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Speaker 1: I'm Bob Crawford. This is founding son John Quincy's America.

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Speaker 1: In the early eighteen hundreds, the seeds of manifest destiny

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Speaker 1: began to take root. American settlers spread west at a

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Speaker 1: rapid pace. By the eighteen twenties, many white Southerners swooped

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Speaker 1: into northern Mexico, bringing the people they enslaved with them,

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Speaker 1: creating a plantation state similar to those in the American South.

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Speaker 1: In eighteen twenty nine, Mexico pushed back, banning slavery within

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Speaker 1: its borders its territories likely to follow. The move sent

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Speaker 1: outrage across the country's northern borderlands. Resentment built among white settlers,

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Speaker 1: and violent skirmishes broke out between them and the Mexican government.

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Speaker 1: By the fall of eighteen thirty five, and all out

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Speaker 1: war had begun against the Mexican Army. Texas forces were outnumbered, undisciplined,

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Speaker 1: and scattered, but the Texans knew the territory. They fortified

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Speaker 1: an old mission at a crucial crossroads and waited to

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Speaker 1: ambush the Mexican Army. Unbeknownst to the one hundred and

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Speaker 1: fifty or so Texans in the mission, including the soldiers' families,

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Speaker 1: the Mexican army had orders to destroy the rebellion once

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Speaker 1: and for all. The Mexican army surrounded the mission. When

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Speaker 1: one of the leaders of the Texans, Jim Bowie, looked

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Speaker 1: over the walls, he saw a sea of Mexican soldiers

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Speaker 1: nearly two thousand against fewer than two hundred Texans. When

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Speaker 1: the Texans refused to surrender, Mexican General Antonio Lopez de

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Speaker 1: Santa Anna ordered a red flag to be flown from

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Speaker 1: a nearby church, assigned to those hold up in the mission.

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Speaker 1: No quarter would be given. The Battle of the Alamo

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Speaker 1: had begun. Days into the siege of the Alamo, reinforcements

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Speaker 1: still hadn't arrived. Booye's co commander, William B. Travis, penned

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Speaker 1: a letter to his countrymen in all the world. From

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Speaker 1: within the Alamo walls.

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Speaker 2: Fellow citizens and compatriots, I'm besieged by a thousand and

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Speaker 2: more of the Mexicans under Santa Anna. I have sustained

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Speaker 2: a continual bombardment and cannonade for twenty four hours and

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Speaker 2: have not lost a man. The enemy has demanded a

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Speaker 2: surrender discretion, otherwise the garrison ought to be put to

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Speaker 2: the sword if the fort is taken, I have answered

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Speaker 2: the demand with the cannon shot, and our flag still

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Speaker 2: waves proudly from the walls. I shall never surrendt all retreat.

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Speaker 2: I am determined to sustain myself as long as possible,

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Speaker 2: and die like a soldier who never forgets what is

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Speaker 2: due to his own honor and that of his country.

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Speaker 1: Victory or death.

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Speaker 2: William Barrett Travis, Lieutenant colonel COMMANDWNT.

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Speaker 1: Just before the break of dawn on the thirteenth day

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Speaker 1: of fighting, the Mexican Army stormed the mission, sparing only women, children,

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Speaker 1: and enslaved people. In the slaughter. Every fighting man met

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Speaker 1: his end with either a bullet or a bayonet. The

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Speaker 1: message was clear. The Mexican Army was happy to abide

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Speaker 1: by William Travis's terms victory or death, but they weren't

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Speaker 1: the only ones to receive a message. Among the dead

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Speaker 1: at the Alamo, former Tennessee Congressman Davy Crockett outrage and

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Speaker 1: calls for vengeance rippled across hundreds and hundreds of miles

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Speaker 1: through the plantations of the South northward to Washington, d C.

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Speaker 1: And the floor of Congress. US citizens had been killed

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Speaker 1: at the hands of the Mexican Army. The bloodbath in

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Speaker 1: Texas was a tragedy, quickly becoming a national disaster. Lawmakers

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Speaker 1: were bombarded with calls to send US troops to Texas.

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Speaker 1: At the heart of this decision was a giant Texas

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Speaker 1: sized elephant in the room. What would happen if Northern

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Speaker 1: Mexican territory seized its independence were it join the United States?

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Speaker 1: And what would happen if a slave state the size

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Speaker 1: of Texas joined the Union. The outcome of the rebellion

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Speaker 1: had the potential to upset the balance of power in

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Speaker 1: the United States for generations Chapter four, Don't Mess with Tech.

