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Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted to let

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Speaker 1: you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode

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Speaker 1: of the week that just happened is here in one

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Speaker 1: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

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Speaker 1: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

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Speaker 1: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 1: there's gotta be nothing new here for you, but you

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Speaker 1: can make your own decisions. It could happen. Here is

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Speaker 1: the podcast that this is right now? Would you guys?

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Speaker 1: When do you guys? Solo intro this podcast? James Stout,

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Speaker 1: Mia Wong do y'all? Uh do y'all just like shout

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Speaker 1: atonally ever have you have y'all tried that yet?

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Speaker 2: I haven't.

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Speaker 3: I struggle with the intro. I just say hello everyone.

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Speaker 3: Yeah James, Nope, No.

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Speaker 1: That's try that's your that's your East Coast Ivy League elitism.

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Speaker 1: Uh coming through.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's that's correct. For ever since I was born

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Speaker 3: in Boston, I've had that, Yeah, growing up on a

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Speaker 3: different side of the tracks to yourself also from Boston,

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Speaker 3: New Coos.

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Speaker 1: That's right, that's right, Yes, in Boston. I'm sure I'm

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Speaker 1: not allowed currently to do the accent because Sophie for

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Speaker 1: legal reasons. Yeah yeah, I uh yeah, yeah, she's got

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Speaker 1: some dirt on me. Anyway, we are a podcast about

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Speaker 1: things falling apart, and you know what would make things

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Speaker 1: fall apart worse than they already are is if Donald

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Speaker 1: Trump won a second term. So today, true, we're going

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Speaker 1: to talk partly about that, and we're going to talk

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Speaker 1: about the indictments against him. That's the big news, right

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Speaker 1: the most recent big political news. Unless he's been indicted

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Speaker 1: again by the time this episode drops, not impossible, send

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Speaker 1: another one ready to draw up. But for my last kind,

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Speaker 1: I think he's at like seventy eight charges felony charges

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Speaker 1: at the moment, so honestly.

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Speaker 3: He might get to triple digits. He's not all that far.

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Speaker 2: There's stuff like I didn't realize. Well, I guess I

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Speaker 2: knew intellectually that you could, that you could be charged

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Speaker 2: with conspiracy to do something and then also doing it,

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Speaker 2: but I don't think I know, Yeah, like, I don't

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Speaker 2: think I've ever seen a politician charged with both conspiracy

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Speaker 2: and the actual doing of the thing.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I hope at some point, assuming you know, we continue

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Speaker 1: to have something that resembles freedom of speech. We'll get

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Speaker 1: a good book about like how the whole process of

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Speaker 1: them had like figuring out how and when and weather

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Speaker 1: to actually like go after him. I mean, obviously we're

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Speaker 1: talking about both, like the FEDS and the dau in

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Speaker 1: New York, but I am interested in both of those

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Speaker 1: stories because there has to be there have to have

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Speaker 1: been some real interesting conversations. But yeah, we are right

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Speaker 1: now he we're looking at him. He's about to be

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Speaker 1: arraigned as we talk about this, for inciting an insurrection

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Speaker 1: at the capitol. So so that's pretty cool. Mia, you

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Speaker 1: wanted to to start us off here, I think.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And I think this is okay. So this

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Speaker 2: is an interesting indictment in that, like it somehow took

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Speaker 2: them about two years to like actually do the indictment.

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Speaker 2: That's like, hey, it's illegal to over try to overthrow

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Speaker 2: the government by installing yourself as president.

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Speaker 1: And in fairness, they don't have a lot of experience

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Speaker 1: charging people with that one.

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Speaker 2: Well, and we should actually mention they should Bush. Well,

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Speaker 2: here's the thing, Bush Bush. Actually we're gonna talk about

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Speaker 2: this more later, but like Bush actually got away with

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Speaker 2: this right, Like the last time a court ruled on

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Speaker 2: whether a president can use the courts to instalve themselves

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Speaker 2: as president. The Supreme Court was like, yeah, that's fine,

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Speaker 2: that's like no problem, Like, yeah, it's fine, you can.

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Speaker 2: You can have a mob show up and disrupt the

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Speaker 2: counting process and it's fine. But Trump like fucked up

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Speaker 2: and didn't do it the way you're supposed to. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and you know, there's something sort of I don't know.

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Speaker 2: So there's something I was thinking about while I was

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Speaker 2: reading this, which is like the English languish, doesn't I

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Speaker 2: think part of the issue here is like we don't.

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Speaker 4: I don't know.

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Speaker 2: The English. English doesn't even like have a good word

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Speaker 2: for like the kind of coup that Trump was doing.

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Speaker 2: Like there's a Spanish word which is auto golpe, which

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Speaker 2: is like yeah, Spanish, He's got a great one in

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Speaker 2: English and translates to self coup. And we're just like

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Speaker 2: we're done. It's like no, no, that sucks. That time sucks.

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Speaker 1: It's really I wish I had a better Trump voice

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Speaker 1: because then I could do on a golpe.

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Speaker 2: What is that is that?

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Speaker 1: Like a like a like at seven eleven, the big

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Speaker 1: sixty four rounds diet coach that you get yeah, but I.

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Speaker 2: Can't do it.

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Speaker 1: I can't do a good Trump. So that wasn't as

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Speaker 1: funny as it should have. Anyway, whatever me, please continue.

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Speaker 2: We had we had it, so you know, I I think,

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Speaker 2: you know, I think it's worth kind of thinking a

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Speaker 2: little bit and we're gonna sort of come back to

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Speaker 2: this as we go through this case. But I think

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Speaker 2: it's worth remembering that again, like everything Trump is doing

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Speaker 2: in this is based off of like is it is

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Speaker 2: based off of the sort of Bush thing into in

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Speaker 2: two thousand where he had a bunch of well, okay,

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Speaker 2: so a bunch of Bush's political operatives like stormed one

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Speaker 2: of the one of the places that was doing the

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Speaker 2: recount in Florida and stopped them from counting the votes

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Speaker 2: and then they just delayed and long enough that he

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Speaker 2: was able to get appointed.

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Speaker 1: Now the Brooks Brothers riot Roger Stone was a major

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Speaker 1: part of that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so we've we've done this. You know, we talked

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Speaker 2: about this on the show like the end of last year.

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Speaker 2: But but again, so the reason this worked though, right,

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Speaker 2: is that Bush made really really sure that there was

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Speaker 2: like a sound legal case sort of behind this entire thing.

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Speaker 2: He made he made really sure to like go through

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Speaker 2: all of the proper like checks and balances and.

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Speaker 4: Like blah blah blah blah.

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Speaker 2: But Trump just like didn't do this. And the result

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Speaker 2: of this is that Jack Smith, like finally two years later,

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Speaker 2: Jack Smith, who's this guy he was, he was appointed

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Speaker 2: by Merrick Garland to like take over these two Justice

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Speaker 2: Department cases about Trump. It has just indicted him with

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Speaker 2: this stuff he has. So he's been charged with with

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Speaker 2: three counts of criminal conspiracy and but I think his

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Speaker 2: accounted obstruction. So I'm going to go through what he's

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Speaker 2: actually been charged.

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Speaker 1: I want to note something real quick, which is that

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Speaker 1: another reason why it worked for Bush and it didn't

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Speaker 1: for Trump is that with Bush, it was legitimately the

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Speaker 1: election came down to Florida, right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, like it was.

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Speaker 1: It was extremely close. It was really just a couple

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Speaker 1: of counties in Florida. With Trump, he was not trying

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Speaker 1: to just sort of like jink jink part of a state.

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Speaker 1: It was like it was like Biden had a commanding lead. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah. It was a big dub for Uncle Joe.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and and you know, I so yeah, like obviously,

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Speaker 2: like Trump like just fails at this spectacularly and the

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Speaker 2: law is finally coming after him. They so that they're

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Speaker 2: charging him with conspiracy to defraud the United States, which

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Speaker 2: again is the thing I didn't know you could do.

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Speaker 3: And loan soundstrong, got that? Didn't he did?

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Speaker 4: He?

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, because USPS was his sponsor. So he was

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Speaker 3: defrauding the federal guns.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the don't yeah, don't, don't, don't you post.

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Speaker 1: Trump's the first guy who's not rad to get charged

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Speaker 1: with that. Sorry James, Okay, I didn't, I didn't.

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Speaker 3: Job Yeah, sorry everyone, I'm out.

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Speaker 2: So this this one is this is specifically like impairing

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Speaker 2: the election, like impairing like the the the votes of

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Speaker 2: the presidential election. The first one is mostly we'll talk

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Speaker 2: about this more a bit like the illegitimate electors thing

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Speaker 2: that he did. The second one is just him being

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Speaker 2: charged for They they finally found a thing the charge

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Speaker 2: him for doing January sixth, which was they charged him

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Speaker 2: with like conspiracy to obstruct an official preceding, and then

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Speaker 2: they got him also with obstruction obstructing the official proceeding,

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Speaker 2: which again seems like a kind of likeas is, I

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Speaker 2: don't know, it's not quite getting out the pop for

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Speaker 2: tax evasion but like you'd think they'd have something like

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Speaker 2: more prow.

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Speaker 1: Over through the government, attempting to make yourself a dictator bonaparteism.

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Speaker 1: Well it's not really bonapartism.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, like seditions, right there sedition that's a choice.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Rightoice, they got him on obstruction. Okay, sure, I

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Speaker 2: don't know, like this is I feel like our I

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Speaker 2: don't know, our legal system seems to be sort of

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Speaker 2: woefully unprepared for this.

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Speaker 1: Well, yeah, it's not. Again, in fairness, everyone has before

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Speaker 1: Trump was willing to play the game, right like we are, Like, obviously,

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Speaker 1: Jeorge W. Bush stole the fucking election, no argument there,

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Speaker 1: so did Nixon. But they did it with enough plausible deniability,

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Speaker 1: right that the elite were that there was not there

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Speaker 1: was not a fear among the quote unquote deep state

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Speaker 1: or you know, the people the elites in this country

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Speaker 1: that like this would obviously be someone overthrowing the government, right,

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Speaker 1: And Nixon's case, fucking LBJ like basically refused to go

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Speaker 1: after him for breaking the law and extended the Vietnam

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Speaker 1: War and committing treason because it would be bad in

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Speaker 1: his view for the country. Horrible mistake, obviously, and with

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Speaker 1: George w.

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Speaker 3: Bush.

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Speaker 1: You know, he had he had the court on his side,

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Speaker 1: and it like so there was there was enough plausible

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Speaker 1: deniability that you know, it was not like it is

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Speaker 1: with Trump where he was just like I'm gonna have

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Speaker 1: a mob like a capital.

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Speaker 3: You know, it's due in a ya cat.

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Speaker 2: You know, I was thinking about this, like the last

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Speaker 2: time someone actually did something like this, I think it

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Speaker 2: was the Corrupt Bargain in like eighteen seventy three. Were

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Speaker 2: just like like.

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Speaker 3: They there was this argument or the Wilmington coup.

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Speaker 2: Yeah well I mean I mean like yeah, but like

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Speaker 2: like on on on the presidential level of like literally

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Speaker 2: someone like like brother Ruby Hayes famously like they had

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Speaker 2: basically this incredible thing like both parties were like they

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Speaker 2: couldn't decide who was supposed to count the votes and

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Speaker 2: which whichever like part of the two parties counted the

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Speaker 2: votes was going to declare that they won the that

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Speaker 2: they won the election. And so they worked out this

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Speaker 2: like incredibly basically they worked out this compromise where like

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Speaker 2: the Republicans got Rutherford Behayes like in office, but they

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Speaker 2: also ended reconstruction. But that but and that that that

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Speaker 2: was a period that was long ago enough that like

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Speaker 2: you could do that ship without like involving the courts

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Speaker 2: or involving this sort of like massive state apparatus, and

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Speaker 2: you kind of like can't, I don't know, you can't

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Speaker 2: outside of like Illinois, you can't really be that corrupt anymore.

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Speaker 2: You have to sort of like.

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Speaker 3: The reason Sandrea goes called en run by the sea Maya.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, look, you have to you have to respect

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Speaker 1: you know, local culture with these kinds of things, and

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Speaker 1: and Illinois, it would actually be like an act of

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Speaker 1: genocide to try to make Illinois politics not incredibly Oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean right, like that that's the destruction of a people.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Like, like one of the hated political figures in

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Speaker 2: like the entire history of Illinois was this like state

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Speaker 2: senator who went down for corruption but went down for

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Speaker 2: like one hundred dollars of corruption and despise like one

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Speaker 2: of the most hated political figures in Illinois because he

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Speaker 2: only went down for he only did one hundred dollars

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Speaker 2: of crimes, whereas like our current governor did like a

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Speaker 2: bunch of really funny fraud and everyone loves him because

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Speaker 2: it's hilarious where he like he like he like took

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Speaker 2: all of the bathrooms out of one of his houses

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Speaker 2: so it wouldn't be classified the house.

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Speaker 3: That's that's kind of that's that's the guy you want

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Speaker 3: in charge your legatives.

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Speaker 1: When he sees a loophole, that's the guy. If we

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Speaker 1: ever have a corruption Olympics, that's our only chance at

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Speaker 1: beating the Russians. Illinois is gonna be our dream team.

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Speaker 2: Like Prince Kerry is the least corrupt governor I've had

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Speaker 2: in my lifetime. This is the least corrupt guy. He

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Speaker 2: is like like.

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Speaker 3: He is corrupt, but like he never shit.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's I don't know, all aways sort of amazing.

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Speaker 2: We should probably get back to this stuff. And so

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Speaker 2: the last thing you got was they got him of

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Speaker 2: like conspiracy against rights, so like a conspiracy against the

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Speaker 2: right to vote and have your vote counted, which sure, yeah,

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Speaker 2: do you do.

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Speaker 1: A bad thing to do? I think conspiracy?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's it's not good like all of

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Speaker 2: the things that he like they're accusing of, like he

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Speaker 2: pretty clearly did. Yeah. So I want to also talk

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Speaker 2: about the way this has been being talked about in

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Speaker 2: the media because one of the things is happening here

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Speaker 2: and this is This is sort of a trend with

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Speaker 2: all forms of like things that are in the written language,

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Speaker 2: is that everyone only reads the first like maybe one

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Speaker 2: chapter or like especially the first couple of pages of

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Speaker 2: something from any like written document. So this this is

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Speaker 2: why like all the like you know, the like abandon

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Speaker 2: all hope you you enter here from Dante's Inferno. That's

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Speaker 2: that's that's the reason. That's when everyone knows because it's

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Speaker 2: in like the first couple of chapters. And in this one,

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Speaker 2: with this case, the thing that everyone got to was

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Speaker 2: there's this very early part in the entire where the

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Speaker 2: guy's like, well, yeah, so like it is legal to

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Speaker 2: like lie about the election, like you have the free

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Speaker 2: speech right to do that. But then also Trump knowingly

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Speaker 2: lied about the election and use it to try to

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Speaker 2: like fraud do fraud. And everyone's getting really hung up

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Speaker 2: on this thing about like trying to like the court

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Speaker 2: having to prove that he knew he was lying, which

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Speaker 2: is kind of like an incidental thing to the actual

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Speaker 2: like like the actual stuff is getting charged for we'll

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Speaker 2: get into it, but like like it's not just that

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Speaker 2: he was lying that he was like actively trying to

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Speaker 2: get a bunch of state officials to like appoint him. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: but but you know, this has led to some just

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Speaker 2: like absolutely hilarious shit from Republicans who are like, none

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Speaker 2: of you can prove that Trump knew he was lying,

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Speaker 2: Like there's there's no way to know Trump is Trump

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Speaker 2: is so Trump that like you can't you can't, you

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Speaker 2: can't convict him lying because he maybe maybe you just

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Speaker 2: didn't know.

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Speaker 1: It's like, yeah, guys, that may not be the defense

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Speaker 1: you think it is.

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Speaker 3: No, this motherfucker is so dumb, you.

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Speaker 1: Can't like this guy didn't even know if he's full

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Speaker 1: of shit.

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Speaker 2: It's so good.

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Speaker 1: It's it's like arguing that somebody who shoots two or

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Speaker 1: three people to death is not guilty because he had

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Speaker 1: his eyes closed, was pulling the trigger, he didn't know

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Speaker 1: where he was shooting. That's not a crime.

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Speaker 2: The other one, the only one they've been pulling, is

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Speaker 2: the old like he didn't know it was illegal, which

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Speaker 2: I wish that that.

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Speaker 1: Is absolutely not how the law works. But this is

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Speaker 1: you know, who.

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Speaker 3: Made that not how the law works.

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Speaker 2: By the way, this is all you can tell them, Like,

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Speaker 2: none of these people have ever like had to deal

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Speaker 2: with the legal system at all ever, except for baby,

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Speaker 2: Like I don't know, like what are two of these

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Speaker 2: guys like probably caught weird charges for like unregulated securities

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Speaker 2: selling or some shit, but like.

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Speaker 1: Whom amongst us?

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Speaker 4: You know?

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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, but yeah. So so the Republican side of

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Speaker 2: it's been very funny. Okay, So before we get into

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Speaker 2: what like specific things they're going after Trump for, I

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Speaker 2: want to like talk about what his actual what Trump's

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Speaker 2: actual plan was, because I think a lot of it's

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Speaker 2: kind of been forgotten. So the first plan, and this

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Speaker 2: is the part that is that is not actually in

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Speaker 2: this trial at all, right, like not really likes his

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Speaker 2: initial plan to steal the election was that. Okay, So

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Speaker 2: one of the things that happened in twenty sixteen was

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Speaker 2: that like absentee voters like over like not a woman,

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Speaker 2: but absentee voters like swung enormously Democrat, right, And that

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Speaker 2: was one of the things Trump had been using to

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Speaker 2: prove there was like voter fraud or whatever. And then

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Speaker 2: you know, COVID happened, and so Trump had this, like

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Speaker 2: you know, had a plan which was like on a

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Speaker 2: what he's like, okay, so on election night, it's going

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Speaker 2: to look like I won because they're only going to

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Speaker 2: have counted, like they're only going to have counted the

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Speaker 2: votes that were like done in person, and those are

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Speaker 2: overwhelmingly Trump. And I remember like that night, like having

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Speaker 2: to tell all my friends like no, no, no, these

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Speaker 2: are not the real results. This is this is this

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Speaker 2: is just the in person votes. The absentie votes are coming.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And his initial plan was to try to just like

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Speaker 2: declare victory that night, basically trying to declear victory immediately

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Speaker 2: and then get everyone to stop counting. And that didn't work,

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Speaker 2: Like even like even Fox News would have eventually like

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Speaker 2: stopped playing along with it. Like this got to make

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Speaker 2: a huge trouble with Trump because they like called Arizona.

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Speaker 1: Yeah he's still pissed that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah now and again like this this didn't work, so

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Speaker 2: they didn't like he's not being tried for that, even

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Speaker 2: though that was also very blatantly steal the election. What

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Speaker 2: what they are charging him for was so after after

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Speaker 2: so there was like that stuff, and there was all

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Speaker 2: these like stop to vote mobs that kept showing up

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Speaker 2: in places, Yes, stop the count, right, yeah, yeah, it's

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Speaker 2: it's not the count. But then also in some places

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Speaker 2: they were like we need to count more and somebody.

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Speaker 2: Yeah stop, Yeah, it was like it was a it

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Speaker 2: was a whole thing. But you know what, once that fails, right,

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Speaker 2: Trump and his coup plotters are like legal people are

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Speaker 2: just sort of like freestyling it. And that's the part

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Speaker 2: where you get to the actual conspiracies that he's being

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Speaker 2: charged with here. But before before we get to those conspiracies,

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Speaker 2: do you know what else is a conspiracy?

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Speaker 3: The sence of products and services which you think will

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Speaker 3: improve your life.

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Speaker 2: How cheap they are, that's the conspiracy. Yeah, they've lowered

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Speaker 2: the price so much it is illegal.

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Speaker 3: Of all products and services.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Wow, that's defacial news. Incredible news. We're back, uh and

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Speaker 1: uh yeah, I've got some good news for you. We

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Speaker 1: are all sponsored this week by three shipping crates of

359
00:17:24,320 --> 00:17:28,719
Speaker 1: illegal contraband Marlboro cigarettes that are Buddy Jimmy over at

360
00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:32,200
Speaker 1: the Docks managed to get so six bucks of pack. Guys,

361
00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:35,240
Speaker 1: six bucks a pack, just you know, send them to

362
00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:38,800
Speaker 1: to Jimmy at ProtonMail dot com. He'll he'll mail you cigarettes.

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00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:40,960
Speaker 1: You know, you've venmo him the cash, He'll send you

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Speaker 1: some cigarettes.

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Speaker 3: There you go.

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Speaker 2: This is probably less illegal than anything we're talking about, right, now.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, almost certainly. Look, it's not against the law to

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Speaker 1: sell cigarettes that that you don't pay taxes on. I

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Speaker 1: think we can all agree that that's fine.

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Speaker 2: Actually, no, man, I think you legally can do that

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Speaker 2: if you're selling it in an airport, if you're.

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Speaker 1: Selling it in an airport. Yeah, if it's duty free, right.

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Speaker 1: And I, because I have such a childlike imagination, the

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Speaker 1: whole world is really my airport. Ergo, we can always

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Speaker 1: sell tax free cigarettes here at cool Zone Media.

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Speaker 3: That's why we have the small plane that takes off

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Speaker 3: from Roma's house every day. It's like a remote control plane.

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Speaker 1: But that's right, that's right. From all textle it technically counts.

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Speaker 1: And we are also allowed to run those those Joe

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Speaker 1: camel ads again, so you know, everybody who's nineties nostalgic,

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Speaker 1: there you go once you made it all right.

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Speaker 2: So the first conspiracy thing that he's getting charged with

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Speaker 2: is the like fake electors thing. He also has like

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Speaker 2: six unnamed co conspirators, and we know we probably know

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Speaker 2: who like five of them are. So the first one,

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Speaker 2: obviously is Rudy Giuliotti, who is having the time of

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Speaker 2: his life. Question Mark he is he is like he

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Speaker 2: is melting so funny TV Like it's the second one

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Speaker 2: is probably John Eastman. And this is interesting because Eastman

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Speaker 2: is the guy who he's like the legal mind behind

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Speaker 2: in January sixth. He's the guy who like thinks that

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Speaker 2: he's found a loophole in the law that allows like

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Speaker 2: the vice president to refuse to certify the election. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and so this is I don't want to make something

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Speaker 2: clear at the outset, like he does not have like

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Speaker 2: Pence does not have the power to do this.

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Speaker 1: You're not allowed to do that.

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Speaker 2: No, no, like they can't do this right like like

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Speaker 2: this is if Pence had gone along with this, that

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Speaker 2: would have been a coup, right like that, Yeah, they

401
00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:45,720
Speaker 2: call this a coup.

402
00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:48,760
Speaker 1: Like there's not a clause in the constitution that says

403
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Speaker 1: unless this guy doesn't want to have an election, this.

404
00:19:52,119 --> 00:19:58,880
Speaker 3: Is not right. It's seemed like admiralty flag ta legal conspiracy.

405
00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:06,159
Speaker 3: That's yeah, Yeah, guaranteed it came from Reddit before he found.

406
00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:10,720
Speaker 2: It's it's some it's some real bullshit like this somehow Again,

407
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Speaker 2: this is the legal basis for what they were trying

408
00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:15,720
Speaker 2: to do in January sixth. I I don't know words.

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Speaker 2: Words fail me, like tragedy is farce of the Brooks

410
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Speaker 2: Brothers riot, I guess, but like this is like farst

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Speaker 2: number three. I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I think the first one. The first one was Nixon

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Speaker 1: extending the Vietnam War in order to uh win his election.

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00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:35,480
Speaker 1: The farce was the Brooks Brothers riot. And now we're

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Speaker 1: at like lead poisoning brain damage.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, like this is this is this is Marks failed

417
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Speaker 2: to consider that you could have a third or fourth.

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Speaker 6: Farce, like he only got to one.

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Speaker 2: So speaking speaking of farce, So the third the third

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Speaker 2: Koke s Buwer is probably Sidney Powell, who apparently the

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Speaker 2: last I heard about Sidney Powell, He's currently like owns

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Speaker 2: a bed and breakfast and spends all of his time

423
00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:03,160
Speaker 2: I'm talking with his guest about the Trump administration. So things

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Speaker 2: are going great for Sidney Powell, who is on.

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Speaker 1: A Trump more or less what I would like him

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Speaker 1: to do.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, I mean if you can just keep sticking

428
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Speaker 3: to doing that, yeah great.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So the fourth guy is Jeffrey Clark, who doesn't

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Speaker 2: really matter. The fifth guy I just want to like, Okay,

431
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Speaker 2: so I I partially there's only like only really Giuliani

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Speaker 2: Eastman in Powell matter. But the fifth guy is named

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Speaker 2: Kenneth Chelsea Bro.

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Speaker 1: Which that's okay, now you're fucking with us. Now, that's

435
00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:37,840
Speaker 1: not a name. That's not a name I got nothing.

436
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Speaker 2: I don't know, like a name they have like dug

437
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Speaker 2: up members of like the old Chelsea arisocracy that like

438
00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:49,159
Speaker 2: I I got, I don't know.

439
00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:51,920
Speaker 1: I've never never been this angry in my life. That's

440
00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:55,199
Speaker 1: not a naked ship now, like that's that.

441
00:21:55,800 --> 00:22:01,560
Speaker 3: Okay, it's not Cheese Bro, it's Chelsea Brow. I name

442
00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:02,879
Speaker 3: no idea, it's it's.

443
00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:05,720
Speaker 2: C H E s E Bro chessa Bro.

444
00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:07,760
Speaker 4: I don't know.

445
00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:11,680
Speaker 1: There's no version of how you outside of Boston.

446
00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:12,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, I.

447
00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:17,240
Speaker 3: Know Bro?

448
00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:27,200
Speaker 2: Is he Bro? Okay? So we should also she's really

449
00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:28,879
Speaker 2: that's so bad?

450
00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:31,720
Speaker 3: Yeah no, I know a guy from Central California with

451
00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:32,680
Speaker 3: that name that.

452
00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:36,720
Speaker 2: Is that is viscerally upsetting. Okay, So just speaking of

453
00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:40,560
Speaker 2: viscerally upsetting, So we should find everyone how we should

454
00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:43,520
Speaker 2: remind everyone how American elections work because it's it's really

455
00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:46,679
Speaker 2: one of the worst systems anyone's ever developed. So okay. So,

456
00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:49,280
Speaker 2: like as as most people probably know, you don't directly

457
00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:50,160
Speaker 2: elect the president.

458
00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:51,200
Speaker 4: What you do.

459
00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:56,560
Speaker 2: Instead is each each state, like you vote, well, okay,

460
00:22:56,600 --> 00:23:01,040
Speaker 2: so sorry, let's run this up. Each state selects ecs. Now,

461
00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:02,920
Speaker 2: there's nothing in the constitution that says you have to

462
00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:07,479
Speaker 2: select electors by like voting for them. It's just that

463
00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:10,120
Speaker 2: every state chose to do that. There's like a whole

464
00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:13,840
Speaker 2: crank theory of Republican like legal jurisprudences where they're trying

465
00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:15,520
Speaker 2: to use that to be able to just like not

466
00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:19,920
Speaker 2: basically not have normal elections. But you know so because

467
00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:21,840
Speaker 2: this is like dog shit, right, Like, it's bad for

468
00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:23,879
Speaker 2: a number of reasons. The first obvious one is that

469
00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:27,200
Speaker 2: like this means you the US does not have one person,

470
00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:31,240
Speaker 2: one vote at all. Like the entire American political system

471
00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:33,600
Speaker 2: is just a giant violation of the deference of one person,

472
00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:36,359
Speaker 2: one vote because people's votes are just worth more than

473
00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:39,520
Speaker 2: others because of the electors. The second thing that's really bad,

474
00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:43,399
Speaker 2: right is again, like those individual electors can technically vote

475
00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:46,360
Speaker 2: like however they want to, So you could you could

476
00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:48,280
Speaker 2: be an elector who's posted to vote for someone and

477
00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:51,280
Speaker 2: then vote for someone else. It's actually happened. Although I'm

478
00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:53,480
Speaker 2: not mattering, but like one of Gore's electors I think

479
00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:56,720
Speaker 2: defected to what's his name? The third guy who ran

480
00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:00,000
Speaker 2: I can't remember his name?

481
00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:05,160
Speaker 3: Someone in twenty sixteen or sorry guy, yeah, someone did

482
00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:09,520
Speaker 3: in twenty sixteen as well. I think rogue electa. There's

483
00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:11,159
Speaker 3: a little bit of like, I don't know, this is

484
00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:12,680
Speaker 3: a good I was going to talk about different between

485
00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:16,400
Speaker 3: procedural and substantive democracy. I could talk about it now

486
00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:18,320
Speaker 3: or later, but I think it relates to what you're

487
00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:23,200
Speaker 3: talking about. Sure, yeah, no, do it now. But what

488
00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:26,680
Speaker 3: out Yeah there were there were ten in twenty sixteen. Wow,

489
00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:29,359
Speaker 3: face Spotted Eagle is the one I'm thinking of. Someone

490
00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:32,879
Speaker 3: voted for face Spotted Eagle. But yeah, okay, So one

491
00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:34,719
Speaker 3: thing I wanted to talk about, like with relation to

492
00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:37,600
Speaker 3: what you're saying here, is like the difference between procedural

493
00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:40,880
Speaker 3: and substantive democracy, because I think it's really important when

494
00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:43,439
Speaker 3: we're looking at like what's happening in the US. So

495
00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:46,360
Speaker 3: when we talk about like a lot of this language

496
00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:49,480
Speaker 3: comes from the like nineteen nineties obsession with transitioned to

497
00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:53,000
Speaker 3: democracy that happens a lot in political science, right, like

498
00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:55,160
Speaker 3: and history to an extent, where we were looking at

499
00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:59,280
Speaker 3: these like post Soviet countries and post colonial countries and

500
00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:02,800
Speaker 3: as they like move move towards this like what's considered

501
00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:06,200
Speaker 3: a democracy in the kind of neoliberal frame we talked

502
00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:09,640
Speaker 3: about procedural and substantive democracy. So procedural democracy are things

503
00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:12,919
Speaker 3: which have the institutions and procedures in place. You vote,

504
00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:18,160
Speaker 3: there are elections, the ballots are cast, and that results

505
00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:20,359
Speaker 3: in this case the elector is going to electoral college

506
00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:22,320
Speaker 3: and the e actual college deliver as a president. And

507
00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:25,480
Speaker 3: then substantive democracy is where people have a substantive say,

508
00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:29,880
Speaker 3: a means of deciding who is in charge, right who

509
00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:32,399
Speaker 3: runs a state, And the US is moving further and

510
00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:36,560
Speaker 3: further from substantive democracy, Like it's been interesting to see

511
00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:39,679
Speaker 3: people bringing that like because of course that nineteen nineties

512
00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:41,800
Speaker 3: discourse was centered heavily in the US right as like

513
00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:44,920
Speaker 3: the paragon of democratic virtue, and then it was used

514
00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:46,879
Speaker 3: to condescend to other countries and be like, oh, you're

515
00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:51,199
Speaker 3: not a fully consolidated democracy with them, Lindzen Stepan. If

516
00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:52,679
Speaker 3: people want to look up Linds and step Kind, if

517
00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:55,080
Speaker 3: they're reboard, they can. But they talk about like a

518
00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:59,000
Speaker 3: consolidated democracy being one where democracy is the only game

519
00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:02,439
Speaker 3: in town, and all of this stuff like was heavily

520
00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:05,280
Speaker 3: based on kind of aspiring to be the US, right

521
00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:07,720
Speaker 3: countries in Africa East when you're perspiring to be an

522
00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:09,840
Speaker 3: American democracy. And it's very funny now to see that

523
00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:13,720
Speaker 3: the US doesn't fit most definitions of a substantive democracy

524
00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:16,200
Speaker 3: or a consolidated one, Like it's not the only game

525
00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:18,520
Speaker 3: in town for millions of Americans anymore.

526
00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:19,680
Speaker 2: Now.

527
00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:21,760
Speaker 3: It's highly amusing.

528
00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:26,119
Speaker 1: My other amusing is what I would call it, absolutely James.

529
00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:28,399
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's funny. It's just funny. Nothing bad will happen,

530
00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:29,920
Speaker 3: it's fine.

531
00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:32,439
Speaker 2: Yeah. My other favorite example of like those of like

532
00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:35,960
Speaker 2: how bullshit those like democracy theorists were was like every

533
00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:38,439
Speaker 2: single one of those people the moment that Zapetas the

534
00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:40,919
Speaker 2: uprising happened, just like immediately shut the fuck up and

535
00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:43,960
Speaker 2: never mentioned it ever, Like it just does not come

536
00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:45,760
Speaker 2: up like in the thing.

537
00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:49,159
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean a lot of the like, yeah, a

538
00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:50,960
Speaker 3: lot of them really had a lot of them also

539
00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:54,879
Speaker 3: were like too busy looking at things, and like in Spain,

540
00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:58,239
Speaker 3: right people looked at Spain's quote unquote transition as one

541
00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:01,080
Speaker 3: of the earlier models and then went on to model

542
00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:05,840
Speaker 3: things off Spain. Spain is at best an incomplete transition now, right,

543
00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:08,320
Speaker 3: people paying attention to the most recent elections will maybe

544
00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:11,320
Speaker 3: have noticed this, Like Spain is Spain is not a

545
00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:13,359
Speaker 3: country where democracy is the only game in town. Right,

546
00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:15,239
Speaker 3: They had an attempted to cop it in nineteen eighty one,

547
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:18,440
Speaker 3: and so like then they're kind of looking backwards off

548
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:22,040
Speaker 3: something because Spain was satisfactorly democratic for them, but it

549
00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:26,480
Speaker 3: certainly wasn't for a lot of Spanish people. So yeah,

550
00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:27,000
Speaker 3: not a big fani.

551
00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:29,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I don't know about you guys, but I

552
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:34,160
Speaker 1: think there's nothing wrong with the way we did. Side

553
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:35,160
Speaker 1: things are democracies.

554
00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:38,960
Speaker 3: God gave it on the tablets to some old white men.

555
00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:42,480
Speaker 3: You'll have slaves, and that that is good.

556
00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:43,879
Speaker 4: Great.

557
00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:46,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, It's been funny also watching those people trying to

558
00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:48,399
Speaker 2: like actually go back and look at like at what

559
00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:51,240
Speaker 2: point the US became like a democracy in any real sense,

560
00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:54,600
Speaker 2: And it's like, really like, if you're going to do

561
00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:57,280
Speaker 2: this seriously, you cannot argue that it was a democracy

562
00:27:57,359 --> 00:28:00,119
Speaker 2: until like after Jim Crow, so like really like like

563
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:04,520
Speaker 2: the sixties and even then, so like, I don't know,

564
00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:07,000
Speaker 2: like there's been a lot of attempts to sort of

565
00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:09,560
Speaker 2: make this stuff work. But then also you have all

566
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:13,520
Speaker 2: of this bullshit. Where again, like because because it's based

567
00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:15,840
Speaker 2: on this elector shit, you can like this is how

568
00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:17,399
Speaker 2: Trump was able to like to try to do all

569
00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:22,199
Speaker 2: this very weird stuff. And this is the sort of

570
00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:23,840
Speaker 2: you know, this is the part where we get into

571
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:28,280
Speaker 2: like Trump's second plan, which his plan, and this is

572
00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:31,160
Speaker 2: the one he's actually getting charged for. So his thing

573
00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:33,000
Speaker 2: was he was trying to get states to just like

574
00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:37,560
Speaker 2: ignore the popular vote and decertified. So there's this process

575
00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:40,840
Speaker 2: where like there's a day on which like the electors

576
00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:44,720
Speaker 2: that do the electoral votes are like certified, and so

577
00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:46,160
Speaker 2: his he was he was trying to do a couple

578
00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:48,440
Speaker 2: of things before that. He was trying to like get

579
00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:51,880
Speaker 2: the actual electors like not certified and then have like

580
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:54,480
Speaker 2: another set of electors and pointed that would vote for him,

581
00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:56,920
Speaker 2: and then that didn't work, and so he was trying

582
00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:59,920
Speaker 2: to get so like on that same day, there were

583
00:28:59,920 --> 00:29:03,080
Speaker 2: also a bunch of slates of electors that like like

584
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:05,800
Speaker 2: did like a fake appointment thing, basically like trying to

585
00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:11,560
Speaker 2: claim they were the real electors in a bunch of states. Yeah,

586
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:14,800
Speaker 2: I think, yeah, And this one was funny too because

587
00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:17,479
Speaker 2: like some of the people who were like who like

588
00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:20,360
Speaker 2: were on these slates, like didn't know that they weren't

589
00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:23,400
Speaker 2: the real electors, like they had just been told that

590
00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:26,360
Speaker 2: they were the real so they like unwittingly were like

591
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:31,120
Speaker 2: part of this coup attempt. And so the the indictment,

592
00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:33,400
Speaker 2: so that that that that's the second part, and so

593
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:35,160
Speaker 2: that also was kind of falling apart, and so then

594
00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:37,479
Speaker 2: we get to the sort of third thing, which is

595
00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:40,720
Speaker 2: this entire effort to get Mike Pence to not certify

596
00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:43,720
Speaker 2: the election or so that district versions one was that

597
00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:46,040
Speaker 2: he doesn't certify the election at all, and the second

598
00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:49,800
Speaker 2: version of the conspiracy was like, so there were these

599
00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:51,800
Speaker 2: states set up where Trump had put like a second

600
00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:54,680
Speaker 2: slate of electors, and the plan was to like have

601
00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:57,680
Speaker 2: those are like contested states, and so the plan was

602
00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:01,080
Speaker 2: to have Pence say that like none of those states

603
00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:03,760
Speaker 2: had actually voudly selected electors, so their votes don't matter,

604
00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:05,960
Speaker 2: and then just like say that Trump won the election.

605
00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:08,080
Speaker 2: And none of this makes any And the reason this

606
00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:10,360
Speaker 2: is like incomprehensible is like none of this makes any sense, right,

607
00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:16,040
Speaker 2: Like this is all just gibberish, that's bullshit. Yeah, but

608
00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:22,800
Speaker 2: but into this mess drops Danny Quail. Now I think everyone,

609
00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:26,120
Speaker 2: so you two know who Daddy Quail is. I I'm

610
00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:28,760
Speaker 2: realizing I was running into people when I when I've

611
00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:30,600
Speaker 2: been talking about this sort of story I'm about to tell.

612
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:33,080
Speaker 2: Who don't know who Danny Quayle is. And I feel

613
00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:35,960
Speaker 2: I have a moral obligation to introduce this guy.

614
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:40,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, give the man his full name here, James Danforth Quail.

615
00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:43,200
Speaker 3: Oh god, I didn't know his name was dann fourth

616
00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:48,760
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, oh yeah. Determinism at its finest.

617
00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:52,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, so Quail, I think it is probably most famous

618
00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:59,640
Speaker 2: for So she was Bush's vice president, right, and so okay,

619
00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:01,440
Speaker 2: So I want to tell the actual folls. So the

620
00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:03,680
Speaker 2: common version of the story that happens is that he

621
00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:05,240
Speaker 2: doesn't know he didn't know how to sell potato, and

622
00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:07,760
Speaker 2: that's true, but the actual story is so much funnier

623
00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:11,920
Speaker 2: than that. So okay, Quail is So okay, Quail is

624
00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:14,760
Speaker 2: is George W. Bush's vice president. Right. It's nineteen ninety two,

625
00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:16,800
Speaker 2: like the like they're on, they're like starting to go

626
00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:21,400
Speaker 2: into election season, and Quail goes to like this spelling

627
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:24,000
Speaker 2: bee that's happening in this elementary school to like promote

628
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:30,800
Speaker 2: some random harm. Yeah, and so so kid. He asked

629
00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:33,360
Speaker 2: this kid to spell potato, and the kid walks up

630
00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:36,200
Speaker 2: and the kid spells potato correctly. This kid is like

631
00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:43,680
Speaker 2: eight right, this is like it is like mighty so

632
00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:47,880
Speaker 2: and then I Quail looks at it. It looks at

633
00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:50,240
Speaker 2: the Apparently they had a card that was spelled wrong.

634
00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:52,520
Speaker 2: But Quail doesn't realize that the card is spelled wrong,

635
00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:55,040
Speaker 2: so he goes to the board. He looks at the

636
00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:56,560
Speaker 2: kid and goes but you need to ask someone to

637
00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:59,560
Speaker 2: the end. And this kid is just baffled because she's

638
00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:00,480
Speaker 2: spelled it, know correct?

639
00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:04,480
Speaker 1: What you mean? Are you talking about the vice president

640
00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:08,080
Speaker 1: of the United That kid's an anarchist. Now, like there's there's.

641
00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:10,440
Speaker 2: No way someone did a follow up with him. Apparently

642
00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:12,480
Speaker 2: he liked he's like a small business owner or something,

643
00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:14,080
Speaker 2: and he just tells the story all the time.

644
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:18,640
Speaker 1: Very funny, but okay, this was at a period of

645
00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:22,240
Speaker 1: American history like this, like is one of the reasons

646
00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:22,959
Speaker 1: that George H. W.

647
00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:26,880
Speaker 2: Bush didn't win re election. Like this broke twelve unbroken

648
00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:31,200
Speaker 2: years of Republicans winning every single election based he.

649
00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:33,560
Speaker 3: Does seem like a plant, Like I don't know if

650
00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:35,120
Speaker 3: you've got some of his other ridiculous.

651
00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:38,720
Speaker 2: Oh I'm this quote. Okay, so unless you think Quail

652
00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:40,920
Speaker 2: just had like one flub, Like, no, he's just like this.

653
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:43,840
Speaker 2: I'm gonna read a couple of So there's like a

654
00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:45,960
Speaker 2: bunch of people who spent a bunch of time extensively

655
00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:48,360
Speaker 2: documenting Dan Quayle quotes because that's what you did on

656
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:52,240
Speaker 2: the internet in the nineties. Yeah, okay, the Holocaust was

657
00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:54,720
Speaker 2: an obscene period in our nation's history, I mean this

658
00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:57,480
Speaker 2: century's history. But we all lived in this century. I

659
00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:00,400
Speaker 2: didn't live in this century.

660
00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:04,280
Speaker 1: I feel like I want to diagram that one, like

661
00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:07,000
Speaker 1: whats there?

662
00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:10,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, cocaine was really kicking in.

663
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:12,640
Speaker 2: You know. She has this kind of in the same

664
00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:14,760
Speaker 2: way that Trump has like this cant in which he

665
00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:18,200
Speaker 2: does all of his incorporateensiable things, Like Quail also has

666
00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:21,080
Speaker 2: a can't like he does this kind of thing where

667
00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:22,959
Speaker 2: he does the like he says a sentence and then

668
00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:25,080
Speaker 2: he says, I mean something else, I mean something else,

669
00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:27,560
Speaker 2: and it does nothing. The follows from the other one.

670
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:29,920
Speaker 2: So she he does one of the other famous ones.

671
00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:33,600
Speaker 2: Why he has always been a pivotal, pivotal role in

672
00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:35,480
Speaker 2: the Pacific. It is in the Pacific. It is a

673
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:37,280
Speaker 2: part of the United States. That is an island that

674
00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:38,040
Speaker 2: is right there.

675
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:39,600
Speaker 3: Wow.

676
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:44,640
Speaker 1: Fuck, that's very Famously, he went on to write large

677
00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:46,880
Speaker 1: portions of Wikipedia, so that that makes.

678
00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:47,440
Speaker 3: A lot of sense.

679
00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:48,480
Speaker 2: It's so good.

680
00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:52,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, quails are in Wikipedia calls him an intellectual, lightweight

681
00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:57,200
Speaker 3: and incompetent individual. Well it's not untrue.

682
00:33:57,360 --> 00:33:58,719
Speaker 1: Pretty hard to argue about that.

683
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:02,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, Mars is essentially in the same orbit. Mars is

684
00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:05,800
Speaker 2: somewhat the same distance from the Sun, which is very important.

685
00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:09,200
Speaker 2: We have seen pictures where the canals we believe and water.

686
00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:12,440
Speaker 2: If there was water, that means there is oxygen. If oxygen,

687
00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:13,600
Speaker 2: that means we can breathe.

688
00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:18,719
Speaker 1: Oh god, Okay, Wow, there's a lot of science coming

689
00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:19,840
Speaker 1: out of that statement.

690
00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:24,280
Speaker 2: This man was vice president of the United States. We

691
00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:26,879
Speaker 2: have a firm commitment to NATO. We are a part

692
00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:29,000
Speaker 2: of NATO. We have a firm commitment to Europe. We

693
00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:33,319
Speaker 2: are a part of Europe. Sure, yeah, he's so good.

694
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:36,239
Speaker 1: Well, you see, Maya, you just you you were not

695
00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:39,240
Speaker 1: you are not up on your your geographic history. Because

696
00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:42,760
Speaker 1: the mountain ranges in Scotland are the same mountain range

697
00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:47,120
Speaker 1: as the Appellachians, so technically we are in Europe.

698
00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:49,640
Speaker 3: In many ways.

699
00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:52,680
Speaker 2: Damn Okay, I've been styled on by Dan Quail.

700
00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:56,799
Speaker 1: There you go, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, now.

701
00:34:56,560 --> 00:34:58,880
Speaker 2: Okay, other than the fact that it's really funny, like

702
00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:01,440
Speaker 2: why why am I talking about Danny Quail And the

703
00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:04,640
Speaker 2: answer is that, Okay. So remember Trump needs for his

704
00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:08,400
Speaker 2: like completely nonsense thing to like even kind of go

705
00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:10,640
Speaker 2: to the next step of failing. He needs to convince

706
00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:13,799
Speaker 2: Mike Pence and not certify the election. And Pence is

707
00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:16,520
Speaker 2: like legitimately going back and forward on this. He's like

708
00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:18,480
Speaker 2: he's having this like moral dilemma and like he like

709
00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:22,000
Speaker 2: wants to do it, but he's he's having problems making decisions,

710
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:25,400
Speaker 2: and so he calls his old friend Danny Quayle. And

711
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:28,439
Speaker 2: I think this is a really fascinating moment of sort

712
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:31,840
Speaker 2: of you know, like this, I think it's really fascinating

713
00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:36,000
Speaker 2: indication of like how off the rails everything has gotten

714
00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:39,279
Speaker 2: since we released to twenty sixteen, but like twenty twenty

715
00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:41,359
Speaker 2: sort of just like accelerates the magnitude of this, which

716
00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:44,200
Speaker 2: is that like Quail is like the human symbol of

717
00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:46,880
Speaker 2: the decrepitness of American politics in the eighties and nineties, right,

718
00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:49,239
Speaker 2: Like this is a guy who makes like s Nile

719
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:52,759
Speaker 2: Reguan look like a genius. And in twenty twenty and

720
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:55,040
Speaker 2: twenty twenty one, like Pence is supposed to be one

721
00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:57,120
Speaker 2: of the like quote unquote adults in the room in

722
00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:01,239
Speaker 2: twenty twenty and Pence goes to Quail and is like,

723
00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:04,160
Speaker 2: what I need. I need to do this coup, Like

724
00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:06,000
Speaker 2: I don't have a choice. I'm under so much pressure.

725
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:08,800
Speaker 2: And Danny Quail, the man who can't spell potato, instantly

726
00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:10,640
Speaker 2: is like, no, what are you talking about, Like you

727
00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:15,440
Speaker 2: can't do this coup, like obviously can't do this, and

728
00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:18,200
Speaker 2: and Pence Pence just like argues with him. He's like no, no,

729
00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:19,719
Speaker 2: Like he keeps arguing with him, like no, I have

730
00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:21,120
Speaker 2: to do what I have to do it, and Quails

731
00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:23,600
Speaker 2: like what are you talking about? Like of course you

732
00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:26,879
Speaker 2: can't like not certify the election, Like what what are

733
00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:31,120
Speaker 2: you doing? And this actually works and this convinces Pence

734
00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:34,719
Speaker 2: not to not to actually certify the election, And so

735
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:37,240
Speaker 2: you know, we we have reached a point in history

736
00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:41,839
Speaker 2: where like you can make an argument, I don't think

737
00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:44,280
Speaker 2: it's correct, but you can make an argument that Danny

738
00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:46,960
Speaker 2: fucking Quail saved the American Republic.

739
00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:54,920
Speaker 3: They say it's just from two Republican presidentst I just

740
00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:55,520
Speaker 3: I don't know.

741
00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:58,080
Speaker 2: I can't get over this. It's just like Danny Quail

742
00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:01,520
Speaker 2: is the voice of reason and modern ration and like,

743
00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:05,759
Speaker 2: oh god, I don't know this country.

744
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:08,120
Speaker 3: It's bizarre. The whole thing is is bizarre.

745
00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:12,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's bleak. We should do an ad brick.

746
00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:14,080
Speaker 2: I don't have a pivot there.

747
00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:20,760
Speaker 1: Speaking of auto golpe gulp down these products automatic maggs.

748
00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:24,839
Speaker 2: Cool, and we are we are back to a bit

749
00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:28,560
Speaker 2: more fraud. So okay, the other thing is being yeah,

750
00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:31,160
Speaker 2: this is actually wait, this is actually fraud. No, I

751
00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:33,080
Speaker 2: guess this is the fraud one. It's still a technically

752
00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:33,720
Speaker 2: a fraud one.

753
00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:35,440
Speaker 1: So that's part of it at least.

754
00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:38,399
Speaker 2: Yeah. So so we we've reached the like third and

755
00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:42,239
Speaker 2: fourth indictments. It's actually really funny if you go read

756
00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:44,760
Speaker 2: the thing, all of the actual texts of the indictment

757
00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:48,080
Speaker 2: with the evidence and stuff is all under the first indictment,

758
00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:50,480
Speaker 2: and then the second, third, and fourth ones are like, yeah,

759
00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:52,960
Speaker 2: go refer to ex paragraphs as like the first one.

760
00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:55,279
Speaker 2: So there's the second, third, and fourth like charges are

761
00:37:55,400 --> 00:38:00,640
Speaker 2: like like one paragraph long. But basically this is about

762
00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:03,359
Speaker 2: the January sixth stuff. They spent much time listing like

763
00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:06,520
Speaker 2: all of the random stuff that Trump said about the

764
00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:08,440
Speaker 2: election that was not true. They also have a very

765
00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:10,680
Speaker 2: funny list of all of the people who told him

766
00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:14,840
Speaker 2: that like this stuff wasn't true, which includes Mike Pence,

767
00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:18,200
Speaker 2: the leadership of the Justice Department, the Director of National Intelligence,

768
00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:21,440
Speaker 2: the head of SISA, which is the Department of Homeland

769
00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:25,200
Speaker 2: Security Cybersecurity Agency, a bunch of White House attorneys, like

770
00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:28,720
Speaker 2: his own staff at all of his politicians was backing

771
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:32,200
Speaker 2: He's like every single person was like this is not real,

772
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:35,480
Speaker 2: and Trump was like, no, no, no, hold on, we

773
00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:38,239
Speaker 2: can still win the election, you know. Okay. So there's

774
00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:40,440
Speaker 2: like that stuff, and then there's the stuff that like

775
00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:44,799
Speaker 2: he like specifically did to like try to pressure these

776
00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:50,600
Speaker 2: state politicians into like certifying him as president. So like

777
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:53,239
Speaker 2: they he had a bunch of calls, and like his

778
00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:55,520
Speaker 2: like staff people had a bunch of calls. We were

779
00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:58,920
Speaker 2: like they tried to get like that the Speaker of

780
00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:01,880
Speaker 2: the House in Arizona to do this by saying there

781
00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:04,600
Speaker 2: was voting fraud, and the Speaker of the House was like, okay,

782
00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:09,040
Speaker 2: there's no we haven't found any fraud. I'm gonna I'm

783
00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:11,600
Speaker 2: gonna read from the thing co conspirator to concluded that

784
00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:13,840
Speaker 2: he quote didn't know enough about the facts on the

785
00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:16,360
Speaker 2: ground in Arizona, but nonetheless told the Speaker of the

786
00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:19,160
Speaker 2: House to decertify and quote let the court sort it out,

787
00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:22,000
Speaker 2: sort it out. So again, this is this is this

788
00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:25,480
Speaker 2: is the Roger Stone strategy, but done like yes, so

789
00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:26,800
Speaker 2: unbelievably poorly.

790
00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:28,959
Speaker 3: Yeah.

791
00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:32,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, So, And there's a bunch of sort of like lists.

792
00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:34,400
Speaker 2: There's like all this list of like this like Trump

793
00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:38,080
Speaker 2: does like identical stuff in like Michigan and Pennsylvania. There's

794
00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:40,080
Speaker 2: like that phone call in Georgia he gets in trouble

795
00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:43,600
Speaker 2: for some from Wisconsin. There's another thing he tried to

796
00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:45,359
Speaker 2: do which I actually hadn't heard about this one.

797
00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:46,600
Speaker 4: I don't know.

798
00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:48,520
Speaker 2: It's either I just forgot it or I just never

799
00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:51,399
Speaker 2: ran into it, where he was trying to like use

800
00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:54,960
Speaker 2: Justice Department letterhead and like the signature of the Acting

801
00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:58,279
Speaker 2: Attorney General to like send a fate like pretend to

802
00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:00,600
Speaker 2: send a letter from the Justice Department to a bunch

803
00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:02,960
Speaker 2: of states to tell them there was fraud and get

804
00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:04,279
Speaker 2: them to like amazing.

805
00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:07,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, since I'm sick and I can't come to school.

806
00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:08,279
Speaker 5: Yeah.

807
00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:09,960
Speaker 1: And the funny thing is the problem is that they

808
00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:12,480
Speaker 1: so they try to there's a lot that's funny about that.

809
00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:14,719
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna I'm not gonna see it. Yes, we

810
00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:16,320
Speaker 1: gotta plaralize that fucker.

811
00:40:16,640 --> 00:40:20,120
Speaker 2: It's so good. And the scheme falls apart because again

812
00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:23,120
Speaker 2: the guy Trump appoints it as the acting Attorney general

813
00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:27,920
Speaker 2: is like, no, like, you cannot just department and they

814
00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:30,160
Speaker 2: keep trying to argue with him and it keeps not working.

815
00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:34,959
Speaker 2: And this is where we get to another part of

816
00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:36,800
Speaker 2: this whole thing that I this has been getting a

817
00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:40,000
Speaker 2: lot of press attention and it's interesting, but I think

818
00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:42,640
Speaker 2: there's more to the story that people haven't been talking about,

819
00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:45,759
Speaker 2: which is so the guy who's probably Jeffrey Clark like

820
00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:48,280
Speaker 2: gets into an argument with the deputy White House Council

821
00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:51,880
Speaker 2: and the wut White House Council is you know, is telling?

822
00:40:52,680 --> 00:40:54,840
Speaker 2: Is telling Jeffrey Clark, who thinks one of Trumps lawyers

823
00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:56,920
Speaker 2: is telling him like like Trump can't stay in office.

824
00:40:56,920 --> 00:40:58,719
Speaker 2: Like there's no version of this where Trump stays in

825
00:40:58,719 --> 00:41:02,480
Speaker 2: office after January twentieth, and he says, quote, there would

826
00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:05,600
Speaker 2: be riots in every major American City. And then the

827
00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:09,680
Speaker 2: guy who's probably Clark says, quote, well, Deputy White House Counsel,

828
00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:13,040
Speaker 2: that's why there's an Insurrection Act. And this is where

829
00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:15,240
Speaker 2: we need to get to another a couple of interesting

830
00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:16,000
Speaker 2: parts of the story.

831
00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:20,040
Speaker 1: One, you know, one clear, when you're saying that's why

832
00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:23,319
Speaker 1: we have an insurrection Act, you're saying, we can just

833
00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:27,000
Speaker 1: shoot those people, yeah, in the streets, Like that is

834
00:41:27,040 --> 00:41:29,880
Speaker 1: what that statement means. Yeah, and that is what the

835
00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:32,120
Speaker 1: stakes were. Everybody was out in the streets in twenty

836
00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:33,200
Speaker 1: twenty was aware of this.

837
00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:36,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, and yeah, you know, this is the thing I

838
00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:37,680
Speaker 2: kind of want to talk about, which is that, like

839
00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:42,080
Speaker 2: part of the reason this coup fails is that so

840
00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:44,960
Speaker 2: Trump is talking about doing the Insurrection Act twice in

841
00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:47,120
Speaker 2: twenty twenty. Well, I guess once in twenty twenty. I

842
00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:48,400
Speaker 2: think this might have been the second time. I've been

843
00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:50,759
Speaker 2: twenty twenty one. But like in that last year, he

844
00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:54,080
Speaker 2: tries to use the Insurrection Act against the uprising in

845
00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:58,480
Speaker 2: twenty twenty, and his like his Chief of stat like

846
00:41:58,480 --> 00:41:59,920
Speaker 2: like a bunch of like a bunch of generals and

847
00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:03,319
Speaker 2: chief of staff like tell them the fuck off. And

848
00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:07,080
Speaker 2: that's like part of the reason why this didn't happen,

849
00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:10,080
Speaker 2: which which is interesting because like I don't know, like

850
00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:13,360
Speaker 2: there there have been, like there have been times where

851
00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:16,200
Speaker 2: the US Army like has been deployed against like riots

852
00:42:16,239 --> 00:42:18,240
Speaker 2: like this, right like this this happened in the nineties,

853
00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:24,560
Speaker 2: but in this situation, the army just like absolutely completely

854
00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:28,760
Speaker 2: refuse to play ball. And we've we've gotten some really

855
00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:31,399
Speaker 2: kind of interesting So the other thing that's happening here

856
00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:33,880
Speaker 2: is like just the complete hollowing out of journalism as

857
00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:36,759
Speaker 2: an institution where all of these people know all of

858
00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:39,280
Speaker 2: the all these journalists like know a bunch of incredibly

859
00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:41,560
Speaker 2: important stuff and they won't tell anyone because they they're

860
00:42:41,560 --> 00:42:44,640
Speaker 2: saving it for their books, yep, and you know, and

861
00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:46,879
Speaker 2: it's like among the things that we sort of learned

862
00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:48,960
Speaker 2: in this period is like there there's basically this like

863
00:42:50,239 --> 00:42:52,319
Speaker 2: I don't know what you call it, Like you could

864
00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:54,640
Speaker 2: either call it like a quad um for it basically,

865
00:42:54,840 --> 00:42:57,040
Speaker 2: or you could call it like a National Unity government

866
00:42:57,080 --> 00:43:02,600
Speaker 2: which is in power for two weeks basically where Pelosi Miley,

867
00:43:02,719 --> 00:43:06,640
Speaker 2: who's uh, he's uh, the chief of staff who's a general,

868
00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:10,319
Speaker 2: like Mike Pence, Chuck Schumer and Mitch McConnell basically are

869
00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:13,719
Speaker 2: like running the government for two weeks because they've successfully

870
00:43:13,719 --> 00:43:17,400
Speaker 2: put together this counter coup where the like the military

871
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:20,880
Speaker 2: has refused to like go along with Trump like trying

872
00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:24,480
Speaker 2: to overthrow the government. And this is very deeply I

873
00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:26,560
Speaker 2: don't know. There's some very deeply interesting stuff here where

874
00:43:26,600 --> 00:43:29,000
Speaker 2: there's there's a there's a book called Iolone Can Fix It,

875
00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:31,520
Speaker 2: which a couple of journalists are coming out with and

876
00:43:31,560 --> 00:43:36,160
Speaker 2: there's some interesting quotes from it from specifically General Mike Miley,

877
00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:37,759
Speaker 2: who's like the chairman of the Joint chiefs of Staff,

878
00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:40,319
Speaker 2: who was appointed by Trump. By the way, this this

879
00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:42,640
Speaker 2: is this is an important thing because like Trump, there's

880
00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:45,800
Speaker 2: like seven guys who are like absolute ghouls, like Mike Pompeo,

881
00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:48,640
Speaker 2: like Cia ghoul who are just like look at this

882
00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:52,480
Speaker 2: coup and are like no, and Miley stuff is wild.

883
00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:55,880
Speaker 2: Like Miley directly can like in meetings, is comparing Trump

884
00:43:55,880 --> 00:43:59,080
Speaker 2: to Hitler. He says, quote, yeah, this is a Reichstag moment.

885
00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:03,479
Speaker 2: Miley told aids the Gospel of the Fearer, like and.

886
00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:05,680
Speaker 1: There's there's a I talked about this a little bit

887
00:44:05,680 --> 00:44:08,680
Speaker 1: ahead of earlier. There are some unconfirmed reports that Miley

888
00:44:08,719 --> 00:44:11,840
Speaker 1: and a number of other like US military high ranking

889
00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:14,800
Speaker 1: officers basically had like a book club, and one of

890
00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:17,400
Speaker 1: the books they went through in twenty twenty was a

891
00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:20,080
Speaker 1: book about the Nazis' rise to power in Germany. I

892
00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:22,000
Speaker 1: kind of suspect it might have been Death of a

893
00:44:22,040 --> 00:44:24,880
Speaker 1: Democracy because that was big at the time. But it

894
00:44:24,920 --> 00:44:28,320
Speaker 1: would make sense because he's talking in substantial detail about

895
00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:31,080
Speaker 1: like he's very you can tell he's very focused in

896
00:44:31,080 --> 00:44:34,000
Speaker 1: this period on Nazis taking over the government, Like he

897
00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:35,280
Speaker 1: talks about it a lot.

898
00:44:36,040 --> 00:44:38,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I'm gonna read a couple other quotes from him.

899
00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:40,279
Speaker 2: He has this thing where I think, I think he's

900
00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:42,319
Speaker 2: talking about payoh here, where he's talking about like this

901
00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:45,080
Speaker 2: coup and he says they may tribe, but they're not

902
00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:47,040
Speaker 2: going to fucking succeed. He told them, you can't do

903
00:44:47,120 --> 00:44:48,840
Speaker 2: this without the military. You can't do this without the

904
00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:51,200
Speaker 2: CIA and the FBI. We're the guys with the guns.

905
00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:53,080
Speaker 2: And he's right about this. And this is a really

906
00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:55,239
Speaker 2: crucial thing that Trump fucks up about how to do

907
00:44:55,280 --> 00:44:59,760
Speaker 2: a fascist coup is that you can't actually like fascist

908
00:44:59,800 --> 00:45:02,960
Speaker 2: coup don't work without the at least passive acquiescence of

909
00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:05,879
Speaker 2: the state. Like, if the state tries, if the army

910
00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:09,520
Speaker 2: tries to stop you, your coup is not going to work, right, Like,

911
00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:12,320
Speaker 2: unless you're someone like Franco who like has control of

912
00:45:12,360 --> 00:45:14,719
Speaker 2: a huge portion of the army, if you try to

913
00:45:14,800 --> 00:45:17,600
Speaker 2: do one of these sort of weird paramilitary things and

914
00:45:17,640 --> 00:45:21,120
Speaker 2: the army just says no, like you're screwed. And this

915
00:45:21,360 --> 00:45:23,480
Speaker 2: I think was always part of trump sort of problem

916
00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:26,799
Speaker 2: was that, like, you know, if he'd sort of spent

917
00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:29,759
Speaker 2: his time consolidating the kind of like fascist institutions, the

918
00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:32,000
Speaker 2: neo cons set up, right, Like, if he'd spent his

919
00:45:32,080 --> 00:45:35,440
Speaker 2: time like you know, actually like actually developing loyalty in

920
00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:37,799
Speaker 2: the FBI and the CIA and like going through and

921
00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:42,160
Speaker 2: like turning Department Homeland Security like you know, into like

922
00:45:42,520 --> 00:45:44,400
Speaker 2: an even more fascist organization.

