1
00:00:00,360 --> 00:00:03,720
Speaker 1: You are the only friend that I have that insists

2
00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:08,240
Speaker 1: on FaceTime calls, not just a phone call with voice

3
00:00:08,360 --> 00:00:11,440
Speaker 1: or a text message. You want to see my eyeballs.

4
00:00:11,560 --> 00:00:13,480
Speaker 2: That's right. That means I'm the only friend that really

5
00:00:13,560 --> 00:00:14,400
Speaker 2: cares about you.

6
00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:16,560
Speaker 1: Is that what that means?

7
00:00:16,640 --> 00:00:16,920
Speaker 3: Yeah?

8
00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:18,799
Speaker 2: Other people are saying, hey, I only want you in

9
00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:20,680
Speaker 2: this one dimension. I just want your voice. I'm saying, no,

10
00:00:20,720 --> 00:00:24,120
Speaker 2: I want your voice, your facial expressions, your hand gestures, context.

11
00:00:24,120 --> 00:00:26,040
Speaker 2: I want to see what's going on around you. Who

12
00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:27,120
Speaker 2: else is there? Show me?

13
00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:30,920
Speaker 1: And if you don't answer, as the kids FaceTime call,

14
00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:32,360
Speaker 1: I'm calling again.

15
00:00:34,280 --> 00:00:34,920
Speaker 2: What do you mean?

16
00:00:35,240 --> 00:00:37,159
Speaker 1: It's like, oh, maybe she missed it. Let me give

17
00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:39,400
Speaker 1: her some time to get ready. Maybe she didn't have reception.

18
00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:42,360
Speaker 2: All of that being said, we love getting calls from y'all.

19
00:00:42,520 --> 00:00:45,159
Speaker 1: Yeah. Sometimes y'all call just to say hi or to

20
00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:46,400
Speaker 1: tell us how much you like the show.

21
00:00:46,479 --> 00:00:48,880
Speaker 2: And sometimes y'all call to give us suggestions for episodes.

22
00:00:49,040 --> 00:00:51,519
Speaker 1: One of our new friends, Rockie and White, call to

23
00:00:51,560 --> 00:00:54,480
Speaker 1: suggest an episode topic that we really feel like is

24
00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:56,400
Speaker 1: a major part of this episode.

25
00:00:56,640 --> 00:00:57,480
Speaker 2: Peace Loves.

26
00:00:57,680 --> 00:01:01,560
Speaker 3: I am in love with your podcasts, like y'all give

27
00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:02,480
Speaker 3: me so much.

28
00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:03,560
Speaker 2: Damn life.

29
00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:07,600
Speaker 3: Thank you. I know that you said you are open

30
00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:14,200
Speaker 3: to topic suggestions, and I am really interested. And you

31
00:01:14,240 --> 00:01:20,480
Speaker 3: are having a discussion about gender and or sex and

32
00:01:20,600 --> 00:01:24,559
Speaker 3: the way that it plays out, like with with people

33
00:01:24,600 --> 00:01:30,640
Speaker 3: being trans or people truly embodying themselves as the gender,

34
00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:33,160
Speaker 3: as the sex as themselves.

35
00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:36,039
Speaker 2: Can't wait talk about that? Hello, get into it.

36
00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:41,000
Speaker 3: I stole that that. Amen, all right, peace loves, thank you,

37
00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:42,720
Speaker 3: Thank you, Rahem White.

38
00:01:43,080 --> 00:01:46,240
Speaker 1: I'm TT and I'm Zachiah and from Spotify Studios. This

39
00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:48,000
Speaker 1: is Dope laps ho hope.

40
00:02:02,360 --> 00:02:06,920
Speaker 2: So listening to Raheem's comments, really, you know, that's a

41
00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:07,760
Speaker 2: really big topic.

42
00:02:07,960 --> 00:02:11,359
Speaker 1: It is, and it would be really really hard to

43
00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:14,160
Speaker 1: do an episode that covers everything.

44
00:02:14,480 --> 00:02:17,160
Speaker 2: But I feel like we have the opportunity to kind

45
00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:19,880
Speaker 2: of touch on a little bit of it. It feels really timely,

46
00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:23,680
Speaker 2: especially considering what's been going on with Caster Semenya's case

47
00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:26,520
Speaker 2: with the I double af oh following.

48
00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:31,120
Speaker 1: Yes, it's so crazy to me, that whole situation.

49
00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:33,240
Speaker 2: So let's run down for the people what happened.

50
00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:36,960
Speaker 1: Okay. So, Caster Semenya is a South African Olympic gold

51
00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:39,120
Speaker 1: medalist that competes in track and field.

52
00:02:39,320 --> 00:02:42,640
Speaker 2: Her body naturally produces more testosterone than the average woman,

53
00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:46,079
Speaker 2: and so then the IAF came on the scene saying

54
00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:49,000
Speaker 2: they think this is an advantage for her.

55
00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:51,560
Speaker 1: And she recently challenged the IBAF.

56
00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:55,799
Speaker 2: The i DOUBLEAF is the International Association of Athletics Federation.

57
00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:58,040
Speaker 2: They were founded in nineteen twelve to be the governing

58
00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:00,400
Speaker 2: authority for athletics and that's just a turn and used

59
00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:02,440
Speaker 2: for a track and field specifically, and they make the

60
00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:06,399
Speaker 2: rules about who can and cannot compete in international competitions.

