 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:32,880 Speaker 1: does that impact an investigation? Yeah, I think it's quite possible. 89 00:05:32,920 --> 00:05:35,839 Speaker 1: A matter of fact, I think there's a high probability 90 00:05:35,240 --> 00:05:40,400 Speaker 1: that that's how this home was accessed, because there's no indication, 91 00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:45,320 Speaker 1: there's no investigative marks along the way where they say 92 00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:47,599 Speaker 1: that there is a specific vehicle that drove up to 93 00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:50,159 Speaker 1: this house. And think about coming in by boat. You 94 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:52,480 Speaker 1: can do it kind of stealthily. You know, maybe you're 95 00:05:52,560 --> 00:05:55,600 Speaker 1: running your engine, for instance, out in the open water, 96 00:05:55,640 --> 00:05:57,480 Speaker 1: but then you cut it and you begin to paddle in. 97 00:05:58,080 --> 00:06:00,360 Speaker 1: If you've got a couple of people manning the boat, 98 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:05,400 Speaker 1: that's certainly easy to accomplish. So you're not going to 99 00:06:05,520 --> 00:06:08,800 Speaker 1: necessarily leave as much evidence behind. There's obviously not going 100 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:11,520 Speaker 1: to be tire tracks left behind, you can get access 101 00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:15,800 Speaker 1: to the dock. If it's dark outside, you can move 102 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:19,880 Speaker 1: with great stealth to gain access and listen. If you're 103 00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:22,000 Speaker 1: inside the house and you don't hear a car pull up, 104 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:25,560 Speaker 1: you're completely taken unawares. No boat's not going to make 105 00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:28,200 Speaker 1: a lot of noise if the engine is killed before 106 00:06:28,200 --> 00:06:30,560 Speaker 1: you arrive at the dock and you just kind of 107 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:33,640 Speaker 1: glide in there, you secure the boat, you step off 108 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:35,800 Speaker 1: the boat, and you've got this evil intent in mind. 109 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:39,000 Speaker 1: But you know it's like the old adage, why do 110 00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:42,480 Speaker 1: bank robbers rob the bank? Well, that's because that's where 111 00:06:42,480 --> 00:06:45,120 Speaker 1: the money is. And when you see a home like 112 00:06:45,279 --> 00:06:48,159 Speaker 1: this that you can easily see when you're driving down 113 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:50,960 Speaker 1: the main channel of this lake, you can actually look 114 00:06:51,040 --> 00:06:52,760 Speaker 1: up there and see it, and wouldn't it be a 115 00:06:52,839 --> 00:06:56,359 Speaker 1: plumb prize And they think, hey, I bet those people 116 00:06:56,400 --> 00:06:59,880 Speaker 1: have money there or whatever the motivation was behind it. 117 00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:03,000 Speaker 1: But I tell you this, just like we said, there 118 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:06,360 Speaker 1: was no signs of forced injury. Nothing's missing out of 119 00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:09,440 Speaker 1: the home, and for me, that's a huge red flag. 120 00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:14,120 Speaker 1: So unless there is evidence left at the dock, the 121 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:17,520 Speaker 1: dock was rammed, somebody was hurt, and there was blood 122 00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:20,600 Speaker 1: because there is water and dirt. You know, you're gonna 123 00:07:20,640 --> 00:07:24,360 Speaker 1: have mud, somebody may have stepped into the shoreline. So 124 00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:28,320 Speaker 1: in absence of all of those things, Joe, it would 125 00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:33,160 Speaker 1: seem that you are reliant then on either eyewitnesses or 126 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:37,920 Speaker 1: video witnesses. Yeah, and then even more peripheral to that, 127 00:07:38,280 --> 00:07:42,280 Speaker 1: you know, you would be relying upon earwitnesses as well. 128 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:44,000 Speaker 1: And that's something that people don't think about a lot. 129 00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:46,760 Speaker 1: You know, what did you hear you know, at that 130 00:07:46,840 --> 00:07:50,280 Speaker 1: particular point in time? You know, because I mean how 131 00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:52,440 Speaker 1: many how many times have we heard stories about people 132 00:07:52,440 --> 00:07:55,360 Speaker 1: that are killed and someone that didn't actually see it. 133 00:07:55,640 --> 00:07:58,400 Speaker 1: They'll say, hey, I heard gunshots, all right, or I 134 00:07:58,480 --> 00:08:01,560 Speaker 1: heard somebody screaming, you know, or I heard a car 135 00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:05,640 Speaker 1: pull up. So many times that's a that's a point 136 00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:10,480 Speaker 1: that we can return to. But the most essential factor 137 00:08:10,560 --> 00:08:13,840 Speaker 1: involved in this is that even if it's something that 138 00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:17,360 Speaker 1: you see, or if it's something that you hear, at 139 00:08:17,360 --> 00:08:19,760 Speaker 1: what point in time did you hear it? Because, as 140 00:08:19,800 --> 00:08:22,640 Speaker 1: you know, the most valuable commodity that we have in 141 00:08:22,720 --> 00:08:30,960 Speaker 1: forensic investigations is in fact minutes, seconds, hours, days, weeks, months. 142 00:08:31,080 --> 00:08:34,400 Speaker 1: That time element is what we deal in that's our currency, 143 00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:36,520 Speaker 1: if you will. So you have to be able to 144 00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:38,800 Speaker 1: match it up. And to this point there's there's not 145 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:42,000 Speaker 1: You don't have either one of these things. You know. 146 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:46,640 Speaker 1: The first time that there's an indication that something is 147 00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:49,520 Speaker 1: up other than the fact that they didn't attend this 148 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:54,120 Speaker 1: Kentucky Derby party is the fact that this gentleman walked 149 00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:57,200 Speaker 1: in the house and he found Russell Durham there lying 150 00:08:57,240 --> 00:09:00,160 Speaker 1: on the floor in his garage. I did that. The 151 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:05,400 Speaker 1: fact that earwitnesses as you call them, set the timeline, 152 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:08,920 Speaker 1: does it really give you anything else? Because if they 153 00:09:08,920 --> 00:09:12,120 Speaker 1: did not hear anyone screaming, they can say, oh, I 154 00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:14,600 Speaker 1: heard a boat, but you're on a lake. What does 155 00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:16,599 Speaker 1: that really tell you? Yeah, it's like living next to 156 00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:19,520 Speaker 1: the highway, you know, oh I heard a car. Really wow, 157 00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:21,960 Speaker 1: that's really going to be useful. You know, it's I'm 158 00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:23,880 Speaker 1: not trying to be snarky, but it's just it's just 159 00:09:23,960 --> 00:09:27,120 Speaker 1: the fact that you know, you got as you put 160 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:28,960 Speaker 1: you know, you got boats running around all the time, 161 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:32,079 Speaker 1: people nightfish. You know, if this is when this event occurred, 162 00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:34,360 Speaker 1: you know, it wouldn't be anything to hear, you know, 163 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 1: some guy in a in a bass boat and running 164 00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:39,319 Speaker 1: up and down the lake, you know, and those engines 165 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:42,240 Speaker 1: are quite loud. But if it was something smaller, say 166 00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:45,000 Speaker 1: like a tiny skiff with a smaller boat motor, or 167 00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:47,120 Speaker 1: they had an electric motor, that you're not going to 168 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:50,319 Speaker 1: hear at all. You know, that goes back to this 169 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:54,920 Speaker 1: issue of stealth. So you're really left at at you know, 170 00:09:55,320 --> 00:09:58,120 Speaker 1: with this case, you're really left as an investigator scratching 171 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:00,240 Speaker 1: your head saying, I don't have any kind of whiitness 172 00:10:00,280 --> 00:10:02,440 Speaker 1: at all to these events. The only thing that is 173 00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:08,440 Speaker 1: really left behind are these forensics. You know, what are 174 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:10,880 Speaker 1: the bodies telling us? What is the scene telling us? 175 00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:12,920 Speaker 1: And we've already you know, kind of talk about the scene. 