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Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff you should know, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's Chuck,

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Speaker 2: and there's Jerry, and we're just well, Jerry's not here. Actually,

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Speaker 2: now I mentioned it. That was just fsoph habit, wasn't it?

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Speaker 1: The ghost of Jerry. She's not she's still with us.

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Speaker 2: She's driving the getaway car.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, she's not that kind of ghost.

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Speaker 2: No no, no, no, no no, she's the kind of

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Speaker 2: ghost that drives a getaway car.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: So I mentioned that though, Chuck, because it's apropos of

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Speaker 2: the heist episode we're about to talk about, which I

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Speaker 2: guess this would qualify as a heist.

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Speaker 1: Right, Oh, I mean heck yeah.

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Speaker 2: Well usually to me, heists are a little more intricate

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Speaker 2: most of the time successful. This was a little more

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Speaker 2: brute firepower than any other heist or most other heists,

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Speaker 2: So that's why it kind of disqualifies it in my opinion.

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Speaker 2: Oh okay, that's my essay on heists.

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Speaker 1: I don't even know what the definition of heist is.

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Speaker 2: I just gave it to you.

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Speaker 1: Apparently a robbery, so yeah, sure.

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Speaker 2: I mean, of course it's a robbery. But and this

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Speaker 2: qualifies as a robbery. It's just it's its own unique thing,

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Speaker 2: for sure, big time. And you know, as you're reading this,

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Speaker 2: it's so theatrical, it's so just totally off the chain

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Speaker 2: nuts that this actually happened in real life. It's you

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Speaker 2: have to remind yourself from time to time like these

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Speaker 2: are like really really bad guys and what they were

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Speaker 2: doing was beyond reprehensible. It's just we're so trained to

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Speaker 2: get sucked into that kind of like action in the

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Speaker 2: movies that when it happens in real life you have

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Speaker 2: to like kind of turn off that entertainment part of

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Speaker 2: it and bring yourself back to reality. Sometimes, at least

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Speaker 2: I did. I had trouble doing it during research a

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Speaker 2: few times, No.

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Speaker 1: For sure.

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Speaker 3: And we're talking about the North Hollywood shootout is what

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Speaker 3: it's known a lot as the Battle of North Hollywood sometimes.

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Speaker 3: And this is on February twenty eighth and nineteen ninety seven,

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Speaker 3: when two dudes armed to the hilt with assault rifles

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Speaker 3: like anything you can think of. And this is, as

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Speaker 3: we'll see a time when and this is kind of

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Speaker 3: one of the big sort of I guess, interesting and

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Speaker 3: scary parts about this. This is when cops like people

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Speaker 3: could be more out armed than the police that are

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Speaker 3: trying to stop them, right, And that's what happened the

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Speaker 3: day that they engaged, when North Hollywood became a war

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Speaker 3: zoned for a little while.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and as a matter of fact, this episode, this

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Speaker 2: event led directly to the militarization of police forces, as

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Speaker 2: we see, these two guys basically pressed that issue because, yeah,

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Speaker 2: the Los Angeles Police Department was outgunned, out armed, and

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Speaker 2: but definitely not outnumbered. They outnumbered the robbers, but they

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Speaker 2: were still getting pinned down and they were having no

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Speaker 2: luck with anything. Well, I don't want to give too

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Speaker 2: much away. Let's just start at the beginning, because we're

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Speaker 2: talking about two dudes. A twenty six year old this

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Speaker 2: is back in ninety seven, named Larry Eugene Phillips Junior,

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Speaker 2: and there was a thirty year old who he was

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Speaker 2: friends with named Emil Mattiseranu. And even though Emil was older,

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Speaker 2: Larry was the one who called the shots. He was

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Speaker 2: roundly described by family members as manipulative, controlling, and he

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Speaker 2: had Emil under his thumb. A meal was described by

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Speaker 2: his family members later as a follower. So even though

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Speaker 2: he was a little older. He listened to what Emil

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Speaker 2: told him to do, not just in their partnership as

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Speaker 2: like criminals, but in life too. I read somewhere that

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Speaker 2: Emil got married because Larry told him he should and

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Speaker 2: that he shouldn't marry an American girl. So Emil went

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Speaker 2: to Romania and got himself a Romanian bribe because he

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Speaker 2: was a remain immigrant. That level of control is apparently

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Speaker 2: what they were engaged in.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, totally previous to their meeting they met each other,

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Speaker 3: they were bodybuilders, not professionally but just bodybuilding guys at

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Speaker 3: Gold's Gym and Venice Beach in nineteen eighty nine. And

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Speaker 3: just prior to this is when Phillips started. His life

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Speaker 3: of crime. Started kind of small, I guess, like most criminals,

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Speaker 3: just a heist of four hundred dollars from a seers

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Speaker 3: in southern California, and then graduated to burglary, real estate

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Speaker 3: fraud stuff like that. Apparently was sort of enamored of

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Speaker 3: Scarface and ultimately the movie Heat. So if this shootout

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Speaker 3: sounds familiar, it sounds a lot like the one from Heat,

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Speaker 3: it's because they seem to have been inspired by that

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Speaker 3: movie for sure.

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Speaker 1: But love not only just the.

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Speaker 3: Gangsters and movies, but also the white collar criminals. He

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Speaker 3: would apparently like park in front of rich people's houses

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Speaker 3: and just sort of fantasize about that life and wanted

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Speaker 3: money like he you know, in the end, this whole

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Speaker 3: thing was about money and like the thrill of it

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Speaker 3: all largely because of Phillips.

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Speaker 2: Right for sure, and Phillips was he kind of had

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Speaker 2: the odds stacked against him in succeeding in a normal

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Speaker 2: nine to five life because of the family he was

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Speaker 2: born into. His father, Larry Ejeen Phillips Senior, who would

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Speaker 2: later speak about his son in glowing terms after this.

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Speaker 2: He was actually an escape beef from a prison in

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Speaker 2: Colorado when Larry Junior was born, so Larry Junior was

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Speaker 2: born into an alias. His last name was False Orful.

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Speaker 2: That's how he was born, and on his sixth birthday,

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Speaker 2: apparently the FBI came in with guns drawn to capture

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Speaker 2: his dad, and that helped set up what was referred

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Speaker 2: to as basically a lifelong hatred of the police and

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Speaker 2: by extension, the kind of normal society the police were

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Speaker 2: charged with defending.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: As Par Mattisrano, he was a Romanian immigrant came into

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Speaker 3: the country when he was about eleven in nineteen seventy seven,

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Speaker 3: was naturalized in eighty eight. And his mom, we'll talk

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Speaker 3: about her a little bit. Her name was Valerie Nicolescue.

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Speaker 2: I think that definitely gets it across sure Nicolescue.

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Speaker 3: She says that he was bullied when he was a kid.

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Speaker 3: He became a computer and video game nerd. He ended

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Speaker 3: up going to Devrye Institute of Technology when he was

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Speaker 3: nineteen and I'm sorry he got his degree when he

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Speaker 3: was nineteen. But his neighbors also said things like this

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Speaker 3: guy was bad news. He threatened one of the neighbors

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Speaker 3: with a chainsaw because their dog came on his property.

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Speaker 3: And their family also had another sort of disturbing secret, right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they had a family business, a Meal and his mom, Valerie,

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Speaker 2: had like basically a residential care center out of their

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Speaker 2: home for people with disabilities, usually cognitive disabilities or mental

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Speaker 2: health issues. And they were set up as a legitimate

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Speaker 2: care institute. No, that's not the word, I guess a

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Speaker 2: care home. Yeah. The problem is is they were not

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Speaker 2: a good care home by pretty much any standard. They

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Speaker 2: were caught multiple times doing or they were accused multiple

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Speaker 2: times of mistreating the people. One of their residents was

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Speaker 2: left in the hospital just kind of abandoned, ditched there.

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Speaker 2: There was supposedly some allegations that a Meal had been

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Speaker 2: abusive toward at least one of the patients there, and

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Speaker 2: he was not allowed to come back into the house anymore,

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Speaker 2: which is a problem because this is the family house.

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Speaker 2: And eventually they got shut down for fire codes, and

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Speaker 2: later on we'll see it even got worse after the

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Speaker 2: heist happened and all the news came out and the

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Speaker 2: police and the press started looking into that family and

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Speaker 2: their family business. Just suffice to say, like, his mom

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Speaker 2: doesn't appear to have been a very good person herself,

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Speaker 2: just based on the allegations of how she treated the

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Speaker 2: people who were under her care.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it was pretty just.

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Speaker 3: I mean, this is one of the more disturbing parts

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Speaker 3: of this whole story actually, and it's kind of a sidebar,

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Speaker 3: which is after the shootout, they searched her like a

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Speaker 3: commercial building that she owned in Pasadena and found a

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Speaker 3: forty four year old mentally disabled woman locked in a

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Speaker 3: room with no windows, with no food or water. And

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Speaker 3: then later it turns out that she was charged for

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Speaker 3: that initially.

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Speaker 1: Which was.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I guess just sort of like a neglect charge.

