1 00:00:00,520 --> 00:00:04,960 Speaker 1: Welcome to zero. I'm akshatrati. This week, how Argentina got 2 00:00:05,040 --> 00:00:20,520 Speaker 1: money for renewables Around the world, there's a quiet revolution 3 00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:24,200 Speaker 1: taking place. Day after day, more and more renewable energy 4 00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:28,960 Speaker 1: is being installed. And yes, it's happening in the US two, 5 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:31,880 Speaker 1: but the reality in twenty twenty five is that it's 6 00:00:31,880 --> 00:00:35,960 Speaker 1: happening faster in developing countries. Today we'll look at the 7 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:40,560 Speaker 1: transition from Argentina's perspective. A country known for its epic landscapes, 8 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:44,680 Speaker 1: superstar footballers, and endless financial troubles. 9 00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:48,440 Speaker 2: Argentina's central Bank has raised the country's interest rate to 10 00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:53,600 Speaker 2: sixty percent. President Trump welcoming his political ally Argentina's president 11 00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:56,520 Speaker 2: Javier Mile to the White House to announce a twenty 12 00:00:56,600 --> 00:00:59,120 Speaker 2: billion dollar bailout for his country. It's going to be 13 00:00:59,120 --> 00:01:02,240 Speaker 2: the biggest ever bailout that the IMF has ever issued. 14 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:06,160 Speaker 2: In fact, Argentina is to receive an extra seven billion 15 00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:08,960 Speaker 2: dollars on top of the fifty billion that has agreed 16 00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:10,240 Speaker 2: in June. 17 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:14,480 Speaker 1: Still, over the past decade, Argentina has undergone a remarkable 18 00:01:14,480 --> 00:01:18,640 Speaker 1: clean energy transformation, going from practically zero in twenty fifteen 19 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:23,320 Speaker 1: to almost eighteen percent of its electricity coming from renewables. Now, 20 00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:27,080 Speaker 1: in doing so, Argentina has overcome a challenge faced by 21 00:01:27,080 --> 00:01:32,520 Speaker 1: many countries that are considered practically uninvestable by major financial institutions. 22 00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:36,760 Speaker 1: How did this happen? To tell us that story. Joining 23 00:01:36,840 --> 00:01:39,839 Speaker 1: me on zero this week is Sebastian Kind, a former 24 00:01:39,959 --> 00:01:43,559 Speaker 1: undersecretary at the Ministry of Energy in Argentina who helped 25 00:01:43,640 --> 00:01:46,880 Speaker 1: draft the country's renewable energy law, which was passed with 26 00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:51,000 Speaker 1: the unanimous support in the Senate in twenty fifteen. Since then, 27 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:53,600 Speaker 1: he has gone on to found an organization called RELP 28 00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:57,560 Speaker 1: that helps advise governments around the world on expanding their 29 00:01:57,600 --> 00:02:01,600 Speaker 1: renewable energy sector. I wanted to ask what's made Argentina's 30 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:06,240 Speaker 1: renewables drive possible, whether President Javia Mila is still in 31 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:10,720 Speaker 1: favor of renewables, and how Argentina's relations with the US 32 00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:20,400 Speaker 1: and China are playing out. Welcome to the show, Sebastian. 33 00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:21,959 Speaker 3: Thank you very much, Absha, thanks for having me. 34 00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:24,720 Speaker 1: So Before we talk about clean energy in Argentina and 35 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:28,240 Speaker 1: your work there, I'd like to go back a century. 36 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:31,800 Speaker 1: Argentina used to be among the top ten countries in 37 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:34,679 Speaker 1: per capita income at the start of the twentieth century, 38 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:41,160 Speaker 1: richer than Italy, than Japan, than even Argentina's colonial master Spain. 39 00:02:42,360 --> 00:02:46,120 Speaker 1: Now it ranks seventieth in the world in terms of 40 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:49,240 Speaker 1: GDP per capita. What happened to Argentina. 41 00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:54,240 Speaker 3: Wow, that's an amazing question. I mean, just so for 42 00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:58,560 Speaker 3: the audience to understand, Argentina is a country almost biggers India. 43 00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:05,040 Speaker 3: We only for five million inhabitants. It was a flourished country, definitely. 44 00:03:05,160 --> 00:03:08,799 Speaker 3: That's why my grandparents came to Argentina the beginning of 45 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:13,960 Speaker 3: last century. I think what happened after that is that 46 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:19,160 Speaker 3: we had decades and decades of I would say bad management. 47 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:23,280 Speaker 3: This is my fair approach to what had happened in Argentina. 48 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:26,120 Speaker 3: I mean, the country is full of natural resources, and 49 00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:29,960 Speaker 3: that's amazing what we can do, what we could do, 50 00:03:30,160 --> 00:03:33,960 Speaker 3: and what we were able to do. But mismanagement is 51 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:37,880 Speaker 3: really taking the country in a difficult situation, I would say, 52 00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:41,600 Speaker 3: And one of the most perhaps difficult situations we have 53 00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:43,880 Speaker 3: is to deal with inflation. 54 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:49,160 Speaker 1: So a lot of Argentina's wealth was built through agriculture 55 00:03:49,320 --> 00:03:52,600 Speaker 1: in the late nineteenth early twentieth century, you know, very 56 00:03:52,640 --> 00:03:56,840 Speaker 1: fertile lands. But of course you talk about natural resources 57 00:03:56,960 --> 00:04:00,520 Speaker 1: as oil and gas, as metals. If you come to 58 00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:03,840 Speaker 1: this century, say it's been mismanagement over the past few 59 00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:08,160 Speaker 1: decades that have you know, politically or militarily that have 60 00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:12,720 Speaker 1: involved poor use of the natural resources that Argentina has. 61 00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:18,680 Speaker 1: This century specifically, though, it's been financial crisis after financial crisis. 62 00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:22,719 Speaker 1: What has it been like living through it as a citizen. 