WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 95 0:00:00.280 --> 0:00:02.680 Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted to let 0:00:02.759 --> 0:00:06.400 you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode 0:00:06.519 --> 0:00:09.440 of the week that just happened is here in one 0:00:09.520 --> 0:00:13.280 convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 0:00:13.320 --> 0:00:15.800 listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 0:00:15.800 --> 0:00:17.720 you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:17.760 --> 0:00:19.959 there's gotta be nothing new here for you, but you 0:00:20.000 --> 0:00:29.800 can make your own decisions. It could happen. Here is 0:00:29.800 --> 0:00:32.360 the podcast that this is right now? Would you guys? 0:00:32.520 --> 0:00:35.400 When do you guys? Solo intro this podcast? James Stout, 0:00:35.479 --> 0:00:38.640 Mia Wong do y'all? Uh do y'all just like shout 0:00:38.640 --> 0:00:40.960 atonally ever have you have y'all tried that yet? 0:00:41.840 --> 0:00:42.280 I haven't. 0:00:42.320 --> 0:00:45.880 I struggle with the intro. I just say hello everyone. 0:00:46.280 --> 0:00:49.680 Yeah James, Nope, No. 0:00:49.920 --> 0:00:53.800 That's try that's your that's your East Coast Ivy League elitism. 0:00:54.120 --> 0:00:55.000 Uh coming through. 0:00:55.560 --> 0:00:57.800 Yeah, that's that's correct. For ever since I was born 0:00:57.840 --> 0:01:02.720 in Boston, I've had that, Yeah, growing up on a 0:01:02.760 --> 0:01:04.959 different side of the tracks to yourself also from Boston, 0:01:05.000 --> 0:01:05.640 New Coos. 0:01:05.760 --> 0:01:10.000 That's right, that's right, Yes, in Boston. I'm sure I'm 0:01:10.000 --> 0:01:13.760 not allowed currently to do the accent because Sophie for 0:01:13.840 --> 0:01:18.240 legal reasons. Yeah yeah, I uh yeah, yeah, she's got 0:01:18.280 --> 0:01:22.279 some dirt on me. Anyway, we are a podcast about 0:01:22.360 --> 0:01:25.880 things falling apart, and you know what would make things 0:01:25.880 --> 0:01:29.040 fall apart worse than they already are is if Donald 0:01:29.080 --> 0:01:32.959 Trump won a second term. So today, true, we're going 0:01:33.000 --> 0:01:35.759 to talk partly about that, and we're going to talk 0:01:35.880 --> 0:01:38.800 about the indictments against him. That's the big news, right 0:01:39.640 --> 0:01:42.480 the most recent big political news. Unless he's been indicted 0:01:42.520 --> 0:01:46.640 again by the time this episode drops, not impossible, send 0:01:46.680 --> 0:01:49.560 another one ready to draw up. But for my last kind, 0:01:49.600 --> 0:01:52.920 I think he's at like seventy eight charges felony charges 0:01:53.040 --> 0:01:55.680 at the moment, so honestly. 0:01:55.320 --> 0:01:58.680 He might get to triple digits. He's not all that far. 0:01:59.520 --> 0:02:03.240 There's stuff like I didn't realize. Well, I guess I 0:02:03.320 --> 0:02:06.000 knew intellectually that you could, that you could be charged 0:02:06.000 --> 0:02:08.359 with conspiracy to do something and then also doing it, 0:02:08.600 --> 0:02:11.720 but I don't think I know, Yeah, like, I don't 0:02:11.720 --> 0:02:14.760 think I've ever seen a politician charged with both conspiracy 0:02:14.840 --> 0:02:16.240 and the actual doing of the thing. 0:02:16.880 --> 0:02:17.240 Yeah. 0:02:17.480 --> 0:02:20.720 I hope at some point, assuming you know, we continue 0:02:20.720 --> 0:02:24.520 to have something that resembles freedom of speech. We'll get 0:02:24.520 --> 0:02:27.960 a good book about like how the whole process of 0:02:28.000 --> 0:02:30.720 them had like figuring out how and when and weather 0:02:30.840 --> 0:02:34.440 to actually like go after him. I mean, obviously we're 0:02:34.440 --> 0:02:38.280 talking about both, like the FEDS and the dau in 0:02:38.360 --> 0:02:41.000 New York, but I am interested in both of those 0:02:41.160 --> 0:02:44.280 stories because there has to be there have to have 0:02:44.320 --> 0:02:49.760 been some real interesting conversations. But yeah, we are right 0:02:49.800 --> 0:02:52.320 now he we're looking at him. He's about to be 0:02:52.440 --> 0:02:56.720 arraigned as we talk about this, for inciting an insurrection 0:02:56.840 --> 0:02:59.200 at the capitol. So so that's pretty cool. Mia, you 0:02:59.240 --> 0:03:01.320 wanted to to start us off here, I think. 0:03:01.480 --> 0:03:03.160 Yeah, yeah, And I think this is okay. So this 0:03:03.240 --> 0:03:06.839 is an interesting indictment in that, like it somehow took 0:03:06.880 --> 0:03:10.799 them about two years to like actually do the indictment. 0:03:10.840 --> 0:03:13.080 That's like, hey, it's illegal to over try to overthrow 0:03:13.120 --> 0:03:14.960 the government by installing yourself as president. 0:03:16.560 --> 0:03:19.720 And in fairness, they don't have a lot of experience 0:03:20.000 --> 0:03:21.320 charging people with that one. 0:03:21.720 --> 0:03:25.400 Well, and we should actually mention they should Bush. Well, 0:03:25.440 --> 0:03:27.640 here's the thing, Bush Bush. Actually we're gonna talk about 0:03:27.639 --> 0:03:29.600 this more later, but like Bush actually got away with 0:03:29.639 --> 0:03:32.280 this right, Like the last time a court ruled on 0:03:32.360 --> 0:03:34.800 whether a president can use the courts to instalve themselves 0:03:34.800 --> 0:03:37.000 as president. The Supreme Court was like, yeah, that's fine, 0:03:37.120 --> 0:03:39.520 that's like no problem, Like, yeah, it's fine, you can. 0:03:39.120 --> 0:03:41.200 You can have a mob show up and disrupt the 0:03:41.200 --> 0:03:43.960 counting process and it's fine. But Trump like fucked up 0:03:44.040 --> 0:03:48.720 and didn't do it the way you're supposed to. Yeah, 0:03:48.760 --> 0:03:51.960 and you know, there's something sort of I don't know. 0:03:52.320 --> 0:03:54.040 So there's something I was thinking about while I was 0:03:54.040 --> 0:03:56.880 reading this, which is like the English languish, doesn't I 0:03:56.880 --> 0:03:58.640 think part of the issue here is like we don't. 0:03:59.240 --> 0:03:59.560 I don't know. 0:03:59.600 --> 0:04:02.040 The English. English doesn't even like have a good word 0:04:02.320 --> 0:04:04.480 for like the kind of coup that Trump was doing. 0:04:04.840 --> 0:04:07.200 Like there's a Spanish word which is auto golpe, which 0:04:07.280 --> 0:04:11.320 is like yeah, Spanish, He's got a great one in 0:04:11.360 --> 0:04:13.480 English and translates to self coup. And we're just like 0:04:13.720 --> 0:04:16.400 we're done. It's like no, no, that sucks. That time sucks. 0:04:16.440 --> 0:04:18.479 It's really I wish I had a better Trump voice 0:04:18.520 --> 0:04:20.240 because then I could do on a golpe. 0:04:20.320 --> 0:04:20.960 What is that is that? 0:04:21.040 --> 0:04:22.760 Like a like a like at seven eleven, the big 0:04:22.800 --> 0:04:27.160 sixty four rounds diet coach that you get yeah, but I. 0:04:27.120 --> 0:04:27.599 Can't do it. 0:04:27.720 --> 0:04:29.440 I can't do a good Trump. So that wasn't as 0:04:29.480 --> 0:04:33.360 funny as it should have. Anyway, whatever me, please continue. 0:04:33.560 --> 0:04:37.279 We had we had it, so you know, I I think, 0:04:37.560 --> 0:04:41.120 you know, I think it's worth kind of thinking a 0:04:41.160 --> 0:04:42.920 little bit and we're gonna sort of come back to 0:04:43.000 --> 0:04:47.080 this as we go through this case. But I think 0:04:47.080 --> 0:04:51.680 it's worth remembering that again, like everything Trump is doing 0:04:51.760 --> 0:04:58.200 in this is based off of like is it is 0:04:58.279 --> 0:05:01.440 based off of the sort of Bush thing into in 0:05:01.480 --> 0:05:04.159 two thousand where he had a bunch of well, okay, 0:05:05.600 --> 0:05:11.280 so a bunch of Bush's political operatives like stormed one 0:05:11.279 --> 0:05:13.240 of the one of the places that was doing the 0:05:13.279 --> 0:05:15.440 recount in Florida and stopped them from counting the votes 0:05:15.480 --> 0:05:17.440 and then they just delayed and long enough that he 0:05:17.480 --> 0:05:18.680 was able to get appointed. 0:05:19.120 --> 0:05:22.040 Now the Brooks Brothers riot Roger Stone was a major 0:05:22.200 --> 0:05:22.640 part of that. 0:05:23.400 --> 0:05:26.719 Yeah, so we've we've done this. You know, we talked 0:05:26.720 --> 0:05:29.160 about this on the show like the end of last year. 0:05:30.720 --> 0:05:33.479 But but again, so the reason this worked though, right, 0:05:33.680 --> 0:05:39.960 is that Bush made really really sure that there was 0:05:40.040 --> 0:05:43.120 like a sound legal case sort of behind this entire thing. 0:05:43.240 --> 0:05:46.719 He made he made really sure to like go through 0:05:46.720 --> 0:05:48.680 all of the proper like checks and balances and. 0:05:48.640 --> 0:05:49.599 Like blah blah blah blah. 0:05:49.640 --> 0:05:52.560 But Trump just like didn't do this. And the result 0:05:52.600 --> 0:05:56.760 of this is that Jack Smith, like finally two years later, 0:05:56.839 --> 0:05:59.839 Jack Smith, who's this guy he was, he was appointed 0:05:59.880 --> 0:06:02.000 by Merrick Garland to like take over these two Justice 0:06:02.040 --> 0:06:05.560 Department cases about Trump. It has just indicted him with 0:06:06.160 --> 0:06:09.560 this stuff he has. So he's been charged with with 0:06:09.600 --> 0:06:12.000 three counts of criminal conspiracy and but I think his 0:06:12.040 --> 0:06:15.600 accounted obstruction. So I'm going to go through what he's 0:06:15.640 --> 0:06:16.400 actually been charged. 0:06:16.640 --> 0:06:18.760 I want to note something real quick, which is that 0:06:19.240 --> 0:06:23.159 another reason why it worked for Bush and it didn't 0:06:23.200 --> 0:06:26.400 for Trump is that with Bush, it was legitimately the 0:06:26.440 --> 0:06:28.200 election came down to Florida, right. 0:06:28.120 --> 0:06:28.760 Yeah, like it was. 0:06:28.839 --> 0:06:31.400 It was extremely close. It was really just a couple 0:06:31.400 --> 0:06:35.279 of counties in Florida. With Trump, he was not trying 0:06:35.320 --> 0:06:38.159 to just sort of like jink jink part of a state. 0:06:38.279 --> 0:06:42.839 It was like it was like Biden had a commanding lead. Yeah. 0:06:43.440 --> 0:06:46.200 Yeah, yeah. It was a big dub for Uncle Joe. 0:06:47.120 --> 0:06:50.320 Yeah, and and you know, I so yeah, like obviously, 0:06:50.400 --> 0:06:52.839 like Trump like just fails at this spectacularly and the 0:06:52.880 --> 0:06:54.800 law is finally coming after him. They so that they're 0:06:54.880 --> 0:06:58.920 charging him with conspiracy to defraud the United States, which 0:06:58.960 --> 0:07:00.280 again is the thing I didn't know you could do. 0:07:01.800 --> 0:07:04.240 And loan soundstrong, got that? Didn't he did? 0:07:04.240 --> 0:07:04.280 He? 0:07:05.120 --> 0:07:07.560 Oh yeah, because USPS was his sponsor. So he was 0:07:07.600 --> 0:07:08.640 defrauding the federal guns. 0:07:10.240 --> 0:07:13.000 Yeah, that's the don't yeah, don't, don't, don't you post. 0:07:13.480 --> 0:07:16.440 Trump's the first guy who's not rad to get charged 0:07:16.440 --> 0:07:19.280 with that. Sorry James, Okay, I didn't, I didn't. 0:07:20.240 --> 0:07:24.200 Job Yeah, sorry everyone, I'm out. 0:07:25.000 --> 0:07:28.800 So this this one is this is specifically like impairing 0:07:29.000 --> 0:07:33.040 the election, like impairing like the the the votes of 0:07:33.080 --> 0:07:36.640 the presidential election. The first one is mostly we'll talk 0:07:36.680 --> 0:07:39.000 about this more a bit like the illegitimate electors thing 0:07:39.000 --> 0:07:41.480 that he did. The second one is just him being 0:07:41.600 --> 0:07:44.560 charged for They they finally found a thing the charge 0:07:44.600 --> 0:07:46.760 him for doing January sixth, which was they charged him 0:07:46.800 --> 0:07:52.800 with like conspiracy to obstruct an official preceding, and then 0:07:52.960 --> 0:07:56.560 they got him also with obstruction obstructing the official proceeding, 0:07:56.600 --> 0:07:59.480 which again seems like a kind of likeas is, I 0:07:59.480 --> 0:08:01.680 don't know, it's not quite getting out the pop for 0:08:01.760 --> 0:08:04.080 tax evasion but like you'd think they'd have something like 0:08:04.880 --> 0:08:05.640 more prow. 0:08:05.680 --> 0:08:12.679 Over through the government, attempting to make yourself a dictator bonaparteism. 0:08:12.760 --> 0:08:14.280 Well it's not really bonapartism. 0:08:14.320 --> 0:08:19.040 But yeah, like seditions, right there sedition that's a choice. 0:08:19.200 --> 0:08:24.960 Yeah, Rightoice, they got him on obstruction. Okay, sure, I 0:08:25.040 --> 0:08:29.120 don't know, like this is I feel like our I 0:08:29.160 --> 0:08:31.240 don't know, our legal system seems to be sort of 0:08:31.240 --> 0:08:33.240 woefully unprepared for this. 0:08:34.120 --> 0:08:39.240 Well, yeah, it's not. Again, in fairness, everyone has before 0:08:39.280 --> 0:08:42.240 Trump was willing to play the game, right like we are, Like, obviously, 0:08:42.360 --> 0:08:45.200 Jeorge W. Bush stole the fucking election, no argument there, 0:08:45.600 --> 0:08:50.880 so did Nixon. But they did it with enough plausible deniability, 0:08:51.000 --> 0:08:53.640 right that the elite were that there was not there 0:08:53.640 --> 0:08:57.440 was not a fear among the quote unquote deep state 0:08:57.559 --> 0:08:59.840 or you know, the people the elites in this country 0:08:59.840 --> 0:09:04.040 that like this would obviously be someone overthrowing the government, right, 0:09:04.080 --> 0:09:09.360 And Nixon's case, fucking LBJ like basically refused to go 0:09:09.440 --> 0:09:12.280 after him for breaking the law and extended the Vietnam 0:09:12.320 --> 0:09:15.000 War and committing treason because it would be bad in 0:09:15.040 --> 0:09:18.600 his view for the country. Horrible mistake, obviously, and with 0:09:18.679 --> 0:09:19.280 George w. 0:09:19.360 --> 0:09:19.680 Bush. 0:09:19.760 --> 0:09:22.360 You know, he had he had the court on his side, 0:09:22.440 --> 0:09:25.120 and it like so there was there was enough plausible 0:09:25.160 --> 0:09:29.840 deniability that you know, it was not like it is 0:09:29.880 --> 0:09:31.680 with Trump where he was just like I'm gonna have 0:09:31.760 --> 0:09:34.560 a mob like a capital. 0:09:34.679 --> 0:09:36.560 You know, it's due in a ya cat. 0:09:36.600 --> 0:09:38.679 You know, I was thinking about this, like the last 0:09:38.679 --> 0:09:41.120 time someone actually did something like this, I think it 0:09:41.200 --> 0:09:43.400 was the Corrupt Bargain in like eighteen seventy three. Were 0:09:43.440 --> 0:09:44.600 just like like. 0:09:44.720 --> 0:09:47.560 They there was this argument or the Wilmington coup. 0:09:48.559 --> 0:09:50.320 Yeah well I mean I mean like yeah, but like 0:09:50.320 --> 0:09:53.920 like on on on the presidential level of like literally 0:09:53.920 --> 0:09:57.760 someone like like brother Ruby Hayes famously like they had 0:09:57.800 --> 0:10:02.320 basically this incredible thing like both parties were like they 0:10:02.480 --> 0:10:05.000 couldn't decide who was supposed to count the votes and 0:10:05.120 --> 0:10:07.240 which whichever like part of the two parties counted the 0:10:07.320 --> 0:10:09.040 votes was going to declare that they won the that 0:10:09.080 --> 0:10:11.240 they won the election. And so they worked out this 0:10:11.360 --> 0:10:14.040 like incredibly basically they worked out this compromise where like 0:10:14.040 --> 0:10:16.400 the Republicans got Rutherford Behayes like in office, but they 0:10:16.400 --> 0:10:19.800 also ended reconstruction. But that but and that that that 0:10:19.920 --> 0:10:22.000 was a period that was long ago enough that like 0:10:22.040 --> 0:10:24.559 you could do that ship without like involving the courts 0:10:24.679 --> 0:10:27.600 or involving this sort of like massive state apparatus, and 0:10:27.760 --> 0:10:30.520 you kind of like can't, I don't know, you can't 0:10:30.760 --> 0:10:33.679 outside of like Illinois, you can't really be that corrupt anymore. 0:10:34.000 --> 0:10:38.560 You have to sort of like. 0:10:36.920 --> 0:10:39.480 The reason Sandrea goes called en run by the sea Maya. 0:10:39.760 --> 0:10:43.439 Yeah, yeah, look, you have to you have to respect 0:10:43.640 --> 0:10:46.880 you know, local culture with these kinds of things, and 0:10:46.880 --> 0:10:50.760 and Illinois, it would actually be like an act of 0:10:51.760 --> 0:10:55.160 genocide to try to make Illinois politics not incredibly Oh yeah, 0:10:55.160 --> 0:10:58.240 I mean right, like that that's the destruction of a people. 0:10:58.760 --> 0:11:01.560 Yeah, Like, like one of the hated political figures in 0:11:01.640 --> 0:11:03.920 like the entire history of Illinois was this like state 0:11:04.000 --> 0:11:06.960 senator who went down for corruption but went down for 0:11:07.040 --> 0:11:11.480 like one hundred dollars of corruption and despise like one 0:11:11.520 --> 0:11:13.480 of the most hated political figures in Illinois because he 0:11:13.520 --> 0:11:15.240 only went down for he only did one hundred dollars 0:11:15.640 --> 0:11:19.720 of crimes, whereas like our current governor did like a 0:11:19.760 --> 0:11:22.640 bunch of really funny fraud and everyone loves him because 0:11:22.640 --> 0:11:25.320 it's hilarious where he like he like he like took 0:11:25.400 --> 0:11:27.480 all of the bathrooms out of one of his houses 0:11:27.520 --> 0:11:29.360 so it wouldn't be classified the house. 0:11:31.080 --> 0:11:35.720 That's that's kind of that's that's the guy you want 0:11:35.760 --> 0:11:36.800 in charge your legatives. 0:11:37.080 --> 0:11:39.600 When he sees a loophole, that's the guy. If we 0:11:39.640 --> 0:11:42.679 ever have a corruption Olympics, that's our only chance at 0:11:42.679 --> 0:11:48.719 beating the Russians. Illinois is gonna be our dream team. 0:11:48.760 --> 0:11:53.880 Like Prince Kerry is the least corrupt governor I've had 0:11:53.880 --> 0:11:57.120 in my lifetime. This is the least corrupt guy. He 0:11:57.240 --> 0:11:58.240 is like like. 0:11:58.240 --> 0:11:59.960 He is corrupt, but like he never shit. 0:12:00.880 --> 0:12:02.920 Yeah, it's I don't know, all aways sort of amazing. 0:12:03.200 --> 0:12:06.360 We should probably get back to this stuff. And so 0:12:06.360 --> 0:12:08.080 the last thing you got was they got him of 0:12:08.120 --> 0:12:10.760 like conspiracy against rights, so like a conspiracy against the 0:12:10.840 --> 0:12:13.880 right to vote and have your vote counted, which sure, yeah, 0:12:13.960 --> 0:12:14.160 do you do. 0:12:14.360 --> 0:12:16.559 A bad thing to do? I think conspiracy? 0:12:16.600 --> 0:12:19.360 Yeah, I mean it's it's not good like all of 0:12:19.360 --> 0:12:21.200 the things that he like they're accusing of, like he 0:12:21.320 --> 0:12:26.600 pretty clearly did. Yeah. So I want to also talk 0:12:26.600 --> 0:12:28.560 about the way this has been being talked about in 0:12:28.559 --> 0:12:31.160 the media because one of the things is happening here 0:12:31.200 --> 0:12:33.280 and this is This is sort of a trend with 0:12:33.360 --> 0:12:35.720 all forms of like things that are in the written language, 0:12:36.200 --> 0:12:39.000 is that everyone only reads the first like maybe one 0:12:39.080 --> 0:12:41.840 chapter or like especially the first couple of pages of 0:12:41.920 --> 0:12:44.600 something from any like written document. So this this is 0:12:44.600 --> 0:12:47.640 why like all the like you know, the like abandon 0:12:47.679 --> 0:12:50.559 all hope you you enter here from Dante's Inferno. That's 0:12:50.600 --> 0:12:52.600 that's that's the reason. That's when everyone knows because it's 0:12:52.600 --> 0:12:55.720 in like the first couple of chapters. And in this one, 0:12:55.800 --> 0:12:57.720 with this case, the thing that everyone got to was 0:12:58.040 --> 0:13:01.160 there's this very early part in the entire where the 0:13:01.200 --> 0:13:03.680 guy's like, well, yeah, so like it is legal to 0:13:03.800 --> 0:13:05.840 like lie about the election, like you have the free 0:13:05.840 --> 0:13:08.800 speech right to do that. But then also Trump knowingly 0:13:08.840 --> 0:13:10.400 lied about the election and use it to try to 0:13:10.480 --> 0:13:14.800 like fraud do fraud. And everyone's getting really hung up 0:13:14.840 --> 0:13:16.880 on this thing about like trying to like the court 0:13:16.920 --> 0:13:19.680 having to prove that he knew he was lying, which 0:13:19.679 --> 0:13:21.840 is kind of like an incidental thing to the actual 0:13:22.800 --> 0:13:24.800 like like the actual stuff is getting charged for we'll 0:13:24.800 --> 0:13:27.000 get into it, but like like it's not just that 0:13:27.040 --> 0:13:29.079 he was lying that he was like actively trying to 0:13:29.120 --> 0:13:32.360 get a bunch of state officials to like appoint him. Yeah, 0:13:32.400 --> 0:13:34.640 but but you know, this has led to some just 0:13:34.640 --> 0:13:37.640 like absolutely hilarious shit from Republicans who are like, none 0:13:37.640 --> 0:13:40.000 of you can prove that Trump knew he was lying, 0:13:40.480 --> 0:13:42.880 Like there's there's no way to know Trump is Trump 0:13:42.960 --> 0:13:46.280 is so Trump that like you can't you can't, you 0:13:46.320 --> 0:13:48.959 can't convict him lying because he maybe maybe you just 0:13:49.000 --> 0:13:49.440 didn't know. 0:13:49.600 --> 0:13:51.600 It's like, yeah, guys, that may not be the defense 0:13:51.679 --> 0:13:52.600 you think it is. 0:13:52.720 --> 0:13:56.240 No, this motherfucker is so dumb, you. 0:13:56.200 --> 0:13:58.439 Can't like this guy didn't even know if he's full 0:13:58.480 --> 0:13:58.840 of shit. 0:14:00.120 --> 0:14:00.840 It's so good. 0:14:01.520 --> 0:14:04.800 It's it's like arguing that somebody who shoots two or 0:14:04.840 --> 0:14:07.640 three people to death is not guilty because he had 0:14:07.640 --> 0:14:10.040 his eyes closed, was pulling the trigger, he didn't know 0:14:10.040 --> 0:14:12.480 where he was shooting. That's not a crime. 0:14:15.240 --> 0:14:17.080 The other one, the only one they've been pulling, is 0:14:17.120 --> 0:14:21.000 the old like he didn't know it was illegal, which 0:14:21.120 --> 0:14:22.960 I wish that that. 0:14:23.080 --> 0:14:27.160 Is absolutely not how the law works. But this is 0:14:27.400 --> 0:14:27.960 you know, who. 0:14:27.880 --> 0:14:29.640 Made that not how the law works. 0:14:29.680 --> 0:14:32.840 By the way, this is all you can tell them, Like, 0:14:32.840 --> 0:14:34.640 none of these people have ever like had to deal 0:14:34.720 --> 0:14:37.280 with the legal system at all ever, except for baby, 0:14:37.480 --> 0:14:38.760 Like I don't know, like what are two of these 0:14:38.760 --> 0:14:44.320 guys like probably caught weird charges for like unregulated securities 0:14:44.360 --> 0:14:45.720 selling or some shit, but like. 0:14:46.680 --> 0:14:47.560 Whom amongst us? 0:14:47.720 --> 0:14:47.960 You know? 0:14:48.400 --> 0:14:50.800 Yeah yeah, but yeah. So so the Republican side of 0:14:50.800 --> 0:14:54.000 it's been very funny. Okay, So before we get into 0:14:54.160 --> 0:14:58.440 what like specific things they're going after Trump for, I 0:14:58.960 --> 0:15:03.320 want to like talk about what his actual what Trump's 0:15:03.360 --> 0:15:05.640 actual plan was, because I think a lot of it's 0:15:05.680 --> 0:15:09.360 kind of been forgotten. So the first plan, and this 0:15:09.400 --> 0:15:11.480 is the part that is that is not actually in 0:15:11.520 --> 0:15:14.760 this trial at all, right, like not really likes his 0:15:14.880 --> 0:15:18.960 initial plan to steal the election was that. Okay, So 0:15:19.080 --> 0:15:22.320 one of the things that happened in twenty sixteen was 0:15:22.360 --> 0:15:25.040 that like absentee voters like over like not a woman, 0:15:25.040 --> 0:15:28.360 but absentee voters like swung enormously Democrat, right, And that 0:15:28.400 --> 0:15:29.760 was one of the things Trump had been using to 0:15:29.760 --> 0:15:32.600 prove there was like voter fraud or whatever. And then 0:15:32.680 --> 0:15:35.520 you know, COVID happened, and so Trump had this, like 0:15:35.560 --> 0:15:38.120 you know, had a plan which was like on a 0:15:38.200 --> 0:15:40.560 what he's like, okay, so on election night, it's going 0:15:40.600 --> 0:15:42.640 to look like I won because they're only going to 0:15:42.640 --> 0:15:44.800 have counted, like they're only going to have counted the 0:15:44.880 --> 0:15:46.320 votes that were like done in person, and those are 0:15:46.320 --> 0:15:49.440 overwhelmingly Trump. And I remember like that night, like having 0:15:49.440 --> 0:15:51.120 to tell all my friends like no, no, no, these 0:15:51.120 --> 0:15:52.960 are not the real results. This is this is this 0:15:53.000 --> 0:15:54.960 is just the in person votes. The absentie votes are coming. 0:15:55.040 --> 0:15:55.360 Yeah. 0:15:55.400 --> 0:15:57.480 And his initial plan was to try to just like 0:15:57.520 --> 0:16:00.680 declare victory that night, basically trying to declear victory immediately 0:16:00.680 --> 0:16:03.080 and then get everyone to stop counting. And that didn't work, 0:16:03.320 --> 0:16:06.080 Like even like even Fox News would have eventually like 0:16:06.120 --> 0:16:07.920 stopped playing along with it. Like this got to make 0:16:07.960 --> 0:16:11.000 a huge trouble with Trump because they like called Arizona. 0:16:11.120 --> 0:16:13.840 Yeah he's still pissed that. 0:16:14.240 --> 0:16:18.200 Yeah now and again like this this didn't work, so 0:16:18.480 --> 0:16:20.920 they didn't like he's not being tried for that, even 0:16:20.920 --> 0:16:24.480 though that was also very blatantly steal the election. What 0:16:24.480 --> 0:16:26.880 what they are charging him for was so after after 0:16:26.960 --> 0:16:28.360 so there was like that stuff, and there was all 0:16:28.400 --> 0:16:30.520 these like stop to vote mobs that kept showing up 0:16:30.520 --> 0:16:33.160 in places, Yes, stop the count, right, yeah, yeah, it's 0:16:33.160 --> 0:16:34.640 it's not the count. But then also in some places 0:16:34.640 --> 0:16:36.200 they were like we need to count more and somebody. 0:16:36.280 --> 0:16:37.960 Yeah stop, Yeah, it was like it was a it 0:16:38.000 --> 0:16:41.960 was a whole thing. But you know what, once that fails, right, 0:16:42.040 --> 0:16:44.480 Trump and his coup plotters are like legal people are 0:16:44.520 --> 0:16:47.560 just sort of like freestyling it. And that's the part 0:16:47.600 --> 0:16:49.520 where you get to the actual conspiracies that he's being 0:16:49.600 --> 0:16:52.520 charged with here. But before before we get to those conspiracies, 0:16:52.560 --> 0:16:54.000 do you know what else is a conspiracy? 0:16:55.440 --> 0:16:59.080 The sence of products and services which you think will 0:16:59.120 --> 0:17:00.400 improve your life. 0:17:00.720 --> 0:17:04.000 How cheap they are, that's the conspiracy. Yeah, they've lowered 0:17:04.000 --> 0:17:06.320 the price so much it is illegal. 0:17:06.920 --> 0:17:08.160 Of all products and services. 0:17:09.000 --> 0:17:09.200 Yeah. 0:17:09.240 --> 0:17:15.679 Wow, that's defacial news. Incredible news. We're back, uh and 0:17:15.920 --> 0:17:18.720 uh yeah, I've got some good news for you. We 0:17:18.760 --> 0:17:23.920 are all sponsored this week by three shipping crates of 0:17:24.320 --> 0:17:28.719 illegal contraband Marlboro cigarettes that are Buddy Jimmy over at 0:17:28.760 --> 0:17:32.200 the Docks managed to get so six bucks of pack. Guys, 0:17:32.600 --> 0:17:35.240 six bucks a pack, just you know, send them to 0:17:35.240 --> 0:17:38.800 to Jimmy at ProtonMail dot com. He'll he'll mail you cigarettes. 0:17:38.840 --> 0:17:40.960 You know, you've venmo him the cash, He'll send you 0:17:41.000 --> 0:17:41.719 some cigarettes. 0:17:43.040 --> 0:17:43.480 There you go. 0:17:44.680 --> 0:17:48.200 This is probably less illegal than anything we're talking about, right, now. 0:17:48.359 --> 0:17:51.720 Yeah, almost certainly. Look, it's not against the law to 0:17:51.840 --> 0:17:55.480 sell cigarettes that that you don't pay taxes on. I 0:17:55.480 --> 0:17:57.560 think we can all agree that that's fine. 0:17:58.040 --> 0:18:02.800 Actually, no, man, I think you legally can do that 0:18:02.800 --> 0:18:04.880 if you're selling it in an airport, if you're. 0:18:04.760 --> 0:18:06.760 Selling it in an airport. Yeah, if it's duty free, right. 0:18:06.800 --> 0:18:11.679 And I, because I have such a childlike imagination, the 0:18:11.680 --> 0:18:16.520 whole world is really my airport. Ergo, we can always 0:18:16.520 --> 0:18:19.040 sell tax free cigarettes here at cool Zone Media. 0:18:19.960 --> 0:18:22.600 That's why we have the small plane that takes off 0:18:22.640 --> 0:18:25.560 from Roma's house every day. It's like a remote control plane. 0:18:25.680 --> 0:18:29.719 But that's right, that's right. From all textle it technically counts. 0:18:30.000 --> 0:18:33.160 And we are also allowed to run those those Joe 0:18:33.200 --> 0:18:38.000 camel ads again, so you know, everybody who's nineties nostalgic, 0:18:38.640 --> 0:18:41.640 there you go once you made it all right. 0:18:41.680 --> 0:18:44.040 So the first conspiracy thing that he's getting charged with 0:18:44.280 --> 0:18:47.639 is the like fake electors thing. He also has like 0:18:47.800 --> 0:18:51.119 six unnamed co conspirators, and we know we probably know 0:18:51.160 --> 0:18:54.320 who like five of them are. So the first one, 0:18:54.359 --> 0:18:59.119 obviously is Rudy Giuliotti, who is having the time of 0:18:59.160 --> 0:19:02.439 his life. Question Mark he is he is like he 0:19:02.560 --> 0:19:09.119 is melting so funny TV Like it's the second one 0:19:09.160 --> 0:19:13.520 is probably John Eastman. And this is interesting because Eastman 0:19:13.840 --> 0:19:17.000 is the guy who he's like the legal mind behind 0:19:17.000 --> 0:19:21.480 in January sixth. He's the guy who like thinks that 0:19:21.520 --> 0:19:24.760 he's found a loophole in the law that allows like 0:19:24.920 --> 0:19:29.000 the vice president to refuse to certify the election. Yeah, 0:19:29.040 --> 0:19:31.160 and so this is I don't want to make something 0:19:31.200 --> 0:19:33.520 clear at the outset, like he does not have like 0:19:33.720 --> 0:19:35.439 Pence does not have the power to do this. 0:19:35.720 --> 0:19:36.840 You're not allowed to do that. 0:19:36.960 --> 0:19:39.239 No, no, like they can't do this right like like 0:19:39.280 --> 0:19:41.960 this is if Pence had gone along with this, that 0:19:42.000 --> 0:19:44.159 would have been a coup, right like that, Yeah, they 0:19:44.200 --> 0:19:45.720 call this a coup. 0:19:46.080 --> 0:19:48.760 Like there's not a clause in the constitution that says 0:19:49.080 --> 0:19:52.200 unless this guy doesn't want to have an election, this. 0:19:52.119 --> 0:19:58.880 Is not right. It's seemed like admiralty flag ta legal conspiracy. 0:19:59.000 --> 0:20:06.159 That's yeah, Yeah, guaranteed it came from Reddit before he found. 0:20:05.880 --> 0:20:10.720 It's it's some it's some real bullshit like this somehow Again, 0:20:10.800 --> 0:20:12.840 this is the legal basis for what they were trying 0:20:12.840 --> 0:20:15.720 to do in January sixth. I I don't know words. 0:20:15.800 --> 0:20:19.560 Words fail me, like tragedy is farce of the Brooks 0:20:19.560 --> 0:20:21.760 Brothers riot, I guess, but like this is like farst 0:20:21.800 --> 0:20:23.320 number three. I don't know. 0:20:24.280 --> 0:20:27.120 I think the first one. The first one was Nixon 0:20:27.480 --> 0:20:32.199 extending the Vietnam War in order to uh win his election. 0:20:32.680 --> 0:20:35.480 The farce was the Brooks Brothers riot. And now we're 0:20:35.520 --> 0:20:37.880 at like lead poisoning brain damage. 0:20:38.119 --> 0:20:40.760 Yeah, like this is this is this is Marks failed 0:20:40.760 --> 0:20:43.240 to consider that you could have a third or fourth. 0:20:42.960 --> 0:20:46.800 Farce, like he only got to one. 0:20:47.800 --> 0:20:50.520 So speaking speaking of farce, So the third the third 0:20:50.800 --> 0:20:53.920 Koke s Buwer is probably Sidney Powell, who apparently the 0:20:54.400 --> 0:20:57.960 last I heard about Sidney Powell, He's currently like owns 0:20:57.960 --> 0:20:59.960 a bed and breakfast and spends all of his time 0:21:00.000 --> 0:21:03.160 I'm talking with his guest about the Trump administration. So things 0:21:03.160 --> 0:21:05.000 are going great for Sidney Powell, who is on. 0:21:04.960 --> 0:21:08.080 A Trump more or less what I would like him 0:21:08.080 --> 0:21:08.400 to do. 0:21:09.400 --> 0:21:11.679 Yeah. Yeah, I mean if you can just keep sticking 0:21:11.720 --> 0:21:13.320 to doing that, yeah great. 0:21:13.960 --> 0:21:16.919 Yeah. So the fourth guy is Jeffrey Clark, who doesn't 0:21:16.920 --> 0:21:19.600 really matter. The fifth guy I just want to like, Okay, 0:21:19.600 --> 0:21:23.439 so I I partially there's only like only really Giuliani 0:21:23.480 --> 0:21:27.720 Eastman in Powell matter. But the fifth guy is named 0:21:27.920 --> 0:21:29.440 Kenneth Chelsea Bro. 0:21:30.200 --> 0:21:35.160 Which that's okay, now you're fucking with us. Now, that's 0:21:35.240 --> 0:21:37.840 not a name. That's not a name I got nothing. 0:21:37.920 --> 0:21:41.680 I don't know, like a name they have like dug 0:21:41.760 --> 0:21:44.760 up members of like the old Chelsea arisocracy that like 0:21:45.560 --> 0:21:49.159 I I got, I don't know. 0:21:49.440 --> 0:21:51.920 I've never never been this angry in my life. That's 0:21:52.040 --> 0:21:55.199 not a naked ship now, like that's that. 0:21:55.800 --> 0:22:01.560 Okay, it's not Cheese Bro, it's Chelsea Brow. I name 0:22:01.760 --> 0:22:02.879 no idea, it's it's. 0:22:02.800 --> 0:22:05.720 C H E s E Bro chessa Bro. 0:22:07.400 --> 0:22:07.760 I don't know. 0:22:07.960 --> 0:22:11.680 There's no version of how you outside of Boston. 0:22:12.359 --> 0:22:12.679 Yeah, I. 0:22:14.760 --> 0:22:17.240 Know Bro? 0:22:19.400 --> 0:22:27.200 Is he Bro? Okay? So we should also she's really 0:22:28.040 --> 0:22:28.879 that's so bad? 0:22:29.480 --> 0:22:31.720 Yeah no, I know a guy from Central California with 0:22:31.760 --> 0:22:32.680 that name that. 0:22:32.680 --> 0:22:36.720 Is that is viscerally upsetting. Okay, So just speaking of 0:22:36.800 --> 0:22:40.560 viscerally upsetting, So we should find everyone how we should 0:22:40.560 --> 0:22:43.520 remind everyone how American elections work because it's it's really 0:22:43.560 --> 0:22:46.679 one of the worst systems anyone's ever developed. So okay. So, 0:22:46.760 --> 0:22:49.280 like as as most people probably know, you don't directly 0:22:49.280 --> 0:22:50.160 elect the president. 0:22:50.720 --> 0:22:51.200 What you do. 0:22:51.280 --> 0:22:56.560 Instead is each each state, like you vote, well, okay, 0:22:56.600 --> 0:23:01.040 so sorry, let's run this up. Each state selects ecs. Now, 0:23:01.040 --> 0:23:02.920 there's nothing in the constitution that says you have to 0:23:02.920 --> 0:23:07.479 select electors by like voting for them. It's just that 0:23:07.520 --> 0:23:10.120 every state chose to do that. There's like a whole 0:23:10.160 --> 0:23:13.840 crank theory of Republican like legal jurisprudences where they're trying 0:23:13.840 --> 0:23:15.520 to use that to be able to just like not 0:23:16.160 --> 0:23:19.920 basically not have normal elections. But you know so because 0:23:19.960 --> 0:23:21.840 this is like dog shit, right, Like, it's bad for 0:23:21.880 --> 0:23:23.879 a number of reasons. The first obvious one is that 0:23:24.040 --> 0:23:27.200 like this means you the US does not have one person, 0:23:27.240 --> 0:23:31.240 one vote at all. Like the entire American political system 0:23:31.320 --> 0:23:33.600 is just a giant violation of the deference of one person, 0:23:33.640 --> 0:23:36.359 one vote because people's votes are just worth more than 0:23:36.400 --> 0:23:39.520 others because of the electors. The second thing that's really bad, 0:23:39.680 --> 0:23:43.399 right is again, like those individual electors can technically vote 0:23:43.440 --> 0:23:46.360 like however they want to, So you could you could 0:23:46.400 --> 0:23:48.280 be an elector who's posted to vote for someone and 0:23:48.320 --> 0:23:51.280 then vote for someone else. It's actually happened. Although I'm 0:23:51.320 --> 0:23:53.480 not mattering, but like one of Gore's electors I think 0:23:53.520 --> 0:23:56.720 defected to what's his name? The third guy who ran 0:23:59.119 --> 0:24:00.000 I can't remember his name? 0:24:00.200 --> 0:24:05.160 Someone in twenty sixteen or sorry guy, yeah, someone did 0:24:05.160 --> 0:24:09.520 in twenty sixteen as well. I think rogue electa. There's 0:24:09.560 --> 0:24:11.159 a little bit of like, I don't know, this is 0:24:11.160 --> 0:24:12.680 a good I was going to talk about different between 0:24:12.680 --> 0:24:16.400 procedural and substantive democracy. I could talk about it now 0:24:16.520 --> 0:24:18.320 or later, but I think it relates to what you're 0:24:18.320 --> 0:24:23.200 talking about. Sure, yeah, no, do it now. But what 0:24:23.320 --> 0:24:26.680 out Yeah there were there were ten in twenty sixteen. Wow, 0:24:27.440 --> 0:24:29.359 face Spotted Eagle is the one I'm thinking of. Someone 0:24:29.440 --> 0:24:32.879 voted for face Spotted Eagle. But yeah, okay, So one 0:24:32.960 --> 0:24:34.719 thing I wanted to talk about, like with relation to 0:24:34.760 --> 0:24:37.600 what you're saying here, is like the difference between procedural 0:24:37.640 --> 0:24:40.880 and substantive democracy, because I think it's really important when 0:24:40.880 --> 0:24:43.439 we're looking at like what's happening in the US. So 0:24:43.480 --> 0:24:46.360 when we talk about like a lot of this language 0:24:46.400 --> 0:24:49.480 comes from the like nineteen nineties obsession with transitioned to 0:24:49.560 --> 0:24:53.000 democracy that happens a lot in political science, right, like 0:24:53.200 --> 0:24:55.160 and history to an extent, where we were looking at 0:24:55.200 --> 0:24:59.280 these like post Soviet countries and post colonial countries and 0:24:59.320 --> 0:25:02.800 as they like move move towards this like what's considered 0:25:02.800 --> 0:25:06.200 a democracy in the kind of neoliberal frame we talked 0:25:06.200 --> 0:25:09.640 about procedural and substantive democracy. So procedural democracy are things 0:25:09.640 --> 0:25:12.919 which have the institutions and procedures in place. You vote, 0:25:13.760 --> 0:25:18.160 there are elections, the ballots are cast, and that results 0:25:18.160 --> 0:25:20.359 in this case the elector is going to electoral college 0:25:20.359 --> 0:25:22.320 and the e actual college deliver as a president. And 0:25:22.359 --> 0:25:25.480 then substantive democracy is where people have a substantive say, 0:25:26.800 --> 0:25:29.880 a means of deciding who is in charge, right who 0:25:29.960 --> 0:25:32.399 runs a state, And the US is moving further and 0:25:32.440 --> 0:25:36.560 further from substantive democracy, Like it's been interesting to see 0:25:36.600 --> 0:25:39.679 people bringing that like because of course that nineteen nineties 0:25:39.720 --> 0:25:41.800 discourse was centered heavily in the US right as like 0:25:41.840 --> 0:25:44.920 the paragon of democratic virtue, and then it was used 0:25:44.920 --> 0:25:46.879 to condescend to other countries and be like, oh, you're 0:25:46.920 --> 0:25:51.199 not a fully consolidated democracy with them, Lindzen Stepan. If 0:25:51.200 --> 0:25:52.679 people want to look up Linds and step Kind, if 0:25:52.680 --> 0:25:55.080 they're reboard, they can. But they talk about like a 0:25:55.119 --> 0:25:59.000 consolidated democracy being one where democracy is the only game 0:25:59.040 --> 0:26:02.439 in town, and all of this stuff like was heavily 0:26:02.480 --> 0:26:05.280 based on kind of aspiring to be the US, right 0:26:05.320 --> 0:26:07.720 countries in Africa East when you're perspiring to be an 0:26:07.760 --> 0:26:09.840 American democracy. And it's very funny now to see that 0:26:09.840 --> 0:26:13.720 the US doesn't fit most definitions of a substantive democracy 0:26:13.800 --> 0:26:16.200 or a consolidated one, Like it's not the only game 0:26:16.240 --> 0:26:18.520 in town for millions of Americans anymore. 0:26:19.400 --> 0:26:19.680 Now. 0:26:20.320 --> 0:26:21.760 It's highly amusing. 0:26:22.119 --> 0:26:26.119 My other amusing is what I would call it, absolutely James. 0:26:26.200 --> 0:26:28.399 Yeah, it's funny. It's just funny. Nothing bad will happen, 0:26:28.440 --> 0:26:29.920 it's fine. 0:26:30.040 --> 0:26:32.439 Yeah. My other favorite example of like those of like 0:26:32.720 --> 0:26:35.960 how bullshit those like democracy theorists were was like every 0:26:36.040 --> 0:26:38.439 single one of those people the moment that Zapetas the 0:26:38.480 --> 0:26:40.919 uprising happened, just like immediately shut the fuck up and 0:26:41.000 --> 0:26:43.960 never mentioned it ever, Like it just does not come 0:26:44.080 --> 0:26:45.760 up like in the thing. 0:26:47.240 --> 0:26:49.159 Yeah, I mean a lot of the like, yeah, a 0:26:49.200 --> 0:26:50.960 lot of them really had a lot of them also 0:26:51.080 --> 0:26:54.879 were like too busy looking at things, and like in Spain, 0:26:55.040 --> 0:26:58.239 right people looked at Spain's quote unquote transition as one 0:26:58.240 --> 0:27:01.080 of the earlier models and then went on to model 0:27:01.119 --> 0:27:05.840 things off Spain. Spain is at best an incomplete transition now, right, 0:27:05.880 --> 0:27:08.320 people paying attention to the most recent elections will maybe 0:27:08.359 --> 0:27:11.320 have noticed this, Like Spain is Spain is not a 0:27:11.359 --> 0:27:13.359 country where democracy is the only game in town. Right, 0:27:13.359 --> 0:27:15.239 They had an attempted to cop it in nineteen eighty one, 0:27:15.440 --> 0:27:18.440 and so like then they're kind of looking backwards off 0:27:18.440 --> 0:27:22.040 something because Spain was satisfactorly democratic for them, but it 0:27:22.080 --> 0:27:26.480 certainly wasn't for a lot of Spanish people. So yeah, 0:27:26.480 --> 0:27:27.000 not a big fani. 0:27:27.200 --> 0:27:29.359 Yeah, And I don't know about you guys, but I 0:27:29.400 --> 0:27:34.160 think there's nothing wrong with the way we did. Side 0:27:34.200 --> 0:27:35.160 things are democracies. 0:27:36.160 --> 0:27:38.960 God gave it on the tablets to some old white men. 0:27:39.520 --> 0:27:42.480 You'll have slaves, and that that is good. 0:27:43.600 --> 0:27:43.879 Great. 0:27:44.000 --> 0:27:46.480 Yeah, It's been funny also watching those people trying to 0:27:46.560 --> 0:27:48.399 like actually go back and look at like at what 0:27:48.480 --> 0:27:51.240 point the US became like a democracy in any real sense, 0:27:51.280 --> 0:27:54.600 And it's like, really like, if you're going to do 0:27:54.640 --> 0:27:57.280 this seriously, you cannot argue that it was a democracy 0:27:57.359 --> 0:28:00.119 until like after Jim Crow, so like really like like 0:28:00.200 --> 0:28:04.520 the sixties and even then, so like, I don't know, 0:28:04.640 --> 0:28:07.000 like there's been a lot of attempts to sort of 0:28:07.040 --> 0:28:09.560 make this stuff work. But then also you have all 0:28:09.600 --> 0:28:13.520 of this bullshit. Where again, like because because it's based 0:28:13.520 --> 0:28:15.840 on this elector shit, you can like this is how 0:28:15.840 --> 0:28:17.399 Trump was able to like to try to do all 0:28:17.480 --> 0:28:22.199 this very weird stuff. And this is the sort of 0:28:22.320 --> 0:28:23.840 you know, this is the part where we get into 0:28:23.840 --> 0:28:28.280 like Trump's second plan, which his plan, and this is 0:28:28.320 --> 0:28:31.160 the one he's actually getting charged for. So his thing 0:28:31.320 --> 0:28:33.000 was he was trying to get states to just like 0:28:33.119 --> 0:28:37.560 ignore the popular vote and decertified. So there's this process 0:28:37.600 --> 0:28:40.840 where like there's a day on which like the electors 0:28:40.920 --> 0:28:44.720 that do the electoral votes are like certified, and so 0:28:44.840 --> 0:28:46.160 his he was he was trying to do a couple 0:28:46.160 --> 0:28:48.440 of things before that. He was trying to like get 0:28:48.560 --> 0:28:51.880 the actual electors like not certified and then have like 0:28:51.920 --> 0:28:54.480 another set of electors and pointed that would vote for him, 0:28:55.000 --> 0:28:56.920 and then that didn't work, and so he was trying 0:28:56.920 --> 0:28:59.920 to get so like on that same day, there were 0:28:59.920 --> 0:29:03.080 also a bunch of slates of electors that like like 0:29:03.240 --> 0:29:05.800 did like a fake appointment thing, basically like trying to 0:29:05.840 --> 0:29:11.560 claim they were the real electors in a bunch of states. Yeah, 0:29:12.240 --> 0:29:14.800 I think, yeah, And this one was funny too because 0:29:14.800 --> 0:29:17.479 like some of the people who were like who like 0:29:17.800 --> 0:29:20.360 were on these slates, like didn't know that they weren't 0:29:20.360 --> 0:29:23.400 the real electors, like they had just been told that 0:29:23.440 --> 0:29:26.360 they were the real so they like unwittingly were like 0:29:26.400 --> 0:29:31.120 part of this coup attempt. And so the the indictment, 0:29:31.600 --> 0:29:33.400 so that that that that's the second part, and so 0:29:33.440 --> 0:29:35.160 that also was kind of falling apart, and so then 0:29:35.160 --> 0:29:37.479 we get to the sort of third thing, which is 0:29:37.640 --> 0:29:40.720 this entire effort to get Mike Pence to not certify 0:29:40.720 --> 0:29:43.720 the election or so that district versions one was that 0:29:43.720 --> 0:29:46.040 he doesn't certify the election at all, and the second 0:29:46.080 --> 0:29:49.800 version of the conspiracy was like, so there were these 0:29:49.800 --> 0:29:51.800 states set up where Trump had put like a second 0:29:51.840 --> 0:29:54.680 slate of electors, and the plan was to like have 0:29:55.680 --> 0:29:57.680 those are like contested states, and so the plan was 0:29:57.720 --> 0:30:01.080 to have Pence say that like none of those states 0:30:01.080 --> 0:30:03.760 had actually voudly selected electors, so their votes don't matter, 0:30:03.840 --> 0:30:05.960 and then just like say that Trump won the election. 0:30:06.560 --> 0:30:08.080 And none of this makes any And the reason this 0:30:08.120 --> 0:30:10.360 is like incomprehensible is like none of this makes any sense, right, 0:30:10.360 --> 0:30:16.040 Like this is all just gibberish, that's bullshit. Yeah, but 0:30:16.040 --> 0:30:22.800 but into this mess drops Danny Quail. Now I think everyone, 0:30:23.400 --> 0:30:26.120 so you two know who Daddy Quail is. I I'm 0:30:26.160 --> 0:30:28.760 realizing I was running into people when I when I've 0:30:28.760 --> 0:30:30.600 been talking about this sort of story I'm about to tell. 0:30:30.720 --> 0:30:33.080 Who don't know who Danny Quayle is. And I feel 0:30:33.080 --> 0:30:35.960 I have a moral obligation to introduce this guy. 0:30:36.640 --> 0:30:40.840 Yeah, give the man his full name here, James Danforth Quail. 0:30:40.960 --> 0:30:43.200 Oh god, I didn't know his name was dann fourth 0:30:44.320 --> 0:30:48.760 Oh yeah, oh yeah. Determinism at its finest. 0:30:48.960 --> 0:30:52.600 Yeah, so Quail, I think it is probably most famous 0:30:52.680 --> 0:30:59.640 for So she was Bush's vice president, right, and so okay, 0:30:59.640 --> 0:31:01.440 So I want to tell the actual folls. So the 0:31:01.800 --> 0:31:03.680 common version of the story that happens is that he 0:31:03.720 --> 0:31:05.240 doesn't know he didn't know how to sell potato, and 0:31:05.240 --> 0:31:07.760 that's true, but the actual story is so much funnier 0:31:07.760 --> 0:31:11.920 than that. So okay, Quail is So okay, Quail is 0:31:11.920 --> 0:31:14.760 is George W. Bush's vice president. Right. It's nineteen ninety two, 0:31:15.040 --> 0:31:16.800 like the like they're on, they're like starting to go 0:31:16.840 --> 0:31:21.400 into election season, and Quail goes to like this spelling 0:31:21.480 --> 0:31:24.000 bee that's happening in this elementary school to like promote 0:31:24.000 --> 0:31:30.800 some random harm. Yeah, and so so kid. He asked 0:31:30.840 --> 0:31:33.360 this kid to spell potato, and the kid walks up 0:31:33.400 --> 0:31:36.200 and the kid spells potato correctly. This kid is like 0:31:36.360 --> 0:31:43.680 eight right, this is like it is like mighty so 0:31:44.280 --> 0:31:47.880 and then I Quail looks at it. It looks at 0:31:47.880 --> 0:31:50.240 the Apparently they had a card that was spelled wrong. 0:31:50.320 --> 0:31:52.520 But Quail doesn't realize that the card is spelled wrong, 0:31:52.920 --> 0:31:55.040 so he goes to the board. He looks at the 0:31:55.120 --> 0:31:56.560 kid and goes but you need to ask someone to 0:31:56.560 --> 0:31:59.560 the end. And this kid is just baffled because she's 0:31:59.560 --> 0:32:00.480 spelled it, know correct? 