1 00:00:00,680 --> 00:00:04,280 Speaker 1: LinkedIn News. 2 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:08,160 Speaker 2: There have been times I've gone home and I've told 3 00:00:08,160 --> 00:00:09,879 Speaker 2: my mom about some of the things that I'm going through, 4 00:00:09,920 --> 00:00:11,600 Speaker 2: and it's not like she's just like, you know, put 5 00:00:11,640 --> 00:00:13,520 Speaker 2: your big girl panties on and keep going. But she's 6 00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:15,760 Speaker 2: just like, honey, if you had seen what they used 7 00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:17,680 Speaker 2: to put us through in the seventies and eighties, you 8 00:00:17,720 --> 00:00:19,919 Speaker 2: would think that this is a joy walk. And I'm like, 9 00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:22,720 Speaker 2: we don't reward trauma with less trauma. We reward trauma 10 00:00:22,760 --> 00:00:25,440 Speaker 2: with healing. Mommy. That was beautiful. 11 00:00:28,200 --> 00:00:31,080 Speaker 3: From LinkedIn News and I heard podcasts. This is Let's 12 00:00:31,120 --> 00:00:34,159 Speaker 3: Talk Offline, a show about what it takes to thrive 13 00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:38,240 Speaker 3: in the early years of your career without sacrificing your values, 14 00:00:38,400 --> 00:00:39,680 Speaker 3: sanity or sleep. 15 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:44,800 Speaker 2: I'm Gianni Predente and I'm Jamaie Jackson Gadson. Now, look, y'all, 16 00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:47,839 Speaker 2: everyone deserves to work in an environment where they feel safe, 17 00:00:47,920 --> 00:00:51,159 Speaker 2: supported and heard. But unfortunately, I mean, that's just not 18 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:54,040 Speaker 2: always the case. There might be moments in your career 19 00:00:54,080 --> 00:00:58,080 Speaker 2: where you find yourself in what we call a toxic workplace, 20 00:00:58,720 --> 00:01:00,920 Speaker 2: and I mean it could manifest itself in the most 21 00:01:00,920 --> 00:01:05,399 Speaker 2: obvious ways, like bullying or even favoritism or in. 22 00:01:05,360 --> 00:01:08,840 Speaker 3: More subtle ways that might even feel kind of normal, 23 00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:12,240 Speaker 3: like office gossip or feeling burnt out all the time. 24 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:15,560 Speaker 3: And when you're early in your career, possibly working your 25 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:18,680 Speaker 3: first job, you might not even know what a toxic 26 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:21,080 Speaker 3: work environment looks like until you're. 27 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:21,399 Speaker 2: Out of it. 28 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:23,880 Speaker 3: So we're going to break down how to recognize the 29 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:32,240 Speaker 3: signs of an unhealthy workplace and how to navigate it. So, 30 00:01:32,280 --> 00:01:34,000 Speaker 3: if you guys have been listening to the show for 31 00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:37,160 Speaker 3: some time now, you know one of Jamie's favorite analogies 32 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:40,679 Speaker 3: when it comes to jobs is dating delicious. So to 33 00:01:40,800 --> 00:01:43,240 Speaker 3: use that analogy, you know, you could be in a 34 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:46,679 Speaker 3: toxic relationship and not even know it until you get 35 00:01:46,720 --> 00:01:49,520 Speaker 3: into a more loving relationship. I know some of you 36 00:01:49,560 --> 00:01:52,920 Speaker 3: guys are like, yeah, I've been there, and at that 37 00:01:53,040 --> 00:01:55,960 Speaker 3: point you realize like, oh, this is how it's supposed 38 00:01:55,960 --> 00:01:59,040 Speaker 3: to be. The same thing comes to jobs, right when 39 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:01,280 Speaker 3: you're early in your career and you don't have a 40 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:04,280 Speaker 3: lot of experience, you're in that first role and you 41 00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:06,400 Speaker 3: kind of just take this as like the norm, right, 42 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:10,080 Speaker 3: you have nothing to compare that first job too, so 43 00:02:10,480 --> 00:02:13,200 Speaker 3: you don't know what a toxic environment really looks like 44 00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:17,519 Speaker 3: until you're outside of it, or somebody externally is like, hmm, 45 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:19,720 Speaker 3: something fishy is going. 46 00:02:19,480 --> 00:02:22,080 Speaker 2: On, something fish around here. 47 00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:25,680 Speaker 3: You like quite literally don't know any better until you 48 00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:28,079 Speaker 3: move on. So later in the show, we're going to 49 00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:32,239 Speaker 3: bring on an employee relation specialist, Kayla Moncayo, to talk 50 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:35,160 Speaker 3: about how to identify a toxic work situation and how 51 00:02:35,160 --> 00:02:38,440 Speaker 3: to navigate it. But first, Yeah, Jimmy. 52 00:02:38,440 --> 00:02:40,360 Speaker 2: I think we need to kind of like set the 53 00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:42,960 Speaker 2: standard of what a toxic work environment. Let's get some 54 00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:46,240 Speaker 2: definitions out here. Yeah, so, what exactly is a toxic 55 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:49,760 Speaker 2: work environment? Point blank period. It is a negative environment 56 00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:52,600 Speaker 2: where employees might feel unsafe or uncomfortable, and I mean 57 00:02:52,600 --> 00:02:54,440 Speaker 2: it's going to obviously lead to the things that we've 58 00:02:54,480 --> 00:02:58,399 Speaker 2: talked about before, like stress, anxiety, even depression. I mean, honestly, 59 00:02:58,480 --> 00:03:03,120 Speaker 2: super toxic work environments can get really really sticky, very quickly. 60 00:03:03,639 --> 00:03:06,200 Speaker 2: And sometimes it can be caused by one person. It 61 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:07,880 Speaker 2: can be caused by a team, It can be caused 62 00:03:07,919 --> 00:03:09,520 Speaker 2: by a department, It can be caused by the whole 63 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:12,880 Speaker 2: darn thing, all right. It really can come a number 64 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:15,480 Speaker 2: of different ways from a number of different places. But 65 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:18,200 Speaker 2: what I think it's really important to call out is 66 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:21,440 Speaker 2: that it can feel really hard to know whether you're 67 00:03:21,440 --> 00:03:24,160 Speaker 2: in that toxic workplace or not, to your point, because 68 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:27,280 Speaker 2: you might just assume that everything that's happening to you 69 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:30,520 Speaker 2: is super normal. Girl, I can talk about that all 70 00:03:30,639 --> 00:03:33,280 Speaker 2: day long, but I think what's going to be helpful 71 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:36,960 Speaker 2: is thinking of some obvious examples. So some obvious examples 72 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:39,839 Speaker 2: of a toxic work environment would be you experiencing things 73 00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:43,680 Speaker 2: such as bullying or harassment at work, but things that 74 00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:47,200 Speaker 2: may not be as obvious but are still I think 75 00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:49,800 Speaker 2: in the category of toxic work environments are things such as, 76 00:03:50,080 --> 00:03:52,920 Speaker 2: you know, you having a team who doesn't respect your boundaries, 77 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 2: you feeling like your voice isn't being heard, you being 78 00:03:56,840 --> 00:03:59,440 Speaker 2: overworked to the point that it's intruding on your work 79 00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:03,760 Speaker 2: life balance, and so many other different things. And so obviously, 80 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:06,960 Speaker 2: again some of these can just be the team or 81 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:10,120 Speaker 2: the work culture, but that does not negate the fact 82 00:04:10,120 --> 00:04:12,560 Speaker 2: that it can still be toxic and toxic for you. 83 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:15,120 Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, I appreciate you bringing up kind of the 84 00:04:15,200 --> 00:04:17,719 Speaker 3: less obvious signs because I feel like in TV shows 85 00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:22,359 Speaker 3: we see like these toxic workplaces and it's like crazy, 86 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:25,720 Speaker 3: and maybe that is the experience you're having so hopefully 87 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:29,280 Speaker 3: you know, this episode helps you. But I feel like 88 00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:32,880 Speaker 3: a lot of times it's smaller scale and you're kind 89 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:35,880 Speaker 3: of just like sitting around being like hmmm, like something's off. 90 00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:38,359 Speaker 3: When you're early, You're like, who do I go to? 91 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:41,120 Speaker 3: Like do I bring this up? Is this worth mentioning? 92 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:42,800 Speaker 3: Do I just kind of suck it up and like 93 00:04:43,080 --> 00:04:43,680 Speaker 3: deal with it? 94 00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:45,680 Speaker 2: And what I really appreciate is that gen Z is 95 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:49,400 Speaker 2: asking the questions, because I will say, as Millennials, it's 96 00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:51,480 Speaker 2: not that we didn't ask. I think we just had 97 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:52,600 Speaker 2: to sort of accept our lot. 98 00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:54,800 Speaker 3: It was like put your head down and word, yes, 99 00:04:54,839 --> 00:04:55,160 Speaker 3: do it. 100 00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:58,000 Speaker 2: And the thing is is because we had parents who 101 00:04:58,080 --> 00:05:00,360 Speaker 2: were going through even worse things, you know. I mean 102 00:05:00,400 --> 00:05:02,440 Speaker 2: like there have been times I've gone home and I've 103 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:04,040 Speaker 2: told my mom about some of the things that I'm 104 00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:05,960 Speaker 2: going through, and it's not like she's just like, you know, 105 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:07,800 Speaker 2: put your big girl panties on and keep going. But 106 00:05:07,880 --> 00:05:10,080 Speaker 2: she's just like, honey, if you had seen what they 107 00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:12,040 Speaker 2: used to put us through in the seventies and eighties, 108 00:05:12,160 --> 00:05:14,120 Speaker 2: you would think that this is a joy walk. And 109 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:16,600 Speaker 2: I'm like, we don't reward trauma with less trauma. We 110 00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:22,040 Speaker 2: reward trauma with healing. Mommy, that was beautiful, But it's true, 111 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:23,920 Speaker 2: you know, and I think it is a generational thing. 