Speaker 1: You are the only friend that I have that insists
Speaker 1: on FaceTime calls, not just a phone call with voice
Speaker 1: or a text message. You want to see my eyeballs.
Speaker 2: That's right. That means I'm the only friend that really
Speaker 2: cares about you.
Speaker 1: Is that what that means?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Other people are saying, hey, I only want you in
Speaker 2: this one dimension. I just want your voice. I'm saying, no,
Speaker 2: I want your voice, your facial expressions, your hand gestures, context.
Speaker 2: I want to see what's going on around you. Who
Speaker 2: else is there? Show me?
Speaker 1: And if you don't answer, as the kids FaceTime call,
Speaker 1: I'm calling again.
Speaker 2: What do you mean?
Speaker 1: It's like, oh, maybe she missed it. Let me give
Speaker 1: her some time to get ready. Maybe she didn't have reception.
Speaker 2: All of that being said, we love getting calls from y'all.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Sometimes y'all call just to say hi or to
Speaker 1: tell us how much you like the show.
Speaker 2: And sometimes y'all call to give us suggestions for episodes.
Speaker 1: One of our new friends, Rockie and White, call to
Speaker 1: suggest an episode topic that we really feel like is
Speaker 1: a major part of this episode.
Speaker 2: Peace Loves.
Speaker 3: I am in love with your podcasts, like y'all give
Speaker 3: me so much.
Speaker 2: Damn life.
Speaker 3: Thank you. I know that you said you are open
Speaker 3: to topic suggestions, and I am really interested. And you
Speaker 3: are having a discussion about gender and or sex and
Speaker 3: the way that it plays out, like with with people
Speaker 3: being trans or people truly embodying themselves as the gender,
Speaker 3: as the sex as themselves.
Speaker 2: Can't wait talk about that? Hello, get into it.
Speaker 3: I stole that that. Amen, all right, peace loves, thank you,
Speaker 3: Thank you, Rahem White.
Speaker 1: I'm TT and I'm Zachiah and from Spotify Studios. This
Speaker 1: is Dope laps ho hope.
Speaker 2: So listening to Raheem's comments, really, you know, that's a
Speaker 2: really big topic.
Speaker 1: It is, and it would be really really hard to
Speaker 1: do an episode that covers everything.
Speaker 2: But I feel like we have the opportunity to kind
Speaker 2: of touch on a little bit of it. It feels really timely,
Speaker 2: especially considering what's been going on with Caster Semenya's case
Speaker 2: with the I double af oh following.
Speaker 1: Yes, it's so crazy to me, that whole situation.
Speaker 2: So let's run down for the people what happened.
Speaker 1: Okay. So, Caster Semenya is a South African Olympic gold
Speaker 1: medalist that competes in track and field.
Speaker 2: Her body naturally produces more testosterone than the average woman,
Speaker 2: and so then the IAF came on the scene saying
Speaker 2: they think this is an advantage for her.
Speaker 1: And she recently challenged the IBAF.
Speaker 2: The i DOUBLEAF is the International Association of Athletics Federation.
Speaker 2: They were founded in nineteen twelve to be the governing
Speaker 2: authority for athletics and that's just a turn and used
Speaker 2: for a track and field specifically, and they make the
Speaker 2: rules about who can and cannot compete in international competitions.
Speaker 2: In twenty eleven, they made a rule that said women
Speaker 2: with a certain level of testosterone are ineligible for competition,
Speaker 2: and Duti Chand, an Indian runner, successfully challenged these regulations
Speaker 2: in twenty fourteen.
Speaker 1: In twenty eighteen, the IBLEAF presented updated regulations and they
Speaker 1: were meant to replace those previous regulations that Chan basically
Speaker 1: knocked out. But Duty was a shorter distance runner, and
Speaker 1: they only changed the rules for those distances, but left
Speaker 1: the testosterone regulations in place for longer distances.
Speaker 2: Right, and that's exactly what cast does. She won the
Speaker 2: women's eight hundred meters gold medal at the last two Olympics.
Speaker 1: So Castro went back to the IAAF and was like,
Speaker 1: what's up? The sain't fair. You need to get rid
Speaker 1: of these rules for all the distances, not just some.