176 00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:15,520 Speaker 1: Now there's no signs or forced entry or struggle. You know, 177 00:10:15,559 --> 00:10:17,840 Speaker 1: we say that all the time on the news and whatnot, 178 00:10:17,920 --> 00:10:20,560 Speaker 1: and we say it in our reports as well, you know, 179 00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:22,400 Speaker 1: because it's one of the things that we look for. 180 00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:25,760 Speaker 1: If we have some kind of horrific crime that has 181 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:27,720 Speaker 1: taken place, we want to know, well, was there a 182 00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:30,760 Speaker 1: fight that ensued, you got toppled furniture? Do you have 183 00:10:30,840 --> 00:10:33,480 Speaker 1: anything here that really gives us an indication that there 184 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:37,880 Speaker 1: was some kind of problem that had happened where they 185 00:10:37,960 --> 00:10:43,800 Speaker 1: taken unawares, for instance, where they compliant in this particular case. 186 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:47,320 Speaker 1: And you know, so the investigators don't really have a 187 00:10:47,400 --> 00:10:49,040 Speaker 1: lot to work on it. And I think that that's 188 00:10:49,040 --> 00:10:51,600 Speaker 1: the reason that this case is still unsolved to this day. 189 00:10:51,679 --> 00:10:55,240 Speaker 1: Jackie and the things that we're talking about right now, Joe, 190 00:10:55,559 --> 00:10:59,079 Speaker 1: the entry from the water, the lack of evidence, the earwitnesses, 191 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:06,120 Speaker 1: the video witness are so significant because Russell Derman is dead, 192 00:11:06,559 --> 00:11:11,520 Speaker 1: but Shirley Derman is missing. Yeah, that's the case. And 193 00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:15,079 Speaker 1: of course, if you're an investigator and look, they were 194 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:18,880 Speaker 1: able to size up pretty quickly from the neighbors and witnesses. 195 00:11:18,920 --> 00:11:20,760 Speaker 1: You know, these two are a pair. You know, you 196 00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:23,680 Speaker 1: generally don't see one without the other. They go around, 197 00:11:23,760 --> 00:11:26,480 Speaker 1: he said, they're very social. They have friends that live 198 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:29,400 Speaker 1: in this community. I think that Shirley was involved in bridge. 199 00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:32,640 Speaker 1: Russell used to play golf, but he had stopped doing 200 00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:34,240 Speaker 1: that and he didn't really fish. They got rid of 201 00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:37,600 Speaker 1: their boat, so he's in that home, she's in that 202 00:11:37,679 --> 00:11:41,200 Speaker 1: home when they go out. You know, they're generally together. 203 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:46,040 Speaker 1: They are a couple. So that's that's indicative of the lifestyle. 204 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:47,920 Speaker 1: You know, that they had led and it gives you 205 00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:52,480 Speaker 1: the ideas from a behavior standpoint of what you would 206 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:55,640 Speaker 1: expect in this kind of dynamic, in this environment, that 207 00:11:55,720 --> 00:11:59,440 Speaker 1: they were probably there together whenever this horrific thing took place. 208 00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:03,120 Speaker 1: But when the investigators showed up, they're working assumption at 209 00:12:03,160 --> 00:12:06,120 Speaker 1: that moment time is yeah, we have we have mister 210 00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:09,560 Speaker 1: Derman deceased here in the garage, but Shirley is nowhere 211 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:12,360 Speaker 1: to be found. And we go back to this theme. 212 00:12:12,640 --> 00:12:15,839 Speaker 1: You know what I'd mentioned this, This house is big. 213 00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:18,760 Speaker 1: It's three thousand square foot home that's occupied by two 214 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:23,320 Speaker 1: people in a very, very wealthy area. Your default position, 215 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:26,360 Speaker 1: all of a sudden is, well, maybe somebody snatched her. 216 00:12:26,920 --> 00:12:30,079 Speaker 1: Maybe they've kidnapped her and taken off with her. And 217 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:33,400 Speaker 1: but if that's the case, there's nobody falling us. There's 218 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:37,000 Speaker 1: no letters, there's no note left behind to say that 219 00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:40,840 Speaker 1: these are our ransom demands. That's not happening. All they 220 00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:44,280 Speaker 1: know is that she is seemingly just vanished into thin air. 221 00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:09,960 Speaker 1: When you have no witnesses, sometimes the dead have to 222 00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:13,040 Speaker 1: be relied upon to bear witness and give testimony to 223 00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:15,280 Speaker 1: all that remains. And in this case, all we had 224 00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:20,080 Speaker 1: was Russell Dermant's body. We've talked about the complexities of 225 00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:23,920 Speaker 1: this investigation already with no sign of struggle. But Joe, 226 00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:26,479 Speaker 1: what we do have is a body in the garage, 227 00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:32,520 Speaker 1: Russell Derman. Joe Russell was decapitated. His head has never 228 00:13:32,559 --> 00:13:36,079 Speaker 1: been found. How do we do this investigation? It begs 229 00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:39,520 Speaker 1: so many questions, Jackie. You know, when you begin to 230 00:13:39,559 --> 00:13:42,640 Speaker 1: think about a body, apps and a head, you know, 231 00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:45,960 Speaker 1: first off, what's the rationale? And I think that for 232 00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:49,240 Speaker 1: many people, investigators included, when you look at a case 233 00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:52,240 Speaker 1: like this, you think that you've got to some type 234 00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:56,679 Speaker 1: of psychopathic madman that's running around the countryside. And that's 235 00:13:56,760 --> 00:14:00,600 Speaker 1: kind of our default position because it's such a horrific act. However, 236 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:04,400 Speaker 1: that's not always the case when it comes to the 237 00:14:04,480 --> 00:14:08,240 Speaker 1: dismemberment of remains or partial dismemberment in this case. Remember, 238 00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:10,840 Speaker 1: his head is the only part of his body that 239 00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:15,040 Speaker 1: is missing. Everything else is intact. And with Russell's remains, 240 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:19,960 Speaker 1: there was evidence, at least in my mind, after reading 241 00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:25,000 Speaker 1: and reviewing the autopsy reports that his head was taken, 242 00:14:25,560 --> 00:14:27,240 Speaker 1: I think that we need to check this box first. 