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Speaker 3: She was sentenced to ten months. But then later in

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Speaker 3: two thousand and two, I found an article in the

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Speaker 3: La Times where because I was like, why would she

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Speaker 3: do this? It was a social security fraud. She was

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Speaker 3: collecting checks in her name and her and this other woman.

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Speaker 3: Later on she you know, it was basically welfare and

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Speaker 3: social security fraud. So she got pinched for that in

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Speaker 3: two thousand and two.

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Speaker 2: And if you read kind of some of the contemporary

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Speaker 2: articles from nineteen ninety seven right after the heist, she's

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Speaker 2: kind of portrayed by the press as like the thing

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Speaker 2: she says about herself or her background, the press don't

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Speaker 2: really take on face value. Yeah, Like she's she said

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Speaker 2: that she was an opera singer from the state opera

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Speaker 2: in Romania who defected in nineteen seventy seven, And they

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Speaker 2: use the words like claim And when somebody's described as

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Speaker 2: claiming something about their own personal history, that's a signal

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Speaker 2: from the press that this is probably not a trustworthy person.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely.

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Speaker 3: She would also say after this whole shootout went down

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Speaker 3: with her son that she was like he was depressed,

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Speaker 3: his wife had left him, and taken his kid, and

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Speaker 3: I basically think this was a suicide mission for him.

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Speaker 3: So whether or not that was true, who knows. That's

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Speaker 3: what she claimed, right.

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Speaker 2: So these are the guys who found each other in

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Speaker 2: nineteen eighty nine at Gold's gym and became really good friends.

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Speaker 2: And one of the things, in addition to bodybuilding that

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Speaker 2: they had in common was a real pronounced love of guns,

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Speaker 2: and not just any guns, high power to assault rifles

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Speaker 2: in particular. And apparently Larry Phillips had a line somewhere

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Speaker 2: on steel cased ammunition. He could get it from Russia,

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Speaker 2: highly illegal, but apparently people weren't paying attention, and I

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Speaker 2: saw there was this British National Geographic little hour long

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Speaker 2: documentary on this called Situation Critical, which reminded me of

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Speaker 2: that Seinfeld movie Prognosis Negative totally. But they said that

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Speaker 2: he managed to import rounds of this really illegal, like

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Speaker 2: incredibly powerful steel lined ammunition by the thousands of rounds.

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Speaker 2: So not only did they have really high powered assault rifles,

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Speaker 2: they had immeasurably higher powered shells to put in those

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Speaker 2: assault rifles, which made them extremely dangerous people.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, And as we'll see, and maybe we should take

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Speaker 3: a break here. These two guys were doing a lot

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Speaker 3: of really dangerous criming before that ninety seven shootout.

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Speaker 4: Let's take that break, all right.

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Speaker 3: All right, so before we broke, I hinted around that

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Speaker 3: these guys were criming around previous to the nineteen ninety

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Speaker 3: seven shootout where everything ended, and that is very much true.

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Speaker 1: In nineteen ninety three, they.

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Speaker 3: Were pulled over in a rental car in Glendale and

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Speaker 3: cop said, all right, well, let me take a look

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Speaker 3: in the trunk, and they went, oh, you've got two

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Speaker 3: nine millimeter handguns, two forty five hand guns, two coalition acoffs,

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Speaker 3: six smoke grenades, two homemade bombs, three machine guns, two

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Speaker 3: bulletproof vests, one gas mask, six holsters, wigs, ski masks,

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Speaker 3: two police radio scanners, a stopwatch, and close to three

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Speaker 3: thousand rounds of AMMO. And they said, we're just going

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Speaker 3: to the shooting range, man. And you know, sometimes we

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Speaker 3: like to wear wigs or ski masks, or listen to

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Speaker 3: what the cops are doing, or time each other.

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Speaker 2: Right, we're big fans of the police.

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Speaker 3: Obviously that all is, you know, to an outsider obvious bs.

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Speaker 3: But shockingly, the DA said, you know, we don't have

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Speaker 3: enough evidence to convict them of conspiracy to commit robbery,

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Speaker 3: and they pled down to a misdemeanor weapons charge in

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Speaker 3: about four months in county jail.

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Speaker 2: Each It gets even worse than that. That was nineteen ninety.

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Speaker 1: Three, Okay.

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Speaker 2: They were not only led off with basically a slap

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Speaker 2: on the wrist. What they had in their trunk was

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Speaker 2: described by other people later on as a bank robbery kit.

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Speaker 2: That's everything you needed to rob a bank right there,

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Speaker 2: and it was so painfully obvious that's what that was.

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Speaker 2: That but they still was a stick up note right, No,

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Speaker 2: there wasn't anything like that. They hadn't gotten to that point.

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Speaker 2: But the craziest part of this whole thing crazier that

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Speaker 2: they only got four months for these weapons. The DA

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Speaker 2: and the judge agreed to give them their weapons back

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Speaker 2: after they got out of jail, so they were re armed,

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Speaker 2: ostensibly so that they could sell the weapons to pay

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Speaker 2: for their legal costs, but no one followed up to

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Speaker 2: make sure they did sell the weapons. They just gave

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Speaker 2: them back their assault rifles and their handguns and probably

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Speaker 2: their ski masks, everything they needed to go rob banks.

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Speaker 2: And that's exactly what they did with that stuff, and.

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Speaker 1: This was Los Angeles. Yeah, for goodness sakes, I know,

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Speaker 1: it's crazy.

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Speaker 3: So later on, this was after the you know, the

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Speaker 3: final shootout that we're leading up to, But later on

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Speaker 3: there was obviously all kinds of investigations and stuff, and

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Speaker 3: they learned that these two guys were, in fact what

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Speaker 3: were known as the High Incident bandits, these two dudes

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Speaker 3: that robbed well, it was technically it was two incidences,

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Speaker 3: but banks, because they hit two banks at once. In

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Speaker 3: ninety five, they robbed a well, not a bank, but

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Speaker 3: they robbed a Brinks truck in front of a Bank

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Speaker 3: of America in the valley and they killed a guy.

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Speaker 1: They killed the driver. They opened up fire on these dudes.

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Speaker 2: Without warning, without it put your hands that they just

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Speaker 2: came out of nowhere and just started firing on them.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, which will you know, we'll see as an

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Speaker 3: obvious precedent. And then in nineteen ninety six, they robbed

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Speaker 3: two Bank of Americas, one of which was the one

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Speaker 3: that they had previously robbed the armored car in front

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Speaker 3: of and killed that guy. And you know, it was

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Speaker 3: the same type of deal. They had these automatic rifles.

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Speaker 3: They were, you know, screaming that they're going to kill you.

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Speaker 3: They had body armor, ski masks, sunglasses. They took their

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Speaker 3: time as far as bank robberies go, by being in

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Speaker 3: these banks for six minutes and eight minutes very long,

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Speaker 3: which is that's a long time for a bank robbery.

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Speaker 1: I tried to get out of there in less than three.

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Speaker 2: Well, yeah, that's you know, that's what everybody does, that's

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Speaker 2: our goal.

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Speaker 3: But they made off. I mean, these guys had a

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Speaker 3: lot of money. They made off with between one point

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Speaker 3: three and one point seven million bucks combined from this

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Speaker 3: these two heists.

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Speaker 2: Let alone whatever they got from the Brinks robbery.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, absolutely. And they were you know, they were

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Speaker 3: well known. They were the high incidence bandits. The FBI

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Speaker 3: was you know, actively tracking them and also had a

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Speaker 3: theory that they're not alone. They're part of like a

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Speaker 3: larger crime ring or terror string that's funding them.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and like that's not only funding them with arms,

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Speaker 2: but the bank robberies are meant to fund some sort

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Speaker 2: of like right wing paramilitary group or terrorist organization or something.

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Speaker 2: That was the point. That was the premise they were

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Speaker 2: going on because these guys were so incredibly well armed

284
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Speaker 2: and just for context too, one point seven million dollars

285
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Speaker 2: for two bank robberies is a eye popping amount of money.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's up.

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Speaker 2: There in like the top probably fifty bank robberies in

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Speaker 2: United States history. Like, those are really big hauls. I

289
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Speaker 2: saw at the time in nineteen ninety one, the average

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00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:05,439
Speaker 2: bank robbery in the United States yielded the robbers about

291
00:17:05,440 --> 00:17:10,400
Speaker 2: three thousand dollars robbing a bank. The takes were usually

292
00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:15,520
Speaker 2: so paltry that it wasn't worth the bank's money to

293
00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:18,680
Speaker 2: invest in other protections like screens that go up really

294
00:17:18,760 --> 00:17:21,840
Speaker 2: quick between the tellers and the bank robbers. It wasn't

295
00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:25,399
Speaker 2: worth them installing those in banks because the robbers rarely

296
00:17:25,440 --> 00:17:27,639
Speaker 2: got away with more than a few thousand dollars. So

297
00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:31,159
Speaker 2: that was a huge, huge score for almost two million

298
00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:33,840
Speaker 2: dollars between just two bank robberies for these guys.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and I don't think murder usually occurs at those

300
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Speaker 3: bank robberies too, Supposedly.