923
00:45:44,080 --> 00:45:45,120
Speaker 4: He might have been able to do this.

924
00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:49,600
Speaker 2: But like at the very end, like you have Miley

925
00:45:49,719 --> 00:45:52,080
Speaker 2: saying this is this is on h right, this is

926
00:45:52,120 --> 00:45:56,600
Speaker 2: on exercises right before the inauguration, he says, quote, here's

927
00:45:56,640 --> 00:45:59,240
Speaker 2: the deal, guys, these guys are the not are Nazis,

928
00:45:59,239 --> 00:46:02,040
Speaker 2: They're Bugalopo, They're proud voys. These are the same people

929
00:46:02,040 --> 00:46:04,840
Speaker 2: we fought in World War two. Miley told them everyone

930
00:46:04,920 --> 00:46:07,440
Speaker 2: in this room, whether you're a cop, whether you're a soldier,

931
00:46:07,719 --> 00:46:09,560
Speaker 2: we're going to stop these guys to make sure we

932
00:46:09,560 --> 00:46:11,799
Speaker 2: have a peaceful transfer of power. We're gonna put a

933
00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:14,560
Speaker 2: steel ring around this city, and the Nazis aren't getting in.

934
00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:20,640
Speaker 1: Like you know what, credit, Where's That's a pretty cool

935
00:46:20,719 --> 00:46:25,160
Speaker 1: thing to get to have said, Yeah, so something like

936
00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:27,399
Speaker 1: basically him and Zook off.

937
00:46:28,080 --> 00:46:33,520
Speaker 7: Yeah, it's like all of like suddenly like the American

938
00:46:33,560 --> 00:46:35,600
Speaker 7: like all of like the senior command of the American

939
00:46:35,680 --> 00:46:39,160
Speaker 7: Army suddenly turned into like nineteen forty two American generals.

940
00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:41,160
Speaker 2: It's like, I don't know.

941
00:46:41,200 --> 00:46:44,000
Speaker 1: I guess again, I try to say this, I try

942
00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:46,480
Speaker 1: to bring this up a lot to like more radical

943
00:46:46,520 --> 00:46:48,399
Speaker 1: folks when you if you want to get a lot

944
00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:51,200
Speaker 1: of like the centrist lib types on your side, you

945
00:46:51,200 --> 00:46:53,120
Speaker 1: could do a lot worse than Hearkening back to that

946
00:46:53,160 --> 00:46:55,680
Speaker 1: whole World War two thing, there's a lot of propaganda

947
00:46:55,760 --> 00:46:58,760
Speaker 1: invested in getting guys like Millie to want to feel

948
00:46:58,880 --> 00:46:59,279
Speaker 1: like that.

949
00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:01,440
Speaker 3: So and in this case it works out for.

950
00:47:01,640 --> 00:47:05,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, apparently, I don't know, Live Live Antifa has poor

951
00:47:05,760 --> 00:47:06,640
Speaker 2: has pulled one out.

952
00:47:07,040 --> 00:47:11,279
Speaker 1: I guess it's certainly better than if the head of

953
00:47:11,320 --> 00:47:14,719
Speaker 1: the military had been like, I guess I'm fine with this,

954
00:47:14,880 --> 00:47:18,840
Speaker 1: so yeah, what I don't know. Yeah, I have no

955
00:47:18,960 --> 00:47:23,719
Speaker 1: complaints are his performance in that specific moment, uh, other

956
00:47:23,800 --> 00:47:27,160
Speaker 1: than that they did actually get in so you know whatever,

957
00:47:27,360 --> 00:47:28,960
Speaker 1: Like that was it.

958
00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:33,960
Speaker 2: When they were drilling for the inauguration.

959
00:47:33,520 --> 00:47:36,480
Speaker 3: When they stuffed the capital with National God soldiers like

960
00:47:36,520 --> 00:47:37,120
Speaker 3: a sausage.

961
00:47:37,239 --> 00:47:39,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was just I guess it worked. I don't know.

962
00:47:40,160 --> 00:47:42,560
Speaker 2: My other conclusion from this, though, is when when you

963
00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:46,759
Speaker 2: have reached the position of like you're you're trying to

964
00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:49,520
Speaker 2: figure like your top generals are trying to figure out

965
00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:52,200
Speaker 2: who has enough guns to figure out whether a coup

966
00:47:52,239 --> 00:47:55,040
Speaker 2: can happen, like things are things are not good. This

967
00:47:55,120 --> 00:47:58,600
Speaker 2: is a this is a a bad sign TM.

968
00:47:58,640 --> 00:48:02,480
Speaker 1: For no, It's it's like, as nice as it is

969
00:48:02,800 --> 00:48:06,279
Speaker 1: to hear that Milly understood the stakes, which is good.

970
00:48:06,360 --> 00:48:09,040
Speaker 1: It's good that he understood the stakes given his position,

971
00:48:09,640 --> 00:48:12,520
Speaker 1: it's not good that like so much came down to

972
00:48:12,600 --> 00:48:16,239
Speaker 1: the fact that a couple dudes didn't suck in this

973
00:48:16,280 --> 00:48:21,440
Speaker 1: specific way, Like that's not a great sign for stability

974
00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:26,200
Speaker 1: of democracy. Yeah, because no one voted for Miley, Like right, Yeah,

975
00:48:26,280 --> 00:48:27,160
Speaker 1: that's unsettling.

976
00:48:27,320 --> 00:48:30,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, the whole democratic system was more or less of

977
00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:32,239
Speaker 3: the edge of failing. And a dude who was good

978
00:48:32,239 --> 00:48:33,719
Speaker 3: at war step ten and was like, here, okay, we

979
00:48:33,760 --> 00:48:36,279
Speaker 3: can't I don't want to do this one of those things.

980
00:48:36,320 --> 00:48:38,480
Speaker 2: Right, we know what this looks like. With Bush, We're like,

981
00:48:38,920 --> 00:48:41,520
Speaker 2: if you actually know how to press the buttons of

982
00:48:41,520 --> 00:48:45,000
Speaker 2: the system, right, you can't do this. But Trump just

983
00:48:45,040 --> 00:48:47,920
Speaker 2: like didn't have enough control of the state apparatus and

984
00:48:47,960 --> 00:48:50,000
Speaker 2: tried to sort of replicate it with true viles, and

985
00:48:50,320 --> 00:48:54,279
Speaker 2: that just didn't work. Trump's problems here are twofold. One

986
00:48:54,280 --> 00:48:58,000
Speaker 2: of them is that he is not capable of loyalty

987
00:48:58,239 --> 00:49:01,160
Speaker 2: to anyone or anything else, whereas.

988
00:49:01,200 --> 00:49:03,960
Speaker 1: A guy like George W. Bush is, which means he's

989
00:49:03,960 --> 00:49:07,359
Speaker 1: capable of getting teams together who are willing to take

990
00:49:07,719 --> 00:49:09,200
Speaker 1: some of like who are willing to go out on

991
00:49:09,200 --> 00:49:12,720
Speaker 1: a limb for him to some extent. And Bush also

992
00:49:13,160 --> 00:49:15,399
Speaker 1: is system loyal. Now, that doesn't mean he's not willing

993
00:49:15,440 --> 00:49:17,920
Speaker 1: to fuck with the system for his own benefit, but

994
00:49:18,040 --> 00:49:22,120
Speaker 1: he has a vested interest in the system continuing more

995
00:49:22,239 --> 00:49:24,640
Speaker 1: or less the way that it has right as opposed

996
00:49:24,680 --> 00:49:30,080
Speaker 1: to breaking it, specifically forever for his own like power.

997
00:49:31,040 --> 00:49:32,520
Speaker 1: You know, he was not a guy who was interested

998
00:49:32,560 --> 00:49:34,319
Speaker 1: in staying in office. For I don't say this to

999
00:49:34,320 --> 00:49:37,560
Speaker 1: defend the man he killed hundreds of thousands of people minimum,

1000
00:49:37,920 --> 00:49:41,120
Speaker 1: But because he was willing, he had a degree of

1001
00:49:41,200 --> 00:49:45,160
Speaker 1: loyalty to the system as it was seen by most people.

1002
00:49:45,640 --> 00:49:48,560
Speaker 1: There was not this kind of rebellion from sort of

1003
00:49:48,600 --> 00:49:51,239
Speaker 1: within it, right like. In fact, that deep state was

1004
00:49:51,320 --> 00:49:54,000
Speaker 1: largely sympathetic with him. They were willing to go with

1005
00:49:54,080 --> 00:49:57,320
Speaker 1: like the fucking around with the election as long as,

1006
00:49:57,480 --> 00:50:00,319
Speaker 1: you know, the broader structures that had given them a

1007
00:50:00,360 --> 00:50:04,960
Speaker 1: place to exert power and influence remained intact. And Trump

1008
00:50:05,040 --> 00:50:07,680
Speaker 1: was basically saying, if Millie had gone with this, if

1009
00:50:07,680 --> 00:50:10,360
Speaker 1: everyone had gone with this, what you are accepting is

1010
00:50:10,360 --> 00:50:14,360
Speaker 1: that nothing matters but this guy's opinion. Right There's not

1011
00:50:14,480 --> 00:50:17,359
Speaker 1: actually any sort of power in the system that you

1012
00:50:17,400 --> 00:50:20,200
Speaker 1: have risen to the top of. There's not any sort

1013
00:50:20,200 --> 00:50:24,359
Speaker 1: of power in these unelected structures within the system that

1014
00:50:24,440 --> 00:50:27,319
Speaker 1: you clearly think are important because they are how you

1015
00:50:27,440 --> 00:50:32,200
Speaker 1: why like, where you have seen success, right like, And frankly,

1016
00:50:32,520 --> 00:50:34,799
Speaker 1: you know people aren't willing to do that sort of thing.

1017
00:50:34,840 --> 00:50:39,600
Speaker 1: And also you're fighting against a lot of people who

1018
00:50:40,920 --> 00:50:44,359
Speaker 1: want to whatever fucked up things they are willing to do.

1019
00:50:44,880 --> 00:50:47,520
Speaker 1: They have a lot emotionally invested in the idea that

1020
00:50:47,560 --> 00:50:52,440
Speaker 1: they serve a democracy. Now is that a morally flawless idea?

1021
00:50:52,480 --> 00:50:55,080
Speaker 1: Are they always? In fact? Like no, of course not

1022
00:50:55,320 --> 00:50:59,880
Speaker 1: like everyone. They're hypocrites to certain extents, But you can't

1023
00:51:00,040 --> 00:51:03,359
Speaker 1: pushed them that far like Bush pushed them about as

1024
00:51:03,400 --> 00:51:06,879
Speaker 1: far as you can push people like that. Right, this

1025
00:51:07,360 --> 00:51:11,240
Speaker 1: Trump didn't have any respect for making it, for dressing

1026
00:51:11,239 --> 00:51:13,719
Speaker 1: it up right, and he didn't have any respect for

1027
00:51:14,360 --> 00:51:16,320
Speaker 1: the thing that they were a part of, and so

1028
00:51:16,400 --> 00:51:18,200
Speaker 1: of course a lot of them didn't go with him.

1029
00:51:18,560 --> 00:51:20,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think this gets back to something I've

1030
00:51:20,320 --> 00:51:23,759
Speaker 2: talked about a bit with with what what the neocons

1031
00:51:23,800 --> 00:51:26,640
Speaker 2: were doing, which that the neocons are about like the

1032
00:51:26,680 --> 00:51:28,920
Speaker 2: state of exception, right, they're about this, like you know,

1033
00:51:28,920 --> 00:51:30,520
Speaker 2: we've had the war, we now have the war on terror.

1034
00:51:30,560 --> 00:51:32,600
Speaker 2: We've had nine to eleven, and that means the countries

1035
00:51:32,600 --> 00:51:34,319
Speaker 2: in this state were like, we have the power to

1036
00:51:34,400 --> 00:51:36,359
Speaker 2: be like the people inside the system who are out

1037
00:51:36,360 --> 00:51:37,920
Speaker 2: bound by it, you could do whatever you want and

1038
00:51:37,960 --> 00:51:41,120
Speaker 2: like that is descriptively right, like this is you know,

1039
00:51:41,239 --> 00:51:43,759
Speaker 2: both Carl Schmidt, the like Nazi jurists like that. That

1040
00:51:43,880 --> 00:51:46,200
Speaker 2: was explicitly like his model of how you do fascism, right,

1041
00:51:47,320 --> 00:51:49,200
Speaker 2: and it's as also like something you know. But but

1042
00:51:49,239 --> 00:51:52,799
Speaker 2: the thing is again like that's a very different thing

1043
00:51:52,920 --> 00:51:56,520
Speaker 2: than what Trump was doing, right, Like Trump wasn't doing

1044
00:51:56,600 --> 00:51:59,279
Speaker 2: like Trump wasn't doing this thing where he like you know,

1045
00:51:59,520 --> 00:52:01,520
Speaker 2: uses the as of the state he was, he was

1046
00:52:01,560 --> 00:52:04,640
Speaker 2: doing a different, like different kind of.

1047
00:52:04,640 --> 00:52:04,960
Speaker 4: One of them.

1048
00:52:05,360 --> 00:52:07,280
Speaker 1: This is what a lot of people don't understand about

1049
00:52:07,320 --> 00:52:10,879
Speaker 1: the Nazis is that whin Hitler took power and for

1050
00:52:11,160 --> 00:52:15,560
Speaker 1: the first half to two thirds of his time in power, uh,

1051
00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:20,680
Speaker 1: he was very much concerned about the military and constantly

1052
00:52:20,760 --> 00:52:25,840
Speaker 1: making exceptions and altering and moderating aspects of his policy

1053
00:52:25,880 --> 00:52:28,520
Speaker 1: in order to keep the military on his side. And

1054
00:52:28,560 --> 00:52:31,600
Speaker 1: that continued, depending on kind of where you want to

1055
00:52:31,600 --> 00:52:34,120
Speaker 1: put it, either up until the Anschlusser, up until the

1056
00:52:34,200 --> 00:52:36,719
Speaker 1: invasion of Poland. Really to a significant.

1057
00:52:36,160 --> 00:52:40,840
Speaker 3: Extent he would whereas Trump did not.

1058
00:52:41,160 --> 00:52:43,520
Speaker 1: Again, there's no sort of he has no sort of

1059
00:52:43,520 --> 00:52:46,480
Speaker 1: respect And I'm not saying like you should have respect

1060
00:52:46,520 --> 00:52:49,920
Speaker 1: for the military, no, but I'm saying that because he

1061
00:52:50,120 --> 00:52:52,759
Speaker 1: did not just like power. Yeah, the fact that he

1062
00:52:52,800 --> 00:52:55,960
Speaker 1: did not, or the FBI for that matter, is one

1063
00:52:56,000 --> 00:52:57,680
Speaker 1: of the reasons why this didn't work for him.

1064
00:52:57,800 --> 00:52:59,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, and this was this was always a kind of

1065
00:52:59,600 --> 00:53:01,360
Speaker 2: a problem he has ideologically, which is like one of

1066
00:53:01,400 --> 00:53:03,080
Speaker 2: the things that makes him popular is he was running

1067
00:53:03,120 --> 00:53:05,080
Speaker 2: like against the deep state, right, and like yeah, like yeah,

1068
00:53:05,120 --> 00:53:06,200
Speaker 2: like I know lots of people in you like I

1069
00:53:06,239 --> 00:53:08,279
Speaker 2: don't like the intelligence agency. He's like, the intelligence's can

1070
00:53:08,320 --> 00:53:10,279
Speaker 2: fuck off. The fact that like the fact that the

1071
00:53:10,280 --> 00:53:13,759
Speaker 2: intelligence agency's finally found a coup they wouldn't support, like

1072
00:53:13,840 --> 00:53:16,560
Speaker 2: it's not as something they're good, but the pretended Yeah.

1073
00:53:16,560 --> 00:53:17,880
Speaker 2: But like the problem with this is like Trump is,

1074
00:53:18,160 --> 00:53:20,560
Speaker 2: you know, he wins the primary, like very explicitly by

1075
00:53:20,640 --> 00:53:24,759
Speaker 2: running against a lot of the like like by nay,

1076
00:53:24,840 --> 00:53:27,000
Speaker 2: running against neo conservatives. You can argue the extent to

1077
00:53:27,000 --> 00:53:28,480
Speaker 2: which he actually broke with it in terms of like

1078
00:53:28,560 --> 00:53:30,279
Speaker 2: appointing like gena. You know, he puts a bunch of

1079
00:53:30,280 --> 00:53:32,760
Speaker 2: neo kon gorougles like back in power, right, But like

1080
00:53:32,760 --> 00:53:36,000
Speaker 2: like nominally he's running against that specific thing. And it

1081
00:53:36,040 --> 00:53:38,040
Speaker 2: turns out that like if if you if your appeal

1082
00:53:38,280 --> 00:53:41,840
Speaker 2: is you know, being like a nominally anti systemic force,

1083
00:53:41,880 --> 00:53:43,920
Speaker 2: and then you have to try to use the system

1084
00:53:43,960 --> 00:53:46,080
Speaker 2: to stay in power. It's like, well, you know this,

1085
00:53:46,080 --> 00:53:50,240
Speaker 2: this happens like now you are getting charged by Jack

1086
00:53:50,320 --> 00:53:53,799
Speaker 2: Smith and you have like seventy eight counts against you

1087
00:53:54,120 --> 00:53:56,680
Speaker 2: instead of you are now the fearer.

1088
00:53:57,960 --> 00:54:00,919
Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot of it is. You know, first off,

1089
00:54:00,960 --> 00:54:04,360
Speaker 1: people want to be able to believe nice things about themselves,

1090
00:54:04,680 --> 00:54:06,719
Speaker 1: and Trump didn't really give them the option of doing that.

1091
00:54:07,320 --> 00:54:10,719
Speaker 1: And second of all, people who are achieved this kind

1092
00:54:10,760 --> 00:54:14,359
Speaker 1: of level within the system want you to treat the

1093
00:54:14,400 --> 00:54:18,600
Speaker 1: system they've succeeded in as if it matters, Like it's

1094
00:54:18,600 --> 00:54:19,160
Speaker 1: that simple.

1095
00:54:19,280 --> 00:54:21,279
Speaker 3: I think in a lot of yays when I feel

1096
00:54:21,320 --> 00:54:24,120
Speaker 3: validated and valued, and he was just like, no, fuck

1097
00:54:24,120 --> 00:54:26,560
Speaker 3: you all, I'm doing my gu and with genuinely shock

1098
00:54:26,560 --> 00:54:28,000
Speaker 3: whe people like, well, we ain't coming with you.

1099
00:54:27,960 --> 00:54:32,080
Speaker 1: For I don't I really feel no desire or no

1100
00:54:32,200 --> 00:54:35,840
Speaker 1: uh no impetus to move with you. Yeah, anyway, this

1101
00:54:36,000 --> 00:54:36,600
Speaker 1: is a good idea.

1102
00:54:37,000 --> 00:54:38,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, So I don't know, we'll we'll, we'll see what

1103
00:54:39,080 --> 00:54:44,160
Speaker 2: happens with these indictments. I don't know. I I genuine

1104
00:54:44,239 --> 00:54:45,880
Speaker 2: this is the importance. Yeah, this is the one that

1105
00:54:46,360 --> 00:54:48,160
Speaker 2: the indictments. This is the one that matters.

1106
00:54:48,360 --> 00:54:48,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't know.

1107
00:54:49,040 --> 00:54:52,239
Speaker 2: We'll we'll see if this actually substantively plays a role

1108
00:54:52,360 --> 00:54:54,359
Speaker 2: in the election. I mean, I I don't think there's

1109
00:54:54,360 --> 00:54:58,879
Speaker 2: a possibility that I can cost Trump the primary, like but.

1110
00:54:59,120 --> 00:55:02,000
Speaker 1: No, no, no, no, yeah, nothing nothing but like a

1111
00:55:02,040 --> 00:55:07,439
Speaker 1: heart attack could do that. But it is. I will

1112
00:55:07,480 --> 00:55:09,319
Speaker 1: say I had some other stuff prepared that I think

1113
00:55:09,320 --> 00:55:11,279
Speaker 1: we'll move to another episode just because of how this

1114
00:55:11,320 --> 00:55:13,040
Speaker 1: has gone. But I do want to note I want

1115
00:55:13,080 --> 00:55:14,760
Speaker 1: to talk a little bit at the end here about

1116
00:55:16,160 --> 00:55:18,840
Speaker 1: is this going to matter like electorally for Trump?

1117
00:55:18,920 --> 00:55:19,080
Speaker 4: Right?

1118
00:55:19,120 --> 00:55:21,800
Speaker 1: Is this going to have an impact on his chances

1119
00:55:21,800 --> 00:55:24,520
Speaker 1: of winning the general? I think we're all agreed it's

1120
00:55:24,520 --> 00:55:26,440
Speaker 1: not really worth talking about the primary. He's going to

1121
00:55:26,440 --> 00:55:29,719
Speaker 1: win the primary barring and act of God, and that's

1122
00:55:29,800 --> 00:55:34,480
Speaker 1: where what Yeah, anyway, so there's some infol on this. Basically,

1123
00:55:34,560 --> 00:55:37,680
Speaker 1: on March twenty ninth, he was averaging about forty five

1124
00:55:37,719 --> 00:55:42,200
Speaker 1: percent in national primary polls, which I'm bringing up here

1125
00:55:42,239 --> 00:55:44,359
Speaker 1: because they help show the impact of the indictment because

1126
00:55:44,360 --> 00:55:45,960
Speaker 1: you don't have a lot of national polls from that

1127
00:55:46,040 --> 00:55:50,640
Speaker 1: time a national general election polls. So forty five percent

1128
00:55:50,680 --> 00:55:54,400
Speaker 1: in March, after his first set of indictments. In April,

1129
00:55:54,440 --> 00:55:57,319
Speaker 1: he was up to fifty four percent, So that first

1130
00:55:57,360 --> 00:56:00,600
Speaker 1: set of indictments did not harm him. They have helped

1131
00:56:00,640 --> 00:56:04,520
Speaker 1: him consolidate power, may have activated a chunk of his base.

1132
00:56:05,800 --> 00:56:08,319
Speaker 1: The second indictment did not work the same way though.

1133
00:56:08,400 --> 00:56:10,960
Speaker 1: After June eighth, when it was reported that he was

1134
00:56:11,000 --> 00:56:14,400
Speaker 1: being indicted for the classified document shit and obstructing justice

1135
00:56:14,400 --> 00:56:15,080
Speaker 1: and getting.

1136
00:56:14,800 --> 00:56:15,400
Speaker 4: Them back.

1137
00:56:17,680 --> 00:56:22,000
Speaker 1: YEA, his average support in the primary fell not by

1138
00:56:22,000 --> 00:56:24,560
Speaker 1: a massive amount, by a couple of percentage points, as

1139
00:56:24,560 --> 00:56:27,600
Speaker 1: did his average net favorable rating. So you saw at

1140
00:56:27,719 --> 00:56:31,319
Speaker 1: least a he hit a wall and bounced back a

1141
00:56:31,320 --> 00:56:35,200
Speaker 1: little bit. Not massive, not a sea change, but enough

1142
00:56:35,239 --> 00:56:38,560
Speaker 1: to show that it's not accurate to say voters don't care.

1143
00:56:38,680 --> 00:56:41,000
Speaker 1: It's more accurate to say, based on what we've seen

1144
00:56:41,000 --> 00:56:44,600
Speaker 1: so far, voters seem to care differently about different indictments.

1145
00:56:45,640 --> 00:56:47,239
Speaker 1: And I want to read a quote from a five

1146
00:56:47,239 --> 00:56:50,840
Speaker 1: point thirty eight article about his indictment poles here. Although

1147
00:56:50,840 --> 00:56:52,759
Speaker 1: we can't prove that all these shifts happen because of

1148
00:56:52,800 --> 00:56:55,000
Speaker 1: the indictments, the difference in reaction at least suggests that

1149
00:56:55,040 --> 00:56:58,440
Speaker 1: Americans are drawing distinctions between Trump's various legal troubles and

1150
00:56:58,520 --> 00:57:00,800
Speaker 1: other polling backs that up ing to do. A Yugov

1151
00:57:00,920 --> 00:57:04,520
Speaker 1: Yahoo News poll from July thirteenth through seventeenth, fifty percent

1152
00:57:04,600 --> 00:57:08,080
Speaker 1: of registered voters considered falsifying business records to conceal hush

1153
00:57:08,080 --> 00:57:10,680
Speaker 1: money payments to a porn star to be a serious crime,

1154
00:57:10,960 --> 00:57:13,520
Speaker 1: but sixty four percent of registered voters consider it a

1155
00:57:13,560 --> 00:57:16,200
Speaker 1: serious crime to take highly classified documents from the White

1156
00:57:16,240 --> 00:57:19,160
Speaker 1: House and obstruct efforts to retrieve them. Similarly, a June

1157
00:57:19,200 --> 00:57:21,800
Speaker 1: twenty second to twenty sixth pole from the Associated Press

1158
00:57:21,840 --> 00:57:25,240
Speaker 1: NRC Center for Public Affairs Research found that only thirty

1159
00:57:25,240 --> 00:57:27,840
Speaker 1: five percent of US adults thought Trump did something illegal

1160
00:57:27,840 --> 00:57:30,120
Speaker 1: when it came to the hush money payments, but fifty

1161
00:57:30,120 --> 00:57:32,440
Speaker 1: three percent thought he did something illegal with regards to

1162
00:57:32,440 --> 00:57:37,280
Speaker 1: classified documents founded his Marologu resort in Florida. By this logic,

1163
00:57:37,320 --> 00:57:39,680
Speaker 1: this third indictment could be even more damaging to Trump

1164
00:57:39,720 --> 00:57:42,320
Speaker 1: than the one involving classified documents. According to the same

1165
00:57:42,400 --> 00:57:45,240
Speaker 1: Yugo of Yahoo News poll, sixty nine percent of registered

1166
00:57:45,320 --> 00:57:48,440
Speaker 1: voters considered it a serious crime to attempt to obstruct

1167
00:57:48,480 --> 00:57:51,640
Speaker 1: the certification of a presidential election, and seventy one percent

1168
00:57:51,680 --> 00:57:54,040
Speaker 1: said the same about conspiring to overturn the results of

1169
00:57:54,080 --> 00:57:55,040
Speaker 1: a presidential election.

1170
00:57:55,200 --> 00:57:58,680
Speaker 3: So going to take us troublingly low number, but yeah, yeah,

1171
00:57:58,720 --> 00:57:59,800
Speaker 3: I wishing way it should be.

1172
00:58:00,800 --> 00:58:05,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, but that that does suggest that this could do

1173
00:58:05,520 --> 00:58:09,080
Speaker 1: him some damage, and especially since all of this is

1174
00:58:09,120 --> 00:58:12,680
Speaker 1: going to keep getting litigated, right like fucking people who

1175
00:58:12,680 --> 00:58:14,840
Speaker 1: get who have a decent lawyer and get arrested for

1176
00:58:14,920 --> 00:58:17,160
Speaker 1: like a d u y can drag a court case

1177
00:58:17,200 --> 00:58:19,080
Speaker 1: out for a year. This will be going on during

1178
00:58:19,080 --> 00:58:21,439
Speaker 1: the election. It may hurt him.

1179
00:58:21,520 --> 00:58:21,720
Speaker 6: You know.

1180
00:58:21,840 --> 00:58:25,400
Speaker 1: Again, I'm not willing to like say, oh, this is

1181
00:58:25,440 --> 00:58:27,640
Speaker 1: going to fuck the election, make it impossible from beginning.

1182
00:58:27,680 --> 00:58:30,880
Speaker 1: I don't think the data suggests that, but it it

1183
00:58:30,920 --> 00:58:32,840
Speaker 1: there's a I think a pretty good chance that this

1184
00:58:32,880 --> 00:58:34,960
Speaker 1: is a net negative for him in terms of, you know,

1185
00:58:35,080 --> 00:58:40,560
Speaker 1: the election and broadly speaking, you know, we gave the

1186
00:58:40,680 --> 00:58:43,400
Speaker 1: Dims a lot of shit for a couple of years

1187
00:58:43,440 --> 00:58:47,800
Speaker 1: for not doing enough to actually seriously strike back at

1188
00:58:47,800 --> 00:58:51,800
Speaker 1: the Republican authoritarian outreach, and so it would be unfair

1189
00:58:51,840 --> 00:58:55,400
Speaker 1: of me to not say it's good that they're doing this,

1190
00:58:56,280 --> 00:58:59,120
Speaker 1: like it's good that he's facing legal trouble for what

1191
00:58:59,200 --> 00:59:02,520
Speaker 1: he's done. That's not enough to stop him. That's not

1192
00:59:02,640 --> 00:59:05,600
Speaker 1: enough to stop the Republican Party, but it is good

1193
00:59:05,720 --> 00:59:06,680
Speaker 1: that this has been done.

1194
00:59:07,040 --> 00:59:14,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, progress. Shame wasn't earlier, should have been earlier.

1195
00:59:14,200 --> 00:59:17,160
Speaker 3: You know, h happening during the election is a major

1196
00:59:17,320 --> 00:59:18,920
Speaker 3: l in terms of how he can spin this.

1197
00:59:19,160 --> 00:59:22,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like I think that was probably a strategic error,

1198
00:59:23,240 --> 00:59:24,479
Speaker 1: but grand juries take forever.

1199
00:59:24,720 --> 00:59:25,760
Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah.

1200
00:59:25,760 --> 00:59:27,120
Speaker 2: And the other thing that's happens is like there's been

1201
00:59:27,240 --> 00:59:29,680
Speaker 2: all of this time for sort of Republican pr machine

1202
00:59:29,680 --> 00:59:32,680
Speaker 2: to like spin all of the stuff that happened, and

1203
00:59:32,720 --> 00:59:34,479
Speaker 2: we've you know, and I think like part of wasn't

1204
00:59:34,480 --> 00:59:36,520
Speaker 2: happening the last three years is like everyone kind of

1205
00:59:36,520 --> 00:59:40,640
Speaker 2: just like collectively forgetting what actually happened during twenty twenty

1206
00:59:40,680 --> 00:59:43,440
Speaker 2: and how absolutely nuts it was, and everyone sort of

1207
00:59:43,480 --> 00:59:45,520
Speaker 2: going back and pretending that like things are sort of

1208
00:59:45,560 --> 00:59:48,760
Speaker 2: like normal now, and it's like, no, no, we're still

1209
00:59:48,800 --> 00:59:51,240
Speaker 2: we're still living in the eternal twenty twenty and everything

1210
00:59:51,360 --> 00:59:56,240
Speaker 2: is still absolutely nuts. But I don't know, it's like

1211
00:59:56,840 --> 01:00:00,360
Speaker 2: there's been this incredible sort of like normalization effort, both

1212
01:00:00,360 --> 01:00:02,720
Speaker 2: by Biden and also like buy the Republicans to make

1213
01:00:02,760 --> 01:00:05,520
Speaker 2: it seem like this was like a normal thing that

1214
01:00:05,600 --> 01:00:08,440
Speaker 2: happened as opposed to like the immediate wake if it,

1215
01:00:08,440 --> 01:00:13,760
Speaker 2: where everyone was like what the fuck? So hopefully not

1216
01:00:13,840 --> 01:00:17,160
Speaker 2: too little, too late, hopefully this does something, but.

1217
01:00:20,600 --> 01:00:27,280
Speaker 1: We'll see, yes, indeed, all right, well everybody, uh, you know,

1218
01:00:28,520 --> 01:00:32,720
Speaker 1: I guess go back to paying rent and stuff. I'm

1219
01:00:32,760 --> 01:00:34,520
Speaker 1: sure twenty twenty four will be fine.

1220
01:00:35,680 --> 01:00:36,800
Speaker 3: Yet it wouldn't be any problem.

1221
01:00:36,800 --> 01:00:38,200
Speaker 2: There's fifteen more months of this.

1222
01:00:38,320 --> 01:00:57,040
Speaker 8: By the way, Hi, everyone, it's me James today and

1223
01:00:57,080 --> 01:00:59,600
Speaker 8: I'm joined by Glen Pyle, who's a professor of malekhilra

1224
01:00:59,680 --> 01:01:04,040
Speaker 8: Kadi and a member of the Impart Network at Dalhousie Medicine.

1225
01:01:04,400 --> 01:01:06,720
Speaker 3: Glenn, thank you so much for joining us. Can you

1226
01:01:06,920 --> 01:01:08,560
Speaker 3: is there any I missed out? First of all in

1227
01:01:08,600 --> 01:01:10,400
Speaker 3: your bio there that might be relevant for people.

1228
01:01:10,600 --> 01:01:12,800
Speaker 4: No, I think that's a short and sweet I don't

1229
01:01:12,840 --> 01:01:14,040
Speaker 4: need all the details for.

1230
01:01:13,960 --> 01:01:14,640
Speaker 3: Sure, Thank you.

1231
01:01:14,880 --> 01:01:15,080
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1232
01:01:15,120 --> 01:01:18,280
Speaker 3: So, what we're here to talk about today is these

1233
01:01:18,640 --> 01:01:23,080
Speaker 3: sudden the phenomenal I suppose of sudden cardiac arrest, specifically

1234
01:01:23,200 --> 01:01:27,480
Speaker 3: like in young people and young athletes. Because, as many

1235
01:01:27,560 --> 01:01:30,960
Speaker 3: of you will have been aware, this has been increasingly

1236
01:01:31,280 --> 01:01:35,520
Speaker 3: an area in which anti vaxxers and conspiracy theorists have

1237
01:01:35,640 --> 01:01:38,720
Speaker 3: been trying to leverage what is an unfortunate but not

1238
01:01:39,080 --> 01:01:44,040
Speaker 3: unprecedented cardiac arrest, like in this case, most recently Bronnie James,

1239
01:01:44,080 --> 01:01:46,120
Speaker 3: but it has happened before in the number of sports,

1240
01:01:46,280 --> 01:01:48,240
Speaker 3: and they've been trying to leverage us as of quote

1241
01:01:48,400 --> 01:01:51,400
Speaker 3: unquote like prove for evidence that that vaccines are killing

1242
01:01:51,400 --> 01:01:55,320
Speaker 3: otherwise healthy young people, which is nonsense. And I can

1243
01:01:55,360 --> 01:01:56,880
Speaker 3: tell you it's nonsense. But someone who can tell you

1244
01:01:56,920 --> 01:02:00,480
Speaker 3: from much more informed perspective is Glenn so Glinn. Could

1245
01:02:00,480 --> 01:02:03,960
Speaker 3: we start up by maybe talking about how common this

1246
01:02:04,320 --> 01:02:07,680
Speaker 3: sudden cardiac arrest in young athletes is and what we

1247
01:02:07,800 --> 01:02:10,680
Speaker 3: might what hypothethies we might have to what caused it.

1248
01:02:11,920 --> 01:02:13,760
Speaker 4: Sure, well, I mean, first of all, we look more broadly,

1249
01:02:13,800 --> 01:02:17,960
Speaker 4: it's very common. I'm from Canada and we have about

1250
01:02:17,960 --> 01:02:23,360
Speaker 4: thirty five thousand of these every year within young athletes.

1251
01:02:24,160 --> 01:02:27,080
Speaker 4: The data out of the US says that about two

1252
01:02:27,120 --> 01:02:32,200
Speaker 4: thousand die every year from sudden cardiac arrest, and two

1253
01:02:32,280 --> 01:02:36,120
Speaker 4: thirds of these young people do so during some sort

1254
01:02:36,160 --> 01:02:40,400
Speaker 4: of exercise or sporting event. So, in the grand scheme

1255
01:02:40,440 --> 01:02:42,440
Speaker 4: of things, when you have a country of several hundred

1256
01:02:42,440 --> 01:02:46,160
Speaker 4: million people, a thousand or so death like that is,

1257
01:02:46,880 --> 01:02:49,440
Speaker 4: but proportion relatively small. But we've known about this for

1258
01:02:49,480 --> 01:02:51,880
Speaker 4: a long time and these numbers actually really haven't changed

1259
01:02:52,000 --> 01:02:53,960
Speaker 4: very much in decades.

1260
01:02:54,440 --> 01:02:58,520
Speaker 3: Okay, so yeah, there's obviously been a particular increase due

1261
01:02:58,560 --> 01:03:04,120
Speaker 3: to COVID vaccinations, because they're related. I wonder, actually it's evidence.

1262
01:03:04,280 --> 01:03:06,800
Speaker 3: I think I've read some stuff that having COVID or

1263
01:03:06,800 --> 01:03:10,560
Speaker 3: having had COVID multiple times might increase your risk for

1264
01:03:11,000 --> 01:03:13,160
Speaker 3: cardiac arrest. Is that true?

1265
01:03:13,920 --> 01:03:17,080
Speaker 4: Yeah? So broadly so, they haven't looked specifically at cardiac

1266
01:03:17,160 --> 01:03:20,600
Speaker 4: arrest because cardiac arrests typically is in a lot of

1267
01:03:20,600 --> 01:03:23,160
Speaker 4: times the end result of a number of different conditions

1268
01:03:23,160 --> 01:03:29,040
Speaker 4: of cardiac arrhythmias are known to be increased. Patone study

1269
01:03:29,400 --> 01:03:31,959
Speaker 4: showed that what I guess the year and a half

1270
01:03:32,000 --> 01:03:36,600
Speaker 4: ago by now, certainly early in the pandemic, one of

1271
01:03:36,680 --> 01:03:39,120
Speaker 4: the first signs we were seeing people who were being

1272
01:03:39,160 --> 01:03:44,320
Speaker 4: infected were having heart attacks, developing heart failure, these things,

1273
01:03:44,600 --> 01:03:50,280
Speaker 4: and in cardiac arresk the most common cause or cardiac arrhythmius.

1274
01:03:51,400 --> 01:03:55,080
Speaker 4: The Patone study showed. And every time I talk about this,

1275
01:03:55,200 --> 01:03:58,000
Speaker 4: I have to go back and look, because the increase

1276
01:03:58,160 --> 01:04:04,120
Speaker 4: was several hundredfold after COVID, and so I've never really

1277
01:04:04,160 --> 01:04:09,680
Speaker 4: seen anything like that before. So arrhythmias are relatively common

1278
01:04:09,840 --> 01:04:12,640
Speaker 4: in terms in the world of cardiovascular disease, and the

1279
01:04:12,680 --> 01:04:17,160
Speaker 4: fact that COVID the infection, actually increases it, but the

1280
01:04:17,240 --> 01:04:21,720
Speaker 4: vaccines do not means that the risk for some cardiac

1281
01:04:21,760 --> 01:04:24,480
Speaker 4: death really would be highest amongst those who are infected,

1282
01:04:24,960 --> 01:04:26,640
Speaker 4: not those who get vaccines.

1283
01:04:26,880 --> 01:04:31,320
Speaker 3: Okay, do you know offhand if like when we have

1284
01:04:31,440 --> 01:04:33,880
Speaker 3: that maybe this was too early in the pandemic to

1285
01:04:33,920 --> 01:04:37,560
Speaker 3: tell like that risk that comes with having COVID right

1286
01:04:37,560 --> 01:04:41,280
Speaker 3: for having arrhythmia afterwards? Is that risk mitigated by if

1287
01:04:41,320 --> 01:04:44,320
Speaker 3: you're vaccinated and then you get COVID.

1288
01:04:44,800 --> 01:04:49,760
Speaker 4: So yes, there's been some more recent studies beaks. Obviously,

1289
01:04:49,760 --> 01:04:52,800
Speaker 4: early in the pandemic, when we didn't have the vaccines,

1290
01:04:52,840 --> 01:04:56,240
Speaker 4: we couldn't answer that. And then early after vaccines were

1291
01:04:56,240 --> 01:04:58,840
Speaker 4: looking at things like infections, and some of these cardiac

1292
01:04:58,920 --> 01:05:03,720
Speaker 4: issues may not arise until even after the infection is clear.

1293
01:05:03,800 --> 01:05:06,000
Speaker 4: So we see that in people with long COVID, for example,

1294
01:05:06,120 --> 01:05:11,240
Speaker 4: kardiac issues are most common. And so we've seen in

1295
01:05:11,760 --> 01:05:16,560
Speaker 4: some recent studies that people who are in even what

1296
01:05:16,600 --> 01:05:20,760
Speaker 4: they described as partially vaccinated for one or two doses

1297
01:05:21,120 --> 01:05:24,120
Speaker 4: had a reduced risk of what we call MACE, which

1298
01:05:24,160 --> 01:05:27,640
Speaker 4: is a major adverse cardiovascular event. And so that's an

1299
01:05:27,680 --> 01:05:31,040
Speaker 4: all encompassing term, which would be things like stroke, heart attack,

1300
01:05:31,640 --> 01:05:34,360
Speaker 4: you know, things things like that, those major cardiac events.

1301
01:05:34,880 --> 01:05:39,760
Speaker 4: That's data has come out earlier this year, within the

1302
01:05:39,800 --> 01:05:41,120
Speaker 4: last year, a couple of studies.

1303
01:05:41,360 --> 01:05:46,400
Speaker 3: Okay, so circling back to those cardiac arrests, and I

1304
01:05:46,400 --> 01:05:49,520
Speaker 3: guess broke more broadly like cardiac issues in young people

1305
01:05:49,560 --> 01:05:53,520
Speaker 3: and specific in young athletes, something I'm familiar with that

1306
01:05:53,680 --> 01:05:57,600
Speaker 3: with the background in cycling, like I've known people die

1307
01:05:57,680 --> 01:06:00,920
Speaker 3: of cardiac arrests who are otherwise extremely fit. No, I

1308
01:06:00,960 --> 01:06:04,160
Speaker 3: wouldn't necessarily say, like sometimes being fit and being healthy

1309
01:06:04,160 --> 01:06:07,560
Speaker 3: are not the same thing, and certainly the very like

1310
01:06:07,840 --> 01:06:10,160
Speaker 3: point to end of indurance sport. I think the fittest

1311
01:06:10,160 --> 01:06:13,400
Speaker 3: people are not necessarily the healthiest, but very fit sometimes

1312
01:06:13,480 --> 01:06:17,240
Speaker 3: very healthy people have friends of mine have had these issues.

1313
01:06:18,440 --> 01:06:21,880
Speaker 3: Is in those cases and we might not know. I

1314
01:06:21,880 --> 01:06:27,320
Speaker 3: don't know is being an athlete like increasing someone's chance

1315
01:06:27,400 --> 01:06:29,520
Speaker 3: of having those cardiacorists or is it that they have

1316
01:06:29,560 --> 01:06:32,520
Speaker 3: some kind of pre existing condition that's just that's just

1317
01:06:32,520 --> 01:06:33,600
Speaker 3: been underlying for a while.

1318
01:06:35,080 --> 01:06:38,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a good question. What we do know and

1319
01:06:38,320 --> 01:06:42,160
Speaker 4: this this is all data from pre COVID, so it's

1320
01:06:42,200 --> 01:06:45,400
Speaker 4: not something that's been impacted by the pandemic or vaccines.

1321
01:06:46,000 --> 01:06:50,320
Speaker 4: We do know that the rate of sudden cardiac death

1322
01:06:50,360 --> 01:06:52,920
Speaker 4: and the general population is about one in one hundred thousand,

1323
01:06:53,360 --> 01:06:55,840
Speaker 4: and that in athletes, which is a very broad term

1324
01:06:55,880 --> 01:06:58,160
Speaker 4: and we can get into that how to an athlete

1325
01:06:58,320 --> 01:07:01,240
Speaker 4: and things like that, is anywhere from two to four

1326
01:07:01,360 --> 01:07:05,560
Speaker 4: times the rate that that's groups of athletes. Subsections are

1327
01:07:05,560 --> 01:07:12,080
Speaker 4: actually higher, So we know the radius higher in these athletes,

1328
01:07:12,120 --> 01:07:16,360
Speaker 4: typically these high performance athletes. You know why that is,

1329
01:07:16,600 --> 01:07:21,120
Speaker 4: It's an interesting question. It could be the training, for example,

1330
01:07:22,480 --> 01:07:26,120
Speaker 4: puts a stressor on them. So they may have a

1331
01:07:26,160 --> 01:07:29,800
Speaker 4: pre existing condition. They may have a cardiac orarithm of

1332
01:07:29,880 --> 01:07:34,640
Speaker 4: like long Qt syndrome or even something called hypertrophic cardiomopathy.

1333
01:07:34,840 --> 01:07:38,960
Speaker 4: Sometimes they know about it and sometimes they don't, and

1334
01:07:39,000 --> 01:07:41,960
Speaker 4: then the training on top is enough of a trigger.

1335
01:07:42,040 --> 01:07:45,120
Speaker 4: So one of the examples I use in my class

1336
01:07:45,760 --> 01:07:49,320
Speaker 4: is Anthony Evenlous, a soccer player I believe it was

1337
01:07:49,320 --> 01:07:51,760
Speaker 4: in the Netherlands. He was playing. He had a known

1338
01:07:52,960 --> 01:07:55,480
Speaker 4: cardiovascular condition so he had what's called it ic D

1339
01:07:55,720 --> 01:07:59,720
Speaker 4: or planet cardiodefibrillator while he was playing, and he suffered

1340
01:07:59,720 --> 01:08:03,640
Speaker 4: some cardiac death on the field. There's actually video of it,

1341
01:08:03,720 --> 01:08:06,320
Speaker 4: and that shocked him back into rhythm. So you know,

1342
01:08:06,360 --> 01:08:10,240
Speaker 4: some of these people may not know and discover in

1343
01:08:10,280 --> 01:08:14,160
Speaker 4: the course of training, and some may know and opt

1344
01:08:14,200 --> 01:08:16,799
Speaker 4: to take that risk anyway, and then it's the training

1345
01:08:16,840 --> 01:08:18,680
Speaker 4: that or the competition that brings it out.

1346
01:08:18,760 --> 01:08:21,000
Speaker 3: Yeah okay, yeah, yeah, I have a very good friend

1347
01:08:21,080 --> 01:08:25,599
Speaker 3: with ICD and it there's certainly been at the end

1348
01:08:25,600 --> 01:08:28,160
Speaker 3: of a very difficult process for him to have that,

1349
01:08:28,240 --> 01:08:32,599
Speaker 3: and that involve lots of lifestyle changes. And so when

1350
01:08:32,720 --> 01:08:35,920
Speaker 3: we let's what exactly is an athlete in these studies,

1351
01:08:35,960 --> 01:08:37,800
Speaker 3: like is that somebody goes to gym twice a week?

1352
01:08:37,920 --> 01:08:40,120
Speaker 3: Is it someone putting in twenty hours on the bike,

1353
01:08:40,320 --> 01:08:40,519
Speaker 3: like what?

1354
01:08:42,280 --> 01:08:44,639
Speaker 4: So most of the studies that we're talking about, so

1355
01:08:44,800 --> 01:08:47,439
Speaker 4: I assume we're not talking about the people who are

1356
01:08:48,320 --> 01:08:50,920
Speaker 4: claiming that the vaccines are linked to athletes, because they

1357
01:08:50,960 --> 01:08:53,760
Speaker 4: have a very different definition. I can talk about that

1358
01:08:54,160 --> 01:08:57,320
Speaker 4: most of these studies that we're dealing with, where we

1359
01:08:57,360 --> 01:09:00,040
Speaker 4: get these rates that are two to four times higher

1360
01:09:00,080 --> 01:09:03,120
Speaker 4: than the general population or what they refer to as

1361
01:09:03,200 --> 01:09:07,400
Speaker 4: competitive athletes. So for people in the US, these would

1362
01:09:07,400 --> 01:09:10,920
Speaker 4: be your NCAA or college athletes. Some of them are

1363
01:09:10,960 --> 01:09:14,120
Speaker 4: professional athletes, you know, soccer players and the you know,

1364
01:09:14,160 --> 01:09:16,400
Speaker 4: the British League and things like that. So these are

1365
01:09:16,439 --> 01:09:21,040
Speaker 4: people who play at a at a competitive level. Oftentimes

1366
01:09:21,120 --> 01:09:23,840
Speaker 4: they're making a living. I mean, you can argue whether

1367
01:09:24,080 --> 01:09:26,080
Speaker 4: college athletes are making a living out of this, but

1368
01:09:26,120 --> 01:09:29,839
Speaker 4: there's there's some high level of competition in these athletes.

1369
01:09:29,880 --> 01:09:32,519
Speaker 4: That's generally the people that were that these studies are

1370
01:09:32,600 --> 01:09:34,920
Speaker 4: based on, not the guy who goes to the gym

1371
01:09:34,960 --> 01:09:36,360
Speaker 4: twice a week or something like that.

1372
01:09:36,600 --> 01:09:40,240
Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, yeah, so fairly elite. And what is it

1373
01:09:40,360 --> 01:09:42,240
Speaker 3: that you were saying that's different from the claims that

1374
01:09:42,280 --> 01:09:46,559
Speaker 3: these anti vax people or vaccine skeptics or whatever, you know,

1375
01:09:46,800 --> 01:09:49,320
Speaker 3: people who want to say that vaccines are giving people

1376
01:09:49,320 --> 01:09:52,280
Speaker 3: which isn't true. What sort of the definition that they're

1377
01:09:52,360 --> 01:09:54,400
Speaker 3: using or what's the claim that they're making.

1378
01:09:54,439 --> 01:09:58,400
Speaker 4: I guess well, they really don't have a definition, is

1379
01:09:58,439 --> 01:10:03,000
Speaker 4: the problem. So they'll use the term athletes, and I

1380
01:10:03,000 --> 01:10:06,040
Speaker 4: think most people, you know, maybe maybe you don't see

1381
01:10:06,040 --> 01:10:09,240
Speaker 4: an athlete as necessarily being a college or professional level.

1382
01:10:09,520 --> 01:10:12,520
Speaker 4: It could be like a high school athlete who's competing,

1383
01:10:13,040 --> 01:10:14,920
Speaker 4: you know, once or twice a week or whatever, and

1384
01:10:14,920 --> 01:10:18,599
Speaker 4: that's that's fair. But when you look at the lists

1385
01:10:18,760 --> 01:10:21,559
Speaker 4: that they have, I mean, I've talked about this recently

1386
01:10:21,640 --> 01:10:24,800
Speaker 4: and the Died Suddenly movie documentary, whatever you want to

1387
01:10:24,840 --> 01:10:28,559
Speaker 4: call it. The list of people that they have on there.

1388
01:10:28,600 --> 01:10:33,120
Speaker 4: For example, they have musicians, they have a Thai princess

1389
01:10:33,160 --> 01:10:38,040
Speaker 4: on the princess from Thailand on there, and they also

1390
01:10:38,080 --> 01:10:41,240
Speaker 4: have people who died of cancer, someone who got an

1391
01:10:41,280 --> 01:10:45,639
Speaker 4: eye injury. So I'm not really sure, first of all,

1392
01:10:45,640 --> 01:10:48,800
Speaker 4: what their definition of athlete is. I'm not sure what

1393
01:10:48,880 --> 01:10:51,320
Speaker 4: their definition of sudden cardiac death is. When you have

1394
01:10:51,360 --> 01:10:55,040
Speaker 4: people dying of cancer or suffering an eye injury like that,

1395
01:10:55,080 --> 01:10:58,000
Speaker 4: those are are not related at all. There was an

1396
01:10:58,040 --> 01:11:02,280
Speaker 4: earlier list. I think it's related to the Good Sciencing.

1397
01:11:02,320 --> 01:11:05,439
Speaker 4: I wrote about this probably a year or so ago.

1398
01:11:05,880 --> 01:11:07,680
Speaker 4: I went through the list of people that they had

1399
01:11:07,680 --> 01:11:10,439
Speaker 4: on at the time. There was about one hundred, just

1400
01:11:10,439 --> 01:11:12,639
Speaker 4: a little over one hundred people that they cleim died.

1401
01:11:13,320 --> 01:11:18,120
Speaker 4: There were soccer referees on there, there were retired athletes,

1402
01:11:18,200 --> 01:11:20,439
Speaker 4: there were people one guy was out for a hike.

1403
01:11:20,680 --> 01:11:24,080
Speaker 4: He was listed there. Now, you could argue a soccer

1404
01:11:24,080 --> 01:11:28,120
Speaker 4: referee is athletic, certainly, you know, running around the pitch

1405
01:11:28,360 --> 01:11:33,040
Speaker 4: doing that. I could see that. But that person died

1406
01:11:33,160 --> 01:11:36,679
Speaker 4: at home in their sleep, not in competition. The retired

1407
01:11:36,720 --> 01:11:40,320
Speaker 4: soccer player had been retired for six or seven years.

1408
01:11:40,600 --> 01:11:43,320
Speaker 4: So even in the cases where they have athletes, they're

1409
01:11:43,360 --> 01:11:46,800
Speaker 4: really stretching what we would define as an athlete.

1410
01:11:46,840 --> 01:11:49,880
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, And I wonder is it data to show that,

1411
01:11:50,000 --> 01:11:54,280
Speaker 3: like overall mortality is lower in people who are vaccinated

1412
01:11:54,400 --> 01:11:57,800
Speaker 3: than unvaccinated, Like that exists yet?

1413
01:11:58,479 --> 01:12:01,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, So that's what some these these studies that I

1414
01:12:01,160 --> 01:12:06,040
Speaker 4: talked about that were done earlier this this year, there

1415
01:12:06,080 --> 01:12:08,839
Speaker 4: was a it was a JACK study the General American

1416
01:12:08,960 --> 01:12:14,240
Speaker 4: College of Cardiology showed that even people who are partially vaccinated,

1417
01:12:14,560 --> 01:12:19,439
Speaker 4: there's a reduction in these cardivalcular complications. And the JAMA

1418
01:12:19,520 --> 01:12:22,519
Speaker 4: study which was done earlier, specifically focused on am I.

1419
01:12:22,600 --> 01:12:25,160
Speaker 4: So the heart attacks at cute mount cardinal functions, and

1420
01:12:25,240 --> 01:12:27,000
Speaker 4: stroke also lower risk.

1421
01:12:28,160 --> 01:12:30,560
Speaker 3: You were saying earlier that there might be some sports

1422
01:12:30,640 --> 01:12:34,000
Speaker 3: that had even higher rates than those those ones you

1423
01:12:34,040 --> 01:12:36,880
Speaker 3: mentioned over all for athletes. What what sport to those.

1424
01:12:38,000 --> 01:12:42,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, so the one that Spitsman raised recently is basketball.

1425
01:12:44,240 --> 01:12:46,639
Speaker 4: They were, at least in some of these studies done

1426
01:12:47,360 --> 01:12:52,360
Speaker 4: in the US, much higher than other sports. Yeah. So,

1427
01:12:52,439 --> 01:12:55,400
Speaker 4: I mean, you know, basketball is can be an aerobic

1428
01:12:56,520 --> 01:12:58,400
Speaker 4: event and that you're running back and forth, you know,

1429
01:12:58,560 --> 01:13:01,960
Speaker 4: up and down the court quite freely, but it's punctuated

1430
01:13:02,000 --> 01:13:04,920
Speaker 4: by these bursts of of you know, sprints and things

1431
01:13:05,000 --> 01:13:08,120
Speaker 4: like that, which somehow speculated that might kind of be

1432
01:13:08,200 --> 01:13:11,720
Speaker 4: the issue, right that you don't settle into just a

1433
01:13:11,760 --> 01:13:14,040
Speaker 4: simple rhythm I'll say simple rhythm like you know, like

1434
01:13:14,160 --> 01:13:17,240
Speaker 4: riding a bike is. It's not it's obviously simple as

1435
01:13:19,280 --> 01:13:23,240
Speaker 4: as you describe it, but at least potentially there there's

1436
01:13:23,280 --> 01:13:25,360
Speaker 4: periods of time when you can sort of get into

1437
01:13:25,400 --> 01:13:28,760
Speaker 4: a rhythm and stay there and hear it's it's rest

1438
01:13:28,800 --> 01:13:32,760
Speaker 4: periods punctuated by these rapid bursts. And so there's the

1439
01:13:33,880 --> 01:13:35,960
Speaker 4: possibility that that may be related there.

1440
01:13:36,280 --> 01:13:38,200
Speaker 3: Okay, and so that that might be why that there

1441
01:13:38,200 --> 01:13:39,679
Speaker 3: are higher death rates to there.

1442
01:13:39,880 --> 01:13:43,479
Speaker 4: It's possible. Yeah, they're not sure why these things happen

1443
01:13:43,520 --> 01:13:44,920
Speaker 4: to specific.

1444
01:13:44,880 --> 01:13:48,800
Speaker 3: Sports, Okay, are our friends in anti VAXX community show

1445
01:13:49,320 --> 01:13:51,360
Speaker 3: in their own minds why these happened, Like, do they

1446
01:13:51,400 --> 01:13:53,520
Speaker 3: have some kind of hypothesia they're advancing.

1447
01:13:54,720 --> 01:13:58,240
Speaker 4: Uh. No, so that's a good point. They'll say it's

1448
01:13:58,280 --> 01:14:01,599
Speaker 4: the spike protein. I'm sure I've heard that race before.

1449
01:14:03,240 --> 01:14:08,879
Speaker 4: But they don't really explain beyond uh that it's interesting

1450
01:14:08,960 --> 01:14:12,360
Speaker 4: about the spike protein in the vaccines, as it's been

1451
01:14:12,400 --> 01:14:18,840
Speaker 4: modified to not be active. And so you have the

1452
01:14:18,920 --> 01:14:24,960
Speaker 4: spike protein in the virus which causes injury, and yet

1453
01:14:25,000 --> 01:14:28,360
Speaker 4: they don't seem to, you know, acknowledge that that could

1454
01:14:28,400 --> 01:14:31,600
Speaker 4: cause these these issues. And yet the spike protein in

1455
01:14:31,600 --> 01:14:34,639
Speaker 4: the vaccine, which has been designed to limit that injury,

1456
01:14:35,160 --> 01:14:38,439
Speaker 4: somehow overcomes that and actually causes the injury that's not

1457
01:14:38,479 --> 01:14:42,599
Speaker 4: associated with the infection. Like like note that it makes sense, right,

1458
01:14:42,800 --> 01:14:45,439
Speaker 4: you have to work live in these parallel worlds that

1459
01:14:45,720 --> 01:14:48,160
Speaker 4: don't don't ever mix, right.

1460
01:14:48,280 --> 01:14:51,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, so they Yeah, they're suggesting that this protein, which

1461
01:14:51,240 --> 01:14:53,560
Speaker 3: is a modified version of the one that's already in

1462
01:14:53,640 --> 01:14:55,920
Speaker 3: the virus but it's non harmful with one of the

1463
01:14:55,960 --> 01:14:59,880
Speaker 3: virus is harmful. It's because of the modification.

1464
01:15:00,840 --> 01:15:04,360
Speaker 4: Yeah. Certainly a good number of people who don't like

1465
01:15:04,360 --> 01:15:10,320
Speaker 4: the vaccines also claim that covid itself is really not

1466
01:15:10,960 --> 01:15:14,120
Speaker 4: much of a threat. And then so again, I don't

1467
01:15:15,080 --> 01:15:18,000
Speaker 4: I don't see how they can reconcile these these points, right,

1468
01:15:18,120 --> 01:15:19,920
Speaker 4: especially when you're arguing about the same protein, one of

1469
01:15:19,960 --> 01:15:22,800
Speaker 4: which has been modified to be less active, and yet

1470
01:15:22,840 --> 01:15:25,840
Speaker 4: you're saying the less active one is actually more dangerous

1471
01:15:26,120 --> 01:15:27,679
Speaker 4: than it. Just doesn't make any.

1472
01:15:27,520 --> 01:15:29,760
Speaker 3: Sense, right, Yeah, And I think it's kind of not

1473
01:15:31,479 --> 01:15:34,040
Speaker 3: people maybe come to it with a sort of predetermined

1474
01:15:34,080 --> 01:15:38,080
Speaker 3: desire to conclude that the vaccine is dangerous, And I wonder, like,

1475
01:15:38,600 --> 01:15:43,839
Speaker 3: I'm familiar with the exciting cardiac death from my time cycling,

1476
01:15:43,840 --> 01:15:45,840
Speaker 3: and I remember in the early two thousands, so there

1477
01:15:45,880 --> 01:15:48,679
Speaker 3: was this idea that people were dying because their blood

1478
01:15:48,680 --> 01:15:52,400
Speaker 3: had turned like quote I'm quoting from like newspaper articles

1479
01:15:52,400 --> 01:15:55,679
Speaker 3: at the time, too treacle and have become so thick

1480
01:15:55,800 --> 01:15:59,680
Speaker 3: that their heart couldn't pump it anymore, and that this

1481
01:15:59,880 --> 01:16:01,920
Speaker 3: was causing people to die, and the reason that they

1482
01:16:02,000 --> 01:16:04,759
Speaker 3: died was because they were taking excessive amounts of blood

1483
01:16:04,800 --> 01:16:11,400
Speaker 3: boosters like EBO or exog a CPO. And so, I

1484
01:16:11,600 --> 01:16:14,320
Speaker 3: this wasn't true, at least to my knowledge. I don't

1485
01:16:14,320 --> 01:16:17,080
Speaker 3: think any of these people had tested positive. None of

1486
01:16:17,080 --> 01:16:20,760
Speaker 3: them had like autopsies that suggested that this is why

1487
01:16:20,800 --> 01:16:24,800
Speaker 3: they had died. But it seems to me that there's

1488
01:16:24,960 --> 01:16:29,719
Speaker 3: this natural desire to try and explain away these deaths

1489
01:16:29,800 --> 01:16:31,720
Speaker 3: of what people who are at the peak of their

1490
01:16:31,720 --> 01:16:34,880
Speaker 3: physical lives, right, people in their in their teens and twenties,

1491
01:16:34,920 --> 01:16:38,080
Speaker 3: are extremely fit, who we can see doing amazing things,

1492
01:16:38,600 --> 01:16:40,559
Speaker 3: and doesn't sort of line up for us when they die.

1493
01:16:40,600 --> 01:16:42,160
Speaker 3: It doesn't line up with what we think a healthy

1494
01:16:42,200 --> 01:16:44,840
Speaker 3: person is and what we think a cardiac patient is.

1495
01:16:46,200 --> 01:16:49,400
Speaker 3: And so it seems to me that we create these explanations.

1496
01:16:49,560 --> 01:16:52,559
Speaker 3: Is that something you've seen in other areas before the

1497
01:16:52,560 --> 01:16:56,120
Speaker 3: COVID vaccine where there are other sort of conspiracies or

1498
01:16:56,160 --> 01:16:57,799
Speaker 3: just ways to try and explain this away.

