WEBVTT - Lab 008: Fair Play 0:00:00.360 --> 0:00:03.720 You are the only friend that I have that insists 0:00:03.800 --> 0:00:08.240 on FaceTime calls, not just a phone call with voice 0:00:08.360 --> 0:00:11.440 or a text message. You want to see my eyeballs. 0:00:11.560 --> 0:00:13.480 That's right. That means I'm the only friend that really 0:00:13.560 --> 0:00:14.400 cares about you. 0:00:15.560 --> 0:00:16.560 Is that what that means? 0:00:16.640 --> 0:00:16.920 Yeah? 0:00:17.160 --> 0:00:18.799 Other people are saying, hey, I only want you in 0:00:18.800 --> 0:00:20.680 this one dimension. I just want your voice. I'm saying, no, 0:00:20.720 --> 0:00:24.120 I want your voice, your facial expressions, your hand gestures, context. 0:00:24.120 --> 0:00:26.040 I want to see what's going on around you. Who 0:00:26.040 --> 0:00:27.120 else is there? Show me? 0:00:28.960 --> 0:00:30.920 And if you don't answer, as the kids FaceTime call, 0:00:31.600 --> 0:00:32.360 I'm calling again. 0:00:34.280 --> 0:00:34.920 What do you mean? 0:00:35.240 --> 0:00:37.159 It's like, oh, maybe she missed it. Let me give 0:00:37.200 --> 0:00:39.400 her some time to get ready. Maybe she didn't have reception. 0:00:39.800 --> 0:00:42.360 All of that being said, we love getting calls from y'all. 0:00:42.520 --> 0:00:45.159 Yeah. Sometimes y'all call just to say hi or to 0:00:45.200 --> 0:00:46.400 tell us how much you like the show. 0:00:46.479 --> 0:00:48.880 And sometimes y'all call to give us suggestions for episodes. 0:00:49.040 --> 0:00:51.519 One of our new friends, Rockie and White, call to 0:00:51.560 --> 0:00:54.480 suggest an episode topic that we really feel like is 0:00:54.520 --> 0:00:56.400 a major part of this episode. 0:00:56.640 --> 0:00:57.480 Peace Loves. 0:00:57.680 --> 0:01:01.560 I am in love with your podcasts, like y'all give 0:01:01.600 --> 0:01:02.480 me so much. 0:01:02.640 --> 0:01:03.560 Damn life. 0:01:03.680 --> 0:01:07.600 Thank you. I know that you said you are open 0:01:07.640 --> 0:01:14.200 to topic suggestions, and I am really interested. And you 0:01:14.240 --> 0:01:20.480 are having a discussion about gender and or sex and 0:01:20.600 --> 0:01:24.559 the way that it plays out, like with with people 0:01:24.600 --> 0:01:30.640 being trans or people truly embodying themselves as the gender, 0:01:31.080 --> 0:01:33.160 as the sex as themselves. 0:01:33.360 --> 0:01:36.039 Can't wait talk about that? Hello, get into it. 0:01:36.520 --> 0:01:41.000 I stole that that. Amen, all right, peace loves, thank you, 0:01:41.040 --> 0:01:42.720 Thank you, Rahem White. 0:01:43.080 --> 0:01:46.240 I'm TT and I'm Zachiah and from Spotify Studios. This 0:01:46.360 --> 0:01:48.000 is Dope laps ho hope. 0:02:02.360 --> 0:02:06.920 So listening to Raheem's comments, really, you know, that's a 0:02:06.960 --> 0:02:07.760 really big topic. 0:02:07.960 --> 0:02:11.359 It is, and it would be really really hard to 0:02:11.400 --> 0:02:14.160 do an episode that covers everything. 0:02:14.480 --> 0:02:17.160 But I feel like we have the opportunity to kind 0:02:17.160 --> 0:02:19.880 of touch on a little bit of it. It feels really timely, 0:02:20.040 --> 0:02:23.680 especially considering what's been going on with Caster Semenya's case 0:02:23.840 --> 0:02:26.520 with the I double af oh following. 0:02:27.200 --> 0:02:31.120 Yes, it's so crazy to me, that whole situation. 0:02:31.480 --> 0:02:33.240 So let's run down for the people what happened. 0:02:33.320 --> 0:02:36.960 Okay. So, Caster Semenya is a South African Olympic gold 0:02:37.000 --> 0:02:39.120 medalist that competes in track and field. 0:02:39.320 --> 0:02:42.640 Her body naturally produces more testosterone than the average woman, 0:02:43.080 --> 0:02:46.079 and so then the IAF came on the scene saying 0:02:46.960 --> 0:02:49.000 they think this is an advantage for her. 0:02:49.200 --> 0:02:51.560 And she recently challenged the IBAF. 0:02:51.680 --> 0:02:55.799 The i DOUBLEAF is the International Association of Athletics Federation. 