1 00:00:02,440 --> 00:00:08,520 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. It may not have 2 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:11,640 Speaker 1: the cachet of gold and silver, but a less shiny, 3 00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:15,200 Speaker 1: though perhaps even more important metal is the focus of 4 00:00:15,280 --> 00:00:18,680 Speaker 1: many mining companies across Central and Southern Africa. 5 00:00:19,280 --> 00:00:23,439 Speaker 2: By twenty forty, an additional nine million tons of copper 6 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:26,920 Speaker 2: will be required each year to keep pace with the 7 00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:32,400 Speaker 2: global demand. Zambia recognizes our crucial role emitting this demand 8 00:00:32,440 --> 00:00:35,800 Speaker 2: to power this new green African future. 9 00:00:36,680 --> 00:00:39,199 Speaker 1: This will shape the future of our world as we 10 00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:43,280 Speaker 1: drive towards electrification to protect our planet, and Zambia is 11 00:00:43,320 --> 00:00:45,520 Speaker 1: a major driver of this global goal. 12 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:49,360 Speaker 3: It is the most compelling a trade I have ever 13 00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:52,720 Speaker 3: seen in my thirty plus years of doing this. 14 00:00:53,240 --> 00:00:55,840 Speaker 4: You know, it's the highest conviction trade they've ever seen. 15 00:00:56,760 --> 00:01:00,680 Speaker 1: Today we'll hear why Zambia is betting big on copper 16 00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:05,080 Speaker 1: and how the DRC has become the second largest producer 17 00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:11,840 Speaker 1: in the world. I'm Jennifer's Abasaga and this is the 18 00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:16,000 Speaker 1: Next Africa podcast, bringing you one story each week from 19 00:01:16,040 --> 00:01:19,240 Speaker 1: the continent driving the future of global growth with the 20 00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:27,959 Speaker 1: context only Bloomberg can provide. We may think of copper 21 00:01:28,040 --> 00:01:31,080 Speaker 1: as the metal in our pipes, or even some of 22 00:01:31,120 --> 00:01:35,240 Speaker 1: our smaller coins, but its use in electrical components is 23 00:01:35,319 --> 00:01:38,839 Speaker 1: making it crucial as the world transitions to green energy. 24 00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:43,080 Speaker 1: In a moment, will head to the Democratic Republic of Congo, 25 00:01:43,640 --> 00:01:46,920 Speaker 1: the second largest producer of the metal in the world. 26 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:52,240 Speaker 1: But first let's focus in on Zambia. The country has 27 00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:56,000 Speaker 1: recently announced a new mine which could become the third 28 00:01:56,160 --> 00:01:59,640 Speaker 1: largest copper mine in the world, and that's just the 29 00:01:59,680 --> 00:02:03,880 Speaker 1: star of their ambitions. Bloomberg's reporter Matthew Hill has been 30 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:07,560 Speaker 1: following the country's copper plans for quite a while, and 31 00:02:07,600 --> 00:02:08,800 Speaker 1: he's joining us now. 32 00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:11,919 Speaker 3: Hi, Jen, thanks very much for having me on How 33 00:02:11,919 --> 00:02:13,280 Speaker 3: you doing good Good? 34 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:16,519 Speaker 1: This is a great topic and a very timely topic 35 00:02:16,600 --> 00:02:20,639 Speaker 1: for a lot of reasons. You've covered the mining industry 36 00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:23,560 Speaker 1: across Zambia for quite a while, but we're going to 37 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:28,360 Speaker 1: focus in on copper today because copper is really the 38 00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:31,000 Speaker 1: hot topic, the hot metal. It seems like that that 39 00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:34,920 Speaker 1: many people are focused on right now, not just in Africa, 40 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:41,040 Speaker 1: but also internationally. When did it become the metal of concern? 41 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:47,280 Speaker 3: Certainly when it's price shut up above ten thousand dollars 42 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:50,720 Speaker 3: a ton this year, a lot more people started paying 43 00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:53,640 Speaker 3: attention to it. Over the past few months, there's been 44 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:56,200 Speaker 3: a flood of investor money coming into copper. 45 00:02:56,560 --> 00:02:59,920 Speaker 1: It's it can trade whatever investors think it's worth. 46 00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:03,800 Speaker 5: There's very it's very an elastic on the demand and 47 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:04,919 Speaker 5: supply side to price. 