112 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:26,919 Speaker 2: But what I'm hoping people take from this conversation is 113 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:30,120 Speaker 2: that wherever you are, you have the power to ask 114 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:33,599 Speaker 2: yourself is this toxic for me? And if it is, 115 00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:36,400 Speaker 2: how do I equip myself to move on? But gee, 116 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:38,520 Speaker 2: let me ask you, have you ever been in a 117 00:05:38,520 --> 00:05:41,760 Speaker 2: toxic work environment? I mean, the first thing I'm thinking 118 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:43,800 Speaker 2: of is the ice cream shot, but ice cream job. 119 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:45,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, you guys already know if you listened to like 120 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:48,960 Speaker 3: our first episode, I was you know, what would I say? 121 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:51,640 Speaker 3: I was like, Yeah, they just took advantage of me there, 122 00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:54,600 Speaker 3: that was a crazy Yeah, they exploited me when. 123 00:05:54,520 --> 00:05:55,320 Speaker 2: I was looking for it. 124 00:05:56,240 --> 00:05:58,120 Speaker 3: Well, you guys know, this is my first job, and 125 00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:00,920 Speaker 3: this isn't going to be a tell all on LinkedIn 126 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:04,599 Speaker 3: and the toxicity. Now, I honestly haven't really experienced a 127 00:06:04,640 --> 00:06:07,840 Speaker 3: toxic work environment, and I'm very fortunate for that. I 128 00:06:07,880 --> 00:06:12,600 Speaker 3: think I have definitely seen other people endure a toxic 129 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:15,479 Speaker 3: work environment. And the way I kind of know that 130 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:20,080 Speaker 3: is my friends or family will tell me about the 131 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:23,159 Speaker 3: way their bosses or the colleagues are and how work 132 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:26,520 Speaker 3: is you know, unevenly distributed or favoritism stuff like that, 133 00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:29,440 Speaker 3: And I'm like, hmmm, like they say it normal and 134 00:06:29,480 --> 00:06:31,960 Speaker 3: I'm like, wait, that would like so not fly on 135 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:35,000 Speaker 3: my team, right, So it makes me think like, oh, 136 00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:38,320 Speaker 3: you know, you guys might be in that type of situation. 137 00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:41,080 Speaker 3: And some people, a lot of people I know actually 138 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:45,200 Speaker 3: who have been in jobs that they were just completely 139 00:06:45,279 --> 00:06:49,760 Speaker 3: overworked and it was toxic have left and now they are, 140 00:06:50,320 --> 00:06:51,960 Speaker 3: you know, finding their greener pastures. 141 00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:55,160 Speaker 2: Their cortisol levels are probably so much a little puffy 142 00:06:55,200 --> 00:06:55,839 Speaker 2: face for them. 143 00:06:55,880 --> 00:06:57,560 Speaker 3: Oh my god. Even though I haven't been in a 144 00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:00,360 Speaker 3: toxic work environment, my cortisol levels are the roof. 145 00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:03,160 Speaker 2: But we're working on it different systems. 146 00:07:04,320 --> 00:07:06,720 Speaker 3: But what about you, Like, have you experienced a toxic 147 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:11,960 Speaker 3: workplace before. 148 00:07:09,880 --> 00:07:13,720 Speaker 2: My confessional, Yeah, I've I've actually been in multiple toxic 149 00:07:13,760 --> 00:07:16,560 Speaker 2: work environments. But I think what will help, as I 150 00:07:16,600 --> 00:07:20,200 Speaker 2: sort of lay the groundwork here, is to first acknowledge that, 151 00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:24,480 Speaker 2: particularly for people of color, marginalized communities, and specifically black women, 152 00:07:25,080 --> 00:07:27,720 Speaker 2: when we raise our hand and we tell people that 153 00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:31,680 Speaker 2: things are happening, people don't want to believe us. This 154 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:34,440 Speaker 2: is a larger conversation, we can talk about society and 155 00:07:34,440 --> 00:07:37,440 Speaker 2: culture and the expectation of people just carrying things being 156 00:07:37,480 --> 00:07:41,040 Speaker 2: that quote unquote strong black woman trop right. What I 157 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:43,760 Speaker 2: think will be helpful is me also bringing in the 158 00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:45,480 Speaker 2: stats here to show like, this is not just a 159 00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:47,440 Speaker 2: jam experience, this is it. So what I'm gonna do 160 00:07:47,520 --> 00:07:50,480 Speaker 2: is I'm gonna share some stats from some credible sources, 161 00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:53,360 Speaker 2: and I'm also gonna then share some experiences that I've had. 162 00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:57,080 Speaker 2: Let's get let's get locked and loaded. Okay, let's let's 163 00:07:57,120 --> 00:08:03,760 Speaker 2: tighten up the bra So lean In, which if you 164 00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:05,720 Speaker 2: guys are not familiar of lean and Leanin as a 165 00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:09,000 Speaker 2: women's advocacy nonprofit, they did a survey a couple of 166 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:11,280 Speaker 2: years ago looking at the experiences of black women in 167 00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:13,360 Speaker 2: the workforce. And here's a couple of things that they found. 168 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:17,000 Speaker 2: Black women are facing disproportionately high barriers in the workplace. 169 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:21,680 Speaker 2: They're heavily impacted by bias and hiring and promotions. Another 170 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:24,240 Speaker 2: thing that Leanin found was that black women are promoted 171 00:08:24,280 --> 00:08:27,400 Speaker 2: as significantly lower rate than white women at the first 172 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:30,080 Speaker 2: step up to manager. So it's not even that we're 173 00:08:30,160 --> 00:08:35,079 Speaker 2: not being promoted, we're also not being promoted into leadership 174 00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:38,880 Speaker 2: opportunities that you might obviously come with more money. I've 175 00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:42,280 Speaker 2: certainly been in situations like this before where there's always 176 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:45,480 Speaker 2: been this idea of readiness. But then it's interesting because 177 00:08:45,520 --> 00:08:48,679 Speaker 2: then one thing that people fail to think about is, Okay, well, 178 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:51,080 Speaker 2: what happens then when you are promoted as a manager, 179 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:53,960 Speaker 2: as a black woman, how are you protected? Like I 180 00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:56,280 Speaker 2: have been thrown to the wolves before of trying to 181 00:08:56,320 --> 00:08:59,200 Speaker 2: figure out how to navigate certain conversations, how to do things. 182 00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:02,200 Speaker 2: And this is out of just standard first time management. 183 00:09:02,679 --> 00:09:05,280 Speaker 2: I mean, and I've actually had people report to me 184 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:07,520 Speaker 2: and before who did not want to report to a 185 00:09:07,559 --> 00:09:11,120 Speaker 2: black woman whoa yes like and have said like they 186 00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:15,120 Speaker 2: don't feel comfortable reporting to people who they can't relate to, 187 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:18,400 Speaker 2: And I was like, oh, okay, so well what do 188 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:21,520 Speaker 2: you mean by that? Yeah, it's interesting because Lena also 189 00:09:21,559 --> 00:09:23,520 Speaker 2: says that black women are less likely than white women 190 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:25,680 Speaker 2: to say that their managers give them chances to manage 191 00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:29,120 Speaker 2: people in projects, provide opportunities to showcase their work, or 192 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:34,120 Speaker 2: help them navigate organizational politics. It's a lot because you're 193 00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:36,440 Speaker 2: trying to navigate these politics, first of all, as a 194 00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:38,920 Speaker 2: woman in corporate America. But then also when you have 195 00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:42,240 Speaker 2: additional layers in that you're trying to figure out, Okay, 196 00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:45,040 Speaker 2: well how do I create allies? And unfortunately a lot 197 00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:46,440 Speaker 2: of people will just be like, oh, well, you just 198 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:50,040 Speaker 2: have to figure it out. This one is one that 199 00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:51,960 Speaker 2: really really touched me. And this is like sort of 200 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:53,600 Speaker 2: like the biggest one I think when I've been thinking 201 00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:56,040 Speaker 2: about my career in like the toxic work environments I've 202 00:09:56,080 --> 00:09:59,760 Speaker 2: been in. They've also shared that, you know, black women 203 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:02,760 Speaker 2: experience more microaggressions than other groups of women, and we're 204 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:04,760 Speaker 2: also three to four times as likely as white women 205 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:08,199 Speaker 2: to be subjected to disrespectful and quote unquote othering comments 206 00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:11,840 Speaker 2: and behavior. I have dealt with this in my career 207 00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:14,160 Speaker 2: many times. I mean I've had people ask me is 208 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:16,800 Speaker 2: my hair real? I have you know, at some point 209 00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:19,120 Speaker 2: I've worn certain clothes in the office and they're like, well, 210 00:10:19,120 --> 00:10:23,280 Speaker 2: how can you afford that? You know, I've had people 211 00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:27,320 Speaker 2: before say things like oh, you're you're so educated, or 212 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:30,040 Speaker 2: you sound so smart for a black girl. Like people 213 00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:34,959 Speaker 2: have said some wild af things. And it's interesting because 214 00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:37,800 Speaker 2: when I was younger, I used to obviously just get 215 00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:40,800 Speaker 2: very offended and angry about this, like what is it 216 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:44,680 Speaker 2: about being an educated black woman that people can't conceptualize? 