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Speaker 1: Hey everybody, and welcome to another episode of The Hunting Collective.

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Speaker 1: I'm Ben O'Brien, and this week we are joined by

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Speaker 1: Charles Post, a great Charles Post for another conversation around ecology,

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Speaker 1: around wildlife, around fires, around grizzly bears, brown, how to

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Speaker 1: be a better hunter, and just a bunch of jabbering

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Speaker 1: about idealistic notions and philosophies of being better hunters. So

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Speaker 1: hopefully that works for you. Hopefully you listen to all

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Speaker 1: almost three hours of it, and it was a wonderful conversation,

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Speaker 1: one of my favorites of all time, and an invigorating

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Speaker 1: exchange with a very smart dude, Charles Post. So please

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Speaker 1: enjoy Charles Post. Then O'Brien, Hey, buddy, how's it going. Oh,

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Speaker 1: it's going great. It's going great. We both made it.

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Speaker 1: Ice Roads. Yeah, Ice Roads Man Bozeman. I've been talking

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Speaker 1: so nice about Bozeman lately, But now I just I

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Speaker 1: think I'm gonna go back to Texas. I really it's

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Speaker 1: too cold. Yeah, today was pretty frosty. It's pretty frosty,

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Speaker 1: but it's still not bad. In fact, my family is

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Speaker 1: back in Maryland right now and they got eight inches

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Speaker 1: of snow they like two days ago, So we're behind

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Speaker 1: the we're behind. Can you can you crab in the snow? No,

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Speaker 1: you can't crab in the snow. Well, we're just red.

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Speaker 1: Next man, we squirrels. Stuff in your garbage can? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I know if we live in western Maryland, which is

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Speaker 1: like the it's like east West Virginia or South Pennsylvania.

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Speaker 1: It's just like the little sliver that of Maryland that

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Speaker 1: disconnects those states like very limital. Yeah, Northwest Virginia, it's

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Speaker 1: all yeah, it's just right there. So where do you

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Speaker 1: We're definitely squirrels. You could do um deer right now.

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Speaker 1: Opening days coming up, people getting excited. Yeah, the Orange

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Speaker 1: Army is that? Do you miss? Do you miss home?

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Speaker 1: I do? I like home, but I like you could

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Speaker 1: tell me from comp moving out here and being away

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Speaker 1: from home that for me, like, I I appreciate going

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Speaker 1: back and like having a perspective that I wouldn't have gained.

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Speaker 1: But sometimes I feel like an asshole for thinking people

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Speaker 1: that never left are are aren't as worldly as me,

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Speaker 1: because that's that's an asshole thing to say. Yeah it is,

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Speaker 1: So we'll cut this part out. It's too honest, it's

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Speaker 1: too honest. But yeah, I think I think I'm glad

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Speaker 1: I left, but I do miss it there, man, because

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Speaker 1: I'm every time I read something or I think about tribalism,

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Speaker 1: or I think about hunter gatherers, I think about um,

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Speaker 1: you know, societies that were important to our humanity. It's

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Speaker 1: always family, It's always it's you know, it's always tribal.

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Speaker 1: So when you move away, like our modern um style

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Speaker 1: of moving away from our tribe only like to seek

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Speaker 1: success is natural in some way, but also a little

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Speaker 1: that's a shitty way to live life. It's something it's hard.

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Speaker 1: I've been here about two years, you know, my wife's

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Speaker 1: families from here. But yeah, I feel like this year

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Speaker 1: kind of just connecting with UM, you know, kind of

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Speaker 1: creating that tribe, kind of creating that place of like

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Speaker 1: stability and comfort. And it sounds like we're gonna be

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Speaker 1: neighbors now, neighbors. I got a new house closing soon.

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Speaker 1: You got one closing soon. Yeah. We should take a tunnel. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think we could do it. You doing the summer

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Speaker 1: be a little tough to do right now. Our wives

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Speaker 1: is like, and what are you guys actually doing? I'd

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Speaker 1: like to tunnel over to your house, like, come on, son, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we're coming with Get on your belly. It's only a

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Speaker 1: half mile the Charles, could we drive? Sure? This is

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Speaker 1: more fun. That is more fun like shaw Shank redemption

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Speaker 1: popping up out of them popping up? Well, um yeah,

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Speaker 1: you feel you feel like you're starting to get a

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Speaker 1: tribe here in Bozeman that people that feels like home,

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Speaker 1: like you can have over for dinner and doesn't feel

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Speaker 1: like strangers. Yeah, definitely starting to get that way. And

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Speaker 1: I think just starting to get familiar with the seasons

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Speaker 1: and starting to get excited about um, you know, it's

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Speaker 1: a great word in ecology called phrenology. It's like the

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Speaker 1: timing of events and nature is kind of calendar, and

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Speaker 1: that's getting really fun. Starting to just getting familiar with

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Speaker 1: like the way things work outside. Yeah, it's super different

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Speaker 1: from me too, because people talk about different you know,

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Speaker 1: weather events or the way things are and not being

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Speaker 1: from Montana, somebody flippantly talks about all the weather from

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Speaker 1: the east or this you know, this time of year,

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Speaker 1: this is this is what happens. I'm like, that's I'm

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Speaker 1: excited to learn. I have no idea what you're talking

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Speaker 1: about In a lot of ways, and it's cool getting

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Speaker 1: getting your spots. Like I grew up surfing is what

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Speaker 1: I did my all the places they did my field

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Speaker 1: research from, mostly in this year, Nevada and the coastal mountains.

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Speaker 1: So you have these little kind of honey hooles that

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Speaker 1: you know really well, and depending on what you're after,

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Speaker 1: you can go and kind of like make sure you

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Speaker 1: get that. I feel like this year I kind of

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Speaker 1: keaton on a few spots that really feel like they're

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Speaker 1: mind So that's fun, like whether it's bringing friends and

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Speaker 1: family out there, or you know, just maybe Rachel skiing

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Speaker 1: for the day of my wife and I can just

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Speaker 1: go like split and go to my little zone. That's

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Speaker 1: where I'm That's what I'm excited to do. And you know,

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Speaker 1: I've in the transition to get here. It seems like

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Speaker 1: it's been a long time. Um you were saying, yeah,

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Speaker 1: last time we podcast is like because we were just

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Speaker 1: trying to figure out what to do we moved here

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Speaker 1: and now it's like, Okay, that's I'm looking forward to

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Speaker 1: thirty years of that, you know. I mean, I think

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Speaker 1: that's one of the unique things about living in a

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Speaker 1: place where there's public lands to tramp around on right,

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Speaker 1: and there's so much. I mean, people ask me if

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Speaker 1: I've been to this range of that range, or this

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Speaker 1: valley or that valley, and I mean, I feel like

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Speaker 1: the last two years I've just spent poking around our valley. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and just two of the multiple ranges that encircle it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I can't I can't wait. I'm most stressed about all

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Speaker 1: the stuff all that need. Yeah. Right, I gotta buy skis. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I gotta get all this fly fishing equipment. I gotta

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Speaker 1: look really fashionable out on the water. I can't be

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Speaker 1: out there fly just any clothes. I gotta get like

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Speaker 1: sims waiters, and I gotta look the part. But I

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Speaker 1: want to get especially in Yeah, you know, I don't

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Speaker 1: want to be out there. I gotta get like a

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Speaker 1: wicker basket ready. And people still do that because river

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Speaker 1: runs through it an accurate depiction of that's what I

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Speaker 1: should just dress exactly like those guys, cut my hair

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Speaker 1: like them. That'd be great. Well, It's it's funny because

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Speaker 1: you know, I think, especially I'm not traveling as much,

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Speaker 1: it's just been awesome. But for so much as the loss,

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Speaker 1: you know, better part of the last two years, Like

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Speaker 1: you're reminded that you live at an epic place getting

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Speaker 1: off the plane with all these excited people with their

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Speaker 1: fishing gear and their hunting gear and their cameras and

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Speaker 1: their packs ready for Yellowstone, and if you're like, oh,

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Speaker 1: are you gonna go do this? Like I'm actually just

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Speaker 1: knew home and go to sleep, probably unpacking pretty days.

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Speaker 1: I told my wife that the other day. I'm like,

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Speaker 1: do you realize we're going to live for the first

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Speaker 1: time in our lives in a place where people come

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Speaker 1: to go on vacation. You realize public land? Yeah? Do

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Speaker 1: you realize that that this is how lucky that we are?

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Speaker 1: And I think she she absolutely does. Um And to

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Speaker 1: raise a kid here, you know, I know you just

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Speaker 1: got married, but hey could be on the horizon to

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Speaker 1: raise a little human, to mold a little human um

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Speaker 1: in a place that has this immense amount of freedom, right,

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Speaker 1: It's pretty cool totally. Because that's why I would describe

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Speaker 1: like the feeling, because I talked that on the podcast

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Speaker 1: a couple of times, Like the feeling of being here.

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Speaker 1: It's just when you wake up, it's just a little

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Speaker 1: bit different. The knowledge that there's this large tract of

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Speaker 1: freedom just waiting for you. Like that's that's pretty pretty crazy.

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Speaker 1: I mean last spring, I had a black wolf running

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Speaker 1: in front of my car ten minutes from town, you know,

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Speaker 1: and it was kind of I think in that moment

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Speaker 1: it kind of dawned on me because back home, you know,

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Speaker 1: we lived north of San Francisco, right on the banks

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Speaker 1: of the Ocean um huge marine wilderness area, tons of life,

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Speaker 1: but bald eagles were kind of rare. Definitely enough wolves,

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Speaker 1: had a few black bears. But I remember being a

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Speaker 1: little kid and see my first bald eagle, you know,

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Speaker 1: which being somebody he grew up bird watching like Grandma

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Speaker 1: since I was real small. It was awesome, but it

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Speaker 1: was in a bed bath and beyond parking lot as

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Speaker 1: I was loading shotguns on it A's truck to go

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Speaker 1: bird hunting, and I was like, man, this is amazing,

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Speaker 1: but this kind of sucks, you know that my first

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Speaker 1: bald eagle. Think that might be the title of your autobiography.

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Speaker 1: I saw my first bird eagle beath and beyond bald

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Speaker 1: eagle in the bed bath and beyond. It could definitely

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Speaker 1: be a chapter. It was the title, probably first chapter.

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Speaker 1: But now, like my little spot right deer hunt. The

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Speaker 1: other day, I had two bald eagles in the tree

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Speaker 1: over my head. I was like, this is normal, you know,

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Speaker 1: And how amazing is it that there are places where

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Speaker 1: you still have relatively wild ecosystems, where you just get

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Speaker 1: to be, you know, right right over the back fence.

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Speaker 1: Really you can't say that, you know, you can't say

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Speaker 1: it enough. And I think folks UM I was. I

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Speaker 1: had Lantaani in here the other day and we were

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Speaker 1: talking around we just it just came up randomly, Like

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Speaker 1: there's a term going around UM in some circles now

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Speaker 1: called like West East people are calling the people that

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Speaker 1: live out west west East, like I thought West Falia

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Speaker 1: like the but like the van life UM. People in

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Speaker 1: the Midwest and the East like have this UM. I'm

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Speaker 1: not sure what it is, angst around the way that

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Speaker 1: you you know, that you're so proudly talk about the

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Speaker 1: thing that you have. You know, if you got all this,

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Speaker 1: you know, these awesome photos of you install on top mountains,

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Speaker 1: and and I think the beautiful thing about I'm not

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Speaker 1: from here, You're not from here, like we moved here

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Speaker 1: for this, you know, we have other reasons to be here.

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Speaker 1: But I'd say my primary one is for what we're

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Speaker 1: talking about right now. And if you live in Iowa,

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Speaker 1: or if you live where I'm from in Maryland, or

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Speaker 1: if you live in North Carolina, if you live in Florida,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't take long a kid here like come once

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Speaker 1: a year, Montana, Colorado, Idaho, anywhere anywhere where you can

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Speaker 1: get out and do stuff like that. It's it's the

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Speaker 1: sitiation for it should be there for everyone because it's

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Speaker 1: pretty important. Well I think what it does, you know,

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Speaker 1: for somebody like us who or for anybody listening who

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Speaker 1: you know, really spends time, um kind of appreciating nature.

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Speaker 1: One of the things that we talked a lot about

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Speaker 1: when I was in school, mostly a lot of graduate

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Speaker 1: school really was like turn our restoration ecology, like returning

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Speaker 1: the system back to a relatively pristine state. What we're

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Speaker 1: trying to improve the situation. It's hard to know where

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Speaker 1: you should be headed if you don't know where you've

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Speaker 1: come from. In a lot of states, you know, East

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Speaker 1: Coast colonized a long time ago, lost apex predators a

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Speaker 1: long time ago, pretty uh, human influenced ecosystems, you know,

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Speaker 1: up to the Rocky Mountain Front. In a lot of places.

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Speaker 1: So it's nice to know that there are places that

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Speaker 1: you can reference as benchmarks, you know, places where you

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Speaker 1: can see an ecosystem that's functioning in a relatively pristine way.

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Speaker 1: And that's something really informative because you can bring that

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Speaker 1: home and you can say, wow, you know, New England

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Speaker 1: would have had bald eagles and wolves and bears and

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Speaker 1: moose in a lot of places, you know, and even

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Speaker 1: by the time listen, yeah, listen, I will you, you

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Speaker 1: would have had elk and grizzly bears and wolves, and

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Speaker 1: you did at some point right before you Iowa. And

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Speaker 1: if you've read Saint Kenny Almanac, the first fifty pages

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Speaker 1: talk about, you know, the depletion of wildlife and not

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Speaker 1: to resources across you know, the up and Wisconsin in particular.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't that long ago that we had passenger pigeons,

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Speaker 1: you know, blotting the sky out and heard a bison

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Speaker 1: that Colonel Dodge spent multiple days in the saddle riding

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Speaker 1: one one herd. So it's cool because you come to

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Speaker 1: a place like this, you're like, wow, like this is

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Speaker 1: what's been lost in a lot of places. You go

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Speaker 1: to Alaska, you know, you see the salmon migration. I

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Speaker 1: grew up in California. By the time I was in

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Speaker 1: high school, the salmon that had migrated at my backyard creek,

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Speaker 1: they disappeared, you know, functionally, that population was extinct. So

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Speaker 1: it's funny though, I'm sorry, I think it's funny. One

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Speaker 1: thing that that you're saying really like, you know, wory

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Speaker 1: relatively young men. You and I, um, but I my

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Speaker 1: father talks about being in the hills of western Maryland

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Speaker 1: hunting grouse and quail and pheasants. In my lifetime, I

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Speaker 1: think I've seen one pheasant that was on YouTube probably yeah,

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Speaker 1: beautiful birds from China here was like that. That change

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Speaker 1: happened within my and my you know, within my generation

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Speaker 1: there were upland birds. That was like my dad's best pastime.

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Speaker 1: It used to be small game and upland birds and

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Speaker 1: then kill a orm opening day. And that changed within

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Speaker 1: my lifetime. Now there are no very few upland birds

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Speaker 1: because the way that habitat changed, right well, you know,

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Speaker 1: and you see things in the news or you see

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Speaker 1: these headlines that are kind of uh, I can be

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Speaker 1: quite depressing at time, especially for people like I guess

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Speaker 1: you probably keep our pulse. You around the pulse of

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Speaker 1: the environment or the outdoors. And you know, one of

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Speaker 1: the statistics that constantly runs through my head, for better

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Speaker 1: or worse, is the idea that not the idea of

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Speaker 1: the reality, that the extinction right on Earth is a

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Speaker 1: hundred to a thousand times greater than would be without humans.

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Speaker 1: So for us, like I had salmon disappear in my backyard,

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Speaker 1: you grew up in a place that has changed dramatically

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Speaker 1: since your dad was a young young guy. I mean

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Speaker 1: that phenomena is is taking place across the globe and

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Speaker 1: it's resulting in extinctions, Like there are still quail, there

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Speaker 1: are still grounds, there are still Pacific salmon. But I

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Speaker 1: mean it's hard to fathom, you know, growing up in

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Speaker 1: a place like Southeast Asia where you're there was a

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Speaker 1: rhino that you would have grown up with and there's

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Speaker 1: no more rhinos. Like that's crazy. I mean the California

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Speaker 1: grizzlies extinct. I mean it's and I think I mean

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Speaker 1: what eastern elk I mean going further back but there, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean there's these these very familiar your species that

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Speaker 1: will never see again, right, And I think those are

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Speaker 1: the canaries in the coal mine, These like big, charismatic

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Speaker 1: things that generations have told tales of, you know, maybe

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Speaker 1: Eastern Elk, and it's like, wow, they're not there anymore. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: The amount of hunters that don't know that Eastern elk

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Speaker 1: ever existed or ever seen you know, what one might

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Speaker 1: have looked like, or what you know, depictions of them

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Speaker 1: is is crazy. I think when you read about them

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Speaker 1: and see what they were, it's amazing, right, it's amazing.

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Speaker 1: I mean just to think like bison grazing from Canada

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Speaker 1: to Mexico like insane. You know, when you read all

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Speaker 1: the trappers journalist, that little naturalist Hudson Bay journals, they

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Speaker 1: did the wonderful job of documenting you know, pray or

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Speaker 1: whatever whatever they able to harvest. I mean, you just

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Speaker 1: can't hardly imagine like what it must have been like.

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Speaker 1: And I think again back to Montana and the public

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Speaker 1: lands and the wildlife we have. It's such an important

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Speaker 1: reminder for people from across the country to come out

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Speaker 1: here and say, wow, like this is something we can

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Speaker 1: work towards. Places that have you know, wild ecosystems still,

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Speaker 1: places for wildlife are abundant, you know, and communities that

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Speaker 1: you know, we sure certainly have growing pains in areas

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Speaker 1: that we don't necessarily see eye to eye on. But

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Speaker 1: I think people generally rely on nature in a lot

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Speaker 1: of ways, whether it's to grow their their crops, or

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Speaker 1: to hunted harvest, or just to find an escape. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think it's a That's one of the things that

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Speaker 1: perplexes me most about. And I think what I've gained

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Speaker 1: from you in our time talking on on record and

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Speaker 1: off record is is just the hunters can be, you know,

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Speaker 1: agents of healthy ecosystems. And that ends up being at

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Speaker 1: the end of the day, if you're if we're really

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Speaker 1: about what we say we're about, which I'm not really

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Speaker 1: sure we are, Like there in a lot of ways,

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Speaker 1: we hunters are virtuous in a lot of ways. They're

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Speaker 1: not modern hunters at least and probably all hunters through history,

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Speaker 1: I would say, um, but what what it's help me

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Speaker 1: to understand, It's like the most virtuous thing to be

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Speaker 1: about as a hunter is a healthy ecosystem. You know,

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Speaker 1: like meat will happen, conservation will get funded. Those things

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Speaker 1: are there's what they're happening, their byproducts. That's there's nothing

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Speaker 1: I'm going to say, and due to change the fact

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Speaker 1: that I have to pay a duck stamp or I

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Speaker 1: have to pay a license fee, and it it feels

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Speaker 1: I used to want to celebrate that, like we can

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Speaker 1: look at all the boddy I give you right, but

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Speaker 1: I have no choice. I have no choice. I'm either

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Speaker 1: a poecher or I pay and so, but I do

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Speaker 1: have a choice to to whether to be an agent

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Speaker 1: for an healthy ecosystem or not. Like that's my choice

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Speaker 1: because I can be out there too and understand the

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Speaker 1: natural world, or I can be out there just to

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Speaker 1: fill my tag and pay my dues. Right, and and

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Speaker 1: you can do there are so many opportunities to do more.

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Speaker 1: We don't have community groups on road maintenance necessarily, or

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Speaker 1: bridge maintenance. Even if you want to start a club,

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Speaker 1: you probably couldn't go and fix a pothole leakal But

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Speaker 1: you know along that same line pain and we've talked

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Speaker 1: to us before. You know, paying your involuntary tax is

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Speaker 1: just like putting money in the pot for roads or schools,

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Speaker 1: which is an amazing thing about the American system that

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Speaker 1: we were part of. But we also are blessed that

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Speaker 1: we have all these opportunities to be more involved and

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Speaker 1: be that agent of change and contribute not only to

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Speaker 1: carry ourselves in a certain way when we're out hunting,

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Speaker 1: we're engaging with non hunters or people in our community,

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Speaker 1: but there's also a million opportunities to participate, and whether

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Speaker 1: that's being involved in trail maintenance, picking up trash as

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Speaker 1: you go, you know, leaving by example, being a part

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Speaker 1: of a Christmas bird count, or being a part of

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Speaker 1: a resta stream restoration project. I think you and I

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Speaker 1: have saved many indigo buntings. That's right. That think that

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Speaker 1: was the bird out the window hashtag it's been. There's

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Speaker 1: a few of them out there. Yeah, I feel like

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Speaker 1: the ending of people watch. Oh my god, I feel

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Speaker 1: like that's happened. Well, next year we should do a

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Speaker 1: live pot cast the Boson Raptor Fest. Yeah. I heard so.

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Speaker 1: Litle Hilba from Stone Glacier we had lunch the other day.

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Speaker 1: He had a bunch of scraps from a deer he

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Speaker 1: killed in the back. He's like, I'm taking these over

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Speaker 1: to the raptor. Like, what are you talking about? Veloscopy raptors.

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Speaker 1: That was my first thought because I have a child,

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Speaker 1: I have a child's mind, So I was like, veloscopy

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Speaker 1: raptors put your crans down. Yeah, but and I was like, wait,

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Speaker 1: that's awesome, dude. You know so he's a lot of

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Speaker 1: hunters have started taking their scraps rather than chucking them

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Speaker 1: out for codes or whatever and taking over the Raptor Center.

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Speaker 1: Like great, right, that's just another thing. But I think

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Speaker 1: you know, well, you and I probably repeat ourselves on

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Speaker 1: that point a lot around. You know, you're paying your

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Speaker 1: taxigo hunt. You know, I don't go stand by the

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Speaker 1: bridge when they're finished the new construction be liked, you're welcome.

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Speaker 1: I don't do that because I could. I could. We

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Speaker 1: can all get together and be like, wait did bridge

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Speaker 1: every Sunday? But hunters do that all the time. You know,

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Speaker 1: we did at what you didn't really do because you

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Speaker 1: don't have a choice. Um. We It is okay to

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Speaker 1: celebrate the history that this happened, but celebrating the money

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Speaker 1: that you're paying is not. It's not enough. It's not

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Speaker 1: it's just not enough. And do you know do more? Um?

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Speaker 1: And I love the deer scrap you know that's creation

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Speaker 1: because I've done some work with BOS and Raptor Center

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Speaker 1: and they're awesome. They're just outside of town. You're telling

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Speaker 1: all about that I'm very ignorant to what they do. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so they're um, they're are rehabilitation center. They're also an

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Speaker 1: education center. UM. They do a lot of outreach as well.

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Speaker 1: So a typical situation is, you know, an alv I

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Speaker 1: hit by a car. Somebody picks it up, either calls

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Speaker 1: and they'll come and retrieve it, or you bring it

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Speaker 1: out there and they have It's just an incredible staff

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Speaker 1: of people that will, you know, with with the skills

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Speaker 1: and the knowledge and resources to try to bring some

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Speaker 1: of these birds back to back to life. UM, you

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Speaker 1: know a common thing, uh, which we don't have to

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Speaker 1: get into because it's a hunting issue topic, but you know,

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Speaker 1: lead poisoning is a big deal for a lot of

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Speaker 1: a lot of migratory um, you know, eagles especially, So

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Speaker 1: the times that I've gone over there and shot some

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Speaker 1: photos for them and helped them kind of you know,

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Speaker 1: it's of interest, but it's also it's nice to be

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Speaker 1: able to you know, support groups like that. And I've

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Speaker 1: shot photos of these birds that have been picked up

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Speaker 1: by hunters. Actually, the bald Eagles story that I did

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Speaker 1: last year for them, there were two hunters somewhere in

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Speaker 1: eastern Montana. I want to say, who you know. Bald

389
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Speaker 1: eagles are big birds, old and eggles are even bigger.

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Speaker 1: You see him in the groups. Like I've been to

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Speaker 1: a lot of you know, Prince of Wales and there's

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Speaker 1: like seventeen bald eagles ripping apart of you know, blacktail deer.

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Speaker 1: You're like, they'll like take your groceries from the car. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: but you know, so these two hunters in this one

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Speaker 1: circumstance where we're out um rifle hunting and found this

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00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:57,159
Speaker 1: bald eagle that was obviously super sick, and these guys

397
00:20:57,200 --> 00:20:59,800
Speaker 1: were super brave and probably lucky, but they went never in,

398
00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:01,960
Speaker 1: literally picked it up with a towel, put in their truck,

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Speaker 1: drove it a few hours to the Raptor Center, and

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Speaker 1: it had incredibly high levels of of lead. So basically,

401
00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:13,440
Speaker 1: what happens from a physiology perspective as you have these birds, um,

402
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Speaker 1: I've done a little research learned from them, and oftentimes

403
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Speaker 1: they're migratory birds. You have your resident eagles and you

404
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Speaker 1: have migratory eagles. The resident eagles have a diet like

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Speaker 1: you and I are home and we have certain things

406
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Speaker 1: we eat, but if we're traveling at the airport. We're

407
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Speaker 1: going to a new city. We're gonna be a little

408
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Speaker 1: bit more opportunistic. So that's the same program with these

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Speaker 1: migratory birds. They're coming through Bozeman, Montana. They've never been here.

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Speaker 1: They see a pile of guts and they're like, oh,

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Speaker 1: that's food. I gotta put calories on and I need

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Speaker 1: to go eat that. Whereas the local bourbon like, I

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Speaker 1: love fish, I know my spot to go kill over

414
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Speaker 1: that dead deer to get to their spot where they

415
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Speaker 1: know there's fish totally, and they just have their preference.

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Speaker 1: So oftentimes these migratory birds are more predisposed to this

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Speaker 1: lead poisoning. So what happens is the way these birds

418
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Speaker 1: bodies were because they're sitting there. You've probably seen an

419
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Speaker 1: eagle or or a vulture, even a raccoon. You know,

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Speaker 1: a lot of these animals like, I gotta get as

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Speaker 1: much down my throat as possible because I don't know

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Speaker 1: when when my next meal is coming. I don't know

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Speaker 1: if some bigger bird or bears and kicking me off this.

424
00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:19,560
Speaker 1: So their bodies are basically ingesting rapidly, and then they

425
00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:22,480
Speaker 1: have these digestive systems that are just like burning through

426
00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:26,879
Speaker 1: the food. So they're metabolizing not only the meat at

427
00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:30,719
Speaker 1: a rapid pace, but that lead. So instead of drinking

428
00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:34,160
Speaker 1: like six beers over six hours, they're chugging six beers

429
00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:36,359
Speaker 1: at one time, and it just punches them. So they

430
00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:38,200
Speaker 1: get really sick. And a lot of birds will die

431
00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:41,600
Speaker 1: from that lead poisoning. Um. So the raptor center, you know,

432
00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:45,680
Speaker 1: they will stabilize the bird. UM. I'm sure there's a

433
00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:47,120
Speaker 1: lot of other things. I don't know that they do,

434
00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:50,000
Speaker 1: but um, you know, basically getting back on his feet,

435
00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:52,400
Speaker 1: and a lot of birds do die. But in this case,

436
00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:53,800
Speaker 1: we were able to let that bird go. So what

437
00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:56,240
Speaker 1: makes a bird like that migratory as opposed to resident?

438
00:22:57,040 --> 00:23:01,120
Speaker 1: You know, I know with with someone it's it's more

439
00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:04,359
Speaker 1: of a of a fitness thing. If you're a rainbow

440
00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:07,320
Speaker 1: trout and you saw up a stream, say, you know,

441
00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:10,479
Speaker 1: you're you have ten thousands, you know, little eggs that

442
00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:14,200
Speaker 1: hatch and there's you know, and uh say twenty fish

443
00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:17,479
Speaker 1: that that survived to a young age. Certain OFFICI will

444
00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:20,520
Speaker 1: stay as rainbow trout. The ones that get really big

445
00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:23,160
Speaker 1: and exceed a certain size speciold will say, like ship,

446
00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:24,760
Speaker 1: I can move on from this little creek and I

447
00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:26,359
Speaker 1: can go to the ocean get way bigger, and the

448
00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:28,399
Speaker 1: bigger I get, the more eggs I can have, or

449
00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:30,480
Speaker 1: the more reproductive I can be. More of a cound

450
00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:32,520
Speaker 1: that's the word we use, so usually it's like a

451
00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:36,199
Speaker 1: size thing like that. Maybe that's the hashtag from this Yeah,

452
00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:41,159
Speaker 1: that's definitely the hashtag this podcast. The condity that sounds

453
00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:44,800
Speaker 1: like like a cool band name for something or like

454
00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:50,640
Speaker 1: a bumper sticker. Yeah, for coundity. Yeah, all right, continue,

455
00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:54,800
Speaker 1: I'm sorry. That'll be the hashtag for the episode. You

456
00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:59,719
Speaker 1: can look at the bottom of the podcast. Both eagles,

457
00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:02,720
Speaker 1: you know, probably a lot to do with um where

458
00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:04,719
Speaker 1: they were born, you know, because it's hard to make

459
00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:06,800
Speaker 1: a living being an eagle Northwest Territory. It's probably a

460
00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:10,840
Speaker 1: little bit easier being a resident bird in the Bay area. Um,

461
00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:14,080
Speaker 1: so whether it'll push these birds down and um, you know,

462
00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:18,120
Speaker 1: there's also only so many you know, habitats are available.

463
00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:20,840
Speaker 1: You know, on eagle has a home range and they're

464
00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:23,040
Speaker 1: not going to be super psyched on another bald eagle

465
00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:26,080
Speaker 1: moving into their spot. You know, nest sites are often limited,

466
00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:29,280
Speaker 1: so it's probably a suite of factors that determine whether

467
00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:33,160
Speaker 1: birds days or goes um locality is probably one of them. Yeah,

468
00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:35,280
Speaker 1: that's what I was gonna say. That's where they're, where

469
00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:38,400
Speaker 1: they're born, and where they where they come up. Sure, yeah,

470
00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:41,000
Speaker 1: so so they lead things interesting, you know. And I'm

471
00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:43,719
Speaker 1: not a ballistics expert, but you know, lead has been

472
00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:45,920
Speaker 1: outlawed in a lot of places where there's condors in

473
00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:50,240
Speaker 1: certain waterfowl zones. Maybe maybe across the board, I'm not

474
00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:53,680
Speaker 1: quite sure about that. Most Yeah, it's hard to find

475
00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:55,440
Speaker 1: a place where you can use lead now and they're

476
00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:57,440
Speaker 1: they're you know, in the past was it was a

477
00:24:57,520 --> 00:24:59,840
Speaker 1: huge debate hunters, you know, on the side of you

478
00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:02,200
Speaker 1: lead a lot of in a lot of cases, I think,

479
00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:05,159
Speaker 1: but I think mostly you know, the steel shot has

480
00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:09,240
Speaker 1: become you know, prevalent. Most most hunters you run into

481
00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:13,640
Speaker 1: understand what's going on there. Well, it's hard, you know, um,

482
00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:15,640
Speaker 1: because it happens when you shoot an animal with lead,

483
00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:19,639
Speaker 1: is it fragments? So maybe the birds not swalling the

484
00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:22,239
Speaker 1: whole bullet, But it's getting quite a bit of you know,

485
00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:24,919
Speaker 1: it's the leads pretty well spread out through the end

486
00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:28,920
Speaker 1: of Google that how many states lead shot? Yeah, for hunting,

487
00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:30,920
Speaker 1: because that that's something not something I know off hand,

488
00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:33,879
Speaker 1: but it's hard, right because the alternative might be tungsten.

489
00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:36,480
Speaker 1: And if we're talking about like impact on the environment,

490
00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:38,520
Speaker 1: you know, everything's kind of impact. Well that's yeah. I

491
00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:42,160
Speaker 1: mean I think in the past that the hunting point was, hey,

492
00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:44,240
Speaker 1: if we can't use lead and aim, it gets way

493
00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:46,320
Speaker 1: more expensive and less people go hunting. And it was

494
00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:48,480
Speaker 1: always like, well, this is a submerge of tact to

495
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:52,639
Speaker 1: have less hunters, and that was always So it's not

496
00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:55,000
Speaker 1: a ballistics thing. People aren't saying lead shoots better than

497
00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:58,159
Speaker 1: a steel I've never heard that. Yeah, I know, not

498
00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:03,000
Speaker 1: a shot shell expert, but I remember early in my

499
00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:05,199
Speaker 1: career that that was a lot of the you know,

500
00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:07,840
Speaker 1: this makes this makes AMMO so much more expensive, and

501
00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:10,960
Speaker 1: that is true in some ways and for all was listening.

502
00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:13,399
Speaker 1: We'll be giving out Ben's personal cell phone nowhere you

503
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:16,520
Speaker 1: can call and provide feedback on the There's a lot

504
00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:18,000
Speaker 1: of people that are like, I know what this is about.

505
00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:20,040
Speaker 1: He's an idiot, and I don't know much. No, I

506
00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:26,720
Speaker 1: don't how many states allow lead shot hunting. I gotta

507
00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:28,560
Speaker 1: get out like a Googler person so I don't have

508
00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:30,120
Speaker 1: to do it and talk to you the same time

509
00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:37,119
Speaker 1: next time. But yeah, it's interesting thing because it seems

510
00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:40,440
Speaker 1: like the United States banned lead shot for hunting waterfowl,

511
00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:45,359
Speaker 1: and at least states of instituted lead shot restrictions beyond

512
00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:50,320
Speaker 1: those mandated for waterfowl hunting. Yeah, and I probably say

513
00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:55,800
Speaker 1: that most places that support condors are included in that

514
00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:58,240
Speaker 1: list of regions where you can't use lad that says

515
00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:00,280
Speaker 1: there will be a complete ban on the use of

516
00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:03,320
Speaker 1: lead ammunition for any hunting purposes anywhere in the state

517
00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:08,480
Speaker 1: by July one. And this is, um what state is that?

518
00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:18,680
Speaker 1: Now We're going down this rabbit hole. Ammunition other than

519
00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:22,159
Speaker 1: lead required for waterfowl and went hunting with a shotgun

520
00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:27,200
Speaker 1: on wildlife refugees and wildlife production areas. So there's a

521
00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:29,040
Speaker 1: lead Free Hunting dot Com if you want to get

522
00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:31,720
Speaker 1: all the state by state rundown like free Hunting dot

523
00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:35,120
Speaker 1: Com has every single state, UM, and most of them

524
00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:39,080
Speaker 1: are required non toxic ammunition. Yeah, it's just you know,

525
00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:42,239
Speaker 1: it's we talk about stewardship, We talked about, you know,

526
00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:45,480
Speaker 1: being that better hunter, kind of going above and beyond

527
00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:48,800
Speaker 1: in it. You know, we're obviously revealing we're not the

528
00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:51,320
Speaker 1: experts on the topic. But it does seem that, you know,

529
00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:54,760
Speaker 1: avoiding lead if possible, is one way that we can,

530
00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:57,520
Speaker 1: you know, reduce our impact in terms of some of

531
00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:00,360
Speaker 1: these wildlife that kind of get caught up and it's

532
00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:02,480
Speaker 1: something like that this you know now it's you know,

533
00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:08,840
Speaker 1: it's it's understood that lead shot has negative effects on

534
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:12,000
Speaker 1: on birds. UM, that's an understood thing. And if I'm

535
00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:15,480
Speaker 1: just scrolling down and reading through this, really what I'm

536
00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:17,359
Speaker 1: picking up is, you know, if I were just to

537
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:21,280
Speaker 1: read Kentucky non toxic gam unition required for dubs in

538
00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:26,480
Speaker 1: thirteen wildlife Refugees Louisiana, non toxic gammunition required for dubs

539
00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:31,359
Speaker 1: at certain wildlife management areas. UM, there's just a bunch

540
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:35,399
Speaker 1: of different a bunch of different rules and regulations on it,

541
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:38,920
Speaker 1: but it's generally it's generally accepted. And one of the

542
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:41,360
Speaker 1: things that's that's cool about this topic I'm glad you

543
00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:43,160
Speaker 1: brought about this is that, you know, I just made

544
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:46,800
Speaker 1: this film called Skymigrations. It's a film about um raptors

545
00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:49,800
Speaker 1: migrating across two hemispheres in some cases, and you can

546
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:53,840
Speaker 1: check it on a Vimeo. But the kind of the

547
00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:56,000
Speaker 1: thesis of that film was that a lot of these

548
00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:58,680
Speaker 1: birds of prey require at least two hemispheres worth of

549
00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:01,600
Speaker 1: stewardship to be sustained. You know, there was a famous

550
00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:05,640
Speaker 1: study that I referenced in the film We're Swainson's Hawk Hawks.

551
00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:09,160
Speaker 1: This bird of prey that can migrate from BC all

552
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:12,320
Speaker 1: the way to the grasslands of Argentina was dying off

553
00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:16,000
Speaker 1: in these huge spates. And what researchers found was that

554
00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:19,520
Speaker 1: if you are poisoning crickets in Argentina, you're going to

555
00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:25,160
Speaker 1: impact a bird that would over summer or reproduce in

556
00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:27,960
Speaker 1: the forest of BCS. So these are these are continental

557
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:31,880
Speaker 1: wide issues. So the way that we choose to treat

558
00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:34,880
Speaker 1: or stewart or care for our ecosystems in wildlife has

559
00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:41,040
Speaker 1: these repercussion repercussive um you know, kind of impacts that

560
00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:44,440
Speaker 1: go far beyond the in the region of the county

561
00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:48,240
Speaker 1: is that we call home. Yeah, I'm sorry, I'm just reading.

562
00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:52,440
Speaker 1: We're gonna take a short break. I don't take a

563
00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:54,479
Speaker 1: short break, and I could get educated on this very

564
00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:57,560
Speaker 1: important subject. We'll go back to it now that these

565
00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:00,040
Speaker 1: are good like we're talking about the y podcast that

566
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:01,720
Speaker 1: are cool prior to this, like this is one of

567
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:04,160
Speaker 1: the cool things because I guarantee maybe you will too.

568
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:06,440
Speaker 1: And this is over, I'm going to dive deep into

569
00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:10,800
Speaker 1: the rabbit hole of lead ammunition. You're FaceTime like two am, Like,

570
00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:16,600
Speaker 1: guess what, let's start on association already got shirts. Maybe

571
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:20,960
Speaker 1: it's gonna be great. Um, but yeah, I think it's

572
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:24,480
Speaker 1: it's there are some things in the hunting community that

573
00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:28,400
Speaker 1: you're as a part of the community. I find that

574
00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:32,720
Speaker 1: we have been traditionally pretty rigid, um and there's been

575
00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:36,280
Speaker 1: a lot of things over the years that we pushed

576
00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:39,480
Speaker 1: back on with initial you know, hey, listen, let's maybe

577
00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:42,000
Speaker 1: not do this, let's maybe not do that, let's maybe

578
00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:44,840
Speaker 1: change our ways there. And in the rigidity of the

579
00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:48,280
Speaker 1: community has always been hey, this is our right, this

580
00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:50,600
Speaker 1: is it's a tradition. And I think there's a new

581
00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:54,880
Speaker 1: generation of of especially my generation that that and yours

582
00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:57,480
Speaker 1: as well, I think a little bit differently around those things.

583
00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:00,200
Speaker 1: So if for example, we were we were all all

584
00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:04,680
Speaker 1: too come upon you know, an issue, we knew like

585
00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:06,320
Speaker 1: you were to bring up an issue, say okay, this

586
00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:11,160
Speaker 1: is happening, hunters are causing this. Um. The honey community

587
00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:14,000
Speaker 1: is a little more malleable nowadays, I think to change

588
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:16,880
Speaker 1: those things. Yeah, and we kind of talked about it earlier,

589
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:19,240
Speaker 1: where you know, with the rise of social media and

590
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:24,800
Speaker 1: podcasts and content outlets, opportunities to learn. I think the

591
00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:28,960
Speaker 1: general public is has blessed this opportunity to be exposed

592
00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:31,560
Speaker 1: to a suite of perspectives. You know, it's not just

593
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:33,480
Speaker 1: what you might find in Peterson's or what you see

594
00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:36,400
Speaker 1: at Cabela's or what you see in the New York Times.

595
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:41,200
Speaker 1: You know, there are thousands of perspectives that are packaged

596
00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:43,640
Speaker 1: up and put it your fingertips if you want them.

597
00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:47,080
Speaker 1: And that's awesome because I think it gives people an

598
00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:50,600
Speaker 1: opportunity to be flexible and be plastic and not necessarily say, well,

599
00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:53,000
Speaker 1: this is my news source, so this is my mentor,

600
00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:56,120
Speaker 1: and not swimming to think, um, you know and we don't.