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Speaker 2: I can't remember the number. I think it was like

302
00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:46,520
Speaker 2: sixteen people died in bank robberies over like I think

303
00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:49,040
Speaker 2: eighty five to ninety five or something like that, and

304
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Speaker 2: twelve of them were the bank robber. It was a

305
00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:55,080
Speaker 2: statistic somewhat like that. So yeah, yeah, and I think

306
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Speaker 2: eighty five percent of bank robberies get caught. It's a

307
00:17:57,200 --> 00:18:03,280
Speaker 2: really high risk, usually low reward, yeah crime, but if

308
00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:05,920
Speaker 2: you do it like these guys did, armed to the teeth.

309
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Speaker 2: And the other reason that their yields were so big,

310
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Speaker 2: they scouted out the banks and they knew when the

311
00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:15,080
Speaker 2: bank was going to get some big delivery of cash.

312
00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:18,200
Speaker 2: Usually it was a payday or something like that. That's

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00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:21,240
Speaker 2: why their robberies paid off so well. They had done

314
00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:22,440
Speaker 2: their homework ahead of time.

315
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Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's how they do it in the movies.

316
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Speaker 3: And apparently these guys were inspired by movies.

317
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Speaker 2: Yeah. I guess everybody else in real life doesn't do

318
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Speaker 2: it like the movies.

319
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Speaker 3: Yeah, so they were, you know, they were living kind

320
00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:35,719
Speaker 3: of high on the hog for a little while. They

321
00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:38,520
Speaker 3: had a lot of money. Phillips himself, he was the

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Speaker 3: one that really sort of idolized, you know, being wealthy

323
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Speaker 3: and all that stuff. He like bought fancy cars, he

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00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:49,639
Speaker 3: bought rolexes. I think mattisonana rented a big house for

325
00:18:49,720 --> 00:18:53,159
Speaker 3: his family. So, you know, I think looking at the timeline,

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Speaker 3: one was in June of ninety five, one was almost

327
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Speaker 3: a year later in ninety six, so, and then this

328
00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:03,920
Speaker 3: final one was in February ninety seven. They weren't, you know,

329
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Speaker 3: they weren't doing this. It's hard to say they were

330
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Speaker 3: being smart about it because they were so brazen. But

331
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Speaker 3: it seems like they were doing this as like, all right, well,

332
00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:13,679
Speaker 3: here's our annual salary and then we'll go out and

333
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Speaker 3: do it again in about a year.

334
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Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, no, they were. It was like their new

335
00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:20,919
Speaker 2: job and their new hobby and their new life, I

336
00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:25,120
Speaker 2: guess from what I understand. Right. So, on the day

337
00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:28,760
Speaker 2: of the robbery, their third heist, February twenty, nineteen ninety seven,

338
00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:31,160
Speaker 2: a Friday, and since it's the end of the month,

339
00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:34,879
Speaker 2: a payday, they had targeted a Bank of America. It

340
00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:37,040
Speaker 2: wasn't one they had hit before, but for some.

341
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Speaker 1: Reason they did Bank of America.

342
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Speaker 2: They really and I kind of get why, but a

343
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Speaker 2: being a former Bank of America account holder myself, But

344
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Speaker 2: they they hit one in North Hollywood. It was on

345
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Speaker 2: Laurel Canyon Boulevard. Are you familiar with this area? Oh

346
00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:56,120
Speaker 2: of course, Okay, so you knew were you in la

347
00:19:56,200 --> 00:19:57,920
Speaker 2: at the time? No?

348
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Speaker 1: I didn't.

349
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Speaker 3: Oh wow, this is kind of right before that though

350
00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:05,200
Speaker 3: I didn't move to LA until two thousand, okay, yeah,

351
00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:09,120
Speaker 3: and North Hollywood just for references, you know, Hollywood, Central Hollywood,

352
00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:11,880
Speaker 3: kind of right in the middle of sort of central LA.

353
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Speaker 3: And then just over the mountains as you go into

354
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Speaker 3: the valley, that's where North Hollywood is.

355
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Speaker 2: Right And that's where Hank, the Cheshneian gangster in the

356
00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:25,439
Speaker 2: HBO show Berry is from. That's why they call him

357
00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:26,159
Speaker 2: NoHo Hank.

358
00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:29,359
Speaker 1: I need to do, Barry you do.

359
00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:33,960
Speaker 2: It's one of those shows that gets insanely off the

360
00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:36,280
Speaker 2: rails and yet they still manage to make it work.

361
00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:37,240
Speaker 2: It's really good.

362
00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:38,439
Speaker 1: You know.

363
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Speaker 3: I watched a little bit of it years ago when

364
00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:44,160
Speaker 3: it first started and just got distracted and never got

365
00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:47,320
Speaker 3: back around to it. But I'd love everyone in that show.

366
00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:51,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you should. You should give you another shot, all.

367
00:20:51,119 --> 00:20:52,640
Speaker 1: Right, I'll bury up soon.

368
00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:59,200
Speaker 2: It's weird though, it's it's deceptively gritty. It's a comedy

369
00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:02,040
Speaker 2: through it, and it's just bizarre and all that. But

370
00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:06,200
Speaker 2: there's if you really kind of get into the violence,

371
00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:09,159
Speaker 2: the meat of it, it's it's pretty hardcore. It's a

372
00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:11,720
Speaker 2: crazy show. It's hard to pin down, but it's worth

373
00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:12,119
Speaker 2: the seeing.

374
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Speaker 1: All right, I'll follow up.

375
00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:18,359
Speaker 2: So Friday, February twenty eighth, nineteen ninety seven, Larry Phillips

376
00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:23,240
Speaker 2: and a Meal MADISERANU walk into a bank of America

377
00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:27,640
Speaker 2: and they are covered head to toe and tactical gear

378
00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:32,760
Speaker 2: ski masks. It turns out Larry Phillips is covered from

379
00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:37,480
Speaker 2: neck to ankle in body armor. Yeah, that he helped.

380
00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:40,600
Speaker 2: He apparently so did it himself and it was really effective.

381
00:21:41,359 --> 00:21:45,760
Speaker 2: A Meal MATASERANUH has a trauma plate basically a like

382
00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:50,280
Speaker 2: a bulletproof plate covering his chest and his vital organs.

383
00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:53,440
Speaker 2: And they walk in and apparently the first thing they

384
00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:56,440
Speaker 2: did was started firing into the air from their AK

385
00:21:56,560 --> 00:22:00,000
Speaker 2: forty sevens. And you would think that that would capture

386
00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:03,399
Speaker 2: the attention of the police, but that's a moot point

387
00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:06,440
Speaker 2: because the police watched them walk into the bank from

388
00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:07,960
Speaker 2: the first moment this started.

389
00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:11,359
Speaker 3: Boy, I mean, you can do all the planning in

390
00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:14,640
Speaker 3: the world as a bank robber, but you can never

391
00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:19,720
Speaker 3: count or discount bad luck for them good luck for

392
00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:23,640
Speaker 3: everyone else. Sure, but literally there was a police cruiser

393
00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:28,000
Speaker 3: that were like sitting there and watched two guys walk

394
00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:30,720
Speaker 3: into this bank armed like this, And I'm sure they

395
00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:35,440
Speaker 3: were like what the boo and immediately called this is

396
00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:39,200
Speaker 3: at nine seventeen, and they immediately called for backup obviously,

397
00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:42,320
Speaker 3: and I think once they saw and heard the shots

398
00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:45,040
Speaker 3: and everything, they all immediately knew that these were the

399
00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:46,160
Speaker 3: high incident bandits.

400
00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:49,000
Speaker 2: Yes, and for those fans of Snoop Dogg and Doctor

401
00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:52,359
Speaker 2: Dre and Ice Cube and NWA, you're well aware that

402
00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:54,640
Speaker 2: what the police called in was a two to eleven

403
00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:57,080
Speaker 2: an armed robbery in progress.

404
00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:00,000
Speaker 1: That's good.

405
00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:03,399
Speaker 2: So one of the things, a little detail that kind

406
00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:08,280
Speaker 2: of emerged later on, apparently Larry Phillips and Emal were

407
00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:11,440
Speaker 2: not drug users whatsoever in any way, shape or form,

408
00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:14,760
Speaker 2: but apparently they had taken phena barbital just before the

409
00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:18,080
Speaker 2: bank robbery to basically calm their nerves. They were the

410
00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:20,680
Speaker 2: kind of bank robbers that you see in the movies,

411
00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:23,720
Speaker 2: but they don't actually exist in real life. These guys

412
00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:26,639
Speaker 2: existed in real life. They would knock down old ladies

413
00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:29,680
Speaker 2: and put guns in their faces. They would tell moms

414
00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:31,199
Speaker 2: that if they didn't shut their kids up, they were

415
00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:34,280
Speaker 2: going to kill their kids. They fired wildly into the air,

416
00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:38,280
Speaker 2: they fired wildly into the bank. They just shot everything

417
00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:41,760
Speaker 2: up everywhere they were really abusive. They were really tough,

418
00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:46,600
Speaker 2: they were really scary, and they were also really on

419
00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:50,159
Speaker 2: point as far as knowing where the money is, knowing

420
00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:52,840
Speaker 2: who would have access to the money, and just making

421
00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:55,119
Speaker 2: this whole thing work. They had also figured out that

422
00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:58,160
Speaker 2: they had about eight minutes before the average response time.