0:02:56.080 --> 0:02:58.040 They were founded in nineteen twelve to be the governing 0:02:58.080 --> 0:03:00.400 authority for athletics and that's just a turn and used 0:03:00.400 --> 0:03:02.440 for a track and field specifically, and they make the 0:03:02.520 --> 0:03:06.399 rules about who can and cannot compete in international competitions. 0:03:06.600 --> 0:03:09.000 In twenty eleven, they made a rule that said women 0:03:09.280 --> 0:03:12.960 with a certain level of testosterone are ineligible for competition, 0:03:13.280 --> 0:03:17.240 and Duti Chand, an Indian runner, successfully challenged these regulations 0:03:17.240 --> 0:03:18.320 in twenty fourteen. 0:03:18.680 --> 0:03:22.639 In twenty eighteen, the IBLEAF presented updated regulations and they 0:03:22.680 --> 0:03:27.120 were meant to replace those previous regulations that Chan basically 0:03:27.200 --> 0:03:30.520 knocked out. But Duty was a shorter distance runner, and 0:03:30.560 --> 0:03:33.600 they only changed the rules for those distances, but left 0:03:33.639 --> 0:03:38.040 the testosterone regulations in place for longer distances. 0:03:37.840 --> 0:03:40.040 Right, and that's exactly what cast does. She won the 0:03:40.040 --> 0:03:43.320 women's eight hundred meters gold medal at the last two Olympics. 0:03:43.000 --> 0:03:45.760 So Castro went back to the IAAF and was like, 0:03:46.520 --> 0:03:49.440 what's up? The sain't fair. You need to get rid 0:03:49.480 --> 0:03:52.400 of these rules for all the distances, not just some. 0:03:52.840 --> 0:03:55.240 And Caster has been subject to so many tests over 0:03:55.240 --> 0:03:57.600 her entire professional career, and I'd like to note she 0:03:57.680 --> 0:03:58.560 passed all of them. 0:03:58.640 --> 0:04:01.960 And so this feels like they're moving the goalposts. Imagine 0:04:01.960 --> 0:04:04.480 you've been running your whole life, doing all the right things, 0:04:04.680 --> 0:04:09.400 working hard, and then someone says, oh, you have this 0:04:10.120 --> 0:04:13.800 thing naturally occurring in your body that happens to other people, 0:04:14.600 --> 0:04:18.640 but we're gonna say that you can't compete anymore because 0:04:18.839 --> 0:04:21.400 of that thing. First of all, do you know the 0:04:21.440 --> 0:04:26.400 amount of training and preparation it takes to be an Olympian? 0:04:27.200 --> 0:04:29.919 I don't know why I'm not an Olympian. 0:04:30.400 --> 0:04:31.159 Come listen. 0:04:31.360 --> 0:04:32.520 That's why none of us are. 0:04:33.600 --> 0:04:36.839 This whole thing bothers me because the premise is that 0:04:37.279 --> 0:04:40.520 her hormone levels put her at an advantage, as if 0:04:40.600 --> 0:04:43.000 all these test things and all this stuff disrupting her 0:04:43.040 --> 0:04:46.000 schedule doesn't put her at a disadvantage. And there are 0:04:46.040 --> 0:04:48.839 lots of things that are not hormones, that are not biological, 0:04:49.040 --> 0:04:52.240 that put you at an advantage. Nobody's regulating or normalizing 0:04:52.279 --> 0:04:54.479 the amount of training, the amount of resources, the amount 0:04:54.520 --> 0:04:58.000 of nutrition prep plans, the amount of exercise. So why 0:04:58.040 --> 0:05:00.400 are you picking this one thing and saying that has 0:05:00.440 --> 0:05:02.240 to be the same. Everything else can be variable, but 0:05:02.320 --> 0:05:04.600 that has to be the same. That's crazy to me. 0:05:04.640 --> 0:05:05.159 It's weird. 