0:32:00.560 --> 0:32:04.480 What you mean? Are you talking about the vice president 0:32:04.520 --> 0:32:08.080 of the United That kid's an anarchist. Now, like there's there's. 0:32:07.920 --> 0:32:10.440 No way someone did a follow up with him. Apparently 0:32:10.440 --> 0:32:12.480 he liked he's like a small business owner or something, 0:32:12.520 --> 0:32:14.080 and he just tells the story all the time. 0:32:15.200 --> 0:32:18.640 Very funny, but okay, this was at a period of 0:32:18.640 --> 0:32:22.240 American history like this, like is one of the reasons 0:32:22.240 --> 0:32:22.959 that George H. W. 0:32:23.040 --> 0:32:26.880 Bush didn't win re election. Like this broke twelve unbroken 0:32:27.000 --> 0:32:31.200 years of Republicans winning every single election based he. 0:32:31.240 --> 0:32:33.560 Does seem like a plant, Like I don't know if 0:32:33.600 --> 0:32:35.120 you've got some of his other ridiculous. 0:32:35.120 --> 0:32:38.720 Oh I'm this quote. Okay, so unless you think Quail 0:32:38.840 --> 0:32:40.920 just had like one flub, Like, no, he's just like this. 0:32:41.840 --> 0:32:43.840 I'm gonna read a couple of So there's like a 0:32:43.840 --> 0:32:45.960 bunch of people who spent a bunch of time extensively 0:32:46.040 --> 0:32:48.360 documenting Dan Quayle quotes because that's what you did on 0:32:48.400 --> 0:32:52.240 the internet in the nineties. Yeah, okay, the Holocaust was 0:32:52.280 --> 0:32:54.720 an obscene period in our nation's history, I mean this 0:32:54.800 --> 0:32:57.480 century's history. But we all lived in this century. I 0:32:57.520 --> 0:33:00.400 didn't live in this century. 0:33:01.960 --> 0:33:04.280 I feel like I want to diagram that one, like 0:33:04.360 --> 0:33:07.000 whats there? 0:33:08.200 --> 0:33:10.239 Yeah, well, cocaine was really kicking in. 0:33:11.000 --> 0:33:12.640 You know. She has this kind of in the same 0:33:12.640 --> 0:33:14.760 way that Trump has like this cant in which he 0:33:14.800 --> 0:33:18.200 does all of his incorporateensiable things, Like Quail also has 0:33:18.240 --> 0:33:21.080 a can't like he does this kind of thing where 0:33:21.080 --> 0:33:22.959 he does the like he says a sentence and then 0:33:22.960 --> 0:33:25.080 he says, I mean something else, I mean something else, 0:33:25.440 --> 0:33:27.560 and it does nothing. The follows from the other one. 0:33:28.000 --> 0:33:29.920 So she he does one of the other famous ones. 0:33:30.800 --> 0:33:33.600 Why he has always been a pivotal, pivotal role in 0:33:33.640 --> 0:33:35.480 the Pacific. It is in the Pacific. It is a 0:33:35.480 --> 0:33:37.280 part of the United States. That is an island that 0:33:37.400 --> 0:33:38.040 is right there. 0:33:39.320 --> 0:33:39.600 Wow. 0:33:40.240 --> 0:33:44.640 Fuck, that's very Famously, he went on to write large 0:33:44.680 --> 0:33:46.880 portions of Wikipedia, so that that makes. 0:33:46.720 --> 0:33:47.440 A lot of sense. 0:33:47.760 --> 0:33:48.480 It's so good. 0:33:49.720 --> 0:33:52.880 Yeah, quails are in Wikipedia calls him an intellectual, lightweight 0:33:52.920 --> 0:33:57.200 and incompetent individual. Well it's not untrue. 0:33:57.360 --> 0:33:58.719 Pretty hard to argue about that. 0:33:58.920 --> 0:34:02.920 Yeah, Mars is essentially in the same orbit. Mars is 0:34:02.920 --> 0:34:05.800 somewhat the same distance from the Sun, which is very important. 0:34:06.080 --> 0:34:09.200 We have seen pictures where the canals we believe and water. 0:34:09.520 --> 0:34:12.440 If there was water, that means there is oxygen. If oxygen, 0:34:12.480 --> 0:34:13.600 that means we can breathe. 0:34:14.239 --> 0:34:18.719 Oh god, Okay, Wow, there's a lot of science coming 0:34:18.760 --> 0:34:19.840 out of that statement. 0:34:19.880 --> 0:34:24.280 This man was vice president of the United States. We 0:34:24.440 --> 0:34:26.879 have a firm commitment to NATO. We are a part 0:34:26.920 --> 0:34:29.000 of NATO. We have a firm commitment to Europe. We 0:34:29.040 --> 0:34:33.319 are a part of Europe. Sure, yeah, he's so good. 0:34:33.480 --> 0:34:36.239 Well, you see, Maya, you just you you were not 0:34:36.440 --> 0:34:39.240 you are not up on your your geographic history. Because 0:34:39.239 --> 0:34:42.760 the mountain ranges in Scotland are the same mountain range 0:34:42.840 --> 0:34:47.120 as the Appellachians, so technically we are in Europe. 0:34:48.960 --> 0:34:49.640 In many ways. 0:34:49.800 --> 0:34:52.680 Damn Okay, I've been styled on by Dan Quail. 0:34:53.160 --> 0:34:56.799 There you go, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, now. 0:34:56.560 --> 0:34:58.880 Okay, other than the fact that it's really funny, like 0:34:58.920 --> 0:35:01.440 why why am I talking about Danny Quail And the 0:35:01.560 --> 0:35:04.640 answer is that, Okay. So remember Trump needs for his 0:35:04.800 --> 0:35:08.400 like completely nonsense thing to like even kind of go 0:35:08.520 --> 0:35:10.640 to the next step of failing. He needs to convince 0:35:10.680 --> 0:35:13.799 Mike Pence and not certify the election. And Pence is 0:35:13.840 --> 0:35:16.520 like legitimately going back and forward on this. He's like 0:35:16.560 --> 0:35:18.480 he's having this like moral dilemma and like he like 0:35:18.600 --> 0:35:22.000 wants to do it, but he's he's having problems making decisions, 0:35:22.000 --> 0:35:25.400 and so he calls his old friend Danny Quayle. And 0:35:25.800 --> 0:35:28.439 I think this is a really fascinating moment of sort 0:35:28.480 --> 0:35:31.840 of you know, like this, I think it's really fascinating 0:35:31.840 --> 0:35:36.000 indication of like how off the rails everything has gotten 0:35:36.800 --> 0:35:39.279 since we released to twenty sixteen, but like twenty twenty 0:35:39.360 --> 0:35:41.359 sort of just like accelerates the magnitude of this, which 0:35:41.360 --> 0:35:44.200 is that like Quail is like the human symbol of 0:35:44.239 --> 0:35:46.880 the decrepitness of American politics in the eighties and nineties, right, 0:35:46.920 --> 0:35:49.239 Like this is a guy who makes like s Nile 0:35:49.400 --> 0:35:52.759 Reguan look like a genius. And in twenty twenty and 0:35:52.800 --> 0:35:55.040 twenty twenty one, like Pence is supposed to be one 0:35:55.080 --> 0:35:57.120 of the like quote unquote adults in the room in 0:35:57.160 --> 0:36:01.239 twenty twenty and Pence goes to Quail and is like, 0:36:02.080 --> 0:36:04.160 what I need. I need to do this coup, Like 0:36:04.200 --> 0:36:06.000 I don't have a choice. I'm under so much pressure. 0:36:06.040 --> 0:36:08.800 And Danny Quail, the man who can't spell potato, instantly 0:36:08.840 --> 0:36:10.640 is like, no, what are you talking about, Like you 0:36:10.680 --> 0:36:15.440 can't do this coup, like obviously can't do this, and 0:36:15.440 --> 0:36:18.200 and Pence Pence just like argues with him. He's like no, no, 0:36:18.320 --> 0:36:19.719 Like he keeps arguing with him, like no, I have 0:36:19.800 --> 0:36:21.120 to do what I have to do it, and Quails 0:36:21.160 --> 0:36:23.600 like what are you talking about? Like of course you 0:36:23.640 --> 0:36:26.879 can't like not certify the election, Like what what are 0:36:26.880 --> 0:36:31.120 you doing? And this actually works and this convinces Pence 0:36:31.239 --> 0:36:34.719 not to not to actually certify the election, And so 0:36:35.200 --> 0:36:37.240 you know, we we have reached a point in history 0:36:37.480 --> 0:36:41.839 where like you can make an argument, I don't think 0:36:41.880 --> 0:36:44.280 it's correct, but you can make an argument that Danny 0:36:44.280 --> 0:36:46.960 fucking Quail saved the American Republic. 0:36:48.440 --> 0:36:54.920 They say it's just from two Republican presidentst I just 0:36:54.960 --> 0:36:55.520 I don't know. 0:36:55.560 --> 0:36:58.080 I can't get over this. It's just like Danny Quail 0:36:58.360 --> 0:37:01.520 is the voice of reason and modern ration and like, 0:37:02.440 --> 0:37:05.759 oh god, I don't know this country. 0:37:05.880 --> 0:37:08.120 It's bizarre. The whole thing is is bizarre. 0:37:08.600 --> 0:37:12.920 Yeah, it's it's bleak. We should do an ad brick. 0:37:13.160 --> 0:37:14.080 I don't have a pivot there. 0:37:14.640 --> 0:37:20.760 Speaking of auto golpe gulp down these products automatic maggs. 0:37:20.880 --> 0:37:24.839 Cool, and we are we are back to a bit 0:37:24.880 --> 0:37:28.560 more fraud. So okay, the other thing is being yeah, 0:37:28.600 --> 0:37:31.160 this is actually wait, this is actually fraud. No, I 0:37:31.160 --> 0:37:33.080 guess this is the fraud one. It's still a technically 0:37:33.080 --> 0:37:33.720 a fraud one. 0:37:33.920 --> 0:37:35.440 So that's part of it at least. 0:37:35.960 --> 0:37:38.399 Yeah. So so we we've reached the like third and 0:37:38.440 --> 0:37:42.239 fourth indictments. It's actually really funny if you go read 0:37:42.280 --> 0:37:44.760 the thing, all of the actual texts of the indictment 0:37:44.840 --> 0:37:48.080 with the evidence and stuff is all under the first indictment, 0:37:48.239 --> 0:37:50.480 and then the second, third, and fourth ones are like, yeah, 0:37:50.560 --> 0:37:52.960 go refer to ex paragraphs as like the first one. 0:37:53.160 --> 0:37:55.279 So there's the second, third, and fourth like charges are 0:37:55.400 --> 0:38:00.640 like like one paragraph long. But basically this is about 0:38:00.640 --> 0:38:03.359 the January sixth stuff. They spent much time listing like 0:38:03.440 --> 0:38:06.520 all of the random stuff that Trump said about the 0:38:06.560 --> 0:38:08.440 election that was not true. They also have a very 0:38:08.440 --> 0:38:10.680 funny list of all of the people who told him 0:38:10.880 --> 0:38:14.840 that like this stuff wasn't true, which includes Mike Pence, 0:38:15.160 --> 0:38:18.200 the leadership of the Justice Department, the Director of National Intelligence, 0:38:18.239 --> 0:38:21.440 the head of SISA, which is the Department of Homeland 0:38:21.480 --> 0:38:25.200 Security Cybersecurity Agency, a bunch of White House attorneys, like 0:38:25.239 --> 0:38:28.720 his own staff at all of his politicians was backing 0:38:28.840 --> 0:38:32.200 He's like every single person was like this is not real, 0:38:32.480 --> 0:38:35.480 and Trump was like, no, no, no, hold on, we 0:38:35.520 --> 0:38:38.239 can still win the election, you know. Okay. So there's 0:38:38.320 --> 0:38:40.440 like that stuff, and then there's the stuff that like 0:38:40.520 --> 0:38:44.799 he like specifically did to like try to pressure these 0:38:44.840 --> 0:38:50.600 state politicians into like certifying him as president. So like 0:38:50.760 --> 0:38:53.239 they he had a bunch of calls, and like his 0:38:53.400 --> 0:38:55.520 like staff people had a bunch of calls. We were 0:38:55.560 --> 0:38:58.920 like they tried to get like that the Speaker of 0:38:58.960 --> 0:39:01.880 the House in Arizona to do this by saying there 0:39:01.960 --> 0:39:04.600 was voting fraud, and the Speaker of the House was like, okay, 0:39:04.600 --> 0:39:09.040 there's no we haven't found any fraud. I'm gonna I'm 0:39:09.040 --> 0:39:11.600 gonna read from the thing co conspirator to concluded that 0:39:11.680 --> 0:39:13.840 he quote didn't know enough about the facts on the 0:39:13.840 --> 0:39:16.360 ground in Arizona, but nonetheless told the Speaker of the 0:39:16.400 --> 0:39:19.160 House to decertify and quote let the court sort it out, 0:39:19.239 --> 0:39:22.000 sort it out. So again, this is this is this 0:39:22.040 --> 0:39:25.480 is the Roger Stone strategy, but done like yes, so 0:39:25.760 --> 0:39:26.800 unbelievably poorly. 0:39:27.719 --> 0:39:28.959 Yeah. 0:39:29.440 --> 0:39:32.600 Yeah, So, And there's a bunch of sort of like lists. 0:39:32.640 --> 0:39:34.400 There's like all this list of like this like Trump 0:39:34.440 --> 0:39:38.080 does like identical stuff in like Michigan and Pennsylvania. There's 0:39:38.080 --> 0:39:40.080 like that phone call in Georgia he gets in trouble 0:39:40.160 --> 0:39:43.600 for some from Wisconsin. There's another thing he tried to 0:39:43.600 --> 0:39:45.359 do which I actually hadn't heard about this one. 0:39:45.960 --> 0:39:46.600 I don't know. 0:39:46.600 --> 0:39:48.520 It's either I just forgot it or I just never 0:39:48.600 --> 0:39:51.399 ran into it, where he was trying to like use 0:39:51.640 --> 0:39:54.960 Justice Department letterhead and like the signature of the Acting 0:39:54.960 --> 0:39:58.279 Attorney General to like send a fate like pretend to 0:39:58.360 --> 0:40:00.600 send a letter from the Justice Department to a bunch 0:40:00.600 --> 0:40:02.960 of states to tell them there was fraud and get 0:40:02.960 --> 0:40:04.279 them to like amazing. 0:40:05.200 --> 0:40:07.200 Yeah, since I'm sick and I can't come to school. 0:40:08.040 --> 0:40:08.279 Yeah. 0:40:08.440 --> 0:40:09.960 And the funny thing is the problem is that they 0:40:10.120 --> 0:40:12.480 so they try to there's a lot that's funny about that. 0:40:12.560 --> 0:40:14.719 I'm not gonna I'm not gonna see it. Yes, we 0:40:14.800 --> 0:40:16.320 gotta plaralize that fucker. 0:40:16.640 --> 0:40:20.120 It's so good. And the scheme falls apart because again 0:40:20.360 --> 0:40:23.120 the guy Trump appoints it as the acting Attorney general 0:40:23.239 --> 0:40:27.920 is like, no, like, you cannot just department and they 0:40:28.000 --> 0:40:30.160 keep trying to argue with him and it keeps not working. 0:40:31.920 --> 0:40:34.959 And this is where we get to another part of 0:40:35.000 --> 0:40:36.800 this whole thing that I this has been getting a 0:40:36.840 --> 0:40:40.000 lot of press attention and it's interesting, but I think 0:40:40.040 --> 0:40:42.640 there's more to the story that people haven't been talking about, 0:40:42.640 --> 0:40:45.759 which is so the guy who's probably Jeffrey Clark like 0:40:45.800 --> 0:40:48.280 gets into an argument with the deputy White House Council 0:40:48.719 --> 0:40:51.880 and the wut White House Council is you know, is telling? 0:40:52.680 --> 0:40:54.840 Is telling Jeffrey Clark, who thinks one of Trumps lawyers 0:40:54.880 --> 0:40:56.920 is telling him like like Trump can't stay in office. 0:40:56.920 --> 0:40:58.719 Like there's no version of this where Trump stays in 0:40:58.719 --> 0:41:02.480 office after January twentieth, and he says, quote, there would 0:41:02.520 --> 0:41:05.600 be riots in every major American City. And then the 0:41:05.600 --> 0:41:09.680 guy who's probably Clark says, quote, well, Deputy White House Counsel, 0:41:09.680 --> 0:41:13.040 that's why there's an Insurrection Act. And this is where 0:41:13.080 --> 0:41:15.240 we need to get to another a couple of interesting 0:41:15.280 --> 0:41:16.000 parts of the story. 0:41:16.800 --> 0:41:20.040 One, you know, one clear, when you're saying that's why 0:41:20.040 --> 0:41:23.319 we have an insurrection Act, you're saying, we can just 0:41:23.360 --> 0:41:27.000 shoot those people, yeah, in the streets, Like that is 0:41:27.040 --> 0:41:29.880 what that statement means. Yeah, and that is what the 0:41:29.880 --> 0:41:32.120 stakes were. Everybody was out in the streets in twenty 0:41:32.160 --> 0:41:33.200 twenty was aware of this. 0:41:33.840 --> 0:41:36.200 Yeah, and yeah, you know, this is the thing I 0:41:36.320 --> 0:41:37.680 kind of want to talk about, which is that, like 0:41:38.000 --> 0:41:42.080 part of the reason this coup fails is that so 0:41:42.360 --> 0:41:44.960 Trump is talking about doing the Insurrection Act twice in 0:41:44.960 --> 0:41:47.120 twenty twenty. Well, I guess once in twenty twenty. I 0:41:47.120 --> 0:41:48.400 think this might have been the second time. I've been 0:41:48.440 --> 0:41:50.759 twenty twenty one. But like in that last year, he 0:41:51.200 --> 0:41:54.080 tries to use the Insurrection Act against the uprising in 0:41:54.120 --> 0:41:58.480 twenty twenty, and his like his Chief of stat like 0:41:58.480 --> 0:41:59.920 like a bunch of like a bunch of generals and 0:42:00.200 --> 0:42:03.319 chief of staff like tell them the fuck off. And 0:42:03.760 --> 0:42:07.080 that's like part of the reason why this didn't happen, 0:42:07.120 --> 0:42:10.080 which which is interesting because like I don't know, like 0:42:10.160 --> 0:42:13.360 there there have been, like there have been times where 0:42:13.480 --> 0:42:16.200 the US Army like has been deployed against like riots 0:42:16.239 --> 0:42:18.240 like this, right like this this happened in the nineties, 0:42:19.440 --> 0:42:24.560 but in this situation, the army just like absolutely completely 0:42:24.600 --> 0:42:28.760 refuse to play ball. And we've we've gotten some really 0:42:28.840 --> 0:42:31.399 kind of interesting So the other thing that's happening here 0:42:31.520 --> 0:42:33.880 is like just the complete hollowing out of journalism as 0:42:33.880 --> 0:42:36.759 an institution where all of these people know all of 0:42:36.760 --> 0:42:39.280 the all these journalists like know a bunch of incredibly 0:42:39.280 --> 0:42:41.560 important stuff and they won't tell anyone because they they're 0:42:41.560 --> 0:42:44.640 saving it for their books, yep, and you know, and 0:42:44.680 --> 0:42:46.879 it's like among the things that we sort of learned 0:42:46.880 --> 0:42:48.960 in this period is like there there's basically this like 0:42:50.239 --> 0:42:52.319 I don't know what you call it, Like you could 0:42:52.400 --> 0:42:54.640 either call it like a quad um for it basically, 0:42:54.840 --> 0:42:57.040 or you could call it like a National Unity government 0:42:57.080 --> 0:43:02.600 which is in power for two weeks basically where Pelosi Miley, 0:43:02.719 --> 0:43:06.640 who's uh, he's uh, the chief of staff who's a general, 0:43:07.000 --> 0:43:10.319 like Mike Pence, Chuck Schumer and Mitch McConnell basically are 0:43:10.360 --> 0:43:13.719 like running the government for two weeks because they've successfully 0:43:13.719 --> 0:43:17.400 put together this counter coup where the like the military 0:43:17.400 --> 0:43:20.880 has refused to like go along with Trump like trying 0:43:20.880 --> 0:43:24.480 to overthrow the government. And this is very deeply I 0:43:24.480 --> 0:43:26.560 don't know. There's some very deeply interesting stuff here where 0:43:26.600 --> 0:43:29.000 there's there's a there's a book called Iolone Can Fix It, 0:43:29.480 --> 0:43:31.520 which a couple of journalists are coming out with and 0:43:31.560 --> 0:43:36.160 there's some interesting quotes from it from specifically General Mike Miley, 0:43:36.200 --> 0:43:37.759 who's like the chairman of the Joint chiefs of Staff, 0:43:37.800 --> 0:43:40.319 who was appointed by Trump. By the way, this this 0:43:40.360 --> 0:43:42.640 is this is an important thing because like Trump, there's 0:43:42.719 --> 0:43:45.800 like seven guys who are like absolute ghouls, like Mike Pompeo, 0:43:46.000 --> 0:43:48.640 like Cia ghoul who are just like look at this 0:43:48.680 --> 0:43:52.480 coup and are like no, and Miley stuff is wild. 0:43:52.600 --> 0:43:55.880 Like Miley directly can like in meetings, is comparing Trump 0:43:55.880 --> 0:43:59.080 to Hitler. He says, quote, yeah, this is a Reichstag moment. 0:43:59.160 --> 0:44:03.479 Miley told aids the Gospel of the Fearer, like and. 0:44:03.440 --> 0:44:05.680 There's there's a I talked about this a little bit 0:44:05.680 --> 0:44:08.680 ahead of earlier. There are some unconfirmed reports that Miley 0:44:08.719 --> 0:44:11.840 and a number of other like US military high ranking 0:44:11.880 --> 0:44:14.800 officers basically had like a book club, and one of 0:44:14.840 --> 0:44:17.400 the books they went through in twenty twenty was a 0:44:17.440 --> 0:44:20.080 book about the Nazis' rise to power in Germany. I 0:44:20.400 --> 0:44:22.000 kind of suspect it might have been Death of a 0:44:22.040 --> 0:44:24.880 Democracy because that was big at the time. But it 0:44:24.920 --> 0:44:28.320 would make sense because he's talking in substantial detail about 0:44:28.360 --> 0:44:31.080 like he's very you can tell he's very focused in 0:44:31.080 --> 0:44:34.000 this period on Nazis taking over the government, Like he 0:44:34.080 --> 0:44:35.280 talks about it a lot. 0:44:36.040 --> 0:44:38.600 Yeah, And I'm gonna read a couple other quotes from him. 0:44:39.160 --> 0:44:40.279 He has this thing where I think, I think he's 0:44:40.280 --> 0:44:42.319 talking about payoh here, where he's talking about like this 0:44:42.400 --> 0:44:45.080 coup and he says they may tribe, but they're not 0:44:45.080 --> 0:44:47.040 going to fucking succeed. He told them, you can't do 0:44:47.120 --> 0:44:48.840 this without the military. You can't do this without the 0:44:48.880 --> 0:44:51.200 CIA and the FBI. We're the guys with the guns. 0:44:51.520 --> 0:44:53.080 And he's right about this. And this is a really 0:44:53.120 --> 0:44:55.239 crucial thing that Trump fucks up about how to do 0:44:55.280 --> 0:44:59.760 a fascist coup is that you can't actually like fascist 0:44:59.800 --> 0:45:02.960 coup don't work without the at least passive acquiescence of 0:45:03.000 --> 0:45:05.879 the state. Like, if the state tries, if the army 0:45:05.960 --> 0:45:09.520 tries to stop you, your coup is not going to work, right, Like, 0:45:09.600 --> 0:45:12.320 unless you're someone like Franco who like has control of 0:45:12.360 --> 0:45:14.719 a huge portion of the army, if you try to 0:45:14.800 --> 0:45:17.600 do one of these sort of weird paramilitary things and 0:45:17.640 --> 0:45:21.120 the army just says no, like you're screwed. And this 0:45:21.360 --> 0:45:23.480 I think was always part of trump sort of problem 0:45:23.600 --> 0:45:26.799 was that, like, you know, if he'd sort of spent 0:45:26.920 --> 0:45:29.759 his time consolidating the kind of like fascist institutions, the 0:45:29.800 --> 0:45:32.000 neo cons set up, right, Like, if he'd spent his 0:45:32.080 --> 0:45:35.440 time like you know, actually like actually developing loyalty in 0:45:35.480 --> 0:45:37.799 the FBI and the CIA and like going through and 0:45:37.840 --> 0:45:42.160 like turning Department Homeland Security like you know, into like 0:45:42.520 --> 0:45:44.400 an even more fascist organization. 0:45:44.080 --> 0:45:45.120 He might have been able to do this. 0:45:45.560 --> 0:45:49.600 But like at the very end, like you have Miley 0:45:49.719 --> 0:45:52.080 saying this is this is on h right, this is 0:45:52.120 --> 0:45:56.600 on exercises right before the inauguration, he says, quote, here's 0:45:56.640 --> 0:45:59.240 the deal, guys, these guys are the not are Nazis, 0:45:59.239 --> 0:46:02.040 They're Bugalopo, They're proud voys. These are the same people 0:46:02.040 --> 0:46:04.840 we fought in World War two. Miley told them everyone 0:46:04.920 --> 0:46:07.440 in this room, whether you're a cop, whether you're a soldier, 0:46:07.719 --> 0:46:09.560 we're going to stop these guys to make sure we 0:46:09.560 --> 0:46:11.799 have a peaceful transfer of power. We're gonna put a 0:46:11.840 --> 0:46:14.560 steel ring around this city, and the Nazis aren't getting in. 0:46:16.440 --> 0:46:20.640 Like you know what, credit, Where's That's a pretty cool 0:46:20.719 --> 0:46:25.160 thing to get to have said, Yeah, so something like 0:46:25.840 --> 0:46:27.399 basically him and Zook off. 0:46:28.080 --> 0:46:33.520 Yeah, it's like all of like suddenly like the American 0:46:33.560 --> 0:46:35.600 like all of like the senior command of the American 0:46:35.680 --> 0:46:39.160 Army suddenly turned into like nineteen forty two American generals. 0:46:39.480 --> 0:46:41.160 It's like, I don't know. 0:46:41.200 --> 0:46:44.000 I guess again, I try to say this, I try 0:46:44.000 --> 0:46:46.480 to bring this up a lot to like more radical 0:46:46.520 --> 0:46:48.399 folks when you if you want to get a lot 0:46:48.400 --> 0:46:51.200 of like the centrist lib types on your side, you 0:46:51.200 --> 0:46:53.120 could do a lot worse than Hearkening back to that 0:46:53.160 --> 0:46:55.680 whole World War two thing, there's a lot of propaganda 0:46:55.760 --> 0:46:58.760 invested in getting guys like Millie to want to feel 0:46:58.880 --> 0:46:59.279 like that. 0:46:59.480 --> 0:47:01.440 So and in this case it works out for. 0:47:01.640 --> 0:47:05.640 Yeah, apparently, I don't know, Live Live Antifa has poor 0:47:05.760 --> 0:47:06.640 has pulled one out. 0:47:07.040 --> 0:47:11.279 I guess it's certainly better than if the head of 0:47:11.320 --> 0:47:14.719 the military had been like, I guess I'm fine with this, 0:47:14.880 --> 0:47:18.840 so yeah, what I don't know. Yeah, I have no 0:47:18.960 --> 0:47:23.719 complaints are his performance in that specific moment, uh, other 0:47:23.800 --> 0:47:27.160 than that they did actually get in so you know whatever, 0:47:27.360 --> 0:47:28.960 Like that was it. 0:47:31.480 --> 0:47:33.960 When they were drilling for the inauguration. 0:47:33.520 --> 0:47:36.480 When they stuffed the capital with National God soldiers like 0:47:36.520 --> 0:47:37.120 a sausage. 0:47:37.239 --> 0:47:39.960 Yeah, it was just I guess it worked. I don't know. 0:47:40.160 --> 0:47:42.560 My other conclusion from this, though, is when when you 0:47:42.640 --> 0:47:46.759 have reached the position of like you're you're trying to 0:47:46.760 --> 0:47:49.520 figure like your top generals are trying to figure out 0:47:49.600 --> 0:47:52.200 who has enough guns to figure out whether a coup 0:47:52.239 --> 0:47:55.040 can happen, like things are things are not good. This 0:47:55.120 --> 0:47:58.600 is a this is a a bad sign TM. 0:47:58.640 --> 0:48:02.480 For no, It's it's like, as nice as it is 0:48:02.800 --> 0:48:06.279 to hear that Milly understood the stakes, which is good. 0:48:06.360 --> 0:48:09.040 It's good that he understood the stakes given his position, 0:48:09.640 --> 0:48:12.520 it's not good that like so much came down to 0:48:12.600 --> 0:48:16.239 the fact that a couple dudes didn't suck in this 0:48:16.280 --> 0:48:21.440 specific way, Like that's not a great sign for stability 0:48:21.440 --> 0:48:26.200 of democracy. Yeah, because no one voted for Miley, Like right, Yeah, 0:48:26.280 --> 0:48:27.160 that's unsettling. 0:48:27.320 --> 0:48:30.320 Yeah, the whole democratic system was more or less of 0:48:30.400 --> 0:48:32.239 the edge of failing. And a dude who was good 0:48:32.239 --> 0:48:33.719 at war step ten and was like, here, okay, we 0:48:33.760 --> 0:48:36.279 can't I don't want to do this one of those things. 0:48:36.320 --> 0:48:38.480 Right, we know what this looks like. With Bush, We're like, 0:48:38.920 --> 0:48:41.520 if you actually know how to press the buttons of 0:48:41.520 --> 0:48:45.000 the system, right, you can't do this. But Trump just 0:48:45.040 --> 0:48:47.920 like didn't have enough control of the state apparatus and 0:48:47.960 --> 0:48:50.000 tried to sort of replicate it with true viles, and 0:48:50.320 --> 0:48:54.279 that just didn't work. Trump's problems here are twofold. One 0:48:54.280 --> 0:48:58.000 of them is that he is not capable of loyalty 0:48:58.239 --> 0:49:01.160 to anyone or anything else, whereas. 0:49:01.200 --> 0:49:03.960 A guy like George W. Bush is, which means he's 0:49:03.960 --> 0:49:07.359 capable of getting teams together who are willing to take 0:49:07.719 --> 0:49:09.200 some of like who are willing to go out on 0:49:09.200 --> 0:49:12.720 a limb for him to some extent. And Bush also 0:49:13.160 --> 0:49:15.399 is system loyal. Now, that doesn't mean he's not willing 0:49:15.440 --> 0:49:17.920 to fuck with the system for his own benefit, but 0:49:18.040 --> 0:49:22.120 he has a vested interest in the system continuing more 0:49:22.239 --> 0:49:24.640 or less the way that it has right as opposed 0:49:24.680 --> 0:49:30.080 to breaking it, specifically forever for his own like power. 0:49:31.040 --> 0:49:32.520 You know, he was not a guy who was interested 0:49:32.560 --> 0:49:34.319 in staying in office. For I don't say this to 0:49:34.320 --> 0:49:37.560 defend the man he killed hundreds of thousands of people minimum, 0:49:37.920 --> 0:49:41.120 But because he was willing, he had a degree of 0:49:41.200 --> 0:49:45.160 loyalty to the system as it was seen by most people. 0:49:45.640 --> 0:49:48.560 There was not this kind of rebellion from sort of 0:49:48.600 --> 0:49:51.239 within it, right like. In fact, that deep state was 0:49:51.320 --> 0:49:54.000 largely sympathetic with him. They were willing to go with 0:49:54.080 --> 0:49:57.320 like the fucking around with the election as long as, 0:49:57.480 --> 0:50:00.319 you know, the broader structures that had given them a 0:50:00.360 --> 0:50:04.960 place to exert power and influence remained intact. And Trump 0:50:05.040 --> 0:50:07.680 was basically saying, if Millie had gone with this, if 0:50:07.680 --> 0:50:10.360 everyone had gone with this, what you are accepting is 0:50:10.360 --> 0:50:14.360 that nothing matters but this guy's opinion. Right There's not 0:50:14.480 --> 0:50:17.359 actually any sort of power in the system that you 0:50:17.400 --> 0:50:20.200 have risen to the top of. There's not any sort 0:50:20.200 --> 0:50:24.359 of power in these unelected structures within the system that 0:50:24.440 --> 0:50:27.319 you clearly think are important because they are how you 0:50:27.440 --> 0:50:32.200 why like, where you have seen success, right like, And frankly, 0:50:32.520 --> 0:50:34.799 you know people aren't willing to do that sort of thing. 0:50:34.840 --> 0:50:39.600 And also you're fighting against a lot of people who 0:50:40.920 --> 0:50:44.359 want to whatever fucked up things they are willing to do. 0:50:44.880 --> 0:50:47.520 They have a lot emotionally invested in the idea that 0:50:47.560 --> 0:50:52.440 they serve a democracy. Now is that a morally flawless idea? 0:50:52.480 --> 0:50:55.080 Are they always? In fact? Like no, of course not 0:50:55.320 --> 0:50:59.880 like everyone. They're hypocrites to certain extents, But you can't 0:51:00.040 --> 0:51:03.359 pushed them that far like Bush pushed them about as 0:51:03.400 --> 0:51:06.879 far as you can push people like that. Right, this 0:51:07.360 --> 0:51:11.240 Trump didn't have any respect for making it, for dressing 0:51:11.239 --> 0:51:13.719 it up right, and he didn't have any respect for 0:51:14.360 --> 0:51:16.320 the thing that they were a part of, and so 0:51:16.400 --> 0:51:18.200 of course a lot of them didn't go with him. 0:51:18.560 --> 0:51:20.319 Yeah, and I think this gets back to something I've 0:51:20.320 --> 0:51:23.759 talked about a bit with with what what the neocons 0:51:23.800 --> 0:51:26.640 were doing, which that the neocons are about like the 0:51:26.680 --> 0:51:28.920 state of exception, right, they're about this, like you know, 0:51:28.920 --> 0:51:30.520 we've had the war, we now have the war on terror. 0:51:30.560 --> 0:51:32.600 We've had nine to eleven, and that means the countries 0:51:32.600 --> 0:51:34.319 in this state were like, we have the power to 0:51:34.400 --> 0:51:36.359 be like the people inside the system who are out 0:51:36.360 --> 0:51:37.920 bound by it, you could do whatever you want and 0:51:37.960 --> 0:51:41.120 like that is descriptively right, like this is you know, 0:51:41.239 --> 0:51:43.759 both Carl Schmidt, the like Nazi jurists like that. That 0:51:43.880 --> 0:51:46.200 was explicitly like his model of how you do fascism, right, 0:51:47.320 --> 0:51:49.200 and it's as also like something you know. But but 0:51:49.239 --> 0:51:52.799 the thing is again like that's a very different thing 0:51:52.920 --> 0:51:56.520 than what Trump was doing, right, Like Trump wasn't doing 0:51:56.600 --> 0:51:59.279 like Trump wasn't doing this thing where he like you know, 0:51:59.520 --> 0:52:01.520 uses the as of the state he was, he was 0:52:01.560 --> 0:52:04.640 doing a different, like different kind of. 0:52:04.640 --> 0:52:04.960 One of them. 0:52:05.360 --> 0:52:07.280 This is what a lot of people don't understand about 0:52:07.320 --> 0:52:10.879 the Nazis is that whin Hitler took power and for 0:52:11.160 --> 0:52:15.560 the first half to two thirds of his time in power, uh, 0:52:15.840 --> 0:52:20.680 he was very much concerned about the military and constantly 0:52:20.760 --> 0:52:25.840 making exceptions and altering and moderating aspects of his policy 0:52:25.880 --> 0:52:28.520 in order to keep the military on his side. And 0:52:28.560 --> 0:52:31.600 that continued, depending on kind of where you want to 0:52:31.600 --> 0:52:34.120 put it, either up until the Anschlusser, up until the 0:52:34.200 --> 0:52:36.719 invasion of Poland. Really to a significant. 0:52:36.160 --> 0:52:40.840 Extent he would whereas Trump did not. 0:52:41.160 --> 0:52:43.520 Again, there's no sort of he has no sort of 0:52:43.520 --> 0:52:46.480 respect And I'm not saying like you should have respect 0:52:46.520 --> 0:52:49.920 for the military, no, but I'm saying that because he 0:52:50.120 --> 0:52:52.759 did not just like power. Yeah, the fact that he 0:52:52.800 --> 0:52:55.960 did not, or the FBI for that matter, is one 0:52:56.000 --> 0:52:57.680 of the reasons why this didn't work for him. 0:52:57.800 --> 0:52:59.600 Yeah, and this was this was always a kind of 0:52:59.600 --> 0:53:01.360 a problem he has ideologically, which is like one of 0:53:01.400 --> 0:53:03.080 the things that makes him popular is he was running 0:53:03.120 --> 0:53:05.080 like against the deep state, right, and like yeah, like yeah, 0:53:05.120 --> 0:53:06.200 like I know lots of people in you like I 0:53:06.239 --> 0:53:08.279 don't like the intelligence agency. He's like, the intelligence's can 0:53:08.320 --> 0:53:10.279 fuck off. The fact that like the fact that the 0:53:10.280 --> 0:53:13.759 intelligence agency's finally found a coup they wouldn't support, like 0:53:13.840 --> 0:53:16.560 it's not as something they're good, but the pretended Yeah. 0:53:16.560 --> 0:53:17.880 But like the problem with this is like Trump is, 0:53:18.160 --> 0:53:20.560 you know, he wins the primary, like very explicitly by 0:53:20.640 --> 0:53:24.759 running against a lot of the like like by nay, 0:53:24.840 --> 0:53:27.000 running against neo conservatives. You can argue the extent to 0:53:27.000 --> 0:53:28.480 which he actually broke with it in terms of like 0:53:28.560 --> 0:53:30.279 appointing like gena. You know, he puts a bunch of 0:53:30.280 --> 0:53:32.760 neo kon gorougles like back in power, right, But like 0:53:32.760 --> 0:53:36.000 like nominally he's running against that specific thing. And it 0:53:36.040 --> 0:53:38.040 turns out that like if if you if your appeal 0:53:38.280 --> 0:53:41.840 is you know, being like a nominally anti systemic force, 0:53:41.880 --> 0:53:43.920 and then you have to try to use the system 0:53:43.960 --> 0:53:46.080 to stay in power. It's like, well, you know this, 0:53:46.080 --> 0:53:50.240 this happens like now you are getting charged by Jack 0:53:50.320 --> 0:53:53.799 Smith and you have like seventy eight counts against you 0:53:54.120 --> 0:53:56.680 instead of you are now the fearer. 0:53:57.960 --> 0:54:00.919 Yeah, a lot of it is. You know, first off, 0:54:00.960 --> 0:54:04.360 people want to be able to believe nice things about themselves, 0:54:04.680 --> 0:54:06.719 and Trump didn't really give them the option of doing that. 0:54:07.320 --> 0:54:10.719 And second of all, people who are achieved this kind 0:54:10.760 --> 0:54:14.359 of level within the system want you to treat the 0:54:14.400 --> 0:54:18.600 system they've succeeded in as if it matters, Like it's 0:54:18.600 --> 0:54:19.160 that simple. 0:54:19.280 --> 0:54:21.279 I think in a lot of yays when I feel 0:54:21.320 --> 0:54:24.120 validated and valued, and he was just like, no, fuck 0:54:24.120 --> 0:54:26.560 you all, I'm doing my gu and with genuinely shock 0:54:26.560 --> 0:54:28.000 whe people like, well, we ain't coming with you. 0:54:27.960 --> 0:54:32.080 For I don't I really feel no desire or no 0:54:32.200 --> 0:54:35.840 uh no impetus to move with you. Yeah, anyway, this 0:54:36.000 --> 0:54:36.600 is a good idea. 0:54:37.000 --> 0:54:38.920 Yeah, So I don't know, we'll we'll, we'll see what 0:54:39.080 --> 0:54:44.160 happens with these indictments. I don't know. I I genuine 0:54:44.239 --> 0:54:45.880 this is the importance. Yeah, this is the one that 0:54:46.360 --> 0:54:48.160 the indictments. This is the one that matters. 0:54:48.360 --> 0:54:48.960 Yeah, I don't know. 0:54:49.040 --> 0:54:52.239 We'll we'll see if this actually substantively plays a role 0:54:52.360 --> 0:54:54.359 in the election. I mean, I I don't think there's 0:54:54.360 --> 0:54:58.879 a possibility that I can cost Trump the primary, like but. 0:54:59.120 --> 0:55:02.000 No, no, no, no, yeah, nothing nothing but like a 0:55:02.040 --> 0:55:07.439 heart attack could do that. But it is. I will 0:55:07.480 --> 0:55:09.319 say I had some other stuff prepared that I think 0:55:09.320 --> 0:55:11.279 we'll move to another episode just because of how this 0:55:11.320 --> 0:55:13.040 has gone. But I do want to note I want 0:55:13.080 --> 0:55:14.760 to talk a little bit at the end here about 0:55:16.160 --> 0:55:18.840 is this going to matter like electorally for Trump? 0:55:18.920 --> 0:55:19.080 Right? 0:55:19.120 --> 0:55:21.800 Is this going to have an impact on his chances 0:55:21.800 --> 0:55:24.520 of winning the general? I think we're all agreed it's 0:55:24.520 --> 0:55:26.440 not really worth talking about the primary. He's going to 0:55:26.440 --> 0:55:29.719 win the primary barring and act of God, and that's 0:55:29.800 --> 0:55:34.480 where what Yeah, anyway, so there's some infol on this. Basically, 0:55:34.560 --> 0:55:37.680 on March twenty ninth, he was averaging about forty five 0:55:37.719 --> 0:55:42.200 percent in national primary polls, which I'm bringing up here 0:55:42.239 --> 0:55:44.359 because they help show the impact of the indictment because 0:55:44.360 --> 0:55:45.960 you don't have a lot of national polls from that 0:55:46.040 --> 0:55:50.640 time a national general election polls. So forty five percent 0:55:50.680 --> 0:55:54.400 in March, after his first set of indictments. In April, 0:55:54.440 --> 0:55:57.319 he was up to fifty four percent, So that first 0:55:57.360 --> 0:56:00.600 set of indictments did not harm him. They have helped 0:56:00.640 --> 0:56:04.520 him consolidate power, may have activated a chunk of his base. 0:56:05.800 --> 0:56:08.319 The second indictment did not work the same way though. 0:56:08.400 --> 0:56:10.960 After June eighth, when it was reported that he was 0:56:11.000 --> 0:56:14.400 being indicted for the classified document shit and obstructing justice 0:56:14.400 --> 0:56:15.080 and getting. 0:56:14.800 --> 0:56:15.400 Them back. 0:56:17.680 --> 0:56:22.000 YEA, his average support in the primary fell not by 0:56:22.000 --> 0:56:24.560 a massive amount, by a couple of percentage points, as 0:56:24.560 --> 0:56:27.600 did his average net favorable rating. So you saw at 0:56:27.719 --> 0:56:31.319 least a he hit a wall and bounced back a 0:56:31.320 --> 0:56:35.200 little bit. Not massive, not a sea change, but enough 0:56:35.239 --> 0:56:38.560 to show that it's not accurate to say voters don't care. 0:56:38.680 --> 0:56:41.000 It's more accurate to say, based on what we've seen 0:56:41.000 --> 0:56:44.600 so far, voters seem to care differently about different indictments. 0:56:45.640 --> 0:56:47.239 And I want to read a quote from a five 0:56:47.239 --> 0:56:50.840 point thirty eight article about his indictment poles here. Although 0:56:50.840 --> 0:56:52.759 we can't prove that all these shifts happen because of 0:56:52.800 --> 0:56:55.000 the indictments, the difference in reaction at least suggests that 0:56:55.040 --> 0:56:58.440 Americans are drawing distinctions between Trump's various legal troubles and 0:56:58.520 --> 0:57:00.800 other polling backs that up ing to do. A Yugov 0:57:00.920 --> 0:57:04.520 Yahoo News poll from July thirteenth through seventeenth, fifty percent 0:57:04.600 --> 0:57:08.080 of registered voters considered falsifying business records to conceal hush 0:57:08.080 --> 0:57:10.680 money payments to a porn star to be a serious crime, 0:57:10.960 --> 0:57:13.520 but sixty four percent of registered voters consider it a 0:57:13.560 --> 0:57:16.200 serious crime to take highly classified documents from the White 0:57:16.240 --> 0:57:19.160 House and obstruct efforts to retrieve them. Similarly, a June 0:57:19.200 --> 0:57:21.800 twenty second to twenty sixth pole from the Associated Press 0:57:21.840 --> 0:57:25.240 NRC Center for Public Affairs Research found that only thirty 0:57:25.240 --> 0:57:27.840 five percent of US adults thought Trump did something illegal 0:57:27.840 --> 0:57:30.120 when it came to the hush money payments, but fifty 0:57:30.120 --> 0:57:32.440 three percent thought he did something illegal with regards to 0:57:32.440 --> 0:57:37.280 classified documents founded his Marologu resort in Florida. By this logic, 0:57:37.320 --> 0:57:39.680 this third indictment could be even more damaging to Trump 0:57:39.720 --> 0:57:42.320 than the one involving classified documents. According to the same 0:57:42.400 --> 0:57:45.240 Yugo of Yahoo News poll, sixty nine percent of registered 0:57:45.320 --> 0:57:48.440 voters considered it a serious crime to attempt to obstruct 0:57:48.480 --> 0:57:51.640 the certification of a presidential election, and seventy one percent 0:57:51.680 --> 0:57:54.040 said the same about conspiring to overturn the results of 0:57:54.080 --> 0:57:55.040 a presidential election. 0:57:55.200 --> 0:57:58.680 So going to take us troublingly low number, but yeah, yeah, 0:57:58.720 --> 0:57:59.800 I wishing way it should be. 0:58:00.800 --> 0:58:05.400 Yeah, but that that does suggest that this could do 0:58:05.520 --> 0:58:09.080 him some damage, and especially since all of this is 0:58:09.120 --> 0:58:12.680 going to keep getting litigated, right like fucking people who 0:58:12.680 --> 0:58:14.840 get who have a decent lawyer and get arrested for 0:58:14.920 --> 0:58:17.160 like a d u y can drag a court case 0:58:17.200 --> 0:58:19.080 out for a year. This will be going on during 0:58:19.080 --> 0:58:21.439 the election. It may hurt him. 0:58:21.520 --> 0:58:21.720 You know. 0:58:21.840 --> 0:58:25.400 Again, I'm not willing to like say, oh, this is 0:58:25.440 --> 0:58:27.640 going to fuck the election, make it impossible from beginning. 0:58:27.680 --> 0:58:30.880 I don't think the data suggests that, but it it 0:58:30.920 --> 0:58:32.840 there's a I think a pretty good chance that this 0:58:32.880 --> 0:58:34.960 is a net negative for him in terms of, you know, 0:58:35.080 --> 0:58:40.560 the election and broadly speaking, you know, we gave the 0:58:40.680 --> 0:58:43.400 Dims a lot of shit for a couple of years 0:58:43.440 --> 0:58:47.800 for not doing enough to actually seriously strike back at 0:58:47.800 --> 0:58:51.800 the Republican authoritarian outreach, and so it would be unfair 0:58:51.840 --> 0:58:55.400 of me to not say it's good that they're doing this, 0:58:56.280 --> 0:58:59.120 like it's good that he's facing legal trouble for what 0:58:59.200 --> 0:59:02.520 he's done. That's not enough to stop him. That's not 0:59:02.640 --> 0:59:05.600 enough to stop the Republican Party, but it is good 0:59:05.720 --> 0:59:06.680 that this has been done. 0:59:07.040 --> 0:59:14.080 Yeah, yeah, progress. Shame wasn't earlier, should have been earlier. 0:59:14.200 --> 0:59:17.160 You know, h happening during the election is a major 0:59:17.320 --> 0:59:18.920 l in terms of how he can spin this. 0:59:19.160 --> 0:59:22.200 Yeah, Like I think that was probably a strategic error, 0:59:23.240 --> 0:59:24.479 but grand juries take forever. 0:59:24.720 --> 0:59:25.760 Yeah. Yeah. 0:59:25.760 --> 0:59:27.120 And the other thing that's happens is like there's been 0:59:27.240 --> 0:59:29.680 all of this time for sort of Republican pr machine 0:59:29.680 --> 0:59:32.680 to like spin all of the stuff that happened, and 0:59:32.720 --> 0:59:34.479 we've you know, and I think like part of wasn't 0:59:34.480 --> 0:59:36.520 happening the last three years is like everyone kind of 0:59:36.520 --> 0:59:40.640 just like collectively forgetting what actually happened during twenty twenty 0:59:40.680 --> 0:59:43.440 and how absolutely nuts it was, and everyone sort of 0:59:43.480 --> 0:59:45.520 going back and pretending that like things are sort of 0:59:45.560 --> 0:59:48.760 like normal now, and it's like, no, no, we're still 0:59:48.800 --> 0:59:51.240 we're still living in the eternal twenty twenty and everything 0:59:51.360 --> 0:59:56.240 is still absolutely nuts. But I don't know, it's like 0:59:56.840 --> 1:00:00.360 there's been this incredible sort of like normalization effort, both 1:00:00.360 --> 1:00:02.720 by Biden and also like buy the Republicans to make 1:00:02.760 --> 1:00:05.520 it seem like this was like a normal thing that 1:00:05.600 --> 1:00:08.440 happened as opposed to like the immediate wake if it, 1:00:08.440 --> 1:00:13.760 where everyone was like what the fuck? So hopefully not 1:00:13.840 --> 1:00:17.160 too little, too late, hopefully this does something, but. 1:00:20.600 --> 1:00:27.280 We'll see, yes, indeed, all right, well everybody, uh, you know, 1:00:28.520 --> 1:00:32.720 I guess go back to paying rent and stuff. I'm 1:00:32.760 --> 1:00:34.520 sure twenty twenty four will be fine. 1:00:35.680 --> 1:00:36.800 Yet it wouldn't be any problem. 1:00:36.800 --> 1:00:38.200 There's fifteen more months of this. 1:00:38.320 --> 1:00:57.040 By the way, Hi, everyone, it's me James today and 1:00:57.080 --> 1:00:59.600 I'm joined by Glen Pyle, who's a professor of malekhilra 1:00:59.680 --> 1:01:04.040 Kadi and a member of the Impart Network at Dalhousie Medicine. 1:01:04.400 --> 1:01:06.720 Glenn, thank you so much for joining us. Can you 1:01:06.920 --> 1:01:08.560 is there any I missed out? First of all in 1:01:08.600 --> 1:01:10.400 your bio there that might be relevant for people. 1:01:10.600 --> 1:01:12.800 No, I think that's a short and sweet I don't 1:01:12.840 --> 1:01:14.040 need all the details for. 1:01:13.960 --> 1:01:14.640 Sure, Thank you. 1:01:14.880 --> 1:01:15.080 Yeah. 1:01:15.120 --> 1:01:18.280 So, what we're here to talk about today is these 1:01:18.640 --> 1:01:23.080 sudden the phenomenal I suppose of sudden cardiac arrest, specifically 1:01:23.200 --> 1:01:27.480 like in young people and young athletes. Because, as many 1:01:27.560 --> 1:01:30.960 of you will have been aware, this has been increasingly 1:01:31.280 --> 1:01:35.520 an area in which anti vaxxers and conspiracy theorists have 1:01:35.640 --> 1:01:38.720 been trying to leverage what is an unfortunate but not 1:01:39.080 --> 1:01:44.040 unprecedented cardiac arrest, like in this case, most recently Bronnie James, 1:01:44.080 --> 1:01:46.120 but it has happened before in the number of sports, 1:01:46.280 --> 1:01:48.240 and they've been trying to leverage us as of quote 1:01:48.400 --> 1:01:51.400 unquote like prove for evidence that that vaccines are killing 1:01:51.400 --> 1:01:55.320 otherwise healthy young people, which is nonsense. And I can 1:01:55.360 --> 1:01:56.880 tell you it's nonsense. But someone who can tell you 1:01:56.920 --> 1:02:00.480 from much more informed perspective is Glenn so Glinn. Could 1:02:00.480 --> 1:02:03.960 we start up by maybe talking about how common this 1:02:04.320 --> 1:02:07.680 sudden cardiac arrest in young athletes is and what we 1:02:07.800 --> 1:02:10.680 might what hypothethies we might have to what caused it. 1:02:11.920 --> 1:02:13.760 Sure, well, I mean, first of all, we look more broadly, 1:02:13.800 --> 1:02:17.960 it's very common. I'm from Canada and we have about 1:02:17.960 --> 1:02:23.360 thirty five thousand of these every year within young athletes. 1:02:24.160 --> 1:02:27.080 The data out of the US says that about two 1:02:27.120 --> 1:02:32.200 thousand die every year from sudden cardiac arrest, and two 1:02:32.280 --> 1:02:36.120 thirds of these young people do so during some sort 1:02:36.160 --> 1:02:40.400 of exercise or sporting event. So, in the grand scheme 1:02:40.440 --> 1:02:42.440 of things, when you have a country of several hundred 1:02:42.440 --> 1:02:46.160 million people, a thousand or so death like that is, 1:02:46.880 --> 1:02:49.440 but proportion relatively small. But we've known about this for 1:02:49.480 --> 1:02:51.880 a long time and these numbers actually really haven't changed 1:02:52.000 --> 1:02:53.960 very much in decades. 1:02:54.440 --> 1:02:58.520 Okay, so yeah, there's obviously been a particular increase due 1:02:58.560 --> 1:03:04.120 to COVID vaccinations, because they're related. I wonder, actually it's evidence. 