63 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:26,520 Speaker 3: It's super complex. I mean, I remember being a kid 64 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:30,560 Speaker 3: in the in the eighties and remember my father even 65 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:35,160 Speaker 3: in the in the supermarket with me telling me hurry 66 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:37,479 Speaker 3: up and get the meal before the you know, the 67 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:40,920 Speaker 3: person that was marketing prices come to the shelf where 68 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:44,240 Speaker 3: the milk were. So imagine leaving in that kind of 69 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:49,280 Speaker 3: concept and that kind of environment definitely teaches you a 70 00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:53,560 Speaker 3: lot of things and shapes you in the way we 71 00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:55,720 Speaker 3: will leave. And I think most of the things that 72 00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:58,360 Speaker 3: are done or we've done as a team in the 73 00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:02,480 Speaker 3: energy sector came through that kind of experiences that we had. 74 00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:08,240 Speaker 3: The country has i would say, very difficult times in 75 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:15,000 Speaker 3: dealing with inflation and physical deficits. So this is one 76 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:17,720 Speaker 3: of the most complicated issues in the country. I mean, 77 00:05:17,760 --> 00:05:21,400 Speaker 3: both in terms of its effects on the real economy 78 00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:24,720 Speaker 3: so the so called tax on poor right, and also 79 00:05:24,839 --> 00:05:27,320 Speaker 3: in terms of how difficult it is to solve it. 80 00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:32,320 Speaker 3: I mean, the main problem behind this physcal deficit is 81 00:05:32,680 --> 00:05:35,919 Speaker 3: I would say what the government today is aggressively tightling, 82 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:39,000 Speaker 3: but for the audience to understand, the physical deficit means 83 00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:43,120 Speaker 3: that you spend more than you received, something as simple 84 00:05:43,200 --> 00:05:46,679 Speaker 3: as that. And at national level, this has been happening 85 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:50,600 Speaker 3: for decades. So eliminating the inflation is not easy in 86 00:05:50,640 --> 00:05:55,000 Speaker 3: a country where almost half the population currently leaves below 87 00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:58,880 Speaker 3: the poverty line. The more poverty there is, the more 88 00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:02,160 Speaker 3: money you need to provide for basic needs, which generates 89 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:06,880 Speaker 3: a higher deficit. It's like how can I say, like 90 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:08,719 Speaker 3: a diverge in spiral. 91 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:12,960 Speaker 1: So you have spent most of your career in the 92 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:17,680 Speaker 1: renewable energy industry, specifically building things in Argentina since at 93 00:06:17,760 --> 00:06:21,599 Speaker 1: least two thousand and six. What drew you to renewable energy? 94 00:06:22,360 --> 00:06:26,000 Speaker 3: I'm an engineer by Trenning, and I was researching renewable 95 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:31,279 Speaker 3: resources since late nineties, and I knew that even though 96 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:35,279 Speaker 3: the country didn't have renewables almost at all at the time, 97 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:38,960 Speaker 3: that was something super important. I mean, the people in 98 00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:44,479 Speaker 3: Argentina were struggling with all the difficulties of getting fossil 99 00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:50,320 Speaker 3: fuels out of the ground while the wind was extremely 100 00:06:50,680 --> 00:06:54,760 Speaker 3: strong and super annoying for them. And I said, this 101 00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:58,799 Speaker 3: is completely crazy. I mean, and we were important fossil 102 00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:02,360 Speaker 3: fuels while at the same time the country is super 103 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:06,200 Speaker 3: rich and natural resources. So since the very beginning in 104 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:09,039 Speaker 3: my career, that was something, you know, that blowed my 105 00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:12,800 Speaker 3: mind saying, okay, we should do something to put two 106 00:07:12,920 --> 00:07:16,760 Speaker 3: things together. Right, all the economic strains that the country 107 00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:22,000 Speaker 3: was seen to combined with the use of natural resources, 108 00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:25,200 Speaker 3: we have to cut basically all the imports and all 109 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:28,720 Speaker 3: the dependency on external people. 110 00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:33,680 Speaker 1: So there is a common refrain that says energy is destiny, 111 00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:38,560 Speaker 1: that countries that command great energy resources can become great powers. 112 00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:41,800 Speaker 1: And Argentina used to have a lot of oil and 113 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:44,560 Speaker 1: gas and then it's found more oil and gas through 114 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:49,000 Speaker 1: what are called unconventional resources or shale. But you have 115 00:07:49,040 --> 00:07:52,680 Speaker 1: been focused on renewable energy because there are also renewable 116 00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:56,440 Speaker 1: resources like the wind in the sun. But getting government, 117 00:07:56,680 --> 00:07:59,680 Speaker 1: especially at a time of financial crisis and as a 118 00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:03,680 Speaker 1: result of which political crisis, to agree on a forward 119 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:08,320 Speaker 1: looking clean energy plan that requires years, if not decades 120 00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:11,840 Speaker 1: of planning is hard, and yet you've found a way 121 00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:14,200 Speaker 1: to get a renewable energy law passed in twenty fifteen. 122 00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:15,280 Speaker 1: How did that come about? 123 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:20,320 Speaker 3: The benefit is so clear. Actually, imagine that when you 124 00:08:20,360 --> 00:08:23,559 Speaker 3: build you know nation, you have the chance to build 125 00:08:23,560 --> 00:08:25,720 Speaker 3: your power system. You say, okay, we can go to 126 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:30,840 Speaker 3: build fossil fuel power plans or combined cycles or whatever. 127 00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:33,760 Speaker 3: In that sense, that's quite easy. You put little capital 128 00:08:33,920 --> 00:08:38,600 Speaker 3: and little means when you compare to other sources like renewables, 129 00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:41,240 Speaker 3: and then you feed the machine. Right, you put fossil 130 00:08:41,280 --> 00:08:45,040 Speaker 3: fuel for the decades that you want to run your facility. 131 00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:48,840 Speaker 3: But the point here is that you are sticking to 132 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:53,160 Speaker 3: something that you don't know. You are linked to the 133 00:08:53,280 --> 00:08:55,640 Speaker 3: use of resources that you don't know the price or 134 00:08:55,760 --> 00:09:01,720 Speaker 3: those volatile prices will drive your economy for the future. 135 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:06,080 Speaker 3: Instead of that, you can use your own renewable resources. 