WEBVTT - Ep. 38: Charles Post 0:00:02.080 --> 0:00:05.200 Hey everybody, and welcome to another episode of The Hunting Collective. 0:00:05.400 --> 0:00:09.520 I'm Ben O'Brien, and this week we are joined by 0:00:11.080 --> 0:00:16.200 Charles Post, a great Charles Post for another conversation around ecology, 0:00:16.239 --> 0:00:23.040 around wildlife, around fires, around grizzly bears, brown, how to 0:00:23.040 --> 0:00:25.639 be a better hunter, and just a bunch of jabbering 0:00:25.720 --> 0:00:31.240 about idealistic notions and philosophies of being better hunters. So 0:00:31.680 --> 0:00:36.200 hopefully that works for you. Hopefully you listen to all 0:00:36.240 --> 0:00:39.239 almost three hours of it, and it was a wonderful conversation, 0:00:39.280 --> 0:00:41.800 one of my favorites of all time, and an invigorating 0:00:41.840 --> 0:00:46.480 exchange with a very smart dude, Charles Post. So please 0:00:46.600 --> 0:00:54.080 enjoy Charles Post. Then O'Brien, Hey, buddy, how's it going. Oh, 0:00:54.240 --> 0:00:57.279 it's going great. It's going great. We both made it. 0:00:57.800 --> 0:01:01.080 Ice Roads. Yeah, Ice Roads Man Bozeman. I've been talking 0:01:01.120 --> 0:01:04.280 so nice about Bozeman lately, But now I just I 0:01:04.280 --> 0:01:06.560 think I'm gonna go back to Texas. I really it's 0:01:06.600 --> 0:01:09.639 too cold. Yeah, today was pretty frosty. It's pretty frosty, 0:01:09.680 --> 0:01:11.960 but it's still not bad. In fact, my family is 0:01:11.959 --> 0:01:14.279 back in Maryland right now and they got eight inches 0:01:14.280 --> 0:01:16.800 of snow they like two days ago, So we're behind 0:01:16.800 --> 0:01:19.880 the we're behind. Can you can you crab in the snow? No, 0:01:20.040 --> 0:01:24.760 you can't crab in the snow. Well, we're just red. 0:01:24.840 --> 0:01:28.679 Next man, we squirrels. Stuff in your garbage can? Yeah, 0:01:28.720 --> 0:01:30.840 I know if we live in western Maryland, which is 0:01:30.880 --> 0:01:36.000 like the it's like east West Virginia or South Pennsylvania. 0:01:36.080 --> 0:01:38.840 It's just like the little sliver that of Maryland that 0:01:38.959 --> 0:01:44.720 disconnects those states like very limital. Yeah, Northwest Virginia, it's 0:01:44.760 --> 0:01:46.120 all yeah, it's just right there. So where do you 0:01:46.200 --> 0:01:49.640 We're definitely squirrels. You could do um deer right now. 0:01:49.640 --> 0:01:53.960 Opening days coming up, people getting excited. Yeah, the Orange 0:01:54.080 --> 0:01:56.840 Army is that? Do you miss? Do you miss home? 0:01:57.400 --> 0:02:01.760 I do? I like home, but I like you could 0:02:01.800 --> 0:02:03.880 tell me from comp moving out here and being away 0:02:03.880 --> 0:02:07.559 from home that for me, like, I I appreciate going 0:02:07.560 --> 0:02:09.959 back and like having a perspective that I wouldn't have gained. 0:02:10.720 --> 0:02:13.440 But sometimes I feel like an asshole for thinking people 0:02:13.480 --> 0:02:16.240 that never left are are aren't as worldly as me, 0:02:16.320 --> 0:02:20.400 because that's that's an asshole thing to say. Yeah it is, 0:02:20.480 --> 0:02:24.480 So we'll cut this part out. It's too honest, it's 0:02:24.520 --> 0:02:28.639 too honest. But yeah, I think I think I'm glad 0:02:28.680 --> 0:02:30.760 I left, but I do miss it there, man, because 0:02:30.840 --> 0:02:35.079 I'm every time I read something or I think about tribalism, 0:02:35.240 --> 0:02:38.840 or I think about hunter gatherers, I think about um, 0:02:38.880 --> 0:02:42.520 you know, societies that were important to our humanity. It's 0:02:42.520 --> 0:02:45.480 always family, It's always it's you know, it's always tribal. 0:02:45.520 --> 0:02:50.000 So when you move away, like our modern um style 0:02:50.040 --> 0:02:53.240 of moving away from our tribe only like to seek 0:02:53.320 --> 0:02:56.280 success is natural in some way, but also a little 0:02:56.960 --> 0:02:59.720 that's a shitty way to live life. It's something it's hard. 0:03:00.080 --> 0:03:02.360 I've been here about two years, you know, my wife's 0:03:02.360 --> 0:03:04.840 families from here. But yeah, I feel like this year 0:03:05.040 --> 0:03:08.520 kind of just connecting with UM, you know, kind of 0:03:08.520 --> 0:03:11.080 creating that tribe, kind of creating that place of like 0:03:11.120 --> 0:03:13.200 stability and comfort. And it sounds like we're gonna be 0:03:13.240 --> 0:03:17.240 neighbors now, neighbors. I got a new house closing soon. 0:03:17.400 --> 0:03:21.480 You got one closing soon. Yeah. We should take a tunnel. Yeah, 0:03:21.919 --> 0:03:23.720 I think we could do it. You doing the summer 0:03:25.240 --> 0:03:27.080 be a little tough to do right now. Our wives 0:03:27.080 --> 0:03:29.440 is like, and what are you guys actually doing? I'd 0:03:29.440 --> 0:03:33.880 like to tunnel over to your house, like, come on, son, Yeah, 0:03:33.880 --> 0:03:37.080 we're coming with Get on your belly. It's only a 0:03:37.080 --> 0:03:41.360 half mile the Charles, could we drive? Sure? This is 0:03:41.400 --> 0:03:44.360 more fun. That is more fun like shaw Shank redemption 0:03:44.400 --> 0:03:50.640 popping up out of them popping up? Well, um yeah, 0:03:50.680 --> 0:03:52.120 you feel you feel like you're starting to get a 0:03:52.120 --> 0:03:55.240 tribe here in Bozeman that people that feels like home, 0:03:55.360 --> 0:03:57.880 like you can have over for dinner and doesn't feel 0:03:57.880 --> 0:04:00.320 like strangers. Yeah, definitely starting to get that way. And 0:04:00.320 --> 0:04:02.840 I think just starting to get familiar with the seasons 0:04:02.840 --> 0:04:05.360 and starting to get excited about um, you know, it's 0:04:05.400 --> 0:04:08.040 a great word in ecology called phrenology. It's like the 0:04:08.040 --> 0:04:10.640 timing of events and nature is kind of calendar, and 0:04:11.280 --> 0:04:13.920 that's getting really fun. Starting to just getting familiar with 0:04:13.960 --> 0:04:17.919 like the way things work outside. Yeah, it's super different 0:04:17.920 --> 0:04:20.520 from me too, because people talk about different you know, 0:04:20.600 --> 0:04:24.360 weather events or the way things are and not being 0:04:24.400 --> 0:04:27.320 from Montana, somebody flippantly talks about all the weather from 0:04:27.320 --> 0:04:29.040 the east or this you know, this time of year, 0:04:29.080 --> 0:04:31.480 this is this is what happens. I'm like, that's I'm 0:04:31.520 --> 0:04:34.480 excited to learn. I have no idea what you're talking 0:04:34.520 --> 0:04:36.520 about In a lot of ways, and it's cool getting 0:04:37.240 --> 0:04:39.719 getting your spots. Like I grew up surfing is what 0:04:39.760 --> 0:04:42.159 I did my all the places they did my field 0:04:42.160 --> 0:04:45.320 research from, mostly in this year, Nevada and the coastal mountains. 0:04:45.880 --> 0:04:47.520 So you have these little kind of honey hooles that 0:04:47.520 --> 0:04:49.440 you know really well, and depending on what you're after, 0:04:49.560 --> 0:04:50.800 you can go and kind of like make sure you 0:04:50.839 --> 0:04:53.000 get that. I feel like this year I kind of 0:04:54.200 --> 0:04:56.520 keaton on a few spots that really feel like they're 0:04:56.520 --> 0:04:59.120 mind So that's fun, like whether it's bringing friends and 0:04:59.160 --> 0:05:02.799 family out there, or you know, just maybe Rachel skiing 0:05:02.839 --> 0:05:04.039 for the day of my wife and I can just 0:05:04.080 --> 0:05:07.000 go like split and go to my little zone. That's 0:05:07.040 --> 0:05:09.880 where I'm That's what I'm excited to do. And you know, 0:05:10.000 --> 0:05:12.919 I've in the transition to get here. It seems like 0:05:12.920 --> 0:05:15.560 it's been a long time. Um you were saying, yeah, 0:05:15.640 --> 0:05:17.400 last time we podcast is like because we were just 0:05:17.400 --> 0:05:19.680 trying to figure out what to do we moved here 0:05:20.520 --> 0:05:22.719 and now it's like, Okay, that's I'm looking forward to 0:05:22.760 --> 0:05:25.120 thirty years of that, you know. I mean, I think 0:05:25.160 --> 0:05:28.080 that's one of the unique things about living in a 0:05:28.080 --> 0:05:30.440 place where there's public lands to tramp around on right, 0:05:30.800 --> 0:05:33.600 and there's so much. I mean, people ask me if 0:05:33.600 --> 0:05:35.240 I've been to this range of that range, or this 0:05:35.320 --> 0:05:37.280 valley or that valley, and I mean, I feel like 0:05:37.320 --> 0:05:40.279 the last two years I've just spent poking around our valley. Yeah, 0:05:40.440 --> 0:05:45.360 and just two of the multiple ranges that encircle it. Yeah, 0:05:45.400 --> 0:05:48.280 I can't I can't wait. I'm most stressed about all 0:05:48.279 --> 0:05:51.480 the stuff all that need. Yeah. Right, I gotta buy skis. Yeah, 0:05:51.560 --> 0:05:53.440 I gotta get all this fly fishing equipment. I gotta 0:05:53.440 --> 0:05:55.480 look really fashionable out on the water. I can't be 0:05:55.520 --> 0:05:58.839 out there fly just any clothes. I gotta get like 0:05:58.920 --> 0:06:01.280 sims waiters, and I gotta look the part. But I 0:06:01.640 --> 0:06:03.960 want to get especially in Yeah, you know, I don't 0:06:03.960 --> 0:06:05.480 want to be out there. I gotta get like a 0:06:05.480 --> 0:06:08.280 wicker basket ready. And people still do that because river 0:06:08.360 --> 0:06:13.719 runs through it an accurate depiction of that's what I 0:06:12.880 --> 0:06:16.240 should just dress exactly like those guys, cut my hair 0:06:16.320 --> 0:06:19.240 like them. That'd be great. Well, It's it's funny because 0:06:20.240 --> 0:06:22.400 you know, I think, especially I'm not traveling as much, 0:06:22.400 --> 0:06:24.839 it's just been awesome. But for so much as the loss, 0:06:24.920 --> 0:06:26.599 you know, better part of the last two years, Like 0:06:27.800 --> 0:06:30.800 you're reminded that you live at an epic place getting 0:06:30.960 --> 0:06:33.400 off the plane with all these excited people with their 0:06:33.400 --> 0:06:35.560 fishing gear and their hunting gear and their cameras and 0:06:35.560 --> 0:06:38.200 their packs ready for Yellowstone, and if you're like, oh, 0:06:38.240 --> 0:06:39.800 are you gonna go do this? Like I'm actually just 0:06:39.839 --> 0:06:43.640 knew home and go to sleep, probably unpacking pretty days. 0:06:43.720 --> 0:06:45.080 I told my wife that the other day. I'm like, 0:06:45.080 --> 0:06:46.719 do you realize we're going to live for the first 0:06:46.720 --> 0:06:48.920 time in our lives in a place where people come 0:06:48.960 --> 0:06:52.359 to go on vacation. You realize public land? Yeah? Do 0:06:52.400 --> 0:06:55.159 you realize that that this is how lucky that we are? 0:06:55.480 --> 0:07:00.120 And I think she she absolutely does. Um And to 0:07:00.200 --> 0:07:03.560 raise a kid here, you know, I know you just 0:07:03.600 --> 0:07:06.800 got married, but hey could be on the horizon to 0:07:06.920 --> 0:07:11.640 raise a little human, to mold a little human um 0:07:11.680 --> 0:07:14.720 in a place that has this immense amount of freedom, right, 0:07:15.320 --> 0:07:19.040 It's pretty cool totally. Because that's why I would describe 0:07:19.080 --> 0:07:21.360 like the feeling, because I talked that on the podcast 0:07:21.400 --> 0:07:23.400 a couple of times, Like the feeling of being here. 0:07:24.200 --> 0:07:26.000 It's just when you wake up, it's just a little 0:07:26.000 --> 0:07:30.400 bit different. The knowledge that there's this large tract of 0:07:30.520 --> 0:07:35.920 freedom just waiting for you. Like that's that's pretty pretty crazy. 0:07:36.200 --> 0:07:39.960 I mean last spring, I had a black wolf running 0:07:39.960 --> 0:07:43.200 in front of my car ten minutes from town, you know, 0:07:43.320 --> 0:07:45.119 and it was kind of I think in that moment 0:07:45.120 --> 0:07:48.240 it kind of dawned on me because back home, you know, 0:07:48.360 --> 0:07:51.720 we lived north of San Francisco, right on the banks 0:07:51.760 --> 0:07:57.559 of the Ocean um huge marine wilderness area, tons of life, 0:07:58.280 --> 0:08:01.040 but bald eagles were kind of rare. Definitely enough wolves, 0:08:01.440 --> 0:08:03.800 had a few black bears. But I remember being a 0:08:03.800 --> 0:08:06.000 little kid and see my first bald eagle, you know, 0:08:06.040 --> 0:08:08.280 which being somebody he grew up bird watching like Grandma 0:08:08.320 --> 0:08:11.560 since I was real small. It was awesome, but it 0:08:11.600 --> 0:08:13.800 was in a bed bath and beyond parking lot as 0:08:13.800 --> 0:08:15.800 I was loading shotguns on it A's truck to go 0:08:15.880 --> 0:08:18.520 bird hunting, and I was like, man, this is amazing, 0:08:18.600 --> 0:08:20.920 but this kind of sucks, you know that my first 0:08:20.920 --> 0:08:23.560 bald eagle. Think that might be the title of your autobiography. 0:08:23.800 --> 0:08:26.679 I saw my first bird eagle beath and beyond bald 0:08:26.680 --> 0:08:28.840 eagle in the bed bath and beyond. It could definitely 0:08:28.880 --> 0:08:31.120 be a chapter. It was the title, probably first chapter. 0:08:31.480 --> 0:08:34.760 But now, like my little spot right deer hunt. The 0:08:34.800 --> 0:08:36.240 other day, I had two bald eagles in the tree 0:08:36.280 --> 0:08:39.200 over my head. I was like, this is normal, you know, 0:08:39.320 --> 0:08:42.439 And how amazing is it that there are places where 0:08:43.120 --> 0:08:47.560 you still have relatively wild ecosystems, where you just get 0:08:47.600 --> 0:08:50.200 to be, you know, right right over the back fence. 0:08:50.240 --> 0:08:51.760 Really you can't say that, you know, you can't say 0:08:51.760 --> 0:08:54.880 it enough. And I think folks UM I was. I 0:08:54.920 --> 0:08:57.040 had Lantaani in here the other day and we were 0:08:57.080 --> 0:09:00.200 talking around we just it just came up randomly, Like 0:09:00.600 --> 0:09:03.080 there's a term going around UM in some circles now 0:09:03.120 --> 0:09:05.840 called like West East people are calling the people that 0:09:05.880 --> 0:09:08.360 live out west west East, like I thought West Falia 0:09:08.440 --> 0:09:13.720 like the but like the van life UM. People in 0:09:13.760 --> 0:09:17.720 the Midwest and the East like have this UM. I'm 0:09:17.720 --> 0:09:19.640 not sure what it is, angst around the way that 0:09:19.720 --> 0:09:21.720 you you know, that you're so proudly talk about the 0:09:21.720 --> 0:09:23.520 thing that you have. You know, if you got all this, 0:09:24.360 --> 0:09:26.760 you know, these awesome photos of you install on top mountains, 0:09:26.800 --> 0:09:31.439 and and I think the beautiful thing about I'm not 0:09:31.559 --> 0:09:35.000 from here, You're not from here, like we moved here 0:09:35.080 --> 0:09:38.040 for this, you know, we have other reasons to be here. 0:09:38.080 --> 0:09:40.719 But I'd say my primary one is for what we're 0:09:40.760 --> 0:09:43.440 talking about right now. And if you live in Iowa, 0:09:43.559 --> 0:09:45.160 or if you live where I'm from in Maryland, or 0:09:45.200 --> 0:09:47.120 if you live in North Carolina, if you live in Florida, 0:09:47.840 --> 0:09:51.959 it doesn't take long a kid here like come once 0:09:52.000 --> 0:09:56.720 a year, Montana, Colorado, Idaho, anywhere anywhere where you can 0:09:56.760 --> 0:09:59.719 get out and do stuff like that. It's it's the 0:10:00.000 --> 0:10:04.280 sitiation for it should be there for everyone because it's 0:10:04.280 --> 0:10:06.840 pretty important. Well I think what it does, you know, 0:10:06.960 --> 0:10:11.400 for somebody like us who or for anybody listening who 0:10:11.880 --> 0:10:16.199 you know, really spends time, um kind of appreciating nature. 0:10:17.360 --> 0:10:18.920 One of the things that we talked a lot about 0:10:18.960 --> 0:10:21.199 when I was in school, mostly a lot of graduate 0:10:21.200 --> 0:10:24.480 school really was like turn our restoration ecology, like returning 0:10:24.480 --> 0:10:27.839 the system back to a relatively pristine state. What we're 0:10:27.840 --> 0:10:31.240 trying to improve the situation. It's hard to know where 0:10:31.240 --> 0:10:32.719 you should be headed if you don't know where you've 0:10:32.760 --> 0:10:36.240 come from. In a lot of states, you know, East 0:10:36.240 --> 0:10:39.559 Coast colonized a long time ago, lost apex predators a 0:10:39.559 --> 0:10:44.680 long time ago, pretty uh, human influenced ecosystems, you know, 0:10:44.800 --> 0:10:47.160 up to the Rocky Mountain Front. In a lot of places. 0:10:48.160 --> 0:10:51.080 So it's nice to know that there are places that 0:10:51.120 --> 0:10:54.640 you can reference as benchmarks, you know, places where you 0:10:54.679 --> 0:10:59.760 can see an ecosystem that's functioning in a relatively pristine way. 0:11:00.640 --> 0:11:03.320 And that's something really informative because you can bring that 0:11:03.440 --> 0:11:06.680 home and you can say, wow, you know, New England 0:11:06.679 --> 0:11:08.920 would have had bald eagles and wolves and bears and 0:11:08.960 --> 0:11:12.160 moose in a lot of places, you know, and even 0:11:12.160 --> 0:11:14.599 by the time listen, yeah, listen, I will you, you 0:11:14.640 --> 0:11:17.920 would have had elk and grizzly bears and wolves, and 0:11:17.960 --> 0:11:20.320 you did at some point right before you Iowa. And 0:11:20.320 --> 0:11:22.800 if you've read Saint Kenny Almanac, the first fifty pages 0:11:22.880 --> 0:11:26.920 talk about, you know, the depletion of wildlife and not 0:11:27.080 --> 0:11:31.079 to resources across you know, the up and Wisconsin in particular. 0:11:31.559 --> 0:11:33.840 It wasn't that long ago that we had passenger pigeons, 0:11:33.960 --> 0:11:36.080 you know, blotting the sky out and heard a bison 0:11:36.160 --> 0:11:39.000 that Colonel Dodge spent multiple days in the saddle riding 0:11:39.120 --> 0:11:42.120 one one herd. So it's cool because you come to 0:11:42.160 --> 0:11:44.360 a place like this, you're like, wow, like this is 0:11:44.360 --> 0:11:45.920 what's been lost in a lot of places. You go 0:11:45.960 --> 0:11:49.760 to Alaska, you know, you see the salmon migration. I 0:11:49.760 --> 0:11:51.400 grew up in California. By the time I was in 0:11:51.480 --> 0:11:54.640 high school, the salmon that had migrated at my backyard creek, 0:11:54.760 --> 0:11:59.360 they disappeared, you know, functionally, that population was extinct. So 0:11:59.800 --> 0:12:03.600 it's funny though, I'm sorry, I think it's funny. One 0:12:03.640 --> 0:12:06.360 thing that that you're saying really like, you know, wory 0:12:06.400 --> 0:12:10.679 relatively young men. You and I, um, but I my 0:12:10.880 --> 0:12:14.959 father talks about being in the hills of western Maryland 0:12:15.080 --> 0:12:20.280 hunting grouse and quail and pheasants. In my lifetime, I 0:12:20.280 --> 0:12:25.599 think I've seen one pheasant that was on YouTube probably yeah, 0:12:26.120 --> 0:12:31.360 beautiful birds from China here was like that. That change 0:12:31.400 --> 0:12:35.280 happened within my and my you know, within my generation 0:12:35.840 --> 0:12:38.880 there were upland birds. That was like my dad's best pastime. 0:12:38.920 --> 0:12:40.680 It used to be small game and upland birds and 0:12:40.679 --> 0:12:43.800 then kill a orm opening day. And that changed within 0:12:43.920 --> 0:12:47.520 my lifetime. Now there are no very few upland birds 0:12:47.520 --> 0:12:50.480 because the way that habitat changed, right well, you know, 0:12:50.520 --> 0:12:53.000 and you see things in the news or you see 0:12:53.000 --> 0:12:56.480 these headlines that are kind of uh, I can be 0:12:56.600 --> 0:12:58.800 quite depressing at time, especially for people like I guess 0:12:58.840 --> 0:13:00.679 you probably keep our pulse. You around the pulse of 0:13:00.720 --> 0:13:03.920 the environment or the outdoors. And you know, one of 0:13:03.960 --> 0:13:06.400 the statistics that constantly runs through my head, for better 0:13:06.480 --> 0:13:08.680 or worse, is the idea that not the idea of 0:13:08.679 --> 0:13:11.439 the reality, that the extinction right on Earth is a 0:13:11.520 --> 0:13:14.480 hundred to a thousand times greater than would be without humans. 0:13:15.160 --> 0:13:17.760 So for us, like I had salmon disappear in my backyard, 0:13:18.080 --> 0:13:20.720 you grew up in a place that has changed dramatically 0:13:20.760 --> 0:13:24.040 since your dad was a young young guy. I mean 0:13:24.720 --> 0:13:29.000 that phenomena is is taking place across the globe and 0:13:29.320 --> 0:13:32.000 it's resulting in extinctions, Like there are still quail, there 0:13:32.040 --> 0:13:35.080 are still grounds, there are still Pacific salmon. But I 0:13:35.120 --> 0:13:39.840 mean it's hard to fathom, you know, growing up in 0:13:39.880 --> 0:13:43.440 a place like Southeast Asia where you're there was a 0:13:43.559 --> 0:13:45.720 rhino that you would have grown up with and there's 0:13:45.720 --> 0:13:49.440 no more rhinos. Like that's crazy. I mean the California 0:13:49.480 --> 0:13:53.880 grizzlies extinct. I mean it's and I think I mean 0:13:53.920 --> 0:13:57.719 what eastern elk I mean going further back but there, yeah, 0:13:57.760 --> 0:14:00.640 I mean there's these these very familiar your species that 0:14:00.679 --> 0:14:03.000 will never see again, right, And I think those are 0:14:03.040 --> 0:14:05.120 the canaries in the coal mine, These like big, charismatic 0:14:05.200 --> 0:14:09.200 things that generations have told tales of, you know, maybe 0:14:09.200 --> 0:14:12.360 Eastern Elk, and it's like, wow, they're not there anymore. Yeah. 0:14:12.400 --> 0:14:14.320 The amount of hunters that don't know that Eastern elk 0:14:14.360 --> 0:14:17.360 ever existed or ever seen you know, what one might 0:14:17.400 --> 0:14:20.360 have looked like, or what you know, depictions of them 0:14:20.440 --> 0:14:22.760 is is crazy. I think when you read about them 0:14:22.760 --> 0:14:26.320 and see what they were, it's amazing, right, it's amazing. 0:14:26.960 --> 0:14:31.120 I mean just to think like bison grazing from Canada 0:14:31.200 --> 0:14:35.200 to Mexico like insane. You know, when you read all 0:14:35.240 --> 0:14:38.520 the trappers journalist, that little naturalist Hudson Bay journals, they 0:14:38.560 --> 0:14:42.960 did the wonderful job of documenting you know, pray or 0:14:43.000 --> 0:14:46.200 whatever whatever they able to harvest. I mean, you just 0:14:46.240 --> 0:14:48.280 can't hardly imagine like what it must have been like. 0:14:48.320 --> 0:14:50.720 And I think again back to Montana and the public 0:14:50.760 --> 0:14:52.840 lands and the wildlife we have. It's such an important 0:14:52.880 --> 0:14:54.960 reminder for people from across the country to come out 0:14:55.000 --> 0:14:57.360 here and say, wow, like this is something we can 0:14:57.360 --> 0:15:00.920 work towards. Places that have you know, wild ecosystems still, 0:15:00.960 --> 0:15:04.600 places for wildlife are abundant, you know, and communities that 0:15:05.240 --> 0:15:07.520 you know, we sure certainly have growing pains in areas 0:15:07.560 --> 0:15:09.280 that we don't necessarily see eye to eye on. But 0:15:09.760 --> 0:15:13.200 I think people generally rely on nature in a lot 0:15:13.240 --> 0:15:16.000 of ways, whether it's to grow their their crops, or 0:15:16.120 --> 0:15:20.200 to hunted harvest, or just to find an escape. Yeah, 0:15:20.200 --> 0:15:22.680 I think it's a That's one of the things that 0:15:22.720 --> 0:15:25.840 perplexes me most about. And I think what I've gained 0:15:25.880 --> 0:15:29.320 from you in our time talking on on record and 0:15:29.360 --> 0:15:36.760 off record is is just the hunters can be, you know, 0:15:37.000 --> 0:15:41.680 agents of healthy ecosystems. And that ends up being at 0:15:41.680 --> 0:15:44.480 the end of the day, if you're if we're really 0:15:44.480 --> 0:15:46.880 about what we say we're about, which I'm not really 0:15:46.880 --> 0:15:49.160 sure we are, Like there in a lot of ways, 0:15:49.160 --> 0:15:52.440 we hunters are virtuous in a lot of ways. They're 0:15:52.480 --> 0:15:57.120 not modern hunters at least and probably all hunters through history, 0:15:57.240 --> 0:16:00.240 I would say, um, but what what it's help me 0:16:00.240 --> 0:16:03.880 to understand, It's like the most virtuous thing to be 0:16:04.000 --> 0:16:08.600 about as a hunter is a healthy ecosystem. You know, 0:16:09.040 --> 0:16:14.640 like meat will happen, conservation will get funded. Those things 0:16:14.640 --> 0:16:19.680 are there's what they're happening, their byproducts. That's there's nothing 0:16:19.680 --> 0:16:21.160 I'm going to say, and due to change the fact 0:16:21.200 --> 0:16:23.160 that I have to pay a duck stamp or I 0:16:23.160 --> 0:16:25.840 have to pay a license fee, and it it feels 0:16:26.760 --> 0:16:28.720 I used to want to celebrate that, like we can 0:16:28.800 --> 0:16:30.880 look at all the boddy I give you right, but 0:16:31.080 --> 0:16:33.480 I have no choice. I have no choice. I'm either 0:16:33.520 --> 0:16:37.240 a poecher or I pay and so, but I do 0:16:37.360 --> 0:16:39.440 have a choice to to whether to be an agent 0:16:39.760 --> 0:16:42.560 for an healthy ecosystem or not. Like that's my choice 0:16:42.560 --> 0:16:45.160 because I can be out there too and understand the 0:16:45.240 --> 0:16:46.720 natural world, or I can be out there just to 0:16:46.760 --> 0:16:49.440 fill my tag and pay my dues. Right, and and 0:16:49.480 --> 0:16:52.360 you can do there are so many opportunities to do more. 0:16:52.520 --> 0:16:55.840 We don't have community groups on road maintenance necessarily, or 0:16:55.880 --> 0:16:58.480 bridge maintenance. Even if you want to start a club, 0:16:58.560 --> 0:17:01.240 you probably couldn't go and fix a pothole leakal But 0:17:02.280 --> 0:17:04.720 you know along that same line pain and we've talked 0:17:04.720 --> 0:17:08.200 to us before. You know, paying your involuntary tax is 0:17:08.280 --> 0:17:11.240 just like putting money in the pot for roads or schools, 0:17:11.320 --> 0:17:13.919 which is an amazing thing about the American system that 0:17:13.920 --> 0:17:16.680 we were part of. But we also are blessed that 0:17:16.720 --> 0:17:18.600 we have all these opportunities to be more involved and 0:17:18.680 --> 0:17:21.800 be that agent of change and contribute not only to 0:17:21.840 --> 0:17:23.919 carry ourselves in a certain way when we're out hunting, 0:17:24.760 --> 0:17:28.000 we're engaging with non hunters or people in our community, 0:17:28.280 --> 0:17:32.960 but there's also a million opportunities to participate, and whether 0:17:33.000 --> 0:17:36.600 that's being involved in trail maintenance, picking up trash as 0:17:36.600 --> 0:17:40.040 you go, you know, leaving by example, being a part 0:17:40.119 --> 0:17:42.480 of a Christmas bird count, or being a part of 0:17:42.480 --> 0:17:44.879 a resta stream restoration project. I think you and I 0:17:44.920 --> 0:17:49.919 have saved many indigo buntings. That's right. That think that 0:17:50.000 --> 0:17:53.520 was the bird out the window hashtag it's been. There's 0:17:53.520 --> 0:17:55.280 a few of them out there. Yeah, I feel like 0:17:55.320 --> 0:17:58.160 the ending of people watch. Oh my god, I feel 0:17:58.160 --> 0:17:59.600 like that's happened. Well, next year we should do a 0:17:59.600 --> 0:18:03.040 live pot cast the Boson Raptor Fest. Yeah. I heard so. 0:18:03.720 --> 0:18:06.080 Litle Hilba from Stone Glacier we had lunch the other day. 0:18:06.119 --> 0:18:08.080 He had a bunch of scraps from a deer he 0:18:08.200 --> 0:18:09.680 killed in the back. He's like, I'm taking these over 0:18:09.720 --> 0:18:15.360 to the raptor. Like, what are you talking about? Veloscopy raptors. 0:18:16.080 --> 0:18:17.600 That was my first thought because I have a child, 0:18:18.400 --> 0:18:20.440 I have a child's mind, So I was like, veloscopy 0:18:20.520 --> 0:18:26.480 raptors put your crans down. Yeah, but and I was like, wait, 0:18:27.800 --> 0:18:30.119 that's awesome, dude. You know so he's a lot of 0:18:30.200 --> 0:18:34.359 hunters have started taking their scraps rather than chucking them 0:18:34.359 --> 0:18:36.320 out for codes or whatever and taking over the Raptor Center. 0:18:36.400 --> 0:18:38.960 Like great, right, that's just another thing. But I think 0:18:39.000 --> 0:18:40.800 you know, well, you and I probably repeat ourselves on 0:18:40.880 --> 0:18:44.160 that point a lot around. You know, you're paying your 0:18:44.160 --> 0:18:46.760 taxigo hunt. You know, I don't go stand by the 0:18:46.800 --> 0:18:51.400 bridge when they're finished the new construction be liked, you're welcome. 0:18:53.359 --> 0:18:56.280 I don't do that because I could. I could. We 0:18:56.320 --> 0:18:59.439 can all get together and be like, wait did bridge 0:18:59.480 --> 0:19:02.840 every Sunday? But hunters do that all the time. You know, 0:19:02.920 --> 0:19:05.399 we did at what you didn't really do because you 0:19:05.400 --> 0:19:08.240 don't have a choice. Um. We It is okay to 0:19:08.280 --> 0:19:13.920 celebrate the history that this happened, but celebrating the money 0:19:13.960 --> 0:19:17.600 that you're paying is not. It's not enough. It's not 0:19:17.680 --> 0:19:22.879 it's just not enough. And do you know do more? Um? 0:19:22.920 --> 0:19:25.480 And I love the deer scrap you know that's creation 0:19:25.560 --> 0:19:27.480 because I've done some work with BOS and Raptor Center 0:19:27.520 --> 0:19:30.080 and they're awesome. They're just outside of town. You're telling 0:19:30.119 --> 0:19:32.920 all about that I'm very ignorant to what they do. Yeah, 0:19:32.960 --> 0:19:37.320 so they're um, they're are rehabilitation center. They're also an 0:19:37.359 --> 0:19:40.639 education center. UM. They do a lot of outreach as well. 0:19:41.160 --> 0:19:43.480 So a typical situation is, you know, an alv I 0:19:43.560 --> 0:19:46.240 hit by a car. Somebody picks it up, either calls 0:19:46.240 --> 0:19:47.760 and they'll come and retrieve it, or you bring it 0:19:47.800 --> 0:19:50.600 out there and they have It's just an incredible staff 0:19:50.640 --> 0:19:52.960 of people that will, you know, with with the skills 0:19:52.960 --> 0:19:54.840 and the knowledge and resources to try to bring some 0:19:54.880 --> 0:19:58.000 of these birds back to back to life. UM, you 0:19:58.000 --> 0:20:00.720 know a common thing, uh, which we don't have to 0:20:00.720 --> 0:20:03.800 get into because it's a hunting issue topic, but you know, 0:20:03.960 --> 0:20:05.800 lead poisoning is a big deal for a lot of 0:20:07.760 --> 0:20:11.240 a lot of migratory um, you know, eagles especially, So 0:20:11.280 --> 0:20:13.159 the times that I've gone over there and shot some 0:20:13.200 --> 0:20:16.439 photos for them and helped them kind of you know, 0:20:16.600 --> 0:20:18.560 it's of interest, but it's also it's nice to be 0:20:18.600 --> 0:20:20.760 able to you know, support groups like that. And I've 0:20:20.760 --> 0:20:24.960 shot photos of these birds that have been picked up 0:20:25.000 --> 0:20:27.640 by hunters. Actually, the bald Eagles story that I did 0:20:27.720 --> 0:20:31.199 last year for them, there were two hunters somewhere in 0:20:31.240 --> 0:20:34.800 eastern Montana. I want to say, who you know. Bald 0:20:34.840 --> 0:20:37.199 eagles are big birds, old and eggles are even bigger. 0:20:37.760 --> 0:20:39.359 You see him in the groups. Like I've been to 0:20:39.400 --> 0:20:40.880 a lot of you know, Prince of Wales and there's 0:20:40.920 --> 0:20:44.400 like seventeen bald eagles ripping apart of you know, blacktail deer. 0:20:44.440 --> 0:20:47.879 You're like, they'll like take your groceries from the car. Yeah, yeah, 0:20:48.200 --> 0:20:49.880 but you know, so these two hunters in this one 0:20:49.960 --> 0:20:54.000 circumstance where we're out um rifle hunting and found this 0:20:54.040 --> 0:20:57.159 bald eagle that was obviously super sick, and these guys 0:20:57.200 --> 0:20:59.800 were super brave and probably lucky, but they went never in, 0:21:00.080 --> 0:21:01.960 literally picked it up with a towel, put in their truck, 0:21:02.600 --> 0:21:06.120 drove it a few hours to the Raptor Center, and 0:21:06.240 --> 0:21:09.679 it had incredibly high levels of of lead. So basically, 0:21:09.760 --> 0:21:13.440 what happens from a physiology perspective as you have these birds, um, 0:21:13.480 --> 0:21:15.760 I've done a little research learned from them, and oftentimes 0:21:15.760 --> 0:21:18.720 they're migratory birds. You have your resident eagles and you 0:21:18.720 --> 0:21:23.760 have migratory eagles. The resident eagles have a diet like 0:21:23.840 --> 0:21:26.560 you and I are home and we have certain things 0:21:26.560 --> 0:21:29.320 we eat, but if we're traveling at the airport. We're 0:21:29.359 --> 0:21:30.800 going to a new city. We're gonna be a little 0:21:30.840 --> 0:21:34.200 bit more opportunistic. So that's the same program with these 0:21:34.200 --> 0:21:38.240 migratory birds. They're coming through Bozeman, Montana. They've never been here. 0:21:38.560 --> 0:21:41.160 They see a pile of guts and they're like, oh, 0:21:41.280 --> 0:21:43.800 that's food. I gotta put calories on and I need 0:21:43.840 --> 0:21:46.399 to go eat that. Whereas the local bourbon like, I 0:21:46.480 --> 0:21:49.800 love fish, I know my spot to go kill over 0:21:49.840 --> 0:21:51.439 that dead deer to get to their spot where they 0:21:51.440 --> 0:21:53.680 know there's fish totally, and they just have their preference. 