48 00:03:05,320 --> 00:03:07,800 Speaker 3: But already over the past couple of years, there's been 49 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:11,480 Speaker 3: a growing consensus that for the will to get anywhere 50 00:03:11,480 --> 00:03:16,760 Speaker 3: close to meeting our emissions reductions targets, we're going to 51 00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:21,360 Speaker 3: need a lot more copper. It's the medal of electrification 52 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:26,320 Speaker 3: and goes into everything from evs to wind turbines and 53 00:03:26,919 --> 00:03:31,800 Speaker 3: power transmission networks. That's the demand side, but on the 54 00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:36,640 Speaker 3: supply side, experts see it's becoming increasingly difficult to build 55 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:37,880 Speaker 3: new copper minds. 56 00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:41,520 Speaker 1: Earlier, we played this clip from Jeff Curry, who's a 57 00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:45,080 Speaker 1: veteran copper ball He was on our Odd Lots podcast. 58 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:50,600 Speaker 1: Is the excitement shared from governments from public sector across 59 00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:51,240 Speaker 1: the continent. 60 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:56,880 Speaker 3: Certainly at least to some extent, When the world's biggest 61 00:03:56,920 --> 00:04:01,600 Speaker 3: mining company, that's PHP, tried to buy its rival Anglo 62 00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:06,040 Speaker 3: American for forty nine billion dollars this year, it wasn't 63 00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:09,680 Speaker 3: the fable the beer's diamond mining business. It was after 64 00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:13,800 Speaker 3: it was Anglo's copper mines that were the main price. 65 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:19,000 Speaker 3: In the words of Zambia's Finance minister, copper is the 66 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:23,520 Speaker 3: new oil and countries that have it, like Zambia are 67 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:24,920 Speaker 3: eager to exploit it. 68 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:29,560 Speaker 1: Matt when you talk about the minister saying that copper 69 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:32,760 Speaker 1: is the new oil, how all in is Zambia going 70 00:04:33,120 --> 00:04:36,279 Speaker 1: on their exploitation of the metal. 71 00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:40,040 Speaker 3: That's a really interesting question. For almost a decade, they 72 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:44,600 Speaker 3: were at loggerheads with the mining industry, trying to get 73 00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:48,560 Speaker 3: more tax revenue out of the mining industry, constantly changing 74 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:53,880 Speaker 3: the mineral's tax regime and basically trying to squeeze the mines. 75 00:04:53,960 --> 00:04:56,920 Speaker 3: That led to I guess you Gene called it a 76 00:04:57,040 --> 00:05:02,239 Speaker 3: flight from the mining industry. New government under President Haka 77 00:05:02,320 --> 00:05:07,480 Speaker 3: ind Hichilema came into power. They've made a concerted effort 78 00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:11,240 Speaker 3: to man fences with the mining industry. They just want 79 00:05:11,279 --> 00:05:14,200 Speaker 3: to go all out to grow copper production. The government 80 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:18,080 Speaker 3: is already making some headway. They've got some new investors 81 00:05:18,080 --> 00:05:22,520 Speaker 3: coming in a US company called Cobol Metals, which has 82 00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:27,000 Speaker 3: been carrying out exploration at its site in Zambia's Kopper 83 00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:31,080 Speaker 3: Bold Province, just south of the Congo border since announcing 84 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:33,920 Speaker 3: its investment in that asset in December twenty twenty two, 85 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:39,360 Speaker 3: it says it's proving up a hybrid copper deposit and 86 00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:42,640 Speaker 3: it plans to start building the mine there. 87 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:46,360 Speaker 1: So then, clearly, I mean the way you just spelled 88 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:51,799 Speaker 1: that out. Clearly President Gilemma sees a long term benefit 89 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:55,520 Speaker 1: for the economy with these tax breaks that he is 90 00:05:55,920 --> 00:05:58,400 Speaker 1: offering to these companies. What is it that you've heard 91 00:05:58,480 --> 00:06:02,000 Speaker 1: him say about the the transformative effect that it could 92 00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:03,440 Speaker 1: potentially have on the economy. 93 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:08,479 Speaker 3: Copper production is very much part of his government's economic growth. 94 00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:15,480 Speaker 3: Flats and copper in Zambia is super important. The country 95 00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:20,320 Speaker 3: depends on copper for about seventy five percent of its 96 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:28,920 Speaker 3: export earnings. Zamya's Africa's first pandemic era, sovereign default on 97 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:33,039 Speaker 3: its debt and its struggle to get out of default. 