423
00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:00,840
Speaker 2: They hadn't noticed the cops watching them walk in, and

424
00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:04,720
Speaker 2: so they had timer stopwatches on during this whole eight

425
00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:05,560
Speaker 2: minute robbery.

426
00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:08,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, which is what they had in the trunk when

427
00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:09,840
Speaker 3: the cops pulled them over four years earlier.

428
00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:11,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, the stop watch.

429
00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:14,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, so yeah, I mean they had this thing planned out,

430
00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:18,159
Speaker 3: but they also didn't know certain things, like they asked

431
00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:22,439
Speaker 3: the bank manager to open up the ATMs, and he's like,

432
00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:25,199
Speaker 3: I can't open the ATMs, Like I literally can't do that.

433
00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:28,960
Speaker 3: So he tried to shoot them open, which did nothing

434
00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:31,520
Speaker 3: to get into the atm, but of course it you know,

435
00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:35,919
Speaker 3: bullets Rickachet everywhere and injured the bank manager. They also,

436
00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:39,520
Speaker 3: you know, would shoot I think one of them, Phillips,

437
00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:43,639
Speaker 3: wasn't it, who literally shot into a safe and like

438
00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:46,040
Speaker 3: shot up a lot of the money that they could

439
00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:47,480
Speaker 3: have gotten, Yeah, ruining that.

440
00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:50,960
Speaker 2: Out of anger. They learned that the Prinks truck that

441
00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:53,680
Speaker 2: was supposed to be delivering hundreds and hundreds about three

442
00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:57,119
Speaker 2: quarters of a million dollars by their estimate, was running

443
00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:00,480
Speaker 2: late or had been rescheduled to throw off bank robberies,

444
00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:03,359
Speaker 2: and out of anger, Emil just shot into a safe

445
00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:06,000
Speaker 2: and and basically just ruined a bunch of cash that

446
00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:06,919
Speaker 2: they could have taken.

447
00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:10,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, there was also a cell phone on the scene,

448
00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:13,359
Speaker 3: which is not the most common thing in nineteen ninety seven,

449
00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:17,280
Speaker 3: for sure, but it was la and they locked a

450
00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:20,679
Speaker 3: bunch of the they were about, you know, thirty bystanders

451
00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:24,440
Speaker 3: or you know, just people doing bank business. They separated

452
00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:28,000
Speaker 3: them out from the tellers and put them in a

453
00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:31,199
Speaker 3: vault and shut the door, and one of the I

454
00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:33,280
Speaker 3: believe one of the women inside had a cell phone,

455
00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:35,840
Speaker 3: and I'm not sure how much it help, but she

456
00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:39,280
Speaker 3: was at least able to be in touch with the cops,

457
00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:41,600
Speaker 3: sort of describing what she was hearing while all this

458
00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:42,160
Speaker 3: is going on.

459
00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:45,640
Speaker 2: Right, this is at a time before people knew what

460
00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:48,680
Speaker 2: lol meant, and run of the cops she was texting

461
00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:52,399
Speaker 2: with was like, LOL meaning lots of love, but she

462
00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:53,520
Speaker 2: didn't take it that way.

463
00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:58,000
Speaker 1: Lots of love. I thought it was laugh out loud.

464
00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:00,840
Speaker 2: Right, that's what it means. The didn't know that. He

465
00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:03,000
Speaker 2: thought he was saying, like, hang in there, l O, I.

466
00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:05,880
Speaker 1: Gotcha, got cha? Okay, I missed. I'm a little less

467
00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:06,320
Speaker 1: sick today.

468
00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:08,520
Speaker 2: That's all right. I stole that joke from family guy.

469
00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:12,439
Speaker 3: Anyway, In the end, though, they did get, you know,

470
00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:15,159
Speaker 3: a pretty good take. They got about three hundred thousand

471
00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:19,720
Speaker 3: dollars worth of cash, and then I guess we should

472
00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:21,760
Speaker 3: probably take a break here. But then they exited the

473
00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:25,760
Speaker 3: bank and all h e double hockey sticks broke loose.

474
00:26:56,440 --> 00:27:01,960
Speaker 2: Okay, chuck, it's about nine five, believe eight minutes has passed,

475
00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:06,440
Speaker 2: the timers going off on their stopwatches, and Amal Mataseranu

476
00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:10,040
Speaker 2: and Larry Phillips are now planning on leaving the bank.

477
00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:12,040
Speaker 2: They have a duffel bag with about three hundred grand

478
00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:16,240
Speaker 2: in cash, and supposedly right when they walk out the door,

479
00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:19,240
Speaker 2: the die packs in the bag go off and completely

480
00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:22,159
Speaker 2: ruin the cash. So the cash that they thought was

481
00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:24,520
Speaker 2: going to be there wasn't there. The cash that they

482
00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:28,560
Speaker 2: did get was now completely ruined forever because the die packs.

483
00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:32,639
Speaker 2: And they come out and realize that the cops have

484
00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:36,639
Speaker 2: them surrounded that this eight minute response time thing doesn't

485
00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:38,920
Speaker 2: count when the cops watch you walk into the bank

486
00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:41,280
Speaker 2: with ski masks in AK forty sevens.

487
00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:44,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like, what kind of surrounded are we talking about here?

488
00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:48,439
Speaker 2: We're talking about surrounded on every side with police helicopters

489
00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:51,240
Speaker 2: hovering overhead. That's what they walked out of the bank into.

490
00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:54,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, in the end, there would be more than three

491
00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:58,800
Speaker 3: hundred cops from five different agencies that were engaged in

492
00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:04,159
Speaker 3: the shootout, three hundred against two. That gives you a

493
00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:07,200
Speaker 3: little insight into just how much more heavily armed these

494
00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:10,200
Speaker 3: guys were. That it lasted this long, but they walked

495
00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:14,960
Speaker 3: out to that scene and immediately turned North Hollywood into

496
00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:18,399
Speaker 3: a war zone. I've watched a lot of video this stuff,

497
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:21,520
Speaker 3: and this is one of the remarkable things is a

498
00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:24,600
Speaker 3: lot of this stuff is on video. You know, LA

499
00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:27,960
Speaker 3: is notorious for you know, anytime something like this is happening,

500
00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:32,840
Speaker 3: there's six helicopters, news helicopters overhead, like within minutes, just

501
00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:36,520
Speaker 3: kind of live streaming, or I guess you wouldn't.

502
00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:37,360
Speaker 1: Call it live streaming then what.

503
00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:38,680
Speaker 2: Would you just say broadcasting?

504
00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:42,320
Speaker 1: Live broadcasting? There you go, Oh man, it's been so long.

505
00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:43,520
Speaker 2: You're so twenty twenties.

506
00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:47,240
Speaker 3: I am so yeah, live broadcasting this thing from above,

507
00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:49,040
Speaker 3: so you can watch a lot of this take place,

508
00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:52,480
Speaker 3: which is horrifying. But again, if you've seen enough movies,

509
00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:54,240
Speaker 3: you're like, yeah, it looks like a lot of movies

510
00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:57,160
Speaker 3: I've seen. But a lot of the interviews that you

511
00:28:57,200 --> 00:28:59,520
Speaker 3: know since then that have happened with cops that were

512
00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:02,480
Speaker 3: there and take place basically said like, these guys just

513
00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:10,000
Speaker 3: came out and started shooting at everything that moved, citizens, cars, buildings,

514
00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:13,120
Speaker 3: police cars at the times at the time didn't have

515
00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:17,640
Speaker 3: kevlar siding and their doors and stuff. So like, hiding

516
00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:20,480
Speaker 3: inside a police car was no good. Hiding behind a

517
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:23,240
Speaker 3: police car was better because the bullet going all the

518
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:25,000
Speaker 3: way through it at least is going to you know,

519
00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:27,600
Speaker 3: ricochet around and probably not go like straight into you.

520
00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:30,800
Speaker 3: But you know, they were it was all of a sudden,

521
00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:33,680
Speaker 3: it was like Vietnam out there in North Hollywood.

522
00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:36,160
Speaker 2: So here's the thing. When the cops had them surrounded

523
00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:39,600
Speaker 2: and were waiting for them to come out, Number one

524
00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:41,320
Speaker 2: in the cops mind, they had no idea if the

525
00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:45,719
Speaker 2: whole place inside had just been massacred. Because most robbers

526
00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:47,800
Speaker 2: don't walk in and start shooting into the air. Again,

527
00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:50,880
Speaker 2: that's movie stuff that these guys were influenced by. So

528
00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:53,840
Speaker 2: they heard like, like I think, fifty rounds of automatic

529
00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:56,560
Speaker 2: rifle fire in the bank while they were waiting for

530
00:29:56,600 --> 00:29:58,520
Speaker 2: these guys to come out, and they didn't know if

531
00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:02,080
Speaker 2: everyone inside was just completely killed. That was number one,

532
00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:06,400
Speaker 2: But number two the cops also presume, based on experience

533
00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:09,560
Speaker 2: and history, that when these guys came out and saw

534
00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:12,120
Speaker 2: they were surrounded not just by cops and cop cars

535
00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:14,920
Speaker 2: but also helicopters, that they would just you know, put

536
00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:17,440
Speaker 2: their guns down, put their hands up. So they were

537
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:21,520
Speaker 2: surprised at the response that these two guys took on

538
00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:24,560
Speaker 2: just even just this first initial wave of dozens of cops.