0:21:54.000 --> 0:21:58.720 So oftentimes these migratory birds are more predisposed to this 0:21:58.840 --> 0:22:01.320 lead poisoning. So what happens is the way these birds 0:22:01.480 --> 0:22:04.520 bodies were because they're sitting there. You've probably seen an 0:22:04.520 --> 0:22:07.320 eagle or or a vulture, even a raccoon. You know, 0:22:07.320 --> 0:22:08.639 a lot of these animals like, I gotta get as 0:22:08.720 --> 0:22:10.720 much down my throat as possible because I don't know 0:22:10.720 --> 0:22:12.560 when when my next meal is coming. I don't know 0:22:12.600 --> 0:22:14.800 if some bigger bird or bears and kicking me off this. 0:22:15.880 --> 0:22:19.560 So their bodies are basically ingesting rapidly, and then they 0:22:19.600 --> 0:22:22.480 have these digestive systems that are just like burning through 0:22:22.520 --> 0:22:26.879 the food. So they're metabolizing not only the meat at 0:22:26.880 --> 0:22:30.719 a rapid pace, but that lead. So instead of drinking 0:22:30.800 --> 0:22:34.160 like six beers over six hours, they're chugging six beers 0:22:34.160 --> 0:22:36.359 at one time, and it just punches them. So they 0:22:36.400 --> 0:22:38.200 get really sick. And a lot of birds will die 0:22:38.240 --> 0:22:41.600 from that lead poisoning. Um. So the raptor center, you know, 0:22:41.680 --> 0:22:45.680 they will stabilize the bird. UM. I'm sure there's a 0:22:45.680 --> 0:22:47.120 lot of other things. I don't know that they do, 0:22:47.200 --> 0:22:50.000 but um, you know, basically getting back on his feet, 0:22:50.119 --> 0:22:52.400 and a lot of birds do die. But in this case, 0:22:52.440 --> 0:22:53.800 we were able to let that bird go. So what 0:22:53.880 --> 0:22:56.240 makes a bird like that migratory as opposed to resident? 0:22:57.040 --> 0:23:01.120 You know, I know with with someone it's it's more 0:23:01.160 --> 0:23:04.359 of a of a fitness thing. If you're a rainbow 0:23:04.400 --> 0:23:07.320 trout and you saw up a stream, say, you know, 0:23:07.520 --> 0:23:10.479 you're you have ten thousands, you know, little eggs that 0:23:10.600 --> 0:23:14.200 hatch and there's you know, and uh say twenty fish 0:23:14.280 --> 0:23:17.479 that that survived to a young age. Certain OFFICI will 0:23:17.480 --> 0:23:20.520 stay as rainbow trout. The ones that get really big 0:23:20.600 --> 0:23:23.160 and exceed a certain size speciold will say, like ship, 0:23:23.320 --> 0:23:24.760 I can move on from this little creek and I 0:23:24.760 --> 0:23:26.359 can go to the ocean get way bigger, and the 0:23:26.359 --> 0:23:28.399 bigger I get, the more eggs I can have, or 0:23:28.440 --> 0:23:30.480 the more reproductive I can be. More of a cound 0:23:30.520 --> 0:23:32.520 that's the word we use, so usually it's like a 0:23:32.560 --> 0:23:36.199 size thing like that. Maybe that's the hashtag from this Yeah, 0:23:36.280 --> 0:23:41.159 that's definitely the hashtag this podcast. The condity that sounds 0:23:41.200 --> 0:23:44.800 like like a cool band name for something or like 0:23:44.800 --> 0:23:50.640 a bumper sticker. Yeah, for coundity. Yeah, all right, continue, 0:23:51.040 --> 0:23:54.800 I'm sorry. That'll be the hashtag for the episode. You 0:23:54.840 --> 0:23:59.719 can look at the bottom of the podcast. Both eagles, 0:23:59.720 --> 0:24:02.720 you know, probably a lot to do with um where 0:24:02.720 --> 0:24:04.719 they were born, you know, because it's hard to make 0:24:04.720 --> 0:24:06.800 a living being an eagle Northwest Territory. It's probably a 0:24:06.800 --> 0:24:10.840 little bit easier being a resident bird in the Bay area. Um, 0:24:11.440 --> 0:24:14.080 so whether it'll push these birds down and um, you know, 0:24:14.080 --> 0:24:18.120 there's also only so many you know, habitats are available. 0:24:18.160 --> 0:24:20.840 You know, on eagle has a home range and they're 0:24:20.840 --> 0:24:23.040 not going to be super psyched on another bald eagle 0:24:23.080 --> 0:24:26.080 moving into their spot. You know, nest sites are often limited, 0:24:26.880 --> 0:24:29.280 so it's probably a suite of factors that determine whether 0:24:29.320 --> 0:24:33.160 birds days or goes um locality is probably one of them. Yeah, 0:24:33.160 --> 0:24:35.280 that's what I was gonna say. That's where they're, where 0:24:35.280 --> 0:24:38.400 they're born, and where they where they come up. Sure, yeah, 0:24:38.520 --> 0:24:41.000 so so they lead things interesting, you know. And I'm 0:24:41.040 --> 0:24:43.719 not a ballistics expert, but you know, lead has been 0:24:43.760 --> 0:24:45.920 outlawed in a lot of places where there's condors in 0:24:46.320 --> 0:24:50.240 certain waterfowl zones. Maybe maybe across the board, I'm not 0:24:50.280 --> 0:24:53.680 quite sure about that. Most Yeah, it's hard to find 0:24:53.680 --> 0:24:55.440 a place where you can use lead now and they're 0:24:55.520 --> 0:24:57.440 they're you know, in the past was it was a 0:24:57.520 --> 0:24:59.840 huge debate hunters, you know, on the side of you 0:25:00.240 --> 0:25:02.200 lead a lot of in a lot of cases, I think, 0:25:02.200 --> 0:25:05.159 but I think mostly you know, the steel shot has 0:25:05.200 --> 0:25:09.240 become you know, prevalent. Most most hunters you run into 0:25:09.600 --> 0:25:13.640 understand what's going on there. Well, it's hard, you know, um, 0:25:13.840 --> 0:25:15.640 because it happens when you shoot an animal with lead, 0:25:15.760 --> 0:25:19.639 is it fragments? So maybe the birds not swalling the 0:25:19.640 --> 0:25:22.239 whole bullet, But it's getting quite a bit of you know, 0:25:22.240 --> 0:25:24.919 it's the leads pretty well spread out through the end 0:25:24.960 --> 0:25:28.920 of Google that how many states lead shot? Yeah, for hunting, 0:25:28.920 --> 0:25:30.920 because that that's something not something I know off hand, 0:25:31.720 --> 0:25:33.879 but it's hard, right because the alternative might be tungsten. 0:25:34.280 --> 0:25:36.480 And if we're talking about like impact on the environment, 0:25:36.520 --> 0:25:38.520 you know, everything's kind of impact. Well that's yeah. I 0:25:38.520 --> 0:25:42.160 mean I think in the past that the hunting point was, hey, 0:25:42.480 --> 0:25:44.240 if we can't use lead and aim, it gets way 0:25:44.240 --> 0:25:46.320 more expensive and less people go hunting. And it was 0:25:46.359 --> 0:25:48.480 always like, well, this is a submerge of tact to 0:25:49.000 --> 0:25:52.639 have less hunters, and that was always So it's not 0:25:52.680 --> 0:25:55.000 a ballistics thing. People aren't saying lead shoots better than 0:25:55.040 --> 0:25:58.159 a steel I've never heard that. Yeah, I know, not 0:25:58.320 --> 0:26:03.000 a shot shell expert, but I remember early in my 0:26:03.040 --> 0:26:05.199 career that that was a lot of the you know, 0:26:05.280 --> 0:26:07.840 this makes this makes AMMO so much more expensive, and 0:26:08.119 --> 0:26:10.960 that is true in some ways and for all was listening. 0:26:10.960 --> 0:26:13.399 We'll be giving out Ben's personal cell phone nowhere you 0:26:13.440 --> 0:26:16.520 can call and provide feedback on the There's a lot 0:26:16.520 --> 0:26:18.000 of people that are like, I know what this is about. 0:26:18.040 --> 0:26:20.040 He's an idiot, and I don't know much. No, I 0:26:20.040 --> 0:26:26.720 don't how many states allow lead shot hunting. I gotta 0:26:26.760 --> 0:26:28.560 get out like a Googler person so I don't have 0:26:28.600 --> 0:26:30.120 to do it and talk to you the same time 0:26:31.640 --> 0:26:37.119 next time. But yeah, it's interesting thing because it seems 0:26:37.200 --> 0:26:40.440 like the United States banned lead shot for hunting waterfowl, 0:26:41.280 --> 0:26:45.359 and at least states of instituted lead shot restrictions beyond 0:26:45.400 --> 0:26:50.320 those mandated for waterfowl hunting. Yeah, and I probably say 0:26:50.359 --> 0:26:55.800 that most places that support condors are included in that 0:26:55.840 --> 0:26:58.240 list of regions where you can't use lad that says 0:26:58.240 --> 0:27:00.280 there will be a complete ban on the use of 0:27:00.359 --> 0:27:03.320 lead ammunition for any hunting purposes anywhere in the state 0:27:03.359 --> 0:27:08.480 by July one. And this is, um what state is that? 0:27:12.080 --> 0:27:18.680 Now We're going down this rabbit hole. Ammunition other than 0:27:18.840 --> 0:27:22.159 lead required for waterfowl and went hunting with a shotgun 0:27:23.000 --> 0:27:27.200 on wildlife refugees and wildlife production areas. So there's a 0:27:27.280 --> 0:27:29.040 lead Free Hunting dot Com if you want to get 0:27:29.080 --> 0:27:31.720 all the state by state rundown like free Hunting dot 0:27:31.760 --> 0:27:35.120 Com has every single state, UM, and most of them 0:27:35.119 --> 0:27:39.080 are required non toxic ammunition. Yeah, it's just you know, 0:27:39.080 --> 0:27:42.239 it's we talk about stewardship, We talked about, you know, 0:27:42.280 --> 0:27:45.480 being that better hunter, kind of going above and beyond 0:27:45.480 --> 0:27:48.800 in it. You know, we're obviously revealing we're not the 0:27:48.840 --> 0:27:51.320 experts on the topic. But it does seem that, you know, 0:27:51.359 --> 0:27:54.760 avoiding lead if possible, is one way that we can, 0:27:55.280 --> 0:27:57.520 you know, reduce our impact in terms of some of 0:27:57.560 --> 0:28:00.360 these wildlife that kind of get caught up and it's 0:28:00.359 --> 0:28:02.480 something like that this you know now it's you know, 0:28:02.640 --> 0:28:08.840 it's it's understood that lead shot has negative effects on 0:28:08.840 --> 0:28:12.000 on birds. UM, that's an understood thing. And if I'm 0:28:12.040 --> 0:28:15.480 just scrolling down and reading through this, really what I'm 0:28:15.560 --> 0:28:17.359 picking up is, you know, if I were just to 0:28:17.400 --> 0:28:21.280 read Kentucky non toxic gam unition required for dubs in 0:28:21.280 --> 0:28:26.480 thirteen wildlife Refugees Louisiana, non toxic gammunition required for dubs 0:28:26.640 --> 0:28:31.359 at certain wildlife management areas. UM, there's just a bunch 0:28:31.400 --> 0:28:35.399 of different a bunch of different rules and regulations on it, 0:28:35.440 --> 0:28:38.920 but it's generally it's generally accepted. And one of the 0:28:38.960 --> 0:28:41.360 things that's that's cool about this topic I'm glad you 0:28:41.400 --> 0:28:43.160 brought about this is that, you know, I just made 0:28:43.160 --> 0:28:46.800 this film called Skymigrations. It's a film about um raptors 0:28:46.800 --> 0:28:49.800 migrating across two hemispheres in some cases, and you can 0:28:49.840 --> 0:28:53.840 check it on a Vimeo. But the kind of the 0:28:53.840 --> 0:28:56.000 thesis of that film was that a lot of these 0:28:56.040 --> 0:28:58.680 birds of prey require at least two hemispheres worth of 0:28:58.720 --> 0:29:01.600 stewardship to be sustained. You know, there was a famous 0:29:01.640 --> 0:29:05.640 study that I referenced in the film We're Swainson's Hawk Hawks. 0:29:05.800 --> 0:29:09.160 This bird of prey that can migrate from BC all 0:29:09.200 --> 0:29:12.320 the way to the grasslands of Argentina was dying off 0:29:12.360 --> 0:29:16.000 in these huge spates. And what researchers found was that 0:29:16.240 --> 0:29:19.520 if you are poisoning crickets in Argentina, you're going to 0:29:19.640 --> 0:29:25.160 impact a bird that would over summer or reproduce in 0:29:25.200 --> 0:29:27.960 the forest of BCS. So these are these are continental 0:29:28.040 --> 0:29:31.880 wide issues. So the way that we choose to treat 0:29:31.960 --> 0:29:34.880 or stewart or care for our ecosystems in wildlife has 0:29:34.920 --> 0:29:41.040 these repercussion repercussive um you know, kind of impacts that 0:29:41.600 --> 0:29:44.440 go far beyond the in the region of the county 0:29:44.520 --> 0:29:48.240 is that we call home. Yeah, I'm sorry, I'm just reading. 0:29:51.000 --> 0:29:52.440 We're gonna take a short break. I don't take a 0:29:52.480 --> 0:29:54.479 short break, and I could get educated on this very 0:29:54.480 --> 0:29:57.560 important subject. We'll go back to it now that these 0:29:57.560 --> 0:30:00.040 are good like we're talking about the y podcast that 0:30:00.120 --> 0:30:01.720 are cool prior to this, like this is one of 0:30:01.760 --> 0:30:04.160 the cool things because I guarantee maybe you will too. 0:30:04.200 --> 0:30:06.440 And this is over, I'm going to dive deep into 0:30:06.480 --> 0:30:10.800 the rabbit hole of lead ammunition. You're FaceTime like two am, Like, 0:30:11.720 --> 0:30:16.600 guess what, let's start on association already got shirts. Maybe 0:30:16.600 --> 0:30:20.960 it's gonna be great. Um, but yeah, I think it's 0:30:21.080 --> 0:30:24.480 it's there are some things in the hunting community that 0:30:25.680 --> 0:30:28.400 you're as a part of the community. I find that 0:30:28.400 --> 0:30:32.720 we have been traditionally pretty rigid, um and there's been 0:30:32.760 --> 0:30:36.280 a lot of things over the years that we pushed 0:30:36.320 --> 0:30:39.480 back on with initial you know, hey, listen, let's maybe 0:30:39.520 --> 0:30:42.000 not do this, let's maybe not do that, let's maybe 0:30:42.080 --> 0:30:44.840 change our ways there. And in the rigidity of the 0:30:44.840 --> 0:30:48.280 community has always been hey, this is our right, this 0:30:48.360 --> 0:30:50.600 is it's a tradition. And I think there's a new 0:30:50.640 --> 0:30:54.880 generation of of especially my generation that that and yours 0:30:54.920 --> 0:30:57.480 as well, I think a little bit differently around those things. 0:30:57.480 --> 0:31:00.200 So if for example, we were we were all all 0:31:00.200 --> 0:31:04.680 too come upon you know, an issue, we knew like 0:31:04.720 --> 0:31:06.320 you were to bring up an issue, say okay, this 0:31:06.400 --> 0:31:11.160 is happening, hunters are causing this. Um. The honey community 0:31:11.160 --> 0:31:14.000 is a little more malleable nowadays, I think to change 0:31:14.000 --> 0:31:16.880 those things. Yeah, and we kind of talked about it earlier, 0:31:16.880 --> 0:31:19.240 where you know, with the rise of social media and 0:31:19.280 --> 0:31:24.800 podcasts and content outlets, opportunities to learn. I think the 0:31:24.840 --> 0:31:28.960 general public is has blessed this opportunity to be exposed 0:31:29.000 --> 0:31:31.560 to a suite of perspectives. You know, it's not just 0:31:31.640 --> 0:31:33.480 what you might find in Peterson's or what you see 0:31:33.480 --> 0:31:36.400 at Cabela's or what you see in the New York Times. 0:31:36.480 --> 0:31:41.200 You know, there are thousands of perspectives that are packaged 0:31:41.280 --> 0:31:43.640 up and put it your fingertips if you want them. 0:31:44.320 --> 0:31:47.080 And that's awesome because I think it gives people an 0:31:47.080 --> 0:31:50.600 opportunity to be flexible and be plastic and not necessarily say, well, 0:31:50.840 --> 0:31:53.000 this is my news source, so this is my mentor, 0:31:53.080 --> 0:31:56.120 and not swimming to think, um, you know and we don't. 0:31:56.480 --> 0:32:00.840 There's also something to be said for being open to learning, right, Like, 0:32:01.920 --> 0:32:04.560 I was vegetarian for a few years in college. One 0:32:04.560 --> 0:32:07.560 of the reasons was I was broke and the house 0:32:07.600 --> 0:32:09.280 I lived in a lot of the people with vegetarians 0:32:09.440 --> 0:32:12.040 ate mostly plants. I also ate some you know, meat 0:32:12.040 --> 0:32:14.000 here and there, but it was mostly a plant based diet. 0:32:14.680 --> 0:32:18.240 Um I changed people change. You know, you're exposing these things, 0:32:18.360 --> 0:32:22.520 new ideas, new tastes, the concept of knowledge changes for 0:32:22.600 --> 0:32:24.800 us as humans. When I was a kid and you 0:32:24.840 --> 0:32:26.960 were a kid, they were pushing out, they were pushing 0:32:26.960 --> 0:32:29.280 across the table this pyramid. They're like, hey, checked this 0:32:29.320 --> 0:32:31.880 pyramid out. This is how you should eat. It's called 0:32:31.880 --> 0:32:36.880 the food pyramid. Like m hmm. Interesting, Like I don't 0:32:36.960 --> 0:32:40.800 see Simnto's crunch on that. But now, I mean there's 0:32:40.840 --> 0:32:43.960 a you know, many many, many people. You know, there 0:32:44.000 --> 0:32:48.000 are experts in that in those fields that that look 0:32:48.000 --> 0:32:50.880 at that and shake their heads like that's you should 0:32:50.960 --> 0:32:54.280 invert that pyramid. Some people will tell you. But um, 0:32:54.360 --> 0:32:57.360 the one thing about you know I've found about the 0:32:57.480 --> 0:33:00.000 human died and really listening to a lot of podcasts, 0:33:00.120 --> 0:33:02.360 Rogan does a great job, Joe Rogan do is a 0:33:02.360 --> 0:33:05.120 great job of having a bunch of you know, varying 0:33:05.160 --> 0:33:09.280 perspectives on is that it's a it's a fairly personal 0:33:09.320 --> 0:33:11.480 thing of what works for you. But the knowledge you 0:33:11.480 --> 0:33:15.280 can have about you know, calorie intake and heart health. 0:33:15.480 --> 0:33:17.720 I mean, there are a lot of different really smart 0:33:17.760 --> 0:33:21.600 people that that disagree on on those important issues right, 0:33:22.000 --> 0:33:27.120 and every everybody's ecosystem personal ecosystem. As we know, we 0:33:27.160 --> 0:33:30.720 have millions and millions of you know, flora living our guts. 0:33:30.920 --> 0:33:34.320 Those are all different. My wife, she has had, you know, 0:33:34.480 --> 0:33:38.680 some um health issues, not major fortunately, but some things 0:33:38.720 --> 0:33:42.040 that bother her. And she just got some body work done, 0:33:42.200 --> 0:33:45.120 some tests back, and they're like, you're allergic to these 0:33:45.160 --> 0:33:47.280 six things, and she cut them out of her diet. 0:33:47.320 --> 0:33:50.200 She feels great, you know, And that's not a I 0:33:50.280 --> 0:33:54.600 have some ideological issue with this plant or this type 0:33:54.640 --> 0:33:56.560 of food. This is just straight up I feel like 0:33:56.560 --> 0:33:58.240 ship when I eat it, and I'm not gonna eat 0:33:58.280 --> 0:34:01.880 it anymore. You know. Doctors recently told me all gluten. 0:34:02.240 --> 0:34:04.040 He's like, you should eat everything should you should have 0:34:04.040 --> 0:34:06.480 gluten in it? In the hunter percent gluten diet. I 0:34:06.560 --> 0:34:08.680 was like, well, that's odd. But things, I'm just kidding. 0:34:10.080 --> 0:34:15.919 You're like, I love nachos, what everything that's been maybe 0:34:15.920 --> 0:34:20.120 a T shirt everything glue um, But yeah, I know, 0:34:20.200 --> 0:34:23.120 I think that all those things are All those things 0:34:23.120 --> 0:34:26.800 are true, and and it's hard to navigate this world 0:34:27.080 --> 0:34:30.520 with the amount of information that is that would be 0:34:30.560 --> 0:34:34.840 required to do it right. It would really be you 0:34:34.920 --> 0:34:37.400 know even in even if you know the topic of 0:34:37.400 --> 0:34:43.280 this podcast happens to be hunting, even to be holistically 0:34:44.040 --> 0:34:49.480 pure and your hunting pursuits is it's impossible, I believe, 0:34:50.360 --> 0:34:54.400 because things are changing so rapidly. But it's also takes work. 0:34:55.600 --> 0:34:59.959 It takes a lot of work. It takes physical work, 0:35:00.400 --> 0:35:05.759 emotional work, dedication to skills, acquiring of new ones and 0:35:05.760 --> 0:35:08.680 refining the ones that you have. Like that, it's just 0:35:08.800 --> 0:35:11.680 a lot of work. And just like the mental game. 0:35:12.400 --> 0:35:15.960 I mean, we have conversations about things that pop up 0:35:15.960 --> 0:35:21.080 in environmental news or wildlife management. You know, we'll speaking 0:35:21.120 --> 0:35:24.000 for us both. I know we'll spend hours trying to 0:35:24.080 --> 0:35:26.360 understand the issue. I don't. Yeah, there's some stuff that 0:35:26.400 --> 0:35:28.640 I even like. One thing I am sure you could 0:35:28.640 --> 0:35:30.720 say this, dude, that I like about being a writer 0:35:31.600 --> 0:35:33.720 is it gives me time, Like gives me an excuse 0:35:33.760 --> 0:35:37.240 to like really dive into subjects. And sometimes I'll finish 0:35:37.280 --> 0:35:41.520 an article, whether it's long short, Uh, it doesn't really matter. 0:35:42.200 --> 0:35:44.640 I'll get done the article and people will enjoy it. 0:35:45.239 --> 0:35:47.399 And by the time it's a day old, I want 0:35:47.440 --> 0:35:49.920 to write a new one because you've you've learned something 0:35:49.960 --> 0:35:53.640 or I've kind of it opens up a new pathway 0:35:53.680 --> 0:35:55.960 to knowledge and you go down that path and now 0:35:56.000 --> 0:35:57.799 you're like, oh, now I found this and this and this, 0:35:57.840 --> 0:36:00.640 And I think that's just how how how it works, 0:36:01.280 --> 0:36:03.279 it has to be, and I think it speaks this 0:36:03.480 --> 0:36:07.360 this truth that nobody's perfect and growth is all about 0:36:07.400 --> 0:36:10.959 evolving and changing and totally being cool with the fact 0:36:11.000 --> 0:36:12.359 that at one point you had no idea what you're 0:36:12.360 --> 0:36:14.880 talking about, or weren't skilled or weren't experienced. Yeah, and 0:36:14.880 --> 0:36:17.080 I'm not you know, in the hunting space too, and 0:36:17.160 --> 0:36:20.200 especially in the in the hunting media space for a 0:36:20.239 --> 0:36:24.280 long time and and even probably now like you, weren't 0:36:24.280 --> 0:36:27.480 allowed to be popular or influential unless you were an 0:36:27.480 --> 0:36:31.040 expert and and unless you put yourself out there as 0:36:31.560 --> 0:36:35.719 I'm an expert um. And that was important because you know, 0:36:36.719 --> 0:36:39.040 people need to hear from people that are experts in 0:36:39.200 --> 0:36:42.680 the actual act of going hunting, because you need that. 0:36:42.760 --> 0:36:44.799 I mean you need not you know, there's no way 0:36:44.840 --> 0:36:48.480 to gather all the knowledge for um, for archery without 0:36:48.480 --> 0:36:51.000 somebody like John Dudley telling you how to how to 0:36:51.160 --> 0:36:52.719 tune your bow and how to shoot it and how 0:36:52.719 --> 0:36:54.560 to take care of it, how to how to hown 0:36:54.600 --> 0:36:57.760 your skill. I think I watched this video yesterday. Seriously, 0:36:59.160 --> 0:37:01.839 I'm yeah, I'm I'm in the knock on nation man, 0:37:02.080 --> 0:37:04.680 because because I really do want to get better at 0:37:04.680 --> 0:37:08.719 that specifically. But we should hold up guys like that, right. 0:37:09.600 --> 0:37:13.399 But I think now it seems there's two things happening. One, 0:37:13.440 --> 0:37:17.080 I think social media allows anybody to gather followers for 0:37:17.480 --> 0:37:22.600 you know, virtuous or otherwise reasons, reasons that will not 0:37:22.640 --> 0:37:25.800 be listed on this but also people that aren't experts, 0:37:25.840 --> 0:37:30.440 that just have interesting perspectives or are are like intrigued 0:37:30.520 --> 0:37:34.000 by what we do, are able to then also gather 0:37:34.840 --> 0:37:38.120 folks around what they are. So it's starting to diversify 0:37:38.320 --> 0:37:40.480 the type of information people can get. And it doesn't 0:37:40.520 --> 0:37:45.400 always have to be um of self reclaim expert telling 0:37:45.440 --> 0:37:47.920 you exactly how to do something. You can expand your 0:37:47.960 --> 0:37:50.360 knowledge in other ways well, And the experts will always 0:37:50.400 --> 0:37:55.160 tell you that they're constantly learning, they're constantly tweaked defining 0:37:55.200 --> 0:37:58.640 their perspectives. I mean, that's one of the things that 0:37:58.920 --> 0:38:01.200 I revert back to being somebody who spent a lot 0:38:01.200 --> 0:38:03.799 of time in the science academic world. It's like those 0:38:03.800 --> 0:38:08.640 professors every year are trying to improve their previous work. 0:38:09.120 --> 0:38:13.879 And that's the those the underpinnings of scientific exploration. Right, 0:38:13.880 --> 0:38:17.799 You're always improving, and you realize that you put something 0:38:17.800 --> 0:38:22.279 out in the world, as quote unquote truce, there is 0:38:22.320 --> 0:38:25.640 a high chance and you, as a scientist, are dedicated 0:38:25.680 --> 0:38:28.160 to that chance of it being wrong. That's a beautiful Yeah, 0:38:28.200 --> 0:38:30.640 that seeming to be the beauty about science is like 0:38:31.920 --> 0:38:34.080 you're going to be wrong a lot, and that's almost 0:38:34.120 --> 0:38:36.080 the point of it. That is the point of it, 0:38:36.280 --> 0:38:39.200 is that you stand on the shoulders of your predecessors. Yeah. Yeah, 0:38:39.239 --> 0:38:44.520 scientific discoveries is this game of who's wrong next totally 0:38:44.600 --> 0:38:46.960 and and to what degree? To what degree? How how 0:38:47.000 --> 0:38:49.920 wrong are you right? And that's and I think when 0:38:50.000 --> 0:38:53.799 we talk about wildlife management, I think it's important to 0:38:53.840 --> 0:38:58.960 remind people that when a wildlife professional says something about 0:38:58.960 --> 0:39:02.160 an ecosystem or a population of animals, they are doing 0:39:02.200 --> 0:39:08.120 their best job, presumably to interpret something that has identifiable 0:39:08.200 --> 0:39:13.400 unknowns and has probabilities that they can't control, and drivers 0:39:13.400 --> 0:39:16.120 they can't control, and things that they're predicting. And in 0:39:16.160 --> 0:39:19.080 the scientific world, we have when somebody says it's significant 0:39:19.400 --> 0:39:23.720 significant ice loss, significant declines of population you are using 0:39:23.719 --> 0:39:29.160 this thing called the confidence interval. So you're saying this happened, 0:39:29.360 --> 0:39:33.160 and I am confident. This is why there's that five 0:39:33.239 --> 0:39:37.200 percent that is like freaking the X factor. That could 0:39:37.200 --> 0:39:40.719 be anything that could just totally ruin your study. And 0:39:40.800 --> 0:39:43.839 that is an inherent part of the process. So when 0:39:43.880 --> 0:39:47.160 people say things, there's a everybody's admitting out the gates 0:39:47.280 --> 0:39:51.080 there's a chance five at least that you are totally wrong, 0:39:51.560 --> 0:39:53.440 or you are wrong to a certain degree. I say 0:39:53.440 --> 0:39:56.320 that'd be a good way to live your life everything. 0:39:57.560 --> 0:40:00.920 I might write that on the white board. I'm sure 0:40:00.920 --> 0:40:04.200 I'm right about what I'm telling you, right always, But 0:40:04.400 --> 0:40:07.640 I think that's the most most that's a high. That's 0:40:07.760 --> 0:40:10.360 that's on a good day. Mostly it's a fifty fifty. 0:40:10.440 --> 0:40:13.759 But I'm that confident. But you know, I think that's 0:40:13.880 --> 0:40:15.600 you know, it will be a good way to approach 0:40:15.640 --> 0:40:19.440 all things. I think, especially wildlife is so unpredictable, and 0:40:21.280 --> 0:40:23.880 nature is so unpredictable. You know, you just have to 0:40:23.920 --> 0:40:28.399 identify trends and identify how things you like you said, 0:40:28.520 --> 0:40:32.960 use history too to guide you well. And you know, 0:40:33.000 --> 0:40:34.920 as we all know, we all have our hunting spots 0:40:34.960 --> 0:40:36.799 and like the place that you hunt down the road 0:40:36.880 --> 0:40:39.440 is different than place you hunt two counties over, and 0:40:39.680 --> 0:40:43.919 that is an indication that ecosystems change every space and time. Yeah, 0:40:43.920 --> 0:40:45.480 and I think that's, you know, one of the more 0:40:45.560 --> 0:40:50.520 successful ventures around the successful parts of our model of conservation. 0:40:50.560 --> 0:40:52.480 So if you look at the North American mileth Conservation, 0:40:52.520 --> 0:40:59.480 it says very um. It says wildlife belongs to everyone, 0:41:00.040 --> 0:41:02.640 held in trust by the states, and what the states 0:41:02.640 --> 0:41:06.320 will then do is use science and wild if biology 0:41:06.360 --> 0:41:10.800 to determine how best to manage that wildlife. And I 0:41:10.840 --> 0:41:14.920 think that's something I've always come back to. Is you know, 0:41:15.040 --> 0:41:16.840 if if I would ask you, and I don't know 0:41:17.560 --> 0:41:19.640 near as much as you, um, but I'll have to 0:41:19.680 --> 0:41:24.799 ask you this question, why do you think when do 0:41:24.880 --> 0:41:26.600 you think do you think the North American model of 0:41:26.640 --> 0:41:30.200 wildlife controvation has been successful? Your answer would be yes, 0:41:30.280 --> 0:41:34.840 absolutely great Now again, yeah, we're friends again. Uh. The 0:41:34.880 --> 0:41:38.600 second question in there is why, Like at its heart, 0:41:38.640 --> 0:41:40.439 I mean, I'm sure there's many, many reasons, but why 0:41:40.880 --> 0:41:44.480 if you had to give one, I think the hy 0:41:44.680 --> 0:41:47.440 is illustrated in our successes. I mean, we have brought 0:41:47.480 --> 0:41:53.840 species back from the brink of extinction big like mega fauna, bison, wolves, ungulus, 0:41:53.960 --> 0:41:56.120 you know, white tailed deer. There was a point where 0:41:57.400 --> 0:42:01.160 King Ranch and Texas was sending year into the southeast. 0:42:01.600 --> 0:42:03.600 Now we have more white tailed deer on the continent 0:42:03.600 --> 0:42:06.759 than ever before, maybe in his history. I think looking 0:42:06.760 --> 0:42:10.200 at the successes and is an indication the models working. Um, 0:42:10.320 --> 0:42:12.240 Teddy Roosevelt try to come out and shoot a bison, 0:42:12.800 --> 0:42:15.400 you had trouble finding one? Yeah, what's what's the U? 0:42:15.520 --> 0:42:18.520 The quote is I was never in sight of a 0:42:18.520 --> 0:42:20.920 live one and out of sight of a dead one, 0:42:21.480 --> 0:42:25.400 you know. So I think they're in lies the the 0:42:25.480 --> 0:42:28.680 impact of that model on North America. Um. You know, 0:42:28.680 --> 0:42:33.240 we're also blessed to have political, you know, relatively stable 0:42:33.239 --> 0:42:37.440 political and social landscapes, economic landscapes, economic landscapes. I think 0:42:37.440 --> 0:42:40.399 a lot of other countries that come to mind where 0:42:40.400 --> 0:42:43.680 a wildlife are Dwin blame is is maybe not necessarily 0:42:43.680 --> 0:42:47.000 a function of lack of effort, but lack of stability 0:42:47.040 --> 0:42:50.799 across those different landscapes. Um. So we kind of have 0:42:51.000 --> 0:42:53.560 like the suite of drivers, I think has given us 0:42:53.560 --> 0:42:57.520 the opportunity to leverage that model and and be successful. 0:42:58.400 --> 0:43:01.560 I think also we have a culture and American culture 0:43:01.640 --> 0:43:07.000 that truly does value the outdoors, that you know, do 0:43:07.239 --> 0:43:11.040 value public lands and wildlife. So there's that social incentive 0:43:11.440 --> 0:43:14.400 to kind of push science and push conservation. But we 0:43:14.440 --> 0:43:17.400 also have an amazing, um, you know, body of checks 0:43:17.400 --> 0:43:20.880 and balances. Right. Science is there to inform the way 0:43:20.920 --> 0:43:26.040 that policies are incorporated into law, and we also have 0:43:26.080 --> 0:43:30.120 a legal framework that says are these policies being done 0:43:30.200 --> 0:43:33.360 in a legal way through different acts, whether it's the 0:43:33.560 --> 0:43:37.400 s A or the Clean Water Clean Air Act. Um. So, 0:43:37.440 --> 0:43:38.880 I think we we've done a good job. And I 0:43:38.920 --> 0:43:41.440 think you know, the fact that we still have the 0:43:41.520 --> 0:43:44.920 Yellowstone River cranking out clean water filled with trout, and 0:43:44.920 --> 0:43:48.319 we have herds of elk and you know, flocks of 0:43:48.360 --> 0:43:51.040 birds flying overhead, is we're doing a pretty darn good 0:43:51.080 --> 0:43:54.799 job given the circumstances. Yeah, I mean, yeah, given the circumstances. Right, 0:43:54.840 --> 0:43:56.880 I mean, I think what I always wondered about our 0:43:56.880 --> 0:43:59.440 mild conservation, which obviously, when we talk about little North 0:43:59.440 --> 0:44:01.879 American math of conservation, we should say that that wasn't 0:44:01.920 --> 0:44:05.279 a thing until the eighties when Dr Valarious Geist and 0:44:05.320 --> 0:44:08.360 folks like Shane my Owny decide we need to codify 0:44:08.440 --> 0:44:12.960 it and call it something. Um. But when we talk 0:44:13.040 --> 0:44:16.840 about it, you know, I wonder, you just I always 0:44:16.880 --> 0:44:19.800 wondered what you know it was. It was a reaction 0:44:19.840 --> 0:44:22.360 to a problem, right, it was medicine to an illness. 