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Speaker 1: When news of the massacre in Texas reached the US capital,

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Speaker 1: John Quincy Adams took to the House floor. He spoke

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Speaker 1: out against the US getting involved in a war with Mexico.

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Speaker 1: But before he or any other lawmaker could even decide

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Speaker 1: whether to send troops to Texas, the direction of the

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Speaker 1: war had shifted dramatically. Following the Alamo, the Texas Army,

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Speaker 1: a ragtag group of rebels, was on the run, retreating

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Speaker 1: eastward from San Antonio to the Gulf of Mexico. The

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Speaker 1: Mexican Army, close behind, committed to ending the rebellion. The

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Speaker 1: former governor of Tennessee and a close friend of Andrew Jackson,

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Speaker 1: Sam Houston, led the Texans with their backs against the

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Speaker 1: Gulf of Mexico and the Mexican army bearing down on them.

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Speaker 1: Houston ordered his men to make a final stand, turn

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Speaker 1: an attack rather than flee. On April twenty first, eighteen

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Speaker 1: thirty six, just weeks after the Battle of the Alamo,

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Speaker 1: Texans launched an assault against the Mexican army near modern

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Speaker 1: day Houston. Screaming Remember the Alamo, Houston's troops attacked mercilessly,

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Speaker 1: catching their enemy off guard. The Mexican army, surprised, scattered.

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Speaker 1: The battle lasted just eighteen minutes. At the end, Mexican

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Speaker 1: General Santa Ana stood in shackles. In exchange for his freedom,

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Speaker 1: he agreed to take his army and leave Texas for good.

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Speaker 1: The Alamo had been avenged. The Republic of Texas was

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Speaker 1: now an independent nation. They say everything is bigger in Texas. Well.

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Speaker 1: That was true in eighteen thirty six as well. With

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Speaker 1: Mexico no longer controlling this vast stretch of borderlands along

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Speaker 1: the American Southwest, a power vacuum had been created.

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Speaker 3: There's the sense that if Texas is an annex then

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Speaker 3: Great Britain is going to step in or some other

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Speaker 3: European power, and you'll have this big anti slavery borderland

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Speaker 3: in the Southwest. So slaveholders in their allies really want

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Speaker 3: to get Texas into the American Union, and then maybe

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Speaker 3: they want to create several states to boost their political

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Speaker 3: power on top of that.

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Speaker 1: This is Richard N. Newman, Professor of History at Rochester

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Speaker 1: Institute of Technology.

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Speaker 3: So this is a vital issue for Southerners and their allies,

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Speaker 3: and that makes it an incredibly important issue to the

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Speaker 3: abolitionist movement and to anti slavery congressmen in the North

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Speaker 3: like Adams.

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Speaker 4: Adams came to believe that the annexation of Texas was

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Speaker 4: being pursued by Southerners in the hopes of upsetting the

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Speaker 4: balance between slave states and free and so here I

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Speaker 4: need to go back a tiny bit in history explain.

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Speaker 1: That's John Quincy Adams biographer James Traub. He says, to

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Speaker 1: understand why Texas was such a political hot potato, you

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Speaker 1: have to go back to the eighteen twenties, when Adams

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Speaker 1: was Secretary of State. The Union was expanding westward, adding

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Speaker 1: more states all the time. In every new addition to

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Speaker 1: the Union had potential to disrupt the balance of power

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Speaker 1: between free and slave states. This proved especially challenging when

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Speaker 1: Missouri was becoming a state, because it's pretty central. Is

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Speaker 1: it a northern state or is it a southern state?

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Speaker 1: So Congress came up with a solution.

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Speaker 4: We will draw a line, an east west line, and

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Speaker 4: we will henceforward say that all states north of that

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Speaker 4: line would be free states, and all states below that

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Speaker 4: line would be slave states.

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Speaker 1: It was actually more of a compromise than a solution.

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Speaker 1: A line was drawn free states to the north, slave

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Speaker 1: states to the south, Missouri being an exception, a slave

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Speaker 1: state on the wrong side of the line. Since that

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Speaker 1: threw off the balance between free and slave states, a

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Speaker 1: new free state would have to be admitted.

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Speaker 4: What we now call the Missouri Compromise, and the compromise

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Speaker 4: ultimately said that we will allow a slave state, Missouri,

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Speaker 4: to come in along with the free state.