539
00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:28,160
Speaker 2: And then they were further surprised when the guy's bullets

540
00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:32,360
Speaker 2: started going right through any kevlar vests, started going right

541
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:36,800
Speaker 2: through the police cars, started going through buildings, through concrete buildings.

542
00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:38,880
Speaker 2: There was a concrete locksmith like kind of like a

543
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:41,880
Speaker 2: photo mat in the parking lot that they were taking

544
00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:45,360
Speaker 2: shelter behind. The bullets were going through them. This was

545
00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:49,719
Speaker 2: it just suddenly turned completely one hundred and eighty degrees

546
00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:52,760
Speaker 2: from their expectations. And then even worse than that, they

547
00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:56,480
Speaker 2: were finding their own guns were having basically just pinging.

548
00:30:56,760 --> 00:30:58,920
Speaker 2: The bullets were pinging off of these guys because they

549
00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:01,560
Speaker 2: were wearing so much body the armor. So this is

550
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:04,640
Speaker 2: about the moment almost immediately out of the gate when

551
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:07,720
Speaker 2: the cops were like, this is nothing like anything we've

552
00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:11,040
Speaker 2: ever experienced before, and we are out gunned right now.

553
00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:14,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, and this sounds unbelievable, but it's true.

554
00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:18,120
Speaker 3: It was so bad right away that the cops realized

555
00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:21,840
Speaker 3: that and said, if there's any available units, go to

556
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:25,800
Speaker 3: the gun store down the street and get everything you can.

557
00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:29,320
Speaker 3: Like they literally went to a gun store to re

558
00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:32,760
Speaker 3: arm or you know, I guess what would you call

559
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:37,040
Speaker 3: it when your armament, Yeah, I guess. So they leveled

560
00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:40,880
Speaker 3: up on their guns and they did get guns. Apparently

561
00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:45,400
Speaker 3: according to like recovered ammunition stuff, they didn't actually end

562
00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:48,440
Speaker 3: up using those in the firefight because I guess, you know,

563
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:50,640
Speaker 3: the whole thing didn't last that long, and I'm sure

564
00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:53,280
Speaker 3: it took a while to you know, talk the store

565
00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:56,440
Speaker 3: owner and giving up these guns and getting the matching

566
00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:59,760
Speaker 3: ammunition and all that. But they sent for backup for

567
00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:01,760
Speaker 3: them by going to a gun store, which is just

568
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:05,360
Speaker 3: crazy to think about. And they were like, we need

569
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:08,440
Speaker 3: the SWAT team. This is we're police cruiser guys, and

570
00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:12,720
Speaker 3: that we have revolvers or nine millimeters and this ain't happening.

571
00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:16,000
Speaker 3: Swat team is downtown. Took him about eighteen minutes to

572
00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:19,720
Speaker 3: get there, and they got there though. They finally showed up,

573
00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:23,320
Speaker 3: and apparently it was such a quick sort of let's

574
00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:26,000
Speaker 3: get their quick thing that one of the SWAT officers

575
00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:28,120
Speaker 3: was about to go on a jog and he shows

576
00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:29,520
Speaker 3: up in like jogging shorts.

577
00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:32,959
Speaker 2: Yeah, if you watched like the footage of the of

578
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:35,560
Speaker 2: them taking mitos Urano, he's the first one to them

579
00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:37,920
Speaker 2: and it's kind of silly looking to be honest.

580
00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:40,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, but so.

581
00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:43,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, this first wave of cops that they encountered, I

582
00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:45,200
Speaker 2: don't know how many cruisers there were, but let's say

583
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:48,040
Speaker 2: there's probably six and maybe a dozen or so cops.

584
00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:53,920
Speaker 2: There were also two bystanders who got caught in the crossfire,

585
00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:56,440
Speaker 2: both of whom ended up getting shot by those ricochet

586
00:32:56,520 --> 00:32:59,920
Speaker 2: bullets going through cop cars that they were hiding behind.

587
00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:04,680
Speaker 2: Cops were getting shot like through their kevlar vests. I

588
00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:07,160
Speaker 2: think a number of cops were injured and even worse,

589
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:09,480
Speaker 2: they were pinned down. They were in what's called the

590
00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:12,720
Speaker 2: kill zone. Like these guys were very easily able to

591
00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:16,560
Speaker 2: shoot any of these people who were fairly close to them,

592
00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:20,840
Speaker 2: and so these cops had to basically retreat or be

593
00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:22,720
Speaker 2: pinned down. And some of them were pinned down because

594
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:25,520
Speaker 2: they were shot. So if you kind of watch some

595
00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:28,440
Speaker 2: of the footage or you you know, read about it,

596
00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:31,440
Speaker 2: that kind of gets left out. And that was something

597
00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:35,080
Speaker 2: I thought that the Situation Critical documentary really kind of

598
00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:38,840
Speaker 2: drove home, Like there were some people who were in grave,

599
00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:42,960
Speaker 2: grave danger in the first like ten to fifteen minutes

600
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:47,920
Speaker 2: of this firefight before backup arrived. And I also saw

601
00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:53,240
Speaker 2: it described that the Phillips in Mattisaranu at one point,

602
00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:56,360
Speaker 2: especially when they were engaged with that first wave of

603
00:33:56,640 --> 00:34:01,040
Speaker 2: cops who were totally unprepared and une to deal with them,

604
00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:04,240
Speaker 2: that they could have made a getaway, and they seem

605
00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:06,800
Speaker 2: to have decided that they were wanted to stay and

606
00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:11,000
Speaker 2: fight instead. Yeah, that's unusual.

607
00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:15,960
Speaker 3: And I'm curious about the wisdom of that, Like if

608
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:18,000
Speaker 3: they had left, if these guys just would have went

609
00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:19,319
Speaker 3: and got in their car and tried to get out

610
00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:20,040
Speaker 3: of there, I don't know.

611
00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:22,279
Speaker 2: Who knows. I mean, I don't know, the fact that

612
00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:23,840
Speaker 2: they had a helicopter on them would have made it

613
00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:27,040
Speaker 2: pretty difficult, but who knows. Could have been way worse.

614
00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:29,120
Speaker 2: It could have been shorter. Who knows what could have happened.

615
00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:32,400
Speaker 2: But yeah, I think the point was that they, like

616
00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:35,520
Speaker 2: bank robbers, don't try to stick around when they're given

617
00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:37,279
Speaker 2: the option to try to make a run for it,

618
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:38,200
Speaker 2: and these guys.

619
00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:42,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm not gonna Monday Morning quarterback this thing years

620
00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:46,200
Speaker 3: later in my podcast Booth because I wasn't the one,

621
00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:49,040
Speaker 3: you know, getting shot at on the street. So there

622
00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:54,240
Speaker 3: was one citizen hero among this crowd, which was a dentist,

623
00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:58,000
Speaker 3: doctor Jorge Montes, had an office across the street, and

624
00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:01,800
Speaker 3: two cops that were injured like crawled up the stairs

625
00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:04,560
Speaker 3: to his office and he it sounds like he had

626
00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:07,120
Speaker 3: saved at least one of their lives. He treated them immediately,

627
00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:11,800
Speaker 3: and one of the cops had a shrapnel in his ankle,

628
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:16,000
Speaker 3: and Montes was smart enough to be like, we should

629
00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:18,279
Speaker 3: leave that in there, Like, I'll treat you, but I'm

630
00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:20,400
Speaker 3: not taking that out because it could get worse. And

631
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:22,560
Speaker 3: that officer later said that he probably saved my life

632
00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:23,759
Speaker 3: because I probably would have led out.

633
00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:29,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's pretty great. So a few minutes before ten,

634
00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:36,200
Speaker 2: this firefight has been going on for thirty plus minutes. Now, okay,

635
00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:40,400
Speaker 2: Phillips and Mantaseranu decide that this is a really fateful

636
00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:43,040
Speaker 2: decision and no one has any idea why, probably will

637
00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:47,040
Speaker 2: never know why. But mataseranuh gets in their white Chevy Celebrity,

638
00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:51,080
Speaker 2: the ugliest getaway car ever. Oh there's one other thing

639
00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:53,359
Speaker 2: about that white Chevy Celebrity. They had it backed up

640
00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:56,000
Speaker 2: to the bank in a parking space, and so when

641
00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:58,680
Speaker 2: they came out and they were shooting at the cops

642
00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:02,920
Speaker 2: and everybody that moved for thirty minutes with their assault weapons.