Speaker 2: And Caster has been subject to so many tests over
Speaker 2: her entire professional career, and I'd like to note she
Speaker 2: passed all of them.
Speaker 1: And so this feels like they're moving the goalposts. Imagine
Speaker 1: you've been running your whole life, doing all the right things,
Speaker 1: working hard, and then someone says, oh, you have this
Speaker 1: thing naturally occurring in your body that happens to other people,
Speaker 1: but we're gonna say that you can't compete anymore because
Speaker 1: of that thing. First of all, do you know the
Speaker 1: amount of training and preparation it takes to be an Olympian?
Speaker 1: I don't know why I'm not an Olympian.
Speaker 2: Come listen.
Speaker 1: That's why none of us are.
Speaker 2: This whole thing bothers me because the premise is that
Speaker 2: her hormone levels put her at an advantage, as if
Speaker 2: all these test things and all this stuff disrupting her
Speaker 2: schedule doesn't put her at a disadvantage. And there are
Speaker 2: lots of things that are not hormones, that are not biological,
Speaker 2: that put you at an advantage. Nobody's regulating or normalizing
Speaker 2: the amount of training, the amount of resources, the amount
Speaker 2: of nutrition prep plans, the amount of exercise. So why
Speaker 2: are you picking this one thing and saying that has
Speaker 2: to be the same. Everything else can be variable, but
Speaker 2: that has to be the same. That's crazy to me.
Speaker 1: It's weird.
Speaker 2: So we wanted to ask kind of what's the science
Speaker 2: behind this, what's going on with caster Somenia's case, right,
Speaker 2: because it feels like everything that's going on with it
Speaker 2: in the IBAF is more reactionary. Who are the scientists
Speaker 2: for the I double AF, That's what I want to know.
Speaker 1: What group of scientists came to the conclusion are there
Speaker 1: scientists that work at the IAF.
Speaker 2: Show yourself, which among you has a doctorate? Show yourself
Speaker 2: and show your lab notebook. We want to see exactly
Speaker 2: even that thing better be clean. As we're talking through this,
Speaker 2: this feels like one tiny piece of the bigger pie
Speaker 2: of the conversation about regulating and controlling women's bodies right
Speaker 2: It's all over social media right now. Honestly, the policing
Speaker 2: of women's bodies is something that is at the forefront
Speaker 2: of everybody's minds because the people who are doing the
Speaker 2: policing are men. And then the people are being policed
Speaker 2: are the women.
Speaker 1: So let's get into the recitation. What do we know?
Speaker 2: Do you have a couple of things that we want
Speaker 2: to address here. First we need to lay down the law.
Speaker 2: We got to bring y'all everybody up to speed because
Speaker 2: some of y'all Fox News don't understand the difference between sex.
Speaker 2: So that's biological sex and gender identity and sexual preference.
Speaker 2: Some of y'all don't understand the difference between them. But
Speaker 2: that's okay, because we're going to walk you through it.
Speaker 2: We know sex and gender are not the same thing.
Speaker 2: Now people may use them interchangeably, but they are not
Speaker 2: the same thing. We also know that sex, in the
Speaker 2: traditional way it is used refers to the presentation of
Speaker 2: your primary sexual characters. If y'all remember that from the pilot. Okay,
Speaker 2: that is, do you biologically appear male or female? And
Speaker 2: even that is a really crude classification because we know
Speaker 2: that sometimes there's some ambiguous external features when it comes
Speaker 2: to biological assignment of sex. Gender is your psychological feeling
Speaker 2: of maleness or femaleness. So when we talk about someone's
Speaker 2: gender identity or gender expression, right, we say someone is
Speaker 2: cis gendered. CIS as in the same when how they
Speaker 2: feel psychologically about themselves or they feel let's say I
Speaker 2: feel really female and biologically I present as female. That
Speaker 2: is cis. Those two things are the same.
Speaker 1: So when you are biologically female and when your brain
Speaker 1: identifies your being as female.
Speaker 2: Yes, trans which means opposite or different is when someone
Speaker 2: biologically presents as female and psychologically identifies as male, or
Speaker 2: biologically presents as male and psychologically identifies as female.