98 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:36,120 Speaker 3: It still is busy with the whole restructuring process, but 99 00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:39,279 Speaker 3: the point being that the money that it will earn 100 00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:42,880 Speaker 3: from growing its copper production is going to be crucial 101 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:47,240 Speaker 3: for the government to be able to service its newly 102 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:48,320 Speaker 3: restructured debts. 103 00:06:51,040 --> 00:06:53,520 Speaker 1: When you talk about President h Lemma, he's done a 104 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:56,479 Speaker 1: lot of global traveling. He's meeting with a lot of 105 00:06:56,520 --> 00:07:00,799 Speaker 1: investors and presidents, and he's at summit's talking about his country. 106 00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:03,440 Speaker 1: He's really public facing when he talks about sort of 107 00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:04,240 Speaker 1: the potential here. 108 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:08,000 Speaker 2: Every time we're talking about that attracting investments and partnership, 109 00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:12,000 Speaker 2: the local business community, who we love so much, begin 110 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:13,880 Speaker 2: to artitet. 111 00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:15,600 Speaker 6: A little bit. They may not say, but behind it 112 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:19,480 Speaker 6: their pread, they caught me, what about us? What are 113 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:22,960 Speaker 6: we're always inviting? Is Europeans, this is Chinese, these America. 114 00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:27,680 Speaker 6: It's not competition all the time, it's complimentary. 115 00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:32,560 Speaker 1: Is it convincing people? When you think about the big 116 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:35,360 Speaker 1: investors that he's meeting with, are people getting on board? 117 00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:41,480 Speaker 3: Absolutely? We've seen billions of dollars in new investments already 118 00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:43,520 Speaker 3: announced just over the party year and a half. 119 00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:47,960 Speaker 1: And Matthew, you and our colleague Tonga MITIMINGI have a 120 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:51,840 Speaker 1: really fascinating story out right now on Bloomberg about how 121 00:07:51,880 --> 00:07:55,360 Speaker 1: some of Silicon Valley's biggest investors actually took a trip 122 00:07:55,440 --> 00:07:58,800 Speaker 1: to Zambia to talk about copper and to meet about copper. 123 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:01,600 Speaker 1: Can you take us inside the meeting and what you 124 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:03,720 Speaker 1: know about how exactly it happened? 125 00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:07,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, it was really fascinating to watch, as you say, 126 00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:12,160 Speaker 3: some of Silicon Valley's biggest investors, companies that are more 127 00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:18,040 Speaker 3: associated with investing in things like Airbnb or Meta and 128 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:23,360 Speaker 3: those sorts of businesses. We had Anderson Horowitz, Bond Capital, 129 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:29,040 Speaker 3: the July Fund, and even t row Price sitting in 130 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:35,040 Speaker 3: Zambia's presidency discussing with President Hakee in the Hichilemma their 131 00:08:35,160 --> 00:08:38,520 Speaker 3: eagerness to invest in a new copper mind. 132 00:08:38,920 --> 00:08:42,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, and what does that mean going forward for copper production? 133 00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:44,800 Speaker 1: I mean, are we going to continue to see Zambia 134 00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:48,040 Speaker 1: and the DRC sort of tossling for this number one 135 00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:51,520 Speaker 1: spot and billions and billions more being poured into to 136 00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:54,120 Speaker 1: these countries or what's your expectation, Matt. 137 00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:59,720 Speaker 3: Definitely, the expectation is that Zambi's copper production is going 138 00:08:59,760 --> 00:09:04,760 Speaker 3: to see some significant increases in the next few years. 