0:05:05.360 --> 0:05:08.080 So we wanted to ask kind of what's the science 0:05:08.160 --> 0:05:10.800 behind this, what's going on with caster Somenia's case, right, 0:05:10.839 --> 0:05:13.920 because it feels like everything that's going on with it 0:05:14.400 --> 0:05:17.400 in the IBAF is more reactionary. Who are the scientists 0:05:17.400 --> 0:05:19.320 for the I double AF, That's what I want to know. 0:05:19.480 --> 0:05:22.880 What group of scientists came to the conclusion are there 0:05:22.960 --> 0:05:24.680 scientists that work at the IAF. 0:05:24.960 --> 0:05:28.599 Show yourself, which among you has a doctorate? Show yourself 0:05:28.640 --> 0:05:30.960 and show your lab notebook. We want to see exactly 0:05:31.160 --> 0:05:34.280 even that thing better be clean. As we're talking through this, 0:05:34.279 --> 0:05:38.559 this feels like one tiny piece of the bigger pie 0:05:39.040 --> 0:05:43.840 of the conversation about regulating and controlling women's bodies right 0:05:45.080 --> 0:05:48.200 It's all over social media right now. Honestly, the policing 0:05:48.240 --> 0:05:50.880 of women's bodies is something that is at the forefront 0:05:50.920 --> 0:05:53.400 of everybody's minds because the people who are doing the 0:05:53.440 --> 0:05:56.600 policing are men. And then the people are being policed 0:05:56.640 --> 0:05:57.120 are the women. 0:05:57.360 --> 0:05:59.719 So let's get into the recitation. What do we know? 0:06:00.000 --> 0:06:01.360 Do you have a couple of things that we want 0:06:01.400 --> 0:06:03.960 to address here. First we need to lay down the law. 0:06:04.320 --> 0:06:06.839 We got to bring y'all everybody up to speed because 0:06:06.880 --> 0:06:11.799 some of y'all Fox News don't understand the difference between sex. 0:06:12.279 --> 0:06:18.240 So that's biological sex and gender identity and sexual preference. 0:06:18.279 --> 0:06:20.039 Some of y'all don't understand the difference between them. But 0:06:20.080 --> 0:06:22.480 that's okay, because we're going to walk you through it. 0:06:23.000 --> 0:06:24.920 We know sex and gender are not the same thing. 0:06:24.960 --> 0:06:27.560 Now people may use them interchangeably, but they are not 0:06:27.680 --> 0:06:31.039 the same thing. We also know that sex, in the 0:06:31.080 --> 0:06:35.520 traditional way it is used refers to the presentation of 0:06:35.560 --> 0:06:40.640 your primary sexual characters. If y'all remember that from the pilot. Okay, 0:06:41.040 --> 0:06:46.400 that is, do you biologically appear male or female? And 0:06:46.520 --> 0:06:50.560 even that is a really crude classification because we know 0:06:50.640 --> 0:06:54.320 that sometimes there's some ambiguous external features when it comes 0:06:54.360 --> 0:06:59.760 to biological assignment of sex. Gender is your psychological feeling 0:06:59.800 --> 0:07:03.919 of maleness or femaleness. So when we talk about someone's 0:07:04.240 --> 0:07:08.640 gender identity or gender expression, right, we say someone is 0:07:08.680 --> 0:07:13.680 cis gendered. CIS as in the same when how they 0:07:13.720 --> 0:07:18.760 feel psychologically about themselves or they feel let's say I 0:07:18.760 --> 0:07:21.960 feel really female and biologically I present as female. That 0:07:22.040 --> 0:07:23.800 is cis. Those two things are the same. 0:07:24.040 --> 0:07:27.840 So when you are biologically female and when your brain 0:07:28.520 --> 0:07:31.240 identifies your being as female. 0:07:31.000 --> 0:07:36.520 Yes, trans which means opposite or different is when someone 0:07:36.960 --> 0:07:42.360 biologically presents as female and psychologically identifies as male, or 0:07:42.360 --> 0:07:47.000 biologically presents as male and psychologically identifies as female. 0:07:47.120 --> 0:07:49.960 And then there are people who are a gender, which 0:07:50.120 --> 0:07:53.960 means that regardless of what their biology says, they don't 0:07:54.000 --> 0:07:58.880 feel a majority pull towards one gender or the other. 0:07:59.000 --> 0:08:01.760 So, now that we've gone through through biological sex and gender, 0:08:01.800 --> 0:08:03.880 we want to point out that these things have nothing 0:08:03.920 --> 0:08:05.440 to do with sexual orientation. 