217 00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:46,720 Speaker 2: And I soon learned that, you know, there's so many 218 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:51,240 Speaker 2: things to blame for that society, media, cultural, you know, literacy, 219 00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:55,520 Speaker 2: like just people being exposed to things. But I soon 220 00:10:55,679 --> 00:10:59,480 Speaker 2: learned that it was their own incompetence and ignorance that 221 00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:01,360 Speaker 2: really kind of of then they would put back on 222 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:04,640 Speaker 2: me to sort of like say, like, oh, I didn't 223 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:07,079 Speaker 2: know that a black girl could have a master's degree 224 00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:09,680 Speaker 2: or that she could carry herself in these worlds. It's 225 00:11:09,679 --> 00:11:12,760 Speaker 2: frustrating that you have to be two, three, four times 226 00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:15,199 Speaker 2: as good to even just get a fraction of the respect. 227 00:11:15,559 --> 00:11:18,320 Speaker 2: When I was younger, I couldn't leave toxic work environments. 228 00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:20,040 Speaker 2: I had to figure out how to pay rent. Yeah, 229 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:23,240 Speaker 2: and the only times that I felt empowered to do 230 00:11:23,280 --> 00:11:25,720 Speaker 2: that usually is when I had another job lined up. 231 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:28,640 Speaker 2: There have been jobs I've left because it was taking 232 00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:30,240 Speaker 2: such a toll on my mental health. I was going 233 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:33,040 Speaker 2: to the hospital because I was having such terrible panic attacks, 234 00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:37,320 Speaker 2: and even like I won't say how recently, but I've 235 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:39,640 Speaker 2: even had to over the last couple of years figure out, 236 00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:42,160 Speaker 2: like this job is not going to kill me. And 237 00:11:42,559 --> 00:11:45,440 Speaker 2: that is the sad reality of what you have to 238 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:47,679 Speaker 2: ask yourself when you get in toxic work about how 239 00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:51,800 Speaker 2: much are you willing to take? And nobody can really 240 00:11:51,840 --> 00:11:54,000 Speaker 2: tell you that. But I do want you to know, 241 00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:56,760 Speaker 2: anyone who is listening to this episode that if you 242 00:11:57,040 --> 00:12:00,400 Speaker 2: are hearing anything that I'm saying and you're like, wow, 243 00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:05,160 Speaker 2: this kind of feels like what I'm feeling or I 244 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:07,439 Speaker 2: feel seen in this, I want you to know that 245 00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:10,760 Speaker 2: you have two work besties, Gihn and I who are 246 00:12:10,800 --> 00:12:13,920 Speaker 2: going to stand with you and we're going to help 247 00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:16,239 Speaker 2: make sure that you have all the resource. I'm getting emotional, 248 00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:20,319 Speaker 2: it's it's such a sucky thing, but I really hope 249 00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:22,720 Speaker 2: that you know, at the end of the day, you 250 00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:25,480 Speaker 2: choose you, because that's really all you have to do. 251 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:33,720 Speaker 3: Look, these are really tough conversations. Luckily we're bringing in 252 00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:36,960 Speaker 3: employee relations expert Kayla Manco to talk about what you 253 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:40,520 Speaker 3: can do if you're facing a toxic work situation. That's 254 00:12:40,559 --> 00:12:41,600 Speaker 3: after the break. 255 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:51,840 Speaker 2: So a toxic workforce, sometimes I think, is not as 256 00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:54,480 Speaker 2: black and white as we wanted to see. So this 257 00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:57,959 Speaker 2: week G and I are bringing in another heavy hitter, 258 00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:01,040 Speaker 2: someone who's going to talk to us all about toxic 259 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:05,520 Speaker 2: workforces and hopefully how we can avoid them or navigate them. Giana, 260 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:08,040 Speaker 2: who do we have this week? Today? 261 00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:10,880 Speaker 3: We're chatting with Kayla macaio. She's the founder of Let 262 00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:15,160 Speaker 3: there BEHR, a human resources consulting firm dedicated to supporting 263 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:19,320 Speaker 3: employees and HR professionals. Kayla is an employee relations expert 264 00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:22,880 Speaker 3: with over thirteen years of experience working in human resources. So, 265 00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:25,839 Speaker 3: you guys, she has seen it all. She's helped guide 266 00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:29,000 Speaker 3: employees through toxic work environments, and we're so excited to 267 00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:31,800 Speaker 3: have her on today to share all those insights. Kayla, 268 00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:32,800 Speaker 3: Welcome to the show. 269 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:36,040 Speaker 1: Hey Kyle, Hi, thank you so much for having me. 270 00:13:36,679 --> 00:13:40,160 Speaker 2: Kayla, we are so excited to have you. So I'm 271 00:13:40,160 --> 00:13:43,240 Speaker 2: going to start this conversation off by talking about what 272 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:47,959 Speaker 2: a toxic work environment is versus a hostile one. Can 273 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:49,320 Speaker 2: you help us explain the difference. 274 00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:54,520 Speaker 4: Yeah, So they're different in a couple ways, but sometimes 275 00:13:54,559 --> 00:13:57,640 Speaker 4: one leads to the other. So a hostile work environment 276 00:13:57,760 --> 00:14:01,240 Speaker 4: is actually a legal term, right. It's a space where 277 00:14:01,280 --> 00:14:04,960 Speaker 4: you can sue your employer because of the environment. And 278 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:09,600 Speaker 4: typically speaking, a hostile work environment says you are unable 279 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:12,760 Speaker 4: to perform your job duties because you're being harassed or 280 00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:16,199 Speaker 4: discriminated against. And a lot of the times hostile work 281 00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:19,680 Speaker 4: environment has to center around what we call a protected class. 282 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:23,240 Speaker 4: Are you being harassed or discriminated against because of your gender, 283 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:27,920 Speaker 4: your sexual orientation, race, etc. A toxic work environment, though, 284 00:14:28,040 --> 00:14:30,440 Speaker 4: is a little bit different in that number one can't 285 00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 4: sue your employer for a toxic work environment doesn't mean 286 00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:35,360 Speaker 4: it's not as awful as a hostile It just means 287 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:38,000 Speaker 4: that our laws haven't caught up, right. But a toxic 288 00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:44,560 Speaker 4: work environment typically centers around bullying dysfunction, just like really 289 00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:48,520 Speaker 4: bad vibes that absolutely impact your mental health. And so 290 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:52,760 Speaker 4: we're looking toxic wise at that dysfunction and certainly at 291 00:14:52,840 --> 00:14:56,240 Speaker 4: the bullying and just kind of mean girl things that 292 00:14:56,280 --> 00:14:56,880 Speaker 4: tend to happen. 293 00:14:57,840 --> 00:15:00,400 Speaker 3: You mentioned a few signs of a toxic workplace, like 294 00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:03,800 Speaker 3: one being bullying, which I think if you're in that environment, 295 00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:07,040 Speaker 3: you're like, Okay, that's pretty obvious. But I'm sure there 296 00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:09,560 Speaker 3: are a lot of less obvious signs that you kind 297 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:14,200 Speaker 3: of think are normal until you leave or somebody external 298 00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:17,480 Speaker 3: says that should not be happening. So what are some 299 00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:19,960 Speaker 3: less obvious signs of a toxic workplace. 300 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:24,480 Speaker 4: Yeah, what I want to let anybody entering the workforce 301 00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:30,000 Speaker 4: know is the way you feel is important. So if 302 00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:34,120 Speaker 4: you are feeling like I'm nervous to get to work 303 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:36,640 Speaker 4: every day, not because the work is challenging, but because 304 00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:39,080 Speaker 4: i don't know how I'm going to be treated, just 305 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:40,320 Speaker 4: lean into that, I think. 306 00:15:40,360 --> 00:15:41,000 Speaker 1: Just trust that. 307 00:15:41,160 --> 00:15:44,600 Speaker 4: But some of those subtle signs that tend to come 308 00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:47,520 Speaker 4: as a feeling are going to be Are you being 309 00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:51,640 Speaker 4: spoken to in a condescending way on a regular basis, 310 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:54,880 Speaker 4: that's a big one. Another sign of a toxic work 311 00:15:54,960 --> 00:15:57,960 Speaker 4: environment is a cliche, but their clicks. 312 00:15:58,320 --> 00:15:59,520 Speaker 1: Now, let me be clear. 313 00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:03,000 Speaker 4: I think that's really important to have certain social groups 314 00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:06,280 Speaker 4: at work, But when they start to create an identity 315 00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:10,480 Speaker 4: around bullying or bullying type behavior, that's another subtle sign. 316 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:12,960 Speaker 4: The last one I'll say that I think is really 317 00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:18,640 Speaker 4: really important is the types of relationships within the hierarchy. 