1499
01:16:58,920 --> 01:17:01,240
Speaker 4: I don't know about conspiracy. I mean I think people

1500
01:17:01,840 --> 01:17:06,040
Speaker 4: understandably have a hard time reconciling what you just said. Right,

1501
01:17:06,080 --> 01:17:11,240
Speaker 4: you have elite cyclists or whatever sport it is. I mean,

1502
01:17:11,320 --> 01:17:13,599
Speaker 4: cycling is good because aerobically they have to be very fit,

1503
01:17:13,720 --> 01:17:17,080
Speaker 4: and then they die potentially of a cardiac condition, right,

1504
01:17:17,080 --> 01:17:21,280
Speaker 4: So that that makes no sense, you know, So the

1505
01:17:21,360 --> 01:17:23,320
Speaker 4: easiest thing, like you said, is to pay well, they

1506
01:17:23,360 --> 01:17:26,240
Speaker 4: must be doping, they must be taking steroids and you know,

1507
01:17:26,320 --> 01:17:29,880
Speaker 4: something that's going to harm your body. And so that

1508
01:17:29,920 --> 01:17:32,960
Speaker 4: has to be the explanation because it's it's it's easy,

1509
01:17:33,080 --> 01:17:36,040
Speaker 4: that's that's a simple way to get to this. The

1510
01:17:36,280 --> 01:17:39,800
Speaker 4: reality is that a good number of these people have

1511
01:17:39,960 --> 01:17:44,439
Speaker 4: underlying cardiac conditions. Not again, I don't necessarily mean a

1512
01:17:44,479 --> 01:17:46,200
Speaker 4: lot of cyclists have that. What I mean is the

1513
01:17:46,240 --> 01:17:49,799
Speaker 4: people who have these sudden cardiac desks have undiagnosed cardiac

1514
01:17:49,840 --> 01:17:54,720
Speaker 4: conditions long QT. There's a condition called CPVT, you know,

1515
01:17:54,800 --> 01:17:59,759
Speaker 4: something like that, and so they're relatively i'll say benign.

1516
01:18:01,400 --> 01:18:05,200
Speaker 4: TPVT isn't necessarily but it's triggered. These things are triggered

1517
01:18:05,320 --> 01:18:09,320
Speaker 4: by stressful events like exercise and things like that. And

1518
01:18:09,360 --> 01:18:11,799
Speaker 4: so they may live a good part of their life

1519
01:18:13,080 --> 01:18:16,519
Speaker 4: and to be in our seemingly in good health, and

1520
01:18:16,560 --> 01:18:20,400
Speaker 4: then the first sign for many of these people is death.

1521
01:18:21,280 --> 01:18:25,840
Speaker 4: That's the real challenge in dealing with these cases that

1522
01:18:25,920 --> 01:18:28,400
Speaker 4: lead to some cardiac death, because that's the first symptom.

1523
01:18:28,720 --> 01:18:33,000
Speaker 4: People don't feel tired, they don't you know, have chest

1524
01:18:33,040 --> 01:18:35,240
Speaker 4: pains like having a heart attack or anything like that.

1525
01:18:35,560 --> 01:18:38,479
Speaker 4: It's simply something happens. The wiring goes off in the

1526
01:18:38,520 --> 01:18:41,240
Speaker 4: heart and you put the exercise on top of it

1527
01:18:41,520 --> 01:18:45,360
Speaker 4: and they die. You know, it's not just these athletes.

1528
01:18:45,439 --> 01:18:48,240
Speaker 4: You'll have somebody who has a change in one of

1529
01:18:48,280 --> 01:18:51,400
Speaker 4: their genes. They're perfectly fine. Do they live into their

1530
01:18:51,439 --> 01:18:55,120
Speaker 4: sixties and then they suddenly die. Well, what allowed them

1531
01:18:55,120 --> 01:18:58,960
Speaker 4: to live sixty years with you know, no symptoms? We

1532
01:18:59,040 --> 01:19:02,320
Speaker 4: don't really know, but it's not uncommon that the first

1533
01:19:02,320 --> 01:19:06,759
Speaker 4: symptom is death. And these people, so your friends there

1534
01:19:06,920 --> 01:19:10,240
Speaker 4: who you know, it's it's easiest to accuse them of

1535
01:19:10,520 --> 01:19:13,200
Speaker 4: doping because certainly we a lot of us talked about

1536
01:19:13,240 --> 01:19:15,680
Speaker 4: it at the time, as I'm sure you know you

1537
01:19:15,880 --> 01:19:20,960
Speaker 4: knew about it. There's no secret. So we connect those dots, right,

1538
01:19:20,960 --> 01:19:23,160
Speaker 4: we can see that, we can see that, let's connect them.

1539
01:19:23,200 --> 01:19:25,760
Speaker 4: We can't let's see long cut. So we don't know

1540
01:19:25,760 --> 01:19:27,759
Speaker 4: what long QT syndrome is. For a lot of people,

1541
01:19:28,240 --> 01:19:29,960
Speaker 4: it's hard to make that connection when you don't know.

1542
01:19:30,520 --> 01:19:33,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's hard from the perspective of being someone's

1543
01:19:33,080 --> 01:19:34,559
Speaker 3: friend or I can only imagine what it's like for

1544
01:19:34,600 --> 01:19:38,200
Speaker 3: their families to have this, Like I guess them be

1545
01:19:38,360 --> 01:19:42,479
Speaker 3: sort of libeled after they die, you know, or sort

1546
01:19:42,520 --> 01:19:45,200
Speaker 3: of acute of something that they may in many cases,

1547
01:19:45,240 --> 01:19:47,480
Speaker 3: I don't think did do. It must be very difficult

1548
01:19:48,040 --> 01:19:50,160
Speaker 3: to deal with that on top of losing someone you love.

1549
01:19:51,000 --> 01:19:53,479
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, and we're seeing that again here with the

1550
01:19:53,840 --> 01:19:58,320
Speaker 4: people who oppose the vaccines, which is either their assuming

1551
01:19:58,400 --> 01:20:03,400
Speaker 4: things or they're speculating on things. And you know, unless

1552
01:20:03,400 --> 01:20:07,679
Speaker 4: you're in the circle of care, you don't know what's

1553
01:20:07,720 --> 01:20:10,519
Speaker 4: what's going on. So, you know, you talked about Lebron

1554
01:20:10,600 --> 01:20:13,320
Speaker 4: James on here. You know, does he have an un

1555
01:20:13,840 --> 01:20:16,840
Speaker 4: underlying condition? We don't know, and it you know, it's

1556
01:20:16,920 --> 01:20:19,599
Speaker 4: it's really not helpful for me to sit here and say, well,

1557
01:20:19,960 --> 01:20:22,960
Speaker 4: he could have long QT, he could have CPGBT like here,

1558
01:20:23,000 --> 01:20:26,120
Speaker 4: you know, to speculate like like that. I can talk

1559
01:20:26,160 --> 01:20:29,599
Speaker 4: about what are some things that lead to these these

1560
01:20:29,600 --> 01:20:33,519
Speaker 4: conditions generally in people, But I don't know anything about

1561
01:20:33,560 --> 01:20:36,439
Speaker 4: his health, and so it's not helpful for me to

1562
01:20:36,479 --> 01:20:39,000
Speaker 4: sit here and speculate on that while his family and

1563
01:20:39,000 --> 01:20:41,000
Speaker 4: then he himself is trying to you know, sort of

1564
01:20:41,000 --> 01:20:43,400
Speaker 4: get through that. That's you know, that's I'm sure that's

1565
01:20:43,439 --> 01:20:45,719
Speaker 4: upsetting for them. So I'm not sure why people feel

1566
01:20:45,720 --> 01:20:50,160
Speaker 4: the need to do that, except to advance their own agenda.

1567
01:20:49,840 --> 01:20:52,559
Speaker 3: Right yes, yeah, I think that is the case. So

1568
01:20:53,400 --> 01:20:55,599
Speaker 3: let's talk a little bit about how we can I guess,

1569
01:20:55,600 --> 01:21:00,080
Speaker 3: mitigate these risks and that exist. I remember when and

1570
01:21:00,120 --> 01:21:03,320
Speaker 3: you're getting a license in Spain and they make you

1571
01:21:03,360 --> 01:21:05,680
Speaker 3: take a cardiac stress test there, like you get you

1572
01:21:05,760 --> 01:21:07,479
Speaker 3: ride your bike on a treadmill and they just ramp

1573
01:21:07,479 --> 01:21:09,200
Speaker 3: it up into your heart rates in the one nineties

1574
01:21:09,280 --> 01:21:11,960
Speaker 3: or whatever. And I don't know what they were doing,

1575
01:21:12,479 --> 01:21:15,200
Speaker 3: but they made us. I think that may only have

1576
01:21:15,240 --> 01:21:17,400
Speaker 3: been for like elite athletes, but they made us all

1577
01:21:17,439 --> 01:21:21,040
Speaker 3: do that. Is that something where if there was an

1578
01:21:21,120 --> 01:21:23,479
Speaker 3: underlying one of these underlying risk factors that you mentioned,

1579
01:21:23,600 --> 01:21:25,680
Speaker 3: would would it be spotted on a test like that?

1580
01:21:27,000 --> 01:21:30,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a little bit of a controversial area. So

1581
01:21:30,720 --> 01:21:35,880
Speaker 4: I noticed you said in Spain. In Europe, the consensus

1582
01:21:35,960 --> 01:21:38,479
Speaker 4: is that athletes need to go through these what we

1583
01:21:38,600 --> 01:21:42,360
Speaker 4: call pre screening ECGs. So you were probably you know,

1584
01:21:42,400 --> 01:21:44,880
Speaker 4: probably had electrodes on your body. Yeah, yeah, And so

1585
01:21:45,160 --> 01:21:48,200
Speaker 4: that's a simple, non evasive test. And so you're right

1586
01:21:50,800 --> 01:21:55,040
Speaker 4: because some things you can pick up just rest, but

1587
01:21:55,400 --> 01:21:57,320
Speaker 4: some of these things don't appear and tell you you

1588
01:21:57,320 --> 01:22:01,560
Speaker 4: stress the individual, and so they'll look for rhythm problems.

1589
01:22:02,320 --> 01:22:04,439
Speaker 4: The other test is what we call eco cardiography, which

1590
01:22:04,479 --> 01:22:07,360
Speaker 4: is basically an ultrasound of the heart, and there you

1591
01:22:07,400 --> 01:22:10,040
Speaker 4: can look at function, but you can also look at structure.

1592
01:22:10,240 --> 01:22:16,000
Speaker 4: Because there's a condition called hypertrophic cardiomopathy, it's relatively common

1593
01:22:16,160 --> 01:22:20,080
Speaker 4: in athletes. It's more common there, and that accounts for

1594
01:22:20,160 --> 01:22:23,599
Speaker 4: about fifty percent of these sudden cardiac deaths. And so

1595
01:22:24,280 --> 01:22:26,479
Speaker 4: you can pick that up on an ECG, but you

1596
01:22:26,560 --> 01:22:29,200
Speaker 4: can also pick it up using ultrasounds. So if you

1597
01:22:29,280 --> 01:22:32,400
Speaker 4: scan the heart you see that it's very large, that

1598
01:22:32,439 --> 01:22:36,000
Speaker 4: would be a diagnosis. So first in Europe they do that.

1599
01:22:36,560 --> 01:22:39,599
Speaker 4: In North America and Canada and the United States they

1600
01:22:39,600 --> 01:22:43,280
Speaker 4: do not. The concern is there's a couple of concerns.

1601
01:22:43,320 --> 01:22:47,519
Speaker 4: One is the price, so you can you're screening large

1602
01:22:47,560 --> 01:22:53,160
Speaker 4: numbers of athletes to pick out a relative small number

1603
01:22:53,520 --> 01:22:56,800
Speaker 4: who may be affected. It's crude, but that is an

1604
01:22:56,880 --> 01:22:59,920
Speaker 4: argument that people make. So I guess the question comes

1605
01:22:59,960 --> 01:23:02,320
Speaker 4: to how much is life worth to you and how

1606
01:23:02,360 --> 01:23:04,360
Speaker 4: much do you want to spend. So there is that.

1607
01:23:04,400 --> 01:23:06,880
Speaker 4: But there is another issue, which is what they call

1608
01:23:06,960 --> 01:23:12,160
Speaker 4: false positives. So you know, had you been diagnosed as

1609
01:23:12,240 --> 01:23:14,240
Speaker 4: having a condition, then you maybe pulled out of training

1610
01:23:14,280 --> 01:23:16,000
Speaker 4: for a little while while they do more tests and

1611
01:23:16,000 --> 01:23:19,840
Speaker 4: stuff like that that could be very stressful on you.

1612
01:23:19,920 --> 01:23:24,120
Speaker 4: And so the view in North America's there's an unacceptably

1613
01:23:24,200 --> 01:23:29,759
Speaker 4: high number of those false positives, and so they feel

1614
01:23:29,760 --> 01:23:34,040
Speaker 4: that it's not worth worth doing the other issue. So

1615
01:23:34,080 --> 01:23:36,479
Speaker 4: I'm not sure when when did you do this screening?

1616
01:23:36,560 --> 01:23:37,879
Speaker 4: Was it like twenty years.

1617
01:23:37,720 --> 01:23:40,880
Speaker 3: Or no, ten years ago? Probably like twenty ten eleven.

1618
01:23:41,760 --> 01:23:46,439
Speaker 4: Yeah, So one of the issues that we have is

1619
01:23:46,640 --> 01:23:49,960
Speaker 4: when you have these high performance athletes, their hearts change,

1620
01:23:50,040 --> 01:23:54,439
Speaker 4: they get bigger, they get more efficient, their rhythms change,

1621
01:23:54,840 --> 01:23:58,280
Speaker 4: and they have conditions that we would pick up on

1622
01:23:58,320 --> 01:24:04,200
Speaker 4: ECGs and ECHO that would be considered pathological, right, But

1623
01:24:04,479 --> 01:24:08,240
Speaker 4: because they're athletes, these are changes that do occur in

1624
01:24:08,280 --> 01:24:12,160
Speaker 4: athletes as their hearts remodel, and they're not a sign

1625
01:24:12,160 --> 01:24:15,160
Speaker 4: of disease. Right. If you took someone who wasn't highly

1626
01:24:15,160 --> 01:24:17,719
Speaker 4: fit and had so for example, if you screen someone's

1627
01:24:17,760 --> 01:24:20,639
Speaker 4: heart and you saw that it was very large and

1628
01:24:20,720 --> 01:24:23,920
Speaker 4: they didn't exercise, you might be concerned. But if you're

1629
01:24:24,160 --> 01:24:26,639
Speaker 4: you know, an elite cyclist where your heart gets very big,

1630
01:24:26,720 --> 01:24:29,439
Speaker 4: it's going to be bigger. And so what we have

1631
01:24:29,520 --> 01:24:31,800
Speaker 4: struggled with for a number of years, is what is

1632
01:24:31,960 --> 01:24:37,800
Speaker 4: normal in the athlete that would be considered abnormal in

1633
01:24:37,840 --> 01:24:41,519
Speaker 4: the general population. Italy has done a really good job

1634
01:24:41,560 --> 01:24:44,040
Speaker 4: on this. So start going back into the nineteen eighties,

1635
01:24:44,080 --> 01:24:46,439
Speaker 4: they started to collect data because that's what we need, right,

1636
01:24:46,439 --> 01:24:50,719
Speaker 4: we need data from athletes, and they created a huge

1637
01:24:51,040 --> 01:24:54,080
Speaker 4: database which actually used in my class now to teach

1638
01:24:54,120 --> 01:24:56,960
Speaker 4: and say, you know, if you have an athlete and

1639
01:24:57,040 --> 01:24:59,360
Speaker 4: you see these things, these are things we wouldn't be

1640
01:24:59,400 --> 01:25:02,719
Speaker 4: concerned about. Or here's some markers where we might be concerned,

1641
01:25:02,760 --> 01:25:04,360
Speaker 4: and so we have to look further. And then here's

1642
01:25:04,360 --> 01:25:06,480
Speaker 4: some things where it doesn't matter whether you're an athlete

1643
01:25:06,800 --> 01:25:09,759
Speaker 4: or you know, someone who sits on their couch all day,

1644
01:25:10,000 --> 01:25:14,200
Speaker 4: that's a problem. But without that data, we didn't we

1645
01:25:14,240 --> 01:25:16,800
Speaker 4: didn't have that ability. And so I think the last

1646
01:25:16,800 --> 01:25:20,759
Speaker 4: time is twenty eighteen. The Europeans updated their their criteria.

1647
01:25:20,800 --> 01:25:23,120
Speaker 4: Each time they update it, you know, we add new

1648
01:25:23,200 --> 01:25:26,200
Speaker 4: things or modify things that are in there. So you

1649
01:25:26,200 --> 01:25:28,759
Speaker 4: would have had abnormal things. You may have had abnormal

1650
01:25:28,800 --> 01:25:31,800
Speaker 4: things on your ACG that the cardiologist would have looked

1651
01:25:31,800 --> 01:25:34,040
Speaker 4: at it and said, well, according to our athlete standards,

1652
01:25:34,200 --> 01:25:37,200
Speaker 4: that's okay, and we're going to ignore it. And we

1653
01:25:37,240 --> 01:25:39,080
Speaker 4: didn't have that until relatively recently.

1654
01:25:39,520 --> 01:25:43,120
Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, I do remember think like having a resting

1655
01:25:43,160 --> 01:25:46,360
Speaker 3: heart rate, which we'd be considered like pathologically or like

1656
01:25:46,479 --> 01:25:49,160
Speaker 3: dangerously low with the thing.

1657
01:25:49,520 --> 01:25:51,800
Speaker 4: Get yeah, braid of cardio. So it's called braid of

1658
01:25:51,840 --> 01:25:56,439
Speaker 4: cardia is obviously very common, right, And I give an

1659
01:25:56,439 --> 01:25:58,760
Speaker 4: example of my class every year where you know you

1660
01:25:58,760 --> 01:26:01,200
Speaker 4: have an athlete, their heart it can be forty beats

1661
01:26:01,200 --> 01:26:04,559
Speaker 4: for a minute. And so I said, you know you

1662
01:26:04,560 --> 01:26:07,519
Speaker 4: would ignore that. You go, well, they're ear elite cyclist.

1663
01:26:07,680 --> 01:26:09,920
Speaker 4: I get that. And I give an example where it's

1664
01:26:09,920 --> 01:26:11,960
Speaker 4: a woman, she's sixty three years old. They're resting heart

1665
01:26:12,040 --> 01:26:14,800
Speaker 4: rates forty two beats a minute. She doesn't do any exercise,

1666
01:26:15,400 --> 01:26:17,800
Speaker 4: and the physicians are like, oh, she must be very healthy.

1667
01:26:17,840 --> 01:26:20,519
Speaker 4: I'm like, no, that's not normal. And so it turned

1668
01:26:20,560 --> 01:26:24,000
Speaker 4: out so the reason they flagged her was because she

1669
01:26:24,080 --> 01:26:27,599
Speaker 4: kept passing out because she was bred a kartick and

1670
01:26:27,680 --> 01:26:30,160
Speaker 4: she eventually broke her nose and was sent to the hospital.

1671
01:26:30,160 --> 01:26:32,760
Speaker 4: They did a genetic test and found that she had

1672
01:26:32,760 --> 01:26:38,679
Speaker 4: a cardiac arrhythmia. Right, So my what I always teach

1673
01:26:38,720 --> 01:26:41,639
Speaker 4: my students is don't just look at the monitor, look

1674
01:26:41,640 --> 01:26:44,519
Speaker 4: at your patient, right, So when your heart rates forty

1675
01:26:44,520 --> 01:26:47,200
Speaker 4: beats a minute and they're cycling away and you know,

1676
01:26:47,720 --> 01:26:49,639
Speaker 4: he's like, yeah, that person's very fit. As like when

1677
01:26:49,640 --> 01:26:51,599
Speaker 4: you look and they're eighty years old and they're passing out,

1678
01:26:52,840 --> 01:26:55,240
Speaker 4: forty beats a minute is not normal, right, And so

1679
01:26:56,160 --> 01:26:58,280
Speaker 4: we don't need real high standards for some of these things,

1680
01:26:58,320 --> 01:26:59,160
Speaker 4: but some of them we did.

1681
01:27:00,479 --> 01:27:03,920
Speaker 3: And I wonder like people listening will probably be sufficiently

1682
01:27:03,960 --> 01:27:07,640
Speaker 3: afraid now, but I'm not, hopefully not too afraid. But like,

1683
01:27:08,320 --> 01:27:10,760
Speaker 3: lots of people these days are monitoring their heart rate

1684
01:27:10,880 --> 01:27:13,400
Speaker 3: all the time, right, They have watches, they have wristbands

1685
01:27:13,439 --> 01:27:16,559
Speaker 3: when they're exercising, they have chest bans, so you can

1686
01:27:16,760 --> 01:27:18,439
Speaker 3: monitor your heart real kinds of basics the states you

1687
01:27:18,439 --> 01:27:23,200
Speaker 3: can wear a ring. Would any of those devices be

1688
01:27:23,400 --> 01:27:27,719
Speaker 3: useful in predicting or seeing families things?

1689
01:27:28,760 --> 01:27:34,719
Speaker 4: Not really, only because they're they're very limited. So it's

1690
01:27:34,760 --> 01:27:36,960
Speaker 4: great people measure their heart rate because it is a

1691
01:27:36,960 --> 01:27:39,719
Speaker 4: general sign of health, and so good lowering rest lower

1692
01:27:39,760 --> 01:27:42,240
Speaker 4: resting heart rates is very good. And when you're exercising,

1693
01:27:42,240 --> 01:27:44,280
Speaker 4: you want to bring your heart rate into certain zones

1694
01:27:45,400 --> 01:27:47,840
Speaker 4: have effective worker. So that's all great, So I'm not

1695
01:27:47,960 --> 01:27:51,400
Speaker 4: trying to discurage people from doing that. But if you

1696
01:27:51,479 --> 01:27:55,120
Speaker 4: want to diagnose long QT syndrome, for example, in somebody,

1697
01:27:56,280 --> 01:27:59,040
Speaker 4: that requires calculations. So for sure, you need to measure

1698
01:27:59,160 --> 01:28:03,160
Speaker 4: things very accurate. Really, when I'm sure when you had

1699
01:28:03,280 --> 01:28:06,680
Speaker 4: your your traits done, you would have had multiple electrodes

1700
01:28:06,680 --> 01:28:11,519
Speaker 4: stuck on your your body. Yeah, we typically do what's

1701
01:28:11,520 --> 01:28:15,599
Speaker 4: called the twelve lead ECG, and so there's there's multiple

1702
01:28:15,600 --> 01:28:19,960
Speaker 4: electrodes and they have to be positioned in certain places

1703
01:28:20,000 --> 01:28:22,960
Speaker 4: in order to measure how the heart basically the heart's

1704
01:28:22,960 --> 01:28:25,880
Speaker 4: electricity is flowing in a certain directions because that actually

1705
01:28:25,920 --> 01:28:29,960
Speaker 4: tells us something. So when you have I mean, I

1706
01:28:30,000 --> 01:28:32,720
Speaker 4: have a device that I used to teach and to

1707
01:28:33,080 --> 01:28:35,040
Speaker 4: illustrate people, and it's on the back of my cell phone,

1708
01:28:35,080 --> 01:28:36,559
Speaker 4: and they could just you know, you put your fingers

1709
01:28:36,600 --> 01:28:39,559
Speaker 4: on it and you can you can you can measure

1710
01:28:39,560 --> 01:28:41,760
Speaker 4: things and you get an ECG off that and so

1711
01:28:41,800 --> 01:28:45,360
Speaker 4: it looks really neat and it's great for teaching. But

1712
01:28:45,520 --> 01:28:48,120
Speaker 4: I'm not going to diagnose somebody with Goddess syndrome or

1713
01:28:48,160 --> 01:28:50,640
Speaker 4: long QT or any of those those things. Those are

1714
01:28:50,720 --> 01:28:57,080
Speaker 4: much more in depth, uh to, It's required much more

1715
01:28:57,080 --> 01:28:59,000
Speaker 4: in depth equipment to do something.

1716
01:28:58,720 --> 01:29:02,519
Speaker 3: Like that, right, Yeah, yeah, definitely. Like sometimes when you

1717
01:29:02,600 --> 01:29:04,760
Speaker 3: ride under electricity pilots, you'll see a heart rate of

1718
01:29:04,760 --> 01:29:07,320
Speaker 3: two hundred and forty and it will be concerning Oh yeah, okay,

1719
01:29:08,200 --> 01:29:10,800
Speaker 3: it didn't work out what was connected to it. And

1720
01:29:10,920 --> 01:29:15,400
Speaker 3: so if these things are occurring, and obviously they care.

1721
01:29:15,479 --> 01:29:17,960
Speaker 3: It's sort of at a certain percentage of young athletes

1722
01:29:18,000 --> 01:29:22,080
Speaker 3: and certain percentage anywhere else. Are there ways that these

1723
01:29:22,600 --> 01:29:25,040
Speaker 3: certain kindiak risks we could reduce the number of them

1724
01:29:25,080 --> 01:29:26,639
Speaker 3: that result in death?

1725
01:29:27,320 --> 01:29:33,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, no, for sure, so CPR. So the people who

1726
01:29:33,479 --> 01:29:37,439
Speaker 4: die quite often die because there's there's nobody there to

1727
01:29:37,439 --> 01:29:43,000
Speaker 4: administer CPR, and so you lose that very valuable time.

1728
01:29:43,960 --> 01:29:48,760
Speaker 4: And so people are concerned about you know, stepping in

1729
01:29:48,800 --> 01:29:52,439
Speaker 4: and doing something and potentially hurting someone. If someone is

1730
01:29:52,520 --> 01:29:55,320
Speaker 4: dead like that, you're not going to hurt them, right,

1731
01:29:55,360 --> 01:30:00,200
Speaker 4: So you know, please learn CPR. It's not difficulty. Can

1732
01:30:00,200 --> 01:30:08,000
Speaker 4: certainly do that. You know. In Canada, abouteen years ago now,

1733
01:30:08,080 --> 01:30:11,759
Speaker 4: the Heart instruct Foundation of Canada raised a tremendous amount

1734
01:30:11,760 --> 01:30:14,559
Speaker 4: of money to put we call automatic extrung defibrillators or

1735
01:30:14,560 --> 01:30:18,880
Speaker 4: AEDs in public places. I think they put fifteen thousand

1736
01:30:18,960 --> 01:30:23,599
Speaker 4: of them, plus companies will buy them for o their

1737
01:30:23,600 --> 01:30:27,599
Speaker 4: workplaces and things like that. And so if someone goes

1738
01:30:27,640 --> 01:30:30,800
Speaker 4: down and their heart stops, you take these things out.

1739
01:30:31,320 --> 01:30:34,400
Speaker 4: There's some patches. It comes with instructions, like it will

1740
01:30:34,439 --> 01:30:37,200
Speaker 4: tell you actually what to do, and you take it out,

1741
01:30:37,240 --> 01:30:39,519
Speaker 4: you put the patches on the individual, you step back

1742
01:30:39,560 --> 01:30:42,680
Speaker 4: because it will deliver a shock and it will automatically

1743
01:30:42,720 --> 01:30:45,080
Speaker 4: shock their heart trying to get it back into rhythm.

1744
01:30:45,240 --> 01:30:48,479
Speaker 4: So knowing where those are, I'll say, knowing how to

1745
01:30:48,520 --> 01:30:50,920
Speaker 4: do them, you don't necessarily need to practice because it

1746
01:30:50,920 --> 01:30:52,800
Speaker 4: will walk you through it. But at least knowing where

1747
01:30:52,800 --> 01:30:56,720
Speaker 4: they are and not being afraid to use them, I

1748
01:30:56,720 --> 01:31:03,000
Speaker 4: think is very important. These quick reactions in administering care

1749
01:31:03,120 --> 01:31:09,560
Speaker 4: before the paramedics or someone else gets there is super important.

1750
01:31:09,720 --> 01:31:13,400
Speaker 4: If you let someone go five ten minutes without any

1751
01:31:13,960 --> 01:31:16,639
Speaker 4: you know, CPR or anything like that, there's a tremendous

1752
01:31:16,640 --> 01:31:19,479
Speaker 4: amount of damage that's that's done and it can't be overcome.

1753
01:31:19,960 --> 01:31:21,920
Speaker 3: Okay, Yeah, And I think in a lot of places

1754
01:31:21,960 --> 01:31:25,480
Speaker 3: in the US, certainly, like you can access free CPI

1755
01:31:25,720 --> 01:31:29,640
Speaker 3: AED training or your employee might pay for it or

1756
01:31:29,760 --> 01:31:32,000
Speaker 3: and I didn't do you know any resources people could

1757
01:31:32,040 --> 01:31:34,719
Speaker 3: use to find where they can find that free training.

1758
01:31:36,080 --> 01:31:38,840
Speaker 4: So in the States, that's the American Heart Association would

1759
01:31:38,840 --> 01:31:42,000
Speaker 4: be a good place to go, the American Red Crop.

1760
01:31:42,840 --> 01:31:46,559
Speaker 4: I'm sure they'll have resources in Canada's heartstruct Foundation of Canada,

1761
01:31:46,880 --> 01:31:49,200
Speaker 4: Saint John's Ambulance. But like you said, a lot of

1762
01:31:49,800 --> 01:31:52,400
Speaker 4: just you know, local community centers will put these things

1763
01:31:52,439 --> 01:31:56,160
Speaker 4: on a couple of times a year, you know, just

1764
01:31:56,280 --> 01:31:58,760
Speaker 4: so that people are familiar with with how to do it.

1765
01:31:59,080 --> 01:32:01,640
Speaker 4: Work places will sometimes do it once or twice a

1766
01:32:01,720 --> 01:32:04,639
Speaker 4: year have training a lot of people to just learn

1767
01:32:04,680 --> 01:32:08,000
Speaker 4: how to how to do it. Yeah, I'm not sure

1768
01:32:08,000 --> 01:32:09,880
Speaker 4: where people if you just go on the internet and

1769
01:32:09,960 --> 01:32:12,960
Speaker 4: wherever you are and look for first day, a lot

1770
01:32:12,960 --> 01:32:14,280
Speaker 4: of times it falls on the first day. But if

1771
01:32:14,280 --> 01:32:17,320
Speaker 4: you just google your city and CPR, I'm sure something

1772
01:32:17,320 --> 01:32:19,280
Speaker 4: will come up. And I bet there's something this month

1773
01:32:19,320 --> 01:32:20,599
Speaker 4: you could go to NICs.

1774
01:32:20,680 --> 01:32:22,479
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, we've spoken before about to Stop the Bleed

1775
01:32:22,600 --> 01:32:25,160
Speaker 3: courses and how they're wills, free and easy to exist,

1776
01:32:25,160 --> 01:32:27,120
Speaker 3: so people could do both of those to be really

1777
01:32:27,160 --> 01:32:30,479
Speaker 3: set up to help people. Glenn, is there anything else

1778
01:32:30,560 --> 01:32:33,639
Speaker 3: you think people ought to know about these seven seven

1779
01:32:33,680 --> 01:32:37,840
Speaker 3: kadiak arrisk guy there sort of with the conspiracy theories

1780
01:32:37,840 --> 01:32:39,639
Speaker 3: around them, or anything else they can do to protect

1781
01:32:39,640 --> 01:32:40,639
Speaker 3: themselves through other people.

1782
01:32:41,360 --> 01:32:47,840
Speaker 4: Well, I think there's the perception that that by saying

1783
01:32:47,840 --> 01:32:50,040
Speaker 4: that there's not an issue, that it means we don't

1784
01:32:50,160 --> 01:32:53,280
Speaker 4: we don't care. In fact, we do care about these

1785
01:32:53,320 --> 01:32:55,479
Speaker 4: these issues. Like I said, I've taught about this for

1786
01:32:56,400 --> 01:32:58,679
Speaker 4: you know, over a decade. I have a background and

1787
01:32:59,600 --> 01:33:02,320
Speaker 4: doing some sports medicine work a long time ago. I

1788
01:33:02,400 --> 01:33:10,000
Speaker 4: certainly have a strong interest in helping these people. When

1789
01:33:10,040 --> 01:33:14,040
Speaker 4: we say the risk is not going up, it doesn't

1790
01:33:14,080 --> 01:33:18,320
Speaker 4: mean that we don't care. And so you know when

1791
01:33:18,840 --> 01:33:21,280
Speaker 4: a soccer player, a football player, somebody goes down on

1792
01:33:21,320 --> 01:33:23,599
Speaker 4: the court, that we just say, well, yeah, it happens.

1793
01:33:24,240 --> 01:33:26,800
Speaker 4: That's not what we're saying. We're saying we know these

1794
01:33:26,840 --> 01:33:30,000
Speaker 4: things happen, we do care about them. I would actually

1795
01:33:30,040 --> 01:33:33,040
Speaker 4: flip this around the other way and say some of

1796
01:33:33,080 --> 01:33:35,439
Speaker 4: these people, the people who I'm talking about, the people

1797
01:33:35,479 --> 01:33:37,519
Speaker 4: who are profiting off that's not people who are like

1798
01:33:37,560 --> 01:33:41,479
Speaker 4: I had no idea this was happening. That's okay. You know,

1799
01:33:41,680 --> 01:33:45,240
Speaker 4: not everybody can know everything. But the people who are

1800
01:33:45,280 --> 01:33:48,599
Speaker 4: saying this is increasing and they're making money off these

1801
01:33:48,640 --> 01:33:52,840
Speaker 4: things by selling their movies and whatever. Did you not

1802
01:33:53,160 --> 01:33:57,439
Speaker 4: care when someone you know died in twenty fifteen because

1803
01:33:57,720 --> 01:34:01,360
Speaker 4: they were in twenty nineteen or die and kids were

1804
01:34:01,360 --> 01:34:03,160
Speaker 4: doing it? And if you'd like to come to my class,

1805
01:34:03,200 --> 01:34:05,439
Speaker 4: I can show you, you know, the pictures of these

1806
01:34:05,479 --> 01:34:09,880
Speaker 4: people because you weren't around then. And I'm wondering, I'm

1807
01:34:09,920 --> 01:34:11,960
Speaker 4: not really wondering why you're around now. I know why

1808
01:34:12,040 --> 01:34:14,760
Speaker 4: they're they're around now. They're they're profiting off of this,

1809
01:34:16,040 --> 01:34:18,000
Speaker 4: and so I would actually flip it the other way

1810
01:34:18,040 --> 01:34:22,120
Speaker 4: and say, you know, have them ask ask them why

1811
01:34:22,200 --> 01:34:24,560
Speaker 4: is this new to them when when we've when the

1812
01:34:24,680 --> 01:34:26,400
Speaker 4: data show this has been happening all.

1813
01:34:26,280 --> 01:34:30,000
Speaker 3: Along, right, Yeah, And by encouraging people not to get vaccinated,

1814
01:34:30,000 --> 01:34:32,000
Speaker 3: they're encouraging those people to place themselves at a higher

1815
01:34:32,080 --> 01:34:36,160
Speaker 3: risk for the cardiac issues right for presumably a profit

1816
01:34:36,200 --> 01:34:41,680
Speaker 3: motive in some cases, which is very sad. Glenn, Where

1817
01:34:41,720 --> 01:34:44,320
Speaker 3: can people you do some excellent threads on Twitter so

1818
01:34:44,880 --> 01:34:47,280
Speaker 3: people can learn a lot about heart stuff? There is

1819
01:34:47,320 --> 01:34:50,600
Speaker 3: there anywhere else or where do you prefer people to

1820
01:34:50,640 --> 01:34:53,479
Speaker 3: find you? I guess online.

1821
01:34:54,680 --> 01:34:56,719
Speaker 4: Yeah, No, we do a lot of social media stuff.

1822
01:34:56,720 --> 01:34:59,400
Speaker 4: There's a lot of I know people complain about Twitter.

1823
01:34:59,400 --> 01:35:04,439
Speaker 4: I complain about but there's a lot of really Twitter.

1824
01:35:05,280 --> 01:35:09,120
Speaker 4: There a lot of really good people on there who

1825
01:35:09,720 --> 01:35:12,960
Speaker 4: you know, present their information. You know, you can just

1826
01:35:13,080 --> 01:35:15,600
Speaker 4: want to look for for those people there. What I

1827
01:35:15,640 --> 01:35:19,640
Speaker 4: would say is like, how do you identify who are

1828
01:35:19,640 --> 01:35:21,400
Speaker 4: the good people who you can trust? And stuff? Is

1829
01:35:21,760 --> 01:35:24,840
Speaker 4: the people who are able to be transparent with where

1830
01:35:24,880 --> 01:35:29,720
Speaker 4: they get their information. Right. So when I say, you know,

1831
01:35:29,760 --> 01:35:33,599
Speaker 4: the vaccines reduced your risk of these major cardiovascular events,

1832
01:35:34,240 --> 01:35:37,360
Speaker 4: I typically provide a study or something like that to

1833
01:35:37,439 --> 01:35:41,320
Speaker 4: show where I got that information. The people who are

1834
01:35:41,400 --> 01:35:44,880
Speaker 4: less trustworthy will say, you know, either go find it

1835
01:35:44,920 --> 01:35:48,720
Speaker 4: yourself because they don't know, or well, I can see it,

1836
01:35:49,040 --> 01:35:52,040
Speaker 4: I know it's happening. You know, a lot of these

1837
01:35:52,040 --> 01:35:54,479
Speaker 4: things are measurable, so we should be able to to

1838
01:35:54,520 --> 01:35:57,360
Speaker 4: find those. A lot of us write on things I've

1839
01:35:57,360 --> 01:36:00,559
Speaker 4: written for the Conversation Shi It's two point zero things

1840
01:36:00,560 --> 01:36:04,240
Speaker 4: will be there. But social media is a good place

1841
01:36:04,280 --> 01:36:06,760
Speaker 4: to go because you can interact with people and you

1842
01:36:06,800 --> 01:36:11,559
Speaker 4: can ask those those questions. So yeah, yeah, you can

1843
01:36:11,600 --> 01:36:12,960
Speaker 4: reach out to me and see who I follow on

1844
01:36:12,960 --> 01:36:16,640
Speaker 4: who I interact with if if, if you're interested in that,

1845
01:36:17,160 --> 01:36:18,960
Speaker 4: you could take that as a good or a bad sign. However,

1846
01:36:19,080 --> 01:36:19,479
Speaker 4: if you.

1847
01:36:19,360 --> 01:36:21,799
Speaker 3: Want to, what's your handle on Twitter?

1848
01:36:23,040 --> 01:36:26,840
Speaker 4: So my handle is glengey l E and pile p

1849
01:36:27,040 --> 01:36:29,400
Speaker 4: y l E. I'm also on the sky. I just

1850
01:36:29,560 --> 01:36:31,120
Speaker 4: joined that the other day, so nice.

1851
01:36:31,200 --> 01:36:34,960
Speaker 3: Congratulations. Yeah, that's great. I think the last point you

1852
01:36:35,040 --> 01:36:37,759
Speaker 3: made is one that we should maybe pursue another episode

1853
01:36:37,800 --> 01:36:41,559
Speaker 3: on because we the difference between anecdote and data and

1854
01:36:42,000 --> 01:36:44,800
Speaker 3: like so there is an increasing number I think of

1855
01:36:44,880 --> 01:36:49,479
Speaker 3: people doing things that look a lot like journal articles,

1856
01:36:49,560 --> 01:36:52,479
Speaker 3: are a lot like studies that appear with you that are

1857
01:36:52,520 --> 01:36:57,320
Speaker 3: not in trying to kind of leverage the credibility of

1858
01:36:57,360 --> 01:37:01,880
Speaker 3: that without actually doing reviewed science because of the stuff

1859
01:37:01,880 --> 01:37:05,360
Speaker 3: they're doing wouldn't line up with pay reviewed science. So

1860
01:37:05,400 --> 01:37:07,200
Speaker 3: it would be interesting to decrite there.

1861
01:37:07,080 --> 01:37:10,040
Speaker 4: Right, Yes, yes, it was a whole episode too.

1862
01:37:10,240 --> 01:37:11,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, next time.

1863
01:37:12,520 --> 01:37:14,240
Speaker 3: Well, thank you so much for your.

1864
01:37:14,120 --> 01:37:17,160
Speaker 4: Time, Jan Thanks very much, Davis. I appreciate it.

1865
01:37:27,160 --> 01:37:29,519
Speaker 3: Hi everyone, it's James here, and we have a wonderful

1866
01:37:29,520 --> 01:37:31,840
Speaker 3: episode for you today on heat and heat illness and

1867
01:37:32,080 --> 01:37:34,400
Speaker 3: how to protect yourself for your community and your animals

1868
01:37:34,760 --> 01:37:37,400
Speaker 3: when it is hot, which it is right now. But

1869
01:37:37,560 --> 01:37:39,720
Speaker 3: I just wanted to record this little pick up to

1870
01:37:39,760 --> 01:37:42,080
Speaker 3: tell you that this isn't medical advice, right produced every

1871
01:37:42,120 --> 01:37:44,759
Speaker 3: time we do these. I am not that kind of doctor,

1872
01:37:44,800 --> 01:37:47,840
Speaker 3: and I am not your doctor, and I just wanted

1873
01:37:47,840 --> 01:37:50,479
Speaker 3: to reinforce especially that yes, generally, of you're hot, it's

1874
01:37:50,479 --> 01:37:53,080
Speaker 3: a good idea to drink fluids and get out of

1875
01:37:53,120 --> 01:37:56,920
Speaker 3: the heat. Someone is losing consciousness or really really sick,

1876
01:37:56,960 --> 01:38:00,120
Speaker 3: you need to get better medical attention. Then you can

1877
01:38:00,600 --> 01:38:02,720
Speaker 3: learn how to give on a podcast. Right, So that's

1878
01:38:02,760 --> 01:38:05,519
Speaker 3: when you call someone whose job is to look after people,

1879
01:38:05,680 --> 01:38:08,360
Speaker 3: and I just wanted to reinforce it. Obviously, pouring water

1880
01:38:08,439 --> 01:38:10,160
Speaker 3: down the throat of someone who's lost consciouness is a

1881
01:38:10,240 --> 01:38:14,160
Speaker 3: very dumb idea, so please, if somebody is seriously unwell,

1882
01:38:14,920 --> 01:38:23,240
Speaker 3: seek medical care. Enjoy the episode. All right, Hi, welcome

1883
01:38:23,240 --> 01:38:24,800
Speaker 3: to It could happened here in a podcast where we

1884
01:38:24,880 --> 01:38:27,400
Speaker 3: someone knows that God, which is what I was doing

1885
01:38:27,439 --> 01:38:31,000
Speaker 3: just before the podcast began. Maybe we'll include that. And

1886
01:38:31,080 --> 01:38:33,799
Speaker 3: today we're here to talk about how God is smiting

1887
01:38:33,920 --> 01:38:37,760
Speaker 3: us with massive heat waves. And I'm joined today by

1888
01:38:38,400 --> 01:38:41,920
Speaker 3: Margaret Kiljoy and Garrison Davis say hello everyone.

1889
01:38:42,240 --> 01:38:45,320
Speaker 6: Hello, everyone one so.

1890
01:38:47,320 --> 01:38:47,519
Speaker 9: Called.

1891
01:38:51,360 --> 01:38:56,559
Speaker 3: Yeah, my sheeple have joined me. That's what I get

1892
01:38:56,560 --> 01:39:00,559
Speaker 3: for doing an episode about sheep. So as you will

1893
01:39:00,600 --> 01:39:03,160
Speaker 3: be away if you are in just about anywhere in

1894
01:39:03,160 --> 01:39:05,840
Speaker 3: the northern Hemisphere. It is very hot at the minute.

1895
01:39:05,880 --> 01:39:09,679
Speaker 3: It's very hot in cities in Europe. It's very hot

1896
01:39:09,720 --> 01:39:13,000
Speaker 3: in the United States. It's very hot in parts of

1897
01:39:13,600 --> 01:39:16,920
Speaker 3: North Africa and Middle East as well. It's the hottest

1898
01:39:17,080 --> 01:39:21,400
Speaker 3: June for how many years? Garrison July July that one.

1899
01:39:21,240 --> 01:39:24,160
Speaker 10: It is the hottest July, and it is one hundred

1900
01:39:24,200 --> 01:39:28,280
Speaker 10: and twenty thousand years according to the most recent estimates

1901
01:39:28,320 --> 01:39:31,519
Speaker 10: released like three days ago as a time of recording.

1902
01:39:31,680 --> 01:39:35,760
Speaker 3: So yeah, yeah, And we've had the hottest day in

1903
01:39:35,920 --> 01:39:38,160
Speaker 3: history like four times in the last month or something.

1904
01:39:39,080 --> 01:39:41,639
Speaker 10: In the in the first half of July, we had

1905
01:39:41,880 --> 01:39:43,680
Speaker 10: we had two days in a row where it was

1906
01:39:43,720 --> 01:39:46,120
Speaker 10: the two hottest days on record, and then we had

1907
01:39:46,640 --> 01:39:49,160
Speaker 10: two other days that were also the hottest days on record.

1908
01:39:50,840 --> 01:39:54,400
Speaker 10: It's it's pretty concerning. It's nothing that people haven't been

1909
01:39:54,439 --> 01:40:00,599
Speaker 10: warning about for many, many decades, but it's it's bad

1910
01:40:00,680 --> 01:40:03,719
Speaker 10: and it's very warm, yep.

1911
01:40:03,880 --> 01:40:07,360
Speaker 3: And it will continue probably to get warmer. So I

1912
01:40:07,400 --> 01:40:09,680
Speaker 3: think the way we want to approach this is, I'm

1913
01:40:09,680 --> 01:40:13,000
Speaker 3: going to start off with talking about stuff related to

1914
01:40:13,040 --> 01:40:16,000
Speaker 3: like exertional heat illness, because that's the thing that's most

1915
01:40:16,000 --> 01:40:19,080
Speaker 3: acutely concerning for people, right, especially if they work outside,

1916
01:40:19,760 --> 01:40:23,040
Speaker 3: if they recreate outside, if they're doing stuff outside where

1917
01:40:23,200 --> 01:40:26,880
Speaker 3: they can't get out of the heat. So I think

1918
01:40:26,920 --> 01:40:28,280
Speaker 3: to start off if I want to talk about things

1919
01:40:28,280 --> 01:40:31,040
Speaker 3: that might make you predisposed, and then I'm going to

1920
01:40:31,120 --> 01:40:33,040
Speaker 3: expend a little bit of how the body cools, and

1921
01:40:33,080 --> 01:40:36,200
Speaker 3: then some of these different stages of heat illnesses and

1922
01:40:36,479 --> 01:40:41,320
Speaker 3: how one might go about treating those or seeking further

1923
01:40:41,360 --> 01:40:44,000
Speaker 3: care if you need to. Right, So to start out with,

1924
01:40:44,120 --> 01:40:46,600
Speaker 3: there are some things that can make you predisposed to

1925
01:40:46,640 --> 01:40:50,519
Speaker 3: heat illness. Right, the biggest predisposition I've come acrossrom my

1926
01:40:50,560 --> 01:40:54,240
Speaker 3: reading is previously having heat illness. So I can certainly

1927
01:40:54,280 --> 01:40:57,679
Speaker 3: speak to this. Yeah, Like I think I got heat

1928
01:40:57,680 --> 01:41:04,200
Speaker 3: stroke for the first time. It was racing by in Spain,

1929
01:41:04,280 --> 01:41:07,200
Speaker 3: I think, But I then remember getting it again racing

1930
01:41:07,240 --> 01:41:10,920
Speaker 3: bikes in Vietnam, and just like being really bad, like

1931
01:41:10,960 --> 01:41:16,519
Speaker 3: having to have ivy fluids, like vomiting sort of even

1932
01:41:16,640 --> 01:41:19,679
Speaker 3: some like sort of not loss of consciouness, but definitely

1933
01:41:19,680 --> 01:41:23,040
Speaker 3: like confusion and erratic behavior and stuff.

1934
01:41:22,760 --> 01:41:26,679
Speaker 6: And the line between that and dying is pretty narrow, right.

1935
01:41:27,600 --> 01:41:29,759
Speaker 3: You can have like multiple organ failure and stuff certainly

1936
01:41:29,760 --> 01:41:31,519
Speaker 3: if yeah, if you don't respond to that or if

1937
01:41:31,520 --> 01:41:36,040
Speaker 3: you misdiagnose that, and that's definitely like I'm someone with diabetes, right,

1938
01:41:36,080 --> 01:41:39,559
Speaker 3: so people can sometimes if you're erratic or confused, people

1939
01:41:39,600 --> 01:41:42,280
Speaker 3: can assume your hypoglycemic and you need some sugar, but

1940
01:41:42,479 --> 01:41:45,200
Speaker 3: you don't in that situation, we need some fluids and

1941
01:41:45,640 --> 01:41:52,000
Speaker 3: electrolytes and to be cooled quickly. So yeah, that is yeah,

1942
01:41:52,040 --> 01:41:55,560
Speaker 3: you can die. People do die. Actually, the mortality is

1943
01:41:55,640 --> 01:41:58,080
Speaker 3: quite high, Like I too prepare for this, so I

1944
01:41:58,080 --> 01:42:01,320
Speaker 3: want to look at advanced Weldness Life support course I did,

1945
01:42:02,439 --> 01:42:06,200
Speaker 3: and people can look it up. AWLS University of Utah

1946
01:42:06,240 --> 01:42:08,320
Speaker 3: does one, and you can act as lots of the

1947
01:42:08,320 --> 01:42:12,080
Speaker 3: stuff online for free. But they would think the mortality

1948
01:42:12,560 --> 01:42:16,880
Speaker 3: is quite high from these like heat illnesses, and I

1949
01:42:16,880 --> 01:42:20,400
Speaker 3: think that's probably especially true in wilderness medicine, because it

1950
01:42:20,439 --> 01:42:22,240
Speaker 3: can be hard to cool someone down right if you

1951
01:42:22,280 --> 01:42:24,639
Speaker 3: don't have means of like if you don't have access

1952
01:42:24,640 --> 01:42:26,800
Speaker 3: to ice, you obviously not got air conditioning out there.

1953
01:42:27,720 --> 01:42:30,040
Speaker 3: If the best thing you probably have is running water,

1954
01:42:30,040 --> 01:42:33,240
Speaker 3: hopefully you have running water, right, And I think probably

1955
01:42:33,840 --> 01:42:37,599
Speaker 3: it's something that people might not have been concerned with

1956
01:42:37,880 --> 01:42:40,040
Speaker 3: unless they either lived in a very hot place or

1957
01:42:40,040 --> 01:42:42,479
Speaker 3: a very active people, or who traveled a lot before.

1958
01:42:43,320 --> 01:42:45,360
Speaker 3: So yeah, if you've had heat illness before, then you

1959
01:42:45,400 --> 01:42:48,559
Speaker 3: do need to be careful and you will probably know

1960
01:42:48,600 --> 01:42:50,519
Speaker 3: if you've had it before. But if we go through

1961
01:42:50,520 --> 01:42:52,280
Speaker 3: all the symptoms, you've had them all and never I

1962
01:42:52,320 --> 01:42:54,880
Speaker 3: guess got diagnosed, and lucky you, maybe you just found

1963
01:42:54,920 --> 01:42:58,560
Speaker 3: out you had heat illness. Other things that can predispose

1964
01:42:58,640 --> 01:43:02,280
Speaker 3: you can be a lack of acclimates. Again, like this

1965
01:43:02,360 --> 01:43:04,040
Speaker 3: is one that I think kind of stands to reason

1966
01:43:04,080 --> 01:43:06,800
Speaker 3: for most people. But like if you go from a

1967
01:43:06,800 --> 01:43:09,120
Speaker 3: cold place to hot place, or the place you are

1968
01:43:09,200 --> 01:43:12,040
Speaker 3: suddenly becomes hot having been cold, it's going to take

1969
01:43:12,080 --> 01:43:15,040
Speaker 3: you a few days a week to become a climatized

1970
01:43:15,080 --> 01:43:17,880
Speaker 3: to that heat, right, and your body will change. Things

1971
01:43:17,920 --> 01:43:19,519
Speaker 3: about your body will change, So we don't need to

1972
01:43:19,560 --> 01:43:22,200
Speaker 3: go into But it's also.

1973
01:43:24,160 --> 01:43:24,880
Speaker 2: I don't think so.

1974
01:43:24,960 --> 01:43:29,879
Speaker 3: I think so back when I was exercising more seriously,

1975
01:43:30,640 --> 01:43:34,720
Speaker 3: I would we would do heat acclimation by going in

1976
01:43:34,760 --> 01:43:39,400
Speaker 3: a sauna after a training ride, and the idea was like,

1977
01:43:39,439 --> 01:43:41,400
Speaker 3: you gave yourself this big bout of heat stress and

1978
01:43:41,439 --> 01:43:43,680
Speaker 3: then then you could go back and cool down. Right,

1979
01:43:43,880 --> 01:43:45,680
Speaker 3: So I think if you were in acy for most

1980
01:43:45,720 --> 01:43:49,240
Speaker 3: of the day, it was okay, I'm sort of guessing here,

1981
01:43:49,280 --> 01:43:51,640
Speaker 3: But if getting that bout of heat stress and then

1982
01:43:51,680 --> 01:43:54,400
Speaker 3: recovering and get just like any other training that you're doing,

1983
01:43:54,760 --> 01:43:55,160
Speaker 3: seems so.

1984
01:43:55,560 --> 01:43:57,800
Speaker 6: But if you go outside into the heat and then

1985
01:43:57,840 --> 01:44:01,720
Speaker 6: come back into the cool, you're still acclimating yourself.

1986
01:44:02,200 --> 01:44:06,200
Speaker 3: Yes, compared to just hanging out in you know, somewhere

1987
01:44:06,240 --> 01:44:08,400
Speaker 3: where it's cold all the time, and you do want it.

1988
01:44:08,439 --> 01:44:09,960
Speaker 3: You don't want to overdo it, right, You don't want

1989
01:44:09,960 --> 01:44:11,439
Speaker 3: to be like, oh, yeah, I'm going to acclimate. Time

1990
01:44:11,439 --> 01:44:14,320
Speaker 3: to go for a ten mile round, like, ease into it,

1991
01:44:14,640 --> 01:44:17,240
Speaker 3: make sure you're hydrating, make sure you're taking breaks in

1992
01:44:17,320 --> 01:44:20,840
Speaker 3: the heat. There's also a lack of conditioning, right, So

1993
01:44:21,160 --> 01:44:23,479
Speaker 3: that's why you see a lot of heat illness. Maybe

1994
01:44:23,479 --> 01:44:25,120
Speaker 3: that's the first time I got heat stroke. Was like

1995
01:44:25,800 --> 01:44:30,439
Speaker 3: pre season workouts for like especially like collegiate athletes and

1996
01:44:30,479 --> 01:44:33,280
Speaker 3: things or athletes who are more seasonal athletes, So people

1997
01:44:33,280 --> 01:44:35,120
Speaker 3: who have been parked on their backside for a few

1998
01:44:35,120 --> 01:44:37,519
Speaker 3: months or in class or whatever, and then they come

1999
01:44:37,560 --> 01:44:41,320
Speaker 3: and to start doing a rigorous training regime that can

2000
01:44:41,880 --> 01:44:44,479
Speaker 3: that can predispose you, right, so they can cause you

2001
01:44:44,520 --> 01:44:47,000
Speaker 3: to be more likely to get a heat illness. And

2002
01:44:47,040 --> 01:44:49,519
Speaker 3: then there are some medications, right, so you'd probably say

2003
01:44:49,560 --> 01:44:53,280
Speaker 3: on your medications, but things like beta block is actually hisstormyines, diuretics,

2004
01:44:53,800 --> 01:44:56,720
Speaker 3: you don't want to be drinking too much alcohol, and

2005
01:44:56,800 --> 01:45:01,280
Speaker 3: some conditions to write, heart disease, skin disease, existing dehydration

2006
01:45:02,280 --> 01:45:06,080
Speaker 3: fever obviously, right, your temperatures high to begin with, and

2007
01:45:06,360 --> 01:45:11,040
Speaker 3: diarrhea and vomiting which can cause that dehydration. Right, So

2008
01:45:11,280 --> 01:45:14,120
Speaker 3: looking if you have diarrhea and vomiting, it's not a

2009
01:45:14,120 --> 01:45:16,880
Speaker 3: good idea to also be going out and exposing yourself

2010
01:45:16,880 --> 01:45:20,559
Speaker 3: to a lot of heat. Right, So all of those

2011
01:45:20,600 --> 01:45:22,720
Speaker 3: things can make you more predisposed. But you can have

2012
01:45:22,800 --> 01:45:27,120
Speaker 3: none of those things and still get heat illness. I

2013
01:45:27,160 --> 01:45:29,160
Speaker 3: think the way to understand it is like the way

2014
01:45:29,600 --> 01:45:32,320
Speaker 3: we'll talk about the way our body cools, so it

2015
01:45:32,360 --> 01:45:36,759
Speaker 3: does that through evaporation. People will be familiar with sweating.

2016
01:45:36,800 --> 01:45:41,880
Speaker 3: Most people sweat and so if you the sweating allows

2017
01:45:41,920 --> 01:45:44,000
Speaker 3: your body to cool, right, The evaporation of the sweat

2018
01:45:44,160 --> 01:45:47,160
Speaker 3: allows your body to cool. So people who don't sweat,

2019
01:45:47,680 --> 01:45:49,599
Speaker 3: or people who have injuries which means they don't sweat

2020
01:45:49,680 --> 01:45:52,240
Speaker 3: some of their body again, are at a higher risk

2021
01:45:52,680 --> 01:45:53,519
Speaker 3: for heat illness.

2022
01:45:53,600 --> 01:45:53,760
Speaker 5: Right.

2023
01:45:54,520 --> 01:46:00,040
Speaker 6: More less assurtizes in turn like wet bulb temperature and

2024
01:46:00,320 --> 01:46:02,320
Speaker 6: the fact that if you're in a more humid place,

2025
01:46:02,880 --> 01:46:07,600
Speaker 6: you have to consider the heat very differently, right, And

2026
01:46:07,680 --> 01:46:10,960
Speaker 6: so yeah, yeah, the East coast versus the Southwest, for example,

2027
01:46:11,040 --> 01:46:15,000
Speaker 6: of the United States, will have very different options available

2028
01:46:15,000 --> 01:46:17,960
Speaker 6: to them, both inside and outside about how to cool down.

2029
01:46:18,800 --> 01:46:23,360
Speaker 6: Based on knowing the humidity outside is going to be

2030
01:46:23,400 --> 01:46:25,960
Speaker 6: as important for people as knowing the actual temperature.

2031
01:46:27,120 --> 01:46:30,080
Speaker 3: Yes, definitely, And most of the time now, if you're

2032
01:46:30,160 --> 01:46:32,160
Speaker 3: using a phone app, whichink most people are doing, to

2033
01:46:32,240 --> 01:46:35,000
Speaker 3: check the way that you can find that it will

2034
01:46:35,040 --> 01:46:37,240
Speaker 3: give you the humidity and give you a wet bowl

2035
01:46:37,439 --> 01:46:41,360
Speaker 3: or like a real feel temperature. But certainly, like I

2036
01:46:41,560 --> 01:46:44,680
Speaker 3: was recently on a trip to the Marshall Islands and

2037
01:46:44,720 --> 01:46:46,439
Speaker 3: I was running and like eighty five and I'll run

2038
01:46:46,560 --> 01:46:49,360
Speaker 3: eighty five all the time, and I was dying because

2039
01:46:49,400 --> 01:46:54,559
Speaker 3: the humidity was so high. So yeah, whether ho humidity

2040
01:46:54,600 --> 01:46:55,880
Speaker 3: is high, you're not going to be able to cool

2041
01:46:55,880 --> 01:46:58,240
Speaker 3: as much, right, so you need to be more careful

2042
01:46:59,439 --> 01:47:03,120
Speaker 3: radiation that that's when your body is shedding heat through,

2043
01:47:03,160 --> 01:47:07,040
Speaker 3: like I guess electromagnetic energy. That makes up most of

2044
01:47:07,080 --> 01:47:10,600
Speaker 3: your cooling when the ambrrient temperatures are less than body temperature.

2045
01:47:10,680 --> 01:47:14,160
Speaker 3: So once the ambient temperature is above your body temperature,

2046
01:47:14,280 --> 01:47:19,760
Speaker 3: I think in fahrenheit's like ninety six point six, your

2047
01:47:19,760 --> 01:47:21,800
Speaker 3: body's going to be relying on other methods, right, that

2048
01:47:21,840 --> 01:47:25,559
Speaker 3: one's not going to work. Conduction. Conduction doesn't really make

2049
01:47:25,640 --> 01:47:28,080
Speaker 3: up much of It's not really that useful way to cool.

2050
01:47:29,240 --> 01:47:31,639
Speaker 3: It doesn't really make much difference. But like people will

2051
01:47:31,680 --> 01:47:34,080
Speaker 3: be familiar with conduction if you've ever slept without a

2052
01:47:34,120 --> 01:47:37,160
Speaker 3: sleeping pad, if you've been camping, you'll realize how much

2053
01:47:37,160 --> 01:47:40,439
Speaker 3: colder you get on cold ground. And then the last

2054
01:47:40,439 --> 01:47:42,720
Speaker 3: one is convection, right, So that's heat transfer between the

2055
01:47:42,720 --> 01:47:45,679
Speaker 3: body and then moving gas or liquid. That's why wind

2056
01:47:45,720 --> 01:47:49,960
Speaker 3: chills the thing, okay, because that airs whipping past you

2057
01:47:50,040 --> 01:47:53,160
Speaker 3: rate cooling you down. And that's also the convection is

2058
01:47:53,240 --> 01:47:55,360
Speaker 3: one that we can use to cool people down if

2059
01:47:55,360 --> 01:47:59,160
Speaker 3: they overheat, right, like jump in the create so yes,

2060
01:47:59,360 --> 01:48:01,280
Speaker 3: or if we don't have a creek, we can get

2061
01:48:01,280 --> 01:48:04,800
Speaker 3: you wet and then fan you. Maybe we can if

2062
01:48:05,000 --> 01:48:07,679
Speaker 3: we're outside and we have those big thermorest sleeping pads,

2063
01:48:08,240 --> 01:48:11,160
Speaker 3: we can get some air moving that way and help

2064
01:48:11,200 --> 01:48:14,360
Speaker 3: you cool down. If we know the ways the body cools,

2065
01:48:14,400 --> 01:48:16,640
Speaker 3: then we can maybe use this right. And we we

2066
01:48:16,720 --> 01:48:19,679
Speaker 3: have to understand, like you said, the relative humidity read.

2067
01:48:20,120 --> 01:48:23,040
Speaker 3: So when our body gets hot, especially when it starts

2068
01:48:23,040 --> 01:48:26,200
Speaker 3: to overheat, it will shd some blood to the skin

2069
01:48:26,280 --> 01:48:32,040
Speaker 3: right vaseodilation. It will also increase cardiac output and increase

2070
01:48:32,120 --> 01:48:34,080
Speaker 3: catecula means which activate a sweat glands.

2071
01:48:35,600 --> 01:48:36,760
Speaker 4: So the.

2072
01:48:38,439 --> 01:48:41,120
Speaker 3: Hypothalamus will also regulate heat production in the body.

2073
01:48:41,320 --> 01:48:43,600
Speaker 6: And there's been two so I don't understand two of

2074
01:48:43,640 --> 01:48:46,640
Speaker 6: the words you've recently used. But okay, which way the

2075
01:48:46,680 --> 01:48:51,639
Speaker 6: words which are the words about the the cacophony and

2076
01:48:51,680 --> 01:48:56,760
Speaker 6: the hypert means. Okay, it's sufficient to say that the

2077
01:48:56,800 --> 01:48:59,920
Speaker 6: body you start to sweat more, and your body begins

2078
01:49:00,040 --> 01:49:02,360
Speaker 6: a regular our heart it makes itself. Okay, I got

2079
01:49:02,400 --> 01:49:04,960
Speaker 6: that one kind of from contact. But what's this next one?

2080
01:49:05,920 --> 01:49:09,360
Speaker 3: I gues see hypothalamus is like your your body's kind

2081
01:49:09,360 --> 01:49:13,720
Speaker 3: of internal regulator, and what it's doing is it's in

2082
01:49:13,760 --> 01:49:18,519
Speaker 3: this case, it's regulating the heat production of your body. Dude,

2083
01:49:18,560 --> 01:49:24,080
Speaker 3: it's trying to It's not making you holler from the inside.

