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Speaker 1: Pushkin.

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Speaker 2: Hello Tim Harford here. It's a giving time of year,

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Speaker 2: the kind of giving that means wrapping paper and shiny bows, certainly,

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Speaker 2: but people also give to good causes. At least we

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Speaker 2: hope they're good causes, but how can we be sure

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Speaker 2: they're the best causes. In this special episode, Jacob Goldstein,

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Speaker 2: the host of Pushkin's What's Your Problem, is trying to

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Speaker 2: help us figure out how to get the most good

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Speaker 2: out of our donations. He starts off talking with Dr

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Speaker 2: Lorrie Santos of the Happiness Lab about the good that

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Speaker 2: giving does for the donors. I'll be back again soon

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Speaker 2: with another episode of cautionary tales, but while you wait,

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Speaker 2: I hope you enjoy this extra conversation.

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Speaker 3: I'm Jacob Goldstein. I host a Pushkin podcast called What's

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Speaker 3: Your Problem? And I am here rare talking to you

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Speaker 3: right now because today is the day before Giving Tuesday.

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Speaker 3: Giving Tuesday, as you may already know, is the Tuesday

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Speaker 3: after Thanksgiving, and it's supposed to be the day we

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Speaker 3: give money to charity.

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Speaker 1: And I'm gonna be honest with you. In my middle aged.

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Speaker 3: Somewhat calcified heart, I cringe a little bit every time

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Speaker 3: I hear the phrase giving Tuesday. I think Giving Tuesday

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Speaker 3: is not a real thing. It's not a real day.

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Speaker 3: It's just something somebody made up a few years ago.

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Speaker 3: But that cynicism is not helping anybody. In fact, as

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Speaker 3: it turns out, it isn't even helping me. I know

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Speaker 3: this to be true because over the past decade or so,

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Speaker 3: research has made two things really clear. One, giving money

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Speaker 3: away makes us feel better than we think.

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Speaker 1: It will make us feel.

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Speaker 3: In other words, we underestimate the benefit to ourselves of

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Speaker 3: giving money to others.

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Speaker 1: That's thing one thin.

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Speaker 3: Two is this, there are charities that are proven, proven

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Speaker 3: by really robust evidence, to do a tremendous amount of

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Speaker 3: good with the money.

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Speaker 1: We give them.

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Speaker 3: So today I and my colleagues at Pushkin are leaning

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Speaker 3: into Giving Tuesday. We are putting out this special Giving

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Speaker 3: Tuesday show to get into this evidence, to really understand

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Speaker 3: why giving money makes us happy, why we don't do

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Speaker 3: it more, and who we should give money to.

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Speaker 1: To start out on the show, I'm going to talk

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Speaker 1: with Lori Santos.

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Speaker 3: Laurie's a Yale psychologist who hosts a Pushkin show called

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Speaker 3: The Happiness Lab. And Lauria and I are going to

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Speaker 3: talk about the evidence that shows that giving makes us happy,

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Speaker 3: and then the obvious puzzle that follows from that evidence.

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Speaker 3: If giving makes us so happy, why don't we give more?

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Speaker 3: Later on the show, I'll talk with Ellie Hassenfeld. Ellie

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Speaker 3: is the co founder and CEO of give Well, and

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Speaker 3: he has spent nearly two decades scouring the world studying

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Speaker 3: the research to try to figure out which charities do

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Speaker 3: the most good with every dollar. And then finally I'll

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Speaker 3: talk with Maria Konikova and Nate Silver. Maria and Nate

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Speaker 3: are a pair of writers who host a Pushkin podcast

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Speaker 3: called Risky Business.

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Speaker 1: But they're also both professional poker players. They are people whose.

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Speaker 3: Livelihoods depend on making optimal bets. So I'll be talking

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Speaker 3: to them about how they bring that thinking to their

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Speaker 3: charitable given. Lorie Santos tell me why I am not

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Speaker 3: giving enough money to charity?

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Speaker 4: Well, it's probably because your mind is leading you astray, right,

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Speaker 4: I mean, you're like a smart person, right. You probably

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Speaker 4: think through what would be the pros and cons of

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Speaker 4: giving a charity. You probably do some simulations in your

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Speaker 4: head about how it would feel for you, and you

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Speaker 4: know how the recipients of that money would feel. And

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Speaker 4: there's just tons of psychological evidence showing that when we

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Speaker 4: do those simulations, we get them really really wrong.