Speaker 1: And then there are people who are a gender, which
Speaker 1: means that regardless of what their biology says, they don't
Speaker 1: feel a majority pull towards one gender or the other.
Speaker 2: So, now that we've gone through through biological sex and gender,
Speaker 2: we want to point out that these things have nothing
Speaker 2: to do with sexual orientation.
Speaker 1: Sexual orientation has nothing to do with your sex or
Speaker 1: your gender, so we're not talking about that in this episode.
Speaker 2: So, now that we've leveled the play and field, here
Speaker 2: are some of our questions. So we're going to talk
Speaker 2: about some of the hormones. What is testosterone. We know
Speaker 2: it's a hormone, but what does it have to do
Speaker 2: with your ability to perform as an athlete?
Speaker 1: Does testosterone give you a competitive edge, like if you
Speaker 1: have more of it.
Speaker 2: Are there other hormones that we should be considering or
Speaker 2: is testosterone the only one that matters.
Speaker 1: I want to know what is the average testosterone level
Speaker 1: for a woman and who determined the baseline in the
Speaker 1: IAF and what are the effects of having a higher
Speaker 1: testosterone level.
Speaker 2: So I think that's a good starting ground for us.
Speaker 2: Very good, let's dig in for today's dissection. We've invited
Speaker 2: doctor Anthony Hackney.
Speaker 4: I'm doctor Anthony Hackney of the University of North Carolina
Speaker 4: at Chapel Hill, a professor of Exercise Physiology and Nutrition
Speaker 4: in the Department of Exercise and Supports Science.
Speaker 1: Doctor Hackney served as a scientific expert on the Castors
Speaker 1: to Menu case against the IAAF, and he testified several
Speaker 1: times on her behalf.
Speaker 2: We'll talk more about Caster's case later in the show,
Speaker 2: but first, let's talk about hormones.
Speaker 1: We know that testosterone is a hormone, but what are
Speaker 1: hormones like on the Grand scheme.
Speaker 2: Hormones are chemical signals that are secreted into your blood
Speaker 2: or other fluids in the body, and they just act
Speaker 2: on other cells. So you have other cells that may
Speaker 2: have a receptor and they get that signal. So hormones
Speaker 2: are often considered like the long distance signal, so they
Speaker 2: can travel throughout the bloodstream.
Speaker 1: And then depending on what type of hormony it is,
Speaker 1: it has a specific function.
Speaker 2: Yeah. A hormone is a broad term for any kind
Speaker 2: of chemical signal that acts on another cell.
Speaker 1: Okay, So where are they made? Where do they come from?
Speaker 2: Hormones are made in cells, and those tend to be
Speaker 2: grouped in different glands. Right. So thyroid that's a gland
Speaker 2: that makes hormones, the pituitary gland, testes, ovaries, adrenal glands.
Speaker 1: And so all of those glands they make up your
Speaker 1: endocrine system, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, those glands and cells that secrete hormones make up
Speaker 2: your indocrine system. Okay, and so the study of those
Speaker 2: hormones and those glands is into chronology. So hormones are
Speaker 2: basically a communication network. They kind of keep your body
Speaker 2: at its physiological norm. So people don't think of it often,
Speaker 2: but insulin is a hormone, oh right, So keeping your
Speaker 2: gluclose level in a range that is physiologically is favorable. Right.
Speaker 2: And so hormones, because they both regulate kind of or
Speaker 2: keep you balanced physiologically as a full adult, but they're
Speaker 2: also involved in the development of you as an adult.
Speaker 2: So hormones change as you grow through puberty. That's a
Speaker 2: that's a stage that we really know or people will
Speaker 2: often say, like, oh, it's hormones and stuff.
Speaker 1: Right, And so your endocrine system when you're at that
Speaker 1: age is like pumping out all kinds of stuff. It's like,
Speaker 1: all right, it's not for you to grow up. You're
Speaker 1: gonna hate your mom for about a year.
Speaker 2: That is not exactly how I would have described it,
Speaker 2: but thank you you guys wan TC teaching your kids biology.
Speaker 2: I love it. So hormones play a role even in
Speaker 2: early stages of development, and it also has a role
Speaker 2: in biological sex.