643
00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:06,880
Speaker 2: Whenever their assault rifle would like run out of ammo

644
00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:09,920
Speaker 2: or jam or something, they just throw it down, go

645
00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:11,560
Speaker 2: to the trunk of the car and come back with

646
00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:14,840
Speaker 2: a brand new assault rifle. And they had like drums,

647
00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:18,839
Speaker 2: like one hundred round drums as clips. So they were

648
00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:21,560
Speaker 2: really doing a lot of damage. And at some point

649
00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:25,240
Speaker 2: they decided let's head out. Matisanu gets in the Chevy

650
00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:30,520
Speaker 2: Celebrity and rather than get in with him, Larry Phillips

651
00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:34,919
Speaker 2: decides to walk alongside just firing at everybody while Madisranu

652
00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:39,680
Speaker 2: slowly drives with him. And then the really faithful decision

653
00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:43,040
Speaker 2: is made where they decide to split up and Larry

654
00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:47,040
Speaker 2: Phillips peels off for Matiseranu and starts walking down the

655
00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:50,400
Speaker 2: sidewalk of a street, a side street that a residential

656
00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:52,120
Speaker 2: street to a residential area.

657
00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:56,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it's you know, I think I read a

658
00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:57,839
Speaker 3: lot about this too. I think he might have thought

659
00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:01,360
Speaker 3: he was providing some initial cover and the whole split

660
00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:04,040
Speaker 3: up thing is just, you know, judging from the movies,

661
00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:07,239
Speaker 3: I think sometimes that's just what they decide to do, like,

662
00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:10,680
Speaker 3: you know, instead of concentrating everything on us, if we

663
00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:14,400
Speaker 3: split up, that'll that'll split the you know, the burden

664
00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:15,000
Speaker 3: or whatever.

665
00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:18,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I get that. I also, based on

666
00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:21,279
Speaker 2: how quickly things happened after that, it also makes me

667
00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:23,239
Speaker 2: wonder if he was like, I'm just gonna go take

668
00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:24,040
Speaker 2: my last stand.

669
00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:27,720
Speaker 3: Well maybe, I mean, who knows. We're never gonna know, basically,

670
00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:31,120
Speaker 3: and you'll soon find out why. So in the end

671
00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:35,279
Speaker 3: of Phillips was shot eleven times. He's walking down this

672
00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:36,000
Speaker 3: side street.

673
00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:38,400
Speaker 2: He's still walking after he's some of these most of

674
00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:38,960
Speaker 2: these shots.

675
00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:42,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, he's walking down the side street. He's firing at

676
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:46,320
Speaker 3: everything he can, and he gets just like in the movies,

677
00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:49,200
Speaker 3: like an old Western or something, a cop shoots his hand,

678
00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:51,240
Speaker 3: like shoots the gun out of his hand by shooting

679
00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:54,400
Speaker 3: his hand, he reaches down, picks it up, puts it

680
00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:58,560
Speaker 3: under his chin, and in an attempt to kill himself

681
00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:02,880
Speaker 3: and a trigger and you know, it was sort of

682
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:05,080
Speaker 3: a bang bang thing. No one sure which was the

683
00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:08,480
Speaker 3: kill shot, but sort of right along that time at

684
00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:11,160
Speaker 3: either right when it happened or right after he fell,

685
00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:16,160
Speaker 3: a cop had shot him true romance style, through the

686
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:20,799
Speaker 3: side of his body where there was no protection, no

687
00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:23,640
Speaker 3: protective vest because that stuff is usually like it's on

688
00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:25,759
Speaker 3: your back, it's on your chest, but kind of not

689
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:28,759
Speaker 3: through the side, and he severed his spine and he

690
00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:31,360
Speaker 3: was dead immediately from one of the two wounds.

691
00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:35,200
Speaker 2: So Larry Phillips is now dead one way or another,

692
00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:38,200
Speaker 2: either by his own hand or by the cops shot.

693
00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:41,960
Speaker 2: And that is not the end of things, because mattis

694
00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:44,799
Speaker 2: Ranu is still on the move. He's in his white

695
00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:50,280
Speaker 2: celebrity moving down the street past where Phillips has just died.

696
00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:56,719
Speaker 2: And here's just crazy because as we'll see the LAPD

697
00:38:56,960 --> 00:38:59,920
Speaker 2: is very much fetted after this for having saved nor

698
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:04,479
Speaker 2: Hollywood taken on these guys who outgunned them. But there's

699
00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:06,640
Speaker 2: a really critical point that I think people just moved

700
00:39:06,680 --> 00:39:10,920
Speaker 2: right past. When they were moving up Archwood, this residential street,

701
00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:16,799
Speaker 2: it was not closed off, So people were driving past

702
00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:21,200
Speaker 2: Emil Mattiseranu within feet, like a handful of feet of

703
00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:22,960
Speaker 2: this guy, and they were confused, they didn't know what

704
00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:25,840
Speaker 2: was going on. And he's strapped with like this ak

705
00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:28,680
Speaker 2: driving the white celebrity which now has this tire shot

706
00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:31,560
Speaker 2: out looking for another car, and at least three or

707
00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:35,080
Speaker 2: four pass him before he finally stops and picks one

708
00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:38,240
Speaker 2: and start shooting at the car. And that was a huge,

709
00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:41,879
Speaker 2: huge failure on the LAPD's part because those guys could

710
00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:45,719
Speaker 2: have gone anywhere on Archwood Street and started taking hostages easily.

711
00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:49,200
Speaker 2: What was the failure that they didn't close the street off, Like,

712
00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:51,000
Speaker 2: I don't understand how you can do about they had

713
00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:54,560
Speaker 2: time bank robbery, you could close it off somewhere back

714
00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:58,239
Speaker 2: there there was through traffic still coming down Archwood, like

715
00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:01,080
Speaker 2: right by the bank. If you watch it, it's crazy

716
00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:01,879
Speaker 2: that that's no.

717
00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:03,880
Speaker 3: I no, I just don't. I don't know, man, I

718
00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:06,080
Speaker 3: think that's also Monday morning quarterbacking. I don't know if

719
00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:08,960
Speaker 3: they could have they were in the middle of a shootout.

720
00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:09,719
Speaker 3: I just I don't know.

721
00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:13,200
Speaker 2: I mean, the whole LAPD was focused on this shootout.

722
00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:15,600
Speaker 2: I feel like they could have shut the street down.

723
00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:19,040
Speaker 3: It's just crazy to me. All right, agree to disagree, Okay?

724
00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:21,600
Speaker 3: At any rate, he's firing at cars. He gets in

725
00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:26,480
Speaker 3: this guy's jeep pickup truck, and the guy got injured.

726
00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:28,520
Speaker 3: He was fine. He ran out of there and you know,

727
00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:31,360
Speaker 3: got away at least, and he starts, you know, he

728
00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:32,719
Speaker 3: still thinks he can get out of there. I guess

729
00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:36,839
Speaker 3: he's transferring weapons from that Chevy to the truck, and

730
00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:41,600
Speaker 3: three swat guys drive over there. He comes out again,

731
00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:43,680
Speaker 3: and all of a sudden, there's another shootout on the

732
00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:46,760
Speaker 3: street movie style, with both of them kind of crouched

733
00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:52,000
Speaker 3: behind these cars, and the cops do a very smart thing,

734
00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:55,799
Speaker 3: which is shoot underneath the car, at his feet, at

735
00:40:55,800 --> 00:40:57,920
Speaker 3: his legs, whatever they can hit, and they end up

736
00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:00,000
Speaker 3: hitting him twenty eight times and dropped him.

737
00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:02,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, man, can you imagine taking twenty eight shots in

738
00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:04,440
Speaker 2: your legs and feet?

739
00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:06,040
Speaker 1: I can imagine one.

740
00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:09,120
Speaker 2: He put his hands up, he gave up, he surrendered

741
00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:14,040
Speaker 2: and was laying behind the celebrity. I think in the

742
00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:19,160
Speaker 2: end when they captured him, twelve officers had been injured,

743
00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:23,960
Speaker 2: had been shot somewhere in pretty bad shape. Miraculously all survived.

744
00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:27,720
Speaker 2: Eight bystanders had been injured. All of them survived. Everyone

745
00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:30,239
Speaker 2: in the bank survived, and it turned out that the

746
00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:33,960
Speaker 2: only two people who didn't survive were Larry Phillips and

747
00:41:34,040 --> 00:41:37,759
Speaker 2: Emil Mattiseranu, who ended up bleeding to death from his

748
00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:43,000
Speaker 2: injuries lying behind that chevy celebrity. Isn't that nuts yet, Chuck?

749
00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:47,520
Speaker 2: I think seventeen or eighteen hundred rounds were fired in

750
00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:51,200
Speaker 2: this forty four minute firefight, and only two people died,

751
00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:52,920
Speaker 2: the bank robbers.

752
00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:56,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, And that became a matter of just sort of

753
00:41:56,440 --> 00:42:01,920
Speaker 3: further scrutiny because Mattiserano, you know, he's there, he's bleeding,

754
00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:04,520
Speaker 3: and he says, you know, why don't you put a

755
00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:07,040
Speaker 3: bullet through my head? And when the EMTs show up,

756
00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:09,959
Speaker 3: the cops keep them away, They said, don't come over here.