136 00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:09,439 Speaker 3: And using renewable resources means that it is true that 137 00:09:09,640 --> 00:09:11,719 Speaker 3: is capital intensive and you need to find a way 138 00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:15,400 Speaker 3: to structure them in the long term otherwise will not 139 00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:19,440 Speaker 3: be competitive. But once you can do it, you resolve 140 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:21,160 Speaker 3: many things at once. 141 00:09:21,559 --> 00:09:25,920 Speaker 1: And so you work on this renewable energy law which 142 00:09:25,960 --> 00:09:30,559 Speaker 1: has received support from all political parties. It becomes low 143 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:34,200 Speaker 1: in twenty fifteen, and yet that in itself is still 144 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:37,520 Speaker 1: not enough to actually start building renewables. You needed other 145 00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:40,760 Speaker 1: financial tools. Why was that the case. 146 00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:44,120 Speaker 3: Because imagine is that if together in this conversation we 147 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:46,000 Speaker 3: say we want to go to the moon, I mean 148 00:09:46,040 --> 00:09:48,440 Speaker 3: that's not enough. You need a rocket, right, and you 149 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:53,680 Speaker 3: need something really put in place for that trick. In 150 00:09:53,720 --> 00:09:57,079 Speaker 3: this case, the law was more than just the desire, 151 00:09:57,640 --> 00:10:00,800 Speaker 3: was a couple of interesting things putting place. And the 152 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:05,000 Speaker 3: first and the main was the political consensus for the 153 00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:07,559 Speaker 3: long term, which is not common, I would say at 154 00:10:07,559 --> 00:10:10,120 Speaker 3: all in the world, not only in Argentina. If we 155 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:12,920 Speaker 3: look at what is going on in Europe or in 156 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:16,240 Speaker 3: the States in this regard, it's pretty much the same. 157 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:20,479 Speaker 3: It's quite uncommon to have both enemies in the Congress 158 00:10:20,559 --> 00:10:24,720 Speaker 3: to vote on favor for something. So when you have 159 00:10:24,920 --> 00:10:28,960 Speaker 3: the basic things which are not simple but basic perhaps, 160 00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:31,760 Speaker 3: which is not the same, in place, then you need 161 00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:35,600 Speaker 3: to build the other things that the market requires for 162 00:10:35,679 --> 00:10:39,400 Speaker 3: this long term view. As we mentioned before, and this 163 00:10:39,520 --> 00:10:42,120 Speaker 3: is exactly what happened after the law and not within 164 00:10:42,200 --> 00:10:46,360 Speaker 3: the law. The law was good for marking the basic things, 165 00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:49,920 Speaker 3: the certain things that we needed at the time, and 166 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:52,840 Speaker 3: then someone has to get the law and put it 167 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:58,040 Speaker 3: into practice. Unfortunately, or fortunately that was me, So I 168 00:10:58,080 --> 00:11:00,480 Speaker 3: suffer about my own words. But that's another story. 169 00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:03,760 Speaker 1: So what were the financial tools that you had to 170 00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:07,439 Speaker 1: build to actually get money to build these renewable projects. 171 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:11,320 Speaker 3: Interesting, the most important thing we built is what I 172 00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:16,840 Speaker 3: always like to call the worlst case waterfall of guarantees, 173 00:11:17,640 --> 00:11:20,480 Speaker 3: which is basically a waterfall of three steps that we 174 00:11:20,559 --> 00:11:24,320 Speaker 3: decided to provide as part of the procurement program to 175 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:28,920 Speaker 3: foster the investment opportunity in the capital market. The first 176 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:32,240 Speaker 3: one was what we called the involving Energy payment guarantee, 177 00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:37,560 Speaker 3: which is like a liquidity facility or let's say many 178 00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:41,359 Speaker 3: that in the case of Argentina, the government put in 179 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:47,840 Speaker 3: an account to cover the payments of the electricity. In 180 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:51,640 Speaker 3: case the buyer of the electricity that was the independent 181 00:11:51,679 --> 00:11:57,000 Speaker 3: system operator in Argentina the case couldn't cover for whatever reason, right, 182 00:11:57,120 --> 00:12:00,600 Speaker 3: So basically we said the investors that if there's any 183 00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:05,400 Speaker 3: delay in payment, they can get the payment under date anyway. 184 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:11,720 Speaker 3: Why this is important because when you want to structure 185 00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:18,520 Speaker 3: your project in let's say project finance non recourse, as 186 00:12:18,559 --> 00:12:21,160 Speaker 3: it is one of the most common ways of structure 187 00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:24,760 Speaker 3: in these long term infrastructure projects. You need to have 188 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:30,040 Speaker 3: certainty on the payments you receive. If you believe that 189 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:33,360 Speaker 3: this will not happen along the twenty years of contract 190 00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:35,840 Speaker 3: you're about to sign, you will not get into that. 191 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:39,160 Speaker 3: So that was the first step. We said, Okay, this 192 00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:42,720 Speaker 3: is good, but it's not enough because we knew that 193 00:12:42,800 --> 00:12:46,520 Speaker 3: in the past. Of course, the country has many crisis 194 00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:50,840 Speaker 3: as you mentioned before, and we went through different difficult 195 00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:56,040 Speaker 3: situations and investors knew that. So we decided to bring 196 00:12:56,160 --> 00:13:01,559 Speaker 3: that contract, that obligation, that thing out of the payer's risk, 197 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:05,520 Speaker 3: which was again the independent system operator in Argentina like 198 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:09,800 Speaker 3: the national utility, might be into the sovereign risk. 199 00:13:10,320 --> 00:13:13,240 Speaker 1: Right, So it went from a company risk, even if 200 00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:15,440 Speaker 1: it was a state owned company, to a government risk. 201 00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:20,080 Speaker 3: Exactly why because the company might have problems to pay. 202 00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:25,880 Speaker 3: That doesn't mean that the government, the national government cannot pay, 203 00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:28,720 Speaker 3: cannot cover those obligations, right. 204 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:30,679 Speaker 1: But then you also had to go one step further 205 00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:33,600 Speaker 1: because the government also gets into trouble in Argentina and 206 00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:34,480 Speaker 1: far too frequently. 