Speaker 1: And doctor Hackney says that there are three specific types
Speaker 1: of hormones that are critical in determining biological sex. It's testosterone, estrogen,
Speaker 1: and progesterone.
Speaker 2: People sometimes think of testosterone as the male hormone and
Speaker 2: estrogen as the female hormone, but we all actually have
Speaker 2: all three.
Speaker 4: But what we find is when we're looking at males
Speaker 4: as females, the proportionality the amount of each of those
Speaker 4: hormones is quite different.
Speaker 1: Typically, men have a lot of testosterone and much smaller
Speaker 1: amounts of estrogen and progesterone, while most women have smaller
Speaker 1: amounts of testosterone and much greater amounts of estrogen and progesterone.
Speaker 2: Let's look at testosterone levels specifically, since that was the
Speaker 2: focus of cast Seminius case. What are the average levels
Speaker 2: of testosterone for both men and women.
Speaker 4: Men are going to have testosterone that's about ten to
Speaker 4: thirty nanimals per leader. Women are going to have testosterone
Speaker 4: that's going down to zero to about ten nanimals per lider.
Speaker 1: So what makes testosterone so special?
Speaker 4: Testosterone has both anabolic and androgenic properties testosterones.
Speaker 2: Androgenic properties means that it contributes to the development of
Speaker 2: male characteristics, particularly around puberty. So that's deep voice a
Speaker 2: lot of body hair, you know, things that we typically
Speaker 2: associate with b and male And.
Speaker 4: When we talk about anabolic we're talking about the ability
Speaker 4: to influence protein synthesis. And when we think of protein synthesis,
Speaker 4: we tend to think of muscle tissue. And what you
Speaker 4: find is in the presence of testosterone, muscle will grow
Speaker 4: and will be able to add more muscle to the body.
Speaker 1: This helps explain why everyone is talking so much about
Speaker 1: testosterone as an indicator for maleness in sports as opposed
Speaker 1: to talking about estrogen and progesterone, because estrogen and progesterone
Speaker 1: don't contribute as much to what we see as stereotypically
Speaker 1: athletic functions.
Speaker 4: But having said that, just because you have more testosterone
Speaker 4: and you might have more muscle mass is not automatically
Speaker 4: something that results in you having an enhance sporting performance.
Speaker 1: Folks think that having higher testosterone levels means that you're
Speaker 1: automatically going to be the Hulk or the Juggernaut, but not.
Speaker 4: And the other point I want to make is sometimes
Speaker 4: people again tend to view this in a very simplistic fashion.
Speaker 4: What you find is they tend to think of it
Speaker 4: as linear and proportional. Oh, if I have twice the testosterone,
Speaker 4: I have the capacity to have twice the muscle, therefore
Speaker 4: twice the strength, twice the power output. And it's not
Speaker 4: a linear relationship, it's not proportional.
Speaker 2: Testostphone is not the defining factor of maleness or athleticism.
Speaker 2: If we're regulating testosterone, we should probably be regulating some
Speaker 2: other genetic and biological factors that could affect athletic performance.
Speaker 2: So if you think about it, like we should probably
Speaker 2: be talking about Michael Phelps, right because Michael Phelps, who
Speaker 2: we all know, is a world class swimmer. You know,
Speaker 2: he's won a bunch of gold medals, but he also
Speaker 2: is known to produce way less lactic acid than the
Speaker 2: average man. And lactic acid you know when they say
Speaker 2: feel to burn when you're working out, that's what the.
Speaker 1: Lactic acid is and what you're feeling. And since he
Speaker 1: doesn't produce as much, he is able to recover from
Speaker 1: workouts way faster than his other male competitors.
Speaker 2: Then you have to think, well, why is it lactic
Speaker 2: aid production regulated? It sounds like he has an unfair advantage. Now, hmmm, interesting,
Speaker 2: very interesting, Simps Tea. If I do say so myself,
Speaker 2: I'll have conference with this tea. So we're gonna take
Speaker 2: a quick break and when we come back, we're going
Speaker 2: to talk more about Caster Semenya's case against the IUBLEAF
Speaker 2: and then what her options are in this scenario.
Speaker 1: And we're back, and now we're going to dive into
Speaker 1: the Caster se Mena case in more detail.