139 00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:09,480 Speaker 3: Whether or not the government manages to get anywhere close 140 00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:14,240 Speaker 3: to its very ambitious target of three million metric tons 141 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:19,079 Speaker 3: early in the next decade. I know a lot of 142 00:09:19,120 --> 00:09:22,240 Speaker 3: people are very skeptical that that will happen, but I 143 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:24,679 Speaker 3: think it's fair to say that a lot of the 144 00:09:24,760 --> 00:09:29,280 Speaker 3: world's ukopper supply is certainly going to be coming from 145 00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:32,320 Speaker 3: both Zambia and Congo. 146 00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:36,320 Speaker 1: Stick with us. After the break, we'll join William Close 147 00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:40,160 Speaker 1: in the DRC, the second largest producer of copper in 148 00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:46,560 Speaker 1: the world. We'll be right back. Thank you, Welcome back. 149 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:49,360 Speaker 1: Just before the break, we were talking about the ambition 150 00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:53,160 Speaker 1: of Zambia, but the country is facing another giant. As 151 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:57,800 Speaker 1: Matt was just explaining, the DRC, the second largest producer 152 00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:03,040 Speaker 1: in the world. Bloomberg Mining and Metals reporter William Clothes 153 00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:06,360 Speaker 1: is actually there right now. So William, you're in the 154 00:10:06,480 --> 00:10:10,199 Speaker 1: DRC at the moment, attending a mining conference. As luck 155 00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:12,559 Speaker 1: would have it, tell us a bit more about the 156 00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:16,360 Speaker 1: ambitions of the country, especially when it comes to copper. 157 00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:19,680 Speaker 4: Congo has ambitions to be one of the largest producers 158 00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:22,079 Speaker 4: of copper in the world and has made really major 159 00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:24,839 Speaker 4: strides in the last couple of years. When I came 160 00:10:24,920 --> 00:10:26,839 Speaker 4: to this conference for the first time in I think 161 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:31,040 Speaker 4: twenty seventeen, Congo produced just over one million tons of 162 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:33,959 Speaker 4: the metal. Last year it was almost three times that 163 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:37,200 Speaker 4: amount at around two point eight million tons. Now that's 164 00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:39,920 Speaker 4: a huge increase in a relatively short period of time, 165 00:10:40,360 --> 00:10:43,440 Speaker 4: which has lifted Congo above Peru as the world's second 166 00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:46,520 Speaker 4: biggest producer of copper now. This shift has happened at 167 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:48,520 Speaker 4: the time when the world is gearing up for greater 168 00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:51,440 Speaker 4: demand for copper on the back of the energy transition 169 00:10:51,640 --> 00:10:54,079 Speaker 4: and is anticipating shortages of the metal in the not 170 00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:57,800 Speaker 4: too distant future. All this copper is being dragged out 171 00:10:57,840 --> 00:11:00,320 Speaker 4: of the ground. Got dragged out of the Congolese soil 172 00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:05,440 Speaker 4: by numerous Chinese companies, including two very large mines controlled 173 00:11:05,520 --> 00:11:10,080 Speaker 4: by Seamock Group, as well as some Western firms such 174 00:11:10,240 --> 00:11:13,960 Speaker 4: as Glencore and Ivanhoe Mines. At a conference, I spoke 175 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:17,120 Speaker 4: to Phil Braun of Rock Metals about how important copper 176 00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:19,240 Speaker 4: is right now and will be in the future. 177 00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:22,959 Speaker 5: With the electrification of the world and the green initiative, 178 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:26,600 Speaker 5: the demand of copper is going to continue to outstrip 179 00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:31,839 Speaker 5: the supply. And coupled with what the Congo has, with 180 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:35,880 Speaker 5: the opportunity to provide that copper to the world, and 181 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:38,440 Speaker 5: the opportunity that the US and the Western world has 182 00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:43,360 Speaker 5: to get in here and produce ethically sourced copper, it's 183 00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:44,600 Speaker 5: a phenomenal opportunity. 