318 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:23,120 Speaker 4: The way in which the layers in your hierarchy, if 319 00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:26,640 Speaker 4: you have them are communicating, whether they're short in their 320 00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:30,640 Speaker 4: emails or you know, their slack messages or team messages 321 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:35,320 Speaker 4: feel harsh, that is another really subtle way of not 322 00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:39,480 Speaker 4: just the environment, but what you're going to continue to experience. 323 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:41,760 Speaker 4: You might have a great boss, but your boss's boss 324 00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:43,720 Speaker 4: might be a total jerk, and that's still a toxic 325 00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:44,400 Speaker 4: work environment. 326 00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:48,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, you mentioned like maybe you're going to 327 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:51,080 Speaker 3: work and you're feeling nervous and you get there and 328 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:53,960 Speaker 3: maybe it's like a little clique and maybe you even 329 00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:57,720 Speaker 3: see outright bullying when you're early in your career. I 330 00:16:57,720 --> 00:17:01,360 Speaker 3: can imagine I would kind of be observed and being like, Okay, 331 00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:04,399 Speaker 3: it's anybody else seeing this? Like who should you be 332 00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:06,760 Speaker 3: turning to if you're starting to pick up on these signs? 333 00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:10,359 Speaker 4: I think that depends on ashing things. The first thing 334 00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:12,720 Speaker 4: I'll say is someone who's been in HR for as 335 00:17:12,760 --> 00:17:15,000 Speaker 4: long as I have is HR is not always your friend. 336 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:17,520 Speaker 4: So I'm always really hesitant to say turn to HR 337 00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:20,400 Speaker 4: if you're noticing these things, because I think, unfortunately that's 338 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:23,359 Speaker 4: a company by company basis. The hope is that you 339 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:26,159 Speaker 4: can go to your manager, to your boss. If you 340 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:28,320 Speaker 4: can't go to your manager or your boss though, and 341 00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:31,240 Speaker 4: HR isn't an option, or you don't trust HR, I 342 00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:33,920 Speaker 4: think it's really really important that you have some sort 343 00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:37,960 Speaker 4: of communication with somebody that's outside of the organization. So 344 00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:41,840 Speaker 4: whether it's a friend or a loved one, a partner, 345 00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:45,720 Speaker 4: it's important that you talk to somebody that isn't face 346 00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:48,400 Speaker 4: to face and say, hey, here's what I'm experiencing. 347 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:49,440 Speaker 1: Is this normal? 348 00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:52,600 Speaker 4: When you get that outside perspective, much like when you're 349 00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:55,800 Speaker 4: in a romantic relationship and you're starting to ask your 350 00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:58,960 Speaker 4: friends like, hey, is this normal, it's really important for 351 00:17:59,040 --> 00:18:01,159 Speaker 4: you to start getting peaceeople that are outside of the 352 00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:04,720 Speaker 4: scope of the behavior or outside of the workforce if 353 00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:07,800 Speaker 4: your manager or your HR partner is not available. 354 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:11,879 Speaker 2: I really appreciate you mentioning this, Kayla, because over my 355 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:15,840 Speaker 2: career I have not always seen HR as a partner 356 00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:20,560 Speaker 2: because naturally, as a black woman coming in talking about 357 00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:23,720 Speaker 2: toxic workforce is it's almost like okay, you know, and 358 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:26,439 Speaker 2: it's sunny outside, and it's like, okay, well, how do 359 00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:30,720 Speaker 2: you navigate? So I appreciate your honesty because I think 360 00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:33,520 Speaker 2: what's so important is that no matter where you are 361 00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:35,680 Speaker 2: in your career, you have to also like look at 362 00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:37,760 Speaker 2: for yourself right, and you need to make sure that 363 00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:40,199 Speaker 2: you have a network of people who you can lean on. 364 00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:42,919 Speaker 2: But let's say you feel like you're in a toxic 365 00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:47,240 Speaker 2: working situation, you know what documentation should you be gathering. 366 00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:47,399 Speaker 3: Like. 367 00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:49,880 Speaker 2: For example, let's say Gianna is in her first big 368 00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:54,359 Speaker 2: girl job and she's like, someone doesn't seem right. What 369 00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:58,119 Speaker 2: should she start documenting to protect herself, especially if the 370 00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:01,720 Speaker 2: working situation potentially from toxic to hostile. 371 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:03,080 Speaker 1: That's a great question. 372 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:08,040 Speaker 4: I first want to say and validate your own experiences 373 00:19:08,119 --> 00:19:09,760 Speaker 4: as a black woman with HR. 374 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:11,359 Speaker 1: I just want to hold space for that. 375 00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:14,399 Speaker 4: I'm a Mexican woman in HR, and I've been treated 376 00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:19,160 Speaker 4: really poorly by HR, so I think just anybody listening, 377 00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:21,960 Speaker 4: and especially you as a co host, I want to 378 00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:24,760 Speaker 4: hold space for that and apologize like I wouldn't do it, 379 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:27,440 Speaker 4: but my kind my people did, and I'm sorry for that. 380 00:19:28,119 --> 00:19:28,720 Speaker 2: Thank you, Kayle. 381 00:19:29,359 --> 00:19:29,879 Speaker 1: Of course. 382 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:34,800 Speaker 4: Yeah, when you're starting to experience these signs of toxic 383 00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:38,800 Speaker 4: work environment, documentation is key, so thank you for bringing 384 00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:43,680 Speaker 4: that up. There's a couple things I want to drill into. 385 00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:45,200 Speaker 1: People who are just starting in the workforce. 386 00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:49,360 Speaker 4: The first is when you are having to document anything 387 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:53,000 Speaker 4: like this, you need to be documenting it on your 388 00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:56,480 Speaker 4: own server. I want you to create a Google doc 389 00:19:56,560 --> 00:19:59,199 Speaker 4: in your own personal Gmail, and I want you to 390 00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:03,480 Speaker 4: start doc documenting things in that space. The second is 391 00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:07,080 Speaker 4: it's important for you when you're documenting to get as 392 00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:12,200 Speaker 4: many facts as possible. Your employer, the law, anybody. They 393 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:14,840 Speaker 4: are looking for the facts that have led to spaces. 394 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:19,359 Speaker 4: So I tell people date time, like who, when, where 395 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:22,879 Speaker 4: were people around. Once you have those facts sort of 396 00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:25,240 Speaker 4: written out in this Google doc, that's when you can 397 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:29,120 Speaker 4: pull on how you felt. I felt unmotivated, I felt scared, 398 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:33,159 Speaker 4: I felt intimidated. Adding the emotions in after listing the 399 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:37,160 Speaker 4: facts is really really key and crucial. But I find 400 00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:40,919 Speaker 4: that if we don't separate the two, our documentation just 401 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:43,720 Speaker 4: tends to be a letter about how hurt we are 402 00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:49,199 Speaker 4: instead of a guide or a chronological account of what 403 00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:51,760 Speaker 4: has been happening. And then the last thing I'll say 404 00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:55,240 Speaker 4: is when you are documenting something, it is key to 405 00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:58,879 Speaker 4: document it as quickly as possible after the incidents have happened. 406 00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:02,520 Speaker 4: Everybody can see a car accident or an argument in 407 00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:05,640 Speaker 4: the break room, and everybody's opinion about it or perception 408 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:08,480 Speaker 4: of it is different, right, And so if you're able 409 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:12,679 Speaker 4: to get it out of your brain and onto paper 410 00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:16,800 Speaker 4: the soonest as possible, you're going to have the most 411 00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:20,919 Speaker 4: factual account, and you can also really show, hey, this 412 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:23,399 Speaker 4: event happened at noon and by twelve twenty eight, like 413 00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:26,119 Speaker 4: I'm time stamping it. So here's the date, here's the 414 00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:28,720 Speaker 4: time I'm writing it, here's when it happened, here are 415 00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:30,560 Speaker 4: the facts, and here's how it impacted me. 416 00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:34,239 Speaker 3: So let's say, in this hypothetical situation, like I have 417 00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:37,320 Speaker 3: all the documentation I need and I feel like the 418 00:21:37,359 --> 00:21:40,199 Speaker 3: next step is going to my manager because I have 419 00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:43,800 Speaker 3: a good relationship with that person. How do you approach 420 00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:46,840 Speaker 3: that conversation with your manager when you do consider them 421 00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:47,600 Speaker 3: to be an ally. 422 00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:53,960 Speaker 4: I recommend always starting out as informal as possible and 423 00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:56,720 Speaker 4: not say hey, I've been documenting this, but say hey, 424 00:21:56,760 --> 00:21:58,800 Speaker 4: there's some stuff I want to talk to you about, 425 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:05,880 Speaker 4: and it is impacting how I work, it's impacting my experience. 