243 00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:29,920 Speaker 1: His head was taken postmortem. Of course, we have any 244 00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:34,360 Speaker 1: mortum and postmortem post mortem means after death. And the 245 00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:39,000 Speaker 1: reason I think that is that per the information that 246 00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:41,600 Speaker 1: was relayed from the friends of pathologists, there or no 247 00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:44,480 Speaker 1: what we refer to as focal areas of hemorrhage in 248 00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:48,680 Speaker 1: the tissue of the neck. And also it's interesting to 249 00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:52,400 Speaker 1: note that when the investigators got to the scene and 250 00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:56,120 Speaker 1: they saw his body that at the scene it has 251 00:14:56,160 --> 00:15:00,600 Speaker 1: been consistently described that there was only a ton bit 252 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:05,600 Speaker 1: of blood that was immediately adjacent to what was remaining 253 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:09,520 Speaker 1: of his neck. Now, if this had been say an 254 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:13,360 Speaker 1: event where they had taken a knife or some sharp 255 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:18,480 Speaker 1: object and cut Russell Derman's throat on the way to 256 00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:22,160 Speaker 1: a decapitation, we do know this that there would have 257 00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:25,680 Speaker 1: been blood everywhere. You say why, the reason is is 258 00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:29,040 Speaker 1: that we've discussed before on body backs, how vascular the 259 00:15:29,040 --> 00:15:31,760 Speaker 1: head is. It requires a tremendous amount of blood and 260 00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:34,520 Speaker 1: you would have to go through You'd have to go 261 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:38,160 Speaker 1: through the juggler veins, you'd have to go through the 262 00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:42,360 Speaker 1: carotid arteries, all the while the heart is pumping until 263 00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:45,120 Speaker 1: of course life ceases. But all the while you're just 264 00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:49,480 Speaker 1: you will have an area that's literally flooded with blood. 265 00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:53,920 Speaker 1: That's not the case. So whoever did this, whoever did this, 266 00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:58,600 Speaker 1: took time with his remains and took his head off. 267 00:15:59,040 --> 00:16:03,520 Speaker 1: And if at home, will kind of consider their spine, 268 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:08,760 Speaker 1: their neck in particular the vertebral bodies that support our neck, 269 00:16:09,480 --> 00:16:11,320 Speaker 1: if you will go from the base of your skull. 270 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:14,480 Speaker 1: That's C one, C two, C three, C four, C 271 00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:20,120 Speaker 1: five count down. And his head was removed at the 272 00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:26,840 Speaker 1: C five level, and the doctors described that they went 273 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:30,720 Speaker 1: all the way through all of the tissue, the soft 274 00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:34,200 Speaker 1: tissue again with no hemorrhage. And they have apparently, and 275 00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:38,480 Speaker 1: this is important, transsected the C five verebra. And when 276 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:41,360 Speaker 1: they say transected, that means that they didn't go through 277 00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:44,520 Speaker 1: the disc, they actually cut through bone. And from an 278 00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:50,479 Speaker 1: evidentially standpoint, that's very important, Jackie. Why so at autopsy, 279 00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:54,560 Speaker 1: one of the things that's done when you have any 280 00:16:54,640 --> 00:16:59,680 Speaker 1: kind of dismemberment case is that, as horrible as it 281 00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:03,880 Speaker 1: is to be part of an investigation like this, you 282 00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:06,840 Speaker 1: as a forensic scientist, you have a particular skill set 283 00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:09,320 Speaker 1: that you can bring to bear that can actually identify 284 00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:13,679 Speaker 1: what the instrument was that brought about this decapitation. And 285 00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:16,480 Speaker 1: it's important because they said that the C five was 286 00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:19,080 Speaker 1: actually transsected, so that means that you're going to have 287 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:24,239 Speaker 1: marks on the bone. So anybody that's listening to this, 288 00:17:24,320 --> 00:17:25,560 Speaker 1: if you have a saw in your home, I want 289 00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:27,240 Speaker 1: you to think about the way the teeth look on 290 00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:29,840 Speaker 1: saw or even a serrated knife. You know, they have 291 00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:33,600 Speaker 1: a very specific pattern. And even if a saw or 292 00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:37,439 Speaker 1: serrated knife is made by the same manufacturer, that pattern 293 00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:40,480 Speaker 1: is going to change over the course of the use 294 00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:42,960 Speaker 1: of that instrument. It will slightly change and it will 295 00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:48,520 Speaker 1: make the signature, the tool mark signature left behind unique 296 00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:52,920 Speaker 1: to that particular instrument. So at autopsy I can almost 297 00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:57,920 Speaker 1: guarantee what they had done is where that bone was transsected, 298 00:17:57,960 --> 00:18:00,240 Speaker 1: that C five Keep that in mind, C five fifth 299 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:05,720 Speaker 1: cervical vertebra. They would have completely dissected out the remainder 300 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:10,040 Speaker 1: of that C five vertebra and then they took it 301 00:18:10,359 --> 00:18:14,159 Speaker 1: and they placed it into a container with what we 302 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:18,440 Speaker 1: call formulan. A formuline is kind of like formaldehyde. It's 303 00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:21,359 Speaker 1: a preservative, and they're going to hang on to that. Jackie. 304 00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:24,000 Speaker 1: Let me tell you why, because at some point in time, 305 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:27,960 Speaker 1: if they're able to find out who perpetrated this crime 306 00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:30,960 Speaker 1: or getting wind of it. If they can put their 307 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:37,040 Speaker 1: hands on that tool that they took his head off with, 308 00:18:38,359 --> 00:18:40,439 Speaker 1: they can have a tool market examiner look at that 309 00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:44,080 Speaker 1: remaining bone and compare that to the instrument that was 310 00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:47,840 Speaker 1: used by these perpetrators to decapitate Russell Dermot. Okay, I 311 00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:51,600 Speaker 1: got two very specific questions, were you, Joe, First, what 312 00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:55,760 Speaker 1: is transsected? When you hear this term transsected, trans means 313 00:18:55,920 --> 00:19:01,080 Speaker 1: going across, So they're actually cutting across the bone almost 314 00:19:01,119 --> 00:19:03,840 Speaker 1: if you think about sawing a piece of wood, Okay, 315 00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:06,000 Speaker 1: you're not going to cut it lengthwise, You're going to 316 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:09,560 Speaker 1: cut it across the grain, essentially. And if you'll just 317 00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:13,360 Speaker 1: imagine that whoever was doing this, whoever was doing this, 318 00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:19,000 Speaker 1: was essentially sawing more than likely on the back of 319 00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:22,399 Speaker 1: the neck because you get you get quicker access to 320 00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:25,879 Speaker 1: those bony prominences back there that support and hold it 321 00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:29,080 