0:44:23.760 --> 0:44:29.280 And so will there be a time in our society 0:44:29.320 --> 0:44:31.879 again where we're ill enough that we need to create 0:44:31.880 --> 0:44:34.759 a new medicine? You know, right now we're fine, I 0:44:34.800 --> 0:44:40.759 would say, I would say relatively fine in terms of wildlife, um, 0:44:41.880 --> 0:44:44.959 relative to where we've been. Sure, you know, I wonder 0:44:44.960 --> 0:44:46.600 if they will ever be time again, whether it will 0:44:46.640 --> 0:44:49.320 be so ill that we need to, you know, create 0:44:49.360 --> 0:44:52.319 some new medicine. I think so. I mean, the ESA 0:44:52.440 --> 0:44:54.399 came about in seventies three, It wasn't that long ago, 0:44:54.600 --> 0:44:57.000 and those are like that's our parents hera, yeah, you know, 0:44:57.320 --> 0:45:00.719 I mean at that point, a lot of species we're 0:45:00.719 --> 0:45:04.400 pretty much close to gone. Our oceans are dealing with 0:45:04.520 --> 0:45:06.560 some serious things, a lot of them that we can't control. 0:45:06.600 --> 0:45:08.879 It's it's one thing to manage an elk population within 0:45:08.920 --> 0:45:11.680 the borders of our country. It's another thing to manage 0:45:12.040 --> 0:45:17.719 Pacific salmon that are using waters from the Korean Peninsula 0:45:17.760 --> 0:45:20.600 all the way to you know, southern California perhaps in 0:45:20.600 --> 0:45:25.440 some cases. So I think there will be remedies and 0:45:25.440 --> 0:45:29.040 and prescriptions that need to come about to address our 0:45:29.120 --> 0:45:32.000 changing planet and these changing threats to our wildlife and 0:45:32.120 --> 0:45:35.480 natural spaces. UM. Is there any you think that are 0:45:35.520 --> 0:45:38.200 broad enough that would have the same effect that this 0:45:38.480 --> 0:45:41.560 that model has had as they're going to even on 0:45:41.600 --> 0:45:45.000 a conceptual level, it's worked. Well, yeah, I mean it's 0:45:45.120 --> 0:45:50.680 it's it's um. It's a complicated, UM issue. But one 0:45:50.719 --> 0:45:54.000 that comes to mind is the Bristol Bay Watershed. I mean, 0:45:54.080 --> 0:45:57.440 there was a bill, a measure, ballot measure one that 0:45:57.640 --> 0:46:02.600 failed in Alaska this midterm election that would have past 0:46:02.760 --> 0:46:05.960 legislation to make it quite a bit more difficult to 0:46:07.160 --> 0:46:12.239 develop or create minds or do make big changes to 0:46:12.280 --> 0:46:16.280 the landscape and Bristol Bays Watershed. Um. Bristol Bays Watershed 0:46:16.400 --> 0:46:20.080 is the last real home to a robust salmon population 0:46:20.160 --> 0:46:24.040 where millions of fish return every year. I think that's shortsighted, 0:46:24.320 --> 0:46:26.640 you know. I think it's it's like a mini es 0:46:26.760 --> 0:46:29.080 A that should be that I believe should have been 0:46:29.080 --> 0:46:33.640 passed to protect something that you can't bring back, that 0:46:33.640 --> 0:46:35.960 that's impossible, Like you can restore a creek in your 0:46:35.960 --> 0:46:38.000 local community, and maybe you get like to salmon that 0:46:38.080 --> 0:46:40.160 come back, you know, the East Coast, they're taking down 0:46:40.920 --> 0:46:43.480 historic mill dams in Atlantic Salmon are coming back in 0:46:43.520 --> 0:46:47.600 some cases, but not ten million Atlantic salmon. I mean, 0:46:47.600 --> 0:46:50.040 we have millions of fish coming to Bristo Way Watershed 0:46:50.320 --> 0:46:54.359 and all the wildlife that rely on that ecosystem. Um. So, 0:46:54.440 --> 0:46:56.520 I do think there will be times in history in 0:46:56.520 --> 0:47:00.400 the near future, if not the current day, where do 0:47:00.440 --> 0:47:06.680 you have opportunities to pass legislation and policy that can 0:47:06.800 --> 0:47:13.000 have sweeping, you know, benefits ecosystems that are very much imperiled. Um. Yeah. 0:47:13.040 --> 0:47:15.400 And again it's it's it's one thing to manage a 0:47:15.520 --> 0:47:18.160 landlocked population of elk. It's another thing to manage a 0:47:18.200 --> 0:47:22.000 migratory bird, or a or a fish, um or animals 0:47:22.000 --> 0:47:26.279 that rely on an ocean, an international ocean. Yeah. I 0:47:26.280 --> 0:47:29.040 think I was, just as you're talking, googling the North 0:47:29.040 --> 0:47:31.440 American Midle of conservation because I feel like I've never 0:47:33.239 --> 0:47:35.440 on this podcast. We've always talked about it, but we've 0:47:35.480 --> 0:47:38.200 never kind of went through it right in much detail. 0:47:38.600 --> 0:47:41.280 Um So, let's do that in a little bit of detail. 0:47:41.960 --> 0:47:43.960 So the tenants I could I can rattle off like 0:47:44.000 --> 0:47:46.160 maybe five of the seven tenants, but I haven't in 0:47:46.160 --> 0:47:48.040 front of me now, so I'll just rattle them off. 0:47:48.800 --> 0:47:52.799 This is the the core principles of this model, of 0:47:52.840 --> 0:47:55.520 our model conservation are are built around some tenants, and 0:47:55.520 --> 0:47:58.359 there's seven of them. I just reading to you. Wildlife 0:47:58.400 --> 0:48:02.359 is public trust resources, which we've discussed already, elimination of 0:48:02.440 --> 0:48:07.680 markets for game, which we've talked around already, allocation of 0:48:07.719 --> 0:48:11.520 wildlife by law, which we've talked about already. Wildlife should 0:48:11.560 --> 0:48:14.640 only be killed for a legitimate purpose, which we've certainly 0:48:14.640 --> 0:48:17.960 talked about. You know, I would say mining, it's not 0:48:18.000 --> 0:48:20.719 a legitimate purpose for killing wildlife. Well, and there's a 0:48:20.719 --> 0:48:24.560 lot of repercussions, right, you build a highway or you 0:48:24.560 --> 0:48:29.439 you frack a landscape, and that has repercussive implications. Absolutely does. 0:48:30.719 --> 0:48:34.840 Wildlife is considered an international resource. Science is the proper 0:48:34.880 --> 0:48:38.280 tool for discharge of wildlife policy sure makes you happy, 0:48:38.960 --> 0:48:42.120 me too. And then the democracy of hunting. So I 0:48:42.120 --> 0:48:46.480 mean that you know, those are just overarching tenants. I mean, 0:48:46.520 --> 0:48:49.280 there's more details for each of those. But if if 0:48:49.360 --> 0:48:51.400 you're out there and we're talking about this model, and 0:48:51.440 --> 0:48:55.759 you're not aware. There's your starting point. Go and learn 0:48:55.800 --> 0:48:59.640 about those tenants and try to get yourself educated on 0:49:00.040 --> 0:49:02.880 actually how the success story came to be, because I 0:49:02.880 --> 0:49:06.040 think it's important, absolutely, And I think having that context 0:49:06.040 --> 0:49:09.600 and also that framework to inject your personal experience into 0:49:09.760 --> 0:49:14.120 gives um, it gives meaning to I think the way 0:49:14.160 --> 0:49:17.000 that you approach your time hunting, or your time get 0:49:17.040 --> 0:49:21.319 an advocate, or your time just being part of the community. Yeah. Yeah, 0:49:21.360 --> 0:49:24.239 and then and then it informs things like the E 0:49:24.520 --> 0:49:28.080 S A and and and some of the legislation you'll 0:49:28.080 --> 0:49:29.920 see on ballots if you have an understanding of like 0:49:30.640 --> 0:49:34.680 what what makes a successful And again, folks that are 0:49:34.760 --> 0:49:41.600 voting vote on these complex value system based decisions. Um. 0:49:41.640 --> 0:49:43.879 But I think having a general you know, as you're 0:49:43.960 --> 0:49:48.120 voting on something like that, you know, Connecticut's UM amendment 0:49:48.160 --> 0:49:50.480 to or the the amendment for Bristol Bay in alask 0:49:50.480 --> 0:49:52.000 because like if you if those things come up on 0:49:52.360 --> 0:49:55.919 mid term elections or whenever they come up. Um, having 0:49:55.960 --> 0:49:58.120 a general idea of the framework of our model of 0:49:58.160 --> 0:50:01.200 conservation can even a je real idea, even if it's 0:50:01.239 --> 0:50:04.040 not as nuanced as yours, even a general idea can 0:50:04.080 --> 0:50:07.600 help you test you know, put that seven tenants to 0:50:07.680 --> 0:50:10.160 test when you see something on a ballot, like is 0:50:10.200 --> 0:50:14.960 this in line with these seven things? And it gets complicated, 0:50:15.040 --> 0:50:18.520 right because you know, we just um, we had the 0:50:18.520 --> 0:50:21.319 Grizzly Bear decision, and we've had some other big decisions 0:50:21.320 --> 0:50:24.080 like the Bristol Bay decision. I mean, these are decisions 0:50:24.120 --> 0:50:28.600 that are made that lean on science, but also are 0:50:28.760 --> 0:50:33.880 determined through the lens of law, and law by nature 0:50:33.960 --> 0:50:38.120 is interpreted. Right. Our constitution is pretty darn vague, but 0:50:38.360 --> 0:50:43.359 our our country works, our world as Americans functions through 0:50:43.480 --> 0:50:49.839 the interpretation of that law. So that's good and bad 0:50:49.920 --> 0:50:52.640 for the people who disagree with it in whatever case 0:50:52.880 --> 0:50:56.200 we can think of. Um. But I also think it 0:50:56.200 --> 0:50:59.560 provides checks and balances, you know, and I think having 0:50:59.680 --> 0:51:03.000 faith in the process, even though sometimes doesn't come out 0:51:03.320 --> 0:51:05.279 the way you'd like it to, you know. I think 0:51:05.280 --> 0:51:09.080 about the Alaska issue that didn't pass, but having worked 0:51:09.120 --> 0:51:11.600 with some of the folks behind the campaign to promote 0:51:11.800 --> 0:51:15.239 Measure one, they look at that losses an opportunity to 0:51:15.239 --> 0:51:19.560 build more ground swell and do better the next time. Um, 0:51:19.600 --> 0:51:21.000 you know, and if we want to get into it, 0:51:21.200 --> 0:51:23.080 you know, we can. But like the Grizzly Bear thing, 0:51:23.160 --> 0:51:25.360 but we're going to yeah, you know, I think I 0:51:25.360 --> 0:51:28.839 think that's why, you know, talking through all these things 0:51:28.880 --> 0:51:33.600 and like a very you know, feet is great. It's 0:51:33.640 --> 0:51:36.880 easy to do. But I think the Grizzly Bearer decision, 0:51:37.680 --> 0:51:40.040 I think both sides of that decision want to make it. 0:51:40.760 --> 0:51:44.240 We want to turn it into a slippery slope. Yeah, 0:51:44.560 --> 0:51:47.360 And I hate slippery slopes because I think slipper slopes 0:51:47.360 --> 0:51:52.320 are fucking lazy except slipping slide, except as a sprinkler 0:51:52.320 --> 0:51:57.960 in it. But I think slippery slopes. I first came 0:51:58.000 --> 0:52:06.480 to this opinion around gun rights, right, I truly believe 0:52:06.520 --> 0:52:11.040 in in I believe it wholeheartedly that gun rights are 0:52:11.120 --> 0:52:14.279 important part of my freedom as an American. Like, I 0:52:14.640 --> 0:52:16.440 believe it, and I've thought it through. And it's not 0:52:16.520 --> 0:52:20.040 because I like thirty round magazines, but it's part of 0:52:20.080 --> 0:52:23.200 defending my family in any situation that may come up, 0:52:23.400 --> 0:52:27.960 all right, And so when somebody challenges that, it's easy 0:52:27.960 --> 0:52:29.200 for me to fall back on it. Well, it's a 0:52:29.200 --> 0:52:31.240 slippery slope. If you take this one little thing away, 0:52:31.280 --> 0:52:35.600 then then all of that may fall. But again, I 0:52:35.680 --> 0:52:39.239 just think that's lazy. And the more passionate you are 0:52:39.280 --> 0:52:41.120 about an issue, the more you feel like it goes 0:52:41.160 --> 0:52:43.640 to your freedoms and your humanity or your citizenship of 0:52:43.680 --> 0:52:46.359 this country, I think, the more you fall back on 0:52:47.320 --> 0:52:51.719 the rather lazy, an idealistic, slippery slope. Don't take any 0:52:51.760 --> 0:52:55.320 of it because I need all of it, right. Um, 0:52:55.360 --> 0:52:58.800 But that's not to your to your That can't always 0:52:58.800 --> 0:53:01.520 be right the it happens, and it doesn't have to 0:53:01.560 --> 0:53:05.040 be a reaction, right, um. You know, and I think 0:53:05.080 --> 0:53:09.560 the grizzly Um, so let's set up the grizzly thing. Yeah, 0:53:09.600 --> 0:53:11.960 let's take as far back as your knowledge will will 0:53:12.000 --> 0:53:14.480 allow us to go. And I'll hold out shine in 0:53:14.560 --> 0:53:17.320 if I know something. But yeah, and just as a 0:53:17.320 --> 0:53:19.960 as a disclaimer, you know, I'm an ecologist, but not 0:53:20.000 --> 0:53:22.080 a grizzly bear biologist. And I'm just a guy with 0:53:22.120 --> 0:53:24.520 a podcast. I don't know anything. So I've done my 0:53:24.560 --> 0:53:26.520 I've done my homework, you know, as best as I can. 0:53:26.600 --> 0:53:29.760 There's obviously more to be done, but the general gist 0:53:29.760 --> 0:53:35.440 of it is that ye Yessa comes about. Um. The ESA, 0:53:35.520 --> 0:53:38.640 the Endangered Species Act is an act that intends to 0:53:38.880 --> 0:53:42.600 identify species that are threatened or endangered threatened species or 0:53:42.600 --> 0:53:47.040 species that are at risk of becoming close to extinction, 0:53:47.760 --> 0:53:50.080 And how do they determine that. It's going to be 0:53:50.120 --> 0:53:53.880 looking at number of individuals, number, amount of critical habitat 0:53:53.920 --> 0:53:59.919 that's available, um pending or foreseeable threats to those populations, 0:54:00.040 --> 0:54:03.080 species at large or subspecies. Does any of that have 0:54:03.200 --> 0:54:08.880 to do with their historic population numbers? It does, but 0:54:09.920 --> 0:54:13.960 within that context, they're looking at available critical habitat. So bison, 0:54:14.000 --> 0:54:18.520 for example, bison would have existed from you know, ah, 0:54:18.680 --> 0:54:21.960 the Canadian border to the Rocky mountain front, maybe a 0:54:21.960 --> 0:54:25.040 little bit west of the Rockies in some places down 0:54:25.080 --> 0:54:29.040 to uh to Mexico over to the Mississippi River. So 0:54:29.080 --> 0:54:31.440 that would have been there like historic range to my knowledge, 0:54:31.440 --> 0:54:35.520 and and they continuous, you know, lower forty eight. Obviously 0:54:36.600 --> 0:54:40.200 bison are a fraction what they were. But we're not 0:54:40.560 --> 0:54:43.360 you know, bison conservation or restoration. Granted they're not listed. 0:54:43.440 --> 0:54:45.919 This is maybe not a good example, but point being, 0:54:46.360 --> 0:54:49.320 they're not looking at putting them back across that available habitat. 0:54:49.520 --> 0:54:52.160 They're saying, where can we put bison yea where they 0:54:52.160 --> 0:54:54.600 can thrive once again? And right? And what makes sense? 0:54:55.160 --> 0:54:57.440 So when we talk about you know, wolves, it's the 0:54:57.480 --> 0:55:00.360 same thing. They're not trying to reintroduce wolves to tire 0:55:00.440 --> 0:55:04.480 lower forty eight. They're saying wolves, uh, you know, the 0:55:04.560 --> 0:55:07.919 upper Peninsula of Michigan are listed. Where can we put 0:55:08.160 --> 0:55:11.520 wolves where there's habitat that's available. So you're taking an 0:55:11.520 --> 0:55:17.360 inventory of animals that exist, habitat that exists or could exist, 0:55:18.040 --> 0:55:23.880 and and then creating basically a blueprint to make opportunities 0:55:23.880 --> 0:55:27.040 for more animals to uh you know produced, be produced, 0:55:27.400 --> 0:55:30.200 and to have that available habit to be occupied. And 0:55:30.200 --> 0:55:33.239 the important thing about putting more animals on in the 0:55:33.360 --> 0:55:35.960 in the in the mix and having more habitat, and 0:55:36.040 --> 0:55:39.279 then you have more distinct populations. And the reason why 0:55:39.400 --> 0:55:42.760 distinct populations are important is because then you get genetic diversity. 0:55:43.280 --> 0:55:45.399 If you have an island of inbreads, they're not gonna 0:55:45.400 --> 0:55:50.360 be very resilient to UM issues that could drive declients 0:55:50.400 --> 0:55:54.400 that population. Whether it's exactly so you're looking at it 0:55:54.520 --> 0:55:58.400 through this like matrix of of UM kind of Uh. 0:55:58.560 --> 0:56:00.960 It's like a safety net, right, More animals a better 0:56:00.960 --> 0:56:04.719 and more populations, the better diversity is the best UM. 0:56:04.800 --> 0:56:08.000 So with the grizzly bears, you know pre seventy three 0:56:08.239 --> 0:56:10.240 you would have had grizzly bears would have been extinct 0:56:10.239 --> 0:56:12.480 in California, you would have had a lower forty eight 0:56:12.480 --> 0:56:14.560 population that was I don't know the numbers off the 0:56:14.560 --> 0:56:16.640 top of my head, but you know, to the point 0:56:16.640 --> 0:56:19.560 they needed to be listed. It was in the hundreds, right, 0:56:19.600 --> 0:56:22.600 I mean the hundred and thirties. Maybe, yeah, I bet 0:56:22.600 --> 0:56:25.880 you that's close to it. Um but depleted, you know, 0:56:25.920 --> 0:56:30.200 I would venture to say, like well over with very 0:56:30.200 --> 0:56:33.520 little available habitat relative to what was once available pre 0:56:33.600 --> 0:56:36.839 European settlement. So you have seventy three, yes, a comes 0:56:36.840 --> 0:56:40.480 about I believe it was seventy five they were listed. 0:56:42.040 --> 0:56:45.560 Then something interesting happened in seventy eight where there was 0:56:45.600 --> 0:56:48.040 an amendment made to the Danger Species Act that allowed 0:56:48.400 --> 0:56:53.759 um distinct population segments to be listed are unlisted. That 0:56:53.880 --> 0:56:56.080 was the year that gray wolf was added to the ESA. 0:56:57.080 --> 0:57:00.760 So people are probably thinking, okay, well, with the gray wolf, 0:57:00.800 --> 0:57:03.480 you can have a distinct population that was listed as 0:57:03.600 --> 0:57:08.200 endangered in the Upper Peninsula Michigan area, and then you 0:57:08.200 --> 0:57:10.759 can have gray wolves in Montana that you can hunt 0:57:10.840 --> 0:57:12.720 and are managed by the states, and they're not listed. 0:57:13.360 --> 0:57:17.080 Grizzly bears, to my understanding were listed before that amendment 0:57:17.160 --> 0:57:20.560 was made, so they were listed as a sub, as 0:57:20.560 --> 0:57:23.800 a species, as a lower forty eight collective. Because I 0:57:23.840 --> 0:57:25.800 think that becomes that would become a big part of 0:57:25.840 --> 0:57:31.560 this conversation around those distinct populations and how we managed 0:57:31.720 --> 0:57:34.960 and so so I guess you would posit that it's 0:57:34.960 --> 0:57:38.200 not that's the fact. That's the reason why this is 0:57:38.200 --> 0:57:42.000 a larger issue. It's complicated. There's you know, I have 0:57:42.320 --> 0:57:48.440 the entire printed out UM decision by We're gonna turn 0:57:48.440 --> 0:57:50.720 on some elevator museum and have you read the entire 0:57:50.920 --> 0:57:53.880 It's only forty something pages. It's not bad, it's not no, 0:57:54.000 --> 0:57:56.360 and it's actually written. There is some legal jargon, but 0:57:56.400 --> 0:57:58.880 you can if anybody's listening is interested, you can download 0:57:58.880 --> 0:58:02.240 this on the internet. UM, it's readily available. It's actually 0:58:02.240 --> 0:58:04.760 not that complicated. There's you'll skim over some of it 0:58:04.760 --> 0:58:07.800 doesn't make sense because it's illegal, but there is some uh, 0:58:08.040 --> 0:58:11.520 some well written stuff in there that anybody would should 0:58:11.520 --> 0:58:16.040 be able to pull apart and understand. Um. Super informative. UM. 0:58:16.040 --> 0:58:18.600 But yeah, so this the population segment thing is one 0:58:18.920 --> 0:58:22.880 aspect UM. So without getting too far ahead of ourselves, 0:58:22.920 --> 0:58:26.520 grizzy bears were dwindled to a point of needing protection. 0:58:27.080 --> 0:58:29.760 They're listed they established have protection in seventy three and 0:58:29.760 --> 0:58:32.800 then seventy they were listed as a species in lower 0:58:32.800 --> 0:58:37.440 forty eight, Alaska's its own thing. And then population there 0:58:37.440 --> 0:58:43.400 were some population ecosystems that were identified. Um, I'm gonna 0:58:43.600 --> 0:58:45.560 kind of butcher this, but the main two that that 0:58:45.800 --> 0:58:51.360 actually have viable populations are the the Continental Divide population, 0:58:51.400 --> 0:58:53.880 which is like the Bob and Glacier National Park, and 0:58:53.880 --> 0:58:56.200 then you have the Good or yells On ecosystem. You 0:58:56.240 --> 0:58:58.600 also have the cell Kirks and the Cascades, and I 0:58:58.640 --> 0:59:00.960 believe there's six and full, but really the only two 0:59:01.000 --> 0:59:04.160 that really matter on like a functional level is the 0:59:04.240 --> 0:59:09.520 Continental or the Continental Divide and the Greater Yellowstone because 0:59:09.840 --> 0:59:13.920 between those two populations conservatively there's maybe close to two 0:59:13.920 --> 0:59:21.240 thousand bears. Those other four ecosystems have handfuls, so they're 0:59:21.240 --> 0:59:25.200 functionally from like a eco from a species preservation standpoint, 0:59:25.920 --> 0:59:29.480 are valuable but not being considered, you know, to a 0:59:29.480 --> 0:59:32.760 certain degree, because it really this this determination, this court 0:59:32.800 --> 0:59:35.960 case was around the dealist you know, the Greater Yellowstone population. 0:59:37.920 --> 0:59:41.200 So we get to this point where grizzly bears are 0:59:41.520 --> 0:59:47.160 relegated to Glacier in the Bob and Yellowstone and the 0:59:47.360 --> 0:59:51.040 states work in a conjunction of the federal agencies, say 0:59:51.160 --> 0:59:54.520 we're going to put together a recovery plan, an inter 0:59:54.640 --> 1:00:00.040 agency group of federal, state, local biologists and constituent and 1:00:00.200 --> 1:00:01.680 we're gonna try to get these bears back to a 1:00:01.680 --> 1:00:06.560 place of stability. The Bob population and the Glacier populations, 1:00:13.520 --> 1:00:16.080 I know, like, um, so yeah, the Bob Marshall is 1:00:16.120 --> 1:00:18.080 just a little south of Glacier National Park. It's this 1:00:18.160 --> 1:00:22.640 kind of big swath of pretty wild landscapes so known 1:00:22.680 --> 1:00:28.040 for its remoteness. Yes, um, and so the Greater Yellasun 1:00:28.080 --> 1:00:34.400 population gets to a point where the of US Fish 1:00:34.440 --> 1:00:37.920 and Wildlife and the States Idaho, Wyoming in Montana in 1:00:37.960 --> 1:00:40.920 this case, say we've got this place. This population a 1:00:40.960 --> 1:00:44.040 pretty healthy number. You know, we're looking at conservatively seven 1:00:44.080 --> 1:00:47.560 hundred bears and this is two thousand seven. This I 1:00:47.560 --> 1:00:51.320 think it happened twice. It was like seven. There were 1:00:51.360 --> 1:00:58.880 efforts to dealist and those efforts were um stifled. I 1:00:58.880 --> 1:01:00.000 guess that is the word you could say. You're not 1:01:00.000 --> 1:01:06.440 stife rejected on various grounds. One of the grounds that 1:01:06.520 --> 1:01:10.800 comes to mind that that's kind of interesting is the 1:01:10.920 --> 1:01:14.240 judge saying, we'll wait a second. A lot of grizzly 1:01:14.280 --> 1:01:20.200 bears in the Greater Yellowstone rely on white bark pine. 1:01:20.840 --> 1:01:26.400 So what's happening on planet Earth? As we're having in 1:01:26.560 --> 1:01:30.560 northern Northern Hemisphere ecosystems are having warmer winters, we're having 1:01:30.720 --> 1:01:33.200 drought in a lot of places, especially in the Inner 1:01:33.200 --> 1:01:37.920 Mountain West in California for that matter. Um that those 1:01:38.000 --> 1:01:42.560 dry winters, warm winters and droughts are causing these pines 1:01:42.680 --> 1:01:44.480 to die. One of the reasons it's because you have 1:01:44.480 --> 1:01:47.120 a pine beetle that used to be kept in checked 1:01:47.120 --> 1:01:51.000 by cold winters sub zero that would keep those pine 1:01:51.040 --> 1:01:55.000 beetles from from proliferating. But now with these warm winters, 1:01:55.360 --> 1:01:59.920 these pine beetle infestations are killing millions and millions of treats. 1:02:00.000 --> 1:02:02.560 This happens in other populations too, I know, like moose 1:02:03.440 --> 1:02:07.320 up north in Minnesota are have been you know, they'll 1:02:07.360 --> 1:02:12.120 positive that there've been ticks that are alive longer because 1:02:12.120 --> 1:02:16.240 it's warmer into this summer time. So, yeah, read about 1:02:16.280 --> 1:02:19.160 that a lot if you really look. Yeah, so these 1:02:19.160 --> 1:02:23.760 warmer winters are are a big deal and that was 1:02:23.800 --> 1:02:28.120 something that that uh, the judges used to halt the 1:02:28.160 --> 1:02:32.040 de listing. Then in time more research was done, it 1:02:32.120 --> 1:02:35.120 was presented, UM, and that was one of the things 1:02:35.160 --> 1:02:37.440 that was presented before this court case, the most current 1:02:37.440 --> 1:02:41.600 one and what the judge and the professionals that were 1:02:41.600 --> 1:02:46.160 involved in the de listing or the regulatory process determined was, yes, 1:02:46.280 --> 1:02:50.360 white bark pines are declining throughout their range and we'll 1:02:50.400 --> 1:02:52.920 talk about the California fires to that's a big thing there. 1:02:52.960 --> 1:02:56.480 But on the top of grizzly bears, Um, that is true. 1:02:56.680 --> 1:02:59.240 But we also have found three more throw research that 1:02:59.320 --> 1:03:02.560 these grizzly bearers are very flexible and in biology called 1:03:02.560 --> 1:03:06.200 it plastic. They're omnivorous. They can eat anything from a 1:03:06.280 --> 1:03:09.240 nut to a dead moose, to a berry, to grass 1:03:09.320 --> 1:03:11.680 to a fish. That's one of the great things about 1:03:11.720 --> 1:03:17.280 Christy bears. So what's happening is the the biologists said, Okay, 1:03:17.280 --> 1:03:21.840 well they've actually they're doing well. They've just adapted. So 1:03:21.920 --> 1:03:24.680 that was kind of checked as addressed. We're moving on 1:03:25.600 --> 1:03:29.840 in the in this most recent hearing. What the two 1:03:29.880 --> 1:03:33.280 main things, um, So let's set let's set up some 1:03:33.320 --> 1:03:35.800 of the history to this, and folks that are UM 1:03:36.080 --> 1:03:38.880 hopefully listen to this have have some background on this. 1:03:39.000 --> 1:03:46.080 But there's two essentially two sides, right. There are animal 1:03:46.200 --> 1:03:49.720 rights activists on one and on the other side there 1:03:49.760 --> 1:03:52.800 are I mean, I just tell me if I'm wrong, 1:03:52.920 --> 1:03:59.000 hunters and state game officials from Wyoming on the other. 1:03:59.560 --> 1:04:01.600 Is that it's about right. Yeah, And i'd hope probably 1:04:01.600 --> 1:04:05.480 a certain degree. Montana opted to not partake in the YEP. 1:04:05.520 --> 1:04:08.080 They went on a zero zero tag basis something the 1:04:08.080 --> 1:04:11.200 guida who had what to one one to my understanding, 1:04:11.200 --> 1:04:13.880 and well, I mean had twenty two UM. And so 1:04:14.000 --> 1:04:17.560 you have UM one side of the coin, which is 1:04:18.320 --> 1:04:23.040 we've expressed as advocates for hunter groups and um biologists 1:04:23.080 --> 1:04:25.720 state in state game officials for state of Wyoming and 1:04:25.760 --> 1:04:30.920 Idaho who are saying these populations is created Yelstone populations 1:04:30.960 --> 1:04:34.120 is at a point where we if if done correctly 1:04:34.760 --> 1:04:38.600 UM and if done in science and has told us 1:04:38.640 --> 1:04:41.720 that two is the number based on the current population 1:04:42.440 --> 1:04:47.560 what we feel UM would be appropriate, and then we 1:04:47.720 --> 1:04:50.400 can take out a certain number of bears through this 1:04:50.440 --> 1:04:53.920 tag draw system and it would allow us to and 1:04:53.960 --> 1:04:56.680 really I think it goes. What you'll see a lot 1:04:56.720 --> 1:05:03.480 from those folks is um well, like private landowners, ranchers, um, 1:05:04.240 --> 1:05:07.800 folks that live in those areas complaining about interaction with 1:05:07.840 --> 1:05:10.560 the grizzly bears right is one of their big ones. 1:05:10.760 --> 1:05:13.760 And so in the animal rights activistic set up that 1:05:13.840 --> 1:05:17.160 side like what's that? What are those folks thinking? You know, 1:05:17.160 --> 1:05:23.080 because there's we can go through. Um well, there's a lot. 1:05:23.320 --> 1:05:25.440 I'm just trying to think through mind how you approach, 1:05:25.520 --> 1:05:27.880 but give give the other side of the coin. Yeah, 1:05:27.920 --> 1:05:30.600 So the other side of the coin is eco tourism, 1:05:30.640 --> 1:05:32.840 you know, and a lot of people we can't deny 1:05:33.000 --> 1:05:36.840 go to Yellowstone and Grand Tetons or go horse packing 1:05:36.840 --> 1:05:39.400 the Bob Marshall and seeing a bear at a safe 1:05:39.480 --> 1:05:42.520 distance is something that they're after for a photograph or 1:05:42.520 --> 1:05:47.640 an experience or whatever and their trophy. Um. So there 1:05:47.800 --> 1:05:51.840 is this conflict of interests where you have a very real, 1:05:52.000 --> 1:05:55.920 thriving eco tourism industry that none of these states can 1:05:55.920 --> 1:05:58.320 deny is a huge part of their economy. You also 1:05:58.360 --> 1:06:02.640 have people who live kind of in the wild urban 1:06:02.760 --> 1:06:06.560 or not wild urban, but wild kind of rural interface 1:06:06.680 --> 1:06:08.760 where you have grizzly bears in the backyard. A lot 1:06:08.800 --> 1:06:12.000 of people are trying to make a living raising livestock 1:06:12.120 --> 1:06:17.280 or crops or just living there. Um. Then you also 1:06:17.320 --> 1:06:21.760 have hunters who would like to participate in this very 1:06:21.840 --> 1:06:26.600 limited you know, this resource that would be very limited, 1:06:26.640 --> 1:06:29.280 you know, twenty three animals in this case. Um. And 1:06:29.280 --> 1:06:31.360 then there's probably a certain group of people who feel 1:06:31.400 --> 1:06:33.440 like this is a threat to their ability to hunt 1:06:33.680 --> 1:06:35.880 or a threat to their the way they identify with 1:06:35.960 --> 1:06:38.960 hunting as a as an opportunity that we are privileged 1:06:39.000 --> 1:06:42.360 to have here. And I think it's it's um, we 1:06:42.360 --> 1:06:44.960 can take both sides. But and I'd like to I 1:06:45.000 --> 1:06:47.600 think if you take the hunting side first, right, And 1:06:47.720 --> 1:06:52.400 we talked about the our model of conservation um successful 1:06:52.480 --> 1:06:55.840 e s a listing to me. And I think that 1:06:56.120 --> 1:06:59.440 everyone that you know is aware of the model. Conservation 1:06:59.520 --> 1:07:02.800 starts with dwinding the population, and like you said, the 1:07:02.840 --> 1:07:07.760 availability of critical habitat is also dwindling, right, and these 1:07:07.800 --> 1:07:12.240 distinct populations, assessing that, determining that which was done with 1:07:12.240 --> 1:07:16.280 with with these bears and then saying, okay, what do 1:07:16.320 --> 1:07:18.560 we gotta do to get them back to you know, 1:07:19.040 --> 1:07:21.680 there's all us always in these cases markers like when 1:07:21.680 --> 1:07:23.760 are when are they healthy again? What number of these 1:07:23.800 --> 1:07:27.520 animals allows this to be? Allows us to pull them 1:07:27.520 --> 1:07:30.240 off this list, say this is a healthy population center. 