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Speaker 1: Huh.

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Speaker 3: We don't know what makes us happy with giving money,

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Speaker 3: as with everything, as with everything.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, in some ways, the giving money part

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Speaker 4: shouldn't be surprising. You know, I have a whole podcast

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Speaker 4: about how we get happiness wrong all the time. But

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Speaker 4: this one's really insidious because it means that we're like

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Speaker 4: leaving opportunities not just to make ourselves happier kind of

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Speaker 4: on the table, but we're also leaving opportunities to just

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Speaker 4: do good in the world and do good in society

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Speaker 4: on the table too. So in some ways it's like

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Speaker 4: even sadder.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Like people talk about win when this is like lose, lose.

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Speaker 3: It's right, I feel worse and everybody feels worse.

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Speaker 4: And it's another case where we could be building the pie.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 4: You know, say I have you know, ten bucks sitting

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Speaker 4: around in my pocket. Right, it could spend it in

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Speaker 4: a way that makes me happy, or I could donate

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Speaker 4: it to a good cause. Right, I probably feel better.

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Speaker 4: The research would show spending at ten dollars on a

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Speaker 4: good charity, then I would feel kind of blowing it

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Speaker 4: on myself. But now the money is going to increase

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Speaker 4: happiness in other people, right, presumably somebody who really needed

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Speaker 4: that money. And so we're losing these opportunities to grow

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Speaker 4: the pie. And we really just need to understand this

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Speaker 4: bias better so that we can be happy.

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Speaker 3: So you learn it to the research that shows that

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Speaker 3: giving money away makes us happier. Tell me more about that, Like,

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Speaker 3: what is the academic work that's been done on this subject.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, well there's tons of studies now, you know. One

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Speaker 4: of my favorite is a really straightforward one. It comes

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Speaker 4: out of the lab of Elizabeth Dunn and her colleagues

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Speaker 4: at the University of British Columbia, and their method is

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Speaker 4: really straightforward. They walk up to some person on the

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Speaker 4: street and they say, hey, do you want to be

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Speaker 4: in a psych study? I think the person kind of

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Speaker 4: begrudging all he's like, okay, fine, But then it starts

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Speaker 4: out it's an awesome psych study because Liz and her

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Speaker 4: colleagues just hand you twenty bucks and she're like cool.

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Speaker 4: The key though, is that she tells you how to

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Speaker 4: spend that money. She either says hey, by the end

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Speaker 4: of the day, do something nice for yourself with this money.

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Speaker 4: Treat yourself, you know it's something you wouldn't have expected.

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Speaker 4: Or by the end of the day, do something nice

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Speaker 4: with this money for somebody else. Right, you could donate

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Speaker 4: it to charity, you could buy your friend a latte. Right,

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Speaker 4: it doesn't matter, but it has to be for somebody else.

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Speaker 4: And then the key is that she calls participants later

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Speaker 4: that day and even in some cases later in the week,

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Speaker 4: and what she finds is that people tend to feel

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Speaker 4: happier when they donate the money to somebody else or

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Speaker 4: do something nice for somebody else with the money, more

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Speaker 4: so than they feel when they spent the equivalent amount

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Speaker 4: of money on themselves. And the study I love because

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Speaker 4: it's just so straightforward. It's just suggests that you know

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Speaker 4: what we predict will happen, right, And Liz has actually

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Speaker 4: done these studies where she asks a different group of participants, Hey,

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Speaker 4: imagine you're in the study where I walked up to

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Speaker 4: you on the street and gave you twenty bucks. Would

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Speaker 4: you be happier spending that on yourself or somebody else?

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Speaker 4: And like robustly people say, oh, I'd be happier spending

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Speaker 4: on myself, right, because I get something out of the deal.

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Speaker 4: But what she finds is that we're just our prediction

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Speaker 4: is just totally wrong. When we spend on others, we're happier.

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Speaker 3: So I feel like there's a subtlety there in the

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Speaker 3: spending on others group, right, Like it is in some

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Speaker 3: ways more intuitive to me that, like, whatever, buying lunch

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Speaker 3: for my friend would make me happy because my friend

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Speaker 3: would be so happy, and we'd be happy together, and

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Speaker 3: the thing would be happening in this very you know, social,

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Speaker 3: real physical way, Like I get that one.

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Speaker 1: It seems less.