1:03:04.280 --> 1:03:06.800 I think I've read some stuff that having COVID or 1:03:06.800 --> 1:03:10.560 having had COVID multiple times might increase your risk for 1:03:11.000 --> 1:03:13.160 cardiac arrest. Is that true? 1:03:13.920 --> 1:03:17.080 Yeah? So broadly so, they haven't looked specifically at cardiac 1:03:17.160 --> 1:03:20.600 arrest because cardiac arrests typically is in a lot of 1:03:20.600 --> 1:03:23.160 times the end result of a number of different conditions 1:03:23.160 --> 1:03:29.040 of cardiac arrhythmias are known to be increased. Patone study 1:03:29.400 --> 1:03:31.959 showed that what I guess the year and a half 1:03:32.000 --> 1:03:36.600 ago by now, certainly early in the pandemic, one of 1:03:36.680 --> 1:03:39.120 the first signs we were seeing people who were being 1:03:39.160 --> 1:03:44.320 infected were having heart attacks, developing heart failure, these things, 1:03:44.600 --> 1:03:50.280 and in cardiac arresk the most common cause or cardiac arrhythmius. 1:03:51.400 --> 1:03:55.080 The Patone study showed. And every time I talk about this, 1:03:55.200 --> 1:03:58.000 I have to go back and look, because the increase 1:03:58.160 --> 1:04:04.120 was several hundredfold after COVID, and so I've never really 1:04:04.160 --> 1:04:09.680 seen anything like that before. So arrhythmias are relatively common 1:04:09.840 --> 1:04:12.640 in terms in the world of cardiovascular disease, and the 1:04:12.680 --> 1:04:17.160 fact that COVID the infection, actually increases it, but the 1:04:17.240 --> 1:04:21.720 vaccines do not means that the risk for some cardiac 1:04:21.760 --> 1:04:24.480 death really would be highest amongst those who are infected, 1:04:24.960 --> 1:04:26.640 not those who get vaccines. 1:04:26.880 --> 1:04:31.320 Okay, do you know offhand if like when we have 1:04:31.440 --> 1:04:33.880 that maybe this was too early in the pandemic to 1:04:33.920 --> 1:04:37.560 tell like that risk that comes with having COVID right 1:04:37.560 --> 1:04:41.280 for having arrhythmia afterwards? Is that risk mitigated by if 1:04:41.320 --> 1:04:44.320 you're vaccinated and then you get COVID. 1:04:44.800 --> 1:04:49.760 So yes, there's been some more recent studies beaks. Obviously, 1:04:49.760 --> 1:04:52.800 early in the pandemic, when we didn't have the vaccines, 1:04:52.840 --> 1:04:56.240 we couldn't answer that. And then early after vaccines were 1:04:56.240 --> 1:04:58.840 looking at things like infections, and some of these cardiac 1:04:58.920 --> 1:05:03.720 issues may not arise until even after the infection is clear. 1:05:03.800 --> 1:05:06.000 So we see that in people with long COVID, for example, 1:05:06.120 --> 1:05:11.240 kardiac issues are most common. And so we've seen in 1:05:11.760 --> 1:05:16.560 some recent studies that people who are in even what 1:05:16.600 --> 1:05:20.760 they described as partially vaccinated for one or two doses 1:05:21.120 --> 1:05:24.120 had a reduced risk of what we call MACE, which 1:05:24.160 --> 1:05:27.640 is a major adverse cardiovascular event. And so that's an 1:05:27.680 --> 1:05:31.040 all encompassing term, which would be things like stroke, heart attack, 1:05:31.640 --> 1:05:34.360 you know, things things like that, those major cardiac events. 1:05:34.880 --> 1:05:39.760 That's data has come out earlier this year, within the 1:05:39.800 --> 1:05:41.120 last year, a couple of studies. 1:05:41.360 --> 1:05:46.400 Okay, so circling back to those cardiac arrests, and I 1:05:46.400 --> 1:05:49.520 guess broke more broadly like cardiac issues in young people 1:05:49.560 --> 1:05:53.520 and specific in young athletes, something I'm familiar with that 1:05:53.680 --> 1:05:57.600 with the background in cycling, like I've known people die 1:05:57.680 --> 1:06:00.920 of cardiac arrests who are otherwise extremely fit. No, I 1:06:00.960 --> 1:06:04.160 wouldn't necessarily say, like sometimes being fit and being healthy 1:06:04.160 --> 1:06:07.560 are not the same thing, and certainly the very like 1:06:07.840 --> 1:06:10.160 point to end of indurance sport. I think the fittest 1:06:10.160 --> 1:06:13.400 people are not necessarily the healthiest, but very fit sometimes 1:06:13.480 --> 1:06:17.240 very healthy people have friends of mine have had these issues. 1:06:18.440 --> 1:06:21.880 Is in those cases and we might not know. I 1:06:21.880 --> 1:06:27.320 don't know is being an athlete like increasing someone's chance 1:06:27.400 --> 1:06:29.520 of having those cardiacorists or is it that they have 1:06:29.560 --> 1:06:32.520 some kind of pre existing condition that's just that's just 1:06:32.520 --> 1:06:33.600 been underlying for a while. 1:06:35.080 --> 1:06:38.200 Yeah, that's a good question. What we do know and 1:06:38.320 --> 1:06:42.160 this this is all data from pre COVID, so it's 1:06:42.200 --> 1:06:45.400 not something that's been impacted by the pandemic or vaccines. 1:06:46.000 --> 1:06:50.320 We do know that the rate of sudden cardiac death 1:06:50.360 --> 1:06:52.920 and the general population is about one in one hundred thousand, 1:06:53.360 --> 1:06:55.840 and that in athletes, which is a very broad term 1:06:55.880 --> 1:06:58.160 and we can get into that how to an athlete 1:06:58.320 --> 1:07:01.240 and things like that, is anywhere from two to four 1:07:01.360 --> 1:07:05.560 times the rate that that's groups of athletes. Subsections are 1:07:05.560 --> 1:07:12.080 actually higher, So we know the radius higher in these athletes, 1:07:12.120 --> 1:07:16.360 typically these high performance athletes. You know why that is, 1:07:16.600 --> 1:07:21.120 It's an interesting question. It could be the training, for example, 1:07:22.480 --> 1:07:26.120 puts a stressor on them. So they may have a 1:07:26.160 --> 1:07:29.800 pre existing condition. They may have a cardiac orarithm of 1:07:29.880 --> 1:07:34.640 like long Qt syndrome or even something called hypertrophic cardiomopathy. 1:07:34.840 --> 1:07:38.960 Sometimes they know about it and sometimes they don't, and 1:07:39.000 --> 1:07:41.960 then the training on top is enough of a trigger. 1:07:42.040 --> 1:07:45.120 So one of the examples I use in my class 1:07:45.760 --> 1:07:49.320 is Anthony Evenlous, a soccer player I believe it was 1:07:49.320 --> 1:07:51.760 in the Netherlands. He was playing. He had a known 1:07:52.960 --> 1:07:55.480 cardiovascular condition so he had what's called it ic D 1:07:55.720 --> 1:07:59.720 or planet cardiodefibrillator while he was playing, and he suffered 1:07:59.720 --> 1:08:03.640 some cardiac death on the field. There's actually video of it, 1:08:03.720 --> 1:08:06.320 and that shocked him back into rhythm. So you know, 1:08:06.360 --> 1:08:10.240 some of these people may not know and discover in 1:08:10.280 --> 1:08:14.160 the course of training, and some may know and opt 1:08:14.200 --> 1:08:16.799 to take that risk anyway, and then it's the training 1:08:16.840 --> 1:08:18.680 that or the competition that brings it out. 1:08:18.760 --> 1:08:21.000 Yeah okay, yeah, yeah, I have a very good friend 1:08:21.080 --> 1:08:25.599 with ICD and it there's certainly been at the end 1:08:25.600 --> 1:08:28.160 of a very difficult process for him to have that, 1:08:28.240 --> 1:08:32.599 and that involve lots of lifestyle changes. And so when 1:08:32.720 --> 1:08:35.920 we let's what exactly is an athlete in these studies, 1:08:35.960 --> 1:08:37.800 like is that somebody goes to gym twice a week? 1:08:37.920 --> 1:08:40.120 Is it someone putting in twenty hours on the bike, 1:08:40.320 --> 1:08:40.519 like what? 1:08:42.280 --> 1:08:44.639 So most of the studies that we're talking about, so 1:08:44.800 --> 1:08:47.439 I assume we're not talking about the people who are 1:08:48.320 --> 1:08:50.920 claiming that the vaccines are linked to athletes, because they 1:08:50.960 --> 1:08:53.760 have a very different definition. I can talk about that 1:08:54.160 --> 1:08:57.320 most of these studies that we're dealing with, where we 1:08:57.360 --> 1:09:00.040 get these rates that are two to four times higher 1:09:00.080 --> 1:09:03.120 than the general population or what they refer to as 1:09:03.200 --> 1:09:07.400 competitive athletes. So for people in the US, these would 1:09:07.400 --> 1:09:10.920 be your NCAA or college athletes. Some of them are 1:09:10.960 --> 1:09:14.120 professional athletes, you know, soccer players and the you know, 1:09:14.160 --> 1:09:16.400 the British League and things like that. So these are 1:09:16.439 --> 1:09:21.040 people who play at a at a competitive level. Oftentimes 1:09:21.120 --> 1:09:23.840 they're making a living. I mean, you can argue whether 1:09:24.080 --> 1:09:26.080 college athletes are making a living out of this, but 1:09:26.120 --> 1:09:29.839 there's there's some high level of competition in these athletes. 1:09:29.880 --> 1:09:32.519 That's generally the people that were that these studies are 1:09:32.600 --> 1:09:34.920 based on, not the guy who goes to the gym 1:09:34.960 --> 1:09:36.360 twice a week or something like that. 1:09:36.600 --> 1:09:40.240 Okay, yeah, yeah, so fairly elite. And what is it 1:09:40.360 --> 1:09:42.240 that you were saying that's different from the claims that 1:09:42.280 --> 1:09:46.559 these anti vax people or vaccine skeptics or whatever, you know, 1:09:46.800 --> 1:09:49.320 people who want to say that vaccines are giving people 1:09:49.320 --> 1:09:52.280 which isn't true. What sort of the definition that they're 1:09:52.360 --> 1:09:54.400 using or what's the claim that they're making. 1:09:54.439 --> 1:09:58.400 I guess well, they really don't have a definition, is 1:09:58.439 --> 1:10:03.000 the problem. So they'll use the term athletes, and I 1:10:03.000 --> 1:10:06.040 think most people, you know, maybe maybe you don't see 1:10:06.040 --> 1:10:09.240 an athlete as necessarily being a college or professional level. 1:10:09.520 --> 1:10:12.520 It could be like a high school athlete who's competing, 1:10:13.040 --> 1:10:14.920 you know, once or twice a week or whatever, and 1:10:14.920 --> 1:10:18.599 that's that's fair. But when you look at the lists 1:10:18.760 --> 1:10:21.559 that they have, I mean, I've talked about this recently 1:10:21.640 --> 1:10:24.800 and the Died Suddenly movie documentary, whatever you want to 1:10:24.840 --> 1:10:28.559 call it. The list of people that they have on there. 1:10:28.600 --> 1:10:33.120 For example, they have musicians, they have a Thai princess 1:10:33.160 --> 1:10:38.040 on the princess from Thailand on there, and they also 1:10:38.080 --> 1:10:41.240 have people who died of cancer, someone who got an 1:10:41.280 --> 1:10:45.639 eye injury. So I'm not really sure, first of all, 1:10:45.640 --> 1:10:48.800 what their definition of athlete is. I'm not sure what 1:10:48.880 --> 1:10:51.320 their definition of sudden cardiac death is. When you have 1:10:51.360 --> 1:10:55.040 people dying of cancer or suffering an eye injury like that, 1:10:55.080 --> 1:10:58.000 those are are not related at all. There was an 1:10:58.040 --> 1:11:02.280 earlier list. I think it's related to the Good Sciencing. 1:11:02.320 --> 1:11:05.439 I wrote about this probably a year or so ago. 1:11:05.880 --> 1:11:07.680 I went through the list of people that they had 1:11:07.680 --> 1:11:10.439 on at the time. There was about one hundred, just 1:11:10.439 --> 1:11:12.639 a little over one hundred people that they cleim died. 1:11:13.320 --> 1:11:18.120 There were soccer referees on there, there were retired athletes, 1:11:18.200 --> 1:11:20.439 there were people one guy was out for a hike. 1:11:20.680 --> 1:11:24.080 He was listed there. Now, you could argue a soccer 1:11:24.080 --> 1:11:28.120 referee is athletic, certainly, you know, running around the pitch 1:11:28.360 --> 1:11:33.040 doing that. I could see that. But that person died 1:11:33.160 --> 1:11:36.679 at home in their sleep, not in competition. The retired 1:11:36.720 --> 1:11:40.320 soccer player had been retired for six or seven years. 1:11:40.600 --> 1:11:43.320 So even in the cases where they have athletes, they're 1:11:43.360 --> 1:11:46.800 really stretching what we would define as an athlete. 1:11:46.840 --> 1:11:49.880 Right, Yeah, And I wonder is it data to show that, 1:11:50.000 --> 1:11:54.280 like overall mortality is lower in people who are vaccinated 1:11:54.400 --> 1:11:57.800 than unvaccinated, Like that exists yet? 1:11:58.479 --> 1:12:01.160 Yeah, So that's what some these these studies that I 1:12:01.160 --> 1:12:06.040 talked about that were done earlier this this year, there 1:12:06.080 --> 1:12:08.839 was a it was a JACK study the General American 1:12:08.960 --> 1:12:14.240 College of Cardiology showed that even people who are partially vaccinated, 1:12:14.560 --> 1:12:19.439 there's a reduction in these cardivalcular complications. And the JAMA 1:12:19.520 --> 1:12:22.519 study which was done earlier, specifically focused on am I. 1:12:22.600 --> 1:12:25.160 So the heart attacks at cute mount cardinal functions, and 1:12:25.240 --> 1:12:27.000 stroke also lower risk. 1:12:28.160 --> 1:12:30.560 You were saying earlier that there might be some sports 1:12:30.640 --> 1:12:34.000 that had even higher rates than those those ones you 1:12:34.040 --> 1:12:36.880 mentioned over all for athletes. What what sport to those. 1:12:38.000 --> 1:12:42.680 Yeah, so the one that Spitsman raised recently is basketball. 1:12:44.240 --> 1:12:46.639 They were, at least in some of these studies done 1:12:47.360 --> 1:12:52.360 in the US, much higher than other sports. Yeah. So, 1:12:52.439 --> 1:12:55.400 I mean, you know, basketball is can be an aerobic 1:12:56.520 --> 1:12:58.400 event and that you're running back and forth, you know, 1:12:58.560 --> 1:13:01.960 up and down the court quite freely, but it's punctuated 1:13:02.000 --> 1:13:04.920 by these bursts of of you know, sprints and things 1:13:05.000 --> 1:13:08.120 like that, which somehow speculated that might kind of be 1:13:08.200 --> 1:13:11.720 the issue, right that you don't settle into just a 1:13:11.760 --> 1:13:14.040 simple rhythm I'll say simple rhythm like you know, like 1:13:14.160 --> 1:13:17.240 riding a bike is. It's not it's obviously simple as 1:13:19.280 --> 1:13:23.240 as you describe it, but at least potentially there there's 1:13:23.280 --> 1:13:25.360 periods of time when you can sort of get into 1:13:25.400 --> 1:13:28.760 a rhythm and stay there and hear it's it's rest 1:13:28.800 --> 1:13:32.760 periods punctuated by these rapid bursts. And so there's the 1:13:33.880 --> 1:13:35.960 possibility that that may be related there. 1:13:36.280 --> 1:13:38.200 Okay, and so that that might be why that there 1:13:38.200 --> 1:13:39.679 are higher death rates to there. 1:13:39.880 --> 1:13:43.479 It's possible. Yeah, they're not sure why these things happen 1:13:43.520 --> 1:13:44.920 to specific. 1:13:44.880 --> 1:13:48.800 Sports, Okay, are our friends in anti VAXX community show 1:13:49.320 --> 1:13:51.360 in their own minds why these happened, Like, do they 1:13:51.400 --> 1:13:53.520 have some kind of hypothesia they're advancing. 1:13:54.720 --> 1:13:58.240 Uh. No, so that's a good point. They'll say it's 1:13:58.280 --> 1:14:01.599 the spike protein. I'm sure I've heard that race before. 1:14:03.240 --> 1:14:08.879 But they don't really explain beyond uh that it's interesting 1:14:08.960 --> 1:14:12.360 about the spike protein in the vaccines, as it's been 1:14:12.400 --> 1:14:18.840 modified to not be active. And so you have the 1:14:18.920 --> 1:14:24.960 spike protein in the virus which causes injury, and yet 1:14:25.000 --> 1:14:28.360 they don't seem to, you know, acknowledge that that could 1:14:28.400 --> 1:14:31.600 cause these these issues. And yet the spike protein in 1:14:31.600 --> 1:14:34.639 the vaccine, which has been designed to limit that injury, 1:14:35.160 --> 1:14:38.439 somehow overcomes that and actually causes the injury that's not 1:14:38.479 --> 1:14:42.599 associated with the infection. Like like note that it makes sense, right, 1:14:42.800 --> 1:14:45.439 you have to work live in these parallel worlds that 1:14:45.720 --> 1:14:48.160 don't don't ever mix, right. 1:14:48.280 --> 1:14:51.200 Yeah, so they Yeah, they're suggesting that this protein, which 1:14:51.240 --> 1:14:53.560 is a modified version of the one that's already in 1:14:53.640 --> 1:14:55.920 the virus but it's non harmful with one of the 1:14:55.960 --> 1:14:59.880 virus is harmful. It's because of the modification. 1:15:00.840 --> 1:15:04.360 Yeah. Certainly a good number of people who don't like 1:15:04.360 --> 1:15:10.320 the vaccines also claim that covid itself is really not 1:15:10.960 --> 1:15:14.120 much of a threat. And then so again, I don't 1:15:15.080 --> 1:15:18.000 I don't see how they can reconcile these these points, right, 1:15:18.120 --> 1:15:19.920 especially when you're arguing about the same protein, one of 1:15:19.960 --> 1:15:22.800 which has been modified to be less active, and yet 1:15:22.840 --> 1:15:25.840 you're saying the less active one is actually more dangerous 1:15:26.120 --> 1:15:27.679 than it. Just doesn't make any. 1:15:27.520 --> 1:15:29.760 Sense, right, Yeah, And I think it's kind of not 1:15:31.479 --> 1:15:34.040 people maybe come to it with a sort of predetermined 1:15:34.080 --> 1:15:38.080 desire to conclude that the vaccine is dangerous, And I wonder, like, 1:15:38.600 --> 1:15:43.839 I'm familiar with the exciting cardiac death from my time cycling, 1:15:43.840 --> 1:15:45.840 and I remember in the early two thousands, so there 1:15:45.880 --> 1:15:48.679 was this idea that people were dying because their blood 1:15:48.680 --> 1:15:52.400 had turned like quote I'm quoting from like newspaper articles 1:15:52.400 --> 1:15:55.679 at the time, too treacle and have become so thick 1:15:55.800 --> 1:15:59.680 that their heart couldn't pump it anymore, and that this 1:15:59.880 --> 1:16:01.920 was causing people to die, and the reason that they 1:16:02.000 --> 1:16:04.759 died was because they were taking excessive amounts of blood 1:16:04.800 --> 1:16:11.400 boosters like EBO or exog a CPO. And so, I 1:16:11.600 --> 1:16:14.320 this wasn't true, at least to my knowledge. I don't 1:16:14.320 --> 1:16:17.080 think any of these people had tested positive. None of 1:16:17.080 --> 1:16:20.760 them had like autopsies that suggested that this is why 1:16:20.800 --> 1:16:24.800 they had died. But it seems to me that there's 1:16:24.960 --> 1:16:29.719 this natural desire to try and explain away these deaths 1:16:29.800 --> 1:16:31.720 of what people who are at the peak of their 1:16:31.720 --> 1:16:34.880 physical lives, right, people in their in their teens and twenties, 1:16:34.920 --> 1:16:38.080 are extremely fit, who we can see doing amazing things, 1:16:38.600 --> 1:16:40.559 and doesn't sort of line up for us when they die. 1:16:40.600 --> 1:16:42.160 It doesn't line up with what we think a healthy 1:16:42.200 --> 1:16:44.840 person is and what we think a cardiac patient is. 1:16:46.200 --> 1:16:49.400 And so it seems to me that we create these explanations. 1:16:49.560 --> 1:16:52.559 Is that something you've seen in other areas before the 1:16:52.560 --> 1:16:56.120 COVID vaccine where there are other sort of conspiracies or 1:16:56.160 --> 1:16:57.799 just ways to try and explain this away. 1:16:58.920 --> 1:17:01.240 I don't know about conspiracy. I mean I think people 1:17:01.840 --> 1:17:06.040 understandably have a hard time reconciling what you just said. Right, 1:17:06.080 --> 1:17:11.240 you have elite cyclists or whatever sport it is. I mean, 1:17:11.320 --> 1:17:13.599 cycling is good because aerobically they have to be very fit, 1:17:13.720 --> 1:17:17.080 and then they die potentially of a cardiac condition, right, 1:17:17.080 --> 1:17:21.280 So that that makes no sense, you know, So the 1:17:21.360 --> 1:17:23.320 easiest thing, like you said, is to pay well, they 1:17:23.360 --> 1:17:26.240 must be doping, they must be taking steroids and you know, 1:17:26.320 --> 1:17:29.880 something that's going to harm your body. And so that 1:17:29.920 --> 1:17:32.960 has to be the explanation because it's it's it's easy, 1:17:33.080 --> 1:17:36.040 that's that's a simple way to get to this. The 1:17:36.280 --> 1:17:39.800 reality is that a good number of these people have 1:17:39.960 --> 1:17:44.439 underlying cardiac conditions. Not again, I don't necessarily mean a 1:17:44.479 --> 1:17:46.200 lot of cyclists have that. What I mean is the 1:17:46.240 --> 1:17:49.799 people who have these sudden cardiac desks have undiagnosed cardiac 1:17:49.840 --> 1:17:54.720 conditions long QT. There's a condition called CPVT, you know, 1:17:54.800 --> 1:17:59.759 something like that, and so they're relatively i'll say benign. 1:18:01.400 --> 1:18:05.200 TPVT isn't necessarily but it's triggered. These things are triggered 1:18:05.320 --> 1:18:09.320 by stressful events like exercise and things like that. And 1:18:09.360 --> 1:18:11.799 so they may live a good part of their life 1:18:13.080 --> 1:18:16.519 and to be in our seemingly in good health, and 1:18:16.560 --> 1:18:20.400 then the first sign for many of these people is death. 1:18:21.280 --> 1:18:25.840 That's the real challenge in dealing with these cases that 1:18:25.920 --> 1:18:28.400 lead to some cardiac death, because that's the first symptom. 1:18:28.720 --> 1:18:33.000 People don't feel tired, they don't you know, have chest 1:18:33.040 --> 1:18:35.240 pains like having a heart attack or anything like that. 1:18:35.560 --> 1:18:38.479 It's simply something happens. The wiring goes off in the 1:18:38.520 --> 1:18:41.240 heart and you put the exercise on top of it 1:18:41.520 --> 1:18:45.360 and they die. You know, it's not just these athletes. 1:18:45.439 --> 1:18:48.240 You'll have somebody who has a change in one of 1:18:48.280 --> 1:18:51.400 their genes. They're perfectly fine. Do they live into their 1:18:51.439 --> 1:18:55.120 sixties and then they suddenly die. Well, what allowed them 1:18:55.120 --> 1:18:58.960 to live sixty years with you know, no symptoms? We 1:18:59.040 --> 1:19:02.320 don't really know, but it's not uncommon that the first 1:19:02.320 --> 1:19:06.759 symptom is death. And these people, so your friends there 1:19:06.920 --> 1:19:10.240 who you know, it's it's easiest to accuse them of 1:19:10.520 --> 1:19:13.200 doping because certainly we a lot of us talked about 1:19:13.240 --> 1:19:15.680 it at the time, as I'm sure you know you 1:19:15.880 --> 1:19:20.960 knew about it. There's no secret. So we connect those dots, right, 1:19:20.960 --> 1:19:23.160 we can see that, we can see that, let's connect them. 1:19:23.200 --> 1:19:25.760 We can't let's see long cut. So we don't know 1:19:25.760 --> 1:19:27.759 what long QT syndrome is. For a lot of people, 1:19:28.240 --> 1:19:29.960 it's hard to make that connection when you don't know. 1:19:30.520 --> 1:19:33.080 Yeah, and it's hard from the perspective of being someone's 1:19:33.080 --> 1:19:34.559 friend or I can only imagine what it's like for 1:19:34.600 --> 1:19:38.200 their families to have this, Like I guess them be 1:19:38.360 --> 1:19:42.479 sort of libeled after they die, you know, or sort 1:19:42.520 --> 1:19:45.200 of acute of something that they may in many cases, 1:19:45.240 --> 1:19:47.480 I don't think did do. It must be very difficult 1:19:48.040 --> 1:19:50.160 to deal with that on top of losing someone you love. 1:19:51.000 --> 1:19:53.479 Yeah, well, and we're seeing that again here with the 1:19:53.840 --> 1:19:58.320 people who oppose the vaccines, which is either their assuming 1:19:58.400 --> 1:20:03.400 things or they're speculating on things. And you know, unless 1:20:03.400 --> 1:20:07.679 you're in the circle of care, you don't know what's 1:20:07.720 --> 1:20:10.519 what's going on. So, you know, you talked about Lebron 1:20:10.600 --> 1:20:13.320 James on here. You know, does he have an un 1:20:13.840 --> 1:20:16.840 underlying condition? We don't know, and it you know, it's 1:20:16.920 --> 1:20:19.599 it's really not helpful for me to sit here and say, well, 1:20:19.960 --> 1:20:22.960 he could have long QT, he could have CPGBT like here, 1:20:23.000 --> 1:20:26.120 you know, to speculate like like that. I can talk 1:20:26.160 --> 1:20:29.599 about what are some things that lead to these these 1:20:29.600 --> 1:20:33.519 conditions generally in people, But I don't know anything about 1:20:33.560 --> 1:20:36.439 his health, and so it's not helpful for me to 1:20:36.479 --> 1:20:39.000 sit here and speculate on that while his family and 1:20:39.000 --> 1:20:41.000 then he himself is trying to you know, sort of 1:20:41.000 --> 1:20:43.400 get through that. That's you know, that's I'm sure that's 1:20:43.439 --> 1:20:45.719 upsetting for them. So I'm not sure why people feel 1:20:45.720 --> 1:20:50.160 the need to do that, except to advance their own agenda. 1:20:49.840 --> 1:20:52.559 Right yes, yeah, I think that is the case. So 1:20:53.400 --> 1:20:55.599 let's talk a little bit about how we can I guess, 1:20:55.600 --> 1:21:00.080 mitigate these risks and that exist. I remember when and 1:21:00.120 --> 1:21:03.320 you're getting a license in Spain and they make you 1:21:03.360 --> 1:21:05.680 take a cardiac stress test there, like you get you 1:21:05.760 --> 1:21:07.479 ride your bike on a treadmill and they just ramp 1:21:07.479 --> 1:21:09.200 it up into your heart rates in the one nineties 1:21:09.280 --> 1:21:11.960 or whatever. And I don't know what they were doing, 1:21:12.479 --> 1:21:15.200 but they made us. I think that may only have 1:21:15.240 --> 1:21:17.400 been for like elite athletes, but they made us all 1:21:17.439 --> 1:21:21.040 do that. Is that something where if there was an 1:21:21.120 --> 1:21:23.479 underlying one of these underlying risk factors that you mentioned, 1:21:23.600 --> 1:21:25.680 would would it be spotted on a test like that? 1:21:27.000 --> 1:21:30.640 Yeah, that's a little bit of a controversial area. So 1:21:30.720 --> 1:21:35.880 I noticed you said in Spain. In Europe, the consensus 1:21:35.960 --> 1:21:38.479 is that athletes need to go through these what we 1:21:38.600 --> 1:21:42.360 call pre screening ECGs. So you were probably you know, 1:21:42.400 --> 1:21:44.880 probably had electrodes on your body. Yeah, yeah, And so 1:21:45.160 --> 1:21:48.200 that's a simple, non evasive test. And so you're right 1:21:50.800 --> 1:21:55.040 because some things you can pick up just rest, but 1:21:55.400 --> 1:21:57.320 some of these things don't appear and tell you you 1:21:57.320 --> 1:22:01.560 stress the individual, and so they'll look for rhythm problems. 1:22:02.320 --> 1:22:04.439 The other test is what we call eco cardiography, which 1:22:04.479 --> 1:22:07.360 is basically an ultrasound of the heart, and there you 1:22:07.400 --> 1:22:10.040 can look at function, but you can also look at structure. 1:22:10.240 --> 1:22:16.000 Because there's a condition called hypertrophic cardiomopathy, it's relatively common 1:22:16.160 --> 1:22:20.080 in athletes. It's more common there, and that accounts for 1:22:20.160 --> 1:22:23.599 about fifty percent of these sudden cardiac deaths. And so 1:22:24.280 --> 1:22:26.479 you can pick that up on an ECG, but you 1:22:26.560 --> 1:22:29.200 can also pick it up using ultrasounds. So if you 1:22:29.280 --> 1:22:32.400 scan the heart you see that it's very large, that 1:22:32.439 --> 1:22:36.000 would be a diagnosis. So first in Europe they do that. 1:22:36.560 --> 1:22:39.599 In North America and Canada and the United States they 1:22:39.600 --> 1:22:43.280 do not. The concern is there's a couple of concerns. 1:22:43.320 --> 1:22:47.519 One is the price, so you can you're screening large 1:22:47.560 --> 1:22:53.160 numbers of athletes to pick out a relative small number 1:22:53.520 --> 1:22:56.800 who may be affected. It's crude, but that is an 1:22:56.880 --> 1:22:59.920 argument that people make. So I guess the question comes 1:22:59.960 --> 1:23:02.320 to how much is life worth to you and how 1:23:02.360 --> 1:23:04.360 much do you want to spend. So there is that. 1:23:04.400 --> 1:23:06.880 But there is another issue, which is what they call 1:23:06.960 --> 1:23:12.160 false positives. So you know, had you been diagnosed as 1:23:12.240 --> 1:23:14.240 having a condition, then you maybe pulled out of training 1:23:14.280 --> 1:23:16.000 for a little while while they do more tests and 1:23:16.000 --> 1:23:19.840 stuff like that that could be very stressful on you. 1:23:19.920 --> 1:23:24.120 And so the view in North America's there's an unacceptably 1:23:24.200 --> 1:23:29.759 high number of those false positives, and so they feel 1:23:29.760 --> 1:23:34.040 that it's not worth worth doing the other issue. So 1:23:34.080 --> 1:23:36.479 I'm not sure when when did you do this screening? 1:23:36.560 --> 1:23:37.879 Was it like twenty years. 1:23:37.720 --> 1:23:40.880 Or no, ten years ago? Probably like twenty ten eleven. 1:23:41.760 --> 1:23:46.439 Yeah, So one of the issues that we have is 1:23:46.640 --> 1:23:49.960 when you have these high performance athletes, their hearts change, 1:23:50.040 --> 1:23:54.439 they get bigger, they get more efficient, their rhythms change, 1:23:54.840 --> 1:23:58.280 and they have conditions that we would pick up on 1:23:58.320 --> 1:24:04.200 ECGs and ECHO that would be considered pathological, right, But 1:24:04.479 --> 1:24:08.240 because they're athletes, these are changes that do occur in 1:24:08.280 --> 1:24:12.160 athletes as their hearts remodel, and they're not a sign 1:24:12.160 --> 1:24:15.160 of disease. Right. If you took someone who wasn't highly 1:24:15.160 --> 1:24:17.719 fit and had so for example, if you screen someone's 1:24:17.760 --> 1:24:20.639 heart and you saw that it was very large and 1:24:20.720 --> 1:24:23.920 they didn't exercise, you might be concerned. But if you're 1:24:24.160 --> 1:24:26.639 you know, an elite cyclist where your heart gets very big, 1:24:26.720 --> 1:24:29.439 it's going to be bigger. And so what we have 1:24:29.520 --> 1:24:31.800 struggled with for a number of years, is what is 1:24:31.960 --> 1:24:37.800 normal in the athlete that would be considered abnormal in 1:24:37.840 --> 1:24:41.519 the general population. Italy has done a really good job 1:24:41.560 --> 1:24:44.040 on this. So start going back into the nineteen eighties, 1:24:44.080 --> 1:24:46.439 they started to collect data because that's what we need, right, 1:24:46.439 --> 1:24:50.719 we need data from athletes, and they created a huge 1:24:51.040 --> 1:24:54.080 database which actually used in my class now to teach 1:24:54.120 --> 1:24:56.960 and say, you know, if you have an athlete and 1:24:57.040 --> 1:24:59.360 you see these things, these are things we wouldn't be 1:24:59.400 --> 1:25:02.719 concerned about. Or here's some markers where we might be concerned, 1:25:02.760 --> 1:25:04.360 and so we have to look further. And then here's 1:25:04.360 --> 1:25:06.480 some things where it doesn't matter whether you're an athlete 1:25:06.800 --> 1:25:09.759 or you know, someone who sits on their couch all day, 1:25:10.000 --> 1:25:14.200 that's a problem. But without that data, we didn't we 1:25:14.240 --> 1:25:16.800 didn't have that ability. And so I think the last 1:25:16.800 --> 1:25:20.759 time is twenty eighteen. The Europeans updated their their criteria. 1:25:20.800 --> 1:25:23.120 Each time they update it, you know, we add new 1:25:23.200 --> 1:25:26.200 things or modify things that are in there. So you 1:25:26.200 --> 1:25:28.759 would have had abnormal things. You may have had abnormal 1:25:28.800 --> 1:25:31.800 things on your ACG that the cardiologist would have looked 1:25:31.800 --> 1:25:34.040 at it and said, well, according to our athlete standards, 1:25:34.200 --> 1:25:37.200 that's okay, and we're going to ignore it. And we 1:25:37.240 --> 1:25:39.080 didn't have that until relatively recently. 1:25:39.520 --> 1:25:43.120 Okay, yeah, I do remember think like having a resting 1:25:43.160 --> 1:25:46.360 heart rate, which we'd be considered like pathologically or like 1:25:46.479 --> 1:25:49.160 dangerously low with the thing. 1:25:49.520 --> 1:25:51.800 Get yeah, braid of cardio. So it's called braid of 1:25:51.840 --> 1:25:56.439 cardia is obviously very common, right, And I give an 1:25:56.439 --> 1:25:58.760 example of my class every year where you know you 1:25:58.760 --> 1:26:01.200 have an athlete, their heart it can be forty beats 1:26:01.200 --> 1:26:04.559 for a minute. And so I said, you know you 1:26:04.560 --> 1:26:07.519 would ignore that. You go, well, they're ear elite cyclist. 1:26:07.680 --> 1:26:09.920 I get that. And I give an example where it's 1:26:09.920 --> 1:26:11.960 a woman, she's sixty three years old. They're resting heart 1:26:12.040 --> 1:26:14.800 rates forty two beats a minute. She doesn't do any exercise, 1:26:15.400 --> 1:26:17.800 and the physicians are like, oh, she must be very healthy. 1:26:17.840 --> 1:26:20.519 I'm like, no, that's not normal. And so it turned 1:26:20.560 --> 1:26:24.000 out so the reason they flagged her was because she 1:26:24.080 --> 1:26:27.599 kept passing out because she was bred a kartick and 1:26:27.680 --> 1:26:30.160 she eventually broke her nose and was sent to the hospital. 1:26:30.160 --> 1:26:32.760 They did a genetic test and found that she had 1:26:32.760 --> 1:26:38.679 a cardiac arrhythmia. Right, So my what I always teach 1:26:38.720 --> 1:26:41.639 my students is don't just look at the monitor, look 1:26:41.640 --> 1:26:44.519 at your patient, right, So when your heart rates forty 1:26:44.520 --> 1:26:47.200 beats a minute and they're cycling away and you know, 1:26:47.720 --> 1:26:49.639 he's like, yeah, that person's very fit. As like when 1:26:49.640 --> 1:26:51.599 you look and they're eighty years old and they're passing out, 1:26:52.840 --> 1:26:55.240 forty beats a minute is not normal, right, And so 1:26:56.160 --> 1:26:58.280 we don't need real high standards for some of these things, 1:26:58.320 --> 1:26:59.160 but some of them we did. 1:27:00.479 --> 1:27:03.920 And I wonder like people listening will probably be sufficiently 1:27:03.960 --> 1:27:07.640 afraid now, but I'm not, hopefully not too afraid. But like, 1:27:08.320 --> 1:27:10.760 lots of people these days are monitoring their heart rate 1:27:10.880 --> 1:27:13.400 all the time, right, They have watches, they have wristbands 1:27:13.439 --> 1:27:16.559 when they're exercising, they have chest bans, so you can 1:27:16.760 --> 1:27:18.439 monitor your heart real kinds of basics the states you 1:27:18.439 --> 1:27:23.200 can wear a ring. Would any of those devices be 1:27:23.400 --> 1:27:27.719 useful in predicting or seeing families things? 1:27:28.760 --> 1:27:34.719 Not really, only because they're they're very limited. So it's 1:27:34.760 --> 1:27:36.960 great people measure their heart rate because it is a 1:27:36.960 --> 1:27:39.719 general sign of health, and so good lowering rest lower 1:27:39.760 --> 1:27:42.240 resting heart rates is very good. And when you're exercising, 1:27:42.240 --> 1:27:44.280 you want to bring your heart rate into certain zones 1:27:45.400 --> 1:27:47.840 have effective worker. So that's all great, So I'm not 1:27:47.960 --> 1:27:51.400 trying to discurage people from doing that. But if you 1:27:51.479 --> 1:27:55.120 want to diagnose long QT syndrome, for example, in somebody, 1:27:56.280 --> 1:27:59.040 that requires calculations. So for sure, you need to measure 1:27:59.160 --> 1:28:03.160 things very accurate. Really, when I'm sure when you had 1:28:03.280 --> 1:28:06.680 your your traits done, you would have had multiple electrodes 1:28:06.680 --> 1:28:11.519 stuck on your your body. Yeah, we typically do what's 1:28:11.520 --> 1:28:15.599 called the twelve lead ECG, and so there's there's multiple 1:28:15.600 --> 1:28:19.960 electrodes and they have to be positioned in certain places 1:28:20.000 --> 1:28:22.960 in order to measure how the heart basically the heart's 1:28:22.960 --> 1:28:25.880 electricity is flowing in a certain directions because that actually 1:28:25.920 --> 1:28:29.960 tells us something. So when you have I mean, I 1:28:30.000 --> 1:28:32.720 have a device that I used to teach and to 1:28:33.080 --> 1:28:35.040 illustrate people, and it's on the back of my cell phone, 1:28:35.080 --> 1:28:36.559 and they could just you know, you put your fingers 1:28:36.600 --> 1:28:39.559 on it and you can you can you can measure 1:28:39.560 --> 1:28:41.760 things and you get an ECG off that and so 1:28:41.800 --> 1:28:45.360 it looks really neat and it's great for teaching. But 1:28:45.520 --> 1:28:48.120 I'm not going to diagnose somebody with Goddess syndrome or 1:28:48.160 --> 1:28:50.640 long QT or any of those those things. Those are 1:28:50.720 --> 1:28:57.080 much more in depth, uh to, It's required much more 1:28:57.080 --> 1:28:59.000 in depth equipment to do something. 1:28:58.720 --> 1:29:02.519 Like that, right, Yeah, yeah, definitely. Like sometimes when you 1:29:02.600 --> 1:29:04.760 ride under electricity pilots, you'll see a heart rate of 1:29:04.760 --> 1:29:07.320 two hundred and forty and it will be concerning Oh yeah, okay, 1:29:08.200 --> 1:29:10.800 it didn't work out what was connected to it. And 1:29:10.920 --> 1:29:15.400 so if these things are occurring, and obviously they care. 1:29:15.479 --> 1:29:17.960 It's sort of at a certain percentage of young athletes 1:29:18.000 --> 1:29:22.080 and certain percentage anywhere else. Are there ways that these 1:29:22.600 --> 1:29:25.040 certain kindiak risks we could reduce the number of them 1:29:25.080 --> 1:29:26.639 that result in death? 1:29:27.320 --> 1:29:33.400 Yeah, no, for sure, so CPR. So the people who 1:29:33.479 --> 1:29:37.439 die quite often die because there's there's nobody there to 1:29:37.439 --> 1:29:43.000 administer CPR, and so you lose that very valuable time. 1:29:43.960 --> 1:29:48.760 And so people are concerned about you know, stepping in 1:29:48.800 --> 1:29:52.439 and doing something and potentially hurting someone. If someone is 1:29:52.520 --> 1:29:55.320 dead like that, you're not going to hurt them, right, 1:29:55.360 --> 1:30:00.200 So you know, please learn CPR. It's not difficulty. Can 1:30:00.200 --> 1:30:08.000 certainly do that. You know. In Canada, abouteen years ago now, 1:30:08.080 --> 1:30:11.759 the Heart instruct Foundation of Canada raised a tremendous amount 1:30:11.760 --> 1:30:14.559 of money to put we call automatic extrung defibrillators or 1:30:14.560 --> 1:30:18.880 AEDs in public places. I think they put fifteen thousand 1:30:18.960 --> 1:30:23.599 of them, plus companies will buy them for o their 1:30:23.600 --> 1:30:27.599 workplaces and things like that. And so if someone goes 1:30:27.640 --> 1:30:30.800 down and their heart stops, you take these things out. 1:30:31.320 --> 1:30:34.400 There's some patches. It comes with instructions, like it will 1:30:34.439 --> 1:30:37.200 tell you actually what to do, and you take it out, 1:30:37.240 --> 1:30:39.519 you put the patches on the individual, you step back 1:30:39.560 --> 1:30:42.680 because it will deliver a shock and it will automatically 1:30:42.720 --> 1:30:45.080 shock their heart trying to get it back into rhythm. 1:30:45.240 --> 1:30:48.479 So knowing where those are, I'll say, knowing how to 1:30:48.520 --> 1:30:50.920 do them, you don't necessarily need to practice because it 1:30:50.920 --> 1:30:52.800 will walk you through it. But at least knowing where 1:30:52.800 --> 1:30:56.720 they are and not being afraid to use them, I 1:30:56.720 --> 1:31:03.000 think is very important. These quick reactions in administering care 1:31:03.120 --> 1:31:09.560 before the paramedics or someone else gets there is super important. 1:31:09.720 --> 1:31:13.400 If you let someone go five ten minutes without any 1:31:13.960 --> 1:31:16.639 you know, CPR or anything like that, there's a tremendous 1:31:16.640 --> 1:31:19.479 amount of damage that's that's done and it can't be overcome. 1:31:19.960 --> 1:31:21.920 Okay, Yeah, And I think in a lot of places 1:31:21.960 --> 1:31:25.480 in the US, certainly, like you can access free CPI 1:31:25.720 --> 1:31:29.640 AED training or your employee might pay for it or 1:31:29.760 --> 1:31:32.000 and I didn't do you know any resources people could 1:31:32.040 --> 1:31:34.719 use to find where they can find that free training. 1:31:36.080 --> 1:31:38.840 So in the States, that's the American Heart Association would 1:31:38.840 --> 1:31:42.000 be a good place to go, the American Red Crop. 1:31:42.840 --> 1:31:46.559 I'm sure they'll have resources in Canada's heartstruct Foundation of Canada, 1:31:46.880 --> 1:31:49.200 Saint John's Ambulance. But like you said, a lot of 1:31:49.800 --> 1:31:52.400 just you know, local community centers will put these things 1:31:52.439 --> 1:31:56.160 on a couple of times a year, you know, just 1:31:56.280 --> 1:31:58.760 so that people are familiar with with how to do it. 1:31:59.080 --> 1:32:01.640 Work places will sometimes do it once or twice a 1:32:01.720 --> 1:32:04.639 year have training a lot of people to just learn 1:32:04.680 --> 1:32:08.000 how to how to do it. Yeah, I'm not sure 1:32:08.000 --> 1:32:09.880 where people if you just go on the internet and 1:32:09.960 --> 1:32:12.960 wherever you are and look for first day, a lot 1:32:12.960 --> 1:32:14.280 of times it falls on the first day. But if 1:32:14.280 --> 1:32:17.320 you just google your city and CPR, I'm sure something 1:32:17.320 --> 1:32:19.280 will come up. And I bet there's something this month 1:32:19.320 --> 1:32:20.599 you could go to NICs. 1:32:20.680 --> 1:32:22.479 Yeah. Yeah, we've spoken before about to Stop the Bleed 1:32:22.600 --> 1:32:25.160 courses and how they're wills, free and easy to exist, 1:32:25.160 --> 1:32:27.120 so people could do both of those to be really 1:32:27.160 --> 1:32:30.479 set up to help people. Glenn, is there anything else 1:32:30.560 --> 1:32:33.639 you think people ought to know about these seven seven 1:32:33.680 --> 1:32:37.840 kadiak arrisk guy there sort of with the conspiracy theories 1:32:37.840 --> 1:32:39.639 around them, or anything else they can do to protect 1:32:39.640 --> 1:32:40.639 themselves through other people. 1:32:41.360 --> 1:32:47.840 Well, I think there's the perception that that by saying 1:32:47.840 --> 1:32:50.040 that there's not an issue, that it means we don't 1:32:50.160 --> 1:32:53.280 we don't care. In fact, we do care about these 1:32:53.320 --> 1:32:55.479 these issues. Like I said, I've taught about this for 1:32:56.400 --> 1:32:58.679 you know, over a decade. I have a background and 1:32:59.600 --> 1:33:02.320 doing some sports medicine work a long time ago. I 1:33:02.400 --> 1:33:10.000 certainly have a strong interest in helping these people. When 1:33:10.040 --> 1:33:14.040 we say the risk is not going up, it doesn't 1:33:14.080 --> 1:33:18.320 mean that we don't care. And so you know when 1:33:18.840 --> 1:33:21.280 a soccer player, a football player, somebody goes down on 1:33:21.320 --> 1:33:23.599 the court, that we just say, well, yeah, it happens. 1:33:24.240 --> 1:33:26.800 That's not what we're saying. We're saying we know these 1:33:26.840 --> 1:33:30.000 things happen, we do care about them. I would actually 1:33:30.040 --> 1:33:33.040 flip this around the other way and say some of 1:33:33.080 --> 1:33:35.439 these people, the people who I'm talking about, the people 1:33:35.479 --> 1:33:37.519 who are profiting off that's not people who are like 1:33:37.560 --> 1:33:41.479 I had no idea this was happening. That's okay. You know, 1:33:41.680 --> 1:33:45.240 not everybody can know everything. But the people who are 1:33:45.280 --> 1:33:48.599 saying this is increasing and they're making money off these 1:33:48.640 --> 1:33:52.840 things by selling their movies and whatever. Did you not 1:33:53.160 --> 1:33:57.439 care when someone you know died in twenty fifteen because 1:33:57.720 --> 1:34:01.360 they were in twenty nineteen or die and kids were 1:34:01.360 --> 1:34:03.160 doing it? And if you'd like to come to my class, 1:34:03.200 --> 1:34:05.439 I can show you, you know, the pictures of these 1:34:05.479 --> 1:34:09.880 people because you weren't around then. And I'm wondering, I'm 1:34:09.920 --> 1:34:11.960 not really wondering why you're around now. I know why 1:34:12.040 --> 1:34:14.760 they're they're around now. They're they're profiting off of this, 1:34:16.040 --> 1:34:18.000 and so I would actually flip it the other way 1:34:18.040 --> 1:34:22.120 and say, you know, have them ask ask them why 1:34:22.200 --> 1:34:24.560 is this new to them when when we've when the 1:34:24.680 --> 1:34:26.400 data show this has been happening all. 1:34:26.280 --> 1:34:30.000 Along, right, Yeah, And by encouraging people not to get vaccinated, 1:34:30.000 --> 1:34:32.000 they're encouraging those people to place themselves at a higher 1:34:32.080 --> 1:34:36.160 risk for the cardiac issues right for presumably a profit 1:34:36.200 --> 1:34:41.680 motive in some cases, which is very sad. Glenn, Where 1:34:41.720 --> 1:34:44.320 can people you do some excellent threads on Twitter so 1:34:44.880 --> 1:34:47.280 people can learn a lot about heart stuff? There is 1:34:47.320 --> 1:34:50.600 there anywhere else or where do you prefer people to 1:34:50.640 --> 1:34:53.479 find you? I guess online. 1:34:54.680 --> 1:34:56.719 Yeah, No, we do a lot of social media stuff. 1:34:56.720 --> 1:34:59.400 There's a lot of I know people complain about Twitter. 1:34:59.400 --> 1:35:04.439 I complain about but there's a lot of really Twitter. 1:35:05.280 --> 1:35:09.120 There a lot of really good people on there who 1:35:09.720 --> 1:35:12.960 you know, present their information. You know, you can just 1:35:13.080 --> 1:35:15.600 want to look for for those people there. What I 1:35:15.640 --> 1:35:19.640 would say is like, how do you identify who are 1:35:19.640 --> 1:35:21.400 the good people who you can trust? And stuff? Is 1:35:21.760 --> 1:35:24.840 the people who are able to be transparent with where 1:35:24.880 --> 1:35:29.720 they get their information. Right. So when I say, you know, 1:35:29.760 --> 1:35:33.599 the vaccines reduced your risk of these major cardiovascular events, 1:35:34.240 --> 1:35:37.360 I typically provide a study or something like that to 1:35:37.439 --> 1:35:41.320 show where I got that information. The people who are 1:35:41.400 --> 1:35:44.880 less trustworthy will say, you know, either go find it 1:35:44.920 --> 1:35:48.720 yourself because they don't know, or well, I can see it, 1:35:49.040 --> 1:35:52.040 I know it's happening. You know, a lot of these 1:35:52.040 --> 1:35:54.479 things are measurable, so we should be able to to 1:35:54.520 --> 1:35:57.360 find those. A lot of us write on things I've 1:35:57.360 --> 1:36:00.559 written for the Conversation Shi It's two point zero things 1:36:00.560 --> 1:36:04.240 will be there. But social media is a good place 1:36:04.280 --> 1:36:06.760 to go because you can interact with people and you 1:36:06.800 --> 1:36:11.559 can ask those those questions. So yeah, yeah, you can 1:36:11.600 --> 1:36:12.960 reach out to me and see who I follow on 1:36:12.960 --> 1:36:16.640 who I interact with if if, if you're interested in that, 1:36:17.160 --> 1:36:18.960 you could take that as a good or a bad sign. However, 1:36:19.080 --> 1:36:19.479 if you. 1:36:19.360 --> 1:36:21.799 Want to, what's your handle on Twitter? 1:36:23.040 --> 1:36:26.840 So my handle is glengey l E and pile p 1:36:27.040 --> 1:36:29.400 y l E. I'm also on the sky. I just 1:36:29.560 --> 1:36:31.120 joined that the other day, so nice. 1:36:31.200 --> 1:36:34.960 Congratulations. Yeah, that's great. I think the last point you 1:36:35.040 --> 1:36:37.759 made is one that we should maybe pursue another episode 1:36:37.800 --> 1:36:41.559 on because we the difference between anecdote and data and 1:36:42.000 --> 1:36:44.800 like so there is an increasing number I think of 1:36:44.880 --> 1:36:49.479 people doing things that look a lot like journal articles, 1:36:49.560 --> 1:36:52.479 are a lot like studies that appear with you that are 1:36:52.520 --> 1:36:57.320 not in trying to kind of leverage the credibility of 1:36:57.360 --> 1:37:01.880 that without actually doing reviewed science because of the stuff 1:37:01.880 --> 1:37:05.360 they're doing wouldn't line up with pay reviewed science. So 1:37:05.400 --> 1:37:07.200 it would be interesting to decrite there. 1:37:07.080 --> 1:37:10.040 Right, Yes, yes, it was a whole episode too. 1:37:10.240 --> 1:37:11.639 Yeah, yeah, next time. 1:37:12.520 --> 1:37:14.240 Well, thank you so much for your. 1:37:14.120 --> 1:37:17.160 Time, Jan Thanks very much, Davis. I appreciate it. 1:37:27.160 --> 1:37:29.519 Hi everyone, it's James here, and we have a wonderful 1:37:29.520 --> 1:37:31.840 episode for you today on heat and heat illness and 1:37:32.080 --> 1:37:34.400 how to protect yourself for your community and your animals 1:37:34.760 --> 1:37:37.400 when it is hot, which it is right now. But 1:37:37.560 --> 1:37:39.720 I just wanted to record this little pick up to 1:37:39.760 --> 1:37:42.080 tell you that this isn't medical advice, right produced every 1:37:42.120 --> 1:37:44.759 time we do these. I am not that kind of doctor, 1:37:44.800 --> 1:37:47.840 and I am not your doctor, and I just wanted 1:37:47.840 --> 1:37:50.479 to reinforce especially that yes, generally, of you're hot, it's 1:37:50.479 --> 1:37:53.080 a good idea to drink fluids and get out of 1:37:53.120 --> 1:37:56.920 the heat. Someone is losing consciousness or really really sick, 1:37:56.960 --> 1:38:00.120 you need to get better medical attention. Then you can 1:38:00.600 --> 1:38:02.720 learn how to give on a podcast. Right, So that's 1:38:02.760 --> 1:38:05.519 when you call someone whose job is to look after people, 1:38:05.680 --> 1:38:08.360 and I just wanted to reinforce it. Obviously, pouring water 1:38:08.439 --> 1:38:10.160 down the throat of someone who's lost consciouness is a 1:38:10.240 --> 1:38:14.160 very dumb idea, so please, if somebody is seriously unwell, 1:38:14.920 --> 1:38:23.240 seek medical care. Enjoy the episode. All right, Hi, welcome 1:38:23.240 --> 1:38:24.800 to It could happened here in a podcast where we 1:38:24.880 --> 1:38:27.400 someone knows that God, which is what I was doing 1:38:27.439 --> 1:38:31.000 just before the podcast began. Maybe we'll include that. And 1:38:31.080 --> 1:38:33.799 today we're here to talk about how God is smiting 1:38:33.920 --> 1:38:37.760 us with massive heat waves. And I'm joined today by 1:38:38.400 --> 1:38:41.920 Margaret Kiljoy and Garrison Davis say hello everyone. 