61
00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:09,000
Speaker 2: In twenty eleven, they made a rule that said women

62
00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:12,960
Speaker 2: with a certain level of testosterone are ineligible for competition,

63
00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:17,240
Speaker 2: and Duti Chand, an Indian runner, successfully challenged these regulations

64
00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:18,320
Speaker 2: in twenty fourteen.

65
00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:22,639
Speaker 1: In twenty eighteen, the IBLEAF presented updated regulations and they

66
00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:27,120
Speaker 1: were meant to replace those previous regulations that Chan basically

67
00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:30,520
Speaker 1: knocked out. But Duty was a shorter distance runner, and

68
00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:33,600
Speaker 1: they only changed the rules for those distances, but left

69
00:03:33,639 --> 00:03:38,040
Speaker 1: the testosterone regulations in place for longer distances.

70
00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:40,040
Speaker 2: Right, and that's exactly what cast does. She won the

71
00:03:40,040 --> 00:03:43,320
Speaker 2: women's eight hundred meters gold medal at the last two Olympics.

72
00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:45,760
Speaker 1: So Castro went back to the IAAF and was like,

73
00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:49,440
Speaker 1: what's up? The sain't fair. You need to get rid

74
00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:52,400
Speaker 1: of these rules for all the distances, not just some.

75
00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:55,240
Speaker 2: And Caster has been subject to so many tests over

76
00:03:55,240 --> 00:03:57,600
Speaker 2: her entire professional career, and I'd like to note she

77
00:03:57,680 --> 00:03:58,560
Speaker 2: passed all of them.

78
00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:01,960
Speaker 1: And so this feels like they're moving the goalposts. Imagine

79
00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:04,480
Speaker 1: you've been running your whole life, doing all the right things,

80
00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:09,400
Speaker 1: working hard, and then someone says, oh, you have this

81
00:04:10,120 --> 00:04:13,800
Speaker 1: thing naturally occurring in your body that happens to other people,

82
00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:18,640
Speaker 1: but we're gonna say that you can't compete anymore because

83
00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:21,400
Speaker 1: of that thing. First of all, do you know the

84
00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:26,400
Speaker 1: amount of training and preparation it takes to be an Olympian?

85
00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:29,919
Speaker 1: I don't know why I'm not an Olympian.

86
00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:31,159
Speaker 2: Come listen.

87
00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:32,520
Speaker 1: That's why none of us are.

88
00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:36,839
Speaker 2: This whole thing bothers me because the premise is that

89
00:04:37,279 --> 00:04:40,520
Speaker 2: her hormone levels put her at an advantage, as if

90
00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:43,000
Speaker 2: all these test things and all this stuff disrupting her

91
00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:46,000
Speaker 2: schedule doesn't put her at a disadvantage. And there are

92
00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:48,839
Speaker 2: lots of things that are not hormones, that are not biological,

93
00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:52,240
Speaker 2: that put you at an advantage. Nobody's regulating or normalizing

94
00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:54,479
Speaker 2: the amount of training, the amount of resources, the amount

95
00:04:54,520 --> 00:04:58,000
Speaker 2: of nutrition prep plans, the amount of exercise. So why

96
00:04:58,040 --> 00:05:00,400
Speaker 2: are you picking this one thing and saying that has

97
00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:02,240
Speaker 2: to be the same. Everything else can be variable, but

98
00:05:02,320 --> 00:05:04,600
Speaker 2: that has to be the same. That's crazy to me.

99
00:05:04,640 --> 00:05:05,159
Speaker 1: It's weird.

100
00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:08,080
Speaker 2: So we wanted to ask kind of what's the science

101
00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:10,800
Speaker 2: behind this, what's going on with caster Somenia's case, right,

102
00:05:10,839 --> 00:05:13,920
Speaker 2: because it feels like everything that's going on with it

103
00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:17,400
Speaker 2: in the IBAF is more reactionary. Who are the scientists

104
00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:19,320
Speaker 2: for the I double AF, That's what I want to know.

105
00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:22,880
Speaker 1: What group of scientists came to the conclusion are there

106
00:05:22,960 --> 00:05:24,680
Speaker 1: scientists that work at the IAF.

107
00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:28,599
Speaker 2: Show yourself, which among you has a doctorate? Show yourself

108
00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:30,960
Speaker 2: and show your lab notebook. We want to see exactly

109
00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:34,280
Speaker 2: even that thing better be clean. As we're talking through this,

110
00:05:34,279 --> 00:05:38,559
Speaker 2: this feels like one tiny piece of the bigger pie

111
00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:43,840
Speaker 2: of the conversation about regulating and controlling women's bodies right

112
00:05:45,080 --> 00:05:48,200
Speaker 2: It's all over social media right now. Honestly, the policing

113
00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:50,880
Speaker 2: of women's bodies is something that is at the forefront

114
00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:53,400
Speaker 2: of everybody's minds because the people who are doing the

115
00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:56,600
Speaker 2: policing are men. And then the people are being policed

116
00:05:56,640 --> 00:05:57,120
Speaker 2: are the women.

117
00:05:57,360 --> 00:05:59,719
Speaker 1: So let's get into the recitation. What do we know?

118
00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:01,360
Speaker 2: Do you have a couple of things that we want

119
00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:03,960
Speaker 2: to address here. First we need to lay down the law.

120
00:06:04,320 --> 00:06:06,839
Speaker 2: We got to bring y'all everybody up to speed because

121
00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:11,799
Speaker 2: some of y'all Fox News don't understand the difference between sex.

122
00:06:12,279 --> 00:06:18,240
Speaker 2: So that's biological sex and gender identity and sexual preference.