2084
01:49:24,080 --> 01:49:29,639
Speaker 3: I guess that's probably a terrible explanation. Okay, So let's

2085
01:49:29,680 --> 01:49:33,599
Speaker 3: go through the different stages of heat illness. We can

2086
01:49:33,600 --> 01:49:35,320
Speaker 3: start off with things so that people will be I

2087
01:49:35,320 --> 01:49:37,519
Speaker 3: think we can probably skip like sunburn. Many of us

2088
01:49:37,560 --> 01:49:39,960
Speaker 3: will be familiar with someburn and it will have been sunburned.

2089
01:49:40,000 --> 01:49:42,639
Speaker 3: Many of us will understand hopefully we're wearing our suncream

2090
01:49:42,680 --> 01:49:47,240
Speaker 3: when we go outside, right or just wearing our suncream

2091
01:49:46,840 --> 01:49:50,120
Speaker 3: and covering ourselves up from the sun, not just like

2092
01:49:50,920 --> 01:49:53,240
Speaker 3: running around with our skin exposed to the sun when

2093
01:49:53,240 --> 01:49:56,320
Speaker 3: it's one hundred and ten or what have you. So

2094
01:49:56,800 --> 01:50:00,439
Speaker 3: step up from there would be heat cramps, and cramps

2095
01:50:00,439 --> 01:50:02,479
Speaker 3: can come from various things, right, Like, I think not

2096
01:50:02,600 --> 01:50:06,719
Speaker 3: all cramps are caused by sodium depletion or potassium depletion.

2097
01:50:06,840 --> 01:50:10,439
Speaker 3: People sometimes think that it's a potassium thing. Some of

2098
01:50:10,479 --> 01:50:14,040
Speaker 3: them can just be caused wherever exertion. It can be

2099
01:50:14,080 --> 01:50:16,960
Speaker 3: your body's way of being, like, hey, stop. So, like,

2100
01:50:17,240 --> 01:50:21,120
Speaker 3: if you know it's fifty degrees out and you're trying

2101
01:50:21,120 --> 01:50:23,200
Speaker 3: to run your fastest tank ca and you have cramps,

2102
01:50:23,920 --> 01:50:27,519
Speaker 3: that's not a heat thing, that's just your body being like, okay,

2103
01:50:27,600 --> 01:50:28,439
Speaker 3: you're not ready for this.

2104
01:50:28,680 --> 01:50:32,400
Speaker 6: Yeah, that's kind of my experience with running. Yeah.

2105
01:50:32,720 --> 01:50:36,519
Speaker 3: Yeah, your body's actively rejected it. Yeah, it's because it knows.

2106
01:50:36,720 --> 01:50:38,080
Speaker 6: I tried to join the track when I was in

2107
01:50:38,160 --> 01:50:41,400
Speaker 6: ninth grade to impress the girl. Neither part of it worked.

2108
01:50:42,760 --> 01:50:45,559
Speaker 6: I'm sorry to hear. That's fine, but it's for the best. Okay,

2109
01:50:45,600 --> 01:50:47,360
Speaker 6: I'm glad that you can share that with the audience.

2110
01:50:47,920 --> 01:50:51,559
Speaker 6: Oh that was just wait, oh no, someone's listening. Yeah anyway, Yeah.

2111
01:50:51,600 --> 01:50:54,720
Speaker 3: Unfortunately, So heat cramps, right, they're mostly going to be

2112
01:50:54,760 --> 01:50:57,760
Speaker 3: in your calves, and people will be familiar with the

2113
01:50:57,800 --> 01:51:01,160
Speaker 3: sensation of a cramp. I'm sure we're experiencing heat cramps.

2114
01:51:01,760 --> 01:51:05,080
Speaker 3: We want to obviously cool off, stop doing the thing.

2115
01:51:05,680 --> 01:51:07,880
Speaker 3: So if we're running, it's time to start running. If

2116
01:51:07,880 --> 01:51:11,920
Speaker 3: we're cycling, time stuff. Cycling, it's unlikely you're getting the

2117
01:51:11,920 --> 01:51:14,240
Speaker 3: where you get you get them swimming that's other kinds

2118
01:51:14,240 --> 01:51:17,960
Speaker 3: of cramps. But you know, if we're exercising it's good

2119
01:51:18,000 --> 01:51:20,680
Speaker 3: to stop, it's good to cool down, it's good to rehydrate.

2120
01:51:21,120 --> 01:51:23,599
Speaker 3: So that's where you're going to start with your ooral

2121
01:51:23,640 --> 01:51:27,040
Speaker 3: salt solution. And generally, from what I've seen, it's a

2122
01:51:27,040 --> 01:51:30,160
Speaker 3: sodium thing, so that that's just like a quarter to

2123
01:51:30,160 --> 01:51:32,360
Speaker 3: a half a teaspoon of table salt and a liter

2124
01:51:32,439 --> 01:51:32,840
Speaker 3: of water.

2125
01:51:33,760 --> 01:51:37,759
Speaker 6: This is the electrolyte thing that people talk about. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

2126
01:51:37,840 --> 01:51:42,600
Speaker 3: And as we get further into like these heat illnesses,

2127
01:51:43,520 --> 01:51:45,880
Speaker 3: one of the things that you want to be careful of.

2128
01:51:45,960 --> 01:51:48,760
Speaker 3: You're trying to rehydrate some when it's overloading a carbohydrate,

2129
01:51:48,800 --> 01:51:51,280
Speaker 3: so you want a less than six percent carbohydrate solution.

2130
01:51:53,560 --> 01:51:56,280
Speaker 3: That can mean just not pounding gatorade, which I think

2131
01:51:56,320 --> 01:51:58,720
Speaker 3: can be like the sort of standard response for some

2132
01:51:58,800 --> 01:52:02,280
Speaker 3: people because it just it doesn't empty quite as quickly

2133
01:52:02,360 --> 01:52:06,000
Speaker 3: at something which has a lower carbohydrate content.

2134
01:52:06,120 --> 01:52:10,679
Speaker 6: Right, Okay, but people who are drinking drinking straight water

2135
01:52:10,760 --> 01:52:14,000
Speaker 6: doesn't rehydrate you as effectively as drinking electrolytes. Right, Like,

2136
01:52:14,200 --> 01:52:16,240
Speaker 6: if it's really hot out, you pretty much need to

2137
01:52:16,280 --> 01:52:19,160
Speaker 6: be hydrating with electrolytes. This is unless you're like eating

2138
01:52:19,160 --> 01:52:21,519
Speaker 6: a salty snack or something. This is what I've heard

2139
01:52:21,600 --> 01:52:22,080
Speaker 6: from people.

2140
01:52:23,320 --> 01:52:27,479
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a thing called hypernatremia, which is when the

2141
01:52:27,520 --> 01:52:30,840
Speaker 3: opposite that's like low sodium, right, then that's that can

2142
01:52:30,920 --> 01:52:35,639
Speaker 3: happen sometimes from just drinking straight water without any sodium.

2143
01:52:35,920 --> 01:52:40,240
Speaker 3: It happens rarely, but it definitely can happen. It can

2144
01:52:40,280 --> 01:52:42,800
Speaker 3: happen in like backcountry travel where people don't think they're

2145
01:52:42,840 --> 01:52:45,000
Speaker 3: exerting themselves, they're just kind of walking and drinking a

2146
01:52:45,040 --> 01:52:47,280
Speaker 3: lot of water. It can happen in marathons, like it

2147
01:52:47,280 --> 01:52:50,200
Speaker 3: happens sometimes in marathons people are just taking the water

2148
01:52:50,240 --> 01:52:53,240
Speaker 3: from the age station to just drinking the water. Yeah,

2149
01:52:53,280 --> 01:52:57,240
Speaker 3: it's never like it's you know, when it's hot, if

2150
01:52:57,240 --> 01:52:59,960
Speaker 3: you're having you know, when I was bi racing, a

2151
01:53:00,120 --> 01:53:01,600
Speaker 3: to do one drink of water and one drink of

2152
01:53:01,640 --> 01:53:05,200
Speaker 3: electrolyte even in the heat, pretty much like one bottle.

2153
01:53:05,240 --> 01:53:07,040
Speaker 3: There are two bottles on a bicycle thing. I think

2154
01:53:07,080 --> 01:53:08,680
Speaker 3: that's a fine thing to do if you're in the

2155
01:53:08,720 --> 01:53:12,400
Speaker 3: heat and in you're exercising. You don't need to be

2156
01:53:12,439 --> 01:53:14,880
Speaker 3: smashing gatorade all the time because that's a lot of

2157
01:53:14,920 --> 01:53:17,639
Speaker 3: sugar and it might that will also not empty from

2158
01:53:17,640 --> 01:53:21,639
Speaker 3: your stomach. So, you know, a modern sports drink should

2159
01:53:21,680 --> 01:53:24,759
Speaker 3: have the right solution. You know, there are lots of brands.

2160
01:53:24,760 --> 01:53:28,120
Speaker 3: I'm not going to recommend one, but there are lots

2161
01:53:28,120 --> 01:53:29,760
Speaker 3: of different brands which should have a decent sort of

2162
01:53:29,800 --> 01:53:33,200
Speaker 3: four or five percent carbo hydrate solution, and I think

2163
01:53:33,280 --> 01:53:36,080
Speaker 3: one that tastes nice to you. And then we move

2164
01:53:36,160 --> 01:53:39,120
Speaker 3: from there into a couple of different things, heat exhaustion

2165
01:53:39,360 --> 01:53:44,240
Speaker 3: and heat syncope. Heat syncope is when you'll see people

2166
01:53:44,840 --> 01:53:49,240
Speaker 3: like fall over, and it happens often like the only

2167
01:53:49,240 --> 01:53:51,360
Speaker 3: time I've seen it happen is people stopping after like

2168
01:53:51,400 --> 01:53:55,559
Speaker 3: a long run, like specifically like when they push themselves

2169
01:53:55,560 --> 01:53:59,240
Speaker 3: really hard, right, And it can actually be it can

2170
01:53:59,280 --> 01:54:04,960
Speaker 3: be people who are not particularly dehydrated or hypothermic, but

2171
01:54:05,280 --> 01:54:06,680
Speaker 3: a sort of a long run and heat you're not

2172
01:54:06,720 --> 01:54:10,679
Speaker 3: acclimated to. It can blood can pull in the legs,

2173
01:54:11,160 --> 01:54:14,439
Speaker 3: and it's it's often people who are elderly are not

2174
01:54:14,520 --> 01:54:17,720
Speaker 3: very well acclimated, and it's normally when they're standing at

2175
01:54:17,760 --> 01:54:24,400
Speaker 3: stationary and that's something that you can treat by elevating

2176
01:54:24,400 --> 01:54:27,920
Speaker 3: the feet where's the personal lies down, and then just

2177
01:54:27,960 --> 01:54:30,840
Speaker 3: getting them out of direct sunlight and helping them rehydrate, right,

2178
01:54:30,920 --> 01:54:34,240
Speaker 3: So helping them cool rehydrate. You're going to see that

2179
01:54:34,560 --> 01:54:36,840
Speaker 3: in nearly all of these cases, cooling someone off it's

2180
01:54:37,080 --> 01:54:39,600
Speaker 3: the most important thing to do. So next time we

2181
01:54:39,600 --> 01:54:43,160
Speaker 3: talk about heat exhaustion again, like you'll know something is

2182
01:54:43,200 --> 01:54:46,360
Speaker 3: wrong in these situations, right, Like if someone's just just

2183
01:54:46,440 --> 01:54:48,440
Speaker 3: like falling over, you will know something is wrong. If

2184
01:54:48,440 --> 01:54:52,720
Speaker 3: someone's yeah, then in case he's like you'll know like

2185
01:54:52,800 --> 01:54:56,440
Speaker 3: having had heat exhaustion heat stroke, like you yourself will

2186
01:54:56,480 --> 01:54:59,800
Speaker 3: also know. There are certain like like ecstasy is a

2187
01:54:59,800 --> 01:55:02,760
Speaker 3: big one, right when people people quite often get heat

2188
01:55:02,760 --> 01:55:06,480
Speaker 3: illness when they're like at raves on ecstasy. And that's

2189
01:55:06,520 --> 01:55:10,480
Speaker 3: just because obviously like altered state of mind plus dancing,

2190
01:55:10,920 --> 01:55:14,360
Speaker 3: uh plus plus this drug, which is you know, your

2191
01:55:14,360 --> 01:55:17,040
Speaker 3: body is not not making its usual responses, I guess,

2192
01:55:18,240 --> 01:55:21,640
Speaker 3: and that can be so like, you know, if it's

2193
01:55:21,640 --> 01:55:23,400
Speaker 3: one hundred and ten out, maybe that's not the time

2194
01:55:23,560 --> 01:55:26,200
Speaker 3: to be doing M B M A and raving.

2195
01:55:26,440 --> 01:55:32,240
Speaker 10: Cop cop cop behavior. James, Yeah, yeah, I can't stand

2196
01:55:32,280 --> 01:55:34,680
Speaker 10: by and here And just as you spread this M

2197
01:55:34,760 --> 01:55:38,240
Speaker 10: D M A slander, people should People should absolutely be

2198
01:55:39,160 --> 01:55:42,400
Speaker 10: knowledgeable about what causes their atonin syndrome and be careful

2199
01:55:42,400 --> 01:55:45,720
Speaker 10: about mixing other substances but I cannot have you just

2200
01:55:45,840 --> 01:55:46,800
Speaker 10: disparage the.

2201
01:55:46,840 --> 01:55:48,720
Speaker 2: Good name of MDMA like this.

2202
01:55:49,200 --> 01:55:52,000
Speaker 6: Oh I will, I will take it one step further

2203
01:55:52,200 --> 01:55:55,600
Speaker 6: and tell you that, at least with my research, both

2204
01:55:55,640 --> 01:55:58,520
Speaker 6: caffeine and alcohol make it far more likely for you

2205
01:55:58,600 --> 01:56:03,280
Speaker 6: to suffer dehydration and related heat dehydration.

2206
01:56:03,560 --> 01:56:05,440
Speaker 10: Yes, this is this is just that, this is an

2207
01:56:05,440 --> 01:56:08,760
Speaker 10: actual problem that people should mix like with m d

2208
01:56:08,920 --> 01:56:12,400
Speaker 10: m A. This is something to look up because because

2209
01:56:12,400 --> 01:56:14,680
Speaker 10: of the way it affects your serotonin levels, it can

2210
01:56:14,800 --> 01:56:17,760
Speaker 10: cause you to overheat if you take too much or

2211
01:56:17,800 --> 01:56:20,720
Speaker 10: come out with other things, or if you're in a hot, sweaty,

2212
01:56:20,800 --> 01:56:23,120
Speaker 10: crowded room you're dancing too much without taking breaks. This

2213
01:56:23,440 --> 01:56:24,400
Speaker 10: is a thing to consider.

2214
01:56:26,080 --> 01:56:31,640
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, I had. There was a person it was

2215
01:56:31,800 --> 01:56:33,880
Speaker 3: I think it was reference in the in the course

2216
01:56:33,920 --> 01:56:35,720
Speaker 3: they did where they would talk about using a drone

2217
01:56:36,040 --> 01:56:40,640
Speaker 3: rave to identify people who are hypothermic and like that,

2218
01:56:41,400 --> 01:56:43,080
Speaker 3: like you what you want to step away from the

2219
01:56:43,160 --> 01:56:46,360
Speaker 3: dance floor, like to identify beople who at risk, which

2220
01:56:46,400 --> 01:56:50,480
Speaker 3: is an interesting idea. That's cool, I think. Yeah, So

2221
01:56:50,760 --> 01:56:53,240
Speaker 3: just you know something to consider as you go forward

2222
01:56:53,280 --> 01:56:58,600
Speaker 3: with yoursemble plants. So other signs, right, tiredness, weakness, uziness, headache, fainting,

2223
01:56:59,120 --> 01:57:02,920
Speaker 3: knows you're vomiting, muscle cramps, nausea and vomiting. It's ralph.

2224
01:57:02,960 --> 01:57:06,440
Speaker 3: I remember that the worst heat on this I've ever

2225
01:57:06,480 --> 01:57:10,960
Speaker 3: had was in Vietnam doing a bike race. One of

2226
01:57:10,960 --> 01:57:12,720
Speaker 3: the rules in a bike races that you can't take

2227
01:57:14,280 --> 01:57:17,160
Speaker 3: supplies from your support car in the last fifty kilometers,

2228
01:57:18,000 --> 01:57:20,680
Speaker 3: and it was just so hot, and I remember being like,

2229
01:57:20,960 --> 01:57:23,600
Speaker 3: I'm baking inside my skull. I'm baking it inside my skull,

2230
01:57:23,800 --> 01:57:26,640
Speaker 3: like and I'd been previously in like a little group

2231
01:57:26,680 --> 01:57:28,120
Speaker 3: in front of the main group, so I also hadn't

2232
01:57:28,160 --> 01:57:30,520
Speaker 3: been able to access water from my car then and

2233
01:57:30,600 --> 01:57:33,080
Speaker 3: then drop, we got caught by the main group, is

2234
01:57:33,120 --> 01:57:35,800
Speaker 3: what happened. And I remember being like, okay, good, Now

2235
01:57:35,840 --> 01:57:37,640
Speaker 3: I can get my eye socks and put them down

2236
01:57:37,720 --> 01:57:40,200
Speaker 3: my back and I can get my cold water. And

2237
01:57:40,240 --> 01:57:42,520
Speaker 3: then I went back and the guy was like, no, no, no,

2238
01:57:43,480 --> 01:57:46,680
Speaker 3: it's like forty nine kilometers and I was like, oh,

2239
01:57:46,800 --> 01:57:48,880
Speaker 3: this is bad, this is really fucking bad. And it

2240
01:57:49,040 --> 01:57:49,640
Speaker 3: was really bad.

2241
01:57:50,760 --> 01:57:51,040
Speaker 5: Did you.

2242
01:57:53,560 --> 01:57:58,800
Speaker 3: Be I'm sure? Yeah I did. I finished the race. Congrats, Yeah, No,

2243
01:57:59,280 --> 01:58:02,880
Speaker 3: terrible decision at the picture somewhere. My teammates put me

2244
01:58:02,880 --> 01:58:04,600
Speaker 3: in a shower with like my legs above my head

2245
01:58:04,640 --> 01:58:07,000
Speaker 3: it which was just like waterboarding me with cold water,

2246
01:58:07,240 --> 01:58:11,120
Speaker 3: and I was given ivy fluid and they were all like, oh,

2247
01:58:11,120 --> 01:58:16,120
Speaker 3: this is bad. He's not in a good way. Yeah,

2248
01:58:16,240 --> 01:58:18,760
Speaker 3: yeah that you know, sport is good for you. Keep

2249
01:58:18,840 --> 01:58:22,560
Speaker 3: sporting out there, kids. Everyone was very concerned for me.

2250
01:58:23,600 --> 01:58:25,600
Speaker 6: My All the stuff I came up with was like

2251
01:58:25,920 --> 01:58:32,640
Speaker 6: stay inside, don't exert yourself, like avoid caffeine and alcohol. Yeah,

2252
01:58:32,760 --> 01:58:34,800
Speaker 6: if you want to push yourself past your limits.

2253
01:58:36,240 --> 01:58:39,839
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, don't know it's bad. But we did everything

2254
01:58:39,880 --> 01:58:42,360
Speaker 3: wrong right, Like it was in December the race, because

2255
01:58:44,000 --> 01:58:46,760
Speaker 3: the Asian Tour doesn't take a break at like the

2256
01:58:46,880 --> 01:58:49,080
Speaker 3: December and a few time it takes a break from Ramadan.

2257
01:58:49,240 --> 01:58:52,760
Speaker 3: So obviously coming from the United States, we were relatively

2258
01:58:52,880 --> 01:58:55,160
Speaker 3: less fit than we would have been. We were not acclimated.

2259
01:58:55,440 --> 01:58:58,280
Speaker 3: I had a fat beard, which did not help, and

2260
01:58:58,320 --> 01:59:00,520
Speaker 3: like my hair was longer than it is now, My

2261
01:59:00,560 --> 01:59:05,560
Speaker 3: body was not losing heat. Everything was I doing this

2262
01:59:05,560 --> 01:59:10,120
Speaker 3: this race? Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, going out there like

2263
01:59:10,320 --> 01:59:14,080
Speaker 3: full Look if there's nothing that what is more white

2264
01:59:14,080 --> 01:59:15,600
Speaker 3: man on the left and you know, got white dude

2265
01:59:15,640 --> 01:59:18,240
Speaker 3: with a beard. It's like all of them, right, crook

2266
01:59:18,280 --> 01:59:22,920
Speaker 3: and bacuona marks, and you have to try it. Yeah,

2267
01:59:22,960 --> 01:59:25,240
Speaker 3: don't do that. Don't do that to yourself. We talked

2268
01:59:25,280 --> 01:59:27,320
Speaker 3: about heats and cope and the last one is heat stroke.

2269
01:59:27,400 --> 01:59:31,760
Speaker 3: So what differentiates heat stroke from heat exhaustion is that

2270
01:59:31,840 --> 01:59:34,800
Speaker 3: higher body temperature above forty degrees celsius, which is one

2271
01:59:34,880 --> 01:59:37,680
Speaker 3: hundred and three hundred and four fahrenheit. If you're seeing

2272
01:59:37,680 --> 01:59:39,640
Speaker 3: one hundred and three, it's time to pick up the

2273
01:59:39,640 --> 01:59:42,400
Speaker 3: telephone and call nine on one if you can, if

2274
01:59:42,400 --> 01:59:43,720
Speaker 3: you're in an area where you can do that. But

2275
01:59:43,800 --> 01:59:45,360
Speaker 3: it doesn't matter. It's one hundred and three one hundred

2276
01:59:45,360 --> 01:59:47,360
Speaker 3: and four. I guess it's that you're very hot. At

2277
01:59:47,360 --> 01:59:52,360
Speaker 3: that point, you're going to have hot, red skin, a

2278
01:59:52,360 --> 01:59:56,280
Speaker 3: fast strong pulse, headache, dizziness, naughty of confusion. People can

2279
01:59:56,320 --> 02:00:03,480
Speaker 3: also lose consciousness. So this is very serious, right, And

2280
02:00:03,520 --> 02:00:06,920
Speaker 3: the line between this and really serious lasting complications is

2281
02:00:06,960 --> 02:00:10,200
Speaker 3: quite quite small, So you do need to be very

2282
02:00:11,000 --> 02:00:13,520
Speaker 3: extremely concerned. I will say that, like when you're taking

2283
02:00:13,560 --> 02:00:19,480
Speaker 3: someone's temperature, taking it at the extremities is not necessarily

2284
02:00:19,520 --> 02:00:23,400
Speaker 3: going to give you the best idea of what their

2285
02:00:23,400 --> 02:00:27,280
Speaker 3: core body temperature is, right, and so that's sort of

2286
02:00:27,320 --> 02:00:29,520
Speaker 3: reason that like if if they're hot, if like, if

2287
02:00:29,560 --> 02:00:31,560
Speaker 3: it's hot, they're hot on the outside, right, like an

2288
02:00:31,600 --> 02:00:34,800
Speaker 3: ear or what have you. And then if you if

2289
02:00:34,800 --> 02:00:37,040
Speaker 3: you've then tried to cool the person and you're seeing

2290
02:00:37,560 --> 02:00:39,160
Speaker 3: like a lower body temperature in their hand or if

2291
02:00:39,160 --> 02:00:41,520
Speaker 3: you're yeah, if their hands been in ice, you know,

2292
02:00:41,840 --> 02:00:44,520
Speaker 3: in ice bath, then you might see a cooler temperature there.

2293
02:00:44,600 --> 02:00:47,320
Speaker 3: And that's that there are like rectal probes are used

2294
02:00:47,320 --> 02:00:50,000
Speaker 3: for this not something to be doing in a sort

2295
02:00:50,000 --> 02:00:53,400
Speaker 3: of non consensual manner. They're not really something to be

2296
02:00:53,440 --> 02:00:57,360
Speaker 3: doing unless you're like a medical professional. But if you're,

2297
02:00:58,160 --> 02:01:00,400
Speaker 3: if so, just don't don't be relying again. So you know,

2298
02:01:00,400 --> 02:01:02,040
Speaker 3: people have those little heat guns that they like to

2299
02:01:02,120 --> 02:01:05,800
Speaker 3: use and stuff might not be the most reliable source

2300
02:01:05,800 --> 02:01:06,880
Speaker 3: of information.

2301
02:01:06,560 --> 02:01:08,480
Speaker 6: Although it might be useful for the initial.

2302
02:01:10,680 --> 02:01:14,720
Speaker 3: Diagnosis, right, Yeah, even then, like if even if you

2303
02:01:14,720 --> 02:01:16,960
Speaker 3: can just do an ooral thermometer as opposed to like

2304
02:01:17,000 --> 02:01:20,120
Speaker 3: the temperature if your forehead is ox like, if it's

2305
02:01:20,120 --> 02:01:22,440
Speaker 3: one hundred and ten, then the temperature of your forehead

2306
02:01:22,680 --> 02:01:23,920
Speaker 3: is going to be hot, right.

2307
02:01:24,000 --> 02:01:26,280
Speaker 6: I see what you're saying. Yeah, yeah, totally okay.

2308
02:01:26,720 --> 02:01:30,280
Speaker 3: Versus you know you're trying to get as inside as possible.

2309
02:01:30,320 --> 02:01:34,840
Speaker 3: I guess yeah. I remember people doing cooling experiments where

2310
02:01:34,840 --> 02:01:36,440
Speaker 3: you have to take a pill when it measured your

2311
02:01:36,480 --> 02:01:43,440
Speaker 3: internal temperature and well bluetoothed out or something. Yeah, so

2312
02:01:44,040 --> 02:01:46,520
Speaker 3: it's fun times. I think that's cool.

2313
02:01:46,880 --> 02:01:51,080
Speaker 6: I want one rescuing it later sounds like not fun.

2314
02:01:52,000 --> 02:01:54,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it does make an exit for the body.

2315
02:01:55,520 --> 02:01:58,040
Speaker 3: So with this again, right, you want to cool the

2316
02:01:58,080 --> 02:02:01,360
Speaker 3: person down, and the way we can do that it's

2317
02:02:01,400 --> 02:02:04,560
Speaker 3: like ice packs right in the groin, neck and scalp.

2318
02:02:05,080 --> 02:02:08,040
Speaker 3: So I used to do like just tights, like if

2319
02:02:08,040 --> 02:02:11,160
Speaker 3: you're wearing tights, put ice in those and put those

2320
02:02:11,200 --> 02:02:13,800
Speaker 3: down my back of my cycling jersey or no cycling.

2321
02:02:14,200 --> 02:02:15,920
Speaker 3: You can put them in the groins obviously the person

2322
02:02:16,120 --> 02:02:17,880
Speaker 3: has become like a heat casualty. You can put them

2323
02:02:17,880 --> 02:02:24,240
Speaker 3: in the groin, armpits, the neck, and you can also

2324
02:02:24,520 --> 02:02:27,040
Speaker 3: if you don't have access to AC obviously you've got

2325
02:02:27,040 --> 02:02:28,800
Speaker 3: a c you can put the person in an air

2326
02:02:28,840 --> 02:02:31,560
Speaker 3: conditioned environment to help them cool down. You can put

2327
02:02:31,600 --> 02:02:34,600
Speaker 3: them in an ice bath. You'll see that like at

2328
02:02:34,640 --> 02:02:38,840
Speaker 3: hot weather events. I'm trying to think there are a

2329
02:02:38,840 --> 02:02:40,840
Speaker 3: lot of other conditions that you'll see a hot weather events.

2330
02:02:40,880 --> 02:02:43,640
Speaker 3: We don't really have time to talk about. Things like

2331
02:02:43,760 --> 02:02:48,040
Speaker 3: rabdough are very very concerning if someone's exercising in the heat.

2332
02:02:48,040 --> 02:02:50,040
Speaker 3: But you'll often see at the end of hot events

2333
02:02:50,480 --> 02:02:53,240
Speaker 3: in first day tents they're popping people in ice bas

2334
02:02:53,240 --> 02:02:56,000
Speaker 3: to cool them down. They've got some of these symptoms,

2335
02:02:56,440 --> 02:02:58,040
Speaker 3: like fifteen twenty minutes I think is how long you

2336
02:02:58,080 --> 02:03:00,520
Speaker 3: want to put them in there for. But like if

2337
02:03:00,560 --> 02:03:03,760
Speaker 3: you're starting to feel headache, dizziness, and nausea, I guess

2338
02:03:04,600 --> 02:03:06,760
Speaker 3: my big take home here is get out of the sun,

2339
02:03:07,240 --> 02:03:11,200
Speaker 3: stop exercising if you're exercising, and start hydrating. If you're

2340
02:03:11,200 --> 02:03:14,720
Speaker 3: not hydrating with with that carbohydrate solution and you're looking

2341
02:03:14,800 --> 02:03:18,520
Speaker 3: to drop that cool temperature, that core temperature below that

2342
02:03:18,760 --> 02:03:20,400
Speaker 3: kind of danger zone, right, and I really get it

2343
02:03:20,440 --> 02:03:22,880
Speaker 3: back to where what's to be, which which I think

2344
02:03:22,880 --> 02:03:27,600
Speaker 3: in fahrenheit's around ninety six point six. You you probably

2345
02:03:27,600 --> 02:03:29,600
Speaker 3: don't want to actively cool someone all the way down

2346
02:03:29,680 --> 02:03:33,600
Speaker 3: because you can overshoot and they can get hypothermic and

2347
02:03:33,800 --> 02:03:37,600
Speaker 3: so like they can they can get too cold if

2348
02:03:37,680 --> 02:03:40,040
Speaker 3: you're like you know, dumping them in a freezer or

2349
02:03:40,200 --> 02:03:44,920
Speaker 3: like you know, actively calling them to aggressively. So that's

2350
02:03:44,960 --> 02:03:46,920
Speaker 3: something to be concerned with as well. And you don't

2351
02:03:46,920 --> 02:03:49,840
Speaker 3: want the person to start shivering because the body's trying

2352
02:03:49,880 --> 02:03:52,000
Speaker 3: to heat yourself back up at that point, so you

2353
02:03:52,040 --> 02:03:57,160
Speaker 3: can't be uber aggressive. But I think having said all this,

2354
02:03:57,400 --> 02:04:00,400
Speaker 3: like I said, the big take home is like if

2355
02:04:00,400 --> 02:04:05,640
Speaker 3: you start to feel sick, dizzy underwell, when you're outside

2356
02:04:05,600 --> 02:04:07,680
Speaker 3: in the heat, to get out the heat, get some water,

2357
02:04:08,760 --> 02:04:11,160
Speaker 3: get into shade, if you can, get their conditioning if

2358
02:04:11,160 --> 02:04:13,440
Speaker 3: you can. If you're at a job site, you know,

2359
02:04:13,720 --> 02:04:16,760
Speaker 3: if there's like a trailer where you with the sad conditioned,

2360
02:04:16,840 --> 02:04:20,440
Speaker 3: go in the trailer, like it's not worth your life,

2361
02:04:20,520 --> 02:04:21,480
Speaker 3: even if it's your job.

2362
02:04:21,800 --> 02:04:22,640
Speaker 6: You want to know it's fun?

2363
02:04:23,320 --> 02:04:24,320
Speaker 3: Is that what's fun?

2364
02:04:24,640 --> 02:04:27,440
Speaker 6: In the United States, there's no federal law that says

2365
02:04:27,440 --> 02:04:32,120
Speaker 6: you can't make people work in the hot weather without

2366
02:04:32,160 --> 02:04:36,040
Speaker 6: hell yeah, some states, less than half. I don't have

2367
02:04:36,080 --> 02:04:37,560
Speaker 6: the notes in front of me. I have the notes

2368
02:04:37,560 --> 02:04:41,200
Speaker 6: for a different thing I recorded recently. Some states, like

2369
02:04:41,280 --> 02:04:45,200
Speaker 6: sixteen of them or sometime maybe have laws against working

2370
02:04:45,240 --> 02:04:49,440
Speaker 6: people outside in the heat, but most states don't. The

2371
02:04:49,480 --> 02:04:52,920
Speaker 6: federal government is like considering one right now, but that

2372
02:04:53,080 --> 02:04:56,480
Speaker 6: is like probably years away before it could be enacted.

2373
02:04:56,480 --> 02:05:01,120
Speaker 6: But it's like basic worker protections, like don't have people

2374
02:05:01,160 --> 02:05:05,000
Speaker 6: work outside without enough stuff to make sure they don't.

2375
02:05:05,000 --> 02:05:11,360
Speaker 3: Die of it. Consider forming a union. Yeah, google Blair

2376
02:05:11,440 --> 02:05:15,280
Speaker 3: Mountain for more information on how to respond if you're

2377
02:05:15,320 --> 02:05:17,600
Speaker 3: not allowed, if you're not allowed to take breaks for

2378
02:05:17,640 --> 02:05:17,920
Speaker 3: the heat.

2379
02:05:18,080 --> 02:05:20,760
Speaker 6: Yeah yeah, yeah.

2380
02:05:21,320 --> 02:05:24,360
Speaker 3: Talking of how capitalism is killing us all, Margaret, it's

2381
02:05:24,400 --> 02:05:26,120
Speaker 3: time for us to break for some adverts so things

2382
02:05:26,160 --> 02:05:26,760
Speaker 3: people can buy.

2383
02:05:26,960 --> 02:05:31,240
Speaker 10: Oh, we have we have some breaking news here, folks.

2384
02:05:31,280 --> 02:05:33,920
Speaker 10: We have some breaking sheep news. So it turns out

2385
02:05:34,440 --> 02:05:39,800
Speaker 10: during during during James's Last Sheep episode, he talked about

2386
02:05:40,080 --> 02:05:47,040
Speaker 10: having texel sheep way when it's actually tessel sheep.

2387
02:05:46,960 --> 02:05:50,760
Speaker 3: So this is really no, they're they're definitely Texels.

2388
02:05:50,520 --> 02:05:57,480
Speaker 10: Who's pretty exciting here who the largest northwestern islands of

2389
02:05:57,520 --> 02:06:00,520
Speaker 10: the of the Netherlands. It's one of those European places

2390
02:06:00,520 --> 02:06:04,480
Speaker 10: where the pronuncidation, where the pronunciation does not match how

2391
02:06:04,480 --> 02:06:07,640
Speaker 10: it's written. And it's tessel sheep, not textel sheep. So

2392
02:06:07,720 --> 02:06:14,520
Speaker 10: this is pretty exciting for me. And usually James gets

2393
02:06:14,520 --> 02:06:19,000
Speaker 10: to make fun of how I pronounce words and now.

2394
02:06:19,000 --> 02:06:23,160
Speaker 2: And now now now looks so here we go here?

2395
02:06:23,000 --> 02:06:25,600
Speaker 6: Well should we? I mean, should we move into like

2396
02:06:25,760 --> 02:06:28,440
Speaker 6: machinations versus machinations or should we just move on?

2397
02:06:28,800 --> 02:06:31,440
Speaker 3: No, I think we can just move on here where

2398
02:06:31,520 --> 02:06:36,760
Speaker 3: We'll just start a Buenos Aires and move from there. Yeah, Garrison,

2399
02:06:36,840 --> 02:06:40,280
Speaker 3: the Speaker of Free, I have a hard life. They

2400
02:06:40,280 --> 02:06:42,200
Speaker 3: did not teach me how to say words in Canada.

2401
02:06:42,680 --> 02:06:43,440
Speaker 2: It was all I know.

2402
02:06:44,000 --> 02:06:47,400
Speaker 10: It was all tongues in the school. We couldn't We

2403
02:06:47,440 --> 02:06:51,080
Speaker 10: didn't actually learn much much English so much woods.

2404
02:06:51,160 --> 02:06:55,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, don't worry. Yeah, we're we're all learning as we go.

2405
02:06:55,320 --> 02:06:57,280
Speaker 3: You see, there we go. Yeah, I've just I've just

2406
02:06:57,360 --> 02:07:02,000
Speaker 3: learned that the place is called Tehsel and then that's

2407
02:07:02,120 --> 02:07:03,240
Speaker 3: the sheep from there.

2408
02:07:03,840 --> 02:07:05,240
Speaker 6: Is there an X in it or something?

2409
02:07:05,840 --> 02:07:10,480
Speaker 3: No? Yes, when you're yeah, is there an X all

2410
02:07:10,520 --> 02:07:14,920
Speaker 3: the time? T E XL Yeah, I always see, but

2411
02:07:15,160 --> 02:07:22,320
Speaker 3: X sounds the X sounds like an S. Yeah speaking, Yeah, fascinating. Yeah, wow,

2412
02:07:22,720 --> 02:07:26,320
Speaker 3: I like all my life I've been misnaming the very

2413
02:07:26,400 --> 02:07:29,560
Speaker 3: sheep that many of you enjoyed hearing about.

2414
02:07:30,280 --> 02:07:33,440
Speaker 6: Sad that no wonder the sheep weren't coming when you called,

2415
02:07:34,400 --> 02:07:37,360
Speaker 6: they felt no they come disrespected. Yeah, well never mind.

2416
02:07:37,440 --> 02:07:38,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, to be fair, I just go out there

2417
02:07:38,920 --> 02:07:43,160
Speaker 3: and say sheep, so you know I'm hedging my beds

2418
02:07:43,360 --> 02:07:44,920
Speaker 3: with the pronunciation of that one.

2419
02:07:45,360 --> 02:07:49,640
Speaker 6: Well, you want to talk about animals and heat waves.

2420
02:07:50,240 --> 02:07:51,720
Speaker 3: I would love to, Yeah, tell me. It was like,

2421
02:07:51,720 --> 02:07:52,600
Speaker 3: tell me what to do with your sheep.

2422
02:07:52,680 --> 02:07:55,320
Speaker 6: I talk about humans and heat and she and heat waves.

2423
02:07:55,440 --> 02:07:57,320
Speaker 6: So actually, ironically, one of the things that I learned,

2424
02:07:57,360 --> 02:07:59,240
Speaker 6: I don't know whether or not applies to sheep. I

2425
02:07:59,280 --> 02:08:02,360
Speaker 6: was talking before this to one of my professional animal

2426
02:08:02,440 --> 02:08:06,600
Speaker 6: friends who has worked in veterinary clinics and also as

2427
02:08:06,640 --> 02:08:12,480
Speaker 6: a professional horse person. So there's some stuff to know, right,

2428
02:08:13,200 --> 02:08:19,000
Speaker 6: for all of the people who aren't humans. Different animals

2429
02:08:19,040 --> 02:08:21,440
Speaker 6: need different electrolyte feel formulas if you are going to

2430
02:08:21,480 --> 02:08:26,720
Speaker 6: feed them electrolytes, and for example, dogs need more sugar

2431
02:08:26,760 --> 02:08:29,520
Speaker 6: and less salt because they their bodies don't get rid

2432
02:08:29,560 --> 02:08:31,960
Speaker 6: of salt as much. Right, they don't really sweat nearly

2433
02:08:32,040 --> 02:08:36,360
Speaker 6: so much. Occasional pedialyte or some other like non gator

2434
02:08:36,360 --> 02:08:39,200
Speaker 6: ady thing is fine every now and then, and probably

2435
02:08:39,240 --> 02:08:41,080
Speaker 6: gatorades probably fine every now and then. But don't be

2436
02:08:41,160 --> 02:08:45,120
Speaker 6: like you can go hiking and just drink electrolytes right,

2437
02:08:45,280 --> 02:08:49,200
Speaker 6: not sugar water, but electrolytes. But don't do that with

2438
02:08:49,240 --> 02:08:51,920
Speaker 6: your dog, even if it's super hot out. There is

2439
02:08:52,120 --> 02:08:54,680
Speaker 6: dog specific stuff and there's formulas you can look up

2440
02:08:54,720 --> 02:08:59,120
Speaker 6: for dog specific making your own. Don't shave your pets.

2441
02:08:59,200 --> 02:09:00,640
Speaker 6: This is the one that I do know if applies

2442
02:09:00,680 --> 02:09:01,080
Speaker 6: to sheep.

2443
02:09:01,280 --> 02:09:04,160
Speaker 10: My friend said, this does not apply to sheep. You

2444
02:09:04,280 --> 02:09:05,840
Speaker 10: have to share their You want to have to share

2445
02:09:05,880 --> 02:09:07,400
Speaker 10: your sheep or else they will overheat and die.

2446
02:09:07,560 --> 02:09:10,960
Speaker 6: Yeah, okay, yeah, you want to share your sheep. Yeah.

2447
02:09:11,600 --> 02:09:13,600
Speaker 6: Some animals you want to shave. Some animals you don't.

2448
02:09:13,640 --> 02:09:15,240
Speaker 6: If you have animals, you should look this up ahead

2449
02:09:15,280 --> 02:09:17,120
Speaker 6: of time. Some people like run out and shave their

2450
02:09:17,120 --> 02:09:19,720
Speaker 6: cats and dogs if in the heat wave. This is

2451
02:09:19,760 --> 02:09:23,160
Speaker 6: a very bad thing. The hair is designed to protect

2452
02:09:23,200 --> 02:09:26,400
Speaker 6: them from the sun. Also, especially like if you have

2453
02:09:26,440 --> 02:09:29,280
Speaker 6: a dog with a double coat, it does a lot

2454
02:09:29,320 --> 02:09:31,520
Speaker 6: of weird heat transfer stuff and it's really kind of

2455
02:09:31,520 --> 02:09:35,640
Speaker 6: cool and magic. Brushing and grooming are very good. If

2456
02:09:35,680 --> 02:09:38,200
Speaker 6: your dog is like slow to its summer coat, or

2457
02:09:38,720 --> 02:09:42,280
Speaker 6: it's summer is suddenly here eleven months of the year,

2458
02:09:42,960 --> 02:09:45,360
Speaker 6: or as I predict, there's going to be two seasons,

2459
02:09:45,400 --> 02:09:48,440
Speaker 6: there's going to be summer, which will last for nine months,

2460
02:09:48,480 --> 02:09:50,920
Speaker 6: and then there's going to be hell mouth, which will

2461
02:09:50,960 --> 02:09:55,680
Speaker 6: replace what was previously summer. Don't take your dog out

2462
02:09:55,680 --> 02:09:57,920
Speaker 6: in the hottest weather. It is better that your dog

2463
02:09:57,920 --> 02:10:00,680
Speaker 6: pisses inside it gets heatstroke. It is harder identify heat

2464
02:10:00,680 --> 02:10:02,560
Speaker 6: stroke and a dog, but if the dog is like

2465
02:10:02,640 --> 02:10:05,600
Speaker 6: panting a particular amount, there's like other things about looking

2466
02:10:05,640 --> 02:10:06,560
Speaker 6: to the gums and eyes.

2467
02:10:07,240 --> 02:10:09,080
Speaker 3: I got bitten by a dog that was having a

2468
02:10:09,120 --> 02:10:11,800
Speaker 3: heat stroke on my God, forcedy lie, it was good.

2469
02:10:11,800 --> 02:10:13,040
Speaker 3: I feel bad for both.

2470
02:10:13,280 --> 02:10:14,360
Speaker 6: The animals involved in that.

2471
02:10:14,520 --> 02:10:19,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, could feel fairly secure in saying that people who

2472
02:10:19,720 --> 02:10:21,800
Speaker 3: were looking off to dog aren't listening. But like, yeah,

2473
02:10:21,840 --> 02:10:25,360
Speaker 3: they made a series of very poor choices. Yeah, yeah,

2474
02:10:25,360 --> 02:10:27,160
Speaker 3: and like it wasn't nice.

2475
02:10:27,600 --> 02:10:30,280
Speaker 6: Hiking is my main activity and it is like my

2476
02:10:30,360 --> 02:10:32,440
Speaker 6: main bonding with me and my dog, and I am

2477
02:10:32,480 --> 02:10:34,720
Speaker 6: not doing it during a lot of the heat wave,

2478
02:10:36,680 --> 02:10:39,080
Speaker 6: and I'm finding other ways. I'm you know, because I'm

2479
02:10:39,440 --> 02:10:41,680
Speaker 6: I have to drive a decent way to go hiking, right,

2480
02:10:41,760 --> 02:10:44,280
Speaker 6: so I can't do it early in the morning unless

2481
02:10:44,280 --> 02:10:46,760
Speaker 6: I wake up earlier than I want to. But if

2482
02:10:46,760 --> 02:10:49,720
Speaker 6: you are going to do austseid activities with both yourself

2483
02:10:49,880 --> 02:10:53,720
Speaker 6: or with an animal. Consider doing them at early in

2484
02:10:53,720 --> 02:10:56,440
Speaker 6: the morning or late in the evening or mill the night.

2485
02:10:56,440 --> 02:10:56,920
Speaker 5: And I don't want it.

2486
02:10:56,960 --> 02:11:01,200
Speaker 6: Whatever if you have animals that can't come inside, because

2487
02:11:01,200 --> 02:11:03,320
Speaker 6: overall was going to apply to your animals, is it

2488
02:11:03,320 --> 02:11:04,760
Speaker 6: was going to apply to humans, like get them into

2489
02:11:04,760 --> 02:11:07,080
Speaker 6: the ac Like what are you doing? But a lot

2490
02:11:07,120 --> 02:11:09,280
Speaker 6: of animals you don't have a room for inside, right

2491
02:11:09,760 --> 02:11:12,240
Speaker 6: unless you're a medieval Irish peasant, in which case I've

2492
02:11:12,280 --> 02:11:16,160
Speaker 6: read way too much about how much those animals live inside.

2493
02:11:16,880 --> 02:11:19,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, cows under the house, so the warmth comes up.

2494
02:11:21,560 --> 02:11:24,560
Speaker 6: So you want a cross breeze in your barn or

2495
02:11:24,560 --> 02:11:27,280
Speaker 6: coop or whatever. If it's a coop, you want to

2496
02:11:27,280 --> 02:11:29,560
Speaker 6: make sure there's a place at the top for air

2497
02:11:29,600 --> 02:11:32,560
Speaker 6: to come escape. And you don't want the box style

2498
02:11:32,640 --> 02:11:35,360
Speaker 6: coop with only one entrance. If you're dealing with heat waves,

2499
02:11:36,640 --> 02:11:39,280
Speaker 6: you want a lot of cool water that is easy

2500
02:11:39,320 --> 02:11:41,280
Speaker 6: to drink. And so a lot of people who normally

2501
02:11:41,280 --> 02:11:44,160
Speaker 6: feed their animals with like the nipple style feeders, different animals,

2502
02:11:44,200 --> 02:11:46,960
Speaker 6: you have different ways of watering them. No, no nipple

2503
02:11:47,000 --> 02:11:49,280
Speaker 6: style feeders. During a heat wave, the animal needs to

2504
02:11:49,320 --> 02:11:51,800
Speaker 6: be able to get into the get the water easily.

2505
02:11:53,360 --> 02:11:55,839
Speaker 6: For chickens, you might want to bring your nesting boxes

2506
02:11:55,880 --> 02:11:58,840
Speaker 6: down to the ground floor where it's cooler. You also

2507
02:11:58,960 --> 02:12:01,800
Speaker 6: might want to consider insult lading the coop, like with

2508
02:12:01,880 --> 02:12:03,920
Speaker 6: hay bales, for example, you could stack them up next

2509
02:12:03,960 --> 02:12:08,560
Speaker 6: to your coop. Horses have yet another electrolyte mix. My

2510
02:12:08,680 --> 02:12:11,960
Speaker 6: horse professional friend uses one called Gallagher's Water, but points

2511
02:12:11,960 --> 02:12:15,160
Speaker 6: out that it's like mostly bougie people use it when

2512
02:12:15,200 --> 02:12:17,080
Speaker 6: they're when most people have horses are bougie, but not

2513
02:12:17,120 --> 02:12:20,920
Speaker 6: all of them, right at least where I live. Other places. Okay,

2514
02:12:20,960 --> 02:12:25,560
Speaker 6: so it's only necessary in extreme circumstances. It's only better

2515
02:12:25,600 --> 02:12:28,840
Speaker 6: than water in extreme circumstances. Most animals do very well

2516
02:12:28,880 --> 02:12:35,000
Speaker 6: with just drinking water. And also you can probably consider

2517
02:12:35,640 --> 02:12:39,880
Speaker 6: if you live somewhere wester than I do, you can

2518
02:12:39,920 --> 02:12:43,520
Speaker 6: consider misting systems if you have the money in the infrastructure.

2519
02:12:44,120 --> 02:12:49,320
Speaker 6: And misting systems is basically just like it pumps water

2520
02:12:49,400 --> 02:12:51,720
Speaker 6: out into a mist, and the mist cools everything down

2521
02:12:51,800 --> 02:12:56,400
Speaker 6: and below about seventy percent humidity, they're fairly effective. Below

2522
02:12:56,440 --> 02:13:00,480
Speaker 6: fifty percent of humidity, they're incredibly effective, and so they

2523
02:13:01,120 --> 02:13:03,600
Speaker 6: and it's not that you get wet it's that they do.

2524
02:13:03,760 --> 02:13:07,680
Speaker 6: It's like it's like the air is sweating, the air is.

2525
02:13:08,160 --> 02:13:10,640
Speaker 3: They're like you have in if you go to restaurants

2526
02:13:10,640 --> 02:13:12,480
Speaker 3: in Phoenix outside they have them.

2527
02:13:12,720 --> 02:13:12,960
Speaker 4: Yeah.

2528
02:13:13,560 --> 02:13:18,200
Speaker 3: I bought some really cheap off like Craigslist, like super cheap.

2529
02:13:18,200 --> 02:13:19,560
Speaker 3: Like I think, I actually I just have to go

2530
02:13:19,640 --> 02:13:20,160
Speaker 3: and get them.

2531
02:13:20,960 --> 02:13:25,200
Speaker 6: Yeah, but no, I'm like so jealous because it wouldn't

2532
02:13:25,200 --> 02:13:25,800
Speaker 6: work where I live.

2533
02:13:26,040 --> 02:13:27,600
Speaker 3: You can't use them because of a high humidity.

2534
02:13:27,760 --> 02:13:30,800
Speaker 6: I mean they do a little bit here, but not

2535
02:13:31,200 --> 02:13:31,960
Speaker 6: very effectively.

2536
02:13:33,040 --> 02:13:35,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, I know your chickens don't want to be living

2537
02:13:35,120 --> 02:13:36,880
Speaker 3: in a too damp environment. It could be that that

2538
02:13:36,920 --> 02:13:42,760
Speaker 3: a lungs, so don't be running one inside all the time. Yeah,

2539
02:13:42,840 --> 02:13:45,840
Speaker 3: and the inside. But I think it's certainly like my

2540
02:13:45,960 --> 02:13:48,520
Speaker 3: chickens will go around it when it's hot. It seems

2541
02:13:48,560 --> 02:13:48,720
Speaker 3: to it.

2542
02:13:48,840 --> 02:13:50,280
Speaker 6: And one person I talked to and this is like

2543
02:13:50,320 --> 02:13:52,680
Speaker 6: I did a bunch of research about this, but it's inconclusive.

2544
02:13:53,640 --> 02:13:56,600
Speaker 6: One person I talked to during the wildfire smoke actually

2545
02:13:56,600 --> 02:13:59,600
Speaker 6: set up a particulate set up a misting system because

2546
02:13:59,680 --> 02:14:03,000
Speaker 6: mist picks up and drops particulate matter to the cloud.

2547
02:14:03,880 --> 02:14:08,560
Speaker 6: There's a lot of research that says this particulate absorption happens.

2548
02:14:08,800 --> 02:14:11,400
Speaker 6: There is no research to say this is how you

2549
02:14:11,440 --> 02:14:16,840
Speaker 6: handle wildfire smoke with outside animals, but that is something

2550
02:14:16,880 --> 02:14:18,680
Speaker 6: that at least one person I heard from is doing,

2551
02:14:18,760 --> 02:14:23,720
Speaker 6: and science backs it up for human animals in terms

2552
02:14:23,760 --> 02:14:25,800
Speaker 6: of preparedness. Just to run through all this stuff that

2553
02:14:25,840 --> 02:14:28,600
Speaker 6: I've been keeping track of the way that you're going

2554
02:14:28,640 --> 02:14:30,360
Speaker 6: to deal with all this if you're not outside, right,

2555
02:14:30,360 --> 02:14:32,040
Speaker 6: if you're outside and you're dealing with the stuff, you're

2556
02:14:32,040 --> 02:14:34,240
Speaker 6: going to use what James talked about and like keep

2557
02:14:34,280 --> 02:14:36,720
Speaker 6: track of how you're feeling and get into the AC.

2558
02:14:36,840 --> 02:14:37,920
Speaker 6: I mean, the main thing you want to do is

2559
02:14:37,920 --> 02:14:40,240
Speaker 6: get into AC right. You don't want to do strenuous exercise.

2560
02:14:41,160 --> 02:14:43,160
Speaker 6: You want to check alerts on your phone or your

2561
02:14:43,160 --> 02:14:45,000
Speaker 6: weather radio. If you're a cool prepper and have like

2562
02:14:45,360 --> 02:14:48,800
Speaker 6: a little weather radio, you probably want to use the

2563
02:14:48,840 --> 02:14:51,800
Speaker 6: buddy system outside if it's getting really hot, if you can, right,

2564
02:14:52,120 --> 02:14:54,280
Speaker 6: just like having someone who can keep track of what

2565
02:14:55,040 --> 02:14:57,520
Speaker 6: you're doing. If you don't have another way to get

2566
02:14:57,520 --> 02:15:01,480
Speaker 6: to AC, consider public libraries in other places. This is

2567
02:15:01,520 --> 02:15:05,440
Speaker 6: a very good active time. Look after your neighbors, and

2568
02:15:05,480 --> 02:15:08,040
Speaker 6: some of your neighbors are housed and might not have AC.

2569
02:15:08,400 --> 02:15:11,280
Speaker 6: Some of your neighbors don't have houses and probably don't

2570
02:15:11,280 --> 02:15:13,040
Speaker 6: have AC unless they live in their vehicles, in which

2571
02:15:13,080 --> 02:15:15,880
Speaker 6: case they might have some AC, but not all vehicles do.

2572
02:15:17,440 --> 02:15:19,240
Speaker 6: And so there's a very good time to look after people,

2573
02:15:19,240 --> 02:15:22,760
Speaker 6: whether it's giving people rides to public cooling centers, or

2574
02:15:22,800 --> 02:15:25,240
Speaker 6: whether it's setting up public cooling centers, or they're just

2575
02:15:25,320 --> 02:15:27,680
Speaker 6: letting your neighbor who like come over because your AC

2576
02:15:27,800 --> 02:15:33,240
Speaker 6: is working and theres isn't you want to I mean,

2577
02:15:33,320 --> 02:15:35,400
Speaker 6: one thing that you want to do is to accept

2578
02:15:35,440 --> 02:15:37,240
Speaker 6: that what we're dealing with isn't normal. And I'll get

2579
02:15:37,240 --> 02:15:39,960
Speaker 6: to that in a moment. But so if you're a renter,

2580
02:15:40,200 --> 02:15:43,800
Speaker 6: you have fewer options, right in terms of like structural preparedness,

2581
02:15:44,040 --> 02:15:46,360
Speaker 6: there are some things that you can do. Running fans,

2582
02:15:46,480 --> 02:15:49,120
Speaker 6: unless you're a podcaster, running fans is a very good idea.

2583
02:15:50,400 --> 02:15:52,240
Speaker 6: If you have ceiling fans, you want to make sure

2584
02:15:52,240 --> 02:15:55,360
Speaker 6: that during the summer they run counterclockwise and during the

2585
02:15:55,400 --> 02:16:00,880
Speaker 6: winter they run clockwise. So it's just look and be

2586
02:16:00,960 --> 02:16:03,000
Speaker 6: like I wanted to push air down, and you can

2587
02:16:03,080 --> 02:16:05,560
Speaker 6: visualize the direction it'll turn to push air down, and

2588
02:16:05,600 --> 02:16:10,320
Speaker 6: that's the summer one I want change the direction they spin. Yes,

2589
02:16:10,400 --> 02:16:12,960
Speaker 6: there is a little switch on every ceiling fan. I

2590
02:16:12,960 --> 02:16:14,120
Speaker 6: can see the one behind you.

2591
02:16:14,560 --> 02:16:15,880
Speaker 3: I can see it.

2592
02:16:16,760 --> 02:16:18,920
Speaker 6: Don't do it well if you look on screen.

2593
02:16:19,920 --> 02:16:24,320
Speaker 3: No, don't be a coward. Garrison, walk me through it.

2594
02:16:25,160 --> 02:16:27,280
Speaker 2: Okay, I think I see it now.

2595
02:16:27,360 --> 02:16:31,240
Speaker 10: Yeah, but closer off and want me to put my

2596
02:16:31,360 --> 02:16:32,760
Speaker 10: arm up and then do it.

2597
02:16:32,760 --> 02:16:34,440
Speaker 3: It's less because you're going to stick your head in

2598
02:16:34,480 --> 02:16:40,120
Speaker 3: there so you can get a good look at Oh ah, no,

2599
02:16:40,200 --> 02:16:41,200
Speaker 3: Garrisons deceased.

2600
02:16:41,640 --> 02:16:45,080
Speaker 6: Oh well, good thing they left me their Gester costume.

2601
02:16:45,560 --> 02:16:47,400
Speaker 3: You'll never find out any more about cops.

2602
02:16:48,920 --> 02:16:50,880
Speaker 6: I'm city has to end because there's no other way

2603
02:16:50,879 --> 02:16:52,240
Speaker 6: for us to find out about it.

2604
02:16:55,440 --> 02:16:56,320
Speaker 3: They finally stopped.

2605
02:16:56,320 --> 02:16:59,000
Speaker 6: All right, So other things that you can do. Evaporative

2606
02:16:59,000 --> 02:17:00,920
Speaker 6: cooling is the coolest thing.

2607
02:17:00,920 --> 02:17:01,320
Speaker 4: In the world.

2608
02:17:01,400 --> 02:17:03,080
Speaker 6: Again, if you're not in a human area. This is

2609
02:17:03,080 --> 02:17:05,640
Speaker 6: why humidity is absolutely terrible. And I picked the wrong

2610
02:17:05,920 --> 02:17:10,320
Speaker 6: part of the country to be from wet bandanas, wet clothing.

2611
02:17:10,680 --> 02:17:13,040
Speaker 6: There's actually like, it's kind of sad. I was saying

2612
02:17:13,040 --> 02:17:16,279
Speaker 6: that there's no labor protections about heat. Some farm workers

2613
02:17:16,840 --> 02:17:21,320
Speaker 6: like developed a like an immigrant farm worker developed a

2614
02:17:21,440 --> 02:17:24,280
Speaker 6: cooling vest system that she's like working on that. There's

2615
02:17:24,320 --> 02:17:27,199
Speaker 6: like articles about where it just uses a vaporative cooling

2616
02:17:27,200 --> 02:17:28,840
Speaker 6: to cool people. And it's like one of those things

2617
02:17:28,879 --> 02:17:31,400
Speaker 6: where I'm like that rules. And also it's absolutely awful

2618
02:17:31,440 --> 02:17:34,480
Speaker 6: that that's like where we're at. Where we're at, you know,

2619
02:17:34,640 --> 02:17:37,600
Speaker 6: is not like, oh, let's have better labor practices and stuff.

2620
02:17:39,760 --> 02:17:43,039
Speaker 6: And if you have a house, if you have like

2621
02:17:43,080 --> 02:17:49,080
Speaker 6: a place that you can really do preparedness for, there's

2622
02:17:49,760 --> 02:17:52,960
Speaker 6: I mean, we'll just get an air conditioner. Don't run

2623
02:17:53,000 --> 02:17:55,200
Speaker 6: your air conditioner as like low as it'll go. It

2624
02:17:55,320 --> 02:17:58,240
Speaker 6: just doesn't actually make things any cooler. Air conditioners are

2625
02:17:58,280 --> 02:18:01,440
Speaker 6: generally designed and only cool things. I want to say,

2626
02:18:01,520 --> 02:18:05,760
Speaker 6: was it like thirty degrees below outside temperature or something? Yeah?

2627
02:18:06,600 --> 02:18:10,039
Speaker 3: And I think also depends on the size of the

2628
02:18:10,080 --> 02:18:12,040
Speaker 3: relative space you're cooling in a BTUC.

2629
02:18:12,520 --> 02:18:15,080
Speaker 6: Well, so I'm saying that they're sized for that by

2630
02:18:15,240 --> 02:18:17,520
Speaker 6: like regulation. If someone comes in it is like, oh,

2631
02:18:17,560 --> 02:18:20,120
Speaker 6: what size AC should I put into this house, it's

2632
02:18:20,160 --> 02:18:22,840
Speaker 6: going to be I want this size house to be

2633
02:18:23,080 --> 02:18:25,200
Speaker 6: be cooled thirty degrees. I think it's thirty degrees. It

2634
02:18:25,240 --> 02:18:28,400
Speaker 6: might be twenty four, okay, And so if you run

2635
02:18:28,440 --> 02:18:31,640
Speaker 6: your fans. You actually can keep your thermostat up about

2636
02:18:31,640 --> 02:18:36,320
Speaker 6: four degrees and if you don't have it, If you

2637
02:18:36,320 --> 02:18:37,600
Speaker 6: don't have AC, there's a lot you can do with

2638
02:18:37,680 --> 02:18:39,800
Speaker 6: like thermal mass right is your friend, Like if you

2639
02:18:39,800 --> 02:18:41,640
Speaker 6: have a if you can choose which house you're going

2640
02:18:41,680 --> 02:18:43,400
Speaker 6: to live in, living in brick houses is great or

2641
02:18:43,400 --> 02:18:45,720
Speaker 6: adobe houses. It depends on where you live and what

2642
02:18:45,760 --> 02:18:49,160
Speaker 6: your climate is. You want to keep your curtains closed

2643
02:18:49,240 --> 02:18:51,200
Speaker 6: during the day and open at night if you're trying

2644
02:18:51,240 --> 02:18:53,120
Speaker 6: to keep out the sun, but then let out the

2645
02:18:53,160 --> 02:18:56,280
Speaker 6: heat into the cool night air, assuming that there's still

2646
02:18:56,280 --> 02:18:58,400
Speaker 6: cool night air. Depends on where you live. As we

2647
02:18:58,520 --> 02:19:03,960
Speaker 6: enter into this nightmare world, Reflective window insulation y things

2648
02:19:04,000 --> 02:19:06,080
Speaker 6: like the thing that you put in your windshield can help.