426 00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:09,920 Speaker 4: Here are you open to talking about that? What I'm 427 00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:12,359 Speaker 4: trying to do is collaborate with you. It's me and 428 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:15,959 Speaker 4: my manager against the problem. And if they want specific examples, 429 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:17,760 Speaker 4: and you can say, well, i've been writing this down, 430 00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:19,520 Speaker 4: are you okay? If I pull that up, can kind 431 00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:23,360 Speaker 4: of talk through it together, but just go into it 432 00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:26,560 Speaker 4: with this informal you know, tone, go into it with 433 00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:29,520 Speaker 4: you could even say this is probably really designer manager. Hey, 434 00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:31,600 Speaker 4: I'm having some issues and I know it's you and 435 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:34,200 Speaker 4: me against work issues, and so I'm hoping that you can, 436 00:22:34,359 --> 00:22:36,760 Speaker 4: you know, collaborate with me on how to make this better. 437 00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:39,439 Speaker 3: I love that language, and I love the idea of 438 00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:42,880 Speaker 3: bringing in your manager as a partner to help resolve 439 00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:47,600 Speaker 3: whatever issues you're experience experiencing. But of course, like people 440 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:50,640 Speaker 3: will be in situations where their manager isn't their biggest cheerleader, 441 00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:53,439 Speaker 3: and maybe their manager isn't going to help them resolve 442 00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:56,520 Speaker 3: the problem. And that brings us to our listener question 443 00:22:56,560 --> 00:22:59,360 Speaker 3: for this week. So this is our segment Dear work Bestie, 444 00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:02,280 Speaker 3: where we answer questions from people who listen to the show, 445 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:05,960 Speaker 3: And given the sensitive nature of today's listener question, we're 446 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:08,879 Speaker 3: going to keep our work best anonymous and read their question. 447 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:12,680 Speaker 3: I'm a recent grad who's been dealing with workplace harassment 448 00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:16,040 Speaker 3: issues at my new job. Some coworkers have belittled me 449 00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:19,800 Speaker 3: and even made some explicit comments within my own department. 450 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:23,840 Speaker 3: A specific coworker has made me feel excluded. I feel 451 00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:27,120 Speaker 3: like I've been put in an unwelcoming situation and When 452 00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:29,600 Speaker 3: I've brought up the issue to my team leader, they 453 00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:31,840 Speaker 3: put the blame on me for others not doing their 454 00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:36,080 Speaker 3: rules properly. They even told me to quote unquote man up. 455 00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:39,560 Speaker 3: Would the next best step be reaching out to HR? 456 00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:43,320 Speaker 3: If so, how can I prepare for that conversation and 457 00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:45,760 Speaker 3: should I expect consequences? 458 00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:50,840 Speaker 4: Well, if you are ready to go to HR, I 459 00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:54,560 Speaker 4: recommend a few things. If you haven't documented, I would 460 00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:57,919 Speaker 4: spend some time writing out the instances with quotes like 461 00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:01,199 Speaker 4: you just did when you wrote in so that you 462 00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:04,560 Speaker 4: can give as many facts as possible to HR when 463 00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:07,720 Speaker 4: you are writing that documentation. It would also be helpful 464 00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:10,800 Speaker 4: for you to write the days and or how many 465 00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:14,239 Speaker 4: times you've approached your manager about this. HR needs to 466 00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:17,520 Speaker 4: know that you went, you tried to resolve this, it 467 00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:21,720 Speaker 4: hasn't been resolved, and now you're escalating the situation. The 468 00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:25,359 Speaker 4: last thing I'll say before I jump into potential consequences 469 00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:32,280 Speaker 4: is this should feel really tough, and so when you're 470 00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:35,520 Speaker 4: preparing your documentation when you ask to meet with HR, 471 00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:39,720 Speaker 4: I just want you to know it's okay to feel 472 00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:42,199 Speaker 4: the way that you're feeling. You should still attempt it. 473 00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:46,000 Speaker 4: You're not doing anything wrong. When we talk consequences, the 474 00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:49,919 Speaker 4: legal term for that is retaliation. So legally you should 475 00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:52,840 Speaker 4: be and are protected from being treated differently when you 476 00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:55,879 Speaker 4: bring a complaint. That doesn't mean that you're not going 477 00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:59,760 Speaker 4: to be retaliated against. So what I would ask your 478 00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:03,119 Speaker 4: a R team member is can I have a copy 479 00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:08,120 Speaker 4: of the retaliation policy? And what is the process for 480 00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:11,080 Speaker 4: me to come to you if I feel I am 481 00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:16,200 Speaker 4: being retaliated against. Once you start using that word, HR 482 00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:19,480 Speaker 4: perks up. HR has to start looking out for you. 483 00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:23,400 Speaker 4: HR has to start coaching your boss. And once you're 484 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:27,119 Speaker 4: done with that conversation, this is key if you remember 485 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:31,760 Speaker 4: nothing else, I want you to email your HR partner 486 00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:36,399 Speaker 4: a recap of your conversation. If you don't, it is 487 00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:40,760 Speaker 4: so easy for them to manipulate or why or say 488 00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:43,080 Speaker 4: that you know it didn't come off as serious to 489 00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:45,320 Speaker 4: me as the HR partner, I didn't think it was 490 00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:49,040 Speaker 4: that serious. Send that recap email. When you send that 491 00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:52,640 Speaker 4: recap email, blind copy or personal email, I. 492 00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:55,200 Speaker 3: Really appreciate you sharing all of this because you know, 493 00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:58,679 Speaker 3: when you think HR is there to one thousand percent 494 00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:02,840 Speaker 3: be your supports as them, knowing that still things can 495 00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:05,679 Speaker 3: kind of fall through the cracks, it feels like should 496 00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:08,520 Speaker 3: I even go? Is it even worth it? But the 497 00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:12,640 Speaker 3: idea of following up and recapping is so smart because 498 00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:15,840 Speaker 3: it's just another document, It's another receipt that you have, 499 00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:19,600 Speaker 3: because these can be really sticky situation. So I appreciate 500 00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:20,360 Speaker 3: you sharing all of that. 501 00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:23,320 Speaker 2: So, Okaylen, I want to round out this interview by 502 00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:26,560 Speaker 2: talking about what our work besties can do to vet 503 00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:29,439 Speaker 2: a possible employer when they're on the job hunt, Like 504 00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:33,119 Speaker 2: what should you be looking out for? What questions should 505 00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:36,080 Speaker 2: they be asking in the job interview to gauge if 506 00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:39,639 Speaker 2: a company or a team's work culture could potentially be toxic. 507 00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:44,600 Speaker 4: So I think what's important when we're talking about this 508 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:50,240 Speaker 4: is to recognize that I am coming from a place 509 00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:53,800 Speaker 4: of privilege when I talk about this, because I get 510 00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:56,880 Speaker 4: the privilege of being selected in what job I want. 511 00:26:57,040 --> 00:27:00,320 Speaker 4: And so if you are in a space where you 512 00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:02,560 Speaker 4: just need to accept a job, I just want to honor, 513 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:05,040 Speaker 4: like it's okay, the economy is tough. 514 00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:07,840 Speaker 1: I've never spent more money on coffee in my life. 515 00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:09,200 Speaker 4: And if you've got to accept a job, accept the 516 00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:12,200 Speaker 4: job right and then come to me and I'll help 517 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:13,720 Speaker 4: you make sure that like, I don't know, we sue 518 00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:14,800 Speaker 4: your job if they're awful. 