207 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:39,560 Speaker 3: Exactly in the past, the government of Argentina frequently held 208 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:44,480 Speaker 3: the currency conversions and restricted money transfers abroad, So of 209 00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:47,000 Speaker 3: course we knew that and we said, okay, but if 210 00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:51,400 Speaker 3: we want to bring international investors into the game, as 211 00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:55,680 Speaker 3: we wanted to, because of course we wanted to create 212 00:13:55,920 --> 00:14:00,240 Speaker 3: a heavy competition to get prices done and to get 213 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:03,640 Speaker 3: the best out of what we were offering, we needed 214 00:14:03,679 --> 00:14:08,440 Speaker 3: to convince international investors. And to convince international investors, you 215 00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:13,480 Speaker 3: need to provide something extra that can let them feel 216 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:18,439 Speaker 3: that once again, if something happened, the government of Argentina 217 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:22,000 Speaker 3: will not get that restriction to them and they will 218 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:25,640 Speaker 3: get the investment back. So we decided to offer a 219 00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:28,800 Speaker 3: third step guarantee is what we call the early termination 220 00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:34,840 Speaker 3: payment guarantee, which is a guarantee that we structure through 221 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:39,120 Speaker 3: a negotiation that we had with the War Bank as 222 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:44,560 Speaker 3: ultimate guarantor that offers that possibility to pay you in 223 00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:49,400 Speaker 3: the currency of your choice wherever you decide to get 224 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:53,160 Speaker 3: that non amortized value of the asset, which is basically 225 00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:55,000 Speaker 3: what the guarantee covers. 226 00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:59,440 Speaker 1: Right, So there's three layers of guarantees that help a 227 00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:04,240 Speaker 1: foreign to feel confident to put money into Argentina because 228 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:06,800 Speaker 1: there is a law that sets a clear target because 229 00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:09,920 Speaker 1: there is a payment guarantee at the company level, then 230 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:12,320 Speaker 1: there's a payment guarantee at the government level, and if 231 00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:14,440 Speaker 1: nothing else, then there's a payment guarantee coming all the 232 00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:19,960 Speaker 1: way from the World Bank. And that results in Argentina 233 00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:25,440 Speaker 1: starting to build its renewable portfolio. So before twenty fifteen, 234 00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:29,040 Speaker 1: less than two percent of Argentina's power came from renewables, 235 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:32,720 Speaker 1: and then you set a target to reach twenty percent 236 00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:36,760 Speaker 1: by twenty twenty five. Yeah, how has it worked out? 237 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:42,200 Speaker 3: Okay, this week we reach an amazing number of over 238 00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:47,720 Speaker 3: forty four percent of pick coverage in the country and 239 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:51,440 Speaker 3: we are reaching the eighteen percent average by the end 240 00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:55,680 Speaker 3: of the year, so almost in line with the crazy 241 00:15:55,720 --> 00:15:59,320 Speaker 3: ambitions that we set in the law ten years ago. 242 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:02,600 Speaker 1: At the same time, the amount of gas in the 243 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:03,960 Speaker 1: system has gone up as well. 244 00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:08,640 Speaker 3: Well. You know, Wakamorta is an interesting reservoir that we have, 245 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:12,160 Speaker 3: with the second largest shale gas reserve in the world 246 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:16,040 Speaker 3: and the fourth largest shale oil reserve in the world. 247 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:19,920 Speaker 3: But still Argentina is important in fossil fuels because the 248 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:25,160 Speaker 3: capacity we have in both in pipelines and the seasonality 249 00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:29,840 Speaker 3: of the demand cannot be fed by our own resources. 250 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:33,920 Speaker 3: So it is true that the country has a lot 251 00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:37,000 Speaker 3: of gas and a lot of oil as well. We 252 00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:41,360 Speaker 3: are exporting oil for a long time and now there 253 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:45,400 Speaker 3: are many projects to export gas in an LNG shape. 254 00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:48,320 Speaker 1: So by one count, about eleven billion dollars worth of 255 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:52,200 Speaker 1: investment has come into solar and wind projects. A lot 256 00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:56,040 Speaker 1: of that investment has come from foreign investors. What type 257 00:16:56,080 --> 00:16:57,240 Speaker 1: of foreign investors? 258 00:16:57,680 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 3: Wow, a lot of Imagine that's a lot of money. 259 00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:05,360 Speaker 3: So we have different kind of banks all over Europe, 260 00:17:05,440 --> 00:17:08,960 Speaker 3: the States, some banks in the same Latin America, some 261 00:17:09,080 --> 00:17:14,040 Speaker 3: Argentinian banks as well. We have the advice commercial banks, multilaterals, 262 00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:17,639 Speaker 3: all kinds of and in terms of the equity, we 263 00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:21,920 Speaker 3: have local companies, international companies, companies from the US, companies 264 00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:27,359 Speaker 3: from Spain, from Germany, from France, big ones like as 265 00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:33,119 Speaker 3: or Total in France or you know, big organizations, and 266 00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:36,679 Speaker 3: some I wouldn't say small ones because the rule was 267 00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:39,760 Speaker 3: clear that you need to have certain things in place 268 00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:42,520 Speaker 3: as a track record to head into this game. But 269 00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:45,760 Speaker 3: eleven billion dollars a lot of money. So investment from 270 00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:46,600 Speaker 3: all over the world. 271 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:49,720 Speaker 1: You didn't mention China, but China has had a lot 272 00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:53,199 Speaker 1: of investments also in Argentina, and we know China is 273 00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:56,720 Speaker 1: the largest maker of a lot of electricity generation or 274 00:17:56,720 --> 00:18:00,640 Speaker 1: transmission equipment. How big has the Chinese and and spin. 275 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:03,680 Speaker 3: It was important, was not the main one in terms 276 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:09,640 Speaker 3: of direct investment as power producer though, although it was significant, 277 00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:14,760 Speaker 3: and of course the solar business is mainly supplied by China, 278 00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:17,840 Speaker 3: not in Argentina but in the world. And some of 279 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:23,000 Speaker 3: the wind turbines as well, with some important turby manufacturers 280 00:18:23,119 --> 00:18:27,119 Speaker 3: working in the country not only supplying but also developing 281 00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:31,760 Speaker 3: reneable projects. So definitely important, but not the main one. 282 00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:33,399 Speaker 3: Was white scattered all around the world. 