1:07:30.280 --> 1:07:34.040 Now we've done it right, we did it party, we 1:07:34.080 --> 1:07:37.920 did it Now the value and success of our model 1:07:37.920 --> 1:07:44.600 of conservation then says it's a successful es A listing two. 1:07:45.280 --> 1:07:49.160 Then hunt these animals again because that allows us to 1:07:50.160 --> 1:07:53.040 dictate our interaction with them in in in a way 1:07:53.080 --> 1:07:58.640 that's uh scientific works off sound wildlife management practices and 1:07:58.640 --> 1:08:02.200 works off wildlife biology. And so I think that's what 1:08:02.600 --> 1:08:06.680 hunters I think gets lost. And I'm not argue. I'm 1:08:06.680 --> 1:08:08.040 not I want to argue. I want to talk about 1:08:08.040 --> 1:08:14.040 both sides and then continue forward. But I think what's 1:08:14.080 --> 1:08:17.120 disappointing to me is that it gets lost. Like the 1:08:17.160 --> 1:08:20.439 motivation of why someone would shoot a grizzly bear, which 1:08:20.479 --> 1:08:25.320 is is something I'll probably never do. In fact, unless 1:08:25.360 --> 1:08:28.400 I change, I won't do I don't have any I'm 1:08:28.439 --> 1:08:32.800 a hunter. I just don't have any need to do it. 1:08:32.840 --> 1:08:34.320 I don't have any want to do it. It's not 1:08:34.360 --> 1:08:38.479 something I would participate in. UM and says like I, 1:08:38.640 --> 1:08:41.639 as a hunter would challenge the why of those twenty 1:08:41.640 --> 1:08:44.840 two people that draw those tags or the hundreds of 1:08:45.120 --> 1:08:48.479 thousands of people that applied. I would challenge their while 1:08:48.640 --> 1:08:53.759 and legitimately challenge their why. Um. But at the same time, 1:08:55.040 --> 1:08:59.559 here we are with this model that says, if we 1:08:59.640 --> 1:09:04.280 do this, it's worked for other species, distinct population centers 1:09:04.360 --> 1:09:10.440 or not. We can't then, So there's like this ideological 1:09:10.760 --> 1:09:14.679 or philosophical this works, Let's do it. It's hunting, right, 1:09:15.880 --> 1:09:21.960 and the person the more personal explanation of why would 1:09:22.000 --> 1:09:27.200 you then be the person to pull the trigger killed there? Um. 1:09:27.240 --> 1:09:28.760 So that's where I think the work lines up for 1:09:28.800 --> 1:09:31.759 me where it gets difficult on the hunting side, because 1:09:31.800 --> 1:09:36.120 there's there's easy inroads to start shipping away at the 1:09:36.160 --> 1:09:39.640 why that the personal why. It was easy inroads. Oh, 1:09:39.760 --> 1:09:41.920 you just want to kill it. It's a big bear, 1:09:42.240 --> 1:09:47.360 it's charismatic, it's seen as it's a unique in its landscape. 1:09:47.920 --> 1:09:50.920 People love to come and watch watch it, people love 1:09:51.000 --> 1:09:57.000 to interact with it, and and hunters do as well. Um. 1:09:57.040 --> 1:09:59.000 And so I think there's a lot of reasons that 1:09:59.000 --> 1:10:03.559 goes into those personal wise that I think whether I 1:10:03.560 --> 1:10:05.360 don't I don't even like the term anti hunters but 1:10:05.439 --> 1:10:07.400 like animal rights groups, as I guess probably the right 1:10:07.600 --> 1:10:15.080 right terms, you get into really examining those individuals why 1:10:15.200 --> 1:10:18.800 and using that those personal wise as a reason to 1:10:18.960 --> 1:10:23.160 stop the critical use of hunting is a tool to 1:10:23.400 --> 1:10:27.559 make this process be complete. So you agree with that 1:10:27.640 --> 1:10:31.439 kind of characterization of the personal why and the the 1:10:31.560 --> 1:10:34.280 conservation why. Yeah, And I think the one thing I'd 1:10:34.280 --> 1:10:39.560 add is that both non hunters, anti hunters, animal rights 1:10:39.600 --> 1:10:44.240 and hunters, I think we all agree that the Endangered 1:10:44.280 --> 1:10:47.439 Species Act exists to bring animals back from the brink 1:10:47.439 --> 1:10:50.439 of extinction to the point at which the populations are stable, 1:10:51.680 --> 1:10:55.040 and law says once populations are stable, states have the 1:10:55.360 --> 1:11:00.240 right and the legal obligation to manage those wildlife. And yeah, 1:11:00.280 --> 1:11:04.120 historically hunting has been one of the you know, better 1:11:04.120 --> 1:11:08.479 ways for them to raise money too, to conserve habitat, 1:11:08.560 --> 1:11:11.439 to do other things to raise value of these animals. 1:11:11.439 --> 1:11:14.519 And then also um the actual act of taking some 1:11:14.600 --> 1:11:17.439 animals away from the population to stable. Right. And for 1:11:17.439 --> 1:11:19.800 everybody listening, I know a lot of people listening to hunts, 1:11:19.840 --> 1:11:23.400 but for those who don't hunt, there are wildlife biologists 1:11:23.400 --> 1:11:26.439 and agencies doing their best job of saying okay, well, 1:11:26.439 --> 1:11:29.000 if you have bears across this known area, we should 1:11:29.040 --> 1:11:30.760 hunt this many and this part of the area, and 1:11:30.800 --> 1:11:32.080 this many and this part of the area. It's not 1:11:32.120 --> 1:11:34.360 this free for all. There are quite a few checks 1:11:34.360 --> 1:11:36.639 and balances. And that's why, Yeah, that's why I thought 1:11:36.680 --> 1:11:39.080 it was interesting, you know, to read those tenets of 1:11:39.120 --> 1:11:41.880 our model of conservation before we get into this, because 1:11:42.080 --> 1:11:44.760 you know, it's like, well, okay, how we're elk successful, 1:11:45.160 --> 1:11:48.080 How we're you know, how were the how is the 1:11:48.120 --> 1:11:50.839 Mallard duck successful? Like there's a system. There's our American 1:11:50.880 --> 1:11:53.720 system of conservation funding and then and then there's North 1:11:53.760 --> 1:11:56.800 American model wildlife conservation. Those two things interact in such 1:11:56.800 --> 1:12:01.680 a way that those animals were given value and those populations, 1:12:01.760 --> 1:12:06.519 distinct population centers in in their species entireties were allowed 1:12:06.560 --> 1:12:09.519 to then be forward and they've done well right. And 1:12:10.520 --> 1:12:13.439 I don't I don't think anybody. I think it's one 1:12:13.439 --> 1:12:15.280 of the things that pisces me off in this situation 1:12:15.360 --> 1:12:20.960 is anybody that characterizes hunters is uncaring assholes. There may 1:12:20.960 --> 1:12:23.720 be a few, but the greater population, hopefully, if you 1:12:23.720 --> 1:12:26.240 found in your time hunting is not like that. That's 1:12:26.280 --> 1:12:29.439 not what's happening. Well, I think that's a function of media. Yeah, right, 1:12:29.479 --> 1:12:33.360 Like we can all think about the person on the 1:12:33.400 --> 1:12:35.559 far left who is popped up on our feet or 1:12:35.560 --> 1:12:37.960 on the headline like they're insane, and we can also 1:12:37.960 --> 1:12:40.479 probably think of somebody in our own hunting space that 1:12:40.520 --> 1:12:42.600 has done things you're like, that's crazy, that was a 1:12:42.640 --> 1:12:45.800 stupid thing to do. But unfortunately the people on the 1:12:45.800 --> 1:12:48.679 other side of the aisle only see those assholes. And yeah, 1:12:48.720 --> 1:12:53.000 I mean it's just limit from this point forward in 1:12:53.040 --> 1:12:55.040 the conversation, will just eliminate the assholes. It makes it 1:12:55.040 --> 1:12:58.680 way easier. Because there's an assholes hunters. Asshole hunters they 1:12:58.720 --> 1:13:01.120 just want to shoot a bear for so they can 1:13:01.120 --> 1:13:03.000 hang it on their wall and do and say that 1:13:03.040 --> 1:13:05.080 they did it right. And to me, that's not a 1:13:05.080 --> 1:13:08.320 good enough reason. And there's asshole animal rights activists who 1:13:08.400 --> 1:13:11.360 just blankly want to save every animal they see and 1:13:11.400 --> 1:13:16.280 don't think twice and are easily inflamed by the by 1:13:16.360 --> 1:13:18.960 any harm to any animal, like, let's release all of 1:13:18.960 --> 1:13:21.559 the wild horses back on the range along, let's do 1:13:21.640 --> 1:13:27.719 even though they're fair on have brands they're destroying. Yeah no, 1:13:27.760 --> 1:13:29.920 but I think, but I think that all. You know, 1:13:29.960 --> 1:13:33.640 if if in this situation, you would eliminate the assholes 1:13:33.880 --> 1:13:36.160 and the outliers, and the outliers be like, listen, there 1:13:36.200 --> 1:13:39.120 are some animal rights activists that are so extreme that 1:13:39.200 --> 1:13:42.800 they almost eliminate themselves from this conversation. Uh, and they're 1:13:42.800 --> 1:13:46.920 so hunters. There's some hunters they are so extreme that 1:13:46.960 --> 1:13:50.960 we would eliminate them from this conversation. I wish we 1:13:51.000 --> 1:13:55.320 could do that with this federal court case. It's ruling. 1:13:55.800 --> 1:13:58.639 I don't I'd be interested to think to see your 1:13:58.800 --> 1:14:02.839 opinion and whether it was or not right, whether when 1:14:02.920 --> 1:14:06.519 we made this decision or when this ruling was made, 1:14:08.439 --> 1:14:11.760 whether we eliminated all of those folks. Yeah, you know. 1:14:11.880 --> 1:14:16.200 And my interpretation of it, you know, high level, is 1:14:16.240 --> 1:14:20.519 that I think the judge delaying his decision. He said, 1:14:20.560 --> 1:14:22.760 I'm not going to make a decision in court today. 1:14:22.840 --> 1:14:24.599 I'm going to hear both sides and gonna go home 1:14:24.680 --> 1:14:26.759 two weeks, fourteen days. Yeah, I'm gonna do my homework. 1:14:27.400 --> 1:14:29.400 I think he understand, and he says it outright in 1:14:29.439 --> 1:14:32.880 the first few pages. He says, I realized the emotional 1:14:33.479 --> 1:14:38.320 baggage and social commitment people have to both sides of 1:14:38.320 --> 1:14:39.880 the eye all of this topic. Let me stop you 1:14:39.920 --> 1:14:42.519 when we start talking about this judge, this judge, right right, 1:14:43.320 --> 1:14:47.160 Let's just go forward thinking that this judge is acting 1:14:47.320 --> 1:14:50.040 in good faith. Yes, is anybody that listened to this 1:14:50.040 --> 1:14:53.360 conversation and writes in or comments and says that the 1:14:53.479 --> 1:14:57.040 judge was a liberal a whole You're gone. I'm deleting you. 1:14:58.040 --> 1:15:00.519 Get out of my life. I want to live in 1:15:00.520 --> 1:15:03.240 a world where I believe that all judges are acting 1:15:04.439 --> 1:15:06.960 in good faith of the law and doing their jobs. 1:15:07.120 --> 1:15:10.520 So let's just we're not even gonna have that conversation. 1:15:11.080 --> 1:15:15.120 So I was like, children, No, we're just gonna do this, 1:15:15.200 --> 1:15:17.000 and we're gonna we're gonna act like this person even 1:15:17.040 --> 1:15:19.160 if that wasn't the case. I don't know this judge, 1:15:19.240 --> 1:15:21.599 never met him, and you can look at his decisions 1:15:21.600 --> 1:15:24.639 and make your own decision. But for this conversation, we're 1:15:24.640 --> 1:15:28.280 gonna act like he did the best job he could. 1:15:28.560 --> 1:15:31.360 And then we're also going to eliminate the outliers. Now, 1:15:31.439 --> 1:15:35.320 let's go because I think we're living now, let's have 1:15:35.320 --> 1:15:39.439 this conversation. Um, so he and he, so, he points 1:15:39.439 --> 1:15:44.040 out this is a complex issue. He brings up things 1:15:44.080 --> 1:15:46.599 that led to a decision that had nothing to do 1:15:46.760 --> 1:15:50.080 with the people who might go to the park I 1:15:50.080 --> 1:15:52.240 want to take a photo of one or the people 1:15:52.280 --> 1:15:53.960 who just want to shoot on the put on their wall. 1:15:54.320 --> 1:15:59.600 He made a decision based on the legal confines that 1:15:59.760 --> 1:16:02.840 he works within as a federal judge, and one of 1:16:02.840 --> 1:16:07.920 the main things that he brings up was the fact 1:16:07.960 --> 1:16:12.040 that if you, if we're we, as the Greater Public 1:16:12.080 --> 1:16:14.639 of America and the Danger Species Act, as the most 1:16:14.680 --> 1:16:18.960 important piece of wildlife legislation, are in the business of 1:16:19.040 --> 1:16:22.719 returning species from the brink of extinction to a place 1:16:22.720 --> 1:16:25.320 of stability where they can be managed by states and hunted. 1:16:25.320 --> 1:16:27.720 If the states determined that's what they should be, that's 1:16:27.720 --> 1:16:30.120 the way they should be managed. Which in Montana you 1:16:30.120 --> 1:16:32.720 can pretty much shoot everything you want, except you need 1:16:32.720 --> 1:16:36.840 a tag for a few big corn swans whatever, but 1:16:37.080 --> 1:16:41.479 generally you can hunt most things. So what he says 1:16:41.880 --> 1:16:46.440 is that the determination to dealist the Greater Yellston population 1:16:47.320 --> 1:16:51.840 was illegal because the species is listed. There's not a 1:16:51.880 --> 1:16:55.720 distinct population segment like in the wolf situation that can 1:16:55.760 --> 1:16:58.800 be delisted. Furthermore, what he's saying is that if you 1:16:58.880 --> 1:17:02.760 delist the Greater yell a stone population, a population that 1:17:02.800 --> 1:17:08.200 has no proven emigration or connection to the Continental Divide 1:17:08.240 --> 1:17:12.600 population in Glacier, or to the North Cascades or the Selkirks, 1:17:12.680 --> 1:17:17.400 or some of these populations in Idaho. You will jeopardize 1:17:17.400 --> 1:17:21.240 the future of those other populations that would benefit from 1:17:21.320 --> 1:17:26.040 genetics from their yellow Stun population connectivity. You would you 1:17:26.040 --> 1:17:29.559 would jeopardize their future. So he's he's not saying that 1:17:30.080 --> 1:17:33.880 the Wyoming, Idaho Montana inter Agency didn't do a good 1:17:33.960 --> 1:17:37.600 job and that this population is not doing well. He 1:17:37.800 --> 1:17:42.439 is saying that by delisting this population, which one is illegal, 1:17:42.640 --> 1:17:46.040 but two, if you could, would jeopardize those other populations 1:17:46.040 --> 1:17:49.799 from rebounding populations where you have four, twelve, twenty individuals 1:17:49.880 --> 1:17:52.680 or zero. And there there are just there are ecosystems 1:17:52.680 --> 1:17:55.639 identified as grizzly bear habitat that haven't had a grizzly 1:17:55.680 --> 1:17:59.479 bearing him in a hundred years. So let's unpack that 1:17:59.560 --> 1:18:04.040 a bit, because there's some things there. Um. The legality 1:18:04.080 --> 1:18:07.080 of it comes to your earlier point around the entire 1:18:07.120 --> 1:18:12.280 species being listed. Um, So hopefully everybody understands that we're 1:18:12.280 --> 1:18:17.799 talking about there. It seems unfortunate that they're these distinct 1:18:17.800 --> 1:18:21.200 populations weren't listed, you know, separately and able to be 1:18:21.240 --> 1:18:29.160 manned separately. Do you think that the E. S A 1:18:29.280 --> 1:18:33.200 in this case, I would say I could get on 1:18:33.240 --> 1:18:35.639 this train. The E s A in this case didn't 1:18:35.680 --> 1:18:40.479 do its job very well. I think it's hard. Foresight's hard, right, 1:18:41.080 --> 1:18:43.439 and saying saying like hey, seventy three, we can go 1:18:43.520 --> 1:18:45.439 back seventy three and be like, hey, guess what do 1:18:46.080 --> 1:18:49.160 Yeah two doesn't the pine beetles, Hey guess what, pine beetles. 1:18:49.960 --> 1:18:51.720 They're gonna they're gonna have a big issue. We're gonna 1:18:51.760 --> 1:18:54.760 have pine up problems. We can't we can't go back 1:18:54.760 --> 1:19:00.120 and change that. But but I think where what to 1:19:00.120 --> 1:19:04.479 me wrapped up is our model of conservation and what 1:19:04.520 --> 1:19:08.000 we say in the model of conservation around wildlife UM 1:19:08.960 --> 1:19:15.799 states managing that wildlife and trust and that scientific science 1:19:15.880 --> 1:19:19.320 and biology specifically science being the tool on which to 1:19:19.400 --> 1:19:22.880 manage those populations on a state level. I feel like 1:19:22.920 --> 1:19:24.479 that's a sound way to do it, and it's been 1:19:24.479 --> 1:19:27.479 proven as a sound way to do it. UM. The E. 1:19:27.680 --> 1:19:31.920 S A in this situation is because the entire population 1:19:32.000 --> 1:19:36.280 is listed, goes against that idea. Those two things are 1:19:36.280 --> 1:19:38.840 now at odds you have the e s A that's 1:19:38.840 --> 1:19:42.920 saying the entire population goes as listed, so you can't 1:19:42.920 --> 1:19:45.439 do the thing or the entire species. Yeah, the entire 1:19:45.439 --> 1:19:48.920 species sorry uh is listed, so you can't do the 1:19:48.960 --> 1:19:53.679 thing you did for these other populations. Is that accurate 1:19:53.680 --> 1:19:56.160 in your mind? Like those two things are up against 1:19:56.160 --> 1:19:59.599 each other. I think from a from a conceptual level, 1:19:59.680 --> 1:20:06.560 I the the maybe the disconnect or the the inefficiencies. 1:20:07.320 --> 1:20:11.240 But from a from a from a biology level, the 1:20:11.320 --> 1:20:14.680 gray wolf and the bald eagle are inherently different than 1:20:14.720 --> 1:20:17.920 a grizzly bear. Grizzly bear that's reproducing that at age 1:20:17.960 --> 1:20:22.040 six uh, an adult female might not replace herself in 1:20:22.080 --> 1:20:25.120 the population until not maybe nine years have passed. So 1:20:25.120 --> 1:20:28.519 we're talking at an animal that is inherently different than 1:20:28.560 --> 1:20:31.519 many animals we've ever protected in the past. So these 1:20:31.560 --> 1:20:35.679 are they're slow reproducing, dispersal, they don't have wings. They're 1:20:35.720 --> 1:20:40.160 not an elk that's migrating perhaps hundreds of miles, and 1:20:40.200 --> 1:20:42.720 they're not a wolf that's having litters of three, four 1:20:42.800 --> 1:20:45.680 or five uh, you know offspring where maybe three or 1:20:46.160 --> 1:20:49.200 three survive. You know, these are bears or maybe having 1:20:49.600 --> 1:20:53.240 twins and and maybe one survives and they're not reproducing 1:20:53.320 --> 1:20:56.120 until there maybe age six. So I think inherently you 1:20:56.160 --> 1:21:00.160 have some just different biology. Also, I think that's a 1:21:00.280 --> 1:21:04.360 that's a great point to make, um, and we have 1:21:04.479 --> 1:21:10.680 to be we have to really say, look, I love 1:21:10.760 --> 1:21:14.559 this model, right, I love it. It's working well, but 1:21:15.000 --> 1:21:17.920 your science and what you do says that you can't 1:21:18.640 --> 1:21:21.519 that umbrella works until it doesn't. Yeah, and it's not. 1:21:21.640 --> 1:21:24.040 Everything is not a square peg in a square hole. 1:21:24.320 --> 1:21:26.080 I think that's the problem. I've seen the hunting community 1:21:26.120 --> 1:21:29.160 around this is like and I and and I've been 1:21:29.160 --> 1:21:31.880 guilty of it too. But I and when my reading 1:21:31.920 --> 1:21:35.880 about this prior to this conversation and throughout this process, like, Okay, 1:21:37.520 --> 1:21:41.360 this is these are different species there are they're in 1:21:41.439 --> 1:21:44.720 different situations. We can't the s A can't do it, 1:21:44.760 --> 1:21:47.280 and in our model, wild life conservation and state biologist 1:21:47.280 --> 1:21:51.080 can't do it. Right. Um, we'll get into later once 1:21:51.080 --> 1:21:53.040 we get through this conceptual, we'll get into the actual. 1:21:53.439 --> 1:21:55.760 But let's continue. Well, and it's hard, right because like 1:21:55.800 --> 1:21:59.320 it's interpretation. So it's we have these things that are 1:21:59.520 --> 1:22:02.240 pretty find or that are you know, you can put 1:22:02.280 --> 1:22:04.360 them in a box like the ESA is a thing. 1:22:04.439 --> 1:22:08.680 With these tenants, the model of wildlife management and with 1:22:08.760 --> 1:22:11.400 the North American model has tenants. There are there are, 1:22:11.840 --> 1:22:15.519 you know, aspects that we can't deny exist when we're 1:22:15.520 --> 1:22:18.559 talking about the management of an animal over space and 1:22:18.640 --> 1:22:22.719 time space. That's different yellowstones different than glacier glaciers, different 1:22:22.760 --> 1:22:25.559 the selkirks. There are different realities on the ground, there 1:22:25.560 --> 1:22:29.920 are different ecosystem aspects. We require it, you know, we 1:22:29.960 --> 1:22:32.599 have to lean on interpretation. Somebody's saying like, okay, well, 1:22:32.640 --> 1:22:34.680 grizzly bears are little different than wolves. Grizzly bears are 1:22:34.680 --> 1:22:39.400 different than elk or or bald eagles. So what we 1:22:39.439 --> 1:22:43.160 get down to is this reality that yes, the law 1:22:43.360 --> 1:22:47.000 treats animals differently, like with the wolves and the grizzly 1:22:47.080 --> 1:22:52.640 bear functionally different. My interpretation of this genetic issue, this 1:22:52.800 --> 1:22:56.559 lack of connectivity, is that if our goal, if you're 1:22:56.560 --> 1:22:59.320 a hunter and your goals to hunt grizzly bear one day, 1:22:59.640 --> 1:23:02.680 give it some time, because if things keep going the 1:23:02.680 --> 1:23:05.880 way they're going, and this population continues to grow, and 1:23:06.000 --> 1:23:10.400 federal resources are put into connectivity and creating corridors and 1:23:10.960 --> 1:23:16.559 creating more stable populations outside of the greater Yellowstone. Then 1:23:16.720 --> 1:23:19.479 in the not too distant future, we will have more distinct, 1:23:19.520 --> 1:23:23.200 healthy populations that might merit dealisteine. And at that point, 1:23:23.479 --> 1:23:25.880 what a success like We've brought these animals back from 1:23:25.960 --> 1:23:29.880 nothing to six distinct ecosystems where there's populations that have 1:23:29.960 --> 1:23:32.920 genect diversity or thriving, and that's awesome. And I think 1:23:32.920 --> 1:23:35.439 we're getting to that point. And for the people who 1:23:35.439 --> 1:23:38.360 are anti grizzly bear hunting, they should realize that we 1:23:38.439 --> 1:23:43.000 have this amazing legal precedent that says, once species are 1:23:43.040 --> 1:23:45.920 back to a place of stability, it's up to the 1:23:45.920 --> 1:23:47.680 people who live with those animals to decide how they 1:23:47.720 --> 1:23:49.479 want to be managed. Yeah, because I think there's that 1:23:49.560 --> 1:23:52.559 the actual part I talk about that I think about it. 1:23:52.800 --> 1:23:54.880 I would say for the migration and the seating thing, 1:23:55.080 --> 1:23:57.960 I would would admit to not having a lot of 1:23:58.080 --> 1:24:02.439 around grizzly bears knowledge of how that exactly works. But 1:24:02.520 --> 1:24:06.280 when I see a species like a meal deer migrate 1:24:07.000 --> 1:24:10.479 across the West in a lot of cases, I wonder 1:24:10.520 --> 1:24:13.240 how you compare those things, right? Because was we hunt 1:24:13.720 --> 1:24:17.680 because there's state? Um, we're because we're not regulating mule 1:24:17.760 --> 1:24:20.240 deer across their migration. We're not saying like, hey, follow 1:24:20.280 --> 1:24:24.120 these guys. You know, Wyoming has their system for how 1:24:24.120 --> 1:24:25.960 you hum mule deer, how many tags you can draw, 1:24:25.960 --> 1:24:28.160 where you can draw them, the units that are you 1:24:28.160 --> 1:24:32.719 can hunt them. So does Idaho. So does other states 1:24:32.720 --> 1:24:36.880 where these these animals migrate across, and there's migration corridors 1:24:36.920 --> 1:24:42.120 are critical habitat to protect for these species. So here's 1:24:42.120 --> 1:24:45.040 an example of a healthy population. I mean, mule dey 1:24:45.120 --> 1:24:46.720 or healthy I don't know. Let's let's not go that 1:24:46.800 --> 1:24:54.000 far of I mean, would you consider me like those 1:24:54.120 --> 1:24:57.560 migratory mule deer to be seed to be seeding populations 1:24:57.560 --> 1:25:00.479 in other places? Absolutely? I think know a lot of 1:25:00.520 --> 1:25:04.479 those migrations are summer to winter as opposed to mule 1:25:04.520 --> 1:25:08.600 deer moving into novel habitat like I'm gonna blaze a 1:25:08.600 --> 1:25:11.439 new trail and I'm gonna like set up shots over here. Yeah, totally, 1:25:11.560 --> 1:25:14.320 and and there that is happening as white tails. A 1:25:14.320 --> 1:25:17.160 great example. You have white tailed like I'm gonna head 1:25:17.200 --> 1:25:19.160 that way and like, oh ship, I'm the first white 1:25:19.160 --> 1:25:20.800 tail in this meal there country. And now there's white 1:25:20.800 --> 1:25:24.799 tail coyotes did that in in droves to sting totally. 1:25:25.600 --> 1:25:27.559 I think with grizzly bears it's a little different because 1:25:28.120 --> 1:25:31.000 you don't have three hundred grizzly bears in a line 1:25:31.080 --> 1:25:33.360 hopping through the stage. You might have one or two. 1:25:33.760 --> 1:25:36.120 And along the way, those grizzly bears might be young 1:25:36.200 --> 1:25:39.479 males who have no manners, and they're like, well, ship, 1:25:39.680 --> 1:25:41.920 there's a cow, there's a chicken, there's a sheep. I'm 1:25:41.960 --> 1:25:43.519 gonna go rip its head off because I'm a bear 1:25:43.800 --> 1:25:46.120 and I'm i'm and I'm a teenager and I don't 1:25:46.120 --> 1:25:48.519 know what the hell I'm doing. And then that causes 1:25:48.560 --> 1:25:51.320 conflict and that bear gets shot. And the fact of 1:25:51.320 --> 1:25:53.800 the matter is there were twenty three bears slated to 1:25:53.800 --> 1:25:57.439 be hunted. There are more than twenty three bears this 1:25:57.520 --> 1:26:00.280 year that have been killed by other vehicle strikes or 1:26:00.439 --> 1:26:03.040 wildlife professionals coming in and killing of problem. That was Yeah, 1:26:03.040 --> 1:26:05.120 that was my actual. That's what I was talking about. Actual. 1:26:05.439 --> 1:26:08.080 So we need the conceptual is is? I think it's 1:26:08.080 --> 1:26:11.360 a it's an interesting argument, and conceptually I can see 1:26:11.479 --> 1:26:16.040 what you're saying. I can see, um, there being a 1:26:16.160 --> 1:26:19.040 larger threshold for the health of this population, right, I 1:26:19.040 --> 1:26:21.479 could see not being so shortsighted as to think that 1:26:22.040 --> 1:26:26.880 conceptually this we've done it. We did it, We got that, um, 1:26:26.920 --> 1:26:29.160 and has somebody who never really wants the hunt grizzy 1:26:29.160 --> 1:26:34.519 bear whatever, you know, but respects like our model and 1:26:34.560 --> 1:26:36.800 how it works. And some people do, and that's there, 1:26:37.080 --> 1:26:38.720 and that some people do. People I want to hunt 1:26:38.720 --> 1:26:44.560 grizzle bears, go for it, um. But the actual is 1:26:44.560 --> 1:26:48.160 is it more interesting to me because you're talking about 1:26:48.320 --> 1:26:50.840 twenty two dead your twenty three dead grizzly bears or 1:26:50.960 --> 1:26:54.519 twenty three dead grizzly bears, yeah, or like fifty dead 1:26:54.520 --> 1:26:57.760 grizzly bears. They are already dead this year, So it's 1:26:57.840 --> 1:27:02.280 dead grizzly bears or dead grizzly bears. So the other 1:27:02.320 --> 1:27:05.519 thing around this that that confounds me a bit is 1:27:05.840 --> 1:27:08.959 around the human interaction with grizzly bears and is hunting. 1:27:11.439 --> 1:27:15.160 Would hunting decrease the number of those interactions you're talking 1:27:15.160 --> 1:27:18.360 about where wildlife officials are shooting them or they get 1:27:18.439 --> 1:27:22.400 hit by cars? Do we know that? Can we say that? 1:27:22.560 --> 1:27:25.400 I mean, the bears that have bad behavior are probably 1:27:25.400 --> 1:27:29.280 already dead, you know, and the bears that are dumb 1:27:29.880 --> 1:27:32.840 are probably already dead. And well, I mean, there are 1:27:32.880 --> 1:27:35.639 certainly not to say that, like you should go strap 1:27:35.680 --> 1:27:37.240 a you know, a highd quarter of an elk over 1:27:37.280 --> 1:27:39.600 you know, behind your your on your bag and go 1:27:39.720 --> 1:27:42.040 run around the Bob Marshall because you might bump into 1:27:42.080 --> 1:27:43.760 a bear and that could be scary and dangerous, and 1:27:43.800 --> 1:27:47.360 that happens to people. But there are already a lot 1:27:47.400 --> 1:27:49.639 of checks and balances in place that are removing problem 1:27:49.720 --> 1:27:52.799 bears from the ecosystem. And as more and more bears 1:27:52.800 --> 1:27:56.320 get pumped out of Yellowstone and the Continental Divide, population, 1:27:56.800 --> 1:27:58.760 vehicle strikes around the rise, so or the number of 1:27:58.840 --> 1:28:01.640 people driving cars around these wild basically to hit a 1:28:01.680 --> 1:28:04.000 bear with your car totally. Somebody hit one, like right 1:28:04.040 --> 1:28:07.479 in Big Sky Canyon last year, you know. So it's happening, 1:28:07.560 --> 1:28:10.000 you know. And and and I think the argument to say, 1:28:10.080 --> 1:28:12.400 like us hunting twenty three bears and like the woods safer, 1:28:12.520 --> 1:28:14.880 or it's gonna keep the bears from eating the sheep 1:28:14.920 --> 1:28:18.040 in my yard, it's like no, no, no, more bears 1:28:18.040 --> 1:28:21.000 than you're gonna hunt this year are being killed. So 1:28:21.080 --> 1:28:24.280 that's that's where I come to again. It's like more 1:28:24.280 --> 1:28:26.880 of the wildlife officials that are shooting problem bears, right, 1:28:29.880 --> 1:28:32.400 probably because I just like it's I have his exhale 1:28:32.439 --> 1:28:35.240 because it gives me anxiety to think about these things 1:28:35.240 --> 1:28:39.000 because they're super complicated. But right, it's not like you 1:28:39.080 --> 1:28:44.040 call in a hunter to shoot the problem bear totally. 1:28:44.479 --> 1:28:47.439 So I think let's anybody who says, like, hey, if 1:28:47.479 --> 1:28:52.040 we go hunt, it will limit the interactions with problem bears. 1:28:53.760 --> 1:28:57.720 That's not all the way true. One thing I don't know, 1:28:57.800 --> 1:29:01.160 maybe you do, is how they you know, of the 1:29:01.200 --> 1:29:04.080 twenty two bears, how they choose exactly where in these 1:29:04.080 --> 1:29:07.000 populations you're gonna take a bear out, And I think 1:29:07.040 --> 1:29:09.479 there's ways that you can marry those things up together. 1:29:10.000 --> 1:29:12.720 So the reason around, like the actual reasoning saying if 1:29:12.720 --> 1:29:14.920 we hunt these twenty three bears, the population will decrease 1:29:14.960 --> 1:29:17.920 by twenty two and there'll be less problems with interactions 1:29:18.040 --> 1:29:22.400 with humans. Yeah I'm not I'm not, I'm not there, 1:29:22.560 --> 1:29:24.680 But where I am is we have to pay a 1:29:24.720 --> 1:29:28.439 wildlife manager to shoot a problem bear. Hunters are paying 1:29:29.080 --> 1:29:33.880 to go and so to eliminate that money is um 1:29:34.040 --> 1:29:36.120 something I just don't agree with. I mean, I think 1:29:36.320 --> 1:29:39.280 if if we're saying that we have problems with interaction 1:29:39.320 --> 1:29:41.080 with humans. We have problems with car strikes, we have 1:29:41.160 --> 1:29:44.400 problems with bears ripping the heads off cattle. All this 1:29:44.439 --> 1:29:47.679 ship costs money. And if we can shoot twenty two 1:29:47.680 --> 1:29:50.880 of them, and science and biology say it's not going 1:29:50.920 --> 1:29:53.720 to limit this population so so much that they can't 1:29:53.720 --> 1:29:57.000 see to other populations, why wouldn't we do that? Take 1:29:57.080 --> 1:29:59.559 the money and still and then use that money to 1:29:59.600 --> 1:30:03.240 address us car strikes and bad bears and pay for 1:30:03.360 --> 1:30:07.000 better ways for ranchers to interact and and teach them 1:30:07.080 --> 1:30:10.200 how to do it. Like that's where the line ends 1:30:10.240 --> 1:30:13.320 for me, But there's prior to getting there. It's it's 1:30:13.080 --> 1:30:15.280 a really a whole lot of like I can see it, 1:30:15.400 --> 1:30:18.519 but I also I mean it's complicated. There's no perfect solution, 1:30:18.600 --> 1:30:20.080 right because, like it was up to me and I 1:30:20.120 --> 1:30:22.280 could rewrite the law, I would say, keep him, keep 1:30:22.360 --> 1:30:25.160 him endangered. Get the hunters who want to spend whatever 1:30:25.200 --> 1:30:26.960 thousands of dollars for a tag and go shoot the 1:30:26.960 --> 1:30:29.640 problem bearing that guy's ranch that's killed a sheep. You know, 1:30:29.760 --> 1:30:32.120 maybe we just did it. Why is this judge not 1:30:32.160 --> 1:30:34.320 doing this? But like that that's to me, Yeah, Like 1:30:34.439 --> 1:30:38.840 I hate to be I hate to be so presumptive 1:30:38.920 --> 1:30:41.920 is to say, yeah, hunting is the answer. Yeah, it's 1:30:41.920 --> 1:30:45.880 not the answer. Our model of conservation says it is 1:30:45.920 --> 1:30:48.879 the answer, right, it was the answer for wild turkeys 1:30:48.880 --> 1:30:51.519 and mallard ducks and elk and white tail. These are 1:30:51.640 --> 1:30:55.679 and these are varying populations across different landscapes, with different 1:30:55.720 --> 1:30:59.000 histories and different interactions with humans, and they've all been 1:30:59.040 --> 1:31:05.800 fine being managed on a state basis by science in 1:31:05.840 --> 1:31:08.479 this model. So I trust that enough to say, like, 1:31:08.760 --> 1:31:12.200 let me, I'll fall back on that. I trust that 1:31:12.320 --> 1:31:14.680 enough to say that. So I think that's maybe why 1:31:14.720 --> 1:31:16.760 I'm always like, let's let's let's kill the bears. I 1:31:16.760 --> 1:31:19.760 guess let's do it. Well, it's hard because all those 1:31:19.800 --> 1:31:23.559 animals are inherently so different than grizzly bears. They're either 1:31:24.120 --> 1:31:27.280 geese that you agree though, that they're inherently different than 1:31:27.320 --> 1:31:30.280 each other, absolutely, But I think that some of the 1:31:30.360 --> 1:31:35.320 key differences are that they reproduce quickly, they are far ranging, 1:31:35.680 --> 1:31:39.839 they can fly, or they have these migrations. They aren't 1:31:40.120 --> 1:31:43.920 killing you, and they're generally not on T shirts and 1:31:44.000 --> 1:31:48.400 sell gift shops. Yeah you know elk, yes, but they 1:31:48.439 --> 1:31:50.800 don't kill you and there's a lot of them, there's 1:31:50.840 --> 1:31:52.720 not seven. But I think that sets it up well. 1:31:52.760 --> 1:31:58.040 It's like, yeah, look there's this unique animal, right that 1:31:58.160 --> 1:32:01.080 is not unique in the fact that we drove, we 1:32:01.200 --> 1:32:02.920 killed a ship ton of them, and now there were 1:32:02.920 --> 1:32:05.880 a few, because that happened with the other species we 1:32:05.960 --> 1:32:09.040 just named. So in that, in this way, it's not unique. 