2649
02:19:06,240 --> 02:19:09,039
Speaker 6: There's like stuff you can do when you accept that

2650
02:19:09,080 --> 02:19:14,360
Speaker 6: it's an emergency and you can okay. But then the

2651
02:19:14,360 --> 02:19:16,680
Speaker 6: other thing is that running AC's puts a lot of

2652
02:19:16,720 --> 02:19:19,039
Speaker 6: strain on the power grid, and we're already starting to

2653
02:19:19,040 --> 02:19:21,879
Speaker 6: see more grid failure, usually in the brown out style

2654
02:19:21,959 --> 02:19:26,080
Speaker 6: rather than the blackout style. But when everyone's running their AC,

2655
02:19:27,800 --> 02:19:30,320
Speaker 6: the grid is not designed to handle it, and there

2656
02:19:30,320 --> 02:19:34,960
Speaker 6: are problems, and so one you get these like city

2657
02:19:34,959 --> 02:19:39,040
Speaker 6: wide text alerts that are like, hey, everyone, please turn

2658
02:19:39,120 --> 02:19:41,400
Speaker 6: up your AC like turned down whatever, make your AC

2659
02:19:41,600 --> 02:19:46,320
Speaker 6: less cold cold. And this is an example of something

2660
02:19:46,360 --> 02:19:49,119
Speaker 6: that we should do and listen to. But it's really

2661
02:19:49,200 --> 02:19:51,240
Speaker 6: fucking annoying because it's not our fucking fault that the

2662
02:19:51,240 --> 02:19:53,880
Speaker 6: world is heating up, right, And they're not like turning

2663
02:19:53,920 --> 02:19:56,560
Speaker 6: off Times Square. They're telling everyone, you know, they're not

2664
02:19:56,600 --> 02:20:00,320
Speaker 6: turning off the ads. Yeah, speaking of ads, it's a

2665
02:20:00,320 --> 02:20:03,640
Speaker 6: good time to pivot to some some more stuff. Even

2666
02:20:03,760 --> 02:20:06,519
Speaker 6: it is waste, wasting power, and even in the emergency,

2667
02:20:06,800 --> 02:20:10,400
Speaker 6: there's still the ads. Here you go and we're back.

2668
02:20:12,600 --> 02:20:16,720
Speaker 3: Hopefully. It was for gold, which is useless in the heat.

2669
02:20:16,720 --> 02:20:19,879
Speaker 3: Death of the nurse. I just want to throw that

2670
02:20:19,920 --> 02:20:20,320
Speaker 3: out there.

2671
02:20:21,720 --> 02:20:24,920
Speaker 6: Yeah, but it does keep its value compared to.

2672
02:20:24,879 --> 02:20:26,240
Speaker 4: Cash, just.

2673
02:20:28,120 --> 02:20:30,040
Speaker 3: Until neither of them have that.

2674
02:20:30,040 --> 02:20:33,040
Speaker 6: That's why whiskey Oh wait, no wait, mutual aid.

2675
02:20:33,720 --> 02:20:36,600
Speaker 10: Now, that's why I've been stacking on my on my

2676
02:20:36,840 --> 02:20:39,879
Speaker 10: series of John's Version inspired n f T s that

2677
02:20:39,920 --> 02:20:43,840
Speaker 10: I minted last year, and oh boy, have they only

2678
02:20:43,879 --> 02:20:44,640
Speaker 10: grown in value?

2679
02:20:44,680 --> 02:20:44,920
Speaker 4: Am I?

2680
02:20:45,160 --> 02:20:46,840
Speaker 10: I'm telling you this is that this is what's going

2681
02:20:46,920 --> 02:20:50,920
Speaker 10: to hold me through whenever, whenever, you know, the thing happens.

2682
02:20:52,120 --> 02:20:54,680
Speaker 3: Yep, I will be at your door with my wanting

2683
02:20:54,720 --> 02:21:02,440
Speaker 3: to try ammunition for apes as I always am. Find

2684
02:21:02,440 --> 02:21:03,200
Speaker 3: me in the group yet.

2685
02:21:04,120 --> 02:21:07,360
Speaker 6: But there's one other group of people that I want

2686
02:21:07,400 --> 02:21:09,600
Speaker 6: to talk about really quickly about who we should check

2687
02:21:09,600 --> 02:21:13,280
Speaker 6: in on, and that is prisoners. There is no way

2688
02:21:13,360 --> 02:21:14,760
Speaker 6: from my point of view, I'm gonna have a lot

2689
02:21:14,760 --> 02:21:16,840
Speaker 6: of bias here. There is no way for us to

2690
02:21:17,160 --> 02:21:20,640
Speaker 6: justly face a climate emergency while we live in a

2691
02:21:20,720 --> 02:21:25,120
Speaker 6: carcoral society in Texas. This is where most of the

2692
02:21:25,160 --> 02:21:27,199
Speaker 6: news is right now. But that's not like it's better

2693
02:21:27,320 --> 02:21:29,800
Speaker 6: other places. As far as I can tell, in Texas,

2694
02:21:29,879 --> 02:21:33,280
Speaker 6: since mid June, between nine and twenty three prisoners have

2695
02:21:33,360 --> 02:21:38,320
Speaker 6: died from heat, but no one knows because Texas refuses

2696
02:21:38,360 --> 02:21:40,560
Speaker 6: to say that anyone has died from heat. They haven't

2697
02:21:40,560 --> 02:21:43,640
Speaker 6: done that since I believe twenty twelve is the last

2698
02:21:43,640 --> 02:21:46,960
Speaker 6: time they admitted someone died from heat. However, two thirds

2699
02:21:47,000 --> 02:21:50,560
Speaker 6: of Texas prisons don't have air conditioning, and a bunch

2700
02:21:50,560 --> 02:21:53,600
Speaker 6: of people are dying randomly of heart attacks in their

2701
02:21:53,640 --> 02:21:56,160
Speaker 6: thirties because they're dying of heat.

2702
02:21:56,440 --> 02:21:57,199
Speaker 3: Jesus correct.

2703
02:21:57,640 --> 02:22:01,600
Speaker 10: I think earlier in the first few weeks of July

2704
02:22:01,680 --> 02:22:03,600
Speaker 10: when it was getting very, very hot.

2705
02:22:04,200 --> 02:22:05,039
Speaker 3: I believe it.

2706
02:22:05,040 --> 02:22:06,960
Speaker 10: It was a pretty young woman died in the Fulton

2707
02:22:07,000 --> 02:22:10,800
Speaker 10: County jail here in Atlanta. Yeah sure, and it's they're

2708
02:22:10,800 --> 02:22:12,959
Speaker 10: doing an investigation to see why.

2709
02:22:13,240 --> 02:22:15,119
Speaker 3: So yeah, oh.

2710
02:22:14,959 --> 02:22:20,039
Speaker 6: Good, don't worry. The Texas State House passed money to

2711
02:22:20,040 --> 02:22:23,480
Speaker 6: put AC into prisons, and then the Senate rejected it.

2712
02:22:23,680 --> 02:22:27,199
Speaker 3: Cool, big thing is for money, because not much money

2713
02:22:27,200 --> 02:22:29,440
Speaker 3: in law enforcement, so I can see how they're struggling

2714
02:22:29,520 --> 02:22:30,080
Speaker 3: to afford that.

2715
02:22:30,120 --> 02:22:32,400
Speaker 6: Otherwise, Yeah, there was a oh I didn't write down

2716
02:22:32,400 --> 02:22:36,760
Speaker 6: the numbers in my script, but there was like a

2717
02:22:36,800 --> 02:22:41,960
Speaker 6: many millions of dollar budget surplus that they didn't apply to. Oh,

2718
02:22:42,000 --> 02:22:46,720
Speaker 6: I don't know. Not having people die for having been

2719
02:22:46,760 --> 02:22:49,200
Speaker 6: accused of owning weed.

2720
02:22:51,000 --> 02:22:52,120
Speaker 5: Yeah, I don't know.

2721
02:22:52,120 --> 02:22:52,360
Speaker 2: Whatever.

2722
02:22:52,400 --> 02:22:54,200
Speaker 6: I get really fucking mad about this, and I think

2723
02:22:54,200 --> 02:22:54,760
Speaker 6: that it is.

2724
02:22:54,680 --> 02:22:56,720
Speaker 5: Like it's fucking horrific.

2725
02:22:57,280 --> 02:22:57,560
Speaker 2: Okay.

2726
02:22:57,560 --> 02:23:00,920
Speaker 6: And then the last thing I really want to say

2727
02:23:01,840 --> 02:23:06,120
Speaker 6: is that this was the hottest month, right that any

2728
02:23:06,160 --> 02:23:10,240
Speaker 6: of us have ever experienced. It will be the coolest

2729
02:23:10,280 --> 02:23:14,360
Speaker 6: month in our memory at some point, you know, or

2730
02:23:14,440 --> 02:23:16,800
Speaker 6: rather whatever, it's not getting.

2731
02:23:16,560 --> 02:23:19,240
Speaker 2: Coolest July our in our memory at some point.

2732
02:23:19,360 --> 02:23:22,240
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, like next year might be a little bit

2733
02:23:22,240 --> 02:23:24,360
Speaker 6: cooler because of natural cycles or whatever, right, but it's

2734
02:23:24,400 --> 02:23:27,840
Speaker 6: not coming back. We're not going back to normal. And

2735
02:23:27,959 --> 02:23:34,560
Speaker 6: for me, this month marks a sea change literally and

2736
02:23:34,600 --> 02:23:37,480
Speaker 6: that the Arctic Antarctic ice did not come back this winter.

2737
02:23:37,520 --> 02:23:40,840
Speaker 6: It's winter right now in Antarctica, and there's a five

2738
02:23:41,120 --> 02:23:44,160
Speaker 6: or six standard deviation away from normal amount of ice

2739
02:23:44,640 --> 02:23:48,720
Speaker 6: there right now. Five to six standard deviations is more

2740
02:23:48,800 --> 02:23:51,200
Speaker 6: than if you flipped a coin one hundred times and

2741
02:23:51,200 --> 02:23:52,879
Speaker 6: it came up heads every single time. It is like

2742
02:23:53,000 --> 02:23:55,920
Speaker 6: more than a one in three point five million chance.

2743
02:23:56,320 --> 02:23:56,560
Speaker 3: Right.

2744
02:23:56,640 --> 02:23:58,920
Speaker 6: It is a very big number. It is a very

2745
02:23:59,040 --> 02:24:02,600
Speaker 6: abnormal thing. Nothing like this has ever been seen before.

2746
02:24:02,959 --> 02:24:05,879
Speaker 6: And I don't want to say this to make people afraid,

2747
02:24:05,959 --> 02:24:08,480
Speaker 6: because I don't think we need to be. For whatever.

2748
02:24:08,720 --> 02:24:12,039
Speaker 6: Fear is complicated. You can't be brave unless you're afraid.

2749
02:24:12,080 --> 02:24:15,280
Speaker 6: That's what I will say. You cannot have courage. Courage

2750
02:24:15,320 --> 02:24:19,040
Speaker 6: is the act of responding to fear, and we should

2751
02:24:19,840 --> 02:24:23,880
Speaker 6: notice the fear and not let it control us. But

2752
02:24:23,920 --> 02:24:28,920
Speaker 6: it really is time for people to very seriously look

2753
02:24:29,640 --> 02:24:33,160
Speaker 6: at not what's going to happen by twenty fifty, but

2754
02:24:33,240 --> 02:24:36,400
Speaker 6: what is happening now, what is happening now, what will

2755
02:24:36,400 --> 02:24:38,800
Speaker 6: happen in the next three years, the next five years,

2756
02:24:38,800 --> 02:24:44,000
Speaker 6: the next ten years, and start making decisions based on that.

2757
02:24:44,000 --> 02:24:45,480
Speaker 6: That is what I want. I don't want to tell

2758
02:24:45,480 --> 02:24:47,760
Speaker 6: people what those decisions are. I want people to get

2759
02:24:47,760 --> 02:24:50,200
Speaker 6: together with the people that they care about and figure

2760
02:24:50,240 --> 02:24:52,480
Speaker 6: out what those decisions are. One of the things that

2761
02:24:52,520 --> 02:24:57,920
Speaker 6: I would recommend is building resilient communities is looking at

2762
02:24:57,920 --> 02:25:00,320
Speaker 6: how to build communities right. And there's a lot of ways.

2763
02:25:00,320 --> 02:25:02,480
Speaker 6: A lot of like scenes can become communities, a lot

2764
02:25:02,480 --> 02:25:05,160
Speaker 6: of extended families can become communities. A lot of religious

2765
02:25:05,200 --> 02:25:10,760
Speaker 6: organizations are communities. Okay, how and then how to make

2766
02:25:10,800 --> 02:25:15,920
Speaker 6: them resilient? How to collectively look at how to handle

2767
02:25:15,959 --> 02:25:20,240
Speaker 6: these things. Whether it's literally just having a plan for like, Okay,

2768
02:25:20,240 --> 02:25:23,080
Speaker 6: if the power goes out, who has the whole house

2769
02:25:23,160 --> 02:25:26,200
Speaker 6: generator where I live? Someone around being has god to

2770
02:25:26,200 --> 02:25:28,440
Speaker 6: have a whole house generator. I don't have one. I

2771
02:25:28,480 --> 02:25:31,240
Speaker 6: want one, but they're expensive. Whose ac is still going

2772
02:25:31,320 --> 02:25:32,720
Speaker 6: to be running when the power goes out?

2773
02:25:32,879 --> 02:25:33,080
Speaker 4: Right?

2774
02:25:34,520 --> 02:25:40,720
Speaker 6: Or whether it's like, hey, how can we collectively help

2775
02:25:40,760 --> 02:25:43,720
Speaker 6: each other's houses have rain water catchment systems?

2776
02:25:44,160 --> 02:25:44,360
Speaker 4: Right?

2777
02:25:44,800 --> 02:25:50,160
Speaker 6: How can we collectively be building up food sovereignty as

2778
02:25:50,160 --> 02:25:54,080
Speaker 6: well as food storage. How can we have I want

2779
02:25:54,080 --> 02:25:57,600
Speaker 6: to see personally, I want to see days of workshops

2780
02:25:57,600 --> 02:26:02,480
Speaker 6: at community centers of all different ideals, compositions getting together

2781
02:26:02,520 --> 02:26:04,760
Speaker 6: and being like, here's how you can food, here's how

2782
02:26:04,760 --> 02:26:08,840
Speaker 6: you dry food, here is how you set up mesh networks.

2783
02:26:09,400 --> 02:26:09,760
Speaker 4: I just.

2784
02:26:11,480 --> 02:26:16,480
Speaker 6: I think it's time. I think that I'm tired of saying, hey,

2785
02:26:16,600 --> 02:26:20,199
Speaker 6: bad stuff might be coming, because it's not might be coming.

2786
02:26:20,240 --> 02:26:24,400
Speaker 6: Now it's here and it's really bad. And I think

2787
02:26:24,440 --> 02:26:26,640
Speaker 6: people stick to the might be coming because they're afraid

2788
02:26:26,680 --> 02:26:31,600
Speaker 6: of despair. And I will say that despair is not good, right,

2789
02:26:33,120 --> 02:26:37,120
Speaker 6: but that is something that we can fight. How do

2790
02:26:37,160 --> 02:26:40,240
Speaker 6: we fight despair is also part of this? And the

2791
02:26:40,320 --> 02:26:43,040
Speaker 6: answer to that is agency, and when we can find

2792
02:26:43,080 --> 02:26:45,960
Speaker 6: ways to act with agency, that is I mean, there's

2793
02:26:46,000 --> 02:26:48,560
Speaker 6: like studies about like in disasters, people who express agency

2794
02:26:48,600 --> 02:26:51,920
Speaker 6: have like less PTSD right when bad things happen, Yeah,

2795
02:26:52,360 --> 02:26:54,440
Speaker 6: and even if the agency, like I mean, I remember

2796
02:26:54,480 --> 02:26:56,240
Speaker 6: all at one point getting arrested, right and being like,

2797
02:26:56,240 --> 02:26:58,640
Speaker 6: all right, well, I'm keeping track of like I know

2798
02:26:58,720 --> 02:27:00,959
Speaker 6: that cops badge number, I know this, I know this,

2799
02:27:01,120 --> 02:27:04,400
Speaker 6: I'm keeping track of stuff in case there's a lawsuit later.

2800
02:27:04,440 --> 02:27:08,680
Speaker 6: I totally lost that lawsuit, but like that helped me

2801
02:27:08,760 --> 02:27:10,160
Speaker 6: get through that situation.

2802
02:27:10,680 --> 02:27:10,840
Speaker 4: Right.

2803
02:27:11,360 --> 02:27:13,240
Speaker 6: Everyone else won the lawsuit, but because I was in

2804
02:27:13,280 --> 02:27:17,480
Speaker 6: black block, I did not win the lawsuits. That's funny,

2805
02:27:17,680 --> 02:27:20,880
Speaker 6: that's funny. Yeah, anyway, Actually it might have been because

2806
02:27:20,879 --> 02:27:23,960
Speaker 6: I refused to give my name anyway, whatever, it was

2807
02:27:24,000 --> 02:27:24,680
Speaker 6: a long time ago.

2808
02:27:25,080 --> 02:27:26,039
Speaker 2: And fill this.

2809
02:27:27,520 --> 02:27:32,240
Speaker 6: And just so yeah, act with agency. That is the solution.

2810
02:27:32,360 --> 02:27:35,560
Speaker 6: The solution it is. It's like, like, it's not the

2811
02:27:35,560 --> 02:27:37,080
Speaker 6: solution to the spar it's a way to deal with

2812
02:27:37,120 --> 02:27:38,560
Speaker 6: it in the same way that we're not looking at

2813
02:27:38,600 --> 02:27:41,160
Speaker 6: solutions to climate change anymore. We're looking at ways to

2814
02:27:41,200 --> 02:27:42,840
Speaker 6: deal with it, right because it's already here.

2815
02:27:43,200 --> 02:27:43,440
Speaker 3: Yeah.

2816
02:27:43,680 --> 02:27:47,360
Speaker 10: Yeah, some of the episodes that me and Robert research

2817
02:27:47,440 --> 02:27:49,560
Speaker 10: to put together for the original, like could happen your

2818
02:27:49,640 --> 02:27:50,160
Speaker 10: Season two.

2819
02:27:50,080 --> 02:27:51,200
Speaker 6: Stuff is yeah a lot.

2820
02:27:51,240 --> 02:27:56,040
Speaker 10: I was talking about like a mitigation versus adaptation, And

2821
02:27:56,560 --> 02:27:59,000
Speaker 10: almost every day it looks like we're getting more and

2822
02:27:59,040 --> 02:28:02,600
Speaker 10: more committed to just full a full adaption model because

2823
02:28:02,720 --> 02:28:05,480
Speaker 10: these things are really not going to be like the

2824
02:28:05,520 --> 02:28:08,320
Speaker 10: most common widespread effects is not going to be mitigated.

2825
02:28:09,200 --> 02:28:13,440
Speaker 10: There's still a few like cataclysmic scenarios that that probably

2826
02:28:13,480 --> 02:28:15,840
Speaker 10: could be averted, but things are going to get so much,

2827
02:28:15,879 --> 02:28:19,280
Speaker 10: so much worse, and that will be to deal with that,

2828
02:28:19,959 --> 02:28:23,879
Speaker 10: we will have to adopt a large variety of adaptions

2829
02:28:24,520 --> 02:28:30,480
Speaker 10: and it's gonna suck, but it's it's what we're gonna

2830
02:28:30,480 --> 02:28:33,520
Speaker 10: have to do. I don't know, I've there's there's a

2831
02:28:33,600 --> 02:28:35,600
Speaker 10: variety of reactions to this. I mean, I think I

2832
02:28:35,600 --> 02:28:37,520
Speaker 10: should just put together an episode on this sometime in

2833
02:28:37,560 --> 02:28:42,880
Speaker 10: the future. But like there's as this as the intensity

2834
02:28:43,120 --> 02:28:48,400
Speaker 10: of the situations more and more, like, as as it

2835
02:28:48,400 --> 02:28:50,400
Speaker 10: becomes more and more clear, we're going to get a

2836
02:28:50,480 --> 02:28:52,879
Speaker 10: variety of reactions from especially for people on the right

2837
02:28:52,879 --> 02:28:57,519
Speaker 10: who used to be very much pure purely like ignoring

2838
02:28:57,680 --> 02:29:01,520
Speaker 10: or denying this problem. Some some on the right have

2839
02:29:01,640 --> 02:29:04,120
Speaker 10: like have skipped over the whole part where they've been

2840
02:29:04,160 --> 02:29:06,440
Speaker 10: wrong for so many years and are going to start

2841
02:29:06,480 --> 02:29:10,800
Speaker 10: up applying extremely authoritarian and like nationalist solutions to this.

2842
02:29:12,080 --> 02:29:15,640
Speaker 10: Others are just doubling down on denial because facing the

2843
02:29:15,680 --> 02:29:19,160
Speaker 10: facts of the horrible situation we're in is more and

2844
02:29:19,240 --> 02:29:22,000
Speaker 10: more like frightening. It's it's it's harder to admit that

2845
02:29:22,040 --> 02:29:27,800
Speaker 10: you're wrong and realize the terribleness of the situation of

2846
02:29:27,959 --> 02:29:31,000
Speaker 10: the most recent example of this is I've been checking

2847
02:29:31,000 --> 02:29:34,520
Speaker 10: on the replies to to CTV News, which is one

2848
02:29:34,560 --> 02:29:38,400
Speaker 10: of the biggest Canadian like television news stations. They've they've

2849
02:29:38,400 --> 02:29:41,480
Speaker 10: put out a few stories about how July is the

2850
02:29:41,480 --> 02:29:45,680
Speaker 10: hottest month, and the in the replies to this story,

2851
02:29:45,720 --> 02:29:50,400
Speaker 10: it's there's just a shock and honestly shocking amount of

2852
02:29:50,400 --> 02:29:55,280
Speaker 10: of pure like flippant denial of what's going on. And

2853
02:29:55,280 --> 02:29:58,959
Speaker 10: this has been an increasing problem in Canada. And it's

2854
02:29:59,120 --> 02:30:02,520
Speaker 10: it's which is ironic because actually Canada's economy is probably

2855
02:30:02,520 --> 02:30:05,280
Speaker 10: going to grow during climate change because they're going to

2856
02:30:05,360 --> 02:30:08,640
Speaker 10: take over a whole bunch of agricultural production from the States.

2857
02:30:09,280 --> 02:30:11,920
Speaker 10: They're actually going to become a much bigger economic player.

2858
02:30:12,280 --> 02:30:15,640
Speaker 10: But the amount of just pure denial that that that

2859
02:30:15,680 --> 02:30:18,440
Speaker 10: we're that we're seeing in Canada and we're seeing get

2860
02:30:18,480 --> 02:30:23,320
Speaker 10: like increased is extremely worrying. Yeah, and it's one of

2861
02:30:23,360 --> 02:30:25,080
Speaker 10: those things that's really hard to deal with. Like it

2862
02:30:25,360 --> 02:30:27,280
Speaker 10: it's also something I talked about it in my hyper

2863
02:30:27,280 --> 02:30:30,280
Speaker 10: object episode. But like it's like it's the same thing

2864
02:30:30,280 --> 02:30:32,920
Speaker 10: if someone's like in QAnon, you can't like you can't

2865
02:30:33,000 --> 02:30:35,400
Speaker 10: like out logic them from qan on. You have to

2866
02:30:35,480 --> 02:30:37,120
Speaker 10: you have to, you have to tell a better story.

2867
02:30:38,560 --> 02:30:40,840
Speaker 3: So this is you need a solid place to stand,

2868
02:30:41,080 --> 02:30:43,040
Speaker 3: like before you can push someone, if you see what

2869
02:30:43,080 --> 02:30:43,360
Speaker 3: I mean.

2870
02:30:43,640 --> 02:30:46,039
Speaker 10: Yeah, but like I don't know's it's just been it's

2871
02:30:46,080 --> 02:30:47,840
Speaker 10: been concerning because I've been seeing a whole bunch of

2872
02:30:47,879 --> 02:30:49,360
Speaker 10: a whole bunch of these things about how this is the

2873
02:30:49,400 --> 02:30:53,920
Speaker 10: hottest month in one hundred and twenty thousand years. And yeah,

2874
02:30:53,959 --> 02:30:57,119
Speaker 10: that is an a that is a like a horrifying

2875
02:30:57,440 --> 02:31:00,160
Speaker 10: thing to learn and you can like look at know

2876
02:31:00,240 --> 02:31:03,400
Speaker 10: what what the sources for this are. But the fact

2877
02:31:03,480 --> 02:31:07,520
Speaker 10: that so many of us are just just denying this

2878
02:31:07,680 --> 02:31:10,720
Speaker 10: is that like as you like you can go outside

2879
02:31:10,760 --> 02:31:12,720
Speaker 10: and feel it as well, like it's like it's and

2880
02:31:12,959 --> 02:31:15,000
Speaker 10: that's not how climate works all the time. But like

2881
02:31:15,760 --> 02:31:18,920
Speaker 10: I've certainly I think many of us have have felt

2882
02:31:19,080 --> 02:31:22,840
Speaker 10: the effects of this. And also like the death numbers

2883
02:31:22,879 --> 02:31:26,240
Speaker 10: can't lie either. Yeah.

2884
02:31:26,360 --> 02:31:29,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, And like I just got back from a trip

2885
02:31:29,320 --> 02:31:31,920
Speaker 3: which will be a podcast soon to the Marshall Islands,

2886
02:31:31,959 --> 02:31:36,400
Speaker 3: where it is extremely evident that sea levels are rising

2887
02:31:36,440 --> 02:31:39,119
Speaker 3: and if they continue to rise they're rising, then these

2888
02:31:39,120 --> 02:31:41,920
Speaker 3: places will be uninhabitable within the lifetime, so people who

2889
02:31:41,920 --> 02:31:47,160
Speaker 3: are alive today, And it's it's very odd to or

2890
02:31:47,240 --> 02:31:49,720
Speaker 3: very sort of discordant to see that. And then you

2891
02:31:49,879 --> 02:31:52,720
Speaker 3: log on when you get home and see someone being like, oh,

2892
02:31:52,760 --> 02:31:55,400
Speaker 3: it's natural variation, or you know, like oh, it's snowed

2893
02:31:55,480 --> 02:31:59,280
Speaker 3: last winter, or you know some something which shows like

2894
02:31:59,320 --> 02:32:03,080
Speaker 3: a name incomplete understanding, but still like just a knee

2895
02:32:03,160 --> 02:32:08,760
Speaker 3: jerk rejection of of like all the evidence we have

2896
02:32:08,840 --> 02:32:12,640
Speaker 3: that the climate is changing and it's it's not coming back.

2897
02:32:13,040 --> 02:32:16,280
Speaker 6: But I find myself the same that I have that

2898
02:32:16,400 --> 02:32:21,879
Speaker 6: same feelings sometimes when I see people refuse to engage

2899
02:32:21,879 --> 02:32:24,600
Speaker 6: with solutions, even with people who just are like, sure,

2900
02:32:25,000 --> 02:32:29,040
Speaker 6: oh that's real. There's nothing we can do about it,

2901
02:32:29,600 --> 02:32:33,360
Speaker 6: so we're not gonna try. Like feels very like and

2902
02:32:33,440 --> 02:32:36,160
Speaker 6: I don't mean like, I don't even mean a specific

2903
02:32:36,200 --> 02:32:38,120
Speaker 6: way of trying. I don't mean everyone has to go

2904
02:32:38,240 --> 02:32:41,640
Speaker 6: get arrested gluing themselves to famous things, or everyone needs

2905
02:32:41,640 --> 02:32:45,640
Speaker 6: to go set things on fire, everyone needs to only

2906
02:32:45,680 --> 02:32:48,760
Speaker 6: focus on growing food or like. But just when I

2907
02:32:48,800 --> 02:32:53,800
Speaker 6: see people like just being like, well, there's nothing, so

2908
02:32:53,920 --> 02:32:58,240
Speaker 6: I'm just gonna not take it into account in my

2909
02:32:58,320 --> 02:33:00,560
Speaker 6: decision making. I'm like, even if you're just vision making this,

2910
02:33:00,720 --> 02:33:02,600
Speaker 6: like like I made the decision to move near my

2911
02:33:02,640 --> 02:33:05,680
Speaker 6: family because a climate change. I didn't move to where

2912
02:33:05,720 --> 02:33:07,840
Speaker 6: the climate is going to be magically stable. I move

2913
02:33:07,920 --> 02:33:12,840
Speaker 6: to where I can spend more time with people I

2914
02:33:12,879 --> 02:33:14,440
Speaker 6: love and be in a better position to take care

2915
02:33:14,480 --> 02:33:17,400
Speaker 6: of them, you know, Like I just I feel so

2916
02:33:17,520 --> 02:33:21,120
Speaker 6: like I don't know, it was whatever.

2917
02:33:21,800 --> 02:33:27,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, no it is. And it's very difficult to

2918
02:33:27,160 --> 02:33:31,000
Speaker 3: see people just sort of fiddle as a Titanic scene,

2919
02:33:31,000 --> 02:33:31,280
Speaker 3: I mean.

2920
02:33:31,200 --> 02:33:34,720
Speaker 10: Really shutting down is the is one of the easiest

2921
02:33:34,760 --> 02:33:38,560
Speaker 10: reactions to stress and ignoring both both the both like

2922
02:33:38,879 --> 02:33:42,040
Speaker 10: the like the like the v admitt like denial of this.

2923
02:33:42,280 --> 02:33:44,360
Speaker 10: As things are obviously getting more and more intense, the

2924
02:33:44,800 --> 02:33:46,880
Speaker 10: denial gets more and more intense. But so is like

2925
02:33:47,320 --> 02:33:49,760
Speaker 10: the types of like the type of dumerism that leads

2926
02:33:49,760 --> 02:33:51,520
Speaker 10: you just to like checking out of being like, oh

2927
02:33:51,520 --> 02:33:53,120
Speaker 10: this is so bad, just there's nothing I can do,

2928
02:33:53,560 --> 02:33:56,720
Speaker 10: so I'm just going to completely ignore this. And then

2929
02:33:56,800 --> 02:33:59,600
Speaker 10: that's that's also another way of just like sectioning off

2930
02:33:59,600 --> 02:34:02,160
Speaker 10: this party your brain so it doesn't actually impact you.

2931
02:34:02,600 --> 02:34:06,000
Speaker 6: It's it's functionally quite the same. And I can't blame

2932
02:34:06,040 --> 02:34:08,160
Speaker 6: people for it. And that's what I think. People often

2933
02:34:08,200 --> 02:34:09,920
Speaker 6: think that I am judging for them for that, and

2934
02:34:09,959 --> 02:34:13,080
Speaker 6: I'm not. I just feel like i'm it's just it's

2935
02:34:13,120 --> 02:34:14,800
Speaker 6: hard to engage with sometimes.

2936
02:34:15,280 --> 02:34:18,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, But I think a good point to end is like,

2937
02:34:18,920 --> 02:34:21,320
Speaker 3: maybe the best prep you can do for climate change

2938
02:34:21,360 --> 02:34:27,600
Speaker 3: is not like buying a bigger air conditioner or moving

2939
02:34:27,760 --> 02:34:30,320
Speaker 3: to somewhere where you think there is a better chance

2940
02:34:30,480 --> 02:34:32,800
Speaker 3: that you personally as an individual will be better, but

2941
02:34:32,879 --> 02:34:35,360
Speaker 3: it's building a community that can be resilient and that

2942
02:34:35,520 --> 02:34:39,959
Speaker 3: can like weather the storm. And like having seen a

2943
02:34:40,040 --> 02:34:44,080
Speaker 3: country which is losing its very minimal amount of land

2944
02:34:44,080 --> 02:34:46,800
Speaker 3: to climate change and how communities have come together to

2945
02:34:46,959 --> 02:34:50,879
Speaker 3: protect each other during that, it's kind of reinforced to

2946
02:34:50,920 --> 02:34:54,760
Speaker 3: me how important community is as opposed to stuff.

2947
02:34:55,000 --> 02:34:55,600
Speaker 4: Yeah.

2948
02:34:55,640 --> 02:35:00,000
Speaker 6: Absolutely, Also with communities you can get more stuff.

2949
02:35:02,280 --> 02:35:03,360
Speaker 3: You can make your own stuf.

2950
02:35:03,360 --> 02:35:06,080
Speaker 6: That's true, seize the means of production. But not for

2951
02:35:06,280 --> 02:35:09,400
Speaker 6: the pure Marxist point of view, but from the I

2952
02:35:09,520 --> 02:35:11,360
Speaker 6: like joking, but I'm actually like, this is what people

2953
02:35:11,360 --> 02:35:16,320
Speaker 6: should be preparing to do. Like, yeah, a climate revolution

2954
02:35:16,400 --> 02:35:18,200
Speaker 6: that's less about like, oh, we're going to put in

2955
02:35:18,680 --> 02:35:20,840
Speaker 6: someone smart in charge's going to fix everything and more

2956
02:35:20,840 --> 02:35:24,560
Speaker 6: a climate revolution that's like we're going to create bottom

2957
02:35:24,600 --> 02:35:28,440
Speaker 6: up solutions and not let people stop us from creating

2958
02:35:28,440 --> 02:35:30,480
Speaker 6: bottom up solutions.

2959
02:35:31,400 --> 02:35:33,960
Speaker 3: Yes, that would be good. It would be a good revolution.

2960
02:35:34,040 --> 02:35:36,039
Speaker 3: Consider implementing that.

2961
02:35:52,280 --> 02:35:57,039
Speaker 2: It's it could happen here the podcast where things happen

2962
02:35:57,120 --> 02:36:00,840
Speaker 2: and sometimes things maybe don't happen. And once again the

2963
02:36:00,879 --> 02:36:05,520
Speaker 2: thing maybe not happening is the strike at UPS. Yeah,

2964
02:36:05,520 --> 02:36:09,879
Speaker 2: so stuff has happened since we lash recorded. And also

2965
02:36:10,840 --> 02:36:12,240
Speaker 2: there was the thing that happened to the middle of

2966
02:36:12,280 --> 02:36:15,000
Speaker 2: the recording, which was the announcement of the tentative agreement,

2967
02:36:15,440 --> 02:36:18,199
Speaker 2: and so to talk more about what's been happening since

2968
02:36:18,440 --> 02:36:20,640
Speaker 2: and what's sort of in this deal because we now

2969
02:36:20,680 --> 02:36:23,800
Speaker 2: know more details about it is once again Rehee Smith

2970
02:36:23,840 --> 02:36:26,880
Speaker 2: and Oliver Rose, who are too rank and file UPS

2971
02:36:26,920 --> 02:36:30,160
Speaker 2: teamsters and once again they do not represent the union,

2972
02:36:30,200 --> 02:36:33,760
Speaker 2: are speaking as individuals, et cetera, et cetera. Yeah, but

2973
02:36:33,959 --> 02:36:34,600
Speaker 2: welcome back.

2974
02:36:35,640 --> 02:36:36,800
Speaker 9: Yeah, I'm good to be back.

2975
02:36:37,240 --> 02:36:38,600
Speaker 5: Yeah, thanks for having us on again.

2976
02:36:39,400 --> 02:36:41,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm glad, I'm happy to talk to you. So

2977
02:36:42,080 --> 02:36:45,320
Speaker 2: all right, so last last time, we found out in

2978
02:36:45,360 --> 02:36:48,640
Speaker 2: the middle of recording that there is a deal struck,

2979
02:36:48,680 --> 02:36:50,600
Speaker 2: and I guess I wanted to start by talking a

2980
02:36:50,640 --> 02:36:53,920
Speaker 2: bit about what's been happening since then and what the

2981
02:36:54,000 --> 02:36:55,960
Speaker 2: sort of what sort of organizing has been happening, what

2982
02:36:56,480 --> 02:36:58,520
Speaker 2: the sort of union bureaucracy has been doing.

2983
02:36:59,160 --> 02:37:04,160
Speaker 9: Yeah, it's uh, well, it's been kind of kind of crazy. Basically,

2984
02:37:04,200 --> 02:37:06,879
Speaker 9: you know, we had that highlight reel that we all got,

2985
02:37:07,640 --> 02:37:10,280
Speaker 9: and then it was a bit before we got the

2986
02:37:10,400 --> 02:37:15,280
Speaker 9: actual contract, at least like a few days. And since then,

2987
02:37:15,400 --> 02:37:19,080
Speaker 9: you know, you're in union bureaucracy has been promoting uh

2988
02:37:19,120 --> 02:37:21,879
Speaker 9: these contract Q and A sessions and stuff like that,

2989
02:37:21,920 --> 02:37:24,920
Speaker 9: and they had three of them last Sunday and one

2990
02:37:24,959 --> 02:37:31,040
Speaker 9: of them this Monday, and voting has opened up. Uh yeah,

2991
02:37:31,120 --> 02:37:35,760
Speaker 9: it's it's been a bit been a bit uh crazy feeling,

2992
02:37:35,879 --> 02:37:40,160
Speaker 9: to be honest. Uh yeah, yeah, it's been wild.

2993
02:37:41,680 --> 02:37:43,840
Speaker 5: Yeah. Of course, you know, while we're recording, you know,

2994
02:37:43,879 --> 02:37:47,320
Speaker 5: we get the tenet of agreement, uh drop, and you

2995
02:37:47,320 --> 02:37:50,320
Speaker 5: know it's framed us you know, this big historic uh

2996
02:37:50,400 --> 02:37:53,480
Speaker 5: you know, this game changer. So and you know, of

2997
02:37:53,480 --> 02:37:56,039
Speaker 5: course for the first day, we just had what was

2998
02:37:56,080 --> 02:37:59,680
Speaker 5: in the press release. Even some of that language was

2999
02:37:59,720 --> 02:38:02,720
Speaker 5: a little little bit confusing. Wasn't until Team Series for

3000
02:38:02,840 --> 02:38:05,800
Speaker 5: a Democratic Union also had their own like press release

3001
02:38:06,200 --> 02:38:09,760
Speaker 5: clarified some language, and then you know we're kind of

3002
02:38:09,800 --> 02:38:11,840
Speaker 5: just like, okay, we'll get you know, we're told we'll

3003
02:38:11,879 --> 02:38:15,520
Speaker 5: be getting the kind of agreement language next week and

3004
02:38:15,879 --> 02:38:18,600
Speaker 5: chance to you know, debrief with the local but really

3005
02:38:18,640 --> 02:38:21,120
Speaker 5: like the the I think it was the following day

3006
02:38:21,680 --> 02:38:24,240
Speaker 5: the actual language comes out, you know, and some of

3007
02:38:24,240 --> 02:38:28,000
Speaker 5: the things where it's you know, there's like a promise

3008
02:38:28,080 --> 02:38:31,879
Speaker 5: with the uh all the general wage increases going on

3009
02:38:31,920 --> 02:38:35,280
Speaker 5: top of those market rate adjustments we're speaking about, which

3010
02:38:35,280 --> 02:38:39,920
Speaker 5: are basically wages that are that ups can you know

3011
02:38:40,120 --> 02:38:43,520
Speaker 5: add or even remove that's not actually tied to the

3012
02:38:43,560 --> 02:38:47,080
Speaker 5: contract wages and you know, so one of the things was, yeah,

3013
02:38:47,080 --> 02:38:49,960
Speaker 5: getting those raises on top, but there was no contract

3014
02:38:50,080 --> 02:38:53,520
Speaker 5: language you know in there, which definitely caused I think

3015
02:38:53,560 --> 02:38:56,840
Speaker 5: a lot of confusion concern among rank and file members.

3016
02:38:58,200 --> 02:39:02,080
Speaker 5: And it actually took one of the locals, you know,

3017
02:39:02,120 --> 02:39:07,080
Speaker 5: having a no endorsement before we even saw this memorandum

3018
02:39:07,120 --> 02:39:11,879
Speaker 5: of understanding between the company and the IBT, you know,

3019
02:39:11,959 --> 02:39:15,400
Speaker 5: guaranteeing this was going to happen, you know, that we

3020
02:39:15,440 --> 02:39:19,080
Speaker 5: would be getting those raises on top. It was just

3021
02:39:19,160 --> 02:39:21,200
Speaker 5: kind of one of those things where you know, there

3022
02:39:21,240 --> 02:39:25,959
Speaker 5: was this kind of really vague language that was used

3023
02:39:26,000 --> 02:39:29,039
Speaker 5: and I think definitely caused you know, people to not

3024
02:39:29,120 --> 02:39:33,080
Speaker 5: really fully understand, you know, what was going on. Specially

3025
02:39:33,120 --> 02:39:38,200
Speaker 5: I think it was about seventy five percent of part

3026
02:39:38,200 --> 02:39:42,760
Speaker 5: timers are currently have a market rate adjustment. You know,

3027
02:39:42,760 --> 02:39:45,000
Speaker 5: that's kind of a very big portion of the workforce.

3028
02:39:46,120 --> 02:39:47,840
Speaker 9: Yeah, it was a I'm gonna be honest, it was

3029
02:39:47,879 --> 02:39:49,920
Speaker 9: a real it was kind of a real calm shit

3030
02:39:50,040 --> 02:39:57,400
Speaker 9: show from from union leadership. Releasing the information in the

3031
02:39:57,400 --> 02:40:00,760
Speaker 9: way they did it absolutely led to a lot of

3032
02:40:01,120 --> 02:40:05,440
Speaker 9: misunderstandings about what was in the contract, which you know,

3033
02:40:05,560 --> 02:40:09,720
Speaker 9: kind of spread like wildfire. And the union response to

3034
02:40:09,840 --> 02:40:13,120
Speaker 9: what I think is a lot of just genuine misunderstanding

3035
02:40:14,120 --> 02:40:19,480
Speaker 9: is to just label it all as misinformation from people

3036
02:40:19,480 --> 02:40:23,240
Speaker 9: that have, you know, their their own agendas, right, and

3037
02:40:23,920 --> 02:40:26,760
Speaker 9: you can't you can't like trust those people. You can

3038
02:40:26,800 --> 02:40:32,720
Speaker 9: only trust what's what's coming from the union. And Yeah,

3039
02:40:32,760 --> 02:40:36,960
Speaker 9: that definitely didn't inspire trust from the people that were

3040
02:40:37,360 --> 02:40:41,600
Speaker 9: leaning no, because in between a lot of these like

3041
02:40:42,000 --> 02:40:44,440
Speaker 9: and there is definitely was some misunderstanding about what was

3042
02:40:44,480 --> 02:40:46,879
Speaker 9: initially into the in the contract but there is also

3043
02:40:47,040 --> 02:40:49,800
Speaker 9: genuine critique about certain things that are in the contract, right,

3044
02:40:50,680 --> 02:40:55,360
Speaker 9: and so instead of like substantly, substantively like looking at

3045
02:40:55,360 --> 02:40:58,440
Speaker 9: these genuine critiques, we're all forced in the situation of

3046
02:40:58,480 --> 02:41:03,560
Speaker 9: sorting out what is quote unquote misinformation or you know,

3047
02:41:04,360 --> 02:41:08,520
Speaker 9: more accurately, people not understanding legalese and also a bad

3048
02:41:08,600 --> 02:41:11,560
Speaker 9: role out of information versus okay, but what is in

3049
02:41:11,600 --> 02:41:17,280
Speaker 9: the contract that really needs improvement? And instead of like

3050
02:41:17,360 --> 02:41:20,520
Speaker 9: substantively getting into the ladder, it's just been a pure

3051
02:41:20,520 --> 02:41:24,480
Speaker 9: focus on the former. And yeah, it's it's been it's

3052
02:41:24,520 --> 02:41:28,400
Speaker 9: been kind of tense. Uh, it seems like, you know,

3053
02:41:28,680 --> 02:41:31,600
Speaker 9: it seems like there's a real mix, it's real kind

3054
02:41:31,600 --> 02:41:35,320
Speaker 9: of even even uh, how rank and vile members are

3055
02:41:35,360 --> 02:41:38,160
Speaker 9: responding to this contract. You know, some have kind of

3056
02:41:38,800 --> 02:41:41,879
Speaker 9: bought in full sale that this is a historic contract,

3057
02:41:43,200 --> 02:41:46,360
Speaker 9: and others, you know, you know, such as myself, like,

3058
02:41:47,200 --> 02:41:50,720
Speaker 9: you know, there's still things in this contract that to

3059
02:41:50,800 --> 02:41:54,760
Speaker 9: me are unacceptable and it's going to be interesting to

3060
02:41:54,840 --> 02:41:56,160
Speaker 9: see where it goes.

3061
02:41:57,080 --> 02:41:59,040
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, you know, I kind of feel like

3062
02:41:59,080 --> 02:42:01,480
Speaker 5: it's hard to get a gauge of where everyone's at,

3063
02:42:01,520 --> 02:42:03,640
Speaker 5: and of course I only have the you know, kind

3064
02:42:03,640 --> 02:42:09,039
Speaker 5: of my local experience in my specific shift, you know, definitely, yeah,

3065
02:42:09,200 --> 02:42:11,320
Speaker 5: I haven't I haven't come across you know, someone I

3066
02:42:11,360 --> 02:42:13,680
Speaker 5: work with yet, you know who's totally just like, yeah,

3067
02:42:13,680 --> 02:42:16,760
Speaker 5: this is superhistoric, this is you know, game changing.

3068
02:42:17,080 --> 02:42:17,440
Speaker 3: Uh.

3069
02:42:17,680 --> 02:42:20,440
Speaker 5: You know, as they were saying, or the Union was saying,

3070
02:42:21,800 --> 02:42:24,240
Speaker 5: a lot of people, you know, especially long timers, like yeah,

3071
02:42:24,280 --> 02:42:26,240
Speaker 5: this is a really good contract with you know, the

3072
02:42:26,240 --> 02:42:29,600
Speaker 5: best I've seen, uh, you know, in my days here.

3073
02:42:30,520 --> 02:42:32,520
Speaker 5: And then there's you know, there's been another few other

3074
02:42:32,520 --> 02:42:35,320
Speaker 5: people who are like, yeah, I'm gonna vote yes, but

3075
02:42:36,040 --> 02:42:39,320
Speaker 5: it really doesn't really seem like you know, it's matching,

3076
02:42:40,040 --> 02:42:44,800
Speaker 5: you know, the framing of you know, this historic contract.

3077
02:42:46,080 --> 02:42:48,320
Speaker 5: And then also know there's yeah, I mean other people

3078
02:42:48,320 --> 02:42:50,959
Speaker 5: who are just kind of like, no, this seems I

3079
02:42:50,959 --> 02:42:52,760
Speaker 5: mean I was kind of like too little, too late,

3080
02:42:53,240 --> 02:42:58,199
Speaker 5: Like the games aren't quite there. Yeah, it's there's there's raises.

3081
02:42:59,000 --> 02:43:01,280
Speaker 5: They're also kind of done in weird way where they're

3082
02:43:01,520 --> 02:43:03,400
Speaker 5: more or less like kind of proNT loaded towards the

3083
02:43:03,680 --> 02:43:06,320
Speaker 5: first and last year, and everything in the middle is

3084
02:43:06,320 --> 02:43:10,240
Speaker 5: a lot lower to the point actually where and it

3085
02:43:10,240 --> 02:43:12,560
Speaker 5: gets confusing because everyone's kind of at a different rate

3086
02:43:12,600 --> 02:43:16,040
Speaker 5: with those market rate adjustments. You know, the more you're

3087
02:43:16,080 --> 02:43:20,720
Speaker 5: making from you know, that supplemental pay, the worse this

3088
02:43:20,800 --> 02:43:23,480
Speaker 5: is going to keep with inflation to the point where

3089
02:43:23,480 --> 02:43:26,440
Speaker 5: it's kind of you're only actually going to be just

3090
02:43:26,520 --> 02:43:31,520
Speaker 5: above inflation towards the end of the contract. Especially one

3091
02:43:31,560 --> 02:43:33,760
Speaker 5: of the definitely one of the weaker things in the

3092
02:43:33,840 --> 02:43:38,359
Speaker 5: contract is all new hires or current people without seniority

3093
02:43:38,920 --> 02:43:40,920
Speaker 5: are going to be on a different tier. And this

3094
02:43:40,959 --> 02:43:46,200
Speaker 5: is where the part timer inside warehouse positions, so you know,

3095
02:43:46,480 --> 02:43:50,280
Speaker 5: the uh yeah, so if you have seniority, it's minimum

3096
02:43:50,360 --> 02:43:53,040
Speaker 5: of twenty one an hour to start, and that goes

3097
02:43:53,080 --> 02:43:57,520
Speaker 5: up to twenty five seventy five an hour versus those

3098
02:43:57,640 --> 02:43:59,720
Speaker 5: new hires or no seniority employees are going to be

3099
02:43:59,720 --> 02:44:02,960
Speaker 5: at one with the progression to twenty three the fifty

3100
02:44:03,040 --> 02:44:09,039
Speaker 5: cent raises, and of course, uh you know, once you

3101
02:44:09,080 --> 02:44:11,840
Speaker 5: know tack on the average you know a little bit

3102
02:44:11,879 --> 02:44:15,840
Speaker 5: over three percent inflation, you know can kind of quickly see, uh,

3103
02:44:16,120 --> 02:44:18,199
Speaker 5: it's those new members who are getting the worst part

3104
02:44:18,320 --> 02:44:18,840
Speaker 5: of the deal.

3105
02:44:19,640 --> 02:44:23,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, And that comes to I think another thing that

3106
02:44:23,640 --> 02:44:27,039
Speaker 2: is like I don't know so, but when this was

3107
02:44:27,040 --> 02:44:29,800
Speaker 2: all first happening and I've seen this like a lot

3108
02:44:30,320 --> 02:44:32,720
Speaker 2: from people talking about this is people talking about this

3109
02:44:32,840 --> 02:44:35,240
Speaker 2: is like a contract that like ends the tier systems,

3110
02:44:35,240 --> 02:44:37,760
Speaker 2: and that just like doesn't seem to be true at all.

3111
02:44:38,840 --> 02:44:42,119
Speaker 5: Yeah, and so one of the things, So there's the yeah,

3112
02:44:42,160 --> 02:44:44,240
Speaker 5: I believe we spoke to this last time. The two

3113
02:44:44,320 --> 02:44:46,680
Speaker 5: two four is what it's called, where it's a combo

3114
02:44:47,080 --> 02:44:51,400
Speaker 5: driver and inside warehouse position and most of the time,

3115
02:44:51,560 --> 02:44:54,360
Speaker 5: you know, they were just more or less practically full

3116
02:44:54,400 --> 02:44:57,120
Speaker 5: time drivers, except for a few times where you know

3117
02:44:57,520 --> 02:45:00,440
Speaker 5: they es'ch like earlier this year they tried to transition

3118
02:45:00,520 --> 02:45:04,400
Speaker 5: them to mostly like inside full time. But so the

3119
02:45:04,440 --> 02:45:06,800
Speaker 5: thing is, yeah, those will all get you know, converted

3120
02:45:06,840 --> 02:45:12,080
Speaker 5: to the package car drivers with that, I believe, with

3121
02:45:12,360 --> 02:45:14,360
Speaker 5: that raid or at least very similar.

3122
02:45:14,840 --> 02:45:15,080
Speaker 1: Yeah.

3123
02:45:15,160 --> 02:45:17,600
Speaker 9: Yeah, so we did get rid of the twenty two fours,

3124
02:45:18,920 --> 02:45:22,280
Speaker 9: and that was the big promise, you know, going into

3125
02:45:22,320 --> 02:45:25,920
Speaker 9: this contract fight. But yeah, no, there are definitely still

3126
02:45:26,160 --> 02:45:31,360
Speaker 9: remaining tiers within ups. You know, there's this new one

3127
02:45:31,400 --> 02:45:34,280
Speaker 9: that's been created, which is the you know, the tier

3128
02:45:34,320 --> 02:45:37,440
Speaker 9: between the what they call the unborn. That's how they

3129
02:45:37,480 --> 02:45:40,440
Speaker 9: refer to people that have not yet been hired by

3130
02:45:40,560 --> 02:45:44,120
Speaker 9: ups that have like stipulations in the contract, right, Yeah,

3131
02:45:44,120 --> 02:45:46,600
Speaker 9: they call them the unborn. It's it's kind of funny.

3132
02:45:47,760 --> 02:45:50,039
Speaker 9: And you know, their whole thing is that they just

3133
02:45:50,080 --> 02:45:52,640
Speaker 9: have a completely different wage progression than the rest of

3134
02:45:52,720 --> 02:45:57,160
Speaker 9: us do. But in addition to that tier which was introduced,

3135
02:45:57,720 --> 02:46:01,680
Speaker 9: you know, there are tiers elsewhere. Sometimes it's a tier

3136
02:46:01,760 --> 02:46:04,880
Speaker 9: between the hubs, like all of the hubs are making

3137
02:46:04,920 --> 02:46:08,720
Speaker 9: different MRAs and stuff like that. But additionally, there are

3138
02:46:08,760 --> 02:46:12,279
Speaker 9: some hubs that don't have a daily guarantee of hours

3139
02:46:12,440 --> 02:46:16,160
Speaker 9: like regular hubs do, like for instance, air hubs. Right,

3140
02:46:18,080 --> 02:46:22,200
Speaker 9: so like that's another basically another tier, because it's you know,

3141
02:46:22,280 --> 02:46:26,600
Speaker 9: people doing the same work but not guaranteed the same things.

3142
02:46:28,320 --> 02:46:32,720
Speaker 9: And yeah, yeah, so there's definitely tiers remaining in this

3143
02:46:32,879 --> 02:46:38,720
Speaker 9: contract for sure, and it's really unfortunate to see that

3144
02:46:38,920 --> 02:46:42,360
Speaker 9: the one existing didn't get addressed and that they just

3145
02:46:42,400 --> 02:46:45,359
Speaker 9: created a whole new one, even though they are adamantly

3146
02:46:46,000 --> 02:46:47,400
Speaker 9: insisting it is not a tier.

3147
02:46:48,720 --> 02:46:50,840
Speaker 5: Yeah, and that's you know, and this goes back to,

3148
02:46:51,080 --> 02:46:54,600
Speaker 5: I believe the nineteen eighty two contract, which is when

3149
02:46:55,160 --> 02:46:59,280
Speaker 5: the full time and part time pay was changed to

3150
02:46:59,360 --> 02:47:03,640
Speaker 5: different different tiers, with part time getting like four dollars

3151
02:47:03,720 --> 02:47:07,920
Speaker 5: less than full time, which was I think twelve twelve

3152
02:47:08,160 --> 02:47:11,120
Speaker 5: an hour back in eighty two versus eight an hour

3153
02:47:11,160 --> 02:47:14,040
Speaker 5: for the part timers, you know, so that that's continued,

3154
02:47:14,160 --> 02:47:16,600
Speaker 5: you know, across all these decades. And so now with

3155
02:47:16,680 --> 02:47:23,520
Speaker 5: the current contract, provided you're getting paid the contract minimums, Yeah,

3156
02:47:23,520 --> 02:47:27,640
Speaker 5: you're looking at full time inside warehouse, their top rate

3157
02:47:28,600 --> 02:47:32,080
Speaker 5: going to thirty six dollars an hour, I believe, and

3158
02:47:32,120 --> 02:47:37,320
Speaker 5: then you're gonna have part timers who have seniority just

3159
02:47:37,440 --> 02:47:39,959
Speaker 5: below twenty six an hour, and then you're gonna have

3160
02:47:40,000 --> 02:47:42,640
Speaker 5: those people who weren't quite in the door yet at

3161
02:47:42,640 --> 02:47:47,640
Speaker 5: twenty three. And of course, you know it's doing more

3162
02:47:47,720 --> 02:47:50,359
Speaker 5: or less the you know, the same work the inside.

3163
02:47:50,640 --> 02:47:54,680
Speaker 5: You know, you're doing your loading, unloading, sorting, the other

3164
02:47:54,920 --> 02:47:58,640
Speaker 5: you know, various positions there. And of course, you know,

3165
02:47:58,680 --> 02:48:01,200
Speaker 5: one of the things I've seen, you know, particularly online,

3166
02:48:01,240 --> 02:48:04,080
Speaker 5: I haven't heard this on the shop floor. It's just like, oh, well,

3167
02:48:04,280 --> 02:48:06,400
Speaker 5: you know they're working more, so of course they're going

3168
02:48:06,480 --> 02:48:08,560
Speaker 5: to get paid more. But it's like, okay, well, yeah,

3169
02:48:09,440 --> 02:48:11,920
Speaker 5: they have more hours, so they would get more paid,

3170
02:48:11,920 --> 02:48:13,960
Speaker 5: but that doesn't mean that they should be at a

3171
02:48:14,040 --> 02:48:17,800
Speaker 5: higher hourly rate. Yeah, there's going to be other things too,

3172
02:48:17,840 --> 02:48:20,480
Speaker 5: like the pension of CRUL and you know, vacation time

3173
02:48:20,480 --> 02:48:22,800
Speaker 5: where you're working more, you're going to get more of

3174
02:48:22,800 --> 02:48:26,400
Speaker 5: that too. It's kind of has its own reward. There's

3175
02:48:26,600 --> 02:48:30,000
Speaker 5: really no reason to have, you know, like a ten

3176
02:48:30,080 --> 02:48:34,039
Speaker 5: dollars discrepancy for that type of works performed.

3177
02:48:36,520 --> 02:48:38,520
Speaker 1: Also, I was doing some quick math in the background,

3178
02:48:38,600 --> 02:48:39,840
Speaker 1: and the.

3179
02:48:41,720 --> 02:48:45,880
Speaker 2: Nineteen eighty two I wagees like thirty six dollars an

3180
02:48:45,879 --> 02:48:51,680
Speaker 2: hour and with inflation. Now, so that's FRAE. That's fine.

3181
02:48:51,720 --> 02:48:59,360
Speaker 9: Sorry, Yeah, I don't know. I think it's when I

3182
02:48:59,360 --> 02:49:03,400
Speaker 9: think about, you know, this union being touted as historic,

3183
02:49:03,520 --> 02:49:05,760
Speaker 9: I like actually think about, like what are the actual

3184
02:49:05,840 --> 02:49:08,720
Speaker 9: historic wins of the labor movement, And you know, I'm

3185
02:49:08,720 --> 02:49:11,199
Speaker 9: thinking about, like, you know, the right to a five

3186
02:49:11,280 --> 02:49:15,520
Speaker 9: day work week. Meanwhile, this historic contract, you know it

3187
02:49:15,680 --> 02:49:18,320
Speaker 9: ended six day punches, but that's that's not a new

3188
02:49:18,440 --> 02:49:21,920
Speaker 9: historical thing. That was something we lost and then regained

3189
02:49:21,959 --> 02:49:26,359
Speaker 9: with this contract. So it's you know, in my mind,

3190
02:49:26,600 --> 02:49:31,119
Speaker 9: it's not really breaking any barriers or like you know,

3191
02:49:31,240 --> 02:49:34,800
Speaker 9: blowing anyone's minds, you know, especially when we have Sean

3192
02:49:34,920 --> 02:49:40,080
Speaker 9: Faine of the UAWD, who is talking about, you know,

3193
02:49:40,120 --> 02:49:42,600
Speaker 9: one of their demands is a thirty two hour work week, right,

3194
02:49:42,879 --> 02:49:46,840
Speaker 9: Like he's he's advocating that every worker needs a forty

3195
02:49:46,840 --> 02:49:49,560
Speaker 9: percent increase in pay because the CEO got a forty

3196
02:49:49,560 --> 02:49:56,560
Speaker 9: percent increase in pay. And yeah, it's just yeah, our

3197
02:49:57,000 --> 02:50:00,200
Speaker 9: contract just you know, it isn't at that level by

3198
02:50:00,200 --> 02:50:00,760
Speaker 9: any means.

3199
02:50:01,080 --> 02:50:04,480
Speaker 5: When you s that word historic, you know, like I

3200
02:50:04,520 --> 02:50:07,320
Speaker 5: think there could be times where you can, you know,

3201
02:50:07,440 --> 02:50:10,680
Speaker 5: call something historic before it stands the test of time.

3202
02:50:11,760 --> 02:50:14,040
Speaker 5: But this is kind of like, Okay, this is kind

3203
02:50:14,080 --> 02:50:16,480
Speaker 5: of I feel like the contract, you know, you would

3204
02:50:16,480 --> 02:50:20,760
Speaker 5: expect a union to bargain. Maybe it's I mean partly

3205
02:50:20,800 --> 02:50:24,800
Speaker 5: it's historic because there just really hasn't been really any

3206
02:50:24,840 --> 02:50:29,320
Speaker 5: gains and so it's kind of like, Okay, you've got

3207
02:50:29,360 --> 02:50:34,840
Speaker 5: us wage increases. Isn't that kind of just like what

3208
02:50:34,920 --> 02:50:35,680
Speaker 5: you should be doing?

3209
02:50:38,240 --> 02:50:40,039
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I mean, I mean this is this has

3210
02:50:40,080 --> 02:50:43,000
Speaker 2: been there's been like this has been like the there's

3211
02:50:43,000 --> 02:50:46,720
Speaker 2: been a bunch of unions in the last like maybe

3212
02:50:46,760 --> 02:50:49,800
Speaker 2: like eight months who have like settled and been like

3213
02:50:49,800 --> 02:50:52,600
Speaker 2: we've gotten historic races, and it's like, I don't know,

3214
02:50:52,760 --> 02:50:55,240
Speaker 2: it's the thing that seems actually historic about it is

3215
02:50:55,320 --> 02:50:58,280
Speaker 2: essentially averting like averting this massive strikewave.

3216
02:50:58,920 --> 02:51:00,840
Speaker 5: Yeah, one of the things I want to add was,

3217
02:51:01,600 --> 02:51:05,120
Speaker 5: you know, especially with those combo positions, uh, you know,

3218
02:51:05,280 --> 02:51:08,440
Speaker 5: ending that tier. That was something that was introduced in

3219
02:51:08,480 --> 02:51:13,160
Speaker 5: the previous contract, which rank and file members voted down.

3220
02:51:13,800 --> 02:51:15,720
Speaker 5: It was a no vote, but it was just because

3221
02:51:15,760 --> 02:51:20,800
Speaker 5: of this uh you know, kind of obscure you know

3222
02:51:20,959 --> 02:51:24,760
Speaker 5: rule in the constitution where it's just like fifty percent

3223
02:51:24,840 --> 02:51:27,920
Speaker 5: of people don't vote, then it required the two thirds

3224
02:51:28,360 --> 02:51:31,840
Speaker 5: you know, no vote. So you know, that was just

3225
02:51:31,920 --> 02:51:36,240
Speaker 5: completely you know, over overruled by the union, like we're

3226
02:51:36,240 --> 02:51:39,680
Speaker 5: going to do this anyways, So kind of you know,

3227
02:51:39,760 --> 02:51:42,360
Speaker 5: it's good that we righted that wrong. You know, it's

3228
02:51:42,360 --> 02:51:44,400
Speaker 5: good to reduce a tier. Of course, I'm not going

3229
02:51:44,480 --> 02:51:47,760
Speaker 5: to knock that, but just kind of those things where

3230
02:51:47,760 --> 02:51:50,800
Speaker 5: it's like, yeah, but membership already didn't want that, or

3231
02:51:50,800 --> 02:51:51,279
Speaker 5: at least.

3232
02:51:52,840 --> 02:51:54,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, you guys, did you guys introduced this in the

3233
02:51:54,840 --> 02:51:58,680
Speaker 2: first place, like come on, yeah.

3234
02:51:58,760 --> 02:52:02,000
Speaker 9: Yeah. It's also worth note that the twenty two to

3235
02:52:02,000 --> 02:52:04,760
Speaker 9: four position, you know, it wasn't working for our members,

3236
02:52:04,760 --> 02:52:07,800
Speaker 9: but it also wasn't working for the company either. They

3237
02:52:07,800 --> 02:52:12,640
Speaker 9: were having significant trouble trying to fill all the shifts

3238
02:52:12,680 --> 02:52:16,680
Speaker 9: that were needed and required by the position, and to

3239
02:52:16,720 --> 02:52:19,160
Speaker 9: the point that workers ended up kind of being slotted

3240
02:52:19,200 --> 02:52:21,840
Speaker 9: into one or the other with like really bad schedules,

3241
02:52:21,879 --> 02:52:25,240
Speaker 9: and it wasn't It wasn't working for either, is the thing.