283 00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:37,000 Speaker 1: This year there's been another news about more financial problem 284 00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:40,480 Speaker 1: that Argentina is facing and Javier Mile who is the 285 00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:43,560 Speaker 1: president now, is being built out by the US. But 286 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:48,560 Speaker 1: regardless of the politics side, one thing that Scott bess In, 287 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:51,600 Speaker 1: the Secretary of Treasury in the US said is that 288 00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:55,560 Speaker 1: they are keen on supporting Argentina to get China out. 289 00:18:55,920 --> 00:18:56,640 Speaker 1: What does that mean? 290 00:18:56,880 --> 00:18:59,479 Speaker 3: Well, who knows, We should ask him. I think it's 291 00:18:59,560 --> 00:19:01,800 Speaker 3: quite over use what the US is doing in the 292 00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:04,320 Speaker 3: West in general terms and means the presence of China 293 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:08,359 Speaker 3: in Latin America, but in the world is increasing and 294 00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:12,080 Speaker 3: there is a kind of commercial war behind. But that's 295 00:19:12,119 --> 00:19:15,520 Speaker 3: in parallel to the problems that Argentina is facing today, 296 00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:19,359 Speaker 3: which is this concept that we mentioned before about ending 297 00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:22,240 Speaker 3: the fiscal deficit, which is the right move. I mean, 298 00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:26,400 Speaker 3: though it is painful because you know, many people fall 299 00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:29,760 Speaker 3: out of the system. It is unpopular to do it. 300 00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:33,359 Speaker 3: And the situation that the government has today is that 301 00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:37,280 Speaker 3: they needed someone to support them, and they found it 302 00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:38,920 Speaker 3: in the In the US. 303 00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:42,320 Speaker 1: There is an aspect of the renewable story that starts 304 00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:45,240 Speaker 1: to play out in every country where a certain amount 305 00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:48,399 Speaker 1: of solar and wind power is built, which is unique 306 00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:51,639 Speaker 1: transmission lines to make sure it is taken to the 307 00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:54,960 Speaker 1: places where it is consumed from the places where it's 308 00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:59,560 Speaker 1: being generated. China has made huge investments in transmission and 309 00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:04,680 Speaker 1: distribution of electricity in Brazil and Chile, Argentina's neighbors. Why 310 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:07,040 Speaker 1: has it not done so in Argentina where there is 311 00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:09,160 Speaker 1: clearly a lot of need for transmission. 312 00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:12,720 Speaker 3: Okay, that's perhaps a question that has not just one answer. 313 00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:16,320 Speaker 3: The main thing to understand here actually is that there's 314 00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:20,080 Speaker 3: no place in the world that transmission exists for projects 315 00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:25,080 Speaker 3: that does not exist. So you build transmission when you 316 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:28,399 Speaker 3: have the need, either because you have the demand that 317 00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:31,680 Speaker 3: is requiring that transmission or you have the supply that 318 00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:35,560 Speaker 3: in order to be deployed to be installed, you need 319 00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:38,760 Speaker 3: of course wires to get the electrons out of that 320 00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:42,960 Speaker 3: place and you know, bringing those electrons into the demand. 321 00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:45,840 Speaker 3: In the case of Argentina, at the time when I 322 00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:50,720 Speaker 3: took office, the government, the country had enough transmission, so 323 00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:55,400 Speaker 3: we didn't have to build those transmission lines. The more 324 00:20:55,480 --> 00:21:00,120 Speaker 3: you fill those spaces, of course, the more you need 325 00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:05,040 Speaker 3: to create more transmission. Today we have another thing which 326 00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:08,439 Speaker 3: is batteries, which helped us a lot in terms of 327 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:11,160 Speaker 3: the transmission need. I mean, the first thing you need 328 00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:13,320 Speaker 3: is to use as much as you can the things 329 00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:17,680 Speaker 3: you already have instead of build new infrastructure. So if 330 00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:20,280 Speaker 3: you ask me, I mean, how can you deal with 331 00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:24,080 Speaker 3: new transmission and why? And what happened? The China put 332 00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:27,480 Speaker 3: money into transmission in different markets and not in Argentina. 333 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:30,080 Speaker 3: So far we didn't need it. In the last ten years. 334 00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:33,639 Speaker 3: Now is the question of okay, how can we get 335 00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:38,720 Speaker 3: more and more not only renewables but electrons anyway out 336 00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:45,119 Speaker 3: of the places where we produce them. 337 00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:48,439 Speaker 1: After the break, I asked Sebastian whether President Milee is 338 00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:51,320 Speaker 1: still in support of renewables and whether the sector needs 339 00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:54,919 Speaker 1: more support to keep up the momentum. While I have you, 340 00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:57,600 Speaker 1: please take a moment to read and review Zero. It 341 00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:00,600 Speaker 1: helps new listeners find the show. You can review on 342 00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:04,280 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts and Spotify, and we appreciate every single one. 343 00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:23,000 Speaker 1: Thank you. Let's come to the very now, right. You 344 00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:26,000 Speaker 1: were in government trying to set this goal and then 345 00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:28,960 Speaker 1: trying to create these guarantees from twenty sixteen to twenty nineteen. 