Speaker 4: What happened The IBLEAF, which is in charge of track
Speaker 4: and field or athletics as it's known through most of
Speaker 4: the rest of the world. Have tried to make certain
Speaker 4: that the playing field is fair and so that we
Speaker 4: have men competing against men, women competing against women. So
Speaker 4: they came up with this materia in the last few
Speaker 4: years of X amount of testosterone would designate someone as
Speaker 4: being a man. Below x amount of testosterone would be
Speaker 4: as someone designated as a woman.
Speaker 2: So what is the IUBLEAF defined criteria for a man
Speaker 2: and a woman.
Speaker 4: The original value that they set for male versus female,
Speaker 4: the cut point was a unit of ten animals per leader.
Speaker 4: If you were below ten, you're a woman. If you
Speaker 4: were above ten a man.
Speaker 2: Just as a reminder, we know that women have testosterone
Speaker 2: levels from zero to ten and men have testosterone levels
Speaker 2: from ten to thirty. So the IUBLEAF redid their analysis
Speaker 2: and said, hm, ten's too high, let's make it five
Speaker 2: for women.
Speaker 4: So now the criteria is, according to the IUBLEAF, if
Speaker 4: you are at five to zero nanimals per leader of testosterone,
Speaker 4: you are a woman. If you're ten to thirty, you're
Speaker 4: a man.
Speaker 1: How are they even coming up with these numbers?
Speaker 2: Right? That's half the range, half the known range. You
Speaker 2: know for a fact, right that women fall between zero
Speaker 2: and ten, and you're just like five. I've decided and
Speaker 2: noticed that the range for women that the IAAF is
Speaker 2: setting is from zero to five, and the men is
Speaker 2: from ten to thirty. And so now you're saying five
Speaker 2: and above. Even though our known range for men was
Speaker 2: ten to thirty, you're saying five and above. Now you're
Speaker 2: a man. That's crazy.
Speaker 4: The way they came up with this is, as most
Speaker 4: people were aware, at the very high level of sports,
Speaker 4: there is testing for doping of athletes. Well, these doping
Speaker 4: tests have involved many times collecting urine samples but also
Speaker 4: blood samples, and so the IAAF, in concert with some
Speaker 4: of the doping control agencies, went back into their data
Speaker 4: files and came up with their standards based upon that.
Speaker 2: It's hard for me a scenario where you say, I
Speaker 2: get more data, so now I have fewer outliers. What
Speaker 2: now I.
Speaker 1: Narrow the range. It doesn't make sense. If you're seeing
Speaker 1: that women fall within this range from zero to ten,
Speaker 1: why would you then narrow it.
Speaker 2: And say, actually, I changed my mind, turned to CUSHA
Speaker 2: goal change your mind from now change my mind. Oh
Speaker 2: we are sharp.
Speaker 1: That's fine.
Speaker 2: So we know now in Castor's case that the IAAF
Speaker 2: is saying her testosterone levels are too high. So she
Speaker 2: has three options. She can stop competing all together, compete
Speaker 2: with men, or lower her hormone levels. And if she
Speaker 2: wants to lower her hormone levels, she has two options.
Speaker 2: That's to have some type of hormone surgery or to
Speaker 2: take hormone suppressants.
Speaker 1: And the way that these suppressants work is that they
Speaker 1: target the gonads. Yes, women have gonads, it's your ovaries
Speaker 1: or the adrenal glands, and these suppressants make them stop
Speaker 1: producing or greatly decrease the amount of testoone that's produced.
Speaker 4: The problem you run into is when you start suppressing intocrenfunction,
Speaker 4: there is always going to be a cascade of some
Speaker 4: side effects. And one of the side effects in the
Speaker 4: context of these drugs is it can make the athlete
Speaker 4: or any individual feel very lethargic, very tired. They can
Speaker 4: experience some aspects of mood swings that relate to their motivation.
Speaker 1: Turn that ball around, we want to see the fine print.
Speaker 2: What are the nutrition facts on that. Because intestinserone is
Speaker 2: involved in other pathways with other hormone.
Speaker 1: Right, like on those commercials for any drug when it's
Speaker 1: like this may cost diarrhea, consumpation, and you may want
Speaker 1: to cut off your left arm.