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Speaker 1: Main there was no doubt that Texas would be a

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Speaker 1: slave state, but Southern politicians had grand machinations. They wanted

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Speaker 1: to annex Texas and carve it up into several slave states,

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Speaker 1: completely destroying the Missouri Compromise and tilting the balance of

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Speaker 1: power in their favor. Congressman John Quincy caught wind of

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Speaker 1: the scheme and set out to prevent it. President Andrew

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Speaker 1: Jackson also opposed annexation. There was just one problem. His

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Speaker 1: term was coming to an end. The front runner to

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Speaker 1: replace him was Vice President Martin van Buren, the heir

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Speaker 1: apparent selected by Jackson himself. As you probably remember from

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Speaker 1: previous episodes, van Buren's coalition was made up of Northerners

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Speaker 1: and Southerners who rallied behind Jacksonian populism. But the coalition

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Speaker 1: was tenuous, and Van Buren knew it. As a Northerner,

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Speaker 1: he had to keep Southern politicians happy if he was

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Speaker 1: going to win the presidency. One thing that would make

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Speaker 1: them very happy, besides annexing Texas would be putting an

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Speaker 1: end to the discussion of slavery and Congress for good.

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Speaker 3: This is really a loyalty youth. You have to prove

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Speaker 3: to us how far you're willing to go to support

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Speaker 3: slaveholders in the United States. If you're willing to gag

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Speaker 3: your own constituents prevent them from speaking about an issue

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Speaker 3: we deem sensitive, then we're going to be your friends forever.

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Speaker 3: If not, we're gonna have to seriously reconsider the coalition.

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Speaker 3: And that's that's why Van Buren is doing everything he

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Speaker 3: can to stifle anti slavery petitioners, because this is all

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Speaker 3: about the coalition he has set.

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Speaker 1: Up Vice President. Van Buren, eyeing the presidency for himself,

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Speaker 1: had plenty of allies in the Lower Chamber, including Henry

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Speaker 1: Lawrence Pinkney of South Carolina, who shared a paternalistic view

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Speaker 1: of slavery. He saw it as benign.

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Speaker 3: As benevolent, as hard as it can be for us

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Speaker 3: to imagine, as good for enslave people as well as

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Speaker 3: for white masters slavery producers wealth. It also allows enslaved

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Speaker 3: people to gain the Christian Gospel and all these other

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Speaker 3: things that seem absolutely vile to us.

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Speaker 1: Pinkney set up a committee at the start of eighteen

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Speaker 1: thirty six to figure out what to do with the

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Speaker 1: thousands of anti slavery petitions flooding Congress. Hardliners wanted to

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Speaker 1: dismiss the petition's outright John Quincy a free reign to

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Speaker 1: read them. When Pinckney's committee finished its work in May,

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Speaker 1: he offered a series of resolutions, but it was the

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Speaker 1: final one that hit the House floor like a lit

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Speaker 1: stick at dynamite. Pinckney proposed that all petitions or other

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Speaker 1: correspondence to the House about slavery should quote be laid

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Speaker 1: upon the table and that no further action whatever shall

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Speaker 1: be had thereon. He's basically saying, we're not just going

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Speaker 1: to ignore all these anti slavery petitions in Congress. We're

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Speaker 1: gonna ban even mentioning them. They don't exist. A wave

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Speaker 1: of anger washed over John Quincy as he sat at

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Speaker 1: his desk. He jumped to his feet and said, and again,

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Speaker 1: I'm paraphrasing something along the lines of silent petitions. Have

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Speaker 1: you not read the First Amendment? Every American citizen has

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Speaker 1: the right to quote petition the government for a redress

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Speaker 1: of grievances. Adams demanded the motion be withdrawn. Pinkney and

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Speaker 1: his allies refused. Adams turned appealed to House Speaker James K. Polk,

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Speaker 1: He too refused.

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Speaker 5: Adams shot back, I am aware that there is a

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Speaker 5: slaveholder in the chair.

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Speaker 1: The House devolved into chaos. Southern congressmen shouted at Adams,

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Speaker 1: accusing him of violating parliamentary order. Still Adams persistent, exasperated,

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Speaker 1: and angry. I imagine him pointing at the Great Seal

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Speaker 1: of the United States, yelling quotes from the Constitution as

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Speaker 1: others shouted at him, pacing demanding to be heard. Polk

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Speaker 1: refused to let Adams speak. Adams froze, turned to the

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Speaker 1: speaker and asked, am I gagged or not? You know?

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Speaker 4: And the answer was he was.

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Speaker 1: Adams was in shock as the vote to silence petitions proceeded,

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Speaker 1: his voice now also silenced. When his name was called,

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Speaker 1: he got in one last jab voting nay.