519 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:19,320 Speaker 5: But in general, the first thing that you want to 520 00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:25,000 Speaker 5: look for is how diverse is their leadership team. 521 00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:28,119 Speaker 4: And I'm not just talking diversity by race. I'm talking 522 00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:31,760 Speaker 4: diversity by gender. I am talking any other you know, 523 00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:35,040 Speaker 4: things that you can see on the surface. The next 524 00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:39,360 Speaker 4: is do they create space for you to interview them 525 00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:42,400 Speaker 4: as much as they are interviewing you. I know companies 526 00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:44,439 Speaker 4: that say we have an hour, I'm only talking for 527 00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:46,280 Speaker 4: thirty minutes, and then I want you to ask as 528 00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:48,800 Speaker 4: many questions as you want in thirty minutes. So if 529 00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:51,600 Speaker 4: they are leaving five minutes or ten minutes for you 530 00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:55,200 Speaker 4: to ask questions, there's some toxicity that they're probably trying 531 00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:58,399 Speaker 4: to hide, mostly because that means that they do not 532 00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:02,920 Speaker 4: value the fact that you are interviewing them. To another 533 00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:05,439 Speaker 4: space that's going to give you something is when you 534 00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:07,560 Speaker 4: were talking about the job description. 535 00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:13,480 Speaker 1: Anything that says family, work hard, play hard, run what 536 00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:14,600 Speaker 1: I'm out. 537 00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:19,800 Speaker 4: Anything that says like we're a fast paced team. Like 538 00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:24,840 Speaker 4: fast paced team is also just like this startup word 539 00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:26,800 Speaker 4: that I'm like, whoa whoa whoa whoa, Like why do 540 00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:29,160 Speaker 4: we got to be so fast, you know, so that 541 00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:33,359 Speaker 4: is a really big sign. Just chill, you know, like 542 00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:35,880 Speaker 4: we're not most of the time, we're not saving lives. 543 00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:38,280 Speaker 4: We're corporate girlies. Like I'm saving no one's life. I 544 00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:39,760 Speaker 4: don't need to be fast paced by any of that. 545 00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:41,440 Speaker 1: The final thing I'll. 546 00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:44,880 Speaker 4: Say when you're interviewing and really trying to find like 547 00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:49,200 Speaker 4: if it's toxic, is one question that I ask any 548 00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:52,080 Speaker 4: person in an interview that is either going to be 549 00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:57,760 Speaker 4: my manager or an equal, and that question is when 550 00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:00,720 Speaker 4: was the last time that you apologize to body at work? 551 00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:02,360 Speaker 1: And how did that go? 552 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:04,719 Speaker 2: That's a good one, Spicy. 553 00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:07,040 Speaker 4: When I ask people this as a candidate, if I'm 554 00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:09,640 Speaker 4: interviewing for a job and I ask that, I say, 555 00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:13,040 Speaker 4: I don't need to know what was the reason behind 556 00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:14,800 Speaker 4: why you had to apologize because we don't know each 557 00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:16,040 Speaker 4: other that well. I don't want you to feel like 558 00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:18,960 Speaker 4: you have to get vulnerable when you ask that question, 559 00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:21,040 Speaker 4: you need to think of two things. Number one, how 560 00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:23,440 Speaker 4: long did it take them to respond? If they don't 561 00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:26,160 Speaker 4: have something off the top of their head, they're not 562 00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:28,400 Speaker 4: going to be a team that is going to be 563 00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:32,280 Speaker 4: a healthy team. A healthy team recognizes that We step 564 00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:35,240 Speaker 4: on people's toes weekly, and you got to apologize for that, 565 00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:38,120 Speaker 4: and you got to be able to apologize quick and 566 00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:41,920 Speaker 4: forget quick in authentic ways. The next thing is how 567 00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:43,880 Speaker 4: do they respond, Oh, yeah, I sent an email, I 568 00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:46,520 Speaker 4: sent a slack I no, no, no. 569 00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:48,640 Speaker 1: I need to see effort. 570 00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:53,400 Speaker 4: I need to see a physical effort towards an apology 571 00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:55,760 Speaker 4: to know that this is not a toxic work environment. 572 00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:57,720 Speaker 1: So we've got a few things about like. 573 00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:00,280 Speaker 4: Look online when you're researching, We've got some word and 574 00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:02,880 Speaker 4: the job description or posting. And then I think that 575 00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:06,800 Speaker 4: question is really key to understanding what kind of culture 576 00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:07,360 Speaker 4: you're joining. 577 00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:09,880 Speaker 2: That's so great. I love that there's so many different 578 00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:13,080 Speaker 2: things people can do preemptively as you're going into these 579 00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:16,480 Speaker 2: interviews that will help you identify the signs as to 580 00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:18,920 Speaker 2: if this is even a culture or a company that 581 00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:21,440 Speaker 2: you want to work for. Kayla, thank you so much. 582 00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:24,160 Speaker 2: I feel like you've dropped so many gems today and 583 00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:26,720 Speaker 2: we are so thankful for that. Obviously, we want to 584 00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:28,560 Speaker 2: keep this party going. You can hang out with me 585 00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:31,840 Speaker 2: and Gianna anytime, and our work besties. Speaking of which, 586 00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:33,560 Speaker 2: where can our work besties find you? 587 00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:36,560 Speaker 1: I love to meet more of the work besties. 588 00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:40,800 Speaker 4: They can find me and my HR firm at letthirvhr 589 00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:43,440 Speaker 4: dot com and that will have the links to all 590 00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:47,800 Speaker 4: of our socials, our TikTok, our Instagram, everything, but letthirvhr 591 00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:49,360 Speaker 4: dot com is where you can connect with us. 592 00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:51,440 Speaker 2: Awesome you guys. All of the information will be down 593 00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:53,360 Speaker 2: on the show description, so make sure you definitely check 594 00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:53,800 Speaker 2: that out. 595 00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:56,480 Speaker 3: Thank you, Kayla, Thank you so much. 596 00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:57,280 Speaker 1: It was a pleasure. 597 00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:04,240 Speaker 2: Kayla dropped a lot of great advice. And if this 598 00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:07,360 Speaker 2: conversations made you realize that you might be working in 599 00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:11,080 Speaker 2: an unhealthy environment, we hope you use Kayla's advice to 600 00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:15,040 Speaker 2: help you navigate whatever toxic working situation you might find 601 00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:18,400 Speaker 2: yourself in after the break. So when you're working your 602 00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:20,880 Speaker 2: way up the ladder, the natural next step might be 603 00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:25,040 Speaker 2: for you to become a manager. But is the manager track? Cringe? 604 00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:34,640 Speaker 2: Now that's next? 605 00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:40,040 Speaker 3: Okay, Kayla was so amazing. 606 00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:43,200 Speaker 2: I don't keep it a set. Yeah, I love anybody 607 00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:43,680 Speaker 2: who do that. 608 00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:46,320 Speaker 3: She was so real. Something I'm taking away from our 609 00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:50,200 Speaker 3: conversation with Kayla is the idea of following up after 610 00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:53,400 Speaker 3: a conversation with HR, so you have to send that 611 00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:57,280 Speaker 3: recap where you kind of talk about what you covered 612 00:31:57,320 --> 00:31:59,800 Speaker 3: in the call, so with's in writing and also this 613 00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:02,880 Speaker 3: idea of like viewing your manager as a resource and 614 00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:05,880 Speaker 3: if you have that you know, safe relationship with them, 615 00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:09,480 Speaker 3: that trusted relationship, leading with your experience and then bringing 616 00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:12,800 Speaker 3: the documentation for backup. But I also just want to 617 00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:15,880 Speaker 3: acknowledge too, because we chatted before about your own experience, 618 00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:18,240 Speaker 3: and I just want to say that I'm very appreciative 619 00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:20,960 Speaker 3: of how vulnerable you are with all of our work besties, 620 00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:24,040 Speaker 3: because nobody should have to relive their trauma. It's it's 621 00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:27,000 Speaker 3: not fun to bring up and to unpack. But I 622 00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:30,120 Speaker 3: know that you, you know, coming here and sharing all of 623 00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:32,360 Speaker 3: that is just going to make some people feel seen 624 00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:35,800 Speaker 3: and recognized and valued and have them feel encouraged to 625 00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:38,360 Speaker 3: take the first step into healing themselves and getting out 626 00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:39,440 Speaker 3: of this toxic work environment. 