346 00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:32,600 Speaker 1: You've left government roles. Since then, there's been a bunch 347 00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:36,320 Speaker 1: of political changes in Argentina. If you look at the 348 00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:40,520 Speaker 1: renewable story post twenty seventeen, there's a rapid rise, and 349 00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:43,000 Speaker 1: yes it's reached eighteen percent by the end of this year, 350 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:46,679 Speaker 1: not quite twenty but close, but it has plateaued in 351 00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:49,680 Speaker 1: its rise over the last few years. Do you think 352 00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:53,080 Speaker 1: under Mila there is support for renewables. 353 00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:56,639 Speaker 3: I wouldn't say there's support or there's not support. In 354 00:22:56,680 --> 00:23:00,240 Speaker 3: general terms, there is a market that was built at 355 00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:04,120 Speaker 3: the time that has its own life no matter who 356 00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:09,040 Speaker 3: comes in power, unless someone want to kill it on purpose. 357 00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:11,520 Speaker 3: If you want to kill something, of course you can 358 00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:14,400 Speaker 3: do it, but you need to first of all understand 359 00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:18,080 Speaker 3: why and if you want to do that. That means 360 00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:22,639 Speaker 3: that if renewables become the cheapest option, you are killing 361 00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:26,399 Speaker 3: the cheapest option, which is not convenient for you and 362 00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:29,480 Speaker 3: your own accounts. And the deficit that we were talking about. 363 00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:33,399 Speaker 1: Yeah, the politics can sometimes overcome economics, as we are 364 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:35,640 Speaker 1: seeing in the US where they are trying to attack 365 00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:39,080 Speaker 1: what are the cheapest sources of power, even as the 366 00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:42,680 Speaker 1: country is looking to build a lot of electricity infrastructure. 367 00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:45,880 Speaker 1: But in Argentina, the twenty fifteen law itself is set 368 00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:49,240 Speaker 1: to expire this year, and that means the legal target 369 00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:52,280 Speaker 1: and the fiscal protections that you built, those might go away. 370 00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:54,480 Speaker 1: There are conversations about extending the law. 371 00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:57,800 Speaker 3: Well, those things will not go away, because there are 372 00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:00,880 Speaker 3: two things that we build here your ago. One is 373 00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:04,359 Speaker 3: what we call the purchases of the national state, which 374 00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:07,800 Speaker 3: was the renovair program, and the other one was the 375 00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:12,200 Speaker 3: what we call the corporate ppa, the corporate power purchase 376 00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:16,520 Speaker 3: agreements between large consumers and free producers in the market. 377 00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:21,920 Speaker 3: That channel is a super free market driver that is 378 00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:26,400 Speaker 3: building over a gigawatt of power every year since the beginning. 379 00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:31,840 Speaker 3: And this is not because of this government or because 380 00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:36,719 Speaker 3: of the previous one. Is because of the market rules 381 00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:39,280 Speaker 3: that were built in that sense. 382 00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:43,600 Speaker 1: But the government program also was important in getting renewables going. 383 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:48,040 Speaker 1: So what do you think happens if the government site 384 00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:52,360 Speaker 1: is not renewed and there's no new target to meet renewables? 385 00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:56,000 Speaker 1: How much do you think in the next ten years, 386 00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:59,200 Speaker 1: just based on private forces, could you build renewables? You 387 00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:02,960 Speaker 1: got to almost twenty Where does the next ten years go? 388 00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:06,880 Speaker 3: That's very interesting. The program from the government might not 389 00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:10,959 Speaker 3: be needed if the market forces as they are built 390 00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:15,280 Speaker 3: in the corporate site are strong enough. As they are, 391 00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:19,840 Speaker 3: so in my view, they were super needed at the beginning. 392 00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:24,960 Speaker 3: And you know, I'm more market oriented, so I truly 393 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:29,159 Speaker 3: believe that the market can keep on doing amazing things 394 00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:32,200 Speaker 3: in that second channel that already for a long time, 395 00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:36,879 Speaker 3: for years, have been demonstrating being super efficient in this build. 396 00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:40,640 Speaker 1: So you're making the case that, you know, maybe government 397 00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:42,760 Speaker 1: will not come through and there will be no extension, 398 00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:45,280 Speaker 1: and you know, the government anyways, and financial crises of 399 00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:48,919 Speaker 1: all sorts, but that now renewable stories and sort of 400 00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:51,800 Speaker 1: the private market space. There is the fact that it 401 00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:55,280 Speaker 1: is cheaper to build and so you'll get more momentum. 402 00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:57,199 Speaker 1: Maybe you don't need to rely on the government for 403 00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:00,199 Speaker 1: transmission lines. Maybe you can get to batteries. But that's 404 00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:03,680 Speaker 1: the case, then are you seeing a ground up desire 405 00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:07,960 Speaker 1: for these products? So take the case of Pakistan where 406 00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:11,879 Speaker 1: there's been a huge boom in solar panels on rooftops 407 00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:15,600 Speaker 1: in one year and now they're buying batteries. In Argentina 408 00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:19,080 Speaker 1: there is almost no rooftop solar less than one hundred 409 00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:23,639 Speaker 1: megawards of distributed power production. Yeah, why is there not 410 00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:27,800 Speaker 1: being a ground up desire for this clean, cheap energy 411 00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:29,879 Speaker 1: If you think markets can help. 412 00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:32,000 Speaker 3: Well, there are a couple of things here. The reason 413 00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:35,879 Speaker 3: why we don't have rooftop solar as other markets is 414 00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:39,000 Speaker 3: because we have very cheap electricity yet because it's subsidized. 