601
00:31:56,480 --> 00:32:00,840
Speaker 1: There's also something to be said for being open to learning, right, Like,

602
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:04,560
Speaker 1: I was vegetarian for a few years in college. One

603
00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:07,560
Speaker 1: of the reasons was I was broke and the house

604
00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:09,280
Speaker 1: I lived in a lot of the people with vegetarians

605
00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:12,040
Speaker 1: ate mostly plants. I also ate some you know, meat

606
00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:14,000
Speaker 1: here and there, but it was mostly a plant based diet.

607
00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:18,240
Speaker 1: Um I changed people change. You know, you're exposing these things,

608
00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:22,520
Speaker 1: new ideas, new tastes, the concept of knowledge changes for

609
00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:24,800
Speaker 1: us as humans. When I was a kid and you

610
00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:26,960
Speaker 1: were a kid, they were pushing out, they were pushing

611
00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:29,280
Speaker 1: across the table this pyramid. They're like, hey, checked this

612
00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:31,880
Speaker 1: pyramid out. This is how you should eat. It's called

613
00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:36,880
Speaker 1: the food pyramid. Like m hmm. Interesting, Like I don't

614
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:40,800
Speaker 1: see Simnto's crunch on that. But now, I mean there's

615
00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:43,960
Speaker 1: a you know, many many, many people. You know, there

616
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:48,000
Speaker 1: are experts in that in those fields that that look

617
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:50,880
Speaker 1: at that and shake their heads like that's you should

618
00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:54,280
Speaker 1: invert that pyramid. Some people will tell you. But um,

619
00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:57,360
Speaker 1: the one thing about you know I've found about the

620
00:32:57,480 --> 00:33:00,000
Speaker 1: human died and really listening to a lot of podcasts,

621
00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:02,360
Speaker 1: Rogan does a great job, Joe Rogan do is a

622
00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:05,120
Speaker 1: great job of having a bunch of you know, varying

623
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:09,280
Speaker 1: perspectives on is that it's a it's a fairly personal

624
00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:11,480
Speaker 1: thing of what works for you. But the knowledge you

625
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:15,280
Speaker 1: can have about you know, calorie intake and heart health.

626
00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:17,720
Speaker 1: I mean, there are a lot of different really smart

627
00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:21,600
Speaker 1: people that that disagree on on those important issues right,

628
00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:27,120
Speaker 1: and every everybody's ecosystem personal ecosystem. As we know, we

629
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:30,720
Speaker 1: have millions and millions of you know, flora living our guts.

630
00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:34,320
Speaker 1: Those are all different. My wife, she has had, you know,

631
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:38,680
Speaker 1: some um health issues, not major fortunately, but some things

632
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:42,040
Speaker 1: that bother her. And she just got some body work done,

633
00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:45,120
Speaker 1: some tests back, and they're like, you're allergic to these

634
00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:47,280
Speaker 1: six things, and she cut them out of her diet.

635
00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:50,200
Speaker 1: She feels great, you know, And that's not a I

636
00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:54,600
Speaker 1: have some ideological issue with this plant or this type

637
00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:56,560
Speaker 1: of food. This is just straight up I feel like

638
00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:58,240
Speaker 1: ship when I eat it, and I'm not gonna eat

639
00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:01,880
Speaker 1: it anymore. You know. Doctors recently told me all gluten.

640
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:04,040
Speaker 1: He's like, you should eat everything should you should have

641
00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:06,480
Speaker 1: gluten in it? In the hunter percent gluten diet. I

642
00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:08,680
Speaker 1: was like, well, that's odd. But things, I'm just kidding.

643
00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:15,919
Speaker 1: You're like, I love nachos, what everything that's been maybe

644
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:20,120
Speaker 1: a T shirt everything glue um, But yeah, I know,

645
00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:23,120
Speaker 1: I think that all those things are All those things

646
00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:26,800
Speaker 1: are true, and and it's hard to navigate this world

647
00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:30,520
Speaker 1: with the amount of information that is that would be

648
00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:34,840
Speaker 1: required to do it right. It would really be you

649
00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:37,400
Speaker 1: know even in even if you know the topic of

650
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:43,280
Speaker 1: this podcast happens to be hunting, even to be holistically

651
00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:49,480
Speaker 1: pure and your hunting pursuits is it's impossible, I believe,

652
00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:54,400
Speaker 1: because things are changing so rapidly. But it's also takes work.

653
00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:59,959
Speaker 1: It takes a lot of work. It takes physical work,

654
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:05,759
Speaker 1: emotional work, dedication to skills, acquiring of new ones and

655
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:08,680
Speaker 1: refining the ones that you have. Like that, it's just

656
00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:11,680
Speaker 1: a lot of work. And just like the mental game.

657
00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:15,960
Speaker 1: I mean, we have conversations about things that pop up

658
00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:21,080
Speaker 1: in environmental news or wildlife management. You know, we'll speaking

659
00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:24,000
Speaker 1: for us both. I know we'll spend hours trying to

660
00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:26,360
Speaker 1: understand the issue. I don't. Yeah, there's some stuff that

661
00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:28,640
Speaker 1: I even like. One thing I am sure you could

662
00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:30,720
Speaker 1: say this, dude, that I like about being a writer

663
00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:33,720
Speaker 1: is it gives me time, Like gives me an excuse

664
00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:37,240
Speaker 1: to like really dive into subjects. And sometimes I'll finish

665
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:41,520
Speaker 1: an article, whether it's long short, Uh, it doesn't really matter.

666
00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:44,640
Speaker 1: I'll get done the article and people will enjoy it.

667
00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:47,399
Speaker 1: And by the time it's a day old, I want

668
00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:49,920
Speaker 1: to write a new one because you've you've learned something

669
00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:53,640
Speaker 1: or I've kind of it opens up a new pathway

670
00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:55,960
Speaker 1: to knowledge and you go down that path and now

671
00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:57,799
Speaker 1: you're like, oh, now I found this and this and this,

672
00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:00,640
Speaker 1: And I think that's just how how how it works,

673
00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:03,279
Speaker 1: it has to be, and I think it speaks this

674
00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:07,360
Speaker 1: this truth that nobody's perfect and growth is all about

675
00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:10,959
Speaker 1: evolving and changing and totally being cool with the fact

676
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:12,359
Speaker 1: that at one point you had no idea what you're

677
00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:14,880
Speaker 1: talking about, or weren't skilled or weren't experienced. Yeah, and

678
00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:17,080
Speaker 1: I'm not you know, in the hunting space too, and

679
00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:20,200
Speaker 1: especially in the in the hunting media space for a

680
00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:24,280
Speaker 1: long time and and even probably now like you, weren't

681
00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:27,480
Speaker 1: allowed to be popular or influential unless you were an

682
00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:31,040
Speaker 1: expert and and unless you put yourself out there as

683
00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:35,719
Speaker 1: I'm an expert um. And that was important because you know,

684
00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:39,040
Speaker 1: people need to hear from people that are experts in

685
00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:42,680
Speaker 1: the actual act of going hunting, because you need that.

686
00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:44,799
Speaker 1: I mean you need not you know, there's no way

687
00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:48,480
Speaker 1: to gather all the knowledge for um, for archery without

688
00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:51,000
Speaker 1: somebody like John Dudley telling you how to how to

689
00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:52,719
Speaker 1: tune your bow and how to shoot it and how

690
00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:54,560
Speaker 1: to take care of it, how to how to hown

691
00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:57,760
Speaker 1: your skill. I think I watched this video yesterday. Seriously,

692
00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:01,839
Speaker 1: I'm yeah, I'm I'm in the knock on nation man,

693
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:04,680
Speaker 1: because because I really do want to get better at

694
00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:08,719
Speaker 1: that specifically. But we should hold up guys like that, right.

695
00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:13,399
Speaker 1: But I think now it seems there's two things happening. One,

696
00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:17,080
Speaker 1: I think social media allows anybody to gather followers for

697
00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:22,600
Speaker 1: you know, virtuous or otherwise reasons, reasons that will not

698
00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:25,800
Speaker 1: be listed on this but also people that aren't experts,

699
00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:30,440
Speaker 1: that just have interesting perspectives or are are like intrigued

700
00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:34,000
Speaker 1: by what we do, are able to then also gather

701
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:38,120
Speaker 1: folks around what they are. So it's starting to diversify

702
00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:40,480
Speaker 1: the type of information people can get. And it doesn't

703
00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:45,400
Speaker 1: always have to be um of self reclaim expert telling

704
00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:47,920
Speaker 1: you exactly how to do something. You can expand your

705
00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:50,360
Speaker 1: knowledge in other ways well, And the experts will always

706
00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:55,160
Speaker 1: tell you that they're constantly learning, they're constantly tweaked defining

707
00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:58,640
Speaker 1: their perspectives. I mean, that's one of the things that

708
00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:01,200
Speaker 1: I revert back to being somebody who spent a lot

709
00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:03,799
Speaker 1: of time in the science academic world. It's like those

710
00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:08,640
Speaker 1: professors every year are trying to improve their previous work.

711
00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:13,879
Speaker 1: And that's the those the underpinnings of scientific exploration. Right,

712
00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:17,799
Speaker 1: You're always improving, and you realize that you put something

713
00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:22,279
Speaker 1: out in the world, as quote unquote truce, there is

714
00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:25,640
Speaker 1: a high chance and you, as a scientist, are dedicated

715
00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:28,160
Speaker 1: to that chance of it being wrong. That's a beautiful Yeah,

716
00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:30,640
Speaker 1: that seeming to be the beauty about science is like

717
00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:34,080
Speaker 1: you're going to be wrong a lot, and that's almost

718
00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:36,080
Speaker 1: the point of it. That is the point of it,

719
00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:39,200
Speaker 1: is that you stand on the shoulders of your predecessors. Yeah. Yeah,

720
00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:44,520
Speaker 1: scientific discoveries is this game of who's wrong next totally

721
00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:46,960
Speaker 1: and and to what degree? To what degree? How how

722
00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:49,920
Speaker 1: wrong are you right? And that's and I think when

723
00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:53,799
Speaker 1: we talk about wildlife management, I think it's important to

724
00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:58,960
Speaker 1: remind people that when a wildlife professional says something about

725
00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:02,160
Speaker 1: an ecosystem or a population of animals, they are doing

726
00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:08,120
Speaker 1: their best job, presumably to interpret something that has identifiable

727
00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:13,400
Speaker 1: unknowns and has probabilities that they can't control, and drivers

728
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:16,120
Speaker 1: they can't control, and things that they're predicting. And in

729
00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:19,080
Speaker 1: the scientific world, we have when somebody says it's significant

730
00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:23,720
Speaker 1: significant ice loss, significant declines of population you are using

731
00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:29,160
Speaker 1: this thing called the confidence interval. So you're saying this happened,

732
00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:33,160
Speaker 1: and I am confident. This is why there's that five

733
00:39:33,239 --> 00:39:37,200
Speaker 1: percent that is like freaking the X factor. That could

734
00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:40,719
Speaker 1: be anything that could just totally ruin your study. And

735
00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:43,839
Speaker 1: that is an inherent part of the process. So when

736
00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:47,160
Speaker 1: people say things, there's a everybody's admitting out the gates

737
00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:51,080
Speaker 1: there's a chance five at least that you are totally wrong,

738
00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:53,440
Speaker 1: or you are wrong to a certain degree. I say

739
00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:56,320
Speaker 1: that'd be a good way to live your life everything.

740
00:39:57,560 --> 00:40:00,920
Speaker 1: I might write that on the white board. I'm sure

741
00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:04,200
Speaker 1: I'm right about what I'm telling you, right always, But

742
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:07,640
Speaker 1: I think that's the most most that's a high. That's

743
00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:10,360
Speaker 1: that's on a good day. Mostly it's a fifty fifty.

744
00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:13,759
Speaker 1: But I'm that confident. But you know, I think that's

745
00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:15,600
Speaker 1: you know, it will be a good way to approach

746
00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:19,440
Speaker 1: all things. I think, especially wildlife is so unpredictable, and

747
00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:23,880
Speaker 1: nature is so unpredictable. You know, you just have to

748
00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:28,399
Speaker 1: identify trends and identify how things you like you said,

749
00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:32,960
Speaker 1: use history too to guide you well. And you know,

750
00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:34,920
Speaker 1: as we all know, we all have our hunting spots

751
00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:36,799
Speaker 1: and like the place that you hunt down the road

752
00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:39,440
Speaker 1: is different than place you hunt two counties over, and

753
00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:43,919
Speaker 1: that is an indication that ecosystems change every space and time. Yeah,

754
00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:45,480
Speaker 1: and I think that's, you know, one of the more

755
00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:50,520
Speaker 1: successful ventures around the successful parts of our model of conservation.

756
00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:52,480
Speaker 1: So if you look at the North American mileth Conservation,

757
00:40:52,520 --> 00:40:59,480
Speaker 1: it says very um. It says wildlife belongs to everyone,

758
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:02,640
Speaker 1: held in trust by the states, and what the states

759
00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:06,320
Speaker 1: will then do is use science and wild if biology

760
00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:10,800
Speaker 1: to determine how best to manage that wildlife. And I

761
00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:14,920
Speaker 1: think that's something I've always come back to. Is you know,

762
00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:16,840
Speaker 1: if if I would ask you, and I don't know

763
00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:19,640
Speaker 1: near as much as you, um, but I'll have to

764
00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:24,799
Speaker 1: ask you this question, why do you think when do

765
00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:26,600
Speaker 1: you think do you think the North American model of

766
00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:30,200
Speaker 1: wildlife controvation has been successful? Your answer would be yes,

767
00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:34,840
Speaker 1: absolutely great Now again, yeah, we're friends again. Uh. The

768
00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:38,600
Speaker 1: second question in there is why, Like at its heart,

769
00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:40,439
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm sure there's many, many reasons, but why

770
00:41:40,880 --> 00:41:44,480
Speaker 1: if you had to give one, I think the hy

771
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:47,440
Speaker 1: is illustrated in our successes. I mean, we have brought

772
00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:53,840
Speaker 1: species back from the brink of extinction big like mega fauna, bison, wolves, ungulus,

773
00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:56,120
Speaker 1: you know, white tailed deer. There was a point where

774
00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:01,160
Speaker 1: King Ranch and Texas was sending year into the southeast.

775
00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:03,600
Speaker 1: Now we have more white tailed deer on the continent

776
00:42:03,600 --> 00:42:06,759
Speaker 1: than ever before, maybe in his history. I think looking

777
00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:10,200
Speaker 1: at the successes and is an indication the models working. Um,

778
00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:12,240
Speaker 1: Teddy Roosevelt try to come out and shoot a bison,

779
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:15,400
Speaker 1: you had trouble finding one? Yeah, what's what's the U?

780
00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:18,520
Speaker 1: The quote is I was never in sight of a

781
00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:20,920
Speaker 1: live one and out of sight of a dead one,

782
00:42:21,480 --> 00:42:25,400
Speaker 1: you know. So I think they're in lies the the

783
00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:28,680
Speaker 1: impact of that model on North America. Um. You know,

784
00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:33,240
Speaker 1: we're also blessed to have political, you know, relatively stable

785
00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:37,440
Speaker 1: political and social landscapes, economic landscapes, economic landscapes. I think

786
00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:40,399
Speaker 1: a lot of other countries that come to mind where

787
00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:43,680
Speaker 1: a wildlife are Dwin blame is is maybe not necessarily

788
00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:47,000
Speaker 1: a function of lack of effort, but lack of stability

789
00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:50,799
Speaker 1: across those different landscapes. Um. So we kind of have

790
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:53,560
Speaker 1: like the suite of drivers, I think has given us

791
00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:57,520
Speaker 1: the opportunity to leverage that model and and be successful.

792
00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:01,560
Speaker 1: I think also we have a culture and American culture

793
00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:07,000
Speaker 1: that truly does value the outdoors, that you know, do

794
00:43:07,239 --> 00:43:11,040
Speaker 1: value public lands and wildlife. So there's that social incentive

795
00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:14,400
Speaker 1: to kind of push science and push conservation. But we

796
00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:17,400
Speaker 1: also have an amazing, um, you know, body of checks

797
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:20,880
Speaker 1: and balances. Right. Science is there to inform the way

798
00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:26,040
Speaker 1: that policies are incorporated into law, and we also have

799
00:43:26,080 --> 00:43:30,120
Speaker 1: a legal framework that says are these policies being done

800
00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:33,360
Speaker 1: in a legal way through different acts, whether it's the

801
00:43:33,560 --> 00:43:37,400
Speaker 1: s A or the Clean Water Clean Air Act. Um. So,

802
00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:38,880
Speaker 1: I think we we've done a good job. And I

803
00:43:38,920 --> 00:43:41,440
Speaker 1: think you know, the fact that we still have the

804
00:43:41,520 --> 00:43:44,920
Speaker 1: Yellowstone River cranking out clean water filled with trout, and

805
00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:48,319
Speaker 1: we have herds of elk and you know, flocks of

806
00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:51,040
Speaker 1: birds flying overhead, is we're doing a pretty darn good

807
00:43:51,080 --> 00:43:54,799
Speaker 1: job given the circumstances. Yeah, I mean, yeah, given the circumstances. Right,

808
00:43:54,840 --> 00:43:56,880
Speaker 1: I mean, I think what I always wondered about our

809
00:43:56,880 --> 00:43:59,440
Speaker 1: mild conservation, which obviously, when we talk about little North

810
00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:01,879
Speaker 1: American math of conservation, we should say that that wasn't

811
00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:05,279
Speaker 1: a thing until the eighties when Dr Valarious Geist and

812
00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:08,360
Speaker 1: folks like Shane my Owny decide we need to codify

813
00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:12,960
Speaker 1: it and call it something. Um. But when we talk

814
00:44:13,040 --> 00:44:16,840
Speaker 1: about it, you know, I wonder, you just I always

815
00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:19,800
Speaker 1: wondered what you know it was. It was a reaction

816
00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:22,360
Speaker 1: to a problem, right, it was medicine to an illness.

817
00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:29,280
Speaker 1: And so will there be a time in our society

818
00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:31,879
Speaker 1: again where we're ill enough that we need to create

819
00:44:31,880 --> 00:44:34,759
Speaker 1: a new medicine? You know, right now we're fine, I

820
00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:40,759
Speaker 1: would say, I would say relatively fine in terms of wildlife, um,

821
00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:44,959
Speaker 1: relative to where we've been. Sure, you know, I wonder

822
00:44:44,960 --> 00:44:46,600
Speaker 1: if they will ever be time again, whether it will

823
00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:49,320
Speaker 1: be so ill that we need to, you know, create

824
00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:52,319
Speaker 1: some new medicine. I think so. I mean, the ESA

825
00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:54,399
Speaker 1: came about in seventies three, It wasn't that long ago,

826
00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:57,000
Speaker 1: and those are like that's our parents hera, yeah, you know,

827
00:44:57,320 --> 00:45:00,719
Speaker 1: I mean at that point, a lot of species we're

828
00:45:00,719 --> 00:45:04,400
Speaker 1: pretty much close to gone. Our oceans are dealing with

829
00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:06,560
Speaker 1: some serious things, a lot of them that we can't control.

830
00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:08,879
Speaker 1: It's it's one thing to manage an elk population within

831
00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:11,680
Speaker 1: the borders of our country. It's another thing to manage

832
00:45:12,040 --> 00:45:17,719
Speaker 1: Pacific salmon that are using waters from the Korean Peninsula

833
00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:20,600
Speaker 1: all the way to you know, southern California perhaps in

834
00:45:20,600 --> 00:45:25,440
Speaker 1: some cases. So I think there will be remedies and

835
00:45:25,440 --> 00:45:29,040
Speaker 1: and prescriptions that need to come about to address our

836
00:45:29,120 --> 00:45:32,000
Speaker 1: changing planet and these changing threats to our wildlife and

837
00:45:32,120 --> 00:45:35,480
Speaker 1: natural spaces. UM. Is there any you think that are

838
00:45:35,520 --> 00:45:38,200
Speaker 1: broad enough that would have the same effect that this

839
00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:41,560
Speaker 1: that model has had as they're going to even on

840
00:45:41,600 --> 00:45:45,000
Speaker 1: a conceptual level, it's worked. Well, yeah, I mean it's

841
00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:50,680
Speaker 1: it's it's um. It's a complicated, UM issue. But one

842
00:45:50,719 --> 00:45:54,000
Speaker 1: that comes to mind is the Bristol Bay Watershed. I mean,

843
00:45:54,080 --> 00:45:57,440
Speaker 1: there was a bill, a measure, ballot measure one that

844
00:45:57,640 --> 00:46:02,600
Speaker 1: failed in Alaska this midterm election that would have past

845
00:46:02,760 --> 00:46:05,960
Speaker 1: legislation to make it quite a bit more difficult to

846
00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:12,239
Speaker 1: develop or create minds or do make big changes to

847
00:46:12,280 --> 00:46:16,280
Speaker 1: the landscape and Bristol Bays Watershed. Um. Bristol Bays Watershed

848
00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:20,080
Speaker 1: is the last real home to a robust salmon population

849
00:46:20,160 --> 00:46:24,040
Speaker 1: where millions of fish return every year. I think that's shortsighted,

850
00:46:24,320 --> 00:46:26,640
Speaker 1: you know. I think it's it's like a mini es

851
00:46:26,760 --> 00:46:29,080
Speaker 1: A that should be that I believe should have been

852
00:46:29,080 --> 00:46:33,640
Speaker 1: passed to protect something that you can't bring back, that

853
00:46:33,640 --> 00:46:35,960
Speaker 1: that's impossible, Like you can restore a creek in your

854
00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:38,000
Speaker 1: local community, and maybe you get like to salmon that

855
00:46:38,080 --> 00:46:40,160
Speaker 1: come back, you know, the East Coast, they're taking down

856
00:46:40,920 --> 00:46:43,480
Speaker 1: historic mill dams in Atlantic Salmon are coming back in

857
00:46:43,520 --> 00:46:47,600
Speaker 1: some cases, but not ten million Atlantic salmon. I mean,

858
00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:50,040
Speaker 1: we have millions of fish coming to Bristo Way Watershed

859
00:46:50,320 --> 00:46:54,359
Speaker 1: and all the wildlife that rely on that ecosystem. Um. So,

860
00:46:54,440 --> 00:46:56,520
Speaker 1: I do think there will be times in history in

861
00:46:56,520 --> 00:47:00,400
Speaker 1: the near future, if not the current day, where do

862
00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:06,680
Speaker 1: you have opportunities to pass legislation and policy that can

863
00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:13,000
Speaker 1: have sweeping, you know, benefits ecosystems that are very much imperiled. Um. Yeah.

864
00:47:13,040 --> 00:47:15,400
Speaker 1: And again it's it's it's one thing to manage a

865
00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:18,160
Speaker 1: landlocked population of elk. It's another thing to manage a

866
00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:22,000
Speaker 1: migratory bird, or a or a fish, um or animals

867
00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:26,279
Speaker 1: that rely on an ocean, an international ocean. Yeah. I

868
00:47:26,280 --> 00:47:29,040
Speaker 1: think I was, just as you're talking, googling the North

869
00:47:29,040 --> 00:47:31,440
Speaker 1: American Midle of conservation because I feel like I've never

870
00:47:33,239 --> 00:47:35,440
Speaker 1: on this podcast. We've always talked about it, but we've

871
00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:38,200
Speaker 1: never kind of went through it right in much detail.

872
00:47:38,600 --> 00:47:41,280
Speaker 1: Um So, let's do that in a little bit of detail.

873
00:47:41,960 --> 00:47:43,960
Speaker 1: So the tenants I could I can rattle off like

874
00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:46,160
Speaker 1: maybe five of the seven tenants, but I haven't in

875
00:47:46,160 --> 00:47:48,040
Speaker 1: front of me now, so I'll just rattle them off.

876
00:47:48,800 --> 00:47:52,799
Speaker 1: This is the the core principles of this model, of

877
00:47:52,840 --> 00:47:55,520
Speaker 1: our model conservation are are built around some tenants, and

878
00:47:55,520 --> 00:47:58,359
Speaker 1: there's seven of them. I just reading to you. Wildlife

879
00:47:58,400 --> 00:48:02,359
Speaker 1: is public trust resources, which we've discussed already, elimination of

880
00:48:02,440 --> 00:48:07,680
Speaker 1: markets for game, which we've talked around already, allocation of

881
00:48:07,719 --> 00:48:11,520
Speaker 1: wildlife by law, which we've talked about already. Wildlife should

882
00:48:11,560 --> 00:48:14,640
Speaker 1: only be killed for a legitimate purpose, which we've certainly

883
00:48:14,640 --> 00:48:17,960
Speaker 1: talked about. You know, I would say mining, it's not

884
00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:20,719
Speaker 1: a legitimate purpose for killing wildlife. Well, and there's a

885
00:48:20,719 --> 00:48:24,560
Speaker 1: lot of repercussions, right, you build a highway or you

886
00:48:24,560 --> 00:48:29,439
Speaker 1: you frack a landscape, and that has repercussive implications. Absolutely does.

887
00:48:30,719 --> 00:48:34,840
Speaker 1: Wildlife is considered an international resource. Science is the proper

888
00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:38,280
Speaker 1: tool for discharge of wildlife policy sure makes you happy,

889
00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:42,120
Speaker 1: me too. And then the democracy of hunting. So I

890
00:48:42,120 --> 00:48:46,480
Speaker 1: mean that you know, those are just overarching tenants. I mean,

891
00:48:46,520 --> 00:48:49,280
Speaker 1: there's more details for each of those. But if if

892
00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:51,400
Speaker 1: you're out there and we're talking about this model, and

893
00:48:51,440 --> 00:48:55,759
Speaker 1: you're not aware. There's your starting point. Go and learn

894
00:48:55,800 --> 00:48:59,640
Speaker 1: about those tenants and try to get yourself educated on

895
00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:02,880
Speaker 1: actually how the success story came to be, because I

896
00:49:02,880 --> 00:49:06,040
Speaker 1: think it's important, absolutely, And I think having that context

897
00:49:06,040 --> 00:49:09,600
Speaker 1: and also that framework to inject your personal experience into

898
00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:14,120
Speaker 1: gives um, it gives meaning to I think the way

899
00:49:14,160 --> 00:49:17,000
Speaker 1: that you approach your time hunting, or your time get

900
00:49:17,040 --> 00:49:21,319
Speaker 1: an advocate, or your time just being part of the community. Yeah. Yeah,

901
00:49:21,360 --> 00:49:24,239
Speaker 1: and then and then it informs things like the E

902
00:49:24,520 --> 00:49:28,080
Speaker 1: S A and and and some of the legislation you'll

903
00:49:28,080 --> 00:49:29,920
Speaker 1: see on ballots if you have an understanding of like

904
00:49:30,640 --> 00:49:34,680
Speaker 1: what what makes a successful And again, folks that are

905
00:49:34,760 --> 00:49:41,600
Speaker 1: voting vote on these complex value system based decisions. Um.

906
00:49:41,640 --> 00:49:43,879
Speaker 1: But I think having a general you know, as you're

907
00:49:43,960 --> 00:49:48,120
Speaker 1: voting on something like that, you know, Connecticut's UM amendment

908
00:49:48,160 --> 00:49:50,480
Speaker 1: to or the the amendment for Bristol Bay in alask

909
00:49:50,480 --> 00:49:52,000
Speaker 1: because like if you if those things come up on

910
00:49:52,360 --> 00:49:55,919
Speaker 1: mid term elections or whenever they come up. Um, having

911
00:49:55,960 --> 00:49:58,120
Speaker 1: a general idea of the framework of our model of

912
00:49:58,160 --> 00:50:01,200
Speaker 1: conservation can even a je real idea, even if it's

913
00:50:01,239 --> 00:50:04,040
Speaker 1: not as nuanced as yours, even a general idea can

914
00:50:04,080 --> 00:50:07,600
Speaker 1: help you test you know, put that seven tenants to

915
00:50:07,680 --> 00:50:10,160
Speaker 1: test when you see something on a ballot, like is

916
00:50:10,200 --> 00:50:14,960
Speaker 1: this in line with these seven things? And it gets complicated,

917
00:50:15,040 --> 00:50:18,520
Speaker 1: right because you know, we just um, we had the

918
00:50:18,520 --> 00:50:21,319
Speaker 1: Grizzly Bear decision, and we've had some other big decisions

919
00:50:21,320 --> 00:50:24,080
Speaker 1: like the Bristol Bay decision. I mean, these are decisions

920
00:50:24,120 --> 00:50:28,600
Speaker 1: that are made that lean on science, but also are

921
00:50:28,760 --> 00:50:33,880
Speaker 1: determined through the lens of law, and law by nature

922
00:50:33,960 --> 00:50:38,120
Speaker 1: is interpreted. Right. Our constitution is pretty darn vague, but

923
00:50:38,360 --> 00:50:43,359
Speaker 1: our our country works, our world as Americans functions through

924
00:50:43,480 --> 00:50:49,839
Speaker 1: the interpretation of that law. So that's good and bad

925
00:50:49,920 --> 00:50:52,640
Speaker 1: for the people who disagree with it in whatever case

926
00:50:52,880 --> 00:50:56,200
Speaker 1: we can think of. Um. But I also think it

927
00:50:56,200 --> 00:50:59,560
Speaker 1: provides checks and balances, you know, and I think having

928
00:50:59,680 --> 00:51:03,000
Speaker 1: faith in the process, even though sometimes doesn't come out

929
00:51:03,320 --> 00:51:05,279
Speaker 1: the way you'd like it to, you know. I think

930
00:51:05,280 --> 00:51:09,080
Speaker 1: about the Alaska issue that didn't pass, but having worked

931
00:51:09,120 --> 00:51:11,600
Speaker 1: with some of the folks behind the campaign to promote

932
00:51:11,800 --> 00:51:15,239
Speaker 1: Measure one, they look at that losses an opportunity to

933
00:51:15,239 --> 00:51:19,560
Speaker 1: build more ground swell and do better the next time. Um,

934
00:51:19,600 --> 00:51:21,000
Speaker 1: you know, and if we want to get into it,

935
00:51:21,200 --> 00:51:23,080
Speaker 1: you know, we can. But like the Grizzly Bear thing,

936
00:51:23,160 --> 00:51:25,360
Speaker 1: but we're going to yeah, you know, I think I

937
00:51:25,360 --> 00:51:28,839
Speaker 1: think that's why, you know, talking through all these things

938
00:51:28,880 --> 00:51:33,600
Speaker 1: and like a very you know, feet is great. It's

939
00:51:33,640 --> 00:51:36,880
Speaker 1: easy to do. But I think the Grizzly Bearer decision,

940
00:51:37,680 --> 00:51:40,040
Speaker 1: I think both sides of that decision want to make it.

941
00:51:40,760 --> 00:51:44,240
Speaker 1: We want to turn it into a slippery slope. Yeah,

942
00:51:44,560 --> 00:51:47,360
Speaker 1: And I hate slippery slopes because I think slipper slopes

943
00:51:47,360 --> 00:51:52,320
Speaker 1: are fucking lazy except slipping slide, except as a sprinkler

944
00:51:52,320 --> 00:51:57,960
Speaker 1: in it. But I think slippery slopes. I first came

945
00:51:58,000 --> 00:52:06,480
Speaker 1: to this opinion around gun rights, right, I truly believe

946
00:52:06,520 --> 00:52:11,040
Speaker 1: in in I believe it wholeheartedly that gun rights are

947
00:52:11,120 --> 00:52:14,279
Speaker 1: important part of my freedom as an American. Like, I

948
00:52:14,640 --> 00:52:16,440
Speaker 1: believe it, and I've thought it through. And it's not

949
00:52:16,520 --> 00:52:20,040
Speaker 1: because I like thirty round magazines, but it's part of

950
00:52:20,080 --> 00:52:23,200
Speaker 1: defending my family in any situation that may come up,

951
00:52:23,400 --> 00:52:27,960
Speaker 1: all right, And so when somebody challenges that, it's easy

952
00:52:27,960 --> 00:52:29,200
Speaker 1: for me to fall back on it. Well, it's a

953
00:52:29,200 --> 00:52:31,240
Speaker 1: slippery slope. If you take this one little thing away,

954
00:52:31,280 --> 00:52:35,600
Speaker 1: then then all of that may fall. But again, I

955
00:52:35,680 --> 00:52:39,239
Speaker 1: just think that's lazy. And the more passionate you are

956
00:52:39,280 --> 00:52:41,120
Speaker 1: about an issue, the more you feel like it goes

957
00:52:41,160 --> 00:52:43,640
Speaker 1: to your freedoms and your humanity or your citizenship of

958
00:52:43,680 --> 00:52:46,359
Speaker 1: this country, I think, the more you fall back on

959
00:52:47,320 --> 00:52:51,719
Speaker 1: the rather lazy, an idealistic, slippery slope. Don't take any

960
00:52:51,760 --> 00:52:55,320
Speaker 1: of it because I need all of it, right. Um,

961
00:52:55,360 --> 00:52:58,800
Speaker 1: But that's not to your to your That can't always

962
00:52:58,800 --> 00:53:01,520
Speaker 1: be right the it happens, and it doesn't have to

963
00:53:01,560 --> 00:53:05,040
Speaker 1: be a reaction, right, um. You know, and I think

964
00:53:05,080 --> 00:53:09,560
Speaker 1: the grizzly Um, so let's set up the grizzly thing. Yeah,

965
00:53:09,600 --> 00:53:11,960
Speaker 1: let's take as far back as your knowledge will will

966
00:53:12,000 --> 00:53:14,480
Speaker 1: allow us to go. And I'll hold out shine in

967
00:53:14,560 --> 00:53:17,320
Speaker 1: if I know something. But yeah, and just as a

968
00:53:17,320 --> 00:53:19,960
Speaker 1: as a disclaimer, you know, I'm an ecologist, but not

969
00:53:20,000 --> 00:53:22,080
Speaker 1: a grizzly bear biologist. And I'm just a guy with

970
00:53:22,120 --> 00:53:24,520
Speaker 1: a podcast. I don't know anything. So I've done my

971
00:53:24,560 --> 00:53:26,520
Speaker 1: I've done my homework, you know, as best as I can.

972
00:53:26,600 --> 00:53:29,760
Speaker 1: There's obviously more to be done, but the general gist

973
00:53:29,760 --> 00:53:35,440
Speaker 1: of it is that ye Yessa comes about. Um. The ESA,

974
00:53:35,520 --> 00:53:38,640
Speaker 1: the Endangered Species Act is an act that intends to

975
00:53:38,880 --> 00:53:42,600
Speaker 1: identify species that are threatened or endangered threatened species or

976
00:53:42,600 --> 00:53:47,040
Speaker 1: species that are at risk of becoming close to extinction,

977
00:53:47,760 --> 00:53:50,080
Speaker 1: And how do they determine that. It's going to be

978
00:53:50,120 --> 00:53:53,880
Speaker 1: looking at number of individuals, number, amount of critical habitat

979
00:53:53,920 --> 00:53:59,919
Speaker 1: that's available, um pending or foreseeable threats to those populations,

980
00:54:00,040 --> 00:54:03,080
Speaker 1: species at large or subspecies. Does any of that have

981
00:54:03,200 --> 00:54:08,880
Speaker 1: to do with their historic population numbers? It does, but

982
00:54:09,920 --> 00:54:13,960
Speaker 1: within that context, they're looking at available critical habitat. So bison,

983
00:54:14,000 --> 00:54:18,520
Speaker 1: for example, bison would have existed from you know, ah,

984
00:54:18,680 --> 00:54:21,960
Speaker 1: the Canadian border to the Rocky mountain front, maybe a

985
00:54:21,960 --> 00:54:25,040
Speaker 1: little bit west of the Rockies in some places down

986
00:54:25,080 --> 00:54:29,040
Speaker 1: to uh to Mexico over to the Mississippi River. So

987
00:54:29,080 --> 00:54:31,440
Speaker 1: that would have been there like historic range to my knowledge,

988
00:54:31,440 --> 00:54:35,520
Speaker 1: and and they continuous, you know, lower forty eight. Obviously

989
00:54:36,600 --> 00:54:40,200
Speaker 1: bison are a fraction what they were. But we're not

990
00:54:40,560 --> 00:54:43,360
Speaker 1: you know, bison conservation or restoration. Granted they're not listed.

991
00:54:43,440 --> 00:54:45,919
Speaker 1: This is maybe not a good example, but point being,

992
00:54:46,360 --> 00:54:49,320
Speaker 1: they're not looking at putting them back across that available habitat.

993
00:54:49,520 --> 00:54:52,160
Speaker 1: They're saying, where can we put bison yea where they

994
00:54:52,160 --> 00:54:54,600
Speaker 1: can thrive once again? And right? And what makes sense?

995
00:54:55,160 --> 00:54:57,440
Speaker 1: So when we talk about you know, wolves, it's the

996
00:54:57,480 --> 00:55:00,360
Speaker 1: same thing. They're not trying to reintroduce wolves to tire

997
00:55:00,440 --> 00:55:04,480
Speaker 1: lower forty eight. They're saying wolves, uh, you know, the

998
00:55:04,560 --> 00:55:07,919
Speaker 1: upper Peninsula of Michigan are listed. Where can we put

999
00:55:08,160 --> 00:55:11,520
Speaker 1: wolves where there's habitat that's available. So you're taking an

1000
00:55:11,520 --> 00:55:17,360
Speaker 1: inventory of animals that exist, habitat that exists or could exist,

1001
00:55:18,040 --> 00:55:23,880
Speaker 1: and and then creating basically a blueprint to make opportunities

1002
00:55:23,880 --> 00:55:27,040
Speaker 1: for more animals to uh you know produced, be produced,

1003
00:55:27,400 --> 00:55:30,200
Speaker 1: and to have that available habit to be occupied. And

1004
00:55:30,200 --> 00:55:33,239
Speaker 1: the important thing about putting more animals on in the

1005
00:55:33,360 --> 00:55:35,960
Speaker 1: in the in the mix and having more habitat, and

1006
00:55:36,040 --> 00:55:39,279
Speaker 1: then you have more distinct populations. And the reason why

1007
00:55:39,400 --> 00:55:42,760
Speaker 1: distinct populations are important is because then you get genetic diversity.

1008
00:55:43,280 --> 00:55:45,399
Speaker 1: If you have an island of inbreads, they're not gonna

1009
00:55:45,400 --> 00:55:50,360
Speaker 1: be very resilient to UM issues that could drive declients

1010
00:55:50,400 --> 00:55:54,400
Speaker 1: that population. Whether it's exactly so you're looking at it

1011
00:55:54,520 --> 00:55:58,400
Speaker 1: through this like matrix of of UM kind of Uh.

1012
00:55:58,560 --> 00:56:00,960
Speaker 1: It's like a safety net, right, More animals a better

1013
00:56:00,960 --> 00:56:04,719
Speaker 1: and more populations, the better diversity is the best UM.

1014
00:56:04,800 --> 00:56:08,000
Speaker 1: So with the grizzly bears, you know pre seventy three

1015
00:56:08,239 --> 00:56:10,240
Speaker 1: you would have had grizzly bears would have been extinct

1016
00:56:10,239 --> 00:56:12,480
Speaker 1: in California, you would have had a lower forty eight

1017
00:56:12,480 --> 00:56:14,560
Speaker 1: population that was I don't know the numbers off the

1018
00:56:14,560 --> 00:56:16,640
Speaker 1: top of my head, but you know, to the point

1019
00:56:16,640 --> 00:56:19,560
Speaker 1: they needed to be listed. It was in the hundreds, right,

1020
00:56:19,600 --> 00:56:22,600
Speaker 1: I mean the hundred and thirties. Maybe, yeah, I bet

1021
00:56:22,600 --> 00:56:25,880
Speaker 1: you that's close to it. Um but depleted, you know,

1022
00:56:25,920 --> 00:56:30,200
Speaker 1: I would venture to say, like well over with very

1023
00:56:30,200 --> 00:56:33,520
Speaker 1: little available habitat relative to what was once available pre

1024
00:56:33,600 --> 00:56:36,839
Speaker 1: European settlement. So you have seventy three, yes, a comes

1025
00:56:36,840 --> 00:56:40,480
Speaker 1: about I believe it was seventy five they were listed.

1026
00:56:42,040 --> 00:56:45,560
Speaker 1: Then something interesting happened in seventy eight where there was

1027
00:56:45,600 --> 00:56:48,040
Speaker 1: an amendment made to the Danger Species Act that allowed

1028
00:56:48,400 --> 00:56:53,759
Speaker 1: um distinct population segments to be listed are unlisted. That

1029
00:56:53,880 --> 00:56:56,080
Speaker 1: was the year that gray wolf was added to the ESA.