Speaker 4: And so you find that the athlete who is on
Speaker 4: this treatment may therefore not be able to train as
Speaker 4: well because they don't feel well, they may not be
Speaker 4: as motivated, and training is a critical thing for enhancing
Speaker 4: sports performance.
Speaker 1: So basically they're setting these women up to how are
Speaker 1: you supposed to be an elite athlete if you don't
Speaker 1: even have the motivation or the energy to train? That
Speaker 1: turns castas and mena into T T. Shadia couch potato extraordinaire.
Speaker 2: So what about men? What if we have a man
Speaker 2: that has a high level of testosterone? Is anybody checking this?
Speaker 2: Because that range is ten to thirty that's a pretty
Speaker 2: big range. So are certain men gonna have to take
Speaker 2: hormone suppressants if we flip it on his head? What
Speaker 2: about men that have low levels of testosterone? Are they
Speaker 2: now going to to be able to take hormones? Right?
Speaker 1: Because doctor Hackney told us about an actual scenario where
Speaker 1: men who exercise a lot over a long period of time,
Speaker 1: they experience this thing called hypogonadism which causes their testosterone
Speaker 1: level to drop, so you could be an elite athlete
Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden everything goes pear shape.
Speaker 4: One of the questions when we were at the actual
Speaker 4: court of arbitration for sport I brought up was are
Speaker 4: we going to next move to those men who have
Speaker 4: low testosterone and give them supplementation so that we can
Speaker 4: classify them as a man. And that question was very
Speaker 4: quickly shut down by the judges and the other legal
Speaker 4: team saying, that's not the question we're dealing with. But
Speaker 4: might we see that as a future legal argument that
Speaker 4: someone's going to bring. I don't know, but I would
Speaker 4: not be surprised.
Speaker 2: So where do we go from here? I mean, is
Speaker 2: there a future where even the young tykes in the
Speaker 2: pee wee league and the AAU basketball team, where they're
Speaker 2: now doing hormone testing right and disqualifying all of these
Speaker 2: people from certain sports because or telling them they have
Speaker 2: to compete in a sport that is for a different sex. Yeah,
Speaker 2: Like what's next?
Speaker 1: I don't know. And what doctor Hackney is saying is
Speaker 1: that it's this, in his opinion, is going to lead
Speaker 1: to this slippery slope.
Speaker 4: I'm speaking opinion here. My fear here is that, to
Speaker 4: use a cliche, we have started down a slippery slope
Speaker 4: where a sporting organization gets to dictate whether someone is
Speaker 4: a man or a woman and then impact their lives.
Speaker 4: I'm a person who does believe in having a level
Speaker 4: and fair playing field, but I don't think the again,
Speaker 4: the criteria and the method that is being applied in
Speaker 4: this particular case is solid enough and full proof enough
Speaker 4: that we're not going to ultimately do some harm to
Speaker 4: some women athletes who are going to be told they
Speaker 4: cannot compete as women.
Speaker 2: I think one of the major things that I took
Speaker 2: away from what doctor Hackney was saying is that it's
Speaker 2: not cut and dry, right. Testosterone is not like one
Speaker 2: single player out here. It's interacting with other things, and
Speaker 2: it's not a linear relationship. I think that was one
Speaker 2: of the most eye opening things for me. And I
Speaker 2: had no clue about those ranges. I knew that they
Speaker 2: were moving the levels, but I didn't know that there
Speaker 2: was so like such an apparent gap. So it's like
Speaker 2: now that they basically created this five to ten gap
Speaker 2: that's not male and it's not female, and then it's
Speaker 2: just arbitrarily saying it's male.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think the part that stood out for
Speaker 1: me was the fact that it's only those ranges for
Speaker 1: certain events. Yes, that was so jarring for me because
Speaker 1: I was just like, this does not come, does not compute,
Speaker 1: So I don't very good point. So it's just like
Speaker 1: it's not even just the range was changed, it's that
Speaker 1: it's not even across the board.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So you got to decide is chestosterone providing a
Speaker 2: competitive edge.
Speaker 1: Or not, because it should provide it for every single event.
Speaker 2: You can't say it's only useful if you run a mile,
Speaker 2: but not if you run three quarters.