Speaker 1: literally hold the head in place. So you want to 322 00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:31,560 Speaker 1: be able to take the head off at that point 323 00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:34,199 Speaker 1: because you can remove it and then do whatever it 324 00:19:34,280 --> 00:19:36,560 Speaker 1: is that you plan on doing with Okay, my second 325 00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:40,040 Speaker 1: question is, as you were talking about the C one two, three, four, 326 00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:42,760 Speaker 1: and five, I'm reaching back to the back of my 327 00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:46,000 Speaker 1: head in my neck trying to feel and figure out 328 00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:48,520 Speaker 1: what you're talking about. What should I be feeling? How 329 00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:51,160 Speaker 1: am I going to identify and know what you're talking about? Here? 330 00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:54,840 Speaker 1: It walk me through knowing where that is. So our 331 00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:57,959 Speaker 1: head is actually supported. And I think we've mentioned this 332 00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:00,440 Speaker 1: before on other episodes, but our head is actually supported 333 00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:05,840 Speaker 1: by c one otherwise known as the Atlas. And people 334 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:08,880 Speaker 1: that don't know what the Atlas is, it's it refers 335 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:12,760 Speaker 1: back to Greek mythology. I think one of the earliest 336 00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:16,640 Speaker 1: entities within Greek mythology who was Atlas. And you see 337 00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:20,399 Speaker 1: these images of this gigantic man holding up the earth 338 00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:23,800 Speaker 1: on his back, and he's the Atlas, He's the supporter. 339 00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:28,240 Speaker 1: So see one actually works as a support body. It 340 00:20:28,359 --> 00:20:31,120 Speaker 1: supports our head. I'm not going to be able to 341 00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:35,679 Speaker 1: feel see one correct. Now. Well, if you go up 342 00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:38,560 Speaker 1: and you press tightly enough, you can go up to 343 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:41,000 Speaker 1: the base of your skull, the very base where your 344 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:45,520 Speaker 1: skull connects onto onto the spine, and if you press 345 00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:48,119 Speaker 1: hard enough, you can actually feel it right there. But 346 00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:52,040 Speaker 1: you need to count down essentially approximately every two inches. 347 00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:54,520 Speaker 1: You're going to come to a new vertebral body. So 348 00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:56,720 Speaker 1: and that's kind of a you know, I'm kind of 349 00:20:56,720 --> 00:20:58,720 Speaker 1: a big guy, so I'm kind of moving down the 350 00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:01,880 Speaker 1: back of my neck right now. I'm counting down one 351 00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:05,040 Speaker 1: and a half to two inches every moment, and you 352 00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:07,360 Speaker 1: can feel because there's a little depression that's where your 353 00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:11,240 Speaker 1: disk actually sits. So you get down from one to two, 354 00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:14,120 Speaker 1: two to three, three to four, four to five, you're 355 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:16,480 Speaker 1: right on top of it. So what the doctor is 356 00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:18,720 Speaker 1: saying is that instead of going through that kind of 357 00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:21,280 Speaker 1: depressed soft area where our disc is, people here about 358 00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:24,400 Speaker 1: getting a slip disc. It's kind of cartilaginist. That's softer 359 00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:30,880 Speaker 1: than the bone. This individual that cut through Russell Derman's 360 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:34,760 Speaker 1: neck actually went through a bony prominence, you know, actually 361 00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:38,960 Speaker 1: transected or cut into the bone. And they made a 362 00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:42,359 Speaker 1: big mistake when they did that because every time they 363 00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:47,600 Speaker 1: would drag that saw across that specific area, the teeth 364 00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:50,200 Speaker 1: of whatever this instrument is, and they've never been very 365 00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:54,679 Speaker 1: specific about it, is leaving behind definitive markings on the 366 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:57,840 Speaker 1: surface of that molle so microscopically, if you can get 367 00:21:57,840 --> 00:22:02,399 Speaker 1: your hands on whatever bladed was that generated this and 368 00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:05,439 Speaker 1: compare it microscopically to those marks that are left on 369 00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:08,439 Speaker 1: the bone. You can have a tie back. The question 370 00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:10,800 Speaker 1: is can they put that instrument into the hands of 371 00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:15,119 Speaker 1: an individual. And it's not just the specific instrument, but 372 00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:20,480 Speaker 1: it's also it's also a class or family of instruments. Say, 373 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:22,080 Speaker 1: for instance, they can look at and say, well, this 374 00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:25,520 Speaker 1: wasn't a limb saw, this was a carpenter saw, or 375 00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:28,360 Speaker 1: this was a hack saw, or for all I know, 376 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:33,560 Speaker 1: it could be a circular saw. But with that, it's 377 00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:36,720 Speaker 1: another question that's asked because even when you're sawing, even 378 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:40,040 Speaker 1: when you're doing this, this would have left behind quite 379 00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:42,800 Speaker 1: a bit of blood just in this action, and not 380 00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:45,359 Speaker 1: just that, but bone, dust, tissue, that sort of thing. 381 00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:48,440 Speaker 1: So I really wonder if they hadn't placed him on 382 00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:50,879 Speaker 1: something in order to facilitate this, like a piece of 383 00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:53,640 Speaker 1: cloth or shirts or something like that, and then gathered 384 00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:56,800 Speaker 1: things up and took that with them as well, because remember, 385 00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:02,520 Speaker 1: his head's missing, Jackie, so is a bone joe regardless 386 00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:04,679 Speaker 1: of where it is in the body. The bones in 387 00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:09,000 Speaker 1: the neck, the C one, C two are smaller just 388 00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:11,920 Speaker 1: in general from the size and we've talked about it 389 00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:16,600 Speaker 1: linked dismemberment. About how really difficult it is to do that. 390 00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:19,320 Speaker 1: Is it any different when you're trying to do it 391 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:21,240 Speaker 1: at the neck? You know, I would opine that it's 392 00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:25,360 Speaker 1: probably a bit more simple because if you're doing it posteriorly, 393 00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:27,639 Speaker 1: which we all know now because we've talked about this 394 00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:32,760 Speaker 1: on body bags, anatomically posterior means from the rear, okay, 395 00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:37,760 Speaker 1: the backside, and