627 00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:41,600 Speaker 2: So I appreciate you. Thank you. Gee Yeah, no, I 628 00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:44,200 Speaker 2: mean it's to your point, it is hard to relive 629 00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:48,880 Speaker 2: things sometimes, But to your point too, I think so 630 00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:52,040 Speaker 2: many points. I think that you know, people hopefully can 631 00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:54,080 Speaker 2: see themselves reflected in this. And I think one of 632 00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:56,800 Speaker 2: the biggest things I always say is like I don't 633 00:32:56,880 --> 00:32:58,959 Speaker 2: want to go through anything in life and it have 634 00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:02,280 Speaker 2: been for nothing. Like if my life and the experiences 635 00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:05,560 Speaker 2: that I've gone through can help inform others of what 636 00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:07,840 Speaker 2: they do and they don't want in a job and 637 00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:11,880 Speaker 2: a manager in an industry, hopefully, then that services people. 638 00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:14,120 Speaker 2: A couple of things that I'm taking away from this 639 00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:18,040 Speaker 2: convo is just again reinforcing the importance of that receipt stock. 640 00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:19,960 Speaker 2: I mean, I think that that is just something that 641 00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:23,440 Speaker 2: no matter where you are in your career, always have 642 00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:26,640 Speaker 2: a document where you have your receipts and so like 643 00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:29,680 Speaker 2: we discussed, you know, documenting what was said, how it 644 00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:33,120 Speaker 2: made you feel the impact of those words. Then also 645 00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:35,120 Speaker 2: something that she said that I think is so actionable 646 00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:39,680 Speaker 2: for everyone is doing the research beforehand. Right, So, like, okay, 647 00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:42,840 Speaker 2: company A is whining and dining you like they're making 648 00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:45,680 Speaker 2: you feel great. You have the agency and the power 649 00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:48,600 Speaker 2: to go on their website. You can actually start to see, 650 00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:52,200 Speaker 2: like does executive leadership look like and reflect the world 651 00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:54,240 Speaker 2: I want to live in? And does it reflect me? 652 00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:57,640 Speaker 2: Because if you are a person coming from a marginalized 653 00:33:57,680 --> 00:33:59,520 Speaker 2: community and you look and all you see at the 654 00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:03,120 Speaker 2: top are really old white men maybe that isn't where 655 00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:05,080 Speaker 2: you would possibly grow. 656 00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:08,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, and I will just say sometimes you can do 657 00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:11,680 Speaker 3: your due diligence, and still it's a bait and switch. Yeah, 658 00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:14,040 Speaker 3: And so don't like feel that's a reflection of you 659 00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:18,200 Speaker 3: and you're not being prepared because I mean everyone's been 660 00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:20,560 Speaker 3: in a situation where you're like, oop, I really thought 661 00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:21,920 Speaker 3: I thought different. 662 00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:25,640 Speaker 2: Hello, toxic relationship. Toxic relationship, right, you'd be like I 663 00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:29,399 Speaker 2: thought we was feeling each other and crowdsource I asked 664 00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:34,719 Speaker 2: around right on, like you're crazy. Yeah. Yeah, always never 665 00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:37,600 Speaker 2: be afraid to walk away. Never be afraid. So, speaking 666 00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:42,759 Speaker 2: of walking away, let's walk into some receipts. So many receipts, 667 00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:46,640 Speaker 2: so many receipts grow. This is a receipt booklet. But 668 00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:48,440 Speaker 2: show the receipts is where we get to look at 669 00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:50,839 Speaker 2: the latest workplace headlines and trends. We get to talk 670 00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:54,160 Speaker 2: about some workplace myths and see if there's any truth 671 00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:56,760 Speaker 2: to them. Gianna, what's on the deck for today? 672 00:34:56,880 --> 00:35:00,719 Speaker 3: Okay, we're talking about gen zers not wanting to be managed. 673 00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:04,400 Speaker 2: Okay, I'm gonna let you cook. Go ahead. 674 00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:08,480 Speaker 3: So Fortune magazine reported that over half of gen zers 675 00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:09,920 Speaker 3: don't want to be middle managers. 676 00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:11,279 Speaker 2: That's according to a. 677 00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:15,440 Speaker 3: Survey conducted by recruitment firm Robert Walters. The survey also 678 00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:17,960 Speaker 3: found that seventy three percent of gen zers would rather 679 00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:21,920 Speaker 3: grow in an individual contributor role or ICY role than 680 00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:24,719 Speaker 3: become a manager. So this is the trend that has 681 00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:31,800 Speaker 3: been labeled conscious embossing because you know, young people feel 682 00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:34,600 Speaker 3: like being a manager is too high stress and there's 683 00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:38,000 Speaker 3: little reward. It doesn't mean necessarily that they don't want 684 00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:41,080 Speaker 3: to embrace leadership roles, but they want to be their 685 00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:45,200 Speaker 3: own boss more so, and they're interested in starting, you know, 686 00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:48,160 Speaker 3: their own businesses and having more agency over their careers 687 00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:48,719 Speaker 3: in that way. 688 00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:53,440 Speaker 2: Interesting, what do you think as someone who has been 689 00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:56,560 Speaker 2: an ICY and a manager. I much prefer being an 690 00:35:56,560 --> 00:36:00,200 Speaker 2: individual contributor and like could we could do like I mean, 691 00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:02,440 Speaker 2: that could be a whole another episode. But if not, 692 00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:04,680 Speaker 2: you guys can also listen to our episode All Around 693 00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:08,120 Speaker 2: Managers Toxic Managers. But the reason why I like being 694 00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:10,160 Speaker 2: an IC is because I just feel like I have 695 00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:12,760 Speaker 2: more agency over my time and day like a manager. 696 00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:15,400 Speaker 2: Think of being a manager as a parent, like in 697 00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:18,840 Speaker 2: many ways, like your success is predicated on the success 698 00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:22,560 Speaker 2: of your children, i e. Your direct reports, like you 699 00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:26,840 Speaker 2: are helping foster their growth, you're helping develop them. Yeah. No, 700 00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:31,080 Speaker 2: being a manager requires different skill sets than being an 701 00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:33,839 Speaker 2: individual contributor. And even though you might get a role 702 00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:36,000 Speaker 2: where you could be both, right, which also is kind 703 00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:39,480 Speaker 2: of like double work, I have found that being an 704 00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:42,759 Speaker 2: individual contributor, I get to own my ideas, my agency, 705 00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:45,480 Speaker 2: my time a little bit more, and I really really 706 00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:48,759 Speaker 2: appreciate that. So I can understand where gen Z is 707 00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:51,200 Speaker 2: coming from and the idea of being a manager being 708 00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:55,399 Speaker 2: really high stressed with little reward. I know we've asked 709 00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:56,880 Speaker 2: you this before, but like, would you want to be 710 00:36:56,920 --> 00:36:57,480 Speaker 2: a manager? 