1030
00:56:57,080 --> 00:57:00,760
Speaker 1: So people are probably thinking, okay, well, with the gray wolf,

1031
00:57:00,800 --> 00:57:03,480
Speaker 1: you can have a distinct population that was listed as

1032
00:57:03,600 --> 00:57:08,200
Speaker 1: endangered in the Upper Peninsula Michigan area, and then you

1033
00:57:08,200 --> 00:57:10,759
Speaker 1: can have gray wolves in Montana that you can hunt

1034
00:57:10,840 --> 00:57:12,720
Speaker 1: and are managed by the states, and they're not listed.

1035
00:57:13,360 --> 00:57:17,080
Speaker 1: Grizzly bears, to my understanding were listed before that amendment

1036
00:57:17,160 --> 00:57:20,560
Speaker 1: was made, so they were listed as a sub, as

1037
00:57:20,560 --> 00:57:23,800
Speaker 1: a species, as a lower forty eight collective. Because I

1038
00:57:23,840 --> 00:57:25,800
Speaker 1: think that becomes that would become a big part of

1039
00:57:25,840 --> 00:57:31,560
Speaker 1: this conversation around those distinct populations and how we managed

1040
00:57:31,720 --> 00:57:34,960
Speaker 1: and so so I guess you would posit that it's

1041
00:57:34,960 --> 00:57:38,200
Speaker 1: not that's the fact. That's the reason why this is

1042
00:57:38,200 --> 00:57:42,000
Speaker 1: a larger issue. It's complicated. There's you know, I have

1043
00:57:42,320 --> 00:57:48,440
Speaker 1: the entire printed out UM decision by We're gonna turn

1044
00:57:48,440 --> 00:57:50,720
Speaker 1: on some elevator museum and have you read the entire

1045
00:57:50,920 --> 00:57:53,880
Speaker 1: It's only forty something pages. It's not bad, it's not no,

1046
00:57:54,000 --> 00:57:56,360
Speaker 1: and it's actually written. There is some legal jargon, but

1047
00:57:56,400 --> 00:57:58,880
Speaker 1: you can if anybody's listening is interested, you can download

1048
00:57:58,880 --> 00:58:02,240
Speaker 1: this on the internet. UM, it's readily available. It's actually

1049
00:58:02,240 --> 00:58:04,760
Speaker 1: not that complicated. There's you'll skim over some of it

1050
00:58:04,760 --> 00:58:07,800
Speaker 1: doesn't make sense because it's illegal, but there is some uh,

1051
00:58:08,040 --> 00:58:11,520
Speaker 1: some well written stuff in there that anybody would should

1052
00:58:11,520 --> 00:58:16,040
Speaker 1: be able to pull apart and understand. Um. Super informative. UM.

1053
00:58:16,040 --> 00:58:18,600
Speaker 1: But yeah, so this the population segment thing is one

1054
00:58:18,920 --> 00:58:22,880
Speaker 1: aspect UM. So without getting too far ahead of ourselves,

1055
00:58:22,920 --> 00:58:26,520
Speaker 1: grizzy bears were dwindled to a point of needing protection.

1056
00:58:27,080 --> 00:58:29,760
Speaker 1: They're listed they established have protection in seventy three and

1057
00:58:29,760 --> 00:58:32,800
Speaker 1: then seventy they were listed as a species in lower

1058
00:58:32,800 --> 00:58:37,440
Speaker 1: forty eight, Alaska's its own thing. And then population there

1059
00:58:37,440 --> 00:58:43,400
Speaker 1: were some population ecosystems that were identified. Um, I'm gonna

1060
00:58:43,600 --> 00:58:45,560
Speaker 1: kind of butcher this, but the main two that that

1061
00:58:45,800 --> 00:58:51,360
Speaker 1: actually have viable populations are the the Continental Divide population,

1062
00:58:51,400 --> 00:58:53,880
Speaker 1: which is like the Bob and Glacier National Park, and

1063
00:58:53,880 --> 00:58:56,200
Speaker 1: then you have the Good or yells On ecosystem. You

1064
00:58:56,240 --> 00:58:58,600
Speaker 1: also have the cell Kirks and the Cascades, and I

1065
00:58:58,640 --> 00:59:00,960
Speaker 1: believe there's six and full, but really the only two

1066
00:59:01,000 --> 00:59:04,160
Speaker 1: that really matter on like a functional level is the

1067
00:59:04,240 --> 00:59:09,520
Speaker 1: Continental or the Continental Divide and the Greater Yellowstone because

1068
00:59:09,840 --> 00:59:13,920
Speaker 1: between those two populations conservatively there's maybe close to two

1069
00:59:13,920 --> 00:59:21,240
Speaker 1: thousand bears. Those other four ecosystems have handfuls, so they're

1070
00:59:21,240 --> 00:59:25,200
Speaker 1: functionally from like a eco from a species preservation standpoint,

1071
00:59:25,920 --> 00:59:29,480
Speaker 1: are valuable but not being considered, you know, to a

1072
00:59:29,480 --> 00:59:32,760
Speaker 1: certain degree, because it really this this determination, this court

1073
00:59:32,800 --> 00:59:35,960
Speaker 1: case was around the dealist you know, the Greater Yellowstone population.

1074
00:59:37,920 --> 00:59:41,200
Speaker 1: So we get to this point where grizzly bears are

1075
00:59:41,520 --> 00:59:47,160
Speaker 1: relegated to Glacier in the Bob and Yellowstone and the

1076
00:59:47,360 --> 00:59:51,040
Speaker 1: states work in a conjunction of the federal agencies, say

1077
00:59:51,160 --> 00:59:54,520
Speaker 1: we're going to put together a recovery plan, an inter

1078
00:59:54,640 --> 01:00:00,040
Speaker 1: agency group of federal, state, local biologists and constituent and

1079
01:00:00,200 --> 01:00:01,680
Speaker 1: we're gonna try to get these bears back to a

1080
01:00:01,680 --> 01:00:06,560
Speaker 1: place of stability. The Bob population and the Glacier populations,

1081
01:00:13,520 --> 01:00:16,080
Speaker 1: I know, like, um, so yeah, the Bob Marshall is

1082
01:00:16,120 --> 01:00:18,080
Speaker 1: just a little south of Glacier National Park. It's this

1083
01:00:18,160 --> 01:00:22,640
Speaker 1: kind of big swath of pretty wild landscapes so known

1084
01:00:22,680 --> 01:00:28,040
Speaker 1: for its remoteness. Yes, um, and so the Greater Yellasun

1085
01:00:28,080 --> 01:00:34,400
Speaker 1: population gets to a point where the of US Fish

1086
01:00:34,440 --> 01:00:37,920
Speaker 1: and Wildlife and the States Idaho, Wyoming in Montana in

1087
01:00:37,960 --> 01:00:40,920
Speaker 1: this case, say we've got this place. This population a

1088
01:00:40,960 --> 01:00:44,040
Speaker 1: pretty healthy number. You know, we're looking at conservatively seven

1089
01:00:44,080 --> 01:00:47,560
Speaker 1: hundred bears and this is two thousand seven. This I

1090
01:00:47,560 --> 01:00:51,320
Speaker 1: think it happened twice. It was like seven. There were

1091
01:00:51,360 --> 01:00:58,880
Speaker 1: efforts to dealist and those efforts were um stifled. I

1092
01:00:58,880 --> 01:01:00,000
Speaker 1: guess that is the word you could say. You're not

1093
01:01:00,000 --> 01:01:06,440
Speaker 1: stife rejected on various grounds. One of the grounds that

1094
01:01:06,520 --> 01:01:10,800
Speaker 1: comes to mind that that's kind of interesting is the

1095
01:01:10,920 --> 01:01:14,240
Speaker 1: judge saying, we'll wait a second. A lot of grizzly

1096
01:01:14,280 --> 01:01:20,200
Speaker 1: bears in the Greater Yellowstone rely on white bark pine.

1097
01:01:20,840 --> 01:01:26,400
Speaker 1: So what's happening on planet Earth? As we're having in

1098
01:01:26,560 --> 01:01:30,560
Speaker 1: northern Northern Hemisphere ecosystems are having warmer winters, we're having

1099
01:01:30,720 --> 01:01:33,200
Speaker 1: drought in a lot of places, especially in the Inner

1100
01:01:33,200 --> 01:01:37,920
Speaker 1: Mountain West in California for that matter. Um that those

1101
01:01:38,000 --> 01:01:42,560
Speaker 1: dry winters, warm winters and droughts are causing these pines

1102
01:01:42,680 --> 01:01:44,480
Speaker 1: to die. One of the reasons it's because you have

1103
01:01:44,480 --> 01:01:47,120
Speaker 1: a pine beetle that used to be kept in checked

1104
01:01:47,120 --> 01:01:51,000
Speaker 1: by cold winters sub zero that would keep those pine

1105
01:01:51,040 --> 01:01:55,000
Speaker 1: beetles from from proliferating. But now with these warm winters,

1106
01:01:55,360 --> 01:01:59,920
Speaker 1: these pine beetle infestations are killing millions and millions of treats.

1107
01:02:00,000 --> 01:02:02,560
Speaker 1: This happens in other populations too, I know, like moose

1108
01:02:03,440 --> 01:02:07,320
Speaker 1: up north in Minnesota are have been you know, they'll

1109
01:02:07,360 --> 01:02:12,120
Speaker 1: positive that there've been ticks that are alive longer because

1110
01:02:12,120 --> 01:02:16,240
Speaker 1: it's warmer into this summer time. So, yeah, read about

1111
01:02:16,280 --> 01:02:19,160
Speaker 1: that a lot if you really look. Yeah, so these

1112
01:02:19,160 --> 01:02:23,760
Speaker 1: warmer winters are are a big deal and that was

1113
01:02:23,800 --> 01:02:28,120
Speaker 1: something that that uh, the judges used to halt the

1114
01:02:28,160 --> 01:02:32,040
Speaker 1: de listing. Then in time more research was done, it

1115
01:02:32,120 --> 01:02:35,120
Speaker 1: was presented, UM, and that was one of the things

1116
01:02:35,160 --> 01:02:37,440
Speaker 1: that was presented before this court case, the most current

1117
01:02:37,440 --> 01:02:41,600
Speaker 1: one and what the judge and the professionals that were

1118
01:02:41,600 --> 01:02:46,160
Speaker 1: involved in the de listing or the regulatory process determined was, yes,

1119
01:02:46,280 --> 01:02:50,360
Speaker 1: white bark pines are declining throughout their range and we'll

1120
01:02:50,400 --> 01:02:52,920
Speaker 1: talk about the California fires to that's a big thing there.

1121
01:02:52,960 --> 01:02:56,480
Speaker 1: But on the top of grizzly bears, Um, that is true.

1122
01:02:56,680 --> 01:02:59,240
Speaker 1: But we also have found three more throw research that

1123
01:02:59,320 --> 01:03:02,560
Speaker 1: these grizzly bearers are very flexible and in biology called

1124
01:03:02,560 --> 01:03:06,200
Speaker 1: it plastic. They're omnivorous. They can eat anything from a

1125
01:03:06,280 --> 01:03:09,240
Speaker 1: nut to a dead moose, to a berry, to grass

1126
01:03:09,320 --> 01:03:11,680
Speaker 1: to a fish. That's one of the great things about

1127
01:03:11,720 --> 01:03:17,280
Speaker 1: Christy bears. So what's happening is the the biologists said, Okay,

1128
01:03:17,280 --> 01:03:21,840
Speaker 1: well they've actually they're doing well. They've just adapted. So

1129
01:03:21,920 --> 01:03:24,680
Speaker 1: that was kind of checked as addressed. We're moving on

1130
01:03:25,600 --> 01:03:29,840
Speaker 1: in the in this most recent hearing. What the two

1131
01:03:29,880 --> 01:03:33,280
Speaker 1: main things, um, So let's set let's set up some

1132
01:03:33,320 --> 01:03:35,800
Speaker 1: of the history to this, and folks that are UM

1133
01:03:36,080 --> 01:03:38,880
Speaker 1: hopefully listen to this have have some background on this.

1134
01:03:39,000 --> 01:03:46,080
Speaker 1: But there's two essentially two sides, right. There are animal

1135
01:03:46,200 --> 01:03:49,720
Speaker 1: rights activists on one and on the other side there

1136
01:03:49,760 --> 01:03:52,800
Speaker 1: are I mean, I just tell me if I'm wrong,

1137
01:03:52,920 --> 01:03:59,000
Speaker 1: hunters and state game officials from Wyoming on the other.

1138
01:03:59,560 --> 01:04:01,600
Speaker 1: Is that it's about right. Yeah, And i'd hope probably

1139
01:04:01,600 --> 01:04:05,480
Speaker 1: a certain degree. Montana opted to not partake in the YEP.

1140
01:04:05,520 --> 01:04:08,080
Speaker 1: They went on a zero zero tag basis something the

1141
01:04:08,080 --> 01:04:11,200
Speaker 1: guida who had what to one one to my understanding,

1142
01:04:11,200 --> 01:04:13,880
Speaker 1: and well, I mean had twenty two UM. And so

1143
01:04:14,000 --> 01:04:17,560
Speaker 1: you have UM one side of the coin, which is

1144
01:04:18,320 --> 01:04:23,040
Speaker 1: we've expressed as advocates for hunter groups and um biologists

1145
01:04:23,080 --> 01:04:25,720
Speaker 1: state in state game officials for state of Wyoming and

1146
01:04:25,760 --> 01:04:30,920
Speaker 1: Idaho who are saying these populations is created Yelstone populations

1147
01:04:30,960 --> 01:04:34,120
Speaker 1: is at a point where we if if done correctly

1148
01:04:34,760 --> 01:04:38,600
Speaker 1: UM and if done in science and has told us

1149
01:04:38,640 --> 01:04:41,720
Speaker 1: that two is the number based on the current population

1150
01:04:42,440 --> 01:04:47,560
Speaker 1: what we feel UM would be appropriate, and then we

1151
01:04:47,720 --> 01:04:50,400
Speaker 1: can take out a certain number of bears through this

1152
01:04:50,440 --> 01:04:53,920
Speaker 1: tag draw system and it would allow us to and

1153
01:04:53,960 --> 01:04:56,680
Speaker 1: really I think it goes. What you'll see a lot

1154
01:04:56,720 --> 01:05:03,480
Speaker 1: from those folks is um well, like private landowners, ranchers, um,

1155
01:05:04,240 --> 01:05:07,800
Speaker 1: folks that live in those areas complaining about interaction with

1156
01:05:07,840 --> 01:05:10,560
Speaker 1: the grizzly bears right is one of their big ones.

1157
01:05:10,760 --> 01:05:13,760
Speaker 1: And so in the animal rights activistic set up that

1158
01:05:13,840 --> 01:05:17,160
Speaker 1: side like what's that? What are those folks thinking? You know,

1159
01:05:17,160 --> 01:05:23,080
Speaker 1: because there's we can go through. Um well, there's a lot.

1160
01:05:23,320 --> 01:05:25,440
Speaker 1: I'm just trying to think through mind how you approach,

1161
01:05:25,520 --> 01:05:27,880
Speaker 1: but give give the other side of the coin. Yeah,

1162
01:05:27,920 --> 01:05:30,600
Speaker 1: So the other side of the coin is eco tourism,

1163
01:05:30,640 --> 01:05:32,840
Speaker 1: you know, and a lot of people we can't deny

1164
01:05:33,000 --> 01:05:36,840
Speaker 1: go to Yellowstone and Grand Tetons or go horse packing

1165
01:05:36,840 --> 01:05:39,400
Speaker 1: the Bob Marshall and seeing a bear at a safe

1166
01:05:39,480 --> 01:05:42,520
Speaker 1: distance is something that they're after for a photograph or

1167
01:05:42,520 --> 01:05:47,640
Speaker 1: an experience or whatever and their trophy. Um. So there

1168
01:05:47,800 --> 01:05:51,840
Speaker 1: is this conflict of interests where you have a very real,

1169
01:05:52,000 --> 01:05:55,920
Speaker 1: thriving eco tourism industry that none of these states can

1170
01:05:55,920 --> 01:05:58,320
Speaker 1: deny is a huge part of their economy. You also

1171
01:05:58,360 --> 01:06:02,640
Speaker 1: have people who live kind of in the wild urban

1172
01:06:02,760 --> 01:06:06,560
Speaker 1: or not wild urban, but wild kind of rural interface

1173
01:06:06,680 --> 01:06:08,760
Speaker 1: where you have grizzly bears in the backyard. A lot

1174
01:06:08,800 --> 01:06:12,000
Speaker 1: of people are trying to make a living raising livestock

1175
01:06:12,120 --> 01:06:17,280
Speaker 1: or crops or just living there. Um. Then you also

1176
01:06:17,320 --> 01:06:21,760
Speaker 1: have hunters who would like to participate in this very

1177
01:06:21,840 --> 01:06:26,600
Speaker 1: limited you know, this resource that would be very limited,

1178
01:06:26,640 --> 01:06:29,280
Speaker 1: you know, twenty three animals in this case. Um. And

1179
01:06:29,280 --> 01:06:31,360
Speaker 1: then there's probably a certain group of people who feel

1180
01:06:31,400 --> 01:06:33,440
Speaker 1: like this is a threat to their ability to hunt

1181
01:06:33,680 --> 01:06:35,880
Speaker 1: or a threat to their the way they identify with

1182
01:06:35,960 --> 01:06:38,960
Speaker 1: hunting as a as an opportunity that we are privileged

1183
01:06:39,000 --> 01:06:42,360
Speaker 1: to have here. And I think it's it's um, we

1184
01:06:42,360 --> 01:06:44,960
Speaker 1: can take both sides. But and I'd like to I

1185
01:06:45,000 --> 01:06:47,600
Speaker 1: think if you take the hunting side first, right, And

1186
01:06:47,720 --> 01:06:52,400
Speaker 1: we talked about the our model of conservation um successful

1187
01:06:52,480 --> 01:06:55,840
Speaker 1: e s a listing to me. And I think that

1188
01:06:56,120 --> 01:06:59,440
Speaker 1: everyone that you know is aware of the model. Conservation

1189
01:06:59,520 --> 01:07:02,800
Speaker 1: starts with dwinding the population, and like you said, the

1190
01:07:02,840 --> 01:07:07,760
Speaker 1: availability of critical habitat is also dwindling, right, and these

1191
01:07:07,800 --> 01:07:12,240
Speaker 1: distinct populations, assessing that, determining that which was done with

1192
01:07:12,240 --> 01:07:16,280
Speaker 1: with with these bears and then saying, okay, what do

1193
01:07:16,320 --> 01:07:18,560
Speaker 1: we gotta do to get them back to you know,

1194
01:07:19,040 --> 01:07:21,680
Speaker 1: there's all us always in these cases markers like when

1195
01:07:21,680 --> 01:07:23,760
Speaker 1: are when are they healthy again? What number of these

1196
01:07:23,800 --> 01:07:27,520
Speaker 1: animals allows this to be? Allows us to pull them

1197
01:07:27,520 --> 01:07:30,240
Speaker 1: off this list, say this is a healthy population center.

1198
01:07:30,280 --> 01:07:34,040
Speaker 1: Now we've done it right, we did it party, we

1199
01:07:34,080 --> 01:07:37,920
Speaker 1: did it Now the value and success of our model

1200
01:07:37,920 --> 01:07:44,600
Speaker 1: of conservation then says it's a successful es A listing two.

1201
01:07:45,280 --> 01:07:49,160
Speaker 1: Then hunt these animals again because that allows us to

1202
01:07:50,160 --> 01:07:53,040
Speaker 1: dictate our interaction with them in in in a way

1203
01:07:53,080 --> 01:07:58,640
Speaker 1: that's uh scientific works off sound wildlife management practices and

1204
01:07:58,640 --> 01:08:02,200
Speaker 1: works off wildlife biology. And so I think that's what

1205
01:08:02,600 --> 01:08:06,680
Speaker 1: hunters I think gets lost. And I'm not argue. I'm

1206
01:08:06,680 --> 01:08:08,040
Speaker 1: not I want to argue. I want to talk about

1207
01:08:08,040 --> 01:08:14,040
Speaker 1: both sides and then continue forward. But I think what's

1208
01:08:14,080 --> 01:08:17,120
Speaker 1: disappointing to me is that it gets lost. Like the

1209
01:08:17,160 --> 01:08:20,439
Speaker 1: motivation of why someone would shoot a grizzly bear, which

1210
01:08:20,479 --> 01:08:25,320
Speaker 1: is is something I'll probably never do. In fact, unless

1211
01:08:25,360 --> 01:08:28,400
Speaker 1: I change, I won't do I don't have any I'm

1212
01:08:28,439 --> 01:08:32,800
Speaker 1: a hunter. I just don't have any need to do it.

1213
01:08:32,840 --> 01:08:34,320
Speaker 1: I don't have any want to do it. It's not

1214
01:08:34,360 --> 01:08:38,479
Speaker 1: something I would participate in. UM and says like I,

1215
01:08:38,640 --> 01:08:41,639
Speaker 1: as a hunter would challenge the why of those twenty

1216
01:08:41,640 --> 01:08:44,840
Speaker 1: two people that draw those tags or the hundreds of

1217
01:08:45,120 --> 01:08:48,479
Speaker 1: thousands of people that applied. I would challenge their while

1218
01:08:48,640 --> 01:08:53,759
Speaker 1: and legitimately challenge their why. Um. But at the same time,

1219
01:08:55,040 --> 01:08:59,559
Speaker 1: here we are with this model that says, if we

1220
01:08:59,640 --> 01:09:04,280
Speaker 1: do this, it's worked for other species, distinct population centers

1221
01:09:04,360 --> 01:09:10,440
Speaker 1: or not. We can't then, So there's like this ideological

1222
01:09:10,760 --> 01:09:14,679
Speaker 1: or philosophical this works, Let's do it. It's hunting, right,

1223
01:09:15,880 --> 01:09:21,960
Speaker 1: and the person the more personal explanation of why would

1224
01:09:22,000 --> 01:09:27,200
Speaker 1: you then be the person to pull the trigger killed there? Um.

1225
01:09:27,240 --> 01:09:28,760
Speaker 1: So that's where I think the work lines up for

1226
01:09:28,800 --> 01:09:31,759
Speaker 1: me where it gets difficult on the hunting side, because

1227
01:09:31,800 --> 01:09:36,120
Speaker 1: there's there's easy inroads to start shipping away at the

1228
01:09:36,160 --> 01:09:39,640
Speaker 1: why that the personal why. It was easy inroads. Oh,

1229
01:09:39,760 --> 01:09:41,920
Speaker 1: you just want to kill it. It's a big bear,

1230
01:09:42,240 --> 01:09:47,360
Speaker 1: it's charismatic, it's seen as it's a unique in its landscape.

1231
01:09:47,920 --> 01:09:50,920
Speaker 1: People love to come and watch watch it, people love

1232
01:09:51,000 --> 01:09:57,000
Speaker 1: to interact with it, and and hunters do as well. Um.

1233
01:09:57,040 --> 01:09:59,000
Speaker 1: And so I think there's a lot of reasons that

1234
01:09:59,000 --> 01:10:03,559
Speaker 1: goes into those personal wise that I think whether I

1235
01:10:03,560 --> 01:10:05,360
Speaker 1: don't I don't even like the term anti hunters but

1236
01:10:05,439 --> 01:10:07,400
Speaker 1: like animal rights groups, as I guess probably the right

1237
01:10:07,600 --> 01:10:15,080
Speaker 1: right terms, you get into really examining those individuals why

1238
01:10:15,200 --> 01:10:18,800
Speaker 1: and using that those personal wise as a reason to

1239
01:10:18,960 --> 01:10:23,160
Speaker 1: stop the critical use of hunting is a tool to

1240
01:10:23,400 --> 01:10:27,559
Speaker 1: make this process be complete. So you agree with that

1241
01:10:27,640 --> 01:10:31,439
Speaker 1: kind of characterization of the personal why and the the

1242
01:10:31,560 --> 01:10:34,280
Speaker 1: conservation why. Yeah, And I think the one thing I'd

1243
01:10:34,280 --> 01:10:39,560
Speaker 1: add is that both non hunters, anti hunters, animal rights

1244
01:10:39,600 --> 01:10:44,240
Speaker 1: and hunters, I think we all agree that the Endangered

1245
01:10:44,280 --> 01:10:47,439
Speaker 1: Species Act exists to bring animals back from the brink

1246
01:10:47,439 --> 01:10:50,439
Speaker 1: of extinction to the point at which the populations are stable,

1247
01:10:51,680 --> 01:10:55,040
Speaker 1: and law says once populations are stable, states have the

1248
01:10:55,360 --> 01:11:00,240
Speaker 1: right and the legal obligation to manage those wildlife. And yeah,

1249
01:11:00,280 --> 01:11:04,120
Speaker 1: historically hunting has been one of the you know, better

1250
01:11:04,120 --> 01:11:08,479
Speaker 1: ways for them to raise money too, to conserve habitat,

1251
01:11:08,560 --> 01:11:11,439
Speaker 1: to do other things to raise value of these animals.

1252
01:11:11,439 --> 01:11:14,519
Speaker 1: And then also um the actual act of taking some

1253
01:11:14,600 --> 01:11:17,439
Speaker 1: animals away from the population to stable. Right. And for

1254
01:11:17,439 --> 01:11:19,800
Speaker 1: everybody listening, I know a lot of people listening to hunts,

1255
01:11:19,840 --> 01:11:23,400
Speaker 1: but for those who don't hunt, there are wildlife biologists

1256
01:11:23,400 --> 01:11:26,439
Speaker 1: and agencies doing their best job of saying okay, well,

1257
01:11:26,439 --> 01:11:29,000
Speaker 1: if you have bears across this known area, we should

1258
01:11:29,040 --> 01:11:30,760
Speaker 1: hunt this many and this part of the area, and

1259
01:11:30,800 --> 01:11:32,080
Speaker 1: this many and this part of the area. It's not

1260
01:11:32,120 --> 01:11:34,360
Speaker 1: this free for all. There are quite a few checks

1261
01:11:34,360 --> 01:11:36,639
Speaker 1: and balances. And that's why, Yeah, that's why I thought

1262
01:11:36,680 --> 01:11:39,080
Speaker 1: it was interesting, you know, to read those tenets of

1263
01:11:39,120 --> 01:11:41,880
Speaker 1: our model of conservation before we get into this, because

1264
01:11:42,080 --> 01:11:44,760
Speaker 1: you know, it's like, well, okay, how we're elk successful,

1265
01:11:45,160 --> 01:11:48,080
Speaker 1: How we're you know, how were the how is the

1266
01:11:48,120 --> 01:11:50,839
Speaker 1: Mallard duck successful? Like there's a system. There's our American

1267
01:11:50,880 --> 01:11:53,720
Speaker 1: system of conservation funding and then and then there's North

1268
01:11:53,760 --> 01:11:56,800
Speaker 1: American model wildlife conservation. Those two things interact in such

1269
01:11:56,800 --> 01:12:01,680
Speaker 1: a way that those animals were given value and those populations,

1270
01:12:01,760 --> 01:12:06,519
Speaker 1: distinct population centers in in their species entireties were allowed

1271
01:12:06,560 --> 01:12:09,519
Speaker 1: to then be forward and they've done well right. And

1272
01:12:10,520 --> 01:12:13,439
Speaker 1: I don't I don't think anybody. I think it's one

1273
01:12:13,439 --> 01:12:15,280
Speaker 1: of the things that pisces me off in this situation

1274
01:12:15,360 --> 01:12:20,960
Speaker 1: is anybody that characterizes hunters is uncaring assholes. There may

1275
01:12:20,960 --> 01:12:23,720
Speaker 1: be a few, but the greater population, hopefully, if you

1276
01:12:23,720 --> 01:12:26,240
Speaker 1: found in your time hunting is not like that. That's

1277
01:12:26,280 --> 01:12:29,439
Speaker 1: not what's happening. Well, I think that's a function of media. Yeah, right,

1278
01:12:29,479 --> 01:12:33,360
Speaker 1: Like we can all think about the person on the

1279
01:12:33,400 --> 01:12:35,559
Speaker 1: far left who is popped up on our feet or

1280
01:12:35,560 --> 01:12:37,960
Speaker 1: on the headline like they're insane, and we can also

1281
01:12:37,960 --> 01:12:40,479
Speaker 1: probably think of somebody in our own hunting space that

1282
01:12:40,520 --> 01:12:42,600
Speaker 1: has done things you're like, that's crazy, that was a

1283
01:12:42,640 --> 01:12:45,800
Speaker 1: stupid thing to do. But unfortunately the people on the

1284
01:12:45,800 --> 01:12:48,679
Speaker 1: other side of the aisle only see those assholes. And yeah,

1285
01:12:48,720 --> 01:12:53,000
Speaker 1: I mean it's just limit from this point forward in

1286
01:12:53,040 --> 01:12:55,040
Speaker 1: the conversation, will just eliminate the assholes. It makes it

1287
01:12:55,040 --> 01:12:58,680
Speaker 1: way easier. Because there's an assholes hunters. Asshole hunters they

1288
01:12:58,720 --> 01:13:01,120
Speaker 1: just want to shoot a bear for so they can

1289
01:13:01,120 --> 01:13:03,000
Speaker 1: hang it on their wall and do and say that

1290
01:13:03,040 --> 01:13:05,080
Speaker 1: they did it right. And to me, that's not a

1291
01:13:05,080 --> 01:13:08,320
Speaker 1: good enough reason. And there's asshole animal rights activists who

1292
01:13:08,400 --> 01:13:11,360
Speaker 1: just blankly want to save every animal they see and

1293
01:13:11,400 --> 01:13:16,280
Speaker 1: don't think twice and are easily inflamed by the by

1294
01:13:16,360 --> 01:13:18,960
Speaker 1: any harm to any animal, like, let's release all of

1295
01:13:18,960 --> 01:13:21,559
Speaker 1: the wild horses back on the range along, let's do

1296
01:13:21,640 --> 01:13:27,719
Speaker 1: even though they're fair on have brands they're destroying. Yeah no,

1297
01:13:27,760 --> 01:13:29,920
Speaker 1: but I think, but I think that all. You know,

1298
01:13:29,960 --> 01:13:33,640
Speaker 1: if if in this situation, you would eliminate the assholes

1299
01:13:33,880 --> 01:13:36,160
Speaker 1: and the outliers, and the outliers be like, listen, there

1300
01:13:36,200 --> 01:13:39,120
Speaker 1: are some animal rights activists that are so extreme that

1301
01:13:39,200 --> 01:13:42,800
Speaker 1: they almost eliminate themselves from this conversation. Uh, and they're

1302
01:13:42,800 --> 01:13:46,920
Speaker 1: so hunters. There's some hunters they are so extreme that

1303
01:13:46,960 --> 01:13:50,960
Speaker 1: we would eliminate them from this conversation. I wish we

1304
01:13:51,000 --> 01:13:55,320
Speaker 1: could do that with this federal court case. It's ruling.

1305
01:13:55,800 --> 01:13:58,639
Speaker 1: I don't I'd be interested to think to see your

1306
01:13:58,800 --> 01:14:02,839
Speaker 1: opinion and whether it was or not right, whether when

1307
01:14:02,920 --> 01:14:06,519
Speaker 1: we made this decision or when this ruling was made,

1308
01:14:08,439 --> 01:14:11,760
Speaker 1: whether we eliminated all of those folks. Yeah, you know.

1309
01:14:11,880 --> 01:14:16,200
Speaker 1: And my interpretation of it, you know, high level, is

1310
01:14:16,240 --> 01:14:20,519
Speaker 1: that I think the judge delaying his decision. He said,

1311
01:14:20,560 --> 01:14:22,760
Speaker 1: I'm not going to make a decision in court today.

1312
01:14:22,840 --> 01:14:24,599
Speaker 1: I'm going to hear both sides and gonna go home

1313
01:14:24,680 --> 01:14:26,759
Speaker 1: two weeks, fourteen days. Yeah, I'm gonna do my homework.

1314
01:14:27,400 --> 01:14:29,400
Speaker 1: I think he understand, and he says it outright in

1315
01:14:29,439 --> 01:14:32,880
Speaker 1: the first few pages. He says, I realized the emotional

1316
01:14:33,479 --> 01:14:38,320
Speaker 1: baggage and social commitment people have to both sides of

1317
01:14:38,320 --> 01:14:39,880
Speaker 1: the eye all of this topic. Let me stop you

1318
01:14:39,920 --> 01:14:42,519
Speaker 1: when we start talking about this judge, this judge, right right,

1319
01:14:43,320 --> 01:14:47,160
Speaker 1: Let's just go forward thinking that this judge is acting

1320
01:14:47,320 --> 01:14:50,040
Speaker 1: in good faith. Yes, is anybody that listened to this

1321
01:14:50,040 --> 01:14:53,360
Speaker 1: conversation and writes in or comments and says that the

1322
01:14:53,479 --> 01:14:57,040
Speaker 1: judge was a liberal a whole You're gone. I'm deleting you.

1323
01:14:58,040 --> 01:15:00,519
Speaker 1: Get out of my life. I want to live in

1324
01:15:00,520 --> 01:15:03,240
Speaker 1: a world where I believe that all judges are acting

1325
01:15:04,439 --> 01:15:06,960
Speaker 1: in good faith of the law and doing their jobs.

1326
01:15:07,120 --> 01:15:10,520
Speaker 1: So let's just we're not even gonna have that conversation.

1327
01:15:11,080 --> 01:15:15,120
Speaker 1: So I was like, children, No, we're just gonna do this,

1328
01:15:15,200 --> 01:15:17,000
Speaker 1: and we're gonna we're gonna act like this person even

1329
01:15:17,040 --> 01:15:19,160
Speaker 1: if that wasn't the case. I don't know this judge,

1330
01:15:19,240 --> 01:15:21,599
Speaker 1: never met him, and you can look at his decisions

1331
01:15:21,600 --> 01:15:24,639
Speaker 1: and make your own decision. But for this conversation, we're

1332
01:15:24,640 --> 01:15:28,280
Speaker 1: gonna act like he did the best job he could.

1333
01:15:28,560 --> 01:15:31,360
Speaker 1: And then we're also going to eliminate the outliers. Now,

1334
01:15:31,439 --> 01:15:35,320
Speaker 1: let's go because I think we're living now, let's have

1335
01:15:35,320 --> 01:15:39,439
Speaker 1: this conversation. Um, so he and he, so, he points

1336
01:15:39,439 --> 01:15:44,040
Speaker 1: out this is a complex issue. He brings up things

1337
01:15:44,080 --> 01:15:46,599
Speaker 1: that led to a decision that had nothing to do

1338
01:15:46,760 --> 01:15:50,080
Speaker 1: with the people who might go to the park I

1339
01:15:50,080 --> 01:15:52,240
Speaker 1: want to take a photo of one or the people

1340
01:15:52,280 --> 01:15:53,960
Speaker 1: who just want to shoot on the put on their wall.

1341
01:15:54,320 --> 01:15:59,600
Speaker 1: He made a decision based on the legal confines that

1342
01:15:59,760 --> 01:16:02,840
Speaker 1: he works within as a federal judge, and one of

1343
01:16:02,840 --> 01:16:07,920
Speaker 1: the main things that he brings up was the fact

1344
01:16:07,960 --> 01:16:12,040
Speaker 1: that if you, if we're we, as the Greater Public

1345
01:16:12,080 --> 01:16:14,639
Speaker 1: of America and the Danger Species Act, as the most

1346
01:16:14,680 --> 01:16:18,960
Speaker 1: important piece of wildlife legislation, are in the business of

1347
01:16:19,040 --> 01:16:22,719
Speaker 1: returning species from the brink of extinction to a place

1348
01:16:22,720 --> 01:16:25,320
Speaker 1: of stability where they can be managed by states and hunted.

1349
01:16:25,320 --> 01:16:27,720
Speaker 1: If the states determined that's what they should be, that's

1350
01:16:27,720 --> 01:16:30,120
Speaker 1: the way they should be managed. Which in Montana you

1351
01:16:30,120 --> 01:16:32,720
Speaker 1: can pretty much shoot everything you want, except you need

1352
01:16:32,720 --> 01:16:36,840
Speaker 1: a tag for a few big corn swans whatever, but

1353
01:16:37,080 --> 01:16:41,479
Speaker 1: generally you can hunt most things. So what he says

1354
01:16:41,880 --> 01:16:46,440
Speaker 1: is that the determination to dealist the Greater Yellston population

1355
01:16:47,320 --> 01:16:51,840
Speaker 1: was illegal because the species is listed. There's not a

1356
01:16:51,880 --> 01:16:55,720
Speaker 1: distinct population segment like in the wolf situation that can

1357
01:16:55,760 --> 01:16:58,800
Speaker 1: be delisted. Furthermore, what he's saying is that if you

1358
01:16:58,880 --> 01:17:02,760
Speaker 1: delist the Greater yell a stone population, a population that

1359
01:17:02,800 --> 01:17:08,200
Speaker 1: has no proven emigration or connection to the Continental Divide

1360
01:17:08,240 --> 01:17:12,600
Speaker 1: population in Glacier, or to the North Cascades or the Selkirks,

1361
01:17:12,680 --> 01:17:17,400
Speaker 1: or some of these populations in Idaho. You will jeopardize

1362
01:17:17,400 --> 01:17:21,240
Speaker 1: the future of those other populations that would benefit from

1363
01:17:21,320 --> 01:17:26,040
Speaker 1: genetics from their yellow Stun population connectivity. You would you

1364
01:17:26,040 --> 01:17:29,559
Speaker 1: would jeopardize their future. So he's he's not saying that

1365
01:17:30,080 --> 01:17:33,880
Speaker 1: the Wyoming, Idaho Montana inter Agency didn't do a good

1366
01:17:33,960 --> 01:17:37,600
Speaker 1: job and that this population is not doing well. He

1367
01:17:37,800 --> 01:17:42,439
Speaker 1: is saying that by delisting this population, which one is illegal,

1368
01:17:42,640 --> 01:17:46,040
Speaker 1: but two, if you could, would jeopardize those other populations

1369
01:17:46,040 --> 01:17:49,799
Speaker 1: from rebounding populations where you have four, twelve, twenty individuals

1370
01:17:49,880 --> 01:17:52,680
Speaker 1: or zero. And there there are just there are ecosystems

1371
01:17:52,680 --> 01:17:55,639
Speaker 1: identified as grizzly bear habitat that haven't had a grizzly

1372
01:17:55,680 --> 01:17:59,479
Speaker 1: bearing him in a hundred years. So let's unpack that

1373
01:17:59,560 --> 01:18:04,040
Speaker 1: a bit, because there's some things there. Um. The legality

1374
01:18:04,080 --> 01:18:07,080
Speaker 1: of it comes to your earlier point around the entire

1375
01:18:07,120 --> 01:18:12,280
Speaker 1: species being listed. Um, So hopefully everybody understands that we're

1376
01:18:12,280 --> 01:18:17,799
Speaker 1: talking about there. It seems unfortunate that they're these distinct

1377
01:18:17,800 --> 01:18:21,200
Speaker 1: populations weren't listed, you know, separately and able to be

1378
01:18:21,240 --> 01:18:29,160
Speaker 1: manned separately. Do you think that the E. S A

1379
01:18:29,280 --> 01:18:33,200
Speaker 1: in this case, I would say I could get on

1380
01:18:33,240 --> 01:18:35,639
Speaker 1: this train. The E s A in this case didn't

1381
01:18:35,680 --> 01:18:40,479
Speaker 1: do its job very well. I think it's hard. Foresight's hard, right,

1382
01:18:41,080 --> 01:18:43,439
Speaker 1: and saying saying like hey, seventy three, we can go

1383
01:18:43,520 --> 01:18:45,439
Speaker 1: back seventy three and be like, hey, guess what do

1384
01:18:46,080 --> 01:18:49,160
Speaker 1: Yeah two doesn't the pine beetles, Hey guess what, pine beetles.

1385
01:18:49,960 --> 01:18:51,720
Speaker 1: They're gonna they're gonna have a big issue. We're gonna

1386
01:18:51,760 --> 01:18:54,760
Speaker 1: have pine up problems. We can't we can't go back

1387
01:18:54,760 --> 01:19:00,120
Speaker 1: and change that. But but I think where what to

1388
01:19:00,120 --> 01:19:04,479
Speaker 1: me wrapped up is our model of conservation and what

1389
01:19:04,520 --> 01:19:08,000
Speaker 1: we say in the model of conservation around wildlife UM

1390
01:19:08,960 --> 01:19:15,799
Speaker 1: states managing that wildlife and trust and that scientific science

1391
01:19:15,880 --> 01:19:19,320
Speaker 1: and biology specifically science being the tool on which to

1392
01:19:19,400 --> 01:19:22,880
Speaker 1: manage those populations on a state level. I feel like

1393
01:19:22,920 --> 01:19:24,479
Speaker 1: that's a sound way to do it, and it's been

1394
01:19:24,479 --> 01:19:27,479
Speaker 1: proven as a sound way to do it. UM. The E.