1:32:10.280 --> 1:32:13.560 It is unique in a lot of other ways. It's megafauna, 1:32:13.880 --> 1:32:17.640 super charismatic. They show up and you were gonna wear 1:32:17.640 --> 1:32:21.080 a grizzly bear was. They show up, they show up 1:32:21.120 --> 1:32:23.519 in your kids crib, they show up on TV. Like 1:32:24.439 --> 1:32:26.160 I truly do believe that that ends up being the 1:32:26.160 --> 1:32:29.280 heart of this anyways, right, because let's live in Let's 1:32:29.280 --> 1:32:32.080 say we live in a world that there there are 1:32:32.080 --> 1:32:34.240 no anti hunters and there are no animal rights groups 1:32:34.280 --> 1:32:35.600 to argue this and to put this in front of 1:32:35.600 --> 1:32:42.160 the judge. Texas, Yes, Texas, put up offense around, put 1:32:42.160 --> 1:32:44.160 the fence up around. The grizzly bears ain't going anywhere. 1:32:44.240 --> 1:32:47.600 They'll they'll grow, Yeah, they'll they'll be huge. There'll be 1:32:47.720 --> 1:32:51.200 thousands of them. Those just benefense. But let's say we 1:32:51.280 --> 1:32:53.439 live in that world where there isn't any anti hunters 1:32:53.479 --> 1:32:58.240 and nobody, nobody challenged the way this went down. Um okay, 1:32:58.400 --> 1:33:03.240 and that in that world, I not not having the 1:33:03.400 --> 1:33:05.800 knowledge of you know, grizzly bear gestation and the way 1:33:05.840 --> 1:33:08.439 they interact with national worth that you do. And that's 1:33:08.439 --> 1:33:09.679 why I wanted to have you on because I don't 1:33:09.720 --> 1:33:13.200 have that knowledge, and and I think most hunters don't, 1:33:14.280 --> 1:33:18.519 almost all of them. If anna hunters didn't exist and 1:33:18.520 --> 1:33:21.320 this was never challenged, and this went forward, and these 1:33:21.360 --> 1:33:25.639 twenty two folks, unencumbered went out and shot twenty two bears. 1:33:26.680 --> 1:33:30.320 I think if the next year you went back and 1:33:30.400 --> 1:33:33.160 you said did so, if you were looking at a 1:33:33.200 --> 1:33:35.799 few things that we just talked about, did problem bears 1:33:36.280 --> 1:33:40.120 the interactions with humans and problem bears decrease, I would 1:33:40.400 --> 1:33:44.800 guess no. Right, so that that would be my guest, 1:33:44.920 --> 1:33:46.920 just because the random nature of killing an animal and 1:33:47.000 --> 1:33:51.200 another animal another area doing something we don't like. No, 1:33:52.360 --> 1:33:57.559 would that population of bears, the Yellowstone Great yellostone population 1:33:57.600 --> 1:34:01.880 of bears be unable to to see those other populations 1:34:01.880 --> 1:34:04.120 of bears the other four or five that you mentioned, 1:34:04.120 --> 1:34:07.080 there are four critical ones that you mentioned, I would 1:34:07.120 --> 1:34:09.519 say yes, they will still be able to do their 1:34:09.600 --> 1:34:14.920 job in allowing the same to grow. Um, So in 1:34:15.000 --> 1:34:18.760 the end, both sides are a little bit wrong. Like 1:34:19.400 --> 1:34:22.200 when I think in the end it would work and 1:34:22.360 --> 1:34:26.720 still not do in this one case, still not do 1:34:28.160 --> 1:34:32.720 any real damage to the future grizzly bears. And I 1:34:32.800 --> 1:34:35.599 think you know in the court decision, there's nothing about 1:34:36.000 --> 1:34:40.080 hunting twenty three bears. Yeah, I know, it's about the law, 1:34:40.360 --> 1:34:44.840 the connectivity, the genetics. Uh have you said you you're 1:34:44.840 --> 1:34:46.640 saying you read it a few times, Like, what's you know? 1:34:46.720 --> 1:34:48.960 Give us to the crib notes on this this guy, 1:34:49.280 --> 1:34:51.760 I mean basically what he's saying. It's like it's complicated. 1:34:51.920 --> 1:34:56.080 I realized, appreciate I'm saying that it's emotional. Guys, this 1:34:56.160 --> 1:34:57.840 is easy. Yeah, I'll tell you what to do the 1:34:57.920 --> 1:34:59.800 things with won in your shirts, let them live well 1:34:59.840 --> 1:35:01.439 in I'm sure if you had to be with this guy, 1:35:01.479 --> 1:35:03.840 he would be like, that was a challenging decision because 1:35:03.960 --> 1:35:06.960 there are there are rights on both sides of the 1:35:07.320 --> 1:35:09.479 there are truths on both sides. Yeah, but he made 1:35:09.520 --> 1:35:12.200 his decision based on the law that exists, and and 1:35:12.439 --> 1:35:14.680 if he didn't make this decision, he would have not 1:35:14.840 --> 1:35:17.160 been doing the law of justice. Or he would have 1:35:17.160 --> 1:35:19.320 had to change the law, which gets into a scary 1:35:19.360 --> 1:35:21.240 place where we say, oh, we really give a shit 1:35:21.280 --> 1:35:25.160 about this issue. Let's change a holistic law that manages 1:35:25.160 --> 1:35:27.400 wildlife at large. Yeah, I mean I think in I 1:35:27.439 --> 1:35:29.040 don't have this all in my head, but I think. 1:35:29.080 --> 1:35:31.040 And then if you talk to like the guys that 1:35:31.120 --> 1:35:35.360 Sportsman Alliance or or or pro hunter advocate groups, you 1:35:35.400 --> 1:35:39.519 would find that around this e s a thing. They 1:35:39.600 --> 1:35:42.519 lose a lot. They lose a lot because the law 1:35:42.600 --> 1:35:44.479 is really kind of in this way, even in like 1:35:45.640 --> 1:35:48.320 in semantics, really not on their side in a lot 1:35:48.400 --> 1:35:52.519 of these cases. Um, then they might tell me I'm wrong, 1:35:52.600 --> 1:35:56.200 but I'd like in just anecdotally having been trying to 1:35:56.240 --> 1:35:58.600 get educated about wolves and bears, and in some of 1:35:58.640 --> 1:36:02.240 these situations, I feel like they lose a lot just 1:36:02.360 --> 1:36:05.920 based on the legal precedents. Well, and it's hard right, 1:36:06.000 --> 1:36:08.880 like sage grouse, it's a hard thing. People run cattle. 1:36:09.080 --> 1:36:12.240 People don't want critical habitat on their backyard. I know. 1:36:14.160 --> 1:36:17.559 I've done work in sane just country with people deeply 1:36:17.640 --> 1:36:22.840 invested in that research who no of ranchers. Obviously it 1:36:22.920 --> 1:36:25.080 is not indicative of the whole, but like when they 1:36:25.120 --> 1:36:28.360 were on the table to be listed, ranchers destroyed the 1:36:28.439 --> 1:36:30.400 lex on their property because they didn't want critical habits 1:36:30.479 --> 1:36:34.439 on their land. It's a real thing. There's more people 1:36:34.880 --> 1:36:38.000 every year on earth trying to make a living, and 1:36:38.160 --> 1:36:41.000 there are fewer animals with an opportunity to make a living. 1:36:41.439 --> 1:36:43.439 And I think that trend. Gosh, that's a good way 1:36:43.479 --> 1:36:46.720 to put it, man, because every time, I mean, that's 1:36:46.800 --> 1:36:50.000 Republican versus Democrat right now in this issue, right it is. 1:36:50.439 --> 1:36:56.400 I mean it's it's jobs versus environment and not making 1:36:56.479 --> 1:36:58.479 more environment. No, we can make more jobs. And that's 1:36:58.520 --> 1:37:02.920 what I think I always come back to. I think, yeah, 1:37:02.920 --> 1:37:05.800 it's there's some logical fallacy in the jobs. You know, 1:37:05.920 --> 1:37:07.760 we we need to attract because we need jobs. We 1:37:07.800 --> 1:37:10.880 need a healthy consistants, healthy have a healthy country. Um. 1:37:10.960 --> 1:37:14.080 I think Governor meat and Waowings and what he said 1:37:14.080 --> 1:37:17.760 about sage Grouse said it, well, in that particular state, 1:37:18.760 --> 1:37:22.800 they need healthy habitats. So you can have a healthy 1:37:22.880 --> 1:37:28.479 state economically, right, and so any hindrance of that bye 1:37:29.040 --> 1:37:32.080 by ridding yourself of that critical habitat and that and 1:37:32.160 --> 1:37:35.560 that wildlife in exchange for extraction or cattle ranching or 1:37:35.600 --> 1:37:38.000 whatever you might be doing is short sighted from an 1:37:38.040 --> 1:37:42.719 economic standpoint um, which is which has been the argument 1:37:42.840 --> 1:37:46.200 a lot. Well, the hard thing about it is that 1:37:47.600 --> 1:37:54.120 it boils down to people trying to support their families, 1:37:55.560 --> 1:37:57.920 you know, and we can assume that most people are 1:37:58.000 --> 1:38:02.880 trying their best and ecosystems and wildlife who don't vote 1:38:03.800 --> 1:38:08.120 yeah or or and don't need cash to pay their mortgage. Oh, 1:38:08.280 --> 1:38:11.120 it's it's it's. This is one of those situations where 1:38:11.280 --> 1:38:13.679 and there's a few of them in politics or in life, 1:38:14.880 --> 1:38:19.479 where it's human nature versus human nature. Human nature is 1:38:19.520 --> 1:38:21.600 to thrive and survive and feed your family and and 1:38:21.920 --> 1:38:25.040 be and in the game of life succeed. And if 1:38:25.080 --> 1:38:27.280 you have identified this one way to succeed, and that's 1:38:27.280 --> 1:38:30.800 a being, there's an impediment that is a bird or 1:38:30.920 --> 1:38:34.960 a bear, or your human nature says to rid yourself 1:38:35.000 --> 1:38:37.840 of that impediment, so then you can't succeed. And I 1:38:37.920 --> 1:38:42.679 get that all the way, but I feel like also 1:38:42.960 --> 1:38:46.479 somewhere in our human nature is the ability to have 1:38:46.680 --> 1:38:50.120 empathy for other living beings. And if we lose that empathy, 1:38:50.200 --> 1:38:53.640 we become sociopathic assholes. And rather not do that and 1:38:53.720 --> 1:38:58.960 we delete your comments. We delete your comments. I love judges, 1:38:59.640 --> 1:39:03.080 all of or impartial um. But but I think that 1:39:03.920 --> 1:39:07.599 empathy is also part of human nature. So your human 1:39:07.680 --> 1:39:10.200 nature should allow you to be empathetic for animals and 1:39:10.280 --> 1:39:13.280 allow you to understand their plight because, like you said, 1:39:13.320 --> 1:39:17.519 they can't speak for themselves. What human nature also says, 1:39:17.720 --> 1:39:21.200 survival is key. So what do we do? You tell me, Charles, 1:39:21.240 --> 1:39:24.680 I got nothing. I mean, it's so hard because I 1:39:24.840 --> 1:39:27.920 get it, like more than anything. I want to move 1:39:28.000 --> 1:39:30.160 into my new house, take care of my wife and 1:39:30.240 --> 1:39:32.320 raise a family. Yeah, I get that. Now. If there 1:39:32.400 --> 1:39:34.840 was now let's say there's if there was a you know, 1:39:36.000 --> 1:39:40.080 situation where having stage dress on your land impeded your 1:39:41.000 --> 1:39:42.720 like cost you money to where you had to go 1:39:42.840 --> 1:39:44.680 get a night job and didn't see get your kid 1:39:44.800 --> 1:39:47.320 and your kids get depressed because you were never around. 1:39:47.920 --> 1:39:49.560 But there were ship tons of stage grouse on the 1:39:49.600 --> 1:39:53.439 ten ten acres. You have to make some decisions there. 1:39:53.920 --> 1:39:56.519 I mean. A story that comes to mind is my 1:39:56.720 --> 1:39:59.960 friend Chris Boys. He's doing the in the Okavongo Dell, 1:40:00.080 --> 1:40:04.240 the research project for Nagio. It's the wildest watershed left 1:40:04.280 --> 1:40:07.799 in Africa. He came across a bunch of elephant poachers recently, 1:40:09.080 --> 1:40:12.360 these guys who have nothing. When poachers kill elephants, they 1:40:12.400 --> 1:40:15.160 usually cut their head off and bury it, and then 1:40:15.400 --> 1:40:17.640 they basically wait. They'll sit there at camp, bury the 1:40:17.720 --> 1:40:20.040 body or the head, and wait for the head to 1:40:20.080 --> 1:40:21.880 decompose the point where they can pull the ivory out. 1:40:22.560 --> 1:40:26.200 So my friend Chris, who's a South African explorer, he's 1:40:26.200 --> 1:40:31.320 an awesome guy. He comes up on these guys guns scared. 1:40:31.960 --> 1:40:34.760 They got a few elephant heads in the ground. He's like, 1:40:35.320 --> 1:40:38.439 that's crazy. He talks these guys, they say, I can 1:40:38.520 --> 1:40:41.040 kill one elephant. That I realized is a bad thing. 1:40:41.240 --> 1:40:43.400 I realized it's illegal and makes me sad. I grew 1:40:43.520 --> 1:40:49.160 up here, born here watching elephants. I respect them. I 1:40:49.200 --> 1:40:51.479 also have no money. I have a family to feed. 1:40:51.840 --> 1:40:54.040 I cut this thing's head off because I need to 1:40:54.080 --> 1:40:57.200 feed my family. That's the reality. And he's like, I 1:40:57.280 --> 1:41:00.800 can't argue with that. It's shitty. It's sad that guy 1:41:00.880 --> 1:41:04.479 is desperate that elephants dead there in decline. But it's real, ship, 1:41:05.080 --> 1:41:07.960 you know, And I think you can't blame the guy 1:41:08.280 --> 1:41:11.320 necessarily who might have the stage grouse in this yard. 1:41:11.360 --> 1:41:15.719 Who does something that's maybe unethical, but that's real stuff. 1:41:15.920 --> 1:41:18.479 And I think with the grizzly bear, people who lose 1:41:19.520 --> 1:41:24.360 livestock even though there are funds available that give money 1:41:24.479 --> 1:41:26.800 to replace those animals, Like, that's a real thing and 1:41:26.920 --> 1:41:30.599 you feel like your life or your lifestyle is threatened. However, 1:41:31.200 --> 1:41:34.840 it also is just a complicated pr narrative where that 1:41:35.160 --> 1:41:38.240 guy is getting sued by a Portland lawyer on behalf 1:41:38.320 --> 1:41:42.120 of Center for Biological Diversity. That looks bad. He doesn't 1:41:42.160 --> 1:41:44.160 live there, he doesn't have a stage grouse or grizzly 1:41:44.240 --> 1:41:46.320 or wolves in his backyard. But the fact the matter 1:41:46.479 --> 1:41:49.519 is one that guy on the ranch is probably not 1:41:49.560 --> 1:41:52.160 gonna get the tag shoot the grizzly bear. Yeah, that's 1:41:52.240 --> 1:41:54.960 that's that's the thing. Like I always cater remove that 1:41:55.080 --> 1:41:59.880 from the hunting conversation. Right again, all this stuff is 1:42:00.080 --> 1:42:04.240 just my opinion. It's not very educated. I read a 1:42:04.280 --> 1:42:06.080 lot and I try my best as well, I'll tell you, 1:42:07.080 --> 1:42:10.760 but I just almost always eliminate from the conversation because 1:42:10.760 --> 1:42:14.640 I don't I truly don't believe unless unless somebody from 1:42:14.680 --> 1:42:16.479 the State Wyomi would come on and say we are 1:42:16.720 --> 1:42:20.800 we are targeting problem bears in areas around suburban and 1:42:21.000 --> 1:42:24.800 urban you know, in in the case of where where 1:42:24.840 --> 1:42:27.880 people live where targeting areas problem bears, when people live 1:42:27.880 --> 1:42:30.000 in these twenty two tags are going to that, and 1:42:30.080 --> 1:42:32.360 then you're not as a hunter, You're like, well, why 1:42:32.400 --> 1:42:34.680 am I going? Right? That doesn't give me all the 1:42:34.760 --> 1:42:37.400 things hunting gives me. Now, I'm just just paying to 1:42:37.520 --> 1:42:40.560 be shooting, paying to shoot a past and so like 1:42:40.680 --> 1:42:44.680 that to me, if I'm looking at as a non 1:42:44.800 --> 1:42:48.840 grizzly bear hunter, I've killed a lot of bears, So 1:42:48.960 --> 1:42:52.120 I could say I wouldn't go in that hunt. I 1:42:52.160 --> 1:42:54.560 wouldn't pay to go in that hunt. I would not 1:42:54.680 --> 1:42:58.599 pay to go and eliminate that pest and call it hunting. Well, 1:42:58.640 --> 1:43:00.960 it's unique in that in this case we're talking about 1:43:01.640 --> 1:43:07.599 the deal listing of a potential game animal that threats people, 1:43:09.000 --> 1:43:12.519 where you, as the hunter, are not saying I'm using 1:43:12.640 --> 1:43:21.360 my bullet, arrow or shotgun two manage a population. You're 1:43:21.680 --> 1:43:23.679 saying I'm going to maybe you make the wood safer. 1:43:23.840 --> 1:43:26.240 There's a Disknecht there, Yeah, No, there definitely is. And 1:43:26.640 --> 1:43:34.320 I think you could argue that a well managed population 1:43:35.880 --> 1:43:40.439 is is less apt to have problem animals, you know, 1:43:40.920 --> 1:43:44.320 doing what they're doing. If there's if there's less bears, 1:43:45.360 --> 1:43:48.519 less competition for the things they need to survive, food 1:43:48.640 --> 1:43:51.640 and all those types of things you have less, it 1:43:51.640 --> 1:43:54.360 would be a less problematic situation. Now. You could say that, 1:43:55.640 --> 1:43:57.880 but I would need you to prove that to me, 1:43:58.560 --> 1:44:01.000 because it seems right. It seems like, hey, if we 1:44:01.080 --> 1:44:05.519 have seven bears, if we have and they're all competing 1:44:05.680 --> 1:44:09.760 for you know, a relatively they're not relatively small, but 1:44:09.960 --> 1:44:12.120 but in an area for for food and for all 1:44:12.160 --> 1:44:17.600 the things they need to survive, that shrapnel from that 1:44:17.720 --> 1:44:20.360 competition ends up being what we're talking about. Right. If 1:44:20.360 --> 1:44:23.160 it's spill over, it's spillover. Now, if there's less animals, 1:44:23.200 --> 1:44:26.320 that be less spillover, right, I could get with that. 1:44:28.080 --> 1:44:29.720 I just but I just don't think twenty two in 1:44:29.760 --> 1:44:34.840 this situation is enough. I don't. And then again I don't. Haven't. 1:44:35.360 --> 1:44:36.840 I'm not a wildife followed it, so I don't know. 1:44:36.960 --> 1:44:40.320 But that's that would be my just regular dude thoughts on. Yeah, well, 1:44:40.360 --> 1:44:42.519 and it's you know, and the corollary to that is 1:44:42.560 --> 1:44:44.719 like the bison in Yellstone. Every year, the Park Service 1:44:44.840 --> 1:44:47.599 kills hundreds of every winter they kill hundreds of bison 1:44:47.960 --> 1:44:52.400 because bison, like elk, carry brucellisis can carry brucellosis which 1:44:52.560 --> 1:44:57.000 can cause cattle to abort cats. That's a real thing. 1:44:58.640 --> 1:45:02.599 Yelisa National Park as an oversupply of bison, the excess 1:45:02.640 --> 1:45:05.839 are killed. Ye. Also in National Park has an excess 1:45:05.840 --> 1:45:09.720 of grizzly bears, the bad ones are killed. You know, 1:45:10.240 --> 1:45:15.679 I mean it's it's would you would you say um again, 1:45:15.800 --> 1:45:17.720 like going back to like why hunting for me? What 1:45:17.840 --> 1:45:20.960 what hunting ends up being? It's like healthy ecosystems and 1:45:21.720 --> 1:45:27.200 and that kind of thing. Would you say that that's 1:45:27.600 --> 1:45:31.160 we can define those interactions. You're just talking about the 1:45:31.240 --> 1:45:37.800 killing of an animal for something other than um, you know, 1:45:38.160 --> 1:45:41.320 hunting purposes, virtuous hunting purposes, or however we'll put that 1:45:41.720 --> 1:45:46.760 term is unhealthy interactions with wildlife. That's like an unhealthy 1:45:48.120 --> 1:45:50.640 killing it with a car, killing it with a with 1:45:50.760 --> 1:45:53.559 a gun because it carries a certain type of disease, 1:45:53.640 --> 1:45:56.519 killing it with a gun because it's threatening someone's life. 1:45:56.560 --> 1:46:01.120 For someone's livelihood is like the example of human wildlife 1:46:01.160 --> 1:46:04.320 interaction that is unhealthy. Yeah, but I mean we live 1:46:04.360 --> 1:46:07.519 in the anthropscene, like the epic we live in is 1:46:07.600 --> 1:46:10.960 the one defined by humanity. So it's not like we're 1:46:11.040 --> 1:46:14.599 making these decisions based on science alone necessarily. Well yeah, 1:46:14.600 --> 1:46:17.400 but like the only the only opportunity, the only option 1:46:17.479 --> 1:46:19.799 we have is to determine, like what's an unhealthy interaction, 1:46:19.880 --> 1:46:22.240 what's a healthy one, and promote the healthy one, right, yeah, 1:46:22.360 --> 1:46:26.000 And but sometimes a healthy one conflicts with with society. 1:46:26.040 --> 1:46:27.760 I mean a great example in the segue into the 1:46:28.080 --> 1:46:32.280 California fire situation, there are a hundred and twenty nine 1:46:32.439 --> 1:46:35.720 million dead trees in California. Many of them are dead 1:46:35.720 --> 1:46:40.639 because of drought that's exacerbated by warming winters. Also pine beetles, 1:46:41.200 --> 1:46:46.760 same thing in Montana. Californians don't want to see, you know, 1:46:47.680 --> 1:46:50.639 people coming in and cutting down dead trees and building 1:46:51.320 --> 1:46:55.200 walking roads. People who live in California and elsewhere we 1:46:55.320 --> 1:46:58.240 had fire this summer. It was shitty. You don't want 1:46:58.600 --> 1:47:01.800 your backyard forest being burned as a prescribed burn because 1:47:01.800 --> 1:47:03.360 you don't want to have your kids breathing in the air. 1:47:04.200 --> 1:47:08.640 Those are real things. The results of those realities, or 1:47:08.720 --> 1:47:13.320 that you have this excess timber that's dead that turns 1:47:13.439 --> 1:47:18.320 our force into potential bonfire, which is what happening now, 1:47:18.360 --> 1:47:23.360 and it's freaking horrible hundreds, you know, And that's a 1:47:23.479 --> 1:47:26.599 real thing. It's like you're telling people, hey, we're gonna 1:47:26.680 --> 1:47:28.519 let your back out in fire this summer. It's gonna 1:47:28.560 --> 1:47:31.720 help you out in ten years. Or we understand that 1:47:32.240 --> 1:47:35.880 California is environmentally a very environmentally progressive in friendly state, 1:47:36.240 --> 1:47:38.040 we need to build a bunch of logging roads through 1:47:38.080 --> 1:47:39.920 this national force and cut down a ship ton of 1:47:40.000 --> 1:47:43.000 trees to save. And that's that's I think ends up 1:47:43.080 --> 1:47:47.240 what ends up happening around the more pragmatic approach of 1:47:47.320 --> 1:47:50.360 someone that's involved with wildlife, you know, like on the 1:47:50.439 --> 1:47:54.800 ground um decision making to say, hey, here's I love 1:47:54.880 --> 1:47:57.040 the environment, but I don't love it so much. I'm 1:47:57.080 --> 1:47:59.360 not gonna love it to death, right, which is what 1:47:59.479 --> 1:48:02.880 you're talking. Wow, So you talk about a pragmatic love, 1:48:02.960 --> 1:48:05.120 which is I think what most hunters hold and what 1:48:05.320 --> 1:48:08.000 most health fishermen hold and most outdoorsmen hold, which is 1:48:08.120 --> 1:48:12.120 the healthiest type of love, and an unhealthy type of love, 1:48:12.200 --> 1:48:17.080 which is love something without any context of how to 1:48:17.280 --> 1:48:20.960 really do it justice. Well, in my argument, my counter 1:48:21.040 --> 1:48:24.000 that would be you have the far left that are 1:48:24.040 --> 1:48:25.720 like I need this many grizzly barras because I want 1:48:25.720 --> 1:48:27.960 to get photos of them. But a lot of hunters, 1:48:27.960 --> 1:48:30.720 I bet you aren't super verse in genetics, you know, 1:48:30.960 --> 1:48:33.720 And that's I would say, are neither. Neither of those 1:48:33.720 --> 1:48:36.280 two folks are versed in genetics, right, neither. But I 1:48:36.320 --> 1:48:41.200 would say, like, those are probably two gaps that lead 1:48:41.280 --> 1:48:44.639 to opinions that are maybe uninformed to a certain degree. 1:48:45.320 --> 1:48:48.639 And then I'm not very willing to call out hunters 1:48:49.200 --> 1:48:53.839 right for what I believe is a deficiency and knowledge 1:48:53.880 --> 1:48:57.280 and opinion like that. I get super frustrated with certain 1:48:57.360 --> 1:49:03.400 groups in our world that fit that start their communication 1:49:03.960 --> 1:49:09.840 with their constituency of hunters by telling them hunting is 1:49:09.960 --> 1:49:14.599 always the always a solution, Hunting is always right, Hunting 1:49:14.760 --> 1:49:20.640 is the best thing to do always. Bullshit, bullshit, No, 1:49:21.439 --> 1:49:27.639 I'm sorry, not happening, Not happening. Um It's it would 1:49:27.640 --> 1:49:29.920 be just as well to say, like, here's the history 1:49:29.960 --> 1:49:33.040 of why this is good. Here's what's happened in the past, 1:49:33.200 --> 1:49:37.960 why our monologue conservation works, Here's why we here's why 1:49:38.040 --> 1:49:40.839 we is. The Rocky Mountain Foundation of Ducks Unlimited protect 1:49:40.920 --> 1:49:44.439 nesting grounds and and critical habitat for elk, and these 1:49:44.479 --> 1:49:46.280 are the things, these are why we do these things now, 1:49:47.520 --> 1:49:49.840 that should inform the way we think about grizzly bears. 1:49:51.280 --> 1:49:54.920 But that isn't We can't just blindly walk up to 1:49:55.000 --> 1:49:57.880 that and say hunt them, right, I can't do it. Well, 1:49:58.000 --> 1:50:02.120 it's hard because in the nineteen of any three, when 1:50:02.160 --> 1:50:05.800 a lot of these precedents sending setting legal measures were 1:50:06.240 --> 1:50:11.120 enacted into law, our environments weren't changing like they are today. 1:50:11.520 --> 1:50:15.280 So it's hard to say we have the numbers where 1:50:15.280 --> 1:50:17.120 we want them to be today, but we don't know 1:50:17.160 --> 1:50:19.479 what's going to happen to the rest of the pine trees. 1:50:19.960 --> 1:50:22.320 We don't know what's gonna happen to the snowpack. We 1:50:22.400 --> 1:50:25.360 don't know what's going to happen to you know, white 1:50:25.400 --> 1:50:28.639 deal white tailed deer populations. You know those girzly bears 1:50:28.680 --> 1:50:30.519 that you see pine nuts are now eating more meat. 1:50:30.640 --> 1:50:32.439 There's more hunters and people in the woods than ever, 1:50:33.080 --> 1:50:36.080 right for conflict, more cars than ever, more development than ever. 1:50:36.160 --> 1:50:38.760 So it's like, those are things that I think lead 1:50:38.800 --> 1:50:41.120 me to like I don't freaking know, Like I don't 1:50:41.120 --> 1:50:43.479 know what the answer is. It's yeah, I mean really 1:50:43.560 --> 1:50:48.000 damn complicated it's me, would you like, is I think 1:50:48.040 --> 1:50:49.799 you get to a point where, like, is your opinion 1:50:49.920 --> 1:50:53.640 that the least amount of bears killed possible is the 1:50:53.760 --> 1:50:58.519 right thing to do. My it's a hard answer for 1:50:58.560 --> 1:50:59.960 the short term, I know. Yeah, I know. It's just 1:51:00.000 --> 1:51:03.040 saying like, once, okay, let's let's say, let's let's get out, 1:51:03.240 --> 1:51:08.200 get off the table. Um, what might happen in the future. 1:51:08.479 --> 1:51:11.599 You know, for like the current that current population, um, 1:51:12.920 --> 1:51:16.120 there's seven hundred of them. The least number of those 1:51:16.200 --> 1:51:18.519 things killed, the better for the next three years, so 1:51:18.640 --> 1:51:23.080 we can see how that affects these other populations. Yeah, 1:51:23.160 --> 1:51:26.280 I mean I think that don't just say well, you 1:51:26.320 --> 1:51:27.960 know what, Okay, this is but I don't know. I don't. 1:51:28.200 --> 1:51:32.280 I will start just saying don't I do not disagree. No, 1:51:32.600 --> 1:51:35.640 And and I'm certainly they're like, my goal is to 1:51:35.760 --> 1:51:38.840 have grizzly bears off the es A managed by the States, 1:51:39.439 --> 1:51:43.120 because that means we succeeded. Conservation was a success. Yeah, 1:51:43.160 --> 1:51:45.599 So that yeah, that's I think we like, we get 1:51:45.680 --> 1:51:48.439 in a lot of these conversations where it's like I 1:51:48.520 --> 1:51:52.040 believe totally different. Again, I think most people that care 1:51:52.040 --> 1:51:54.800 about wildlife feel the same way. I feel exactly the 1:51:54.840 --> 1:51:57.400 same way. Anti hunters and hunters feel the same way. 1:51:57.840 --> 1:52:02.760 They're just really crappy. They're really crappy at getting like 1:52:02.840 --> 1:52:05.120 communicating or just remembering that Like you might speak to 1:52:05.240 --> 1:52:08.120 different languages, but you're like end results the same, Yes, 1:52:08.400 --> 1:52:10.560 you know and not and and listen because I'm not 1:52:11.040 --> 1:52:14.840 somebody who wants to run out and crack a grizzly bear. Um. 1:52:18.640 --> 1:52:21.000 I would say like if if, if this is if 1:52:21.000 --> 1:52:22.880 somebody presenting me a solution said like, just give me, 1:52:23.280 --> 1:52:27.640 give me five years, and you could, you know, scientifically, 1:52:27.720 --> 1:52:31.599 say here's here's how grizzly bears breed, how they grow, 1:52:31.760 --> 1:52:36.560 how they travel, how critical populations can seed other populations, 1:52:36.880 --> 1:52:39.720 and if you give me six years as a scientist 1:52:40.280 --> 1:52:43.519 an ecologist, six years, I can come and report back 1:52:43.560 --> 1:52:47.280 and tell you that that worked, like which it sounds 1:52:47.320 --> 1:52:51.559 like could be done, right. I would be like, cool, great, 1:52:52.320 --> 1:52:54.760 let's give it a shot. But if you fail, we're 1:52:54.800 --> 1:52:57.240 coming in with our guns. But like something like that 1:52:57.400 --> 1:53:00.920 would probably be you know, because it gets the legal 1:53:01.000 --> 1:53:03.559 thing starts to just get frustrating. Well, I think that's 1:53:03.640 --> 1:53:06.000 kind of what he says here. He's like, here's some 1:53:06.160 --> 1:53:08.400 things like here's your homework. You know, this is what 1:53:08.520 --> 1:53:10.120 I this is the these are the flaws that I 1:53:10.240 --> 1:53:15.679 found from a from illegal and also uh conceptual place 1:53:16.560 --> 1:53:19.360 address that and let's get these things that this species 1:53:19.439 --> 1:53:21.760 to a place of stability, then the states can do 1:53:21.800 --> 1:53:24.719 what they want. Well if somebody can, like, please everybody 1:53:24.760 --> 1:53:27.880 agree on stability, because I think that's the thing here now, 1:53:27.960 --> 1:53:30.080 because you get into this, like let's make him stable, 1:53:30.200 --> 1:53:33.759 and anti hunters and rights folks will say, we'll always 1:53:33.840 --> 1:53:36.000 move the goalpost, right, I'm gonna just keep moving the 1:53:36.040 --> 1:53:38.479 goalpost back, back, back back, and you're never gonna get there. 