1:38:42.240 --> 1:38:45.320 Hello, everyone one so. 1:38:47.320 --> 1:38:47.519 Called. 1:38:51.360 --> 1:38:56.559 Yeah, my sheeple have joined me. That's what I get 1:38:56.560 --> 1:39:00.559 for doing an episode about sheep. So as you will 1:39:00.600 --> 1:39:03.160 be away if you are in just about anywhere in 1:39:03.160 --> 1:39:05.840 the northern Hemisphere. It is very hot at the minute. 1:39:05.880 --> 1:39:09.679 It's very hot in cities in Europe. It's very hot 1:39:09.720 --> 1:39:13.000 in the United States. It's very hot in parts of 1:39:13.600 --> 1:39:16.920 North Africa and Middle East as well. It's the hottest 1:39:17.080 --> 1:39:21.400 June for how many years? Garrison July July that one. 1:39:21.240 --> 1:39:24.160 It is the hottest July, and it is one hundred 1:39:24.200 --> 1:39:28.280 and twenty thousand years according to the most recent estimates 1:39:28.320 --> 1:39:31.519 released like three days ago as a time of recording. 1:39:31.680 --> 1:39:35.760 So yeah, yeah, And we've had the hottest day in 1:39:35.920 --> 1:39:38.160 history like four times in the last month or something. 1:39:39.080 --> 1:39:41.639 In the in the first half of July, we had 1:39:41.880 --> 1:39:43.680 we had two days in a row where it was 1:39:43.720 --> 1:39:46.120 the two hottest days on record, and then we had 1:39:46.640 --> 1:39:49.160 two other days that were also the hottest days on record. 1:39:50.840 --> 1:39:54.400 It's it's pretty concerning. It's nothing that people haven't been 1:39:54.439 --> 1:40:00.599 warning about for many, many decades, but it's it's bad 1:40:00.680 --> 1:40:03.719 and it's very warm, yep. 1:40:03.880 --> 1:40:07.360 And it will continue probably to get warmer. So I 1:40:07.400 --> 1:40:09.680 think the way we want to approach this is, I'm 1:40:09.680 --> 1:40:13.000 going to start off with talking about stuff related to 1:40:13.040 --> 1:40:16.000 like exertional heat illness, because that's the thing that's most 1:40:16.000 --> 1:40:19.080 acutely concerning for people, right, especially if they work outside, 1:40:19.760 --> 1:40:23.040 if they recreate outside, if they're doing stuff outside where 1:40:23.200 --> 1:40:26.880 they can't get out of the heat. So I think 1:40:26.920 --> 1:40:28.280 to start off if I want to talk about things 1:40:28.280 --> 1:40:31.040 that might make you predisposed, and then I'm going to 1:40:31.120 --> 1:40:33.040 expend a little bit of how the body cools, and 1:40:33.080 --> 1:40:36.200 then some of these different stages of heat illnesses and 1:40:36.479 --> 1:40:41.320 how one might go about treating those or seeking further 1:40:41.360 --> 1:40:44.000 care if you need to. Right, So to start out with, 1:40:44.120 --> 1:40:46.600 there are some things that can make you predisposed to 1:40:46.640 --> 1:40:50.519 heat illness. Right, the biggest predisposition I've come acrossrom my 1:40:50.560 --> 1:40:54.240 reading is previously having heat illness. So I can certainly 1:40:54.280 --> 1:40:57.679 speak to this. Yeah, Like I think I got heat 1:40:57.680 --> 1:41:04.200 stroke for the first time. It was racing by in Spain, 1:41:04.280 --> 1:41:07.200 I think, But I then remember getting it again racing 1:41:07.240 --> 1:41:10.920 bikes in Vietnam, and just like being really bad, like 1:41:10.960 --> 1:41:16.519 having to have ivy fluids, like vomiting sort of even 1:41:16.640 --> 1:41:19.679 some like sort of not loss of consciouness, but definitely 1:41:19.680 --> 1:41:23.040 like confusion and erratic behavior and stuff. 1:41:22.760 --> 1:41:26.679 And the line between that and dying is pretty narrow, right. 1:41:27.600 --> 1:41:29.759 You can have like multiple organ failure and stuff certainly 1:41:29.760 --> 1:41:31.519 if yeah, if you don't respond to that or if 1:41:31.520 --> 1:41:36.040 you misdiagnose that, and that's definitely like I'm someone with diabetes, right, 1:41:36.080 --> 1:41:39.559 so people can sometimes if you're erratic or confused, people 1:41:39.600 --> 1:41:42.280 can assume your hypoglycemic and you need some sugar, but 1:41:42.479 --> 1:41:45.200 you don't in that situation, we need some fluids and 1:41:45.640 --> 1:41:52.000 electrolytes and to be cooled quickly. So yeah, that is yeah, 1:41:52.040 --> 1:41:55.560 you can die. People do die. Actually, the mortality is 1:41:55.640 --> 1:41:58.080 quite high, Like I too prepare for this, so I 1:41:58.080 --> 1:42:01.320 want to look at advanced Weldness Life support course I did, 1:42:02.439 --> 1:42:06.200 and people can look it up. AWLS University of Utah 1:42:06.240 --> 1:42:08.320 does one, and you can act as lots of the 1:42:08.320 --> 1:42:12.080 stuff online for free. But they would think the mortality 1:42:12.560 --> 1:42:16.880 is quite high from these like heat illnesses, and I 1:42:16.880 --> 1:42:20.400 think that's probably especially true in wilderness medicine, because it 1:42:20.439 --> 1:42:22.240 can be hard to cool someone down right if you 1:42:22.280 --> 1:42:24.639 don't have means of like if you don't have access 1:42:24.640 --> 1:42:26.800 to ice, you obviously not got air conditioning out there. 1:42:27.720 --> 1:42:30.040 If the best thing you probably have is running water, 1:42:30.040 --> 1:42:33.240 hopefully you have running water, right, And I think probably 1:42:33.840 --> 1:42:37.599 it's something that people might not have been concerned with 1:42:37.880 --> 1:42:40.040 unless they either lived in a very hot place or 1:42:40.040 --> 1:42:42.479 a very active people, or who traveled a lot before. 1:42:43.320 --> 1:42:45.360 So yeah, if you've had heat illness before, then you 1:42:45.400 --> 1:42:48.559 do need to be careful and you will probably know 1:42:48.600 --> 1:42:50.519 if you've had it before. But if we go through 1:42:50.520 --> 1:42:52.280 all the symptoms, you've had them all and never I 1:42:52.320 --> 1:42:54.880 guess got diagnosed, and lucky you, maybe you just found 1:42:54.920 --> 1:42:58.560 out you had heat illness. Other things that can predispose 1:42:58.640 --> 1:43:02.280 you can be a lack of acclimates. Again, like this 1:43:02.360 --> 1:43:04.040 is one that I think kind of stands to reason 1:43:04.080 --> 1:43:06.800 for most people. But like if you go from a 1:43:06.800 --> 1:43:09.120 cold place to hot place, or the place you are 1:43:09.200 --> 1:43:12.040 suddenly becomes hot having been cold, it's going to take 1:43:12.080 --> 1:43:15.040 you a few days a week to become a climatized 1:43:15.080 --> 1:43:17.880 to that heat, right, and your body will change. Things 1:43:17.920 --> 1:43:19.519 about your body will change, So we don't need to 1:43:19.560 --> 1:43:22.200 go into But it's also. 1:43:24.160 --> 1:43:24.880 I don't think so. 1:43:24.960 --> 1:43:29.879 I think so back when I was exercising more seriously, 1:43:30.640 --> 1:43:34.720 I would we would do heat acclimation by going in 1:43:34.760 --> 1:43:39.400 a sauna after a training ride, and the idea was like, 1:43:39.439 --> 1:43:41.400 you gave yourself this big bout of heat stress and 1:43:41.439 --> 1:43:43.680 then then you could go back and cool down. Right, 1:43:43.880 --> 1:43:45.680 So I think if you were in acy for most 1:43:45.720 --> 1:43:49.240 of the day, it was okay, I'm sort of guessing here, 1:43:49.280 --> 1:43:51.640 But if getting that bout of heat stress and then 1:43:51.680 --> 1:43:54.400 recovering and get just like any other training that you're doing, 1:43:54.760 --> 1:43:55.160 seems so. 1:43:55.560 --> 1:43:57.800 But if you go outside into the heat and then 1:43:57.840 --> 1:44:01.720 come back into the cool, you're still acclimating yourself. 1:44:02.200 --> 1:44:06.200 Yes, compared to just hanging out in you know, somewhere 1:44:06.240 --> 1:44:08.400 where it's cold all the time, and you do want it. 1:44:08.439 --> 1:44:09.960 You don't want to overdo it, right, You don't want 1:44:09.960 --> 1:44:11.439 to be like, oh, yeah, I'm going to acclimate. Time 1:44:11.439 --> 1:44:14.320 to go for a ten mile round, like, ease into it, 1:44:14.640 --> 1:44:17.240 make sure you're hydrating, make sure you're taking breaks in 1:44:17.320 --> 1:44:20.840 the heat. There's also a lack of conditioning, right, So 1:44:21.160 --> 1:44:23.479 that's why you see a lot of heat illness. Maybe 1:44:23.479 --> 1:44:25.120 that's the first time I got heat stroke. Was like 1:44:25.800 --> 1:44:30.439 pre season workouts for like especially like collegiate athletes and 1:44:30.479 --> 1:44:33.280 things or athletes who are more seasonal athletes, So people 1:44:33.280 --> 1:44:35.120 who have been parked on their backside for a few 1:44:35.120 --> 1:44:37.519 months or in class or whatever, and then they come 1:44:37.560 --> 1:44:41.320 and to start doing a rigorous training regime that can 1:44:41.880 --> 1:44:44.479 that can predispose you, right, so they can cause you 1:44:44.520 --> 1:44:47.000 to be more likely to get a heat illness. And 1:44:47.040 --> 1:44:49.519 then there are some medications, right, so you'd probably say 1:44:49.560 --> 1:44:53.280 on your medications, but things like beta block is actually hisstormyines, diuretics, 1:44:53.800 --> 1:44:56.720 you don't want to be drinking too much alcohol, and 1:44:56.800 --> 1:45:01.280 some conditions to write, heart disease, skin disease, existing dehydration 1:45:02.280 --> 1:45:06.080 fever obviously, right, your temperatures high to begin with, and 1:45:06.360 --> 1:45:11.040 diarrhea and vomiting which can cause that dehydration. Right, So 1:45:11.280 --> 1:45:14.120 looking if you have diarrhea and vomiting, it's not a 1:45:14.120 --> 1:45:16.880 good idea to also be going out and exposing yourself 1:45:16.880 --> 1:45:20.559 to a lot of heat. Right, So all of those 1:45:20.600 --> 1:45:22.720 things can make you more predisposed. But you can have 1:45:22.800 --> 1:45:27.120 none of those things and still get heat illness. I 1:45:27.160 --> 1:45:29.160 think the way to understand it is like the way 1:45:29.600 --> 1:45:32.320 we'll talk about the way our body cools, so it 1:45:32.360 --> 1:45:36.759 does that through evaporation. People will be familiar with sweating. 1:45:36.800 --> 1:45:41.880 Most people sweat and so if you the sweating allows 1:45:41.920 --> 1:45:44.000 your body to cool, right, The evaporation of the sweat 1:45:44.160 --> 1:45:47.160 allows your body to cool. So people who don't sweat, 1:45:47.680 --> 1:45:49.599 or people who have injuries which means they don't sweat 1:45:49.680 --> 1:45:52.240 some of their body again, are at a higher risk 1:45:52.680 --> 1:45:53.519 for heat illness. 1:45:53.600 --> 1:45:53.760 Right. 1:45:54.520 --> 1:46:00.040 More less assurtizes in turn like wet bulb temperature and 1:46:00.320 --> 1:46:02.320 the fact that if you're in a more humid place, 1:46:02.880 --> 1:46:07.600 you have to consider the heat very differently, right, And 1:46:07.680 --> 1:46:10.960 so yeah, yeah, the East coast versus the Southwest, for example, 1:46:11.040 --> 1:46:15.000 of the United States, will have very different options available 1:46:15.000 --> 1:46:17.960 to them, both inside and outside about how to cool down. 1:46:18.800 --> 1:46:23.360 Based on knowing the humidity outside is going to be 1:46:23.400 --> 1:46:25.960 as important for people as knowing the actual temperature. 1:46:27.120 --> 1:46:30.080 Yes, definitely, And most of the time now, if you're 1:46:30.160 --> 1:46:32.160 using a phone app, whichink most people are doing, to 1:46:32.240 --> 1:46:35.000 check the way that you can find that it will 1:46:35.040 --> 1:46:37.240 give you the humidity and give you a wet bowl 1:46:37.439 --> 1:46:41.360 or like a real feel temperature. But certainly, like I 1:46:41.560 --> 1:46:44.680 was recently on a trip to the Marshall Islands and 1:46:44.720 --> 1:46:46.439 I was running and like eighty five and I'll run 1:46:46.560 --> 1:46:49.360 eighty five all the time, and I was dying because 1:46:49.400 --> 1:46:54.559 the humidity was so high. So yeah, whether ho humidity 1:46:54.600 --> 1:46:55.880 is high, you're not going to be able to cool 1:46:55.880 --> 1:46:58.240 as much, right, so you need to be more careful 1:46:59.439 --> 1:47:03.120 radiation that that's when your body is shedding heat through, 1:47:03.160 --> 1:47:07.040 like I guess electromagnetic energy. That makes up most of 1:47:07.080 --> 1:47:10.600 your cooling when the ambrrient temperatures are less than body temperature. 1:47:10.680 --> 1:47:14.160 So once the ambient temperature is above your body temperature, 1:47:14.280 --> 1:47:19.760 I think in fahrenheit's like ninety six point six, your 1:47:19.760 --> 1:47:21.800 body's going to be relying on other methods, right, that 1:47:21.840 --> 1:47:25.559 one's not going to work. Conduction. Conduction doesn't really make 1:47:25.640 --> 1:47:28.080 up much of It's not really that useful way to cool. 1:47:29.240 --> 1:47:31.639 It doesn't really make much difference. But like people will 1:47:31.680 --> 1:47:34.080 be familiar with conduction if you've ever slept without a 1:47:34.120 --> 1:47:37.160 sleeping pad, if you've been camping, you'll realize how much 1:47:37.160 --> 1:47:40.439 colder you get on cold ground. And then the last 1:47:40.439 --> 1:47:42.720 one is convection, right, So that's heat transfer between the 1:47:42.720 --> 1:47:45.679 body and then moving gas or liquid. That's why wind 1:47:45.720 --> 1:47:49.960 chills the thing, okay, because that airs whipping past you 1:47:50.040 --> 1:47:53.160 rate cooling you down. And that's also the convection is 1:47:53.240 --> 1:47:55.360 one that we can use to cool people down if 1:47:55.360 --> 1:47:59.160 they overheat, right, like jump in the create so yes, 1:47:59.360 --> 1:48:01.280 or if we don't have a creek, we can get 1:48:01.280 --> 1:48:04.800 you wet and then fan you. Maybe we can if 1:48:05.000 --> 1:48:07.679 we're outside and we have those big thermorest sleeping pads, 1:48:08.240 --> 1:48:11.160 we can get some air moving that way and help 1:48:11.200 --> 1:48:14.360 you cool down. If we know the ways the body cools, 1:48:14.400 --> 1:48:16.640 then we can maybe use this right. And we we 1:48:16.720 --> 1:48:19.679 have to understand, like you said, the relative humidity read. 1:48:20.120 --> 1:48:23.040 So when our body gets hot, especially when it starts 1:48:23.040 --> 1:48:26.200 to overheat, it will shd some blood to the skin 1:48:26.280 --> 1:48:32.040 right vaseodilation. It will also increase cardiac output and increase 1:48:32.120 --> 1:48:34.080 catecula means which activate a sweat glands. 1:48:35.600 --> 1:48:36.760 So the. 1:48:38.439 --> 1:48:41.120 Hypothalamus will also regulate heat production in the body. 1:48:41.320 --> 1:48:43.600 And there's been two so I don't understand two of 1:48:43.640 --> 1:48:46.640 the words you've recently used. But okay, which way the 1:48:46.680 --> 1:48:51.639 words which are the words about the the cacophony and 1:48:51.680 --> 1:48:56.760 the hypert means. Okay, it's sufficient to say that the 1:48:56.800 --> 1:48:59.920 body you start to sweat more, and your body begins 1:49:00.040 --> 1:49:02.360 a regular our heart it makes itself. Okay, I got 1:49:02.400 --> 1:49:04.960 that one kind of from contact. But what's this next one? 1:49:05.920 --> 1:49:09.360 I gues see hypothalamus is like your your body's kind 1:49:09.360 --> 1:49:13.720 of internal regulator, and what it's doing is it's in 1:49:13.760 --> 1:49:18.519 this case, it's regulating the heat production of your body. Dude, 1:49:18.560 --> 1:49:24.080 it's trying to It's not making you holler from the inside. 1:49:24.080 --> 1:49:29.639 I guess that's probably a terrible explanation. Okay, So let's 1:49:29.680 --> 1:49:33.599 go through the different stages of heat illness. We can 1:49:33.600 --> 1:49:35.320 start off with things so that people will be I 1:49:35.320 --> 1:49:37.519 think we can probably skip like sunburn. Many of us 1:49:37.560 --> 1:49:39.960 will be familiar with someburn and it will have been sunburned. 1:49:40.000 --> 1:49:42.639 Many of us will understand hopefully we're wearing our suncream 1:49:42.680 --> 1:49:47.240 when we go outside, right or just wearing our suncream 1:49:46.840 --> 1:49:50.120 and covering ourselves up from the sun, not just like 1:49:50.920 --> 1:49:53.240 running around with our skin exposed to the sun when 1:49:53.240 --> 1:49:56.320 it's one hundred and ten or what have you. So 1:49:56.800 --> 1:50:00.439 step up from there would be heat cramps, and cramps 1:50:00.439 --> 1:50:02.479 can come from various things, right, Like, I think not 1:50:02.600 --> 1:50:06.719 all cramps are caused by sodium depletion or potassium depletion. 1:50:06.840 --> 1:50:10.439 People sometimes think that it's a potassium thing. Some of 1:50:10.479 --> 1:50:14.040 them can just be caused wherever exertion. It can be 1:50:14.080 --> 1:50:16.960 your body's way of being, like, hey, stop. So, like, 1:50:17.240 --> 1:50:21.120 if you know it's fifty degrees out and you're trying 1:50:21.120 --> 1:50:23.200 to run your fastest tank ca and you have cramps, 1:50:23.920 --> 1:50:27.519 that's not a heat thing, that's just your body being like, okay, 1:50:27.600 --> 1:50:28.439 you're not ready for this. 1:50:28.680 --> 1:50:32.400 Yeah, that's kind of my experience with running. Yeah. 1:50:32.720 --> 1:50:36.519 Yeah, your body's actively rejected it. Yeah, it's because it knows. 1:50:36.720 --> 1:50:38.080 I tried to join the track when I was in 1:50:38.160 --> 1:50:41.400 ninth grade to impress the girl. Neither part of it worked. 1:50:42.760 --> 1:50:45.559 I'm sorry to hear. That's fine, but it's for the best. Okay, 1:50:45.600 --> 1:50:47.360 I'm glad that you can share that with the audience. 1:50:47.920 --> 1:50:51.559 Oh that was just wait, oh no, someone's listening. Yeah anyway, Yeah. 1:50:51.600 --> 1:50:54.720 Unfortunately, So heat cramps, right, they're mostly going to be 1:50:54.760 --> 1:50:57.760 in your calves, and people will be familiar with the 1:50:57.800 --> 1:51:01.160 sensation of a cramp. I'm sure we're experiencing heat cramps. 1:51:01.760 --> 1:51:05.080 We want to obviously cool off, stop doing the thing. 1:51:05.680 --> 1:51:07.880 So if we're running, it's time to start running. If 1:51:07.880 --> 1:51:11.920 we're cycling, time stuff. Cycling, it's unlikely you're getting the 1:51:11.920 --> 1:51:14.240 where you get you get them swimming that's other kinds 1:51:14.240 --> 1:51:17.960 of cramps. But you know, if we're exercising it's good 1:51:18.000 --> 1:51:20.680 to stop, it's good to cool down, it's good to rehydrate. 1:51:21.120 --> 1:51:23.599 So that's where you're going to start with your ooral 1:51:23.640 --> 1:51:27.040 salt solution. And generally, from what I've seen, it's a 1:51:27.040 --> 1:51:30.160 sodium thing, so that that's just like a quarter to 1:51:30.160 --> 1:51:32.360 a half a teaspoon of table salt and a liter 1:51:32.439 --> 1:51:32.840 of water. 1:51:33.760 --> 1:51:37.759 This is the electrolyte thing that people talk about. Yeah, yeah, exactly. 1:51:37.840 --> 1:51:42.600 And as we get further into like these heat illnesses, 1:51:43.520 --> 1:51:45.880 one of the things that you want to be careful of. 1:51:45.960 --> 1:51:48.760 You're trying to rehydrate some when it's overloading a carbohydrate, 1:51:48.800 --> 1:51:51.280 so you want a less than six percent carbohydrate solution. 1:51:53.560 --> 1:51:56.280 That can mean just not pounding gatorade, which I think 1:51:56.320 --> 1:51:58.720 can be like the sort of standard response for some 1:51:58.800 --> 1:52:02.280 people because it just it doesn't empty quite as quickly 1:52:02.360 --> 1:52:06.000 at something which has a lower carbohydrate content. 1:52:06.120 --> 1:52:10.679 Right, Okay, but people who are drinking drinking straight water 1:52:10.760 --> 1:52:14.000 doesn't rehydrate you as effectively as drinking electrolytes. Right, Like, 1:52:14.200 --> 1:52:16.240 if it's really hot out, you pretty much need to 1:52:16.280 --> 1:52:19.160 be hydrating with electrolytes. This is unless you're like eating 1:52:19.160 --> 1:52:21.519 a salty snack or something. This is what I've heard 1:52:21.600 --> 1:52:22.080 from people. 1:52:23.320 --> 1:52:27.479 Yeah, there's a thing called hypernatremia, which is when the 1:52:27.520 --> 1:52:30.840 opposite that's like low sodium, right, then that's that can 1:52:30.920 --> 1:52:35.639 happen sometimes from just drinking straight water without any sodium. 1:52:35.920 --> 1:52:40.240 It happens rarely, but it definitely can happen. It can 1:52:40.280 --> 1:52:42.800 happen in like backcountry travel where people don't think they're 1:52:42.840 --> 1:52:45.000 exerting themselves, they're just kind of walking and drinking a 1:52:45.040 --> 1:52:47.280 lot of water. It can happen in marathons, like it 1:52:47.280 --> 1:52:50.200 happens sometimes in marathons people are just taking the water 1:52:50.240 --> 1:52:53.240 from the age station to just drinking the water. Yeah, 1:52:53.280 --> 1:52:57.240 it's never like it's you know, when it's hot, if 1:52:57.240 --> 1:52:59.960 you're having you know, when I was bi racing, a 1:53:00.120 --> 1:53:01.600 to do one drink of water and one drink of 1:53:01.640 --> 1:53:05.200 electrolyte even in the heat, pretty much like one bottle. 1:53:05.240 --> 1:53:07.040 There are two bottles on a bicycle thing. I think 1:53:07.080 --> 1:53:08.680 that's a fine thing to do if you're in the 1:53:08.720 --> 1:53:12.400 heat and in you're exercising. You don't need to be 1:53:12.439 --> 1:53:14.880 smashing gatorade all the time because that's a lot of 1:53:14.920 --> 1:53:17.639 sugar and it might that will also not empty from 1:53:17.640 --> 1:53:21.639 your stomach. So, you know, a modern sports drink should 1:53:21.680 --> 1:53:24.759 have the right solution. You know, there are lots of brands. 1:53:24.760 --> 1:53:28.120 I'm not going to recommend one, but there are lots 1:53:28.120 --> 1:53:29.760 of different brands which should have a decent sort of 1:53:29.800 --> 1:53:33.200 four or five percent carbo hydrate solution, and I think 1:53:33.280 --> 1:53:36.080 one that tastes nice to you. And then we move 1:53:36.160 --> 1:53:39.120 from there into a couple of different things, heat exhaustion 1:53:39.360 --> 1:53:44.240 and heat syncope. Heat syncope is when you'll see people 1:53:44.840 --> 1:53:49.240 like fall over, and it happens often like the only 1:53:49.240 --> 1:53:51.360 time I've seen it happen is people stopping after like 1:53:51.400 --> 1:53:55.559 a long run, like specifically like when they push themselves 1:53:55.560 --> 1:53:59.240 really hard, right, And it can actually be it can 1:53:59.280 --> 1:54:04.960 be people who are not particularly dehydrated or hypothermic, but 1:54:05.280 --> 1:54:06.680 a sort of a long run and heat you're not 1:54:06.720 --> 1:54:10.679 acclimated to. It can blood can pull in the legs, 1:54:11.160 --> 1:54:14.439 and it's it's often people who are elderly are not 1:54:14.520 --> 1:54:17.720 very well acclimated, and it's normally when they're standing at 1:54:17.760 --> 1:54:24.400 stationary and that's something that you can treat by elevating 1:54:24.400 --> 1:54:27.920 the feet where's the personal lies down, and then just 1:54:27.960 --> 1:54:30.840 getting them out of direct sunlight and helping them rehydrate, right, 1:54:30.920 --> 1:54:34.240 So helping them cool rehydrate. You're going to see that 1:54:34.560 --> 1:54:36.840 in nearly all of these cases, cooling someone off it's 1:54:37.080 --> 1:54:39.600 the most important thing to do. So next time we 1:54:39.600 --> 1:54:43.160 talk about heat exhaustion again, like you'll know something is 1:54:43.200 --> 1:54:46.360 wrong in these situations, right, Like if someone's just just 1:54:46.440 --> 1:54:48.440 like falling over, you will know something is wrong. If 1:54:48.440 --> 1:54:52.720 someone's yeah, then in case he's like you'll know like 1:54:52.800 --> 1:54:56.440 having had heat exhaustion heat stroke, like you yourself will 1:54:56.480 --> 1:54:59.800 also know. There are certain like like ecstasy is a 1:54:59.800 --> 1:55:02.760 big one, right when people people quite often get heat 1:55:02.760 --> 1:55:06.480 illness when they're like at raves on ecstasy. And that's 1:55:06.520 --> 1:55:10.480 just because obviously like altered state of mind plus dancing, 1:55:10.920 --> 1:55:14.360 uh plus plus this drug, which is you know, your 1:55:14.360 --> 1:55:17.040 body is not not making its usual responses, I guess, 1:55:18.240 --> 1:55:21.640 and that can be so like, you know, if it's 1:55:21.640 --> 1:55:23.400 one hundred and ten out, maybe that's not the time 1:55:23.560 --> 1:55:26.200 to be doing M B M A and raving. 1:55:26.440 --> 1:55:32.240 Cop cop cop behavior. James, Yeah, yeah, I can't stand 1:55:32.280 --> 1:55:34.680 by and here And just as you spread this M 1:55:34.760 --> 1:55:38.240 D M A slander, people should People should absolutely be 1:55:39.160 --> 1:55:42.400 knowledgeable about what causes their atonin syndrome and be careful 1:55:42.400 --> 1:55:45.720 about mixing other substances but I cannot have you just 1:55:45.840 --> 1:55:46.800 disparage the. 1:55:46.840 --> 1:55:48.720 Good name of MDMA like this. 1:55:49.200 --> 1:55:52.000 Oh I will, I will take it one step further 1:55:52.200 --> 1:55:55.600 and tell you that, at least with my research, both 1:55:55.640 --> 1:55:58.520 caffeine and alcohol make it far more likely for you 1:55:58.600 --> 1:56:03.280 to suffer dehydration and related heat dehydration. 1:56:03.560 --> 1:56:05.440 Yes, this is this is just that, this is an 1:56:05.440 --> 1:56:08.760 actual problem that people should mix like with m d 1:56:08.920 --> 1:56:12.400 m A. This is something to look up because because 1:56:12.400 --> 1:56:14.680 of the way it affects your serotonin levels, it can 1:56:14.800 --> 1:56:17.760 cause you to overheat if you take too much or 1:56:17.800 --> 1:56:20.720 come out with other things, or if you're in a hot, sweaty, 1:56:20.800 --> 1:56:23.120 crowded room you're dancing too much without taking breaks. This 1:56:23.440 --> 1:56:24.400 is a thing to consider. 1:56:26.080 --> 1:56:31.640 Yes, yeah, I had. There was a person it was 1:56:31.800 --> 1:56:33.880 I think it was reference in the in the course 1:56:33.920 --> 1:56:35.720 they did where they would talk about using a drone 1:56:36.040 --> 1:56:40.640 rave to identify people who are hypothermic and like that, 1:56:41.400 --> 1:56:43.080 like you what you want to step away from the 1:56:43.160 --> 1:56:46.360 dance floor, like to identify beople who at risk, which 1:56:46.400 --> 1:56:50.480 is an interesting idea. That's cool, I think. Yeah, So 1:56:50.760 --> 1:56:53.240 just you know something to consider as you go forward 1:56:53.280 --> 1:56:58.600 with yoursemble plants. So other signs, right, tiredness, weakness, uziness, headache, fainting, 1:56:59.120 --> 1:57:02.920 knows you're vomiting, muscle cramps, nausea and vomiting. It's ralph. 1:57:02.960 --> 1:57:06.440 I remember that the worst heat on this I've ever 1:57:06.480 --> 1:57:10.960 had was in Vietnam doing a bike race. One of 1:57:10.960 --> 1:57:12.720 the rules in a bike races that you can't take 1:57:14.280 --> 1:57:17.160 supplies from your support car in the last fifty kilometers, 1:57:18.000 --> 1:57:20.680 and it was just so hot, and I remember being like, 1:57:20.960 --> 1:57:23.600 I'm baking inside my skull. I'm baking it inside my skull, 1:57:23.800 --> 1:57:26.640 like and I'd been previously in like a little group 1:57:26.680 --> 1:57:28.120 in front of the main group, so I also hadn't 1:57:28.160 --> 1:57:30.520 been able to access water from my car then and 1:57:30.600 --> 1:57:33.080 then drop, we got caught by the main group, is 1:57:33.120 --> 1:57:35.800 what happened. And I remember being like, okay, good, Now 1:57:35.840 --> 1:57:37.640 I can get my eye socks and put them down 1:57:37.720 --> 1:57:40.200 my back and I can get my cold water. And 1:57:40.240 --> 1:57:42.520 then I went back and the guy was like, no, no, no, 1:57:43.480 --> 1:57:46.680 it's like forty nine kilometers and I was like, oh, 1:57:46.800 --> 1:57:48.880 this is bad, this is really fucking bad. And it 1:57:49.040 --> 1:57:49.640 was really bad. 1:57:50.760 --> 1:57:51.040 Did you. 1:57:53.560 --> 1:57:58.800 Be I'm sure? Yeah I did. I finished the race. Congrats, Yeah, No, 1:57:59.280 --> 1:58:02.880 terrible decision at the picture somewhere. My teammates put me 1:58:02.880 --> 1:58:04.600 in a shower with like my legs above my head 1:58:04.640 --> 1:58:07.000 it which was just like waterboarding me with cold water, 1:58:07.240 --> 1:58:11.120 and I was given ivy fluid and they were all like, oh, 1:58:11.120 --> 1:58:16.120 this is bad. He's not in a good way. Yeah, 1:58:16.240 --> 1:58:18.760 yeah that you know, sport is good for you. Keep 1:58:18.840 --> 1:58:22.560 sporting out there, kids. Everyone was very concerned for me. 1:58:23.600 --> 1:58:25.600 My All the stuff I came up with was like 1:58:25.920 --> 1:58:32.640 stay inside, don't exert yourself, like avoid caffeine and alcohol. Yeah, 1:58:32.760 --> 1:58:34.800 if you want to push yourself past your limits. 1:58:36.240 --> 1:58:39.839 Yeah, yeah, don't know it's bad. But we did everything 1:58:39.880 --> 1:58:42.360 wrong right, Like it was in December the race, because 1:58:44.000 --> 1:58:46.760 the Asian Tour doesn't take a break at like the 1:58:46.880 --> 1:58:49.080 December and a few time it takes a break from Ramadan. 1:58:49.240 --> 1:58:52.760 So obviously coming from the United States, we were relatively 1:58:52.880 --> 1:58:55.160 less fit than we would have been. We were not acclimated. 1:58:55.440 --> 1:58:58.280 I had a fat beard, which did not help, and 1:58:58.320 --> 1:59:00.520 like my hair was longer than it is now, My 1:59:00.560 --> 1:59:05.560 body was not losing heat. Everything was I doing this 1:59:05.560 --> 1:59:10.120 this race? Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, going out there like 1:59:10.320 --> 1:59:14.080 full Look if there's nothing that what is more white 1:59:14.080 --> 1:59:15.600 man on the left and you know, got white dude 1:59:15.640 --> 1:59:18.240 with a beard. It's like all of them, right, crook 1:59:18.280 --> 1:59:22.920 and bacuona marks, and you have to try it. Yeah, 1:59:22.960 --> 1:59:25.240 don't do that. Don't do that to yourself. We talked 1:59:25.280 --> 1:59:27.320 about heats and cope and the last one is heat stroke. 1:59:27.400 --> 1:59:31.760 So what differentiates heat stroke from heat exhaustion is that 1:59:31.840 --> 1:59:34.800 higher body temperature above forty degrees celsius, which is one 1:59:34.880 --> 1:59:37.680 hundred and three hundred and four fahrenheit. If you're seeing 1:59:37.680 --> 1:59:39.640 one hundred and three, it's time to pick up the 1:59:39.640 --> 1:59:42.400 telephone and call nine on one if you can, if 1:59:42.400 --> 1:59:43.720 you're in an area where you can do that. But 1:59:43.800 --> 1:59:45.360 it doesn't matter. It's one hundred and three one hundred 1:59:45.360 --> 1:59:47.360 and four. I guess it's that you're very hot. At 1:59:47.360 --> 1:59:52.360 that point, you're going to have hot, red skin, a 1:59:52.360 --> 1:59:56.280 fast strong pulse, headache, dizziness, naughty of confusion. People can 1:59:56.320 --> 2:00:03.480 also lose consciousness. So this is very serious, right, And 2:00:03.520 --> 2:00:06.920 the line between this and really serious lasting complications is 2:00:06.960 --> 2:00:10.200 quite quite small, So you do need to be very 2:00:11.000 --> 2:00:13.520 extremely concerned. I will say that, like when you're taking 2:00:13.560 --> 2:00:19.480 someone's temperature, taking it at the extremities is not necessarily 2:00:19.520 --> 2:00:23.400 going to give you the best idea of what their 2:00:23.400 --> 2:00:27.280 core body temperature is, right, and so that's sort of 2:00:27.320 --> 2:00:29.520 reason that like if if they're hot, if like, if 2:00:29.560 --> 2:00:31.560 it's hot, they're hot on the outside, right, like an 2:00:31.600 --> 2:00:34.800 ear or what have you. And then if you if 2:00:34.800 --> 2:00:37.040 you've then tried to cool the person and you're seeing 2:00:37.560 --> 2:00:39.160 like a lower body temperature in their hand or if 2:00:39.160 --> 2:00:41.520 you're yeah, if their hands been in ice, you know, 2:00:41.840 --> 2:00:44.520 in ice bath, then you might see a cooler temperature there. 2:00:44.600 --> 2:00:47.320 And that's that there are like rectal probes are used 2:00:47.320 --> 2:00:50.000 for this not something to be doing in a sort 2:00:50.000 --> 2:00:53.400 of non consensual manner. They're not really something to be 2:00:53.440 --> 2:00:57.360 doing unless you're like a medical professional. But if you're, 2:00:58.160 --> 2:01:00.400 if so, just don't don't be relying again. So you know, 2:01:00.400 --> 2:01:02.040 people have those little heat guns that they like to 2:01:02.120 --> 2:01:05.800 use and stuff might not be the most reliable source 2:01:05.800 --> 2:01:06.880 of information. 2:01:06.560 --> 2:01:08.480 Although it might be useful for the initial. 2:01:10.680 --> 2:01:14.720 Diagnosis, right, Yeah, even then, like if even if you 2:01:14.720 --> 2:01:16.960 can just do an ooral thermometer as opposed to like 2:01:17.000 --> 2:01:20.120 the temperature if your forehead is ox like, if it's 2:01:20.120 --> 2:01:22.440 one hundred and ten, then the temperature of your forehead 2:01:22.680 --> 2:01:23.920 is going to be hot, right. 2:01:24.000 --> 2:01:26.280 I see what you're saying. Yeah, yeah, totally okay. 2:01:26.720 --> 2:01:30.280 Versus you know you're trying to get as inside as possible. 2:01:30.320 --> 2:01:34.840 I guess yeah. I remember people doing cooling experiments where 2:01:34.840 --> 2:01:36.440 you have to take a pill when it measured your 2:01:36.480 --> 2:01:43.440 internal temperature and well bluetoothed out or something. Yeah, so 2:01:44.040 --> 2:01:46.520 it's fun times. I think that's cool. 2:01:46.880 --> 2:01:51.080 I want one rescuing it later sounds like not fun. 2:01:52.000 --> 2:01:54.360 Yeah, yeah, yeah, it does make an exit for the body. 2:01:55.520 --> 2:01:58.040 So with this again, right, you want to cool the 2:01:58.080 --> 2:02:01.360 person down, and the way we can do that it's 2:02:01.400 --> 2:02:04.560 like ice packs right in the groin, neck and scalp. 2:02:05.080 --> 2:02:08.040 So I used to do like just tights, like if 2:02:08.040 --> 2:02:11.160 you're wearing tights, put ice in those and put those 2:02:11.200 --> 2:02:13.800 down my back of my cycling jersey or no cycling. 2:02:14.200 --> 2:02:15.920 You can put them in the groins obviously the person 2:02:16.120 --> 2:02:17.880 has become like a heat casualty. You can put them 2:02:17.880 --> 2:02:24.240 in the groin, armpits, the neck, and you can also 2:02:24.520 --> 2:02:27.040 if you don't have access to AC obviously you've got 2:02:27.040 --> 2:02:28.800 a c you can put the person in an air 2:02:28.840 --> 2:02:31.560 conditioned environment to help them cool down. You can put 2:02:31.600 --> 2:02:34.600 them in an ice bath. You'll see that like at 2:02:34.640 --> 2:02:38.840 hot weather events. I'm trying to think there are a 2:02:38.840 --> 2:02:40.840 lot of other conditions that you'll see a hot weather events. 2:02:40.880 --> 2:02:43.640 We don't really have time to talk about. Things like 2:02:43.760 --> 2:02:48.040 rabdough are very very concerning if someone's exercising in the heat. 2:02:48.040 --> 2:02:50.040 But you'll often see at the end of hot events 2:02:50.480 --> 2:02:53.240 in first day tents they're popping people in ice bas 2:02:53.240 --> 2:02:56.000 to cool them down. They've got some of these symptoms, 2:02:56.440 --> 2:02:58.040 like fifteen twenty minutes I think is how long you 2:02:58.080 --> 2:03:00.520 want to put them in there for. But like if 2:03:00.560 --> 2:03:03.760 you're starting to feel headache, dizziness, and nausea, I guess 2:03:04.600 --> 2:03:06.760 my big take home here is get out of the sun, 2:03:07.240 --> 2:03:11.200 stop exercising if you're exercising, and start hydrating. If you're 2:03:11.200 --> 2:03:14.720 not hydrating with with that carbohydrate solution and you're looking 2:03:14.800 --> 2:03:18.520 to drop that cool temperature, that core temperature below that 2:03:18.760 --> 2:03:20.400 kind of danger zone, right, and I really get it 2:03:20.440 --> 2:03:22.880 back to where what's to be, which which I think 2:03:22.880 --> 2:03:27.600 in fahrenheit's around ninety six point six. You you probably 2:03:27.600 --> 2:03:29.600 don't want to actively cool someone all the way down 2:03:29.680 --> 2:03:33.600 because you can overshoot and they can get hypothermic and 2:03:33.800 --> 2:03:37.600 so like they can they can get too cold if 2:03:37.680 --> 2:03:40.040 you're like you know, dumping them in a freezer or 2:03:40.200 --> 2:03:44.920 like you know, actively calling them to aggressively. So that's 2:03:44.960 --> 2:03:46.920 something to be concerned with as well. And you don't 2:03:46.920 --> 2:03:49.840 want the person to start shivering because the body's trying 2:03:49.880 --> 2:03:52.000 to heat yourself back up at that point, so you 2:03:52.040 --> 2:03:57.160 can't be uber aggressive. But I think having said all this, 2:03:57.400 --> 2:04:00.400 like I said, the big take home is like if 2:04:00.400 --> 2:04:05.640 you start to feel sick, dizzy underwell, when you're outside 2:04:05.600 --> 2:04:07.680 in the heat, to get out the heat, get some water, 2:04:08.760 --> 2:04:11.160 get into shade, if you can, get their conditioning if 2:04:11.160 --> 2:04:13.440 you can. If you're at a job site, you know, 2:04:13.720 --> 2:04:16.760 if there's like a trailer where you with the sad conditioned, 2:04:16.840 --> 2:04:20.440 go in the trailer, like it's not worth your life, 2:04:20.520 --> 2:04:21.480 even if it's your job. 2:04:21.800 --> 2:04:22.640 You want to know it's fun? 2:04:23.320 --> 2:04:24.320 Is that what's fun? 2:04:24.640 --> 2:04:27.440 In the United States, there's no federal law that says 2:04:27.440 --> 2:04:32.120 you can't make people work in the hot weather without 2:04:32.160 --> 2:04:36.040 hell yeah, some states, less than half. I don't have 2:04:36.080 --> 2:04:37.560 the notes in front of me. I have the notes 2:04:37.560 --> 2:04:41.200 for a different thing I recorded recently. Some states, like 2:04:41.280 --> 2:04:45.200 sixteen of them or sometime maybe have laws against working 2:04:45.240 --> 2:04:49.440 people outside in the heat, but most states don't. The 2:04:49.480 --> 2:04:52.920 federal government is like considering one right now, but that 2:04:53.080 --> 2:04:56.480 is like probably years away before it could be enacted. 2:04:56.480 --> 2:05:01.120 But it's like basic worker protections, like don't have people 2:05:01.160 --> 2:05:05.000 work outside without enough stuff to make sure they don't. 2:05:05.000 --> 2:05:11.360 Die of it. Consider forming a union. Yeah, google Blair 2:05:11.440 --> 2:05:15.280 Mountain for more information on how to respond if you're 2:05:15.320 --> 2:05:17.600 not allowed, if you're not allowed to take breaks for 2:05:17.640 --> 2:05:17.920 the heat. 2:05:18.080 --> 2:05:20.760 Yeah yeah, yeah. 2:05:21.320 --> 2:05:24.360 Talking of how capitalism is killing us all, Margaret, it's 2:05:24.400 --> 2:05:26.120 time for us to break for some adverts so things 2:05:26.160 --> 2:05:26.760 people can buy. 2:05:26.960 --> 2:05:31.240 Oh, we have we have some breaking news here, folks. 2:05:31.280 --> 2:05:33.920 We have some breaking sheep news. So it turns out 2:05:34.440 --> 2:05:39.800 during during during James's Last Sheep episode, he talked about 2:05:40.080 --> 2:05:47.040 having texel sheep way when it's actually tessel sheep. 2:05:46.960 --> 2:05:50.760 So this is really no, they're they're definitely Texels. 2:05:50.520 --> 2:05:57.480 Who's pretty exciting here who the largest northwestern islands of 2:05:57.520 --> 2:06:00.520 the of the Netherlands. It's one of those European places 2:06:00.520 --> 2:06:04.480 where the pronuncidation, where the pronunciation does not match how 2:06:04.480 --> 2:06:07.640 it's written. And it's tessel sheep, not textel sheep. So 2:06:07.720 --> 2:06:14.520 this is pretty exciting for me. And usually James gets 2:06:14.520 --> 2:06:19.000 to make fun of how I pronounce words and now. 2:06:19.000 --> 2:06:23.160 And now now now looks so here we go here? 2:06:23.000 --> 2:06:25.600 Well should we? I mean, should we move into like 2:06:25.760 --> 2:06:28.440 machinations versus machinations or should we just move on? 2:06:28.800 --> 2:06:31.440 No, I think we can just move on here where 2:06:31.520 --> 2:06:36.760 We'll just start a Buenos Aires and move from there. Yeah, Garrison, 2:06:36.840 --> 2:06:40.280 the Speaker of Free, I have a hard life. They 2:06:40.280 --> 2:06:42.200 did not teach me how to say words in Canada. 2:06:42.680 --> 2:06:43.440 It was all I know. 2:06:44.000 --> 2:06:47.400 It was all tongues in the school. We couldn't We 2:06:47.440 --> 2:06:51.080 didn't actually learn much much English so much woods. 2:06:51.160 --> 2:06:55.200 Yeah, don't worry. Yeah, we're we're all learning as we go. 2:06:55.320 --> 2:06:57.280 You see, there we go. Yeah, I've just I've just 2:06:57.360 --> 2:07:02.000 learned that the place is called Tehsel and then that's 2:07:02.120 --> 2:07:03.240 the sheep from there. 2:07:03.840 --> 2:07:05.240 Is there an X in it or something? 2:07:05.840 --> 2:07:10.480 No? Yes, when you're yeah, is there an X all 2:07:10.520 --> 2:07:14.920 the time? T E XL Yeah, I always see, but 2:07:15.160 --> 2:07:22.320 X sounds the X sounds like an S. Yeah speaking, Yeah, fascinating. Yeah, wow, 2:07:22.720 --> 2:07:26.320 I like all my life I've been misnaming the very 2:07:26.400 --> 2:07:29.560 sheep that many of you enjoyed hearing about. 2:07:30.280 --> 2:07:33.440 Sad that no wonder the sheep weren't coming when you called, 2:07:34.400 --> 2:07:37.360 they felt no they come disrespected. Yeah, well never mind. 2:07:37.440 --> 2:07:38.920 Yeah, Well, to be fair, I just go out there 2:07:38.920 --> 2:07:43.160 and say sheep, so you know I'm hedging my beds 2:07:43.360 --> 2:07:44.920 with the pronunciation of that one. 2:07:45.360 --> 2:07:49.640 Well, you want to talk about animals and heat waves. 2:07:50.240 --> 2:07:51.720 I would love to, Yeah, tell me. It was like, 2:07:51.720 --> 2:07:52.600 tell me what to do with your sheep. 2:07:52.680 --> 2:07:55.320 I talk about humans and heat and she and heat waves. 2:07:55.440 --> 2:07:57.320 So actually, ironically, one of the things that I learned, 2:07:57.360 --> 2:07:59.240 I don't know whether or not applies to sheep. I 2:07:59.280 --> 2:08:02.360 was talking before this to one of my professional animal 2:08:02.440 --> 2:08:06.600 friends who has worked in veterinary clinics and also as 2:08:06.640 --> 2:08:12.480 a professional horse person. So there's some stuff to know, right, 2:08:13.200 --> 2:08:19.000 for all of the people who aren't humans. Different animals 2:08:19.040 --> 2:08:21.440 need different electrolyte feel formulas if you are going to 2:08:21.480 --> 2:08:26.720 feed them electrolytes, and for example, dogs need more sugar 2:08:26.760 --> 2:08:29.520 and less salt because they their bodies don't get rid 2:08:29.560 --> 2:08:31.960 of salt as much. Right, they don't really sweat nearly 2:08:32.040 --> 2:08:36.360 so much. Occasional pedialyte or some other like non gator 2:08:36.360 --> 2:08:39.200 ady thing is fine every now and then, and probably 2:08:39.240 --> 2:08:41.080 gatorades probably fine every now and then. But don't be 2:08:41.160 --> 2:08:45.120 like you can go hiking and just drink electrolytes right, 2:08:45.280 --> 2:08:49.200 not sugar water, but electrolytes. But don't do that with 2:08:49.240 --> 2:08:51.920 your dog, even if it's super hot out. There is 2:08:52.120 --> 2:08:54.680 dog specific stuff and there's formulas you can look up 2:08:54.720 --> 2:08:59.120 for dog specific making your own. Don't shave your pets. 2:08:59.200 --> 2:09:00.640 This is the one that I do know if applies 2:09:00.680 --> 2:09:01.080 to sheep. 2:09:01.280 --> 2:09:04.160 My friend said, this does not apply to sheep. You 2:09:04.280 --> 2:09:05.840 have to share their You want to have to share 2:09:05.880 --> 2:09:07.400 your sheep or else they will overheat and die. 2:09:07.560 --> 2:09:10.960 Yeah, okay, yeah, you want to share your sheep. Yeah. 2:09:11.600 --> 2:09:13.600 Some animals you want to shave. Some animals you don't. 2:09:13.640 --> 2:09:15.240 If you have animals, you should look this up ahead 2:09:15.280 --> 2:09:17.120 of time. Some people like run out and shave their 2:09:17.120 --> 2:09:19.720 cats and dogs if in the heat wave. This is 2:09:19.760 --> 2:09:23.160 a very bad thing. The hair is designed to protect 2:09:23.200 --> 2:09:26.400 them from the sun. Also, especially like if you have 2:09:26.440 --> 2:09:29.280 a dog with a double coat, it does a lot 2:09:29.320 --> 2:09:31.520 of weird heat transfer stuff and it's really kind of 2:09:31.520 --> 2:09:35.640 cool and magic. Brushing and grooming are very good. If 2:09:35.680 --> 2:09:38.200 your dog is like slow to its summer coat, or 2:09:38.720 --> 2:09:42.280 it's summer is suddenly here eleven months of the year, 2:09:42.960 --> 2:09:45.360 or as I predict, there's going to be two seasons, 2:09:45.400 --> 2:09:48.440 there's going to be summer, which will last for nine months, 2:09:48.480 --> 2:09:50.920 and then there's going to be hell mouth, which will 2:09:50.960 --> 2:09:55.680 replace what was previously summer. Don't take your dog out 2:09:55.680 --> 2:09:57.920 in the hottest weather. It is better that your dog 2:09:57.920 --> 2:10:00.680 pisses inside it gets heatstroke. It is harder identify heat 2:10:00.680 --> 2:10:02.560 stroke and a dog, but if the dog is like 2:10:02.640 --> 2:10:05.600 panting a particular amount, there's like other things about looking 2:10:05.640 --> 2:10:06.560 to the gums and eyes. 2:10:07.240 --> 2:10:09.080 I got bitten by a dog that was having a 2:10:09.120 --> 2:10:11.800 heat stroke on my God, forcedy lie, it was good. 2:10:11.800 --> 2:10:13.040 I feel bad for both. 2:10:13.280 --> 2:10:14.360 The animals involved in that. 2:10:14.520 --> 2:10:19.160 Yeah, could feel fairly secure in saying that people who 2:10:19.720 --> 2:10:21.800 were looking off to dog aren't listening. But like, yeah, 2:10:21.840 --> 2:10:25.360 they made a series of very poor choices. Yeah, yeah, 2:10:25.360 --> 2:10:27.160 and like it wasn't nice. 2:10:27.600 --> 2:10:30.280 Hiking is my main activity and it is like my 2:10:30.360 --> 2:10:32.440 main bonding with me and my dog, and I am 2:10:32.480 --> 2:10:34.720 not doing it during a lot of the heat wave, 2:10:36.680 --> 2:10:39.080 and I'm finding other ways. I'm you know, because I'm 2:10:39.440 --> 2:10:41.680 I have to drive a decent way to go hiking, right, 2:10:41.760 --> 2:10:44.280 so I can't do it early in the morning unless 2:10:44.280 --> 2:10:46.760 I wake up earlier than I want to. But if 2:10:46.760 --> 2:10:49.720 you are going to do austseid activities with both yourself 2:10:49.880 --> 2:10:53.720 or with an animal. Consider doing them at early in 2:10:53.720 --> 2:10:56.440 the morning or late in the evening or mill the night. 2:10:56.440 --> 2:10:56.920 And I don't want it. 2:10:56.960 --> 2:11:01.200 Whatever if you have animals that can't come inside, because 2:11:01.200 --> 2:11:03.320 overall was going to apply to your animals, is it 2:11:03.320 --> 2:11:04.760 was going to apply to humans, like get them into 2:11:04.760 --> 2:11:07.080 the ac Like what are you doing? But a lot 2:11:07.120 --> 2:11:09.280 of animals you don't have a room for inside, right 2:11:09.760 --> 2:11:12.240 unless you're a medieval Irish peasant, in which case I've 2:11:12.280 --> 2:11:16.160 read way too much about how much those animals live inside. 