1395
01:19:27,680 --> 01:19:31,920
Speaker 1: S A in this situation is because the entire population

1396
01:19:32,000 --> 01:19:36,280
Speaker 1: is listed, goes against that idea. Those two things are

1397
01:19:36,280 --> 01:19:38,840
Speaker 1: now at odds you have the e s A that's

1398
01:19:38,840 --> 01:19:42,920
Speaker 1: saying the entire population goes as listed, so you can't

1399
01:19:42,920 --> 01:19:45,439
Speaker 1: do the thing or the entire species. Yeah, the entire

1400
01:19:45,439 --> 01:19:48,920
Speaker 1: species sorry uh is listed, so you can't do the

1401
01:19:48,960 --> 01:19:53,679
Speaker 1: thing you did for these other populations. Is that accurate

1402
01:19:53,680 --> 01:19:56,160
Speaker 1: in your mind? Like those two things are up against

1403
01:19:56,160 --> 01:19:59,599
Speaker 1: each other. I think from a from a conceptual level,

1404
01:19:59,680 --> 01:20:06,560
Speaker 1: I the the maybe the disconnect or the the inefficiencies.

1405
01:20:07,320 --> 01:20:11,240
Speaker 1: But from a from a from a biology level, the

1406
01:20:11,320 --> 01:20:14,680
Speaker 1: gray wolf and the bald eagle are inherently different than

1407
01:20:14,720 --> 01:20:17,920
Speaker 1: a grizzly bear. Grizzly bear that's reproducing that at age

1408
01:20:17,960 --> 01:20:22,040
Speaker 1: six uh, an adult female might not replace herself in

1409
01:20:22,080 --> 01:20:25,120
Speaker 1: the population until not maybe nine years have passed. So

1410
01:20:25,120 --> 01:20:28,519
Speaker 1: we're talking at an animal that is inherently different than

1411
01:20:28,560 --> 01:20:31,519
Speaker 1: many animals we've ever protected in the past. So these

1412
01:20:31,560 --> 01:20:35,679
Speaker 1: are they're slow reproducing, dispersal, they don't have wings. They're

1413
01:20:35,720 --> 01:20:40,160
Speaker 1: not an elk that's migrating perhaps hundreds of miles, and

1414
01:20:40,200 --> 01:20:42,720
Speaker 1: they're not a wolf that's having litters of three, four

1415
01:20:42,800 --> 01:20:45,680
Speaker 1: or five uh, you know offspring where maybe three or

1416
01:20:46,160 --> 01:20:49,200
Speaker 1: three survive. You know, these are bears or maybe having

1417
01:20:49,600 --> 01:20:53,240
Speaker 1: twins and and maybe one survives and they're not reproducing

1418
01:20:53,320 --> 01:20:56,120
Speaker 1: until there maybe age six. So I think inherently you

1419
01:20:56,160 --> 01:21:00,160
Speaker 1: have some just different biology. Also, I think that's a

1420
01:21:00,280 --> 01:21:04,360
Speaker 1: that's a great point to make, um, and we have

1421
01:21:04,479 --> 01:21:10,680
Speaker 1: to be we have to really say, look, I love

1422
01:21:10,760 --> 01:21:14,559
Speaker 1: this model, right, I love it. It's working well, but

1423
01:21:15,000 --> 01:21:17,920
Speaker 1: your science and what you do says that you can't

1424
01:21:18,640 --> 01:21:21,519
Speaker 1: that umbrella works until it doesn't. Yeah, and it's not.

1425
01:21:21,640 --> 01:21:24,040
Speaker 1: Everything is not a square peg in a square hole.

1426
01:21:24,320 --> 01:21:26,080
Speaker 1: I think that's the problem. I've seen the hunting community

1427
01:21:26,120 --> 01:21:29,160
Speaker 1: around this is like and I and and I've been

1428
01:21:29,160 --> 01:21:31,880
Speaker 1: guilty of it too. But I and when my reading

1429
01:21:31,920 --> 01:21:35,880
Speaker 1: about this prior to this conversation and throughout this process, like, Okay,

1430
01:21:37,520 --> 01:21:41,360
Speaker 1: this is these are different species there are they're in

1431
01:21:41,439 --> 01:21:44,720
Speaker 1: different situations. We can't the s A can't do it,

1432
01:21:44,760 --> 01:21:47,280
Speaker 1: and in our model, wild life conservation and state biologist

1433
01:21:47,280 --> 01:21:51,080
Speaker 1: can't do it. Right. Um, we'll get into later once

1434
01:21:51,080 --> 01:21:53,040
Speaker 1: we get through this conceptual, we'll get into the actual.

1435
01:21:53,439 --> 01:21:55,760
Speaker 1: But let's continue. Well, and it's hard, right because like

1436
01:21:55,800 --> 01:21:59,320
Speaker 1: it's interpretation. So it's we have these things that are

1437
01:21:59,520 --> 01:22:02,240
Speaker 1: pretty find or that are you know, you can put

1438
01:22:02,280 --> 01:22:04,360
Speaker 1: them in a box like the ESA is a thing.

1439
01:22:04,439 --> 01:22:08,680
Speaker 1: With these tenants, the model of wildlife management and with

1440
01:22:08,760 --> 01:22:11,400
Speaker 1: the North American model has tenants. There are there are,

1441
01:22:11,840 --> 01:22:15,519
Speaker 1: you know, aspects that we can't deny exist when we're

1442
01:22:15,520 --> 01:22:18,559
Speaker 1: talking about the management of an animal over space and

1443
01:22:18,640 --> 01:22:22,719
Speaker 1: time space. That's different yellowstones different than glacier glaciers, different

1444
01:22:22,760 --> 01:22:25,559
Speaker 1: the selkirks. There are different realities on the ground, there

1445
01:22:25,560 --> 01:22:29,920
Speaker 1: are different ecosystem aspects. We require it, you know, we

1446
01:22:29,960 --> 01:22:32,599
Speaker 1: have to lean on interpretation. Somebody's saying like, okay, well,

1447
01:22:32,640 --> 01:22:34,680
Speaker 1: grizzly bears are little different than wolves. Grizzly bears are

1448
01:22:34,680 --> 01:22:39,400
Speaker 1: different than elk or or bald eagles. So what we

1449
01:22:39,439 --> 01:22:43,160
Speaker 1: get down to is this reality that yes, the law

1450
01:22:43,360 --> 01:22:47,000
Speaker 1: treats animals differently, like with the wolves and the grizzly

1451
01:22:47,080 --> 01:22:52,640
Speaker 1: bear functionally different. My interpretation of this genetic issue, this

1452
01:22:52,800 --> 01:22:56,559
Speaker 1: lack of connectivity, is that if our goal, if you're

1453
01:22:56,560 --> 01:22:59,320
Speaker 1: a hunter and your goals to hunt grizzly bear one day,

1454
01:22:59,640 --> 01:23:02,680
Speaker 1: give it some time, because if things keep going the

1455
01:23:02,680 --> 01:23:05,880
Speaker 1: way they're going, and this population continues to grow, and

1456
01:23:06,000 --> 01:23:10,400
Speaker 1: federal resources are put into connectivity and creating corridors and

1457
01:23:10,960 --> 01:23:16,559
Speaker 1: creating more stable populations outside of the greater Yellowstone. Then

1458
01:23:16,720 --> 01:23:19,479
Speaker 1: in the not too distant future, we will have more distinct,

1459
01:23:19,520 --> 01:23:23,200
Speaker 1: healthy populations that might merit dealisteine. And at that point,

1460
01:23:23,479 --> 01:23:25,880
Speaker 1: what a success like We've brought these animals back from

1461
01:23:25,960 --> 01:23:29,880
Speaker 1: nothing to six distinct ecosystems where there's populations that have

1462
01:23:29,960 --> 01:23:32,920
Speaker 1: genect diversity or thriving, and that's awesome. And I think

1463
01:23:32,920 --> 01:23:35,439
Speaker 1: we're getting to that point. And for the people who

1464
01:23:35,439 --> 01:23:38,360
Speaker 1: are anti grizzly bear hunting, they should realize that we

1465
01:23:38,439 --> 01:23:43,000
Speaker 1: have this amazing legal precedent that says, once species are

1466
01:23:43,040 --> 01:23:45,920
Speaker 1: back to a place of stability, it's up to the

1467
01:23:45,920 --> 01:23:47,680
Speaker 1: people who live with those animals to decide how they

1468
01:23:47,720 --> 01:23:49,479
Speaker 1: want to be managed. Yeah, because I think there's that

1469
01:23:49,560 --> 01:23:52,559
Speaker 1: the actual part I talk about that I think about it.

1470
01:23:52,800 --> 01:23:54,880
Speaker 1: I would say for the migration and the seating thing,

1471
01:23:55,080 --> 01:23:57,960
Speaker 1: I would would admit to not having a lot of

1472
01:23:58,080 --> 01:24:02,439
Speaker 1: around grizzly bears knowledge of how that exactly works. But

1473
01:24:02,520 --> 01:24:06,280
Speaker 1: when I see a species like a meal deer migrate

1474
01:24:07,000 --> 01:24:10,479
Speaker 1: across the West in a lot of cases, I wonder

1475
01:24:10,520 --> 01:24:13,240
Speaker 1: how you compare those things, right? Because was we hunt

1476
01:24:13,720 --> 01:24:17,680
Speaker 1: because there's state? Um, we're because we're not regulating mule

1477
01:24:17,760 --> 01:24:20,240
Speaker 1: deer across their migration. We're not saying like, hey, follow

1478
01:24:20,280 --> 01:24:24,120
Speaker 1: these guys. You know, Wyoming has their system for how

1479
01:24:24,120 --> 01:24:25,960
Speaker 1: you hum mule deer, how many tags you can draw,

1480
01:24:25,960 --> 01:24:28,160
Speaker 1: where you can draw them, the units that are you

1481
01:24:28,160 --> 01:24:32,719
Speaker 1: can hunt them. So does Idaho. So does other states

1482
01:24:32,720 --> 01:24:36,880
Speaker 1: where these these animals migrate across, and there's migration corridors

1483
01:24:36,920 --> 01:24:42,120
Speaker 1: are critical habitat to protect for these species. So here's

1484
01:24:42,120 --> 01:24:45,040
Speaker 1: an example of a healthy population. I mean, mule dey

1485
01:24:45,120 --> 01:24:46,720
Speaker 1: or healthy I don't know. Let's let's not go that

1486
01:24:46,800 --> 01:24:54,000
Speaker 1: far of I mean, would you consider me like those

1487
01:24:54,120 --> 01:24:57,560
Speaker 1: migratory mule deer to be seed to be seeding populations

1488
01:24:57,560 --> 01:25:00,479
Speaker 1: in other places? Absolutely? I think know a lot of

1489
01:25:00,520 --> 01:25:04,479
Speaker 1: those migrations are summer to winter as opposed to mule

1490
01:25:04,520 --> 01:25:08,600
Speaker 1: deer moving into novel habitat like I'm gonna blaze a

1491
01:25:08,600 --> 01:25:11,439
Speaker 1: new trail and I'm gonna like set up shots over here. Yeah, totally,

1492
01:25:11,560 --> 01:25:14,320
Speaker 1: and and there that is happening as white tails. A

1493
01:25:14,320 --> 01:25:17,160
Speaker 1: great example. You have white tailed like I'm gonna head

1494
01:25:17,200 --> 01:25:19,160
Speaker 1: that way and like, oh ship, I'm the first white

1495
01:25:19,160 --> 01:25:20,800
Speaker 1: tail in this meal there country. And now there's white

1496
01:25:20,800 --> 01:25:24,799
Speaker 1: tail coyotes did that in in droves to sting totally.

1497
01:25:25,600 --> 01:25:27,559
Speaker 1: I think with grizzly bears it's a little different because

1498
01:25:28,120 --> 01:25:31,000
Speaker 1: you don't have three hundred grizzly bears in a line

1499
01:25:31,080 --> 01:25:33,360
Speaker 1: hopping through the stage. You might have one or two.

1500
01:25:33,760 --> 01:25:36,120
Speaker 1: And along the way, those grizzly bears might be young

1501
01:25:36,200 --> 01:25:39,479
Speaker 1: males who have no manners, and they're like, well, ship,

1502
01:25:39,680 --> 01:25:41,920
Speaker 1: there's a cow, there's a chicken, there's a sheep. I'm

1503
01:25:41,960 --> 01:25:43,519
Speaker 1: gonna go rip its head off because I'm a bear

1504
01:25:43,800 --> 01:25:46,120
Speaker 1: and I'm i'm and I'm a teenager and I don't

1505
01:25:46,120 --> 01:25:48,519
Speaker 1: know what the hell I'm doing. And then that causes

1506
01:25:48,560 --> 01:25:51,320
Speaker 1: conflict and that bear gets shot. And the fact of

1507
01:25:51,320 --> 01:25:53,800
Speaker 1: the matter is there were twenty three bears slated to

1508
01:25:53,800 --> 01:25:57,439
Speaker 1: be hunted. There are more than twenty three bears this

1509
01:25:57,520 --> 01:26:00,280
Speaker 1: year that have been killed by other vehicle strikes or

1510
01:26:00,439 --> 01:26:03,040
Speaker 1: wildlife professionals coming in and killing of problem. That was Yeah,

1511
01:26:03,040 --> 01:26:05,120
Speaker 1: that was my actual. That's what I was talking about. Actual.

1512
01:26:05,439 --> 01:26:08,080
Speaker 1: So we need the conceptual is is? I think it's

1513
01:26:08,080 --> 01:26:11,360
Speaker 1: a it's an interesting argument, and conceptually I can see

1514
01:26:11,479 --> 01:26:16,040
Speaker 1: what you're saying. I can see, um, there being a

1515
01:26:16,160 --> 01:26:19,040
Speaker 1: larger threshold for the health of this population, right, I

1516
01:26:19,040 --> 01:26:21,479
Speaker 1: could see not being so shortsighted as to think that

1517
01:26:22,040 --> 01:26:26,880
Speaker 1: conceptually this we've done it. We did it, We got that, um,

1518
01:26:26,920 --> 01:26:29,160
Speaker 1: and has somebody who never really wants the hunt grizzy

1519
01:26:29,160 --> 01:26:34,519
Speaker 1: bear whatever, you know, but respects like our model and

1520
01:26:34,560 --> 01:26:36,800
Speaker 1: how it works. And some people do, and that's there,

1521
01:26:37,080 --> 01:26:38,720
Speaker 1: and that some people do. People I want to hunt

1522
01:26:38,720 --> 01:26:44,560
Speaker 1: grizzle bears, go for it, um. But the actual is

1523
01:26:44,560 --> 01:26:48,160
Speaker 1: is it more interesting to me because you're talking about

1524
01:26:48,320 --> 01:26:50,840
Speaker 1: twenty two dead your twenty three dead grizzly bears or

1525
01:26:50,960 --> 01:26:54,519
Speaker 1: twenty three dead grizzly bears, yeah, or like fifty dead

1526
01:26:54,520 --> 01:26:57,760
Speaker 1: grizzly bears. They are already dead this year, So it's

1527
01:26:57,840 --> 01:27:02,280
Speaker 1: dead grizzly bears or dead grizzly bears. So the other

1528
01:27:02,320 --> 01:27:05,519
Speaker 1: thing around this that that confounds me a bit is

1529
01:27:05,840 --> 01:27:08,959
Speaker 1: around the human interaction with grizzly bears and is hunting.

1530
01:27:11,439 --> 01:27:15,160
Speaker 1: Would hunting decrease the number of those interactions you're talking

1531
01:27:15,160 --> 01:27:18,360
Speaker 1: about where wildlife officials are shooting them or they get

1532
01:27:18,439 --> 01:27:22,400
Speaker 1: hit by cars? Do we know that? Can we say that?

1533
01:27:22,560 --> 01:27:25,400
Speaker 1: I mean, the bears that have bad behavior are probably

1534
01:27:25,400 --> 01:27:29,280
Speaker 1: already dead, you know, and the bears that are dumb

1535
01:27:29,880 --> 01:27:32,840
Speaker 1: are probably already dead. And well, I mean, there are

1536
01:27:32,880 --> 01:27:35,639
Speaker 1: certainly not to say that, like you should go strap

1537
01:27:35,680 --> 01:27:37,240
Speaker 1: a you know, a highd quarter of an elk over

1538
01:27:37,280 --> 01:27:39,600
Speaker 1: you know, behind your your on your bag and go

1539
01:27:39,720 --> 01:27:42,040
Speaker 1: run around the Bob Marshall because you might bump into

1540
01:27:42,080 --> 01:27:43,760
Speaker 1: a bear and that could be scary and dangerous, and

1541
01:27:43,800 --> 01:27:47,360
Speaker 1: that happens to people. But there are already a lot

1542
01:27:47,400 --> 01:27:49,639
Speaker 1: of checks and balances in place that are removing problem

1543
01:27:49,720 --> 01:27:52,799
Speaker 1: bears from the ecosystem. And as more and more bears

1544
01:27:52,800 --> 01:27:56,320
Speaker 1: get pumped out of Yellowstone and the Continental Divide, population,

1545
01:27:56,800 --> 01:27:58,760
Speaker 1: vehicle strikes around the rise, so or the number of

1546
01:27:58,840 --> 01:28:01,640
Speaker 1: people driving cars around these wild basically to hit a

1547
01:28:01,680 --> 01:28:04,000
Speaker 1: bear with your car totally. Somebody hit one, like right

1548
01:28:04,040 --> 01:28:07,479
Speaker 1: in Big Sky Canyon last year, you know. So it's happening,

1549
01:28:07,560 --> 01:28:10,000
Speaker 1: you know. And and and I think the argument to say,

1550
01:28:10,080 --> 01:28:12,400
Speaker 1: like us hunting twenty three bears and like the woods safer,

1551
01:28:12,520 --> 01:28:14,880
Speaker 1: or it's gonna keep the bears from eating the sheep

1552
01:28:14,920 --> 01:28:18,040
Speaker 1: in my yard, it's like no, no, no, more bears

1553
01:28:18,040 --> 01:28:21,000
Speaker 1: than you're gonna hunt this year are being killed. So

1554
01:28:21,080 --> 01:28:24,280
Speaker 1: that's that's where I come to again. It's like more

1555
01:28:24,280 --> 01:28:26,880
Speaker 1: of the wildlife officials that are shooting problem bears, right,

1556
01:28:29,880 --> 01:28:32,400
Speaker 1: probably because I just like it's I have his exhale

1557
01:28:32,439 --> 01:28:35,240
Speaker 1: because it gives me anxiety to think about these things

1558
01:28:35,240 --> 01:28:39,000
Speaker 1: because they're super complicated. But right, it's not like you

1559
01:28:39,080 --> 01:28:44,040
Speaker 1: call in a hunter to shoot the problem bear totally.

1560
01:28:44,479 --> 01:28:47,439
Speaker 1: So I think let's anybody who says, like, hey, if

1561
01:28:47,479 --> 01:28:52,040
Speaker 1: we go hunt, it will limit the interactions with problem bears.

1562
01:28:53,760 --> 01:28:57,720
Speaker 1: That's not all the way true. One thing I don't know,

1563
01:28:57,800 --> 01:29:01,160
Speaker 1: maybe you do, is how they you know, of the

1564
01:29:01,200 --> 01:29:04,080
Speaker 1: twenty two bears, how they choose exactly where in these

1565
01:29:04,080 --> 01:29:07,000
Speaker 1: populations you're gonna take a bear out, And I think

1566
01:29:07,040 --> 01:29:09,479
Speaker 1: there's ways that you can marry those things up together.

1567
01:29:10,000 --> 01:29:12,720
Speaker 1: So the reason around, like the actual reasoning saying if

1568
01:29:12,720 --> 01:29:14,920
Speaker 1: we hunt these twenty three bears, the population will decrease

1569
01:29:14,960 --> 01:29:17,920
Speaker 1: by twenty two and there'll be less problems with interactions

1570
01:29:18,040 --> 01:29:22,400
Speaker 1: with humans. Yeah I'm not I'm not, I'm not there,

1571
01:29:22,560 --> 01:29:24,680
Speaker 1: But where I am is we have to pay a

1572
01:29:24,720 --> 01:29:28,439
Speaker 1: wildlife manager to shoot a problem bear. Hunters are paying

1573
01:29:29,080 --> 01:29:33,880
Speaker 1: to go and so to eliminate that money is um

1574
01:29:34,040 --> 01:29:36,120
Speaker 1: something I just don't agree with. I mean, I think

1575
01:29:36,320 --> 01:29:39,280
Speaker 1: if if we're saying that we have problems with interaction

1576
01:29:39,320 --> 01:29:41,080
Speaker 1: with humans. We have problems with car strikes, we have

1577
01:29:41,160 --> 01:29:44,400
Speaker 1: problems with bears ripping the heads off cattle. All this

1578
01:29:44,439 --> 01:29:47,679
Speaker 1: ship costs money. And if we can shoot twenty two

1579
01:29:47,680 --> 01:29:50,880
Speaker 1: of them, and science and biology say it's not going

1580
01:29:50,920 --> 01:29:53,720
Speaker 1: to limit this population so so much that they can't

1581
01:29:53,720 --> 01:29:57,000
Speaker 1: see to other populations, why wouldn't we do that? Take

1582
01:29:57,080 --> 01:29:59,559
Speaker 1: the money and still and then use that money to

1583
01:29:59,600 --> 01:30:03,240
Speaker 1: address us car strikes and bad bears and pay for

1584
01:30:03,360 --> 01:30:07,000
Speaker 1: better ways for ranchers to interact and and teach them

1585
01:30:07,080 --> 01:30:10,200
Speaker 1: how to do it. Like that's where the line ends

1586
01:30:10,240 --> 01:30:13,320
Speaker 1: for me, But there's prior to getting there. It's it's

1587
01:30:13,080 --> 01:30:15,280
Speaker 1: a really a whole lot of like I can see it,

1588
01:30:15,400 --> 01:30:18,519
Speaker 1: but I also I mean it's complicated. There's no perfect solution,

1589
01:30:18,600 --> 01:30:20,080
Speaker 1: right because, like it was up to me and I

1590
01:30:20,120 --> 01:30:22,280
Speaker 1: could rewrite the law, I would say, keep him, keep

1591
01:30:22,360 --> 01:30:25,160
Speaker 1: him endangered. Get the hunters who want to spend whatever

1592
01:30:25,200 --> 01:30:26,960
Speaker 1: thousands of dollars for a tag and go shoot the

1593
01:30:26,960 --> 01:30:29,640
Speaker 1: problem bearing that guy's ranch that's killed a sheep. You know,

1594
01:30:29,760 --> 01:30:32,120
Speaker 1: maybe we just did it. Why is this judge not

1595
01:30:32,160 --> 01:30:34,320
Speaker 1: doing this? But like that that's to me, Yeah, Like

1596
01:30:34,439 --> 01:30:38,840
Speaker 1: I hate to be I hate to be so presumptive

1597
01:30:38,920 --> 01:30:41,920
Speaker 1: is to say, yeah, hunting is the answer. Yeah, it's

1598
01:30:41,920 --> 01:30:45,880
Speaker 1: not the answer. Our model of conservation says it is

1599
01:30:45,920 --> 01:30:48,879
Speaker 1: the answer, right, it was the answer for wild turkeys

1600
01:30:48,880 --> 01:30:51,519
Speaker 1: and mallard ducks and elk and white tail. These are

1601
01:30:51,640 --> 01:30:55,679
Speaker 1: and these are varying populations across different landscapes, with different

1602
01:30:55,720 --> 01:30:59,000
Speaker 1: histories and different interactions with humans, and they've all been

1603
01:30:59,040 --> 01:31:05,800
Speaker 1: fine being managed on a state basis by science in

1604
01:31:05,840 --> 01:31:08,479
Speaker 1: this model. So I trust that enough to say, like,

1605
01:31:08,760 --> 01:31:12,200
Speaker 1: let me, I'll fall back on that. I trust that

1606
01:31:12,320 --> 01:31:14,680
Speaker 1: enough to say that. So I think that's maybe why

1607
01:31:14,720 --> 01:31:16,760
Speaker 1: I'm always like, let's let's let's kill the bears. I

1608
01:31:16,760 --> 01:31:19,760
Speaker 1: guess let's do it. Well, it's hard because all those

1609
01:31:19,800 --> 01:31:23,559
Speaker 1: animals are inherently so different than grizzly bears. They're either

1610
01:31:24,120 --> 01:31:27,280
Speaker 1: geese that you agree though, that they're inherently different than

1611
01:31:27,320 --> 01:31:30,280
Speaker 1: each other, absolutely, But I think that some of the

1612
01:31:30,360 --> 01:31:35,320
Speaker 1: key differences are that they reproduce quickly, they are far ranging,

1613
01:31:35,680 --> 01:31:39,839
Speaker 1: they can fly, or they have these migrations. They aren't

1614
01:31:40,120 --> 01:31:43,920
Speaker 1: killing you, and they're generally not on T shirts and

1615
01:31:44,000 --> 01:31:48,400
Speaker 1: sell gift shops. Yeah you know elk, yes, but they

1616
01:31:48,439 --> 01:31:50,800
Speaker 1: don't kill you and there's a lot of them, there's

1617
01:31:50,840 --> 01:31:52,720
Speaker 1: not seven. But I think that sets it up well.

1618
01:31:52,760 --> 01:31:58,040
Speaker 1: It's like, yeah, look there's this unique animal, right that

1619
01:31:58,160 --> 01:32:01,080
Speaker 1: is not unique in the fact that we drove, we

1620
01:32:01,200 --> 01:32:02,920
Speaker 1: killed a ship ton of them, and now there were

1621
01:32:02,920 --> 01:32:05,880
Speaker 1: a few, because that happened with the other species we

1622
01:32:05,960 --> 01:32:09,040
Speaker 1: just named. So in that, in this way, it's not unique.

1623
01:32:10,280 --> 01:32:13,560
Speaker 1: It is unique in a lot of other ways. It's megafauna,

1624
01:32:13,880 --> 01:32:17,640
Speaker 1: super charismatic. They show up and you were gonna wear

1625
01:32:17,640 --> 01:32:21,080
Speaker 1: a grizzly bear was. They show up, they show up

1626
01:32:21,120 --> 01:32:23,519
Speaker 1: in your kids crib, they show up on TV. Like

1627
01:32:24,439 --> 01:32:26,160
Speaker 1: I truly do believe that that ends up being the

1628
01:32:26,160 --> 01:32:29,280
Speaker 1: heart of this anyways, right, because let's live in Let's

1629
01:32:29,280 --> 01:32:32,080
Speaker 1: say we live in a world that there there are

1630
01:32:32,080 --> 01:32:34,240
Speaker 1: no anti hunters and there are no animal rights groups

1631
01:32:34,280 --> 01:32:35,600
Speaker 1: to argue this and to put this in front of

1632
01:32:35,600 --> 01:32:42,160
Speaker 1: the judge. Texas, Yes, Texas, put up offense around, put

1633
01:32:42,160 --> 01:32:44,160
Speaker 1: the fence up around. The grizzly bears ain't going anywhere.

1634
01:32:44,240 --> 01:32:47,600
Speaker 1: They'll they'll grow, Yeah, they'll they'll be huge. There'll be

1635
01:32:47,720 --> 01:32:51,200
Speaker 1: thousands of them. Those just benefense. But let's say we

1636
01:32:51,280 --> 01:32:53,439
Speaker 1: live in that world where there isn't any anti hunters

1637
01:32:53,479 --> 01:32:58,240
Speaker 1: and nobody, nobody challenged the way this went down. Um okay,

1638
01:32:58,400 --> 01:33:03,240
Speaker 1: and that in that world, I not not having the

1639
01:33:03,400 --> 01:33:05,800
Speaker 1: knowledge of you know, grizzly bear gestation and the way

1640
01:33:05,840 --> 01:33:08,439
Speaker 1: they interact with national worth that you do. And that's

1641
01:33:08,439 --> 01:33:09,679
Speaker 1: why I wanted to have you on because I don't

1642
01:33:09,720 --> 01:33:13,200
Speaker 1: have that knowledge, and and I think most hunters don't,

1643
01:33:14,280 --> 01:33:18,519
Speaker 1: almost all of them. If anna hunters didn't exist and

1644
01:33:18,520 --> 01:33:21,320
Speaker 1: this was never challenged, and this went forward, and these

1645
01:33:21,360 --> 01:33:25,639
Speaker 1: twenty two folks, unencumbered went out and shot twenty two bears.

1646
01:33:26,680 --> 01:33:30,320
Speaker 1: I think if the next year you went back and

1647
01:33:30,400 --> 01:33:33,160
Speaker 1: you said did so, if you were looking at a

1648
01:33:33,200 --> 01:33:35,799
Speaker 1: few things that we just talked about, did problem bears

1649
01:33:36,280 --> 01:33:40,120
Speaker 1: the interactions with humans and problem bears decrease, I would

1650
01:33:40,400 --> 01:33:44,800
Speaker 1: guess no. Right, so that that would be my guest,

1651
01:33:44,920 --> 01:33:46,920
Speaker 1: just because the random nature of killing an animal and

1652
01:33:47,000 --> 01:33:51,200
Speaker 1: another animal another area doing something we don't like. No,

1653
01:33:52,360 --> 01:33:57,559
Speaker 1: would that population of bears, the Yellowstone Great yellostone population

1654
01:33:57,600 --> 01:34:01,880
Speaker 1: of bears be unable to to see those other populations

1655
01:34:01,880 --> 01:34:04,120
Speaker 1: of bears the other four or five that you mentioned,

1656
01:34:04,120 --> 01:34:07,080
Speaker 1: there are four critical ones that you mentioned, I would

1657
01:34:07,120 --> 01:34:09,519
Speaker 1: say yes, they will still be able to do their

1658
01:34:09,600 --> 01:34:14,920
Speaker 1: job in allowing the same to grow. Um, So in

1659
01:34:15,000 --> 01:34:18,760
Speaker 1: the end, both sides are a little bit wrong. Like

1660
01:34:19,400 --> 01:34:22,200
Speaker 1: when I think in the end it would work and

1661
01:34:22,360 --> 01:34:26,720
Speaker 1: still not do in this one case, still not do

1662
01:34:28,160 --> 01:34:32,720
Speaker 1: any real damage to the future grizzly bears. And I

1663
01:34:32,800 --> 01:34:35,599
Speaker 1: think you know in the court decision, there's nothing about

1664
01:34:36,000 --> 01:34:40,080
Speaker 1: hunting twenty three bears. Yeah, I know, it's about the law,

1665
01:34:40,360 --> 01:34:44,840
Speaker 1: the connectivity, the genetics. Uh have you said you you're

1666
01:34:44,840 --> 01:34:46,640
Speaker 1: saying you read it a few times, Like, what's you know?

1667
01:34:46,720 --> 01:34:48,960
Speaker 1: Give us to the crib notes on this this guy,

1668
01:34:49,280 --> 01:34:51,760
Speaker 1: I mean basically what he's saying. It's like it's complicated.

1669
01:34:51,920 --> 01:34:56,080
Speaker 1: I realized, appreciate I'm saying that it's emotional. Guys, this

1670
01:34:56,160 --> 01:34:57,840
Speaker 1: is easy. Yeah, I'll tell you what to do the

1671
01:34:57,920 --> 01:34:59,800
Speaker 1: things with won in your shirts, let them live well

1672
01:34:59,840 --> 01:35:01,439
Speaker 1: in I'm sure if you had to be with this guy,

1673
01:35:01,479 --> 01:35:03,840
Speaker 1: he would be like, that was a challenging decision because

1674
01:35:03,960 --> 01:35:06,960
Speaker 1: there are there are rights on both sides of the

1675
01:35:07,320 --> 01:35:09,479
Speaker 1: there are truths on both sides. Yeah, but he made

1676
01:35:09,520 --> 01:35:12,200
Speaker 1: his decision based on the law that exists, and and

1677
01:35:12,439 --> 01:35:14,680
Speaker 1: if he didn't make this decision, he would have not

1678
01:35:14,840 --> 01:35:17,160
Speaker 1: been doing the law of justice. Or he would have

1679
01:35:17,160 --> 01:35:19,320
Speaker 1: had to change the law, which gets into a scary

1680
01:35:19,360 --> 01:35:21,240
Speaker 1: place where we say, oh, we really give a shit

1681
01:35:21,280 --> 01:35:25,160
Speaker 1: about this issue. Let's change a holistic law that manages

1682
01:35:25,160 --> 01:35:27,400
Speaker 1: wildlife at large. Yeah, I mean I think in I

1683
01:35:27,439 --> 01:35:29,040
Speaker 1: don't have this all in my head, but I think.

1684
01:35:29,080 --> 01:35:31,040
Speaker 1: And then if you talk to like the guys that

1685
01:35:31,120 --> 01:35:35,360
Speaker 1: Sportsman Alliance or or or pro hunter advocate groups, you

1686
01:35:35,400 --> 01:35:39,519
Speaker 1: would find that around this e s a thing. They

1687
01:35:39,600 --> 01:35:42,519
Speaker 1: lose a lot. They lose a lot because the law

1688
01:35:42,600 --> 01:35:44,479
Speaker 1: is really kind of in this way, even in like

1689
01:35:45,640 --> 01:35:48,320
Speaker 1: in semantics, really not on their side in a lot

1690
01:35:48,400 --> 01:35:52,519
Speaker 1: of these cases. Um, then they might tell me I'm wrong,

1691
01:35:52,600 --> 01:35:56,200
Speaker 1: but I'd like in just anecdotally having been trying to

1692
01:35:56,240 --> 01:35:58,600
Speaker 1: get educated about wolves and bears, and in some of

1693
01:35:58,640 --> 01:36:02,240
Speaker 1: these situations, I feel like they lose a lot just

1694
01:36:02,360 --> 01:36:05,920
Speaker 1: based on the legal precedents. Well, and it's hard right,

1695
01:36:06,000 --> 01:36:08,880
Speaker 1: like sage grouse, it's a hard thing. People run cattle.

1696
01:36:09,080 --> 01:36:12,240
Speaker 1: People don't want critical habitat on their backyard. I know.

1697
01:36:14,160 --> 01:36:17,559
Speaker 1: I've done work in sane just country with people deeply

1698
01:36:17,640 --> 01:36:22,840
Speaker 1: invested in that research who no of ranchers. Obviously it

1699
01:36:22,920 --> 01:36:25,080
Speaker 1: is not indicative of the whole, but like when they

1700
01:36:25,120 --> 01:36:28,360
Speaker 1: were on the table to be listed, ranchers destroyed the

1701
01:36:28,439 --> 01:36:30,400
Speaker 1: lex on their property because they didn't want critical habits

1702
01:36:30,479 --> 01:36:34,439
Speaker 1: on their land. It's a real thing. There's more people

1703
01:36:34,880 --> 01:36:38,000
Speaker 1: every year on earth trying to make a living, and

1704
01:36:38,160 --> 01:36:41,000
Speaker 1: there are fewer animals with an opportunity to make a living.

1705
01:36:41,439 --> 01:36:43,439
Speaker 1: And I think that trend. Gosh, that's a good way

1706
01:36:43,479 --> 01:36:46,720
Speaker 1: to put it, man, because every time, I mean, that's

1707
01:36:46,800 --> 01:36:50,000
Speaker 1: Republican versus Democrat right now in this issue, right it is.

1708
01:36:50,439 --> 01:36:56,400
Speaker 1: I mean it's it's jobs versus environment and not making

1709
01:36:56,479 --> 01:36:58,479
Speaker 1: more environment. No, we can make more jobs. And that's

1710
01:36:58,520 --> 01:37:02,920
Speaker 1: what I think I always come back to. I think, yeah,

1711
01:37:02,920 --> 01:37:05,800
Speaker 1: it's there's some logical fallacy in the jobs. You know,

1712
01:37:05,920 --> 01:37:07,760
Speaker 1: we we need to attract because we need jobs. We

1713
01:37:07,800 --> 01:37:10,880
Speaker 1: need a healthy consistants, healthy have a healthy country. Um.

1714
01:37:10,960 --> 01:37:14,080
Speaker 1: I think Governor meat and Waowings and what he said

1715
01:37:14,080 --> 01:37:17,760
Speaker 1: about sage Grouse said it, well, in that particular state,

1716
01:37:18,760 --> 01:37:22,800
Speaker 1: they need healthy habitats. So you can have a healthy

1717
01:37:22,880 --> 01:37:28,479
Speaker 1: state economically, right, and so any hindrance of that bye

1718
01:37:29,040 --> 01:37:32,080
Speaker 1: by ridding yourself of that critical habitat and that and

1719
01:37:32,160 --> 01:37:35,560
Speaker 1: that wildlife in exchange for extraction or cattle ranching or

1720
01:37:35,600 --> 01:37:38,000
Speaker 1: whatever you might be doing is short sighted from an

1721
01:37:38,040 --> 01:37:42,719
Speaker 1: economic standpoint um, which is which has been the argument

1722
01:37:42,840 --> 01:37:46,200
Speaker 1: a lot. Well, the hard thing about it is that

1723
01:37:47,600 --> 01:37:54,120
Speaker 1: it boils down to people trying to support their families,

1724
01:37:55,560 --> 01:37:57,920
Speaker 1: you know, and we can assume that most people are

1725
01:37:58,000 --> 01:38:02,880
Speaker 1: trying their best and ecosystems and wildlife who don't vote

1726
01:38:03,800 --> 01:38:08,120
Speaker 1: yeah or or and don't need cash to pay their mortgage. Oh,

1727
01:38:08,280 --> 01:38:11,120
Speaker 1: it's it's it's. This is one of those situations where

1728
01:38:11,280 --> 01:38:13,679
Speaker 1: and there's a few of them in politics or in life,

1729
01:38:14,880 --> 01:38:19,479
Speaker 1: where it's human nature versus human nature. Human nature is

1730
01:38:19,520 --> 01:38:21,600
Speaker 1: to thrive and survive and feed your family and and

1731
01:38:21,920 --> 01:38:25,040
Speaker 1: be and in the game of life succeed. And if

1732
01:38:25,080 --> 01:38:27,280
Speaker 1: you have identified this one way to succeed, and that's

1733
01:38:27,280 --> 01:38:30,800
Speaker 1: a being, there's an impediment that is a bird or

1734
01:38:30,920 --> 01:38:34,960
Speaker 1: a bear, or your human nature says to rid yourself

1735
01:38:35,000 --> 01:38:37,840
Speaker 1: of that impediment, so then you can't succeed. And I

1736
01:38:37,920 --> 01:38:42,679
Speaker 1: get that all the way, but I feel like also

1737
01:38:42,960 --> 01:38:46,479
Speaker 1: somewhere in our human nature is the ability to have

1738
01:38:46,680 --> 01:38:50,120
Speaker 1: empathy for other living beings. And if we lose that empathy,

1739
01:38:50,200 --> 01:38:53,640
Speaker 1: we become sociopathic assholes. And rather not do that and

1740
01:38:53,720 --> 01:38:58,960
Speaker 1: we delete your comments. We delete your comments. I love judges,

1741
01:38:59,640 --> 01:39:03,080
Speaker 1: all of or impartial um. But but I think that

1742
01:39:03,920 --> 01:39:07,599
Speaker 1: empathy is also part of human nature. So your human

1743
01:39:07,680 --> 01:39:10,200
Speaker 1: nature should allow you to be empathetic for animals and

1744
01:39:10,280 --> 01:39:13,280
Speaker 1: allow you to understand their plight because, like you said,

1745
01:39:13,320 --> 01:39:17,519
Speaker 1: they can't speak for themselves. What human nature also says,

1746
01:39:17,720 --> 01:39:21,200
Speaker 1: survival is key. So what do we do? You tell me, Charles,

1747
01:39:21,240 --> 01:39:24,680
Speaker 1: I got nothing. I mean, it's so hard because I

1748
01:39:24,840 --> 01:39:27,920
Speaker 1: get it, like more than anything. I want to move

1749
01:39:28,000 --> 01:39:30,160
Speaker 1: into my new house, take care of my wife and

1750
01:39:30,240 --> 01:39:32,320
Speaker 1: raise a family. Yeah, I get that. Now. If there

1751
01:39:32,400 --> 01:39:34,840
Speaker 1: was now let's say there's if there was a you know,

1752
01:39:36,000 --> 01:39:40,080
Speaker 1: situation where having stage dress on your land impeded your

1753
01:39:41,000 --> 01:39:42,720
Speaker 1: like cost you money to where you had to go

1754
01:39:42,840 --> 01:39:44,680
Speaker 1: get a night job and didn't see get your kid

1755
01:39:44,800 --> 01:39:47,320
Speaker 1: and your kids get depressed because you were never around.

1756
01:39:47,920 --> 01:39:49,560
Speaker 1: But there were ship tons of stage grouse on the

1757
01:39:49,600 --> 01:39:53,439
Speaker 1: ten ten acres. You have to make some decisions there.