0:08:05.600 --> 0:08:09.840 Sexual orientation has nothing to do with your sex or 0:08:09.880 --> 0:08:12.400 your gender, so we're not talking about that in this episode. 0:08:12.440 --> 0:08:14.200 So, now that we've leveled the play and field, here 0:08:14.200 --> 0:08:16.000 are some of our questions. So we're going to talk 0:08:16.000 --> 0:08:18.520 about some of the hormones. What is testosterone. We know 0:08:18.560 --> 0:08:20.320 it's a hormone, but what does it have to do 0:08:20.360 --> 0:08:23.320 with your ability to perform as an athlete? 0:08:23.600 --> 0:08:26.720 Does testosterone give you a competitive edge, like if you 0:08:26.800 --> 0:08:27.520 have more of it. 0:08:27.760 --> 0:08:30.040 Are there other hormones that we should be considering or 0:08:30.120 --> 0:08:31.920 is testosterone the only one that matters. 0:08:32.080 --> 0:08:36.280 I want to know what is the average testosterone level 0:08:36.320 --> 0:08:42.240 for a woman and who determined the baseline in the 0:08:42.280 --> 0:08:47.520 IAF and what are the effects of having a higher 0:08:47.559 --> 0:08:48.679 testosterone level. 0:08:49.000 --> 0:08:50.800 So I think that's a good starting ground for us. 0:08:51.160 --> 0:08:54.280 Very good, let's dig in for today's dissection. We've invited 0:08:54.320 --> 0:08:55.439 doctor Anthony Hackney. 0:08:55.520 --> 0:08:58.800 I'm doctor Anthony Hackney of the University of North Carolina 0:08:58.840 --> 0:09:03.400 at Chapel Hill, a professor of Exercise Physiology and Nutrition 0:09:03.600 --> 0:09:06.080 in the Department of Exercise and Supports Science. 0:09:06.440 --> 0:09:09.160 Doctor Hackney served as a scientific expert on the Castors 0:09:09.200 --> 0:09:12.480 to Menu case against the IAAF, and he testified several 0:09:12.520 --> 0:09:13.480 times on her behalf. 0:09:13.600 --> 0:09:15.840 We'll talk more about Caster's case later in the show, 0:09:15.880 --> 0:09:17.680 but first, let's talk about hormones. 0:09:17.760 --> 0:09:20.400 We know that testosterone is a hormone, but what are 0:09:20.760 --> 0:09:22.600 hormones like on the Grand scheme. 0:09:23.120 --> 0:09:26.520 Hormones are chemical signals that are secreted into your blood 0:09:26.600 --> 0:09:30.959 or other fluids in the body, and they just act 0:09:31.240 --> 0:09:34.079 on other cells. So you have other cells that may 0:09:34.080 --> 0:09:37.360 have a receptor and they get that signal. So hormones 0:09:37.400 --> 0:09:41.160 are often considered like the long distance signal, so they 0:09:41.200 --> 0:09:44.200 can travel throughout the bloodstream. 0:09:43.679 --> 0:09:46.960 And then depending on what type of hormony it is, 0:09:47.000 --> 0:09:48.319 it has a specific function. 0:09:48.440 --> 0:09:51.400 Yeah. A hormone is a broad term for any kind 0:09:51.400 --> 0:09:53.640 of chemical signal that acts on another cell. 0:09:54.360 --> 0:09:57.880 Okay, So where are they made? Where do they come from? 0:09:58.360 --> 0:10:00.600 Hormones are made in cells, and those tend to be 0:10:00.600 --> 0:10:04.720 grouped in different glands. Right. So thyroid that's a gland 0:10:04.800 --> 0:10:11.440 that makes hormones, the pituitary gland, testes, ovaries, adrenal glands. 0:10:11.320 --> 0:10:13.760 And so all of those glands they make up your 0:10:13.960 --> 0:10:15.000 endocrine system, right. 0:10:15.160 --> 0:10:18.480 Yeah, those glands and cells that secrete hormones make up 0:10:18.520 --> 0:10:21.240 your indocrine system. Okay, and so the study of those 0:10:21.240 --> 0:10:26.080 hormones and those glands is into chronology. So hormones are 0:10:27.440 --> 0:10:31.120 basically a communication network. They kind of keep your body 0:10:31.160 --> 0:10:33.880 at its physiological norm. So people don't think of it often, 0:10:33.880 --> 0:10:37.000 but insulin is a hormone, oh right, So keeping your 0:10:37.000 --> 0:10:41.000 gluclose level in a range that is physiologically is favorable. Right. 