so the as I stated earlier, when 396 00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:40,120 Speaker 1: you begin to kind of fill your cervical spine, it's 397 00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:42,679 Speaker 1: very close to the surface. It's not like, say, for instance, 398 00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:44,720 Speaker 1: if we went to the leg, to the upper leg 399 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:48,720 Speaker 1: where the femur is our big thigh bone. You gotta 400 00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:50,920 Speaker 1: get through a lot of soft tissue to get down 401 00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:53,120 Speaker 1: to the femur. I mean a lot, and it's a 402 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:56,240 Speaker 1: mess when you do that. But in the cervical region, 403 00:23:56,920 --> 00:24:00,800 Speaker 1: those bony prominences are those those bony structures in there 404 00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:03,639 Speaker 1: are very very close. Now I can tell you this. 405 00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:06,399 Speaker 1: You were talking about differences in bone. There will be 406 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:11,800 Speaker 1: bone density issues because every bone has a structure in 407 00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:14,320 Speaker 1: and of itself. But if you were to take a 408 00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:19,200 Speaker 1: look at bone microscopically, bone is bone, you know you're 409 00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:21,560 Speaker 1: going to see it. You can't necessarily pick a point 410 00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:24,440 Speaker 1: of origin. I'm sure that there are some pathology types 411 00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:26,760 Speaker 1: and anatomy types that would probably argue with me on that, 412 00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:30,960 Speaker 1: But for our purposes here, bone is in fact bone, 413 00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:33,760 Speaker 1: it's just can you get access to it? And this 414 00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:35,480 Speaker 1: is more important. Do you have the tools and the 415 00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:39,000 Speaker 1: knowledge to be able to pull this off? To facilitate it? 416 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:42,679 Speaker 1: What's your level of nerve here? Think about that, you know, 417 00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:44,960 Speaker 1: I mean, how many people do we know that are 418 00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:49,400 Speaker 1: wandering around the general population that have actually decapitated somebody? 419 00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:52,360 Speaker 1: Just let that sink in just for a second. Now 420 00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:54,320 Speaker 1: we get so numb to all the violence in our world, 421 00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:58,360 Speaker 1: but just for a moment, pause and think about who 422 00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:02,120 Speaker 1: out there would have the nerves of stick to take 423 00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:06,680 Speaker 1: someone's life and then not flee, but stay around long 424 00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:12,840 Speaker 1: enough to acquire instruments or have instruments to take a 425 00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:16,399 Speaker 1: head off with. And I got one more interesting little 426 00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:18,679 Speaker 1: aside that I don't know how many other people have 427 00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:23,440 Speaker 1: really addressed in Russell Derman's death, and that is they 428 00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:25,520 Speaker 1: don't really have a lot of injuries to his body. 429 00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:28,040 Speaker 1: But there's one that really stands out to me that 430 00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:33,120 Speaker 1: is actually not post mortem, not post mortem, it's anti mortum, 431 00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:36,080 Speaker 1: and the doctor makes note of it. And if everybody 432 00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:42,120 Speaker 1: will take their right hand and extend it out and 433 00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:44,639 Speaker 1: consider your hand just for a moment, and look at 434 00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:47,439 Speaker 1: your index finger. That's the finger that's right adjacent to 435 00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:54,240 Speaker 1: your thumb, right there. Russell Derman sustained a crushing injury, 436 00:25:55,080 --> 00:26:00,080 Speaker 1: a crushing injury Jackie, to his right index finger. The 437 00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:03,440 Speaker 1: doctor says specifically that it is a him a ragic injury, 438 00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:07,080 Speaker 1: and that means that this is an anti mortem injury. 439 00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:10,800 Speaker 1: This can only occur in life, so that means that 440 00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:14,879 Speaker 1: his heart was still pumping and it literally crushed his finger. 441 00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:18,879 Speaker 1: Now to me, you begin to talk about things like 442 00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:23,760 Speaker 1: this and why would his finger be crushed? Well, why 443 00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:27,399 Speaker 1: would it? And I really wonder if people were not 444 00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:31,960 Speaker 1: trying to exact information from him. Maybe it was information 445 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:35,359 Speaker 1: relative to money. Do you have money here? You're going 446 00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:38,240 Speaker 1: to pay pay the price with pain here if you 447 00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:41,600 Speaker 1: don't give us the information. And they crushed his finger 448 00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:46,040 Speaker 1: in life. Imagine not painful that was. And maybe he 449 00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:49,560 Speaker 1: told him something that they didn't want to hear. And 450 00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:51,480 Speaker 1: it's at that moment that they took his life. So 451 00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:54,440 Speaker 1: there's one other fascinating piece of evidence that came out 452 00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:59,440 Speaker 1: in the police investigation into Russell Derman's death. Even though 453 00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:05,840 Speaker 1: he was to capitated, they found gunshot residue on his collar. Yeah, 454 00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:09,080 Speaker 1: they did. And how in the world are you going 455 00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:15,640 Speaker 1: to have gunshot residue deposition arising on your collar and 456 00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:17,439 Speaker 1: to say that it's on the collar? I guess, I 457 00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:20,760 Speaker 1: guess you could say that it is. It could be 458 00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:24,000 Speaker 1: any area in the collar. It could be posterior, anterior, 459 00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:27,520 Speaker 1: it could be lateral. They just simply say on the 460 00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:30,840 Speaker 1: surface of the collar. And that has led many people 461 00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:36,199 Speaker 1: to think that the rationale behind decapitating Russell Dermot was 462 00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:39,280 Speaker 1: that he had been executed, possibly with a single gunshot 463 00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:44,159 Speaker 1: wound of the head. Now this raises another problem. You 464 00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:47,640 Speaker 1: know that you have taken this guy's life, but potentially 465 00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:52,320 Speaker 1: with gunfire. You have enough smarts about you to know 466 00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:55,399 Speaker 1: if that bullet is recovered that they could in fact 467 00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:58,960 Speaker 1: pair that up with a weapon out there. So what 468 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:01,720 Speaker 1: do you do? Well, your default position is, well, the 469 00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:04,800 