2:11:16.880 --> 2:11:19.320 Yeah, cows under the house, so the warmth comes up. 2:11:21.560 --> 2:11:24.560 So you want a cross breeze in your barn or 2:11:24.560 --> 2:11:27.280 coop or whatever. If it's a coop, you want to 2:11:27.280 --> 2:11:29.560 make sure there's a place at the top for air 2:11:29.600 --> 2:11:32.560 to come escape. And you don't want the box style 2:11:32.640 --> 2:11:35.360 coop with only one entrance. If you're dealing with heat waves, 2:11:36.640 --> 2:11:39.280 you want a lot of cool water that is easy 2:11:39.320 --> 2:11:41.280 to drink. And so a lot of people who normally 2:11:41.280 --> 2:11:44.160 feed their animals with like the nipple style feeders, different animals, 2:11:44.200 --> 2:11:46.960 you have different ways of watering them. No, no nipple 2:11:47.000 --> 2:11:49.280 style feeders. During a heat wave, the animal needs to 2:11:49.320 --> 2:11:51.800 be able to get into the get the water easily. 2:11:53.360 --> 2:11:55.839 For chickens, you might want to bring your nesting boxes 2:11:55.880 --> 2:11:58.840 down to the ground floor where it's cooler. You also 2:11:58.960 --> 2:12:01.800 might want to consider insult lading the coop, like with 2:12:01.880 --> 2:12:03.920 hay bales, for example, you could stack them up next 2:12:03.960 --> 2:12:08.560 to your coop. Horses have yet another electrolyte mix. My 2:12:08.680 --> 2:12:11.960 horse professional friend uses one called Gallagher's Water, but points 2:12:11.960 --> 2:12:15.160 out that it's like mostly bougie people use it when 2:12:15.200 --> 2:12:17.080 they're when most people have horses are bougie, but not 2:12:17.120 --> 2:12:20.920 all of them, right at least where I live. Other places. Okay, 2:12:20.960 --> 2:12:25.560 so it's only necessary in extreme circumstances. It's only better 2:12:25.600 --> 2:12:28.840 than water in extreme circumstances. Most animals do very well 2:12:28.880 --> 2:12:35.000 with just drinking water. And also you can probably consider 2:12:35.640 --> 2:12:39.880 if you live somewhere wester than I do, you can 2:12:39.920 --> 2:12:43.520 consider misting systems if you have the money in the infrastructure. 2:12:44.120 --> 2:12:49.320 And misting systems is basically just like it pumps water 2:12:49.400 --> 2:12:51.720 out into a mist, and the mist cools everything down 2:12:51.800 --> 2:12:56.400 and below about seventy percent humidity, they're fairly effective. Below 2:12:56.440 --> 2:13:00.480 fifty percent of humidity, they're incredibly effective, and so they 2:13:01.120 --> 2:13:03.600 and it's not that you get wet it's that they do. 2:13:03.760 --> 2:13:07.680 It's like it's like the air is sweating, the air is. 2:13:08.160 --> 2:13:10.640 They're like you have in if you go to restaurants 2:13:10.640 --> 2:13:12.480 in Phoenix outside they have them. 2:13:12.720 --> 2:13:12.960 Yeah. 2:13:13.560 --> 2:13:18.200 I bought some really cheap off like Craigslist, like super cheap. 2:13:18.200 --> 2:13:19.560 Like I think, I actually I just have to go 2:13:19.640 --> 2:13:20.160 and get them. 2:13:20.960 --> 2:13:25.200 Yeah, but no, I'm like so jealous because it wouldn't 2:13:25.200 --> 2:13:25.800 work where I live. 2:13:26.040 --> 2:13:27.600 You can't use them because of a high humidity. 2:13:27.760 --> 2:13:30.800 I mean they do a little bit here, but not 2:13:31.200 --> 2:13:31.960 very effectively. 2:13:33.040 --> 2:13:35.120 Yeah, I know your chickens don't want to be living 2:13:35.120 --> 2:13:36.880 in a too damp environment. It could be that that 2:13:36.920 --> 2:13:42.760 a lungs, so don't be running one inside all the time. Yeah, 2:13:42.840 --> 2:13:45.840 and the inside. But I think it's certainly like my 2:13:45.960 --> 2:13:48.520 chickens will go around it when it's hot. It seems 2:13:48.560 --> 2:13:48.720 to it. 2:13:48.840 --> 2:13:50.280 And one person I talked to and this is like 2:13:50.320 --> 2:13:52.680 I did a bunch of research about this, but it's inconclusive. 2:13:53.640 --> 2:13:56.600 One person I talked to during the wildfire smoke actually 2:13:56.600 --> 2:13:59.600 set up a particulate set up a misting system because 2:13:59.680 --> 2:14:03.000 mist picks up and drops particulate matter to the cloud. 2:14:03.880 --> 2:14:08.560 There's a lot of research that says this particulate absorption happens. 2:14:08.800 --> 2:14:11.400 There is no research to say this is how you 2:14:11.440 --> 2:14:16.840 handle wildfire smoke with outside animals, but that is something 2:14:16.880 --> 2:14:18.680 that at least one person I heard from is doing, 2:14:18.760 --> 2:14:23.720 and science backs it up for human animals in terms 2:14:23.760 --> 2:14:25.800 of preparedness. Just to run through all this stuff that 2:14:25.840 --> 2:14:28.600 I've been keeping track of the way that you're going 2:14:28.640 --> 2:14:30.360 to deal with all this if you're not outside, right, 2:14:30.360 --> 2:14:32.040 if you're outside and you're dealing with the stuff, you're 2:14:32.040 --> 2:14:34.240 going to use what James talked about and like keep 2:14:34.280 --> 2:14:36.720 track of how you're feeling and get into the AC. 2:14:36.840 --> 2:14:37.920 I mean, the main thing you want to do is 2:14:37.920 --> 2:14:40.240 get into AC right. You don't want to do strenuous exercise. 2:14:41.160 --> 2:14:43.160 You want to check alerts on your phone or your 2:14:43.160 --> 2:14:45.000 weather radio. If you're a cool prepper and have like 2:14:45.360 --> 2:14:48.800 a little weather radio, you probably want to use the 2:14:48.840 --> 2:14:51.800 buddy system outside if it's getting really hot, if you can, right, 2:14:52.120 --> 2:14:54.280 just like having someone who can keep track of what 2:14:55.040 --> 2:14:57.520 you're doing. If you don't have another way to get 2:14:57.520 --> 2:15:01.480 to AC, consider public libraries in other places. This is 2:15:01.520 --> 2:15:05.440 a very good active time. Look after your neighbors, and 2:15:05.480 --> 2:15:08.040 some of your neighbors are housed and might not have AC. 2:15:08.400 --> 2:15:11.280 Some of your neighbors don't have houses and probably don't 2:15:11.280 --> 2:15:13.040 have AC unless they live in their vehicles, in which 2:15:13.080 --> 2:15:15.880 case they might have some AC, but not all vehicles do. 2:15:17.440 --> 2:15:19.240 And so there's a very good time to look after people, 2:15:19.240 --> 2:15:22.760 whether it's giving people rides to public cooling centers, or 2:15:22.800 --> 2:15:25.240 whether it's setting up public cooling centers, or they're just 2:15:25.320 --> 2:15:27.680 letting your neighbor who like come over because your AC 2:15:27.800 --> 2:15:33.240 is working and theres isn't you want to I mean, 2:15:33.320 --> 2:15:35.400 one thing that you want to do is to accept 2:15:35.440 --> 2:15:37.240 that what we're dealing with isn't normal. And I'll get 2:15:37.240 --> 2:15:39.960 to that in a moment. But so if you're a renter, 2:15:40.200 --> 2:15:43.800 you have fewer options, right in terms of like structural preparedness, 2:15:44.040 --> 2:15:46.360 there are some things that you can do. Running fans, 2:15:46.480 --> 2:15:49.120 unless you're a podcaster, running fans is a very good idea. 2:15:50.400 --> 2:15:52.240 If you have ceiling fans, you want to make sure 2:15:52.240 --> 2:15:55.360 that during the summer they run counterclockwise and during the 2:15:55.400 --> 2:16:00.880 winter they run clockwise. So it's just look and be 2:16:00.960 --> 2:16:03.000 like I wanted to push air down, and you can 2:16:03.080 --> 2:16:05.560 visualize the direction it'll turn to push air down, and 2:16:05.600 --> 2:16:10.320 that's the summer one I want change the direction they spin. Yes, 2:16:10.400 --> 2:16:12.960 there is a little switch on every ceiling fan. I 2:16:12.960 --> 2:16:14.120 can see the one behind you. 2:16:14.560 --> 2:16:15.880 I can see it. 2:16:16.760 --> 2:16:18.920 Don't do it well if you look on screen. 2:16:19.920 --> 2:16:24.320 No, don't be a coward. Garrison, walk me through it. 2:16:25.160 --> 2:16:27.280 Okay, I think I see it now. 2:16:27.360 --> 2:16:31.240 Yeah, but closer off and want me to put my 2:16:31.360 --> 2:16:32.760 arm up and then do it. 2:16:32.760 --> 2:16:34.440 It's less because you're going to stick your head in 2:16:34.480 --> 2:16:40.120 there so you can get a good look at Oh ah, no, 2:16:40.200 --> 2:16:41.200 Garrisons deceased. 2:16:41.640 --> 2:16:45.080 Oh well, good thing they left me their Gester costume. 2:16:45.560 --> 2:16:47.400 You'll never find out any more about cops. 2:16:48.920 --> 2:16:50.880 I'm city has to end because there's no other way 2:16:50.879 --> 2:16:52.240 for us to find out about it. 2:16:55.440 --> 2:16:56.320 They finally stopped. 2:16:56.320 --> 2:16:59.000 All right, So other things that you can do. Evaporative 2:16:59.000 --> 2:17:00.920 cooling is the coolest thing. 2:17:00.920 --> 2:17:01.320 In the world. 2:17:01.400 --> 2:17:03.080 Again, if you're not in a human area. This is 2:17:03.080 --> 2:17:05.640 why humidity is absolutely terrible. And I picked the wrong 2:17:05.920 --> 2:17:10.320 part of the country to be from wet bandanas, wet clothing. 2:17:10.680 --> 2:17:13.040 There's actually like, it's kind of sad. I was saying 2:17:13.040 --> 2:17:16.279 that there's no labor protections about heat. Some farm workers 2:17:16.840 --> 2:17:21.320 like developed a like an immigrant farm worker developed a 2:17:21.440 --> 2:17:24.280 cooling vest system that she's like working on that. There's 2:17:24.320 --> 2:17:27.199 like articles about where it just uses a vaporative cooling 2:17:27.200 --> 2:17:28.840 to cool people. And it's like one of those things 2:17:28.879 --> 2:17:31.400 where I'm like that rules. And also it's absolutely awful 2:17:31.440 --> 2:17:34.480 that that's like where we're at. Where we're at, you know, 2:17:34.640 --> 2:17:37.600 is not like, oh, let's have better labor practices and stuff. 2:17:39.760 --> 2:17:43.039 And if you have a house, if you have like 2:17:43.080 --> 2:17:49.080 a place that you can really do preparedness for, there's 2:17:49.760 --> 2:17:52.960 I mean, we'll just get an air conditioner. Don't run 2:17:53.000 --> 2:17:55.200 your air conditioner as like low as it'll go. It 2:17:55.320 --> 2:17:58.240 just doesn't actually make things any cooler. Air conditioners are 2:17:58.280 --> 2:18:01.440 generally designed and only cool things. I want to say, 2:18:01.520 --> 2:18:05.760 was it like thirty degrees below outside temperature or something? Yeah? 2:18:06.600 --> 2:18:10.039 And I think also depends on the size of the 2:18:10.080 --> 2:18:12.040 relative space you're cooling in a BTUC. 2:18:12.520 --> 2:18:15.080 Well, so I'm saying that they're sized for that by 2:18:15.240 --> 2:18:17.520 like regulation. If someone comes in it is like, oh, 2:18:17.560 --> 2:18:20.120 what size AC should I put into this house, it's 2:18:20.160 --> 2:18:22.840 going to be I want this size house to be 2:18:23.080 --> 2:18:25.200 be cooled thirty degrees. I think it's thirty degrees. It 2:18:25.240 --> 2:18:28.400 might be twenty four, okay, And so if you run 2:18:28.440 --> 2:18:31.640 your fans. You actually can keep your thermostat up about 2:18:31.640 --> 2:18:36.320 four degrees and if you don't have it, If you 2:18:36.320 --> 2:18:37.600 don't have AC, there's a lot you can do with 2:18:37.680 --> 2:18:39.800 like thermal mass right is your friend, Like if you 2:18:39.800 --> 2:18:41.640 have a if you can choose which house you're going 2:18:41.680 --> 2:18:43.400 to live in, living in brick houses is great or 2:18:43.400 --> 2:18:45.720 adobe houses. It depends on where you live and what 2:18:45.760 --> 2:18:49.160 your climate is. You want to keep your curtains closed 2:18:49.240 --> 2:18:51.200 during the day and open at night if you're trying 2:18:51.240 --> 2:18:53.120 to keep out the sun, but then let out the 2:18:53.160 --> 2:18:56.280 heat into the cool night air, assuming that there's still 2:18:56.280 --> 2:18:58.400 cool night air. Depends on where you live. As we 2:18:58.520 --> 2:19:03.960 enter into this nightmare world, Reflective window insulation y things 2:19:04.000 --> 2:19:06.080 like the thing that you put in your windshield can help. 2:19:06.240 --> 2:19:09.039 There's like stuff you can do when you accept that 2:19:09.080 --> 2:19:14.360 it's an emergency and you can okay. But then the 2:19:14.360 --> 2:19:16.680 other thing is that running AC's puts a lot of 2:19:16.720 --> 2:19:19.039 strain on the power grid, and we're already starting to 2:19:19.040 --> 2:19:21.879 see more grid failure, usually in the brown out style 2:19:21.959 --> 2:19:26.080 rather than the blackout style. But when everyone's running their AC, 2:19:27.800 --> 2:19:30.320 the grid is not designed to handle it, and there 2:19:30.320 --> 2:19:34.960 are problems, and so one you get these like city 2:19:34.959 --> 2:19:39.040 wide text alerts that are like, hey, everyone, please turn 2:19:39.120 --> 2:19:41.400 up your AC like turned down whatever, make your AC 2:19:41.600 --> 2:19:46.320 less cold cold. And this is an example of something 2:19:46.360 --> 2:19:49.119 that we should do and listen to. But it's really 2:19:49.200 --> 2:19:51.240 fucking annoying because it's not our fucking fault that the 2:19:51.240 --> 2:19:53.880 world is heating up, right, And they're not like turning 2:19:53.920 --> 2:19:56.560 off Times Square. They're telling everyone, you know, they're not 2:19:56.600 --> 2:20:00.320 turning off the ads. Yeah, speaking of ads, it's a 2:20:00.320 --> 2:20:03.640 good time to pivot to some some more stuff. Even 2:20:03.760 --> 2:20:06.519 it is waste, wasting power, and even in the emergency, 2:20:06.800 --> 2:20:10.400 there's still the ads. Here you go and we're back. 2:20:12.600 --> 2:20:16.720 Hopefully. It was for gold, which is useless in the heat. 2:20:16.720 --> 2:20:19.879 Death of the nurse. I just want to throw that 2:20:19.920 --> 2:20:20.320 out there. 2:20:21.720 --> 2:20:24.920 Yeah, but it does keep its value compared to. 2:20:24.879 --> 2:20:26.240 Cash, just. 2:20:28.120 --> 2:20:30.040 Until neither of them have that. 2:20:30.040 --> 2:20:33.040 That's why whiskey Oh wait, no wait, mutual aid. 2:20:33.720 --> 2:20:36.600 Now, that's why I've been stacking on my on my 2:20:36.840 --> 2:20:39.879 series of John's Version inspired n f T s that 2:20:39.920 --> 2:20:43.840 I minted last year, and oh boy, have they only 2:20:43.879 --> 2:20:44.640 grown in value? 2:20:44.680 --> 2:20:44.920 Am I? 2:20:45.160 --> 2:20:46.840 I'm telling you this is that this is what's going 2:20:46.920 --> 2:20:50.920 to hold me through whenever, whenever, you know, the thing happens. 2:20:52.120 --> 2:20:54.680 Yep, I will be at your door with my wanting 2:20:54.720 --> 2:21:02.440 to try ammunition for apes as I always am. Find 2:21:02.440 --> 2:21:03.200 me in the group yet. 2:21:04.120 --> 2:21:07.360 But there's one other group of people that I want 2:21:07.400 --> 2:21:09.600 to talk about really quickly about who we should check 2:21:09.600 --> 2:21:13.280 in on, and that is prisoners. There is no way 2:21:13.360 --> 2:21:14.760 from my point of view, I'm gonna have a lot 2:21:14.760 --> 2:21:16.840 of bias here. There is no way for us to 2:21:17.160 --> 2:21:20.640 justly face a climate emergency while we live in a 2:21:20.720 --> 2:21:25.120 carcoral society in Texas. This is where most of the 2:21:25.160 --> 2:21:27.199 news is right now. But that's not like it's better 2:21:27.320 --> 2:21:29.800 other places. As far as I can tell, in Texas, 2:21:29.879 --> 2:21:33.280 since mid June, between nine and twenty three prisoners have 2:21:33.360 --> 2:21:38.320 died from heat, but no one knows because Texas refuses 2:21:38.360 --> 2:21:40.560 to say that anyone has died from heat. They haven't 2:21:40.560 --> 2:21:43.640 done that since I believe twenty twelve is the last 2:21:43.640 --> 2:21:46.960 time they admitted someone died from heat. However, two thirds 2:21:47.000 --> 2:21:50.560 of Texas prisons don't have air conditioning, and a bunch 2:21:50.560 --> 2:21:53.600 of people are dying randomly of heart attacks in their 2:21:53.640 --> 2:21:56.160 thirties because they're dying of heat. 2:21:56.440 --> 2:21:57.199 Jesus correct. 2:21:57.640 --> 2:22:01.600 I think earlier in the first few weeks of July 2:22:01.680 --> 2:22:03.600 when it was getting very, very hot. 2:22:04.200 --> 2:22:05.039 I believe it. 2:22:05.040 --> 2:22:06.960 It was a pretty young woman died in the Fulton 2:22:07.000 --> 2:22:10.800 County jail here in Atlanta. Yeah sure, and it's they're 2:22:10.800 --> 2:22:12.959 doing an investigation to see why. 2:22:13.240 --> 2:22:15.119 So yeah, oh. 2:22:14.959 --> 2:22:20.039 Good, don't worry. The Texas State House passed money to 2:22:20.040 --> 2:22:23.480 put AC into prisons, and then the Senate rejected it. 2:22:23.680 --> 2:22:27.199 Cool, big thing is for money, because not much money 2:22:27.200 --> 2:22:29.440 in law enforcement, so I can see how they're struggling 2:22:29.520 --> 2:22:30.080 to afford that. 2:22:30.120 --> 2:22:32.400 Otherwise, Yeah, there was a oh I didn't write down 2:22:32.400 --> 2:22:36.760 the numbers in my script, but there was like a 2:22:36.800 --> 2:22:41.960 many millions of dollar budget surplus that they didn't apply to. Oh, 2:22:42.000 --> 2:22:46.720 I don't know. Not having people die for having been 2:22:46.760 --> 2:22:49.200 accused of owning weed. 2:22:51.000 --> 2:22:52.120 Yeah, I don't know. 2:22:52.120 --> 2:22:52.360 Whatever. 2:22:52.400 --> 2:22:54.200 I get really fucking mad about this, and I think 2:22:54.200 --> 2:22:54.760 that it is. 2:22:54.680 --> 2:22:56.720 Like it's fucking horrific. 2:22:57.280 --> 2:22:57.560 Okay. 2:22:57.560 --> 2:23:00.920 And then the last thing I really want to say 2:23:01.840 --> 2:23:06.120 is that this was the hottest month, right that any 2:23:06.160 --> 2:23:10.240 of us have ever experienced. It will be the coolest 2:23:10.280 --> 2:23:14.360 month in our memory at some point, you know, or 2:23:14.440 --> 2:23:16.800 rather whatever, it's not getting. 2:23:16.560 --> 2:23:19.240 Coolest July our in our memory at some point. 2:23:19.360 --> 2:23:22.240 Yeah, yeah, like next year might be a little bit 2:23:22.240 --> 2:23:24.360 cooler because of natural cycles or whatever, right, but it's 2:23:24.400 --> 2:23:27.840 not coming back. We're not going back to normal. And 2:23:27.959 --> 2:23:34.560 for me, this month marks a sea change literally and 2:23:34.600 --> 2:23:37.480 that the Arctic Antarctic ice did not come back this winter. 2:23:37.520 --> 2:23:40.840 It's winter right now in Antarctica, and there's a five 2:23:41.120 --> 2:23:44.160 or six standard deviation away from normal amount of ice 2:23:44.640 --> 2:23:48.720 there right now. Five to six standard deviations is more 2:23:48.800 --> 2:23:51.200 than if you flipped a coin one hundred times and 2:23:51.200 --> 2:23:52.879 it came up heads every single time. It is like 2:23:53.000 --> 2:23:55.920 more than a one in three point five million chance. 2:23:56.320 --> 2:23:56.560 Right. 2:23:56.640 --> 2:23:58.920 It is a very big number. It is a very 2:23:59.040 --> 2:24:02.600 abnormal thing. Nothing like this has ever been seen before. 2:24:02.959 --> 2:24:05.879 And I don't want to say this to make people afraid, 2:24:05.959 --> 2:24:08.480 because I don't think we need to be. For whatever. 2:24:08.720 --> 2:24:12.039 Fear is complicated. You can't be brave unless you're afraid. 2:24:12.080 --> 2:24:15.280 That's what I will say. You cannot have courage. Courage 2:24:15.320 --> 2:24:19.040 is the act of responding to fear, and we should 2:24:19.840 --> 2:24:23.880 notice the fear and not let it control us. But 2:24:23.920 --> 2:24:28.920 it really is time for people to very seriously look 2:24:29.640 --> 2:24:33.160 at not what's going to happen by twenty fifty, but 2:24:33.240 --> 2:24:36.400 what is happening now, what is happening now, what will 2:24:36.400 --> 2:24:38.800 happen in the next three years, the next five years, 2:24:38.800 --> 2:24:44.000 the next ten years, and start making decisions based on that. 2:24:44.000 --> 2:24:45.480 That is what I want. I don't want to tell 2:24:45.480 --> 2:24:47.760 people what those decisions are. I want people to get 2:24:47.760 --> 2:24:50.200 together with the people that they care about and figure 2:24:50.240 --> 2:24:52.480 out what those decisions are. One of the things that 2:24:52.520 --> 2:24:57.920 I would recommend is building resilient communities is looking at 2:24:57.920 --> 2:25:00.320 how to build communities right. And there's a lot of ways. 2:25:00.320 --> 2:25:02.480 A lot of like scenes can become communities, a lot 2:25:02.480 --> 2:25:05.160 of extended families can become communities. A lot of religious 2:25:05.200 --> 2:25:10.760 organizations are communities. Okay, how and then how to make 2:25:10.800 --> 2:25:15.920 them resilient? How to collectively look at how to handle 2:25:15.959 --> 2:25:20.240 these things. Whether it's literally just having a plan for like, Okay, 2:25:20.240 --> 2:25:23.080 if the power goes out, who has the whole house 2:25:23.160 --> 2:25:26.200 generator where I live? Someone around being has god to 2:25:26.200 --> 2:25:28.440 have a whole house generator. I don't have one. I 2:25:28.480 --> 2:25:31.240 want one, but they're expensive. Whose ac is still going 2:25:31.320 --> 2:25:32.720 to be running when the power goes out? 2:25:32.879 --> 2:25:33.080 Right? 2:25:34.520 --> 2:25:40.720 Or whether it's like, hey, how can we collectively help 2:25:40.760 --> 2:25:43.720 each other's houses have rain water catchment systems? 2:25:44.160 --> 2:25:44.360 Right? 2:25:44.800 --> 2:25:50.160 How can we collectively be building up food sovereignty as 2:25:50.160 --> 2:25:54.080 well as food storage. How can we have I want 2:25:54.080 --> 2:25:57.600 to see personally, I want to see days of workshops 2:25:57.600 --> 2:26:02.480 at community centers of all different ideals, compositions getting together 2:26:02.520 --> 2:26:04.760 and being like, here's how you can food, here's how 2:26:04.760 --> 2:26:08.840 you dry food, here is how you set up mesh networks. 2:26:09.400 --> 2:26:09.760 I just. 2:26:11.480 --> 2:26:16.480 I think it's time. I think that I'm tired of saying, hey, 2:26:16.600 --> 2:26:20.199 bad stuff might be coming, because it's not might be coming. 2:26:20.240 --> 2:26:24.400 Now it's here and it's really bad. And I think 2:26:24.440 --> 2:26:26.640 people stick to the might be coming because they're afraid 2:26:26.680 --> 2:26:31.600 of despair. And I will say that despair is not good, right, 2:26:33.120 --> 2:26:37.120 but that is something that we can fight. How do 2:26:37.160 --> 2:26:40.240 we fight despair is also part of this? And the 2:26:40.320 --> 2:26:43.040 answer to that is agency, and when we can find 2:26:43.080 --> 2:26:45.960 ways to act with agency, that is I mean, there's 2:26:46.000 --> 2:26:48.560 like studies about like in disasters, people who express agency 2:26:48.600 --> 2:26:51.920 have like less PTSD right when bad things happen, Yeah, 2:26:52.360 --> 2:26:54.440 and even if the agency, like I mean, I remember 2:26:54.480 --> 2:26:56.240 all at one point getting arrested, right and being like, 2:26:56.240 --> 2:26:58.640 all right, well, I'm keeping track of like I know 2:26:58.720 --> 2:27:00.959 that cops badge number, I know this, I know this, 2:27:01.120 --> 2:27:04.400 I'm keeping track of stuff in case there's a lawsuit later. 2:27:04.440 --> 2:27:08.680 I totally lost that lawsuit, but like that helped me 2:27:08.760 --> 2:27:10.160 get through that situation. 2:27:10.680 --> 2:27:10.840 Right. 2:27:11.360 --> 2:27:13.240 Everyone else won the lawsuit, but because I was in 2:27:13.280 --> 2:27:17.480 black block, I did not win the lawsuits. That's funny, 2:27:17.680 --> 2:27:20.880 that's funny. Yeah, anyway, Actually it might have been because 2:27:20.879 --> 2:27:23.960 I refused to give my name anyway, whatever, it was 2:27:24.000 --> 2:27:24.680 a long time ago. 2:27:25.080 --> 2:27:26.039 And fill this. 2:27:27.520 --> 2:27:32.240 And just so yeah, act with agency. That is the solution. 2:27:32.360 --> 2:27:35.560 The solution it is. It's like, like, it's not the 2:27:35.560 --> 2:27:37.080 solution to the spar it's a way to deal with 2:27:37.120 --> 2:27:38.560 it in the same way that we're not looking at 2:27:38.600 --> 2:27:41.160 solutions to climate change anymore. We're looking at ways to 2:27:41.200 --> 2:27:42.840 deal with it, right because it's already here. 2:27:43.200 --> 2:27:43.440 Yeah. 2:27:43.680 --> 2:27:47.360 Yeah, some of the episodes that me and Robert research 2:27:47.440 --> 2:27:49.560 to put together for the original, like could happen your 2:27:49.640 --> 2:27:50.160 Season two. 2:27:50.080 --> 2:27:51.200 Stuff is yeah a lot. 2:27:51.240 --> 2:27:56.040 I was talking about like a mitigation versus adaptation, And 2:27:56.560 --> 2:27:59.000 almost every day it looks like we're getting more and 2:27:59.040 --> 2:28:02.600 more committed to just full a full adaption model because 2:28:02.720 --> 2:28:05.480 these things are really not going to be like the 2:28:05.520 --> 2:28:08.320 most common widespread effects is not going to be mitigated. 2:28:09.200 --> 2:28:13.440 There's still a few like cataclysmic scenarios that that probably 2:28:13.480 --> 2:28:15.840 could be averted, but things are going to get so much, 2:28:15.879 --> 2:28:19.280 so much worse, and that will be to deal with that, 2:28:19.959 --> 2:28:23.879 we will have to adopt a large variety of adaptions 2:28:24.520 --> 2:28:30.480 and it's gonna suck, but it's it's what we're gonna 2:28:30.480 --> 2:28:33.520 have to do. I don't know, I've there's there's a 2:28:33.600 --> 2:28:35.600 variety of reactions to this. I mean, I think I 2:28:35.600 --> 2:28:37.520 should just put together an episode on this sometime in 2:28:37.560 --> 2:28:42.880 the future. But like there's as this as the intensity 2:28:43.120 --> 2:28:48.400 of the situations more and more, like, as as it 2:28:48.400 --> 2:28:50.400 becomes more and more clear, we're going to get a 2:28:50.480 --> 2:28:52.879 variety of reactions from especially for people on the right 2:28:52.879 --> 2:28:57.519 who used to be very much pure purely like ignoring 2:28:57.680 --> 2:29:01.520 or denying this problem. Some some on the right have 2:29:01.640 --> 2:29:04.120 like have skipped over the whole part where they've been 2:29:04.160 --> 2:29:06.440 wrong for so many years and are going to start 2:29:06.480 --> 2:29:10.800 up applying extremely authoritarian and like nationalist solutions to this. 2:29:12.080 --> 2:29:15.640 Others are just doubling down on denial because facing the 2:29:15.680 --> 2:29:19.160 facts of the horrible situation we're in is more and 2:29:19.240 --> 2:29:22.000 more like frightening. It's it's it's harder to admit that 2:29:22.040 --> 2:29:27.800 you're wrong and realize the terribleness of the situation of 2:29:27.959 --> 2:29:31.000 the most recent example of this is I've been checking 2:29:31.000 --> 2:29:34.520 on the replies to to CTV News, which is one 2:29:34.560 --> 2:29:38.400 of the biggest Canadian like television news stations. They've they've 2:29:38.400 --> 2:29:41.480 put out a few stories about how July is the 2:29:41.480 --> 2:29:45.680 hottest month, and the in the replies to this story, 2:29:45.720 --> 2:29:50.400 it's there's just a shock and honestly shocking amount of 2:29:50.400 --> 2:29:55.280 of pure like flippant denial of what's going on. And 2:29:55.280 --> 2:29:58.959 this has been an increasing problem in Canada. And it's 2:29:59.120 --> 2:30:02.520 it's which is ironic because actually Canada's economy is probably 2:30:02.520 --> 2:30:05.280 going to grow during climate change because they're going to 2:30:05.360 --> 2:30:08.640 take over a whole bunch of agricultural production from the States. 2:30:09.280 --> 2:30:11.920 They're actually going to become a much bigger economic player. 2:30:12.280 --> 2:30:15.640 But the amount of just pure denial that that that 2:30:15.680 --> 2:30:18.440 we're that we're seeing in Canada and we're seeing get 2:30:18.480 --> 2:30:23.320 like increased is extremely worrying. Yeah, and it's one of 2:30:23.360 --> 2:30:25.080 those things that's really hard to deal with. Like it 2:30:25.360 --> 2:30:27.280 it's also something I talked about it in my hyper 2:30:27.280 --> 2:30:30.280 object episode. But like it's like it's the same thing 2:30:30.280 --> 2:30:32.920 if someone's like in QAnon, you can't like you can't 2:30:33.000 --> 2:30:35.400 like out logic them from qan on. You have to 2:30:35.480 --> 2:30:37.120 you have to, you have to tell a better story. 2:30:38.560 --> 2:30:40.840 So this is you need a solid place to stand, 2:30:41.080 --> 2:30:43.040 like before you can push someone, if you see what 2:30:43.080 --> 2:30:43.360 I mean. 2:30:43.640 --> 2:30:46.039 Yeah, but like I don't know's it's just been it's 2:30:46.080 --> 2:30:47.840 been concerning because I've been seeing a whole bunch of 2:30:47.879 --> 2:30:49.360 a whole bunch of these things about how this is the 2:30:49.400 --> 2:30:53.920 hottest month in one hundred and twenty thousand years. And yeah, 2:30:53.959 --> 2:30:57.119 that is an a that is a like a horrifying 2:30:57.440 --> 2:31:00.160 thing to learn and you can like look at know 2:31:00.240 --> 2:31:03.400 what what the sources for this are. But the fact 2:31:03.480 --> 2:31:07.520 that so many of us are just just denying this 2:31:07.680 --> 2:31:10.720 is that like as you like you can go outside 2:31:10.760 --> 2:31:12.720 and feel it as well, like it's like it's and 2:31:12.959 --> 2:31:15.000 that's not how climate works all the time. But like 2:31:15.760 --> 2:31:18.920 I've certainly I think many of us have have felt 2:31:19.080 --> 2:31:22.840 the effects of this. And also like the death numbers 2:31:22.879 --> 2:31:26.240 can't lie either. Yeah. 2:31:26.360 --> 2:31:29.280 Yeah, And like I just got back from a trip 2:31:29.320 --> 2:31:31.920 which will be a podcast soon to the Marshall Islands, 2:31:31.959 --> 2:31:36.400 where it is extremely evident that sea levels are rising 2:31:36.440 --> 2:31:39.119 and if they continue to rise they're rising, then these 2:31:39.120 --> 2:31:41.920 places will be uninhabitable within the lifetime, so people who 2:31:41.920 --> 2:31:47.160 are alive today, And it's it's very odd to or 2:31:47.240 --> 2:31:49.720 very sort of discordant to see that. And then you 2:31:49.879 --> 2:31:52.720 log on when you get home and see someone being like, oh, 2:31:52.760 --> 2:31:55.400 it's natural variation, or you know, like oh, it's snowed 2:31:55.480 --> 2:31:59.280 last winter, or you know some something which shows like 2:31:59.320 --> 2:32:03.080 a name incomplete understanding, but still like just a knee 2:32:03.160 --> 2:32:08.760 jerk rejection of of like all the evidence we have 2:32:08.840 --> 2:32:12.640 that the climate is changing and it's it's not coming back. 2:32:13.040 --> 2:32:16.280 But I find myself the same that I have that 2:32:16.400 --> 2:32:21.879 same feelings sometimes when I see people refuse to engage 2:32:21.879 --> 2:32:24.600 with solutions, even with people who just are like, sure, 2:32:25.000 --> 2:32:29.040 oh that's real. There's nothing we can do about it, 2:32:29.600 --> 2:32:33.360 so we're not gonna try. Like feels very like and 2:32:33.440 --> 2:32:36.160 I don't mean like, I don't even mean a specific 2:32:36.200 --> 2:32:38.120 way of trying. I don't mean everyone has to go 2:32:38.240 --> 2:32:41.640 get arrested gluing themselves to famous things, or everyone needs 2:32:41.640 --> 2:32:45.640 to go set things on fire, everyone needs to only 2:32:45.680 --> 2:32:48.760 focus on growing food or like. But just when I 2:32:48.800 --> 2:32:53.800 see people like just being like, well, there's nothing, so 2:32:53.920 --> 2:32:58.240 I'm just gonna not take it into account in my 2:32:58.320 --> 2:33:00.560 decision making. I'm like, even if you're just vision making this, 2:33:00.720 --> 2:33:02.600 like like I made the decision to move near my 2:33:02.640 --> 2:33:05.680 family because a climate change. I didn't move to where 2:33:05.720 --> 2:33:07.840 the climate is going to be magically stable. I move 2:33:07.920 --> 2:33:12.840 to where I can spend more time with people I 2:33:12.879 --> 2:33:14.440 love and be in a better position to take care 2:33:14.480 --> 2:33:17.400 of them, you know, Like I just I feel so 2:33:17.520 --> 2:33:21.120 like I don't know, it was whatever. 2:33:21.800 --> 2:33:27.160 Yeah, yeah, no it is. And it's very difficult to 2:33:27.160 --> 2:33:31.000 see people just sort of fiddle as a Titanic scene, 2:33:31.000 --> 2:33:31.280 I mean. 2:33:31.200 --> 2:33:34.720 Really shutting down is the is one of the easiest 2:33:34.760 --> 2:33:38.560 reactions to stress and ignoring both both the both like 2:33:38.879 --> 2:33:42.040 the like the like the v admitt like denial of this. 2:33:42.280 --> 2:33:44.360 As things are obviously getting more and more intense, the 2:33:44.800 --> 2:33:46.880 denial gets more and more intense. But so is like 2:33:47.320 --> 2:33:49.760 the types of like the type of dumerism that leads 2:33:49.760 --> 2:33:51.520 you just to like checking out of being like, oh 2:33:51.520 --> 2:33:53.120 this is so bad, just there's nothing I can do, 2:33:53.560 --> 2:33:56.720 so I'm just going to completely ignore this. And then 2:33:56.800 --> 2:33:59.600 that's that's also another way of just like sectioning off 2:33:59.600 --> 2:34:02.160 this party your brain so it doesn't actually impact you. 2:34:02.600 --> 2:34:06.000 It's it's functionally quite the same. And I can't blame 2:34:06.040 --> 2:34:08.160 people for it. And that's what I think. People often 2:34:08.200 --> 2:34:09.920 think that I am judging for them for that, and 2:34:09.959 --> 2:34:13.080 I'm not. I just feel like i'm it's just it's 2:34:13.120 --> 2:34:14.800 hard to engage with sometimes. 2:34:15.280 --> 2:34:18.120 Yeah, But I think a good point to end is like, 2:34:18.920 --> 2:34:21.320 maybe the best prep you can do for climate change 2:34:21.360 --> 2:34:27.600 is not like buying a bigger air conditioner or moving 2:34:27.760 --> 2:34:30.320 to somewhere where you think there is a better chance 2:34:30.480 --> 2:34:32.800 that you personally as an individual will be better, but 2:34:32.879 --> 2:34:35.360 it's building a community that can be resilient and that 2:34:35.520 --> 2:34:39.959 can like weather the storm. And like having seen a 2:34:40.040 --> 2:34:44.080 country which is losing its very minimal amount of land 2:34:44.080 --> 2:34:46.800 to climate change and how communities have come together to 2:34:46.959 --> 2:34:50.879 protect each other during that, it's kind of reinforced to 2:34:50.920 --> 2:34:54.760 me how important community is as opposed to stuff. 2:34:55.000 --> 2:34:55.600 Yeah. 2:34:55.640 --> 2:35:00.000 Absolutely, Also with communities you can get more stuff. 2:35:02.280 --> 2:35:03.360 You can make your own stuf. 2:35:03.360 --> 2:35:06.080 That's true, seize the means of production. But not for 2:35:06.280 --> 2:35:09.400 the pure Marxist point of view, but from the I 2:35:09.520 --> 2:35:11.360 like joking, but I'm actually like, this is what people 2:35:11.360 --> 2:35:16.320 should be preparing to do. Like, yeah, a climate revolution 2:35:16.400 --> 2:35:18.200 that's less about like, oh, we're going to put in 2:35:18.680 --> 2:35:20.840 someone smart in charge's going to fix everything and more 2:35:20.840 --> 2:35:24.560 a climate revolution that's like we're going to create bottom 2:35:24.600 --> 2:35:28.440 up solutions and not let people stop us from creating 2:35:28.440 --> 2:35:30.480 bottom up solutions. 2:35:31.400 --> 2:35:33.960 Yes, that would be good. It would be a good revolution. 2:35:34.040 --> 2:35:36.039 Consider implementing that. 2:35:52.280 --> 2:35:57.039 It's it could happen here the podcast where things happen 2:35:57.120 --> 2:36:00.840 and sometimes things maybe don't happen. And once again the 2:36:00.879 --> 2:36:05.520 thing maybe not happening is the strike at UPS. Yeah, 2:36:05.520 --> 2:36:09.879 so stuff has happened since we lash recorded. And also 2:36:10.840 --> 2:36:12.240 there was the thing that happened to the middle of 2:36:12.280 --> 2:36:15.000 the recording, which was the announcement of the tentative agreement, 2:36:15.440 --> 2:36:18.199 and so to talk more about what's been happening since 2:36:18.440 --> 2:36:20.640 and what's sort of in this deal because we now 2:36:20.680 --> 2:36:23.800 know more details about it is once again Rehee Smith 2:36:23.840 --> 2:36:26.880 and Oliver Rose, who are too rank and file UPS 2:36:26.920 --> 2:36:30.160 teamsters and once again they do not represent the union, 2:36:30.200 --> 2:36:33.760 are speaking as individuals, et cetera, et cetera. Yeah, but 2:36:33.959 --> 2:36:34.600 welcome back. 2:36:35.640 --> 2:36:36.800 Yeah, I'm good to be back. 2:36:37.240 --> 2:36:38.600 Yeah, thanks for having us on again. 2:36:39.400 --> 2:36:41.120 Yeah, I'm glad, I'm happy to talk to you. So 2:36:42.080 --> 2:36:45.320 all right, so last last time, we found out in 2:36:45.360 --> 2:36:48.640 the middle of recording that there is a deal struck, 2:36:48.680 --> 2:36:50.600 and I guess I wanted to start by talking a 2:36:50.640 --> 2:36:53.920 bit about what's been happening since then and what the 2:36:54.000 --> 2:36:55.960 sort of what sort of organizing has been happening, what 2:36:56.480 --> 2:36:58.520 the sort of union bureaucracy has been doing. 2:36:59.160 --> 2:37:04.160 Yeah, it's uh, well, it's been kind of kind of crazy. Basically, 2:37:04.200 --> 2:37:06.879 you know, we had that highlight reel that we all got, 2:37:07.640 --> 2:37:10.280 and then it was a bit before we got the 2:37:10.400 --> 2:37:15.280 actual contract, at least like a few days. And since then, 2:37:15.400 --> 2:37:19.080 you know, you're in union bureaucracy has been promoting uh 2:37:19.120 --> 2:37:21.879 these contract Q and A sessions and stuff like that, 2:37:21.920 --> 2:37:24.920 and they had three of them last Sunday and one 2:37:24.959 --> 2:37:31.040 of them this Monday, and voting has opened up. Uh yeah, 2:37:31.120 --> 2:37:35.760 it's it's been a bit been a bit uh crazy feeling, 2:37:35.879 --> 2:37:40.160 to be honest. Uh yeah, yeah, it's been wild. 2:37:41.680 --> 2:37:43.840 Yeah. Of course, you know, while we're recording, you know, 2:37:43.879 --> 2:37:47.320 we get the tenet of agreement, uh drop, and you 2:37:47.320 --> 2:37:50.320 know it's framed us you know, this big historic uh 2:37:50.400 --> 2:37:53.480 you know, this game changer. So and you know, of 2:37:53.480 --> 2:37:56.039 course for the first day, we just had what was 2:37:56.080 --> 2:37:59.680 in the press release. Even some of that language was 2:37:59.720 --> 2:38:02.720 a little little bit confusing. Wasn't until Team Series for 2:38:02.840 --> 2:38:05.800 a Democratic Union also had their own like press release 2:38:06.200 --> 2:38:09.760 clarified some language, and then you know we're kind of 2:38:09.800 --> 2:38:11.840 just like, okay, we'll get you know, we're told we'll 2:38:11.879 --> 2:38:15.520 be getting the kind of agreement language next week and 2:38:15.879 --> 2:38:18.600 chance to you know, debrief with the local but really 2:38:18.640 --> 2:38:21.120 like the the I think it was the following day 2:38:21.680 --> 2:38:24.240 the actual language comes out, you know, and some of 2:38:24.240 --> 2:38:28.000 the things where it's you know, there's like a promise 2:38:28.080 --> 2:38:31.879 with the uh all the general wage increases going on 2:38:31.920 --> 2:38:35.280 top of those market rate adjustments we're speaking about, which 2:38:35.280 --> 2:38:39.920 are basically wages that are that ups can you know 2:38:40.120 --> 2:38:43.520 add or even remove that's not actually tied to the 2:38:43.560 --> 2:38:47.080 contract wages and you know, so one of the things was, yeah, 2:38:47.080 --> 2:38:49.960 getting those raises on top, but there was no contract 2:38:50.080 --> 2:38:53.520 language you know in there, which definitely caused I think 2:38:53.560 --> 2:38:56.840 a lot of confusion concern among rank and file members. 2:38:58.200 --> 2:39:02.080 And it actually took one of the locals, you know, 2:39:02.120 --> 2:39:07.080 having a no endorsement before we even saw this memorandum 2:39:07.120 --> 2:39:11.879 of understanding between the company and the IBT, you know, 2:39:11.959 --> 2:39:15.400 guaranteeing this was going to happen, you know, that we 2:39:15.440 --> 2:39:19.080 would be getting those raises on top. It was just 2:39:19.160 --> 2:39:21.200 kind of one of those things where you know, there 2:39:21.240 --> 2:39:25.959 was this kind of really vague language that was used 2:39:26.000 --> 2:39:29.039 and I think definitely caused you know, people to not 2:39:29.120 --> 2:39:33.080 really fully understand, you know, what was going on. Specially 2:39:33.120 --> 2:39:38.200 I think it was about seventy five percent of part 2:39:38.200 --> 2:39:42.760 timers are currently have a market rate adjustment. You know, 2:39:42.760 --> 2:39:45.000 that's kind of a very big portion of the workforce. 2:39:46.120 --> 2:39:47.840 Yeah, it was a I'm gonna be honest, it was 2:39:47.879 --> 2:39:49.920 a real it was kind of a real calm shit 2:39:50.040 --> 2:39:57.400 show from from union leadership. Releasing the information in the 2:39:57.400 --> 2:40:00.760 way they did it absolutely led to a lot of 2:40:01.120 --> 2:40:05.440 misunderstandings about what was in the contract, which you know, 2:40:05.560 --> 2:40:09.720 kind of spread like wildfire. And the union response to 2:40:09.840 --> 2:40:13.120 what I think is a lot of just genuine misunderstanding 2:40:14.120 --> 2:40:19.480 is to just label it all as misinformation from people 2:40:19.480 --> 2:40:23.240 that have, you know, their their own agendas, right, and 2:40:23.920 --> 2:40:26.760 you can't you can't like trust those people. You can 2:40:26.800 --> 2:40:32.720 only trust what's what's coming from the union. And Yeah, 2:40:32.760 --> 2:40:36.960 that definitely didn't inspire trust from the people that were 2:40:37.360 --> 2:40:41.600 leaning no, because in between a lot of these like 2:40:42.000 --> 2:40:44.440 and there is definitely was some misunderstanding about what was 2:40:44.480 --> 2:40:46.879 initially into the in the contract but there is also 2:40:47.040 --> 2:40:49.800 genuine critique about certain things that are in the contract, right, 2:40:50.680 --> 2:40:55.360 and so instead of like substantly, substantively like looking at 2:40:55.360 --> 2:40:58.440 these genuine critiques, we're all forced in the situation of 2:40:58.480 --> 2:41:03.560 sorting out what is quote unquote misinformation or you know, 2:41:04.360 --> 2:41:08.520 more accurately, people not understanding legalese and also a bad 2:41:08.600 --> 2:41:11.560 role out of information versus okay, but what is in 2:41:11.600 --> 2:41:17.280 the contract that really needs improvement? And instead of like 2:41:17.360 --> 2:41:20.520 substantively getting into the ladder, it's just been a pure 2:41:20.520 --> 2:41:24.480 focus on the former. And yeah, it's it's been it's 2:41:24.520 --> 2:41:28.400 been kind of tense. Uh, it seems like, you know, 2:41:28.680 --> 2:41:31.600 it seems like there's a real mix, it's real kind 2:41:31.600 --> 2:41:35.320 of even even uh, how rank and vile members are 2:41:35.360 --> 2:41:38.160 responding to this contract. You know, some have kind of 2:41:38.800 --> 2:41:41.879 bought in full sale that this is a historic contract, 2:41:43.200 --> 2:41:46.360 and others, you know, you know, such as myself, like, 2:41:47.200 --> 2:41:50.720 you know, there's still things in this contract that to 2:41:50.800 --> 2:41:54.760 me are unacceptable and it's going to be interesting to 2:41:54.840 --> 2:41:56.160 see where it goes. 2:41:57.080 --> 2:41:59.040 Yeah, I mean, you know, I kind of feel like 2:41:59.080 --> 2:42:01.480 it's hard to get a gauge of where everyone's at, 2:42:01.520 --> 2:42:03.640 and of course I only have the you know, kind 2:42:03.640 --> 2:42:09.039 of my local experience in my specific shift, you know, definitely, yeah, 2:42:09.200 --> 2:42:11.320 I haven't I haven't come across you know, someone I 2:42:11.360 --> 2:42:13.680 work with yet, you know who's totally just like, yeah, 2:42:13.680 --> 2:42:16.760 this is superhistoric, this is you know, game changing. 2:42:17.080 --> 2:42:17.440 Uh. 2:42:17.680 --> 2:42:20.440 You know, as they were saying, or the Union was saying, 2:42:21.800 --> 2:42:24.240 a lot of people, you know, especially long timers, like yeah, 2:42:24.280 --> 2:42:26.240 this is a really good contract with you know, the 2:42:26.240 --> 2:42:29.600 best I've seen, uh, you know, in my days here. 2:42:30.520 --> 2:42:32.520 And then there's you know, there's been another few other 2:42:32.520 --> 2:42:35.320 people who are like, yeah, I'm gonna vote yes, but 2:42:36.040 --> 2:42:39.320 it really doesn't really seem like you know, it's matching, 2:42:40.040 --> 2:42:44.800 you know, the framing of you know, this historic contract. 2:42:46.080 --> 2:42:48.320 And then also know there's yeah, I mean other people 2:42:48.320 --> 2:42:50.959 who are just kind of like, no, this seems I 2:42:50.959 --> 2:42:52.760 mean I was kind of like too little, too late, 2:42:53.240 --> 2:42:58.199 Like the games aren't quite there. Yeah, it's there's there's raises. 2:42:59.000 --> 2:43:01.280 They're also kind of done in weird way where they're 2:43:01.520 --> 2:43:03.400 more or less like kind of proNT loaded towards the 2:43:03.680 --> 2:43:06.320 first and last year, and everything in the middle is 2:43:06.320 --> 2:43:10.240 a lot lower to the point actually where and it 2:43:10.240 --> 2:43:12.560 gets confusing because everyone's kind of at a different rate 2:43:12.600 --> 2:43:16.040 with those market rate adjustments. You know, the more you're 2:43:16.080 --> 2:43:20.720 making from you know, that supplemental pay, the worse this 2:43:20.800 --> 2:43:23.480 is going to keep with inflation to the point where 2:43:23.480 --> 2:43:26.440 it's kind of you're only actually going to be just 2:43:26.520 --> 2:43:31.520 above inflation towards the end of the contract. Especially one 2:43:31.560 --> 2:43:33.760 of the definitely one of the weaker things in the 2:43:33.840 --> 2:43:38.359 contract is all new hires or current people without seniority 2:43:38.920 --> 2:43:40.920 are going to be on a different tier. And this 2:43:40.959 --> 2:43:46.200 is where the part timer inside warehouse positions, so you know, 2:43:46.480 --> 2:43:50.280 the uh yeah, so if you have seniority, it's minimum 2:43:50.360 --> 2:43:53.040 of twenty one an hour to start, and that goes 2:43:53.080 --> 2:43:57.520 up to twenty five seventy five an hour versus those 2:43:57.640 --> 2:43:59.720 new hires or no seniority employees are going to be 2:43:59.720 --> 2:44:02.960 at one with the progression to twenty three the fifty 2:44:03.040 --> 2:44:09.039 cent raises, and of course, uh you know, once you 2:44:09.080 --> 2:44:11.840 know tack on the average you know a little bit 2:44:11.879 --> 2:44:15.840 over three percent inflation, you know can kind of quickly see, uh, 2:44:16.120 --> 2:44:18.199 it's those new members who are getting the worst part 2:44:18.320 --> 2:44:18.840 of the deal. 2:44:19.640 --> 2:44:23.000 Yeah, And that comes to I think another thing that 2:44:23.640 --> 2:44:27.039 is like I don't know so, but when this was 2:44:27.040 --> 2:44:29.800 all first happening and I've seen this like a lot 2:44:30.320 --> 2:44:32.720 from people talking about this is people talking about this 2:44:32.840 --> 2:44:35.240 is like a contract that like ends the tier systems, 2:44:35.240 --> 2:44:37.760 and that just like doesn't seem to be true at all. 2:44:38.840 --> 2:44:42.119 Yeah, and so one of the things, So there's the yeah, 2:44:42.160 --> 2:44:44.240 I believe we spoke to this last time. The two 2:44:44.320 --> 2:44:46.680 two four is what it's called, where it's a combo 2:44:47.080 --> 2:44:51.400 driver and inside warehouse position and most of the time, 2:44:51.560 --> 2:44:54.360 you know, they were just more or less practically full 2:44:54.400 --> 2:44:57.120 time drivers, except for a few times where you know 2:44:57.520 --> 2:45:00.440 they es'ch like earlier this year they tried to transition 2:45:00.520 --> 2:45:04.400 them to mostly like inside full time. But so the 2:45:04.440 --> 2:45:06.800 thing is, yeah, those will all get you know, converted 2:45:06.840 --> 2:45:12.080 to the package car drivers with that, I believe, with 2:45:12.360 --> 2:45:14.360 that raid or at least very similar. 2:45:14.840 --> 2:45:15.080 Yeah. 2:45:15.160 --> 2:45:17.600 Yeah, so we did get rid of the twenty two fours, 2:45:18.920 --> 2:45:22.280 and that was the big promise, you know, going into 2:45:22.320 --> 2:45:25.920 this contract fight. But yeah, no, there are definitely still 2:45:26.160 --> 2:45:31.360 remaining tiers within ups. You know, there's this new one 2:45:31.400 --> 2:45:34.280 that's been created, which is the you know, the tier 2:45:34.320 --> 2:45:37.440 between the what they call the unborn. That's how they 2:45:37.480 --> 2:45:40.440 refer to people that have not yet been hired by 2:45:40.560 --> 2:45:44.120 ups that have like stipulations in the contract, right, Yeah, 2:45:44.120 --> 2:45:46.600 they call them the unborn. It's it's kind of funny. 