0:10:41.440 --> 0:10:45.080 And so hormones, because they both regulate kind of or 0:10:45.160 --> 0:10:48.520 keep you balanced physiologically as a full adult, but they're 0:10:48.520 --> 0:10:51.920 also involved in the development of you as an adult. 0:10:51.920 --> 0:10:55.520 So hormones change as you grow through puberty. That's a 0:10:55.800 --> 0:10:58.240 that's a stage that we really know or people will 0:10:58.280 --> 0:11:00.319 often say, like, oh, it's hormones and stuff. 0:11:00.160 --> 0:11:02.520 Right, And so your endocrine system when you're at that 0:11:02.679 --> 0:11:04.880 age is like pumping out all kinds of stuff. It's like, 0:11:04.880 --> 0:11:10.800 all right, it's not for you to grow up. You're 0:11:10.840 --> 0:11:12.480 gonna hate your mom for about a year. 0:11:12.800 --> 0:11:15.360 That is not exactly how I would have described it, 0:11:15.400 --> 0:11:23.480 but thank you you guys wan TC teaching your kids biology. 0:11:23.559 --> 0:11:26.760 I love it. So hormones play a role even in 0:11:26.840 --> 0:11:29.320 early stages of development, and it also has a role 0:11:29.360 --> 0:11:31.000 in biological sex. 0:11:30.960 --> 0:11:33.120 And doctor Hackney says that there are three specific types 0:11:33.160 --> 0:11:39.000 of hormones that are critical in determining biological sex. It's testosterone, estrogen, 0:11:39.080 --> 0:11:39.960 and progesterone. 0:11:40.040 --> 0:11:43.240 People sometimes think of testosterone as the male hormone and 0:11:43.400 --> 0:11:46.360 estrogen as the female hormone, but we all actually have 0:11:46.480 --> 0:11:46.880 all three. 0:11:47.000 --> 0:11:49.600 But what we find is when we're looking at males 0:11:49.679 --> 0:11:53.800 as females, the proportionality the amount of each of those 0:11:53.840 --> 0:11:55.720 hormones is quite different. 0:11:56.240 --> 0:11:59.560 Typically, men have a lot of testosterone and much smaller 0:11:59.559 --> 0:12:04.439 amounts of estrogen and progesterone, while most women have smaller 0:12:04.480 --> 0:12:09.160 amounts of testosterone and much greater amounts of estrogen and progesterone. 0:12:09.200 --> 0:12:12.320 Let's look at testosterone levels specifically, since that was the 0:12:12.360 --> 0:12:15.839 focus of cast Seminius case. What are the average levels 0:12:15.840 --> 0:12:17.880 of testosterone for both men and women. 0:12:18.040 --> 0:12:21.320 Men are going to have testosterone that's about ten to 0:12:21.360 --> 0:12:27.160 thirty nanimals per leader. Women are going to have testosterone 0:12:27.160 --> 0:12:32.240 that's going down to zero to about ten nanimals per lider. 0:12:32.520 --> 0:12:35.080 So what makes testosterone so special? 0:12:35.320 --> 0:12:42.720 Testosterone has both anabolic and androgenic properties testosterones. 0:12:42.800 --> 0:12:46.079 Androgenic properties means that it contributes to the development of 0:12:46.120 --> 0:12:50.040 male characteristics, particularly around puberty. So that's deep voice a 0:12:50.080 --> 0:12:52.160 lot of body hair, you know, things that we typically 0:12:52.200 --> 0:12:53.480 associate with b and male And. 0:12:53.440 --> 0:12:56.679 When we talk about anabolic we're talking about the ability 0:12:56.840 --> 0:13:01.840 to influence protein synthesis. And when we think of protein synthesis, 0:13:01.880 --> 0:13:05.200 we tend to think of muscle tissue. And what you 0:13:05.280 --> 0:13:09.520 find is in the presence of testosterone, muscle will grow 0:13:09.760 --> 0:13:13.240 and will be able to add more muscle to the body. 0:13:13.320 --> 0:13:16.280 This helps explain why everyone is talking so much about 0:13:16.360 --> 0:13:20.640 testosterone as an indicator for maleness in sports as opposed 0:13:20.640 --> 0:13:24.680 to talking about estrogen and progesterone, because estrogen and progesterone 0:13:24.880 --> 0:13:28.040 don't contribute as much to what we see as stereotypically 0:13:28.080 --> 0:13:29.240 athletic functions. 