3242
02:52:26,879 --> 02:52:29,080
Speaker 9: So it is it's great that we got rid of it,

3243
02:52:29,680 --> 02:52:32,920
Speaker 9: but it seems like it was somewhat of an easy

3244
02:52:33,000 --> 02:52:39,800
Speaker 9: thing to win. It made mutual sense, right, and yeah, yeah,

3245
02:52:39,840 --> 02:52:45,080
Speaker 9: it's just there were you know, there were bigger there

3246
02:52:45,120 --> 02:52:47,320
Speaker 9: could have been bigger fights over other things in this

3247
02:52:47,360 --> 02:52:51,160
Speaker 9: contract that weren't pursued, right, So.

3248
02:52:53,840 --> 02:52:56,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that's that's the thing. From everything that

3249
02:52:56,200 --> 02:52:59,520
Speaker 2: I've seen from it, it seems like it seems like

3250
02:52:59,520 --> 02:53:01,280
Speaker 2: the goal of this contract is to get a contract

3251
02:53:01,280 --> 02:53:03,400
Speaker 2: that's like exactly good enough to get like fifty one

3252
02:53:03,440 --> 02:53:06,400
Speaker 2: percent of the vote in a contract to avoid UPS

3253
02:53:06,400 --> 02:53:09,640
Speaker 2: having to like actually deal with a contract that a

3254
02:53:09,680 --> 02:53:10,440
Speaker 2: strip would produce.

3255
02:53:11,040 --> 02:53:13,920
Speaker 9: Mm hm oh yeah, oh yeah.

3256
02:53:14,680 --> 02:53:17,440
Speaker 5: Yeah. It's kind of the I mean, whether I mean

3257
02:53:17,440 --> 02:53:19,840
Speaker 5: probably intentional where it's just like you know, it's like

3258
02:53:20,320 --> 02:53:24,039
Speaker 5: just good enough you know to maybe warrant like a

3259
02:53:24,160 --> 02:53:27,840
Speaker 5: yes vote, and especially i mean in context of you know,

3260
02:53:27,920 --> 02:53:32,800
Speaker 5: the last however many contracts, but it's kind of one

3261
02:53:32,800 --> 02:53:35,199
Speaker 5: of those things where it's like, okay, by comparison, it's good.

3262
02:53:35,440 --> 02:53:38,920
Speaker 5: But again, you know, I don't think it quite goes

3263
02:53:38,920 --> 02:53:42,200
Speaker 5: far enough either on the wage side, you know, on

3264
02:53:42,280 --> 02:53:45,360
Speaker 5: the on the wages or you know, especially one of

3265
02:53:45,360 --> 02:53:48,840
Speaker 5: the issues I've been focused on a lot is the

3266
02:53:48,879 --> 02:53:50,400
Speaker 5: heat protections.

3267
02:53:50,800 --> 02:53:53,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, can we can we talk about well specifically the

3268
02:53:53,360 --> 02:53:56,000
Speaker 2: heat protections, but then also kind of talk a bit

3269
02:53:56,040 --> 02:53:58,720
Speaker 2: about what's what is in the contract and what like

3270
02:53:58,800 --> 02:54:02,760
Speaker 2: isn't in the contract that should be Oh yeah, you

3271
02:54:02,760 --> 02:54:04,280
Speaker 2: can start with the heat production stuff.

3272
02:54:05,080 --> 02:54:07,920
Speaker 5: Yeah. So one of the things, so they'll be rolling

3273
02:54:08,000 --> 02:54:13,440
Speaker 5: out air conditioners in the the uh All trucks package

3274
02:54:13,480 --> 02:54:18,039
Speaker 5: cars purchase to believe after August of the next year,

3275
02:54:18,600 --> 02:54:22,600
Speaker 5: and they'll be kind of distributing them by zones and

3276
02:54:22,680 --> 02:54:28,120
Speaker 5: current ones will be retrofitted with my heat shields and events.

3277
02:54:30,200 --> 02:54:33,920
Speaker 5: I'm not quite sure how effective that'll be. One of

3278
02:54:33,920 --> 02:54:37,119
Speaker 5: the things for the inside people, you know it's there.

3279
02:54:37,800 --> 02:54:40,439
Speaker 5: You know, they'll be installing you know, tens of thousands

3280
02:54:40,600 --> 02:54:43,800
Speaker 5: of more fans, which you know, I'm not gonna lie

3281
02:54:44,240 --> 02:54:48,360
Speaker 5: that that will feel really nice because those trailers just

3282
02:54:48,400 --> 02:54:52,520
Speaker 5: get so hot and stuffy. There's no airflow, especially like

3283
02:54:52,600 --> 02:54:54,440
Speaker 5: if it's been sitting for a while, you open the door,

3284
02:54:54,480 --> 02:54:56,959
Speaker 5: it's just like a blast of heat. But the problem

3285
02:54:56,959 --> 02:55:01,200
Speaker 5: with fans is they're only so effective, particularly once it

3286
02:55:01,240 --> 02:55:06,879
Speaker 5: reaches ninety five degrees. They don't do anything. And so

3287
02:55:07,160 --> 02:55:11,320
Speaker 5: you know, there's a lot of places where it'll probably

3288
02:55:11,320 --> 02:55:13,760
Speaker 5: feel nice and it might help to some degree, but

3289
02:55:13,840 --> 02:55:16,480
Speaker 5: you know, especially like right now in you know, like

3290
02:55:16,520 --> 02:55:20,360
Speaker 5: the Southwest and the south where you've just had these

3291
02:55:21,160 --> 02:55:24,440
Speaker 5: you know, one hundred and ten plus degree days, you know,

3292
02:55:24,600 --> 02:55:28,200
Speaker 5: like over a month, like that's not going to do

3293
02:55:30,080 --> 02:55:34,680
Speaker 5: really do much, especially if you're anywhere depending on if

3294
02:55:34,720 --> 02:55:38,720
Speaker 5: you've got dry heat or you know, higher humidity. In

3295
02:55:38,760 --> 02:55:42,959
Speaker 5: the latter, fans can and sometimes make it worse. I'm

3296
02:55:42,959 --> 02:55:44,520
Speaker 5: also worried it's going to kind of be like this

3297
02:55:45,360 --> 02:55:48,800
Speaker 5: kind of like a comparison to a like security theater,

3298
02:55:49,000 --> 02:55:51,640
Speaker 5: but like more like safety theater, where it's this appearance

3299
02:55:51,680 --> 02:55:56,480
Speaker 5: of doing something to say like, look, we're doing this thing.

3300
02:55:56,520 --> 02:55:59,800
Speaker 5: It's going to keep you safe. But whether that's you know,

3301
02:56:00,520 --> 02:56:04,920
Speaker 5: actually true or not, well, I mean, we'll kind of

3302
02:56:04,959 --> 02:56:09,520
Speaker 5: find out. But definitely I'm pretty worried about, you know,

3303
02:56:09,560 --> 02:56:12,600
Speaker 5: what's going to happen, especially in the next five years

3304
02:56:13,000 --> 02:56:16,080
Speaker 5: we already have and I think it was the it

3305
02:56:16,120 --> 02:56:20,320
Speaker 5: was it. It was the World Meteorological Organization, you know,

3306
02:56:20,400 --> 02:56:23,360
Speaker 5: now has a their researchers have like a ninety eight

3307
02:56:23,360 --> 02:56:27,600
Speaker 5: percent certainty that we're going to reach a high mark

3308
02:56:28,120 --> 02:56:31,600
Speaker 5: for global warming before twenty twenty seven, so, you know,

3309
02:56:31,640 --> 02:56:34,800
Speaker 5: and I'm pretty sure last July was already the the

3310
02:56:34,840 --> 02:56:41,320
Speaker 5: hottest month on record globally, and it's something to read.

3311
02:56:41,440 --> 02:56:43,240
Speaker 5: There's and I think in that report was like a

3312
02:56:43,320 --> 02:56:46,840
Speaker 5: sixty six percent chance of passing that one point five

3313
02:56:47,040 --> 02:56:52,880
Speaker 5: degrees celsius warming global warming between now and twenty twenty seven.

3314
02:56:54,879 --> 02:56:56,840
Speaker 5: So it's kind of one of those things where you know,

3315
02:56:56,920 --> 02:57:00,800
Speaker 5: I don't think we necessarily have five years to to

3316
02:57:01,959 --> 02:57:06,240
Speaker 5: you know, address this contract language and add further protections.

3317
02:57:06,840 --> 02:57:12,640
Speaker 5: Especially we've got other unions like the International Longshorn Warehouse Union.

3318
02:57:13,520 --> 02:57:16,480
Speaker 5: They had an article that's talking about their heat protections,

3319
02:57:16,520 --> 02:57:19,360
Speaker 5: which have things like stewards that are equipped with heat

3320
02:57:19,400 --> 02:57:24,080
Speaker 5: monitoring equipment versus the current contract language for us would

3321
02:57:24,120 --> 02:57:26,879
Speaker 5: be they can just use like the OSHA app or

3322
02:57:27,920 --> 02:57:30,240
Speaker 5: you know, like weather service to check you know, like

3323
02:57:30,280 --> 02:57:33,879
Speaker 5: a weather station versus like the actual specific conditions you're

3324
02:57:33,879 --> 02:57:34,400
Speaker 5: working in.

3325
02:57:34,800 --> 02:57:36,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, that seems like there'd be a huge it

3326
02:57:36,840 --> 02:57:38,880
Speaker 2: seems like there's a huge discrepancy there because like the

3327
02:57:38,920 --> 02:57:41,480
Speaker 2: indoor temperatures and temperatures in these trailers are way hotter

3328
02:57:41,600 --> 02:57:44,480
Speaker 2: than like the reported conditions.

3329
02:57:45,040 --> 02:57:47,520
Speaker 5: Yeah, and it can be like five ten degrees hotter

3330
02:57:47,560 --> 02:57:54,160
Speaker 5: at least. I bought a little thermometer and hydrometer, hygrometer

3331
02:57:54,320 --> 02:57:57,640
Speaker 5: something like that whatever, measure to humidity, because that's kind

3332
02:57:57,640 --> 02:58:00,800
Speaker 5: of how because there are states with heat protections, there's

3333
02:58:00,920 --> 02:58:03,120
Speaker 5: like seven of them. A lot of times they're using

3334
02:58:03,160 --> 02:58:06,240
Speaker 5: the heat index when you're factoring in the temperature and

3335
02:58:06,360 --> 02:58:12,360
Speaker 5: humidity to get the fields like temperature and yeah, with

3336
02:58:12,560 --> 02:58:16,520
Speaker 5: the il WU, you know, they're also getting rest breaks

3337
02:58:16,560 --> 02:58:19,760
Speaker 5: as part of their contract language, which I believe two

3338
02:58:19,840 --> 02:58:24,200
Speaker 5: or three states have those of the seven total that

3339
02:58:24,240 --> 02:58:28,680
Speaker 5: actually have heat protections. And you know, the il WU

3340
02:58:28,920 --> 02:58:31,720
Speaker 5: is kind of talking about even though they have heat

3341
02:58:31,760 --> 02:58:35,040
Speaker 5: protections that kind of match or even kind of exceed

3342
02:58:35,080 --> 02:58:38,720
Speaker 5: partly what some of the states have. You know, they're

3343
02:58:38,800 --> 02:58:42,240
Speaker 5: kind of saying, this isn't enough for the current extreme

3344
02:58:42,320 --> 02:58:43,119
Speaker 5: heat we're facing.

3345
02:58:45,120 --> 02:58:47,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, and you know, we've talked about this

3346
02:58:47,480 --> 02:58:50,879
Speaker 2: on the show before, but like whatever heat protections get

3347
02:58:50,920 --> 02:58:54,280
Speaker 2: negotiated in a contract, like the company is going to

3348
02:58:54,760 --> 02:58:57,520
Speaker 2: basically the instant negotiations are over, is going to figure

3349
02:58:57,560 --> 02:59:00,640
Speaker 2: out what the a what the cheapest possible way to

3350
02:59:00,680 --> 02:59:02,640
Speaker 2: do this is with the shittiest equipment, and then be

3351
02:59:03,520 --> 02:59:05,680
Speaker 2: like try to They're going to immediately try to figure

3352
02:59:05,680 --> 02:59:09,720
Speaker 2: out like how you know, like how how to actually

3353
02:59:09,760 --> 02:59:11,400
Speaker 2: subvert it. And you know, this is this is the

3354
02:59:11,400 --> 02:59:13,440
Speaker 2: thing we've seen all over the world, even in places

3355
02:59:13,440 --> 02:59:16,480
Speaker 2: that have sort of national heat protection laws, is that

3356
02:59:16,560 --> 02:59:18,000
Speaker 2: you know, even even if you have a law, or

3357
02:59:18,000 --> 02:59:19,600
Speaker 2: even if you have a thing in the contract, even

3358
02:59:19,640 --> 02:59:21,760
Speaker 2: if you have something in your contract, it doesn't necessarily

3359
02:59:21,800 --> 02:59:24,280
Speaker 2: mean it's going to be enforced. And that requires a

3360
02:59:24,800 --> 02:59:28,560
Speaker 2: you know, it requires like a pretty significant degree of

3361
02:59:28,720 --> 02:59:31,480
Speaker 2: organization to make sure it stays enforced. And that's you

3362
02:59:31,520 --> 02:59:33,840
Speaker 2: know that that's true both of stuff that's in contract

3363
02:59:33,840 --> 02:59:36,720
Speaker 2: and stuff that's like legally required, and so like if

3364
02:59:36,760 --> 02:59:41,360
Speaker 2: if if if the thing that they're nominally required to

3365
02:59:41,520 --> 02:59:44,560
Speaker 2: do is still insufficient, it's going to end up being

3366
02:59:44,640 --> 02:59:45,920
Speaker 2: way worse than that on the ground.

3367
02:59:48,600 --> 02:59:51,240
Speaker 5: Yeah, we're seeing that with art I mean existing heat

3368
02:59:51,280 --> 02:59:54,280
Speaker 5: protections at the state level where they're you know, falling

3369
02:59:54,360 --> 02:59:58,119
Speaker 5: short and especially you know there's either you know, there's

3370
02:59:58,200 --> 03:00:01,119
Speaker 5: kind of loopholes or even just kind of like murky

3371
03:00:01,200 --> 03:00:03,840
Speaker 5: language that makes it really hard to enforce in some.

3372
03:00:03,760 --> 03:00:06,840
Speaker 2: Cases, do not have a good transition.

3373
03:00:06,959 --> 03:00:07,800
Speaker 1: But it's hot.

3374
03:00:09,800 --> 03:00:12,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, here here are some ads that are i don't know,

3375
03:00:13,360 --> 03:00:19,039
Speaker 2: hopefully not making the climate worse. And we're back. So

3376
03:00:19,320 --> 03:00:23,119
Speaker 2: outside of the sort of of the experience around heat,

3377
03:00:23,320 --> 03:00:24,840
Speaker 2: what what else has been going?

3378
03:00:24,959 --> 03:00:25,080
Speaker 4: Like?

3379
03:00:25,080 --> 03:00:29,160
Speaker 2: What else is in the contract that there's been sort

3380
03:00:29,160 --> 03:00:29,840
Speaker 2: of dispute over?

3381
03:00:32,480 --> 03:00:36,200
Speaker 9: So if you look online, and this is an instance

3382
03:00:36,240 --> 03:00:39,240
Speaker 9: of not really quite understanding what's in the contract. But

3383
03:00:39,280 --> 03:00:42,120
Speaker 9: if you go online, a lot of people think that

3384
03:00:42,160 --> 03:00:50,560
Speaker 9: there are pension freezes in the contract and one once again,

3385
03:00:50,600 --> 03:00:54,160
Speaker 9: I think we can contribute this misunderstanding to a calm

3386
03:00:54,200 --> 03:00:57,320
Speaker 9: strategy failure as well as a lack of open bargaining

3387
03:00:59,560 --> 03:01:06,960
Speaker 9: the the dot coms. The pension contribution rate has decreased,

3388
03:01:07,040 --> 03:01:11,199
Speaker 9: but money is still going in to the pension fund,

3389
03:01:12,280 --> 03:01:15,440
Speaker 9: not as much as it was. Is my understanding. The

3390
03:01:15,440 --> 03:01:18,640
Speaker 9: way the union broke it down for me was like

3391
03:01:18,720 --> 03:01:21,240
Speaker 9: there's a dollar and twenty five cents of that dollar

3392
03:01:21,600 --> 03:01:24,920
Speaker 9: is going to healthcare. Twenty five cents of that dollar

3393
03:01:25,000 --> 03:01:27,000
Speaker 9: is going to the pension and then fifty cents of

3394
03:01:27,040 --> 03:01:30,160
Speaker 9: it is going to wages. And I'm gonna be honest

3395
03:01:30,200 --> 03:01:33,480
Speaker 9: with you, I don't super understand all this money stuff either,

3396
03:01:34,879 --> 03:01:36,959
Speaker 9: but we yeah, they showed us a thing where like

3397
03:01:37,040 --> 03:01:41,360
Speaker 9: the contributions are going to keep happening. Other things that

3398
03:01:41,400 --> 03:01:45,000
Speaker 9: have been in the kind of in the like what

3399
03:01:45,040 --> 03:01:48,400
Speaker 9: we've all what people have been thinking about is the

3400
03:01:48,440 --> 03:01:51,040
Speaker 9: full time jobs, which I know we talked a lot

3401
03:01:51,080 --> 03:01:56,120
Speaker 9: about on the last one, and uh, yeah, that's it.

3402
03:01:56,600 --> 03:01:59,959
Speaker 9: I think we we were using the seventy five hundred

3403
03:02:00,040 --> 03:02:04,039
Speaker 9: for newly created jobs, but apparently the contract also specifically

3404
03:02:04,080 --> 03:02:08,600
Speaker 9: requires them to actually fill the twenty two thousand some

3405
03:02:09,400 --> 03:02:13,560
Speaker 9: full time jobs that exist that they just have not

3406
03:02:13,680 --> 03:02:17,200
Speaker 9: been filling. But even with that additional twenty two thousand,

3407
03:02:17,879 --> 03:02:21,760
Speaker 9: that's still roughly thirty thousand full time jobs, that is

3408
03:02:21,800 --> 03:02:24,720
Speaker 9: for the full time workfor for the whole workforce of

3409
03:02:24,720 --> 03:02:27,960
Speaker 9: three hundred and forty thousand people. And something I learned

3410
03:02:28,040 --> 03:02:32,160
Speaker 9: is that full time drivers can bid into those positions

3411
03:02:32,200 --> 03:02:35,600
Speaker 9: and get them because they will likely have the seniority

3412
03:02:35,640 --> 03:02:37,520
Speaker 9: to do so. Because that's how we determine how to

3413
03:02:37,560 --> 03:02:39,720
Speaker 9: fill jobs. It's by seniority. You know, how long have

3414
03:02:39,800 --> 03:02:42,000
Speaker 9: you been there? And usually you know, I think that

3415
03:02:42,080 --> 03:02:46,720
Speaker 9: makes sense, but you know that really just contributes to

3416
03:02:46,760 --> 03:02:50,480
Speaker 9: the long long wait of part timers trying to get

3417
03:02:50,520 --> 03:02:56,800
Speaker 9: full time work, right, And yeah, like the thing like

3418
03:02:56,959 --> 03:02:58,840
Speaker 9: kind of related to that. You know, we have these

3419
03:02:59,000 --> 03:03:00,920
Speaker 9: like if you have a market rate adjustment and you

3420
03:03:00,959 --> 03:03:03,160
Speaker 9: get your two seventy five, for me, that's going to

3421
03:03:03,200 --> 03:03:06,960
Speaker 9: be twenty six seventy five an hour, And that looks

3422
03:03:07,000 --> 03:03:09,640
Speaker 9: great until you remember that we are part time. It

3423
03:03:09,800 --> 03:03:13,640
Speaker 9: is like we are supposed to work half a work week.

3424
03:03:14,320 --> 03:03:16,360
Speaker 9: I work less than because of the hub that I

3425
03:03:16,400 --> 03:03:21,600
Speaker 9: am at, which is not great, but you know, we

3426
03:03:22,280 --> 03:03:26,840
Speaker 9: need the hours and there's not the there isn't enough jobs,

3427
03:03:27,400 --> 03:03:30,160
Speaker 9: and that's stimulated by this contract. I think that there

3428
03:03:30,480 --> 03:03:32,160
Speaker 9: probably could be a lot more jobs.

3429
03:03:32,480 --> 03:03:35,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, I want to see something about that specifically too,

3430
03:03:35,160 --> 03:03:37,840
Speaker 2: which is that like when when like you random listener

3431
03:03:37,840 --> 03:03:41,600
Speaker 2: who's not working EPs whenever you see someone like talking

3432
03:03:41,640 --> 03:03:44,200
Speaker 2: about a wage number, and it's for part timers, Like

3433
03:03:44,520 --> 03:03:46,000
Speaker 2: if if you want to try to figure out can

3434
03:03:46,040 --> 03:03:48,000
Speaker 2: this person's your vibe? You need to divide that number

3435
03:03:48,000 --> 03:03:50,640
Speaker 2: by two at like at the very least divide up

3436
03:03:50,640 --> 03:03:53,480
Speaker 2: by two, possibly divide it by more, because again, like you,

3437
03:03:53,600 --> 03:03:56,360
Speaker 2: they don't. No one's like if you're a part timer,

3438
03:03:56,440 --> 03:03:58,959
Speaker 2: like obviously, yeah you're not. You're not getting the hours

3439
03:03:59,400 --> 03:04:01,280
Speaker 2: that you know, that that that you that you would

3440
03:04:01,280 --> 03:04:04,680
Speaker 2: norbly you know if you can't just immediately convert that

3441
03:04:04,920 --> 03:04:06,720
Speaker 2: to what would the salary be if you worked, if

3442
03:04:06,760 --> 03:04:08,920
Speaker 2: you got like forty hours a week or whatever, Like,

3443
03:04:08,959 --> 03:04:11,080
Speaker 2: you can't do that. I've seen a lot I've seen

3444
03:04:11,120 --> 03:04:13,200
Speaker 2: this a lot, a lot, like on the internet. I've

3445
03:04:13,200 --> 03:04:16,600
Speaker 2: seen pundits talking about it like this, and it's just

3446
03:04:17,080 --> 03:04:22,280
Speaker 2: like a incomprehensible misunderstanding of the act of like how

3447
03:04:22,360 --> 03:04:25,520
Speaker 2: how this stuff actually works for you to be going like, oh,

3448
03:04:25,560 --> 03:04:27,680
Speaker 2: look at all this money that people are making, assuming

3449
03:04:27,760 --> 03:04:29,840
Speaker 2: that like you know, and then and then using calculations

3450
03:04:29,840 --> 03:04:32,920
Speaker 2: that are based on like someone working full time, which

3451
03:04:32,959 --> 03:04:36,840
Speaker 2: is most of the workforce, like a significant significant majority

3452
03:04:36,840 --> 03:04:38,640
Speaker 2: of the workforce is not is not working full time

3453
03:04:38,680 --> 03:04:40,720
Speaker 2: and will not be even after this contract.

3454
03:04:41,240 --> 03:04:44,359
Speaker 9: Yes, yeah, it's yeah, it's estimated there are sixty percent

3455
03:04:44,440 --> 03:04:49,160
Speaker 9: of the workforce is uh is part timers. So yeah, no,

3456
03:04:49,280 --> 03:04:52,320
Speaker 9: that that is a that is a huge issue, you know,

3457
03:04:52,440 --> 03:04:54,480
Speaker 9: a lot of people also, like when this is brought up,

3458
03:04:54,520 --> 03:04:56,080
Speaker 9: a lot of people like to then say, well, you know,

3459
03:04:56,160 --> 03:05:00,280
Speaker 9: get a second job, but our jobs aren't flexible. Like,

3460
03:05:00,360 --> 03:05:02,760
Speaker 9: first of all, fuck fuck having a second job. I

3461
03:05:02,800 --> 03:05:06,760
Speaker 9: am kind of staunchly opposed to the entire concept. But

3462
03:05:06,840 --> 03:05:10,199
Speaker 9: even if I wasn't, this job is not flexible enough

3463
03:05:10,480 --> 03:05:13,600
Speaker 9: to account for a second job, not unless you never

3464
03:05:13,640 --> 03:05:15,920
Speaker 9: want to sleep in your second job. Is when you

3465
03:05:16,000 --> 03:05:19,400
Speaker 9: should be like sleeping because you know, we have our

3466
03:05:19,440 --> 03:05:22,200
Speaker 9: start times, those are given to us a week in advance,

3467
03:05:22,520 --> 03:05:24,400
Speaker 9: but we don't know when our end times are because

3468
03:05:24,400 --> 03:05:26,600
Speaker 9: the end times are when we run out of packages.

3469
03:05:27,959 --> 03:05:32,720
Speaker 9: So you know, some days, you know, like in my hub,

3470
03:05:32,760 --> 03:05:34,879
Speaker 9: it's always just going to be the two hours, but

3471
03:05:35,520 --> 03:05:37,760
Speaker 9: like in other hubs, you could be there, you know,

3472
03:05:37,840 --> 03:05:39,040
Speaker 9: you could be trying to get your three and a

3473
03:05:39,080 --> 03:05:42,480
Speaker 9: half hour daily guarantee, like employing that when they're trying

3474
03:05:42,480 --> 03:05:44,560
Speaker 9: to send you home, or you could be there six

3475
03:05:44,640 --> 03:05:51,240
Speaker 9: seven hours, and you know, how, how how is another

3476
03:05:51,320 --> 03:05:55,440
Speaker 9: employer supposed to operate with that? You know, you call

3477
03:05:55,520 --> 03:05:58,800
Speaker 9: in like three times saying like, oh, I can't actually

3478
03:05:58,840 --> 03:06:00,680
Speaker 9: leave my first job. You're not gonna have that second

3479
03:06:00,760 --> 03:06:05,480
Speaker 9: job much longer. So yeah, in addition to the lack

3480
03:06:05,520 --> 03:06:08,000
Speaker 9: of full time jobs, the way this job is makes

3481
03:06:08,000 --> 03:06:10,880
Speaker 9: a second one impossible. So a lot of our part

3482
03:06:10,879 --> 03:06:14,320
Speaker 9: timers really are relying on that on that part time

3483
03:06:14,400 --> 03:06:17,360
Speaker 9: wage to get them through and picking up doubles when

3484
03:06:17,360 --> 03:06:19,600
Speaker 9: they can, which means you kind of end up having

3485
03:06:19,600 --> 03:06:22,240
Speaker 9: a ten hour day because there's like about a two

3486
03:06:22,280 --> 03:06:30,000
Speaker 9: hour like space of time in between the shifts. So yeah, yeah,

3487
03:06:30,040 --> 03:06:33,520
Speaker 9: it's uh, yeah, those are those are some some of

3488
03:06:33,560 --> 03:06:34,320
Speaker 9: the big issues.

3489
03:06:34,840 --> 03:06:37,400
Speaker 5: So yeah, that's one of my worries. You know, if

3490
03:06:37,400 --> 03:06:39,119
Speaker 5: I about you know, if I want to go full

3491
03:06:39,200 --> 03:06:42,880
Speaker 5: time or not, is you know, can be at least

3492
03:06:42,879 --> 03:06:46,760
Speaker 5: in the hub I work at, I would say usually

3493
03:06:47,000 --> 03:06:49,560
Speaker 5: I'm getting like twenty four hours a week, you know

3494
03:06:49,560 --> 03:06:52,039
Speaker 5: if I'm going full time, but double that because now

3495
03:06:52,040 --> 03:06:54,200
Speaker 5: I'm marking two shifts. But also you know, got to

3496
03:06:54,240 --> 03:06:57,240
Speaker 5: have that like hour or two of wait time between shifts.

3497
03:06:58,400 --> 03:07:00,280
Speaker 5: So you know, it's just a lot of time to

3498
03:07:00,360 --> 03:07:04,320
Speaker 5: be spending at work, especially on paid time at work.

3499
03:07:04,360 --> 03:07:07,200
Speaker 5: That is that is the worst. You know, it's not

3500
03:07:07,280 --> 03:07:09,600
Speaker 5: quite long enough stretch to like go home or at

3501
03:07:09,680 --> 03:07:13,400
Speaker 5: least you know you have a decent commute to work.

3502
03:07:14,800 --> 03:07:18,400
Speaker 5: And you know, another thing kind of came to my

3503
03:07:18,440 --> 03:07:23,000
Speaker 5: mind a little earlier earlier was that and it sounds like,

3504
03:07:23,200 --> 03:07:25,840
Speaker 5: at least talking with new hires, that this is still continuing,

3505
03:07:25,879 --> 03:07:29,320
Speaker 5: which is kind of this really deceptive hiring practice where

3506
03:07:29,680 --> 03:07:32,800
Speaker 5: the hours are posted. When I got the job, you know,

3507
03:07:32,879 --> 03:07:35,720
Speaker 5: it was posted as part time for get, it was

3508
03:07:35,720 --> 03:07:39,039
Speaker 5: something like I don't know, nine to four, but you know,

3509
03:07:39,080 --> 03:07:41,920
Speaker 5: had that schedule for five days a week, seven hour shifts,

3510
03:07:42,000 --> 03:07:44,960
Speaker 5: thirty five hours a week times. By the twenty six

3511
03:07:45,080 --> 03:07:47,760
Speaker 5: starting pay, I was like, oh, perfect, I'll be making like,

3512
03:07:48,360 --> 03:07:52,640
Speaker 5: you know, somewhere like mid forty thousand. That's that's livable

3513
03:07:52,800 --> 03:07:57,560
Speaker 5: at least for for my specific you know circumstances. But

3514
03:07:57,600 --> 03:08:00,200
Speaker 5: then of course get there and you know the yeah,

3515
03:08:00,240 --> 03:08:03,360
Speaker 5: we get two days notice for a start time. It's

3516
03:08:03,400 --> 03:08:06,560
Speaker 5: posted on our either you know, end of the week,

3517
03:08:06,760 --> 03:08:10,120
Speaker 5: so don't know exactly when I'm working, you know, until

3518
03:08:10,200 --> 03:08:13,920
Speaker 5: right before the next week, and you know, at least

3519
03:08:13,920 --> 03:08:16,080
Speaker 5: there an orientation. So when I asked, oh, like, what's

3520
03:08:16,120 --> 03:08:18,039
Speaker 5: actually the end time, I was just like, well, when

3521
03:08:18,080 --> 03:08:21,360
Speaker 5: the last package is loaded. Of course, if you know

3522
03:08:21,400 --> 03:08:23,240
Speaker 5: what when the next shift starts, you can kind of

3523
03:08:23,240 --> 03:08:26,440
Speaker 5: get a better idea of when you'll actually be out

3524
03:08:26,440 --> 03:08:29,680
Speaker 5: of there. But still it's just kind of it's, you know,

3525
03:08:29,760 --> 03:08:35,160
Speaker 5: it's this claim flexibility, but it's very difficult you know,

3526
03:08:35,320 --> 03:08:37,640
Speaker 5: to actually work a second job or even you know,

3527
03:08:37,680 --> 03:08:40,800
Speaker 5: they offer tuition reimbursement, and there's a number of students

3528
03:08:40,840 --> 03:08:42,840
Speaker 5: who have had you know, a hard time actually like

3529
03:08:43,440 --> 03:08:45,640
Speaker 5: you know, getting the time off to attend their classes.

3530
03:08:46,760 --> 03:08:48,840
Speaker 5: And I also say, in anywhere that's part time work

3531
03:08:48,840 --> 03:08:51,520
Speaker 5: that offers tuition reimbursement, you know, I would say there's

3532
03:08:51,520 --> 03:08:55,000
Speaker 5: an expected expectation that Okay, well you're going to school

3533
03:08:55,280 --> 03:08:57,880
Speaker 5: and you're working part time. You would think the wages

3534
03:08:57,920 --> 03:09:04,040
Speaker 5: then should at least you know, provide enough for rent, food, gas, textbooks,

3535
03:09:04,120 --> 03:09:04,400
Speaker 5: all that.

3536
03:09:05,160 --> 03:09:09,280
Speaker 9: Yeah, to piggyback off of what Oliver just said regarding

3537
03:09:09,560 --> 03:09:11,800
Speaker 9: you know, like this is a wage that is good

3538
03:09:11,879 --> 03:09:14,520
Speaker 9: for you know, their situation when they were assuming it

3539
03:09:14,560 --> 03:09:17,080
Speaker 9: was at the you know, thirty five hours a week.

3540
03:09:17,440 --> 03:09:19,320
Speaker 9: You know, another thing to think about is a lot

3541
03:09:19,320 --> 03:09:21,840
Speaker 9: of these part timers, you know, they have families, they

3542
03:09:21,840 --> 03:09:26,800
Speaker 9: have significant others that they're caring for. Like, you know

3543
03:09:26,840 --> 03:09:29,040
Speaker 9: a lot of people look at this wage and one

3544
03:09:29,120 --> 03:09:31,720
Speaker 9: make the faulty assumption that you talked about earlier by

3545
03:09:31,800 --> 03:09:33,840
Speaker 9: multiplying it by forty to get the forty and then

3546
03:09:33,879 --> 03:09:36,879
Speaker 9: they assume that's for just that one person, And like

3547
03:09:36,959 --> 03:09:39,680
Speaker 9: there are part timers of every age, right, and they

3548
03:09:39,720 --> 03:09:42,959
Speaker 9: all have their own their own families and stuff like

3549
03:09:42,959 --> 03:09:44,960
Speaker 9: that that they are expected to care for as well.

3550
03:09:45,680 --> 03:09:47,280
Speaker 9: So like when you look at all of this and

3551
03:09:47,360 --> 03:09:49,760
Speaker 9: the you know, the rate of inflation and the way

3552
03:09:49,760 --> 03:09:51,800
Speaker 9: the economy is, and you take all of these things

3553
03:09:51,840 --> 03:09:55,240
Speaker 9: into account, like the gains that are provided for in

3554
03:09:55,280 --> 03:10:00,360
Speaker 9: this contract is not enough when you consider the whole

3555
03:10:00,560 --> 03:10:04,800
Speaker 9: of everyone who works at UPS. You know, it's leaving

3556
03:10:04,840 --> 03:10:12,520
Speaker 9: behind families, right, Like yeah, it's it's wild.

3557
03:10:13,080 --> 03:10:13,240
Speaker 4: Yeah.

3558
03:10:13,240 --> 03:10:17,760
Speaker 2: And I think another thing that isn't talked about that

3559
03:10:17,920 --> 03:10:22,720
Speaker 2: much in terms of this is like the actual physical

3560
03:10:22,760 --> 03:10:25,800
Speaker 2: effect on your body of doing this kind of work,

3561
03:10:26,480 --> 03:10:28,520
Speaker 2: because this is like.

3562
03:10:30,240 --> 03:10:33,959
Speaker 1: I don't know, this kind of work is.

3563
03:10:32,959 --> 03:10:36,160
Speaker 2: Intense enough that I mean, there's there's there's very rare

3564
03:10:36,200 --> 03:10:38,879
Speaker 2: risk of injury, and there's also I mean just like

3565
03:10:39,760 --> 03:10:43,720
Speaker 2: you know, over the course of time, doing this kind

3566
03:10:43,800 --> 03:10:47,920
Speaker 2: of shit is going to like fuck up your body,

3567
03:10:48,120 --> 03:10:50,680
Speaker 2: and you know, like part part of the sort of

3568
03:10:50,720 --> 03:10:53,800
Speaker 2: bargain of like like part part of the bargain of

3569
03:10:53,800 --> 03:10:55,920
Speaker 2: this work is that you're getting you know, it's it's

3570
03:10:55,920 --> 03:10:58,920
Speaker 2: in some ways, like it's in some ways like you

3571
03:10:59,440 --> 03:11:02,440
Speaker 2: could think about it, like if you're a midlevel football player,

3572
03:11:02,480 --> 03:11:05,480
Speaker 2: like you're gonna get your fucking brain destroyed by just

3573
03:11:05,560 --> 03:11:09,160
Speaker 2: repeated head trauma, right, and you know, so, so there's

3574
03:11:09,200 --> 03:11:11,000
Speaker 2: only a limited amount of time your body can physically

3575
03:11:11,040 --> 03:11:12,680
Speaker 2: handle this. And it's like, yeah, okay, it looks like

3576
03:11:12,720 --> 03:11:14,240
Speaker 2: you're getting a lot of money in a very short

3577
03:11:14,240 --> 03:11:16,600
Speaker 2: amount of time, but you have to, you know, you

3578
03:11:16,680 --> 03:11:19,280
Speaker 2: have to live with the sort of physical consequences of

3579
03:11:19,320 --> 03:11:21,120
Speaker 2: what happened of what happened to you on that job

3580
03:11:21,160 --> 03:11:23,600
Speaker 2: getting the money. So that money also like not just

3581
03:11:23,840 --> 03:11:26,240
Speaker 2: doesn't just have to get you to like now right,

3582
03:11:26,480 --> 03:11:30,480
Speaker 2: like it also it has to also essentially be compensation

3583
03:11:30,560 --> 03:11:32,440
Speaker 2: to the physical damage that you're doing to your body

3584
03:11:32,440 --> 03:11:36,080
Speaker 2: by doing this shit. And you know, I think I

3585
03:11:36,120 --> 03:11:38,160
Speaker 2: think it I think like these ways look even worse

3586
03:11:38,200 --> 03:11:40,720
Speaker 2: when you look at like, you know, when you when

3587
03:11:40,720 --> 03:11:42,520
Speaker 2: you think of it in terms of you know, in

3588
03:11:42,520 --> 03:11:44,720
Speaker 2: in in like in like not even not just in

3589
03:11:44,760 --> 03:11:46,880
Speaker 2: terms of immediate rent, but like in in the really

3590
03:11:46,920 --> 03:11:50,360
Speaker 2: long term of having to you know, live with the

3591
03:11:50,400 --> 03:11:53,320
Speaker 2: sort of physical damage that you take from doing this stuff.

3592
03:11:54,440 --> 03:11:59,039
Speaker 5: Yeah, and that's fine. I just had a coworker talking

3593
03:11:59,080 --> 03:12:02,640
Speaker 5: about that today actually, And because that's I mean, there

3594
03:12:02,680 --> 03:12:05,240
Speaker 5: are a lot of like college age kids, you know,

3595
03:12:05,280 --> 03:12:09,240
Speaker 5: the early twenties. They've at least from you know, my

3596
03:12:09,280 --> 03:12:11,640
Speaker 5: experience of notes kind of usually they're kind of like

3597
03:12:11,640 --> 03:12:13,640
Speaker 5: the quick turnover. I feel like a lot of people

3598
03:12:13,640 --> 03:12:17,240
Speaker 5: are staying more like their you know, thirties, forties. You know,

3599
03:12:17,280 --> 03:12:21,320
Speaker 5: we have people older older than that too on my line,

3600
03:12:22,080 --> 03:12:24,400
Speaker 5: and I think part of that's just like kind of

3601
03:12:24,400 --> 03:12:28,240
Speaker 5: we understand the importance of i mean a gold tier

3602
03:12:29,080 --> 03:12:33,560
Speaker 5: health insurance plan and a pension, but you know, of

3603
03:12:33,560 --> 03:12:37,000
Speaker 5: course with you know, being older, uh, it's going to

3604
03:12:37,120 --> 03:12:39,920
Speaker 5: you know, have even more of an effect on the body.

3605
03:12:41,440 --> 03:12:43,360
Speaker 5: And yeah, I know, I know. I've heard people talking

3606
03:12:43,360 --> 03:12:44,840
Speaker 5: about this where it's just like, oh, well it's just

3607
03:12:44,920 --> 03:12:47,680
Speaker 5: part time or it's you know, entry level you know,

3608
03:12:47,800 --> 03:12:50,400
Speaker 5: quote unquote, uh you don't need a degree for this,

3609
03:12:50,520 --> 03:12:52,000
Speaker 5: so like why do you think you should be paid more?

3610
03:12:52,000 --> 03:12:55,280
Speaker 5: And it's like, well, it's it's brutal. I mean, we

3611
03:12:55,320 --> 03:12:57,400
Speaker 5: get a ten minute break, we're working up to six

3612
03:12:57,440 --> 03:13:01,160
Speaker 5: hours that is it. Why don't have to do a

3613
03:13:01,240 --> 03:13:04,840
Speaker 5: lunch break. I don't know. It seems like UPS just

3614
03:13:05,120 --> 03:13:09,600
Speaker 5: always gets there their way, and uh that's you know,

3615
03:13:10,600 --> 03:13:16,120
Speaker 5: like state, local, federal law that they don't care. Yeah, right,

3616
03:13:16,280 --> 03:13:21,320
Speaker 5: even this last contract and there's so many violations. Of course,

3617
03:13:21,360 --> 03:13:23,600
Speaker 5: you know we got to whether you know this is

3618
03:13:23,720 --> 03:13:26,959
Speaker 5: yes or no, whatever the next contract is. You know,

3619
03:13:27,080 --> 03:13:28,360
Speaker 5: that's going to be a big part of the fight

3620
03:13:28,480 --> 03:13:32,080
Speaker 5: is just holding them accountable and to the terms.

3621
03:13:34,720 --> 03:13:40,000
Speaker 9: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, Like I you know, I've had coworkers

3622
03:13:40,160 --> 03:13:43,680
Speaker 9: out on you know, uh workers comp for like you know,

3623
03:13:43,760 --> 03:13:46,240
Speaker 9: doing physical therapy for the injuries that they got on

3624
03:13:46,280 --> 03:13:49,720
Speaker 9: the job for like months at a time. Right, these

3625
03:13:49,840 --> 03:13:54,400
Speaker 9: like you know, we're sitting around loading boxes all day

3626
03:13:54,760 --> 03:13:56,680
Speaker 9: and some of them are very light, but some of

3627
03:13:56,720 --> 03:13:59,920
Speaker 9: them are really fucking heavy. Some of them are really

3628
03:14:00,080 --> 03:14:03,840
Speaker 9: awkward to hold. They're weirdly shaped. Like, there are some

3629
03:14:03,959 --> 03:14:07,600
Speaker 9: boxes where, like they tell you about, UPS tells you

3630
03:14:07,640 --> 03:14:11,320
Speaker 9: about methods the eight keys of lifting and lowering that

3631
03:14:11,480 --> 03:14:14,440
Speaker 9: you know should make it safe, but like there are

3632
03:14:14,440 --> 03:14:17,960
Speaker 9: some boxes where it's impossible to follow those. Those methods

3633
03:14:19,040 --> 03:14:23,720
Speaker 9: the absolute bane of my existence, and I recognize them

3634
03:14:23,720 --> 03:14:26,200
Speaker 9: every time I see them. I swear to God, these

3635
03:14:26,200 --> 03:14:28,360
Speaker 9: things must be just filled with lead because you look

3636
03:14:28,360 --> 03:14:31,400
Speaker 9: at them and it's a very small box. You know,

3637
03:14:31,680 --> 03:14:37,640
Speaker 9: it's not more than like probably twelve inches long, you know,

3638
03:14:37,800 --> 03:14:41,240
Speaker 9: like no, not even twelve inches, probably more like seven

3639
03:14:41,280 --> 03:14:45,280
Speaker 9: inches long, you know, like six seven inches wide, and

3640
03:14:45,320 --> 03:14:47,840
Speaker 9: then like two and a half inches you know deep,

3641
03:14:48,360 --> 03:14:50,160
Speaker 9: And that should be a very easy box, but it's

3642
03:14:50,200 --> 03:14:52,560
Speaker 9: like filled with lead. And for whatever reason, it can

3643
03:14:52,600 --> 03:14:57,400
Speaker 9: weigh like thirty five to fifty pounds Jesus, And it's

3644
03:14:57,520 --> 03:15:00,600
Speaker 9: like one that box is too small to like have

3645
03:15:00,680 --> 03:15:02,959
Speaker 9: a team lift on because you can't have two people

3646
03:15:03,000 --> 03:15:06,720
Speaker 9: around something like that. And like, you know, when you

3647
03:15:06,760 --> 03:15:09,879
Speaker 9: pick up a box, you're supposed to keep the natural

3648
03:15:09,920 --> 03:15:12,440
Speaker 9: curve of your back, but do not over extend the curve.

3649
03:15:13,840 --> 03:15:16,840
Speaker 9: And you have to for those like packages like that, right,

3650
03:15:17,120 --> 03:15:19,680
Speaker 9: Like there's not a way to position yourself to lift

3651
03:15:19,720 --> 03:15:23,280
Speaker 9: them safely, and you kind of have to a little

3652
03:15:23,280 --> 03:15:25,320
Speaker 9: bit jerk up, which they tell you not to do,

3653
03:15:25,560 --> 03:15:27,600
Speaker 9: but that's the only way to get leverage on it.

3654
03:15:28,480 --> 03:15:32,480
Speaker 9: And yeah, like and you know, I've been in trailers

3655
03:15:32,520 --> 03:15:36,440
Speaker 9: where like a box like that was loaded precariously, like

3656
03:15:36,840 --> 03:15:38,920
Speaker 9: just slightly above my head. And one time it came

3657
03:15:39,000 --> 03:15:41,800
Speaker 9: crashing down and I like neoed out of the way,

3658
03:15:41,920 --> 03:15:44,440
Speaker 9: like I was like in the fucking matrix, and I

3659
03:15:44,480 --> 03:15:46,320
Speaker 9: was just like, oh, if I had just been a

3660
03:15:46,360 --> 03:15:49,960
Speaker 9: little bit less responsive, that could have been a very

3661
03:15:50,000 --> 03:15:54,160
Speaker 9: serious head injury for me. And so yeah, the risk

3662
03:15:54,240 --> 03:15:57,879
Speaker 9: of like very severe injury. Like, you know, I busted

3663
03:15:57,879 --> 03:16:03,040
Speaker 9: my face open on a grate outside of where the

3664
03:16:03,160 --> 03:16:06,680
Speaker 9: what we call the cans, which are like the things

3665
03:16:06,760 --> 03:16:08,760
Speaker 9: that have all the packages they bring them to the

3666
03:16:08,800 --> 03:16:10,880
Speaker 9: bay doors. I was unloading and I had to go

3667
03:16:11,080 --> 03:16:14,959
Speaker 9: between them, and I like there was motor oil spilled.

3668
03:16:15,040 --> 03:16:17,520
Speaker 9: I tripped and I like smashed my open my face

3669
03:16:17,560 --> 03:16:20,200
Speaker 9: open on a fucking grate and had to get stitches.

3670
03:16:20,440 --> 03:16:26,840
Speaker 9: Like it's yeah, no, the safety involved with this job

3671
03:16:27,240 --> 03:16:33,520
Speaker 9: is not extremely guaranteed, and yeah, the risk of injury

3672
03:16:33,600 --> 03:16:37,240
Speaker 9: is high and we should be preemptively compensated for that.

3673
03:16:38,680 --> 03:16:41,000
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's like and even somehow if you managed to

3674
03:16:41,000 --> 03:16:45,480
Speaker 5: go like your whole career without a single injury, you know,

3675
03:16:45,600 --> 03:16:48,320
Speaker 5: there's well at least like more the kind of like

3676
03:16:48,480 --> 03:16:52,959
Speaker 5: accidental injury because it's still it's a lot of repetitive

3677
03:16:53,000 --> 03:16:56,960
Speaker 5: motion and you're gonna I mean eventually it's going to

3678
03:16:57,040 --> 03:16:57,800
Speaker 5: take its tall.

3679
03:16:58,920 --> 03:17:01,119
Speaker 2: If we were doing we're doing, we're doing some more ads.

3680
03:17:01,640 --> 03:17:06,920
Speaker 2: Yeah by things, all right, we are back. So I

3681
03:17:06,920 --> 03:17:09,440
Speaker 2: guess I know. Another aspect of this that I wanted

3682
03:17:09,440 --> 03:17:15,560
Speaker 2: to talk about has been the sort of broader strategy

3683
03:17:15,640 --> 03:17:18,959
Speaker 2: of trying to avoid strikes. And this has been both

3684
03:17:19,080 --> 03:17:21,800
Speaker 2: sort of to some extent run by union, to some

3685
03:17:21,840 --> 03:17:25,440
Speaker 2: extent like imposed from the top down. One of the

3686
03:17:25,480 --> 03:17:26,800
Speaker 2: things I wanted to sort of talk about. Yeah, I

3687
03:17:27,240 --> 03:17:31,240
Speaker 2: think in a sort of kind of underdiscussed aspect of

3688
03:17:31,360 --> 03:17:35,200
Speaker 2: what's been happening in the last sort of year or

3689
03:17:35,240 --> 03:17:40,880
Speaker 2: so has been Biden's willingness to get involved in strikes. Earlier,

3690
03:17:41,600 --> 03:17:44,360
Speaker 2: you know, Obama eventually got involved in a couple of

3691
03:17:44,400 --> 03:17:47,080
Speaker 2: strikes during his tenure, but he tended to not get

3692
03:17:47,120 --> 03:17:49,440
Speaker 2: involved until like a strike had been going on for

3693
03:17:49,560 --> 03:17:53,640
Speaker 2: like nine months or whatever. And Biden's been taking like

3694
03:17:53,680 --> 03:17:58,039
Speaker 2: a very very proactive approach to sort of I don't know,

3695
03:17:58,120 --> 03:18:00,360
Speaker 2: strike mitigation. I guess is the sort of of like

3696
03:18:00,560 --> 03:18:03,280
Speaker 2: sanitized term you take you to there, like keeping labor piece.

3697
03:18:04,040 --> 03:18:05,920
Speaker 2: But he seems to have a sort of you know,

3698
03:18:05,959 --> 03:18:08,840
Speaker 2: he's to be getting very very involved very quickly in

3699
03:18:09,040 --> 03:18:12,680
Speaker 2: trying to make sure that strikes don't happen. And you

3700
03:18:12,720 --> 03:18:14,400
Speaker 2: know the consequence of this is that we didn't get

3701
03:18:14,400 --> 03:18:17,800
Speaker 2: the rail strike that we should have gotten, and there's

3702
03:18:17,840 --> 03:18:20,560
Speaker 2: been a few other strikes that has sort of been

3703
03:18:20,560 --> 03:18:23,119
Speaker 2: a verdant And I wanted to ask, I guess how

3704
03:18:23,160 --> 03:18:25,200
Speaker 2: you're thinking about this strike, not just sort of in

3705
03:18:25,280 --> 03:18:30,280
Speaker 2: terms of like the immediate benefits, but in terms of

3706
03:18:30,320 --> 03:18:33,920
Speaker 2: what it would actually mean if like another major strike

3707
03:18:35,040 --> 03:18:37,199
Speaker 2: sort of get shut down before we can get going

3708
03:18:37,400 --> 03:18:41,119
Speaker 2: in a year that is, I mean, still even if

3709
03:18:41,160 --> 03:18:44,600
Speaker 2: the strike doesn't happen, a pretty sort of full year

3710
03:18:44,640 --> 03:18:45,480
Speaker 2: in labor terms.

3711
03:18:47,640 --> 03:18:50,640
Speaker 9: Yeah, yeah, well one, I guess I gotta say thank

3712
03:18:50,680 --> 03:18:55,879
Speaker 9: you to the most pro labor president of our life.

3713
03:18:56,360 --> 03:18:56,640
Speaker 2: Yeah.

3714
03:18:56,800 --> 03:19:00,520
Speaker 9: No, he yeah, you're absolutely right. He seem to be

3715
03:19:00,520 --> 03:19:05,520
Speaker 9: getting involved early and mitigating them. If I was, if

3716
03:19:05,560 --> 03:19:09,920
Speaker 9: I had to speculate, I you know, I he's very

3717
03:19:09,920 --> 03:19:13,560
Speaker 9: concerned about this whole economy thing that we keep talking about, right,

3718
03:19:14,240 --> 03:19:17,959
Speaker 9: and he doesn't want to see any big shocks to

3719
03:19:18,000 --> 03:19:22,880
Speaker 9: the economy. And you know that's something where I guess

3720
03:19:23,040 --> 03:19:28,240
Speaker 9: I disagree. I think, you know, I think a shock

3721
03:19:28,280 --> 03:19:30,800
Speaker 9: to the economy that is brought about by workers going

3722
03:19:30,840 --> 03:19:34,320
Speaker 9: on strike is a reminds them of what they have

3723
03:19:35,200 --> 03:19:39,039
Speaker 9: and what they move and what they create, right, And

3724
03:19:39,240 --> 03:19:42,400
Speaker 9: I think, yeah, the ruling class, you know, our politicians

3725
03:19:42,560 --> 03:19:46,720
Speaker 9: and the capitalists who own our politicians, they they don't

3726
03:19:46,760 --> 03:19:50,560
Speaker 9: want us to experience that. You know, Like I remember

3727
03:19:51,480 --> 03:19:57,600
Speaker 9: even during the you know, the Trump administration, when you

3728
03:19:57,640 --> 03:20:00,680
Speaker 9: know it was when during the government shutdown and Sarah

3729
03:20:00,680 --> 03:20:03,480
Speaker 9: Nelson got all the flight attendants to do a sick

3730
03:20:03,480 --> 03:20:06,800
Speaker 9: out and stuff like that, and kind of just like that,

3731
03:20:06,840 --> 03:20:09,360
Speaker 9: the government shutdown had ended and they all went back

3732
03:20:09,440 --> 03:20:14,560
Speaker 9: to do government things, whatever those government things are. And

3733
03:20:14,600 --> 03:20:17,000
Speaker 9: you know, like people on Twitter, you know, they were

3734
03:20:17,000 --> 03:20:20,560
Speaker 9: talking about like, yeah, this is like workers have power

3735
03:20:20,720 --> 03:20:24,200
Speaker 9: to affect not only their own work conditions, but they

3736
03:20:24,200 --> 03:20:28,600
Speaker 9: can have broad implications on society, on the political climate,

3737
03:20:28,680 --> 03:20:32,280
Speaker 9: on what's going on. And yeah, there was absolutely, I

3738
03:20:32,280 --> 03:20:37,199
Speaker 9: think a contingent of centrist liberals that were like really

3739
03:20:37,240 --> 03:20:40,959
Speaker 9: frightened by that idea. You know. They they like a

3740
03:20:41,040 --> 03:20:44,840
Speaker 9: society in which the right people with who went to

3741
03:20:44,879 --> 03:20:48,560
Speaker 9: the right schools and all of that, like where they

3742
03:20:48,560 --> 03:20:50,160
Speaker 9: are the ones that are in charge and they are

3743
03:20:50,160 --> 03:20:53,600
Speaker 9: the ones that are shaping history with the pen strokes

3744
03:20:53,840 --> 03:20:58,160
Speaker 9: on like, you know, whatever bills they're legislating, and yeah,

3745
03:20:58,200 --> 03:21:01,640
Speaker 9: I think they have a vested interest in making sure

3746
03:21:01,800 --> 03:21:06,560
Speaker 9: that workers don't get to experience that sense of autonomy

3747
03:21:07,120 --> 03:21:10,800
Speaker 9: that they can experience by going on strike and by seeing,

3748
03:21:11,480 --> 03:21:14,080
Speaker 9: you know, exactly what kind of power they have and

3749
03:21:14,120 --> 03:21:16,760
Speaker 9: what it does, because they don't want it. They don't

3750
03:21:16,760 --> 03:21:19,440
Speaker 9: want it to get beyond what's going on in the workplace.

3751
03:21:19,440 --> 03:21:24,280
Speaker 9: They barely want it there, you know. Like so yeah, yeah,

3752
03:21:24,320 --> 03:21:28,119
Speaker 9: I think there is a vested interest. And yeah, I

3753
03:21:28,240 --> 03:21:30,800
Speaker 9: have not been able to see it confirmed, but I

3754
03:21:30,840 --> 03:21:35,840
Speaker 9: have seen in articles where they will say that, you know,

3755
03:21:35,920 --> 03:21:38,440
Speaker 9: Sean O'Brien had met with President Biden, but then there

3756
03:21:38,480 --> 03:21:41,080
Speaker 9: isn't a link click through, so I can't figure out

3757
03:21:41,120 --> 03:21:44,360
Speaker 9: what the initial thing is. But I'm not surprised. I'm

3758
03:21:44,400 --> 03:21:49,680
Speaker 9: not surprised, Like, and it's it's a it's a damn shame.

3759
03:21:49,879 --> 03:21:53,080
Speaker 9: It's you know, it's a shame that the president of

3760
03:21:53,120 --> 03:21:56,680
Speaker 9: our local union, you know, should that have happened succumb

3761
03:21:56,720 --> 03:21:57,680
Speaker 9: to it, right.

3762
03:21:57,720 --> 03:21:59,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the thing. Whe's like, it's been really hard

3763
03:21:59,320 --> 03:22:01,520
Speaker 2: to get reliable information on. It's also possible they were

3764
03:22:01,560 --> 03:22:03,240
Speaker 2: sort of behind the scenes talks that we just don't

3765
03:22:03,280 --> 03:22:06,200
Speaker 2: know about. But you know, the place we know this

3766
03:22:06,240 --> 03:22:08,279
Speaker 2: happened is we know this happened between the rail strikes,

3767
03:22:08,320 --> 03:22:11,400
Speaker 2: right there was a lot of pressure from rail unions

3768
03:22:12,040 --> 03:22:15,520
Speaker 2: to like like on on their rank and file to

3769
03:22:15,680 --> 03:22:17,720
Speaker 2: like get to just like sign on to some kind

3770
03:22:17,760 --> 03:22:21,480
Speaker 2: of agreement. And I think I think this is something

3771
03:22:21,520 --> 03:22:24,680
Speaker 2: that you know, in terms of sort of political repression,

3772
03:22:24,920 --> 03:22:28,680
Speaker 2: Like it's something that's not understood in the same way,

3773
03:22:29,400 --> 03:22:33,000
Speaker 2: but like that is also still like that, Like that

3774
03:22:33,000 --> 03:22:36,640
Speaker 2: that like negotiating behind the scenes and putting pressure on

3775
03:22:36,680 --> 03:22:39,400
Speaker 2: and then you know, eventually Biden does just actively like

3776
03:22:40,360 --> 03:22:42,920
Speaker 2: mandate that the strike can't happen, right, Like that is

3777
03:22:43,600 --> 03:22:46,000
Speaker 2: like that I I I will argue that that is

3778
03:22:46,040 --> 03:22:47,560
Speaker 2: in fact a full of strike breaking.

3779
03:22:48,280 --> 03:22:49,640
Speaker 9: Mm hmm, I agree.

3780
03:22:49,760 --> 03:22:52,680
Speaker 2: And I think I think people are tend to be less.

3781
03:22:52,840 --> 03:22:56,000
Speaker 2: But but you know, specifically, the ability to sort of

3782
03:22:56,080 --> 03:22:59,600
Speaker 2: cut deals with unions like this is something that the

3783
03:22:59,680 --> 03:23:02,600
Speaker 2: republic Bloks have a like aren't like really good at

3784
03:23:03,080 --> 03:23:05,280
Speaker 2: Like it's not it's not an ability that they really have.

3785
03:23:05,320 --> 03:23:08,720
Speaker 2: It's it's something that like is largely limited to the Democrats.

3786
03:23:09,240 --> 03:23:11,080
Speaker 2: And but you know, but this this means that they

3787
03:23:11,080 --> 03:23:14,520
Speaker 2: have sort of they have a unique capacity to repress

3788
03:23:14,520 --> 03:23:19,440
Speaker 2: social movements that isn't as obvious as sort of like

3789
03:23:19,600 --> 03:23:22,720
Speaker 2: you know, just like a bunch of strike breakers showing

3790
03:23:22,800 --> 03:23:25,800
Speaker 2: up or the cop showing up, But is there all

3791
03:23:25,840 --> 03:23:27,960
Speaker 2: the same and I think is in some ways more

3792
03:23:28,040 --> 03:23:31,200
Speaker 2: dangerous because you know, like you get these arguments with

3793
03:23:31,280 --> 03:23:34,920
Speaker 2: like with the rail strike, where like technically eventually Biden

3794
03:23:35,040 --> 03:23:37,280
Speaker 2: was able to get some kind of deal through for

3795
03:23:37,640 --> 03:23:41,440
Speaker 2: some sick time, right, but you know, and you have

3796
03:23:41,560 --> 03:23:44,440
Speaker 2: you have this sort of like liberal conception of what

3797
03:23:44,959 --> 03:23:48,280
Speaker 2: labor is where they're like, oh, well, everyone was wrong

3798
03:23:48,360 --> 03:23:50,480
Speaker 2: to like be mad at Biden for this, like they

3799
03:23:50,520 --> 03:23:55,320
Speaker 2: got the thing eventually. But you know, the problem here

3800
03:23:55,560 --> 03:23:59,360
Speaker 2: isn't it isn't just you know, strikes aren't just about

3801
03:23:59,720 --> 03:24:02,400
Speaker 2: the immediate thing that you're fighting for, right, Like they're

3802
03:24:02,480 --> 03:24:05,720
Speaker 2: they're also about like moving the class as a whole.

3803
03:24:05,720 --> 03:24:07,800
Speaker 2: They're about the experience of striking. They're about i mean,

3804
03:24:07,800 --> 03:24:09,080
Speaker 2: you know, and they're also about the fact that you

3805
03:24:09,160 --> 03:24:11,360
Speaker 2: will get a better deal if you win a strike.

3806
03:24:11,840 --> 03:24:15,160
Speaker 2: Then you will if you get like you know, if

3807
03:24:15,200 --> 03:24:17,760
Speaker 2: if you get one of these sort of like negotiated

3808
03:24:17,800 --> 03:24:20,480
Speaker 2: deals like cut in the back room by Biden and

3809
03:24:20,600 --> 03:24:25,560
Speaker 2: like seventeen unions in the Manufacturer's Association, and so I think,

3810
03:24:25,600 --> 03:24:30,120
Speaker 2: I think, I think it's important to understand that, you know,

3811
03:24:31,640 --> 03:24:36,160
Speaker 2: the like there is a fundamental sort of difference between

3812
03:24:37,760 --> 03:24:41,280
Speaker 2: like liberalism sort of conception of you know, you you

3813
03:24:41,360 --> 03:24:43,920
Speaker 2: achieve material gains and it doesn't really matter what the

3814
03:24:43,959 --> 03:24:47,320
Speaker 2: process is, right or you know, the process is like

3815
03:24:47,560 --> 03:24:50,840
Speaker 2: you go through the legislative domain. There's an actual difference

3816
03:24:50,840 --> 03:24:54,240
Speaker 2: between that and the things that happens Drae to strike,

3817
03:24:54,320 --> 03:24:57,000
Speaker 2: which is, you know, there's there's an actual process of

3818
03:24:57,040 --> 03:24:59,440
Speaker 2: like the building of power of workers and you know,

3819
03:24:59,440 --> 03:25:03,480
Speaker 2: building the economy of the class itself. And I don't know,

3820
03:25:03,480 --> 03:25:04,920
Speaker 2: I think I think those are very different. And I

3821
03:25:04,959 --> 03:25:07,880
Speaker 2: think I think a lot of what we've been seeing

3822
03:25:07,959 --> 03:25:13,080
Speaker 2: here is an attempt both by unions themselves, by and

3823
03:25:13,200 --> 03:25:16,360
Speaker 2: you know, by by business leaders and also buy like

3824
03:25:16,480 --> 03:25:18,480
Speaker 2: the president and the Democratic Party to try to make

3825
03:25:18,520 --> 03:25:20,160
Speaker 2: sure that this doesn't happen and that they can sort

3826
03:25:20,200 --> 03:25:27,360
Speaker 2: of contain this really explosive labor moments and prevent it

3827
03:25:27,400 --> 03:25:29,119
Speaker 2: from sort of turning into anything more.