Speaker 1: simplest thing I can do is I can't. I certainly 470 00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:07,919 Speaker 1: can't do some type of postmortem surgery on him and 471 00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:11,240 Speaker 1: removed his bullet. We have to take his head, because 472 00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:13,720 Speaker 1: in taking his head, I know that I'm going to 473 00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:39,640 Speaker 1: take that projectile. Over the years that I've covered this case, 474 00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:43,520 Speaker 1: I've often wondered what was going on with Shirley Derman 475 00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:46,800 Speaker 1: and when the police first arrived there, she was nowhere 476 00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:51,480 Speaker 1: to be found, And it has often really bothered me. 477 00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:53,920 Speaker 1: I think about my own wife. You know, what state 478 00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:55,440 Speaker 1: of mind would she had been in? What was going 479 00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:58,840 Speaker 1: on with her? Where did they find her? Joe. Investigators 480 00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:01,520 Speaker 1: trolled the lake to no avail. They did not find 481 00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:05,280 Speaker 1: Shirley's body. They also searched the wooded area surrounding the 482 00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:09,360 Speaker 1: home no body. But on the sixteenth of May, which 483 00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:14,800 Speaker 1: was approximately a little over two weeks later, Shirley Derman's 484 00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:18,160 Speaker 1: bloated body was discovered floating on Lake o Coney by 485 00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:22,040 Speaker 1: two fishermen. It was about five miles away from the 486 00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:26,480 Speaker 1: couple's home. There are several important points in the discovery 487 00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:30,400 Speaker 1: of Shirley's body, Joe, so let's take them one by one. 488 00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:34,280 Speaker 1: First is the fact that when Shirley Dermot's body was found, 489 00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:38,800 Speaker 1: it was obvious that the intention was for her body 490 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:42,840 Speaker 1: to not be found. Two large cinder blocks had been 491 00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:48,440 Speaker 1: tied to her body that weighed thirty pounds each. Wouldn't 492 00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:54,360 Speaker 1: sixty pounds be enough to keep a body submerged. No, no, 493 00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:59,360 Speaker 1: it would not, particularly as bodies begin to blow, which 494 00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:03,800 Speaker 1: always happens. I mean, it happens. You know, people talk 495 00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:05,840 Speaker 1: about this all the time. I can confirm for you. 496 00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:12,360 Speaker 1: As decomposition develops, the body begins to swell with gas, 497 00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:15,800 Speaker 1: and when bodies, when you have bodies that are found 498 00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:21,720 Speaker 1: in water, the body essentially becomes almost like a buoy. 499 00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:25,440 Speaker 1: It will float to the top. The air, you know, 500 00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:28,840 Speaker 1: forces it up until the body in some way is 501 00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:31,920 Speaker 1: punctured and the air is released. Then it can sometimes 502 00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:35,959 Speaker 1: um re submerge at that point in time. But you know, 503 00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:39,600 Speaker 1: you mentioned important part here, Jackie, is the fact that 504 00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:45,520 Speaker 1: these blocks were with her body, and they weren't just 505 00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:49,160 Speaker 1: with her body. And this is this is ghastly, It's 506 00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:53,680 Speaker 1: absolutely ghastly. These blocks were actually secure to her ankles. 507 00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:57,160 Speaker 1: So if you think of the way a balloon looks, 508 00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:00,320 Speaker 1: where we hold a balloon byte string in our hand 509 00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:04,959 Speaker 1: and then the balloon floats high above us, that's similar 510 00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:10,680 Speaker 1: to this configuration. These blocks were actually secured to Shirley 511 00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:15,560 Speaker 1: Derman's ankles with what's referred to as paracord, and paracord 512 00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:18,560 Speaker 1: you see it in the military a lot. You also 513 00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:22,640 Speaker 1: see people that do camping securing things. It's a woven 514 00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:26,640 Speaker 1: nylon rope that has very specific pattern to it, and 515 00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:29,160 Speaker 1: it's a multicolor grope that they used, and they all 516 00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:31,760 Speaker 1: have different strengths, you know, the kind of weight that 517 00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:34,640 Speaker 1: they can support in this sort of thing. But with her, 518 00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:40,680 Speaker 1: it was bound or wrapped around her several times at 519 00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:43,239 Speaker 1: her ankles. I mean, somebody really took the time to 520 00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:46,680 Speaker 1: make sure that Buddy wasn't doing anywhere. That in itself 521 00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:51,400 Speaker 1: is very significant, Joe, because we know that the body 522 00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:55,840 Speaker 1: was found about five miles from the couple's home. The 523 00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:59,400 Speaker 1: current in this lake, even though you talked about there's 524 00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:02,200 Speaker 1: a channel in this lake that's deep, the current in 525 00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:05,480 Speaker 1: this lake, given that it is a lake, there's not 526 00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:08,120 Speaker 1: going to be a current really, So we're not talking 527 00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:12,000 Speaker 1: about the body drifting five miles from the home. So 528 00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:15,680 Speaker 1: it's very obvious that they moved her body, intending it 529 00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:18,400 Speaker 1: at this distance to never be found. Yeah, you're right, 530 00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:20,800 Speaker 1: and there's been several people that have talked about this 531 00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:24,160 Speaker 1: from the perspective of dam releases, Now, for anybody that's 532 00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:26,560 Speaker 1: never been on a lake where there's been a dam release, 533 00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:30,040 Speaker 1: it's something powerful when the water is released out of 534 00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:32,440 Speaker 1: the dam into the lower lake, which in this case 535 00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:35,640 Speaker 1: is Lake Sinclair. It says below Lake o'coney. It's a 536 00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:38,920 Speaker 1: tremendous amount of force, but it's still not enough to 537 00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:41,680 Speaker 1: drag her body with this amount of weight on it 538 00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:44,720 Speaker 1: through this channel and then deposit it where it was, 539 00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:48,960 Speaker 1: because that's even more interesting here, Jackie. That's why I 540 00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:52,760 Speaker 1: believe that whoever did this had a great familiarity with 541 00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:56,080 Speaker 1: this area, because