415 00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:42,439 Speaker 3: So when someone is given something for free, which is 416 00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:45,440 Speaker 3: never for free, right, I mean we know it, there's 417 00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:49,240 Speaker 3: not really clear deconvenience for you to go for that. 418 00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:52,360 Speaker 3: I mean, this is going out, is facing out as 419 00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:57,240 Speaker 3: the government is making huge efforts for reflecting the real prices, 420 00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:01,440 Speaker 3: which brings another problem, which is now start charging for 421 00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:05,639 Speaker 3: the use of electricity that for decades nobody pay. So 422 00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:08,840 Speaker 3: that's another kind of concept, I would say. But in 423 00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:11,639 Speaker 3: terms of the transmission and the need for that transmission, 424 00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:14,760 Speaker 3: the transmission is of course it's something that it will 425 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:17,960 Speaker 3: be built according to the need you have, and it's 426 00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:21,200 Speaker 3: a long term infrastructure project in the same way as 427 00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:25,080 Speaker 3: many others. And that's the problem we face always in 428 00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:28,800 Speaker 3: emergent markets, and not only in Argentina, that to build 429 00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:33,199 Speaker 3: long term infrastructure you need long term rules and the 430 00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:35,679 Speaker 3: long term investors needs feeing confidence. It is. 431 00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:40,399 Speaker 1: It's true that government subsidies can distart markets. Sometimes they 432 00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:43,840 Speaker 1: are distorting markets for the reasons government chooses to, which 433 00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:46,040 Speaker 1: is to make renewable energy cheaper than it was in 434 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:50,119 Speaker 1: the past. Sometimes it does it to ensure that people 435 00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:52,920 Speaker 1: have access to energy, which is what Nigeria did whenever 436 00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:56,800 Speaker 1: subsidizing diesel that people use as generators to produce power. 437 00:27:57,359 --> 00:28:00,520 Speaker 1: But then there are also ways in which these stortions 438 00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:03,320 Speaker 1: can be fixed, and we've seen that in Nigeria when 439 00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:07,040 Speaker 1: subsidies got cut for diesel, suddenly there was a boom 440 00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:10,520 Speaker 1: for solar and so maybe in Argentina have subsidies for 441 00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:14,160 Speaker 1: electricity are cut and real prices are visible, people will 442 00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:18,280 Speaker 1: probably deploy prooftop solar to make cheap clean electricity. 443 00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:21,399 Speaker 3: We brainstormed a lot about that, and of course you 444 00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:24,560 Speaker 3: can imagine that a person that was born in the 445 00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:30,159 Speaker 3: early two thousand never almost never paid the electricity in 446 00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:35,119 Speaker 3: his life. So suddenly with the country that has fifty 447 00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:38,240 Speaker 3: percent of the people below the line of poverty, it's 448 00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:42,080 Speaker 3: not easy to say, okay, overnight, you know what, you 449 00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:44,440 Speaker 3: have to pay the electricity. But electricity it was like 450 00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:47,600 Speaker 3: the air, right, I mean a breath. Don't pay for 451 00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:52,080 Speaker 3: what a breath. So that concept is something that makes 452 00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:55,840 Speaker 3: you open the window when your room is warm up 453 00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:59,680 Speaker 3: rather than turn off the heater. Definitely is not a 454 00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:02,640 Speaker 3: few at all, I would say, but it's difficult, and 455 00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:08,680 Speaker 3: subsidies are also a way of acting in populism, and 456 00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:12,160 Speaker 3: that's something that we need to cut it. Definitely, someone 457 00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:14,080 Speaker 3: has to pay it, right, I mean the point is 458 00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:16,200 Speaker 3: who's going to pay? But this is not what have 459 00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:20,200 Speaker 3: happened in Argentina. For decades, rich people didn't pay electricity. 460 00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:23,520 Speaker 3: It's not only that the poorest didn't. So there are 461 00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:27,120 Speaker 3: a lot of cross subsidies here. So poor people are 462 00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:31,280 Speaker 3: paying the cheap electricity to the rich people, and this 463 00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:35,520 Speaker 3: is something crazy that you need to stop immediately, particularly 464 00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:39,320 Speaker 3: with the natural resources we do have. I mean, Argentina 465 00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:42,160 Speaker 3: perhaps is one of the top in terms of the 466 00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:46,640 Speaker 3: natural resources of wind or solar, everything is there. Everything. 467 00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:50,200 Speaker 3: The capacity factor, which is the measurement of how much 468 00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:52,520 Speaker 3: let's say, when you can get out of a winter 469 00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:57,680 Speaker 3: binner or a solar panel, is picking among the podium 470 00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:02,000 Speaker 3: in the world. We have we in firms that are 471 00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:06,560 Speaker 3: above sixty percent sixty five percent capacity factor, solar business 472 00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:10,200 Speaker 3: about thirty four thirty five percent, this is crazy, is 473 00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:13,920 Speaker 3: twice what you can get in Europe. And still under 474 00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:17,760 Speaker 3: that condition, the lack of possibility to structure long term 475 00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:20,720 Speaker 3: infrastructure projects, which is not only the case for renewables, 476 00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:24,840 Speaker 3: it is the case for long term infrastructure projects, highways, hospitals, 477 00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:28,840 Speaker 3: everything is killing the same country. So that's a situation 478 00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:32,000 Speaker 3: that most of emerging markets have. Can't imagine what it 479 00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:36,400 Speaker 3: means in Africa to have, you know, people paying twice 480 00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:39,600 Speaker 3: the price for their own electricity that what they can paign. 