3828
03:25:30,160 --> 03:25:33,800
Speaker 9: Yeah, I think that's very true. I think that you know,

3829
03:25:34,600 --> 03:25:39,400
Speaker 9: the unions, you know, have long been divorced from their

3830
03:25:39,480 --> 03:25:42,800
Speaker 9: original roots. As like, you know, this was a communist

3831
03:25:42,879 --> 03:25:46,120
Speaker 9: social This sprung out of communism, socialism, anarchism. It was

3832
03:25:46,160 --> 03:25:50,640
Speaker 9: about workers banding together to not only collectively bargain just

3833
03:25:50,680 --> 03:25:53,680
Speaker 9: for the workplaces, but for society wide issues.

3834
03:25:53,760 --> 03:25:53,920
Speaker 3: Right.

3835
03:25:54,040 --> 03:25:59,000
Speaker 9: Unions used to be explicitly political, and I you know,

3836
03:25:59,120 --> 03:26:02,400
Speaker 9: as we've like seen this rise in political conscience, you

3837
03:26:02,440 --> 03:26:07,240
Speaker 9: know over like this last decade. The ruling class and

3838
03:26:07,640 --> 03:26:11,800
Speaker 9: you know, the entrenched union bureaucrats that have long been

3839
03:26:12,080 --> 03:26:15,080
Speaker 9: you know, divorced from those origins, I think have a

3840
03:26:15,200 --> 03:26:22,640
Speaker 9: very vested interest and you know, not having labor go

3841
03:26:22,879 --> 03:26:26,560
Speaker 9: back to those roots to and stuff like that, you know,

3842
03:26:26,600 --> 03:26:29,920
Speaker 9: it threatens it obviously threatens the working or the ruling

3843
03:26:29,920 --> 03:26:32,720
Speaker 9: class power, excuse me. And you know it threatens your

3844
03:26:32,959 --> 03:26:38,360
Speaker 9: union bureaucrat jobs when workers start like demanding more from

3845
03:26:38,480 --> 03:26:41,160
Speaker 9: like what the labor movement can provide for them.

3846
03:26:41,520 --> 03:26:41,720
Speaker 1: Right.

3847
03:26:42,680 --> 03:26:46,000
Speaker 9: So I think that's all, that's all very true, And

3848
03:26:46,120 --> 03:26:49,720
Speaker 9: it's just that this is another avenue where collective change

3849
03:26:49,760 --> 03:26:52,960
Speaker 9: is possible, and the state and capital will always clamp

3850
03:26:53,000 --> 03:26:57,680
Speaker 9: down on any avenue where change can be achieved through

3851
03:26:57,680 --> 03:27:01,920
Speaker 9: those means. So I think that's really really what we're

3852
03:27:01,920 --> 03:27:02,600
Speaker 9: seeing here.

3853
03:27:03,280 --> 03:27:05,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I don't know, I mean, I think I

3854
03:27:05,520 --> 03:27:09,840
Speaker 2: think another thing that's worth pointing out is that like

3855
03:27:10,320 --> 03:27:14,199
Speaker 2: part of the reason that, like part of the reason

3856
03:27:14,400 --> 03:27:16,000
Speaker 2: that you know, if you if you go back to

3857
03:27:16,040 --> 03:27:17,680
Speaker 2: sort of like when when the error of the sort

3858
03:27:17,680 --> 03:27:20,840
Speaker 2: of decline of unionism happened, right, like, part part of

3859
03:27:20,879 --> 03:27:25,280
Speaker 2: the reason why the Reagan era repression worked was that

3860
03:27:25,440 --> 03:27:27,640
Speaker 2: a lot of these unions had already sort of hollowed

3861
03:27:27,680 --> 03:27:30,560
Speaker 2: out the radical core of like what had been their

3862
03:27:30,640 --> 03:27:33,320
Speaker 2: union organizers. They had purged, you know, like the the CIO,

3863
03:27:33,520 --> 03:27:36,160
Speaker 2: I mean even back as there's always like the forties,

3864
03:27:36,800 --> 03:27:39,760
Speaker 2: like the CIO purged like all of its leftist members,

3865
03:27:41,520 --> 03:27:45,560
Speaker 2: and you know, you got these successive like these these

3866
03:27:45,560 --> 03:27:48,320
Speaker 2: successive sort of iterations of unionism that were less and

3867
03:27:48,360 --> 03:27:51,520
Speaker 2: less militant, and you know, like you can you can

3868
03:27:51,560 --> 03:27:53,879
Speaker 2: you can literally see what the result of that has been,

3869
03:27:54,080 --> 03:27:57,760
Speaker 2: right like union density down to like six percent. And

3870
03:27:57,840 --> 03:28:00,760
Speaker 2: so you know, if if, if if it keeps going

3871
03:28:00,800 --> 03:28:02,720
Speaker 2: like this and we keep getting these sort of like

3872
03:28:03,400 --> 03:28:06,560
Speaker 2: sustained efforts to make sure that it never redevelops again,

3873
03:28:06,680 --> 03:28:10,520
Speaker 2: Like yeah, like it's we're gonna we're gonna be stuck there.

3874
03:28:11,280 --> 03:28:13,240
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean it's just yeah, I mean specific to

3875
03:28:13,280 --> 03:28:16,840
Speaker 5: those ups contracts. Can absolutely see that, you know, by

3876
03:28:16,879 --> 03:28:19,680
Speaker 5: looking at the wage growth you know, through the last

3877
03:28:19,720 --> 03:28:23,520
Speaker 5: forty years, or maybe the lack thereof more of the

3878
03:28:23,600 --> 03:28:28,240
Speaker 5: stagnating wages just you know, between either you know, union

3879
03:28:28,280 --> 03:28:31,199
Speaker 5: officials or you know, even in the you know, Biden

3880
03:28:31,280 --> 03:28:33,320
Speaker 5: coming in. I think it's like, you know, more or

3881
03:28:33,400 --> 03:28:36,960
Speaker 5: less like these people who aren't going you know, who

3882
03:28:37,000 --> 03:28:41,920
Speaker 5: didn't enter the economy, uh, you know within the last

3883
03:28:42,200 --> 03:28:45,760
Speaker 5: you know, decade or two. You know, I don't know

3884
03:28:46,400 --> 03:28:49,560
Speaker 5: at all really what what our experiences are, you know,

3885
03:28:49,600 --> 03:28:53,200
Speaker 5: what kind of challenges and struggles and burdens we're facing,

3886
03:28:55,360 --> 03:28:58,240
Speaker 5: and I mean especially and not prepared at all for

3887
03:28:59,320 --> 03:29:01,920
Speaker 5: you know, just world with a drastically changing climate.

3888
03:29:03,280 --> 03:29:03,640
Speaker 3: Yeah.

3889
03:29:03,760 --> 03:29:04,000
Speaker 5: Yeah.

3890
03:29:04,040 --> 03:29:06,520
Speaker 9: And then like you know, also to go back to

3891
03:29:06,680 --> 03:29:09,520
Speaker 9: like you know, the decline of you know, how unions

3892
03:29:09,520 --> 03:29:15,080
Speaker 9: have operated you know, over these last like for some decades.

3893
03:29:15,240 --> 03:29:15,440
Speaker 3: Right.

3894
03:29:15,600 --> 03:29:17,520
Speaker 9: I think this is something I talked about a lot,

3895
03:29:17,560 --> 03:29:19,640
Speaker 9: and I talked about it, I think on the last podcast.

3896
03:29:20,120 --> 03:29:24,280
Speaker 9: But you know, once the the organized left was kind

3897
03:29:24,280 --> 03:29:26,280
Speaker 9: of purged out of all of these unions, you know,

3898
03:29:26,440 --> 03:29:30,360
Speaker 9: unions kind of became about a service model, and you know,

3899
03:29:30,400 --> 03:29:34,880
Speaker 9: that's when the union leadership you know, does you know,

3900
03:29:35,040 --> 03:29:37,840
Speaker 9: like you on the floor are enforcing your contract. You're

3901
03:29:37,840 --> 03:29:40,240
Speaker 9: bringing your grievances to the union, and the union is

3902
03:29:40,240 --> 03:29:44,120
Speaker 9: getting something done about them, right. And I think you know,

3903
03:29:44,160 --> 03:29:48,760
Speaker 9: that model in and of itself is indicative of a

3904
03:29:48,840 --> 03:29:53,760
Speaker 9: decline of a collective action, right. That reduces the union

3905
03:29:53,879 --> 03:29:56,480
Speaker 9: to Yeah, that's the entity you're going you go to

3906
03:29:56,879 --> 03:29:59,160
Speaker 9: when there is an issue in the enforcement of your

3907
03:29:59,200 --> 03:30:03,120
Speaker 9: contract and they negotiate a new contract for you, and

3908
03:30:03,480 --> 03:30:06,040
Speaker 9: you know, that's that's the service model type, right, And

3909
03:30:06,080 --> 03:30:08,000
Speaker 9: that's like what we're seeing a lot of. That's what like,

3910
03:30:08,040 --> 03:30:10,120
Speaker 9: you know, a lot of the business unions do and

3911
03:30:10,160 --> 03:30:13,279
Speaker 9: stuff like that. Some of them do it better than others,

3912
03:30:14,480 --> 03:30:17,800
Speaker 9: you know. But then there's also the organizing model, where

3913
03:30:18,040 --> 03:30:21,279
Speaker 9: you use the union as it means to make your

3914
03:30:21,520 --> 03:30:25,840
Speaker 9: members militant, and they do contract enforcement on the floor,

3915
03:30:25,959 --> 03:30:30,480
Speaker 9: and they like you know, organize protests at their work site,

3916
03:30:30,600 --> 03:30:33,000
Speaker 9: and they like you know, they get involved in you know,

3917
03:30:33,080 --> 03:30:37,680
Speaker 9: issues outside of the work site, right, And I think, yeah,

3918
03:30:37,760 --> 03:30:41,440
Speaker 9: like watching the service model kind of prevail over these

3919
03:30:41,520 --> 03:30:44,600
Speaker 9: last you know, some decades over. The organizing model is

3920
03:30:45,320 --> 03:30:50,680
Speaker 9: just yeah, it's absolutely just another sign of collective action

3921
03:30:50,920 --> 03:30:53,320
Speaker 9: being stamped down wherever it can be.

3922
03:30:54,200 --> 03:30:56,880
Speaker 2: You know, there's this an interesting thing with the there's

3923
03:30:56,879 --> 03:30:58,640
Speaker 2: an interesting thing with the service model that I see

3924
03:30:58,640 --> 03:31:00,680
Speaker 2: a lot where it's like, you know, when when when

3925
03:31:00,760 --> 03:31:05,360
Speaker 2: when you're getting like sort of union inoculation, uh like stuff, right,

3926
03:31:05,360 --> 03:31:08,000
Speaker 2: they'll be like, ah, I like the management is going

3927
03:31:08,040 --> 03:31:09,800
Speaker 2: to tell you that like the union is an outside

3928
03:31:09,800 --> 03:31:10,480
Speaker 2: force and it's not.

3929
03:31:10,560 --> 03:31:11,480
Speaker 1: The union is actually you.

3930
03:31:11,560 --> 03:31:14,600
Speaker 2: And it's like this is true. But also like, damn,

3931
03:31:14,600 --> 03:31:17,480
Speaker 2: I wonder where the idea that the union is an

3932
03:31:17,480 --> 03:31:20,160
Speaker 2: outside force it is not actually you came from, Like

3933
03:31:20,600 --> 03:31:23,879
Speaker 2: it couldn't you know, It's it's like it could it

3934
03:31:23,920 --> 03:31:26,160
Speaker 2: couldn't possibly have anything to do with the way you

3935
03:31:26,240 --> 03:31:29,000
Speaker 2: run your union, Like okay.

3936
03:31:28,920 --> 03:31:32,760
Speaker 9: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely, Yeah.

3937
03:31:32,760 --> 03:31:34,680
Speaker 5: I think we were talking about that last time, like

3938
03:31:34,760 --> 03:31:37,959
Speaker 5: the kind of like the lack of onboarding engagement by

3939
03:31:38,000 --> 03:31:42,880
Speaker 5: the union. Yeah, I mean especially yeah, I mean yeah,

3940
03:31:43,160 --> 03:31:46,640
Speaker 5: I mean I know this. I mean other union members too,

3941
03:31:46,640 --> 03:31:48,880
Speaker 5: where like does kind of feel like they're like, oh,

3942
03:31:48,959 --> 03:31:51,600
Speaker 5: I don't have all these benefits or higher pay or

3943
03:31:52,160 --> 03:31:53,800
Speaker 5: or you know, we're thinking about striking, but we don't

3944
03:31:53,800 --> 03:31:56,440
Speaker 5: even have a strike bund. You know, we don't know

3945
03:31:56,480 --> 03:32:01,120
Speaker 5: how exactly well whether the storm. I mean that's something

3946
03:32:01,160 --> 03:32:04,440
Speaker 5: I hear you know a lot on the shop floor.

3947
03:32:04,440 --> 03:32:09,039
Speaker 5: It's like when talking about, you know, our union, you know,

3948
03:32:09,080 --> 03:32:11,360
Speaker 5: it's it's always the union. I know I say that

3949
03:32:11,440 --> 03:32:13,640
Speaker 5: a ton too, but I mean I kind of feel

3950
03:32:13,640 --> 03:32:16,120
Speaker 5: like the language we just use like day to day

3951
03:32:16,120 --> 03:32:19,480
Speaker 5: talking about it, you know, I kind of there's not

3952
03:32:19,600 --> 03:32:23,119
Speaker 5: like inherent separation when it's like, oh, it's the union,

3953
03:32:23,120 --> 03:32:25,160
Speaker 5: it's the some you know, it's this outside thing. It's

3954
03:32:25,200 --> 03:32:28,080
Speaker 5: not oh, it's a collection of all you know, rank

3955
03:32:28,120 --> 03:32:32,720
Speaker 5: and file members. It's us really yeah, and it doesn't.

3956
03:32:33,000 --> 03:32:35,480
Speaker 2: The thing is, yeah, it doesn't become that unless you

3957
03:32:35,600 --> 03:32:40,320
Speaker 2: have a really high level of participation and then also

3958
03:32:41,120 --> 03:32:44,000
Speaker 2: like a systemic effort to make sure that to make

3959
03:32:44,000 --> 03:32:47,640
Speaker 2: sure everyone's involved and to make sure that you know,

3960
03:32:47,720 --> 03:32:50,320
Speaker 2: the the union functions in such a way that even

3961
03:32:50,320 --> 03:32:55,480
Speaker 2: that that like you know that that decisions, membership action matters.

3962
03:32:55,520 --> 03:32:59,039
Speaker 2: And I don't know, I think I think I think

3963
03:32:59,040 --> 03:33:04,680
Speaker 2: it's really I think it's really easy to you know,

3964
03:33:04,800 --> 03:33:07,640
Speaker 2: in this moment where unions are incredibly like you know,

3965
03:33:07,640 --> 03:33:10,240
Speaker 2: with the totally the actual amount of like unions in

3966
03:33:10,240 --> 03:33:16,640
Speaker 2: the US is really small. And also simultaneously, like you know,

3967
03:33:16,800 --> 03:33:19,400
Speaker 2: we're seeing a sort of resurgence of union organizing. I

3968
03:33:19,440 --> 03:33:21,480
Speaker 2: think it's really really easy to sort of fall into

3969
03:33:21,560 --> 03:33:27,120
Speaker 2: this trap and like be be completely uncritical of the

3970
03:33:27,160 --> 03:33:30,680
Speaker 2: way that unions have functioned, because again, like if the

3971
03:33:30,720 --> 03:33:35,160
Speaker 2: current model of unions that exists right now, like if

3972
03:33:35,160 --> 03:33:39,360
Speaker 2: that stuff worked, like we wouldn't be in in in

3973
03:33:39,480 --> 03:33:42,800
Speaker 2: the sort of conditions that we're in now. And that

3974
03:33:43,080 --> 03:33:46,120
Speaker 2: calls for you know, like that that that calls for

3975
03:33:46,200 --> 03:33:48,879
Speaker 2: collective action, and you know one of the things that

3976
03:33:48,920 --> 03:33:51,440
Speaker 2: calls for is being willing to go on strike.

3977
03:33:52,520 --> 03:33:54,680
Speaker 5: Yeah, absolutely, Yeah.

3978
03:33:54,760 --> 03:33:57,400
Speaker 2: Do you have anything else that you wanted to add?

3979
03:33:58,400 --> 03:34:01,800
Speaker 9: Yeah, no, because like something that you know, when I

3980
03:34:01,800 --> 03:34:05,400
Speaker 9: think about, like, you know, how do we get back

3981
03:34:05,440 --> 03:34:08,720
Speaker 9: to like this sort of you know where a union is.

3982
03:34:08,800 --> 03:34:10,640
Speaker 9: You know, we are the union. A union is a

3983
03:34:11,080 --> 03:34:15,040
Speaker 9: like is a collective of workers advocating for their rights.

3984
03:34:15,120 --> 03:34:19,720
Speaker 9: Right they are banding together, you know, they're negotiating together.

3985
03:34:20,080 --> 03:34:23,959
Speaker 9: And when I think about you know, the teamsters, you know,

3986
03:34:24,000 --> 03:34:26,800
Speaker 9: and how they operate right now, and you know, we

3987
03:34:26,920 --> 03:34:30,640
Speaker 9: just had that big reform slate when where Seawn O'Brien

3988
03:34:30,680 --> 03:34:32,959
Speaker 9: won and then you know, delivered us this contract. And

3989
03:34:33,000 --> 03:34:35,480
Speaker 9: you know, Shaun O'Brien did do like they they did

3990
03:34:35,680 --> 03:34:37,920
Speaker 9: in TDU, did do other good things. They got rid

3991
03:34:37,920 --> 03:34:44,879
Speaker 9: of that constitutional rule that Oliver mentioned earlier. But I think,

3992
03:34:45,080 --> 03:34:47,760
Speaker 9: you know, when we talk about like bringing down that

3993
03:34:47,879 --> 03:34:50,800
Speaker 9: barrier between the union and the members, the next most

3994
03:34:50,840 --> 03:34:53,760
Speaker 9: obvious step for me is that we need to get

3995
03:34:53,800 --> 03:34:58,280
Speaker 9: to open bargaining in this union. And frankly, I think

3996
03:34:58,400 --> 03:35:02,240
Speaker 9: open bargaining, or the fact that this bargaining was closed,

3997
03:35:02,280 --> 03:35:05,160
Speaker 9: you know, is behind it's behind closed doors. You know,

3998
03:35:05,240 --> 03:35:09,800
Speaker 9: there were NDAs signed, there were rank and file members there,

3999
03:35:10,040 --> 03:35:12,240
Speaker 9: but they also couldn't tell us about it because of

4000
03:35:12,240 --> 03:35:17,120
Speaker 9: those you know NDAs. Open bargaining is what's going to

4001
03:35:17,760 --> 03:35:22,120
Speaker 9: solve this because this, like the whole fiasco about this

4002
03:35:22,240 --> 03:35:27,560
Speaker 9: tentative agreement and now all the kind of resulting hostility

4003
03:35:27,640 --> 03:35:31,200
Speaker 9: that is felt between members and leadership and members and

4004
03:35:31,240 --> 03:35:35,480
Speaker 9: even other members. I think it's you know, like so

4005
03:35:35,640 --> 03:35:38,519
Speaker 9: much of this is due to a failure of comms

4006
03:35:38,600 --> 03:35:41,920
Speaker 9: and the fact that we did not know what was

4007
03:35:41,959 --> 03:35:46,680
Speaker 9: being discussed in this in these negotiations at any time

4008
03:35:46,840 --> 03:35:50,680
Speaker 9: except for the vague highlights that they could tell us about, right,

4009
03:35:51,400 --> 03:35:54,039
Speaker 9: and then you know, they release a highlight reel that

4010
03:35:54,280 --> 03:35:58,280
Speaker 9: has very confusing language. They eventually do release the contract,

4011
03:35:58,320 --> 03:36:01,440
Speaker 9: but not all of the memorandum of understanding that would

4012
03:36:01,440 --> 03:36:05,680
Speaker 9: help us understand what is actually in that contract. And

4013
03:36:06,680 --> 03:36:10,120
Speaker 9: you know, they they're releasing all of this information in

4014
03:36:10,160 --> 03:36:13,120
Speaker 9: a way that is going to result in people not

4015
03:36:13,320 --> 03:36:18,400
Speaker 9: understanding what's in it. And I really do think open

4016
03:36:18,440 --> 03:36:22,240
Speaker 9: bargaining is the next step that you know, reformers in

4017
03:36:22,320 --> 03:36:28,240
Speaker 9: this union need to be advocating and organizing for because

4018
03:36:28,840 --> 03:36:30,920
Speaker 9: this has just kind of been a real shit show,

4019
03:36:32,360 --> 03:36:35,400
Speaker 9: to be honest, and I yeah, I think it's a

4020
03:36:35,400 --> 03:36:38,000
Speaker 9: Comms failure to be perfectly honest.

4021
03:36:38,440 --> 03:36:42,039
Speaker 5: So yeah, yeah, and I would I would absolutely agree

4022
03:36:42,040 --> 03:36:44,840
Speaker 5: with that, you know, and I know, like there was

4023
03:36:45,200 --> 03:36:49,800
Speaker 5: there was a IBT webinar with Sean O'Brien, and you know,

4024
03:36:49,840 --> 03:36:54,080
Speaker 5: he even spoke to misinformation, but didn't you know, elaborate

4025
03:36:54,240 --> 03:36:58,080
Speaker 5: on what it was or you know, how or why

4026
03:36:58,640 --> 03:37:03,320
Speaker 5: it's wrong, And it's just like, hey, you got our emails, addresses,

4027
03:37:03,560 --> 03:37:06,879
Speaker 5: phone numbers, We're here on this webinar, Like you can

4028
03:37:06,879 --> 03:37:11,039
Speaker 5: correct the record anytime, you know, it's uh, if you're

4029
03:37:11,080 --> 03:37:15,320
Speaker 5: worried about something that's not true and may may or

4030
03:37:15,400 --> 03:37:18,600
Speaker 5: may not influence people's votes, like you can do something

4031
03:37:18,640 --> 03:37:21,760
Speaker 5: about that, Like you you have a lot of money,

4032
03:37:22,200 --> 03:37:25,200
Speaker 5: you have you know, a comms team to use it.

4033
03:37:26,080 --> 03:37:30,160
Speaker 5: It's you know, just talk to your members like they're

4034
03:37:30,400 --> 03:37:35,280
Speaker 5: real people. Uh, you know we can we can understand shit. Uh,

4035
03:37:35,440 --> 03:37:39,760
Speaker 5: you don't got to just you know, get get angry

4036
03:37:39,879 --> 03:37:42,040
Speaker 5: or even kind of like I was saying earlier, where

4037
03:37:42,040 --> 03:37:44,240
Speaker 5: it's just like it's almost just like feels like this

4038
03:37:44,440 --> 03:37:48,879
Speaker 5: framing where anything you know that's a dissenting view or

4039
03:37:48,920 --> 03:37:52,480
Speaker 5: a critique you know, so oh, it's just it's almost information.

4040
03:37:52,680 --> 03:37:54,520
Speaker 5: Don't don't pay any attention to it.

4041
03:37:55,200 --> 03:37:57,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, which is you know, I don't know, like I

4042
03:37:57,480 --> 03:37:59,680
Speaker 2: I've seen this in a couple of.

4043
03:38:01,120 --> 03:38:02,320
Speaker 1: I don't know, like.

4044
03:38:03,800 --> 03:38:05,520
Speaker 2: I've seen this in a couple of sort of union

4045
03:38:05,520 --> 03:38:06,760
Speaker 2: things we've coverled on this show.

4046
03:38:06,920 --> 03:38:07,280
Speaker 5: Is like.

4047
03:38:09,040 --> 03:38:12,920
Speaker 2: I don't know, And and an incredible unwillingness of union

4048
03:38:13,000 --> 03:38:15,040
Speaker 2: leadership to even like consider a position as not their

4049
03:38:15,080 --> 03:38:17,680
Speaker 2: own and to just sort of like immediately, you know,

4050
03:38:17,959 --> 03:38:20,560
Speaker 2: when confronted with another things just immediately attempt to completely

4051
03:38:20,640 --> 03:38:27,800
Speaker 2: delegitimate them and that sucks. Yeah, it's just not a

4052
03:38:28,920 --> 03:38:30,560
Speaker 2: not a great way to run a union.

4053
03:38:31,360 --> 03:38:34,280
Speaker 9: No, No, you definitely, you know, and I've been seeing

4054
03:38:34,280 --> 03:38:39,360
Speaker 9: this this uh, this closing like sort of rank around

4055
03:38:39,680 --> 03:38:45,640
Speaker 9: around leadership, right, and it's not something that inspires trust

4056
03:38:45,920 --> 03:38:50,039
Speaker 9: in union leadership whatsoever. Right, Like, you know, you could

4057
03:38:50,080 --> 03:38:53,959
Speaker 9: be a member that you know doesn't understand something, just

4058
03:38:54,000 --> 03:38:57,280
Speaker 9: has a question and then you kind of getting and

4059
03:38:57,400 --> 03:39:01,240
Speaker 9: you kind of just end up being stonewalled, and you know,

4060
03:39:01,280 --> 03:39:03,440
Speaker 9: you're told, well, you know, go to this meeting where

4061
03:39:03,440 --> 03:39:05,480
Speaker 9: we're going to explain things, and dah da da da

4062
03:39:05,520 --> 03:39:07,360
Speaker 9: da da da da da. And it's like, yeah, but

4063
03:39:07,400 --> 03:39:09,760
Speaker 9: you know, I have you on the phone, now, can

4064
03:39:09,800 --> 03:39:13,680
Speaker 9: you explain it now? And you know, and it's as

4065
03:39:13,760 --> 03:39:18,120
Speaker 9: it's like they're taking all of these concerns as a

4066
03:39:18,200 --> 03:39:22,160
Speaker 9: personal blow to their ego, right, Like they're taking it

4067
03:39:22,240 --> 03:39:26,200
Speaker 9: personally as if people having concerns about what this contract

4068
03:39:26,680 --> 03:39:29,200
Speaker 9: does and does not stipulate is like an attack on

4069
03:39:29,240 --> 03:39:35,360
Speaker 9: their moral character. And it's just really fucking frustrating. I

4070
03:39:35,959 --> 03:39:39,240
Speaker 9: gotta be real with you. And you know it doesn't

4071
03:39:39,280 --> 03:39:41,720
Speaker 9: say a lot for the overall democratic nature of the

4072
03:39:41,879 --> 03:39:46,800
Speaker 9: union either, right, Like, you know, this is like, you know,

4073
03:39:46,840 --> 03:39:49,200
Speaker 9: you're kind of being told, well, you know, keep your

4074
03:39:49,240 --> 03:39:52,280
Speaker 9: opinions to yourself, accept our word for it. Like you

4075
03:39:52,320 --> 03:39:54,560
Speaker 9: can vote however you want. You know, this is one member,

4076
03:39:54,640 --> 03:39:57,720
Speaker 9: one vote. But you know you can't be going online

4077
03:39:57,760 --> 03:40:00,920
Speaker 9: talking about it. You like can't be going talking to

4078
03:40:00,920 --> 03:40:03,320
Speaker 9: your coworkers about it because you don't have all the information.

4079
03:40:03,440 --> 03:40:09,279
Speaker 9: You're not understanding it correctly, and it's just like, well,

4080
03:40:09,320 --> 03:40:13,879
Speaker 9: can you get better at explaining it? Can you not

4081
03:40:14,120 --> 03:40:18,160
Speaker 9: react this way? Like can we have like a thing

4082
03:40:18,240 --> 03:40:22,000
Speaker 9: where like we can just like fucking talk about what's

4083
03:40:22,040 --> 03:40:25,680
Speaker 9: in it and what's not in it? And yeah, it's

4084
03:40:25,720 --> 03:40:28,480
Speaker 9: it's just again been real fucking frustrating.

4085
03:40:29,720 --> 03:40:29,879
Speaker 4: Yeah.

4086
03:40:29,920 --> 03:40:32,520
Speaker 5: It's another thing I mean too, is you know, any

4087
03:40:32,520 --> 03:40:35,680
Speaker 5: contract language maybe it should either be more clear or concise,

4088
03:40:35,959 --> 03:40:37,760
Speaker 5: or if it's going to be more on the legal

4089
03:40:37,800 --> 03:40:41,560
Speaker 5: east side, you know, put out a little like contract

4090
03:40:42,080 --> 03:40:47,440
Speaker 5: like explainer guide maybe especially around key language or language

4091
03:40:47,440 --> 03:40:49,360
Speaker 5: that they know is maybe vague or going to cause

4092
03:40:49,640 --> 03:40:59,000
Speaker 5: you know, issues of like understanding it. And even you know,

4093
03:40:59,080 --> 03:41:02,199
Speaker 5: one one other thing about like you know, open bargaining,

4094
03:41:03,000 --> 03:41:06,879
Speaker 5: was you know, looking at the IBT press release, you

4095
03:41:06,920 --> 03:41:09,840
Speaker 5: know there's one paragraph and it starts rank and file

4096
03:41:09,879 --> 03:41:13,600
Speaker 5: members served on the committee for the first time. It

4097
03:41:13,920 --> 03:41:16,879
Speaker 5: continues on later saying, you know, our hard work has

4098
03:41:16,920 --> 03:41:20,200
Speaker 5: finally paid or our hard work has paid off, and

4099
03:41:20,240 --> 03:41:24,240
Speaker 5: I you know, and goes on to then say, you know,

4100
03:41:24,360 --> 03:41:28,200
Speaker 5: this is the most historic contract we've ever had. So

4101
03:41:28,240 --> 03:41:30,240
Speaker 5: it kind of seems like right there where it's like, well,

4102
03:41:30,360 --> 03:41:34,560
Speaker 5: if limited member participation found by NDA has led to

4103
03:41:34,600 --> 03:41:38,000
Speaker 5: this historic contract, maybe it's time to involve all of us.

4104
03:41:39,120 --> 03:41:39,320
Speaker 2: Yeah.

4105
03:41:40,680 --> 03:41:42,520
Speaker 9: And also, you know, the rank and file that are

4106
03:41:42,520 --> 03:41:46,680
Speaker 9: on these committees are appointed by leadership, so we don't

4107
03:41:46,760 --> 03:41:50,160
Speaker 9: we don't get to choose who these people are. And

4108
03:41:51,360 --> 03:41:54,720
Speaker 9: it's like leadership absolutely just has the ability to be like, well,

4109
03:41:54,760 --> 03:41:58,760
Speaker 9: I'm gonna, you know, appoint the ones that I like

4110
03:41:58,800 --> 03:42:00,640
Speaker 9: the most, that I have the best really relationship with

4111
03:42:00,959 --> 03:42:04,840
Speaker 9: that I know thinks the sun kind of shines out

4112
03:42:04,840 --> 03:42:10,359
Speaker 9: of my ass. And yeah, there's just this absolutely overall

4113
03:42:10,680 --> 03:42:18,359
Speaker 9: lack of a democratic lack of a democratic internal culture.

4114
03:42:18,480 --> 03:42:24,320
Speaker 9: You know, we elect you know, our officers, most of them,

4115
03:42:25,160 --> 03:42:28,120
Speaker 9: but we don't elect stewards. We don't really we don't

4116
03:42:28,120 --> 03:42:31,480
Speaker 9: elect our business agents or like anything like that. We

4117
03:42:31,560 --> 03:42:34,160
Speaker 9: vote on our contracts and that's it, you know at

4118
03:42:34,160 --> 03:42:37,600
Speaker 9: our union meetings. I've had one union meeting where we

4119
03:42:37,680 --> 03:42:41,879
Speaker 9: did a vote that was introduced by leadership. Right, It's

4120
03:42:41,959 --> 03:42:46,760
Speaker 9: just it's yeah, it's not the most democratic culture. And

4121
03:42:46,800 --> 03:42:49,240
Speaker 9: that's another thing that needs to that needs to change

4122
03:42:49,240 --> 03:42:49,680
Speaker 9: as well.

4123
03:42:50,959 --> 03:42:52,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I mean I think that goes back to

4124
03:42:52,320 --> 03:42:56,800
Speaker 2: a sort of like, you know, a fundamental political conflict,

4125
03:42:56,920 --> 03:43:00,800
Speaker 2: which is like, is democracy when you've for someone else

4126
03:43:00,840 --> 03:43:03,520
Speaker 2: to make every decision? Or is democracy when people collectively

4127
03:43:03,560 --> 03:43:08,440
Speaker 2: make decisions themselves? And the sort of slipperyess of those

4128
03:43:08,480 --> 03:43:12,520
Speaker 2: two things causes you know, like causes you know, allows

4129
03:43:12,560 --> 03:43:15,280
Speaker 2: people who essentially want to be the only ones who

4130
03:43:15,280 --> 03:43:17,120
Speaker 2: ever get to make decisions to be able to claim

4131
03:43:17,120 --> 03:43:22,000
Speaker 2: that they are in favor of democracy or whatever. But

4132
03:43:22,240 --> 03:43:24,520
Speaker 2: you know mean like mean that they get to make

4133
03:43:24,520 --> 03:43:28,119
Speaker 2: all decisions after they get elected, and not mean actual

4134
03:43:28,120 --> 03:43:30,680
Speaker 2: people sort of make decisions for themselves.

4135
03:43:32,520 --> 03:43:36,680
Speaker 5: Yeah. Yeah, like we need a you know more so

4136
03:43:36,760 --> 03:43:39,320
Speaker 5: only serves it's more of a delegate role than ah,

4137
03:43:39,800 --> 03:43:40,960
Speaker 5: you know, representative.

4138
03:43:41,840 --> 03:43:44,120
Speaker 2: Okay, I guess I guess my my final thing is

4139
03:43:44,320 --> 03:43:47,920
Speaker 2: I yeah, you two are both encouraging are going to

4140
03:43:48,000 --> 03:43:53,720
Speaker 2: encourage people to vote no on this contract for the

4141
03:43:53,959 --> 03:43:59,840
Speaker 2: the the the surely long list of both technical, procedural,

4142
03:44:00,520 --> 03:44:04,960
Speaker 2: I material and like broadly social reasons.

4143
03:44:08,280 --> 03:44:12,760
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's correct, I'll be Yeah, I'll be voting no

4144
03:44:12,879 --> 03:44:17,960
Speaker 5: and also advocating for that, and also I mean just

4145
03:44:18,280 --> 03:44:20,720
Speaker 5: also advocating people to vote as well.

4146
03:44:22,320 --> 03:44:31,320
Speaker 9: Yes, big same on that low low union participation sends

4147
03:44:31,320 --> 03:44:35,000
Speaker 9: a bad message to the company. So definitely definitely doing

4148
03:44:35,040 --> 03:44:40,320
Speaker 9: both and continuing to have those conversations on the shop

4149
03:44:40,360 --> 03:44:43,560
Speaker 9: floors with folks explaining my concerns and stuff like that.

4150
03:44:44,120 --> 03:44:46,680
Speaker 9: But yeah, no, I'm I'm also going to be voting

4151
03:44:46,760 --> 03:44:48,600
Speaker 9: no on this contract as well.

4152
03:44:51,959 --> 03:44:57,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, so that is Yeah, I guess I guess that

4153
03:44:57,000 --> 03:44:59,600
Speaker 2: that that that is our coverage of this. There is

4154
03:44:59,640 --> 03:45:03,280
Speaker 2: still time for there is still time for there to

4155
03:45:03,360 --> 03:45:05,320
Speaker 2: actually be a striker, for this contract to fail and

4156
03:45:05,360 --> 03:45:08,360
Speaker 2: for people to fight for a better one. And yeah,

4157
03:45:08,600 --> 03:45:11,640
Speaker 2: I wish both of you too good luck in fighting

4158
03:45:11,680 --> 03:45:16,000
Speaker 2: this and yeah, and thank you both for coming on.

4159
03:45:16,879 --> 03:45:18,879
Speaker 9: Yeah, yeah, thanks so much for having us. I was

4160
03:45:18,920 --> 03:45:22,280
Speaker 9: excited to give you guys an update about all the

4161
03:45:22,280 --> 03:45:24,400
Speaker 9: crazy shit we talked about in the first episode.

4162
03:45:24,640 --> 03:45:27,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm glad, glad, glad I got to talk about it.

4163
03:45:27,160 --> 03:45:30,080
Speaker 5: That's a pleasure. Of being on and yeah, I appreciate

4164
03:45:30,120 --> 03:45:30,640
Speaker 5: the time.

4165
03:45:31,480 --> 03:45:33,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, do you do you have anything to plug before?

4166
03:45:35,080 --> 03:45:39,920
Speaker 5: You know? Yes or no? Vote solidarity all all workers

4167
03:45:40,120 --> 03:45:43,680
Speaker 5: and everyone on the shop floor. And you know we'll

4168
03:45:44,360 --> 03:45:48,640
Speaker 5: got to keep on fighting for better conditions.

4169
03:45:49,720 --> 03:45:53,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you too, dear listener, can fight for better

4170
03:45:53,400 --> 03:45:58,120
Speaker 2: conditions in your own workplace. And yeah, one day, one day,

4171
03:45:58,120 --> 03:46:00,360
Speaker 2: fight for a world we don't have. Workplace is like

4172
03:46:00,360 --> 03:46:00,840
Speaker 2: this at all?

4173
03:46:01,320 --> 03:46:03,040
Speaker 5: Amen, hallelujah.

4174
03:46:19,240 --> 03:46:24,120
Speaker 1: What foreign my policy? I don't know. I don't know, Guys,

4175
03:46:24,160 --> 03:46:26,640
Speaker 1: I don't know. I got like trapped into this like

4176
03:46:27,160 --> 03:46:30,600
Speaker 1: pattern of doing introductions a certain way and I don't

4177
03:46:30,640 --> 03:46:33,280
Speaker 1: really I don't really feel good about it. But how

4178
03:46:33,280 --> 03:46:36,840
Speaker 1: do you how does one break their patterns? Speaking of patterns,

4179
03:46:37,320 --> 03:46:42,520
Speaker 1: let's talk about Syria beautiful.

4180
03:46:43,440 --> 03:46:45,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, I understand exactly what that meant.

4181
03:46:47,080 --> 03:46:48,959
Speaker 3: I feel like one of the basketball guys when someone

4182
03:46:49,040 --> 03:46:50,680
Speaker 3: lays him up and then he just does a dunk.

4183
03:46:51,400 --> 03:46:54,680
Speaker 3: That's what I feel like. I don't know about.

4184
03:46:54,000 --> 03:46:57,760
Speaker 1: Green Bay Packers swish mm hmmm.

4185
03:46:58,120 --> 03:47:03,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, go Tom Brady. Okay, uh okay, sports talk aside.

4186
03:47:03,280 --> 03:47:07,480
Speaker 3: I'm wearing my Rwanda football shirt today. We we are

4187
03:47:07,520 --> 03:47:13,360
Speaker 3: gathered here today to talk about Turkish drone strikes on

4188
03:47:13,400 --> 03:47:14,080
Speaker 3: their sts.

4189
03:47:14,200 --> 03:47:16,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, not funny, not funny.

4190
03:47:16,480 --> 03:47:20,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, the sday funny. We're talking about like Turkish the

4191
03:47:20,560 --> 03:47:26,320
Speaker 1: continued Turkish military operations across their border in northeast Syria,

4192
03:47:26,440 --> 03:47:30,200
Speaker 1: the area commonly known as Rosjava, and also in southern

4193
03:47:30,240 --> 03:47:31,080
Speaker 1: Turkey as well.

4194
03:47:32,320 --> 03:47:32,560
Speaker 4: Yeah.

4195
03:47:32,959 --> 03:47:36,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, So just to give some some numbers around this

4196
03:47:37,040 --> 03:47:39,400
Speaker 3: to start off, right, and you're twenty twenty two, which

4197
03:47:39,440 --> 03:47:43,240
Speaker 3: there wasn't a territorial offensive, so like you're not seeing

4198
03:47:43,280 --> 03:47:47,840
Speaker 3: like troops on the ground. Turkey carried out one hundred

4199
03:47:47,840 --> 03:47:51,280
Speaker 3: and thirty drone strikes in the Autonomous Administration of Northany Syria. Yeah,

4200
03:47:51,280 --> 03:47:55,480
Speaker 3: that's the place is more commonly known as Rojhova, and

4201
03:47:56,280 --> 03:48:01,520
Speaker 3: they killed at least eight YPJ members. YPJ would be

4202
03:48:01,560 --> 03:48:06,600
Speaker 3: the Women's Protection Forces, who are a unit within the

4203
03:48:06,600 --> 03:48:11,920
Speaker 3: Syrian Democratic Forces, which is the armed forces of the

4204
03:48:12,280 --> 03:48:16,320
Speaker 3: ans Autonomous Area of North Easyria. I will come at

4205
03:48:16,320 --> 03:48:18,840
Speaker 3: you really hard with acronyms in this. I think if

4206
03:48:18,879 --> 03:48:22,400
Speaker 3: people haven't listened to Roberts series Women's War, maybe the

4207
03:48:22,520 --> 03:48:25,440
Speaker 3: Women's War, that would be a good place to start,

4208
03:48:25,760 --> 03:48:27,880
Speaker 3: because like we only have half an hour of forty

4209
03:48:27,879 --> 03:48:31,440
Speaker 3: five minutes or whatever, and we can't explain an extremely

4210
03:48:31,520 --> 03:48:35,920
Speaker 3: complicated conflict which has been going on for twelve years

4211
03:48:35,920 --> 03:48:39,120
Speaker 3: in that time. So I think some grounding in who

4212
03:48:39,160 --> 03:48:41,480
Speaker 3: is who and what is what you can find it there,

4213
03:48:41,520 --> 03:48:44,680
Speaker 3: I guess. But it's that a fair summary of who

4214
03:48:44,760 --> 03:48:45,320
Speaker 3: those people are.

4215
03:48:45,400 --> 03:48:49,160
Speaker 1: Robert, Yeah, basically, so you had kind of the gist

4216
03:48:49,160 --> 03:48:51,000
Speaker 1: of the story is that for a very long time,

4217
03:48:51,120 --> 03:48:55,440
Speaker 1: starting in southern Turkey, there's been a Kurdish militant group

4218
03:48:55,560 --> 03:48:58,120
Speaker 1: called the PKK. They were way back in the day,

4219
03:48:58,240 --> 03:49:03,120
Speaker 1: originally Maoist. They had a bunch of internal power struggles

4220
03:49:03,120 --> 03:49:06,960
Speaker 1: within their own organization and then wound up taking a

4221
03:49:07,000 --> 03:49:13,440
Speaker 1: pretty uh wide turn away from Maoism towards a kind

4222
03:49:13,440 --> 03:49:15,960
Speaker 1: of political theory heavily influenced by the work of an

4223
03:49:15,960 --> 03:49:20,160
Speaker 1: American anarchist thinker named Murray Bukchin. This was largely due

4224
03:49:20,160 --> 03:49:23,520
Speaker 1: to the fact that their leader, a guy named abdulah Ajalon,

4225
03:49:24,560 --> 03:49:27,040
Speaker 1: got while he was in Turkish prison kind of pilled

4226
03:49:27,200 --> 03:49:32,160
Speaker 1: on a lot of these this kind of like fringe

4227
03:49:32,160 --> 03:49:39,440
Speaker 1: American libertarian ish sort of political philosophy. Yeah, with with this, basically,

4228
03:49:39,480 --> 03:49:43,160
Speaker 1: the gist of it is this this kind of this

4229
03:49:43,320 --> 03:49:45,480
Speaker 1: kind of synthetic this kind of synthesis of a lot

4230
03:49:45,520 --> 03:49:48,800
Speaker 1: of Bukchen's ideas with some of the stuff that Agelog

4231
03:49:48,920 --> 03:49:51,880
Speaker 1: had been had been thinking about for years, kind of

4232
03:49:52,360 --> 03:49:59,200
Speaker 1: culminated in uh political philosophy called libertarian municipalism, which is

4233
03:49:59,600 --> 03:50:03,600
Speaker 1: more less the governing philosophy that these different armed militant

4234
03:50:04,440 --> 03:50:08,840
Speaker 1: organizations kind of clustered around the PKK in Northeast Syria,

4235
03:50:08,880 --> 03:50:11,080
Speaker 1: because the PKK for years were just kind of like

4236
03:50:11,120 --> 03:50:13,240
Speaker 1: cross the border in the northeast Syria when they were

4237
03:50:13,240 --> 03:50:15,080
Speaker 1: fighting with the Turks and they had to get away,

4238
03:50:16,000 --> 03:50:18,400
Speaker 1: and they had a bunch of inroads with local Kurdish

4239
03:50:18,480 --> 03:50:22,720
Speaker 1: organizations in northeast Syria. And when the Asad regime pulled

4240
03:50:22,720 --> 03:50:24,560
Speaker 1: out of the area in the early stages of the

4241
03:50:24,560 --> 03:50:27,800
Speaker 1: Syrian Civil War, a lot of these groups that were

4242
03:50:27,800 --> 03:50:30,760
Speaker 1: affiliated with the p PKK were kind of the best

4243
03:50:30,880 --> 03:50:35,560
Speaker 1: organized organizations in the area, and so they took over

4244
03:50:35,640 --> 03:50:39,120
Speaker 1: a lot of civil administration and basing a lot of

4245
03:50:39,200 --> 03:50:43,960
Speaker 1: their plans and you know, functional activities around these ideas

4246
03:50:43,960 --> 03:50:46,880
Speaker 1: that Ajalon had been you know, writing about for years

4247
03:50:46,880 --> 03:50:50,160
Speaker 1: and years, and so you kind of have this mix

4248
03:50:50,280 --> 03:50:53,120
Speaker 1: of all these armed organizations that are to some extent

4249
03:50:53,200 --> 03:50:57,960
Speaker 1: descended from the PKK, but are now much broader than

4250
03:50:58,040 --> 03:51:00,880
Speaker 1: just sort of a Kurdish liberatory organization. These are the

4251
03:51:00,880 --> 03:51:06,200
Speaker 1: folks who fought and defeated ISIS in northeast Syria. Yeah,

4252
03:51:06,280 --> 03:51:08,720
Speaker 1: that's I don't know, there's there's so much to get into,

4253
03:51:08,880 --> 03:51:11,600
Speaker 1: but I guess that's kind of the the broad strokes

4254
03:51:11,600 --> 03:51:13,240
Speaker 1: and all of these different because there's a bunch of

4255
03:51:13,240 --> 03:51:16,360
Speaker 1: different militias. You know, There's there's militias that are kind

4256
03:51:16,400 --> 03:51:20,920
Speaker 1: of more traditionalist Arab militias. There's there's Armenian militias in

4257
03:51:20,960 --> 03:51:24,160
Speaker 1: the area. There's obviously these Kurdish militias, the YPG and

4258
03:51:24,200 --> 03:51:27,840
Speaker 1: the YPG primarily Kurdish militias, but they all fight under

4259
03:51:27,840 --> 03:51:31,640
Speaker 1: the banner of the SDF and to the Turks, they're

4260
03:51:31,640 --> 03:51:32,520
Speaker 1: all the PKK.

4261
03:51:33,120 --> 03:51:36,480
Speaker 11: Yes, I'm glad you mentioned all the different militias and stuff,

4262
03:51:36,480 --> 03:51:39,240
Speaker 11: because it gets really confusing. Like even I mean, I'm Syrian,

4263
03:51:39,360 --> 03:51:41,960
Speaker 11: I'm just like I cannot keep up. I talked to

4264
03:51:42,000 --> 03:51:44,480
Speaker 11: my parents about it too, and they're just like, that's

4265
03:51:44,640 --> 03:51:46,920
Speaker 11: it's it's it's complicated. So I think you did a

4266
03:51:46,920 --> 03:51:49,160
Speaker 11: good job breaking that down. I also want to mention

4267
03:51:49,200 --> 03:51:52,680
Speaker 11: they were the only people fighting ISIS in Syria. Yeah,

4268
03:51:52,800 --> 03:51:55,320
Speaker 11: so I think it's pretty notable to mention.

4269
03:51:55,720 --> 03:51:56,360
Speaker 9: Yeah.

4270
03:51:56,440 --> 03:51:59,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, I got a list of the found in groups

4271
03:51:59,360 --> 03:52:02,160
Speaker 3: of the SDA. So this happens in twenty fifteen, right,

4272
03:52:02,960 --> 03:52:06,960
Speaker 3: sort of earlier in the fight against ISIS. And some

4273
03:52:07,000 --> 03:52:09,240
Speaker 3: of these groups are descended. Latian said, not not from

4274
03:52:09,240 --> 03:52:11,560
Speaker 3: the YPJ or the YPG, And Robert said this to

4275
03:52:11,560 --> 03:52:15,200
Speaker 3: you that they come from the FSA, the Free Syrian Army,

4276
03:52:15,240 --> 03:52:18,920
Speaker 3: Like there's specifically the FSA around the Kabani area contributing elements.

4277
03:52:18,960 --> 03:52:22,000
Speaker 3: There's a Syriac Military Council, so that's a distinct ethnic group.

4278
03:52:23,240 --> 03:52:27,600
Speaker 3: There is the jayash or al If. I said that right,

4279
03:52:29,600 --> 03:52:31,360
Speaker 3: Uh no, but I can say it if you are

4280
03:52:32,520 --> 03:52:35,240
Speaker 3: please do magical thank you.

4281
03:52:37,800 --> 03:52:43,120
Speaker 11: Jish means army or like yeah, army, yeah jeish. It's

4282
03:52:43,160 --> 03:52:46,160
Speaker 11: annoying because the English is spelled jyish, but it's just

4283
03:52:46,200 --> 03:52:46,640
Speaker 11: a Jewish.

4284
03:52:47,160 --> 03:52:51,200
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, the revolutionary army, army of revolutionaries, I guess

4285
03:52:51,240 --> 03:52:54,840
Speaker 3: more accurately, who are another mixed ethnicity group, they, like

4286
03:52:54,960 --> 03:52:58,840
Speaker 3: Robert said, include Turkmen, Armenians, all kinds of different ethnic groups.

4287
03:52:58,880 --> 03:53:01,920
Speaker 3: So I get this point that the entity that is

4288
03:53:01,960 --> 03:53:06,480
Speaker 3: the SDF is a majority Arab entity. It's not like

4289
03:53:06,520 --> 03:53:12,200
Speaker 3: an ethnic Kurdish thing, and and and the autonomous Administration

4290
03:53:12,320 --> 03:53:15,320
Speaker 3: is not like a Kurdish f no state, which I

4291
03:53:15,320 --> 03:53:19,800
Speaker 3: think is something that people can sometimes either confuse or conflate.

4292
03:53:20,120 --> 03:53:22,000
Speaker 3: But like that that's not the case, right that, That's

4293
03:53:22,040 --> 03:53:25,320
Speaker 3: not what this sort of democratic federalism is about, nor

4294
03:53:25,400 --> 03:53:27,640
Speaker 3: is it what's represented in terms of the composition of

4295
03:53:27,920 --> 03:53:32,360
Speaker 3: the people there people doing the fighting, right, So sometimes

4296
03:53:32,400 --> 03:53:34,760
Speaker 3: these groups will be referred to on masses like quote

4297
03:53:34,840 --> 03:53:35,800
Speaker 3: unquote the Kurds.

4298
03:53:36,240 --> 03:53:38,920
Speaker 1: You should by how kind of messy. My explanation was,

4299
03:53:38,960 --> 03:53:41,760
Speaker 1: it is hard to walk people through this. Folks eyes

4300
03:53:41,840 --> 03:53:43,880
Speaker 1: tend to glaze over, for one thing, when you mention

4301
03:53:44,000 --> 03:53:47,200
Speaker 1: a certain number of acronyms. But this leads to a

4302
03:53:47,240 --> 03:53:49,920
Speaker 1: situation whereby the US news is just like the Kurds

4303
03:53:49,920 --> 03:53:51,600
Speaker 1: defeated isis in Northeast Syria.

4304
03:53:51,680 --> 03:53:53,080
Speaker 2: It was like no, there was.

4305
03:53:53,160 --> 03:53:55,120
Speaker 1: There were a whole lot of other people who did

4306
03:53:55,120 --> 03:54:00,760
Speaker 1: a lot of dying when involved, and some cards who

4307
03:54:00,760 --> 03:54:01,560
Speaker 1: were not involved.

4308
03:54:02,120 --> 03:54:04,120
Speaker 11: So it's also just so much infighting. I think that

4309
03:54:04,200 --> 03:54:06,400
Speaker 11: it gets I don't know, it's it's a lot.

4310
03:54:06,800 --> 03:54:07,080
Speaker 3: It is.

4311
03:54:07,160 --> 03:54:10,000
Speaker 1: It is a lot like saying the Americans defeated the Nazis,

4312
03:54:10,000 --> 03:54:12,560
Speaker 1: and it's like, well some other people.

4313
03:54:12,280 --> 03:54:16,400
Speaker 3: Who involved in that word yeah, yeah, well yeah, I've

4314
03:54:16,400 --> 03:54:18,840
Speaker 3: seen some films from let me tell you, Yes, I

4315
03:54:18,880 --> 03:54:21,760
Speaker 3: think I think Rubedy's right, Like it collapses two things, right,

4316
03:54:21,840 --> 03:54:26,520
Speaker 3: like the heterogeneity of of Kettish people, right, Differentkaddish areas,

4317
03:54:26,480 --> 03:54:30,320
Speaker 3: of different Kattish movement and the heterogeneity of the SDF.

4318
03:54:30,520 --> 03:54:33,760
Speaker 3: So yeah, mainstream use sometimes yeah, because it shocking.

4319
03:54:34,040 --> 03:54:37,680
Speaker 1: It is also worth noting like Kurds are not certainly

4320
03:54:37,720 --> 03:54:42,040
Speaker 1: not a like a monolithic group. For examining North the

4321
03:54:42,040 --> 03:54:45,760
Speaker 1: Assyria is like flat lands lowlands, and there's a big

4322
03:54:45,760 --> 03:54:48,240
Speaker 1: difference between the mountain Kurds and the Kurds who live

4323
03:54:48,240 --> 03:54:50,800
Speaker 1: in these like lowlands, and traditionally even like a lot

4324
03:54:50,800 --> 03:54:54,280
Speaker 1: of like bad blood and stuff between different groups, because

4325
03:54:54,400 --> 03:55:01,480
Speaker 1: you know, that's just the way human beings are, Like yeah.

4326
03:55:00,120 --> 03:55:04,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's really easy, I think for when we're consuming news,

4327
03:55:04,760 --> 03:55:07,240
Speaker 3: especially news about the part of the world that the

4328
03:55:08,720 --> 03:55:11,760
Speaker 3: populace here hasn't been spectacularly well informed on, to break

4329
03:55:11,800 --> 03:55:14,840
Speaker 3: things down into easy groups, right, Like you'll see a

4330
03:55:14,840 --> 03:55:17,240
Speaker 3: lot as well, like Sunni and Shias, like the two

4331
03:55:17,280 --> 03:55:21,360
Speaker 3: categories that can exist within like and then people get

4332
03:55:21,400 --> 03:55:24,120
Speaker 3: very confused when there are categories within that when when

4333
03:55:24,160 --> 03:55:28,360
Speaker 3: they're where there are Sunni groups fighting each other, and

4334
03:55:28,440 --> 03:55:32,120
Speaker 3: the same with like Kurds, Turkmen or whatever. Like, none

4335
03:55:32,120 --> 03:55:36,080
Speaker 3: of these groups are homogeneous. And sometimes yeah, if you do,

4336
03:55:36,160 --> 03:55:37,480
Speaker 3: I get it. If you're doing a five minute piece

4337
03:55:37,480 --> 03:55:40,440
Speaker 3: for TV, that's what you do. But here we are

4338
03:55:40,480 --> 03:55:43,400
Speaker 3: not doing a five minute piece for TV. So this

4339
03:55:43,480 --> 03:55:46,000
Speaker 3: is this has not been like Kurdish history one O. One,

4340
03:55:46,000 --> 03:55:48,320
Speaker 3: please read some more books about that. I'll put some

4341
03:55:48,400 --> 03:55:51,920
Speaker 3: in the sources. But what I want to talk about

4342
03:55:51,960 --> 03:55:57,520
Speaker 3: today is some of these barakhtar attacks on specifically YPJ. Right,

4343
03:55:57,560 --> 03:56:00,720
Speaker 3: so the YPJ would be the Women's Defense Forces, So

4344
03:56:00,800 --> 03:56:05,520
Speaker 3: that's a women's militia within the SDF that, as Robert said,

4345
03:56:05,520 --> 03:56:10,920
Speaker 3: it's based heavily, I guess on the outlook of Abdulah Oscelin,

4346
03:56:11,880 --> 03:56:14,680
Speaker 3: who's sometimes called Appo, so we might use that for

4347
03:56:14,720 --> 03:56:18,520
Speaker 3: brevity here. So in one attack in April twenty twenty two,

4348
03:56:18,840 --> 03:56:23,640
Speaker 3: three YPGA fighters were killed. Di Lahaleb, who had participated

4349
03:56:23,640 --> 03:56:26,760
Speaker 3: in the resistance of the Sheik Masoud district of Aleppo

4350
03:56:26,800 --> 03:56:29,680
Speaker 3: in twenty twelve. She become a leading YPGA commander and

4351
03:56:29,720 --> 03:56:32,400
Speaker 3: participated in the fight against isis playing a leading role

4352
03:56:32,400 --> 03:56:35,680
Speaker 3: in the liberation of the city of Mimbic Rahani Kabane.

4353
03:56:36,040 --> 03:56:38,720
Speaker 3: It's worth noting, I guess sorry I stop every fifteen

4354
03:56:38,760 --> 03:56:41,920
Speaker 3: seconds to explain context that you'll hear sometimes place names

4355
03:56:41,920 --> 03:56:44,040
Speaker 3: in people's names. That's because they're like norm de gear

4356
03:56:44,400 --> 03:56:47,360
Speaker 3: rather than that this is not their legal name necessary,

4357
03:56:47,480 --> 03:56:51,120
Speaker 3: but it's it's standard practice for these people to take

4358
03:56:51,520 --> 03:56:54,320
Speaker 3: like a movement name or a nom de geer, much

4359
03:56:54,400 --> 03:56:58,600
Speaker 3: like Robert and I explained in the episodes on Miamma.

4360
03:56:58,720 --> 03:57:01,040
Speaker 3: A lot of people do this, a lot of places

4361
03:57:01,080 --> 03:57:01,600
Speaker 3: that fair.

4362
03:57:01,480 --> 03:57:06,240
Speaker 1: Robert, Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's a lot of like oftentimes

4363
03:57:06,280 --> 03:57:08,560
Speaker 1: people just like take a name based on their city

4364
03:57:08,640 --> 03:57:11,960
Speaker 1: that they came from, like Kobani or whatever. But yeah,

4365
03:57:12,040 --> 03:57:14,440
Speaker 1: it's it's pretty much the norm that most people, most

4366
03:57:14,520 --> 03:57:17,200
Speaker 1: fighters will introduce themselves by some sort of nobdaghear.

4367
03:57:18,080 --> 03:57:21,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, even some of the I know people who are

4368
03:57:21,760 --> 03:57:24,080
Speaker 3: like British or American who have been over there, who

4369
03:57:24,120 --> 03:57:25,960
Speaker 3: are over there, and they also have these.

4370
03:57:26,840 --> 03:57:29,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, and there's a there's a lot in that. One

4371
03:57:29,040 --> 03:57:30,560
Speaker 1: thing you have to keep in mind is that like

4372
03:57:30,600 --> 03:57:33,160
Speaker 1: a lot of these people who are revolutionaries, who consider

4373
03:57:33,200 --> 03:57:37,440
Speaker 1: themselves revolutionaries, have family in regime controlled parts of town

4374
03:57:37,600 --> 03:57:40,840
Speaker 1: or or parts of Syria or in you know, in

4375
03:57:41,000 --> 03:57:43,560
Speaker 1: id Lip, which is largely controlled by these like more

4376
03:57:43,560 --> 03:57:48,480
Speaker 1: Turkish backed Islamist groups. And so part of why you

4377
03:57:48,520 --> 03:57:51,040
Speaker 1: do this is like, I don't want my family like

4378
03:57:51,120 --> 03:57:53,600
Speaker 1: getting caught up in this shit, like if they live

4379
03:57:53,680 --> 03:57:55,280
Speaker 1: somewhere else, like I don't want to like bring that

4380
03:57:55,360 --> 03:57:56,760
Speaker 1: down on them. It's just safer.

4381
03:57:58,080 --> 03:58:01,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, just like when we did episodes, right, we had

4382
03:58:01,280 --> 03:58:05,360
Speaker 3: Miaowka and Andy and Sarah. Another woman, as I said,

4383
03:58:05,400 --> 03:58:10,360
Speaker 3: Rohani Kabane joined the YPGA in twenty fourteen. She fought

4384
03:58:10,360 --> 03:58:13,800
Speaker 3: against ISIS. She was wounded. She participated after recovering in

4385
03:58:13,880 --> 03:58:17,400
Speaker 3: the liberation of Rakka, and she was the co chair

4386
03:58:17,400 --> 03:58:20,320
Speaker 3: of the defense committee in Kabbani. And then there was

4387
03:58:20,320 --> 03:58:23,400
Speaker 3: the youngest, the youngest woman she just joined. I guess

4388
03:58:23,480 --> 03:58:25,840
Speaker 3: or her joined at a young age. And she was

4389
03:58:25,880 --> 03:58:31,160
Speaker 3: called Kabani and she uh like she joined after the

4390
03:58:31,160 --> 03:58:33,360
Speaker 3: fight against ISIS. She she was very young. There are

4391
03:58:33,360 --> 03:58:36,400
Speaker 3: pictures I'll include the report. It's very sad to see

4392
03:58:36,440 --> 03:58:37,920
Speaker 3: someone I think, so yeah.

4393
03:58:37,720 --> 03:58:40,000
Speaker 11: They look they look like there's a couple of them

4394
03:58:40,040 --> 03:58:43,800
Speaker 11: that looked like babies. Like, it's really devastating because it's

4395
03:58:44,440 --> 03:58:46,800
Speaker 11: I don't know, their lives are taken from them and

4396
03:58:46,840 --> 03:58:48,400
Speaker 11: they joined to.

4397
03:58:49,920 --> 03:58:52,280
Speaker 9: It's it's empowering, and then.

4398
03:58:52,200 --> 03:58:54,960
Speaker 11: It's devastating because it's just like they fought so hard

4399
03:58:54,960 --> 03:58:59,000
Speaker 11: and then they they were assassinated, literally they were murdered.

4400
03:59:00,440 --> 03:59:04,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's when especially when you consider that so many

4401
03:59:04,640 --> 03:59:07,840
Speaker 3: of these, like the women who fought against ISIS, right, like,

4402
03:59:08,680 --> 03:59:10,400
Speaker 3: and I think we could all probably understand where women

4403
03:59:10,440 --> 03:59:14,400
Speaker 3: would would want to do that, like wanted to create

4404
03:59:14,440 --> 03:59:16,200
Speaker 3: a place where young girls could grow up and be

4405
03:59:16,240 --> 03:59:18,120
Speaker 3: who they wanted to be and do what they wanted

4406
03:59:18,160 --> 03:59:23,640
Speaker 3: to do, and like not have to obviously, like cowtows

4407
03:59:23,680 --> 03:59:27,000
Speaker 3: that it's extremely violent, misogynous organization like ISIS, but also

4408
03:59:27,160 --> 03:59:29,960
Speaker 3: like not necessarily have to fight either, and you know,

4409
03:59:30,320 --> 03:59:32,880
Speaker 3: could be self realized and whatever way they wanted to.