2:45:47.760 --> 2:45:50.039 And you know, their whole thing is that they just 2:45:50.080 --> 2:45:52.640 have a completely different wage progression than the rest of 2:45:52.720 --> 2:45:57.160 us do. But in addition to that tier which was introduced, 2:45:57.720 --> 2:46:01.680 you know, there are tiers elsewhere. Sometimes it's a tier 2:46:01.760 --> 2:46:04.880 between the hubs, like all of the hubs are making 2:46:04.920 --> 2:46:08.720 different MRAs and stuff like that. But additionally, there are 2:46:08.760 --> 2:46:12.279 some hubs that don't have a daily guarantee of hours 2:46:12.440 --> 2:46:16.160 like regular hubs do, like for instance, air hubs. Right, 2:46:18.080 --> 2:46:22.200 so like that's another basically another tier, because it's you know, 2:46:22.280 --> 2:46:26.600 people doing the same work but not guaranteed the same things. 2:46:28.320 --> 2:46:32.720 And yeah, yeah, so there's definitely tiers remaining in this 2:46:32.879 --> 2:46:38.720 contract for sure, and it's really unfortunate to see that 2:46:38.920 --> 2:46:42.360 the one existing didn't get addressed and that they just 2:46:42.400 --> 2:46:45.359 created a whole new one, even though they are adamantly 2:46:46.000 --> 2:46:47.400 insisting it is not a tier. 2:46:48.720 --> 2:46:50.840 Yeah, and that's you know, and this goes back to, 2:46:51.080 --> 2:46:54.600 I believe the nineteen eighty two contract, which is when 2:46:55.160 --> 2:46:59.280 the full time and part time pay was changed to 2:46:59.360 --> 2:47:03.640 different different tiers, with part time getting like four dollars 2:47:03.720 --> 2:47:07.920 less than full time, which was I think twelve twelve 2:47:08.160 --> 2:47:11.120 an hour back in eighty two versus eight an hour 2:47:11.160 --> 2:47:14.040 for the part timers, you know, so that that's continued, 2:47:14.160 --> 2:47:16.600 you know, across all these decades. And so now with 2:47:16.680 --> 2:47:23.520 the current contract, provided you're getting paid the contract minimums, Yeah, 2:47:23.520 --> 2:47:27.640 you're looking at full time inside warehouse, their top rate 2:47:28.600 --> 2:47:32.080 going to thirty six dollars an hour, I believe, and 2:47:32.120 --> 2:47:37.320 then you're gonna have part timers who have seniority just 2:47:37.440 --> 2:47:39.959 below twenty six an hour, and then you're gonna have 2:47:40.000 --> 2:47:42.640 those people who weren't quite in the door yet at 2:47:42.640 --> 2:47:47.640 twenty three. And of course, you know it's doing more 2:47:47.720 --> 2:47:50.359 or less the you know, the same work the inside. 2:47:50.640 --> 2:47:54.680 You know, you're doing your loading, unloading, sorting, the other 2:47:54.920 --> 2:47:58.640 you know, various positions there. And of course, you know, 2:47:58.680 --> 2:48:01.200 one of the things I've seen, you know, particularly online, 2:48:01.240 --> 2:48:04.080 I haven't heard this on the shop floor. It's just like, oh, well, 2:48:04.280 --> 2:48:06.400 you know they're working more, so of course they're going 2:48:06.480 --> 2:48:08.560 to get paid more. But it's like, okay, well, yeah, 2:48:09.440 --> 2:48:11.920 they have more hours, so they would get more paid, 2:48:11.920 --> 2:48:13.960 but that doesn't mean that they should be at a 2:48:14.040 --> 2:48:17.800 higher hourly rate. Yeah, there's going to be other things too, 2:48:17.840 --> 2:48:20.480 like the pension of CRUL and you know, vacation time 2:48:20.480 --> 2:48:22.800 where you're working more, you're going to get more of 2:48:22.800 --> 2:48:26.400 that too. It's kind of has its own reward. There's 2:48:26.600 --> 2:48:30.000 really no reason to have, you know, like a ten 2:48:30.080 --> 2:48:34.039 dollars discrepancy for that type of works performed. 2:48:36.520 --> 2:48:38.520 Also, I was doing some quick math in the background, 2:48:38.600 --> 2:48:39.840 and the. 2:48:41.720 --> 2:48:45.880 Nineteen eighty two I wagees like thirty six dollars an 2:48:45.879 --> 2:48:51.680 hour and with inflation. Now, so that's FRAE. That's fine. 2:48:51.720 --> 2:48:59.360 Sorry, Yeah, I don't know. I think it's when I 2:48:59.360 --> 2:49:03.400 think about, you know, this union being touted as historic, 2:49:03.520 --> 2:49:05.760 I like actually think about, like what are the actual 2:49:05.840 --> 2:49:08.720 historic wins of the labor movement, And you know, I'm 2:49:08.720 --> 2:49:11.199 thinking about, like, you know, the right to a five 2:49:11.280 --> 2:49:15.520 day work week. Meanwhile, this historic contract, you know it 2:49:15.680 --> 2:49:18.320 ended six day punches, but that's that's not a new 2:49:18.440 --> 2:49:21.920 historical thing. That was something we lost and then regained 2:49:21.959 --> 2:49:26.359 with this contract. So it's you know, in my mind, 2:49:26.600 --> 2:49:31.119 it's not really breaking any barriers or like you know, 2:49:31.240 --> 2:49:34.800 blowing anyone's minds, you know, especially when we have Sean 2:49:34.920 --> 2:49:40.080 Faine of the UAWD, who is talking about, you know, 2:49:40.120 --> 2:49:42.600 one of their demands is a thirty two hour work week, right, 2:49:42.879 --> 2:49:46.840 Like he's he's advocating that every worker needs a forty 2:49:46.840 --> 2:49:49.560 percent increase in pay because the CEO got a forty 2:49:49.560 --> 2:49:56.560 percent increase in pay. And yeah, it's just yeah, our 2:49:57.000 --> 2:50:00.200 contract just you know, it isn't at that level by 2:50:00.200 --> 2:50:00.760 any means. 2:50:01.080 --> 2:50:04.480 When you s that word historic, you know, like I 2:50:04.520 --> 2:50:07.320 think there could be times where you can, you know, 2:50:07.440 --> 2:50:10.680 call something historic before it stands the test of time. 2:50:11.760 --> 2:50:14.040 But this is kind of like, Okay, this is kind 2:50:14.080 --> 2:50:16.480 of I feel like the contract, you know, you would 2:50:16.480 --> 2:50:20.760 expect a union to bargain. Maybe it's I mean partly 2:50:20.800 --> 2:50:24.800 it's historic because there just really hasn't been really any 2:50:24.840 --> 2:50:29.320 gains and so it's kind of like, Okay, you've got 2:50:29.360 --> 2:50:34.840 us wage increases. Isn't that kind of just like what 2:50:34.920 --> 2:50:35.680 you should be doing? 2:50:38.240 --> 2:50:40.039 Yeah, well, I mean, I mean this is this has 2:50:40.080 --> 2:50:43.000 been there's been like this has been like the there's 2:50:43.000 --> 2:50:46.720 been a bunch of unions in the last like maybe 2:50:46.760 --> 2:50:49.800 like eight months who have like settled and been like 2:50:49.800 --> 2:50:52.600 we've gotten historic races, and it's like, I don't know, 2:50:52.760 --> 2:50:55.240 it's the thing that seems actually historic about it is 2:50:55.320 --> 2:50:58.280 essentially averting like averting this massive strikewave. 2:50:58.920 --> 2:51:00.840 Yeah, one of the things I want to add was, 2:51:01.600 --> 2:51:05.120 you know, especially with those combo positions, uh, you know, 2:51:05.280 --> 2:51:08.440 ending that tier. That was something that was introduced in 2:51:08.480 --> 2:51:13.160 the previous contract, which rank and file members voted down. 2:51:13.800 --> 2:51:15.720 It was a no vote, but it was just because 2:51:15.760 --> 2:51:20.800 of this uh you know, kind of obscure you know 2:51:20.959 --> 2:51:24.760 rule in the constitution where it's just like fifty percent 2:51:24.840 --> 2:51:27.920 of people don't vote, then it required the two thirds 2:51:28.360 --> 2:51:31.840 you know, no vote. So you know, that was just 2:51:31.920 --> 2:51:36.240 completely you know, over overruled by the union, like we're 2:51:36.240 --> 2:51:39.680 going to do this anyways, So kind of you know, 2:51:39.760 --> 2:51:42.360 it's good that we righted that wrong. You know, it's 2:51:42.360 --> 2:51:44.400 good to reduce a tier. Of course, I'm not going 2:51:44.480 --> 2:51:47.760 to knock that, but just kind of those things where 2:51:47.760 --> 2:51:50.800 it's like, yeah, but membership already didn't want that, or 2:51:50.800 --> 2:51:51.279 at least. 2:51:52.840 --> 2:51:54.840 Yeah, you guys, did you guys introduced this in the 2:51:54.840 --> 2:51:58.680 first place, like come on, yeah. 2:51:58.760 --> 2:52:02.000 Yeah. It's also worth note that the twenty two to 2:52:02.000 --> 2:52:04.760 four position, you know, it wasn't working for our members, 2:52:04.760 --> 2:52:07.800 but it also wasn't working for the company either. They 2:52:07.800 --> 2:52:12.640 were having significant trouble trying to fill all the shifts 2:52:12.680 --> 2:52:16.680 that were needed and required by the position, and to 2:52:16.720 --> 2:52:19.160 the point that workers ended up kind of being slotted 2:52:19.200 --> 2:52:21.840 into one or the other with like really bad schedules, 2:52:21.879 --> 2:52:25.240 and it wasn't It wasn't working for either, is the thing. 2:52:26.879 --> 2:52:29.080 So it is it's great that we got rid of it, 2:52:29.680 --> 2:52:32.920 but it seems like it was somewhat of an easy 2:52:33.000 --> 2:52:39.800 thing to win. It made mutual sense, right, and yeah, yeah, 2:52:39.840 --> 2:52:45.080 it's just there were you know, there were bigger there 2:52:45.120 --> 2:52:47.320 could have been bigger fights over other things in this 2:52:47.360 --> 2:52:51.160 contract that weren't pursued, right, So. 2:52:53.840 --> 2:52:56.160 Yeah, I mean that's that's the thing. From everything that 2:52:56.200 --> 2:52:59.520 I've seen from it, it seems like it seems like 2:52:59.520 --> 2:53:01.280 the goal of this contract is to get a contract 2:53:01.280 --> 2:53:03.400 that's like exactly good enough to get like fifty one 2:53:03.440 --> 2:53:06.400 percent of the vote in a contract to avoid UPS 2:53:06.400 --> 2:53:09.640 having to like actually deal with a contract that a 2:53:09.680 --> 2:53:10.440 strip would produce. 2:53:11.040 --> 2:53:13.920 Mm hm oh yeah, oh yeah. 2:53:14.680 --> 2:53:17.440 Yeah. It's kind of the I mean, whether I mean 2:53:17.440 --> 2:53:19.840 probably intentional where it's just like you know, it's like 2:53:20.320 --> 2:53:24.039 just good enough you know to maybe warrant like a 2:53:24.160 --> 2:53:27.840 yes vote, and especially i mean in context of you know, 2:53:27.920 --> 2:53:32.800 the last however many contracts, but it's kind of one 2:53:32.800 --> 2:53:35.199 of those things where it's like, okay, by comparison, it's good. 2:53:35.440 --> 2:53:38.920 But again, you know, I don't think it quite goes 2:53:38.920 --> 2:53:42.200 far enough either on the wage side, you know, on 2:53:42.280 --> 2:53:45.360 the on the wages or you know, especially one of 2:53:45.360 --> 2:53:48.840 the issues I've been focused on a lot is the 2:53:48.879 --> 2:53:50.400 heat protections. 2:53:50.800 --> 2:53:53.320 Yeah, can we can we talk about well specifically the 2:53:53.360 --> 2:53:56.000 heat protections, but then also kind of talk a bit 2:53:56.040 --> 2:53:58.720 about what's what is in the contract and what like 2:53:58.800 --> 2:54:02.760 isn't in the contract that should be Oh yeah, you 2:54:02.760 --> 2:54:04.280 can start with the heat production stuff. 2:54:05.080 --> 2:54:07.920 Yeah. So one of the things, so they'll be rolling 2:54:08.000 --> 2:54:13.440 out air conditioners in the the uh All trucks package 2:54:13.480 --> 2:54:18.039 cars purchase to believe after August of the next year, 2:54:18.600 --> 2:54:22.600 and they'll be kind of distributing them by zones and 2:54:22.680 --> 2:54:28.120 current ones will be retrofitted with my heat shields and events. 2:54:30.200 --> 2:54:33.920 I'm not quite sure how effective that'll be. One of 2:54:33.920 --> 2:54:37.119 the things for the inside people, you know it's there. 2:54:37.800 --> 2:54:40.439 You know, they'll be installing you know, tens of thousands 2:54:40.600 --> 2:54:43.800 of more fans, which you know, I'm not gonna lie 2:54:44.240 --> 2:54:48.360 that that will feel really nice because those trailers just 2:54:48.400 --> 2:54:52.520 get so hot and stuffy. There's no airflow, especially like 2:54:52.600 --> 2:54:54.440 if it's been sitting for a while, you open the door, 2:54:54.480 --> 2:54:56.959 it's just like a blast of heat. But the problem 2:54:56.959 --> 2:55:01.200 with fans is they're only so effective, particularly once it 2:55:01.240 --> 2:55:06.879 reaches ninety five degrees. They don't do anything. And so 2:55:07.160 --> 2:55:11.320 you know, there's a lot of places where it'll probably 2:55:11.320 --> 2:55:13.760 feel nice and it might help to some degree, but 2:55:13.840 --> 2:55:16.480 you know, especially like right now in you know, like 2:55:16.520 --> 2:55:20.360 the Southwest and the south where you've just had these 2:55:21.160 --> 2:55:24.440 you know, one hundred and ten plus degree days, you know, 2:55:24.600 --> 2:55:28.200 like over a month, like that's not going to do 2:55:30.080 --> 2:55:34.680 really do much, especially if you're anywhere depending on if 2:55:34.720 --> 2:55:38.720 you've got dry heat or you know, higher humidity. In 2:55:38.760 --> 2:55:42.959 the latter, fans can and sometimes make it worse. I'm 2:55:42.959 --> 2:55:44.520 also worried it's going to kind of be like this 2:55:45.360 --> 2:55:48.800 kind of like a comparison to a like security theater, 2:55:49.000 --> 2:55:51.640 but like more like safety theater, where it's this appearance 2:55:51.680 --> 2:55:56.480 of doing something to say like, look, we're doing this thing. 2:55:56.520 --> 2:55:59.800 It's going to keep you safe. But whether that's you know, 2:56:00.520 --> 2:56:04.920 actually true or not, well, I mean, we'll kind of 2:56:04.959 --> 2:56:09.520 find out. But definitely I'm pretty worried about, you know, 2:56:09.560 --> 2:56:12.600 what's going to happen, especially in the next five years 2:56:13.000 --> 2:56:16.080 we already have and I think it was the it 2:56:16.120 --> 2:56:20.320 was it. It was the World Meteorological Organization, you know, 2:56:20.400 --> 2:56:23.360 now has a their researchers have like a ninety eight 2:56:23.360 --> 2:56:27.600 percent certainty that we're going to reach a high mark 2:56:28.120 --> 2:56:31.600 for global warming before twenty twenty seven, so, you know, 2:56:31.640 --> 2:56:34.800 and I'm pretty sure last July was already the the 2:56:34.840 --> 2:56:41.320 hottest month on record globally, and it's something to read. 2:56:41.440 --> 2:56:43.240 There's and I think in that report was like a 2:56:43.320 --> 2:56:46.840 sixty six percent chance of passing that one point five 2:56:47.040 --> 2:56:52.880 degrees celsius warming global warming between now and twenty twenty seven. 2:56:54.879 --> 2:56:56.840 So it's kind of one of those things where you know, 2:56:56.920 --> 2:57:00.800 I don't think we necessarily have five years to to 2:57:01.959 --> 2:57:06.240 you know, address this contract language and add further protections. 2:57:06.840 --> 2:57:12.640 Especially we've got other unions like the International Longshorn Warehouse Union. 2:57:13.520 --> 2:57:16.480 They had an article that's talking about their heat protections, 2:57:16.520 --> 2:57:19.360 which have things like stewards that are equipped with heat 2:57:19.400 --> 2:57:24.080 monitoring equipment versus the current contract language for us would 2:57:24.120 --> 2:57:26.879 be they can just use like the OSHA app or 2:57:27.920 --> 2:57:30.240 you know, like weather service to check you know, like 2:57:30.280 --> 2:57:33.879 a weather station versus like the actual specific conditions you're 2:57:33.879 --> 2:57:34.400 working in. 2:57:34.800 --> 2:57:36.760 Yeah, Yeah, that seems like there'd be a huge it 2:57:36.840 --> 2:57:38.880 seems like there's a huge discrepancy there because like the 2:57:38.920 --> 2:57:41.480 indoor temperatures and temperatures in these trailers are way hotter 2:57:41.600 --> 2:57:44.480 than like the reported conditions. 2:57:45.040 --> 2:57:47.520 Yeah, and it can be like five ten degrees hotter 2:57:47.560 --> 2:57:54.160 at least. I bought a little thermometer and hydrometer, hygrometer 2:57:54.320 --> 2:57:57.640 something like that whatever, measure to humidity, because that's kind 2:57:57.640 --> 2:58:00.800 of how because there are states with heat protections, there's 2:58:00.920 --> 2:58:03.120 like seven of them. A lot of times they're using 2:58:03.160 --> 2:58:06.240 the heat index when you're factoring in the temperature and 2:58:06.360 --> 2:58:12.360 humidity to get the fields like temperature and yeah, with 2:58:12.560 --> 2:58:16.520 the il WU, you know, they're also getting rest breaks 2:58:16.560 --> 2:58:19.760 as part of their contract language, which I believe two 2:58:19.840 --> 2:58:24.200 or three states have those of the seven total that 2:58:24.240 --> 2:58:28.680 actually have heat protections. And you know, the il WU 2:58:28.920 --> 2:58:31.720 is kind of talking about even though they have heat 2:58:31.760 --> 2:58:35.040 protections that kind of match or even kind of exceed 2:58:35.080 --> 2:58:38.720 partly what some of the states have. You know, they're 2:58:38.800 --> 2:58:42.240 kind of saying, this isn't enough for the current extreme 2:58:42.320 --> 2:58:43.119 heat we're facing. 2:58:45.120 --> 2:58:47.400 Yeah, I mean, and you know, we've talked about this 2:58:47.480 --> 2:58:50.879 on the show before, but like whatever heat protections get 2:58:50.920 --> 2:58:54.280 negotiated in a contract, like the company is going to 2:58:54.760 --> 2:58:57.520 basically the instant negotiations are over, is going to figure 2:58:57.560 --> 2:59:00.640 out what the a what the cheapest possible way to 2:59:00.680 --> 2:59:02.640 do this is with the shittiest equipment, and then be 2:59:03.520 --> 2:59:05.680 like try to They're going to immediately try to figure 2:59:05.680 --> 2:59:09.720 out like how you know, like how how to actually 2:59:09.760 --> 2:59:11.400 subvert it. And you know, this is this is the 2:59:11.400 --> 2:59:13.440 thing we've seen all over the world, even in places 2:59:13.440 --> 2:59:16.480 that have sort of national heat protection laws, is that 2:59:16.560 --> 2:59:18.000 you know, even even if you have a law, or 2:59:18.000 --> 2:59:19.600 even if you have a thing in the contract, even 2:59:19.640 --> 2:59:21.760 if you have something in your contract, it doesn't necessarily 2:59:21.800 --> 2:59:24.280 mean it's going to be enforced. And that requires a 2:59:24.800 --> 2:59:28.560 you know, it requires like a pretty significant degree of 2:59:28.720 --> 2:59:31.480 organization to make sure it stays enforced. And that's you 2:59:31.520 --> 2:59:33.840 know that that's true both of stuff that's in contract 2:59:33.840 --> 2:59:36.720 and stuff that's like legally required, and so like if 2:59:36.760 --> 2:59:41.360 if if if the thing that they're nominally required to 2:59:41.520 --> 2:59:44.560 do is still insufficient, it's going to end up being 2:59:44.640 --> 2:59:45.920 way worse than that on the ground. 2:59:48.600 --> 2:59:51.240 Yeah, we're seeing that with art I mean existing heat 2:59:51.280 --> 2:59:54.280 protections at the state level where they're you know, falling 2:59:54.360 --> 2:59:58.119 short and especially you know there's either you know, there's 2:59:58.200 --> 3:00:01.119 kind of loopholes or even just kind of like murky 3:00:01.200 --> 3:00:03.840 language that makes it really hard to enforce in some. 3:00:03.760 --> 3:00:06.840 Cases, do not have a good transition. 3:00:06.959 --> 3:00:07.800 But it's hot. 3:00:09.800 --> 3:00:12.440 Yeah, here here are some ads that are i don't know, 3:00:13.360 --> 3:00:19.039 hopefully not making the climate worse. And we're back. So 3:00:19.320 --> 3:00:23.119 outside of the sort of of the experience around heat, 3:00:23.320 --> 3:00:24.840 what what else has been going? 3:00:24.959 --> 3:00:25.080 Like? 3:00:25.080 --> 3:00:29.160 What else is in the contract that there's been sort 3:00:29.160 --> 3:00:29.840 of dispute over? 3:00:32.480 --> 3:00:36.200 So if you look online, and this is an instance 3:00:36.240 --> 3:00:39.240 of not really quite understanding what's in the contract. But 3:00:39.280 --> 3:00:42.120 if you go online, a lot of people think that 3:00:42.160 --> 3:00:50.560 there are pension freezes in the contract and one once again, 3:00:50.600 --> 3:00:54.160 I think we can contribute this misunderstanding to a calm 3:00:54.200 --> 3:00:57.320 strategy failure as well as a lack of open bargaining 3:00:59.560 --> 3:01:06.960 the the dot coms. The pension contribution rate has decreased, 3:01:07.040 --> 3:01:11.199 but money is still going in to the pension fund, 3:01:12.280 --> 3:01:15.440 not as much as it was. Is my understanding. The 3:01:15.440 --> 3:01:18.640 way the union broke it down for me was like 3:01:18.720 --> 3:01:21.240 there's a dollar and twenty five cents of that dollar 3:01:21.600 --> 3:01:24.920 is going to healthcare. Twenty five cents of that dollar 3:01:25.000 --> 3:01:27.000 is going to the pension and then fifty cents of 3:01:27.040 --> 3:01:30.160 it is going to wages. And I'm gonna be honest 3:01:30.200 --> 3:01:33.480 with you, I don't super understand all this money stuff either, 3:01:34.879 --> 3:01:36.959 but we yeah, they showed us a thing where like 3:01:37.040 --> 3:01:41.360 the contributions are going to keep happening. Other things that 3:01:41.400 --> 3:01:45.000 have been in the kind of in the like what 3:01:45.040 --> 3:01:48.400 we've all what people have been thinking about is the 3:01:48.440 --> 3:01:51.040 full time jobs, which I know we talked a lot 3:01:51.080 --> 3:01:56.120 about on the last one, and uh, yeah, that's it. 3:01:56.600 --> 3:01:59.959 I think we we were using the seventy five hundred 3:02:00.040 --> 3:02:04.039 for newly created jobs, but apparently the contract also specifically 3:02:04.080 --> 3:02:08.600 requires them to actually fill the twenty two thousand some 3:02:09.400 --> 3:02:13.560 full time jobs that exist that they just have not 3:02:13.680 --> 3:02:17.200 been filling. But even with that additional twenty two thousand, 3:02:17.879 --> 3:02:21.760 that's still roughly thirty thousand full time jobs, that is 3:02:21.800 --> 3:02:24.720 for the full time workfor for the whole workforce of 3:02:24.720 --> 3:02:27.960 three hundred and forty thousand people. And something I learned 3:02:28.040 --> 3:02:32.160 is that full time drivers can bid into those positions 3:02:32.200 --> 3:02:35.600 and get them because they will likely have the seniority 3:02:35.640 --> 3:02:37.520 to do so. Because that's how we determine how to 3:02:37.560 --> 3:02:39.720 fill jobs. It's by seniority. You know, how long have 3:02:39.800 --> 3:02:42.000 you been there? And usually you know, I think that 3:02:42.080 --> 3:02:46.720 makes sense, but you know that really just contributes to 3:02:46.760 --> 3:02:50.480 the long long wait of part timers trying to get 3:02:50.520 --> 3:02:56.800 full time work, right, And yeah, like the thing like 3:02:56.959 --> 3:02:58.840 kind of related to that. You know, we have these 3:02:59.000 --> 3:03:00.920 like if you have a market rate adjustment and you 3:03:00.959 --> 3:03:03.160 get your two seventy five, for me, that's going to 3:03:03.200 --> 3:03:06.960 be twenty six seventy five an hour, And that looks 3:03:07.000 --> 3:03:09.640 great until you remember that we are part time. It 3:03:09.800 --> 3:03:13.640 is like we are supposed to work half a work week. 3:03:14.320 --> 3:03:16.360 I work less than because of the hub that I 3:03:16.400 --> 3:03:21.600 am at, which is not great, but you know, we 3:03:22.280 --> 3:03:26.840 need the hours and there's not the there isn't enough jobs, 3:03:27.400 --> 3:03:30.160 and that's stimulated by this contract. I think that there 3:03:30.480 --> 3:03:32.160 probably could be a lot more jobs. 3:03:32.480 --> 3:03:35.120 Yeah, I want to see something about that specifically too, 3:03:35.160 --> 3:03:37.840 which is that like when when like you random listener 3:03:37.840 --> 3:03:41.600 who's not working EPs whenever you see someone like talking 3:03:41.640 --> 3:03:44.200 about a wage number, and it's for part timers, Like 3:03:44.520 --> 3:03:46.000 if if you want to try to figure out can 3:03:46.040 --> 3:03:48.000 this person's your vibe? You need to divide that number 3:03:48.000 --> 3:03:50.640 by two at like at the very least divide up 3:03:50.640 --> 3:03:53.480 by two, possibly divide it by more, because again, like you, 3:03:53.600 --> 3:03:56.360 they don't. No one's like if you're a part timer, 3:03:56.440 --> 3:03:58.959 like obviously, yeah you're not. You're not getting the hours 3:03:59.400 --> 3:04:01.280 that you know, that that that you that you would 3:04:01.280 --> 3:04:04.680 norbly you know if you can't just immediately convert that 3:04:04.920 --> 3:04:06.720 to what would the salary be if you worked, if 3:04:06.760 --> 3:04:08.920 you got like forty hours a week or whatever, Like, 3:04:08.959 --> 3:04:11.080 you can't do that. I've seen a lot I've seen 3:04:11.120 --> 3:04:13.200 this a lot, a lot, like on the internet. I've 3:04:13.200 --> 3:04:16.600 seen pundits talking about it like this, and it's just 3:04:17.080 --> 3:04:22.280 like a incomprehensible misunderstanding of the act of like how 3:04:22.360 --> 3:04:25.520 how this stuff actually works for you to be going like, oh, 3:04:25.560 --> 3:04:27.680 look at all this money that people are making, assuming 3:04:27.760 --> 3:04:29.840 that like you know, and then and then using calculations 3:04:29.840 --> 3:04:32.920 that are based on like someone working full time, which 3:04:32.959 --> 3:04:36.840 is most of the workforce, like a significant significant majority 3:04:36.840 --> 3:04:38.640 of the workforce is not is not working full time 3:04:38.680 --> 3:04:40.720 and will not be even after this contract. 3:04:41.240 --> 3:04:44.359 Yes, yeah, it's yeah, it's estimated there are sixty percent 3:04:44.440 --> 3:04:49.160 of the workforce is uh is part timers. So yeah, no, 3:04:49.280 --> 3:04:52.320 that that is a that is a huge issue, you know, 3:04:52.440 --> 3:04:54.480 a lot of people also, like when this is brought up, 3:04:54.520 --> 3:04:56.080 a lot of people like to then say, well, you know, 3:04:56.160 --> 3:05:00.280 get a second job, but our jobs aren't flexible. Like, 3:05:00.360 --> 3:05:02.760 first of all, fuck fuck having a second job. I 3:05:02.800 --> 3:05:06.760 am kind of staunchly opposed to the entire concept. But 3:05:06.840 --> 3:05:10.199 even if I wasn't, this job is not flexible enough 3:05:10.480 --> 3:05:13.600 to account for a second job, not unless you never 3:05:13.640 --> 3:05:15.920 want to sleep in your second job. Is when you 3:05:16.000 --> 3:05:19.400 should be like sleeping because you know, we have our 3:05:19.440 --> 3:05:22.200 start times, those are given to us a week in advance, 3:05:22.520 --> 3:05:24.400 but we don't know when our end times are because 3:05:24.400 --> 3:05:26.600 the end times are when we run out of packages. 3:05:27.959 --> 3:05:32.720 So you know, some days, you know, like in my hub, 3:05:32.760 --> 3:05:34.879 it's always just going to be the two hours, but 3:05:35.520 --> 3:05:37.760 like in other hubs, you could be there, you know, 3:05:37.840 --> 3:05:39.040 you could be trying to get your three and a 3:05:39.080 --> 3:05:42.480 half hour daily guarantee, like employing that when they're trying 3:05:42.480 --> 3:05:44.560 to send you home, or you could be there six 3:05:44.640 --> 3:05:51.240 seven hours, and you know, how, how how is another 3:05:51.320 --> 3:05:55.440 employer supposed to operate with that? You know, you call 3:05:55.520 --> 3:05:58.800 in like three times saying like, oh, I can't actually 3:05:58.840 --> 3:06:00.680 leave my first job. You're not gonna have that second 3:06:00.760 --> 3:06:05.480 job much longer. So yeah, in addition to the lack 3:06:05.520 --> 3:06:08.000 of full time jobs, the way this job is makes 3:06:08.000 --> 3:06:10.880 a second one impossible. So a lot of our part 3:06:10.879 --> 3:06:14.320 timers really are relying on that on that part time 3:06:14.400 --> 3:06:17.360 wage to get them through and picking up doubles when 3:06:17.360 --> 3:06:19.600 they can, which means you kind of end up having 3:06:19.600 --> 3:06:22.240 a ten hour day because there's like about a two 3:06:22.280 --> 3:06:30.000 hour like space of time in between the shifts. So yeah, yeah, 3:06:30.040 --> 3:06:33.520 it's uh, yeah, those are those are some some of 3:06:33.560 --> 3:06:34.320 the big issues. 3:06:34.840 --> 3:06:37.400 So yeah, that's one of my worries. You know, if 3:06:37.400 --> 3:06:39.119 I about you know, if I want to go full 3:06:39.200 --> 3:06:42.880 time or not, is you know, can be at least 3:06:42.879 --> 3:06:46.760 in the hub I work at, I would say usually 3:06:47.000 --> 3:06:49.560 I'm getting like twenty four hours a week, you know 3:06:49.560 --> 3:06:52.039 if I'm going full time, but double that because now 3:06:52.040 --> 3:06:54.200 I'm marking two shifts. But also you know, got to 3:06:54.240 --> 3:06:57.240 have that like hour or two of wait time between shifts. 3:06:58.400 --> 3:07:00.280 So you know, it's just a lot of time to 3:07:00.360 --> 3:07:04.320 be spending at work, especially on paid time at work. 3:07:04.360 --> 3:07:07.200 That is that is the worst. You know, it's not 3:07:07.280 --> 3:07:09.600 quite long enough stretch to like go home or at 3:07:09.680 --> 3:07:13.400 least you know you have a decent commute to work. 3:07:14.800 --> 3:07:18.400 And you know, another thing kind of came to my 3:07:18.440 --> 3:07:23.000 mind a little earlier earlier was that and it sounds like, 3:07:23.200 --> 3:07:25.840 at least talking with new hires, that this is still continuing, 3:07:25.879 --> 3:07:29.320 which is kind of this really deceptive hiring practice where 3:07:29.680 --> 3:07:32.800 the hours are posted. When I got the job, you know, 3:07:32.879 --> 3:07:35.720 it was posted as part time for get, it was 3:07:35.720 --> 3:07:39.039 something like I don't know, nine to four, but you know, 3:07:39.080 --> 3:07:41.920 had that schedule for five days a week, seven hour shifts, 3:07:42.000 --> 3:07:44.960 thirty five hours a week times. By the twenty six 3:07:45.080 --> 3:07:47.760 starting pay, I was like, oh, perfect, I'll be making like, 3:07:48.360 --> 3:07:52.640 you know, somewhere like mid forty thousand. That's that's livable 3:07:52.800 --> 3:07:57.560 at least for for my specific you know circumstances. But 3:07:57.600 --> 3:08:00.200 then of course get there and you know the yeah, 3:08:00.240 --> 3:08:03.360 we get two days notice for a start time. It's 3:08:03.400 --> 3:08:06.560 posted on our either you know, end of the week, 3:08:06.760 --> 3:08:10.120 so don't know exactly when I'm working, you know, until 3:08:10.200 --> 3:08:13.920 right before the next week, and you know, at least 3:08:13.920 --> 3:08:16.080 there an orientation. So when I asked, oh, like, what's 3:08:16.120 --> 3:08:18.039 actually the end time, I was just like, well, when 3:08:18.080 --> 3:08:21.360 the last package is loaded. Of course, if you know 3:08:21.400 --> 3:08:23.240 what when the next shift starts, you can kind of 3:08:23.240 --> 3:08:26.440 get a better idea of when you'll actually be out 3:08:26.440 --> 3:08:29.680 of there. But still it's just kind of it's, you know, 3:08:29.760 --> 3:08:35.160 it's this claim flexibility, but it's very difficult you know, 3:08:35.320 --> 3:08:37.640 to actually work a second job or even you know, 3:08:37.680 --> 3:08:40.800 they offer tuition reimbursement, and there's a number of students 3:08:40.840 --> 3:08:42.840 who have had you know, a hard time actually like 3:08:43.440 --> 3:08:45.640 you know, getting the time off to attend their classes. 3:08:46.760 --> 3:08:48.840 And I also say, in anywhere that's part time work 3:08:48.840 --> 3:08:51.520 that offers tuition reimbursement, you know, I would say there's 3:08:51.520 --> 3:08:55.000 an expected expectation that Okay, well you're going to school 3:08:55.280 --> 3:08:57.880 and you're working part time. You would think the wages 3:08:57.920 --> 3:09:04.040 then should at least you know, provide enough for rent, food, gas, textbooks, 3:09:04.120 --> 3:09:04.400 all that. 3:09:05.160 --> 3:09:09.280 Yeah, to piggyback off of what Oliver just said regarding 3:09:09.560 --> 3:09:11.800 you know, like this is a wage that is good 3:09:11.879 --> 3:09:14.520 for you know, their situation when they were assuming it 3:09:14.560 --> 3:09:17.080 was at the you know, thirty five hours a week. 3:09:17.440 --> 3:09:19.320 You know, another thing to think about is a lot 3:09:19.320 --> 3:09:21.840 of these part timers, you know, they have families, they 3:09:21.840 --> 3:09:26.800 have significant others that they're caring for. Like, you know 3:09:26.840 --> 3:09:29.040 a lot of people look at this wage and one 3:09:29.120 --> 3:09:31.720 make the faulty assumption that you talked about earlier by 3:09:31.800 --> 3:09:33.840 multiplying it by forty to get the forty and then 3:09:33.879 --> 3:09:36.879 they assume that's for just that one person, And like 3:09:36.959 --> 3:09:39.680 there are part timers of every age, right, and they 3:09:39.720 --> 3:09:42.959 all have their own their own families and stuff like 3:09:42.959 --> 3:09:44.960 that that they are expected to care for as well. 3:09:45.680 --> 3:09:47.280 So like when you look at all of this and 3:09:47.360 --> 3:09:49.760 the you know, the rate of inflation and the way 3:09:49.760 --> 3:09:51.800 the economy is, and you take all of these things 3:09:51.840 --> 3:09:55.240 into account, like the gains that are provided for in 3:09:55.280 --> 3:10:00.360 this contract is not enough when you consider the whole 3:10:00.560 --> 3:10:04.800 of everyone who works at UPS. You know, it's leaving 3:10:04.840 --> 3:10:12.520 behind families, right, Like yeah, it's it's wild. 3:10:13.080 --> 3:10:13.240 Yeah. 3:10:13.240 --> 3:10:17.760 And I think another thing that isn't talked about that 3:10:17.920 --> 3:10:22.720 much in terms of this is like the actual physical 3:10:22.760 --> 3:10:25.800 effect on your body of doing this kind of work, 3:10:26.480 --> 3:10:28.520 because this is like. 3:10:30.240 --> 3:10:33.959 I don't know, this kind of work is. 3:10:32.959 --> 3:10:36.160 Intense enough that I mean, there's there's there's very rare 3:10:36.200 --> 3:10:38.879 risk of injury, and there's also I mean just like 3:10:39.760 --> 3:10:43.720 you know, over the course of time, doing this kind 3:10:43.800 --> 3:10:47.920 of shit is going to like fuck up your body, 3:10:48.120 --> 3:10:50.680 and you know, like part part of the sort of 3:10:50.720 --> 3:10:53.800 bargain of like like part part of the bargain of 3:10:53.800 --> 3:10:55.920 this work is that you're getting you know, it's it's 3:10:55.920 --> 3:10:58.920 in some ways, like it's in some ways like you 3:10:59.440 --> 3:11:02.440 could think about it, like if you're a midlevel football player, 3:11:02.480 --> 3:11:05.480 like you're gonna get your fucking brain destroyed by just 3:11:05.560 --> 3:11:09.160 repeated head trauma, right, and you know, so, so there's 3:11:09.200 --> 3:11:11.000 only a limited amount of time your body can physically 3:11:11.040 --> 3:11:12.680 handle this. And it's like, yeah, okay, it looks like 3:11:12.720 --> 3:11:14.240 you're getting a lot of money in a very short 3:11:14.240 --> 3:11:16.600 amount of time, but you have to, you know, you 3:11:16.680 --> 3:11:19.280 have to live with the sort of physical consequences of 3:11:19.320 --> 3:11:21.120 what happened of what happened to you on that job 3:11:21.160 --> 3:11:23.600 getting the money. So that money also like not just 3:11:23.840 --> 3:11:26.240 doesn't just have to get you to like now right, 3:11:26.480 --> 3:11:30.480 like it also it has to also essentially be compensation 3:11:30.560 --> 3:11:32.440 to the physical damage that you're doing to your body 3:11:32.440 --> 3:11:36.080 by doing this shit. And you know, I think I 3:11:36.120 --> 3:11:38.160 think it I think like these ways look even worse 3:11:38.200 --> 3:11:40.720 when you look at like, you know, when you when 3:11:40.720 --> 3:11:42.520 you think of it in terms of you know, in 3:11:42.520 --> 3:11:44.720 in in like in like not even not just in 3:11:44.760 --> 3:11:46.880 terms of immediate rent, but like in in the really 3:11:46.920 --> 3:11:50.360 long term of having to you know, live with the 3:11:50.400 --> 3:11:53.320 sort of physical damage that you take from doing this stuff. 3:11:54.440 --> 3:11:59.039 Yeah, and that's fine. I just had a coworker talking 3:11:59.080 --> 3:12:02.640 about that today actually, And because that's I mean, there 3:12:02.680 --> 3:12:05.240 are a lot of like college age kids, you know, 3:12:05.280 --> 3:12:09.240 the early twenties. They've at least from you know, my 3:12:09.280 --> 3:12:11.640 experience of notes kind of usually they're kind of like 3:12:11.640 --> 3:12:13.640 the quick turnover. I feel like a lot of people 3:12:13.640 --> 3:12:17.240 are staying more like their you know, thirties, forties. You know, 3:12:17.280 --> 3:12:21.320 we have people older older than that too on my line, 3:12:22.080 --> 3:12:24.400 and I think part of that's just like kind of 3:12:24.400 --> 3:12:28.240 we understand the importance of i mean a gold tier 3:12:29.080 --> 3:12:33.560 health insurance plan and a pension, but you know, of 3:12:33.560 --> 3:12:37.000 course with you know, being older, uh, it's going to 3:12:37.120 --> 3:12:39.920 you know, have even more of an effect on the body. 3:12:41.440 --> 3:12:43.360 And yeah, I know, I know. I've heard people talking 3:12:43.360 --> 3:12:44.840 about this where it's just like, oh, well it's just 3:12:44.920 --> 3:12:47.680 part time or it's you know, entry level you know, 3:12:47.800 --> 3:12:50.400 quote unquote, uh you don't need a degree for this, 3:12:50.520 --> 3:12:52.000 so like why do you think you should be paid more? 3:12:52.000 --> 3:12:55.280 And it's like, well, it's it's brutal. I mean, we 3:12:55.320 --> 3:12:57.400 get a ten minute break, we're working up to six 3:12:57.440 --> 3:13:01.160 hours that is it. Why don't have to do a 3:13:01.240 --> 3:13:04.840 lunch break. I don't know. It seems like UPS just 3:13:05.120 --> 3:13:09.600 always gets there their way, and uh that's you know, 3:13:10.600 --> 3:13:16.120 like state, local, federal law that they don't care. Yeah, right, 3:13:16.280 --> 3:13:21.320 even this last contract and there's so many violations. Of course, 3:13:21.360 --> 3:13:23.600 you know we got to whether you know this is 3:13:23.720 --> 3:13:26.959 yes or no, whatever the next contract is. You know, 3:13:27.080 --> 3:13:28.360 that's going to be a big part of the fight 3:13:28.480 --> 3:13:32.080 is just holding them accountable and to the terms. 3:13:34.720 --> 3:13:40.000 Yeah, yeah, absolutely, Like I you know, I've had coworkers 3:13:40.160 --> 3:13:43.680 out on you know, uh workers comp for like you know, 3:13:43.760 --> 3:13:46.240 doing physical therapy for the injuries that they got on 3:13:46.280 --> 3:13:49.720 the job for like months at a time. Right, these 3:13:49.840 --> 3:13:54.400 like you know, we're sitting around loading boxes all day 3:13:54.760 --> 3:13:56.680 and some of them are very light, but some of 3:13:56.720 --> 3:13:59.920 them are really fucking heavy. Some of them are really 3:14:00.080 --> 3:14:03.840 awkward to hold. They're weirdly shaped. Like, there are some 3:14:03.959 --> 3:14:07.600 boxes where, like they tell you about, UPS tells you 3:14:07.640 --> 3:14:11.320 about methods the eight keys of lifting and lowering that 3:14:11.480 --> 3:14:14.440 you know should make it safe, but like there are 3:14:14.440 --> 3:14:17.960 some boxes where it's impossible to follow those. Those methods 3:14:19.040 --> 3:14:23.720 the absolute bane of my existence, and I recognize them 3:14:23.720 --> 3:14:26.200 every time I see them. I swear to God, these 3:14:26.200 --> 3:14:28.360 things must be just filled with lead because you look 3:14:28.360 --> 3:14:31.400 at them and it's a very small box. You know, 3:14:31.680 --> 3:14:37.640 it's not more than like probably twelve inches long, you know, 3:14:37.800 --> 3:14:41.240 like no, not even twelve inches, probably more like seven 3:14:41.280 --> 3:14:45.280 inches long, you know, like six seven inches wide, and 3:14:45.320 --> 3:14:47.840 then like two and a half inches you know deep, 3:14:48.360 --> 3:14:50.160 And that should be a very easy box, but it's 3:14:50.200 --> 3:14:52.560 like filled with lead. And for whatever reason, it can 3:14:52.600 --> 3:14:57.400 weigh like thirty five to fifty pounds Jesus, And it's 3:14:57.520 --> 3:15:00.600 like one that box is too small to like have 3:15:00.680 --> 3:15:02.959 a team lift on because you can't have two people 3:15:03.000 --> 3:15:06.720 around something like that. And like, you know, when you 3:15:06.760 --> 3:15:09.879 pick up a box, you're supposed to keep the natural 3:15:09.920 --> 3:15:12.440 curve of your back, but do not over extend the curve. 3:15:13.840 --> 3:15:16.840 And you have to for those like packages like that, right, 3:15:17.120 --> 3:15:19.680 Like there's not a way to position yourself to lift 3:15:19.720 --> 3:15:23.280 them safely, and you kind of have to a little 3:15:23.280 --> 3:15:25.320 bit jerk up, which they tell you not to do, 3:15:25.560 --> 3:15:27.600 but that's the only way to get leverage on it. 3:15:28.480 --> 3:15:32.480 And yeah, like and you know, I've been in trailers 3:15:32.520 --> 3:15:36.440 where like a box like that was loaded precariously, like 3:15:36.840 --> 3:15:38.920 just slightly above my head. And one time it came 3:15:39.000 --> 3:15:41.800 crashing down and I like neoed out of the way, 3:15:41.920 --> 3:15:44.440 like I was like in the fucking matrix, and I 3:15:44.480 --> 3:15:46.320 was just like, oh, if I had just been a 3:15:46.360 --> 3:15:49.960 little bit less responsive, that could have been a very 3:15:50.000 --> 3:15:54.160 serious head injury for me. And so yeah, the risk 3:15:54.240 --> 3:15:57.879 of like very severe injury. Like, you know, I busted 3:15:57.879 --> 3:16:03.040 my face open on a grate outside of where the 3:16:03.160 --> 3:16:06.680 what we call the cans, which are like the things 3:16:06.760 --> 3:16:08.760 that have all the packages they bring them to the 3:16:08.800 --> 3:16:10.880 bay doors. I was unloading and I had to go 3:16:11.080 --> 3:16:14.959 between them, and I like there was motor oil spilled. 3:16:15.040 --> 3:16:17.520 I tripped and I like smashed my open my face 3:16:17.560 --> 3:16:20.200 open on a fucking grate and had to get stitches. 3:16:20.440 --> 3:16:26.840 Like it's yeah, no, the safety involved with this job 3:16:27.240 --> 3:16:33.520 is not extremely guaranteed, and yeah, the risk of injury 3:16:33.600 --> 3:16:37.240 is high and we should be preemptively compensated for that. 3:16:38.680 --> 3:16:41.000 Yeah, it's like and even somehow if you managed to 3:16:41.000 --> 3:16:45.480 go like your whole career without a single injury, you know, 3:16:45.600 --> 3:16:48.320 there's well at least like more the kind of like 3:16:48.480 --> 3:16:52.959 accidental injury because it's still it's a lot of repetitive 3:16:53.000 --> 3:16:56.960 motion and you're gonna I mean eventually it's going to 3:16:57.040 --> 3:16:57.800 take its tall. 3:16:58.920 --> 3:17:01.119 If we were doing we're doing, we're doing some more ads. 3:17:01.640 --> 3:17:06.920 Yeah by things, all right, we are back. So I 3:17:06.920 --> 3:17:09.440 guess I know. Another aspect of this that I wanted 3:17:09.440 --> 3:17:15.560 to talk about has been the sort of broader strategy 3:17:15.640 --> 3:17:18.959 of trying to avoid strikes. And this has been both 3:17:19.080 --> 3:17:21.800 sort of to some extent run by union, to some 3:17:21.840 --> 3:17:25.440 extent like imposed from the top down. One of the 3:17:25.480 --> 3:17:26.800 things I wanted to sort of talk about. Yeah, I 3:17:27.240 --> 3:17:31.240 think in a sort of kind of underdiscussed aspect of 3:17:31.360 --> 3:17:35.200 what's been happening in the last sort of year or 3:17:35.240 --> 3:17:40.880 so has been Biden's willingness to get involved in strikes. Earlier, 3:17:41.600 --> 3:17:44.360 you know, Obama eventually got involved in a couple of 3:17:44.400 --> 3:17:47.080 strikes during his tenure, but he tended to not get 3:17:47.120 --> 3:17:49.440 involved until like a strike had been going on for 3:17:49.560 --> 3:17:53.640 like nine months or whatever. And Biden's been taking like 3:17:53.680 --> 3:17:58.039 a very very proactive approach to sort of I don't know, 3:17:58.120 --> 3:18:00.360 strike mitigation. I guess is the sort of of like 3:18:00.560 --> 3:18:03.280 sanitized term you take you to there, like keeping labor piece. 3:18:04.040 --> 3:18:05.920 But he seems to have a sort of you know, 3:18:05.959 --> 3:18:08.840 he's to be getting very very involved very quickly in 3:18:09.040 --> 3:18:12.680 trying to make sure that strikes don't happen. And you 3:18:12.720 --> 3:18:14.400 know the consequence of this is that we didn't get 3:18:14.400 --> 3:18:17.800 the rail strike that we should have gotten, and there's 3:18:17.840 --> 3:18:20.560 been a few other strikes that has sort of been 3:18:20.560 --> 3:18:23.119 a verdant And I wanted to ask, I guess how 3:18:23.160 --> 3:18:25.200 you're thinking about this strike, not just sort of in 3:18:25.280 --> 3:18:30.280 terms of like the immediate benefits, but in terms of 3:18:30.320 --> 3:18:33.920 what it would actually mean if like another major strike 3:18:35.040 --> 3:18:37.199 sort of get shut down before we can get going 3:18:37.400 --> 3:18:41.119 in a year that is, I mean, still even if 3:18:41.160 --> 3:18:44.600 the strike doesn't happen, a pretty sort of full year 3:18:44.640 --> 3:18:45.480 in labor terms. 3:18:47.640 --> 3:18:50.640 Yeah, yeah, well one, I guess I gotta say thank 3:18:50.680 --> 3:18:55.879 you to the most pro labor president of our life. 3:18:56.360 --> 3:18:56.640 Yeah. 3:18:56.800 --> 3:19:00.520 No, he yeah, you're absolutely right. He seem to be 3:19:00.520 --> 3:19:05.520 getting involved early and mitigating them. If I was, if 3:19:05.560 --> 3:19:09.920 I had to speculate, I you know, I he's very 3:19:09.920 --> 3:19:13.560 concerned about this whole economy thing that we keep talking about, right, 3:19:14.240 --> 3:19:17.959 and he doesn't want to see any big shocks to 3:19:18.000 --> 3:19:22.880 the economy. And you know that's something where I guess 3:19:23.040 --> 3:19:28.240 I disagree. I think, you know, I think a shock 3:19:28.280 --> 3:19:30.800 to the economy that is brought about by workers going 3:19:30.840 --> 3:19:34.320 on strike is a reminds them of what they have 3:19:35.200 --> 3:19:39.039 and what they move and what they create, right, And 3:19:39.240 --> 3:19:42.400 I think, yeah, the ruling class, you know, our politicians 3:19:42.560 --> 3:19:46.720 and the capitalists who own our politicians, they they don't 3:19:46.760 --> 3:19:50.560 want us to experience that. You know, Like I remember 3:19:51.480 --> 3:19:57.600 even during the you know, the Trump administration, when you 3:19:57.640 --> 3:20:00.680 know it was when during the government shutdown and Sarah 3:20:00.680 --> 3:20:03.480 Nelson got all the flight attendants to do a sick 3:20:03.480 --> 3:20:06.800 out and stuff like that, and kind of just like that, 3:20:06.840 --> 3:20:09.360 the government shutdown had ended and they all went back 3:20:09.440 --> 3:20:14.560 to do government things, whatever those government things are. And 3:20:14.600 --> 3:20:17.000 you know, like people on Twitter, you know, they were 3:20:17.000 --> 3:20:20.560 talking about like, yeah, this is like workers have power 3:20:20.720 --> 3:20:24.200 to affect not only their own work conditions, but they 3:20:24.200 --> 3:20:28.600 can have broad implications on society, on the political climate, 3:20:28.680 --> 3:20:32.280 on what's going on. And yeah, there was absolutely, I 3:20:32.280 --> 3:20:37.199 think a contingent of centrist liberals that were like really 3:20:37.240 --> 3:20:40.959 frightened by that idea. You know. They they like a 3:20:41.040 --> 3:20:44.840 society in which the right people with who went to 3:20:44.879 --> 3:20:48.560 the right schools and all of that, like where they 3:20:48.560 --> 3:20:50.160 are the ones that are in charge and they are 3:20:50.160 --> 3:20:53.600 the ones that are shaping history with the pen strokes 3:20:53.840 --> 3:20:58.160 on like, you know, whatever bills they're legislating, and yeah, 3:20:58.200 --> 3:21:01.640 I think they have a vested interest in making sure 3:21:01.800 --> 3:21:06.560 that workers don't get to experience that sense of autonomy 3:21:07.120 --> 3:21:10.800 that they can experience by going on strike and by seeing, 3:21:11.480 --> 3:21:14.080 you know, exactly what kind of power they have and 3:21:14.120 --> 3:21:16.760 what it does, because they don't want it. They don't 3:21:16.760 --> 3:21:19.440 want it to get beyond what's going on in the workplace. 