123
00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:20,039
Speaker 2: Some of y'all don't understand the difference between them. But

124
00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:22,480
Speaker 2: that's okay, because we're going to walk you through it.

125
00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:24,920
Speaker 2: We know sex and gender are not the same thing.

126
00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:27,560
Speaker 2: Now people may use them interchangeably, but they are not

127
00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:31,039
Speaker 2: the same thing. We also know that sex, in the

128
00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:35,520
Speaker 2: traditional way it is used refers to the presentation of

129
00:06:35,560 --> 00:06:40,640
Speaker 2: your primary sexual characters. If y'all remember that from the pilot. Okay,

130
00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:46,400
Speaker 2: that is, do you biologically appear male or female? And

131
00:06:46,520 --> 00:06:50,560
Speaker 2: even that is a really crude classification because we know

132
00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:54,320
Speaker 2: that sometimes there's some ambiguous external features when it comes

133
00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:59,760
Speaker 2: to biological assignment of sex. Gender is your psychological feeling

134
00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:03,919
Speaker 2: of maleness or femaleness. So when we talk about someone's

135
00:07:04,240 --> 00:07:08,640
Speaker 2: gender identity or gender expression, right, we say someone is

136
00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:13,680
Speaker 2: cis gendered. CIS as in the same when how they

137
00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:18,760
Speaker 2: feel psychologically about themselves or they feel let's say I

138
00:07:18,760 --> 00:07:21,960
Speaker 2: feel really female and biologically I present as female. That

139
00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:23,800
Speaker 2: is cis. Those two things are the same.

140
00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:27,840
Speaker 1: So when you are biologically female and when your brain

141
00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:31,240
Speaker 1: identifies your being as female.

142
00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:36,520
Speaker 2: Yes, trans which means opposite or different is when someone

143
00:07:36,960 --> 00:07:42,360
Speaker 2: biologically presents as female and psychologically identifies as male, or

144
00:07:42,360 --> 00:07:47,000
Speaker 2: biologically presents as male and psychologically identifies as female.

145
00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:49,960
Speaker 1: And then there are people who are a gender, which

146
00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:53,960
Speaker 1: means that regardless of what their biology says, they don't

147
00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:58,880
Speaker 1: feel a majority pull towards one gender or the other.

148
00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:01,760
Speaker 2: So, now that we've gone through through biological sex and gender,

149
00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:03,880
Speaker 2: we want to point out that these things have nothing

150
00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:05,440
Speaker 2: to do with sexual orientation.

151
00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:09,840
Speaker 1: Sexual orientation has nothing to do with your sex or

152
00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:12,400
Speaker 1: your gender, so we're not talking about that in this episode.

153
00:08:12,440 --> 00:08:14,200
Speaker 2: So, now that we've leveled the play and field, here

154
00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:16,000
Speaker 2: are some of our questions. So we're going to talk

155
00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:18,520
Speaker 2: about some of the hormones. What is testosterone. We know

156
00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:20,320
Speaker 2: it's a hormone, but what does it have to do

157
00:08:20,360 --> 00:08:23,320
Speaker 2: with your ability to perform as an athlete?

158
00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:26,720
Speaker 1: Does testosterone give you a competitive edge, like if you

159
00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:27,520
Speaker 1: have more of it.

160
00:08:27,760 --> 00:08:30,040
Speaker 2: Are there other hormones that we should be considering or

161
00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:31,920
Speaker 2: is testosterone the only one that matters.

162
00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:36,280
Speaker 1: I want to know what is the average testosterone level

163
00:08:36,320 --> 00:08:42,240
Speaker 1: for a woman and who determined the baseline in the

164
00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:47,520
Speaker 1: IAF and what are the effects of having a higher

165
00:08:47,559 --> 00:08:48,679
Speaker 1: testosterone level.

166
00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:50,800
Speaker 2: So I think that's a good starting ground for us.

167
00:08:51,160 --> 00:08:54,280
Speaker 2: Very good, let's dig in for today's dissection. We've invited

168
00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:55,439
Speaker 2: doctor Anthony Hackney.

169
00:08:55,520 --> 00:08:58,800
Speaker 4: I'm doctor Anthony Hackney of the University of North Carolina

170
00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:03,400
Speaker 4: at Chapel Hill, a professor of Exercise Physiology and Nutrition

171
00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:06,080
Speaker 4: in the Department of Exercise and Supports Science.

172
00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:09,160
Speaker 1: Doctor Hackney served as a scientific expert on the Castors

173
00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:12,480
Speaker 1: to Menu case against the IAAF, and he testified several

174
00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:13,480
Speaker 1: times on her behalf.

175
00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:15,840
Speaker 2: We'll talk more about Caster's case later in the show,

176
00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:17,680
Speaker 2: but first, let's talk about hormones.

177
00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:20,400
Speaker 1: We know that testosterone is a hormone, but what are

178
00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:22,600
Speaker 1: hormones like on the Grand scheme.

179
00:09:23,120 --> 00:09:26,520
Speaker 2: Hormones are chemical signals that are secreted into your blood

180
00:09:26,600 --> 00:09:30,959
Speaker 2: or other fluids in the body, and they just act

181
00:09:31,240 --> 00:09:34,079
Speaker 2: on other cells. So you have other cells that may

182
00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:37,360
Speaker 2: have a receptor and they get that signal. So hormones

183
00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:41,160
Speaker 2: are often considered like the long distance signal, so they

184
00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:44,200
Speaker 2: can travel throughout the bloodstream.