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Speaker 3: Obvious to me that, like giving twenty bucks to a

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Speaker 3: charity helping people in Sub Saharan Africa would make me happy,

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Speaker 3: even though clearly, intellectually, analytically, I know that the twenty

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Speaker 3: bucks going to Sub Saharan Africa is going to do

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Speaker 3: more to increase abstract human happiness than buying lunch for

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Speaker 3: my friend who could have bought lunch for herself.

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Speaker 1: So like, how does that piece of it work? How

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Speaker 1: do we think about that piece of it?

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Speaker 4: You are onto an important point, which is that there

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Speaker 4: are better and worse ways to give to charity, right,

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Speaker 4: in terms of like boosting our own happiness and sort

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Speaker 4: of feeling the impact from that. We are a lot

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Speaker 4: happier if we can see the impact of our work, right,

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Speaker 4: But even when we don't see the impact of our work,

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Speaker 4: the act of donating winds up making us feel better

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Speaker 4: than we think. Again, I share the intuition that you have, Jacob, right, Like,

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Speaker 4: I know these studies. I can kind of quote the

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Speaker 4: stats and I still don't have the intuition that it works.

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Speaker 4: But the results really just suggest that we feel better

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Speaker 4: than we assume we will.

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Speaker 1: Why do you think we get it wrong?

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Speaker 3: I mean, I know we get everything wrong, But why

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Speaker 3: do you think we get this wrong?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean we get everything wrong right our minds.

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Speaker 4: I wish I wish we could just like update like

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Speaker 4: mind two point zero would be so much better. I

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Speaker 4: think there's some there's some reasons that we get this

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Speaker 4: one wrong. One is sort of when we're doing an

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Speaker 4: active kindness, what we focus on as opposed to what

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Speaker 4: the recipient will focus on. Right, I'm sort of focused

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Speaker 4: on whether or not my gift is kind of in

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Speaker 4: some sense competent, Like am I doing the right thing?

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Speaker 4: Am I picking the right charity? Maybe an in more

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Speaker 4: local acts of kindness. Am I doing it the right way? Right?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? I don't want to be awkward.

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Speaker 3: I don't want to be rude or make this person

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Speaker 3: feel some sense of obligation or reciprocity that might not

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Speaker 3: work for them.

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Speaker 1: You overthinking it. You're saying we're overthinking it.

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Speaker 4: But in terms of the overthinking, that's not what's happening.

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Speaker 4: On the other side. You think of the recipient of

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Speaker 4: a compliment, right, If you know, if someone walks up

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Speaker 4: to you in the streets like, hey, you know love

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Speaker 4: those glasses. They really see you, Jacob, like nicely done.

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Speaker 1: You're not thinking you you're not mean it, and I

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Speaker 1: like it.

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Speaker 4: But you're not thinking of like did they right? Did

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Speaker 4: they use the right adjective? Was it cool glasses or stylish?

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Speaker 4: You're just like, oh my gosh, I'm surprised, and I

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Speaker 4: have this incredible warm feeling. And so this is part

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Speaker 4: of the disconnect, is that when we're making the decision

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Speaker 4: to do something nice, we're overthinking. We're caught up in

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Speaker 4: if we're doing it right and so on. But the recipients,

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Speaker 4: they don't feel any of that. They're just like, oh

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Speaker 4: my gosh, I feel amazing, And so we kind of

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Speaker 4: mispredict what they're paying attention to when they react, and

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Speaker 4: that means their reactions are often a lot more positive

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Speaker 4: than we expect. And then we're like, oh, I guess,

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Speaker 4: I guess it was nice to do that kind thing

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Speaker 4: for somebody.

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Speaker 3: It's the broader lesson of like everybody's just thinking about

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Speaker 3: themselves all the time. We're thinking about ourselves as givers,

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Speaker 3: and am I the optimal giver?

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Speaker 1: Am I giving in the optimal way? But the recipients

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Speaker 1: aren't thinking about you. They're just thinking about.

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Speaker 4: Them Yeah, And we get so caught up in the

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Speaker 4: awkwardness of it. Right, you know how many compliments have

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Speaker 4: you not given just because you're like, oh, I don't

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Speaker 4: want to do it wrong or seem weird and some

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Speaker 4: of Nick Eppley's a professor at the University of Chicago's data.

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Speaker 4: He finds that about a third of the compliments we

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Speaker 4: think in our heads, we don't actually tell the people

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Speaker 4: around us, right, which, when you think compliments usually are

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Speaker 4: received really well and make people's day, it's like a

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Speaker 4: lot of positivity that's just like stuck inside people's heads

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Speaker 4: that we're not giving out.