1758
01:39:53,920 --> 01:39:56,519
Speaker 1: I mean. A story that comes to mind is my

1759
01:39:56,720 --> 01:39:59,960
Speaker 1: friend Chris Boys. He's doing the in the Okavongo Dell,

1760
01:40:00,080 --> 01:40:04,240
Speaker 1: the research project for Nagio. It's the wildest watershed left

1761
01:40:04,280 --> 01:40:07,799
Speaker 1: in Africa. He came across a bunch of elephant poachers recently,

1762
01:40:09,080 --> 01:40:12,360
Speaker 1: these guys who have nothing. When poachers kill elephants, they

1763
01:40:12,400 --> 01:40:15,160
Speaker 1: usually cut their head off and bury it, and then

1764
01:40:15,400 --> 01:40:17,640
Speaker 1: they basically wait. They'll sit there at camp, bury the

1765
01:40:17,720 --> 01:40:20,040
Speaker 1: body or the head, and wait for the head to

1766
01:40:20,080 --> 01:40:21,880
Speaker 1: decompose the point where they can pull the ivory out.

1767
01:40:22,560 --> 01:40:26,200
Speaker 1: So my friend Chris, who's a South African explorer, he's

1768
01:40:26,200 --> 01:40:31,320
Speaker 1: an awesome guy. He comes up on these guys guns scared.

1769
01:40:31,960 --> 01:40:34,760
Speaker 1: They got a few elephant heads in the ground. He's like,

1770
01:40:35,320 --> 01:40:38,439
Speaker 1: that's crazy. He talks these guys, they say, I can

1771
01:40:38,520 --> 01:40:41,040
Speaker 1: kill one elephant. That I realized is a bad thing.

1772
01:40:41,240 --> 01:40:43,400
Speaker 1: I realized it's illegal and makes me sad. I grew

1773
01:40:43,520 --> 01:40:49,160
Speaker 1: up here, born here watching elephants. I respect them. I

1774
01:40:49,200 --> 01:40:51,479
Speaker 1: also have no money. I have a family to feed.

1775
01:40:51,840 --> 01:40:54,040
Speaker 1: I cut this thing's head off because I need to

1776
01:40:54,080 --> 01:40:57,200
Speaker 1: feed my family. That's the reality. And he's like, I

1777
01:40:57,280 --> 01:41:00,800
Speaker 1: can't argue with that. It's shitty. It's sad that guy

1778
01:41:00,880 --> 01:41:04,479
Speaker 1: is desperate that elephants dead there in decline. But it's real, ship,

1779
01:41:05,080 --> 01:41:07,960
Speaker 1: you know, And I think you can't blame the guy

1780
01:41:08,280 --> 01:41:11,320
Speaker 1: necessarily who might have the stage grouse in this yard.

1781
01:41:11,360 --> 01:41:15,719
Speaker 1: Who does something that's maybe unethical, but that's real stuff.

1782
01:41:15,920 --> 01:41:18,479
Speaker 1: And I think with the grizzly bear, people who lose

1783
01:41:19,520 --> 01:41:24,360
Speaker 1: livestock even though there are funds available that give money

1784
01:41:24,479 --> 01:41:26,800
Speaker 1: to replace those animals, Like, that's a real thing and

1785
01:41:26,920 --> 01:41:30,599
Speaker 1: you feel like your life or your lifestyle is threatened. However,

1786
01:41:31,200 --> 01:41:34,840
Speaker 1: it also is just a complicated pr narrative where that

1787
01:41:35,160 --> 01:41:38,240
Speaker 1: guy is getting sued by a Portland lawyer on behalf

1788
01:41:38,320 --> 01:41:42,120
Speaker 1: of Center for Biological Diversity. That looks bad. He doesn't

1789
01:41:42,160 --> 01:41:44,160
Speaker 1: live there, he doesn't have a stage grouse or grizzly

1790
01:41:44,240 --> 01:41:46,320
Speaker 1: or wolves in his backyard. But the fact the matter

1791
01:41:46,479 --> 01:41:49,519
Speaker 1: is one that guy on the ranch is probably not

1792
01:41:49,560 --> 01:41:52,160
Speaker 1: gonna get the tag shoot the grizzly bear. Yeah, that's

1793
01:41:52,240 --> 01:41:54,960
Speaker 1: that's that's the thing. Like I always cater remove that

1794
01:41:55,080 --> 01:41:59,880
Speaker 1: from the hunting conversation. Right again, all this stuff is

1795
01:42:00,080 --> 01:42:04,240
Speaker 1: just my opinion. It's not very educated. I read a

1796
01:42:04,280 --> 01:42:06,080
Speaker 1: lot and I try my best as well, I'll tell you,

1797
01:42:07,080 --> 01:42:10,760
Speaker 1: but I just almost always eliminate from the conversation because

1798
01:42:10,760 --> 01:42:14,640
Speaker 1: I don't I truly don't believe unless unless somebody from

1799
01:42:14,680 --> 01:42:16,479
Speaker 1: the State Wyomi would come on and say we are

1800
01:42:16,720 --> 01:42:20,800
Speaker 1: we are targeting problem bears in areas around suburban and

1801
01:42:21,000 --> 01:42:24,800
Speaker 1: urban you know, in in the case of where where

1802
01:42:24,840 --> 01:42:27,880
Speaker 1: people live where targeting areas problem bears, when people live

1803
01:42:27,880 --> 01:42:30,000
Speaker 1: in these twenty two tags are going to that, and

1804
01:42:30,080 --> 01:42:32,360
Speaker 1: then you're not as a hunter, You're like, well, why

1805
01:42:32,400 --> 01:42:34,680
Speaker 1: am I going? Right? That doesn't give me all the

1806
01:42:34,760 --> 01:42:37,400
Speaker 1: things hunting gives me. Now, I'm just just paying to

1807
01:42:37,520 --> 01:42:40,560
Speaker 1: be shooting, paying to shoot a past and so like

1808
01:42:40,680 --> 01:42:44,680
Speaker 1: that to me, if I'm looking at as a non

1809
01:42:44,800 --> 01:42:48,840
Speaker 1: grizzly bear hunter, I've killed a lot of bears, So

1810
01:42:48,960 --> 01:42:52,120
Speaker 1: I could say I wouldn't go in that hunt. I

1811
01:42:52,160 --> 01:42:54,560
Speaker 1: wouldn't pay to go in that hunt. I would not

1812
01:42:54,680 --> 01:42:58,599
Speaker 1: pay to go and eliminate that pest and call it hunting. Well,

1813
01:42:58,640 --> 01:43:00,960
Speaker 1: it's unique in that in this case we're talking about

1814
01:43:01,640 --> 01:43:07,599
Speaker 1: the deal listing of a potential game animal that threats people,

1815
01:43:09,000 --> 01:43:12,519
Speaker 1: where you, as the hunter, are not saying I'm using

1816
01:43:12,640 --> 01:43:21,360
Speaker 1: my bullet, arrow or shotgun two manage a population. You're

1817
01:43:21,680 --> 01:43:23,679
Speaker 1: saying I'm going to maybe you make the wood safer.

1818
01:43:23,840 --> 01:43:26,240
Speaker 1: There's a Disknecht there, Yeah, No, there definitely is. And

1819
01:43:26,640 --> 01:43:34,320
Speaker 1: I think you could argue that a well managed population

1820
01:43:35,880 --> 01:43:40,439
Speaker 1: is is less apt to have problem animals, you know,

1821
01:43:40,920 --> 01:43:44,320
Speaker 1: doing what they're doing. If there's if there's less bears,

1822
01:43:45,360 --> 01:43:48,519
Speaker 1: less competition for the things they need to survive, food

1823
01:43:48,640 --> 01:43:51,640
Speaker 1: and all those types of things you have less, it

1824
01:43:51,640 --> 01:43:54,360
Speaker 1: would be a less problematic situation. Now. You could say that,

1825
01:43:55,640 --> 01:43:57,880
Speaker 1: but I would need you to prove that to me,

1826
01:43:58,560 --> 01:44:01,000
Speaker 1: because it seems right. It seems like, hey, if we

1827
01:44:01,080 --> 01:44:05,519
Speaker 1: have seven bears, if we have and they're all competing

1828
01:44:05,680 --> 01:44:09,760
Speaker 1: for you know, a relatively they're not relatively small, but

1829
01:44:09,960 --> 01:44:12,120
Speaker 1: but in an area for for food and for all

1830
01:44:12,160 --> 01:44:17,600
Speaker 1: the things they need to survive, that shrapnel from that

1831
01:44:17,720 --> 01:44:20,360
Speaker 1: competition ends up being what we're talking about. Right. If

1832
01:44:20,360 --> 01:44:23,160
Speaker 1: it's spill over, it's spillover. Now, if there's less animals,

1833
01:44:23,200 --> 01:44:26,320
Speaker 1: that be less spillover, right, I could get with that.

1834
01:44:28,080 --> 01:44:29,720
Speaker 1: I just but I just don't think twenty two in

1835
01:44:29,760 --> 01:44:34,840
Speaker 1: this situation is enough. I don't. And then again I don't. Haven't.

1836
01:44:35,360 --> 01:44:36,840
Speaker 1: I'm not a wildife followed it, so I don't know.

1837
01:44:36,960 --> 01:44:40,320
Speaker 1: But that's that would be my just regular dude thoughts on. Yeah, well,

1838
01:44:40,360 --> 01:44:42,519
Speaker 1: and it's you know, and the corollary to that is

1839
01:44:42,560 --> 01:44:44,719
Speaker 1: like the bison in Yellstone. Every year, the Park Service

1840
01:44:44,840 --> 01:44:47,599
Speaker 1: kills hundreds of every winter they kill hundreds of bison

1841
01:44:47,960 --> 01:44:52,400
Speaker 1: because bison, like elk, carry brucellisis can carry brucellosis which

1842
01:44:52,560 --> 01:44:57,000
Speaker 1: can cause cattle to abort cats. That's a real thing.

1843
01:44:58,640 --> 01:45:02,599
Speaker 1: Yelisa National Park as an oversupply of bison, the excess

1844
01:45:02,640 --> 01:45:05,839
Speaker 1: are killed. Ye. Also in National Park has an excess

1845
01:45:05,840 --> 01:45:09,720
Speaker 1: of grizzly bears, the bad ones are killed. You know,

1846
01:45:10,240 --> 01:45:15,679
Speaker 1: I mean it's it's would you would you say um again,

1847
01:45:15,800 --> 01:45:17,720
Speaker 1: like going back to like why hunting for me? What

1848
01:45:17,840 --> 01:45:20,960
Speaker 1: what hunting ends up being? It's like healthy ecosystems and

1849
01:45:21,720 --> 01:45:27,200
Speaker 1: and that kind of thing. Would you say that that's

1850
01:45:27,600 --> 01:45:31,160
Speaker 1: we can define those interactions. You're just talking about the

1851
01:45:31,240 --> 01:45:37,800
Speaker 1: killing of an animal for something other than um, you know,

1852
01:45:38,160 --> 01:45:41,320
Speaker 1: hunting purposes, virtuous hunting purposes, or however we'll put that

1853
01:45:41,720 --> 01:45:46,760
Speaker 1: term is unhealthy interactions with wildlife. That's like an unhealthy

1854
01:45:48,120 --> 01:45:50,640
Speaker 1: killing it with a car, killing it with a with

1855
01:45:50,760 --> 01:45:53,559
Speaker 1: a gun because it carries a certain type of disease,

1856
01:45:53,640 --> 01:45:56,519
Speaker 1: killing it with a gun because it's threatening someone's life.

1857
01:45:56,560 --> 01:46:01,120
Speaker 1: For someone's livelihood is like the example of human wildlife

1858
01:46:01,160 --> 01:46:04,320
Speaker 1: interaction that is unhealthy. Yeah, but I mean we live

1859
01:46:04,360 --> 01:46:07,519
Speaker 1: in the anthropscene, like the epic we live in is

1860
01:46:07,600 --> 01:46:10,960
Speaker 1: the one defined by humanity. So it's not like we're

1861
01:46:11,040 --> 01:46:14,599
Speaker 1: making these decisions based on science alone necessarily. Well yeah,

1862
01:46:14,600 --> 01:46:17,400
Speaker 1: but like the only the only opportunity, the only option

1863
01:46:17,479 --> 01:46:19,799
Speaker 1: we have is to determine, like what's an unhealthy interaction,

1864
01:46:19,880 --> 01:46:22,240
Speaker 1: what's a healthy one, and promote the healthy one, right, yeah,

1865
01:46:22,360 --> 01:46:26,000
Speaker 1: And but sometimes a healthy one conflicts with with society.

1866
01:46:26,040 --> 01:46:27,760
Speaker 1: I mean a great example in the segue into the

1867
01:46:28,080 --> 01:46:32,280
Speaker 1: California fire situation, there are a hundred and twenty nine

1868
01:46:32,439 --> 01:46:35,720
Speaker 1: million dead trees in California. Many of them are dead

1869
01:46:35,720 --> 01:46:40,639
Speaker 1: because of drought that's exacerbated by warming winters. Also pine beetles,

1870
01:46:41,200 --> 01:46:46,760
Speaker 1: same thing in Montana. Californians don't want to see, you know,

1871
01:46:47,680 --> 01:46:50,639
Speaker 1: people coming in and cutting down dead trees and building

1872
01:46:51,320 --> 01:46:55,200
Speaker 1: walking roads. People who live in California and elsewhere we

1873
01:46:55,320 --> 01:46:58,240
Speaker 1: had fire this summer. It was shitty. You don't want

1874
01:46:58,600 --> 01:47:01,800
Speaker 1: your backyard forest being burned as a prescribed burn because

1875
01:47:01,800 --> 01:47:03,360
Speaker 1: you don't want to have your kids breathing in the air.

1876
01:47:04,200 --> 01:47:08,640
Speaker 1: Those are real things. The results of those realities, or

1877
01:47:08,720 --> 01:47:13,320
Speaker 1: that you have this excess timber that's dead that turns

1878
01:47:13,439 --> 01:47:18,320
Speaker 1: our force into potential bonfire, which is what happening now,

1879
01:47:18,360 --> 01:47:23,360
Speaker 1: and it's freaking horrible hundreds, you know, And that's a

1880
01:47:23,479 --> 01:47:26,599
Speaker 1: real thing. It's like you're telling people, hey, we're gonna

1881
01:47:26,680 --> 01:47:28,519
Speaker 1: let your back out in fire this summer. It's gonna

1882
01:47:28,560 --> 01:47:31,720
Speaker 1: help you out in ten years. Or we understand that

1883
01:47:32,240 --> 01:47:35,880
Speaker 1: California is environmentally a very environmentally progressive in friendly state,

1884
01:47:36,240 --> 01:47:38,040
Speaker 1: we need to build a bunch of logging roads through

1885
01:47:38,080 --> 01:47:39,920
Speaker 1: this national force and cut down a ship ton of

1886
01:47:40,000 --> 01:47:43,000
Speaker 1: trees to save. And that's that's I think ends up

1887
01:47:43,080 --> 01:47:47,240
Speaker 1: what ends up happening around the more pragmatic approach of

1888
01:47:47,320 --> 01:47:50,360
Speaker 1: someone that's involved with wildlife, you know, like on the

1889
01:47:50,439 --> 01:47:54,800
Speaker 1: ground um decision making to say, hey, here's I love

1890
01:47:54,880 --> 01:47:57,040
Speaker 1: the environment, but I don't love it so much. I'm

1891
01:47:57,080 --> 01:47:59,360
Speaker 1: not gonna love it to death, right, which is what

1892
01:47:59,479 --> 01:48:02,880
Speaker 1: you're talking. Wow, So you talk about a pragmatic love,

1893
01:48:02,960 --> 01:48:05,120
Speaker 1: which is I think what most hunters hold and what

1894
01:48:05,320 --> 01:48:08,000
Speaker 1: most health fishermen hold and most outdoorsmen hold, which is

1895
01:48:08,120 --> 01:48:12,120
Speaker 1: the healthiest type of love, and an unhealthy type of love,

1896
01:48:12,200 --> 01:48:17,080
Speaker 1: which is love something without any context of how to

1897
01:48:17,280 --> 01:48:20,960
Speaker 1: really do it justice. Well, in my argument, my counter

1898
01:48:21,040 --> 01:48:24,000
Speaker 1: that would be you have the far left that are

1899
01:48:24,040 --> 01:48:25,720
Speaker 1: like I need this many grizzly barras because I want

1900
01:48:25,720 --> 01:48:27,960
Speaker 1: to get photos of them. But a lot of hunters,

1901
01:48:27,960 --> 01:48:30,720
Speaker 1: I bet you aren't super verse in genetics, you know,

1902
01:48:30,960 --> 01:48:33,720
Speaker 1: And that's I would say, are neither. Neither of those

1903
01:48:33,720 --> 01:48:36,280
Speaker 1: two folks are versed in genetics, right, neither. But I

1904
01:48:36,320 --> 01:48:41,200
Speaker 1: would say, like, those are probably two gaps that lead

1905
01:48:41,280 --> 01:48:44,639
Speaker 1: to opinions that are maybe uninformed to a certain degree.

1906
01:48:45,320 --> 01:48:48,639
Speaker 1: And then I'm not very willing to call out hunters

1907
01:48:49,200 --> 01:48:53,839
Speaker 1: right for what I believe is a deficiency and knowledge

1908
01:48:53,880 --> 01:48:57,280
Speaker 1: and opinion like that. I get super frustrated with certain

1909
01:48:57,360 --> 01:49:03,400
Speaker 1: groups in our world that fit that start their communication

1910
01:49:03,960 --> 01:49:09,840
Speaker 1: with their constituency of hunters by telling them hunting is

1911
01:49:09,960 --> 01:49:14,599
Speaker 1: always the always a solution, Hunting is always right, Hunting

1912
01:49:14,760 --> 01:49:20,640
Speaker 1: is the best thing to do always. Bullshit, bullshit, No,

1913
01:49:21,439 --> 01:49:27,639
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, not happening, Not happening. Um It's it would

1914
01:49:27,640 --> 01:49:29,920
Speaker 1: be just as well to say, like, here's the history

1915
01:49:29,960 --> 01:49:33,040
Speaker 1: of why this is good. Here's what's happened in the past,

1916
01:49:33,200 --> 01:49:37,960
Speaker 1: why our monologue conservation works, Here's why we here's why

1917
01:49:38,040 --> 01:49:40,839
Speaker 1: we is. The Rocky Mountain Foundation of Ducks Unlimited protect

1918
01:49:40,920 --> 01:49:44,439
Speaker 1: nesting grounds and and critical habitat for elk, and these

1919
01:49:44,479 --> 01:49:46,280
Speaker 1: are the things, these are why we do these things now,

1920
01:49:47,520 --> 01:49:49,840
Speaker 1: that should inform the way we think about grizzly bears.

1921
01:49:51,280 --> 01:49:54,920
Speaker 1: But that isn't We can't just blindly walk up to

1922
01:49:55,000 --> 01:49:57,880
Speaker 1: that and say hunt them, right, I can't do it. Well,

1923
01:49:58,000 --> 01:50:02,120
Speaker 1: it's hard because in the nineteen of any three, when

1924
01:50:02,160 --> 01:50:05,800
Speaker 1: a lot of these precedents sending setting legal measures were

1925
01:50:06,240 --> 01:50:11,120
Speaker 1: enacted into law, our environments weren't changing like they are today.

1926
01:50:11,520 --> 01:50:15,280
Speaker 1: So it's hard to say we have the numbers where

1927
01:50:15,280 --> 01:50:17,120
Speaker 1: we want them to be today, but we don't know

1928
01:50:17,160 --> 01:50:19,479
Speaker 1: what's going to happen to the rest of the pine trees.

1929
01:50:19,960 --> 01:50:22,320
Speaker 1: We don't know what's gonna happen to the snowpack. We

1930
01:50:22,400 --> 01:50:25,360
Speaker 1: don't know what's going to happen to you know, white

1931
01:50:25,400 --> 01:50:28,639
Speaker 1: deal white tailed deer populations. You know those girzly bears

1932
01:50:28,680 --> 01:50:30,519
Speaker 1: that you see pine nuts are now eating more meat.

1933
01:50:30,640 --> 01:50:32,439
Speaker 1: There's more hunters and people in the woods than ever,

1934
01:50:33,080 --> 01:50:36,080
Speaker 1: right for conflict, more cars than ever, more development than ever.

1935
01:50:36,160 --> 01:50:38,760
Speaker 1: So it's like, those are things that I think lead

1936
01:50:38,800 --> 01:50:41,120
Speaker 1: me to like I don't freaking know, Like I don't

1937
01:50:41,120 --> 01:50:43,479
Speaker 1: know what the answer is. It's yeah, I mean really

1938
01:50:43,560 --> 01:50:48,000
Speaker 1: damn complicated it's me, would you like, is I think

1939
01:50:48,040 --> 01:50:49,799
Speaker 1: you get to a point where, like, is your opinion

1940
01:50:49,920 --> 01:50:53,640
Speaker 1: that the least amount of bears killed possible is the

1941
01:50:53,760 --> 01:50:58,519
Speaker 1: right thing to do. My it's a hard answer for

1942
01:50:58,560 --> 01:50:59,960
Speaker 1: the short term, I know. Yeah, I know. It's just

1943
01:51:00,000 --> 01:51:03,040
Speaker 1: saying like, once, okay, let's let's say, let's let's get out,

1944
01:51:03,240 --> 01:51:08,200
Speaker 1: get off the table. Um, what might happen in the future.

1945
01:51:08,479 --> 01:51:11,599
Speaker 1: You know, for like the current that current population, um,

1946
01:51:12,920 --> 01:51:16,120
Speaker 1: there's seven hundred of them. The least number of those

1947
01:51:16,200 --> 01:51:18,519
Speaker 1: things killed, the better for the next three years, so

1948
01:51:18,640 --> 01:51:23,080
Speaker 1: we can see how that affects these other populations. Yeah,

1949
01:51:23,160 --> 01:51:26,280
Speaker 1: I mean I think that don't just say well, you

1950
01:51:26,320 --> 01:51:27,960
Speaker 1: know what, Okay, this is but I don't know. I don't.

1951
01:51:28,200 --> 01:51:32,280
Speaker 1: I will start just saying don't I do not disagree. No,

1952
01:51:32,600 --> 01:51:35,640
Speaker 1: And and I'm certainly they're like, my goal is to

1953
01:51:35,760 --> 01:51:38,840
Speaker 1: have grizzly bears off the es A managed by the States,

1954
01:51:39,439 --> 01:51:43,120
Speaker 1: because that means we succeeded. Conservation was a success. Yeah,

1955
01:51:43,160 --> 01:51:45,599
Speaker 1: So that yeah, that's I think we like, we get

1956
01:51:45,680 --> 01:51:48,439
Speaker 1: in a lot of these conversations where it's like I

1957
01:51:48,520 --> 01:51:52,040
Speaker 1: believe totally different. Again, I think most people that care

1958
01:51:52,040 --> 01:51:54,800
Speaker 1: about wildlife feel the same way. I feel exactly the

1959
01:51:54,840 --> 01:51:57,400
Speaker 1: same way. Anti hunters and hunters feel the same way.

1960
01:51:57,840 --> 01:52:02,760
Speaker 1: They're just really crappy. They're really crappy at getting like

1961
01:52:02,840 --> 01:52:05,120
Speaker 1: communicating or just remembering that Like you might speak to

1962
01:52:05,240 --> 01:52:08,120
Speaker 1: different languages, but you're like end results the same, Yes,

1963
01:52:08,400 --> 01:52:10,560
Speaker 1: you know and not and and listen because I'm not

1964
01:52:11,040 --> 01:52:14,840
Speaker 1: somebody who wants to run out and crack a grizzly bear. Um.

1965
01:52:18,640 --> 01:52:21,000
Speaker 1: I would say like if if, if this is if

1966
01:52:21,000 --> 01:52:22,880
Speaker 1: somebody presenting me a solution said like, just give me,

1967
01:52:23,280 --> 01:52:27,640
Speaker 1: give me five years, and you could, you know, scientifically,

1968
01:52:27,720 --> 01:52:31,599
Speaker 1: say here's here's how grizzly bears breed, how they grow,

1969
01:52:31,760 --> 01:52:36,560
Speaker 1: how they travel, how critical populations can seed other populations,

1970
01:52:36,880 --> 01:52:39,720
Speaker 1: and if you give me six years as a scientist

1971
01:52:40,280 --> 01:52:43,519
Speaker 1: an ecologist, six years, I can come and report back

1972
01:52:43,560 --> 01:52:47,280
Speaker 1: and tell you that that worked, like which it sounds

1973
01:52:47,320 --> 01:52:51,559
Speaker 1: like could be done, right. I would be like, cool, great,

1974
01:52:52,320 --> 01:52:54,760
Speaker 1: let's give it a shot. But if you fail, we're

1975
01:52:54,800 --> 01:52:57,240
Speaker 1: coming in with our guns. But like something like that

1976
01:52:57,400 --> 01:53:00,920
Speaker 1: would probably be you know, because it gets the legal

1977
01:53:01,000 --> 01:53:03,559
Speaker 1: thing starts to just get frustrating. Well, I think that's

1978
01:53:03,640 --> 01:53:06,000
Speaker 1: kind of what he says here. He's like, here's some

1979
01:53:06,160 --> 01:53:08,400
Speaker 1: things like here's your homework. You know, this is what

1980
01:53:08,520 --> 01:53:10,120
Speaker 1: I this is the these are the flaws that I

1981
01:53:10,240 --> 01:53:15,679
Speaker 1: found from a from illegal and also uh conceptual place

1982
01:53:16,560 --> 01:53:19,360
Speaker 1: address that and let's get these things that this species

1983
01:53:19,439 --> 01:53:21,760
Speaker 1: to a place of stability, then the states can do

1984
01:53:21,800 --> 01:53:24,719
Speaker 1: what they want. Well if somebody can, like, please everybody

1985
01:53:24,760 --> 01:53:27,880
Speaker 1: agree on stability, because I think that's the thing here now,

1986
01:53:27,960 --> 01:53:30,080
Speaker 1: because you get into this, like let's make him stable,

1987
01:53:30,200 --> 01:53:33,759
Speaker 1: and anti hunters and rights folks will say, we'll always

1988
01:53:33,840 --> 01:53:36,000
Speaker 1: move the goalpost, right, I'm gonna just keep moving the

1989
01:53:36,040 --> 01:53:38,479
Speaker 1: goalpost back, back, back back, and you're never gonna get there.

1990
01:53:38,560 --> 01:53:41,439
Speaker 1: Ha ha ha. But history would say the opposite, we

1991
01:53:41,479 --> 01:53:44,719
Speaker 1: can hunt wolves. Yeah, well ten years ago. But would

1992
01:53:44,720 --> 01:53:49,160
Speaker 1: you agree that that's that's a tactic, right, because because

1993
01:53:49,200 --> 01:53:52,439
Speaker 1: any any uh animal rights person with where AsSalt that's

1994
01:53:52,439 --> 01:53:54,479
Speaker 1: got a brain is going to say, like, man, I

1995
01:53:54,560 --> 01:53:56,240
Speaker 1: can I'm not really gonna be able to argue very

1996
01:53:56,320 --> 01:54:00,479
Speaker 1: much with that model of conservation. Right, I'm gonna ail there,

1997
01:54:01,000 --> 01:54:02,840
Speaker 1: but I still don't want him to kill him. Well,

1998
01:54:02,920 --> 01:54:05,719
Speaker 1: I think those I think that's the left that won't

1999
01:54:05,760 --> 01:54:09,800
Speaker 1: ever like invite us to dinner, you know. So it's

2000
01:54:09,840 --> 01:54:12,280
Speaker 1: like but I know that they're out there, and I

2001
01:54:12,400 --> 01:54:14,920
Speaker 1: know the other sides out there, and they're never That's

2002
01:54:14,960 --> 01:54:16,960
Speaker 1: why I like, I hope people listening to this can

2003
01:54:17,040 --> 01:54:19,519
Speaker 1: gain the perspective that, like, I think there is a

2004
01:54:19,600 --> 01:54:23,120
Speaker 1: faction on on the animal right side that wants to

2005
01:54:23,160 --> 01:54:25,800
Speaker 1: continue to move the goal posts. I'm sure there is.

2006
01:54:26,520 --> 01:54:31,360
Speaker 1: It's it's evident, and I would imagine there's a faction

2007
01:54:31,400 --> 01:54:34,320
Speaker 1: in the hunting community that wants to move the goal

2008
01:54:34,400 --> 01:54:39,400
Speaker 1: post closer. I disagree with both. I mean it's to

2009
01:54:39,480 --> 01:54:41,720
Speaker 1: kill them all or save mo mentality. I disagree with

2010
01:54:41,800 --> 01:54:45,480
Speaker 1: both right, and I disagree with that the disingenuous like

2011
01:54:46,680 --> 01:54:50,840
Speaker 1: connection between that person who who on the animal right

2012
01:54:50,880 --> 01:54:54,080
Speaker 1: side wants to move the goal post connecting themselves with tourism,

2013
01:54:54,480 --> 01:54:57,200
Speaker 1: and I disagree with the person on the other side

2014
01:54:57,440 --> 01:55:01,880
Speaker 1: who's a hunter connecting themselves to the rancher. Sorry, you

2015
01:55:01,920 --> 01:55:06,280
Speaker 1: don't get to play right. I just That's part of

2016
01:55:06,320 --> 01:55:08,200
Speaker 1: what I hope people can take away from this conversation

2017
01:55:08,320 --> 01:55:12,920
Speaker 1: is like, don't let somebody can that that has this staunch,

2018
01:55:13,160 --> 01:55:18,480
Speaker 1: rigid idealism like idealistic view on one side or the

2019
01:55:18,560 --> 01:55:23,560
Speaker 1: other connect use use a real world problem to convince

2020
01:55:23,640 --> 01:55:28,560
Speaker 1: you that they're right. No, man, no, it's it's way

2021
01:55:28,600 --> 01:55:30,680
Speaker 1: more complicated than that. And I think that's the key.

2022
01:55:31,200 --> 01:55:34,800
Speaker 1: This is a freaking complicated issue. This is like really

2023
01:55:34,920 --> 01:55:37,080
Speaker 1: smart people who spend way more time thinking about this

2024
01:55:37,240 --> 01:55:39,720
Speaker 1: than you and me. I would say, like, this is

2025
01:55:40,000 --> 01:55:43,360
Speaker 1: freaking complicated, and we're gonna do our best, and we're

2026
01:55:43,360 --> 01:55:46,200
Speaker 1: gonna try to to create a blueprint moving forward that

2027
01:55:46,280 --> 01:55:50,839
Speaker 1: will be uh judicious and and as fair as possible.

2028
01:55:50,960 --> 01:55:53,760
Speaker 1: But like I guarantee you, this judge wasn't like this

2029
01:55:53,960 --> 01:55:56,080
Speaker 1: is easy. Let's like, let me just tell you what's up.

2030
01:55:56,280 --> 01:55:59,400
Speaker 1: That's my favorite that's my favorite part about society today.

2031
01:55:59,760 --> 01:56:03,040
Speaker 1: That's like, if something happens that you disagree with, the

2032
01:56:03,200 --> 01:56:05,879
Speaker 1: person who made that decision that you discroe with immediately

2033
01:56:06,000 --> 01:56:11,160
Speaker 1: is some sort of evil bought Like oh, it's that

2034
01:56:11,280 --> 01:56:13,920
Speaker 1: dark money must have bought that because anal rights guys

2035
01:56:14,040 --> 01:56:17,000
Speaker 1: must have paid that judge off. Maybe they did. Maybe

2036
01:56:17,040 --> 01:56:19,000
Speaker 1: you're right, but I'm not. I'm not interested in that

2037
01:56:19,080 --> 01:56:21,960
Speaker 1: conversation because if that happened, hopefully somebody finds it, they

2038
01:56:22,040 --> 01:56:26,160
Speaker 1: arrest that fucker and put him in jail. Otherwise, otherwise,

2039
01:56:26,280 --> 01:56:29,080
Speaker 1: let's just have the conversation because we can't. I'm not

2040
01:56:29,120 --> 01:56:31,560
Speaker 1: going to start the conversation with some crazy conspiracy theory

2041
01:56:31,640 --> 01:56:35,280
Speaker 1: like that. And and I think what I trust in

2042
01:56:35,320 --> 01:56:37,360
Speaker 1: your readings of that is that that that decisions a

2043
01:56:37,440 --> 01:56:39,520
Speaker 1: person who looked at the law, which is his job

2044
01:56:40,240 --> 01:56:43,040
Speaker 1: and his determination, was the way this law is written,

2045
01:56:43,320 --> 01:56:45,360
Speaker 1: this isn't the right thing to do. And I think,

2046
01:56:45,400 --> 01:56:46,960
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, and if learn anything

2047
01:56:47,000 --> 01:56:50,920
Speaker 1: from interm elections is the public is hungry for people

2048
01:56:50,960 --> 01:56:53,800
Speaker 1: who straddle the middle and who are flexible and the like.

2049
01:56:54,440 --> 01:56:56,440
Speaker 1: I had a vegan dinner yesterday, but I shouted during

2050
01:56:56,480 --> 01:56:59,360
Speaker 1: my dough. I shot it, tearing my daddy. I shot

2051
01:56:59,400 --> 01:57:01,120
Speaker 1: a deer in my yard it last night. That was

2052
01:57:01,200 --> 01:57:04,600
Speaker 1: kind of my weak story, you know. But that's I'm

2053
01:57:04,720 --> 01:57:07,440
Speaker 1: hungry for that. I am hungry for that in my

2054
01:57:07,560 --> 01:57:11,360
Speaker 1: daily life. And and I think I'm sure there's a

2055
01:57:11,400 --> 01:57:13,000
Speaker 1: lot of people that are hungry for that too, that

2056
01:57:13,080 --> 01:57:19,800
Speaker 1: are hungry for that type of world where, um, it's

2057
01:57:19,840 --> 01:57:23,840
Speaker 1: not easy because it's super easy to be rigid because

2058
01:57:23,880 --> 01:57:26,640
Speaker 1: then you don't have to think just a reaction. You

2059
01:57:26,760 --> 01:57:30,680
Speaker 1: don't have to if if everything as a hunter, if

2060
01:57:30,760 --> 01:57:34,560
Speaker 1: all I was doing was looking for validation for my opinions.

2061
01:57:35,400 --> 01:57:37,440
Speaker 1: Life would be easy because I would know who to hate,

2062
01:57:37,600 --> 01:57:39,800
Speaker 1: I would know who to like, I would know who

2063
01:57:39,840 --> 01:57:41,640
Speaker 1: to have dinner with, I would know who to keep

2064
01:57:41,680 --> 01:57:45,240
Speaker 1: out of my yard. It just makes life easier. And

2065
01:57:45,560 --> 01:57:49,600
Speaker 1: and I think at some level, I I care about

2066
01:57:49,640 --> 01:57:52,320
Speaker 1: the hunting community. I care about humanity, but I don't

2067
01:57:52,320 --> 01:57:55,240
Speaker 1: feel like I can do much with that hunting community.

2068
01:57:55,280 --> 01:57:58,200
Speaker 1: I think we can work with here and we can say, Look,

2069
01:57:58,480 --> 01:58:00,600
Speaker 1: I care about you. I don't want you to be that.

2070
01:58:01,240 --> 01:58:05,920
Speaker 1: I don't want you to be so rigid that you

2071
01:58:06,000 --> 01:58:10,640
Speaker 1: can't see. I don't want you to be so so idealistic,

2072
01:58:10,920 --> 01:58:13,000
Speaker 1: you know, or idealist not the right word, but so

2073
01:58:13,120 --> 01:58:15,600
Speaker 1: rigid that you're blind as I guess what I would say, Well,

2074
01:58:15,680 --> 01:58:18,640
Speaker 1: not to be nerdy. But there's a theory of island biogeography.

2075
01:58:19,080 --> 01:58:22,080
Speaker 1: So if you think about the condaday, if you think

2076
01:58:22,120 --> 01:58:25,360
Speaker 1: about your little island out in the middle of the ocean,

2077
01:58:26,000 --> 01:58:29,000
Speaker 1: the number the probability that new species will show up

2078
01:58:29,160 --> 01:58:31,480
Speaker 1: is small the further from the mainland you are on

2079
01:58:31,520 --> 01:58:34,720
Speaker 1: the smaller island. So if you're a person and you

2080
01:58:34,800 --> 01:58:37,480
Speaker 1: have your little island with your little tribe of people

2081
01:58:37,560 --> 01:58:39,920
Speaker 1: who are all saying the same thing. I hate all

2082
01:58:39,960 --> 01:58:42,080
Speaker 1: of you. I love all of you. You're not getting

2083
01:58:42,080 --> 01:58:44,120
Speaker 1: a lot of new information because you're way the hell

2084
01:58:44,160 --> 01:58:45,200
Speaker 1: out in the middle of the ocean. You're on a

2085
01:58:45,240 --> 01:58:48,440
Speaker 1: small island. The bigger the island and the closer yard

2086
01:58:48,560 --> 01:58:52,480
Speaker 1: the to the mainland, the more other species will show up,

2087
01:58:52,520 --> 01:58:55,520
Speaker 1: and you're gonna have a more diverse suite of perspectives

2088
01:58:55,720 --> 01:58:57,680
Speaker 1: of an ecosystem. And I think it's important to remember

2089
01:58:57,720 --> 01:59:00,600
Speaker 1: that that it's all about saying I'm not going to

2090
01:59:00,720 --> 01:59:03,280
Speaker 1: cast myself out into the abyss until everybody go fund

2091
01:59:03,320 --> 01:59:07,360
Speaker 1: themselves if they're not speaking my language. But instead it's like, hey,

2092
01:59:08,360 --> 01:59:10,520
Speaker 1: coming to the table, let's have a conversation. Maybe I'll

2093
01:59:10,600 --> 01:59:13,080
Speaker 1: change my mind. And I think that's the mindset that

2094
01:59:13,160 --> 01:59:16,040
Speaker 1: makes progress and makes things like this grizzly berry issue

2095
01:59:16,600 --> 01:59:19,920
Speaker 1: all the more palatable because you realize it's these are

2096
01:59:20,080 --> 01:59:24,040
Speaker 1: people trying their best, trying to manage an animal that

2097
01:59:24,880 --> 01:59:29,920
Speaker 1: is scary and lovable. Well, And I think I think

2098
01:59:30,000 --> 01:59:35,320
Speaker 1: that's why UM, as a journalism uh trying to be

2099
01:59:35,400 --> 01:59:37,200
Speaker 1: a student of journalism. I try, and I was at

2100
01:59:37,280 --> 01:59:39,280
Speaker 1: some point they gave me a piece of paper. Um.

2101
01:59:40,080 --> 01:59:45,760
Speaker 1: I think that's why true journalism. Honest, true, unimpeded information

2102
01:59:46,760 --> 01:59:51,240
Speaker 1: is being suppressed in our world because that's dangerous, right,

2103
01:59:51,680 --> 01:59:57,520
Speaker 1: it's dangerous. You can't manipulate people if they're educated. You can't.

2104
01:59:57,920 --> 02:00:01,360
Speaker 1: And the one thing that scared me around the midterm

2105
02:00:01,400 --> 02:00:04,080
Speaker 1: elections was the amount of people that I heard, even

2106
02:00:04,120 --> 02:00:06,200
Speaker 1: whether I agree with him or not, I think public

2107
02:00:06,280 --> 02:00:09,000
Speaker 1: Lands is a huge you know, I love public Lands.

2108
02:00:09,040 --> 02:00:12,000
Speaker 1: We talked about that in the beginning of this, but

2109
02:00:12,200 --> 02:00:16,360
Speaker 1: public Lands is it's becoming something that people just say,

2110
02:00:17,800 --> 02:00:19,880
Speaker 1: and that's just dangerous just because I agree with it.