711 00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:05,440 Speaker 3: I gotta imagine, I, you know, yeah, really fun. I 712 00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:08,600 Speaker 3: feel like my type a structuredness, would really thrive in 713 00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:11,759 Speaker 3: a management position. And I do really want to be 714 00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:14,600 Speaker 3: a manager one day. I am very self aware to 715 00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:17,600 Speaker 3: say that I don't think right now that is the 716 00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:20,960 Speaker 3: the move for me. I'm very much in my individual 717 00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:25,279 Speaker 3: contributor era love it, so yeah, one day, for sure, 718 00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:26,879 Speaker 3: I would love to be a manager, because I feel 719 00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:29,440 Speaker 3: like for me, the managers I've been very fortunate to 720 00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:32,359 Speaker 3: have have almost been more of like mentors, and I 721 00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:35,600 Speaker 3: love that aspect of it. I'm a middle child, if 722 00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:38,279 Speaker 3: I haven't said that already, So I've always like benefited 723 00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:40,680 Speaker 3: from like the mentorship of my sister and then giving 724 00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:41,480 Speaker 3: that to my younger brother. 725 00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:43,759 Speaker 2: And I just like love that role like a passageway. 726 00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:46,759 Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, just like flowing right there. So I 727 00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:49,959 Speaker 3: really would love to manage at one at one point. 728 00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:52,520 Speaker 3: And I think I said this in our management episode 729 00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:54,000 Speaker 3: on what makes It Good and Bad? Boss, like you 730 00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:56,319 Speaker 3: were just saying that right now, I would probably be 731 00:37:56,360 --> 00:37:58,880 Speaker 3: like a bit of a micromanager because I'm working on 732 00:37:58,960 --> 00:37:59,680 Speaker 3: my control. 733 00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:01,320 Speaker 2: You gotta go more dead fish. 734 00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:03,279 Speaker 3: Yeah, I gotta get into dead fish mode. You guys 735 00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:06,839 Speaker 3: already know. So Yeah, I think one day, for sure, 736 00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:08,359 Speaker 3: I would like love to be a manager. I would 737 00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:10,879 Speaker 3: love to be in a leadership role. But right now 738 00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:14,200 Speaker 3: I'm just loving my ic moment because it's very content 739 00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:16,319 Speaker 3: creation heavy and I'm not ready to give that up 740 00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:20,120 Speaker 3: in you know, the next year or so. And also 741 00:38:20,239 --> 00:38:21,879 Speaker 3: I feel like I have a lot to learn. I'm 742 00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:26,680 Speaker 3: very much learning from the managers around me about what 743 00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:30,360 Speaker 3: makes a great manager, and that is going to inform, 744 00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:32,919 Speaker 3: you know, my management style when the day comes. 745 00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:35,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's really important for people to ask themselves, 746 00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:37,600 Speaker 2: like what do I want out of my career? What 747 00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:40,239 Speaker 2: are the necessary steps to get there? But being a 748 00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:45,040 Speaker 2: manager doesn't necessarily make sense for everybody, and that's totally okay, 749 00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:47,560 Speaker 2: So I kind of like conscious unbossing. 750 00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:50,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, I also really appreciate you being like as a manager. 751 00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:52,759 Speaker 3: That wasn't it for me, And I feel like other 752 00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:55,319 Speaker 3: people I work with at LinkedIn have acknowledged that as 753 00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:58,480 Speaker 3: well and just refreshting, like you think, oh, yeah, being 754 00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:00,279 Speaker 3: a manager is like that end all be all, and 755 00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:02,960 Speaker 3: then like I could imagine some people stay in that 756 00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:05,359 Speaker 3: role even if it's not fulfilling. So for people who 757 00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:07,520 Speaker 3: are open about it, you know, not being the right 758 00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:10,440 Speaker 3: fits really amazing because it's like, Okay, I don't need 759 00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:13,080 Speaker 3: to like become that person and love it and get 760 00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:15,759 Speaker 3: it one hundred percent right. Clearly, it's like just like 761 00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:18,160 Speaker 3: any other role, you know, there's so much pressure when 762 00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:20,719 Speaker 3: it comes to a manager. Obviously it's a big responsibility. 763 00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:22,680 Speaker 2: But yeah, one thing about me, if it don't fit, 764 00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:23,640 Speaker 2: I'm gonna take it off. 765 00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:28,200 Speaker 3: Shoe this is cinderellas Jesus a shoe the top. 766 00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:30,600 Speaker 2: If I'm getting tracked up in there cut it out, 767 00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:35,279 Speaker 2: don't fit. So I guess like we are showing our 768 00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:38,239 Speaker 2: receipts and our receipts are both saying that we say 769 00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:39,720 Speaker 2: yes to conscious on bossing. 770 00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:42,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, I support people who don't want to be it. 771 00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:47,040 Speaker 2: I support whatever y'all support. Just be cute and ethical. 772 00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:47,920 Speaker 2: That's our neutral. 773 00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:50,879 Speaker 3: But let us know what you guys think. If you're 774 00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:54,359 Speaker 3: gen Z, are you conscious on bossing? And if you're 775 00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:57,799 Speaker 3: like more millennial gen X, have you guys been managers? 776 00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:00,400 Speaker 3: If so, what was your experience like and what have 777 00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:02,080 Speaker 3: you learned from it? Would you be a manager again? 778 00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:05,440 Speaker 2: Are you consciously on bossing as we speak? Let us 779 00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:07,839 Speaker 2: know either way. Thank you guys so much for listening 780 00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:10,040 Speaker 2: to this episode. I know it was a really neaty 781 00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:14,280 Speaker 2: and heavy episode, so thank you for sticking with us 782 00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:16,560 Speaker 2: through this delicious sandwich. 783 00:40:16,880 --> 00:40:19,080 Speaker 3: And we're going to pack even more in the newsletter 784 00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:21,880 Speaker 3: this week. Make sure you guys are subscribed. It's called 785 00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:24,719 Speaker 3: Let's Talk Offline. You can find the link in the 786 00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:28,080 Speaker 3: show description. It's also in my LinkedIn bio and Jamay 787 00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:29,480 Speaker 3: and I would love to know what you guys are 788 00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:31,920 Speaker 3: taking away from this conversation, whether it be from shore 789 00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:35,279 Speaker 3: the receipts or conversation with Kayla. Let us know by 790 00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:37,440 Speaker 3: tagging us in a post on LinkedIn. We'll be sure 791 00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:38,560 Speaker 3: to meet you guys in the comments. 792 00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:41,680 Speaker 2: Yes, please tag us. We would love to see also 793 00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:43,960 Speaker 2: definitely want to give a huge shout out to this 794 00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:48,040 Speaker 2: week's listener for their question. I hope that you guys 795 00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:49,960 Speaker 2: also see that if you want to send in a 796 00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:53,320 Speaker 2: question anonymously, we will honor that. Okay, we keep things 797 00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:57,240 Speaker 2: offline all right, so definitely send us your questions. Information 798 00:40:57,280 --> 00:40:59,560 Speaker 2: on how to do that is in the show description. 799 00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:03,799 Speaker 3: On one last thing before you guys go, please rate 800 00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:06,879 Speaker 3: and review the show, give us a follow. We want 801 00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:09,279 Speaker 3: to hear from you. We want you coming back each week. 802 00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:11,520 Speaker 3: Do all the things, all the things, all the things 803 00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:15,120 Speaker 3: all right before you go, remember we've always got your back, 804 00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:19,880 Speaker 3: so if something comes up, Let's Talk Offline. I'm Gianna Prudenti. 805 00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:22,400 Speaker 2: And I'm Jamaie Jackson Gadsden, Stay Thriving. 806 00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:27,239 Speaker 3: Let's Talk Offline is a production of LinkedIn News and 807 00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:30,920 Speaker 3: iHeart Podcasts. The show is produced by Western Sound. Our 808 00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:34,320 Speaker 3: producer is Sabrina Fang. The show is edited by Savannah Wright, 809 00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:38,280 Speaker 3: our associate producer is Sarah Dilley, Alex mckinnis is our engineer, 810 00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:40,600 Speaker 3: and Ben Adair is the executive producer. 811 00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:45,680 Speaker 2: Executive producers at iHeart Podcasts are Katrina Norvel and Nikki Etour. 812 00:41:46,239 --> 00:41:50,000 Speaker 2: We got support from LinkedIn's Jesse Humple, Sarah Storr and 813 00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:54,719 Speaker 2: Ayana Angel. Maya Pope Chappelle is director of Content, Dave 814 00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:57,919 Speaker 2: Pond is Head of News Production, Courtney Coop is Head 815 00:41:57,920 --> 00:42:01,160 Speaker 2: of Original Programming, and Dan and Wrong is the editor 816 00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:02,160 Speaker 2: in chief of LinkedIn 817 00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:08,200 Speaker 4: M HM