0:13:29.280 --> 0:13:34.360 But having said that, just because you have more testosterone 0:13:34.400 --> 0:13:38.120 and you might have more muscle mass is not automatically 0:13:38.200 --> 0:13:43.479 something that results in you having an enhance sporting performance. 0:13:43.640 --> 0:13:46.520 Folks think that having higher testosterone levels means that you're 0:13:46.559 --> 0:13:49.800 automatically going to be the Hulk or the Juggernaut, but not. 0:13:50.120 --> 0:13:52.880 And the other point I want to make is sometimes 0:13:52.920 --> 0:13:57.800 people again tend to view this in a very simplistic fashion. 0:13:58.280 --> 0:14:00.320 What you find is they tend to think of it 0:14:00.360 --> 0:14:04.760 as linear and proportional. Oh, if I have twice the testosterone, 0:14:04.840 --> 0:14:07.439 I have the capacity to have twice the muscle, therefore 0:14:07.480 --> 0:14:11.280 twice the strength, twice the power output. And it's not 0:14:11.559 --> 0:14:14.640 a linear relationship, it's not proportional. 0:14:14.800 --> 0:14:18.640 Testostphone is not the defining factor of maleness or athleticism. 0:14:18.720 --> 0:14:21.960 If we're regulating testosterone, we should probably be regulating some 0:14:22.000 --> 0:14:25.520 other genetic and biological factors that could affect athletic performance. 0:14:25.720 --> 0:14:28.160 So if you think about it, like we should probably 0:14:28.200 --> 0:14:31.440 be talking about Michael Phelps, right because Michael Phelps, who 0:14:31.480 --> 0:14:33.960 we all know, is a world class swimmer. You know, 0:14:34.040 --> 0:14:36.960 he's won a bunch of gold medals, but he also 0:14:37.400 --> 0:14:42.240 is known to produce way less lactic acid than the 0:14:42.320 --> 0:14:45.600 average man. And lactic acid you know when they say 0:14:45.600 --> 0:14:48.200 feel to burn when you're working out, that's what the. 0:14:48.240 --> 0:14:51.240 Lactic acid is and what you're feeling. And since he 0:14:51.280 --> 0:14:54.560 doesn't produce as much, he is able to recover from 0:14:54.600 --> 0:14:58.800 workouts way faster than his other male competitors. 0:14:58.280 --> 0:14:59.880 Then you have to think, well, why is it lactic 0:15:00.040 --> 0:15:05.080 aid production regulated? It sounds like he has an unfair advantage. Now, hmmm, interesting, 0:15:05.400 --> 0:15:08.800 very interesting, Simps Tea. If I do say so myself, 0:15:10.160 --> 0:15:13.800 I'll have conference with this tea. So we're gonna take 0:15:13.840 --> 0:15:15.400 a quick break and when we come back, we're going 0:15:15.480 --> 0:15:18.360 to talk more about Caster Semenya's case against the IUBLEAF 0:15:18.800 --> 0:15:33.240 and then what her options are in this scenario. 0:15:33.680 --> 0:15:36.120 And we're back, and now we're going to dive into 0:15:36.160 --> 0:15:38.680 the Caster se Mena case in more detail. 0:15:39.240 --> 0:15:43.280 What happened The IBLEAF, which is in charge of track 0:15:43.360 --> 0:15:46.400 and field or athletics as it's known through most of 0:15:46.400 --> 0:15:49.240 the rest of the world. Have tried to make certain 0:15:49.360 --> 0:15:53.720 that the playing field is fair and so that we 0:15:53.840 --> 0:15:58.480 have men competing against men, women competing against women. So 0:15:58.520 --> 0:16:01.440 they came up with this materia in the last few 0:16:01.520 --> 0:16:06.400 years of X amount of testosterone would designate someone as 0:16:06.480 --> 0:16:10.240 being a man. Below x amount of testosterone would be 0:16:11.320 --> 0:16:13.400 as someone designated as a woman. 0:16:13.520 --> 0:16:16.560 So what is the IUBLEAF defined criteria for a man 0:16:16.640 --> 0:16:17.240 and a woman. 0:16:17.600 --> 0:16:23.359 The original value that they set for male versus female, 0:16:23.680 --> 0:16:27.800 the cut point was a unit of ten animals per leader. 