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Speaker 5: He added, I hold the resolution to be a direct

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Speaker 5: violation of the Constitution of the United States.

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Speaker 1: His objections fell on deaf years. The resolution to ignore

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Speaker 1: anti slavery petitions on the House floor passed. It would

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Speaker 1: become known as the Gag rule.

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Speaker 4: The Gag rule was an anti John Quincy Adams rule.

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Speaker 1: The discussion even mentioned of slavery was now banned in

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Speaker 1: the House of Representatives. Here's the thing I love about

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Speaker 1: John Quincy Adams. Though he was an indomitable force and

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Speaker 1: nobody could shut him up when he had something to say.

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Speaker 1: Still ahead, Adams pulls as trademark political jiu jitsu on

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Speaker 1: the House floor and single handedly turns the tide on

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Speaker 1: the debate over Texas that's coming up after a break.

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Speaker 1: John Quincy Adams was gagged in the House, but not

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Speaker 1: in the press. His spirited stands against the expansion of

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Speaker 1: slavery made national headlines. They also caught the attention of

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Speaker 1: someone who wanted to help.

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Speaker 3: Benjamin Lundy presents himself to John Quincy Adams as this

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Speaker 3: very sympathetic religious moralist, someone who listens, someone who will

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Speaker 3: take very strong stands against slavery, but he's willing to

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Speaker 3: listen to other sides. He'll try to push and nudge

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Speaker 3: people rather than yell and.

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Speaker 1: Scream Newman Again.

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Speaker 3: What's important about this moment for Benjamin Lundy is, never

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Speaker 3: has a former president, never has a gifted statesman of

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Speaker 3: the stature of John Quincy Adams been at the center

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Speaker 3: of the abolitionist movement in Congress. And that's why he's

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Speaker 3: going the extra mile to nudge Adams into the anti

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Speaker 3: slavery cause. And it's doubly important to note that, by

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Speaker 3: temperament and by politics, Adams doesn't want to be in

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Speaker 3: that position.

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Speaker 1: Lundy begins writing to Adams in awe of his outspoken

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Speaker 1: stand against slavery. Adams responds, saying he's not an abolitionist.

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Speaker 1: Lundy agrees, You're not an abolitionist. You are a prophet.

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Speaker 6: The eyes of millions, my dear and honored friend, are

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Speaker 6: now turned to thee. No mortal ever held a part

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Speaker 6: of greater usefulness, more enviable distinction, or higher moral responsibility

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Speaker 6: than is thine at the present moment.

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Speaker 1: Adams couldn't help but be flattered. A frendship begins, they

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Speaker 1: write regularly.

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Speaker 4: Lundy was a Quaker, and so Lundy spoke, you know thou,

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Speaker 4: and put est at the end of all of his words,

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Speaker 4: and so forth. He was a very pure person. And

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Speaker 4: he and Adams had lengthy correspondences back and forth. And

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Speaker 4: I point out that Adam so got into Lundy's own

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Speaker 4: idiom that Adams began writing like a Quaker. He used

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Speaker 4: the same kind of old fashioned diction when addressing Lunda.

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Speaker 1: Lundy had traveled all over Texas. Now he was Adam's

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Speaker 1: man on the inside.

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Speaker 4: He went to Texas at the time that Texas was

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Speaker 4: rebelling against Mexico and becoming a republic, and Lundee feared

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Speaker 4: that Texas would be annexed by the United States, and

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Speaker 4: it was so big, it would be turned into some

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Speaker 4: huge numbers of states, perhaps as many as fifteen, and

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Speaker 4: they would all be pro slavery, and they'd vote for slavery.

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Speaker 1: Adams was warming to the abolitionist theology, but his wife,

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Speaker 1: Louisa was torn.

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Speaker 7: Part of that was because part of her identity was

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Speaker 7: being a sother being a Marylander. She was a citizen

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Speaker 7: in Maryland before she was a citizen in the US,

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Speaker 7: and her sisters, who are best friends, were slaveholders.

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Speaker 1: Louisa Thomas is a writer at The New Yorker and

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Speaker 1: author of Louisa, The Extraordinary Life of missus Adams. She

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Speaker 1: says Louisa and John Quincy were losing friends over his

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Speaker 1: stance against slavery. Their social ties were fraying. Louisa was

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Speaker 1: used to the name calling in sideways glances, but things

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Speaker 1: kept getting uglier.