2111
02:00:20,000 --> 02:00:21,520
Speaker 1: Let's say I didn't agree with it, I would be

2112
02:00:21,960 --> 02:00:25,800
Speaker 1: mortified that everybody was just parting the same thing. And

2113
02:00:25,920 --> 02:00:31,200
Speaker 1: so I feel the midterm elections scared me because of

2114
02:00:31,200 --> 02:00:34,520
Speaker 1: the amount of people I saw that were just rolling

2115
02:00:34,560 --> 02:00:39,320
Speaker 1: out the campaign at jargon and comments on things that

2116
02:00:39,400 --> 02:00:44,040
Speaker 1: I saw. It's like, boys, you ought not to want

2117
02:00:44,040 --> 02:00:47,840
Speaker 1: to be a sheep. You should strive to be more right,

2118
02:00:48,160 --> 02:00:50,960
Speaker 1: you know, and for the health of the hunting community,

2119
02:00:53,480 --> 02:00:55,240
Speaker 1: we should, you know, strive to be a little bit

2120
02:00:55,280 --> 02:01:00,080
Speaker 1: more and to be it's good to be provocative, but

2121
02:01:00,200 --> 02:01:03,880
Speaker 1: from a place of curiosity, you know, and I think,

2122
02:01:04,040 --> 02:01:05,720
Speaker 1: you know, one of the things it's hard for me

2123
02:01:05,840 --> 02:01:08,640
Speaker 1: not to, you know, be thinking about my friends and

2124
02:01:08,680 --> 02:01:12,160
Speaker 1: family back in California. Um, but it's also hard to

2125
02:01:12,200 --> 02:01:15,200
Speaker 1: ignore something that Trump was saying the other day where

2126
02:01:15,200 --> 02:01:18,080
Speaker 1: he's like, this is a state issue. When the governor

2127
02:01:18,120 --> 02:01:20,520
Speaker 1: asked for federal support, he said no, because you're not

2128
02:01:20,600 --> 02:01:24,200
Speaker 1: managing your force. Well, the force in California owned by

2129
02:01:24,200 --> 02:01:27,960
Speaker 1: the federal government, owned by private companies or private individuals,

2130
02:01:28,480 --> 02:01:31,080
Speaker 1: three owned by the state. So he's putting that out

2131
02:01:31,160 --> 02:01:35,520
Speaker 1: there into the world, polarizing people. People who aren't going

2132
02:01:35,560 --> 02:01:38,040
Speaker 1: to go and do their homework and figure out the

2133
02:01:38,160 --> 02:01:40,920
Speaker 1: distribution of ownership are gonna be like, oh, well, they

2134
02:01:41,240 --> 02:01:43,920
Speaker 1: asked for it. I hate when needed Trump goes into

2135
02:01:43,920 --> 02:01:49,120
Speaker 1: the conversation because he is the lead asshole. He is

2136
02:01:49,160 --> 02:01:50,880
Speaker 1: what we're just talking about. I was thinking that you

2137
02:01:51,000 --> 02:01:55,360
Speaker 1: said it. I don't care. I don't care if you listen,

2138
02:01:55,400 --> 02:01:56,960
Speaker 1: If you're out there and you support Donald Trumping, you

2139
02:01:57,000 --> 02:01:59,720
Speaker 1: don't think he's an asshole? Boy, what, I don't know

2140
02:01:59,800 --> 02:02:03,480
Speaker 1: what you're reading, because, yeah, it's about to be Thanksgiving

2141
02:02:03,520 --> 02:02:06,160
Speaker 1: pretty soon. If somebody that acted like Donald Trump does

2142
02:02:06,240 --> 02:02:08,800
Speaker 1: on Twitter was at your Thanksgiving, you would want to

2143
02:02:08,920 --> 02:02:13,040
Speaker 1: kick them out. Immediately, and and and so I hate

2144
02:02:13,080 --> 02:02:16,120
Speaker 1: what you hate what I hate When he whether you

2145
02:02:16,160 --> 02:02:17,880
Speaker 1: agree with what he was saying or not, you'd be like,

2146
02:02:18,240 --> 02:02:22,680
Speaker 1: why is this guy at the table spouting offer and

2147
02:02:22,880 --> 02:02:25,760
Speaker 1: just talking ship? That's not true, that's not true, and

2148
02:02:25,880 --> 02:02:30,120
Speaker 1: it's really a pity dated and and I can't bring

2149
02:02:30,240 --> 02:02:32,120
Speaker 1: facts to the table. Maybe one thing if he was

2150
02:02:32,200 --> 02:02:35,880
Speaker 1: off by a few percentage, but California owns three percent

2151
02:02:36,000 --> 02:02:40,920
Speaker 1: of their forests, and the fact that there's one million

2152
02:02:40,960 --> 02:02:43,360
Speaker 1: dead trees is not we can we can all. It's

2153
02:02:43,400 --> 02:02:48,080
Speaker 1: it's so like we just elected the lead person of

2154
02:02:48,160 --> 02:02:50,520
Speaker 1: what you like, the person we're just talking about, like

2155
02:02:50,640 --> 02:02:54,320
Speaker 1: the person like really, let's let's be a radical centrist,

2156
02:02:54,400 --> 02:02:56,760
Speaker 1: let's really think through issues, let's really be you know,

2157
02:02:56,880 --> 02:03:00,640
Speaker 1: have have uh sound processes around how we come to

2158
02:03:00,680 --> 02:03:03,080
Speaker 1: our opinions. Here's a person who we elected to run

2159
02:03:03,160 --> 02:03:07,360
Speaker 1: our country, who got elected in part because he doesn't

2160
02:03:08,080 --> 02:03:13,160
Speaker 1: do that or give a ship or give right. I

2161
02:03:13,320 --> 02:03:16,720
Speaker 1: can't I hate even to talk about it, but but

2162
02:03:16,800 --> 02:03:20,360
Speaker 1: I think what what he's saying. He's not saying something

2163
02:03:20,440 --> 02:03:27,280
Speaker 1: that's totally inflammatory. Manage your forest, manage your forest. But well,

2164
02:03:27,320 --> 02:03:29,680
Speaker 1: and that's if but if that state voted for him,

2165
02:03:30,840 --> 02:03:34,120
Speaker 1: they'd be flying in the helicopters. I think like if

2166
02:03:34,200 --> 02:03:35,960
Speaker 1: that wasn't you know, if they had didn't have a

2167
02:03:36,040 --> 02:03:40,880
Speaker 1: democratic they have a democratic governor in California. I really

2168
02:03:40,920 --> 02:03:43,520
Speaker 1: think if that was a Republican governor asking, he wouldn't

2169
02:03:43,520 --> 02:03:45,920
Speaker 1: have got he would have got a different answer. But

2170
02:03:46,040 --> 02:03:49,880
Speaker 1: it's just it's it's horrible when in this case, people

2171
02:03:50,280 --> 02:03:56,520
Speaker 1: and ecosystems are caught in the polarized crossfire of humanity

2172
02:03:57,560 --> 02:04:00,120
Speaker 1: and in the case the grizzly bear, these are air

2173
02:04:00,240 --> 02:04:02,240
Speaker 1: is just trying to be freaking bears. You burning it

2174
02:04:02,320 --> 02:04:04,960
Speaker 1: up there out there, just they're burning it up. Yeah,

2175
02:04:05,240 --> 02:04:07,920
Speaker 1: they're just being fund Is that right? Is that how

2176
02:04:07,960 --> 02:04:09,720
Speaker 1: you use that term? Yes, that would be that the

2177
02:04:09,800 --> 02:04:15,200
Speaker 1: right episode. Yeah, that would actually mean they're reproducing or

2178
02:04:15,320 --> 02:04:18,840
Speaker 1: their potential for countity is is how many offspring you're

2179
02:04:18,840 --> 02:04:21,320
Speaker 1: able to have? Like ron Berg, anyway you win in Rome, Like,

2180
02:04:21,360 --> 02:04:23,440
Speaker 1: I don't know what it means. I'm not there yet.

2181
02:04:23,520 --> 02:04:26,840
Speaker 1: I'll get there. It's crazy because like in this case,

2182
02:04:26,880 --> 02:04:29,240
Speaker 1: the grizzly bears are in this case, people and ecosystems

2183
02:04:29,320 --> 02:04:33,080
Speaker 1: are just caught in between our inability to find common

2184
02:04:33,120 --> 02:04:36,000
Speaker 1: ground or be radical centrists, you know, and instead it's

2185
02:04:36,000 --> 02:04:38,840
Speaker 1: like fuck you, fuck you and nothing really gets done

2186
02:04:39,480 --> 02:04:42,440
Speaker 1: and then get Yeah, when people are dying, we should

2187
02:04:42,440 --> 02:04:46,000
Speaker 1: do the right thing always like hundreds, maybe up to

2188
02:04:46,080 --> 02:04:48,640
Speaker 1: a thousand. Yeah, I mean it's it's it's unbelievable. And

2189
02:04:48,640 --> 02:04:50,640
Speaker 1: then just so people know that, you know, this is

2190
02:04:50,680 --> 02:04:54,280
Speaker 1: your your home statement. You know. I worked with somebody

2191
02:04:54,320 --> 02:04:56,480
Speaker 1: from Paradise, the guy used to dunk duck hunt with.

2192
02:04:56,560 --> 02:04:59,480
Speaker 1: I haven't talked to him, um hopefully. I don't think

2193
02:04:59,520 --> 02:05:02,400
Speaker 1: he lives, Aren Moore, But yeah, I mean it's it's

2194
02:05:03,880 --> 02:05:05,640
Speaker 1: I can't imagine what was happening in my area of

2195
02:05:05,640 --> 02:05:09,080
Speaker 1: the world. I mean, it is, it's terrible. I mean,

2196
02:05:09,120 --> 02:05:12,400
Speaker 1: my dad has respiratory issues because of the smoke, and

2197
02:05:12,480 --> 02:05:14,760
Speaker 1: he's talked to the last night. He's sitting in front

2198
02:05:14,800 --> 02:05:17,000
Speaker 1: of the air filter with all the doors and windows

2199
02:05:17,040 --> 02:05:21,920
Speaker 1: shut in a room, you know. I mean it's crazy. Yeah,

2200
02:05:21,960 --> 02:05:28,000
Speaker 1: I mean it just goes back to the fact that

2201
02:05:28,040 --> 02:05:35,240
Speaker 1: we should all strive for health, Like do you healthy ecosystems?

2202
02:05:35,680 --> 02:05:40,480
Speaker 1: Do you like both sides anybody, whatever side you fall

2203
02:05:40,560 --> 02:05:42,800
Speaker 1: on that you read a love and that forest death

2204
02:05:42,920 --> 02:05:46,320
Speaker 1: or want to cut it up? You know, like you

2205
02:05:46,360 --> 02:05:49,000
Speaker 1: should act with the health of that ecosystem always in mind.

2206
02:05:49,440 --> 02:05:51,720
Speaker 1: If you if you did, you wouldn't be breathed in smoke,

2207
02:05:52,280 --> 02:05:55,480
Speaker 1: right in. A healthy ecosystem affords a healthy society, and

2208
02:05:55,560 --> 02:05:58,800
Speaker 1: I think people now unfortunately being reminded of that through

2209
02:05:58,920 --> 02:06:05,320
Speaker 1: horrible things, these hurricanes and these fires, and it means

2210
02:06:05,400 --> 02:06:08,160
Speaker 1: something when like your world is destroyed, you know, And

2211
02:06:08,240 --> 02:06:12,400
Speaker 1: I think people will in the Southeast will continue to say, like, ship,

2212
02:06:12,600 --> 02:06:15,920
Speaker 1: whatever we want to call it, hurricanes are getting worse,

2213
02:06:16,160 --> 02:06:19,280
Speaker 1: waters rising, Let's figure out how we can address that,

2214
02:06:19,720 --> 02:06:21,880
Speaker 1: whatever you want to call it. Our forests are going

2215
02:06:22,960 --> 02:06:25,280
Speaker 1: up in flames, and let's figure out how to address that.

2216
02:06:26,240 --> 02:06:29,480
Speaker 1: Because if you're because there's just this like level of

2217
02:06:29,800 --> 02:06:35,320
Speaker 1: having an opinion about something you very much know nothing about,

2218
02:06:35,520 --> 02:06:38,560
Speaker 1: right like in the example of even me, like I've

2219
02:06:38,560 --> 02:06:43,480
Speaker 1: seen the California fires on TV, but I've never experienced that.

2220
02:06:43,960 --> 02:06:45,560
Speaker 1: I don't know what it feels like to have to

2221
02:06:45,680 --> 02:06:49,400
Speaker 1: leave your home. People that have people that are well

2222
02:06:49,440 --> 02:06:51,240
Speaker 1: off that that happens to you can go get a hotel,

2223
02:06:52,400 --> 02:06:58,320
Speaker 1: hang out, drink some sparkling water. We're all good. It

2224
02:06:58,440 --> 02:07:01,320
Speaker 1: was fun, maybe like a vacation. People that aren't well

2225
02:07:01,360 --> 02:07:03,360
Speaker 1: off that are scraping to get by they have to evacuate,

2226
02:07:03,400 --> 02:07:07,280
Speaker 1: are fucked right, They're just not that they can't do

2227
02:07:09,040 --> 02:07:13,320
Speaker 1: what um other folks can do. So when you're displaced

2228
02:07:13,600 --> 02:07:18,600
Speaker 1: by a natural disaster, man, there's no there's no there's

2229
02:07:18,640 --> 02:07:22,520
Speaker 1: nothing to rip away your safety. All the all the

2230
02:07:22,600 --> 02:07:24,960
Speaker 1: work we do to build this, to isolate ourselves, to

2231
02:07:25,040 --> 02:07:28,280
Speaker 1: insulate ourselves from the real world, there's nothing like a

2232
02:07:28,440 --> 02:07:34,120
Speaker 1: natural disaster to rip that from you. Nothing like it. Yeah,

2233
02:07:34,120 --> 02:07:37,160
Speaker 1: And I think it boils down to a lot of it,

2234
02:07:37,840 --> 02:07:42,800
Speaker 1: this idea that we can be bombarded with information that

2235
02:07:43,080 --> 02:07:47,800
Speaker 1: is polarized or just straight up bullshit. And I think

2236
02:07:47,800 --> 02:07:51,480
Speaker 1: about social media just for an extent, and the people

2237
02:07:51,520 --> 02:07:53,920
Speaker 1: who the people who will chime in and say things

2238
02:07:54,520 --> 02:07:59,000
Speaker 1: as though they're an expert and get away with it.

2239
02:08:00,040 --> 02:08:02,160
Speaker 1: This is crazy. I mean, I think about the environment.

2240
02:08:02,200 --> 02:08:06,680
Speaker 1: I went to school for ten years at UC Berkeley

2241
02:08:07,000 --> 02:08:09,640
Speaker 1: studying ecology. That was my profession. Like a mechanic goes

2242
02:08:09,720 --> 02:08:13,120
Speaker 1: and becomes a professional fixing cars, or you fly planes,

2243
02:08:13,160 --> 02:08:16,200
Speaker 1: and that's what you do. There isn't a group of

2244
02:08:16,280 --> 02:08:19,480
Speaker 1: people on the internet telling people how to fly planes.

2245
02:08:20,000 --> 02:08:21,839
Speaker 1: There isn't a group of people who have never climbed

2246
02:08:22,040 --> 02:08:24,240
Speaker 1: l caps saying, oh, ship, this is how I did it.

2247
02:08:24,400 --> 02:08:27,360
Speaker 1: I wouldn't do it that way. But there is an

2248
02:08:27,480 --> 02:08:35,480
Speaker 1: incredibly loud group of people who have zero ecological, environmental

2249
02:08:35,560 --> 02:08:41,000
Speaker 1: scientific background spouting off about ship they don't get. But

2250
02:08:41,400 --> 02:08:44,560
Speaker 1: that becomes gospel in a lot of places and a

2251
02:08:44,600 --> 02:08:47,720
Speaker 1: lot of communities, and it's crazy. I get it. You

2252
02:08:47,720 --> 02:08:49,400
Speaker 1: can look out the way and say force on fire,

2253
02:08:49,640 --> 02:08:53,640
Speaker 1: ships messed up. But to start pointing fingers and being

2254
02:08:53,720 --> 02:08:56,200
Speaker 1: like this is why. It's like I'm not going to

2255
02:08:56,360 --> 02:08:58,000
Speaker 1: napple out of parts and be like you don't know

2256
02:08:58,000 --> 02:09:00,440
Speaker 1: how to fucking put a tire on? I do this way.

2257
02:09:01,600 --> 02:09:03,760
Speaker 1: But for some reason or know, the environment is this

2258
02:09:03,920 --> 02:09:07,640
Speaker 1: like free for all where anybody can be an expert

2259
02:09:07,680 --> 02:09:09,760
Speaker 1: overnight and talk about whatever they want to talk about,

2260
02:09:09,800 --> 02:09:15,400
Speaker 1: over fishing, wildlife management, rising seas, forced, you know, ecology.

2261
02:09:16,520 --> 02:09:19,880
Speaker 1: It's my brother. When we were moving up here, my

2262
02:09:20,040 --> 02:09:23,400
Speaker 1: brother and I and my dad were driving through North Texas,

2263
02:09:24,680 --> 02:09:29,240
Speaker 1: rolling through in a U haul and um, we're driving

2264
02:09:29,240 --> 02:09:33,000
Speaker 1: through an area where there's windmills, I mean probably a

2265
02:09:33,120 --> 02:09:39,000
Speaker 1: thousand of them within site of the highway. When I

2266
02:09:39,120 --> 02:09:43,120
Speaker 1: see that, when I saw that, I'm like somebody who

2267
02:09:43,160 --> 02:09:50,560
Speaker 1: like loves while places, like appreciates landscapes. Like my first

2268
02:09:50,600 --> 02:09:54,040
Speaker 1: reaction was like, God, that sucks. And my brother, who

2269
02:09:55,040 --> 02:09:58,960
Speaker 1: you know, like really cares about the environment and is

2270
02:09:59,720 --> 02:10:02,000
Speaker 1: really hyped up about that like me, they got pissed

2271
02:10:02,000 --> 02:10:06,840
Speaker 1: at me. And the conversation we had around it was

2272
02:10:06,960 --> 02:10:09,640
Speaker 1: very much like windmills are always good. Yes, He's like

2273
02:10:09,800 --> 02:10:13,320
Speaker 1: gas and oil drilling is always bad. Windmills are helped

2274
02:10:13,360 --> 02:10:16,160
Speaker 1: as a solution. And I was like, yeah, yeah, I

2275
02:10:16,240 --> 02:10:18,560
Speaker 1: think I get that. I can get on more with that,

2276
02:10:19,400 --> 02:10:22,320
Speaker 1: like just as yes, my the pragmatic nature of like

2277
02:10:22,400 --> 02:10:24,040
Speaker 1: the way I see that, I'm like, yeah, but they

2278
02:10:24,120 --> 02:10:27,720
Speaker 1: had the I've seen those big windmill propellers going down

2279
02:10:27,760 --> 02:10:31,080
Speaker 1: the highway on on eighteen wheelers. I've seen it. I

2280
02:10:31,160 --> 02:10:33,360
Speaker 1: used to live in the corridor and in Illinois where

2281
02:10:33,360 --> 02:10:36,400
Speaker 1: they ran them stuff Like I've seen that, and I

2282
02:10:36,560 --> 02:10:38,560
Speaker 1: know that they haven't cut roads to get in there

2283
02:10:38,600 --> 02:10:40,440
Speaker 1: and put those things up, and I know they kill

2284
02:10:40,480 --> 02:10:44,480
Speaker 1: a lot of birds, and I know like it. And

2285
02:10:44,600 --> 02:10:48,360
Speaker 1: my I guess my point was like it's complicated. So

2286
02:10:49,040 --> 02:10:50,920
Speaker 1: I'm not saying that I know. I'm just saying I

2287
02:10:51,000 --> 02:10:55,400
Speaker 1: know it's complicated. I mean it's like domestic oil versus international.

2288
02:10:55,680 --> 02:10:57,760
Speaker 1: Do you want the Niger River Delta that lightening on

2289
02:10:57,840 --> 02:11:00,360
Speaker 1: fire because illegal oil is such a big part of

2290
02:11:00,400 --> 02:11:03,440
Speaker 1: their economy, Or do you want oil that's offshore that

2291
02:11:03,640 --> 02:11:07,240
Speaker 1: could come up, you know, like the Horizon oil spill.

2292
02:11:07,280 --> 02:11:10,800
Speaker 1: Where it's in our backyards. Maybe we have more regulation

2293
02:11:10,880 --> 02:11:16,040
Speaker 1: and higher standards of of practice, but it's like it's

2294
02:11:16,080 --> 02:11:20,120
Speaker 1: freaking complicated. You know. Maybe it makes our economy uh

2295
02:11:20,400 --> 02:11:25,879
Speaker 1: stronger and less reliant on others, but it's in our backyards.

2296
02:11:26,120 --> 02:11:27,840
Speaker 1: You know, I don't know if there's a if there's

2297
02:11:27,880 --> 02:11:31,040
Speaker 1: a solution, Well, doesn't it get scary when I think

2298
02:11:31,080 --> 02:11:33,440
Speaker 1: it gets really scary when the course correction doesn't happen

2299
02:11:34,320 --> 02:11:39,920
Speaker 1: Because yeah, fires, hurricanes, We start to identify really bad

2300
02:11:40,000 --> 02:11:42,760
Speaker 1: things that are happening right and happening more frequently and

2301
02:11:42,840 --> 02:11:46,760
Speaker 1: more intensely. But what what scares me not that they happen,

2302
02:11:46,760 --> 02:11:49,640
Speaker 1: because disasters have happened through time, and humanity has marched

2303
02:11:49,640 --> 02:11:53,520
Speaker 1: on in our environments, have have thrived and in a

2304
02:11:53,600 --> 02:11:56,640
Speaker 1: lot of ways. But what scares me is that we

2305
02:11:56,720 --> 02:11:59,360
Speaker 1: can't course correct right like right now, we're not like

2306
02:11:59,440 --> 02:12:02,280
Speaker 1: would you agree we're not course correcting. Is it a

2307
02:12:02,400 --> 02:12:05,440
Speaker 1: yearly in California? These fires are happening getting worse. Well,

2308
02:12:05,480 --> 02:12:09,840
Speaker 1: so we've there was six years of historic drought. Top

2309
02:12:09,960 --> 02:12:13,400
Speaker 1: ten droughts took place in the two thousands ever on record.

2310
02:12:15,600 --> 02:12:21,880
Speaker 1: So that collection of droughts I think predisposed California to

2311
02:12:22,040 --> 02:12:26,480
Speaker 1: the extreme fires it's experiencing now. Also a legacy of

2312
02:12:26,520 --> 02:12:29,320
Speaker 1: fire suppression. You know Smokey the Bear, that was one

2313
02:12:29,360 --> 02:12:32,920
Speaker 1: of the worst things we ever did for forests in

2314
02:12:33,560 --> 02:12:38,760
Speaker 1: the Inner Mountain West, in the Mediterranean coastal California environment.

2315
02:12:39,040 --> 02:12:41,120
Speaker 1: What if we have a we do a film about fire.

2316
02:12:42,160 --> 02:12:43,520
Speaker 1: I mean, I think it. Fire is one of the

2317
02:12:43,640 --> 02:12:48,800
Speaker 1: most misunderstood aspects of our planet. If you read early

2318
02:12:49,240 --> 02:12:53,960
Speaker 1: journals of folks who explored California and horseback, they described

2319
02:12:54,000 --> 02:12:57,000
Speaker 1: the stare Nevada as a park like setting, those words

2320
02:12:57,320 --> 02:12:59,240
Speaker 1: because you could ride a horse at a gallop through

2321
02:12:59,280 --> 02:13:02,560
Speaker 1: the foothills or the mountains and not hit a tree.

2322
02:13:03,040 --> 02:13:08,400
Speaker 1: Because fire exists across the spectrum of intensity and frequency,

2323
02:13:09,400 --> 02:13:12,560
Speaker 1: and fires are returning to these patches of earth every

2324
02:13:12,760 --> 02:13:17,760
Speaker 1: one to three years, burning frequently, but low intensity, thinning

2325
02:13:17,840 --> 02:13:20,480
Speaker 1: the forests, creating that park like setting where you had

2326
02:13:20,560 --> 02:13:23,760
Speaker 1: some understory, but a lot of mature trees with some

2327
02:13:23,920 --> 02:13:26,320
Speaker 1: young ones where it didn't burn, and you would have

2328
02:13:26,360 --> 02:13:31,440
Speaker 1: had this patchwork. Now after you know the brilliance of

2329
02:13:31,960 --> 02:13:34,600
Speaker 1: the smoky the bear, you know motto came out and

2330
02:13:34,760 --> 02:13:38,760
Speaker 1: fire suppression became this huge thing that was necessary in

2331
02:13:38,960 --> 02:13:42,440
Speaker 1: some respects because people were moving into these wild interfaces.

2332
02:13:43,120 --> 02:13:45,960
Speaker 1: You're left with forests like we have up here at

2333
02:13:46,000 --> 02:13:50,120
Speaker 1: our local reservoir, where you literally have deadfall that you

2334
02:13:50,280 --> 02:13:53,240
Speaker 1: can't walk through because it hasn't been able to burn

2335
02:13:53,400 --> 02:13:58,160
Speaker 1: in ten twenty years. And when you have millions and

2336
02:13:58,280 --> 02:14:04,640
Speaker 1: millions of trees that are dead and you have warming winters,

2337
02:14:05,320 --> 02:14:07,920
Speaker 1: and I asked the dumb question real quick, why why

2338
02:14:07,960 --> 02:14:10,520
Speaker 1: doesn't it burn? Why can't it burn? We suppress it

2339
02:14:10,680 --> 02:14:12,640
Speaker 1: when a fire is in a lot of place except

2340
02:14:12,680 --> 02:14:16,240
Speaker 1: wilderness areas. If a fire starts, most fires are not

2341
02:14:16,320 --> 02:14:20,840
Speaker 1: started by lightning. Most fires started by people. They are

2342
02:14:20,920 --> 02:14:26,240
Speaker 1: put out to save property, in life or air quality.

2343
02:14:26,880 --> 02:14:32,000
Speaker 1: So unfortunately it's society saying protect me first that compounded

2344
02:14:32,080 --> 02:14:35,640
Speaker 1: over decades and decades has been like has led to

2345
02:14:35,760 --> 02:14:39,600
Speaker 1: the situation where we basically are surrounded by tinder boxes

2346
02:14:40,320 --> 02:14:43,200
Speaker 1: and that can't fire that cigarette or that you know,

2347
02:14:43,400 --> 02:14:46,720
Speaker 1: those sparks from that toe chain that weren't wasn't wrapped

2348
02:14:46,800 --> 02:14:49,880
Speaker 1: up properly. Doesn't just light a little one acre fire.

2349
02:14:50,040 --> 02:14:52,000
Speaker 1: These fires are hundreds of thousands of acres. I mean,

2350
02:14:52,160 --> 02:14:54,840
Speaker 1: California has had records setting fires like multiple in the

2351
02:14:54,920 --> 02:14:58,040
Speaker 1: last five years, and it's not you know, I was

2352
02:14:58,080 --> 02:15:02,040
Speaker 1: reading today that the our agency efforts to suppress or

2353
02:15:02,160 --> 02:15:05,920
Speaker 1: to control that fuel load, they've removed eight over eight

2354
02:15:06,000 --> 02:15:12,160
Speaker 1: hundred thousand trees. There's a million dead trees. So we've

2355
02:15:12,240 --> 02:15:15,960
Speaker 1: removed eight hundred thousands so far, and there's more trees

2356
02:15:15,960 --> 02:15:18,760
Speaker 1: are gonna be dying because right now it's like tropical

2357
02:15:19,120 --> 02:15:20,880
Speaker 1: in California. I'm gonna talk to my friend yesterday and

2358
02:15:20,880 --> 02:15:22,760
Speaker 1: Taho and he says, it's cold Levins. We didn't had

2359
02:15:22,800 --> 02:15:27,240
Speaker 1: to look a ring, so it's you know, I think

2360
02:15:27,280 --> 02:15:29,240
Speaker 1: California in a lot of Western states are gonna be

2361
02:15:29,280 --> 02:15:32,200
Speaker 1: forced to say, hey, I realized the public might not

2362
02:15:32,440 --> 02:15:35,760
Speaker 1: want us to log our forests and put fire, um

2363
02:15:36,120 --> 02:15:40,000
Speaker 1: you know, uh, logging roads through there or use prescribed

2364
02:15:40,120 --> 02:15:42,080
Speaker 1: prescribed fire, but we're gonna have to do that if

2365
02:15:42,120 --> 02:15:44,000
Speaker 1: we want to save people in property in the future.

2366
02:15:44,880 --> 02:15:47,280
Speaker 1: You know, And I mean I was in Nevada shooting

2367
02:15:47,280 --> 02:15:50,080
Speaker 1: the film on the Feral Horse issue this summer, and

2368
02:15:50,120 --> 02:15:52,760
Speaker 1: there's a five hundred thousand acre fire that burned through

2369
02:15:52,880 --> 02:15:57,880
Speaker 1: northern Nevada like insane. Twenty years ago fire big fires

2370
02:15:57,880 --> 02:16:02,160
Speaker 1: were ten thousand acres, twenty thousand acres. Yeah, man, that's

2371
02:16:03,040 --> 02:16:04,879
Speaker 1: I was trying to think, like what a good analogy

2372
02:16:04,920 --> 02:16:07,320
Speaker 1: would be for what's happening there. But I feel like

2373
02:16:07,360 --> 02:16:09,520
Speaker 1: it would fall short. I feel like anything you'd say

2374
02:16:09,560 --> 02:16:13,680
Speaker 1: would fall short of. It's just like we don't understand.

2375
02:16:13,760 --> 02:16:16,680
Speaker 1: It's like we we bought a house, we build a house.

2376
02:16:18,560 --> 02:16:21,040
Speaker 1: We don't understand how to take care of the land

2377
02:16:21,480 --> 02:16:25,760
Speaker 1: right especially now, because it's not we've we've we've pushed

2378
02:16:25,800 --> 02:16:29,440
Speaker 1: our environment past this threshold of normalcy where we can

2379
02:16:29,480 --> 02:16:31,800
Speaker 1: say in the past, things have happened this way, so

2380
02:16:31,880 --> 02:16:34,400
Speaker 1: we should prepare for that. Things that are happening or

2381
02:16:34,440 --> 02:16:37,880
Speaker 1: everybody's looking at the situation and holy shit, this is

2382
02:16:38,000 --> 02:16:41,560
Speaker 1: not even within the realm of possibly that we knew existed.

2383
02:16:41,800 --> 02:16:43,640
Speaker 1: This is I mean that fire that burned in Malibu.

2384
02:16:44,160 --> 02:16:47,280
Speaker 1: If you read the interviews of the firefighters, they're saying

2385
02:16:47,440 --> 02:16:51,840
Speaker 1: the Wolsey fire they're saying that fire can't even be managed,

2386
02:16:52,320 --> 02:16:54,680
Speaker 1: like water doesn't do anything that fire that fires creatings

2387
02:16:54,720 --> 02:16:57,520
Speaker 1: on weather systems. I mean, that's what's happening. These are

2388
02:16:58,000 --> 02:17:00,560
Speaker 1: these are fires that are that are creating their own

2389
02:17:01,400 --> 02:17:04,760
Speaker 1: life that doesn't exist in a textbook that says, let's

2390
02:17:04,879 --> 02:17:07,960
Speaker 1: teach you about fire ecology. These are like outliers to

2391
02:17:08,040 --> 02:17:11,920
Speaker 1: the tenth degree. We can't if the guy we're paying

2392
02:17:11,959 --> 02:17:14,520
Speaker 1: to have knowledge of how to stop something like well, listen,

2393
02:17:14,720 --> 02:17:18,760
Speaker 1: like that doesn't exist in books. Yeah, and I think

2394
02:17:18,800 --> 02:17:20,560
Speaker 1: it's hard too. It's like, you know, back to wild life,

2395
02:17:20,560 --> 02:17:23,160
Speaker 1: we're dealing with situations where it's like, okay, you have

2396
02:17:23,280 --> 02:17:28,240
Speaker 1: a bear, you have people populations increasing at incredible rates.

2397
02:17:28,440 --> 02:17:30,920
Speaker 1: Never you know, we're we're doing things to the environment,

2398
02:17:31,040 --> 02:17:33,600
Speaker 1: drawing on the environment in ways that have never been

2399
02:17:33,879 --> 02:17:36,320
Speaker 1: done before. So you can't. You kind of got to

2400
02:17:36,360 --> 02:17:38,680
Speaker 1: hand it to these people who are managers who are

2401
02:17:39,160 --> 02:17:42,800
Speaker 1: tasked with interpreting ship that's like totally foreign, and we

2402
02:17:42,959 --> 02:17:44,680
Speaker 1: the public like you should do better, and they're like,

2403
02:17:44,720 --> 02:17:46,080
Speaker 1: I don't even know what's like, I don't even know

2404
02:17:46,080 --> 02:17:48,880
Speaker 1: what this is anymore. It's talking about. But but there's

2405
02:17:48,920 --> 02:17:51,240
Speaker 1: so many throughout human history there. I always think about

2406
02:17:51,240 --> 02:17:54,240
Speaker 1: it this way. There are things we do we don't

2407
02:17:54,320 --> 02:17:59,760
Speaker 1: do now that if you win thirty years into the past,

2408
02:18:01,360 --> 02:18:03,040
Speaker 1: they would laugh at you said they don't do that.

2409
02:18:04,240 --> 02:18:07,960
Speaker 1: There's there's knowledge we've acquired that's changed our habits so much.

2410
02:18:09,160 --> 02:18:13,520
Speaker 1: That's something that your parents might have done you would

2411
02:18:13,560 --> 02:18:16,600
Speaker 1: laugh at today, you'd be like, how foolish smoke and

2412
02:18:16,640 --> 02:18:21,160
Speaker 1: while pregnant, what do you what like our knowledge base

2413
02:18:21,240 --> 02:18:24,560
Speaker 1: in our in our our species, our humanity changes so much.

2414
02:18:24,879 --> 02:18:28,440
Speaker 1: What type now? It's rapid with technology and what we

2415
02:18:28,480 --> 02:18:30,400
Speaker 1: can learn and what we can do. It's like, what

2416
02:18:30,520 --> 02:18:33,480
Speaker 1: are we It's like, we should know that we're ill equipped.

2417
02:18:34,200 --> 02:18:37,640
Speaker 1: We should know that we're ill equipped, because all you

2418
02:18:37,720 --> 02:18:39,120
Speaker 1: gotta do is look a few years back in the

2419
02:18:39,360 --> 02:18:41,000
Speaker 1: in the past and be like, well, we were ill

2420
02:18:41,000 --> 02:18:43,879
Speaker 1: equipped back then. You think right now, we gotta figure

2421
02:18:43,879 --> 02:18:47,160
Speaker 1: it out. So there's things we're doing right now, and

2422
02:18:47,320 --> 02:18:51,240
Speaker 1: fire suppression seems like it's one of them that years

2423
02:18:51,280 --> 02:18:53,240
Speaker 1: from now we'll look back and be like, boy, we

2424
02:18:53,360 --> 02:18:56,840
Speaker 1: were children when it comes to knowledge about these issues,

2425
02:18:57,160 --> 02:18:58,880
Speaker 1: you know, and I think it speaks to this like

2426
02:18:58,959 --> 02:19:02,160
Speaker 1: broader environmental we've been of of awareness and carrying and

2427
02:19:02,240 --> 02:19:05,080
Speaker 1: reducing impact. And you said everywhere, whether it's at Walmart

2428
02:19:05,520 --> 02:19:09,520
Speaker 1: or Target, or somebody's Instagram claiming there an environmentalist, or

2429
02:19:09,600 --> 02:19:11,480
Speaker 1: even our daily lives, like we probably wake up to

2430
02:19:11,520 --> 02:19:14,280
Speaker 1: a certain degree and say, like, I'm not gonna I'm

2431
02:19:14,280 --> 02:19:16,120
Speaker 1: gonna try to do the best I can to reduce

2432
02:19:16,160 --> 02:19:18,840
Speaker 1: my impact. And one thing that I talked about the

2433
02:19:18,920 --> 02:19:20,680
Speaker 1: other day, you know I made a post about on

2434
02:19:20,720 --> 02:19:23,560
Speaker 1: my Instagram, talked about my wife, is you know, you'll

2435
02:19:23,560 --> 02:19:26,360
Speaker 1: get shipped for shooting a deer, but you won't get

2436
02:19:26,360 --> 02:19:28,720
Speaker 1: shipped for buying that new coat. If we're talking about

2437
02:19:28,720 --> 02:19:32,280
Speaker 1: like net impact, everybody in America should go shoot a

2438
02:19:32,280 --> 02:19:35,440
Speaker 1: white tail deer because they're doing irreversible harms a lot

2439
02:19:35,480 --> 02:19:40,080
Speaker 1: of ecosystems. They're incredibly abundant at zero risk of disappearing

2440
02:19:40,120 --> 02:19:41,959
Speaker 1: in a lot of place and and I would say

2441
02:19:42,160 --> 02:19:45,480
Speaker 1: the entire country. Yet nobody thinks twice if you go

2442
02:19:45,840 --> 02:19:48,840
Speaker 1: to Target and buy a bunch of stuff you probably

2443
02:19:48,879 --> 02:19:53,080
Speaker 1: don't need, which is destroying ecosystems or having this tremendous

2444
02:19:53,080 --> 02:19:58,119
Speaker 1: negative impact. We're very like I think we're just we're

2445
02:19:58,200 --> 02:20:01,200
Speaker 1: children in a lot of ways, like are and I

2446
02:20:01,640 --> 02:20:03,320
Speaker 1: was I always try to look at things like, hey,

2447
02:20:04,720 --> 02:20:06,200
Speaker 1: twenty years from now, what are we going to look

2448
02:20:06,240 --> 02:20:10,320
Speaker 1: back at and say, what the hell was happening over there? Right?

2449
02:20:10,840 --> 02:20:12,959
Speaker 1: You know? For now, I think it's like, prescription drugs

2450
02:20:13,080 --> 02:20:17,040
Speaker 1: is probably one of them. That's fast food is probably

2451
02:20:17,080 --> 02:20:18,920
Speaker 1: one of them. Twenty years from now that hopefully we'll

2452
02:20:18,959 --> 02:20:22,160
Speaker 1: be like, whoa boy, we were killing our folks with that, right,

2453
02:20:22,920 --> 02:20:25,480
Speaker 1: And in wildlife and hunting realms, there's there's you know,

2454
02:20:25,680 --> 02:20:27,400
Speaker 1: there's things we're doing right now twenty year from now

2455
02:20:27,400 --> 02:20:30,720
Speaker 1: we're gonna look back at and be like, wow, boy,

2456
02:20:30,840 --> 02:20:35,040
Speaker 1: gladly course corrected that one. But that's that's why I

2457
02:20:35,080 --> 02:20:38,000
Speaker 1: come back to course correction, because because then I think, okay, well,

2458
02:20:38,760 --> 02:20:41,360
Speaker 1: we're always going to be stupid now, like now, we're

2459
02:20:41,360 --> 02:20:43,760
Speaker 1: always stupid. But if we can if we can continue

2460
02:20:43,800 --> 02:20:46,600
Speaker 1: as as a species to correct the things we're doing

2461
02:20:46,640 --> 02:20:50,480
Speaker 1: now we shouldn't be, then we'll always at least be

2462
02:20:50,600 --> 02:20:53,600
Speaker 1: somewhat Okay. There's some irreparable things that we can't change,

2463
02:20:53,640 --> 02:20:59,760
Speaker 1: but the environment seems like that the rare occurrence where

2464
02:21:01,320 --> 02:21:03,039
Speaker 1: it is evident that the thing we're doing right now

2465
02:21:03,120 --> 02:21:07,720
Speaker 1: isn't right. You know, when that person was pregnant and

2466
02:21:07,800 --> 02:21:10,600
Speaker 1: smoking cigarettes. It took some time for babies to be

2467
02:21:10,720 --> 02:21:13,960
Speaker 1: born and for the cause and effect to happen. We

2468
02:21:14,160 --> 02:21:18,000
Speaker 1: are seeing the cause and effect in front of our faces.

2469
02:21:19,200 --> 02:21:25,080
Speaker 1: We don't have to study those fires. They're right there, like, okay,

2470
02:21:25,120 --> 02:21:28,560
Speaker 1: well there they are. Let's just keep doing what we're doing,

2471
02:21:29,120 --> 02:21:31,640
Speaker 1: and it will light on fire next year and eighty

2472
02:21:31,720 --> 02:21:34,480
Speaker 1: more people will die, thousands more people will die, and

2473
02:21:34,560 --> 02:21:37,520
Speaker 1: we'll just keep keep on going. Well, and I think

2474
02:21:37,680 --> 02:21:40,000
Speaker 1: you know one of the things, it's Alda Leopold, who

2475
02:21:40,000 --> 02:21:42,320
Speaker 1: we've talked about, the author of the Sand County Almanac.