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Speaker 3: Friction seems like another interesting piece, right, there's like you're

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Speaker 3: in your own head too much, and the other core

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Speaker 3: piece is like, ah, I don't know. I'm just some

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Speaker 3: guy in the world. How do I figure out who

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Speaker 3: to give to? And like I feel like that one

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Speaker 3: is underrated in the world in general, right, Like we

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Speaker 3: just we're like water, we just flow to the easiest rounde.

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Speaker 3: I mean, how do you see that playing out in

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Speaker 3: charity more generally, in giving more generally?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean I think that friction is a huge thing, right.

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Speaker 4: I Mean a good friend of mine just had a

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Speaker 4: baby with his wife, and my instagraction was like, oh

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Speaker 4: my gosh, I should do something nice for them. Maybe

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Speaker 4: I'll get them some food or some onesies or something.

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Speaker 4: But I was like, do I just show up at

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Speaker 4: their house? Like do they have any dietary restrictions that

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Speaker 4: I'm forgetting about?

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Speaker 1: Is this weird?

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Speaker 4: Like all again, all this overthinking in my head. But

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Speaker 4: another good friend of ours was like, I'm setting up

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Speaker 4: a meal train. Here's the day. You click on this link.

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Speaker 4: It's super easy, right, what you're gonna, you know, give

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Speaker 4: him if it's a lasa or whatever, Here's how you

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Speaker 4: drop it. Off, she just made it really easy for

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Speaker 4: me to do the nice thing that I was thinking

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Speaker 4: about doing. Anyway, I needed somebody to make that friction

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Speaker 4: go away for me to help. And so I think

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Speaker 4: there's so many cases of this in terms of what

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Speaker 4: we could do to do nice things for others, whether

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Speaker 4: that's with a charitable donation or even just like you know,

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Speaker 4: asking a friend if they need some support, checking in

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Speaker 4: on the people we care about, sharing compliments, and so on.

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Speaker 4: The friction kind of gets in the way, and I

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Speaker 4: think this is the idea, is that we can overcome

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Speaker 4: the friction by kind of reducing how much work it

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Speaker 4: is for us to do the nice thing. Right, Sometimes

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Speaker 4: the nice thing is just texting a friend, or you're

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Speaker 4: already there, you know, like you know, in the subway,

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Speaker 4: and you compliment somebody who's walking by. Right, these are

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Speaker 4: the kinds of things that we can do quickly, and

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Speaker 4: if we do them enough, then there's a second way

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Speaker 4: that we can reduce friction, which is that it just

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Speaker 4: kind of becomes a habit. Right, if we just get

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Speaker 4: in the habit of doing this over and over again,

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Speaker 4: doing more and more nice things, then all of a sudden,

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Speaker 4: it just becomes easier because so much that we know

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Speaker 4: about human psychology, even though we're kind of you know,

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Speaker 4: in the crappy beta version, shows that when we do

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Speaker 4: something over and over again, it just becomes easier to

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Speaker 4: do that same thing. And so one of the Giving

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Speaker 4: Tuesday practices that I talk about in my show The

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Speaker 4: Happiness Lab is just hey, practice doing nice things and

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Speaker 4: it will make it easier. You'll kind of experience less

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Speaker 4: friction over time, just because like it's just the thing

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Speaker 4: you do when you see somebody you know at work

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Speaker 4: who you know is wearing something nice or they do

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Speaker 4: something great in a team meeting. You'll just get good

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Speaker 4: at expressing compliments, expressing gratitude. It'll just become second nature

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Speaker 4: to you.

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Speaker 3: So you have this project through your show, the Happiness Lab,

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Speaker 3: of giving money away, like built on this premise that

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Speaker 3: we're talking about that not only would recipients be better

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Speaker 3: if people gave more, but the givers themselves would be

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Speaker 3: better if people gave more. You have this project that

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Speaker 3: you do every year for Giving Tuesday, which is coming up.