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Speaker 7: She's scared because he's getting death threats, and she saw

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Speaker 7: anew of the death threats. She was afraid of the

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Speaker 7: violence against him, and you know, not unwisely, and she

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Speaker 7: wasn't ready to sacrifice him in the fight against slavery.

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Speaker 1: She wrote in her diary that supporting her husband meant

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Speaker 1: losing the love, the friendship, and the society of my

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Speaker 1: own nearest and dearest connections. Attacks against prominent abolitionist leaders

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Speaker 1: like Theodore Weld were on the rise. People regularly threw

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Speaker 1: eggs and rocks at him during his speeches, and things

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Speaker 1: got really ugly when an angry mob murdered an abolitionist

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Speaker 1: publisher in the fall of eighteen thirty seven. But then

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Speaker 1: a bright spot appeared. In the spring of eighteen thirty eight,

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Speaker 1: construction finished on the crown jewel of the movement, a

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Speaker 1: grand venue in center City Philadelphia, christened Pennsylvania Hall. It

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Speaker 1: was like the Capitol building for the abolitionist movement.

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Speaker 3: It's a safe space for abolitionists. They've spent a lot

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Speaker 3: of time and money trying to build it and what

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Speaker 3: is dedicated In May of eighteen thirty eight. People feel

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Speaker 3: like it's going to be this great symbol of freedom

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Speaker 3: in the United States.

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Speaker 1: But the hope didn't last long.

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Speaker 3: After three days, it was burned to the ground by

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Speaker 3: angry Philadelphians. But it's not just that the hall is

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Speaker 3: burned down after three days. It's that people in Philadelphia

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Speaker 3: blame abolitionists for bringing on the burning down of Pennsylvania Hall.

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Speaker 3: They said you caused this because you were radicals. You

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Speaker 3: spoke against slavery. You didn't listen to all the people

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Speaker 3: who told you to keep quiet and not say anything.

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Speaker 1: The pressure was mounting from all sides, the silence of

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Speaker 1: the growing abolitionist movement, violence in the streets, a gaggoeder

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Speaker 1: in the US capital. But this is why John Quincy

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Speaker 1: Adams was such an ally for the movement and a

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Speaker 1: lethal politician. He knew all the rules. Possibly more important,

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Speaker 1: he knew how to use the rules against his enemies.

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Speaker 1: Shortly after the burning of Pennhall, Congress took up debate

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Speaker 1: over the annexation of Texas. Resolutions poured into the Capitol,

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Speaker 1: arguing both for and a against annexation. The Foreign Affairs Committee,

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Speaker 1: dominated by slaveholders, refused to even read the resolutions. This

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Speaker 1: gave Adams an opening. I'm going to paraphrase again, but

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Speaker 1: this is essentially how it all went down. Adams asked,

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Speaker 1: have these petitions received even five minutes of consideration? Peeved?

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Speaker 1: The chair of the committee addresses him, how dare any

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Speaker 1: member catechise the Committee of its actions, essentially saying, how

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Speaker 1: dare you question our intentions? Another member blurts out, no,

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Speaker 1: we haven't read the resolutions. Big deal. Adams, knowing the rules, pounced.

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Speaker 1: He knew the committee was required to read the petitions

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Speaker 1: even if they don't address them, and he knew they

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Speaker 1: hadn't read them. So the committee goes, all right, whatever,

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Speaker 1: let's propose a resolution to take no action on these petitions. Then,

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Speaker 1: out of nowhere, Adam's favorite Southern foil, Wattie Thompson of

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Speaker 1: you guessed it, South Carolina, doubles down. He says, you

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Speaker 1: know what, I'd like to propose an amendment to that resolution.

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Speaker 1: My amendment calls on the President to immediately annex Texas.

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Speaker 1: Watty shoots a grin over at Adams, thinking he has

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Speaker 1: the upper hand, but he'd actually walked right into John

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Speaker 1: Quincy's trap. Adams knew Thompson would add some asenine amendment,

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Speaker 1: and he knew that you can amend an amendment. So

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Speaker 1: Adams makes an amendment. He says, okay, neither the President

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Speaker 1: or Congress has the power to annex Texas. This amendment

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Speaker 1: gave Adams complete access to the House floor to talk endlessly.

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Speaker 1: Waddie unwittingly had ripped the gag off Adams. Adams was unleashed.

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Speaker 1: He argued for women's suffrage and equal rights. He spoke

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Speaker 1: against the annexation of Texas. He quoted the Constitution and

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Speaker 1: the Declaration of Independence. He essentially filibustered for three weeks. Eventually,

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Speaker 1: a committee member asks Adams if he's ever gonna shut up.