Speaker 1: What that doesn't make sense, not to me at least.
Speaker 1: Imagine you get to your job and they're like, sorry,
Speaker 1: based on the amount of hair loss that you have,
Speaker 1: you are now a man.
Speaker 2: That would be crazy.
Speaker 1: That's crazy. And so that means that you would have
Speaker 1: to use the men's rest. It would literally change everything
Speaker 1: you do at work.
Speaker 2: Now, that's a good example, but for somebody like caster Samnia,
Speaker 2: it's like we're saying you're a man at work, and
Speaker 2: now I will introduce you to the entire world as
Speaker 2: a man. Because when you think about it, The only
Speaker 2: way I know who cast Samenia is is because her
Speaker 2: employer introduced her to me right through the television, through
Speaker 2: the tail of vision, Track and Field. And so now
Speaker 2: it's not even like, oh, they're just saying, they're just
Speaker 2: putting an m on my on my pace up right,
Speaker 2: Like I know I'm not a man, They're just on
Speaker 2: my pace up. Like this is public to the entire world,
Speaker 2: you know. And it doesn't really stop there because we
Speaker 2: know where there's one law, there's another, a new law
Speaker 2: soon come.
Speaker 1: Another one right, another one and another one.
Speaker 2: And because we know those laws are not creating in isolation,
Speaker 2: it kind of brings like what's gonna be next?
Speaker 1: I feel like I can already predict what's going to
Speaker 1: happen next. You know how like they do sports for kids,
Speaker 1: how they group them by age group, right, And so
Speaker 1: what if they test this this little kid and they're like, oh,
Speaker 1: I know he's five, but he has the testosterone level
Speaker 1: of a sixteen year old. So now he's got to
Speaker 1: go play on the JV team at the at the
Speaker 1: high school. Man, that's crazy, that's crazy. No, little Timmy
Speaker 1: needs to be playing with five year olds because he
Speaker 1: has the brain of a five year old.
Speaker 2: He still has his baby team. You can't be out
Speaker 2: here playing with these sixteen year.
Speaker 1: Old right, He's still taking Flintstone vitamins at night. Okay,
Speaker 1: So I'm joking because testosterone doesn't really kick in until
Speaker 1: after puberty. But I mean, there's some huge implications here.
Speaker 2: And the people that are making the decisions are not
Speaker 2: the ones that are affected by it. And it sounds
Speaker 2: about Alabama. Sounds about Alabama, sounds about Kentucky and Georgia.
Speaker 2: Y'all better wake up. For more on today's episode, check
Speaker 2: out our cheat sheet and show notes at Dope Labs
Speaker 2: podcasts dot com.
Speaker 1: And remember the phone lines are always open. You can
Speaker 1: leave us a question or a comment or text us.
Speaker 1: Our number is two zero two five six seven seven
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Speaker 2: Labs podcast. T t is on Twitter and Instagram at
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Speaker 1: Special Thanks today to our guest doctor Anthony Hackney. If
Speaker 1: you want to learn more about the topics in today's lab,
Speaker 1: check out his book Doping, Performance Enhancing Drugs and Hormones
Speaker 1: and Sport.
Speaker 2: We'll link to it in our show notes on Dope
Speaker 2: Labs podcast dot com. Special thank you to Raheem White,
Speaker 2: our wonderful listener who called in and gave us a
Speaker 2: question that led to today's episode. Our producer is Jenny
Speaker 2: Rattle at MAAST. Mixing and sound design by Hannes Brown.
Speaker 1: Original theme music by Taka Yasuzawa and Alex sugi Ura.
Speaker 1: Additional music by Elijah Lexhrvey.
Speaker 2: Dope Labs is brought to you by three M and
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Speaker 2: and is executive produced by us T. T. Shadia and
Speaker 2: Zakiah Wattley. Who you think will winning a foot rights
Speaker 2: me or you?
Speaker 3: If you?
Speaker 1: It depends on what's it the finish line? If if
Speaker 1: if it's organic greens, I'm losing.
Speaker 2: I'm winning. I'm winning.
Speaker 1: If there's hot dogs at the finish line, I'm definitely winning.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you'll beat me. I love hot dogs.