184 00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:48,120 Speaker 1: So William, the DRC is the second biggest producer of 185 00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:51,440 Speaker 1: copper in the world, and yet, as we see across 186 00:11:51,559 --> 00:11:55,079 Speaker 1: much of the continent, the population doesn't actually reap the 187 00:11:55,160 --> 00:11:59,480 Speaker 1: benefits from the industry. How do you explain this disparity 188 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:02,560 Speaker 1: and where where are the revenues then going well? 189 00:12:02,720 --> 00:12:06,240 Speaker 4: On the one hand, Congo's economy is growing fast GDP 190 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:09,439 Speaker 4: rows eight point three percent in twenty twenty three, and 191 00:12:09,520 --> 00:12:13,040 Speaker 4: the copper boom is contributing to that improvement. The mining 192 00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:16,200 Speaker 4: companies would also say that they've been paying higher taxes 193 00:12:16,280 --> 00:12:21,480 Speaker 4: since twenty nineteen, when legislation considered quite generous by global standards, 194 00:12:21,679 --> 00:12:24,720 Speaker 4: was rewritten. But on the other hand, Congo remains one 195 00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:27,920 Speaker 4: of the world's poorest countries, and there's not much sign 196 00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:31,040 Speaker 4: of these mining riches trickling down to the population of 197 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:34,480 Speaker 4: one hundred million people, even in the copper rich southeast 198 00:12:34,520 --> 00:12:37,959 Speaker 4: of Congo. A decent demonstration of this is that one 199 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:41,439 Speaker 4: can drive the road for four hundred kilometers from the 200 00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:45,200 Speaker 4: mining hub of Kolwesi to the Zambian border, a stretch 201 00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:47,200 Speaker 4: of road that is lined with some of the richest 202 00:12:47,280 --> 00:12:49,959 Speaker 4: mines on the planet, and that transports out of the 203 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:53,400 Speaker 4: country millions and millions of tons of metals that are 204 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:56,320 Speaker 4: so coveted by the rest of the world, and yet 205 00:12:56,679 --> 00:12:59,520 Speaker 4: it's all too visible that the communities you see along 206 00:12:59,559 --> 00:13:02,439 Speaker 4: the way are seeing very few of the fruits of 207 00:13:02,520 --> 00:13:03,000 Speaker 4: that trade. 208 00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:06,839 Speaker 1: And William, what's the likelihood that this could actually be 209 00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:10,320 Speaker 1: a long term boost for the region. How long could 210 00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:12,319 Speaker 1: this copper boom actually last? 211 00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:15,720 Speaker 4: So there's a need to be clear eyed that both 212 00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:17,839 Speaker 4: countries will need to do a lot more than just 213 00:13:17,960 --> 00:13:20,839 Speaker 4: export more and more metal to a world that's increasingly 214 00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:24,640 Speaker 4: hungry for it. But investment banks, hedge fund managers and 215 00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:28,760 Speaker 4: the like are putting increasingly bullish predictions out there about 216 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:32,199 Speaker 4: how high the copper price will go as investment in 217 00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:35,840 Speaker 4: supply fails to keep pace with increased demands. If those 218 00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:39,439 Speaker 4: copper prices become reality, and if Congo keeps up its 219 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:43,480 Speaker 4: current performance, and if Zambia can add production, the treasuries 220 00:13:43,559 --> 00:13:46,920 Speaker 4: of both countries could look forward to healthy boosts. 221 00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:53,760 Speaker 1: And our thanks to Matthew Hill and William Close for 222 00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:57,360 Speaker 1: their reporting and for joining us. Today, copper prices have 223 00:13:57,640 --> 00:14:01,480 Speaker 1: pulled back slightly from their record highs, but the bullish 224 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:05,760 Speaker 1: sentiment still exists now. Only time will tell how Zambia 225 00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:11,120 Speaker 1: and the DRC's competition and potential cooperation factors into the 226 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:15,640 Speaker 1: moves by the industrial metal, especially as they continue tussling 227 00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:20,800 Speaker 1: for the title of the world's top copper producer. This 228 00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:25,600 Speaker 1: program was produced by Adrian Bradley and Leone Weadrago. You 229 00:14:25,640 --> 00:14:28,080 Speaker 1: can hear more stories like this one on the Next 230 00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:32,880 Speaker 1: Africa podcast, available every week wherever you usually get your podcast. 231 00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:36,560 Speaker 1: I'm Jennifer Zabasaja. Thank you so much for listening.