3:21:19.440 --> 3:21:24.280 They barely want it there, you know. Like so yeah, yeah, 3:21:24.320 --> 3:21:28.119 I think there is a vested interest. And yeah, I 3:21:28.240 --> 3:21:30.800 have not been able to see it confirmed, but I 3:21:30.840 --> 3:21:35.840 have seen in articles where they will say that, you know, 3:21:35.920 --> 3:21:38.440 Sean O'Brien had met with President Biden, but then there 3:21:38.480 --> 3:21:41.080 isn't a link click through, so I can't figure out 3:21:41.120 --> 3:21:44.360 what the initial thing is. But I'm not surprised. I'm 3:21:44.400 --> 3:21:49.680 not surprised, Like, and it's it's a it's a damn shame. 3:21:49.879 --> 3:21:53.080 It's you know, it's a shame that the president of 3:21:53.120 --> 3:21:56.680 our local union, you know, should that have happened succumb 3:21:56.720 --> 3:21:57.680 to it, right. 3:21:57.720 --> 3:21:59.320 Yeah, that's the thing. Whe's like, it's been really hard 3:21:59.320 --> 3:22:01.520 to get reliable information on. It's also possible they were 3:22:01.560 --> 3:22:03.240 sort of behind the scenes talks that we just don't 3:22:03.280 --> 3:22:06.200 know about. But you know, the place we know this 3:22:06.240 --> 3:22:08.279 happened is we know this happened between the rail strikes, 3:22:08.320 --> 3:22:11.400 right there was a lot of pressure from rail unions 3:22:12.040 --> 3:22:15.520 to like like on on their rank and file to 3:22:15.680 --> 3:22:17.720 like get to just like sign on to some kind 3:22:17.760 --> 3:22:21.480 of agreement. And I think I think this is something 3:22:21.520 --> 3:22:24.680 that you know, in terms of sort of political repression, 3:22:24.920 --> 3:22:28.680 Like it's something that's not understood in the same way, 3:22:29.400 --> 3:22:33.000 but like that is also still like that, Like that 3:22:33.000 --> 3:22:36.640 that like negotiating behind the scenes and putting pressure on 3:22:36.680 --> 3:22:39.400 and then you know, eventually Biden does just actively like 3:22:40.360 --> 3:22:42.920 mandate that the strike can't happen, right, Like that is 3:22:43.600 --> 3:22:46.000 like that I I I will argue that that is 3:22:46.040 --> 3:22:47.560 in fact a full of strike breaking. 3:22:48.280 --> 3:22:49.640 Mm hmm, I agree. 3:22:49.760 --> 3:22:52.680 And I think I think people are tend to be less. 3:22:52.840 --> 3:22:56.000 But but you know, specifically, the ability to sort of 3:22:56.080 --> 3:22:59.600 cut deals with unions like this is something that the 3:22:59.680 --> 3:23:02.600 republic Bloks have a like aren't like really good at 3:23:03.080 --> 3:23:05.280 Like it's not it's not an ability that they really have. 3:23:05.320 --> 3:23:08.720 It's it's something that like is largely limited to the Democrats. 3:23:09.240 --> 3:23:11.080 And but you know, but this this means that they 3:23:11.080 --> 3:23:14.520 have sort of they have a unique capacity to repress 3:23:14.520 --> 3:23:19.440 social movements that isn't as obvious as sort of like 3:23:19.600 --> 3:23:22.720 you know, just like a bunch of strike breakers showing 3:23:22.800 --> 3:23:25.800 up or the cop showing up, But is there all 3:23:25.840 --> 3:23:27.960 the same and I think is in some ways more 3:23:28.040 --> 3:23:31.200 dangerous because you know, like you get these arguments with 3:23:31.280 --> 3:23:34.920 like with the rail strike, where like technically eventually Biden 3:23:35.040 --> 3:23:37.280 was able to get some kind of deal through for 3:23:37.640 --> 3:23:41.440 some sick time, right, but you know, and you have 3:23:41.560 --> 3:23:44.440 you have this sort of like liberal conception of what 3:23:44.959 --> 3:23:48.280 labor is where they're like, oh, well, everyone was wrong 3:23:48.360 --> 3:23:50.480 to like be mad at Biden for this, like they 3:23:50.520 --> 3:23:55.320 got the thing eventually. But you know, the problem here 3:23:55.560 --> 3:23:59.360 isn't it isn't just you know, strikes aren't just about 3:23:59.720 --> 3:24:02.400 the immediate thing that you're fighting for, right, Like they're 3:24:02.480 --> 3:24:05.720 they're also about like moving the class as a whole. 3:24:05.720 --> 3:24:07.800 They're about the experience of striking. They're about i mean, 3:24:07.800 --> 3:24:09.080 you know, and they're also about the fact that you 3:24:09.160 --> 3:24:11.360 will get a better deal if you win a strike. 3:24:11.840 --> 3:24:15.160 Then you will if you get like you know, if 3:24:15.200 --> 3:24:17.760 if you get one of these sort of like negotiated 3:24:17.800 --> 3:24:20.480 deals like cut in the back room by Biden and 3:24:20.600 --> 3:24:25.560 like seventeen unions in the Manufacturer's Association, and so I think, 3:24:25.600 --> 3:24:30.120 I think, I think it's important to understand that, you know, 3:24:31.640 --> 3:24:36.160 the like there is a fundamental sort of difference between 3:24:37.760 --> 3:24:41.280 like liberalism sort of conception of you know, you you 3:24:41.360 --> 3:24:43.920 achieve material gains and it doesn't really matter what the 3:24:43.959 --> 3:24:47.320 process is, right or you know, the process is like 3:24:47.560 --> 3:24:50.840 you go through the legislative domain. There's an actual difference 3:24:50.840 --> 3:24:54.240 between that and the things that happens Drae to strike, 3:24:54.320 --> 3:24:57.000 which is, you know, there's there's an actual process of 3:24:57.040 --> 3:24:59.440 like the building of power of workers and you know, 3:24:59.440 --> 3:25:03.480 building the economy of the class itself. And I don't know, 3:25:03.480 --> 3:25:04.920 I think I think those are very different. And I 3:25:04.959 --> 3:25:07.880 think I think a lot of what we've been seeing 3:25:07.959 --> 3:25:13.080 here is an attempt both by unions themselves, by and 3:25:13.200 --> 3:25:16.360 you know, by by business leaders and also buy like 3:25:16.480 --> 3:25:18.480 the president and the Democratic Party to try to make 3:25:18.520 --> 3:25:20.160 sure that this doesn't happen and that they can sort 3:25:20.200 --> 3:25:27.360 of contain this really explosive labor moments and prevent it 3:25:27.400 --> 3:25:29.119 from sort of turning into anything more. 3:25:30.160 --> 3:25:33.800 Yeah, I think that's very true. I think that you know, 3:25:34.600 --> 3:25:39.400 the unions, you know, have long been divorced from their 3:25:39.480 --> 3:25:42.800 original roots. As like, you know, this was a communist 3:25:42.879 --> 3:25:46.120 social This sprung out of communism, socialism, anarchism. It was 3:25:46.160 --> 3:25:50.640 about workers banding together to not only collectively bargain just 3:25:50.680 --> 3:25:53.680 for the workplaces, but for society wide issues. 3:25:53.760 --> 3:25:53.920 Right. 3:25:54.040 --> 3:25:59.000 Unions used to be explicitly political, and I you know, 3:25:59.120 --> 3:26:02.400 as we've like seen this rise in political conscience, you 3:26:02.440 --> 3:26:07.240 know over like this last decade. The ruling class and 3:26:07.640 --> 3:26:11.800 you know, the entrenched union bureaucrats that have long been 3:26:12.080 --> 3:26:15.080 you know, divorced from those origins, I think have a 3:26:15.200 --> 3:26:22.640 very vested interest and you know, not having labor go 3:26:22.879 --> 3:26:26.560 back to those roots to and stuff like that, you know, 3:26:26.600 --> 3:26:29.920 it threatens it obviously threatens the working or the ruling 3:26:29.920 --> 3:26:32.720 class power, excuse me. And you know it threatens your 3:26:32.959 --> 3:26:38.360 union bureaucrat jobs when workers start like demanding more from 3:26:38.480 --> 3:26:41.160 like what the labor movement can provide for them. 3:26:41.520 --> 3:26:41.720 Right. 3:26:42.680 --> 3:26:46.000 So I think that's all, that's all very true, And 3:26:46.120 --> 3:26:49.720 it's just that this is another avenue where collective change 3:26:49.760 --> 3:26:52.960 is possible, and the state and capital will always clamp 3:26:53.000 --> 3:26:57.680 down on any avenue where change can be achieved through 3:26:57.680 --> 3:27:01.920 those means. So I think that's really really what we're 3:27:01.920 --> 3:27:02.600 seeing here. 3:27:03.280 --> 3:27:05.440 Yeah, And I don't know, I mean, I think I 3:27:05.520 --> 3:27:09.840 think another thing that's worth pointing out is that like 3:27:10.320 --> 3:27:14.199 part of the reason that, like part of the reason 3:27:14.400 --> 3:27:16.000 that you know, if you if you go back to 3:27:16.040 --> 3:27:17.680 sort of like when when the error of the sort 3:27:17.680 --> 3:27:20.840 of decline of unionism happened, right, like, part part of 3:27:20.879 --> 3:27:25.280 the reason why the Reagan era repression worked was that 3:27:25.440 --> 3:27:27.640 a lot of these unions had already sort of hollowed 3:27:27.680 --> 3:27:30.560 out the radical core of like what had been their 3:27:30.640 --> 3:27:33.320 union organizers. They had purged, you know, like the the CIO, 3:27:33.520 --> 3:27:36.160 I mean even back as there's always like the forties, 3:27:36.800 --> 3:27:39.760 like the CIO purged like all of its leftist members, 3:27:41.520 --> 3:27:45.560 and you know, you got these successive like these these 3:27:45.560 --> 3:27:48.320 successive sort of iterations of unionism that were less and 3:27:48.360 --> 3:27:51.520 less militant, and you know, like you can you can 3:27:51.560 --> 3:27:53.879 you can literally see what the result of that has been, 3:27:54.080 --> 3:27:57.760 right like union density down to like six percent. And 3:27:57.840 --> 3:28:00.760 so you know, if if, if if it keeps going 3:28:00.800 --> 3:28:02.720 like this and we keep getting these sort of like 3:28:03.400 --> 3:28:06.560 sustained efforts to make sure that it never redevelops again, 3:28:06.680 --> 3:28:10.520 Like yeah, like it's we're gonna we're gonna be stuck there. 3:28:11.280 --> 3:28:13.240 Yeah, I mean it's just yeah, I mean specific to 3:28:13.280 --> 3:28:16.840 those ups contracts. Can absolutely see that, you know, by 3:28:16.879 --> 3:28:19.680 looking at the wage growth you know, through the last 3:28:19.720 --> 3:28:23.520 forty years, or maybe the lack thereof more of the 3:28:23.600 --> 3:28:28.240 stagnating wages just you know, between either you know, union 3:28:28.280 --> 3:28:31.199 officials or you know, even in the you know, Biden 3:28:31.280 --> 3:28:33.320 coming in. I think it's like, you know, more or 3:28:33.400 --> 3:28:36.960 less like these people who aren't going you know, who 3:28:37.000 --> 3:28:41.920 didn't enter the economy, uh, you know within the last 3:28:42.200 --> 3:28:45.760 you know, decade or two. You know, I don't know 3:28:46.400 --> 3:28:49.560 at all really what what our experiences are, you know, 3:28:49.600 --> 3:28:53.200 what kind of challenges and struggles and burdens we're facing, 3:28:55.360 --> 3:28:58.240 and I mean especially and not prepared at all for 3:28:59.320 --> 3:29:01.920 you know, just world with a drastically changing climate. 3:29:03.280 --> 3:29:03.640 Yeah. 3:29:03.760 --> 3:29:04.000 Yeah. 3:29:04.040 --> 3:29:06.520 And then like you know, also to go back to 3:29:06.680 --> 3:29:09.520 like you know, the decline of you know, how unions 3:29:09.520 --> 3:29:15.080 have operated you know, over these last like for some decades. 3:29:15.240 --> 3:29:15.440 Right. 3:29:15.600 --> 3:29:17.520 I think this is something I talked about a lot, 3:29:17.560 --> 3:29:19.640 and I talked about it, I think on the last podcast. 3:29:20.120 --> 3:29:24.280 But you know, once the the organized left was kind 3:29:24.280 --> 3:29:26.280 of purged out of all of these unions, you know, 3:29:26.440 --> 3:29:30.360 unions kind of became about a service model, and you know, 3:29:30.400 --> 3:29:34.880 that's when the union leadership you know, does you know, 3:29:35.040 --> 3:29:37.840 like you on the floor are enforcing your contract. You're 3:29:37.840 --> 3:29:40.240 bringing your grievances to the union, and the union is 3:29:40.240 --> 3:29:44.120 getting something done about them, right. And I think you know, 3:29:44.160 --> 3:29:48.760 that model in and of itself is indicative of a 3:29:48.840 --> 3:29:53.760 decline of a collective action, right. That reduces the union 3:29:53.879 --> 3:29:56.480 to Yeah, that's the entity you're going you go to 3:29:56.879 --> 3:29:59.160 when there is an issue in the enforcement of your 3:29:59.200 --> 3:30:03.120 contract and they negotiate a new contract for you, and 3:30:03.480 --> 3:30:06.040 you know, that's that's the service model type, right, And 3:30:06.080 --> 3:30:08.000 that's like what we're seeing a lot of. That's what like, 3:30:08.040 --> 3:30:10.120 you know, a lot of the business unions do and 3:30:10.160 --> 3:30:13.279 stuff like that. Some of them do it better than others, 3:30:14.480 --> 3:30:17.800 you know. But then there's also the organizing model, where 3:30:18.040 --> 3:30:21.279 you use the union as it means to make your 3:30:21.520 --> 3:30:25.840 members militant, and they do contract enforcement on the floor, 3:30:25.959 --> 3:30:30.480 and they like you know, organize protests at their work site, 3:30:30.600 --> 3:30:33.000 and they like you know, they get involved in you know, 3:30:33.080 --> 3:30:37.680 issues outside of the work site, right, And I think, yeah, 3:30:37.760 --> 3:30:41.440 like watching the service model kind of prevail over these 3:30:41.520 --> 3:30:44.600 last you know, some decades over. The organizing model is 3:30:45.320 --> 3:30:50.680 just yeah, it's absolutely just another sign of collective action 3:30:50.920 --> 3:30:53.320 being stamped down wherever it can be. 3:30:54.200 --> 3:30:56.880 You know, there's this an interesting thing with the there's 3:30:56.879 --> 3:30:58.640 an interesting thing with the service model that I see 3:30:58.640 --> 3:31:00.680 a lot where it's like, you know, when when when 3:31:00.760 --> 3:31:05.360 when you're getting like sort of union inoculation, uh like stuff, right, 3:31:05.360 --> 3:31:08.000 they'll be like, ah, I like the management is going 3:31:08.040 --> 3:31:09.800 to tell you that like the union is an outside 3:31:09.800 --> 3:31:10.480 force and it's not. 3:31:10.560 --> 3:31:11.480 The union is actually you. 3:31:11.560 --> 3:31:14.600 And it's like this is true. But also like, damn, 3:31:14.600 --> 3:31:17.480 I wonder where the idea that the union is an 3:31:17.480 --> 3:31:20.160 outside force it is not actually you came from, Like 3:31:20.600 --> 3:31:23.879 it couldn't you know, It's it's like it could it 3:31:23.920 --> 3:31:26.160 couldn't possibly have anything to do with the way you 3:31:26.240 --> 3:31:29.000 run your union, Like okay. 3:31:28.920 --> 3:31:32.760 Yeah, absolutely, absolutely, Yeah. 3:31:32.760 --> 3:31:34.680 I think we were talking about that last time, like 3:31:34.760 --> 3:31:37.959 the kind of like the lack of onboarding engagement by 3:31:38.000 --> 3:31:42.880 the union. Yeah, I mean especially yeah, I mean yeah, 3:31:43.160 --> 3:31:46.640 I mean I know this. I mean other union members too, 3:31:46.640 --> 3:31:48.880 where like does kind of feel like they're like, oh, 3:31:48.959 --> 3:31:51.600 I don't have all these benefits or higher pay or 3:31:52.160 --> 3:31:53.800 or you know, we're thinking about striking, but we don't 3:31:53.800 --> 3:31:56.440 even have a strike bund. You know, we don't know 3:31:56.480 --> 3:32:01.120 how exactly well whether the storm. I mean that's something 3:32:01.160 --> 3:32:04.440 I hear you know a lot on the shop floor. 3:32:04.440 --> 3:32:09.039 It's like when talking about, you know, our union, you know, 3:32:09.080 --> 3:32:11.360 it's it's always the union. I know I say that 3:32:11.440 --> 3:32:13.640 a ton too, but I mean I kind of feel 3:32:13.640 --> 3:32:16.120 like the language we just use like day to day 3:32:16.120 --> 3:32:19.480 talking about it, you know, I kind of there's not 3:32:19.600 --> 3:32:23.119 like inherent separation when it's like, oh, it's the union, 3:32:23.120 --> 3:32:25.160 it's the some you know, it's this outside thing. It's 3:32:25.200 --> 3:32:28.080 not oh, it's a collection of all you know, rank 3:32:28.120 --> 3:32:32.720 and file members. It's us really yeah, and it doesn't. 3:32:33.000 --> 3:32:35.480 The thing is, yeah, it doesn't become that unless you 3:32:35.600 --> 3:32:40.320 have a really high level of participation and then also 3:32:41.120 --> 3:32:44.000 like a systemic effort to make sure that to make 3:32:44.000 --> 3:32:47.640 sure everyone's involved and to make sure that you know, 3:32:47.720 --> 3:32:50.320 the the union functions in such a way that even 3:32:50.320 --> 3:32:55.480 that that like you know that that decisions, membership action matters. 3:32:55.520 --> 3:32:59.039 And I don't know, I think I think I think 3:32:59.040 --> 3:33:04.680 it's really I think it's really easy to you know, 3:33:04.800 --> 3:33:07.640 in this moment where unions are incredibly like you know, 3:33:07.640 --> 3:33:10.240 with the totally the actual amount of like unions in 3:33:10.240 --> 3:33:16.640 the US is really small. And also simultaneously, like you know, 3:33:16.800 --> 3:33:19.400 we're seeing a sort of resurgence of union organizing. I 3:33:19.440 --> 3:33:21.480 think it's really really easy to sort of fall into 3:33:21.560 --> 3:33:27.120 this trap and like be be completely uncritical of the 3:33:27.160 --> 3:33:30.680 way that unions have functioned, because again, like if the 3:33:30.720 --> 3:33:35.160 current model of unions that exists right now, like if 3:33:35.160 --> 3:33:39.360 that stuff worked, like we wouldn't be in in in 3:33:39.480 --> 3:33:42.800 the sort of conditions that we're in now. And that 3:33:43.080 --> 3:33:46.120 calls for you know, like that that that calls for 3:33:46.200 --> 3:33:48.879 collective action, and you know one of the things that 3:33:48.920 --> 3:33:51.440 calls for is being willing to go on strike. 3:33:52.520 --> 3:33:54.680 Yeah, absolutely, Yeah. 3:33:54.760 --> 3:33:57.400 Do you have anything else that you wanted to add? 3:33:58.400 --> 3:34:01.800 Yeah, no, because like something that you know, when I 3:34:01.800 --> 3:34:05.400 think about, like, you know, how do we get back 3:34:05.440 --> 3:34:08.720 to like this sort of you know where a union is. 3:34:08.800 --> 3:34:10.640 You know, we are the union. A union is a 3:34:11.080 --> 3:34:15.040 like is a collective of workers advocating for their rights. 3:34:15.120 --> 3:34:19.720 Right they are banding together, you know, they're negotiating together. 3:34:20.080 --> 3:34:23.959 And when I think about you know, the teamsters, you know, 3:34:24.000 --> 3:34:26.800 and how they operate right now, and you know, we 3:34:26.920 --> 3:34:30.640 just had that big reform slate when where Seawn O'Brien 3:34:30.680 --> 3:34:32.959 won and then you know, delivered us this contract. And 3:34:33.000 --> 3:34:35.480 you know, Shaun O'Brien did do like they they did 3:34:35.680 --> 3:34:37.920 in TDU, did do other good things. They got rid 3:34:37.920 --> 3:34:44.879 of that constitutional rule that Oliver mentioned earlier. But I think, 3:34:45.080 --> 3:34:47.760 you know, when we talk about like bringing down that 3:34:47.879 --> 3:34:50.800 barrier between the union and the members, the next most 3:34:50.840 --> 3:34:53.760 obvious step for me is that we need to get 3:34:53.800 --> 3:34:58.280 to open bargaining in this union. And frankly, I think 3:34:58.400 --> 3:35:02.240 open bargaining, or the fact that this bargaining was closed, 3:35:02.280 --> 3:35:05.160 you know, is behind it's behind closed doors. You know, 3:35:05.240 --> 3:35:09.800 there were NDAs signed, there were rank and file members there, 3:35:10.040 --> 3:35:12.240 but they also couldn't tell us about it because of 3:35:12.240 --> 3:35:17.120 those you know NDAs. Open bargaining is what's going to 3:35:17.760 --> 3:35:22.120 solve this because this, like the whole fiasco about this 3:35:22.240 --> 3:35:27.560 tentative agreement and now all the kind of resulting hostility 3:35:27.640 --> 3:35:31.200 that is felt between members and leadership and members and 3:35:31.240 --> 3:35:35.480 even other members. I think it's you know, like so 3:35:35.640 --> 3:35:38.519 much of this is due to a failure of comms 3:35:38.600 --> 3:35:41.920 and the fact that we did not know what was 3:35:41.959 --> 3:35:46.680 being discussed in this in these negotiations at any time 3:35:46.840 --> 3:35:50.680 except for the vague highlights that they could tell us about, right, 3:35:51.400 --> 3:35:54.039 and then you know, they release a highlight reel that 3:35:54.280 --> 3:35:58.280 has very confusing language. They eventually do release the contract, 3:35:58.320 --> 3:36:01.440 but not all of the memorandum of understanding that would 3:36:01.440 --> 3:36:05.680 help us understand what is actually in that contract. And 3:36:06.680 --> 3:36:10.120 you know, they they're releasing all of this information in 3:36:10.160 --> 3:36:13.120 a way that is going to result in people not 3:36:13.320 --> 3:36:18.400 understanding what's in it. And I really do think open 3:36:18.440 --> 3:36:22.240 bargaining is the next step that you know, reformers in 3:36:22.320 --> 3:36:28.240 this union need to be advocating and organizing for because 3:36:28.840 --> 3:36:30.920 this has just kind of been a real shit show, 3:36:32.360 --> 3:36:35.400 to be honest, and I yeah, I think it's a 3:36:35.400 --> 3:36:38.000 Comms failure to be perfectly honest. 3:36:38.440 --> 3:36:42.039 So yeah, yeah, and I would I would absolutely agree 3:36:42.040 --> 3:36:44.840 with that, you know, and I know, like there was 3:36:45.200 --> 3:36:49.800 there was a IBT webinar with Sean O'Brien, and you know, 3:36:49.840 --> 3:36:54.080 he even spoke to misinformation, but didn't you know, elaborate 3:36:54.240 --> 3:36:58.080 on what it was or you know, how or why 3:36:58.640 --> 3:37:03.320 it's wrong, And it's just like, hey, you got our emails, addresses, 3:37:03.560 --> 3:37:06.879 phone numbers, We're here on this webinar, Like you can 3:37:06.879 --> 3:37:11.039 correct the record anytime, you know, it's uh, if you're 3:37:11.080 --> 3:37:15.320 worried about something that's not true and may may or 3:37:15.400 --> 3:37:18.600 may not influence people's votes, like you can do something 3:37:18.640 --> 3:37:21.760 about that, Like you you have a lot of money, 3:37:22.200 --> 3:37:25.200 you have you know, a comms team to use it. 3:37:26.080 --> 3:37:30.160 It's you know, just talk to your members like they're 3:37:30.400 --> 3:37:35.280 real people. Uh, you know we can we can understand shit. Uh, 3:37:35.440 --> 3:37:39.760 you don't got to just you know, get get angry 3:37:39.879 --> 3:37:42.040 or even kind of like I was saying earlier, where 3:37:42.040 --> 3:37:44.240 it's just like it's almost just like feels like this 3:37:44.440 --> 3:37:48.879 framing where anything you know that's a dissenting view or 3:37:48.920 --> 3:37:52.480 a critique you know, so oh, it's just it's almost information. 3:37:52.680 --> 3:37:54.520 Don't don't pay any attention to it. 3:37:55.200 --> 3:37:57.320 Yeah, which is you know, I don't know, like I 3:37:57.480 --> 3:37:59.680 I've seen this in a couple of. 3:38:01.120 --> 3:38:02.320 I don't know, like. 3:38:03.800 --> 3:38:05.520 I've seen this in a couple of sort of union 3:38:05.520 --> 3:38:06.760 things we've coverled on this show. 3:38:06.920 --> 3:38:07.280 Is like. 3:38:09.040 --> 3:38:12.920 I don't know, And and an incredible unwillingness of union 3:38:13.000 --> 3:38:15.040 leadership to even like consider a position as not their 3:38:15.080 --> 3:38:17.680 own and to just sort of like immediately, you know, 3:38:17.959 --> 3:38:20.560 when confronted with another things just immediately attempt to completely 3:38:20.640 --> 3:38:27.800 delegitimate them and that sucks. Yeah, it's just not a 3:38:28.920 --> 3:38:30.560 not a great way to run a union. 3:38:31.360 --> 3:38:34.280 No, No, you definitely, you know, and I've been seeing 3:38:34.280 --> 3:38:39.360 this this uh, this closing like sort of rank around 3:38:39.680 --> 3:38:45.640 around leadership, right, and it's not something that inspires trust 3:38:45.920 --> 3:38:50.039 in union leadership whatsoever. Right, Like, you know, you could 3:38:50.080 --> 3:38:53.959 be a member that you know doesn't understand something, just 3:38:54.000 --> 3:38:57.280 has a question and then you kind of getting and 3:38:57.400 --> 3:39:01.240 you kind of just end up being stonewalled, and you know, 3:39:01.280 --> 3:39:03.440 you're told, well, you know, go to this meeting where 3:39:03.440 --> 3:39:05.480 we're going to explain things, and dah da da da 3:39:05.520 --> 3:39:07.360 da da da da da. And it's like, yeah, but 3:39:07.400 --> 3:39:09.760 you know, I have you on the phone, now, can 3:39:09.800 --> 3:39:13.680 you explain it now? And you know, and it's as 3:39:13.760 --> 3:39:18.120 it's like they're taking all of these concerns as a 3:39:18.200 --> 3:39:22.160 personal blow to their ego, right, Like they're taking it 3:39:22.240 --> 3:39:26.200 personally as if people having concerns about what this contract 3:39:26.680 --> 3:39:29.200 does and does not stipulate is like an attack on 3:39:29.240 --> 3:39:35.360 their moral character. And it's just really fucking frustrating. I 3:39:35.959 --> 3:39:39.240 gotta be real with you. And you know it doesn't 3:39:39.280 --> 3:39:41.720 say a lot for the overall democratic nature of the 3:39:41.879 --> 3:39:46.800 union either, right, Like, you know, this is like, you know, 3:39:46.840 --> 3:39:49.200 you're kind of being told, well, you know, keep your 3:39:49.240 --> 3:39:52.280 opinions to yourself, accept our word for it. Like you 3:39:52.320 --> 3:39:54.560 can vote however you want. You know, this is one member, 3:39:54.640 --> 3:39:57.720 one vote. But you know you can't be going online 3:39:57.760 --> 3:40:00.920 talking about it. You like can't be going talking to 3:40:00.920 --> 3:40:03.320 your coworkers about it because you don't have all the information. 3:40:03.440 --> 3:40:09.279 You're not understanding it correctly, and it's just like, well, 3:40:09.320 --> 3:40:13.879 can you get better at explaining it? Can you not 3:40:14.120 --> 3:40:18.160 react this way? Like can we have like a thing 3:40:18.240 --> 3:40:22.000 where like we can just like fucking talk about what's 3:40:22.040 --> 3:40:25.680 in it and what's not in it? And yeah, it's 3:40:25.720 --> 3:40:28.480 it's just again been real fucking frustrating. 3:40:29.720 --> 3:40:29.879 Yeah. 3:40:29.920 --> 3:40:32.520 It's another thing I mean too, is you know, any 3:40:32.520 --> 3:40:35.680 contract language maybe it should either be more clear or concise, 3:40:35.959 --> 3:40:37.760 or if it's going to be more on the legal 3:40:37.800 --> 3:40:41.560 east side, you know, put out a little like contract 3:40:42.080 --> 3:40:47.440 like explainer guide maybe especially around key language or language 3:40:47.440 --> 3:40:49.360 that they know is maybe vague or going to cause 3:40:49.640 --> 3:40:59.000 you know, issues of like understanding it. And even you know, 3:40:59.080 --> 3:41:02.199 one one other thing about like you know, open bargaining, 3:41:03.000 --> 3:41:06.879 was you know, looking at the IBT press release, you 3:41:06.920 --> 3:41:09.840 know there's one paragraph and it starts rank and file 3:41:09.879 --> 3:41:13.600 members served on the committee for the first time. It 3:41:13.920 --> 3:41:16.879 continues on later saying, you know, our hard work has 3:41:16.920 --> 3:41:20.200 finally paid or our hard work has paid off, and 3:41:20.240 --> 3:41:24.240 I you know, and goes on to then say, you know, 3:41:24.360 --> 3:41:28.200 this is the most historic contract we've ever had. So 3:41:28.240 --> 3:41:30.240 it kind of seems like right there where it's like, well, 3:41:30.360 --> 3:41:34.560 if limited member participation found by NDA has led to 3:41:34.600 --> 3:41:38.000 this historic contract, maybe it's time to involve all of us. 3:41:39.120 --> 3:41:39.320 Yeah. 3:41:40.680 --> 3:41:42.520 And also, you know, the rank and file that are 3:41:42.520 --> 3:41:46.680 on these committees are appointed by leadership, so we don't 3:41:46.760 --> 3:41:50.160 we don't get to choose who these people are. And 3:41:51.360 --> 3:41:54.720 it's like leadership absolutely just has the ability to be like, well, 3:41:54.760 --> 3:41:58.760 I'm gonna, you know, appoint the ones that I like 3:41:58.800 --> 3:42:00.640 the most, that I have the best really relationship with 3:42:00.959 --> 3:42:04.840 that I know thinks the sun kind of shines out 3:42:04.840 --> 3:42:10.359 of my ass. And yeah, there's just this absolutely overall 3:42:10.680 --> 3:42:18.359 lack of a democratic lack of a democratic internal culture. 3:42:18.480 --> 3:42:24.320 You know, we elect you know, our officers, most of them, 3:42:25.160 --> 3:42:28.120 but we don't elect stewards. We don't really we don't 3:42:28.120 --> 3:42:31.480 elect our business agents or like anything like that. We 3:42:31.560 --> 3:42:34.160 vote on our contracts and that's it, you know at 3:42:34.160 --> 3:42:37.600 our union meetings. I've had one union meeting where we 3:42:37.680 --> 3:42:41.879 did a vote that was introduced by leadership. Right, It's 3:42:41.959 --> 3:42:46.760 just it's yeah, it's not the most democratic culture. And 3:42:46.800 --> 3:42:49.240 that's another thing that needs to that needs to change 3:42:49.240 --> 3:42:49.680 as well. 3:42:50.959 --> 3:42:52.240 Yeah, and I mean I think that goes back to 3:42:52.320 --> 3:42:56.800 a sort of like, you know, a fundamental political conflict, 3:42:56.920 --> 3:43:00.800 which is like, is democracy when you've for someone else 3:43:00.840 --> 3:43:03.520 to make every decision? Or is democracy when people collectively 3:43:03.560 --> 3:43:08.440 make decisions themselves? And the sort of slipperyess of those 3:43:08.480 --> 3:43:12.520 two things causes you know, like causes you know, allows 3:43:12.560 --> 3:43:15.280 people who essentially want to be the only ones who 3:43:15.280 --> 3:43:17.120 ever get to make decisions to be able to claim 3:43:17.120 --> 3:43:22.000 that they are in favor of democracy or whatever. But 3:43:22.240 --> 3:43:24.520 you know mean like mean that they get to make 3:43:24.520 --> 3:43:28.119 all decisions after they get elected, and not mean actual 3:43:28.120 --> 3:43:30.680 people sort of make decisions for themselves. 3:43:32.520 --> 3:43:36.680 Yeah. Yeah, like we need a you know more so 3:43:36.760 --> 3:43:39.320 only serves it's more of a delegate role than ah, 3:43:39.800 --> 3:43:40.960 you know, representative. 3:43:41.840 --> 3:43:44.120 Okay, I guess I guess my my final thing is 3:43:44.320 --> 3:43:47.920 I yeah, you two are both encouraging are going to 3:43:48.000 --> 3:43:53.720 encourage people to vote no on this contract for the 3:43:53.959 --> 3:43:59.840 the the the surely long list of both technical, procedural, 3:44:00.520 --> 3:44:04.960 I material and like broadly social reasons. 3:44:08.280 --> 3:44:12.760 Yeah, it's correct, I'll be Yeah, I'll be voting no 3:44:12.879 --> 3:44:17.960 and also advocating for that, and also I mean just 3:44:18.280 --> 3:44:20.720 also advocating people to vote as well. 3:44:22.320 --> 3:44:31.320 Yes, big same on that low low union participation sends 3:44:31.320 --> 3:44:35.000 a bad message to the company. So definitely definitely doing 3:44:35.040 --> 3:44:40.320 both and continuing to have those conversations on the shop 3:44:40.360 --> 3:44:43.560 floors with folks explaining my concerns and stuff like that. 3:44:44.120 --> 3:44:46.680 But yeah, no, I'm I'm also going to be voting 3:44:46.760 --> 3:44:48.600 no on this contract as well. 3:44:51.959 --> 3:44:57.000 Yeah, so that is Yeah, I guess I guess that 3:44:57.000 --> 3:44:59.600 that that that is our coverage of this. There is 3:44:59.640 --> 3:45:03.280 still time for there is still time for there to 3:45:03.360 --> 3:45:05.320 actually be a striker, for this contract to fail and 3:45:05.360 --> 3:45:08.360 for people to fight for a better one. And yeah, 3:45:08.600 --> 3:45:11.640 I wish both of you too good luck in fighting 3:45:11.680 --> 3:45:16.000 this and yeah, and thank you both for coming on. 3:45:16.879 --> 3:45:18.879 Yeah, yeah, thanks so much for having us. I was 3:45:18.920 --> 3:45:22.280 excited to give you guys an update about all the 3:45:22.280 --> 3:45:24.400 crazy shit we talked about in the first episode. 3:45:24.640 --> 3:45:27.160 Yeah, I'm glad, glad, glad I got to talk about it. 3:45:27.160 --> 3:45:30.080 That's a pleasure. Of being on and yeah, I appreciate 3:45:30.120 --> 3:45:30.640 the time. 3:45:31.480 --> 3:45:33.879 Yeah, do you do you have anything to plug before? 3:45:35.080 --> 3:45:39.920 You know? Yes or no? Vote solidarity all all workers 3:45:40.120 --> 3:45:43.680 and everyone on the shop floor. And you know we'll 3:45:44.360 --> 3:45:48.640 got to keep on fighting for better conditions. 3:45:49.720 --> 3:45:53.400 Yeah, and you too, dear listener, can fight for better 3:45:53.400 --> 3:45:58.120 conditions in your own workplace. And yeah, one day, one day, 3:45:58.120 --> 3:46:00.360 fight for a world we don't have. Workplace is like 3:46:00.360 --> 3:46:00.840 this at all? 3:46:01.320 --> 3:46:03.040 Amen, hallelujah. 3:46:19.240 --> 3:46:24.120 What foreign my policy? I don't know. I don't know, Guys, 3:46:24.160 --> 3:46:26.640 I don't know. I got like trapped into this like 3:46:27.160 --> 3:46:30.600 pattern of doing introductions a certain way and I don't 3:46:30.640 --> 3:46:33.280 really I don't really feel good about it. But how 3:46:33.280 --> 3:46:36.840 do you how does one break their patterns? Speaking of patterns, 3:46:37.320 --> 3:46:42.520 let's talk about Syria beautiful. 3:46:43.440 --> 3:46:45.640 Yeah, I understand exactly what that meant. 3:46:47.080 --> 3:46:48.959 I feel like one of the basketball guys when someone 3:46:49.040 --> 3:46:50.680 lays him up and then he just does a dunk. 3:46:51.400 --> 3:46:54.680 That's what I feel like. I don't know about. 3:46:54.000 --> 3:46:57.760 Green Bay Packers swish mm hmmm. 3:46:58.120 --> 3:47:03.280 Yeah, go Tom Brady. Okay, uh okay, sports talk aside. 3:47:03.280 --> 3:47:07.480 I'm wearing my Rwanda football shirt today. We we are 3:47:07.520 --> 3:47:13.360 gathered here today to talk about Turkish drone strikes on 3:47:13.400 --> 3:47:14.080 their sts. 3:47:14.200 --> 3:47:16.439 Yeah, not funny, not funny. 3:47:16.480 --> 3:47:20.480 Yeah, the sday funny. We're talking about like Turkish the 3:47:20.560 --> 3:47:26.320 continued Turkish military operations across their border in northeast Syria, 3:47:26.440 --> 3:47:30.200 the area commonly known as Rosjava, and also in southern 3:47:30.240 --> 3:47:31.080 Turkey as well. 3:47:32.320 --> 3:47:32.560 Yeah. 3:47:32.959 --> 3:47:36.960 Yeah, So just to give some some numbers around this 3:47:37.040 --> 3:47:39.400 to start off, right, and you're twenty twenty two, which 3:47:39.440 --> 3:47:43.240 there wasn't a territorial offensive, so like you're not seeing 3:47:43.280 --> 3:47:47.840 like troops on the ground. Turkey carried out one hundred 3:47:47.840 --> 3:47:51.280 and thirty drone strikes in the Autonomous Administration of Northany Syria. Yeah, 3:47:51.280 --> 3:47:55.480 that's the place is more commonly known as Rojhova, and 3:47:56.280 --> 3:48:01.520 they killed at least eight YPJ members. YPJ would be 3:48:01.560 --> 3:48:06.600 the Women's Protection Forces, who are a unit within the 3:48:06.600 --> 3:48:11.920 Syrian Democratic Forces, which is the armed forces of the 3:48:12.280 --> 3:48:16.320 ans Autonomous Area of North Easyria. I will come at 3:48:16.320 --> 3:48:18.840 you really hard with acronyms in this. I think if 3:48:18.879 --> 3:48:22.400 people haven't listened to Roberts series Women's War, maybe the 3:48:22.520 --> 3:48:25.440 Women's War, that would be a good place to start, 3:48:25.760 --> 3:48:27.880 because like we only have half an hour of forty 3:48:27.879 --> 3:48:31.440 five minutes or whatever, and we can't explain an extremely 3:48:31.520 --> 3:48:35.920 complicated conflict which has been going on for twelve years 3:48:35.920 --> 3:48:39.120 in that time. So I think some grounding in who 3:48:39.160 --> 3:48:41.480 is who and what is what you can find it there, 3:48:41.520 --> 3:48:44.680 I guess. But it's that a fair summary of who 3:48:44.760 --> 3:48:45.320 those people are. 3:48:45.400 --> 3:48:49.160 Robert, Yeah, basically, so you had kind of the gist 3:48:49.160 --> 3:48:51.000 of the story is that for a very long time, 3:48:51.120 --> 3:48:55.440 starting in southern Turkey, there's been a Kurdish militant group 3:48:55.560 --> 3:48:58.120 called the PKK. They were way back in the day, 3:48:58.240 --> 3:49:03.120 originally Maoist. They had a bunch of internal power struggles 3:49:03.120 --> 3:49:06.960 within their own organization and then wound up taking a 3:49:07.000 --> 3:49:13.440 pretty uh wide turn away from Maoism towards a kind 3:49:13.440 --> 3:49:15.960 of political theory heavily influenced by the work of an 3:49:15.960 --> 3:49:20.160 American anarchist thinker named Murray Bukchin. This was largely due 3:49:20.160 --> 3:49:23.520 to the fact that their leader, a guy named abdulah Ajalon, 3:49:24.560 --> 3:49:27.040 got while he was in Turkish prison kind of pilled 3:49:27.200 --> 3:49:32.160 on a lot of these this kind of like fringe 3:49:32.160 --> 3:49:39.440 American libertarian ish sort of political philosophy. Yeah, with with this, basically, 3:49:39.480 --> 3:49:43.160 the gist of it is this this kind of this 3:49:43.320 --> 3:49:45.480 kind of synthetic this kind of synthesis of a lot 3:49:45.520 --> 3:49:48.800 of Bukchen's ideas with some of the stuff that Agelog 3:49:48.920 --> 3:49:51.880 had been had been thinking about for years, kind of 3:49:52.360 --> 3:49:59.200 culminated in uh political philosophy called libertarian municipalism, which is 3:49:59.600 --> 3:50:03.600 more less the governing philosophy that these different armed militant 3:50:04.440 --> 3:50:08.840 organizations kind of clustered around the PKK in Northeast Syria, 3:50:08.880 --> 3:50:11.080 because the PKK for years were just kind of like 3:50:11.120 --> 3:50:13.240 cross the border in the northeast Syria when they were 3:50:13.240 --> 3:50:15.080 fighting with the Turks and they had to get away, 3:50:16.000 --> 3:50:18.400 and they had a bunch of inroads with local Kurdish 3:50:18.480 --> 3:50:22.720 organizations in northeast Syria. And when the Asad regime pulled 3:50:22.720 --> 3:50:24.560 out of the area in the early stages of the 3:50:24.560 --> 3:50:27.800 Syrian Civil War, a lot of these groups that were 3:50:27.800 --> 3:50:30.760 affiliated with the p PKK were kind of the best 3:50:30.880 --> 3:50:35.560 organized organizations in the area, and so they took over 3:50:35.640 --> 3:50:39.120 a lot of civil administration and basing a lot of 3:50:39.200 --> 3:50:43.960 their plans and you know, functional activities around these ideas 3:50:43.960 --> 3:50:46.880 that Ajalon had been you know, writing about for years 3:50:46.880 --> 3:50:50.160 and years, and so you kind of have this mix 3:50:50.280 --> 3:50:53.120 of all these armed organizations that are to some extent 3:50:53.200 --> 3:50:57.960 descended from the PKK, but are now much broader than 3:50:58.040 --> 3:51:00.880 just sort of a Kurdish liberatory organization. These are the 3:51:00.880 --> 3:51:06.200 folks who fought and defeated ISIS in northeast Syria. Yeah, 3:51:06.280 --> 3:51:08.720 that's I don't know, there's there's so much to get into, 3:51:08.880 --> 3:51:11.600 but I guess that's kind of the the broad strokes 3:51:11.600 --> 3:51:13.240 and all of these different because there's a bunch of 3:51:13.240 --> 3:51:16.360 different militias. You know, There's there's militias that are kind 3:51:16.400 --> 3:51:20.920 of more traditionalist Arab militias. There's there's Armenian militias in 3:51:20.960 --> 3:51:24.160 the area. There's obviously these Kurdish militias, the YPG and 3:51:24.200 --> 3:51:27.840 the YPG primarily Kurdish militias, but they all fight under 3:51:27.840 --> 3:51:31.640 the banner of the SDF and to the Turks, they're 3:51:31.640 --> 3:51:32.520 all the PKK. 3:51:33.120 --> 3:51:36.480 Yes, I'm glad you mentioned all the different militias and stuff, 3:51:36.480 --> 3:51:39.240 because it gets really confusing. Like even I mean, I'm Syrian, 3:51:39.360 --> 3:51:41.960 I'm just like I cannot keep up. I talked to 3:51:42.000 --> 3:51:44.480 my parents about it too, and they're just like, that's 3:51:44.640 --> 3:51:46.920 it's it's it's complicated. So I think you did a 3:51:46.920 --> 3:51:49.160 good job breaking that down. I also want to mention 3:51:49.200 --> 3:51:52.680 they were the only people fighting ISIS in Syria. Yeah, 3:51:52.800 --> 3:51:55.320 so I think it's pretty notable to mention. 3:51:55.720 --> 3:51:56.360 Yeah. 3:51:56.440 --> 3:51:59.360 Yeah, I got a list of the found in groups 3:51:59.360 --> 3:52:02.160 of the SDA. So this happens in twenty fifteen, right, 3:52:02.960 --> 3:52:06.960 sort of earlier in the fight against ISIS. And some 3:52:07.000 --> 3:52:09.240 of these groups are descended. Latian said, not not from 3:52:09.240 --> 3:52:11.560 the YPJ or the YPG, And Robert said this to 3:52:11.560 --> 3:52:15.200 you that they come from the FSA, the Free Syrian Army, 3:52:15.240 --> 3:52:18.920 Like there's specifically the FSA around the Kabani area contributing elements. 3:52:18.960 --> 3:52:22.000 There's a Syriac Military Council, so that's a distinct ethnic group. 3:52:23.240 --> 3:52:27.600 There is the jayash or al If. I said that right, 3:52:29.600 --> 3:52:31.360 Uh no, but I can say it if you are 3:52:32.520 --> 3:52:35.240 please do magical thank you. 3:52:37.800 --> 3:52:43.120 Jish means army or like yeah, army, yeah jeish. It's 3:52:43.160 --> 3:52:46.160 annoying because the English is spelled jyish, but it's just 3:52:46.200 --> 3:52:46.640 a Jewish. 3:52:47.160 --> 3:52:51.200 Yeah yeah, the revolutionary army, army of revolutionaries, I guess 3:52:51.240 --> 3:52:54.840 more accurately, who are another mixed ethnicity group, they, like 3:52:54.960 --> 3:52:58.840 Robert said, include Turkmen, Armenians, all kinds of different ethnic groups. 3:52:58.880 --> 3:53:01.920 So I get this point that the entity that is 3:53:01.960 --> 3:53:06.480 the SDF is a majority Arab entity. It's not like 3:53:06.520 --> 3:53:12.200 an ethnic Kurdish thing, and and and the autonomous Administration 3:53:12.320 --> 3:53:15.320 is not like a Kurdish f no state, which I 3:53:15.320 --> 3:53:19.800 think is something that people can sometimes either confuse or conflate. 3:53:20.120 --> 3:53:22.000 But like that that's not the case, right that, That's 3:53:22.040 --> 3:53:25.320 not what this sort of democratic federalism is about, nor 3:53:25.400 --> 3:53:27.640 is it what's represented in terms of the composition of 3:53:27.920 --> 3:53:32.360 the people there people doing the fighting, right, So sometimes 3:53:32.400 --> 3:53:34.760 these groups will be referred to on masses like quote 3:53:34.840 --> 3:53:35.800 unquote the Kurds. 3:53:36.240 --> 3:53:38.920 You should by how kind of messy. My explanation was, 3:53:38.960 --> 3:53:41.760 it is hard to walk people through this. Folks eyes 3:53:41.840 --> 3:53:43.880 tend to glaze over, for one thing, when you mention 3:53:44.000 --> 3:53:47.200 a certain number of acronyms. But this leads to a 3:53:47.240 --> 3:53:49.920 situation whereby the US news is just like the Kurds 3:53:49.920 --> 3:53:51.600 defeated isis in Northeast Syria. 3:53:51.680 --> 3:53:53.080 It was like no, there was. 3:53:53.160 --> 3:53:55.120 There were a whole lot of other people who did 3:53:55.120 --> 3:54:00.760 a lot of dying when involved, and some cards who 3:54:00.760 --> 3:54:01.560 were not involved. 3:54:02.120 --> 3:54:04.120 So it's also just so much infighting. I think that 3:54:04.200 --> 3:54:06.400 it gets I don't know, it's it's a lot. 3:54:06.800 --> 3:54:07.080 It is. 3:54:07.160 --> 3:54:10.000 It is a lot like saying the Americans defeated the Nazis, 3:54:10.000 --> 3:54:12.560 and it's like, well some other people. 3:54:12.280 --> 3:54:16.400 Who involved in that word yeah, yeah, well yeah, I've 3:54:16.400 --> 3:54:18.840 seen some films from let me tell you, Yes, I 3:54:18.880 --> 3:54:21.760 think I think Rubedy's right, Like it collapses two things, right, 3:54:21.840 --> 3:54:26.520 like the heterogeneity of of Kettish people, right, Differentkaddish areas, 3:54:26.480 --> 3:54:30.320 of different Kattish movement and the heterogeneity of the SDF. 3:54:30.520 --> 3:54:33.760 So yeah, mainstream use sometimes yeah, because it shocking. 3:54:34.040 --> 3:54:37.680 It is also worth noting like Kurds are not certainly 3:54:37.720 --> 3:54:42.040 not a like a monolithic group. For examining North the 3:54:42.040 --> 3:54:45.760 Assyria is like flat lands lowlands, and there's a big 3:54:45.760 --> 3:54:48.240 difference between the mountain Kurds and the Kurds who live 3:54:48.240 --> 3:54:50.800 in these like lowlands, and traditionally even like a lot 3:54:50.800 --> 3:54:54.280 of like bad blood and stuff between different groups, because 3:54:54.400 --> 3:55:01.480 you know, that's just the way human beings are, Like yeah. 3:55:00.120 --> 3:55:04.680 Yeah, it's really easy, I think for when we're consuming news, 3:55:04.760 --> 3:55:07.240 especially news about the part of the world that the 3:55:08.720 --> 3:55:11.760 populace here hasn't been spectacularly well informed on, to break 3:55:11.800 --> 3:55:14.840 things down into easy groups, right, Like you'll see a 3:55:14.840 --> 3:55:17.240 lot as well, like Sunni and Shias, like the two 3:55:17.280 --> 3:55:21.360 categories that can exist within like and then people get 3:55:21.400 --> 3:55:24.120 very confused when there are categories within that when when 3:55:24.160 --> 3:55:28.360 they're where there are Sunni groups fighting each other, and 3:55:28.440 --> 3:55:32.120 the same with like Kurds, Turkmen or whatever. Like, none 3:55:32.120 --> 3:55:36.080 of these groups are homogeneous. And sometimes yeah, if you do, 3:55:36.160 --> 3:55:37.480 I get it. If you're doing a five minute piece 3:55:37.480 --> 3:55:40.440 for TV, that's what you do. But here we are 3:55:40.480 --> 3:55:43.400 not doing a five minute piece for TV. So this 3:55:43.480 --> 3:55:46.000 is this has not been like Kurdish history one O. One, 3:55:46.000 --> 3:55:48.320 please read some more books about that. I'll put some 3:55:48.400 --> 3:55:51.920 in the sources. But what I want to talk about 3:55:51.960 --> 3:55:57.520 today is some of these barakhtar attacks on specifically YPJ. Right, 3:55:57.560 --> 3:56:00.720 so the YPJ would be the Women's Defense Forces, So 3:56:00.800 --> 3:56:05.520 that's a women's militia within the SDF that, as Robert said, 3:56:05.520 --> 3:56:10.920 it's based heavily, I guess on the outlook of Abdulah Oscelin, 3:56:11.880 --> 3:56:14.680 who's sometimes called Appo, so we might use that for 3:56:14.720 --> 3:56:18.520 brevity here. So in one attack in April twenty twenty two, 3:56:18.840 --> 3:56:23.640 three YPGA fighters were killed. Di Lahaleb, who had participated 3:56:23.640 --> 3:56:26.760 in the resistance of the Sheik Masoud district of Aleppo 3:56:26.800 --> 3:56:29.680 in twenty twelve. She become a leading YPGA commander and 3:56:29.720 --> 3:56:32.400 participated in the fight against isis playing a leading role 3:56:32.400 --> 3:56:35.680 in the liberation of the city of Mimbic Rahani Kabane. 3:56:36.040 --> 3:56:38.720 It's worth noting, I guess sorry I stop every fifteen 3:56:38.760 --> 3:56:41.920 seconds to explain context that you'll hear sometimes place names 3:56:41.920 --> 3:56:44.040 in people's names. That's because they're like norm de gear 3:56:44.400 --> 3:56:47.360 rather than that this is not their legal name necessary, 3:56:47.480 --> 3:56:51.120 but it's it's standard practice for these people to take 3:56:51.520 --> 3:56:54.320 like a movement name or a nom de geer, much 3:56:54.400 --> 3:56:58.600 like Robert and I explained in the episodes on Miamma. 3:56:58.720 --> 3:57:01.040 A lot of people do this, a lot of places 3:57:01.080 --> 3:57:01.600 that fair. 3:57:01.480 --> 3:57:06.240 Robert, Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's a lot of like oftentimes 3:57:06.280 --> 3:57:08.560 people just like take a name based on their city 3:57:08.640 --> 3:57:11.960 that they came from, like Kobani or whatever. But yeah, 3:57:12.040 --> 3:57:14.440 it's it's pretty much the norm that most people, most 3:57:14.520 --> 3:57:17.200 fighters will introduce themselves by some sort of nobdaghear. 3:57:18.080 --> 3:57:21.720 Yeah, even some of the I know people who are 3:57:21.760 --> 3:57:24.080 like British or American who have been over there, who 3:57:24.120 --> 3:57:25.960 are over there, and they also have these. 