185
00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:46,960
Speaker 1: And then depending on what type of hormony it is,

186
00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:48,319
Speaker 1: it has a specific function.

187
00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:51,400
Speaker 2: Yeah. A hormone is a broad term for any kind

188
00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:53,640
Speaker 2: of chemical signal that acts on another cell.

189
00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:57,880
Speaker 1: Okay, So where are they made? Where do they come from?

190
00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:00,600
Speaker 2: Hormones are made in cells, and those tend to be

191
00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:04,720
Speaker 2: grouped in different glands. Right. So thyroid that's a gland

192
00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:11,440
Speaker 2: that makes hormones, the pituitary gland, testes, ovaries, adrenal glands.

193
00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:13,760
Speaker 1: And so all of those glands they make up your

194
00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:15,000
Speaker 1: endocrine system, right.

195
00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:18,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, those glands and cells that secrete hormones make up

196
00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:21,240
Speaker 2: your indocrine system. Okay, and so the study of those

197
00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:26,080
Speaker 2: hormones and those glands is into chronology. So hormones are

198
00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:31,120
Speaker 2: basically a communication network. They kind of keep your body

199
00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:33,880
Speaker 2: at its physiological norm. So people don't think of it often,

200
00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:37,000
Speaker 2: but insulin is a hormone, oh right, So keeping your

201
00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:41,000
Speaker 2: gluclose level in a range that is physiologically is favorable. Right.

202
00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:45,080
Speaker 2: And so hormones, because they both regulate kind of or

203
00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:48,520
Speaker 2: keep you balanced physiologically as a full adult, but they're

204
00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:51,920
Speaker 2: also involved in the development of you as an adult.

205
00:10:51,920 --> 00:10:55,520
Speaker 2: So hormones change as you grow through puberty. That's a

206
00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:58,240
Speaker 2: that's a stage that we really know or people will

207
00:10:58,280 --> 00:11:00,319
Speaker 2: often say, like, oh, it's hormones and stuff.

208
00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:02,520
Speaker 1: Right, And so your endocrine system when you're at that

209
00:11:02,679 --> 00:11:04,880
Speaker 1: age is like pumping out all kinds of stuff. It's like,

210
00:11:04,880 --> 00:11:10,800
Speaker 1: all right, it's not for you to grow up. You're

211
00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:12,480
Speaker 1: gonna hate your mom for about a year.

212
00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:15,360
Speaker 2: That is not exactly how I would have described it,

213
00:11:15,400 --> 00:11:23,480
Speaker 2: but thank you you guys wan TC teaching your kids biology.

214
00:11:23,559 --> 00:11:26,760
Speaker 2: I love it. So hormones play a role even in

215
00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:29,320
Speaker 2: early stages of development, and it also has a role

216
00:11:29,360 --> 00:11:31,000
Speaker 2: in biological sex.

217
00:11:30,960 --> 00:11:33,120
Speaker 1: And doctor Hackney says that there are three specific types

218
00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:39,000
Speaker 1: of hormones that are critical in determining biological sex. It's testosterone, estrogen,

219
00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:39,960
Speaker 1: and progesterone.

220
00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:43,240
Speaker 2: People sometimes think of testosterone as the male hormone and

221
00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:46,360
Speaker 2: estrogen as the female hormone, but we all actually have

222
00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:46,880
Speaker 2: all three.

223
00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:49,600
Speaker 4: But what we find is when we're looking at males

224
00:11:49,679 --> 00:11:53,800
Speaker 4: as females, the proportionality the amount of each of those

225
00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:55,720
Speaker 4: hormones is quite different.

226
00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:59,560
Speaker 1: Typically, men have a lot of testosterone and much smaller

227
00:11:59,559 --> 00:12:04,439
Speaker 1: amounts of estrogen and progesterone, while most women have smaller

228
00:12:04,480 --> 00:12:09,160
Speaker 1: amounts of testosterone and much greater amounts of estrogen and progesterone.

229
00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:12,320
Speaker 2: Let's look at testosterone levels specifically, since that was the

230
00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:15,839
Speaker 2: focus of cast Seminius case. What are the average levels

231
00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:17,880
Speaker 2: of testosterone for both men and women.

232
00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:21,320
Speaker 4: Men are going to have testosterone that's about ten to

233
00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:27,160
Speaker 4: thirty nanimals per leader. Women are going to have testosterone

234
00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:32,240
Speaker 4: that's going down to zero to about ten nanimals per lider.

235
00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:35,080
Speaker 1: So what makes testosterone so special?

236
00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:42,720
Speaker 4: Testosterone has both anabolic and androgenic properties testosterones.

237
00:12:42,800 --> 00:12:46,079
Speaker 2: Androgenic properties means that it contributes to the development of

238
00:12:46,120 --> 00:12:50,040
Speaker 2: male characteristics, particularly around puberty. So that's deep voice a

239
00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:52,160
Speaker 2: lot of body hair, you know, things that we typically

240
00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:53,480
Speaker 2: associate with b and male And.

241
00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:56,679
Speaker 4: When we talk about anabolic we're talking about the ability

242
00:12:56,840 --> 00:13:01,840
Speaker 4: to influence protein synthesis. And when we think of protein synthesis,

243
00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:05,200
Speaker 4: we tend to think of muscle tissue. And what you

244
00:13:05,280 --> 00:13:09,520
Speaker 4: find is in the presence of testosterone, muscle will grow

245
00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:13,240
Speaker 4: and will be able to add more muscle to the body.