0:16:28.400 --> 0:16:31.600 If you were below ten, you're a woman. If you 0:16:31.640 --> 0:16:32.920 were above ten a man. 0:16:33.120 --> 0:16:35.920 Just as a reminder, we know that women have testosterone 0:16:36.000 --> 0:16:38.720 levels from zero to ten and men have testosterone levels 0:16:38.720 --> 0:16:42.359 from ten to thirty. So the IUBLEAF redid their analysis 0:16:42.360 --> 0:16:44.960 and said, hm, ten's too high, let's make it five 0:16:45.000 --> 0:16:45.440 for women. 0:16:45.760 --> 0:16:49.920 So now the criteria is, according to the IUBLEAF, if 0:16:49.960 --> 0:16:55.640 you are at five to zero nanimals per leader of testosterone, 0:16:55.680 --> 0:16:59.440 you are a woman. If you're ten to thirty, you're 0:16:59.480 --> 0:17:00.000 a man. 0:17:00.240 --> 0:17:02.080 How are they even coming up with these numbers? 0:17:02.160 --> 0:17:04.280 Right? That's half the range, half the known range. You 0:17:04.480 --> 0:17:07.160 know for a fact, right that women fall between zero 0:17:07.160 --> 0:17:09.520 and ten, and you're just like five. I've decided and 0:17:09.680 --> 0:17:12.600 noticed that the range for women that the IAAF is 0:17:12.880 --> 0:17:15.800 setting is from zero to five, and the men is 0:17:15.840 --> 0:17:19.480 from ten to thirty. And so now you're saying five 0:17:19.560 --> 0:17:22.240 and above. Even though our known range for men was 0:17:22.240 --> 0:17:24.840 ten to thirty, you're saying five and above. Now you're 0:17:25.040 --> 0:17:26.720 a man. That's crazy. 0:17:26.840 --> 0:17:30.840 The way they came up with this is, as most 0:17:30.840 --> 0:17:34.320 people were aware, at the very high level of sports, 0:17:34.560 --> 0:17:39.920 there is testing for doping of athletes. Well, these doping 0:17:40.160 --> 0:17:44.680 tests have involved many times collecting urine samples but also 0:17:44.960 --> 0:17:50.960 blood samples, and so the IAAF, in concert with some 0:17:51.040 --> 0:17:54.879 of the doping control agencies, went back into their data 0:17:54.920 --> 0:17:58.760 files and came up with their standards based upon that. 0:17:59.040 --> 0:18:02.359 It's hard for me a scenario where you say, I 0:18:02.440 --> 0:18:05.359 get more data, so now I have fewer outliers. What 0:18:06.040 --> 0:18:06.400 now I. 0:18:06.400 --> 0:18:09.520 Narrow the range. It doesn't make sense. If you're seeing 0:18:09.520 --> 0:18:12.440 that women fall within this range from zero to ten, 0:18:12.800 --> 0:18:14.399 why would you then narrow it. 0:18:14.720 --> 0:18:17.720 And say, actually, I changed my mind, turned to CUSHA 0:18:17.760 --> 0:18:22.560 goal change your mind from now change my mind. Oh 0:18:22.600 --> 0:18:23.600 we are sharp. 0:18:23.800 --> 0:18:24.400 That's fine. 0:18:26.119 --> 0:18:29.600 So we know now in Castor's case that the IAAF 0:18:29.680 --> 0:18:32.000 is saying her testosterone levels are too high. So she 0:18:32.040 --> 0:18:35.720 has three options. She can stop competing all together, compete 0:18:35.760 --> 0:18:39.080 with men, or lower her hormone levels. And if she 0:18:39.119 --> 0:18:42.040 wants to lower her hormone levels, she has two options. 0:18:42.400 --> 0:18:46.359 That's to have some type of hormone surgery or to 0:18:46.440 --> 0:18:47.760 take hormone suppressants. 0:18:47.920 --> 0:18:49.880 And the way that these suppressants work is that they 0:18:49.920 --> 0:18:53.359 target the gonads. Yes, women have gonads, it's your ovaries 0:18:53.800 --> 0:18:56.879 or the adrenal glands, and these suppressants make them stop 0:18:56.920 --> 0:19:01.040 producing or greatly decrease the amount of testoone that's produced. 0:19:01.200 --> 0:19:07.640 The problem you run into is when you start suppressing intocrenfunction, 0:19:08.400 --> 0:19:11.000 there is always going to be a cascade of some 0:19:11.200 --> 0:19:13.800 side effects. And one of the side effects in the 0:19:13.840 --> 0:19:17.639 context of these drugs is it can make the athlete 0:19:17.920 --> 0:19:23.320 or any individual feel very lethargic, very tired. They can 0:19:23.359 --> 0:19:27.879 experience some aspects of mood swings that relate to their motivation. 