not only was she literally five miles 542 00:32:56,240 --> 00:33:00,440 Speaker 1: down stream, but her body you had to make in 543 00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:02,480 Speaker 1: order to get to the location when she was found, 544 00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:04,920 Speaker 1: and she was found by fisherman, you had to make 545 00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:08,880 Speaker 1: a sharp right hand turn off the main channel and 546 00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:12,800 Speaker 1: go back up into a cove. Jackie. It's almost if 547 00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:15,400 Speaker 1: people at home will just kind of envision what a 548 00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:18,200 Speaker 1: fish hook looks like, and the long stem of the 549 00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:21,560 Speaker 1: fish hook is the long axis. Pretend that's the channel, 550 00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:24,320 Speaker 1: and then it goes down curves back up to the 551 00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:27,160 Speaker 1: point that point on the fish hooks where the body 552 00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:31,600 Speaker 1: would have been found. So it would, in my opinion, 553 00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:33,920 Speaker 1: at least the people would have had to have transported 554 00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:37,200 Speaker 1: her body to that location and pushed her off into 555 00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:38,880 Speaker 1: this area. I think one of the things they didn't 556 00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:42,640 Speaker 1: count on. Maybe they weren't so familiar with the depth 557 00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:48,120 Speaker 1: in this area, because when you combine the depth of 558 00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:51,680 Speaker 1: the water, maybe a damn release lack of rain. This 559 00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:54,080 Speaker 1: is you know, it's in the warm months, maybe the 560 00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:58,160 Speaker 1: water levels down just a wee bit, and then you 561 00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:02,080 Speaker 1: think about decomposition the body. Right, that's how these fishermen 562 00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:04,360 Speaker 1: noticed her in the water at that amount of time. 563 00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:08,239 Speaker 1: Can you imagine can you actually imagine going out and 564 00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:11,120 Speaker 1: you're just going fishing for the day. You're just going fishing, 565 00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:14,839 Speaker 1: and suddenly you look down in the water and here 566 00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:17,759 Speaker 1: is this poor woman's body. It's been sitting there for 567 00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:21,959 Speaker 1: a protracted period of time. It's an absolute horror show. 568 00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:26,080 Speaker 1: So then we get to the autopsy. Joe Shirley Dermond 569 00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:34,279 Speaker 1: was killed by blunt force trauma and the pathologist suspect 570 00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:37,480 Speaker 1: that it was caused by a hammer. What gave them 571 00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:41,200 Speaker 1: those indications. That's a very significant finding that the pathologist 572 00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:43,239 Speaker 1: came up with. I want to back up just a 573 00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:46,839 Speaker 1: little bit just so that folks understand meantimes, when we're 574 00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:52,200 Speaker 1: talking about homicides involving females, we always wonder if there's 575 00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:54,600 Speaker 1: a sexual component, and one of the things we look 576 00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:56,440 Speaker 1: for is to see the status of the clothing. That's 577 00:34:56,440 --> 00:34:58,640 Speaker 1: actually how we refer to it. I want you to 578 00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:02,440 Speaker 1: know that miss dr it Remains she was completely clothed. 579 00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:05,920 Speaker 1: I mean she had on everything from a floral patterned shirt. 580 00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:09,920 Speaker 1: She still had a brawn bright green pants. She had 581 00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:13,640 Speaker 1: underpants on, even had her socks on with her shoes 582 00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:16,920 Speaker 1: with orthopedic inserts. And this is kind of significant. She 583 00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:20,200 Speaker 1: actually had two breastpads in place. Did you know that 584 00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:25,160 Speaker 1: she had undergone a radical double misectomy, and so all 585 00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:27,799 Speaker 1: of that was intact. There was nothing to indicate that 586 00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:30,239 Speaker 1: this was anything of some kind of sexual nature, at 587 00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:34,760 Speaker 1: least based upon the clothing status. So when the doctor 588 00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:38,839 Speaker 1: received the body at the medical examiner's office, he did 589 00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:41,920 Speaker 1: a very very thorough job of examining her. Looked at 590 00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:47,080 Speaker 1: the knots actually her the rigging that came along with 591 00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:51,399 Speaker 1: her body being submerged actually entered entered the morgue with her. 592 00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:54,359 Speaker 1: And it's very interesting that when you begin to look 593 00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:57,560 Speaker 1: at the knots This is what we referred to in 594 00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:03,520 Speaker 1: forensics as complex not tying, which means that somebody probably 595 00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:07,239 Speaker 1: had experienced tying nuts, working with rope and that sort 596 00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:12,399 Speaker 1: of thing, and to secure because her these blocks were 597 00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:14,799 Speaker 1: still secure to her body. And one little aside I 598 00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:17,600 Speaker 1: don't think that people may be aware of. Did you 599 00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:19,880 Speaker 1: know that these blocks had actually been painted or red. 600 00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:22,640 Speaker 1: These weren't just like standard blocks that you would see 601 00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:25,200 Speaker 1: at a construction site. These things were red and I 602 00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:28,040 Speaker 1: found that absolutely fascinating, you know, So that's another big 603 00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:32,120 Speaker 1: piece of evidence. And then talking about the fatal injuries 604 00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:38,520 Speaker 1: that she had sustained, the way the doctor actually describes 605 00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:43,680 Speaker 1: these there is her death is actually related to what's 606 00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:47,880 Speaker 1: referred to specifically as blunt force trauma. But she was 607 00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:52,400 Speaker 1: struck they think, at least twice, maybe three times, with 608 00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:58,800 Speaker 1: something that had a rounded, flat leading edge. And we 609 00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:02,839 Speaker 1: talked about this just previously in one of our other 610 00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:06,359 Speaker 1: cases on bodybags. Referring to a claw hammer. You think 611 00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:10,440 Speaker 1: about the end of a hammer. A hammer, you know, 612 00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:14,319 Speaker 1: has essentially the dimensions on the business end of the 613 00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:16,920 Speaker 1: hammer where it looks. It can be the size of 614 00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:19,440 Speaker 1: save the face of a quarter. If a quarter's