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Speaker 1: Tell me about that project.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, So the site that we've worked with is this

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Speaker 4: group called giving Multiplier dot org and their goal is

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Speaker 4: to fight a different kind of thing that can go

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Speaker 4: wrong when we think about donating to charities, which is

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Speaker 4: that many of us really do want to be kind

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Speaker 4: of competent about it. We want our money to go

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Speaker 4: to really good causes in the world, but we also

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Speaker 4: kind of fall prey to the causes that feel really

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Speaker 4: close to my heart, right you know, like I might

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Speaker 4: want to give to my local food bank, which is great,

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Speaker 4: you know, it's good to do that, but that ten

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Speaker 4: bucks I give to my local food bank, it might

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Speaker 4: not have as much impact as you know, giving to

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Speaker 4: somebody maybe an extreme poverty right in like Sub Saharan Africa.

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Speaker 4: You know, I haven't really analyzed is my local food

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Speaker 4: bank doing the best with the money and so on

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Speaker 4: and so giving multiplier dot Org has this has this

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Speaker 4: really nice combination of they say, Okay, you really feel

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Speaker 4: compelled to give to your food bank, but what if

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Speaker 4: you gave just part of that ten bucks to one

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Speaker 4: of these so called super effective charities. Right They've done

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Speaker 4: the research. They're like the dollar that you give from

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Speaker 4: that ten bucks to the super effective charity is going

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Speaker 4: to go even further. And so they kind of allow

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Speaker 4: you to make this distinction between your your heart and

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Speaker 4: what you kind of really feel locally, the kind of

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Speaker 4: thing that make you feel good because you can see

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Speaker 4: the impact in your community versus what's doing the best

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Speaker 4: work out there and giving. Multiplier dot Org this year

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Speaker 4: has picked a really great super effective charity which is

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Speaker 4: called Give Directly. This is this group that just gives

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Speaker 4: these unconditional cash transfers like no strings attached, like cast

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Speaker 4: bonus to people living in extreme poverty.

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Speaker 3: And there's a there's a happiness lab. You are l right,

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Speaker 3: shout it out, Shout it from the rooftops.

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Speaker 1: What is it?

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Speaker 4: It's giving Multiplier dot org slash Happiness Lab super easy.

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Speaker 1: Go right now.

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Speaker 3: Phones are open, operators are standing by, you know.

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Speaker 4: And one of the things we've seen is that a

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Speaker 4: lot of our listeners will donate five bucks, three bucks

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Speaker 4: in some cases. But those kinds of donations really add up,

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Speaker 4: and especially if part of your donation is going to

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Speaker 4: one of these super effective charities, like that dollar is

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Speaker 4: going a really long way.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'll say, And I know, like analyzing super effective

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Speaker 3: charities ends up being about like randomized controlled trials, which

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Speaker 3: is great, like real evidence. But I will say that

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Speaker 3: I actually for a story I did ten years ago

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Speaker 3: or so. I went to Kenya to a village where

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Speaker 3: Give Directly was giving money and I saw how profound

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Speaker 3: the impact is. I mean, it's people get one thousand

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Speaker 3: dollars at least at that time, no strings attached, and

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Speaker 3: like I talk to a guy who bought a motorcycle

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Speaker 3: so that he could start a motorcycle taxi business. Right,

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Speaker 3: So it's not just like they buy food and then

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Speaker 3: the money runs out. It's people have no capital, They

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Speaker 3: have no money, and so getting one thousand dollars allows

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Speaker 3: them to make these investments that can change their lives forever.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, we saw that last year where we really focused

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Speaker 4: on GiveDirectly in particular and one community specifically. So we

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Speaker 4: worked with this community, Kebobo in Rwanda, which is a

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Speaker 4: tiny village just on the outside of Kigali, the capital.

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Speaker 4: But they just like all, most of the people in

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Speaker 4: the community live off less than a dollar a day,

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Speaker 4: and just like you're saying, they just lack so many

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Speaker 4: of the basic conveniences that we take for granted. Right,

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Speaker 4: they have to hike two hours to get access to

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Speaker 4: water and then the water comes back and it's like,

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Speaker 4: are you going to drink some water? Are you going

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Speaker 4: to give your kid a shower? Right, there's no access

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Speaker 4: to schools and these kinds of things. And last year,

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Speaker 4: Happiness Lab listeners were able to generate over one hundred

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Speaker 4: thousand dollars for this community in particular, and so, just

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Speaker 4: like you're saying, give directly, was able to give each

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Speaker 4: person in the community one thousand dollars unconditional cash transfer,

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Speaker 4: and the money went to things like motorbikes like you mentioned,

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Speaker 4: fixing roofs, buying mattresses. Right, most of the people in

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Speaker 4: Kebobo were sleeping on the floor. They just didn't have

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Speaker 4: access to a mattress. But some people did these really

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Speaker 4: creative things that One of the things I didn't expect

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Speaker 4: is that one of the couples that got the cash

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Speaker 4: transfer bought a pub, which you might think, like, ah,

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Speaker 4: they got a pub, a puppet.