2476
02:21:42,440 --> 02:21:44,800
Speaker 1: He said something in along the lines of the trouble

2477
02:21:44,879 --> 02:21:47,200
Speaker 1: with an environmental education, as you live alone in a

2478
02:21:47,240 --> 02:21:51,240
Speaker 1: world of wounds. And yes, that's true, and it's easy

2479
02:21:51,320 --> 02:21:54,320
Speaker 1: to get hung up on like the complexities or the

2480
02:21:54,600 --> 02:21:56,480
Speaker 1: things we could be doing better, or the lack of

2481
02:21:56,600 --> 02:21:58,880
Speaker 1: force that we have. But we also live in a

2482
02:21:58,959 --> 02:22:01,520
Speaker 1: time where information is now have been more readily available,

2483
02:22:02,000 --> 02:22:08,039
Speaker 1: where communication is is you know, broaching topics that are uncomfortable,

2484
02:22:08,200 --> 02:22:10,760
Speaker 1: and people are thinking outside of the box. You know,

2485
02:22:10,760 --> 02:22:12,360
Speaker 1: if you look at our midterm elections, a lot of

2486
02:22:12,440 --> 02:22:17,680
Speaker 1: first happened. There are incredible gains in the environmental kind

2487
02:22:17,720 --> 02:22:19,280
Speaker 1: of whatever you wanna call it movement. I mean the

2488
02:22:19,320 --> 02:22:21,640
Speaker 1: American Prayer Reserve. I was just learning about that. It's

2489
02:22:21,680 --> 02:22:25,200
Speaker 1: the biggest contiguous piece of protected short grass perry in

2490
02:22:25,240 --> 02:22:27,840
Speaker 1: the country. It's up near the Breakes and and here

2491
02:22:27,879 --> 02:22:31,520
Speaker 1: in Montana. I mean, amazing steps are being taken to

2492
02:22:31,720 --> 02:22:36,080
Speaker 1: address noise pollution in the ocean, marine debris in the ocean,

2493
02:22:36,680 --> 02:22:39,880
Speaker 1: the way that we manage wildlife here in North America.

2494
02:22:39,920 --> 02:22:44,080
Speaker 1: I mean there is a robust, healthy, active, energetic group

2495
02:22:44,120 --> 02:22:48,080
Speaker 1: of people joining b h A, getting involved in environmental issues,

2496
02:22:48,360 --> 02:22:49,960
Speaker 1: learning how to hunt. You know, I'm one of the

2497
02:22:50,080 --> 02:22:52,280
Speaker 1: editors at Modern Huntsmen. The number of people who hit

2498
02:22:52,360 --> 02:22:55,440
Speaker 1: us up, he say, I never thought I was gonna hunt,

2499
02:22:55,480 --> 02:22:58,520
Speaker 1: and I just harvarded harvested my first, dear doctor Turkey,

2500
02:22:58,920 --> 02:23:01,560
Speaker 1: and we're like, hey, yeah, regardless of who you voted

2501
02:23:01,600 --> 02:23:04,240
Speaker 1: for the fact that you're connecting with the land, developing

2502
02:23:04,280 --> 02:23:07,680
Speaker 1: this relationship, putting food on the table, understanding where meat

2503
02:23:07,720 --> 02:23:10,959
Speaker 1: comes from. I mean, that's inspiring and it's easy to get.

2504
02:23:11,920 --> 02:23:13,720
Speaker 1: You know, turn on the news and be like, holy shit,

2505
02:23:13,920 --> 02:23:16,440
Speaker 1: the world is messed up. Then you can pause and

2506
02:23:16,520 --> 02:23:19,200
Speaker 1: say it wasn't Raptor Center. They're doing an amazing words

2507
02:23:19,440 --> 02:23:21,800
Speaker 1: for sure, Yeah, I think. But even the push pool

2508
02:23:21,840 --> 02:23:24,840
Speaker 1: we're talking about, the push pool of should we shoot

2509
02:23:24,840 --> 02:23:27,000
Speaker 1: grizzy bears and should we not shoot you eil wars,

2510
02:23:27,080 --> 02:23:30,600
Speaker 1: that push pool is causing conversations like this one and

2511
02:23:30,680 --> 02:23:33,039
Speaker 1: a lot of conversations like this one about what's good

2512
02:23:33,120 --> 02:23:36,200
Speaker 1: for grizzly bears and that's good like that, you know,

2513
02:23:36,240 --> 02:23:38,520
Speaker 1: I think as humans were set up that way, you know,

2514
02:23:38,720 --> 02:23:43,600
Speaker 1: like grizzly bears hopefully be better off because of this

2515
02:23:43,720 --> 02:23:47,000
Speaker 1: debate because most, hopefully most everybody that's in it is

2516
02:23:47,080 --> 02:23:49,480
Speaker 1: thinking about what's best for grizzly bears, just happen to

2517
02:23:49,520 --> 02:23:53,680
Speaker 1: disagree about what to do. Um And like you said,

2518
02:23:53,680 --> 02:23:56,320
Speaker 1: a lot of it's disagreeing on the path to take

2519
02:23:56,400 --> 02:23:59,560
Speaker 1: to the same goal. And that's been my biggest one

2520
02:23:59,560 --> 02:24:02,440
Speaker 1: of the guesse things I've found over the last year

2521
02:24:02,560 --> 02:24:04,880
Speaker 1: or two, you know, really diving into the hunting industry

2522
02:24:04,879 --> 02:24:06,560
Speaker 1: and getting involved with b h A and then and

2523
02:24:06,640 --> 02:24:09,800
Speaker 1: trying to just like wrap my head around why I

2524
02:24:10,000 --> 02:24:13,240
Speaker 1: believe hunting is this medicine. It's like this this thing

2525
02:24:13,400 --> 02:24:15,240
Speaker 1: that we can all take to be a little bit

2526
02:24:15,320 --> 02:24:17,800
Speaker 1: better right, it has. It has a direct effect on

2527
02:24:17,879 --> 02:24:22,400
Speaker 1: our world, but everything does. And so living in that

2528
02:24:23,040 --> 02:24:28,440
Speaker 1: thought process, hunting is is this enriching pill you can

2529
02:24:28,520 --> 02:24:31,680
Speaker 1: take to bring you a little bit closer to the

2530
02:24:31,800 --> 02:24:35,560
Speaker 1: things you need to be close to nature. Animals are environment,

2531
02:24:36,360 --> 02:24:39,880
Speaker 1: your skills, all that ship and so that's at some

2532
02:24:40,000 --> 02:24:45,720
Speaker 1: point it's it's how do we go from a how

2533
02:24:45,760 --> 02:24:47,960
Speaker 1: do we go from a moment where we're standing back

2534
02:24:48,000 --> 02:24:51,360
Speaker 1: to back and we both agree with something, and we

2535
02:24:51,520 --> 02:24:53,120
Speaker 1: and then we start walking away from each other, and

2536
02:24:53,200 --> 02:24:55,400
Speaker 1: by the time we turn around to have the conversation,

2537
02:24:56,480 --> 02:24:58,640
Speaker 1: all we can do is argue. I was like, dude,

2538
02:24:59,080 --> 02:25:01,720
Speaker 1: everybody cares about wildlife. That's the reason our model, That's

2539
02:25:01,760 --> 02:25:04,199
Speaker 1: the one reason I believe our modelogue conservation works because

2540
02:25:04,280 --> 02:25:08,960
Speaker 1: everybody cares about wildlife. And I think it's I think

2541
02:25:09,040 --> 02:25:10,600
Speaker 1: you bring up a good point. And I also think

2542
02:25:10,640 --> 02:25:14,879
Speaker 1: that more people are stopping halfway and saying, wait a second,

2543
02:25:15,640 --> 02:25:17,280
Speaker 1: we actually have a lot more in common than you'd

2544
02:25:17,320 --> 02:25:20,360
Speaker 1: like to believe, or that the public is telling us.

2545
02:25:20,400 --> 02:25:24,840
Speaker 1: We do as you know, by on paper, I should

2546
02:25:24,840 --> 02:25:27,360
Speaker 1: be very different than you. But when we sit down,

2547
02:25:27,640 --> 02:25:30,080
Speaker 1: maybe we see things in different lights. But I think

2548
02:25:30,320 --> 02:25:32,840
Speaker 1: from an ideological perspective, we have a lot of the same.

2549
02:25:34,080 --> 02:25:36,560
Speaker 1: That really matters at the end of the day, because

2550
02:25:36,680 --> 02:25:39,160
Speaker 1: if if if you could agree, if if you and

2551
02:25:39,280 --> 02:25:43,360
Speaker 1: I could agree that we're not gonna be at the

2552
02:25:43,400 --> 02:25:45,920
Speaker 1: same spot on everything, but we're trying to get to

2553
02:25:45,959 --> 02:25:49,400
Speaker 1: the same goal, then every interaction we have is positive, right,

2554
02:25:49,720 --> 02:25:52,360
Speaker 1: even if we're yelling at each other. They were like, fucky,

2555
02:25:53,879 --> 02:25:59,400
Speaker 1: that's before the recordings. Yeah yeah, yeah, um yeah, even

2556
02:25:59,440 --> 02:26:03,080
Speaker 1: if we're are doing even if what we could say, hey, look,

2557
02:26:03,240 --> 02:26:07,879
Speaker 1: let's before we start. We want grizzly bears to be healthy, thrive,

2558
02:26:08,720 --> 02:26:11,080
Speaker 1: and to be doing their thing. Okay, good, great, great,

2559
02:26:11,160 --> 02:26:15,520
Speaker 1: let's go right, nothing you can do from that point forward,

2560
02:26:15,560 --> 02:26:19,320
Speaker 1: in my opinion, would would would be negative. And I

2561
02:26:19,360 --> 02:26:22,520
Speaker 1: think your point about like having space for discussion is huge,

2562
02:26:22,600 --> 02:26:25,120
Speaker 1: And that's you know, I'm doing some workover at SITCO

2563
02:26:25,240 --> 02:26:29,320
Speaker 1: next door, and we have this ecosystem thinking grant that

2564
02:26:29,440 --> 02:26:31,960
Speaker 1: we're putting together in all these different measures that I

2565
02:26:32,040 --> 02:26:34,000
Speaker 1: think some people would be surprised by. But it's like no, no, no,

2566
02:26:34,120 --> 02:26:36,360
Speaker 1: We're in the business of hunting, and we're in the

2567
02:26:36,360 --> 02:26:39,960
Speaker 1: business of the outdoors and the environment and those three

2568
02:26:40,080 --> 02:26:43,480
Speaker 1: things hinge upon the health of our ecosystems. So if

2569
02:26:43,520 --> 02:26:47,080
Speaker 1: we're not putting that ecosystem thinking hat on, then we're

2570
02:26:47,120 --> 02:26:51,080
Speaker 1: not doing the resources and these systems that we care

2571
02:26:51,120 --> 02:26:53,600
Speaker 1: about justice. And that's what you guys do so well

2572
02:26:53,640 --> 02:26:56,320
Speaker 1: over here is like, let's create a space for conversations

2573
02:26:56,680 --> 02:26:59,080
Speaker 1: that shanna light on what we can do better or

2574
02:26:59,160 --> 02:27:03,400
Speaker 1: what we're doing well that benefits the resources that we

2575
02:27:03,760 --> 02:27:06,400
Speaker 1: identify with. Yeah. I mean, I'm wearing a hoodie right

2576
02:27:06,400 --> 02:27:09,200
Speaker 1: now as this public landowner, like I'm into that. I

2577
02:27:09,280 --> 02:27:11,600
Speaker 1: want people to wear these shirts. It's over his ghostly

2578
02:27:11,600 --> 02:27:14,720
Speaker 1: bar t shirts. Yeah, well that's that's a tank top, sir,

2579
02:27:15,879 --> 02:27:21,320
Speaker 1: with sequences. Um, and now I'm thinking about me wearing

2580
02:27:21,320 --> 02:27:25,680
Speaker 1: a jazz tanks out. Thanks. Bro can make serious points

2581
02:27:26,160 --> 02:27:31,680
Speaker 1: that environment. But yeah, I think like this publicly and ownything.

2582
02:27:32,040 --> 02:27:36,280
Speaker 1: I always come back to that. I think, yes, I

2583
02:27:36,400 --> 02:27:40,160
Speaker 1: want public lands, Yes, of course I do. It's too

2584
02:27:40,240 --> 02:27:43,240
Speaker 1: easy to just want that. Is not that I just

2585
02:27:43,280 --> 02:27:47,520
Speaker 1: want public lands, is that I want healthy public lands

2586
02:27:47,520 --> 02:27:50,840
Speaker 1: that contribute to our world. I just don't want to

2587
02:27:50,879 --> 02:27:53,840
Speaker 1: be It's I'm not arguing for the right to go somewhere. Really,

2588
02:27:53,879 --> 02:27:56,080
Speaker 1: when I'm talking about public lands. I'm not arguing for

2589
02:27:56,200 --> 02:27:58,960
Speaker 1: the right to go on public lands. I want that.

2590
02:28:00,280 --> 02:28:03,280
Speaker 1: I'm arguing for the right to have them so we

2591
02:28:03,320 --> 02:28:06,000
Speaker 1: can keep them healthy and so they contribute to our world,

2592
02:28:06,560 --> 02:28:11,280
Speaker 1: like healthy habitat, healthy wildlife populations. That's what I'm at

2593
02:28:11,280 --> 02:28:13,520
Speaker 1: they're doing. I'm not saying I want it so I

2594
02:28:13,600 --> 02:28:15,200
Speaker 1: can do whatever I want on it. No, I'm saying

2595
02:28:15,240 --> 02:28:17,240
Speaker 1: I want it so we can make it better and

2596
02:28:17,360 --> 02:28:20,840
Speaker 1: make us all better. That's the point of wearing a

2597
02:28:20,879 --> 02:28:23,480
Speaker 1: shirt like this. And that's where I come back to, like,

2598
02:28:24,120 --> 02:28:26,520
Speaker 1: don't you get in this boat with me if you

2599
02:28:26,600 --> 02:28:29,040
Speaker 1: don't want that to if you just want public land

2600
02:28:29,120 --> 02:28:30,760
Speaker 1: so you can cut roads through them and ride around

2601
02:28:30,760 --> 02:28:32,640
Speaker 1: and shoot you off an a TV, like, that's not

2602
02:28:32,760 --> 02:28:35,320
Speaker 1: what I'm talking about. And what if somebody went up

2603
02:28:35,360 --> 02:28:38,120
Speaker 1: to you and said, you're a public landowner and I'm

2604
02:28:38,120 --> 02:28:39,760
Speaker 1: gonna tell you can't do what you want to do

2605
02:28:39,959 --> 02:28:42,960
Speaker 1: because of these three reasons. We can do that over there, fine.

2606
02:28:43,480 --> 02:28:45,880
Speaker 1: And I think that's a big thing too, because there

2607
02:28:46,000 --> 02:28:49,720
Speaker 1: are things that happen, you know, like you're into off

2608
02:28:49,840 --> 02:28:53,199
Speaker 1: roading and somebody says, well, that's critical habitat for this tortoise,

2609
02:28:53,760 --> 02:28:55,800
Speaker 1: and like well, screw the tortoise. I've never seen one.

2610
02:28:55,840 --> 02:28:57,680
Speaker 1: I drove my truck out there all the time. I think,

2611
02:28:57,720 --> 02:29:00,760
Speaker 1: you get up. People get hung up in these these

2612
02:29:01,080 --> 02:29:04,440
Speaker 1: purported threats on their ability to do what they want

2613
02:29:04,480 --> 02:29:07,680
Speaker 1: on public land. And the beautiful thing about public land

2614
02:29:07,720 --> 02:29:11,320
Speaker 1: is it's a collective resource. And if somebody is saying

2615
02:29:12,160 --> 02:29:13,960
Speaker 1: I get off cutting off you, you know, by cutting

2616
02:29:14,000 --> 02:29:16,720
Speaker 1: off huge cutting up huge trees, and somebody says, well,

2617
02:29:16,760 --> 02:29:19,400
Speaker 1: you can't do that. We have this beautiful suite of

2618
02:29:19,440 --> 02:29:21,200
Speaker 1: checks and balances. Were like, if you do want to

2619
02:29:21,240 --> 02:29:23,000
Speaker 1: go cut down trees, you can go to a beauticual

2620
02:29:23,040 --> 02:29:26,240
Speaker 1: force and cut down big trees. You can't do it here,

2621
02:29:27,000 --> 02:29:29,320
Speaker 1: you know. And I think that that that's another big thing.

2622
02:29:29,360 --> 02:29:31,160
Speaker 1: It's not a it's not a threat in your ability

2623
02:29:31,200 --> 02:29:33,800
Speaker 1: to be a public land owner. Public land is owned

2624
02:29:33,800 --> 02:29:37,160
Speaker 1: by the collective, which means everybody gets a vote. And

2625
02:29:37,200 --> 02:29:39,840
Speaker 1: there's a few people that say, are these votes done

2626
02:29:40,080 --> 02:29:43,200
Speaker 1: in a in a an appropriate way and are they

2627
02:29:43,280 --> 02:29:46,640
Speaker 1: being you know, used and leaned upon in an effective way?

2628
02:29:47,280 --> 02:29:49,280
Speaker 1: And and that's the beautiful thing, right that. Yeah, that

2629
02:29:49,360 --> 02:29:52,720
Speaker 1: that National Monument thing was a great example of that.

2630
02:29:53,320 --> 02:29:56,120
Speaker 1: Both sides got that's so wrong. That couldn't be It

2631
02:29:56,200 --> 02:29:58,720
Speaker 1: could be worse. One s I was like, well, we're

2632
02:29:58,800 --> 02:30:01,720
Speaker 1: protecting the land and the other side's like we're given

2633
02:30:01,760 --> 02:30:05,640
Speaker 1: access to the people. And wait, you're both kind of

2634
02:30:05,680 --> 02:30:09,039
Speaker 1: being assholes around this one. Because if we really wanted,

2635
02:30:09,080 --> 02:30:11,880
Speaker 1: like if we really broke it down, throw out the

2636
02:30:11,920 --> 02:30:16,800
Speaker 1: Antiquities Act, who cares it was past three? Write something new,

2637
02:30:18,000 --> 02:30:22,560
Speaker 1: Write something new that says protecting this ecosystem, the critical

2638
02:30:22,640 --> 02:30:26,600
Speaker 1: habitat um, the important artifacts that are there. Let's do

2639
02:30:26,760 --> 02:30:30,080
Speaker 1: that first, right, Okay, first, check that off. Got it.

2640
02:30:30,520 --> 02:30:33,160
Speaker 1: That's we can all agree we need those things. And

2641
02:30:33,200 --> 02:30:34,480
Speaker 1: even if you don't, if you don't agree that we

2642
02:30:34,520 --> 02:30:37,040
Speaker 1: need those things, I don't know what to do with you,

2643
02:30:38,040 --> 02:30:41,640
Speaker 1: Like go look at the fires or go like I

2644
02:30:41,680 --> 02:30:43,920
Speaker 1: just don't know what to do with you. Kindly leave.

2645
02:30:44,240 --> 02:30:46,879
Speaker 1: If you can't agree that we need habitat for animals

2646
02:30:47,240 --> 02:30:50,440
Speaker 1: and we need a healthy ecosystem, and if it's it's

2647
02:30:50,520 --> 02:30:54,520
Speaker 1: a historic artifact for human humankind or some some culture

2648
02:30:54,560 --> 02:30:57,640
Speaker 1: and we need to protect it, boy, we're gonna like

2649
02:30:58,040 --> 02:30:59,680
Speaker 1: you're just not going to be in this conversation. We

2650
02:30:59,760 --> 02:31:02,360
Speaker 1: need little sound design button with Will Ferrell. Same. Kindly leave,

2651
02:31:02,480 --> 02:31:06,160
Speaker 1: kindly leave. So let's say say like, let's let's say

2652
02:31:06,160 --> 02:31:07,680
Speaker 1: we're all still in the room when I say that

2653
02:31:07,800 --> 02:31:10,480
Speaker 1: to you. So, okay, good, we got that. What do

2654
02:31:10,560 --> 02:31:12,960
Speaker 1: we need to do to get to that? Okay, let's

2655
02:31:12,959 --> 02:31:15,160
Speaker 1: figure that out. That's not an easy one, but we'll

2656
02:31:15,200 --> 02:31:19,160
Speaker 1: figure that out next. We want we do not want

2657
02:31:20,560 --> 02:31:25,760
Speaker 1: to limit people's access to that area for any reasons

2658
02:31:25,800 --> 02:31:29,440
Speaker 1: other than the first check. Right, So we want roads cut,

2659
02:31:29,600 --> 02:31:32,880
Speaker 1: We want um places for people to go and view

2660
02:31:32,959 --> 02:31:38,000
Speaker 1: wildlife and and hike and hunt and uh perfect, great,

2661
02:31:38,560 --> 02:31:43,200
Speaker 1: that's second check. Like we keep inverting this ship all

2662
02:31:43,440 --> 02:31:46,720
Speaker 1: and mixing it all up and be like step one done,

2663
02:31:46,840 --> 02:31:51,120
Speaker 1: Step two done. Everybody happy, Great, go see you like,

2664
02:31:51,440 --> 02:31:53,480
Speaker 1: go out and run around. We don't care. But but

2665
02:31:53,640 --> 02:31:56,880
Speaker 1: you can't. You can't do like the most important thing

2666
02:31:57,400 --> 02:31:59,600
Speaker 1: and the second most important thing have to stay one

2667
02:31:59,680 --> 02:32:02,720
Speaker 1: and two because if you start flipping around, then they

2668
02:32:02,720 --> 02:32:05,039
Speaker 1: start to hurt each other. Right, it's like uranium mind check,

2669
02:32:05,520 --> 02:32:09,240
Speaker 1: ecosystem check. Yeah, they don't know. The second goes first,

2670
02:32:11,360 --> 02:32:13,720
Speaker 1: like is that uranium? Like, okay, do we have a

2671
02:32:13,800 --> 02:32:16,840
Speaker 1: healthy ecosystem? How do we define that? Like that's a

2672
02:32:16,920 --> 02:32:20,680
Speaker 1: really tough one. But then once that's done, then you

2673
02:32:20,760 --> 02:32:22,600
Speaker 1: can have your fucking ranium on all you want. I

2674
02:32:22,760 --> 02:32:26,000
Speaker 1: love Uranie's one of my favorite so one of my activities.

2675
02:32:26,920 --> 02:32:29,520
Speaker 1: I've been minding uranium since I was a kid. But

2676
02:32:30,200 --> 02:32:33,560
Speaker 1: it's like, there has to be a better way to

2677
02:32:33,720 --> 02:32:38,920
Speaker 1: set those checks and balances because we certainly I haven't

2678
02:32:39,080 --> 02:32:42,240
Speaker 1: strived to do that. We've strived to to be right.

2679
02:32:42,600 --> 02:32:45,640
Speaker 1: You know when one of the like the precedents that

2680
02:32:46,000 --> 02:32:48,879
Speaker 1: really explains what we're talking about here was back during

2681
02:32:48,879 --> 02:32:53,960
Speaker 1: the gold rush time, back before we had conflicting uh

2682
02:32:54,680 --> 02:32:58,120
Speaker 1: you know groups where it was miners against ranchers or

2683
02:32:58,280 --> 02:33:02,200
Speaker 1: farmers against loggers, there was a river system in California

2684
02:33:02,280 --> 02:33:07,560
Speaker 1: where gold mining was being done in such a blindly

2685
02:33:08,200 --> 02:33:11,959
Speaker 1: horrific way, a destructive way. Setent was filling up these

2686
02:33:12,040 --> 02:33:16,280
Speaker 1: rivers and coming down stream and destroying crop lands and

2687
02:33:16,320 --> 02:33:19,440
Speaker 1: along the way, making these huge levees that flooded these

2688
02:33:19,480 --> 02:33:21,760
Speaker 1: mining towns. So that burst and flood these mining towns.

2689
02:33:22,200 --> 02:33:24,119
Speaker 1: And that was the first time in our country's history

2690
02:33:24,200 --> 02:33:26,520
Speaker 1: where that I know of, I know it was a

2691
02:33:26,600 --> 02:33:28,560
Speaker 1: it was a kind of a landmark case in California

2692
02:33:28,959 --> 02:33:32,160
Speaker 1: where the government was tasked was saying, okay, well, if

2693
02:33:32,720 --> 02:33:34,840
Speaker 1: this group of people is looking at this landscape as

2694
02:33:34,879 --> 02:33:38,200
Speaker 1: a resource for trees or gold, and this group of

2695
02:33:38,240 --> 02:33:41,200
Speaker 1: people looking at this landscape as a resource for crops,

2696
02:33:41,640 --> 02:33:43,080
Speaker 1: and these people in the middle are just trying to

2697
02:33:43,160 --> 02:33:45,920
Speaker 1: live there, but they're caught in the crossfire, how do

2698
02:33:46,120 --> 02:33:50,800
Speaker 1: we manage with all constituents in mind. It's a challenging thing,

2699
02:33:50,879 --> 02:33:53,160
Speaker 1: right because you look at bears ears and it's it's

2700
02:33:53,800 --> 02:33:56,240
Speaker 1: it's a it's a homeland of people who were here

2701
02:33:56,320 --> 02:33:58,240
Speaker 1: long before us, who got short end of the stick.

2702
02:33:58,640 --> 02:34:03,040
Speaker 1: It's an ecosystem that's the Danes, wildlife, plants, and animals.

2703
02:34:03,720 --> 02:34:06,640
Speaker 1: It's a resource that private enterprise would love to mind

2704
02:34:06,720 --> 02:34:10,720
Speaker 1: and extract, and it's just a place the hike for others.

2705
02:34:11,320 --> 02:34:13,680
Speaker 1: And I think your point is brilliant because we've got

2706
02:34:13,760 --> 02:34:16,240
Speaker 1: to say, like, what is the most important thing here,

2707
02:34:16,280 --> 02:34:19,640
Speaker 1: and that is a functioning, healthy ecosystem that provides cleanary,

2708
02:34:19,680 --> 02:34:23,160
Speaker 1: clean water, and everything else a secondary or tertiary. And

2709
02:34:23,240 --> 02:34:25,760
Speaker 1: it's okay to have secondary tertiary things that are also

2710
02:34:25,840 --> 02:34:29,800
Speaker 1: important in that. I don't hate roads because I hate

2711
02:34:29,800 --> 02:34:32,480
Speaker 1: when people arguing like a wilderness is the only way. No,

2712
02:34:32,840 --> 02:34:36,879
Speaker 1: it's not the only way. Roads through through public playing areas,

2713
02:34:36,959 --> 02:34:40,040
Speaker 1: roads through wilderness. Boy, I'm fine with it. You can

2714
02:34:40,080 --> 02:34:44,680
Speaker 1: take your Segway on them. I love my Segway drove

2715
02:34:44,720 --> 02:34:51,320
Speaker 1: off a cliff um. But yeah, I mean, I think

2716
02:34:52,080 --> 02:34:56,320
Speaker 1: I think the priority is where I find the most problem.

2717
02:34:57,160 --> 02:34:59,800
Speaker 1: And that's what I love. You know about the hunting thing, because,

2718
02:35:00,280 --> 02:35:02,800
Speaker 1: honest to God, ten years ago, if somebody had said

2719
02:35:02,840 --> 02:35:05,240
Speaker 1: you're gonna be in the hunting space, you're gonna be

2720
02:35:05,320 --> 02:35:08,320
Speaker 1: working with brands you know that identifies hunting brands. You're

2721
02:35:08,320 --> 02:35:10,200
Speaker 1: gonna be working with people and friends with people who

2722
02:35:10,240 --> 02:35:13,200
Speaker 1: are hunters. Grow having grown up hunting. My dad was

2723
02:35:13,240 --> 02:35:14,640
Speaker 1: on the board of California. Try to grew up in

2724
02:35:14,680 --> 02:35:20,600
Speaker 1: a sportsman's house. But there's something awesome about this space

2725
02:35:20,680 --> 02:35:24,960
Speaker 1: hunting and fishing because by default, you give a ship

2726
02:35:25,040 --> 02:35:28,119
Speaker 1: about animals, and you give a shit about the systems

2727
02:35:28,160 --> 02:35:30,160
Speaker 1: that support you know, you can't help it, you can't

2728
02:35:30,200 --> 02:35:36,119
Speaker 1: help it. Without those you're identifying, interest doesn't exist hunting

2729
02:35:36,200 --> 02:35:38,920
Speaker 1: or fishing. And it's kind of like being an ecologist

2730
02:35:39,000 --> 02:35:42,879
Speaker 1: with like a potential and little cherry on top, which

2731
02:35:42,920 --> 02:35:44,920
Speaker 1: could be your deer or your duck or your trout.

2732
02:35:45,440 --> 02:35:48,000
Speaker 1: And I love that and it it's it's awesome because

2733
02:35:48,040 --> 02:35:51,320
Speaker 1: it gives us common ground to work from where we

2734
02:35:51,400 --> 02:35:53,480
Speaker 1: can say you and I both want to kill deer,

2735
02:35:53,920 --> 02:35:55,520
Speaker 1: but at the end of the day, we need to

2736
02:35:55,560 --> 02:35:57,000
Speaker 1: focus on how to get to that place where we

2737
02:35:57,040 --> 02:36:00,160
Speaker 1: have dear to kill or dear to watch, because we

2738
02:36:00,240 --> 02:36:01,440
Speaker 1: both know we spent a lot of time in a

2739
02:36:01,480 --> 02:36:03,840
Speaker 1: tree or out in the woods watching animals and not

2740
02:36:03,959 --> 02:36:06,560
Speaker 1: ever fire narrow a bullet. Yeah, well, I think like

2741
02:36:06,680 --> 02:36:09,760
Speaker 1: the one of the one of the things I want

2742
02:36:09,800 --> 02:36:11,720
Speaker 1: to have a segment about this. It's called like what bothers?

2743
02:36:12,040 --> 02:36:14,760
Speaker 1: What's bothering me? Like maybe I have like a little

2744
02:36:14,920 --> 02:36:18,000
Speaker 1: like what's grinding my gear? Is really like that, But

2745
02:36:18,440 --> 02:36:20,000
Speaker 1: one of the things that bothers me is around what

2746
02:36:20,080 --> 02:36:22,440
Speaker 1: you just said. Right. So our value stem and hunting

2747
02:36:22,520 --> 02:36:26,560
Speaker 1: is is it's rhetorical in nature in a lot of ways,

2748
02:36:26,600 --> 02:36:30,119
Speaker 1: but it's it's very valuable. Like it it helps the things,

2749
02:36:31,680 --> 02:36:33,920
Speaker 1: the animals that are involved in that value system. Like

2750
02:36:34,040 --> 02:36:38,720
Speaker 1: it's it's clear that the value hunting provides helps animals

2751
02:36:39,440 --> 02:36:44,400
Speaker 1: almost always in in the umbrella sense of a population.

2752
02:36:44,480 --> 02:36:46,120
Speaker 1: It may not help that single animal, I guess got

2753
02:36:46,200 --> 02:36:49,640
Speaker 1: shot and eaten, but it helps the greater whole. And

2754
02:36:49,720 --> 02:36:51,440
Speaker 1: I think that's you know, as a human, that's kind

2755
02:36:51,480 --> 02:36:54,320
Speaker 1: of what I'm into. Okay, well it might it might

2756
02:36:54,400 --> 02:36:57,400
Speaker 1: not help me today, but does it help us always?

2757
02:36:58,000 --> 02:37:01,520
Speaker 1: So that's good. So one of things that bothers me is,

2758
02:37:01,920 --> 02:37:05,680
Speaker 1: let's talk about this in a podcast previous with Bryan Callahan,

2759
02:37:07,000 --> 02:37:10,720
Speaker 1: is that like the outfitting industry, and I would say,

2760
02:37:10,920 --> 02:37:13,320
Speaker 1: you know, groups like I'll call him out by name,

2761
02:37:13,360 --> 02:37:17,080
Speaker 1: fuck it s C, I's Far Club International. I got

2762
02:37:17,160 --> 02:37:21,680
Speaker 1: problem with you guys. Okay, I think our value system

2763
02:37:22,680 --> 02:37:25,760
Speaker 1: is infallible. I believe that to be true, but I

2764
02:37:25,840 --> 02:37:29,000
Speaker 1: believe it's being hijacked by people that are just using

2765
02:37:29,080 --> 02:37:32,720
Speaker 1: it as an excuse to do what they want. And

2766
02:37:32,840 --> 02:37:36,480
Speaker 1: that bothers me. I think it's being hijacked by outfitters

2767
02:37:36,520 --> 02:37:39,000
Speaker 1: that are making money from people that are using it.

2768
02:37:39,800 --> 02:37:43,039
Speaker 1: And the users are the clients that are traveling across

2769
02:37:43,080 --> 02:37:46,080
Speaker 1: the world, are traveling across this country and using that

2770
02:37:46,200 --> 02:37:48,800
Speaker 1: value systems excuse to do things they ought not to

2771
02:37:48,879 --> 02:37:54,960
Speaker 1: be doing, or or using it as reasoning that they

2772
02:37:54,959 --> 02:37:59,359
Speaker 1: don't truly believe. And I, you know, I will say, honestly,

2773
02:37:59,440 --> 02:38:03,440
Speaker 1: I have thought some days, you know, before I was able,

2774
02:38:03,640 --> 02:38:05,880
Speaker 1: probably before I had a podcast, and this is one

2775
02:38:05,920 --> 02:38:07,840
Speaker 1: of the reasons I have a podcast, is because I

2776
02:38:07,920 --> 02:38:12,520
Speaker 1: got so dejected by that and so pissed by that

2777
02:38:14,360 --> 02:38:17,279
Speaker 1: that I thought, you know, maybe I'm just gonna stop hunting,

2778
02:38:19,560 --> 02:38:21,640
Speaker 1: you know, And then pretty quickly I'm like, no, no, no,

2779
02:38:21,840 --> 02:38:24,879
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna let it. That's crazy talk. This sake

2780
02:38:25,000 --> 02:38:28,600
Speaker 1: is delicious. But yeah, but but I think, like I've

2781
02:38:28,640 --> 02:38:31,400
Speaker 1: had those moments where it's like me, this is exhausting,

2782
02:38:32,080 --> 02:38:35,560
Speaker 1: Like here's here's something I know to be, you know,

2783
02:38:35,800 --> 02:38:38,000
Speaker 1: as infallible as it can be, as something can get

2784
02:38:38,360 --> 02:38:43,000
Speaker 1: that's this broad being used by people that don't believe

2785
02:38:43,400 --> 02:38:46,760
Speaker 1: in it and caring is exhausting. Yeah, like you pointed out,

2786
02:38:46,840 --> 02:38:49,800
Speaker 1: it's easy to be on one end of the spectrum.

2787
02:38:50,440 --> 02:38:53,440
Speaker 1: It's easy to look at the media of those people

2788
02:38:53,600 --> 02:38:55,960
Speaker 1: who are doing things they ought not to be doing

2789
02:38:56,879 --> 02:39:01,160
Speaker 1: and taking that as a wholesale representation of the of

2790
02:39:01,280 --> 02:39:05,160
Speaker 1: the greater population or the greater community. Yeah, go go

2791
02:39:05,440 --> 02:39:10,280
Speaker 1: to Yeah, I'm it's not my nature to call people out,

2792
02:39:10,320 --> 02:39:12,600
Speaker 1: but go to this far Clip International Convention. I've been

2793
02:39:12,640 --> 02:39:14,640
Speaker 1: there for the last five years and there's a lot

2794
02:39:14,680 --> 02:39:17,720
Speaker 1: of really good stuff happening there. I mean lots of

2795
02:39:17,879 --> 02:39:20,560
Speaker 1: really good lots of money going and conservation. I mean

2796
02:39:20,720 --> 02:39:23,840
Speaker 1: just just a lot of immense and wonderful things happening there.

2797
02:39:24,200 --> 02:39:28,880
Speaker 1: But there is also there's an example. There was a

2798
02:39:28,920 --> 02:39:33,959
Speaker 1: booth at across from the booth I was at last year,

2799
02:39:34,120 --> 02:39:37,400
Speaker 1: and that booth had a sign this is an out

2800
02:39:37,480 --> 02:39:39,800
Speaker 1: there I believe in South Africa, not the matters where

2801
02:39:39,800 --> 02:39:43,160
Speaker 1: they're coming from. And it was like one of those

2802
02:39:43,240 --> 02:39:45,800
Speaker 1: signs you might see out in front of bail bonds

2803
02:39:47,120 --> 02:39:49,480
Speaker 1: place or maybe like get your money today type of

2804
02:39:51,120 --> 02:39:55,199
Speaker 1: cash or paychecks. It was like, I just want everybody

2805
02:39:55,240 --> 02:39:56,840
Speaker 1: to just think about what this sign looks like. It

2806
02:39:56,920 --> 02:39:59,680
Speaker 1: was it had like a gray background, but it had

2807
02:40:00,000 --> 02:40:03,080
Speaker 1: florescent lights blinking all around the outside and on the

2808
02:40:03,160 --> 02:40:08,800
Speaker 1: inside they had written in fluorescent pink and yellow, ah,

2809
02:40:09,879 --> 02:40:14,280
Speaker 1: come for an elephant, fifteen thousand dollars get a free impaula.

2810
02:40:17,120 --> 02:40:18,640
Speaker 1: And I had to spend the whole week looking at

2811
02:40:18,680 --> 02:40:21,120
Speaker 1: that sign, and that sign got like burned into my

2812
02:40:21,200 --> 02:40:26,040
Speaker 1: retinas to the point where I was like, is this person, wait,

2813
02:40:26,760 --> 02:40:31,160
Speaker 1: is this person selling an animal? Like It's like first

2814
02:40:31,200 --> 02:40:35,200
Speaker 1: I thought maybe everybody got a Chevy impaula, which was

2815
02:40:35,480 --> 02:40:36,879
Speaker 1: what I thought how are you going to get those

2816
02:40:36,879 --> 02:40:39,280
Speaker 1: cars back to America? And you're thinking I would like

2817
02:40:39,360 --> 02:40:41,320
Speaker 1: to Chevy. I was like, I would maybe go an

2818
02:40:41,400 --> 02:40:43,440
Speaker 1: elephant hunt because that's almost like a deal because Chevy

2819
02:40:43,480 --> 02:40:46,720
Speaker 1: and Polos are worth more than fift k leather seats?

2820
02:40:46,800 --> 02:40:49,200
Speaker 1: How do I get it back to America? But then

2821
02:40:49,280 --> 02:40:53,560
Speaker 1: I was like, these people, I'm making an assumption here,

2822
02:40:54,080 --> 02:40:58,360
Speaker 1: but it's an educated one that the people that were

2823
02:40:58,440 --> 02:41:00,120
Speaker 1: running that booth. If they were pulled out of that

2824
02:41:00,240 --> 02:41:03,320
Speaker 1: scenario and somebody ran up to him, we're like, why

2825
02:41:03,360 --> 02:41:04,880
Speaker 1: do you do what you do? You shouldn't be killing

2826
02:41:04,920 --> 02:41:07,920
Speaker 1: those impolos and selling them like they're you know, cars,

2827
02:41:08,160 --> 02:41:10,880
Speaker 1: use cars. That person would be like, well, let me

2828
02:41:10,920 --> 02:41:15,880
Speaker 1: tell you about the value system of hunting, because now

2829
02:41:15,920 --> 02:41:21,000
Speaker 1: I don't have this sign right next to me. Let

2830
02:41:21,040 --> 02:41:22,480
Speaker 1: me tell you about the value system. Let me tell

2831
02:41:22,480 --> 02:41:25,240
Speaker 1: you why this allows her to be more of these animals.

2832
02:41:26,560 --> 02:41:31,080
Speaker 1: And that's where I'm like, boy, I can't get with that.

2833
02:41:31,959 --> 02:41:37,320
Speaker 1: I can't get with it. That's I'm sorry, but don't

2834
02:41:37,440 --> 02:41:39,960
Speaker 1: use don't use this wonderful thing that we've got to

2835
02:41:40,200 --> 02:41:43,320
Speaker 1: excuse your selling an ampollo like it's you know, a

2836
02:41:43,440 --> 02:41:47,920
Speaker 1: gift bag, just don't do it. And I think that's

2837
02:41:49,120 --> 02:41:52,520
Speaker 1: you know, that's a representation of those outliers. That's a

2838
02:41:52,560 --> 02:41:57,520
Speaker 1: representation of people who were not hunting with ant we're

2839
02:41:57,520 --> 02:42:00,480
Speaker 1: not inviting to Thanksgiving dinner. Yeah, but you you'll see

2840
02:42:00,560 --> 02:42:03,000
Speaker 1: like all of these and I'm sure you've lost all that.

2841
02:42:03,040 --> 02:42:05,000
Speaker 1: I can't think of the exact names of the documentaries,

2842
02:42:05,040 --> 02:42:08,720
Speaker 1: but normally, as an anti hunting documentary on killing rhinos,

2843
02:42:08,959 --> 02:42:11,760
Speaker 1: some British dude goes to Sei and walks around like,

2844
02:42:12,080 --> 02:42:14,520
Speaker 1: hell and look at this hand and there's like just

2845
02:42:14,760 --> 02:42:19,000
Speaker 1: some you know, like yeah, yeah, Trophy, there's the perfect example.