246
00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:16,280
Speaker 1: This helps explain why everyone is talking so much about

247
00:13:16,360 --> 00:13:20,640
Speaker 1: testosterone as an indicator for maleness in sports as opposed

248
00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:24,680
Speaker 1: to talking about estrogen and progesterone, because estrogen and progesterone

249
00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:28,040
Speaker 1: don't contribute as much to what we see as stereotypically

250
00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:29,240
Speaker 1: athletic functions.

251
00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:34,360
Speaker 4: But having said that, just because you have more testosterone

252
00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:38,120
Speaker 4: and you might have more muscle mass is not automatically

253
00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:43,479
Speaker 4: something that results in you having an enhance sporting performance.

254
00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:46,520
Speaker 1: Folks think that having higher testosterone levels means that you're

255
00:13:46,559 --> 00:13:49,800
Speaker 1: automatically going to be the Hulk or the Juggernaut, but not.

256
00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:52,880
Speaker 4: And the other point I want to make is sometimes

257
00:13:52,920 --> 00:13:57,800
Speaker 4: people again tend to view this in a very simplistic fashion.

258
00:13:58,280 --> 00:14:00,320
Speaker 4: What you find is they tend to think of it

259
00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:04,760
Speaker 4: as linear and proportional. Oh, if I have twice the testosterone,

260
00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:07,439
Speaker 4: I have the capacity to have twice the muscle, therefore

261
00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:11,280
Speaker 4: twice the strength, twice the power output. And it's not

262
00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:14,640
Speaker 4: a linear relationship, it's not proportional.

263
00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:18,640
Speaker 2: Testostphone is not the defining factor of maleness or athleticism.

264
00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:21,960
Speaker 2: If we're regulating testosterone, we should probably be regulating some

265
00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:25,520
Speaker 2: other genetic and biological factors that could affect athletic performance.

266
00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:28,160
Speaker 2: So if you think about it, like we should probably

267
00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:31,440
Speaker 2: be talking about Michael Phelps, right because Michael Phelps, who

268
00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:33,960
Speaker 2: we all know, is a world class swimmer. You know,

269
00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:36,960
Speaker 2: he's won a bunch of gold medals, but he also

270
00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:42,240
Speaker 2: is known to produce way less lactic acid than the

271
00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:45,600
Speaker 2: average man. And lactic acid you know when they say

272
00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:48,200
Speaker 2: feel to burn when you're working out, that's what the.

273
00:14:48,240 --> 00:14:51,240
Speaker 1: Lactic acid is and what you're feeling. And since he

274
00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:54,560
Speaker 1: doesn't produce as much, he is able to recover from

275
00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:58,800
Speaker 1: workouts way faster than his other male competitors.

276
00:14:58,280 --> 00:14:59,880
Speaker 2: Then you have to think, well, why is it lactic

277
00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:05,080
Speaker 2: aid production regulated? It sounds like he has an unfair advantage. Now, hmmm, interesting,

278
00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:08,800
Speaker 2: very interesting, Simps Tea. If I do say so myself,

279
00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:13,800
Speaker 2: I'll have conference with this tea. So we're gonna take

280
00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:15,400
Speaker 2: a quick break and when we come back, we're going

281
00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:18,360
Speaker 2: to talk more about Caster Semenya's case against the IUBLEAF

282
00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:33,240
Speaker 2: and then what her options are in this scenario.

283
00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:36,120
Speaker 1: And we're back, and now we're going to dive into

284
00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:38,680
Speaker 1: the Caster se Mena case in more detail.

285
00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:43,280
Speaker 4: What happened The IBLEAF, which is in charge of track

286
00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:46,400
Speaker 4: and field or athletics as it's known through most of

287
00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:49,240
Speaker 4: the rest of the world. Have tried to make certain

288
00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:53,720
Speaker 4: that the playing field is fair and so that we

289
00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:58,480
Speaker 4: have men competing against men, women competing against women. So

290
00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:01,440
Speaker 4: they came up with this materia in the last few

291
00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:06,400
Speaker 4: years of X amount of testosterone would designate someone as

292
00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:10,240
Speaker 4: being a man. Below x amount of testosterone would be

293
00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:13,400
Speaker 4: as someone designated as a woman.

294
00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:16,560
Speaker 2: So what is the IUBLEAF defined criteria for a man

295
00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:17,240
Speaker 2: and a woman.

296
00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:23,359
Speaker 4: The original value that they set for male versus female,

297
00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:27,800
Speaker 4: the cut point was a unit of ten animals per leader.

298
00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:31,600
Speaker 4: If you were below ten, you're a woman. If you

299
00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:32,920
Speaker 4: were above ten a man.

300
00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:35,920
Speaker 2: Just as a reminder, we know that women have testosterone

301
00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:38,720
Speaker 2: levels from zero to ten and men have testosterone levels

302
00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:42,359
Speaker 2: from ten to thirty. So the IUBLEAF redid their analysis

303
00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:44,960
Speaker 2: and said, hm, ten's too high, let's make it five

304
00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:45,440
Speaker 2: for women.

305
00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:49,920
Speaker 4: So now the criteria is, according to the IUBLEAF, if

306
00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:55,640
Speaker 4: you are at five to zero nanimals per leader of testosterone,

307
00:16:55,680 --> 00:16:59,440
Speaker 4: you are a woman. If you're ten to thirty, you're

308
00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:00,000
Speaker 4: a man.

309
00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:02,080
Speaker 1: How are they even coming up with these numbers?