757
00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:14,680
Speaker 3: EMT has never examined him, and he slowly bled out

758
00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:18,640
Speaker 3: basically over the next hour and died. They were you know,

759
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:22,239
Speaker 3: heavily scrutinized. I think there was an attorney that ended

760
00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:26,160
Speaker 3: up filing a suit on behalf of the kids that said, hey,

761
00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:29,840
Speaker 3: you know, regardless of whether this guy was a bank robber,

762
00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:32,840
Speaker 3: you can't you know, you still have an obligation to

763
00:42:32,880 --> 00:42:35,799
Speaker 3: treat an injured human on the ground as a cop.

764
00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:38,400
Speaker 3: The cops response was like, we didn't know if there

765
00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:41,279
Speaker 3: were other people involved, if they were around, if they

766
00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:43,960
Speaker 3: had a sniper, if they had explosives on their body.

767
00:42:44,239 --> 00:42:46,680
Speaker 3: We didn't want to put those EMTs in danger. And

768
00:42:46,719 --> 00:42:49,920
Speaker 3: in the end they dropped. I'm sorry, it was a

769
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:53,680
Speaker 3: deadlock jury at first, so it was a mistrial, and

770
00:42:53,719 --> 00:42:57,000
Speaker 3: then they decided not to go further with another case

771
00:42:57,040 --> 00:43:00,839
Speaker 3: because they might be countersued for malicious prosecution.

772
00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:05,160
Speaker 2: Well put, did you read the La Times article on that.

773
00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:08,840
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, they really went to town putting this thing together,

774
00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:11,080
Speaker 2: and no one came out looking okay, you.

775
00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:14,720
Speaker 3: Know no, And it was you know, the LA PD

776
00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:18,480
Speaker 3: has always had a checkered reputation, so like at first

777
00:43:18,760 --> 00:43:21,520
Speaker 3: they were heroes because this was all over the news,

778
00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:24,120
Speaker 3: and this was you know a handful of years after

779
00:43:24,200 --> 00:43:26,279
Speaker 3: Rodney King, when they had probably an all time low

780
00:43:26,960 --> 00:43:29,200
Speaker 3: opinion rating, so they were like, look, look at the

781
00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:32,359
Speaker 3: cops like protecting you and putting their lives at risk.

782
00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:35,160
Speaker 3: So it was good for pr at first, but then

783
00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:37,080
Speaker 3: this they let them bleed out in the street for

784
00:43:37,080 --> 00:43:38,960
Speaker 3: an hour. I'm sure a lot of people were like

785
00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:40,759
Speaker 3: good and a lot of people are like, yeah, you

786
00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:41,440
Speaker 3: still can't do that.

787
00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:46,040
Speaker 2: Sure. So one of the other outcomes of this was

788
00:43:46,239 --> 00:43:50,680
Speaker 2: that it changed police forces across the United States forever.

789
00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:56,040
Speaker 2: Like the police realized that they were not equipped for

790
00:43:56,040 --> 00:43:59,480
Speaker 2: something like this to happen in not only Los Angeles

791
00:43:59,560 --> 00:44:02,880
Speaker 2: but every other town in the United States. And in

792
00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:06,680
Speaker 2: the Defense Spending Act, I think of nineteen ninety seven,

793
00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:11,920
Speaker 2: they passed a section called ten thirty three that said

794
00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:16,360
Speaker 2: that the Department of Defense can sell any access armory,

795
00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:21,640
Speaker 2: weapons materiel to local police departments. Now that's a new thing,

796
00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:26,240
Speaker 2: and it turned into what's been roundly considered the militarization

797
00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:31,080
Speaker 2: of the police. That's had all sorts of knock on effects, including,

798
00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:36,680
Speaker 2: according to multiple studies, an increase in death during police shootings.

799
00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:39,960
Speaker 2: And that's a big criticism of this that rather than

800
00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:43,560
Speaker 2: people saying let's reduce the public's access to things like

801
00:44:43,719 --> 00:44:47,480
Speaker 2: assault rifles that can kill tons of people and have

802
00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:51,160
Speaker 2: firefights like this. Instead, the push has been to let's

803
00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:56,239
Speaker 2: arm the cops equally to these criminals that can be

804
00:44:56,400 --> 00:45:00,120
Speaker 2: armed to the teeth as well, to make it even,

805
00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:02,680
Speaker 2: which there's a logic to it, sure, but you could

806
00:45:02,719 --> 00:45:06,399
Speaker 2: also reduce the public's access to those kinds of things

807
00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:08,360
Speaker 2: as well, and that didn't really happen.

808
00:45:09,320 --> 00:45:09,560
Speaker 1: Well.

809
00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:11,239
Speaker 3: One of the good things that came out of it

810
00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:16,880
Speaker 3: was PTSD counseling for police officers was not such a

811
00:45:16,880 --> 00:45:18,760
Speaker 3: big thing at the time, and after this it became

812
00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:21,959
Speaker 3: much more just sort of implemented across the country.

813
00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:25,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, that is a good thing, for sure. Anything else,

814
00:45:25,840 --> 00:45:28,239
Speaker 2: I got nothing else. I think there's in Grand Theft

815
00:45:28,239 --> 00:45:31,120
Speaker 2: Auto five, one of the heists, the Palletto score is

816
00:45:31,160 --> 00:45:35,120
Speaker 2: based on this too. And there's a movie called forty

817
00:45:35,160 --> 00:45:37,480
Speaker 2: four Minutes that was made for TV on FX and

818
00:45:37,520 --> 00:45:42,720
Speaker 2: it's terrible. I bet if you want to know anything

819
00:45:42,840 --> 00:45:46,920
Speaker 2: else about the North Hollywood shootout, there's plenty to see

820
00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:50,680
Speaker 2: and read about that. And while you're reading and seeing

821
00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:53,000
Speaker 2: about the North Hollywood shootout, I think it's time for

822
00:45:53,080 --> 00:45:53,680
Speaker 2: listener man.

823
00:45:56,520 --> 00:46:00,400
Speaker 3: I'm going to call this follow up that I feel

824
00:46:00,440 --> 00:46:03,720
Speaker 3: pretty bad about. We did our podcast episode on Kenton

825
00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:08,400
Speaker 3: Greua Grand Canyon River Adventure not too long ago, and

826
00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:12,840
Speaker 3: we actually heard from his wife, Michelle Grua, who was

827
00:46:14,120 --> 00:46:15,799
Speaker 3: not a stuff you should know listener, but someone told

828
00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:18,239
Speaker 3: her about it. She listened, and she wanted to clear

829
00:46:18,360 --> 00:46:21,200
Speaker 3: up some things and some I'm going to read it.

830
00:46:21,520 --> 00:46:23,239
Speaker 3: It's a little lenkedy, but I feel like we owe

831
00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:26,080
Speaker 3: it to her. Hey, guys, I was surprised to be

832
00:46:26,160 --> 00:46:28,480
Speaker 3: informed by a friend of your podcast about my late

833
00:46:28,560 --> 00:46:32,480
Speaker 3: husband Factor. Yes, our children and I all called him Factor.

834
00:46:32,680 --> 00:46:35,080
Speaker 3: That was his preferred name. I appreciate that you obtained

835
00:46:35,120 --> 00:46:38,000
Speaker 3: most of your information from Kevin's book The Emerald Mile,

836
00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:40,040
Speaker 3: which is for the most part accurate. There are some

837
00:46:40,080 --> 00:46:43,680
Speaker 3: things that you said that are not accurate, and depictions

838
00:46:43,680 --> 00:46:46,200
Speaker 3: of Factor that I'd like to set straight. These things

839
00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:48,480
Speaker 3: are likely only important to me our children into his

840
00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:51,600
Speaker 3: two brothers if they were to ever hear your podcast.

841
00:46:52,040 --> 00:46:54,560
Speaker 3: I can tell that you appreciated his adventurous spirit and

842
00:46:54,600 --> 00:46:56,479
Speaker 3: the grandiosity of the things he did, but I would

843
00:46:56,480 --> 00:46:59,200
Speaker 3: gently suggest that you might consider the feelings of those

844
00:46:59,280 --> 00:47:02,000
Speaker 3: left behind with regard to the way you depict someone.

845
00:47:02,560 --> 00:47:04,720
Speaker 3: He's not just some character and a really cool story.

846
00:47:05,080 --> 00:47:08,640
Speaker 3: He's someone's husband, father, and brother who has sorely missed.

847
00:47:09,080 --> 00:47:12,560
Speaker 3: I do not expect any kind of retraction public retraction.

848
00:47:12,680 --> 00:47:15,240
Speaker 3: I just wanted to let you know about the inaccuracy

849
00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:18,560
Speaker 3: so you could have a more clear picture of him.