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Speaker 1: Adams says that if the gentleman wished, he would.

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Speaker 5: Enter into a full and strict scrutiny of slavery, and

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Speaker 5: so long as God shall give me life and breath

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Speaker 5: and the faculty of speech, he shall have it to

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Speaker 5: his heart's content.

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Speaker 1: Adams basically says, I can do this all day, every day,

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Speaker 1: and twice on Sunday. Adams jammed up the House debate.

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Speaker 1: Over the course of the weeks he had held the floor,

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Speaker 1: newspapers printed his various rants. Instead of silencing him, his

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Speaker 1: opponents had essentially given him a bull and with this bullhorn,

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Speaker 1: Adams turned up the political pressure on the new President,

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Speaker 1: Martin van Buren, making it nearly impossible to annex Texas. Eventually,

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Speaker 1: Van Buren relented.

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Speaker 3: If John Quincy Adams doesn't do his multi week filibuster.

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Speaker 3: In June and July of eighteen thirty eight, these famous

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Speaker 3: Morning Hour speeches. It's pretty clear that the slave power

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Speaker 3: might well have succeeded in getting a vote on Texas

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Speaker 3: annexation earlier, and maybe successfully, But John Quincy Adams really

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Speaker 3: turns the entire North against this.

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Speaker 1: Adams for the win. The annexation of Texas had stalled,

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Speaker 1: but the fight over slavery was more heated than ever.

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Speaker 1: Within a year, it would boil over when a group

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Speaker 1: of enslaved Africans revolted and took over a ship destined

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Speaker 1: for Theribbean. When the Africans were captured off the coast

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Speaker 1: of the United States, a question spread across the nation,

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Speaker 1: what should happen to them? Like always, John Quincy Adams

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Speaker 1: found himself at the center of it all. On the

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Speaker 1: next episode of Founding Son, when.

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Speaker 3: A son says, you know, this could undermine everything you're

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Speaker 3: working for. But John Quincy Adams thinks the opposite. But

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Speaker 3: he's not willing to get involved until Lewis Happened shows

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Speaker 3: up in his doorstep.

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Speaker 5: They urged me so much and represented the case of

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Speaker 5: those unfortunate men as so critical, it being a case

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Speaker 5: of life and death, that I yielded and told them

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Speaker 5: that if by the blessing of God, my health and

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Speaker 5: strength should permit, I would argue the case well the

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Speaker 5: Supreme Court.

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Speaker 1: Founding Son is a curiosity podcast brought to you by

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Speaker 1: iHeart Podcasts and School of Humans. For help with this episode,

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Speaker 1: we want to thank James Traub, author of John Quincy

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Speaker 1: Adams Militant Spirit, Richard Newman, professor of history at Rochester

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Speaker 1: Institute of Technology, and Louisa Thomas, staff writer at the

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Speaker 1: New Yorker and author of Louisa The Extraordinary Life of

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Speaker 1: Missus Adams. Our lead producer, story editor and sound designer

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Speaker 1: is James Morrison. Our senior producer is Jessica Metzker. Our

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Speaker 1: production manager is Daisy Church. Fact checking by Adam Bisno.

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Speaker 1: This episode was mixed and mastered by George Hicks. Executive

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Speaker 1: producers are Virginia Prescott, Brandon Barr, L. C. Crowley, and

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Speaker 1: Jason English. Original music by me Bob Crawford. Additional scoring

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Speaker 1: by Blue Dot Sessions. John Quincy Adams is voiced by

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Speaker 1: Patrick Warburton, Andrew Jackson is voiced by Nick Offerman. Luisa

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Speaker 1: Adams is voiced by Gray Delisle. Additional voices in this

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Speaker 1: episode provided by Ben Sawyer and Michael Smerconish. Show art

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Speaker 1: designed by Darren Shock. Special thanks to John Higgins from

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Speaker 1: Curiosity Stream, Julia Chris Gaal, the Massachusetts Historical Society, and

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Speaker 1: the National Park Service. We couldn't do this podcast without them.

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Speaker 1: If you're a fan of the podcast, please give it

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Speaker 1: a five star rating in your podcast app. You can

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Speaker 1: also check out other Curiosity podcasts to learn about history,

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Speaker 1: pop culture, true crime, and more. This podcast was recorded

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Speaker 1: under a SAG after collective bargaining Agreement. I'm your host,

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Speaker 1: Bob Crawford. Thanks for listening.

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Speaker 4: School of Humans