1:53:38.560 --> 1:53:41.439 Ha ha ha. But history would say the opposite, we 1:53:41.479 --> 1:53:44.719 can hunt wolves. Yeah, well ten years ago. But would 1:53:44.720 --> 1:53:49.160 you agree that that's that's a tactic, right, because because 1:53:49.200 --> 1:53:52.439 any any uh animal rights person with where AsSalt that's 1:53:52.439 --> 1:53:54.479 got a brain is going to say, like, man, I 1:53:54.560 --> 1:53:56.240 can I'm not really gonna be able to argue very 1:53:56.320 --> 1:54:00.479 much with that model of conservation. Right, I'm gonna ail there, 1:54:01.000 --> 1:54:02.840 but I still don't want him to kill him. Well, 1:54:02.920 --> 1:54:05.719 I think those I think that's the left that won't 1:54:05.760 --> 1:54:09.800 ever like invite us to dinner, you know. So it's 1:54:09.840 --> 1:54:12.280 like but I know that they're out there, and I 1:54:12.400 --> 1:54:14.920 know the other sides out there, and they're never That's 1:54:14.960 --> 1:54:16.960 why I like, I hope people listening to this can 1:54:17.040 --> 1:54:19.519 gain the perspective that, like, I think there is a 1:54:19.600 --> 1:54:23.120 faction on on the animal right side that wants to 1:54:23.160 --> 1:54:25.800 continue to move the goal posts. I'm sure there is. 1:54:26.520 --> 1:54:31.360 It's it's evident, and I would imagine there's a faction 1:54:31.400 --> 1:54:34.320 in the hunting community that wants to move the goal 1:54:34.400 --> 1:54:39.400 post closer. I disagree with both. I mean it's to 1:54:39.480 --> 1:54:41.720 kill them all or save mo mentality. I disagree with 1:54:41.800 --> 1:54:45.480 both right, and I disagree with that the disingenuous like 1:54:46.680 --> 1:54:50.840 connection between that person who who on the animal right 1:54:50.880 --> 1:54:54.080 side wants to move the goal post connecting themselves with tourism, 1:54:54.480 --> 1:54:57.200 and I disagree with the person on the other side 1:54:57.440 --> 1:55:01.880 who's a hunter connecting themselves to the rancher. Sorry, you 1:55:01.920 --> 1:55:06.280 don't get to play right. I just That's part of 1:55:06.320 --> 1:55:08.200 what I hope people can take away from this conversation 1:55:08.320 --> 1:55:12.920 is like, don't let somebody can that that has this staunch, 1:55:13.160 --> 1:55:18.480 rigid idealism like idealistic view on one side or the 1:55:18.560 --> 1:55:23.560 other connect use use a real world problem to convince 1:55:23.640 --> 1:55:28.560 you that they're right. No, man, no, it's it's way 1:55:28.600 --> 1:55:30.680 more complicated than that. And I think that's the key. 1:55:31.200 --> 1:55:34.800 This is a freaking complicated issue. This is like really 1:55:34.920 --> 1:55:37.080 smart people who spend way more time thinking about this 1:55:37.240 --> 1:55:39.720 than you and me. I would say, like, this is 1:55:40.000 --> 1:55:43.360 freaking complicated, and we're gonna do our best, and we're 1:55:43.360 --> 1:55:46.200 gonna try to to create a blueprint moving forward that 1:55:46.280 --> 1:55:50.839 will be uh judicious and and as fair as possible. 1:55:50.960 --> 1:55:53.760 But like I guarantee you, this judge wasn't like this 1:55:53.960 --> 1:55:56.080 is easy. Let's like, let me just tell you what's up. 1:55:56.280 --> 1:55:59.400 That's my favorite that's my favorite part about society today. 1:55:59.760 --> 1:56:03.040 That's like, if something happens that you disagree with, the 1:56:03.200 --> 1:56:05.879 person who made that decision that you discroe with immediately 1:56:06.000 --> 1:56:11.160 is some sort of evil bought Like oh, it's that 1:56:11.280 --> 1:56:13.920 dark money must have bought that because anal rights guys 1:56:14.040 --> 1:56:17.000 must have paid that judge off. Maybe they did. Maybe 1:56:17.040 --> 1:56:19.000 you're right, but I'm not. I'm not interested in that 1:56:19.080 --> 1:56:21.960 conversation because if that happened, hopefully somebody finds it, they 1:56:22.040 --> 1:56:26.160 arrest that fucker and put him in jail. Otherwise, otherwise, 1:56:26.280 --> 1:56:29.080 let's just have the conversation because we can't. I'm not 1:56:29.120 --> 1:56:31.560 going to start the conversation with some crazy conspiracy theory 1:56:31.640 --> 1:56:35.280 like that. And and I think what I trust in 1:56:35.320 --> 1:56:37.360 your readings of that is that that that decisions a 1:56:37.440 --> 1:56:39.520 person who looked at the law, which is his job 1:56:40.240 --> 1:56:43.040 and his determination, was the way this law is written, 1:56:43.320 --> 1:56:45.360 this isn't the right thing to do. And I think, 1:56:45.400 --> 1:56:46.960 at the end of the day, and if learn anything 1:56:47.000 --> 1:56:50.920 from interm elections is the public is hungry for people 1:56:50.960 --> 1:56:53.800 who straddle the middle and who are flexible and the like. 1:56:54.440 --> 1:56:56.440 I had a vegan dinner yesterday, but I shouted during 1:56:56.480 --> 1:56:59.360 my dough. I shot it, tearing my daddy. I shot 1:56:59.400 --> 1:57:01.120 a deer in my yard it last night. That was 1:57:01.200 --> 1:57:04.600 kind of my weak story, you know. But that's I'm 1:57:04.720 --> 1:57:07.440 hungry for that. I am hungry for that in my 1:57:07.560 --> 1:57:11.360 daily life. And and I think I'm sure there's a 1:57:11.400 --> 1:57:13.000 lot of people that are hungry for that too, that 1:57:13.080 --> 1:57:19.800 are hungry for that type of world where, um, it's 1:57:19.840 --> 1:57:23.840 not easy because it's super easy to be rigid because 1:57:23.880 --> 1:57:26.640 then you don't have to think just a reaction. You 1:57:26.760 --> 1:57:30.680 don't have to if if everything as a hunter, if 1:57:30.760 --> 1:57:34.560 all I was doing was looking for validation for my opinions. 1:57:35.400 --> 1:57:37.440 Life would be easy because I would know who to hate, 1:57:37.600 --> 1:57:39.800 I would know who to like, I would know who 1:57:39.840 --> 1:57:41.640 to have dinner with, I would know who to keep 1:57:41.680 --> 1:57:45.240 out of my yard. It just makes life easier. And 1:57:45.560 --> 1:57:49.600 and I think at some level, I I care about 1:57:49.640 --> 1:57:52.320 the hunting community. I care about humanity, but I don't 1:57:52.320 --> 1:57:55.240 feel like I can do much with that hunting community. 1:57:55.280 --> 1:57:58.200 I think we can work with here and we can say, Look, 1:57:58.480 --> 1:58:00.600 I care about you. I don't want you to be that. 1:58:01.240 --> 1:58:05.920 I don't want you to be so rigid that you 1:58:06.000 --> 1:58:10.640 can't see. I don't want you to be so so idealistic, 1:58:10.920 --> 1:58:13.000 you know, or idealist not the right word, but so 1:58:13.120 --> 1:58:15.600 rigid that you're blind as I guess what I would say, Well, 1:58:15.680 --> 1:58:18.640 not to be nerdy. But there's a theory of island biogeography. 1:58:19.080 --> 1:58:22.080 So if you think about the condaday, if you think 1:58:22.120 --> 1:58:25.360 about your little island out in the middle of the ocean, 1:58:26.000 --> 1:58:29.000 the number the probability that new species will show up 1:58:29.160 --> 1:58:31.480 is small the further from the mainland you are on 1:58:31.520 --> 1:58:34.720 the smaller island. So if you're a person and you 1:58:34.800 --> 1:58:37.480 have your little island with your little tribe of people 1:58:37.560 --> 1:58:39.920 who are all saying the same thing. I hate all 1:58:39.960 --> 1:58:42.080 of you. I love all of you. You're not getting 1:58:42.080 --> 1:58:44.120 a lot of new information because you're way the hell 1:58:44.160 --> 1:58:45.200 out in the middle of the ocean. You're on a 1:58:45.240 --> 1:58:48.440 small island. The bigger the island and the closer yard 1:58:48.560 --> 1:58:52.480 the to the mainland, the more other species will show up, 1:58:52.520 --> 1:58:55.520 and you're gonna have a more diverse suite of perspectives 1:58:55.720 --> 1:58:57.680 of an ecosystem. And I think it's important to remember 1:58:57.720 --> 1:59:00.600 that that it's all about saying I'm not going to 1:59:00.720 --> 1:59:03.280 cast myself out into the abyss until everybody go fund 1:59:03.320 --> 1:59:07.360 themselves if they're not speaking my language. But instead it's like, hey, 1:59:08.360 --> 1:59:10.520 coming to the table, let's have a conversation. Maybe I'll 1:59:10.600 --> 1:59:13.080 change my mind. And I think that's the mindset that 1:59:13.160 --> 1:59:16.040 makes progress and makes things like this grizzly berry issue 1:59:16.600 --> 1:59:19.920 all the more palatable because you realize it's these are 1:59:20.080 --> 1:59:24.040 people trying their best, trying to manage an animal that 1:59:24.880 --> 1:59:29.920 is scary and lovable. Well, And I think I think 1:59:30.000 --> 1:59:35.320 that's why UM, as a journalism uh trying to be 1:59:35.400 --> 1:59:37.200 a student of journalism. I try, and I was at 1:59:37.280 --> 1:59:39.280 some point they gave me a piece of paper. Um. 1:59:40.080 --> 1:59:45.760 I think that's why true journalism. Honest, true, unimpeded information 1:59:46.760 --> 1:59:51.240 is being suppressed in our world because that's dangerous, right, 1:59:51.680 --> 1:59:57.520 it's dangerous. You can't manipulate people if they're educated. You can't. 1:59:57.920 --> 2:00:01.360 And the one thing that scared me around the midterm 2:00:01.400 --> 2:00:04.080 elections was the amount of people that I heard, even 2:00:04.120 --> 2:00:06.200 whether I agree with him or not, I think public 2:00:06.280 --> 2:00:09.000 Lands is a huge you know, I love public Lands. 2:00:09.040 --> 2:00:12.000 We talked about that in the beginning of this, but 2:00:12.200 --> 2:00:16.360 public Lands is it's becoming something that people just say, 2:00:17.800 --> 2:00:19.880 and that's just dangerous just because I agree with it. 2:00:20.000 --> 2:00:21.520 Let's say I didn't agree with it, I would be 2:00:21.960 --> 2:00:25.800 mortified that everybody was just parting the same thing. And 2:00:25.920 --> 2:00:31.200 so I feel the midterm elections scared me because of 2:00:31.200 --> 2:00:34.520 the amount of people I saw that were just rolling 2:00:34.560 --> 2:00:39.320 out the campaign at jargon and comments on things that 2:00:39.400 --> 2:00:44.040 I saw. It's like, boys, you ought not to want 2:00:44.040 --> 2:00:47.840 to be a sheep. You should strive to be more right, 2:00:48.160 --> 2:00:50.960 you know, and for the health of the hunting community, 2:00:53.480 --> 2:00:55.240 we should, you know, strive to be a little bit 2:00:55.280 --> 2:01:00.080 more and to be it's good to be provocative, but 2:01:00.200 --> 2:01:03.880 from a place of curiosity, you know, and I think, 2:01:04.040 --> 2:01:05.720 you know, one of the things it's hard for me 2:01:05.840 --> 2:01:08.640 not to, you know, be thinking about my friends and 2:01:08.680 --> 2:01:12.160 family back in California. Um, but it's also hard to 2:01:12.200 --> 2:01:15.200 ignore something that Trump was saying the other day where 2:01:15.200 --> 2:01:18.080 he's like, this is a state issue. When the governor 2:01:18.120 --> 2:01:20.520 asked for federal support, he said no, because you're not 2:01:20.600 --> 2:01:24.200 managing your force. Well, the force in California owned by 2:01:24.200 --> 2:01:27.960 the federal government, owned by private companies or private individuals, 2:01:28.480 --> 2:01:31.080 three owned by the state. So he's putting that out 2:01:31.160 --> 2:01:35.520 there into the world, polarizing people. People who aren't going 2:01:35.560 --> 2:01:38.040 to go and do their homework and figure out the 2:01:38.160 --> 2:01:40.920 distribution of ownership are gonna be like, oh, well, they 2:01:41.240 --> 2:01:43.920 asked for it. I hate when needed Trump goes into 2:01:43.920 --> 2:01:49.120 the conversation because he is the lead asshole. He is 2:01:49.160 --> 2:01:50.880 what we're just talking about. I was thinking that you 2:01:51.000 --> 2:01:55.360 said it. I don't care. I don't care if you listen, 2:01:55.400 --> 2:01:56.960 If you're out there and you support Donald Trumping, you 2:01:57.000 --> 2:01:59.720 don't think he's an asshole? Boy, what, I don't know 2:01:59.800 --> 2:02:03.480 what you're reading, because, yeah, it's about to be Thanksgiving 2:02:03.520 --> 2:02:06.160 pretty soon. If somebody that acted like Donald Trump does 2:02:06.240 --> 2:02:08.800 on Twitter was at your Thanksgiving, you would want to 2:02:08.920 --> 2:02:13.040 kick them out. Immediately, and and and so I hate 2:02:13.080 --> 2:02:16.120 what you hate what I hate When he whether you 2:02:16.160 --> 2:02:17.880 agree with what he was saying or not, you'd be like, 2:02:18.240 --> 2:02:22.680 why is this guy at the table spouting offer and 2:02:22.880 --> 2:02:25.760 just talking ship? That's not true, that's not true, and 2:02:25.880 --> 2:02:30.120 it's really a pity dated and and I can't bring 2:02:30.240 --> 2:02:32.120 facts to the table. Maybe one thing if he was 2:02:32.200 --> 2:02:35.880 off by a few percentage, but California owns three percent 2:02:36.000 --> 2:02:40.920 of their forests, and the fact that there's one million 2:02:40.960 --> 2:02:43.360 dead trees is not we can we can all. It's 2:02:43.400 --> 2:02:48.080 it's so like we just elected the lead person of 2:02:48.160 --> 2:02:50.520 what you like, the person we're just talking about, like 2:02:50.640 --> 2:02:54.320 the person like really, let's let's be a radical centrist, 2:02:54.400 --> 2:02:56.760 let's really think through issues, let's really be you know, 2:02:56.880 --> 2:03:00.640 have have uh sound processes around how we come to 2:03:00.680 --> 2:03:03.080 our opinions. Here's a person who we elected to run 2:03:03.160 --> 2:03:07.360 our country, who got elected in part because he doesn't 2:03:08.080 --> 2:03:13.160 do that or give a ship or give right. I 2:03:13.320 --> 2:03:16.720 can't I hate even to talk about it, but but 2:03:16.800 --> 2:03:20.360 I think what what he's saying. He's not saying something 2:03:20.440 --> 2:03:27.280 that's totally inflammatory. Manage your forest, manage your forest. But well, 2:03:27.320 --> 2:03:29.680 and that's if but if that state voted for him, 2:03:30.840 --> 2:03:34.120 they'd be flying in the helicopters. I think like if 2:03:34.200 --> 2:03:35.960 that wasn't you know, if they had didn't have a 2:03:36.040 --> 2:03:40.880 democratic they have a democratic governor in California. I really 2:03:40.920 --> 2:03:43.520 think if that was a Republican governor asking, he wouldn't 2:03:43.520 --> 2:03:45.920 have got he would have got a different answer. But 2:03:46.040 --> 2:03:49.880 it's just it's it's horrible when in this case, people 2:03:50.280 --> 2:03:56.520 and ecosystems are caught in the polarized crossfire of humanity 2:03:57.560 --> 2:04:00.120 and in the case the grizzly bear, these are air 2:04:00.240 --> 2:04:02.240 is just trying to be freaking bears. You burning it 2:04:02.320 --> 2:04:04.960 up there out there, just they're burning it up. Yeah, 2:04:05.240 --> 2:04:07.920 they're just being fund Is that right? Is that how 2:04:07.960 --> 2:04:09.720 you use that term? Yes, that would be that the 2:04:09.800 --> 2:04:15.200 right episode. Yeah, that would actually mean they're reproducing or 2:04:15.320 --> 2:04:18.840 their potential for countity is is how many offspring you're 2:04:18.840 --> 2:04:21.320 able to have? Like ron Berg, anyway you win in Rome, Like, 2:04:21.360 --> 2:04:23.440 I don't know what it means. I'm not there yet. 2:04:23.520 --> 2:04:26.840 I'll get there. It's crazy because like in this case, 2:04:26.880 --> 2:04:29.240 the grizzly bears are in this case, people and ecosystems 2:04:29.320 --> 2:04:33.080 are just caught in between our inability to find common 2:04:33.120 --> 2:04:36.000 ground or be radical centrists, you know, and instead it's 2:04:36.000 --> 2:04:38.840 like fuck you, fuck you and nothing really gets done 2:04:39.480 --> 2:04:42.440 and then get Yeah, when people are dying, we should 2:04:42.440 --> 2:04:46.000 do the right thing always like hundreds, maybe up to 2:04:46.080 --> 2:04:48.640 a thousand. Yeah, I mean it's it's it's unbelievable. And 2:04:48.640 --> 2:04:50.640 then just so people know that, you know, this is 2:04:50.680 --> 2:04:54.280 your your home statement. You know. I worked with somebody 2:04:54.320 --> 2:04:56.480 from Paradise, the guy used to dunk duck hunt with. 2:04:56.560 --> 2:04:59.480 I haven't talked to him, um hopefully. I don't think 2:04:59.520 --> 2:05:02.400 he lives, Aren Moore, But yeah, I mean it's it's 2:05:03.880 --> 2:05:05.640 I can't imagine what was happening in my area of 2:05:05.640 --> 2:05:09.080 the world. I mean, it is, it's terrible. I mean, 2:05:09.120 --> 2:05:12.400 my dad has respiratory issues because of the smoke, and 2:05:12.480 --> 2:05:14.760 he's talked to the last night. He's sitting in front 2:05:14.800 --> 2:05:17.000 of the air filter with all the doors and windows 2:05:17.040 --> 2:05:21.920 shut in a room, you know. I mean it's crazy. Yeah, 2:05:21.960 --> 2:05:28.000 I mean it just goes back to the fact that 2:05:28.040 --> 2:05:35.240 we should all strive for health, Like do you healthy ecosystems? 2:05:35.680 --> 2:05:40.480 Do you like both sides anybody, whatever side you fall 2:05:40.560 --> 2:05:42.800 on that you read a love and that forest death 2:05:42.920 --> 2:05:46.320 or want to cut it up? You know, like you 2:05:46.360 --> 2:05:49.000 should act with the health of that ecosystem always in mind. 2:05:49.440 --> 2:05:51.720 If you if you did, you wouldn't be breathed in smoke, 2:05:52.280 --> 2:05:55.480 right in. A healthy ecosystem affords a healthy society, and 2:05:55.560 --> 2:05:58.800 I think people now unfortunately being reminded of that through 2:05:58.920 --> 2:06:05.320 horrible things, these hurricanes and these fires, and it means 2:06:05.400 --> 2:06:08.160 something when like your world is destroyed, you know, And 2:06:08.240 --> 2:06:12.400 I think people will in the Southeast will continue to say, like, ship, 2:06:12.600 --> 2:06:15.920 whatever we want to call it, hurricanes are getting worse, 2:06:16.160 --> 2:06:19.280 waters rising, Let's figure out how we can address that, 2:06:19.720 --> 2:06:21.880 whatever you want to call it. Our forests are going 2:06:22.960 --> 2:06:25.280 up in flames, and let's figure out how to address that. 2:06:26.240 --> 2:06:29.480 Because if you're because there's just this like level of 2:06:29.800 --> 2:06:35.320 having an opinion about something you very much know nothing about, 2:06:35.520 --> 2:06:38.560 right like in the example of even me, like I've 2:06:38.560 --> 2:06:43.480 seen the California fires on TV, but I've never experienced that. 2:06:43.960 --> 2:06:45.560 I don't know what it feels like to have to 2:06:45.680 --> 2:06:49.400 leave your home. People that have people that are well 2:06:49.440 --> 2:06:51.240 off that that happens to you can go get a hotel, 2:06:52.400 --> 2:06:58.320 hang out, drink some sparkling water. We're all good. It 2:06:58.440 --> 2:07:01.320 was fun, maybe like a vacation. People that aren't well 2:07:01.360 --> 2:07:03.360 off that are scraping to get by they have to evacuate, 2:07:03.400 --> 2:07:07.280 are fucked right, They're just not that they can't do 2:07:09.040 --> 2:07:13.320 what um other folks can do. So when you're displaced 2:07:13.600 --> 2:07:18.600 by a natural disaster, man, there's no there's no there's 2:07:18.640 --> 2:07:22.520 nothing to rip away your safety. All the all the 2:07:22.600 --> 2:07:24.960 work we do to build this, to isolate ourselves, to 2:07:25.040 --> 2:07:28.280 insulate ourselves from the real world, there's nothing like a 2:07:28.440 --> 2:07:34.120 natural disaster to rip that from you. Nothing like it. Yeah, 2:07:34.120 --> 2:07:37.160 And I think it boils down to a lot of it, 2:07:37.840 --> 2:07:42.800 this idea that we can be bombarded with information that 2:07:43.080 --> 2:07:47.800 is polarized or just straight up bullshit. And I think 2:07:47.800 --> 2:07:51.480 about social media just for an extent, and the people 2:07:51.520 --> 2:07:53.920 who the people who will chime in and say things 2:07:54.520 --> 2:07:59.000 as though they're an expert and get away with it. 2:08:00.040 --> 2:08:02.160 This is crazy. I mean, I think about the environment. 2:08:02.200 --> 2:08:06.680 I went to school for ten years at UC Berkeley 2:08:07.000 --> 2:08:09.640 studying ecology. That was my profession. Like a mechanic goes 2:08:09.720 --> 2:08:13.120 and becomes a professional fixing cars, or you fly planes, 2:08:13.160 --> 2:08:16.200 and that's what you do. There isn't a group of 2:08:16.280 --> 2:08:19.480 people on the internet telling people how to fly planes. 2:08:20.000 --> 2:08:21.839 There isn't a group of people who have never climbed 2:08:22.040 --> 2:08:24.240 l caps saying, oh, ship, this is how I did it. 2:08:24.400 --> 2:08:27.360 I wouldn't do it that way. But there is an 2:08:27.480 --> 2:08:35.480 incredibly loud group of people who have zero ecological, environmental 2:08:35.560 --> 2:08:41.000 scientific background spouting off about ship they don't get. But 2:08:41.400 --> 2:08:44.560 that becomes gospel in a lot of places and a 2:08:44.600 --> 2:08:47.720 lot of communities, and it's crazy. I get it. You 2:08:47.720 --> 2:08:49.400 can look out the way and say force on fire, 2:08:49.640 --> 2:08:53.640 ships messed up. But to start pointing fingers and being 2:08:53.720 --> 2:08:56.200 like this is why. It's like I'm not going to 2:08:56.360 --> 2:08:58.000 napple out of parts and be like you don't know 2:08:58.000 --> 2:09:00.440 how to fucking put a tire on? I do this way. 2:09:01.600 --> 2:09:03.760 But for some reason or know, the environment is this 2:09:03.920 --> 2:09:07.640 like free for all where anybody can be an expert 2:09:07.680 --> 2:09:09.760 overnight and talk about whatever they want to talk about, 2:09:09.800 --> 2:09:15.400 over fishing, wildlife management, rising seas, forced, you know, ecology. 2:09:16.520 --> 2:09:19.880 It's my brother. When we were moving up here, my 2:09:20.040 --> 2:09:23.400 brother and I and my dad were driving through North Texas, 2:09:24.680 --> 2:09:29.240 rolling through in a U haul and um, we're driving 2:09:29.240 --> 2:09:33.000 through an area where there's windmills, I mean probably a 2:09:33.120 --> 2:09:39.000 thousand of them within site of the highway. When I 2:09:39.120 --> 2:09:43.120 see that, when I saw that, I'm like somebody who 2:09:43.160 --> 2:09:50.560 like loves while places, like appreciates landscapes. Like my first 2:09:50.600 --> 2:09:54.040 reaction was like, God, that sucks. And my brother, who 2:09:55.040 --> 2:09:58.960 you know, like really cares about the environment and is 2:09:59.720 --> 2:10:02.000 really hyped up about that like me, they got pissed 2:10:02.000 --> 2:10:06.840 at me. And the conversation we had around it was 2:10:06.960 --> 2:10:09.640 very much like windmills are always good. Yes, He's like 2:10:09.800 --> 2:10:13.320 gas and oil drilling is always bad. Windmills are helped 2:10:13.360 --> 2:10:16.160 as a solution. And I was like, yeah, yeah, I 2:10:16.240 --> 2:10:18.560 think I get that. I can get on more with that, 2:10:19.400 --> 2:10:22.320 like just as yes, my the pragmatic nature of like 2:10:22.400 --> 2:10:24.040 the way I see that, I'm like, yeah, but they 2:10:24.120 --> 2:10:27.720 had the I've seen those big windmill propellers going down 2:10:27.760 --> 2:10:31.080 the highway on on eighteen wheelers. I've seen it. I 2:10:31.160 --> 2:10:33.360 used to live in the corridor and in Illinois where 2:10:33.360 --> 2:10:36.400 they ran them stuff Like I've seen that, and I 2:10:36.560 --> 2:10:38.560 know that they haven't cut roads to get in there 2:10:38.600 --> 2:10:40.440 and put those things up, and I know they kill 2:10:40.480 --> 2:10:44.480 a lot of birds, and I know like it. And 2:10:44.600 --> 2:10:48.360 my I guess my point was like it's complicated. So 2:10:49.040 --> 2:10:50.920 I'm not saying that I know. I'm just saying I 2:10:51.000 --> 2:10:55.400 know it's complicated. I mean it's like domestic oil versus international. 2:10:55.680 --> 2:10:57.760 Do you want the Niger River Delta that lightening on 2:10:57.840 --> 2:11:00.360 fire because illegal oil is such a big part of 2:11:00.400 --> 2:11:03.440 their economy, Or do you want oil that's offshore that 2:11:03.640 --> 2:11:07.240 could come up, you know, like the Horizon oil spill. 2:11:07.280 --> 2:11:10.800 Where it's in our backyards. Maybe we have more regulation 2:11:10.880 --> 2:11:16.040 and higher standards of of practice, but it's like it's 2:11:16.080 --> 2:11:20.120 freaking complicated. You know. Maybe it makes our economy uh 2:11:20.400 --> 2:11:25.879 stronger and less reliant on others, but it's in our backyards. 2:11:26.120 --> 2:11:27.840 You know, I don't know if there's a if there's 2:11:27.880 --> 2:11:31.040 a solution, Well, doesn't it get scary when I think 2:11:31.080 --> 2:11:33.440 it gets really scary when the course correction doesn't happen 2:11:34.320 --> 2:11:39.920 Because yeah, fires, hurricanes, We start to identify really bad 2:11:40.000 --> 2:11:42.760 things that are happening right and happening more frequently and 2:11:42.840 --> 2:11:46.760 more intensely. But what what scares me not that they happen, 2:11:46.760 --> 2:11:49.640 because disasters have happened through time, and humanity has marched 2:11:49.640 --> 2:11:53.520 on in our environments, have have thrived and in a 2:11:53.600 --> 2:11:56.640 lot of ways. But what scares me is that we 2:11:56.720 --> 2:11:59.360 can't course correct right like right now, we're not like 2:11:59.440 --> 2:12:02.280 would you agree we're not course correcting. Is it a 2:12:02.400 --> 2:12:05.440 yearly in California? These fires are happening getting worse. Well, 2:12:05.480 --> 2:12:09.840 so we've there was six years of historic drought. Top 2:12:09.960 --> 2:12:13.400 ten droughts took place in the two thousands ever on record. 2:12:15.600 --> 2:12:21.880 So that collection of droughts I think predisposed California to 2:12:22.040 --> 2:12:26.480 the extreme fires it's experiencing now. Also a legacy of 2:12:26.520 --> 2:12:29.320 fire suppression. You know Smokey the Bear, that was one 2:12:29.360 --> 2:12:32.920 of the worst things we ever did for forests in 2:12:33.560 --> 2:12:38.760 the Inner Mountain West, in the Mediterranean coastal California environment. 2:12:39.040 --> 2:12:41.120 What if we have a we do a film about fire. 2:12:42.160 --> 2:12:43.520 I mean, I think it. Fire is one of the 2:12:43.640 --> 2:12:48.800 most misunderstood aspects of our planet. If you read early 2:12:49.240 --> 2:12:53.960 journals of folks who explored California and horseback, they described 2:12:54.000 --> 2:12:57.000 the stare Nevada as a park like setting, those words 2:12:57.320 --> 2:12:59.240 because you could ride a horse at a gallop through 2:12:59.280 --> 2:13:02.560 the foothills or the mountains and not hit a tree. 2:13:03.040 --> 2:13:08.400 Because fire exists across the spectrum of intensity and frequency, 2:13:09.400 --> 2:13:12.560 and fires are returning to these patches of earth every 2:13:12.760 --> 2:13:17.760 one to three years, burning frequently, but low intensity, thinning 2:13:17.840 --> 2:13:20.480 the forests, creating that park like setting where you had 2:13:20.560 --> 2:13:23.760 some understory, but a lot of mature trees with some 2:13:23.920 --> 2:13:26.320 young ones where it didn't burn, and you would have 2:13:26.360 --> 2:13:31.440 had this patchwork. Now after you know the brilliance of 2:13:31.960 --> 2:13:34.600 the smoky the bear, you know motto came out and 2:13:34.760 --> 2:13:38.760 fire suppression became this huge thing that was necessary in 2:13:38.960 --> 2:13:42.440 some respects because people were moving into these wild interfaces. 2:13:43.120 --> 2:13:45.960 You're left with forests like we have up here at 2:13:46.000 --> 2:13:50.120 our local reservoir, where you literally have deadfall that you 2:13:50.280 --> 2:13:53.240 can't walk through because it hasn't been able to burn 2:13:53.400 --> 2:13:58.160 in ten twenty years. And when you have millions and 2:13:58.280 --> 2:14:04.640 millions of trees that are dead and you have warming winters, 2:14:05.320 --> 2:14:07.920 and I asked the dumb question real quick, why why 2:14:07.960 --> 2:14:10.520 doesn't it burn? Why can't it burn? We suppress it 2:14:10.680 --> 2:14:12.640 when a fire is in a lot of place except 2:14:12.680 --> 2:14:16.240 wilderness areas. If a fire starts, most fires are not 2:14:16.320 --> 2:14:20.840 started by lightning. Most fires started by people. They are 2:14:20.920 --> 2:14:26.240 put out to save property, in life or air quality. 2:14:26.880 --> 2:14:32.000 So unfortunately it's society saying protect me first that compounded 2:14:32.080 --> 2:14:35.640 over decades and decades has been like has led to 2:14:35.760 --> 2:14:39.600 the situation where we basically are surrounded by tinder boxes 2:14:40.320 --> 2:14:43.200 and that can't fire that cigarette or that you know, 2:14:43.400 --> 2:14:46.720 those sparks from that toe chain that weren't wasn't wrapped 2:14:46.800 --> 2:14:49.880 up properly. Doesn't just light a little one acre fire. 2:14:50.040 --> 2:14:52.000 These fires are hundreds of thousands of acres. I mean, 2:14:52.160 --> 2:14:54.840 California has had records setting fires like multiple in the 2:14:54.920 --> 2:14:58.040 last five years, and it's not you know, I was 2:14:58.080 --> 2:15:02.040 reading today that the our agency efforts to suppress or 2:15:02.160 --> 2:15:05.920 to control that fuel load, they've removed eight over eight 2:15:06.000 --> 2:15:12.160 hundred thousand trees. There's a million dead trees. So we've 2:15:12.240 --> 2:15:15.960 removed eight hundred thousands so far, and there's more trees 2:15:15.960 --> 2:15:18.760 are gonna be dying because right now it's like tropical 2:15:19.120 --> 2:15:20.880 in California. I'm gonna talk to my friend yesterday and 2:15:20.880 --> 2:15:22.760 Taho and he says, it's cold Levins. We didn't had 2:15:22.800 --> 2:15:27.240 to look a ring, so it's you know, I think 2:15:27.280 --> 2:15:29.240 California in a lot of Western states are gonna be 2:15:29.280 --> 2:15:32.200 forced to say, hey, I realized the public might not 2:15:32.440 --> 2:15:35.760 want us to log our forests and put fire, um 2:15:36.120 --> 2:15:40.000 you know, uh, logging roads through there or use prescribed 2:15:40.120 --> 2:15:42.080 prescribed fire, but we're gonna have to do that if 2:15:42.120 --> 2:15:44.000 we want to save people in property in the future. 2:15:44.880 --> 2:15:47.280 You know, And I mean I was in Nevada shooting 2:15:47.280 --> 2:15:50.080 the film on the Feral Horse issue this summer, and 2:15:50.120 --> 2:15:52.760 there's a five hundred thousand acre fire that burned through 2:15:52.880 --> 2:15:57.880 northern Nevada like insane. Twenty years ago fire big fires 2:15:57.880 --> 2:16:02.160 were ten thousand acres, twenty thousand acres. Yeah, man, that's 2:16:03.040 --> 2:16:04.879 I was trying to think, like what a good analogy 2:16:04.920 --> 2:16:07.320 would be for what's happening there. But I feel like 2:16:07.360 --> 2:16:09.520 it would fall short. I feel like anything you'd say 2:16:09.560 --> 2:16:13.680 would fall short of. It's just like we don't understand. 2:16:13.760 --> 2:16:16.680 It's like we we bought a house, we build a house. 2:16:18.560 --> 2:16:21.040 We don't understand how to take care of the land 2:16:21.480 --> 2:16:25.760 right especially now, because it's not we've we've we've pushed 2:16:25.800 --> 2:16:29.440 our environment past this threshold of normalcy where we can 2:16:29.480 --> 2:16:31.800 say in the past, things have happened this way, so 2:16:31.880 --> 2:16:34.400 we should prepare for that. Things that are happening or 2:16:34.440 --> 2:16:37.880 everybody's looking at the situation and holy shit, this is 2:16:38.000 --> 2:16:41.560 not even within the realm of possibly that we knew existed. 2:16:41.800 --> 2:16:43.640 This is I mean that fire that burned in Malibu. 2:16:44.160 --> 2:16:47.280 If you read the interviews of the firefighters, they're saying 2:16:47.440 --> 2:16:51.840 the Wolsey fire they're saying that fire can't even be managed, 2:16:52.320 --> 2:16:54.680 like water doesn't do anything that fire that fires creatings 2:16:54.720 --> 2:16:57.520 on weather systems. I mean, that's what's happening. These are 2:16:58.000 --> 2:17:00.560 these are fires that are that are creating their own 2:17:01.400 --> 2:17:04.760 life that doesn't exist in a textbook that says, let's 2:17:04.879 --> 2:17:07.960 teach you about fire ecology. These are like outliers to 2:17:08.040 --> 2:17:11.920 the tenth degree. We can't if the guy we're paying 2:17:11.959 --> 2:17:14.520 to have knowledge of how to stop something like well, listen, 2:17:14.720 --> 2:17:18.760 like that doesn't exist in books. Yeah, and I think 2:17:18.800 --> 2:17:20.560 it's hard too. It's like, you know, back to wild life, 2:17:20.560 --> 2:17:23.160 we're dealing with situations where it's like, okay, you have 2:17:23.280 --> 2:17:28.240 a bear, you have people populations increasing at incredible rates. 