850
00:47:18,840 --> 00:47:22,560
Speaker 3: He was the most humble, gracious, generous, respectful, considerate, fear

851
00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:24,840
Speaker 3: soul I've ever met, truly one of a kind and

852
00:47:24,880 --> 00:47:28,160
Speaker 3: the greatest factor in my life. Regarding the description of

853
00:47:28,239 --> 00:47:32,160
Speaker 3: him really liking booze and hiking out to obtain extra liquor,

854
00:47:32,480 --> 00:47:35,359
Speaker 3: the passengers on that particular commercial trip are the ones

855
00:47:35,400 --> 00:47:39,000
Speaker 3: who requested extra booze, and given that there's no delivery

856
00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:42,040
Speaker 3: into the canyon, he offered to hike out and procure

857
00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:45,840
Speaker 3: a resupply for them. Regarding the moccasins, he was a purist,

858
00:47:46,280 --> 00:47:49,040
Speaker 3: and his reasoning was that the ancient Queblins who'd lived

859
00:47:49,080 --> 00:47:51,640
Speaker 3: in the canyon had likely worn moccasins, and he wanted

860
00:47:51,680 --> 00:47:54,320
Speaker 3: to pay homage to them and not have any unfair

861
00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:58,560
Speaker 3: modern advantage like hiking boots. He had scouted the route before,

862
00:47:58,719 --> 00:48:05,200
Speaker 3: and the first through hike attempt he had placed food caches, cases, cases,

863
00:48:05,239 --> 00:48:08,520
Speaker 3: cases for that hike, as well as doing so the

864
00:48:08,560 --> 00:48:11,080
Speaker 3: second time as an insight into his character. He hiked

865
00:48:11,160 --> 00:48:13,560
Speaker 3: back in to remove all of them after the hike,

866
00:48:13,680 --> 00:48:14,400
Speaker 3: leaving no trace.

867
00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:16,400
Speaker 1: You said that he was obsessed.

868
00:48:16,480 --> 00:48:18,640
Speaker 3: If you can say that about someone who smokes that

869
00:48:18,719 --> 00:48:21,040
Speaker 3: much pot, I feel like you may have missed a

870
00:48:21,080 --> 00:48:24,000
Speaker 3: key element of Kenton's character and you're reading about him

871
00:48:24,040 --> 00:48:26,840
Speaker 3: that he had a fierce intellect, an intense focus, and

872
00:48:26,880 --> 00:48:29,360
Speaker 3: once he got ahold of an idea, he ruminated on it,

873
00:48:29,440 --> 00:48:31,440
Speaker 3: turned it over and over in his mind until he

874
00:48:31,480 --> 00:48:34,680
Speaker 3: worked out all the details. Not consistent with the sleepy

875
00:48:34,719 --> 00:48:37,960
Speaker 3: image you conjure up when thinking about a typical Stoner.

876
00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:43,320
Speaker 3: It also bears mentioning that the original idea was Wally Wrists. Wally,

877
00:48:43,400 --> 00:48:45,760
Speaker 3: Rudy and Kenton did the original Speed one, but Wally

878
00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:47,680
Speaker 3: was no longer working on the river in eighty three

879
00:48:48,160 --> 00:48:50,760
Speaker 3: and thus not able to partake this time around.

880
00:48:51,560 --> 00:48:53,960
Speaker 1: Kenton came up with the idea to put.

881
00:48:53,840 --> 00:48:56,480
Speaker 3: A second set of oar locks on the boat so

882
00:48:56,760 --> 00:48:59,160
Speaker 3: you could have two rowing stations to tackle the flat

883
00:48:59,160 --> 00:49:01,839
Speaker 3: water at the far west of the canyon. As far

884
00:49:01,840 --> 00:49:05,319
Speaker 3: as the fine, the fine that was imposed as reportedly

885
00:49:05,760 --> 00:49:08,080
Speaker 3: five hundred dollars. But I have the cancel check to

886
00:49:08,120 --> 00:49:11,080
Speaker 3: the Cocochino County Magistrate in the amount of two hundred

887
00:49:11,080 --> 00:49:14,520
Speaker 3: and fifty dollars paid by Kenton, so your assertion that

888
00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:15,759
Speaker 3: he couldn't afford.

889
00:49:15,560 --> 00:49:16,480
Speaker 1: It is not accurate.

890
00:49:17,080 --> 00:49:20,440
Speaker 3: He never mentioned any imposition of community service to me

891
00:49:20,520 --> 00:49:23,600
Speaker 3: as well, and we are also quite sure of how

892
00:49:23,600 --> 00:49:27,319
Speaker 3: he died. He died not due collision or impact, but

893
00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:32,759
Speaker 3: from the spontaneous a ordit dissection, not an aneurysm. He

894
00:49:32,880 --> 00:49:35,680
Speaker 3: was found unresponsive on the trail by a hiker while

895
00:49:35,719 --> 00:49:38,359
Speaker 3: the kids and I were home awaiting his return. He

896
00:49:38,440 --> 00:49:40,600
Speaker 3: was not dead when the hiker found him. He was

897
00:49:40,600 --> 00:49:44,799
Speaker 3: taken to the local hospital, where resuscitation efforts failed. He

898
00:49:44,960 --> 00:49:47,920
Speaker 3: wasn't laying in a peaceful position. The hiker said he

899
00:49:47,960 --> 00:49:50,279
Speaker 3: was still astride as bike, and it appeared that he

900
00:49:50,280 --> 00:49:52,839
Speaker 3: had just tipped over. Indeed, he had a little cut

901
00:49:52,840 --> 00:49:54,839
Speaker 3: over his ear where his sunglasses dug into the side

902
00:49:54,840 --> 00:49:58,000
Speaker 3: of his head when he landed. As a physician myself,

903
00:49:58,320 --> 00:50:01,040
Speaker 3: I can tell you he was probably in significant chest

904
00:50:01,120 --> 00:50:04,280
Speaker 3: pain and he died about two hundred yards after passing

905
00:50:04,280 --> 00:50:07,120
Speaker 3: through what would have been a busy trailhead parking area.

906
00:50:07,680 --> 00:50:10,840
Speaker 3: So he was probably peddling like hell to get home

907
00:50:10,960 --> 00:50:13,600
Speaker 3: just a couple of miles away, but dissected and lost

908
00:50:13,640 --> 00:50:16,560
Speaker 3: consciousness less than a minute after passing through the lot.

909
00:50:17,000 --> 00:50:19,359
Speaker 3: I only discovered it when he was two hours late

910
00:50:19,400 --> 00:50:22,160
Speaker 3: getting home from the ride and called the hospital where

911
00:50:22,160 --> 00:50:24,080
Speaker 3: I worked to see if they had any Mountain bikers

912
00:50:24,080 --> 00:50:26,640
Speaker 3: that had come in. They said yes, but they weren't

913
00:50:26,640 --> 00:50:28,920
Speaker 3: able to identify him, and that was the last moment

914
00:50:29,239 --> 00:50:31,920
Speaker 3: of true peace that I had. I am glad you

915
00:50:31,920 --> 00:50:34,439
Speaker 3: found a story so compelling. I'm sure he's glad people

916
00:50:34,480 --> 00:50:36,680
Speaker 3: are hearing of it and he doesn't have to do

917
00:50:36,760 --> 00:50:41,120
Speaker 3: the telling himself. But accuracy is important. Please don't paint

918
00:50:41,160 --> 00:50:46,440
Speaker 3: him as a caricature. Best Michelle Grua and I emailed

919
00:50:46,480 --> 00:50:49,040
Speaker 3: her a very long email back, and I felt terrible

920
00:50:49,160 --> 00:50:51,439
Speaker 3: about all this, and she was very sweet and much

921
00:50:51,440 --> 00:50:54,880
Speaker 3: more graceful than I would have been in her position.

922
00:50:54,960 --> 00:50:56,799
Speaker 2: So yeah, I was going to say, I mean, if

923
00:50:56,800 --> 00:50:58,560
Speaker 2: you're going to get taken to task by a living

924
00:50:58,600 --> 00:51:01,480
Speaker 2: relative of someone we profile, all it's about is as

925
00:51:02,160 --> 00:51:03,640
Speaker 2: nice as it can get, for sure.

926
00:51:03,920 --> 00:51:06,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, So thank you Michelle for that, and just publicly,

927
00:51:06,600 --> 00:51:09,040
Speaker 3: I'm sorry for anything we did that costs you any upset.

928
00:51:09,200 --> 00:51:12,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, agreed. It was definitely not our intent to create

929
00:51:12,280 --> 00:51:14,680
Speaker 2: a caricature out of him. That's never our intent. So

930
00:51:14,880 --> 00:51:18,000
Speaker 2: sorry that that happened inadvertently, and thank you for taking

931
00:51:18,040 --> 00:51:20,319
Speaker 2: the time to write all that, and thank you Chuck

932
00:51:20,360 --> 00:51:23,600
Speaker 2: for reading all of it. Certainly, if you want to

933
00:51:23,600 --> 00:51:26,279
Speaker 2: get in touch with us, like Michelle Grua did, you

934
00:51:26,320 --> 00:51:29,319
Speaker 2: can use email as she did, as well send it

935
00:51:29,360 --> 00:51:34,920
Speaker 2: off to stuff Podcasts at iHeartRadio dot com.

936
00:51:36,040 --> 00:51:38,359
Speaker 1: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio.

937
00:51:38,840 --> 00:51:40,919
Speaker 2: For more podcasts my heart Radio, visit

938
00:51:40,960 --> 00:51:44,239
Speaker 1: The iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to

939
00:51:44,239 --> 00:51:45,160
Speaker 1: your favorite shows.