2846
02:42:19,160 --> 02:42:21,480
Speaker 1: And they walk around there like this is something like

2847
02:42:21,640 --> 02:42:26,120
Speaker 1: Alien World where a bunch of people, um go up

2848
02:42:26,160 --> 02:42:28,160
Speaker 1: to a booth and say, oh, that's a giant animal.

2849
02:42:28,240 --> 02:42:31,680
Speaker 1: Maybe I'll want to pay fifty, yeah, or ninety or

2850
02:42:32,400 --> 02:42:37,879
Speaker 1: or whatever, and then that British dude um in trophy.

2851
02:42:38,920 --> 02:42:42,120
Speaker 1: I think those it was a couple I believe, eventually

2852
02:42:42,160 --> 02:42:43,880
Speaker 1: said like, hey, we get now that we were over

2853
02:42:43,920 --> 02:42:45,680
Speaker 1: there and we did it, we get what hunting brings

2854
02:42:45,720 --> 02:42:48,480
Speaker 1: to the table. But but what they never did get,

2855
02:42:48,840 --> 02:42:51,440
Speaker 1: in my opinion from watching the film, is how you

2856
02:42:51,520 --> 02:42:54,640
Speaker 1: could go to a place like that and connect that

2857
02:42:54,760 --> 02:42:58,360
Speaker 1: with the value system on the ground in Africa or

2858
02:42:58,480 --> 02:43:01,800
Speaker 1: on the ground in America, like that that thing didn't

2859
02:43:01,840 --> 02:43:06,160
Speaker 1: represent the good totally. And I also think Africa's a

2860
02:43:06,160 --> 02:43:08,200
Speaker 1: slippery slope. You know, it's something that we get talked to,

2861
02:43:08,360 --> 02:43:10,800
Speaker 1: you know, their topics that arise with the modern huntsman.

2862
02:43:11,200 --> 02:43:13,400
Speaker 1: And I when people say Africa, I'm like, hey, um,

2863
02:43:13,680 --> 02:43:15,320
Speaker 1: I'll be in the other room me too, you know,

2864
02:43:15,560 --> 02:43:17,280
Speaker 1: like it's not something I'm familiar with. I'm not an

2865
02:43:17,320 --> 02:43:20,000
Speaker 1: expert in it. It's too it's complicated. That's why it's

2866
02:43:20,120 --> 02:43:23,160
Speaker 1: easy for to be called out totally. And I think

2867
02:43:24,640 --> 02:43:30,120
Speaker 1: the representative narrative in hunting in America in November is

2868
02:43:30,160 --> 02:43:33,360
Speaker 1: white tail honey, which is very different than shooting an elephant.

2869
02:43:33,640 --> 02:43:36,880
Speaker 1: And if people watched me in my backyard hunting my

2870
02:43:36,959 --> 02:43:39,520
Speaker 1: white tailed dough, which I was super fired up on

2871
02:43:39,560 --> 02:43:42,000
Speaker 1: because it's going to be great food, and I sat

2872
02:43:42,160 --> 02:43:44,960
Speaker 1: for days and days and days and picked right one

2873
02:43:45,000 --> 02:43:46,880
Speaker 1: and felt like that was a choice and an animal

2874
02:43:47,000 --> 02:43:50,920
Speaker 1: at harvest personally, regardless of what other people would say,

2875
02:43:51,240 --> 02:43:53,680
Speaker 1: I felt good about that. And that's what a lot

2876
02:43:53,680 --> 02:43:56,879
Speaker 1: of people are dealing with. People are putting themselves outside

2877
02:43:57,320 --> 02:44:00,440
Speaker 1: and making a conscious decision to harvest to particular animal

2878
02:44:00,879 --> 02:44:04,040
Speaker 1: for reasons that are probably pretty darn good, you know.

2879
02:44:04,280 --> 02:44:07,360
Speaker 1: And it's not I'm here's eight grand. It's not a

2880
02:44:07,760 --> 02:44:12,880
Speaker 1: let me play games with a relatively stable, developing country

2881
02:44:12,959 --> 02:44:15,840
Speaker 1: and in a continant and nothing about. It's a I'm

2882
02:44:15,840 --> 02:44:18,879
Speaker 1: gonna go in my backyard or to next day over,

2883
02:44:19,360 --> 02:44:22,720
Speaker 1: meet up with some guys who are probably even keeled

2884
02:44:23,040 --> 02:44:26,000
Speaker 1: and harvest an animal that there's an abundance of. And

2885
02:44:26,200 --> 02:44:29,640
Speaker 1: that's representative hunting in America November. But that's not what

2886
02:44:29,800 --> 02:44:32,920
Speaker 1: people in Portland, San Francisco, or people watching Trophy are scene.

2887
02:44:33,520 --> 02:44:36,640
Speaker 1: They're not being presented that purposefully because it's easy. But

2888
02:44:36,760 --> 02:44:39,400
Speaker 1: it's also real. It's not fake, it's not being made up.

2889
02:44:40,560 --> 02:44:42,960
Speaker 1: And so for me, it's like, yeah, here's here's these

2890
02:44:43,040 --> 02:44:48,000
Speaker 1: two very different and it spins right back to grizzly bears. Man,

2891
02:44:48,160 --> 02:44:50,920
Speaker 1: it spins right back to them, because like I said,

2892
02:44:50,959 --> 02:44:57,000
Speaker 1: I don't, I don't uh I would shoot a grizzly bear.

2893
02:44:57,160 --> 02:44:59,840
Speaker 1: I'm not saying I wouldn't, but I don't. As I

2894
02:45:00,000 --> 02:45:01,600
Speaker 1: sit in this chair field the need to do it

2895
02:45:02,879 --> 02:45:07,240
Speaker 1: um and if I met someone who truly believed that

2896
02:45:07,640 --> 02:45:09,760
Speaker 1: it was their duty as a hunter to take part

2897
02:45:09,840 --> 02:45:14,600
Speaker 1: in the system of conservation, whereas they went out and

2898
02:45:14,720 --> 02:45:16,879
Speaker 1: had a great experience that enrisk their lives and they

2899
02:45:16,959 --> 02:45:19,720
Speaker 1: killed a grizzly bear. And I'm with that all day long.

2900
02:45:20,640 --> 02:45:24,560
Speaker 1: But what I'm not with there's somebody who wants to

2901
02:45:25,720 --> 02:45:28,280
Speaker 1: wants it for other reasons that we could we listen

2902
02:45:28,320 --> 02:45:29,960
Speaker 1: all days. It's not no need to hammer on that.

2903
02:45:30,120 --> 02:45:32,760
Speaker 1: But I'm not with that. We're just not with it.

2904
02:45:34,320 --> 02:45:37,760
Speaker 1: And so I hope generationally we can start to clearly

2905
02:45:37,840 --> 02:45:39,680
Speaker 1: define what that is and when it's not. And I

2906
02:45:39,760 --> 02:45:43,080
Speaker 1: think that's I think if we do that, then, um,

2907
02:45:44,320 --> 02:45:47,160
Speaker 1: anybody that's an animal rights activist or an anti hunter

2908
02:45:47,240 --> 02:45:51,040
Speaker 1: will lose the ability to to change the rules based

2909
02:45:51,120 --> 02:45:54,640
Speaker 1: on that, because they certainly didn't. British Columbia, you know,

2910
02:45:54,879 --> 02:45:57,800
Speaker 1: they changed the rules. They tried, they changed the rules

2911
02:45:57,840 --> 02:45:59,640
Speaker 1: because they knew they were people out there that were

2912
02:45:59,640 --> 02:46:05,000
Speaker 1: shooting the bears just to shoot the bears. Which sucks. Boy,

2913
02:46:05,080 --> 02:46:09,640
Speaker 1: that sucks for the bears and for everyone. Um, but

2914
02:46:09,800 --> 02:46:12,840
Speaker 1: they weren't wrong. There were people out there shooting the

2915
02:46:12,879 --> 02:46:14,920
Speaker 1: bears just to shoot the bears. And it's like we

2916
02:46:15,000 --> 02:46:19,640
Speaker 1: talked about you know, if if the hunting community didn't,

2917
02:46:21,800 --> 02:46:26,560
Speaker 1: I think so aggressively published photos that were less than

2918
02:46:26,640 --> 02:46:31,600
Speaker 1: thoughtful on the internet, representing our community industry at large,

2919
02:46:32,440 --> 02:46:36,880
Speaker 1: we'd have a better time. And if the alternative was

2920
02:46:37,320 --> 02:46:40,200
Speaker 1: that thoughtful image of the dinner you're prepared or the

2921
02:46:40,320 --> 02:46:43,240
Speaker 1: experience that you were after, because we all know that

2922
02:46:43,440 --> 02:46:46,960
Speaker 1: hunting is not about killing something every day, because one

2923
02:46:47,040 --> 02:46:52,480
Speaker 1: that's not possible, not legal, and not realistic. You know,

2924
02:46:52,760 --> 02:46:56,120
Speaker 1: like the narrative that that the public would then be

2925
02:46:57,160 --> 02:47:01,560
Speaker 1: presented with is the one of drinking coffee, the drive,

2926
02:47:01,680 --> 02:47:05,360
Speaker 1: the flight, the adventure of the food, the camaraderie, the sunrise,

2927
02:47:05,400 --> 02:47:07,880
Speaker 1: the sunset, all the cool ship you see. You know,

2928
02:47:08,160 --> 02:47:10,160
Speaker 1: that's when we get out and hunt. You know. It's

2929
02:47:10,200 --> 02:47:12,760
Speaker 1: like I harvested my dough, and yes, it was an

2930
02:47:12,760 --> 02:47:15,080
Speaker 1: awesome experience sitting in my tree for all those days.

2931
02:47:15,600 --> 02:47:18,040
Speaker 1: But I brought some of that meat to my father

2932
02:47:18,120 --> 02:47:21,040
Speaker 1: in law's birthday and I was like, here's some meat

2933
02:47:21,200 --> 02:47:23,320
Speaker 1: that I worked my ass off for and I'm going

2934
02:47:23,360 --> 02:47:25,080
Speaker 1: to cook at the best I can, even I suck

2935
02:47:25,120 --> 02:47:27,720
Speaker 1: a cooking. My wife's gonna help me, and we're gonna

2936
02:47:27,720 --> 02:47:29,280
Speaker 1: serve this up. And I'm gonna be proud and know

2937
02:47:29,480 --> 02:47:32,960
Speaker 1: that that was a sustainable, awesome contribution to our dinner.

2938
02:47:33,480 --> 02:47:37,480
Speaker 1: I felt freaking good boy. And I think in general

2939
02:47:37,720 --> 02:47:41,320
Speaker 1: nobody disagrees with that. I think if you were pull

2940
02:47:41,360 --> 02:47:45,400
Speaker 1: the country, you get about a nine to five. And

2941
02:47:45,440 --> 02:47:47,840
Speaker 1: I wish that was the ship that ends up in

2942
02:47:47,879 --> 02:47:51,680
Speaker 1: the headlines where it was like like pseudo hippie hunter

2943
02:47:51,800 --> 02:47:54,160
Speaker 1: trails post harvest's dough and feeds it to his father

2944
02:47:54,240 --> 02:47:56,880
Speaker 1: in law, Like that should be the Actually, yeah, I

2945
02:47:56,920 --> 02:47:58,720
Speaker 1: think like they like we can all go back to

2946
02:47:58,840 --> 02:48:01,120
Speaker 1: like all these I think the hunting industry. What's funny

2947
02:48:01,680 --> 02:48:04,400
Speaker 1: that I've realized this is the last couple of controversies

2948
02:48:04,480 --> 02:48:08,040
Speaker 1: around air quotes, around you know, people shooting animals in

2949
02:48:08,120 --> 02:48:12,160
Speaker 1: different places, and the guy that shot the baboons or

2950
02:48:12,200 --> 02:48:14,640
Speaker 1: the young lady in Scotland that shot the feral goats.

2951
02:48:17,200 --> 02:48:20,119
Speaker 1: I think hunting is just over that, Like the hunting

2952
02:48:20,120 --> 02:48:23,360
Speaker 1: community is over over that conversation. And and hopefully it's

2953
02:48:23,400 --> 02:48:26,920
Speaker 1: because we know that's just it's not worth our time.

2954
02:48:27,360 --> 02:48:29,760
Speaker 1: When we see that stuff and we're like that's freaking crazy,

2955
02:48:30,080 --> 02:48:31,840
Speaker 1: like I want to have done that. We and when

2956
02:48:31,920 --> 02:48:33,840
Speaker 1: we disagree with it, and so it ends up being

2957
02:48:33,920 --> 02:48:36,240
Speaker 1: this like Ricky Gervais and the celebrity crew that's out

2958
02:48:36,280 --> 02:48:39,120
Speaker 1: there trying to find examples of bad hunters, and and

2959
02:48:39,879 --> 02:48:43,959
Speaker 1: they're I mean those people traffic in publicity. The people

2960
02:48:45,000 --> 02:48:47,320
Speaker 1: a lot of people that don't agree with hunting traffic

2961
02:48:47,560 --> 02:48:52,840
Speaker 1: in messaging, marketing and publicity and so and a lot

2962
02:48:52,840 --> 02:48:55,680
Speaker 1: of them are celebrities, are big followings. So when that

2963
02:48:55,840 --> 02:48:58,000
Speaker 1: when somebody like Ricky Gervais or who did he just

2964
02:48:58,160 --> 02:49:02,320
Speaker 1: person comes to mind, grabs a photo sometimes from like

2965
02:49:02,520 --> 02:49:07,199
Speaker 1: years ago and says, oh, this fits my agenda, puts

2966
02:49:07,240 --> 02:49:11,480
Speaker 1: it up there like what's in the media takes it on,

2967
02:49:11,800 --> 02:49:15,119
Speaker 1: which they always do. The guy the shot at Baboos

2968
02:49:15,200 --> 02:49:19,520
Speaker 1: is on Good Morning America. He wasn't but a story one.

2969
02:49:21,040 --> 02:49:24,400
Speaker 1: It's like, what's like, do we spend our time fighting

2970
02:49:24,520 --> 02:49:26,120
Speaker 1: this is I don't know the answer to this, it's

2971
02:49:26,280 --> 02:49:29,400
Speaker 1: fighting that bullshit or do we spend our time doing

2972
02:49:29,480 --> 02:49:31,360
Speaker 1: what you were talking about and just doing it right,

2973
02:49:31,879 --> 02:49:37,760
Speaker 1: talking about it consistently and ignoring Ricky Gervais and his crew.

2974
02:49:38,360 --> 02:49:44,200
Speaker 1: I mean, I think my experience hunting that dough and

2975
02:49:44,600 --> 02:49:49,560
Speaker 1: that narrative being communicated to my community will do more too.

2976
02:49:50,920 --> 02:49:55,120
Speaker 1: Two bring support and interest to the hunting space from

2977
02:49:55,200 --> 02:50:02,160
Speaker 1: non hunters. Then the the one bad story a here.

2978
02:50:02,200 --> 02:50:04,400
Speaker 1: If we all find our good story and pass it

2979
02:50:04,480 --> 02:50:07,520
Speaker 1: off to our community and remind the people who were

2980
02:50:07,600 --> 02:50:10,720
Speaker 1: connected with Hey, this is the most beautiful thing. I

2981
02:50:10,800 --> 02:50:12,920
Speaker 1: got to go, have this experience, share this thing with

2982
02:50:13,040 --> 02:50:15,920
Speaker 1: you have this, you know, food to put on the plate.

2983
02:50:16,480 --> 02:50:19,680
Speaker 1: If we can propagate that as our currency, we will

2984
02:50:19,760 --> 02:50:24,640
Speaker 1: outshine that little bit of noise that the far other

2985
02:50:24,720 --> 02:50:27,600
Speaker 1: side of the spectrum likes to just re you know position.

2986
02:50:28,240 --> 02:50:30,320
Speaker 1: I think they've already found themselves in an echo chamber

2987
02:50:30,360 --> 02:50:32,440
Speaker 1: in that way totally. I mean, at that point, it's

2988
02:50:32,480 --> 02:50:35,040
Speaker 1: like people that hate hunting see that and like this

2989
02:50:35,200 --> 02:50:37,840
Speaker 1: is confirmation that it's gnarly. But I think the rest

2990
02:50:37,920 --> 02:50:41,400
Speaker 1: of the middle ground of America, Okay, maybe he shouldn't

2991
02:50:41,400 --> 02:50:43,840
Speaker 1: have shut that giraffe. I can agree with that, But

2992
02:50:44,000 --> 02:50:46,600
Speaker 1: that's the all the deeper it goes. It doesn't go

2993
02:50:46,800 --> 02:50:49,720
Speaker 1: much deeper than the right um and even this conversation

2994
02:50:49,760 --> 02:50:52,600
Speaker 1: around being able to call out like, hey, you know,

2995
02:50:54,520 --> 02:51:01,000
Speaker 1: there's I can see holistically, holistic, good and virtuous reasons

2996
02:51:01,040 --> 02:51:03,400
Speaker 1: to shoot that graffe. I'm getting. I'm with that. I

2997
02:51:03,440 --> 02:51:08,960
Speaker 1: can have that conversation. Um, but I would hope as

2998
02:51:09,040 --> 02:51:13,360
Speaker 1: time marches forward, just like just like what we were

2999
02:51:13,400 --> 02:51:18,600
Speaker 1: talking about with smoking while you're pregnant, that rich globe

3000
02:51:18,640 --> 02:51:23,320
Speaker 1: trotting hunters shooting things for what's on their head is

3001
02:51:23,800 --> 02:51:27,280
Speaker 1: something that we can treat like smoking while pregnant. Just

3002
02:51:27,480 --> 02:51:30,280
Speaker 1: be like, look, I know the money is important. I'm

3003
02:51:30,360 --> 02:51:33,320
Speaker 1: with you, I want and I know the concessions in

3004
02:51:33,400 --> 02:51:37,720
Speaker 1: Africa have done wonders for wildlife. I am with you,

3005
02:51:38,080 --> 02:51:41,800
Speaker 1: can can and yeah, there's plenty of evidence that you

3006
02:51:41,840 --> 02:51:44,400
Speaker 1: can spit off. You can spit off what in how

3007
02:51:44,440 --> 02:51:48,240
Speaker 1: many African analope antalope species were in Africa and what

3008
02:51:48,320 --> 02:51:50,960
Speaker 1: were the populations and do it now and you'd say, Okay,

3009
02:51:51,080 --> 02:51:54,320
Speaker 1: that's amazing. That seems to be working. So I'm with

3010
02:51:54,480 --> 02:51:56,920
Speaker 1: that conversation. I don't have any problem with that. But

3011
02:51:57,040 --> 02:52:00,680
Speaker 1: I think it's it's the I think we're already starting

3012
02:52:00,760 --> 02:52:03,840
Speaker 1: to as a honey community. Just move away from that

3013
02:52:03,879 --> 02:52:10,000
Speaker 1: a little bit. Because when um Blake Fisher goes to

3014
02:52:10,080 --> 02:52:14,640
Speaker 1: African and shoots his baboons, I had all my non

3015
02:52:14,720 --> 02:52:17,920
Speaker 1: hunting friends, all my people in my life that aren't

3016
02:52:17,920 --> 02:52:20,440
Speaker 1: a part of the industry calling me that day, what's

3017
02:52:20,440 --> 02:52:22,360
Speaker 1: about this? What you know about this? What do you

3018
02:52:22,440 --> 02:52:25,879
Speaker 1: know about this? What's going on with this? I think

3019
02:52:25,959 --> 02:52:27,400
Speaker 1: most of my hunting friends are like, I didn't even

3020
02:52:27,440 --> 02:52:32,240
Speaker 1: know that happened. So it used to be like when

3021
02:52:32,320 --> 02:52:34,560
Speaker 1: cease a lion would happen or something something like that

3022
02:52:34,600 --> 02:52:36,240
Speaker 1: would happen, that we would be immediately on it and

3023
02:52:36,320 --> 02:52:38,360
Speaker 1: defending it and defending it and defending it and saying

3024
02:52:38,360 --> 02:52:41,879
Speaker 1: all I was degraded it. Now it's kind of like heah,

3025
02:52:41,879 --> 02:52:44,240
Speaker 1: you go for it. Yeah, what have you gotta do? Right? Well,

3026
02:52:44,360 --> 02:52:46,000
Speaker 1: if you know, if we're looking at the hunting, the

3027
02:52:46,080 --> 02:52:49,519
Speaker 1: future of hunting, we can be getting more people outside

3028
02:52:49,879 --> 02:52:55,200
Speaker 1: because that breeds stewardship, that breeds people who care, and

3029
02:52:55,280 --> 02:52:58,520
Speaker 1: that breeds just more voices from diverse backgrounds that can

3030
02:52:58,760 --> 02:53:02,720
Speaker 1: add to the broader effort to protect our wild spaces,

3031
02:53:02,760 --> 02:53:05,360
Speaker 1: wildlife in public lands. And the end of the day,

3032
02:53:05,959 --> 02:53:09,800
Speaker 1: that Good Morning America story is not getting new hunters

3033
02:53:09,840 --> 02:53:12,800
Speaker 1: in the door listening to this podcast or walking over

3034
02:53:12,800 --> 02:53:14,199
Speaker 1: there to said to go to buy a new vest.

3035
02:53:14,920 --> 02:53:17,000
Speaker 1: At the end of the day, what's getting people outside

3036
02:53:17,240 --> 02:53:21,240
Speaker 1: is saying, hey, look, we're normal people trying our best,

3037
02:53:21,560 --> 02:53:24,720
Speaker 1: working hard, trying to raise a family. We enjoy hiking.

3038
02:53:25,080 --> 02:53:28,000
Speaker 1: We probably bike or snowboard. I surf. I also hunt.

3039
02:53:28,480 --> 02:53:31,400
Speaker 1: I eat plants, ate some meat too. That meat that

3040
02:53:31,480 --> 02:53:34,280
Speaker 1: I eat I like to get myself. It's generally a dough.

3041
02:53:34,520 --> 02:53:37,920
Speaker 1: It's generally a buck. It's generally an elk that's three out,

3042
02:53:38,120 --> 02:53:40,840
Speaker 1: like you saw like a normal person. Right, Does that

3043
02:53:40,920 --> 02:53:43,200
Speaker 1: make hunting normal if you're doing it totally? And then

3044
02:53:43,240 --> 02:53:45,680
Speaker 1: they're like sweet? So I can just take a hunter's

3045
02:53:46,120 --> 02:53:49,720
Speaker 1: d course. I can go buy an entry point bow

3046
02:53:49,959 --> 02:53:53,160
Speaker 1: or rifle or shotgun, get a friend going to public land,

3047
02:53:53,240 --> 02:53:55,480
Speaker 1: give it a shot. Maybe get a duck, Maybe get

3048
02:53:55,520 --> 02:53:57,240
Speaker 1: a deer, not a big deal. Doesn't need to be

3049
02:53:57,280 --> 02:54:00,120
Speaker 1: a bood and Crockett. It can be a deer, you know.

3050
02:54:00,240 --> 02:54:02,880
Speaker 1: And I think the industry and the community at large

3051
02:54:02,959 --> 02:54:06,200
Speaker 1: needs to remind people that, like, that's what's up. And

3052
02:54:06,280 --> 02:54:08,240
Speaker 1: it's about taking your kid out to do that. It's

3053
02:54:08,240 --> 02:54:10,000
Speaker 1: about taking your friends out to do that. It's about

3054
02:54:10,040 --> 02:54:13,280
Speaker 1: saying I'm not like I have a job. I don't

3055
02:54:13,320 --> 02:54:16,160
Speaker 1: get paid to hunt. Yes, I like hunting, but it's

3056
02:54:16,200 --> 02:54:19,400
Speaker 1: like an escape, it's a release, it's an activity. I

3057
02:54:19,480 --> 02:54:23,080
Speaker 1: also USA have a vegetable garden. I also used to surf.

3058
02:54:23,320 --> 02:54:25,480
Speaker 1: I do all these other things. I do the dishes

3059
02:54:26,240 --> 02:54:29,600
Speaker 1: you know I do, and I enjoy listen your podcast,

3060
02:54:29,760 --> 02:54:33,040
Speaker 1: I'm doing it. Don't tell my wife, you'll expect me

3061
02:54:33,160 --> 02:54:35,400
Speaker 1: to do. But you know what I'm saying, It's not

3062
02:54:35,600 --> 02:54:39,400
Speaker 1: this like we're not flying around on jets, smoking drafts

3063
02:54:39,480 --> 02:54:42,040
Speaker 1: with like high powered rifles and like putting the trophies

3064
02:54:42,080 --> 02:54:44,440
Speaker 1: in our huge halls like you said. I mean that

3065
02:54:44,640 --> 02:54:47,240
Speaker 1: that when that when that can be identified as an outlier,

3066
02:54:47,320 --> 02:54:49,160
Speaker 1: which I believe it is. I mean the numbers say

3067
02:54:49,160 --> 02:54:52,600
Speaker 1: it is. You know, how many people hunt deer, white

3068
02:54:52,640 --> 02:54:55,560
Speaker 1: tailed deer in America versus how many people go to Africa.

3069
02:54:55,920 --> 02:54:59,959
Speaker 1: I mean it's like ten thousand millions, ten thousand, ten millions,

3070
02:55:00,240 --> 02:55:05,760
Speaker 1: right number. Um, So again, like if somebody's seeming to me,

3071
02:55:05,840 --> 02:55:07,680
Speaker 1: like you know, so I was thinking about so, well

3072
02:55:07,720 --> 02:55:10,000
Speaker 1: with ten thousand and ten million, that does that that

3073
02:55:10,120 --> 02:55:12,720
Speaker 1: work for you? Right? There's ten thousand people and ten

3074
02:55:12,800 --> 02:55:16,720
Speaker 1: million people. Can we have that conversation now like yeah,

3075
02:55:16,879 --> 02:55:19,640
Speaker 1: maybe that guy shouldn't have done that, but yeah, so

3076
02:55:19,680 --> 02:55:23,040
Speaker 1: I think that ends up being I've had that just

3077
02:55:23,240 --> 02:55:27,360
Speaker 1: just a recent kind of reality, Like I don't really

3078
02:55:27,400 --> 02:55:30,200
Speaker 1: need to talk to anybody about that got killing the monkeys,

3079
02:55:30,240 --> 02:55:33,920
Speaker 1: because he'll get land based and he'll get what was

3080
02:55:34,000 --> 02:55:35,920
Speaker 1: coming to him for something he probably shouldn't have done.

3081
02:55:35,959 --> 02:55:38,400
Speaker 1: And that's just noise. Life will go on and the

3082
02:55:38,520 --> 02:55:40,960
Speaker 1: noise will go and he'll probably his life will go

3083
02:55:41,040 --> 02:55:43,160
Speaker 1: on too, and he'll have learned a lesson to not

3084
02:55:43,320 --> 02:55:46,560
Speaker 1: do that, you know. And it's like you eat you

3085
02:55:46,680 --> 02:55:49,480
Speaker 1: eat plants with your meat, right generally, I really do. Yeah,

3086
02:55:49,680 --> 02:55:52,480
Speaker 1: you know, he's like, you have to remind people that

3087
02:55:52,959 --> 02:55:55,280
Speaker 1: we're not just like cutting a backstread out. He's just

3088
02:55:56,920 --> 02:55:59,160
Speaker 1: you go on Instagram, you just see like meat. There's

3089
02:55:59,200 --> 02:56:04,680
Speaker 1: never any other gonna be like just me like, but

3090
02:56:04,800 --> 02:56:06,960
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, I'm excited to look at you know,

3091
02:56:07,000 --> 02:56:11,320
Speaker 1: Steve bron Nell's cookbook because those recipes I assume have

3092
02:56:12,040 --> 02:56:20,039
Speaker 1: plants as components in them, maybe small fun factory pages asparagus.

3093
02:56:20,160 --> 02:56:26,640
Speaker 1: It exists. Increasing I love it. Well, good man, we've

3094
02:56:26,680 --> 02:56:31,000
Speaker 1: been talking for how long almost three hours as a

3095
02:56:31,040 --> 02:56:36,600
Speaker 1: full roguan podcast. That's good man, it's fun. I um,

3096
02:56:38,320 --> 02:56:40,720
Speaker 1: That's why I appreciate. I just appreciate a good conversation.

3097
02:56:40,760 --> 02:56:43,119
Speaker 1: That's why I like podcasting because it's good, too good

3098
02:56:43,160 --> 02:56:45,400
Speaker 1: to rip it up. Well, that's awesome, because I think

3099
02:56:45,800 --> 02:56:48,560
Speaker 1: while we talked for a while and we cover some topics,

3100
02:56:48,959 --> 02:56:50,720
Speaker 1: I think what they all boil down to is this

3101
02:56:50,840 --> 02:56:57,800
Speaker 1: idea that wildlife management is complicated, policy is imperfect. People

3102
02:56:57,840 --> 02:57:02,760
Speaker 1: are trying their hardest, we should assume, and I think

3103
02:57:02,840 --> 02:57:04,959
Speaker 1: that that's something that you'll find in a lot of people.

3104
02:57:04,959 --> 02:57:07,720
Speaker 1: They're really putting their best foot forward most days. And

3105
02:57:07,760 --> 02:57:11,240
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, most people aren't freaking crazy.

3106
02:57:11,640 --> 02:57:13,240
Speaker 1: Most people are just trying to get after it and

3107
02:57:13,360 --> 02:57:15,200
Speaker 1: do the best they can. And and yeah, and then

3108
02:57:15,280 --> 02:57:18,240
Speaker 1: don't dig in too hard. If you have a position,

3109
02:57:18,800 --> 02:57:21,400
Speaker 1: dig in if you think it's right. I'm all for that.

3110
02:57:21,520 --> 02:57:24,119
Speaker 1: I do that all the time. Don't take in too far.

3111
02:57:24,840 --> 02:57:28,360
Speaker 1: To be a little bit flexible and have an understanding

3112
02:57:28,440 --> 02:57:30,800
Speaker 1: that of what the other person you're talking to or

3113
02:57:30,840 --> 02:57:32,840
Speaker 1: you're disagreeing with, wants to do, and if you want

3114
02:57:32,879 --> 02:57:34,920
Speaker 1: to both do the same thing, then be a little

3115
02:57:34,920 --> 02:57:38,480
Speaker 1: bit more flexible. Even then. I think that's something that's

3116
02:57:38,480 --> 02:57:41,560
Speaker 1: helped me and hopefully that can help other people, especially

3117
02:57:41,600 --> 02:57:44,080
Speaker 1: when it comes to things like grizzly bears or any

3118
02:57:44,120 --> 02:57:48,320
Speaker 1: hot topics around wildlife management just just don't dig in

3119
02:57:48,440 --> 02:57:51,320
Speaker 1: too damn far, and that you can't get yourself out

3120
02:57:51,720 --> 02:57:56,000
Speaker 1: and there's more to know always um, But yeah, I

3121
02:57:56,040 --> 02:57:59,760
Speaker 1: know we will see. I mean, I think I think

3122
02:58:00,120 --> 02:58:01,400
Speaker 1: we might have to have you write a grizzly bear

3123
02:58:01,520 --> 02:58:04,520
Speaker 1: piece for the Mediator dot com. Well after reading this

3124
02:58:05,600 --> 02:58:09,640
Speaker 1: court decision for five times, been writing a bunch already. Yeah. No,

3125
02:58:09,760 --> 02:58:11,320
Speaker 1: it's it's fun to be a part of the conversation.

3126
02:58:11,720 --> 02:58:13,600
Speaker 1: I hope people out there who are listening, you know,

3127
02:58:13,720 --> 02:58:17,520
Speaker 1: and enjoy our perspective. And you know, while we may

3128
02:58:17,600 --> 02:58:20,039
Speaker 1: seem like we can't land on an answer, I think

3129
02:58:20,120 --> 02:58:22,520
Speaker 1: that's just us trying to give it our best go.

3130
02:58:22,959 --> 02:58:25,760
Speaker 1: You know, it's complicated, Yeah, I mean fecundities, but I

3131
02:58:25,800 --> 02:58:29,360
Speaker 1: always say no, I mean, yeah, that's a good point.

3132
02:58:29,879 --> 02:58:32,200
Speaker 1: But at the same time, it's just a conversation that

3133
02:58:33,600 --> 02:58:36,720
Speaker 1: this podcast is not is not designed to be the answer.

3134
02:58:37,640 --> 02:58:40,240
Speaker 1: It's not because it will never be. It's designed to

3135
02:58:40,280 --> 02:58:43,720
Speaker 1: be the conversation. And so hopefully you guys listening come

3136
02:58:43,760 --> 02:58:45,720
Speaker 1: with that. And if if Charles or I ever in

3137
02:58:45,760 --> 02:58:49,000
Speaker 1: the public eye or on this podcast or any future media,

3138
02:58:49,560 --> 02:58:51,760
Speaker 1: um say anything that's typic retal to what we said today,

3139
02:58:52,000 --> 02:58:54,240
Speaker 1: and we don't try to strive to be educated and

3140
02:58:54,360 --> 02:58:59,840
Speaker 1: be centric in our thinking and strife healthy ecosystems first,

3141
02:59:00,920 --> 02:59:04,560
Speaker 1: then let us know absolutely because because it's easy to talk,

3142
02:59:04,680 --> 02:59:07,800
Speaker 1: but it's a lot harder to walk. So hopefully we'll

3143
02:59:07,840 --> 02:59:10,240
Speaker 1: do that and continue to Yeah, thanks for having me.

3144
02:59:10,320 --> 02:59:14,640
Speaker 1: It's second third one we've done. You've been on This

3145
02:59:14,680 --> 02:59:16,879
Speaker 1: would be like thirty, this will be in the mid thirties.

3146
02:59:16,879 --> 02:59:20,400
Speaker 1: You've been on roughly, like, I don't know what I'm

3147
02:59:20,400 --> 02:59:22,280
Speaker 1: trying to do. The percentage in my head roughly ten

3148
02:59:22,720 --> 02:59:31,720
Speaker 1: of my podcast. You're like, yes, but it's I really

3149
02:59:31,800 --> 02:59:33,640
Speaker 1: enjoy these conversations and I hope you have to do

3150
02:59:33,720 --> 02:59:35,640
Speaker 1: more of them. And like I said, it's something that

3151
02:59:35,760 --> 02:59:38,480
Speaker 1: I makes my day better because it's it's better than

3152
02:59:38,560 --> 02:59:42,720
Speaker 1: just washing TV. You're running errands or doing anything. Well,

3153
02:59:42,720 --> 02:59:44,760
Speaker 1: you can keep calling him, just don't FaceTime yet. Midnight

3154
02:59:44,920 --> 02:59:47,480
Speaker 1: every like every night I'm like, Charles, guess what I

3155
02:59:47,520 --> 02:59:52,480
Speaker 1: found the Andy go bud. But also to close it out,

3156
02:59:52,520 --> 02:59:54,600
Speaker 1: you did get a sticker there. You're the first one ever.

3157
02:59:54,879 --> 02:59:58,440
Speaker 1: I'll be getting a hammerd pretty hard by people around

3158
02:59:58,520 --> 03:00:01,280
Speaker 1: like not having any like what do they call that? Paraphernalia. No,

3159
03:00:01,360 --> 03:00:06,280
Speaker 1: it's not it swag. It's not paraphernalia. That's illegal. Yeah. Um,

3160
03:00:07,640 --> 03:00:09,800
Speaker 1: so yeah, there's a sticker. You're the first person ever

3161
03:00:09,879 --> 03:00:14,480
Speaker 1: to receive the Hunting Collective podcast sticker. It's pretty slick. Yeah,

3162
03:00:14,560 --> 03:00:21,640
Speaker 1: it's made of biodegradable plastics. Um. But we also have

3163
03:00:21,760 --> 03:00:24,000
Speaker 1: some other stuff coming out. So what do you have? Oh,

3164
03:00:24,120 --> 03:00:28,000
Speaker 1: we got hats, you know, I get that next time. Yeah,

3165
03:00:28,440 --> 03:00:30,600
Speaker 1: something to look forward to, something look forward to. No,

3166
03:00:30,680 --> 03:00:32,920
Speaker 1: I have. This is the investment I'm willing to get

3167
03:00:33,600 --> 03:00:38,600
Speaker 1: at this point. This is a sticker. Okay, Yeah, all right,

3168
03:00:38,680 --> 03:00:43,640
Speaker 1: thanks brother, awesome, Thanks so much. That's it. That's all.

3169
03:00:44,879 --> 03:00:48,400
Speaker 1: Thanks to Mr Charles Post for joining me for the

3170
03:00:48,560 --> 03:00:52,240
Speaker 1: longest podcast and the history of the Hunting Collective that

3171
03:00:52,280 --> 03:00:55,840
Speaker 1: goes all the way back to February. But this is

3172
03:00:55,879 --> 03:00:59,840
Speaker 1: a great one. Um. I'm just just proud to know

3173
03:01:00,240 --> 03:01:03,040
Speaker 1: to know Charles and proud to have access to his

3174
03:01:03,200 --> 03:01:07,040
Speaker 1: knowledge and and as uh folks who are relatively the

3175
03:01:07,120 --> 03:01:09,920
Speaker 1: same age like it. It would be great too to

3176
03:01:10,120 --> 03:01:12,880
Speaker 1: go through this journey of hunting and life, you know,

3177
03:01:13,640 --> 03:01:17,600
Speaker 1: with Charles nearby to hang out with us. So thank you, Charles.

3178
03:01:17,840 --> 03:01:22,480
Speaker 1: Hopefully everybody enjoyed those three hours. What else have we got?

3179
03:01:22,560 --> 03:01:25,640
Speaker 1: We got We have the mediator dot com as always,

3180
03:01:25,840 --> 03:01:27,240
Speaker 1: that's the place to go if you want to find

3181
03:01:27,320 --> 03:01:31,440
Speaker 1: honey collective stuff, all the good stuff, all the podcasts,

3182
03:01:31,480 --> 03:01:35,120
Speaker 1: all the things articles. Anything I do is going to

3183
03:01:35,240 --> 03:01:39,120
Speaker 1: live there. So go there and see what's up. And

3184
03:01:39,200 --> 03:01:40,960
Speaker 1: if you could do me a huge favor and sign

3185
03:01:41,080 --> 03:01:45,440
Speaker 1: up for the newsletter. It's so on every page it

3186
03:01:45,480 --> 03:01:46,880
Speaker 1: says a little thing up in the right corner that

3187
03:01:46,920 --> 03:01:48,200
Speaker 1: says sign up for the news letter. If you go

3188
03:01:48,400 --> 03:01:51,240
Speaker 1: do that and sign up, you're gonna get every hunting

3189
03:01:51,240 --> 03:01:55,680
Speaker 1: collected podcast, every article UM by folks like Steve Ronella,

3190
03:01:56,240 --> 03:02:01,840
Speaker 1: April Fokey, Mark Kenyan and so much more. And you'll

3191
03:02:01,879 --> 03:02:04,119
Speaker 1: be able to track our company, Media Incorporated as it grows.

3192
03:02:05,240 --> 03:02:08,520
Speaker 1: And I do want to say before we go, you've

3193
03:02:08,560 --> 03:02:10,400
Speaker 1: been listening for a while now, so just hang with me.

3194
03:02:12,120 --> 03:02:16,960
Speaker 1: Thank you to everyone for the encouragement around Media or Incorporated. UM.

3195
03:02:17,080 --> 03:02:20,480
Speaker 1: It's been a while now since we announced the company,

3196
03:02:21,440 --> 03:02:26,520
Speaker 1: and it has been really awesome to see the support

3197
03:02:26,720 --> 03:02:29,600
Speaker 1: for what I'm trying to do, even though if what

3198
03:02:29,720 --> 03:02:32,320
Speaker 1: we're trying to do is a bit of a mystery

3199
03:02:34,520 --> 03:02:39,280
Speaker 1: on a tangible level. It's it just enforces to me

3200
03:02:39,440 --> 03:02:42,160
Speaker 1: that being in the hunting community and being part of

3201
03:02:42,200 --> 03:02:45,920
Speaker 1: this thing is was the right thing for my career,

3202
03:02:46,080 --> 03:02:48,200
Speaker 1: my life, and for my family, for my friends to

3203
03:02:49,320 --> 03:02:53,520
Speaker 1: all be in some way a part of this granted conversation.

3204
03:02:53,600 --> 03:02:56,200
Speaker 1: So thank you very much. I very much appreciate that,

3205
03:02:57,440 --> 03:03:01,440
Speaker 1: and we're going to continue to work hard to better

3206
03:03:02,080 --> 03:03:07,320
Speaker 1: this conversation. And so that is it for Honty Collective

3207
03:03:07,360 --> 03:03:11,880
Speaker 1: this week. Join us next Tuesday morning forget another awesome

3208
03:03:12,000 --> 03:03:19,000
Speaker 1: guest as we round out and look forward to all right,

3209
03:03:19,560 --> 03:03:19,959
Speaker 1: bye bye,