4410
03:59:32,960 --> 03:59:36,400
Speaker 3: And so to see these people having achieved their goal

4411
03:59:36,640 --> 03:59:39,080
Speaker 3: largely of I guess I still exists, right, and I

4412
03:59:39,080 --> 03:59:41,920
Speaker 3: still continues to kill people. It killed ten people yesterday,

4413
03:59:43,640 --> 03:59:46,480
Speaker 3: but that's the eighth of August because you won't hear

4414
03:59:46,480 --> 03:59:51,040
Speaker 3: this today. But to see these people who have like

4415
03:59:51,120 --> 03:59:54,960
Speaker 3: successfully at least liberated the territory, and then their young

4416
03:59:55,000 --> 04:00:00,880
Speaker 3: women are still dying but not finding ISIS. But fink Turkey,

4417
04:00:01,000 --> 04:00:02,840
Speaker 3: I can go on and give like there are dozens

4418
04:00:02,880 --> 04:00:06,160
Speaker 3: of examples of this report another one I'll just give.

4419
04:00:06,200 --> 04:00:09,680
Speaker 3: In July twenty twenty two, there was a YPG commander

4420
04:00:09,720 --> 04:00:15,040
Speaker 3: called Raj Kabur and a fighter called Barin Botan, so

4421
04:00:16,120 --> 04:00:18,680
Speaker 3: one of them had been and then another one called

4422
04:00:18,840 --> 04:00:25,360
Speaker 3: another YPJ commander called Jian Tall Hidden Tall Hidden. So

4423
04:00:25,480 --> 04:00:28,360
Speaker 3: these two women have been involved in the fight against

4424
04:00:28,400 --> 04:00:34,400
Speaker 3: ISIS like from the beginning, having like liberated cities, liberated territory,

4425
04:00:34,440 --> 04:00:36,120
Speaker 3: and then they were with this young woman who was

4426
04:00:36,280 --> 04:00:40,320
Speaker 3: nineteen years old and had relatively recently joined the YPG

4427
04:00:40,560 --> 04:00:44,240
Speaker 3: right and was killed by a dreat strike. It's like

4428
04:00:44,320 --> 04:00:47,200
Speaker 3: it's particularly galling, I think for me at least two

4429
04:00:47,520 --> 04:00:50,560
Speaker 3: so that the YPG Information Office is someone that I

4430
04:00:50,680 --> 04:00:54,960
Speaker 3: communicate with, like for work stuff, and it's particularly galling

4431
04:00:55,040 --> 04:00:57,400
Speaker 3: to like wake up Brent and see that on your phone,

4432
04:00:58,280 --> 04:00:59,760
Speaker 3: like to get a message and look at a report

4433
04:00:59,800 --> 04:01:02,800
Speaker 3: see pitch of a car like blown to pieces. At

4434
04:01:02,800 --> 04:01:06,360
Speaker 3: the same time as like the directories to drowne the

4435
04:01:06,400 --> 04:01:09,400
Speaker 3: Turkey hassaulta Ukraine in large numbers, right, which has been

4436
04:01:09,560 --> 04:01:13,600
Speaker 3: hugely effective in destroying Russian armor and like it's.

4437
04:01:13,400 --> 04:01:16,160
Speaker 1: Curler on at least was it's it's it seems to

4438
04:01:16,240 --> 04:01:18,480
Speaker 1: not really work. I mean a lot of stuff has

4439
04:01:18,560 --> 04:01:23,000
Speaker 1: changed obviously, like new technology is extremely effective early on

4440
04:01:23,080 --> 04:01:25,360
Speaker 1: before there's countermeasures anyway, whatever, we don't need to get

4441
04:01:25,400 --> 04:01:26,040
Speaker 1: nerdy about this.

4442
04:01:26,960 --> 04:01:30,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it's certainly like in the first months of

4443
04:01:30,800 --> 04:01:34,040
Speaker 3: their war, like the war in Ukraine became like a meme.

4444
04:01:35,040 --> 04:01:38,680
Speaker 3: You can buy a stuffed birector on etsyo eBay, like

4445
04:01:38,720 --> 04:01:42,280
Speaker 3: like a soft toy, like a Teddy Bear. There are

4446
04:01:42,320 --> 04:01:44,960
Speaker 3: songs about it.

4447
04:01:44,880 --> 04:01:47,120
Speaker 1: It's not it's not great, Yeah it was, and it

4448
04:01:47,200 --> 04:01:49,680
Speaker 1: was one of those things where like obviously I was

4449
04:01:49,720 --> 04:01:54,360
Speaker 1: happy to see effective tools being used by the Ukrainians

4450
04:01:54,400 --> 04:01:57,200
Speaker 1: to like defend their home, yes, of course, but I'm

4451
04:01:57,240 --> 04:02:00,480
Speaker 1: not ever going to get up and stand the the

4452
04:02:00,520 --> 04:02:06,400
Speaker 1: Turkish defense industry or yeah, defense industry. And for the record,

4453
04:02:06,600 --> 04:02:08,960
Speaker 1: I feel the same way about like the people standing

4454
04:02:09,200 --> 04:02:13,000
Speaker 1: standing you know, different US defense contractors making stuff like

4455
04:02:13,360 --> 04:02:16,240
Speaker 1: you know, long range missile systems, Like no, I'm not

4456
04:02:16,600 --> 04:02:18,680
Speaker 1: I'm not really a fan of that, Like I get it.

4457
04:02:18,800 --> 04:02:21,960
Speaker 1: Sometimes you know, when you're being invaded, you use the

4458
04:02:22,000 --> 04:02:25,840
Speaker 1: tools available, But that doesn't mean we need to celebrate that.

4459
04:02:26,560 --> 04:02:29,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. I think the tools are largely kind of agnostic,

4460
04:02:30,280 --> 04:02:33,920
Speaker 3: and anyone who's sort of is making things to kill

4461
04:02:33,960 --> 04:02:36,960
Speaker 3: people purely for profit, it's not necessarily a good a

4462
04:02:37,000 --> 04:02:39,040
Speaker 3: good thing to do with your life, I guess, uh.

4463
04:02:39,280 --> 04:02:43,080
Speaker 3: And like, it's just troubling to me to see people

4464
04:02:43,160 --> 04:02:47,000
Speaker 3: like cheering this on without like it highlights one, like

4465
04:02:47,040 --> 04:02:50,680
Speaker 3: the way that people engage with conflict, especially online, especially

4466
04:02:50,720 --> 04:02:55,520
Speaker 3: in the US, which and yeah, it's not a computer game,

4467
04:02:55,760 --> 04:02:59,480
Speaker 3: it's someone's nineteen year old fucking daughter. It's someone's mum

4468
04:02:59,680 --> 04:03:02,440
Speaker 3: or sitta or brother or uncle or dad or the

4469
04:03:02,720 --> 04:03:03,720
Speaker 3: binary relative.

4470
04:03:04,400 --> 04:03:06,600
Speaker 11: The fact that you can buy like a stuffed fucking

4471
04:03:07,400 --> 04:03:11,360
Speaker 11: weapon like little drone thing on Ebays. It's it's just

4472
04:03:11,440 --> 04:03:14,840
Speaker 11: so disturbing. I really just don't like humans when I

4473
04:03:14,880 --> 04:03:15,440
Speaker 11: think about that.

4474
04:03:16,040 --> 04:03:19,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, I understand why it happens this way, and I

4475
04:03:19,760 --> 04:03:22,600
Speaker 1: understand why if your country is being invaded and you

4476
04:03:22,640 --> 04:03:25,760
Speaker 1: can get more support from the international community by leaning

4477
04:03:25,800 --> 04:03:27,880
Speaker 1: into this shit, you lean into this shit. But I

4478
04:03:27,880 --> 04:03:29,960
Speaker 1: don't like the idea of like some I don't know,

4479
04:03:30,280 --> 04:03:35,840
Speaker 1: fucking accountant in Iowa watching hundreds of videos of like

4480
04:03:35,920 --> 04:03:38,640
Speaker 1: Russian soldiers being killed and then like getting a fucking

4481
04:03:38,720 --> 04:03:44,240
Speaker 1: Lockheed Martin tattoo, like the like the like like turning

4482
04:03:44,840 --> 04:03:49,640
Speaker 1: turning your support for people you know in a deadly

4483
04:03:49,800 --> 04:03:52,840
Speaker 1: military conflict into like fandom, treating it the way you

4484
04:03:52,880 --> 04:03:56,800
Speaker 1: treat like a Marvel movie or whatever. I find not great.

4485
04:03:58,440 --> 04:04:01,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's just not like I understand why. Like I

4486
04:04:01,920 --> 04:04:04,560
Speaker 3: wouldn't blame anyone in Ukraine for being super excited about

4487
04:04:04,560 --> 04:04:07,520
Speaker 3: having bairaktars because it stops people burning their homes and

4488
04:04:07,600 --> 04:04:10,320
Speaker 3: killing their children. Yeah, like I would want that to no.

4489
04:04:10,560 --> 04:04:13,600
Speaker 1: Just like if you're if you're like I have a

4490
04:04:13,640 --> 04:04:16,960
Speaker 1: friend who I went like we were in fucking of

4491
04:04:17,040 --> 04:04:20,680
Speaker 1: Divka together, like sheltering with people from Russian shells and stuff,

4492
04:04:21,040 --> 04:04:23,480
Speaker 1: who then went on to join the Ukrainian military and

4493
04:04:23,520 --> 04:04:26,680
Speaker 1: has been fighting since the expanded invasion. If he wants

4494
04:04:26,720 --> 04:04:29,400
Speaker 1: to share videos or watch videos of like, you know,

4495
04:04:29,680 --> 04:04:33,640
Speaker 1: dead Russian soldiers from telegram, like that's war. It's unpleasant,

4496
04:04:33,640 --> 04:04:36,680
Speaker 1: but I get it. Like again, if you're some dude

4497
04:04:36,760 --> 04:04:40,920
Speaker 1: in fucking Wisconsin doing the same thing, I find that

4498
04:04:41,520 --> 04:04:45,040
Speaker 1: pretty unsettling, like, yeah, because you don't need to.

4499
04:04:45,480 --> 04:04:47,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, you don't need to. You don't need to

4500
04:04:47,800 --> 04:04:50,200
Speaker 3: dehumanize those people so you can kill them because you're

4501
04:04:50,200 --> 04:04:52,240
Speaker 3: not killing them. Yeah, but you just seem to have

4502
04:04:52,520 --> 04:04:56,880
Speaker 3: engaged in that same dehumanization which is necessary for people fighting,

4503
04:04:57,600 --> 04:04:59,840
Speaker 3: because I don't know, maybe you think you're helping.

4504
04:04:59,640 --> 04:05:02,760
Speaker 1: It's hard to shoot people otherwise, Like, yeah.

4505
04:05:03,480 --> 04:05:06,800
Speaker 3: There's a reason it's hard to fucking bayonet people, right,

4506
04:05:06,800 --> 04:05:09,240
Speaker 3: there's a reason that bayonet training is one of these

4507
04:05:09,240 --> 04:05:12,520
Speaker 3: things that's particularly just kind of it has to be violent.

4508
04:05:12,960 --> 04:05:15,880
Speaker 3: You have to be horrible, you know, like it's there's

4509
04:05:15,880 --> 04:05:20,360
Speaker 3: no nice way to stab someone. But the yeah, it

4510
04:05:20,400 --> 04:05:22,960
Speaker 3: doesn't mean that you need to tweet about it, especially

4511
04:05:23,000 --> 04:05:26,200
Speaker 3: folks who maybe aren't perhaptice on the ground familiar as

4512
04:05:26,240 --> 04:05:30,720
Speaker 3: what this looks like. So I wanted to maybe get

4513
04:05:30,760 --> 04:05:33,280
Speaker 3: into a little bit. And there are, as I said,

4514
04:05:33,320 --> 04:05:36,000
Speaker 3: dozens of these corone attacks. They really ramped up in

4515
04:05:36,080 --> 04:05:38,840
Speaker 3: early twenty twenty three, along with like a kind of

4516
04:05:38,880 --> 04:05:43,160
Speaker 3: a larger air offensive. Right, they continue to happen like

4517
04:05:43,360 --> 04:05:47,600
Speaker 3: almost weekly. If people want to, I guess keep tabs.

4518
04:05:47,720 --> 04:05:53,040
Speaker 3: YPJ info is the YPG's kind of public facing press website.

4519
04:05:53,480 --> 04:05:57,640
Speaker 3: Rosier Information Center is a good English language resource. Both

4520
04:05:57,640 --> 04:06:04,880
Speaker 3: of those you can find on X or if you

4521
04:06:04,880 --> 04:06:08,960
Speaker 3: you can also search of them website. We just say X.

4522
04:06:10,600 --> 04:06:16,400
Speaker 1: Absolutely nudge, yeah, yeah, X is not in fact gonna

4523
04:06:16,440 --> 04:06:16,960
Speaker 1: give it to.

4524
04:06:16,920 --> 04:06:22,280
Speaker 11: Us, only like you will understand that way that I

4525
04:06:22,440 --> 04:06:22,800
Speaker 11: like that.

4526
04:06:23,440 --> 04:06:27,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a narrow overlap there, buddy, Yeah, you shut

4527
04:06:27,120 --> 04:06:29,120
Speaker 3: the get there. Yeah, you know what is going to

4528
04:06:29,200 --> 04:06:32,520
Speaker 3: give it? And by it I mean the money that

4529
04:06:32,600 --> 04:06:37,520
Speaker 3: pays our wages to us. What is it, James, It's

4530
04:06:37,560 --> 04:06:39,360
Speaker 3: it's combination of products and services.

4531
04:06:40,040 --> 04:06:43,320
Speaker 1: Oh man, I love a good product, need to. I

4532
04:06:43,320 --> 04:06:46,400
Speaker 1: don't love services. Actually very anti service. But you know,

4533
04:06:46,520 --> 04:06:48,080
Speaker 1: we'll see, yeah, we'll see it.

4534
04:06:48,160 --> 04:06:51,480
Speaker 3: Might it might change your opinion, might be something amazing, unlikely,

4535
04:06:52,000 --> 04:06:57,000
Speaker 3: probably gold. But let's hear from the advertisers. All right,

4536
04:06:57,000 --> 04:06:59,280
Speaker 3: we're back and we hope you enjoyed those adverts as

4537
04:06:59,320 --> 04:07:02,000
Speaker 3: much as we do. So I want to talk about

4538
04:07:02,320 --> 04:07:07,840
Speaker 3: in the second half of the episode, why Turkey is

4539
04:07:09,240 --> 04:07:13,480
Speaker 3: using these drones to bomb people who, like we said,

4540
04:07:13,520 --> 04:07:18,400
Speaker 3: have fought and largely defeated the territorial Caliphate Ofvisis. I

4541
04:07:18,440 --> 04:07:21,200
Speaker 3: did want to bring up one more drone instant actually,

4542
04:07:21,240 --> 04:07:23,680
Speaker 3: which is particularly bad. So one of the things that

4543
04:07:23,720 --> 04:07:26,680
Speaker 3: you're often to see the SDF and specifically the YPG

4544
04:07:26,840 --> 04:07:30,200
Speaker 3: and the YPG kind of accused of is having child soldiers,

4545
04:07:30,200 --> 04:07:34,320
Speaker 3: are having recruiting people who are under the aged to fight.

4546
04:07:35,200 --> 04:07:37,880
Speaker 3: Part of a program they've implemented to stop this with

4547
04:07:38,480 --> 04:07:42,680
Speaker 3: consultation with the United Nations is building education centers. Right,

4548
04:07:43,480 --> 04:07:46,400
Speaker 3: I'm not going to comment morally on who should be

4549
04:07:46,440 --> 04:07:48,680
Speaker 3: fighting at what age, because I think it's one of

4550
04:07:48,760 --> 04:07:51,760
Speaker 3: judgment for us to make when like we GNATALIZI in

4551
04:07:51,800 --> 04:07:53,200
Speaker 3: the fucking street. Yeah, I.

4552
04:07:54,760 --> 04:07:56,480
Speaker 1: Look, I think there's a degree to which people are

4553
04:07:56,480 --> 04:07:58,880
Speaker 1: being unreasonable about this. I met a number of seventeen

4554
04:07:58,960 --> 04:08:01,680
Speaker 1: year olds. It's generally when people talk about child soldiers,

4555
04:08:01,720 --> 04:08:04,200
Speaker 1: they are talking about seventeen year olds. I have friends

4556
04:08:04,240 --> 04:08:07,720
Speaker 1: who joined the US Army when they were seventeen years old.

4557
04:08:08,120 --> 04:08:10,320
Speaker 1: Like I have friends who were learning how to drive

4558
04:08:10,360 --> 04:08:14,120
Speaker 1: a tank for the US military at age seventeen. And

4559
04:08:14,280 --> 04:08:18,120
Speaker 1: quite frankly, if you look at where like wars in

4560
04:08:18,280 --> 04:08:21,480
Speaker 1: history sixteen to twenty years old, that's most of the

4561
04:08:21,480 --> 04:08:23,400
Speaker 1: people who have fought most of the wars in most

4562
04:08:23,400 --> 04:08:27,440
Speaker 1: of history. That's like the way that it is. It's

4563
04:08:27,480 --> 04:08:30,920
Speaker 1: not pleasant. But like when we are talking like I

4564
04:08:31,000 --> 04:08:33,920
Speaker 1: certainly I would be very supportive of laws put in

4565
04:08:33,960 --> 04:08:36,920
Speaker 1: place in our country to raise the age at which

4566
04:08:36,960 --> 04:08:39,880
Speaker 1: people can join the military so that they are not

4567
04:08:40,120 --> 04:08:42,760
Speaker 1: young and not getting taken advantage of to as much

4568
04:08:42,760 --> 04:08:45,040
Speaker 1: of a degree. But we are not fighting in any

4569
04:08:45,080 --> 04:08:46,520
Speaker 1: conflicts for our survival.

4570
04:08:46,920 --> 04:08:49,320
Speaker 11: Yeah, I think people that point the finger and like

4571
04:08:49,360 --> 04:08:52,560
Speaker 11: talk about child soldiers whatever the shit and they're in,

4572
04:08:52,600 --> 04:08:56,360
Speaker 11: they are referencing like, yeah, basic teens. They have the

4573
04:08:56,400 --> 04:08:59,640
Speaker 11: privilege of doing that. They don't have to even think

4574
04:08:59,640 --> 04:09:02,840
Speaker 11: about protecting themselves or their family or whatever.

4575
04:09:02,880 --> 04:09:05,800
Speaker 9: I think when you are raised and.

4576
04:09:06,760 --> 04:09:09,160
Speaker 11: In like a situation of violence, like Palasine's a great

4577
04:09:09,200 --> 04:09:12,080
Speaker 11: example of that. You see like boys like trying to

4578
04:09:12,120 --> 04:09:16,960
Speaker 11: defend their country. It's like the same situation where there's

4579
04:09:17,000 --> 04:09:19,040
Speaker 11: you don't have the privilege of waiting until you're fucking

4580
04:09:19,040 --> 04:09:20,800
Speaker 11: twenty one or whatever. It's just like you have to

4581
04:09:21,360 --> 04:09:22,840
Speaker 11: you have to like protect yourself.

4582
04:09:23,480 --> 04:09:26,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not the it's not a situation you are

4583
04:09:26,320 --> 04:09:29,520
Speaker 1: not being It's not like again, it's not like it

4584
04:09:29,560 --> 04:09:32,160
Speaker 1: is often when we talk about child soldiers, like in

4585
04:09:32,240 --> 04:09:35,280
Speaker 1: the Liberian Civil War, right, where you've got kids being

4586
04:09:35,320 --> 04:09:38,160
Speaker 1: pulled in, you know, for the advantage of some warlord.

4587
04:09:38,320 --> 04:09:40,600
Speaker 1: Nor is it like in the United States where you

4588
04:09:40,640 --> 04:09:43,080
Speaker 1: have seventeen and eight year old eighteen year olds being

4589
04:09:43,080 --> 04:09:46,200
Speaker 1: recruited in a predatory way off and by military recruiters

4590
04:09:47,080 --> 04:09:50,760
Speaker 1: and sent overseas in conflicts that are not necessary. We

4591
04:09:50,840 --> 04:09:55,360
Speaker 1: are talking about like isis is five blocks away, and

4592
04:09:56,040 --> 04:09:58,120
Speaker 1: like God knows what they'll do to my mom and

4593
04:09:58,160 --> 04:10:00,520
Speaker 1: my sister if they take over, Like I'm going to

4594
04:10:00,520 --> 04:10:01,520
Speaker 1: pick up a fucking.

4595
04:10:01,280 --> 04:10:03,640
Speaker 3: Gun, you know what else? What else are you going

4596
04:10:03,680 --> 04:10:03,800
Speaker 3: to do?

4597
04:10:03,880 --> 04:10:05,840
Speaker 1: That's the that's the world. Like they're living in a

4598
04:10:05,880 --> 04:10:09,280
Speaker 1: different set of realities than we are.

4599
04:10:09,480 --> 04:10:11,720
Speaker 11: Yeah, and anyone that places judgment on that is just

4600
04:10:11,880 --> 04:10:15,760
Speaker 11: ignorant and non understanding of the reality of the world.

4601
04:10:15,760 --> 04:10:17,040
Speaker 9: They're just like in their little bubble.

4602
04:10:18,360 --> 04:10:18,560
Speaker 5: Yeah.

4603
04:10:18,600 --> 04:10:22,000
Speaker 3: So on August the eighteenth, twenty twenty two, Turkish drone

4604
04:10:22,360 --> 04:10:27,480
Speaker 3: targeted one of these un affiliated education centers. Right, It

4605
04:10:27,600 --> 04:10:32,320
Speaker 3: was two kilometers from the US coalition base, and targeted

4606
04:10:32,320 --> 04:10:36,880
Speaker 3: group of teenage girls playing volleyball. It's very hard to

4607
04:10:36,960 --> 04:10:41,400
Speaker 3: see these education centers as like anywhere in military target right,

4608
04:10:41,560 --> 04:10:45,400
Speaker 3: They're literally designed to divert young people from becoming fighters

4609
04:10:46,240 --> 04:10:49,760
Speaker 3: and to you know, they're set up with the consultation

4610
04:10:49,880 --> 04:10:52,760
Speaker 3: United Nations, with the you know, like with as much

4611
04:10:52,840 --> 04:10:54,960
Speaker 3: oversight as one can expect an area which is in

4612
04:10:54,960 --> 04:10:58,640
Speaker 3: the middle of a civil war and to be drone

4613
04:10:58,680 --> 04:11:02,840
Speaker 3: striking schools. It's pretty callous. It's also worth noting that,

4614
04:11:02,920 --> 04:11:05,800
Speaker 3: like a phraser constantly gets thrown around a lot in

4615
04:11:05,800 --> 04:11:07,880
Speaker 3: discussion about the Middle East. Right, it's the only democracy

4616
04:11:07,880 --> 04:11:12,240
Speaker 3: in the Middle East, and it's let me tell you,

4617
04:11:12,640 --> 04:11:14,960
Speaker 3: it's not normally referring to this part of the world.

4618
04:11:15,640 --> 04:11:21,640
Speaker 3: It's referring to Israel, and a I don't think that's

4619
04:11:21,680 --> 04:11:28,440
Speaker 3: true Israel, Yeah, it does it what fucking definitely, Well,

4620
04:11:28,520 --> 04:11:33,480
Speaker 3: democracy is an extremely nebulous concept. So like, this is

4621
04:11:33,520 --> 04:11:37,280
Speaker 3: this scenaria where people's votes have a substantive impact on

4622
04:11:37,320 --> 04:11:40,400
Speaker 3: how their lives lives, certainly more so than people who

4623
04:11:40,520 --> 04:11:42,040
Speaker 3: are Arabs in Israel.

4624
04:11:43,080 --> 04:11:47,680
Speaker 1: And Kurds in southern Turkey, Sirius in Syria.

4625
04:11:47,880 --> 04:11:56,080
Speaker 3: Like yeah, yep, yeah, yes exactly, people in parts of

4626
04:11:56,160 --> 04:11:58,240
Speaker 3: Iran like Iraqi.

4627
04:11:58,520 --> 04:12:02,160
Speaker 1: People in northern or in in the Baghdad government controlled

4628
04:12:02,200 --> 04:12:03,800
Speaker 1: junks of Iraq for that matter.

4629
04:12:04,440 --> 04:12:09,040
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, like all over, right, like, so, this isn't

4630
04:12:09,080 --> 04:12:11,760
Speaker 3: just an attack on like individual women. It's an attack

4631
04:12:11,800 --> 04:12:15,080
Speaker 3: on a state which is genuinely at least attempting to

4632
04:12:15,280 --> 04:12:19,880
Speaker 3: establish a new form of democracy, right, like a more participatory,

4633
04:12:20,520 --> 04:12:24,960
Speaker 3: more horizontally organized democracy. It's an attack on a state

4634
04:12:24,960 --> 04:12:27,920
Speaker 3: in the Middle East which is like anti patriarchal, which

4635
04:12:28,640 --> 04:12:31,720
Speaker 3: is something that we don't have here in the United States. Right,

4636
04:12:31,840 --> 04:12:35,920
Speaker 3: Like it's it's like we have still failed to have

4637
04:12:36,000 --> 04:12:39,920
Speaker 3: a woman being president, Like it's it's an attack on

4638
04:12:39,960 --> 04:12:43,400
Speaker 3: these things which most decent human beings should be able

4639
04:12:43,440 --> 04:12:47,080
Speaker 3: to get behind. These attacks also don't just affect the

4640
04:12:47,120 --> 04:12:49,600
Speaker 3: people who are killed, right. They continue to displace families,

4641
04:12:49,640 --> 04:12:52,840
Speaker 3: They contribute to fuel shortages, they create power cuts, they

4642
04:12:52,880 --> 04:12:56,400
Speaker 3: suspend schools, they stop aid organizations working in the area

4643
04:12:56,440 --> 04:12:58,160
Speaker 3: because it's too high risk, or they perceive it to

4644
04:12:58,160 --> 04:13:03,520
Speaker 3: be too high risk, and they stop the SDF continuing

4645
04:13:03,680 --> 04:13:08,440
Speaker 3: their operations against ISIS. Right Like, ISIS, as I said,

4646
04:13:08,520 --> 04:13:12,160
Speaker 3: continue to exist. They have sleeper cells. There was an

4647
04:13:12,200 --> 04:13:15,400
Speaker 3: attempted prison break last year. Two of the women from

4648
04:13:15,440 --> 04:13:19,120
Speaker 3: the YPG who had fought to stop those ISIS prisoners

4649
04:13:19,120 --> 04:13:21,160
Speaker 3: breaking out of their prison were later killed in the

4650
04:13:21,240 --> 04:13:25,320
Speaker 3: drone strike. It's very hard to see this as not

4651
04:13:25,680 --> 04:13:30,600
Speaker 3: helping that like that ISIS insurgency that they're fighting and

4652
04:13:30,680 --> 04:13:33,920
Speaker 3: hindering their operations. And I'm not just saying this based

4653
04:13:33,960 --> 04:13:37,640
Speaker 3: on sources that are there Roger Information Center, are people

4654
04:13:37,680 --> 04:13:41,080
Speaker 3: in their anes, but this is the policy of the

4655
04:13:41,160 --> 04:13:43,920
Speaker 3: United States. Right before we started this, I looked up

4656
04:13:43,960 --> 04:13:47,680
Speaker 3: some of the Inspector General's reports from Operation Inherent Resolve,

4657
04:13:47,680 --> 04:13:50,840
Speaker 3: which is the United States operation to lead a coalition

4658
04:13:50,880 --> 04:13:53,600
Speaker 3: which includes the SDF against ISIS, and they were talking

4659
04:13:53,600 --> 04:13:56,520
Speaker 3: about how the sdf's operations are hindered because they keep

4660
04:13:56,600 --> 04:14:00,160
Speaker 3: getting shot by durants, right, and that there's not much

4661
04:14:00,840 --> 04:14:05,200
Speaker 3: that they can do about it. Right, Unlike like Ukraine,

4662
04:14:05,240 --> 04:14:08,520
Speaker 3: we're not sending a ton of surface to air missiles

4663
04:14:08,600 --> 04:14:11,640
Speaker 3: or like things that you could use to defend yourself

4664
04:14:11,640 --> 04:14:14,400
Speaker 3: against drones, right, not that it's very easy to defend

4665
04:14:14,440 --> 04:14:19,120
Speaker 3: yourself against the drone. So why is Turkey doing this?

4666
04:14:19,720 --> 04:14:22,680
Speaker 3: I think thirsty because, as Robert said, it sees SDF

4667
04:14:22,680 --> 04:14:25,440
Speaker 3: and the PKK is the same thing, right, And so

4668
04:14:25,800 --> 04:14:29,680
Speaker 3: the PKK mostly operates, like Robert said, in the mountains

4669
04:14:29,680 --> 04:14:33,800
Speaker 3: of southeastern Turkey, and it's been fighting this asymmetrical war

4670
04:14:33,880 --> 04:14:39,160
Speaker 3: against the Turkish state since nineteen eighty four. So Urdigan

4671
04:14:39,360 --> 04:14:43,520
Speaker 3: as Urdigan is the president of Turkey, right. He entered

4672
04:14:43,520 --> 04:14:46,360
Speaker 3: off his in two thousand and three, and he's sort

4673
04:14:46,360 --> 04:14:49,880
Speaker 3: of pivoted on Turkish issues and Kurdish issues. Sorry, he

4674
04:14:50,880 --> 04:14:54,560
Speaker 3: continues to be Turkish. But he was initially in favor

4675
04:14:54,600 --> 04:14:56,920
Speaker 3: of like a negotiated peace with the PKK. In his

4676
04:14:57,000 --> 04:15:01,800
Speaker 3: early years included like propose for linguistic autonomy, the right

4677
04:15:01,840 --> 04:15:05,200
Speaker 3: to a Kurdish press, and even like the return of

4678
04:15:05,280 --> 04:15:09,600
Speaker 3: Kurdish place names, which is a big deal still yeah, right, Yeah,

4679
04:15:09,840 --> 04:15:15,080
Speaker 3: you'll see like comishlo or al chemishli, like one being

4680
04:15:15,120 --> 04:15:18,360
Speaker 3: Arab their latter being Arabic, that the form of being Kurdish.

4681
04:15:18,000 --> 04:15:20,880
Speaker 11: Right, Yeah, I mean it's just it's a huge deal

4682
04:15:20,920 --> 04:15:23,120
Speaker 11: because you're not just killing like people, you're killing a

4683
04:15:23,880 --> 04:15:27,880
Speaker 11: culture that's like in like it's not it's still like

4684
04:15:27,920 --> 04:15:29,840
Speaker 11: a different word to say extinct, like it's in danger

4685
04:15:29,920 --> 04:15:31,440
Speaker 11: of like not being there if it's not for the

4686
04:15:31,440 --> 04:15:34,920
Speaker 11: people protecting it. Right, And I think it's like a

4687
04:15:35,040 --> 04:15:38,080
Speaker 11: classic tactic to stop people from using their language or

4688
04:15:38,840 --> 04:15:41,240
Speaker 11: customs or whatever, to just like try to erase them

4689
04:15:41,280 --> 04:15:43,640
Speaker 11: and like make them Turk or whatever they want them

4690
04:15:43,680 --> 04:15:47,680
Speaker 11: to be. And so the proposal of that, I think

4691
04:15:47,760 --> 04:15:50,800
Speaker 11: is significant. But then obviously the follow through is a

4692
04:15:50,840 --> 04:15:52,360
Speaker 11: different story.

4693
04:15:52,520 --> 04:15:54,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, the follow through is not there, right, So after

4694
04:15:55,080 --> 04:15:58,040
Speaker 3: twenty fifteen, he's really pivoted and he's pursued like a

4695
04:15:58,080 --> 04:16:02,240
Speaker 3: really violent antique Kurdish policy. And it's worth noting, as

4696
04:16:02,280 --> 04:16:04,360
Speaker 3: you said, that for much of the twentieth century, the

4697
04:16:04,400 --> 04:16:07,120
Speaker 3: Turkey state denied the existence of Kurdish people together. They

4698
04:16:07,120 --> 04:16:10,680
Speaker 3: call them mountain Turks in even in March twenty twenty one,

4699
04:16:10,760 --> 04:16:13,680
Speaker 3: the Turkish Military of Education released a book in the

4700
04:16:13,800 --> 04:16:20,200
Speaker 3: Kurdish majority. It's a province called Diabakir. Diabakir, I guess

4701
04:16:20,000 --> 04:16:23,560
Speaker 3: it's Turkish, which it doesn't mention Kurds. It's a Kurlish

4702
04:16:23,600 --> 04:16:28,040
Speaker 3: majority province. It doesn't mention the Kurdish language. It claims

4703
04:16:28,200 --> 04:16:33,080
Speaker 3: that it's a Turkish dialect that's spoken there. They changed

4704
04:16:33,080 --> 04:16:35,560
Speaker 3: the name in August twenty twenty one of seventeenth century

4705
04:16:35,600 --> 04:16:40,040
Speaker 3: Mosque from the words translating from the Turkish to the

4706
04:16:40,080 --> 04:16:43,760
Speaker 3: Kurds Mosque, and they call it the Turks Mosque. In

4707
04:16:43,800 --> 04:16:48,960
Speaker 3: twenty twenty three, Turkey dropped its objection. So subjection is

4708
04:16:49,000 --> 04:16:51,680
Speaker 3: an effective vito right to Finland and Sweden joining NATO

4709
04:16:52,360 --> 04:16:54,560
Speaker 3: when the latter pledged to devote more attention to the

4710
04:16:54,560 --> 04:16:57,680
Speaker 3: PKK and effectively end its decades old tradition as giving

4711
04:16:57,720 --> 04:17:02,360
Speaker 3: protection an asylum to Kurdish refugees. So if people aren't familiar,

4712
04:17:02,360 --> 04:17:04,440
Speaker 3: Sweden has been a country that's offered asylum to a

4713
04:17:04,960 --> 04:17:07,320
Speaker 3: lot of different groups of people, Like I have a

4714
04:17:07,320 --> 04:17:10,240
Speaker 3: lot of friends from various stories I've done all over

4715
04:17:10,280 --> 04:17:12,960
Speaker 3: the world who have ended up living in Sweden, and

4716
04:17:14,240 --> 04:17:16,240
Speaker 3: Curtish people are among those people, right who have found

4717
04:17:16,280 --> 04:17:19,600
Speaker 3: a home and a safe place in Sweden. So encouraging

4718
04:17:19,600 --> 04:17:23,880
Speaker 3: Sweden to not do that gives people one less safe

4719
04:17:23,920 --> 04:17:27,600
Speaker 3: place to go, right, Yeah, and this was kind of

4720
04:17:27,680 --> 04:17:30,720
Speaker 3: Turkey's like cost of entry for those people into NATO. Now,

4721
04:17:30,720 --> 04:17:34,600
Speaker 3: obviously there's a reason that Sweden and Finland want to

4722
04:17:34,640 --> 04:17:37,680
Speaker 3: join NATO, right, and that's the Russia is like right

4723
04:17:37,720 --> 04:17:42,440
Speaker 3: there and has been doing some invasion recently, and so

4724
04:17:42,480 --> 04:17:44,880
Speaker 3: they want that as kind of mutual aid, that mutual defense,

4725
04:17:45,240 --> 04:17:48,240
Speaker 3: and so they're being forced to give up this very

4726
04:17:48,280 --> 04:17:51,960
Speaker 3: reasonable policy of offering people asylum. Hi, everyone, it's me

4727
04:17:52,240 --> 04:17:55,040
Speaker 3: James and I am back after what I hope was

4728
04:17:55,080 --> 04:17:59,920
Speaker 3: a fruitful and enjoyable advertising break for you. It is

4729
04:18:00,280 --> 04:18:02,040
Speaker 3: just me, and the reason for that is that someone

4730
04:18:02,040 --> 04:18:07,000
Speaker 3: outside is currently severing my telephone cable, judging by what

4731
04:18:07,080 --> 04:18:08,640
Speaker 3: I can hear and the fact that I no longer

4732
04:18:08,760 --> 04:18:12,040
Speaker 3: have the Internet. So the second part of this episode

4733
04:18:12,080 --> 04:18:15,400
Speaker 3: will be me reading my script by myself without the

4734
04:18:15,480 --> 04:18:19,880
Speaker 3: interesting and often entertaining input of my colleagues. So sorry

4735
04:18:19,920 --> 04:18:22,600
Speaker 3: about that, but you will just have to make do.

4736
04:18:23,360 --> 04:18:26,600
Speaker 3: Turkey's been involved in a Syrian civil war since the beginning. Initially,

4737
04:18:26,640 --> 04:18:29,600
Speaker 3: it armed and equipped the Anti Assad FSA, but in

4738
04:18:29,640 --> 04:18:32,760
Speaker 3: August twenty sixteen it began a direct occupation of parts

4739
04:18:32,760 --> 04:18:37,160
Speaker 3: of northern Syria under Operation Euphrates Shield. In twenty seventeen,

4740
04:18:37,240 --> 04:18:40,320
Speaker 3: it facilitated the establishment of the Syrian National Army in

4741
04:18:40,360 --> 04:18:44,360
Speaker 3: the Syrian Entering Government, which it finances. Turkey has accused

4742
04:18:44,360 --> 04:18:47,880
Speaker 3: of Syrian Democratic forces, to which the YPG and YPGA belong,

4743
04:18:48,400 --> 04:18:52,440
Speaker 3: of quote seizing and ethnically cleansing territories which don't belong

4744
04:18:52,480 --> 04:18:56,200
Speaker 3: to Kurds. There isn't really any credible evidence for this,

4745
04:18:56,320 --> 04:19:00,120
Speaker 3: and the UN has refuted these claims. Some people have

4746
04:19:00,120 --> 04:19:03,280
Speaker 3: have moved right, like as happens in many conflicts, but

4747
04:19:03,640 --> 04:19:07,120
Speaker 3: the SMI saw was like twenty five families. Erligan has

4748
04:19:07,160 --> 04:19:09,640
Speaker 3: openly expressed a sentiment that Kurdish people don't belong in

4749
04:19:09,680 --> 04:19:12,840
Speaker 3: North and East Syria, saying these areas are not suitable

4750
04:19:12,840 --> 04:19:16,560
Speaker 3: for the lifestyle of Kurds because these areas of virtually desert,

4751
04:19:17,720 --> 04:19:22,880
Speaker 3: deportations of Syrians who have been who have sought refuge

4752
04:19:22,880 --> 04:19:24,800
Speaker 3: in Turkey. Right, so people from Syria who have fled

4753
04:19:24,840 --> 04:19:27,440
Speaker 3: the civil war. But three and just over three and

4754
04:19:27,480 --> 04:19:31,720
Speaker 3: a half million people are living in Turkey. Right, Turkey

4755
04:19:31,760 --> 04:19:33,960
Speaker 3: has to Cloud's intention to move one million of these

4756
04:19:33,960 --> 04:19:37,680
Speaker 3: people back to Syria, and it has already begun moving

4757
04:19:37,720 --> 04:19:40,480
Speaker 3: these people back to northwest Syria in the area as

4758
04:19:40,520 --> 04:19:41,160
Speaker 3: it occupies.

4759
04:19:41,240 --> 04:19:41,440
Speaker 5: Right.

4760
04:19:42,880 --> 04:19:44,720
Speaker 3: The US State Department in a press conference on the

4761
04:19:44,760 --> 04:19:48,480
Speaker 3: fourth of August deny that this constituted a demographic change.

4762
04:19:48,880 --> 04:19:51,280
Speaker 3: But I think that that's very heavily disputed by people

4763
04:19:51,360 --> 04:19:54,080
Speaker 3: on the ground. Certainly, the YPJA and the YPG would

4764
04:19:54,080 --> 04:19:58,960
Speaker 3: dispute that right that the Kurdish people who have been

4765
04:19:59,040 --> 04:20:01,960
Speaker 3: driven out of some of the Turkey occupies are being

4766
04:20:02,080 --> 04:20:04,600
Speaker 3: replaced by these people that are being moved back in

4767
04:20:04,680 --> 04:20:08,240
Speaker 3: by Turkey. Turkey was of course the entry point for

4768
04:20:08,320 --> 04:20:10,040
Speaker 3: much of the weaponry and many of the people who

4769
04:20:10,120 --> 04:20:15,160
Speaker 3: joined ISIS in Syria. Foreign Policy the Publication has estimated

4770
04:20:15,160 --> 04:20:17,920
Speaker 3: that more than thirty thousand people across Turkey along the

4771
04:20:17,960 --> 04:20:21,920
Speaker 3: so called Jihadi Highway. Later Turkey clamped down on this

4772
04:20:21,960 --> 04:20:25,880
Speaker 3: a bit, but certainly in my coverage of the smuggling

4773
04:20:26,000 --> 04:20:30,720
Speaker 3: of weapons and equipment to ISIS, they were going through Turkey.

4774
04:20:31,240 --> 04:20:34,560
Speaker 3: Turkey was also directly engaged with the defeat of ISIS

4775
04:20:34,600 --> 04:20:39,760
Speaker 3: right Turk Turkey's troops for ISIS in parts of northern Syria. Meanwhile,

4776
04:20:39,920 --> 04:20:42,720
Speaker 3: Turkey is also enforced an economic blockade of the Autonomous

4777
04:20:42,760 --> 04:20:46,800
Speaker 3: Area of Northeast Syria, and it's even restricted water flowing

4778
04:20:46,840 --> 04:20:50,480
Speaker 3: into the region. Right, So, at some point weapons and

4779
04:20:50,600 --> 04:20:53,400
Speaker 3: humans have flowed through Turkey to ISIS, and at this

4780
04:20:53,440 --> 04:20:57,080
Speaker 3: point water is not flowing in sufficient quantities through Turkey

4781
04:20:57,120 --> 04:21:00,320
Speaker 3: to the Autonomous Area of North and East Syria. And

4782
04:21:00,800 --> 04:21:05,440
Speaker 3: twenty eighteen, Turkey started what's called Operation Olive Branch. It's

4783
04:21:05,440 --> 04:21:08,480
Speaker 3: a military operation in which Turkish and Syrian National Army

4784
04:21:08,480 --> 04:21:11,800
Speaker 3: forces took control as the city of Afrin. The assault

4785
04:21:12,040 --> 04:21:15,600
Speaker 3: included the alleged use of chemical gas, shelling of civilian areas,

4786
04:21:15,640 --> 04:21:19,520
Speaker 3: and shooting of fleeing refugees. Kurdish shrine flags, cultural and

4787
04:21:19,600 --> 04:21:23,000
Speaker 3: historical sites were targeted destroyed by Turkish military forces. A

4788
04:21:23,120 --> 04:21:27,800
Speaker 3: hospital was bombed. Reporters Without Borders noted that reporting on

4789
04:21:27,840 --> 04:21:30,760
Speaker 3: the conflict had been handstrung by the Turkish government and

4790
04:21:30,840 --> 04:21:33,600
Speaker 3: more than thirty thousand Kurdish people have been displaced and

4791
04:21:33,640 --> 04:21:37,080
Speaker 3: their homes have been taken by those relocated refugees who

4792
04:21:37,120 --> 04:21:39,920
Speaker 3: we spoke about. Olive arms in the area have been

4793
04:21:39,960 --> 04:21:42,800
Speaker 3: seized and then leased to fund the operation of the

4794
04:21:42,840 --> 04:21:46,640
Speaker 3: pro Turkish Syrian National Army. The Syrian Observatory for Human

4795
04:21:46,720 --> 04:21:49,720
Speaker 3: Rights has documented these forces threatening to be head Kurds,

4796
04:21:50,120 --> 04:21:53,200
Speaker 3: and The Independent, that's the newspaper, has noted that some

4797
04:21:53,200 --> 04:21:56,400
Speaker 3: of the people fighting alongside the SNA are themselves former

4798
04:21:56,440 --> 04:22:01,000
Speaker 3: cardrids of Isis. In its reporting, the Independent reported that

4799
04:22:01,080 --> 04:22:04,880
Speaker 3: and I quote video posted online shows three uniformed Jahadis

4800
04:22:04,920 --> 04:22:08,080
Speaker 3: singing a song in praise of their past battles, and

4801
04:22:08,280 --> 04:22:12,640
Speaker 3: it says, quote how we were steadfast in Grossny, that's

4802
04:22:12,640 --> 04:22:17,240
Speaker 3: in Chezhnir, Dakistan, and we took the Tora Bora. That's

4803
04:22:17,280 --> 04:22:20,880
Speaker 3: Tora Bora's cave complex, formerly the headquarters of Osama bin Laden,

4804
04:22:21,800 --> 04:22:25,080
Speaker 3: and now Afrien is calling to us. There's the song

4805
04:22:25,160 --> 04:22:29,680
Speaker 3: they were singing, right, that's suggesting that they're sort of

4806
04:22:29,760 --> 04:22:32,440
Speaker 3: a fight. There's casting this in in a long line

4807
04:22:32,600 --> 04:22:35,840
Speaker 3: of these battles that have been fought by these various

4808
04:22:35,880 --> 04:22:38,760
Speaker 3: I guess Islamist groups, just to be super clear on

4809
04:22:38,800 --> 04:22:42,840
Speaker 3: Islamist versus Islamic, because I don't want people to confuse

4810
04:22:43,000 --> 04:22:46,560
Speaker 3: the two things. One is a political outlook, right of

4811
04:22:46,640 --> 04:22:50,160
Speaker 3: being an Islamist is a political outlook in it it

4812
04:22:50,200 --> 04:22:54,600
Speaker 3: focuses on, It uses an interpretation of Islam, which is

4813
04:22:54,640 --> 04:22:57,920
Speaker 3: certainly not the mainstream one. It's not my place to

4814
04:22:57,920 --> 04:23:00,000
Speaker 3: say whether or not it's a correct one, but it's

4815
04:23:00,000 --> 04:23:01,800
Speaker 3: certainly not the one that most Muslims in the world

4816
04:23:01,880 --> 04:23:05,680
Speaker 3: agree with. And it's the interpretation of that faith that

4817
04:23:05,720 --> 04:23:09,600
Speaker 3: you'll have seen with groups like ISIS and al Qaida. Right,

4818
04:23:10,320 --> 04:23:13,120
Speaker 3: But that is not to say by any means that

4819
04:23:13,160 --> 04:23:15,960
Speaker 3: all Muslim people agree with this, because they don't. There

4820
04:23:16,040 --> 04:23:19,320
Speaker 3: are Muslim people, many thousand, hundred and thousand of them

4821
04:23:19,400 --> 04:23:23,440
Speaker 3: who have been targeted killed by these people, right, And

4822
04:23:23,600 --> 04:23:26,040
Speaker 3: just wanted to be super clear on that distinction. The

4823
04:23:26,080 --> 04:23:28,600
Speaker 3: Syrian Observatory for Human Rights has also noted members of

4824
04:23:28,600 --> 04:23:31,320
Speaker 3: the Turkish fascist group the Gray Wolves, fighting alongside the

4825
04:23:31,440 --> 04:23:35,880
Speaker 3: SNA SO standing in the United States, it is easy

4826
04:23:35,920 --> 04:23:40,680
Speaker 3: to see this Turkish operation as a consequence of Trump's

4827
04:23:40,760 --> 04:23:44,440
Speaker 3: choice to abandon the SDF and the people who defeated ISIS,

4828
04:23:44,480 --> 04:23:47,080
Speaker 3: and to a large degree it is, but it also

4829
04:23:47,160 --> 04:23:50,040
Speaker 3: represents a long term goal of verdigans Turkey, which is

4830
04:23:50,080 --> 04:23:52,240
Speaker 3: tried without success to get support for its plans to

4831
04:23:52,240 --> 04:23:54,440
Speaker 3: build a buffer zone thirty kilometers deep a long its

4832
04:23:54,440 --> 04:23:56,800
Speaker 3: border with Syria, and to fill that buffer zone with

4833
04:23:56,920 --> 04:24:01,280
Speaker 3: Syrian refugees who increasingly end up in Turkey. In particular,

4834
04:24:01,640 --> 04:24:06,200
Speaker 3: Turkey has objected to plans by the United States train

4835
04:24:06,240 --> 04:24:10,360
Speaker 3: and equip for thirty thousand person strong border force. This

4836
04:24:10,440 --> 04:24:13,080
Speaker 3: went through several different naming iterations. It's don't really matter,

4837
04:24:13,160 --> 04:24:17,320
Speaker 3: it's a border force. Right before the attack, Russian military

4838
04:24:17,360 --> 04:24:20,240
Speaker 3: officials proposed handing over a freeing to a SAD as

4839
04:24:20,280 --> 04:24:23,200
Speaker 3: a compromise. So we haven't talked about Russia much. Robert

4840
04:24:23,200 --> 04:24:26,600
Speaker 3: talks about this in his series, But Russia is in

4841
04:24:26,680 --> 04:24:32,280
Speaker 3: Syria as an ally of the Aside regime, and it

4842
04:24:32,520 --> 04:24:35,720
Speaker 3: has sort of acted as a go between between the

4843
04:24:35,800 --> 04:24:39,200
Speaker 3: SDF and the Side regime, and it has proposed in

4844
04:24:39,240 --> 04:24:44,560
Speaker 3: this instance right that the SDF withdraw from a freeing,

4845
04:24:44,640 --> 04:24:48,960
Speaker 3: which is the area that Turkey invaded an operation out

4846
04:24:49,000 --> 04:24:50,800
Speaker 3: of Branch of twenty eighteen, and it said, if you

4847
04:24:50,800 --> 04:24:52,480
Speaker 3: guys put out and you hand us over to a SAD,

4848
04:24:52,520 --> 04:24:55,240
Speaker 3: the Turks won't invade, they won't directly take on a

4849
04:24:55,320 --> 04:25:01,760
Speaker 3: SAD like that. The SDF refused. Right authorities are in

4850
04:25:01,800 --> 04:25:06,160
Speaker 3: a very tense relationship with Damascus, which is where Asad's

4851
04:25:06,200 --> 04:25:09,560
Speaker 3: government is based. Right, they've both received aid from them,

4852
04:25:09,600 --> 04:25:13,080
Speaker 3: have been attacked by them. After they were abandoned by

4853
04:25:13,080 --> 04:25:17,320
Speaker 3: the US and Russia, and they knew that Turkey Russia.

4854
04:25:17,440 --> 04:25:19,800
Speaker 3: Russia was aware that Turkey had plans to invade right

4855
04:25:19,840 --> 04:25:22,440
Speaker 3: and obviously didn't do anything to stop it. So they

4856
04:25:22,760 --> 04:25:26,040
Speaker 3: these SDF felt that they were abandoned by US and Russia,

4857
04:25:26,040 --> 04:25:28,400
Speaker 3: with very very good reason to feel that way. The

4858
04:25:28,600 --> 04:25:30,560
Speaker 3: A and E s scrambled to find new ally to

4859
04:25:30,600 --> 04:25:32,880
Speaker 3: protect them, and they found one in the Side government.

4860
04:25:33,920 --> 04:25:36,280
Speaker 3: This wasn't like, I don't think a choice that they

4861
04:25:36,360 --> 04:25:39,080
Speaker 3: wanted to make. I think the rest of the worldn't

4862
04:25:39,160 --> 04:25:42,960
Speaker 3: leave with many options. So I'm quoting here from most

4863
04:25:43,040 --> 04:25:45,960
Speaker 3: Luma Beidi, the SDFS commander in chief. He wrote an

4864
04:25:45,960 --> 04:25:49,280
Speaker 3: OpEd and foreign policy. It'll be linked in our sources

4865
04:25:49,320 --> 04:25:51,800
Speaker 3: at the end of the month. If we have to

4866
04:25:51,880 --> 04:25:55,360
Speaker 3: choose compromise in genocide, we will choose our people, he said.

4867
04:25:56,560 --> 04:25:59,640
Speaker 3: Numerous fighters who for ISIS and foreign volunteers have died

4868
04:25:59,680 --> 04:26:04,280
Speaker 3: in a so in that initial operation right when the

4869
04:26:04,560 --> 04:26:10,280
Speaker 3: SDF opposed Turkish invasion, numerous people died. One of them

4870
04:26:10,360 --> 04:26:13,280
Speaker 3: was a Britain named Anna Campbell. As she went by

4871
04:26:13,400 --> 04:26:17,200
Speaker 3: Helene Kera coox. I matter fuck that pronunciation of but

4872
04:26:18,240 --> 04:26:21,600
Speaker 3: not my attempt to be disrespectful I have. She was

4873
04:26:21,680 --> 04:26:24,840
Speaker 3: killed by Turkish Michelle and Afree and her father, Dirk Campbell,

4874
04:26:25,360 --> 04:26:28,240
Speaker 3: has been campaigning ever since tav his daughter's remains returned.

4875
04:26:28,640 --> 04:26:31,200
Speaker 3: His case remains with the courts and has been entirely

4876
04:26:31,280 --> 04:26:34,800
Speaker 3: crowd funded. He submitted a claim to the European Court

4877
04:26:34,800 --> 04:26:37,200
Speaker 3: of Human Rights after hearing nothing from the Turkish courts,

4878
04:26:37,200 --> 04:26:39,280
Speaker 3: and when he did that, the Turkish courtse picked up

4879
04:26:39,280 --> 04:26:42,080
Speaker 3: the case he'd submitted there. You can also find a

4880
04:26:42,120 --> 04:26:45,800
Speaker 3: link to this in the sources, but it's crowdjustice dot com,

4881
04:26:45,840 --> 04:26:49,920
Speaker 3: slash case slash help Hyphen bring hyphen Anna Hyphen home.

4882
04:26:50,640 --> 04:26:52,480
Speaker 3: They've raised all the money they need her at the moment,

4883
04:26:52,520 --> 04:26:55,720
Speaker 3: but doubtless they will need more in the future. So

4884
04:26:56,560 --> 04:26:58,720
Speaker 3: where does all this leave the people of North and

4885
04:26:58,760 --> 04:26:59,320
Speaker 3: East Syria?

4886
04:26:59,440 --> 04:26:59,560
Speaker 5: Right?

4887
04:26:59,640 --> 04:27:06,680
Speaker 3: These are people who have been impacted by the territorial

4888
04:27:06,720 --> 04:27:08,960
Speaker 3: caliphate of the Islamic State and all the horrific things

4889
04:27:08,960 --> 04:27:11,040
Speaker 3: that people will be aware happened that. They're people who

4890
04:27:11,040 --> 04:27:14,560
Speaker 3: have successfully fought for and achieved their freedom only to

4891
04:27:14,560 --> 04:27:18,440
Speaker 3: be attacked by another state. And they are people who

4892
04:27:19,240 --> 04:27:23,000
Speaker 3: have suffered the same earthquake that Turkey suffered. In February

4893
04:27:23,040 --> 04:27:25,880
Speaker 3: of this year twenty twenty three, four thousand people died

4894
04:27:25,920 --> 04:27:27,560
Speaker 3: in a freed right, which is the city which is

4895
04:27:27,560 --> 04:27:33,960
Speaker 3: now occupied by Turkish and SNA troops, and Turkey pushed

4896
04:27:33,960 --> 04:27:37,040
Speaker 3: a little bit further east in Operation quote unquote Peace Spring,

4897
04:27:37,400 --> 04:27:42,680
Speaker 3: a year after Olive Branch, and currently Turkey is cutting

4898
04:27:42,720 --> 04:27:45,440
Speaker 3: water flow to pumping stations it controls that feed water

4899
04:27:45,520 --> 04:27:48,160
Speaker 3: to the area. It combines with the impact of the

4900
04:27:48,160 --> 04:27:50,400
Speaker 3: earthquake and the ongoing burden of controlling one of the

4901
04:27:50,520 --> 04:27:52,920
Speaker 3: largest prisons in Earth, which is the Al Whole Prison

4902
04:27:52,960 --> 04:27:56,800
Speaker 3: which holds the majority of the ISIS fighters and their

4903
04:27:56,840 --> 04:28:00,760
Speaker 3: families who were not either killed or returned to the

4904
04:28:00,800 --> 04:28:03,160
Speaker 3: states from which they came. And we'll have more on

4905
04:28:03,200 --> 04:28:08,000
Speaker 3: that Alhole Prison next week. There's infighting between militias in

4906
04:28:08,000 --> 04:28:11,840
Speaker 3: the Turkish areas, which obviously impact Turkish controlled areas. Obviously

4907
04:28:11,880 --> 04:28:15,560
Speaker 3: that impacts civilians is arbitrary arrests. There's the increasing Turkification

4908
04:28:15,880 --> 04:28:18,600
Speaker 3: of areas like a free right, including instruction in the

4909
04:28:18,600 --> 04:28:22,600
Speaker 3: Turkish language. Like Shurin said earlier, it's one of the

4910
04:28:22,600 --> 04:28:25,880
Speaker 3: things that's integral to maintaining national identity is education.

4911
04:28:26,080 --> 04:28:26,280
Speaker 5: Right.

4912
04:28:27,360 --> 04:28:30,880
Speaker 3: In my experience studying cattle and identity leetting education in

4913
04:28:30,960 --> 04:28:36,640
Speaker 3: Catalan was vital to fermenting and continuing Catalan identity. Kadish

4914
04:28:36,880 --> 04:28:40,560
Speaker 3: identity is not national in the same way the identity

4915
04:28:40,560 --> 04:28:42,320
Speaker 3: in the A and S I guess is not national.

4916
04:28:42,360 --> 04:28:46,000
Speaker 3: But this turkification, right, the flying of Turkish flags above

4917
04:28:46,040 --> 04:28:49,800
Speaker 3: buildings which are not military buildings, right like above hospitals,

4918
04:28:49,800 --> 04:28:52,720
Speaker 3: and that kind of thing again is a marginalization of

4919
04:28:52,720 --> 04:28:54,520
Speaker 3: the people who already lived there and who have lived

4920
04:28:54,520 --> 04:28:57,840
Speaker 3: there for a long time. SDF guerrilla units like Wrath

4921
04:28:57,880 --> 04:29:00,000
Speaker 3: of Olives and a Free and Liberation Front are involved

4922
04:29:00,080 --> 04:29:04,080
Speaker 3: and fighting with a Syrian National Army, and that fighting

4923
04:29:04,440 --> 04:29:07,000
Speaker 3: kills civilians right and throughout a Free and there have

4924
04:29:07,000 --> 04:29:11,280
Speaker 3: been things like car bombs. The a Free Liberation Front

4925
04:29:12,200 --> 04:29:15,360
Speaker 3: goes by HRI from the Kurdish initials right, and they've

4926
04:29:15,480 --> 04:29:19,120
Speaker 3: carried out some attacks on SNA militias in the last

4927
04:29:19,120 --> 04:29:21,800
Speaker 3: few days. You can often see videos of those online

4928
04:29:21,800 --> 04:29:23,360
Speaker 3: and it's the sort of thing you'd like to see.

4929
04:29:24,160 --> 04:29:26,560
Speaker 3: There are still land mines that kill civilians in the area,

4930
04:29:26,600 --> 04:29:30,200
Speaker 3: and there are still ISIS sleeper cells bombing and killing people.

4931
04:29:31,160 --> 04:29:33,960
Speaker 3: Last week, the Autonomous Administration of North and East Syria

4932
04:29:34,080 --> 04:29:37,320
Speaker 3: responded to Turkey's ongoing aggresion, bashing a statement claiming Turkey's

4933
04:29:37,360 --> 04:29:40,240
Speaker 3: operations are forcing the SDF to divert personnel away from

4934
04:29:40,280 --> 04:29:44,920
Speaker 3: countering ISIS and threatening the stability of the area. Obviously,

4935
04:29:45,560 --> 04:29:47,840
Speaker 3: this is all after an earthquake which killed four thousand

4936
04:29:47,960 --> 04:29:52,040
Speaker 3: people in a free people that have access to as

4937
04:29:52,040 --> 04:29:54,320
Speaker 3: many hospitals there. For instance, Dots still have to travel

4938
04:29:54,360 --> 04:29:57,560
Speaker 3: to Turkey to get cancer treatment, right and so IS.

4939
04:29:57,600 --> 04:30:01,760
Speaker 3: This leaves that people of North and Eastyria in a

4940
04:30:01,840 --> 04:30:07,560
Speaker 3: very precarious situation right in which there are. They're now

4941
04:30:07,640 --> 04:30:10,680
Speaker 3: left largely without the solidarity that they experienced when they

4942
04:30:10,680 --> 04:30:14,440
Speaker 3: were fighting. Isis right, and it's very difficult, Just like

4943
04:30:14,480 --> 04:30:17,880
Speaker 3: in so many cases, I feel this way about Memar two.

4944
04:30:17,920 --> 04:30:21,920
Speaker 3: To see the US and Europe expressing solidarity and solidarity

4945
04:30:21,920 --> 04:30:24,400
Speaker 3: in the form of lethal aid. Right, solidarity in the

4946
04:30:24,440 --> 04:30:28,320
Speaker 3: form of surface to webissiles and tanks and rifles and

4947
04:30:28,360 --> 04:30:31,080
Speaker 3: bullet proof beests and medical aid and all the things

4948
04:30:31,080 --> 04:30:33,520
Speaker 3: that you need to sustain a fight to Ukraine, and

4949
04:30:33,560 --> 04:30:35,600
Speaker 3: they should they should do that. I'm not saying for

4950
04:30:35,640 --> 04:30:38,680
Speaker 3: a moment that they shouldn't. Right. Ukraine has been invaded

4951
04:30:38,720 --> 04:30:40,880
Speaker 3: by a much bigger and more powerful military and it

4952
04:30:40,920 --> 04:30:43,000
Speaker 3: has every right to defend itself. And I'm glad that

4953
04:30:43,040 --> 04:30:46,360
Speaker 3: we're helping, but I wish that we would help other

4954
04:30:46,400 --> 04:30:50,400
Speaker 3: people too, especially people who we have sort of made

4955
04:30:50,400 --> 04:30:52,640
Speaker 3: promises to that we've not kept, or people who we've

4956
04:30:52,720 --> 04:30:56,120
Speaker 3: encouraged to believe, in the case of Memr right, that

4957
04:30:56,160 --> 04:30:58,560
Speaker 3: they have a right to a better life, and then

4958
04:30:58,880 --> 04:31:02,520
Speaker 3: when they decide to defend that, we don't stand behind them. So, yeah,

4959
04:31:02,520 --> 04:31:07,280
Speaker 3: that's my episode. I'm sorry for a weird juxtaposition of

4960
04:31:07,360 --> 04:31:11,240
Speaker 3: me doing the love part scripted, but somebody outside is

4961
04:31:11,320 --> 04:31:14,520
Speaker 3: drilling through my phone cable. So yeah, thank you for

4962
04:31:14,600 --> 04:31:15,000
Speaker 3: joining me.

4963
04:31:18,280 --> 04:31:21,440
Speaker 1: Hey, We'll be back Monday with more episodes every week

4964
04:31:21,520 --> 04:31:23,400
Speaker 1: from now until the heat death of the Universe.

4965
04:31:24,000 --> 04:31:26,520
Speaker 6: It Could Happen Here as a production of cool Zone Media.

4966
04:31:26,600 --> 04:31:29,240
Speaker 4: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

4967
04:31:29,320 --> 04:31:31,520
Speaker 4: cool zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the

4968
04:31:31,560 --> 04:31:35,120
Speaker 4: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

4969
04:31:35,400 --> 04:31:37,480
Speaker 4: You can find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated

4970
04:31:37,560 --> 04:31:41,640
Speaker 4: monthly at cool zonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.