2:17:28.440 --> 2:17:30.920 Never you know, we're we're doing things to the environment, 2:17:31.040 --> 2:17:33.600 drawing on the environment in ways that have never been 2:17:33.879 --> 2:17:36.320 done before. So you can't. You kind of got to 2:17:36.360 --> 2:17:38.680 hand it to these people who are managers who are 2:17:39.160 --> 2:17:42.800 tasked with interpreting ship that's like totally foreign, and we 2:17:42.959 --> 2:17:44.680 the public like you should do better, and they're like, 2:17:44.720 --> 2:17:46.080 I don't even know what's like, I don't even know 2:17:46.080 --> 2:17:48.880 what this is anymore. It's talking about. But but there's 2:17:48.920 --> 2:17:51.240 so many throughout human history there. I always think about 2:17:51.240 --> 2:17:54.240 it this way. There are things we do we don't 2:17:54.320 --> 2:17:59.760 do now that if you win thirty years into the past, 2:18:01.360 --> 2:18:03.040 they would laugh at you said they don't do that. 2:18:04.240 --> 2:18:07.960 There's there's knowledge we've acquired that's changed our habits so much. 2:18:09.160 --> 2:18:13.520 That's something that your parents might have done you would 2:18:13.560 --> 2:18:16.600 laugh at today, you'd be like, how foolish smoke and 2:18:16.640 --> 2:18:21.160 while pregnant, what do you what like our knowledge base 2:18:21.240 --> 2:18:24.560 in our in our our species, our humanity changes so much. 2:18:24.879 --> 2:18:28.440 What type now? It's rapid with technology and what we 2:18:28.480 --> 2:18:30.400 can learn and what we can do. It's like, what 2:18:30.520 --> 2:18:33.480 are we It's like, we should know that we're ill equipped. 2:18:34.200 --> 2:18:37.640 We should know that we're ill equipped, because all you 2:18:37.720 --> 2:18:39.120 gotta do is look a few years back in the 2:18:39.360 --> 2:18:41.000 in the past and be like, well, we were ill 2:18:41.000 --> 2:18:43.879 equipped back then. You think right now, we gotta figure 2:18:43.879 --> 2:18:47.160 it out. So there's things we're doing right now, and 2:18:47.320 --> 2:18:51.240 fire suppression seems like it's one of them that years 2:18:51.280 --> 2:18:53.240 from now we'll look back and be like, boy, we 2:18:53.360 --> 2:18:56.840 were children when it comes to knowledge about these issues, 2:18:57.160 --> 2:18:58.880 you know, and I think it speaks to this like 2:18:58.959 --> 2:19:02.160 broader environmental we've been of of awareness and carrying and 2:19:02.240 --> 2:19:05.080 reducing impact. And you said everywhere, whether it's at Walmart 2:19:05.520 --> 2:19:09.520 or Target, or somebody's Instagram claiming there an environmentalist, or 2:19:09.600 --> 2:19:11.480 even our daily lives, like we probably wake up to 2:19:11.520 --> 2:19:14.280 a certain degree and say, like, I'm not gonna I'm 2:19:14.280 --> 2:19:16.120 gonna try to do the best I can to reduce 2:19:16.160 --> 2:19:18.840 my impact. And one thing that I talked about the 2:19:18.920 --> 2:19:20.680 other day, you know I made a post about on 2:19:20.720 --> 2:19:23.560 my Instagram, talked about my wife, is you know, you'll 2:19:23.560 --> 2:19:26.360 get shipped for shooting a deer, but you won't get 2:19:26.360 --> 2:19:28.720 shipped for buying that new coat. If we're talking about 2:19:28.720 --> 2:19:32.280 like net impact, everybody in America should go shoot a 2:19:32.280 --> 2:19:35.440 white tail deer because they're doing irreversible harms a lot 2:19:35.480 --> 2:19:40.080 of ecosystems. They're incredibly abundant at zero risk of disappearing 2:19:40.120 --> 2:19:41.959 in a lot of place and and I would say 2:19:42.160 --> 2:19:45.480 the entire country. Yet nobody thinks twice if you go 2:19:45.840 --> 2:19:48.840 to Target and buy a bunch of stuff you probably 2:19:48.879 --> 2:19:53.080 don't need, which is destroying ecosystems or having this tremendous 2:19:53.080 --> 2:19:58.119 negative impact. We're very like I think we're just we're 2:19:58.200 --> 2:20:01.200 children in a lot of ways, like are and I 2:20:01.640 --> 2:20:03.320 was I always try to look at things like, hey, 2:20:04.720 --> 2:20:06.200 twenty years from now, what are we going to look 2:20:06.240 --> 2:20:10.320 back at and say, what the hell was happening over there? Right? 2:20:10.840 --> 2:20:12.959 You know? For now, I think it's like, prescription drugs 2:20:13.080 --> 2:20:17.040 is probably one of them. That's fast food is probably 2:20:17.080 --> 2:20:18.920 one of them. Twenty years from now that hopefully we'll 2:20:18.959 --> 2:20:22.160 be like, whoa boy, we were killing our folks with that, right, 2:20:22.920 --> 2:20:25.480 And in wildlife and hunting realms, there's there's you know, 2:20:25.680 --> 2:20:27.400 there's things we're doing right now twenty year from now 2:20:27.400 --> 2:20:30.720 we're gonna look back at and be like, wow, boy, 2:20:30.840 --> 2:20:35.040 gladly course corrected that one. But that's that's why I 2:20:35.080 --> 2:20:38.000 come back to course correction, because because then I think, okay, well, 2:20:38.760 --> 2:20:41.360 we're always going to be stupid now, like now, we're 2:20:41.360 --> 2:20:43.760 always stupid. But if we can if we can continue 2:20:43.800 --> 2:20:46.600 as as a species to correct the things we're doing 2:20:46.640 --> 2:20:50.480 now we shouldn't be, then we'll always at least be 2:20:50.600 --> 2:20:53.600 somewhat Okay. There's some irreparable things that we can't change, 2:20:53.640 --> 2:20:59.760 but the environment seems like that the rare occurrence where 2:21:01.320 --> 2:21:03.039 it is evident that the thing we're doing right now 2:21:03.120 --> 2:21:07.720 isn't right. You know, when that person was pregnant and 2:21:07.800 --> 2:21:10.600 smoking cigarettes. It took some time for babies to be 2:21:10.720 --> 2:21:13.960 born and for the cause and effect to happen. We 2:21:14.160 --> 2:21:18.000 are seeing the cause and effect in front of our faces. 2:21:19.200 --> 2:21:25.080 We don't have to study those fires. They're right there, like, okay, 2:21:25.120 --> 2:21:28.560 well there they are. Let's just keep doing what we're doing, 2:21:29.120 --> 2:21:31.640 and it will light on fire next year and eighty 2:21:31.720 --> 2:21:34.480 more people will die, thousands more people will die, and 2:21:34.560 --> 2:21:37.520 we'll just keep keep on going. Well, and I think 2:21:37.680 --> 2:21:40.000 you know one of the things, it's Alda Leopold, who 2:21:40.000 --> 2:21:42.320 we've talked about, the author of the Sand County Almanac. 2:21:42.440 --> 2:21:44.800 He said something in along the lines of the trouble 2:21:44.879 --> 2:21:47.200 with an environmental education, as you live alone in a 2:21:47.240 --> 2:21:51.240 world of wounds. And yes, that's true, and it's easy 2:21:51.320 --> 2:21:54.320 to get hung up on like the complexities or the 2:21:54.600 --> 2:21:56.480 things we could be doing better, or the lack of 2:21:56.600 --> 2:21:58.880 force that we have. But we also live in a 2:21:58.959 --> 2:22:01.520 time where information is now have been more readily available, 2:22:02.000 --> 2:22:08.039 where communication is is you know, broaching topics that are uncomfortable, 2:22:08.200 --> 2:22:10.760 and people are thinking outside of the box. You know, 2:22:10.760 --> 2:22:12.360 if you look at our midterm elections, a lot of 2:22:12.440 --> 2:22:17.680 first happened. There are incredible gains in the environmental kind 2:22:17.720 --> 2:22:19.280 of whatever you wanna call it movement. I mean the 2:22:19.320 --> 2:22:21.640 American Prayer Reserve. I was just learning about that. It's 2:22:21.680 --> 2:22:25.200 the biggest contiguous piece of protected short grass perry in 2:22:25.240 --> 2:22:27.840 the country. It's up near the Breakes and and here 2:22:27.879 --> 2:22:31.520 in Montana. I mean, amazing steps are being taken to 2:22:31.720 --> 2:22:36.080 address noise pollution in the ocean, marine debris in the ocean, 2:22:36.680 --> 2:22:39.880 the way that we manage wildlife here in North America. 2:22:39.920 --> 2:22:44.080 I mean there is a robust, healthy, active, energetic group 2:22:44.120 --> 2:22:48.080 of people joining b h A, getting involved in environmental issues, 2:22:48.360 --> 2:22:49.960 learning how to hunt. You know, I'm one of the 2:22:50.080 --> 2:22:52.280 editors at Modern Huntsmen. The number of people who hit 2:22:52.360 --> 2:22:55.440 us up, he say, I never thought I was gonna hunt, 2:22:55.480 --> 2:22:58.520 and I just harvarded harvested my first, dear doctor Turkey, 2:22:58.920 --> 2:23:01.560 and we're like, hey, yeah, regardless of who you voted 2:23:01.600 --> 2:23:04.240 for the fact that you're connecting with the land, developing 2:23:04.280 --> 2:23:07.680 this relationship, putting food on the table, understanding where meat 2:23:07.720 --> 2:23:10.959 comes from. I mean, that's inspiring and it's easy to get. 2:23:11.920 --> 2:23:13.720 You know, turn on the news and be like, holy shit, 2:23:13.920 --> 2:23:16.440 the world is messed up. Then you can pause and 2:23:16.520 --> 2:23:19.200 say it wasn't Raptor Center. They're doing an amazing words 2:23:19.440 --> 2:23:21.800 for sure, Yeah, I think. But even the push pool 2:23:21.840 --> 2:23:24.840 we're talking about, the push pool of should we shoot 2:23:24.840 --> 2:23:27.000 grizzy bears and should we not shoot you eil wars, 2:23:27.080 --> 2:23:30.600 that push pool is causing conversations like this one and 2:23:30.680 --> 2:23:33.039 a lot of conversations like this one about what's good 2:23:33.120 --> 2:23:36.200 for grizzly bears and that's good like that, you know, 2:23:36.240 --> 2:23:38.520 I think as humans were set up that way, you know, 2:23:38.720 --> 2:23:43.600 like grizzly bears hopefully be better off because of this 2:23:43.720 --> 2:23:47.000 debate because most, hopefully most everybody that's in it is 2:23:47.080 --> 2:23:49.480 thinking about what's best for grizzly bears, just happen to 2:23:49.520 --> 2:23:53.680 disagree about what to do. Um And like you said, 2:23:53.680 --> 2:23:56.320 a lot of it's disagreeing on the path to take 2:23:56.400 --> 2:23:59.560 to the same goal. And that's been my biggest one 2:23:59.560 --> 2:24:02.440 of the guesse things I've found over the last year 2:24:02.560 --> 2:24:04.880 or two, you know, really diving into the hunting industry 2:24:04.879 --> 2:24:06.560 and getting involved with b h A and then and 2:24:06.640 --> 2:24:09.800 trying to just like wrap my head around why I 2:24:10.000 --> 2:24:13.240 believe hunting is this medicine. It's like this this thing 2:24:13.400 --> 2:24:15.240 that we can all take to be a little bit 2:24:15.320 --> 2:24:17.800 better right, it has. It has a direct effect on 2:24:17.879 --> 2:24:22.400 our world, but everything does. And so living in that 2:24:23.040 --> 2:24:28.440 thought process, hunting is is this enriching pill you can 2:24:28.520 --> 2:24:31.680 take to bring you a little bit closer to the 2:24:31.800 --> 2:24:35.560 things you need to be close to nature. Animals are environment, 2:24:36.360 --> 2:24:39.880 your skills, all that ship and so that's at some 2:24:40.000 --> 2:24:45.720 point it's it's how do we go from a how 2:24:45.760 --> 2:24:47.960 do we go from a moment where we're standing back 2:24:48.000 --> 2:24:51.360 to back and we both agree with something, and we 2:24:51.520 --> 2:24:53.120 and then we start walking away from each other, and 2:24:53.200 --> 2:24:55.400 by the time we turn around to have the conversation, 2:24:56.480 --> 2:24:58.640 all we can do is argue. I was like, dude, 2:24:59.080 --> 2:25:01.720 everybody cares about wildlife. That's the reason our model, That's 2:25:01.760 --> 2:25:04.199 the one reason I believe our modelogue conservation works because 2:25:04.280 --> 2:25:08.960 everybody cares about wildlife. And I think it's I think 2:25:09.040 --> 2:25:10.600 you bring up a good point. And I also think 2:25:10.640 --> 2:25:14.879 that more people are stopping halfway and saying, wait a second, 2:25:15.640 --> 2:25:17.280 we actually have a lot more in common than you'd 2:25:17.320 --> 2:25:20.360 like to believe, or that the public is telling us. 2:25:20.400 --> 2:25:24.840 We do as you know, by on paper, I should 2:25:24.840 --> 2:25:27.360 be very different than you. But when we sit down, 2:25:27.640 --> 2:25:30.080 maybe we see things in different lights. But I think 2:25:30.320 --> 2:25:32.840 from an ideological perspective, we have a lot of the same. 2:25:34.080 --> 2:25:36.560 That really matters at the end of the day, because 2:25:36.680 --> 2:25:39.160 if if if you could agree, if if you and 2:25:39.280 --> 2:25:43.360 I could agree that we're not gonna be at the 2:25:43.400 --> 2:25:45.920 same spot on everything, but we're trying to get to 2:25:45.959 --> 2:25:49.400 the same goal, then every interaction we have is positive, right, 2:25:49.720 --> 2:25:52.360 even if we're yelling at each other. They were like, fucky, 2:25:53.879 --> 2:25:59.400 that's before the recordings. Yeah yeah, yeah, um yeah, even 2:25:59.440 --> 2:26:03.080 if we're are doing even if what we could say, hey, look, 2:26:03.240 --> 2:26:07.879 let's before we start. We want grizzly bears to be healthy, thrive, 2:26:08.720 --> 2:26:11.080 and to be doing their thing. Okay, good, great, great, 2:26:11.160 --> 2:26:15.520 let's go right, nothing you can do from that point forward, 2:26:15.560 --> 2:26:19.320 in my opinion, would would would be negative. And I 2:26:19.360 --> 2:26:22.520 think your point about like having space for discussion is huge, 2:26:22.600 --> 2:26:25.120 And that's you know, I'm doing some workover at SITCO 2:26:25.240 --> 2:26:29.320 next door, and we have this ecosystem thinking grant that 2:26:29.440 --> 2:26:31.960 we're putting together in all these different measures that I 2:26:32.040 --> 2:26:34.000 think some people would be surprised by. But it's like no, no, no, 2:26:34.120 --> 2:26:36.360 We're in the business of hunting, and we're in the 2:26:36.360 --> 2:26:39.960 business of the outdoors and the environment and those three 2:26:40.080 --> 2:26:43.480 things hinge upon the health of our ecosystems. So if 2:26:43.520 --> 2:26:47.080 we're not putting that ecosystem thinking hat on, then we're 2:26:47.120 --> 2:26:51.080 not doing the resources and these systems that we care 2:26:51.120 --> 2:26:53.600 about justice. And that's what you guys do so well 2:26:53.640 --> 2:26:56.320 over here is like, let's create a space for conversations 2:26:56.680 --> 2:26:59.080 that shanna light on what we can do better or 2:26:59.160 --> 2:27:03.400 what we're doing well that benefits the resources that we 2:27:03.760 --> 2:27:06.400 identify with. Yeah. I mean, I'm wearing a hoodie right 2:27:06.400 --> 2:27:09.200 now as this public landowner, like I'm into that. I 2:27:09.280 --> 2:27:11.600 want people to wear these shirts. It's over his ghostly 2:27:11.600 --> 2:27:14.720 bar t shirts. Yeah, well that's that's a tank top, sir, 2:27:15.879 --> 2:27:21.320 with sequences. Um, and now I'm thinking about me wearing 2:27:21.320 --> 2:27:25.680 a jazz tanks out. Thanks. Bro can make serious points 2:27:26.160 --> 2:27:31.680 that environment. But yeah, I think like this publicly and ownything. 2:27:32.040 --> 2:27:36.280 I always come back to that. I think, yes, I 2:27:36.400 --> 2:27:40.160 want public lands, Yes, of course I do. It's too 2:27:40.240 --> 2:27:43.240 easy to just want that. Is not that I just 2:27:43.280 --> 2:27:47.520 want public lands, is that I want healthy public lands 2:27:47.520 --> 2:27:50.840 that contribute to our world. I just don't want to 2:27:50.879 --> 2:27:53.840 be It's I'm not arguing for the right to go somewhere. Really, 2:27:53.879 --> 2:27:56.080 when I'm talking about public lands. I'm not arguing for 2:27:56.200 --> 2:27:58.960 the right to go on public lands. I want that. 2:28:00.280 --> 2:28:03.280 I'm arguing for the right to have them so we 2:28:03.320 --> 2:28:06.000 can keep them healthy and so they contribute to our world, 2:28:06.560 --> 2:28:11.280 like healthy habitat, healthy wildlife populations. That's what I'm at 2:28:11.280 --> 2:28:13.520 they're doing. I'm not saying I want it so I 2:28:13.600 --> 2:28:15.200 can do whatever I want on it. No, I'm saying 2:28:15.240 --> 2:28:17.240 I want it so we can make it better and 2:28:17.360 --> 2:28:20.840 make us all better. That's the point of wearing a 2:28:20.879 --> 2:28:23.480 shirt like this. And that's where I come back to, like, 2:28:24.120 --> 2:28:26.520 don't you get in this boat with me if you 2:28:26.600 --> 2:28:29.040 don't want that to if you just want public land 2:28:29.120 --> 2:28:30.760 so you can cut roads through them and ride around 2:28:30.760 --> 2:28:32.640 and shoot you off an a TV, like, that's not 2:28:32.760 --> 2:28:35.320 what I'm talking about. And what if somebody went up 2:28:35.360 --> 2:28:38.120 to you and said, you're a public landowner and I'm 2:28:38.120 --> 2:28:39.760 gonna tell you can't do what you want to do 2:28:39.959 --> 2:28:42.960 because of these three reasons. We can do that over there, fine. 2:28:43.480 --> 2:28:45.880 And I think that's a big thing too, because there 2:28:46.000 --> 2:28:49.720 are things that happen, you know, like you're into off 2:28:49.840 --> 2:28:53.199 roading and somebody says, well, that's critical habitat for this tortoise, 2:28:53.760 --> 2:28:55.800 and like well, screw the tortoise. I've never seen one. 2:28:55.840 --> 2:28:57.680 I drove my truck out there all the time. I think, 2:28:57.720 --> 2:29:00.760 you get up. People get hung up in these these 2:29:01.080 --> 2:29:04.440 purported threats on their ability to do what they want 2:29:04.480 --> 2:29:07.680 on public land. And the beautiful thing about public land 2:29:07.720 --> 2:29:11.320 is it's a collective resource. And if somebody is saying 2:29:12.160 --> 2:29:13.960 I get off cutting off you, you know, by cutting 2:29:14.000 --> 2:29:16.720 off huge cutting up huge trees, and somebody says, well, 2:29:16.760 --> 2:29:19.400 you can't do that. We have this beautiful suite of 2:29:19.440 --> 2:29:21.200 checks and balances. Were like, if you do want to 2:29:21.240 --> 2:29:23.000 go cut down trees, you can go to a beauticual 2:29:23.040 --> 2:29:26.240 force and cut down big trees. You can't do it here, 2:29:27.000 --> 2:29:29.320 you know. And I think that that that's another big thing. 2:29:29.360 --> 2:29:31.160 It's not a it's not a threat in your ability 2:29:31.200 --> 2:29:33.800 to be a public land owner. Public land is owned 2:29:33.800 --> 2:29:37.160 by the collective, which means everybody gets a vote. And 2:29:37.200 --> 2:29:39.840 there's a few people that say, are these votes done 2:29:40.080 --> 2:29:43.200 in a in a an appropriate way and are they 2:29:43.280 --> 2:29:46.640 being you know, used and leaned upon in an effective way? 2:29:47.280 --> 2:29:49.280 And and that's the beautiful thing, right that. Yeah, that 2:29:49.360 --> 2:29:52.720 that National Monument thing was a great example of that. 2:29:53.320 --> 2:29:56.120 Both sides got that's so wrong. That couldn't be It 2:29:56.200 --> 2:29:58.720 could be worse. One s I was like, well, we're 2:29:58.800 --> 2:30:01.720 protecting the land and the other side's like we're given 2:30:01.760 --> 2:30:05.640 access to the people. And wait, you're both kind of 2:30:05.680 --> 2:30:09.039 being assholes around this one. Because if we really wanted, 2:30:09.080 --> 2:30:11.880 like if we really broke it down, throw out the 2:30:11.920 --> 2:30:16.800 Antiquities Act, who cares it was past three? Write something new, 2:30:18.000 --> 2:30:22.560 Write something new that says protecting this ecosystem, the critical 2:30:22.640 --> 2:30:26.600 habitat um, the important artifacts that are there. Let's do 2:30:26.760 --> 2:30:30.080 that first, right, Okay, first, check that off. Got it. 2:30:30.520 --> 2:30:33.160 That's we can all agree we need those things. And 2:30:33.200 --> 2:30:34.480 even if you don't, if you don't agree that we 2:30:34.520 --> 2:30:37.040 need those things, I don't know what to do with you, 2:30:38.040 --> 2:30:41.640 Like go look at the fires or go like I 2:30:41.680 --> 2:30:43.920 just don't know what to do with you. Kindly leave. 2:30:44.240 --> 2:30:46.879 If you can't agree that we need habitat for animals 2:30:47.240 --> 2:30:50.440 and we need a healthy ecosystem, and if it's it's 2:30:50.520 --> 2:30:54.520 a historic artifact for human humankind or some some culture 2:30:54.560 --> 2:30:57.640 and we need to protect it, boy, we're gonna like 2:30:58.040 --> 2:30:59.680 you're just not going to be in this conversation. We 2:30:59.760 --> 2:31:02.360 need little sound design button with Will Ferrell. Same. Kindly leave, 2:31:02.480 --> 2:31:06.160 kindly leave. So let's say say like, let's let's say 2:31:06.160 --> 2:31:07.680 we're all still in the room when I say that 2:31:07.800 --> 2:31:10.480 to you. So, okay, good, we got that. What do 2:31:10.560 --> 2:31:12.960 we need to do to get to that? Okay, let's 2:31:12.959 --> 2:31:15.160 figure that out. That's not an easy one, but we'll 2:31:15.200 --> 2:31:19.160 figure that out next. We want we do not want 2:31:20.560 --> 2:31:25.760 to limit people's access to that area for any reasons 2:31:25.800 --> 2:31:29.440 other than the first check. Right, So we want roads cut, 2:31:29.600 --> 2:31:32.880 We want um places for people to go and view 2:31:32.959 --> 2:31:38.000 wildlife and and hike and hunt and uh perfect, great, 2:31:38.560 --> 2:31:43.200 that's second check. Like we keep inverting this ship all 2:31:43.440 --> 2:31:46.720 and mixing it all up and be like step one done, 2:31:46.840 --> 2:31:51.120 Step two done. Everybody happy, Great, go see you like, 2:31:51.440 --> 2:31:53.480 go out and run around. We don't care. But but 2:31:53.640 --> 2:31:56.880 you can't. You can't do like the most important thing 2:31:57.400 --> 2:31:59.600 and the second most important thing have to stay one 2:31:59.680 --> 2:32:02.720 and two because if you start flipping around, then they 2:32:02.720 --> 2:32:05.039 start to hurt each other. Right, it's like uranium mind check, 2:32:05.520 --> 2:32:09.240 ecosystem check. Yeah, they don't know. The second goes first, 2:32:11.360 --> 2:32:13.720 like is that uranium? Like, okay, do we have a 2:32:13.800 --> 2:32:16.840 healthy ecosystem? How do we define that? Like that's a 2:32:16.920 --> 2:32:20.680 really tough one. But then once that's done, then you 2:32:20.760 --> 2:32:22.600 can have your fucking ranium on all you want. I 2:32:22.760 --> 2:32:26.000 love Uranie's one of my favorite so one of my activities. 2:32:26.920 --> 2:32:29.520 I've been minding uranium since I was a kid. But 2:32:30.200 --> 2:32:33.560 it's like, there has to be a better way to 2:32:33.720 --> 2:32:38.920 set those checks and balances because we certainly I haven't 2:32:39.080 --> 2:32:42.240 strived to do that. We've strived to to be right. 2:32:42.600 --> 2:32:45.640 You know when one of the like the precedents that 2:32:46.000 --> 2:32:48.879 really explains what we're talking about here was back during 2:32:48.879 --> 2:32:53.960 the gold rush time, back before we had conflicting uh 2:32:54.680 --> 2:32:58.120 you know groups where it was miners against ranchers or 2:32:58.280 --> 2:33:02.200 farmers against loggers, there was a river system in California 2:33:02.280 --> 2:33:07.560 where gold mining was being done in such a blindly 2:33:08.200 --> 2:33:11.959 horrific way, a destructive way. Setent was filling up these 2:33:12.040 --> 2:33:16.280 rivers and coming down stream and destroying crop lands and 2:33:16.320 --> 2:33:19.440 along the way, making these huge levees that flooded these 2:33:19.480 --> 2:33:21.760 mining towns. So that burst and flood these mining towns. 2:33:22.200 --> 2:33:24.119 And that was the first time in our country's history 2:33:24.200 --> 2:33:26.520 where that I know of, I know it was a 2:33:26.600 --> 2:33:28.560 it was a kind of a landmark case in California 2:33:28.959 --> 2:33:32.160 where the government was tasked was saying, okay, well, if 2:33:32.720 --> 2:33:34.840 this group of people is looking at this landscape as 2:33:34.879 --> 2:33:38.200 a resource for trees or gold, and this group of 2:33:38.240 --> 2:33:41.200 people looking at this landscape as a resource for crops, 2:33:41.640 --> 2:33:43.080 and these people in the middle are just trying to 2:33:43.160 --> 2:33:45.920 live there, but they're caught in the crossfire, how do 2:33:46.120 --> 2:33:50.800 we manage with all constituents in mind. It's a challenging thing, 2:33:50.879 --> 2:33:53.160 right because you look at bears ears and it's it's 2:33:53.800 --> 2:33:56.240 it's a it's a homeland of people who were here 2:33:56.320 --> 2:33:58.240 long before us, who got short end of the stick. 2:33:58.640 --> 2:34:03.040 It's an ecosystem that's the Danes, wildlife, plants, and animals. 2:34:03.720 --> 2:34:06.640 It's a resource that private enterprise would love to mind 2:34:06.720 --> 2:34:10.720 and extract, and it's just a place the hike for others. 2:34:11.320 --> 2:34:13.680 And I think your point is brilliant because we've got 2:34:13.760 --> 2:34:16.240 to say, like, what is the most important thing here, 2:34:16.280 --> 2:34:19.640 and that is a functioning, healthy ecosystem that provides cleanary, 2:34:19.680 --> 2:34:23.160 clean water, and everything else a secondary or tertiary. And 2:34:23.240 --> 2:34:25.760 it's okay to have secondary tertiary things that are also 2:34:25.840 --> 2:34:29.800 important in that. I don't hate roads because I hate 2:34:29.800 --> 2:34:32.480 when people arguing like a wilderness is the only way. No, 2:34:32.840 --> 2:34:36.879 it's not the only way. Roads through through public playing areas, 2:34:36.959 --> 2:34:40.040 roads through wilderness. Boy, I'm fine with it. You can 2:34:40.080 --> 2:34:44.680 take your Segway on them. I love my Segway drove 2:34:44.720 --> 2:34:51.320 off a cliff um. But yeah, I mean, I think 2:34:52.080 --> 2:34:56.320 I think the priority is where I find the most problem. 2:34:57.160 --> 2:34:59.800 And that's what I love. You know about the hunting thing, because, 2:35:00.280 --> 2:35:02.800 honest to God, ten years ago, if somebody had said 2:35:02.840 --> 2:35:05.240 you're gonna be in the hunting space, you're gonna be 2:35:05.320 --> 2:35:08.320 working with brands you know that identifies hunting brands. You're 2:35:08.320 --> 2:35:10.200 gonna be working with people and friends with people who 2:35:10.240 --> 2:35:13.200 are hunters. Grow having grown up hunting. My dad was 2:35:13.240 --> 2:35:14.640 on the board of California. Try to grew up in 2:35:14.680 --> 2:35:20.600 a sportsman's house. But there's something awesome about this space 2:35:20.680 --> 2:35:24.960 hunting and fishing because by default, you give a ship 2:35:25.040 --> 2:35:28.119 about animals, and you give a shit about the systems 2:35:28.160 --> 2:35:30.160 that support you know, you can't help it, you can't 2:35:30.200 --> 2:35:36.119 help it. Without those you're identifying, interest doesn't exist hunting 2:35:36.200 --> 2:35:38.920 or fishing. And it's kind of like being an ecologist 2:35:39.000 --> 2:35:42.879 with like a potential and little cherry on top, which 2:35:42.920 --> 2:35:44.920 could be your deer or your duck or your trout. 2:35:45.440 --> 2:35:48.000 And I love that and it it's it's awesome because 2:35:48.040 --> 2:35:51.320 it gives us common ground to work from where we 2:35:51.400 --> 2:35:53.480 can say you and I both want to kill deer, 2:35:53.920 --> 2:35:55.520 but at the end of the day, we need to 2:35:55.560 --> 2:35:57.000 focus on how to get to that place where we 2:35:57.040 --> 2:36:00.160 have dear to kill or dear to watch, because we 2:36:00.240 --> 2:36:01.440 both know we spent a lot of time in a 2:36:01.480 --> 2:36:03.840 tree or out in the woods watching animals and not 2:36:03.959 --> 2:36:06.560 ever fire narrow a bullet. Yeah, well, I think like 2:36:06.680 --> 2:36:09.760 the one of the one of the things I want 2:36:09.800 --> 2:36:11.720 to have a segment about this. It's called like what bothers? 2:36:12.040 --> 2:36:14.760 What's bothering me? Like maybe I have like a little 2:36:14.920 --> 2:36:18.000 like what's grinding my gear? Is really like that, But 2:36:18.440 --> 2:36:20.000 one of the things that bothers me is around what 2:36:20.080 --> 2:36:22.440 you just said. Right. So our value stem and hunting 2:36:22.520 --> 2:36:26.560 is is it's rhetorical in nature in a lot of ways, 2:36:26.600 --> 2:36:30.119 but it's it's very valuable. Like it it helps the things, 2:36:31.680 --> 2:36:33.920 the animals that are involved in that value system. Like 2:36:34.040 --> 2:36:38.720 it's it's clear that the value hunting provides helps animals 2:36:39.440 --> 2:36:44.400 almost always in in the umbrella sense of a population. 2:36:44.480 --> 2:36:46.120 It may not help that single animal, I guess got 2:36:46.200 --> 2:36:49.640 shot and eaten, but it helps the greater whole. And 2:36:49.720 --> 2:36:51.440 I think that's you know, as a human, that's kind 2:36:51.480 --> 2:36:54.320 of what I'm into. Okay, well it might it might 2:36:54.400 --> 2:36:57.400 not help me today, but does it help us always? 2:36:58.000 --> 2:37:01.520 So that's good. So one of things that bothers me is, 2:37:01.920 --> 2:37:05.680 let's talk about this in a podcast previous with Bryan Callahan, 2:37:07.000 --> 2:37:10.720 is that like the outfitting industry, and I would say, 2:37:10.920 --> 2:37:13.320 you know, groups like I'll call him out by name, 2:37:13.360 --> 2:37:17.080 fuck it s C, I's Far Club International. I got 2:37:17.160 --> 2:37:21.680 problem with you guys. Okay, I think our value system 2:37:22.680 --> 2:37:25.760 is infallible. I believe that to be true, but I 2:37:25.840 --> 2:37:29.000 believe it's being hijacked by people that are just using 2:37:29.080 --> 2:37:32.720 it as an excuse to do what they want. And 2:37:32.840 --> 2:37:36.480 that bothers me. I think it's being hijacked by outfitters 2:37:36.520 --> 2:37:39.000 that are making money from people that are using it. 2:37:39.800 --> 2:37:43.039 And the users are the clients that are traveling across 2:37:43.080 --> 2:37:46.080 the world, are traveling across this country and using that 2:37:46.200 --> 2:37:48.800 value systems excuse to do things they ought not to 2:37:48.879 --> 2:37:54.960 be doing, or or using it as reasoning that they 2:37:54.959 --> 2:37:59.359 don't truly believe. And I, you know, I will say, honestly, 2:37:59.440 --> 2:38:03.440 I have thought some days, you know, before I was able, 2:38:03.640 --> 2:38:05.880 probably before I had a podcast, and this is one 2:38:05.920 --> 2:38:07.840 of the reasons I have a podcast, is because I 2:38:07.920 --> 2:38:12.520 got so dejected by that and so pissed by that 2:38:14.360 --> 2:38:17.279 that I thought, you know, maybe I'm just gonna stop hunting, 2:38:19.560 --> 2:38:21.640 you know, And then pretty quickly I'm like, no, no, no, 2:38:21.840 --> 2:38:24.879 I'm not gonna let it. That's crazy talk. This sake 2:38:25.000 --> 2:38:28.600 is delicious. But yeah, but but I think, like I've 2:38:28.640 --> 2:38:31.400 had those moments where it's like me, this is exhausting, 2:38:32.080 --> 2:38:35.560 Like here's here's something I know to be, you know, 2:38:35.800 --> 2:38:38.000 as infallible as it can be, as something can get 2:38:38.360 --> 2:38:43.000 that's this broad being used by people that don't believe 2:38:43.400 --> 2:38:46.760 in it and caring is exhausting. Yeah, like you pointed out, 2:38:46.840 --> 2:38:49.800 it's easy to be on one end of the spectrum. 2:38:50.440 --> 2:38:53.440 It's easy to look at the media of those people 2:38:53.600 --> 2:38:55.960 who are doing things they ought not to be doing 2:38:56.879 --> 2:39:01.160 and taking that as a wholesale representation of the of 2:39:01.280 --> 2:39:05.160 the greater population or the greater community. Yeah, go go 2:39:05.440 --> 2:39:10.280 to Yeah, I'm it's not my nature to call people out, 2:39:10.320 --> 2:39:12.600 but go to this far Clip International Convention. I've been 2:39:12.640 --> 2:39:14.640 there for the last five years and there's a lot 2:39:14.680 --> 2:39:17.720 of really good stuff happening there. I mean lots of 2:39:17.879 --> 2:39:20.560 really good lots of money going and conservation. I mean 2:39:20.720 --> 2:39:23.840 just just a lot of immense and wonderful things happening there. 2:39:24.200 --> 2:39:28.880 But there is also there's an example. There was a 2:39:28.920 --> 2:39:33.959 booth at across from the booth I was at last year, 2:39:34.120 --> 2:39:37.400 and that booth had a sign this is an out 2:39:37.480 --> 2:39:39.800 there I believe in South Africa, not the matters where 2:39:39.800 --> 2:39:43.160 they're coming from. And it was like one of those 2:39:43.240 --> 2:39:45.800 signs you might see out in front of bail bonds 2:39:47.120 --> 2:39:49.480 place or maybe like get your money today type of 2:39:51.120 --> 2:39:55.199 cash or paychecks. It was like, I just want everybody 2:39:55.240 --> 2:39:56.840 to just think about what this sign looks like. It 2:39:56.920 --> 2:39:59.680 was it had like a gray background, but it had 2:40:00.000 --> 2:40:03.080 florescent lights blinking all around the outside and on the 2:40:03.160 --> 2:40:08.800 inside they had written in fluorescent pink and yellow, ah, 2:40:09.879 --> 2:40:14.280 come for an elephant, fifteen thousand dollars get a free impaula. 