leaning flat. 615 00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:23,920 Speaker 1: And so what happens is when a skull is struck 616 00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:28,760 Speaker 1: with a hammer. Did you know that you can sustain 617 00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:33,719 Speaker 1: a what's referred to as a pattern injury there that 618 00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:37,360 Speaker 1: is actually a circular fracture underlying the pattern on the skin, 619 00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:43,000 Speaker 1: and it mirrors, it mirrors the oncoming the oncoming hammers 620 00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:46,160 Speaker 1: it strikes. This is referred to as a depressed skull fracture, 621 00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:50,000 Speaker 1: where the table external table of the skull actually collapses 622 00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:52,479 Speaker 1: and it drives in to the brain and of course 623 00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:57,960 Speaker 1: this leads to huge hemorrhage within the brain, and of 624 00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:00,840 Speaker 1: course the person winds up dying as a result. This particularly, 625 00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:03,720 Speaker 1: you began to think about how many times she was struck. 626 00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:07,680 Speaker 1: But this is a real act of violence. This is 627 00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:10,560 Speaker 1: not like you know, even with mister Drman, we think 628 00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:16,000 Speaker 1: about him being shot if that is in fact what 629 00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:18,879 Speaker 1: had happened. Remember we still don't have his head at 630 00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:21,640 Speaker 1: this point. That's kind of a quick way to die 631 00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:25,120 Speaker 1: when you think about it. But no, not this Jackie. 632 00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:30,600 Speaker 1: She was beaten multiple times with a hammer, her skull 633 00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:33,960 Speaker 1: actually collapsed in on her brain, and then she was 634 00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:35,719 Speaker 1: tied up post mortem. How do I know that it 635 00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:39,760 Speaker 1: was a post mortem, because where those bindings were placed 636 00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:43,840 Speaker 1: over her ankles and she was essentially anchored with this 637 00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:48,040 Speaker 1: destructure that they had created, there was no underlying hemorrhage 638 00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:51,279 Speaker 1: in those areas surrounding her her ankles. So it's not 639 00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:54,440 Speaker 1: like she had been tied up before death and been 640 00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:56,960 Speaker 1: questioned or anything like that. Her hands weren't bound, it's 641 00:38:57,040 --> 00:39:00,480 Speaker 1: just her ankles. So this was that was done after death. 642 00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:03,640 Speaker 1: They took their time in planning this, and then you 643 00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:05,960 Speaker 1: begin to think about, well, they got in a boat 644 00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:11,279 Speaker 1: and drove five mills with this poor woman's body. You know, 645 00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:14,040 Speaker 1: where did all of this take place? Did they kill 646 00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:15,960 Speaker 1: her in the yard because there was no blood in 647 00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:19,319 Speaker 1: the house. They didn't find any blood that I know of, 648 00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:21,440 Speaker 1: out in the yard. I wonder if they brought in 649 00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:25,160 Speaker 1: dogs to sniff for it. And if you put her 650 00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:28,360 Speaker 1: on a boat and you kill her on the boat, 651 00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:30,960 Speaker 1: then dogs are not necessarily going to be able to 652 00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:32,960 Speaker 1: track that area. You're not going to have any evidence 653 00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:34,200 Speaker 1: of it. Did they take her out in the middle 654 00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:35,560 Speaker 1: of the lake and beat her to death with a 655 00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:38,480 Speaker 1: hammer and then drive the other the rest of the 656 00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:42,080 Speaker 1: distance and deposit her body way down stream in this 657 00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:44,080 Speaker 1: little cove where they thought that no one would ever 658 00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:47,719 Speaker 1: find her. Of course they did, and to this day, 659 00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:49,680 Speaker 1: we still don't have any further answers. They say, who 660 00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:52,319 Speaker 1: did this? So, Joe, it's been seven years since the 661 00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:56,720 Speaker 1: Germans were murdered twenty fourteen, we are still no closer 662 00:39:56,760 --> 00:39:59,480 Speaker 1: to finding out who did this? Will we ever be? 663 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:03,120 Speaker 1: I think as time goes by, there's always a possibility. 664 00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:06,080 Speaker 1: I have to always hold out hope in any case 665 00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:08,920 Speaker 1: involving death. I mean, death is what I've always dealt 666 00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:12,600 Speaker 1: in as an investigator. But you know, at this point, 667 00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:16,640 Speaker 1: to this point, at least the forensics are done. What's 668 00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:19,240 Speaker 1: going to have to happen here is that the public 669 00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:21,200 Speaker 1: and the police are going to have to come together 670 00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:24,279 Speaker 1: on this case, this unsolved case. This is going to 671 00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:30,640 Speaker 1: be heavily reliant upon shoe leather, as they say, you know, 672 00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:34,319 Speaker 1: still pressing every lead that you possibly can. And this 673 00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:36,480 Speaker 1: is one other thing that's kind of troubling to me 674 00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:42,160 Speaker 1: is that many of the people that lived near the 675 00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:47,520 Speaker 1: Dermans were aged. And it's not like, you know, you're 676 00:40:47,560 --> 00:40:51,040 Speaker 1: around a bunch of mid twenty somethings that are going 677 00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:52,840 Speaker 1: to be around for a few years that can still 678 00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:56,880 Speaker 1: offer up information. My fear, I think is that anybody 679 00:40:56,880 --> 00:40:59,120 Speaker 1: that might have some kind of recollection as to what 680 00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:02,319 Speaker 1: they remember back all these years looking in the rear 681 00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:04,279 Speaker 1: view mirror, or they still gonna be around to give 682 00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:07,040 Speaker 1: us further information or to highlight something, or to come 683 00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:09,640 Speaker 1: up with a new nugget of data that's going to 684 00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:12,840 Speaker 1: push this case forward. And that's the one troubling aspect 685 00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:15,879 Speaker 1: with this. I'm just hoping that at some point in time, 686 00:41:16,520 --> 00:41:19,960 Speaker 1: somebody is going to say something that they probably wish 687 00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:23,560 Speaker 1: that they wouldn't have said in retrospect, but it winds 688 00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:30,640 Speaker 1: up unlocking the answers on this kid. I'm Joseph Scott 689 00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:34,040 Speaker 1: Morgan and this is Body Backs