310
00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:04,280
Speaker 2: Right? That's half the range, half the known range. You

311
00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:07,160
Speaker 2: know for a fact, right that women fall between zero

312
00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:09,520
Speaker 2: and ten, and you're just like five. I've decided and

313
00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:12,600
Speaker 2: noticed that the range for women that the IAAF is

314
00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:15,800
Speaker 2: setting is from zero to five, and the men is

315
00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:19,480
Speaker 2: from ten to thirty. And so now you're saying five

316
00:17:19,560 --> 00:17:22,240
Speaker 2: and above. Even though our known range for men was

317
00:17:22,240 --> 00:17:24,840
Speaker 2: ten to thirty, you're saying five and above. Now you're

318
00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:26,720
Speaker 2: a man. That's crazy.

319
00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:30,840
Speaker 4: The way they came up with this is, as most

320
00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:34,320
Speaker 4: people were aware, at the very high level of sports,

321
00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:39,920
Speaker 4: there is testing for doping of athletes. Well, these doping

322
00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:44,680
Speaker 4: tests have involved many times collecting urine samples but also

323
00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:50,960
Speaker 4: blood samples, and so the IAAF, in concert with some

324
00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:54,879
Speaker 4: of the doping control agencies, went back into their data

325
00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:58,760
Speaker 4: files and came up with their standards based upon that.

326
00:17:59,040 --> 00:18:02,359
Speaker 2: It's hard for me a scenario where you say, I

327
00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:05,359
Speaker 2: get more data, so now I have fewer outliers. What

328
00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:06,400
Speaker 2: now I.

329
00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:09,520
Speaker 1: Narrow the range. It doesn't make sense. If you're seeing

330
00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:12,440
Speaker 1: that women fall within this range from zero to ten,

331
00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:14,399
Speaker 1: why would you then narrow it.

332
00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:17,720
Speaker 2: And say, actually, I changed my mind, turned to CUSHA

333
00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:22,560
Speaker 2: goal change your mind from now change my mind. Oh

334
00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:23,600
Speaker 2: we are sharp.

335
00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:24,400
Speaker 1: That's fine.

336
00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:29,600
Speaker 2: So we know now in Castor's case that the IAAF

337
00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:32,000
Speaker 2: is saying her testosterone levels are too high. So she

338
00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:35,720
Speaker 2: has three options. She can stop competing all together, compete

339
00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:39,080
Speaker 2: with men, or lower her hormone levels. And if she

340
00:18:39,119 --> 00:18:42,040
Speaker 2: wants to lower her hormone levels, she has two options.

341
00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:46,359
Speaker 2: That's to have some type of hormone surgery or to

342
00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:47,760
Speaker 2: take hormone suppressants.

343
00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:49,880
Speaker 1: And the way that these suppressants work is that they

344
00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:53,359
Speaker 1: target the gonads. Yes, women have gonads, it's your ovaries

345
00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:56,879
Speaker 1: or the adrenal glands, and these suppressants make them stop

346
00:18:56,920 --> 00:19:01,040
Speaker 1: producing or greatly decrease the amount of testoone that's produced.

347
00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:07,640
Speaker 4: The problem you run into is when you start suppressing intocrenfunction,

348
00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:11,000
Speaker 4: there is always going to be a cascade of some

349
00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:13,800
Speaker 4: side effects. And one of the side effects in the

350
00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:17,639
Speaker 4: context of these drugs is it can make the athlete

351
00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:23,320
Speaker 4: or any individual feel very lethargic, very tired. They can

352
00:19:23,359 --> 00:19:27,879
Speaker 4: experience some aspects of mood swings that relate to their motivation.

353
00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:29,960
Speaker 1: Turn that ball around, we want to see the fine print.

354
00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:33,280
Speaker 2: What are the nutrition facts on that. Because intestinserone is

355
00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:36,000
Speaker 2: involved in other pathways with other hormone.

356
00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:38,440
Speaker 1: Right, like on those commercials for any drug when it's

357
00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:41,119
Speaker 1: like this may cost diarrhea, consumpation, and you may want

358
00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:42,000
Speaker 1: to cut off your left arm.

359
00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:45,440
Speaker 4: And so you find that the athlete who is on

360
00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:50,359
Speaker 4: this treatment may therefore not be able to train as

361
00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:53,159
Speaker 4: well because they don't feel well, they may not be

362
00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:57,040
Speaker 4: as motivated, and training is a critical thing for enhancing

363
00:19:57,119 --> 00:19:58,119
Speaker 4: sports performance.

364
00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:00,840
Speaker 1: So basically they're setting these women up to how are

365
00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:03,600
Speaker 1: you supposed to be an elite athlete if you don't

366
00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:07,600
Speaker 1: even have the motivation or the energy to train? That

367
00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:12,720
Speaker 1: turns castas and mena into T T. Shadia couch potato extraordinaire.

368
00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:15,760
Speaker 2: So what about men? What if we have a man

369
00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:18,520
Speaker 2: that has a high level of testosterone? Is anybody checking this?

370
00:20:19,119 --> 00:20:21,439
Speaker 2: Because that range is ten to thirty that's a pretty

371
00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:24,240
Speaker 2: big range. So are certain men gonna have to take

372
00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:26,560
Speaker 2: hormone suppressants if we flip it on his head? What

373
00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:29,720
Speaker 2: about men that have low levels of testosterone? Are they

374
00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:32,480
Speaker 2: now going to to be able to take hormones? Right?

375
00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:36,520
Speaker 1: Because doctor Hackney told us about an actual scenario where

376
00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:39,560
Speaker 1: men who exercise a lot over a long period of time,

377
00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:45,920
Speaker 1: they experience this thing called hypogonadism which causes their testosterone

378
00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:48,960
Speaker 1: level to drop, so you could be an elite athlete

379
00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:52,080
Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden everything goes pear shape.