3:57:26.840 --> 3:57:29.040 Yeah, and there's a there's a lot in that. One 3:57:29.040 --> 3:57:30.560 thing you have to keep in mind is that like 3:57:30.600 --> 3:57:33.160 a lot of these people who are revolutionaries, who consider 3:57:33.200 --> 3:57:37.440 themselves revolutionaries, have family in regime controlled parts of town 3:57:37.600 --> 3:57:40.840 or or parts of Syria or in you know, in 3:57:41.000 --> 3:57:43.560 id Lip, which is largely controlled by these like more 3:57:43.560 --> 3:57:48.480 Turkish backed Islamist groups. And so part of why you 3:57:48.520 --> 3:57:51.040 do this is like, I don't want my family like 3:57:51.120 --> 3:57:53.600 getting caught up in this shit, like if they live 3:57:53.680 --> 3:57:55.280 somewhere else, like I don't want to like bring that 3:57:55.360 --> 3:57:56.760 down on them. It's just safer. 3:57:58.080 --> 3:58:01.040 Yeah, just like when we did episodes, right, we had 3:58:01.280 --> 3:58:05.360 Miaowka and Andy and Sarah. Another woman, as I said, 3:58:05.400 --> 3:58:10.360 Rohani Kabane joined the YPGA in twenty fourteen. She fought 3:58:10.360 --> 3:58:13.800 against ISIS. She was wounded. She participated after recovering in 3:58:13.880 --> 3:58:17.400 the liberation of Rakka, and she was the co chair 3:58:17.400 --> 3:58:20.320 of the defense committee in Kabbani. And then there was 3:58:20.320 --> 3:58:23.400 the youngest, the youngest woman she just joined. I guess 3:58:23.480 --> 3:58:25.840 or her joined at a young age. And she was 3:58:25.880 --> 3:58:31.160 called Kabani and she uh like she joined after the 3:58:31.160 --> 3:58:33.360 fight against ISIS. She she was very young. There are 3:58:33.360 --> 3:58:36.400 pictures I'll include the report. It's very sad to see 3:58:36.440 --> 3:58:37.920 someone I think, so yeah. 3:58:37.720 --> 3:58:40.000 They look they look like there's a couple of them 3:58:40.040 --> 3:58:43.800 that looked like babies. Like, it's really devastating because it's 3:58:44.440 --> 3:58:46.800 I don't know, their lives are taken from them and 3:58:46.840 --> 3:58:48.400 they joined to. 3:58:49.920 --> 3:58:52.280 It's it's empowering, and then. 3:58:52.200 --> 3:58:54.960 It's devastating because it's just like they fought so hard 3:58:54.960 --> 3:58:59.000 and then they they were assassinated, literally they were murdered. 3:59:00.440 --> 3:59:04.560 Yeah, it's when especially when you consider that so many 3:59:04.640 --> 3:59:07.840 of these, like the women who fought against ISIS, right, like, 3:59:08.680 --> 3:59:10.400 and I think we could all probably understand where women 3:59:10.440 --> 3:59:14.400 would would want to do that, like wanted to create 3:59:14.440 --> 3:59:16.200 a place where young girls could grow up and be 3:59:16.240 --> 3:59:18.120 who they wanted to be and do what they wanted 3:59:18.160 --> 3:59:23.640 to do, and like not have to obviously, like cowtows 3:59:23.680 --> 3:59:27.000 that it's extremely violent, misogynous organization like ISIS, but also 3:59:27.160 --> 3:59:29.960 like not necessarily have to fight either, and you know, 3:59:30.320 --> 3:59:32.880 could be self realized and whatever way they wanted to. 3:59:32.960 --> 3:59:36.400 And so to see these people having achieved their goal 3:59:36.640 --> 3:59:39.080 largely of I guess I still exists, right, and I 3:59:39.080 --> 3:59:41.920 still continues to kill people. It killed ten people yesterday, 3:59:43.640 --> 3:59:46.480 but that's the eighth of August because you won't hear 3:59:46.480 --> 3:59:51.040 this today. But to see these people who have like 3:59:51.120 --> 3:59:54.960 successfully at least liberated the territory, and then their young 3:59:55.000 --> 4:00:00.880 women are still dying but not finding ISIS. But fink Turkey, 4:00:01.000 --> 4:00:02.840 I can go on and give like there are dozens 4:00:02.880 --> 4:00:06.160 of examples of this report another one I'll just give. 4:00:06.200 --> 4:00:09.680 In July twenty twenty two, there was a YPG commander 4:00:09.720 --> 4:00:15.040 called Raj Kabur and a fighter called Barin Botan, so 4:00:16.120 --> 4:00:18.680 one of them had been and then another one called 4:00:18.840 --> 4:00:25.360 another YPJ commander called Jian Tall Hidden Tall Hidden. So 4:00:25.480 --> 4:00:28.360 these two women have been involved in the fight against 4:00:28.400 --> 4:00:34.400 ISIS like from the beginning, having like liberated cities, liberated territory, 4:00:34.440 --> 4:00:36.120 and then they were with this young woman who was 4:00:36.280 --> 4:00:40.320 nineteen years old and had relatively recently joined the YPG 4:00:40.560 --> 4:00:44.240 right and was killed by a dreat strike. It's like 4:00:44.320 --> 4:00:47.200 it's particularly galling, I think for me at least two 4:00:47.520 --> 4:00:50.560 so that the YPG Information Office is someone that I 4:00:50.680 --> 4:00:54.960 communicate with, like for work stuff, and it's particularly galling 4:00:55.040 --> 4:00:57.400 to like wake up Brent and see that on your phone, 4:00:58.280 --> 4:00:59.760 like to get a message and look at a report 4:00:59.800 --> 4:01:02.800 see pitch of a car like blown to pieces. At 4:01:02.800 --> 4:01:06.360 the same time as like the directories to drowne the 4:01:06.400 --> 4:01:09.400 Turkey hassaulta Ukraine in large numbers, right, which has been 4:01:09.560 --> 4:01:13.600 hugely effective in destroying Russian armor and like it's. 4:01:13.400 --> 4:01:16.160 Curler on at least was it's it's it seems to 4:01:16.240 --> 4:01:18.480 not really work. I mean a lot of stuff has 4:01:18.560 --> 4:01:23.000 changed obviously, like new technology is extremely effective early on 4:01:23.080 --> 4:01:25.360 before there's countermeasures anyway, whatever, we don't need to get 4:01:25.400 --> 4:01:26.040 nerdy about this. 4:01:26.960 --> 4:01:30.680 Yeah, yeah, it's certainly like in the first months of 4:01:30.800 --> 4:01:34.040 their war, like the war in Ukraine became like a meme. 4:01:35.040 --> 4:01:38.680 You can buy a stuffed birector on etsyo eBay, like 4:01:38.720 --> 4:01:42.280 like a soft toy, like a Teddy Bear. There are 4:01:42.320 --> 4:01:44.960 songs about it. 4:01:44.880 --> 4:01:47.120 It's not it's not great, Yeah it was, and it 4:01:47.200 --> 4:01:49.680 was one of those things where like obviously I was 4:01:49.720 --> 4:01:54.360 happy to see effective tools being used by the Ukrainians 4:01:54.400 --> 4:01:57.200 to like defend their home, yes, of course, but I'm 4:01:57.240 --> 4:02:00.480 not ever going to get up and stand the the 4:02:00.520 --> 4:02:06.400 Turkish defense industry or yeah, defense industry. And for the record, 4:02:06.600 --> 4:02:08.960 I feel the same way about like the people standing 4:02:09.200 --> 4:02:13.000 standing you know, different US defense contractors making stuff like 4:02:13.360 --> 4:02:16.240 you know, long range missile systems, Like no, I'm not 4:02:16.600 --> 4:02:18.680 I'm not really a fan of that, Like I get it. 4:02:18.800 --> 4:02:21.960 Sometimes you know, when you're being invaded, you use the 4:02:22.000 --> 4:02:25.840 tools available, But that doesn't mean we need to celebrate that. 4:02:26.560 --> 4:02:29.600 Yeah, exactly. I think the tools are largely kind of agnostic, 4:02:30.280 --> 4:02:33.920 and anyone who's sort of is making things to kill 4:02:33.960 --> 4:02:36.960 people purely for profit, it's not necessarily a good a 4:02:37.000 --> 4:02:39.040 good thing to do with your life, I guess, uh. 4:02:39.280 --> 4:02:43.080 And like, it's just troubling to me to see people 4:02:43.160 --> 4:02:47.000 like cheering this on without like it highlights one, like 4:02:47.040 --> 4:02:50.680 the way that people engage with conflict, especially online, especially 4:02:50.720 --> 4:02:55.520 in the US, which and yeah, it's not a computer game, 4:02:55.760 --> 4:02:59.480 it's someone's nineteen year old fucking daughter. It's someone's mum 4:02:59.680 --> 4:03:02.440 or sitta or brother or uncle or dad or the 4:03:02.720 --> 4:03:03.720 binary relative. 4:03:04.400 --> 4:03:06.600 The fact that you can buy like a stuffed fucking 4:03:07.400 --> 4:03:11.360 weapon like little drone thing on Ebays. It's it's just 4:03:11.440 --> 4:03:14.840 so disturbing. I really just don't like humans when I 4:03:14.880 --> 4:03:15.440 think about that. 4:03:16.040 --> 4:03:19.680 Yeah, I understand why it happens this way, and I 4:03:19.760 --> 4:03:22.600 understand why if your country is being invaded and you 4:03:22.640 --> 4:03:25.760 can get more support from the international community by leaning 4:03:25.800 --> 4:03:27.880 into this shit, you lean into this shit. But I 4:03:27.880 --> 4:03:29.960 don't like the idea of like some I don't know, 4:03:30.280 --> 4:03:35.840 fucking accountant in Iowa watching hundreds of videos of like 4:03:35.920 --> 4:03:38.640 Russian soldiers being killed and then like getting a fucking 4:03:38.720 --> 4:03:44.240 Lockheed Martin tattoo, like the like the like like turning 4:03:44.840 --> 4:03:49.640 turning your support for people you know in a deadly 4:03:49.800 --> 4:03:52.840 military conflict into like fandom, treating it the way you 4:03:52.880 --> 4:03:56.800 treat like a Marvel movie or whatever. I find not great. 4:03:58.440 --> 4:04:01.880 Yeah, it's just not like I understand why. Like I 4:04:01.920 --> 4:04:04.560 wouldn't blame anyone in Ukraine for being super excited about 4:04:04.560 --> 4:04:07.520 having bairaktars because it stops people burning their homes and 4:04:07.600 --> 4:04:10.320 killing their children. Yeah, like I would want that to no. 4:04:10.560 --> 4:04:13.600 Just like if you're if you're like I have a 4:04:13.640 --> 4:04:16.960 friend who I went like we were in fucking of 4:04:17.040 --> 4:04:20.680 Divka together, like sheltering with people from Russian shells and stuff, 4:04:21.040 --> 4:04:23.480 who then went on to join the Ukrainian military and 4:04:23.520 --> 4:04:26.680 has been fighting since the expanded invasion. If he wants 4:04:26.720 --> 4:04:29.400 to share videos or watch videos of like, you know, 4:04:29.680 --> 4:04:33.640 dead Russian soldiers from telegram, like that's war. It's unpleasant, 4:04:33.640 --> 4:04:36.680 but I get it. Like again, if you're some dude 4:04:36.760 --> 4:04:40.920 in fucking Wisconsin doing the same thing, I find that 4:04:41.520 --> 4:04:45.040 pretty unsettling, like, yeah, because you don't need to. 4:04:45.480 --> 4:04:47.800 Yeah, no, you don't need to. You don't need to 4:04:47.800 --> 4:04:50.200 dehumanize those people so you can kill them because you're 4:04:50.200 --> 4:04:52.240 not killing them. Yeah, but you just seem to have 4:04:52.520 --> 4:04:56.880 engaged in that same dehumanization which is necessary for people fighting, 4:04:57.600 --> 4:04:59.840 because I don't know, maybe you think you're helping. 4:04:59.640 --> 4:05:02.760 It's hard to shoot people otherwise, Like, yeah. 4:05:03.480 --> 4:05:06.800 There's a reason it's hard to fucking bayonet people, right, 4:05:06.800 --> 4:05:09.240 there's a reason that bayonet training is one of these 4:05:09.240 --> 4:05:12.520 things that's particularly just kind of it has to be violent. 4:05:12.960 --> 4:05:15.880 You have to be horrible, you know, like it's there's 4:05:15.880 --> 4:05:20.360 no nice way to stab someone. But the yeah, it 4:05:20.400 --> 4:05:22.960 doesn't mean that you need to tweet about it, especially 4:05:23.000 --> 4:05:26.200 folks who maybe aren't perhaptice on the ground familiar as 4:05:26.240 --> 4:05:30.720 what this looks like. So I wanted to maybe get 4:05:30.760 --> 4:05:33.280 into a little bit. And there are, as I said, 4:05:33.320 --> 4:05:36.000 dozens of these corone attacks. They really ramped up in 4:05:36.080 --> 4:05:38.840 early twenty twenty three, along with like a kind of 4:05:38.880 --> 4:05:43.160 a larger air offensive. Right, they continue to happen like 4:05:43.360 --> 4:05:47.600 almost weekly. If people want to, I guess keep tabs. 4:05:47.720 --> 4:05:53.040 YPJ info is the YPG's kind of public facing press website. 4:05:53.480 --> 4:05:57.640 Rosier Information Center is a good English language resource. Both 4:05:57.640 --> 4:06:04.880 of those you can find on X or if you 4:06:04.880 --> 4:06:08.960 you can also search of them website. We just say X. 4:06:10.600 --> 4:06:16.400 Absolutely nudge, yeah, yeah, X is not in fact gonna 4:06:16.440 --> 4:06:16.960 give it to. 4:06:16.920 --> 4:06:22.280 Us, only like you will understand that way that I 4:06:22.440 --> 4:06:22.800 like that. 4:06:23.440 --> 4:06:27.080 Yeah, there's a narrow overlap there, buddy, Yeah, you shut 4:06:27.120 --> 4:06:29.120 the get there. Yeah, you know what is going to 4:06:29.200 --> 4:06:32.520 give it? And by it I mean the money that 4:06:32.600 --> 4:06:37.520 pays our wages to us. What is it, James, It's 4:06:37.560 --> 4:06:39.360 it's combination of products and services. 4:06:40.040 --> 4:06:43.320 Oh man, I love a good product, need to. I 4:06:43.320 --> 4:06:46.400 don't love services. Actually very anti service. But you know, 4:06:46.520 --> 4:06:48.080 we'll see, yeah, we'll see it. 4:06:48.160 --> 4:06:51.480 Might it might change your opinion, might be something amazing, unlikely, 4:06:52.000 --> 4:06:57.000 probably gold. But let's hear from the advertisers. All right, 4:06:57.000 --> 4:06:59.280 we're back and we hope you enjoyed those adverts as 4:06:59.320 --> 4:07:02.000 much as we do. So I want to talk about 4:07:02.320 --> 4:07:07.840 in the second half of the episode, why Turkey is 4:07:09.240 --> 4:07:13.480 using these drones to bomb people who, like we said, 4:07:13.520 --> 4:07:18.400 have fought and largely defeated the territorial Caliphate Ofvisis. I 4:07:18.440 --> 4:07:21.200 did want to bring up one more drone instant actually, 4:07:21.240 --> 4:07:23.680 which is particularly bad. So one of the things that 4:07:23.720 --> 4:07:26.680 you're often to see the SDF and specifically the YPG 4:07:26.840 --> 4:07:30.200 and the YPG kind of accused of is having child soldiers, 4:07:30.200 --> 4:07:34.320 are having recruiting people who are under the aged to fight. 4:07:35.200 --> 4:07:37.880 Part of a program they've implemented to stop this with 4:07:38.480 --> 4:07:42.680 consultation with the United Nations is building education centers. Right, 4:07:43.480 --> 4:07:46.400 I'm not going to comment morally on who should be 4:07:46.440 --> 4:07:48.680 fighting at what age, because I think it's one of 4:07:48.760 --> 4:07:51.760 judgment for us to make when like we GNATALIZI in 4:07:51.800 --> 4:07:53.200 the fucking street. Yeah, I. 4:07:54.760 --> 4:07:56.480 Look, I think there's a degree to which people are 4:07:56.480 --> 4:07:58.880 being unreasonable about this. I met a number of seventeen 4:07:58.960 --> 4:08:01.680 year olds. It's generally when people talk about child soldiers, 4:08:01.720 --> 4:08:04.200 they are talking about seventeen year olds. I have friends 4:08:04.240 --> 4:08:07.720 who joined the US Army when they were seventeen years old. 4:08:08.120 --> 4:08:10.320 Like I have friends who were learning how to drive 4:08:10.360 --> 4:08:14.120 a tank for the US military at age seventeen. And 4:08:14.280 --> 4:08:18.120 quite frankly, if you look at where like wars in 4:08:18.280 --> 4:08:21.480 history sixteen to twenty years old, that's most of the 4:08:21.480 --> 4:08:23.400 people who have fought most of the wars in most 4:08:23.400 --> 4:08:27.440 of history. That's like the way that it is. It's 4:08:27.480 --> 4:08:30.920 not pleasant. But like when we are talking like I 4:08:31.000 --> 4:08:33.920 certainly I would be very supportive of laws put in 4:08:33.960 --> 4:08:36.920 place in our country to raise the age at which 4:08:36.960 --> 4:08:39.880 people can join the military so that they are not 4:08:40.120 --> 4:08:42.760 young and not getting taken advantage of to as much 4:08:42.760 --> 4:08:45.040 of a degree. But we are not fighting in any 4:08:45.080 --> 4:08:46.520 conflicts for our survival. 4:08:46.920 --> 4:08:49.320 Yeah, I think people that point the finger and like 4:08:49.360 --> 4:08:52.560 talk about child soldiers whatever the shit and they're in, 4:08:52.600 --> 4:08:56.360 they are referencing like, yeah, basic teens. They have the 4:08:56.400 --> 4:08:59.640 privilege of doing that. They don't have to even think 4:08:59.640 --> 4:09:02.840 about protecting themselves or their family or whatever. 4:09:02.880 --> 4:09:05.800 I think when you are raised and. 4:09:06.760 --> 4:09:09.160 In like a situation of violence, like Palasine's a great 4:09:09.200 --> 4:09:12.080 example of that. You see like boys like trying to 4:09:12.120 --> 4:09:16.960 defend their country. It's like the same situation where there's 4:09:17.000 --> 4:09:19.040 you don't have the privilege of waiting until you're fucking 4:09:19.040 --> 4:09:20.800 twenty one or whatever. It's just like you have to 4:09:21.360 --> 4:09:22.840 you have to like protect yourself. 4:09:23.480 --> 4:09:26.320 Yeah, it's not the it's not a situation you are 4:09:26.320 --> 4:09:29.520 not being It's not like again, it's not like it 4:09:29.560 --> 4:09:32.160 is often when we talk about child soldiers, like in 4:09:32.240 --> 4:09:35.280 the Liberian Civil War, right, where you've got kids being 4:09:35.320 --> 4:09:38.160 pulled in, you know, for the advantage of some warlord. 4:09:38.320 --> 4:09:40.600 Nor is it like in the United States where you 4:09:40.640 --> 4:09:43.080 have seventeen and eight year old eighteen year olds being 4:09:43.080 --> 4:09:46.200 recruited in a predatory way off and by military recruiters 4:09:47.080 --> 4:09:50.760 and sent overseas in conflicts that are not necessary. We 4:09:50.840 --> 4:09:55.360 are talking about like isis is five blocks away, and 4:09:56.040 --> 4:09:58.120 like God knows what they'll do to my mom and 4:09:58.160 --> 4:10:00.520 my sister if they take over, Like I'm going to 4:10:00.520 --> 4:10:01.520 pick up a fucking. 4:10:01.280 --> 4:10:03.640 Gun, you know what else? What else are you going 4:10:03.680 --> 4:10:03.800 to do? 4:10:03.880 --> 4:10:05.840 That's the that's the world. Like they're living in a 4:10:05.880 --> 4:10:09.280 different set of realities than we are. 4:10:09.480 --> 4:10:11.720 Yeah, and anyone that places judgment on that is just 4:10:11.880 --> 4:10:15.760 ignorant and non understanding of the reality of the world. 4:10:15.760 --> 4:10:17.040 They're just like in their little bubble. 4:10:18.360 --> 4:10:18.560 Yeah. 4:10:18.600 --> 4:10:22.000 So on August the eighteenth, twenty twenty two, Turkish drone 4:10:22.360 --> 4:10:27.480 targeted one of these un affiliated education centers. Right, It 4:10:27.600 --> 4:10:32.320 was two kilometers from the US coalition base, and targeted 4:10:32.320 --> 4:10:36.880 group of teenage girls playing volleyball. It's very hard to 4:10:36.960 --> 4:10:41.400 see these education centers as like anywhere in military target right, 4:10:41.560 --> 4:10:45.400 They're literally designed to divert young people from becoming fighters 4:10:46.240 --> 4:10:49.760 and to you know, they're set up with the consultation 4:10:49.880 --> 4:10:52.760 United Nations, with the you know, like with as much 4:10:52.840 --> 4:10:54.960 oversight as one can expect an area which is in 4:10:54.960 --> 4:10:58.640 the middle of a civil war and to be drone 4:10:58.680 --> 4:11:02.840 striking schools. It's pretty callous. It's also worth noting that, 4:11:02.920 --> 4:11:05.800 like a phraser constantly gets thrown around a lot in 4:11:05.800 --> 4:11:07.880 discussion about the Middle East. Right, it's the only democracy 4:11:07.880 --> 4:11:12.240 in the Middle East, and it's let me tell you, 4:11:12.640 --> 4:11:14.960 it's not normally referring to this part of the world. 4:11:15.640 --> 4:11:21.640 It's referring to Israel, and a I don't think that's 4:11:21.680 --> 4:11:28.440 true Israel, Yeah, it does it what fucking definitely, Well, 4:11:28.520 --> 4:11:33.480 democracy is an extremely nebulous concept. So like, this is 4:11:33.520 --> 4:11:37.280 this scenaria where people's votes have a substantive impact on 4:11:37.320 --> 4:11:40.400 how their lives lives, certainly more so than people who 4:11:40.520 --> 4:11:42.040 are Arabs in Israel. 4:11:43.080 --> 4:11:47.680 And Kurds in southern Turkey, Sirius in Syria. 4:11:47.880 --> 4:11:56.080 Like yeah, yep, yeah, yes exactly, people in parts of 4:11:56.160 --> 4:11:58.240 Iran like Iraqi. 4:11:58.520 --> 4:12:02.160 People in northern or in in the Baghdad government controlled 4:12:02.200 --> 4:12:03.800 junks of Iraq for that matter. 4:12:04.440 --> 4:12:09.040 Yes, yeah, like all over, right, like, so, this isn't 4:12:09.080 --> 4:12:11.760 just an attack on like individual women. It's an attack 4:12:11.800 --> 4:12:15.080 on a state which is genuinely at least attempting to 4:12:15.280 --> 4:12:19.880 establish a new form of democracy, right, like a more participatory, 4:12:20.520 --> 4:12:24.960 more horizontally organized democracy. It's an attack on a state 4:12:24.960 --> 4:12:27.920 in the Middle East which is like anti patriarchal, which 4:12:28.640 --> 4:12:31.720 is something that we don't have here in the United States. Right, 4:12:31.840 --> 4:12:35.920 Like it's it's like we have still failed to have 4:12:36.000 --> 4:12:39.920 a woman being president, Like it's it's an attack on 4:12:39.960 --> 4:12:43.400 these things which most decent human beings should be able 4:12:43.440 --> 4:12:47.080 to get behind. These attacks also don't just affect the 4:12:47.120 --> 4:12:49.600 people who are killed, right. They continue to displace families, 4:12:49.640 --> 4:12:52.840 They contribute to fuel shortages, they create power cuts, they 4:12:52.880 --> 4:12:56.400 suspend schools, they stop aid organizations working in the area 4:12:56.440 --> 4:12:58.160 because it's too high risk, or they perceive it to 4:12:58.160 --> 4:13:03.520 be too high risk, and they stop the SDF continuing 4:13:03.680 --> 4:13:08.440 their operations against ISIS. Right Like, ISIS, as I said, 4:13:08.520 --> 4:13:12.160 continue to exist. They have sleeper cells. There was an 4:13:12.200 --> 4:13:15.400 attempted prison break last year. Two of the women from 4:13:15.440 --> 4:13:19.120 the YPG who had fought to stop those ISIS prisoners 4:13:19.120 --> 4:13:21.160 breaking out of their prison were later killed in the 4:13:21.240 --> 4:13:25.320 drone strike. It's very hard to see this as not 4:13:25.680 --> 4:13:30.600 helping that like that ISIS insurgency that they're fighting and 4:13:30.680 --> 4:13:33.920 hindering their operations. And I'm not just saying this based 4:13:33.960 --> 4:13:37.640 on sources that are there Roger Information Center, are people 4:13:37.680 --> 4:13:41.080 in their anes, but this is the policy of the 4:13:41.160 --> 4:13:43.920 United States. Right before we started this, I looked up 4:13:43.960 --> 4:13:47.680 some of the Inspector General's reports from Operation Inherent Resolve, 4:13:47.680 --> 4:13:50.840 which is the United States operation to lead a coalition 4:13:50.880 --> 4:13:53.600 which includes the SDF against ISIS, and they were talking 4:13:53.600 --> 4:13:56.520 about how the sdf's operations are hindered because they keep 4:13:56.600 --> 4:14:00.160 getting shot by durants, right, and that there's not much 4:14:00.840 --> 4:14:05.200 that they can do about it. Right, Unlike like Ukraine, 4:14:05.240 --> 4:14:08.520 we're not sending a ton of surface to air missiles 4:14:08.600 --> 4:14:11.640 or like things that you could use to defend yourself 4:14:11.640 --> 4:14:14.400 against drones, right, not that it's very easy to defend 4:14:14.440 --> 4:14:19.120 yourself against the drone. So why is Turkey doing this? 4:14:19.720 --> 4:14:22.680 I think thirsty because, as Robert said, it sees SDF 4:14:22.680 --> 4:14:25.440 and the PKK is the same thing, right, And so 4:14:25.800 --> 4:14:29.680 the PKK mostly operates, like Robert said, in the mountains 4:14:29.680 --> 4:14:33.800 of southeastern Turkey, and it's been fighting this asymmetrical war 4:14:33.880 --> 4:14:39.160 against the Turkish state since nineteen eighty four. So Urdigan 4:14:39.360 --> 4:14:43.520 as Urdigan is the president of Turkey, right. He entered 4:14:43.520 --> 4:14:46.360 off his in two thousand and three, and he's sort 4:14:46.360 --> 4:14:49.880 of pivoted on Turkish issues and Kurdish issues. Sorry, he 4:14:50.880 --> 4:14:54.560 continues to be Turkish. But he was initially in favor 4:14:54.600 --> 4:14:56.920 of like a negotiated peace with the PKK. In his 4:14:57.000 --> 4:15:01.800 early years included like propose for linguistic autonomy, the right 4:15:01.840 --> 4:15:05.200 to a Kurdish press, and even like the return of 4:15:05.280 --> 4:15:09.600 Kurdish place names, which is a big deal still yeah, right, Yeah, 4:15:09.840 --> 4:15:15.080 you'll see like comishlo or al chemishli, like one being 4:15:15.120 --> 4:15:18.360 Arab their latter being Arabic, that the form of being Kurdish. 4:15:18.000 --> 4:15:20.880 Right, Yeah, I mean it's just it's a huge deal 4:15:20.920 --> 4:15:23.120 because you're not just killing like people, you're killing a 4:15:23.880 --> 4:15:27.880 culture that's like in like it's not it's still like 4:15:27.920 --> 4:15:29.840 a different word to say extinct, like it's in danger 4:15:29.920 --> 4:15:31.440 of like not being there if it's not for the 4:15:31.440 --> 4:15:34.920 people protecting it. Right, And I think it's like a 4:15:35.040 --> 4:15:38.080 classic tactic to stop people from using their language or 4:15:38.840 --> 4:15:41.240 customs or whatever, to just like try to erase them 4:15:41.280 --> 4:15:43.640 and like make them Turk or whatever they want them 4:15:43.680 --> 4:15:47.680 to be. And so the proposal of that, I think 4:15:47.760 --> 4:15:50.800 is significant. But then obviously the follow through is a 4:15:50.840 --> 4:15:52.360 different story. 4:15:52.520 --> 4:15:54.960 Yeah, the follow through is not there, right, So after 4:15:55.080 --> 4:15:58.040 twenty fifteen, he's really pivoted and he's pursued like a 4:15:58.080 --> 4:16:02.240 really violent antique Kurdish policy. And it's worth noting, as 4:16:02.280 --> 4:16:04.360 you said, that for much of the twentieth century, the 4:16:04.400 --> 4:16:07.120 Turkey state denied the existence of Kurdish people together. They 4:16:07.120 --> 4:16:10.680 call them mountain Turks in even in March twenty twenty one, 4:16:10.760 --> 4:16:13.680 the Turkish Military of Education released a book in the 4:16:13.800 --> 4:16:20.200 Kurdish majority. It's a province called Diabakir. Diabakir, I guess 4:16:20.000 --> 4:16:23.560 it's Turkish, which it doesn't mention Kurds. It's a Kurlish 4:16:23.600 --> 4:16:28.040 majority province. It doesn't mention the Kurdish language. It claims 4:16:28.200 --> 4:16:33.080 that it's a Turkish dialect that's spoken there. They changed 4:16:33.080 --> 4:16:35.560 the name in August twenty twenty one of seventeenth century 4:16:35.600 --> 4:16:40.040 Mosque from the words translating from the Turkish to the 4:16:40.080 --> 4:16:43.760 Kurds Mosque, and they call it the Turks Mosque. In 4:16:43.800 --> 4:16:48.960 twenty twenty three, Turkey dropped its objection. So subjection is 4:16:49.000 --> 4:16:51.680 an effective vito right to Finland and Sweden joining NATO 4:16:52.360 --> 4:16:54.560 when the latter pledged to devote more attention to the 4:16:54.560 --> 4:16:57.680 PKK and effectively end its decades old tradition as giving 4:16:57.720 --> 4:17:02.360 protection an asylum to Kurdish refugees. So if people aren't familiar, 4:17:02.360 --> 4:17:04.440 Sweden has been a country that's offered asylum to a 4:17:04.960 --> 4:17:07.320 lot of different groups of people, Like I have a 4:17:07.320 --> 4:17:10.240 lot of friends from various stories I've done all over 4:17:10.280 --> 4:17:12.960 the world who have ended up living in Sweden, and 4:17:14.240 --> 4:17:16.240 Curtish people are among those people, right who have found 4:17:16.280 --> 4:17:19.600 a home and a safe place in Sweden. So encouraging 4:17:19.600 --> 4:17:23.880 Sweden to not do that gives people one less safe 4:17:23.920 --> 4:17:27.600 place to go, right, Yeah, and this was kind of 4:17:27.680 --> 4:17:30.720 Turkey's like cost of entry for those people into NATO. Now, 4:17:30.720 --> 4:17:34.600 obviously there's a reason that Sweden and Finland want to 4:17:34.640 --> 4:17:37.680 join NATO, right, and that's the Russia is like right 4:17:37.720 --> 4:17:42.440 there and has been doing some invasion recently, and so 4:17:42.480 --> 4:17:44.880 they want that as kind of mutual aid, that mutual defense, 4:17:45.240 --> 4:17:48.240 and so they're being forced to give up this very 4:17:48.280 --> 4:17:51.960 reasonable policy of offering people asylum. Hi, everyone, it's me 4:17:52.240 --> 4:17:55.040 James and I am back after what I hope was 4:17:55.080 --> 4:17:59.920 a fruitful and enjoyable advertising break for you. It is 4:18:00.280 --> 4:18:02.040 just me, and the reason for that is that someone 4:18:02.040 --> 4:18:07.000 outside is currently severing my telephone cable, judging by what 4:18:07.080 --> 4:18:08.640 I can hear and the fact that I no longer 4:18:08.760 --> 4:18:12.040 have the Internet. So the second part of this episode 4:18:12.080 --> 4:18:15.400 will be me reading my script by myself without the 4:18:15.480 --> 4:18:19.880 interesting and often entertaining input of my colleagues. So sorry 4:18:19.920 --> 4:18:22.600 about that, but you will just have to make do. 4:18:23.360 --> 4:18:26.600 Turkey's been involved in a Syrian civil war since the beginning. Initially, 4:18:26.640 --> 4:18:29.600 it armed and equipped the Anti Assad FSA, but in 4:18:29.640 --> 4:18:32.760 August twenty sixteen it began a direct occupation of parts 4:18:32.760 --> 4:18:37.160 of northern Syria under Operation Euphrates Shield. In twenty seventeen, 4:18:37.240 --> 4:18:40.320 it facilitated the establishment of the Syrian National Army in 4:18:40.360 --> 4:18:44.360 the Syrian Entering Government, which it finances. Turkey has accused 4:18:44.360 --> 4:18:47.880 of Syrian Democratic forces, to which the YPG and YPGA belong, 4:18:48.400 --> 4:18:52.440 of quote seizing and ethnically cleansing territories which don't belong 4:18:52.480 --> 4:18:56.200 to Kurds. There isn't really any credible evidence for this, 4:18:56.320 --> 4:19:00.120 and the UN has refuted these claims. Some people have 4:19:00.120 --> 4:19:03.280 have moved right, like as happens in many conflicts, but 4:19:03.640 --> 4:19:07.120 the SMI saw was like twenty five families. Erligan has 4:19:07.160 --> 4:19:09.640 openly expressed a sentiment that Kurdish people don't belong in 4:19:09.680 --> 4:19:12.840 North and East Syria, saying these areas are not suitable 4:19:12.840 --> 4:19:16.560 for the lifestyle of Kurds because these areas of virtually desert, 4:19:17.720 --> 4:19:22.880 deportations of Syrians who have been who have sought refuge 4:19:22.880 --> 4:19:24.800 in Turkey. Right, so people from Syria who have fled 4:19:24.840 --> 4:19:27.440 the civil war. But three and just over three and 4:19:27.480 --> 4:19:31.720 a half million people are living in Turkey. Right, Turkey 4:19:31.760 --> 4:19:33.960 has to Cloud's intention to move one million of these 4:19:33.960 --> 4:19:37.680 people back to Syria, and it has already begun moving 4:19:37.720 --> 4:19:40.480 these people back to northwest Syria in the area as 4:19:40.520 --> 4:19:41.160 it occupies. 4:19:41.240 --> 4:19:41.440 Right. 4:19:42.880 --> 4:19:44.720 The US State Department in a press conference on the 4:19:44.760 --> 4:19:48.480 fourth of August deny that this constituted a demographic change. 4:19:48.880 --> 4:19:51.280 But I think that that's very heavily disputed by people 4:19:51.360 --> 4:19:54.080 on the ground. Certainly, the YPJA and the YPG would 4:19:54.080 --> 4:19:58.960 dispute that right that the Kurdish people who have been 4:19:59.040 --> 4:20:01.960 driven out of some of the Turkey occupies are being 4:20:02.080 --> 4:20:04.600 replaced by these people that are being moved back in 4:20:04.680 --> 4:20:08.240 by Turkey. Turkey was of course the entry point for 4:20:08.320 --> 4:20:10.040 much of the weaponry and many of the people who 4:20:10.120 --> 4:20:15.160 joined ISIS in Syria. Foreign Policy the Publication has estimated 4:20:15.160 --> 4:20:17.920 that more than thirty thousand people across Turkey along the 4:20:17.960 --> 4:20:21.920 so called Jihadi Highway. Later Turkey clamped down on this 4:20:21.960 --> 4:20:25.880 a bit, but certainly in my coverage of the smuggling 4:20:26.000 --> 4:20:30.720 of weapons and equipment to ISIS, they were going through Turkey. 4:20:31.240 --> 4:20:34.560 Turkey was also directly engaged with the defeat of ISIS 4:20:34.600 --> 4:20:39.760 right Turk Turkey's troops for ISIS in parts of northern Syria. Meanwhile, 4:20:39.920 --> 4:20:42.720 Turkey is also enforced an economic blockade of the Autonomous 4:20:42.760 --> 4:20:46.800 Area of Northeast Syria, and it's even restricted water flowing 4:20:46.840 --> 4:20:50.480 into the region. Right, So, at some point weapons and 4:20:50.600 --> 4:20:53.400 humans have flowed through Turkey to ISIS, and at this 4:20:53.440 --> 4:20:57.080 point water is not flowing in sufficient quantities through Turkey 4:20:57.120 --> 4:21:00.320 to the Autonomous Area of North and East Syria. And 4:21:00.800 --> 4:21:05.440 twenty eighteen, Turkey started what's called Operation Olive Branch. It's 4:21:05.440 --> 4:21:08.480 a military operation in which Turkish and Syrian National Army 4:21:08.480 --> 4:21:11.800 forces took control as the city of Afrin. The assault 4:21:12.040 --> 4:21:15.600 included the alleged use of chemical gas, shelling of civilian areas, 4:21:15.640 --> 4:21:19.520 and shooting of fleeing refugees. Kurdish shrine flags, cultural and 4:21:19.600 --> 4:21:23.000 historical sites were targeted destroyed by Turkish military forces. A 4:21:23.120 --> 4:21:27.800 hospital was bombed. Reporters Without Borders noted that reporting on 4:21:27.840 --> 4:21:30.760 the conflict had been handstrung by the Turkish government and 4:21:30.840 --> 4:21:33.600 more than thirty thousand Kurdish people have been displaced and 4:21:33.640 --> 4:21:37.080 their homes have been taken by those relocated refugees who 4:21:37.120 --> 4:21:39.920 we spoke about. Olive arms in the area have been 4:21:39.960 --> 4:21:42.800 seized and then leased to fund the operation of the 4:21:42.840 --> 4:21:46.640 pro Turkish Syrian National Army. The Syrian Observatory for Human 4:21:46.720 --> 4:21:49.720 Rights has documented these forces threatening to be head Kurds, 4:21:50.120 --> 4:21:53.200 and The Independent, that's the newspaper, has noted that some 4:21:53.200 --> 4:21:56.400 of the people fighting alongside the SNA are themselves former 4:21:56.440 --> 4:22:01.000 cardrids of Isis. In its reporting, the Independent reported that 4:22:01.080 --> 4:22:04.880 and I quote video posted online shows three uniformed Jahadis 4:22:04.920 --> 4:22:08.080 singing a song in praise of their past battles, and 4:22:08.280 --> 4:22:12.640 it says, quote how we were steadfast in Grossny, that's 4:22:12.640 --> 4:22:17.240 in Chezhnir, Dakistan, and we took the Tora Bora. That's 4:22:17.280 --> 4:22:20.880 Tora Bora's cave complex, formerly the headquarters of Osama bin Laden, 4:22:21.800 --> 4:22:25.080 and now Afrien is calling to us. There's the song 4:22:25.160 --> 4:22:29.680 they were singing, right, that's suggesting that they're sort of 4:22:29.760 --> 4:22:32.440 a fight. There's casting this in in a long line 4:22:32.600 --> 4:22:35.840 of these battles that have been fought by these various 4:22:35.880 --> 4:22:38.760 I guess Islamist groups, just to be super clear on 4:22:38.800 --> 4:22:42.840 Islamist versus Islamic, because I don't want people to confuse 4:22:43.000 --> 4:22:46.560 the two things. One is a political outlook, right of 4:22:46.640 --> 4:22:50.160 being an Islamist is a political outlook in it it 4:22:50.200 --> 4:22:54.600 focuses on, It uses an interpretation of Islam, which is 4:22:54.640 --> 4:22:57.920 certainly not the mainstream one. It's not my place to 4:22:57.920 --> 4:23:00.000 say whether or not it's a correct one, but it's 4:23:00.000 --> 4:23:01.800 certainly not the one that most Muslims in the world 4:23:01.880 --> 4:23:05.680 agree with. And it's the interpretation of that faith that 4:23:05.720 --> 4:23:09.600 you'll have seen with groups like ISIS and al Qaida. Right, 4:23:10.320 --> 4:23:13.120 But that is not to say by any means that 4:23:13.160 --> 4:23:15.960 all Muslim people agree with this, because they don't. There 4:23:16.040 --> 4:23:19.320 are Muslim people, many thousand, hundred and thousand of them 4:23:19.400 --> 4:23:23.440 who have been targeted killed by these people, right, And 4:23:23.600 --> 4:23:26.040 just wanted to be super clear on that distinction. The 4:23:26.080 --> 4:23:28.600 Syrian Observatory for Human Rights has also noted members of 4:23:28.600 --> 4:23:31.320 the Turkish fascist group the Gray Wolves, fighting alongside the 4:23:31.440 --> 4:23:35.880 SNA SO standing in the United States, it is easy 4:23:35.920 --> 4:23:40.680 to see this Turkish operation as a consequence of Trump's 4:23:40.760 --> 4:23:44.440 choice to abandon the SDF and the people who defeated ISIS, 4:23:44.480 --> 4:23:47.080 and to a large degree it is, but it also 4:23:47.160 --> 4:23:50.040 represents a long term goal of verdigans Turkey, which is 4:23:50.080 --> 4:23:52.240 tried without success to get support for its plans to 4:23:52.240 --> 4:23:54.440 build a buffer zone thirty kilometers deep a long its 4:23:54.440 --> 4:23:56.800 border with Syria, and to fill that buffer zone with 4:23:56.920 --> 4:24:01.280 Syrian refugees who increasingly end up in Turkey. In particular, 4:24:01.640 --> 4:24:06.200 Turkey has objected to plans by the United States train 4:24:06.240 --> 4:24:10.360 and equip for thirty thousand person strong border force. This 4:24:10.440 --> 4:24:13.080 went through several different naming iterations. It's don't really matter, 4:24:13.160 --> 4:24:17.320 it's a border force. Right before the attack, Russian military 4:24:17.360 --> 4:24:20.240 officials proposed handing over a freeing to a SAD as 4:24:20.280 --> 4:24:23.200 a compromise. So we haven't talked about Russia much. Robert 4:24:23.200 --> 4:24:26.600 talks about this in his series, But Russia is in 4:24:26.680 --> 4:24:32.280 Syria as an ally of the Aside regime, and it 4:24:32.520 --> 4:24:35.720 has sort of acted as a go between between the 4:24:35.800 --> 4:24:39.200 SDF and the Side regime, and it has proposed in 4:24:39.240 --> 4:24:44.560 this instance right that the SDF withdraw from a freeing, 4:24:44.640 --> 4:24:48.960 which is the area that Turkey invaded an operation out 4:24:49.000 --> 4:24:50.800 of Branch of twenty eighteen, and it said, if you 4:24:50.800 --> 4:24:52.480 guys put out and you hand us over to a SAD, 4:24:52.520 --> 4:24:55.240 the Turks won't invade, they won't directly take on a 4:24:55.320 --> 4:25:01.760 SAD like that. The SDF refused. Right authorities are in 4:25:01.800 --> 4:25:06.160 a very tense relationship with Damascus, which is where Asad's 4:25:06.200 --> 4:25:09.560 government is based. Right, they've both received aid from them, 4:25:09.600 --> 4:25:13.080 have been attacked by them. After they were abandoned by 4:25:13.080 --> 4:25:17.320 the US and Russia, and they knew that Turkey Russia. 4:25:17.440 --> 4:25:19.800 Russia was aware that Turkey had plans to invade right 4:25:19.840 --> 4:25:22.440 and obviously didn't do anything to stop it. So they 4:25:22.760 --> 4:25:26.040 these SDF felt that they were abandoned by US and Russia, 4:25:26.040 --> 4:25:28.400 with very very good reason to feel that way. The 4:25:28.600 --> 4:25:30.560 A and E s scrambled to find new ally to 4:25:30.600 --> 4:25:32.880 protect them, and they found one in the Side government. 4:25:33.920 --> 4:25:36.280 This wasn't like, I don't think a choice that they 4:25:36.360 --> 4:25:39.080 wanted to make. I think the rest of the worldn't 4:25:39.160 --> 4:25:42.960 leave with many options. So I'm quoting here from most 4:25:43.040 --> 4:25:45.960 Luma Beidi, the SDFS commander in chief. He wrote an 4:25:45.960 --> 4:25:49.280 OpEd and foreign policy. It'll be linked in our sources 4:25:49.320 --> 4:25:51.800 at the end of the month. If we have to 4:25:51.880 --> 4:25:55.360 choose compromise in genocide, we will choose our people, he said. 4:25:56.560 --> 4:25:59.640 Numerous fighters who for ISIS and foreign volunteers have died 4:25:59.680 --> 4:26:04.280 in a so in that initial operation right when the 4:26:04.560 --> 4:26:10.280 SDF opposed Turkish invasion, numerous people died. One of them 4:26:10.360 --> 4:26:13.280 was a Britain named Anna Campbell. As she went by 4:26:13.400 --> 4:26:17.200 Helene Kera coox. I matter fuck that pronunciation of but 4:26:18.240 --> 4:26:21.600 not my attempt to be disrespectful I have. She was 4:26:21.680 --> 4:26:24.840 killed by Turkish Michelle and Afree and her father, Dirk Campbell, 4:26:25.360 --> 4:26:28.240 has been campaigning ever since tav his daughter's remains returned. 4:26:28.640 --> 4:26:31.200 His case remains with the courts and has been entirely 4:26:31.280 --> 4:26:34.800 crowd funded. He submitted a claim to the European Court 4:26:34.800 --> 4:26:37.200 of Human Rights after hearing nothing from the Turkish courts, 4:26:37.200 --> 4:26:39.280 and when he did that, the Turkish courtse picked up 4:26:39.280 --> 4:26:42.080 the case he'd submitted there. You can also find a 4:26:42.120 --> 4:26:45.800 link to this in the sources, but it's crowdjustice dot com, 4:26:45.840 --> 4:26:49.920 slash case slash help Hyphen bring hyphen Anna Hyphen home. 4:26:50.640 --> 4:26:52.480 They've raised all the money they need her at the moment, 4:26:52.520 --> 4:26:55.720 but doubtless they will need more in the future. So 4:26:56.560 --> 4:26:58.720 where does all this leave the people of North and 4:26:58.760 --> 4:26:59.320 East Syria? 4:26:59.440 --> 4:26:59.560 Right? 4:26:59.640 --> 4:27:06.680 These are people who have been impacted by the territorial 4:27:06.720 --> 4:27:08.960 caliphate of the Islamic State and all the horrific things 4:27:08.960 --> 4:27:11.040 that people will be aware happened that. They're people who 4:27:11.040 --> 4:27:14.560 have successfully fought for and achieved their freedom only to 4:27:14.560 --> 4:27:18.440 be attacked by another state. And they are people who 4:27:19.240 --> 4:27:23.000 have suffered the same earthquake that Turkey suffered. In February 4:27:23.040 --> 4:27:25.880 of this year twenty twenty three, four thousand people died 4:27:25.920 --> 4:27:27.560 in a freed right, which is the city which is 4:27:27.560 --> 4:27:33.960 now occupied by Turkish and SNA troops, and Turkey pushed 4:27:33.960 --> 4:27:37.040 a little bit further east in Operation quote unquote Peace Spring, 4:27:37.400 --> 4:27:42.680 a year after Olive Branch, and currently Turkey is cutting 4:27:42.720 --> 4:27:45.440 water flow to pumping stations it controls that feed water 4:27:45.520 --> 4:27:48.160 to the area. It combines with the impact of the 4:27:48.160 --> 4:27:50.400 earthquake and the ongoing burden of controlling one of the 4:27:50.520 --> 4:27:52.920 largest prisons in Earth, which is the Al Whole Prison 4:27:52.960 --> 4:27:56.800 which holds the majority of the ISIS fighters and their 4:27:56.840 --> 4:28:00.760 families who were not either killed or returned to the 4:28:00.800 --> 4:28:03.160 states from which they came. And we'll have more on 4:28:03.200 --> 4:28:08.000 that Alhole Prison next week. There's infighting between militias in 4:28:08.000 --> 4:28:11.840 the Turkish areas, which obviously impact Turkish controlled areas. Obviously 4:28:11.880 --> 4:28:15.560 that impacts civilians is arbitrary arrests. There's the increasing Turkification 4:28:15.880 --> 4:28:18.600 of areas like a free right, including instruction in the 4:28:18.600 --> 4:28:22.600 Turkish language. Like Shurin said earlier, it's one of the 4:28:22.600 --> 4:28:25.880 things that's integral to maintaining national identity is education. 4:28:26.080 --> 4:28:26.280 Right. 4:28:27.360 --> 4:28:30.880 In my experience studying cattle and identity leetting education in 4:28:30.960 --> 4:28:36.640 Catalan was vital to fermenting and continuing Catalan identity. Kadish 4:28:36.880 --> 4:28:40.560 identity is not national in the same way the identity 4:28:40.560 --> 4:28:42.320 in the A and S I guess is not national. 4:28:42.360 --> 4:28:46.000 But this turkification, right, the flying of Turkish flags above 4:28:46.040 --> 4:28:49.800 buildings which are not military buildings, right like above hospitals, 4:28:49.800 --> 4:28:52.720 and that kind of thing again is a marginalization of 4:28:52.720 --> 4:28:54.520 the people who already lived there and who have lived 4:28:54.520 --> 4:28:57.840 there for a long time. SDF guerrilla units like Wrath 4:28:57.880 --> 4:29:00.000 of Olives and a Free and Liberation Front are involved 4:29:00.080 --> 4:29:04.080 and fighting with a Syrian National Army, and that fighting 4:29:04.440 --> 4:29:07.000 kills civilians right and throughout a Free and there have 4:29:07.000 --> 4:29:11.280 been things like car bombs. The a Free Liberation Front 4:29:12.200 --> 4:29:15.360 goes by HRI from the Kurdish initials right, and they've 4:29:15.480 --> 4:29:19.120 carried out some attacks on SNA militias in the last 4:29:19.120 --> 4:29:21.800 few days. You can often see videos of those online 4:29:21.800 --> 4:29:23.360 and it's the sort of thing you'd like to see. 4:29:24.160 --> 4:29:26.560 There are still land mines that kill civilians in the area, 4:29:26.600 --> 4:29:30.200 and there are still ISIS sleeper cells bombing and killing people. 4:29:31.160 --> 4:29:33.960 Last week, the Autonomous Administration of North and East Syria 4:29:34.080 --> 4:29:37.320 responded to Turkey's ongoing aggresion, bashing a statement claiming Turkey's 4:29:37.360 --> 4:29:40.240 operations are forcing the SDF to divert personnel away from 4:29:40.280 --> 4:29:44.920 countering ISIS and threatening the stability of the area. Obviously, 4:29:45.560 --> 4:29:47.840 this is all after an earthquake which killed four thousand 4:29:47.960 --> 4:29:52.040 people in a free people that have access to as 4:29:52.040 --> 4:29:54.320 many hospitals there. For instance, Dots still have to travel 4:29:54.360 --> 4:29:57.560 to Turkey to get cancer treatment, right and so IS. 4:29:57.600 --> 4:30:01.760 This leaves that people of North and Eastyria in a 4:30:01.840 --> 4:30:07.560 very precarious situation right in which there are. They're now 4:30:07.640 --> 4:30:10.680 left largely without the solidarity that they experienced when they 4:30:10.680 --> 4:30:14.440 were fighting. Isis right, and it's very difficult, Just like 4:30:14.480 --> 4:30:17.880 in so many cases, I feel this way about Memar two. 4:30:17.920 --> 4:30:21.920 To see the US and Europe expressing solidarity and solidarity 4:30:21.920 --> 4:30:24.400 in the form of lethal aid. Right, solidarity in the 4:30:24.440 --> 4:30:28.320 form of surface to webissiles and tanks and rifles and 4:30:28.360 --> 4:30:31.080 bullet proof beests and medical aid and all the things 4:30:31.080 --> 4:30:33.520 that you need to sustain a fight to Ukraine, and 4:30:33.560 --> 4:30:35.600 they should they should do that. I'm not saying for 4:30:35.640 --> 4:30:38.680 a moment that they shouldn't. Right. Ukraine has been invaded 4:30:38.720 --> 4:30:40.880 by a much bigger and more powerful military and it 4:30:40.920 --> 4:30:43.000 has every right to defend itself. And I'm glad that 4:30:43.040 --> 4:30:46.360 we're helping, but I wish that we would help other 4:30:46.400 --> 4:30:50.400 people too, especially people who we have sort of made 4:30:50.400 --> 4:30:52.640 promises to that we've not kept, or people who we've 4:30:52.720 --> 4:30:56.120 encouraged to believe, in the case of Memr right, that 4:30:56.160 --> 4:30:58.560 they have a right to a better life, and then 4:30:58.880 --> 4:31:02.520 when they decide to defend that, we don't stand behind them. So, yeah, 4:31:02.520 --> 4:31:07.280 that's my episode. I'm sorry for a weird juxtaposition of 4:31:07.360 --> 4:31:11.240 me doing the love part scripted, but somebody outside is 4:31:11.320 --> 4:31:14.520 drilling through my phone cable. So yeah, thank you for 4:31:14.600 --> 4:31:15.000 joining me. 4:31:18.280 --> 4:31:21.440 Hey, We'll be back Monday with more episodes every week 4:31:21.520 --> 4:31:23.400 from now until the heat death of the Universe. 4:31:24.000 --> 4:31:26.520 It Could Happen Here as a production of cool Zone Media. 4:31:26.600 --> 4:31:29.240 For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 4:31:29.320 --> 4:31:31.520 cool zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the 4:31:31.560 --> 4:31:35.120 iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 4:31:35.400 --> 4:31:37.480 You can find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated 4:31:37.560 --> 4:31:41.640 monthly at cool zonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.