481 00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:44,880 Speaker 1: So you have, since stepping down from government role in Argentina, 482 00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:48,880 Speaker 1: have founded an organization to try and create this kind 483 00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:53,200 Speaker 1: of momentum for renewables in other parts of the world. 484 00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:56,280 Speaker 1: Can you give examples of where you've succeeded and how 485 00:30:57,000 --> 00:30:57,240 Speaker 1: you know? 486 00:30:57,360 --> 00:31:00,800 Speaker 3: First to say is that we created WELP years ago 487 00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:05,800 Speaker 3: inspired by our own experience, basically to offer others what 488 00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:09,240 Speaker 3: we would have love to have when we've been in 489 00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:14,160 Speaker 3: government and we didn't have. So we decided, under this 490 00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:17,440 Speaker 3: concept of offering others what we would have loved to have, 491 00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:21,680 Speaker 3: we decided to work across emergent markets in Southeast Asia, 492 00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:25,560 Speaker 3: in Africa, and in Latin America and the Caribbean, where 493 00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:30,680 Speaker 3: governments really need about support in designing and structuring renewables 494 00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:35,160 Speaker 3: at scale. We're working in the three regions in Southeast Asia, 495 00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:38,200 Speaker 3: in Pakistan, we've done things. In the Philippines. We work 496 00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:42,960 Speaker 3: in West Africa, in Togo, we are dealing in corporational 497 00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:47,640 Speaker 3: agreement that hopefully we will go online, with Senegal, with South Africa, 498 00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:52,000 Speaker 3: with Kenya. We're working in the Caribbean, in Jamaica, in Barbados, 499 00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:57,160 Speaker 3: and in this last two we support the government directly 500 00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:01,960 Speaker 3: with the design. In the case of Jamaicable energy auction 501 00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:06,080 Speaker 3: was fully supported by RELP to the government we are 502 00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:10,360 Speaker 3: now working in the second round of functions to keep 503 00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:13,760 Speaker 3: on incorporating renewables and batteries as well in the country. 504 00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:18,680 Speaker 3: In Barbados, we've been working together with the government, with 505 00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:22,240 Speaker 3: the Ministry of the Government of Minamoti to support them 506 00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:26,120 Speaker 3: in the design and implementation of the batteries of the 507 00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:30,920 Speaker 3: best auction, the first auction they run ever, So that's 508 00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:33,320 Speaker 3: the kind of things that we do. We work hands 509 00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:34,480 Speaker 3: on with the governments. 510 00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:37,640 Speaker 1: So it's not copying and pasting what you did in Argentina, 511 00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:40,200 Speaker 1: but sort of figuring out what is the need for 512 00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:43,480 Speaker 1: that country at that point in this supply chain that 513 00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:46,760 Speaker 1: you need to build off all kinds of financial tools 514 00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:52,960 Speaker 1: and regulations and markets to actually implement renewable energy projects exactly. 515 00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:58,840 Speaker 3: Welp and bess technical policy and financial expertise directly within 516 00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:02,720 Speaker 3: national governments to design competitive auctions and to integrate the 517 00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:07,680 Speaker 3: risky instruments we bring. I would say this tined mindset 518 00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:12,360 Speaker 3: focused on delivery and effective implementation that concept of the 519 00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:15,240 Speaker 3: hands song, so we you know, we have people in 520 00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:18,920 Speaker 3: the field in the countries working together with the governments 521 00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:20,640 Speaker 3: to help them run the six. 522 00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:23,640 Speaker 1: Thank you for sharing your story of Argentina and for 523 00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:28,320 Speaker 1: the story of supporting other developing countries and getting renewable energy. 524 00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:29,960 Speaker 1: Thanks for joining the show. 525 00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:32,640 Speaker 3: Thank you so much, ak Shat for having me really, 526 00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:33,560 Speaker 3: thank you very much. 527 00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:43,000 Speaker 1: And thank you for listening to zero. Now for the 528 00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:56,040 Speaker 1: sound of the week. Now, that's the call of the 529 00:33:56,240 --> 00:34:00,880 Speaker 1: endangered Florida panther, which lives in Florida's Big Cypress National Preserve. 530 00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:03,960 Speaker 1: The preserve is just one of many places in the 531 00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:07,040 Speaker 1: US that may lose protection as part of President Donald 532 00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:10,719 Speaker 1: Trump's plan to trim the National Park Service. The White 533 00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:13,480 Speaker 1: House is proposing a cut of one point two billion 534 00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:16,799 Speaker 1: dollars to the Park Service's budget. Read more about it 535 00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:21,759 Speaker 1: on Bloomberg dot com, Forward slash Green. If you liked 536 00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:24,160 Speaker 1: this episode, please take a moment to rate and review 537 00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:27,480 Speaker 1: the show on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. This episode was 538 00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:31,319 Speaker 1: produced by Oscar Boyd with help from Annamazarakus. Our theme 539 00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:35,240 Speaker 1: music is composed by wonderl Special thanks to Somersadi Mosses 540 00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:39,879 Speaker 1: andam Laura Milan and Sharon chen. I'm Akshadrati back soon.