380
00:20:52,119 --> 00:20:56,159
Speaker 4: One of the questions when we were at the actual

381
00:20:56,280 --> 00:21:01,680
Speaker 4: court of arbitration for sport I brought up was are

382
00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:04,479
Speaker 4: we going to next move to those men who have

383
00:21:04,720 --> 00:21:09,119
Speaker 4: low testosterone and give them supplementation so that we can

384
00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:13,440
Speaker 4: classify them as a man. And that question was very

385
00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:18,000
Speaker 4: quickly shut down by the judges and the other legal

386
00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:21,359
Speaker 4: team saying, that's not the question we're dealing with. But

387
00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:25,119
Speaker 4: might we see that as a future legal argument that

388
00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:28,160
Speaker 4: someone's going to bring. I don't know, but I would

389
00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:28,960
Speaker 4: not be surprised.

390
00:21:29,119 --> 00:21:30,720
Speaker 2: So where do we go from here? I mean, is

391
00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:34,280
Speaker 2: there a future where even the young tykes in the

392
00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:37,200
Speaker 2: pee wee league and the AAU basketball team, where they're

393
00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:40,920
Speaker 2: now doing hormone testing right and disqualifying all of these

394
00:21:40,920 --> 00:21:43,520
Speaker 2: people from certain sports because or telling them they have

395
00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:48,160
Speaker 2: to compete in a sport that is for a different sex. Yeah,

396
00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:49,520
Speaker 2: Like what's next?

397
00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:52,600
Speaker 1: I don't know. And what doctor Hackney is saying is

398
00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:55,920
Speaker 1: that it's this, in his opinion, is going to lead

399
00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:57,399
Speaker 1: to this slippery slope.

400
00:21:57,440 --> 00:22:04,800
Speaker 4: I'm speaking opinion here. My fear here is that, to

401
00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:08,440
Speaker 4: use a cliche, we have started down a slippery slope

402
00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:15,280
Speaker 4: where a sporting organization gets to dictate whether someone is

403
00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:20,000
Speaker 4: a man or a woman and then impact their lives.

404
00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:25,280
Speaker 4: I'm a person who does believe in having a level

405
00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:30,480
Speaker 4: and fair playing field, but I don't think the again,

406
00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:35,800
Speaker 4: the criteria and the method that is being applied in

407
00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:41,280
Speaker 4: this particular case is solid enough and full proof enough

408
00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:45,000
Speaker 4: that we're not going to ultimately do some harm to

409
00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:48,160
Speaker 4: some women athletes who are going to be told they

410
00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:49,840
Speaker 4: cannot compete as women.

411
00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:03,720
Speaker 2: I think one of the major things that I took

412
00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:06,200
Speaker 2: away from what doctor Hackney was saying is that it's

413
00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:10,680
Speaker 2: not cut and dry, right. Testosterone is not like one

414
00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:13,399
Speaker 2: single player out here. It's interacting with other things, and

415
00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:17,439
Speaker 2: it's not a linear relationship. I think that was one

416
00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:20,520
Speaker 2: of the most eye opening things for me. And I

417
00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:23,600
Speaker 2: had no clue about those ranges. I knew that they

418
00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:25,920
Speaker 2: were moving the levels, but I didn't know that there

419
00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:29,399
Speaker 2: was so like such an apparent gap. So it's like

420
00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:33,800
Speaker 2: now that they basically created this five to ten gap

421
00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:36,840
Speaker 2: that's not male and it's not female, and then it's

422
00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:38,600
Speaker 2: just arbitrarily saying it's male.

423
00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:40,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think the part that stood out for

424
00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:45,199
Speaker 1: me was the fact that it's only those ranges for

425
00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:49,440
Speaker 1: certain events. Yes, that was so jarring for me because

426
00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:55,560
Speaker 1: I was just like, this does not come, does not compute,

427
00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:58,199
Speaker 1: So I don't very good point. So it's just like

428
00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:02,320
Speaker 1: it's not even just the range was changed, it's that

429
00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:04,480
Speaker 1: it's not even across the board.

430
00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:09,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, So you got to decide is chestosterone providing a

431
00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:10,320
Speaker 2: competitive edge.

432
00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:13,720
Speaker 1: Or not, because it should provide it for every single event.

433
00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:17,520
Speaker 2: You can't say it's only useful if you run a mile,

434
00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:18,960
Speaker 2: but not if you run three quarters.

435
00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:21,879
Speaker 1: What that doesn't make sense, not to me at least.

436
00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:24,960
Speaker 1: Imagine you get to your job and they're like, sorry,

437
00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:27,120
Speaker 1: based on the amount of hair loss that you have,

438
00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:28,520
Speaker 1: you are now a man.

439
00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:29,840
Speaker 2: That would be crazy.

440
00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:33,359
Speaker 1: That's crazy. And so that means that you would have

441
00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:38,240
Speaker 1: to use the men's rest. It would literally change everything

442
00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:39,480
Speaker 1: you do at work.