0:19:28.080 --> 0:19:29.960 Turn that ball around, we want to see the fine print. 0:19:30.040 --> 0:19:33.280 What are the nutrition facts on that. Because intestinserone is 0:19:33.280 --> 0:19:36.000 involved in other pathways with other hormone. 0:19:35.640 --> 0:19:38.440 Right, like on those commercials for any drug when it's 0:19:38.440 --> 0:19:41.119 like this may cost diarrhea, consumpation, and you may want 0:19:41.160 --> 0:19:42.000 to cut off your left arm. 0:19:42.080 --> 0:19:45.440 And so you find that the athlete who is on 0:19:45.480 --> 0:19:50.359 this treatment may therefore not be able to train as 0:19:50.640 --> 0:19:53.159 well because they don't feel well, they may not be 0:19:53.200 --> 0:19:57.040 as motivated, and training is a critical thing for enhancing 0:19:57.119 --> 0:19:58.119 sports performance. 0:19:58.240 --> 0:20:00.840 So basically they're setting these women up to how are 0:20:00.880 --> 0:20:03.600 you supposed to be an elite athlete if you don't 0:20:03.640 --> 0:20:07.600 even have the motivation or the energy to train? That 0:20:07.640 --> 0:20:12.720 turns castas and mena into T T. Shadia couch potato extraordinaire. 0:20:13.080 --> 0:20:15.760 So what about men? What if we have a man 0:20:15.800 --> 0:20:18.520 that has a high level of testosterone? Is anybody checking this? 0:20:19.119 --> 0:20:21.439 Because that range is ten to thirty that's a pretty 0:20:21.440 --> 0:20:24.240 big range. So are certain men gonna have to take 0:20:24.280 --> 0:20:26.560 hormone suppressants if we flip it on his head? What 0:20:26.640 --> 0:20:29.720 about men that have low levels of testosterone? Are they 0:20:29.800 --> 0:20:32.480 now going to to be able to take hormones? Right? 0:20:32.600 --> 0:20:36.520 Because doctor Hackney told us about an actual scenario where 0:20:36.640 --> 0:20:39.560 men who exercise a lot over a long period of time, 0:20:40.320 --> 0:20:45.920 they experience this thing called hypogonadism which causes their testosterone 0:20:45.960 --> 0:20:48.960 level to drop, so you could be an elite athlete 0:20:48.960 --> 0:20:52.080 and then all of a sudden everything goes pear shape. 0:20:52.119 --> 0:20:56.159 One of the questions when we were at the actual 0:20:56.280 --> 0:21:01.680 court of arbitration for sport I brought up was are 0:21:01.720 --> 0:21:04.479 we going to next move to those men who have 0:21:04.720 --> 0:21:09.119 low testosterone and give them supplementation so that we can 0:21:09.160 --> 0:21:13.440 classify them as a man. And that question was very 0:21:13.480 --> 0:21:18.000 quickly shut down by the judges and the other legal 0:21:18.040 --> 0:21:21.359 team saying, that's not the question we're dealing with. But 0:21:21.560 --> 0:21:25.119 might we see that as a future legal argument that 0:21:25.160 --> 0:21:28.160 someone's going to bring. I don't know, but I would 0:21:28.160 --> 0:21:28.960 not be surprised. 0:21:29.119 --> 0:21:30.720 So where do we go from here? I mean, is 0:21:30.760 --> 0:21:34.280 there a future where even the young tykes in the 0:21:34.320 --> 0:21:37.200 pee wee league and the AAU basketball team, where they're 0:21:37.240 --> 0:21:40.920 now doing hormone testing right and disqualifying all of these 0:21:40.920 --> 0:21:43.520 people from certain sports because or telling them they have 0:21:43.600 --> 0:21:48.160 to compete in a sport that is for a different sex. Yeah, 0:21:48.240 --> 0:21:49.520 Like what's next? 0:21:49.880 --> 0:21:52.600 I don't know. And what doctor Hackney is saying is 0:21:52.600 --> 0:21:55.920 that it's this, in his opinion, is going to lead 0:21:56.000 --> 0:21:57.399 to this slippery slope. 0:21:57.440 --> 0:22:04.800 I'm speaking opinion here. My fear here is that, to 0:22:04.920 --> 0:22:08.440