2:40:17.120 --> 2:40:18.640 And I had to spend the whole week looking at 2:40:18.680 --> 2:40:21.120 that sign, and that sign got like burned into my 2:40:21.200 --> 2:40:26.040 retinas to the point where I was like, is this person, wait, 2:40:26.760 --> 2:40:31.160 is this person selling an animal? Like It's like first 2:40:31.200 --> 2:40:35.200 I thought maybe everybody got a Chevy impaula, which was 2:40:35.480 --> 2:40:36.879 what I thought how are you going to get those 2:40:36.879 --> 2:40:39.280 cars back to America? And you're thinking I would like 2:40:39.360 --> 2:40:41.320 to Chevy. I was like, I would maybe go an 2:40:41.400 --> 2:40:43.440 elephant hunt because that's almost like a deal because Chevy 2:40:43.480 --> 2:40:46.720 and Polos are worth more than fift k leather seats? 2:40:46.800 --> 2:40:49.200 How do I get it back to America? But then 2:40:49.280 --> 2:40:53.560 I was like, these people, I'm making an assumption here, 2:40:54.080 --> 2:40:58.360 but it's an educated one that the people that were 2:40:58.440 --> 2:41:00.120 running that booth. If they were pulled out of that 2:41:00.240 --> 2:41:03.320 scenario and somebody ran up to him, we're like, why 2:41:03.360 --> 2:41:04.880 do you do what you do? You shouldn't be killing 2:41:04.920 --> 2:41:07.920 those impolos and selling them like they're you know, cars, 2:41:08.160 --> 2:41:10.880 use cars. That person would be like, well, let me 2:41:10.920 --> 2:41:15.880 tell you about the value system of hunting, because now 2:41:15.920 --> 2:41:21.000 I don't have this sign right next to me. Let 2:41:21.040 --> 2:41:22.480 me tell you about the value system. Let me tell 2:41:22.480 --> 2:41:25.240 you why this allows her to be more of these animals. 2:41:26.560 --> 2:41:31.080 And that's where I'm like, boy, I can't get with that. 2:41:31.959 --> 2:41:37.320 I can't get with it. That's I'm sorry, but don't 2:41:37.440 --> 2:41:39.960 use don't use this wonderful thing that we've got to 2:41:40.200 --> 2:41:43.320 excuse your selling an ampollo like it's you know, a 2:41:43.440 --> 2:41:47.920 gift bag, just don't do it. And I think that's 2:41:49.120 --> 2:41:52.520 you know, that's a representation of those outliers. That's a 2:41:52.560 --> 2:41:57.520 representation of people who were not hunting with ant we're 2:41:57.520 --> 2:42:00.480 not inviting to Thanksgiving dinner. Yeah, but you you'll see 2:42:00.560 --> 2:42:03.000 like all of these and I'm sure you've lost all that. 2:42:03.040 --> 2:42:05.000 I can't think of the exact names of the documentaries, 2:42:05.040 --> 2:42:08.720 but normally, as an anti hunting documentary on killing rhinos, 2:42:08.959 --> 2:42:11.760 some British dude goes to Sei and walks around like, 2:42:12.080 --> 2:42:14.520 hell and look at this hand and there's like just 2:42:14.760 --> 2:42:19.000 some you know, like yeah, yeah, Trophy, there's the perfect example. 2:42:19.160 --> 2:42:21.480 And they walk around there like this is something like 2:42:21.640 --> 2:42:26.120 Alien World where a bunch of people, um go up 2:42:26.160 --> 2:42:28.160 to a booth and say, oh, that's a giant animal. 2:42:28.240 --> 2:42:31.680 Maybe I'll want to pay fifty, yeah, or ninety or 2:42:32.400 --> 2:42:37.879 or whatever, and then that British dude um in trophy. 2:42:38.920 --> 2:42:42.120 I think those it was a couple I believe, eventually 2:42:42.160 --> 2:42:43.880 said like, hey, we get now that we were over 2:42:43.920 --> 2:42:45.680 there and we did it, we get what hunting brings 2:42:45.720 --> 2:42:48.480 to the table. But but what they never did get, 2:42:48.840 --> 2:42:51.440 in my opinion from watching the film, is how you 2:42:51.520 --> 2:42:54.640 could go to a place like that and connect that 2:42:54.760 --> 2:42:58.360 with the value system on the ground in Africa or 2:42:58.480 --> 2:43:01.800 on the ground in America, like that that thing didn't 2:43:01.840 --> 2:43:06.160 represent the good totally. And I also think Africa's a 2:43:06.160 --> 2:43:08.200 slippery slope. You know, it's something that we get talked to, 2:43:08.360 --> 2:43:10.800 you know, their topics that arise with the modern huntsman. 2:43:11.200 --> 2:43:13.400 And I when people say Africa, I'm like, hey, um, 2:43:13.680 --> 2:43:15.320 I'll be in the other room me too, you know, 2:43:15.560 --> 2:43:17.280 like it's not something I'm familiar with. I'm not an 2:43:17.320 --> 2:43:20.000 expert in it. It's too it's complicated. That's why it's 2:43:20.120 --> 2:43:23.160 easy for to be called out totally. And I think 2:43:24.640 --> 2:43:30.120 the representative narrative in hunting in America in November is 2:43:30.160 --> 2:43:33.360 white tail honey, which is very different than shooting an elephant. 2:43:33.640 --> 2:43:36.880 And if people watched me in my backyard hunting my 2:43:36.959 --> 2:43:39.520 white tailed dough, which I was super fired up on 2:43:39.560 --> 2:43:42.000 because it's going to be great food, and I sat 2:43:42.160 --> 2:43:44.960 for days and days and days and picked right one 2:43:45.000 --> 2:43:46.880 and felt like that was a choice and an animal 2:43:47.000 --> 2:43:50.920 at harvest personally, regardless of what other people would say, 2:43:51.240 --> 2:43:53.680 I felt good about that. And that's what a lot 2:43:53.680 --> 2:43:56.879 of people are dealing with. People are putting themselves outside 2:43:57.320 --> 2:44:00.440 and making a conscious decision to harvest to particular animal 2:44:00.879 --> 2:44:04.040 for reasons that are probably pretty darn good, you know. 2:44:04.280 --> 2:44:07.360 And it's not I'm here's eight grand. It's not a 2:44:07.760 --> 2:44:12.880 let me play games with a relatively stable, developing country 2:44:12.959 --> 2:44:15.840 and in a continant and nothing about. It's a I'm 2:44:15.840 --> 2:44:18.879 gonna go in my backyard or to next day over, 2:44:19.360 --> 2:44:22.720 meet up with some guys who are probably even keeled 2:44:23.040 --> 2:44:26.000 and harvest an animal that there's an abundance of. And 2:44:26.200 --> 2:44:29.640 that's representative hunting in America November. But that's not what 2:44:29.800 --> 2:44:32.920 people in Portland, San Francisco, or people watching Trophy are scene. 2:44:33.520 --> 2:44:36.640 They're not being presented that purposefully because it's easy. But 2:44:36.760 --> 2:44:39.400 it's also real. It's not fake, it's not being made up. 2:44:40.560 --> 2:44:42.960 And so for me, it's like, yeah, here's here's these 2:44:43.040 --> 2:44:48.000 two very different and it spins right back to grizzly bears. Man, 2:44:48.160 --> 2:44:50.920 it spins right back to them, because like I said, 2:44:50.959 --> 2:44:57.000 I don't, I don't uh I would shoot a grizzly bear. 2:44:57.160 --> 2:44:59.840 I'm not saying I wouldn't, but I don't. As I 2:45:00.000 --> 2:45:01.600 sit in this chair field the need to do it 2:45:02.879 --> 2:45:07.240 um and if I met someone who truly believed that 2:45:07.640 --> 2:45:09.760 it was their duty as a hunter to take part 2:45:09.840 --> 2:45:14.600 in the system of conservation, whereas they went out and 2:45:14.720 --> 2:45:16.879 had a great experience that enrisk their lives and they 2:45:16.959 --> 2:45:19.720 killed a grizzly bear. And I'm with that all day long. 2:45:20.640 --> 2:45:24.560 But what I'm not with there's somebody who wants to 2:45:25.720 --> 2:45:28.280 wants it for other reasons that we could we listen 2:45:28.320 --> 2:45:29.960 all days. It's not no need to hammer on that. 2:45:30.120 --> 2:45:32.760 But I'm not with that. We're just not with it. 2:45:34.320 --> 2:45:37.760 And so I hope generationally we can start to clearly 2:45:37.840 --> 2:45:39.680 define what that is and when it's not. And I 2:45:39.760 --> 2:45:43.080 think that's I think if we do that, then, um, 2:45:44.320 --> 2:45:47.160 anybody that's an animal rights activist or an anti hunter 2:45:47.240 --> 2:45:51.040 will lose the ability to to change the rules based 2:45:51.120 --> 2:45:54.640 on that, because they certainly didn't. British Columbia, you know, 2:45:54.879 --> 2:45:57.800 they changed the rules. They tried, they changed the rules 2:45:57.840 --> 2:45:59.640 because they knew they were people out there that were 2:45:59.640 --> 2:46:05.000 shooting the bears just to shoot the bears. Which sucks. Boy, 2:46:05.080 --> 2:46:09.640 that sucks for the bears and for everyone. Um, but 2:46:09.800 --> 2:46:12.840 they weren't wrong. There were people out there shooting the 2:46:12.879 --> 2:46:14.920 bears just to shoot the bears. And it's like we 2:46:15.000 --> 2:46:19.640 talked about you know, if if the hunting community didn't, 2:46:21.800 --> 2:46:26.560 I think so aggressively published photos that were less than 2:46:26.640 --> 2:46:31.600 thoughtful on the internet, representing our community industry at large, 2:46:32.440 --> 2:46:36.880 we'd have a better time. And if the alternative was 2:46:37.320 --> 2:46:40.200 that thoughtful image of the dinner you're prepared or the 2:46:40.320 --> 2:46:43.240 experience that you were after, because we all know that 2:46:43.440 --> 2:46:46.960 hunting is not about killing something every day, because one 2:46:47.040 --> 2:46:52.480 that's not possible, not legal, and not realistic. You know, 2:46:52.760 --> 2:46:56.120 like the narrative that that the public would then be 2:46:57.160 --> 2:47:01.560 presented with is the one of drinking coffee, the drive, 2:47:01.680 --> 2:47:05.360 the flight, the adventure of the food, the camaraderie, the sunrise, 2:47:05.400 --> 2:47:07.880 the sunset, all the cool ship you see. You know, 2:47:08.160 --> 2:47:10.160 that's when we get out and hunt. You know. It's 2:47:10.200 --> 2:47:12.760 like I harvested my dough, and yes, it was an 2:47:12.760 --> 2:47:15.080 awesome experience sitting in my tree for all those days. 2:47:15.600 --> 2:47:18.040 But I brought some of that meat to my father 2:47:18.120 --> 2:47:21.040 in law's birthday and I was like, here's some meat 2:47:21.200 --> 2:47:23.320 that I worked my ass off for and I'm going 2:47:23.360 --> 2:47:25.080 to cook at the best I can, even I suck 2:47:25.120 --> 2:47:27.720 a cooking. My wife's gonna help me, and we're gonna 2:47:27.720 --> 2:47:29.280 serve this up. And I'm gonna be proud and know 2:47:29.480 --> 2:47:32.960 that that was a sustainable, awesome contribution to our dinner. 2:47:33.480 --> 2:47:37.480 I felt freaking good boy. And I think in general 2:47:37.720 --> 2:47:41.320 nobody disagrees with that. I think if you were pull 2:47:41.360 --> 2:47:45.400 the country, you get about a nine to five. And 2:47:45.440 --> 2:47:47.840 I wish that was the ship that ends up in 2:47:47.879 --> 2:47:51.680 the headlines where it was like like pseudo hippie hunter 2:47:51.800 --> 2:47:54.160 trails post harvest's dough and feeds it to his father 2:47:54.240 --> 2:47:56.880 in law, Like that should be the Actually, yeah, I 2:47:56.920 --> 2:47:58.720 think like they like we can all go back to 2:47:58.840 --> 2:48:01.120 like all these I think the hunting industry. What's funny 2:48:01.680 --> 2:48:04.400 that I've realized this is the last couple of controversies 2:48:04.480 --> 2:48:08.040 around air quotes, around you know, people shooting animals in 2:48:08.120 --> 2:48:12.160 different places, and the guy that shot the baboons or 2:48:12.200 --> 2:48:14.640 the young lady in Scotland that shot the feral goats. 2:48:17.200 --> 2:48:20.119 I think hunting is just over that, Like the hunting 2:48:20.120 --> 2:48:23.360 community is over over that conversation. And and hopefully it's 2:48:23.400 --> 2:48:26.920 because we know that's just it's not worth our time. 2:48:27.360 --> 2:48:29.760 When we see that stuff and we're like that's freaking crazy, 2:48:30.080 --> 2:48:31.840 like I want to have done that. We and when 2:48:31.920 --> 2:48:33.840 we disagree with it, and so it ends up being 2:48:33.920 --> 2:48:36.240 this like Ricky Gervais and the celebrity crew that's out 2:48:36.280 --> 2:48:39.120 there trying to find examples of bad hunters, and and 2:48:39.879 --> 2:48:43.959 they're I mean those people traffic in publicity. The people 2:48:45.000 --> 2:48:47.320 a lot of people that don't agree with hunting traffic 2:48:47.560 --> 2:48:52.840 in messaging, marketing and publicity and so and a lot 2:48:52.840 --> 2:48:55.680 of them are celebrities, are big followings. So when that 2:48:55.840 --> 2:48:58.000 when somebody like Ricky Gervais or who did he just 2:48:58.160 --> 2:49:02.320 person comes to mind, grabs a photo sometimes from like 2:49:02.520 --> 2:49:07.199 years ago and says, oh, this fits my agenda, puts 2:49:07.240 --> 2:49:11.480 it up there like what's in the media takes it on, 2:49:11.800 --> 2:49:15.119 which they always do. The guy the shot at Baboos 2:49:15.200 --> 2:49:19.520 is on Good Morning America. He wasn't but a story one. 2:49:21.040 --> 2:49:24.400 It's like, what's like, do we spend our time fighting 2:49:24.520 --> 2:49:26.120 this is I don't know the answer to this, it's 2:49:26.280 --> 2:49:29.400 fighting that bullshit or do we spend our time doing 2:49:29.480 --> 2:49:31.360 what you were talking about and just doing it right, 2:49:31.879 --> 2:49:37.760 talking about it consistently and ignoring Ricky Gervais and his crew. 2:49:38.360 --> 2:49:44.200 I mean, I think my experience hunting that dough and 2:49:44.600 --> 2:49:49.560 that narrative being communicated to my community will do more too. 2:49:50.920 --> 2:49:55.120 Two bring support and interest to the hunting space from 2:49:55.200 --> 2:50:02.160 non hunters. Then the the one bad story a here. 2:50:02.200 --> 2:50:04.400 If we all find our good story and pass it 2:50:04.480 --> 2:50:07.520 off to our community and remind the people who were 2:50:07.600 --> 2:50:10.720 connected with Hey, this is the most beautiful thing. I 2:50:10.800 --> 2:50:12.920 got to go, have this experience, share this thing with 2:50:13.040 --> 2:50:15.920 you have this, you know, food to put on the plate. 2:50:16.480 --> 2:50:19.680 If we can propagate that as our currency, we will 2:50:19.760 --> 2:50:24.640 outshine that little bit of noise that the far other 2:50:24.720 --> 2:50:27.600 side of the spectrum likes to just re you know position. 2:50:28.240 --> 2:50:30.320 I think they've already found themselves in an echo chamber 2:50:30.360 --> 2:50:32.440 in that way totally. I mean, at that point, it's 2:50:32.480 --> 2:50:35.040 like people that hate hunting see that and like this 2:50:35.200 --> 2:50:37.840 is confirmation that it's gnarly. But I think the rest 2:50:37.920 --> 2:50:41.400 of the middle ground of America, Okay, maybe he shouldn't 2:50:41.400 --> 2:50:43.840 have shut that giraffe. I can agree with that, But 2:50:44.000 --> 2:50:46.600 that's the all the deeper it goes. It doesn't go 2:50:46.800 --> 2:50:49.720 much deeper than the right um and even this conversation 2:50:49.760 --> 2:50:52.600 around being able to call out like, hey, you know, 2:50:54.520 --> 2:51:01.000 there's I can see holistically, holistic, good and virtuous reasons 2:51:01.040 --> 2:51:03.400 to shoot that graffe. I'm getting. I'm with that. I 2:51:03.440 --> 2:51:08.960 can have that conversation. Um, but I would hope as 2:51:09.040 --> 2:51:13.360 time marches forward, just like just like what we were 2:51:13.400 --> 2:51:18.600 talking about with smoking while you're pregnant, that rich globe 2:51:18.640 --> 2:51:23.320 trotting hunters shooting things for what's on their head is 2:51:23.800 --> 2:51:27.280 something that we can treat like smoking while pregnant. Just 2:51:27.480 --> 2:51:30.280 be like, look, I know the money is important. I'm 2:51:30.360 --> 2:51:33.320 with you, I want and I know the concessions in 2:51:33.400 --> 2:51:37.720 Africa have done wonders for wildlife. I am with you, 2:51:38.080 --> 2:51:41.800 can can and yeah, there's plenty of evidence that you 2:51:41.840 --> 2:51:44.400 can spit off. You can spit off what in how 2:51:44.440 --> 2:51:48.240 many African analope antalope species were in Africa and what 2:51:48.320 --> 2:51:50.960 were the populations and do it now and you'd say, Okay, 2:51:51.080 --> 2:51:54.320 that's amazing. That seems to be working. So I'm with 2:51:54.480 --> 2:51:56.920 that conversation. I don't have any problem with that. But 2:51:57.040 --> 2:52:00.680 I think it's it's the I think we're already starting 2:52:00.760 --> 2:52:03.840 to as a honey community. Just move away from that 2:52:03.879 --> 2:52:10.000 a little bit. Because when um Blake Fisher goes to 2:52:10.080 --> 2:52:14.640 African and shoots his baboons, I had all my non 2:52:14.720 --> 2:52:17.920 hunting friends, all my people in my life that aren't 2:52:17.920 --> 2:52:20.440 a part of the industry calling me that day, what's 2:52:20.440 --> 2:52:22.360 about this? What you know about this? What do you 2:52:22.440 --> 2:52:25.879 know about this? What's going on with this? I think 2:52:25.959 --> 2:52:27.400 most of my hunting friends are like, I didn't even 2:52:27.440 --> 2:52:32.240 know that happened. So it used to be like when 2:52:32.320 --> 2:52:34.560 cease a lion would happen or something something like that 2:52:34.600 --> 2:52:36.240 would happen, that we would be immediately on it and 2:52:36.320 --> 2:52:38.360 defending it and defending it and defending it and saying 2:52:38.360 --> 2:52:41.879 all I was degraded it. Now it's kind of like heah, 2:52:41.879 --> 2:52:44.240 you go for it. Yeah, what have you gotta do? Right? Well, 2:52:44.360 --> 2:52:46.000 if you know, if we're looking at the hunting, the 2:52:46.080 --> 2:52:49.519 future of hunting, we can be getting more people outside 2:52:49.879 --> 2:52:55.200 because that breeds stewardship, that breeds people who care, and 2:52:55.280 --> 2:52:58.520 that breeds just more voices from diverse backgrounds that can 2:52:58.760 --> 2:53:02.720 add to the broader effort to protect our wild spaces, 2:53:02.760 --> 2:53:05.360 wildlife in public lands. And the end of the day, 2:53:05.959 --> 2:53:09.800 that Good Morning America story is not getting new hunters 2:53:09.840 --> 2:53:12.800 in the door listening to this podcast or walking over 2:53:12.800 --> 2:53:14.199 there to said to go to buy a new vest. 2:53:14.920 --> 2:53:17.000 At the end of the day, what's getting people outside 2:53:17.240 --> 2:53:21.240 is saying, hey, look, we're normal people trying our best, 2:53:21.560 --> 2:53:24.720 working hard, trying to raise a family. We enjoy hiking. 2:53:25.080 --> 2:53:28.000 We probably bike or snowboard. I surf. I also hunt. 2:53:28.480 --> 2:53:31.400 I eat plants, ate some meat too. That meat that 2:53:31.480 --> 2:53:34.280 I eat I like to get myself. It's generally a dough. 2:53:34.520 --> 2:53:37.920 It's generally a buck. It's generally an elk that's three out, 2:53:38.120 --> 2:53:40.840 like you saw like a normal person. Right, Does that 2:53:40.920 --> 2:53:43.200 make hunting normal if you're doing it totally? And then 2:53:43.240 --> 2:53:45.680 they're like sweet? So I can just take a hunter's 2:53:46.120 --> 2:53:49.720 d course. I can go buy an entry point bow 2:53:49.959 --> 2:53:53.160 or rifle or shotgun, get a friend going to public land, 2:53:53.240 --> 2:53:55.480 give it a shot. Maybe get a duck, Maybe get 2:53:55.520 --> 2:53:57.240 a deer, not a big deal. Doesn't need to be 2:53:57.280 --> 2:54:00.120 a bood and Crockett. It can be a deer, you know. 2:54:00.240 --> 2:54:02.880 And I think the industry and the community at large 2:54:02.959 --> 2:54:06.200 needs to remind people that, like, that's what's up. And 2:54:06.280 --> 2:54:08.240 it's about taking your kid out to do that. It's 2:54:08.240 --> 2:54:10.000 about taking your friends out to do that. It's about 2:54:10.040 --> 2:54:13.280 saying I'm not like I have a job. I don't 2:54:13.320 --> 2:54:16.160 get paid to hunt. Yes, I like hunting, but it's 2:54:16.200 --> 2:54:19.400 like an escape, it's a release, it's an activity. I 2:54:19.480 --> 2:54:23.080 also USA have a vegetable garden. I also used to surf. 2:54:23.320 --> 2:54:25.480 I do all these other things. I do the dishes 2:54:26.240 --> 2:54:29.600 you know I do, and I enjoy listen your podcast, 2:54:29.760 --> 2:54:33.040 I'm doing it. Don't tell my wife, you'll expect me 2:54:33.160 --> 2:54:35.400 to do. But you know what I'm saying, It's not 2:54:35.600 --> 2:54:39.400 this like we're not flying around on jets, smoking drafts 2:54:39.480 --> 2:54:42.040 with like high powered rifles and like putting the trophies 2:54:42.080 --> 2:54:44.440 in our huge halls like you said. I mean that 2:54:44.640 --> 2:54:47.240 that when that when that can be identified as an outlier, 2:54:47.320 --> 2:54:49.160 which I believe it is. I mean the numbers say 2:54:49.160 --> 2:54:52.600 it is. You know, how many people hunt deer, white 2:54:52.640 --> 2:54:55.560 tailed deer in America versus how many people go to Africa. 2:54:55.920 --> 2:54:59.959 I mean it's like ten thousand millions, ten thousand, ten millions, 2:55:00.240 --> 2:55:05.760 right number. Um, So again, like if somebody's seeming to me, 2:55:05.840 --> 2:55:07.680 like you know, so I was thinking about so, well 2:55:07.720 --> 2:55:10.000 with ten thousand and ten million, that does that that 2:55:10.120 --> 2:55:12.720 work for you? Right? There's ten thousand people and ten 2:55:12.800 --> 2:55:16.720 million people. Can we have that conversation now like yeah, 2:55:16.879 --> 2:55:19.640 maybe that guy shouldn't have done that, but yeah, so 2:55:19.680 --> 2:55:23.040 I think that ends up being I've had that just 2:55:23.240 --> 2:55:27.360 just a recent kind of reality, Like I don't really 2:55:27.400 --> 2:55:30.200 need to talk to anybody about that got killing the monkeys, 2:55:30.240 --> 2:55:33.920 because he'll get land based and he'll get what was 2:55:34.000 --> 2:55:35.920 coming to him for something he probably shouldn't have done. 2:55:35.959 --> 2:55:38.400 And that's just noise. Life will go on and the 2:55:38.520 --> 2:55:40.960 noise will go and he'll probably his life will go 2:55:41.040 --> 2:55:43.160 on too, and he'll have learned a lesson to not 2:55:43.320 --> 2:55:46.560 do that, you know. And it's like you eat you 2:55:46.680 --> 2:55:49.480 eat plants with your meat, right generally, I really do. Yeah, 2:55:49.680 --> 2:55:52.480 you know, he's like, you have to remind people that 2:55:52.959 --> 2:55:55.280 we're not just like cutting a backstread out. He's just 2:55:56.920 --> 2:55:59.160 you go on Instagram, you just see like meat. There's 2:55:59.200 --> 2:56:04.680 never any other gonna be like just me like, but 2:56:04.800 --> 2:56:06.960 you know, I mean, I'm excited to look at you know, 2:56:07.000 --> 2:56:11.320 Steve bron Nell's cookbook because those recipes I assume have 2:56:12.040 --> 2:56:20.039 plants as components in them, maybe small fun factory pages asparagus. 2:56:20.160 --> 2:56:26.640 It exists. Increasing I love it. Well, good man, we've 2:56:26.680 --> 2:56:31.000 been talking for how long almost three hours as a 2:56:31.040 --> 2:56:36.600 full roguan podcast. That's good man, it's fun. I um, 2:56:38.320 --> 2:56:40.720 That's why I appreciate. I just appreciate a good conversation. 2:56:40.760 --> 2:56:43.119 That's why I like podcasting because it's good, too good 2:56:43.160 --> 2:56:45.400 to rip it up. Well, that's awesome, because I think 2:56:45.800 --> 2:56:48.560 while we talked for a while and we cover some topics, 2:56:48.959 --> 2:56:50.720 I think what they all boil down to is this 2:56:50.840 --> 2:56:57.800 idea that wildlife management is complicated, policy is imperfect. People 2:56:57.840 --> 2:57:02.760 are trying their hardest, we should assume, and I think 2:57:02.840 --> 2:57:04.959 that that's something that you'll find in a lot of people. 2:57:04.959 --> 2:57:07.720 They're really putting their best foot forward most days. And 2:57:07.760 --> 2:57:11.240 at the end of the day, most people aren't freaking crazy. 2:57:11.640 --> 2:57:13.240 Most people are just trying to get after it and 2:57:13.360 --> 2:57:15.200 do the best they can. And and yeah, and then 2:57:15.280 --> 2:57:18.240 don't dig in too hard. If you have a position, 2:57:18.800 --> 2:57:21.400 dig in if you think it's right. I'm all for that. 2:57:21.520 --> 2:57:24.119 I do that all the time. Don't take in too far. 2:57:24.840 --> 2:57:28.360 To be a little bit flexible and have an understanding 2:57:28.440 --> 2:57:30.800 that of what the other person you're talking to or 2:57:30.840 --> 2:57:32.840 you're disagreeing with, wants to do, and if you want 2:57:32.879 --> 2:57:34.920 to both do the same thing, then be a little 2:57:34.920 --> 2:57:38.480 bit more flexible. Even then. I think that's something that's 2:57:38.480 --> 2:57:41.560 helped me and hopefully that can help other people, especially 2:57:41.600 --> 2:57:44.080 when it comes to things like grizzly bears or any 2:57:44.120 --> 2:57:48.320 hot topics around wildlife management just just don't dig in 2:57:48.440 --> 2:57:51.320 too damn far, and that you can't get yourself out 2:57:51.720 --> 2:57:56.000 and there's more to know always um, But yeah, I 2:57:56.040 --> 2:57:59.760 know we will see. I mean, I think I think 2:58:00.120 --> 2:58:01.400 we might have to have you write a grizzly bear 2:58:01.520 --> 2:58:04.520 piece for the Mediator dot com. Well after reading this 2:58:05.600 --> 2:58:09.640 court decision for five times, been writing a bunch already. Yeah. No, 2:58:09.760 --> 2:58:11.320 it's it's fun to be a part of the conversation. 2:58:11.720 --> 2:58:13.600 I hope people out there who are listening, you know, 2:58:13.720 --> 2:58:17.520 and enjoy our perspective. And you know, while we may 2:58:17.600 --> 2:58:20.039 seem like we can't land on an answer, I think 2:58:20.120 --> 2:58:22.520 that's just us trying to give it our best go. 2:58:22.959 --> 2:58:25.760 You know, it's complicated, Yeah, I mean fecundities, but I 2:58:25.800 --> 2:58:29.360 always say no, I mean, yeah, that's a good point. 2:58:29.879 --> 2:58:32.200 But at the same time, it's just a conversation that 2:58:33.600 --> 2:58:36.720 this podcast is not is not designed to be the answer. 2:58:37.640 --> 2:58:40.240 It's not because it will never be. It's designed to 2:58:40.280 --> 2:58:43.720 be the conversation. And so hopefully you guys listening come 2:58:43.760 --> 2:58:45.720 with that. And if if Charles or I ever in 2:58:45.760 --> 2:58:49.000 the public eye or on this podcast or any future media, 2:58:49.560 --> 2:58:51.760 um say anything that's typic retal to what we said today, 2:58:52.000 --> 2:58:54.240 and we don't try to strive to be educated and 2:58:54.360 --> 2:58:59.840 be centric in our thinking and strife healthy ecosystems first, 2:59:00.920 --> 2:59:04.560 then let us know absolutely because because it's easy to talk, 2:59:04.680 --> 2:59:07.800 but it's a lot harder to walk. So hopefully we'll 2:59:07.840 --> 2:59:10.240 do that and continue to Yeah, thanks for having me. 2:59:10.320 --> 2:59:14.640 It's second third one we've done. You've been on This 2:59:14.680 --> 2:59:16.879 would be like thirty, this will be in the mid thirties. 2:59:16.879 --> 2:59:20.400 You've been on roughly, like, I don't know what I'm 2:59:20.400 --> 2:59:22.280 trying to do. The percentage in my head roughly ten 2:59:22.720 --> 2:59:31.720 of my podcast. You're like, yes, but it's I really 2:59:31.800 --> 2:59:33.640 enjoy these conversations and I hope you have to do 2:59:33.720 --> 2:59:35.640 more of them. And like I said, it's something that 2:59:35.760 --> 2:59:38.480 I makes my day better because it's it's better than 2:59:38.560 --> 2:59:42.720 just washing TV. You're running errands or doing anything. Well, 2:59:42.720 --> 2:59:44.760 you can keep calling him, just don't FaceTime yet. Midnight 2:59:44.920 --> 2:59:47.480 every like every night I'm like, Charles, guess what I 2:59:47.520 --> 2:59:52.480 found the Andy go bud. But also to close it out, 2:59:52.520 --> 2:59:54.600 you did get a sticker there. You're the first one ever. 2:59:54.879 --> 2:59:58.440 I'll be getting a hammerd pretty hard by people around 2:59:58.520 --> 3:00:01.280 like not having any like what do they call that? Paraphernalia. No, 3:00:01.360 --> 3:00:06.280 it's not it swag. It's not paraphernalia. That's illegal. Yeah. Um, 3:00:07.640 --> 3:00:09.800 so yeah, there's a sticker. You're the first person ever 3:00:09.879 --> 3:00:14.480 to receive the Hunting Collective podcast sticker. It's pretty slick. Yeah, 3:00:14.560 --> 3:00:21.640 it's made of biodegradable plastics. Um. But we also have 3:00:21.760 --> 3:00:24.000 some other stuff coming out. So what do you have? Oh, 3:00:24.120 --> 3:00:28.000 we got hats, you know, I get that next time. Yeah, 3:00:28.440 --> 3:00:30.600 something to look forward to, something look forward to. No, 3:00:30.680 --> 3:00:32.920 I have. This is the investment I'm willing to get 3:00:33.600 --> 3:00:38.600 at this point. This is a sticker. Okay, Yeah, all right, 3:00:38.680 --> 3:00:43.640 thanks brother, awesome, Thanks so much. That's it. That's all. 3:00:44.879 --> 3:00:48.400 Thanks to Mr Charles Post for joining me for the 3:00:48.560 --> 3:00:52.240 longest podcast and the history of the Hunting Collective that 3:00:52.280 --> 3:00:55.840 goes all the way back to February. But this is 3:00:55.879 --> 3:00:59.840 a great one. Um. I'm just just proud to know 3:01:00.240 --> 3:01:03.040 to know Charles and proud to have access to his 3:01:03.200 --> 3:01:07.040 knowledge and and as uh folks who are relatively the 3:01:07.120 --> 3:01:09.920 same age like it. It would be great too to 3:01:10.120 --> 3:01:12.880 go through this journey of hunting and life, you know, 3:01:13.640 --> 3:01:17.600 with Charles nearby to hang out with us. So thank you, Charles. 3:01:17.840 --> 3:01:22.480 Hopefully everybody enjoyed those three hours. What else have we got? 3:01:22.560 --> 3:01:25.640 We got We have the mediator dot com as always, 3:01:25.840 --> 3:01:27.240 that's the place to go if you want to find 3:01:27.320 --> 3:01:31.440 honey collective stuff, all the good stuff, all the podcasts, 3:01:31.480 --> 3:01:35.120 all the things articles. Anything I do is going to 3:01:35.240 --> 3:01:39.120 live there. So go there and see what's up. And 3:01:39.200 --> 3:01:40.960 if you could do me a huge favor and sign 3:01:41.080 --> 3:01:45.440 up for the newsletter. It's so on every page it 3:01:45.480 --> 3:01:46.880 says a little thing up in the right corner that 3:01:46.920 --> 3:01:48.200 says sign up for the news letter. If you go 3:01:48.400 --> 3:01:51.240 do that and sign up, you're gonna get every hunting 3:01:51.240 --> 3:01:55.680 collected podcast, every article UM by folks like Steve Ronella, 3:01:56.240 --> 3:02:01.840 April Fokey, Mark Kenyan and so much more. And you'll 3:02:01.879 --> 3:02:04.119 be able to track our company, Media Incorporated as it grows. 3:02:05.240 --> 3:02:08.520 And I do want to say before we go, you've 3:02:08.560 --> 3:02:10.400 been listening for a while now, so just hang with me. 3:02:12.120 --> 3:02:16.960 Thank you to everyone for the encouragement around Media or Incorporated. UM. 3:02:17.080 --> 3:02:20.480 It's been a while now since we announced the company, 3:02:21.440 --> 3:02:26.520 and it has been really awesome to see the support 3:02:26.720 --> 3:02:29.600 for what I'm trying to do, even though if what 3:02:29.720 --> 3:02:32.320 we're trying to do is a bit of a mystery 3:02:34.520 --> 3:02:39.280 on a tangible level. It's it just enforces to me 3:02:39.440 --> 3:02:42.160 that being in the hunting community and being part of 3:02:42.200 --> 3:02:45.920 this thing is was the right thing for my career, 3:02:46.080 --> 3:02:48.200 my life, and for my family, for my friends to 3:02:49.320 --> 3:02:53.520 all be in some way a part of this granted conversation. 3:02:53.600 --> 3:02:56.200 So thank you very much. I very much appreciate that, 3:02:57.440 --> 3:03:01.440 and we're going to continue to work hard to better 3:03:02.080 --> 3:03:07.320 this conversation. And so that is it for Honty Collective 3:03:07.360 --> 3:03:11.880 this week. Join us next Tuesday morning forget another awesome 3:03:12.000 --> 3:03:19.000 guest as we round out and look forward to all right, 3:03:19.560 --> 3:03:19.959 bye bye,