443
00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:43,480
Speaker 2: Now, that's a good example, but for somebody like caster Samnia,

444
00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:46,920
Speaker 2: it's like we're saying you're a man at work, and

445
00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:49,879
Speaker 2: now I will introduce you to the entire world as

446
00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:52,880
Speaker 2: a man. Because when you think about it, The only

447
00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:56,560
Speaker 2: way I know who cast Samenia is is because her

448
00:24:56,600 --> 00:24:59,640
Speaker 2: employer introduced her to me right through the television, through

449
00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:02,800
Speaker 2: the tail of vision, Track and Field. And so now

450
00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:05,320
Speaker 2: it's not even like, oh, they're just saying, they're just

451
00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:08,120
Speaker 2: putting an m on my on my pace up right,

452
00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:10,159
Speaker 2: Like I know I'm not a man, They're just on

453
00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:12,639
Speaker 2: my pace up. Like this is public to the entire world,

454
00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:16,040
Speaker 2: you know. And it doesn't really stop there because we

455
00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:19,880
Speaker 2: know where there's one law, there's another, a new law

456
00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:20,640
Speaker 2: soon come.

457
00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:24,960
Speaker 1: Another one right, another one and another one.

458
00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:28,000
Speaker 2: And because we know those laws are not creating in isolation,

459
00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:30,399
Speaker 2: it kind of brings like what's gonna be next?

460
00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:32,320
Speaker 1: I feel like I can already predict what's going to

461
00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:37,120
Speaker 1: happen next. You know how like they do sports for kids,

462
00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:39,479
Speaker 1: how they group them by age group, right, And so

463
00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:42,720
Speaker 1: what if they test this this little kid and they're like, oh,

464
00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:45,400
Speaker 1: I know he's five, but he has the testosterone level

465
00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:47,760
Speaker 1: of a sixteen year old. So now he's got to

466
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:50,119
Speaker 1: go play on the JV team at the at the

467
00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:54,480
Speaker 1: high school. Man, that's crazy, that's crazy. No, little Timmy

468
00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:56,439
Speaker 1: needs to be playing with five year olds because he

469
00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:58,040
Speaker 1: has the brain of a five year old.

470
00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:01,280
Speaker 2: He still has his baby team. You can't be out

471
00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:02,919
Speaker 2: here playing with these sixteen year.

472
00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:07,159
Speaker 1: Old right, He's still taking Flintstone vitamins at night. Okay,

473
00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:10,879
Speaker 1: So I'm joking because testosterone doesn't really kick in until

474
00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:15,560
Speaker 1: after puberty. But I mean, there's some huge implications here.

475
00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:18,280
Speaker 2: And the people that are making the decisions are not

476
00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:20,080
Speaker 2: the ones that are affected by it. And it sounds

477
00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:27,800
Speaker 2: about Alabama. Sounds about Alabama, sounds about Kentucky and Georgia.

478
00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:44,640
Speaker 2: Y'all better wake up. For more on today's episode, check

479
00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:46,879
Speaker 2: out our cheat sheet and show notes at Dope Labs

480
00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:48,680
Speaker 2: podcasts dot com.

481
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:50,800
Speaker 1: And remember the phone lines are always open. You can

482
00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:53,560
Speaker 1: leave us a question or a comment or text us.

483
00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:57,160
Speaker 1: Our number is two zero two five six seven seven

484
00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:01,960
Speaker 1: zero two eight. That's two zero two seven seven zero

485
00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:02,640
Speaker 1: two eight.

486
00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:05,320
Speaker 2: You can find us on Twitter and Instagram at Dope

487
00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:08,240
Speaker 2: Labs podcast. T t is on Twitter and Instagram at

488
00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:11,040
Speaker 2: dr Underscore t Sho.

489
00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:13,360
Speaker 1: And you can find Zakia on Twitter and Instagram at

490
00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:14,399
Speaker 1: z Said So.

491
00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:16,800
Speaker 2: And if you do love the show, don't forget to

492
00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:19,080
Speaker 2: follow us on Spotify or wherever else you listen to

493
00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:20,200
Speaker 2: your podcast.

494
00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:22,720
Speaker 1: Special Thanks today to our guest doctor Anthony Hackney. If

495
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:25,560
Speaker 1: you want to learn more about the topics in today's lab,

496
00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:29,360
Speaker 1: check out his book Doping, Performance Enhancing Drugs and Hormones

497
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:29,720
Speaker 1: and Sport.

498
00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:31,600
Speaker 2: We'll link to it in our show notes on Dope

499
00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:35,160
Speaker 2: Labs podcast dot com. Special thank you to Raheem White,

500
00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:37,280
Speaker 2: our wonderful listener who called in and gave us a

501
00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:40,200
Speaker 2: question that led to today's episode. Our producer is Jenny

502
00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:43,160
Speaker 2: Rattle at MAAST. Mixing and sound design by Hannes Brown.

503
00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:46,840
Speaker 1: Original theme music by Taka Yasuzawa and Alex sugi Ura.

504
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:49,560
Speaker 1: Additional music by Elijah Lexhrvey.

505
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:51,760
Speaker 2: Dope Labs is brought to you by three M and

506
00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:55,000
Speaker 2: is a production of Spotify Studios and Mega Own Media Group,

507
00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:57,960
Speaker 2: and is executive produced by us T. T. Shadia and

508
00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:11,440
Speaker 2: Zakiah Wattley. Who you think will winning a foot rights

509
00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:11,760
Speaker 2: me or you?

510
00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:16,800
Speaker 3: If you?

511
00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:18,840
Speaker 1: It depends on what's it the finish line? If if

512
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:21,879
Speaker 1: if it's organic greens, I'm losing.

513
00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:24,359
Speaker 2: I'm winning. I'm winning.

514
00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:28,080
Speaker 1: If there's hot dogs at the finish line, I'm definitely winning.

515
00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:30,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, you'll beat me. I love hot dogs.