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Speaker 1: Like a bar like a I love that.

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Speaker 4: But the bar like wound up employing people in the community.

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Speaker 4: It became this commun hub where people could get together

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Speaker 4: with each other at night, and it's generated more income

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Speaker 4: for them. So now they're turning kind of the side

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Speaker 4: of their pub that they put together into a little

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Speaker 4: mini grocery store, which is one of the first spots

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Speaker 4: that people can buy food in town so that they

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Speaker 4: don't have to leave town. And so it's like if

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Speaker 4: you leave it up to people's ingenuity, they kind of

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Speaker 4: come up with these interesting things.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean there's a really simple idea.

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Speaker 3: Like the reason I wanted to do that story all

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Speaker 3: those years ago is like people know what they need, right,

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Speaker 3: Like they know if they need food or a motorcycle

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Speaker 3: or a roof, they just don't have the money, yes, right,

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Speaker 3: So like if you give them the money, they can

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Speaker 3: buy what they need.

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Speaker 1: That's the great thing about money.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, And this is something we forget with gifts in general.

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Speaker 4: I think this comes up in charity, but there's also

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Speaker 4: a work you know, giving Tuesdays sort of the prelude

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Speaker 4: to other holidays and gift giving moments coming up. And

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Speaker 4: it's just something we get wrong all the time, Like

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Speaker 4: we want to be able to come up with the

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Speaker 4: creative gift for somebody. But one of the best ways

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Speaker 4: to figure out the best gift is to just ask

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Speaker 4: people what do you want? And if you buy someone

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Speaker 4: that thing, they're going to be happy because that was

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Speaker 4: what they wanted.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it goes back to the like we're thinking about ourselves, right,

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Speaker 3: even when we're giving gifts this notionally you know, other

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Speaker 3: focused thing, we're actually like, oh am I a good gift?

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Speaker 1: Giver? Am I a good It's just ego.

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Speaker 3: It's just we're just screwing ourselves with our ego as always. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: it was great to talk with you, Laurie.

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Speaker 1: It was truly a delightful conversation. Thank you.

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Speaker 4: This is super Thanks for sharing the love on Giving Tuesday.

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Speaker 3: Larie Santos is a professor of psychology at Yale and

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Speaker 3: the host of the Happiness Lab. They have a whole

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Speaker 3: episode on the psychology of generosity coming out this week.

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Speaker 3: We'll be back in a minute with my conversation with

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Speaker 3: Ellie Hassenfeld, who spent nearly two decades scouring the planet

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Speaker 3: to find the most effective ways to spend money.

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Speaker 1: On other people.

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Speaker 3: Okay, so, Laurie Santos explained convincingly that giving away money

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Speaker 3: makes us feel good. So now the question is who

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Speaker 3: do we give the money to? That is basically the

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Speaker 3: question that Ellie Hasn'tfeld asked himself almost twenty years ago.

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Speaker 3: It's a question that led him to co found give

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Speaker 3: Well where he's now the CEO, and it's a question that,

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Speaker 3: in some really interesting ways, as you will hear, has

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Speaker 3: started to change the way charities themselves think about what

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Speaker 3: they do. To start, I asked Ellie how he came

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Speaker 3: to found GiveWell in the first place.

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Speaker 1: Back in two thousand and six, I was a couple

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Speaker 1: of years out of college working at a hedge fund,

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Speaker 1: and a friend, Holding Karnowski, and I wanted to give

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Speaker 1: to charity, and at the time, we were trying to

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Speaker 1: give a few thousand bucks away and we wanted to

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Speaker 1: find charitable organizations that were getting a lot of bang

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Speaker 1: for their buck. And when we went looking online for information,

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Speaker 1: we just couldn't find great information about what charities do

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Speaker 1: and how well it works. We heard a lot about

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Speaker 1: the overhead ratio, how much did they spend on administration

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Speaker 1: versus programs, but nothing that said this is what they're

436
00:20:30,130 --> 00:20:31,930
Speaker 1: doing and this is how many people they'll help with

437
00:20:31,970 --> 00:20:36,170
Speaker 1: their programs. We spent months trying to answer this question.

438
00:20:36,890 --> 00:20:38,690
Speaker 1: The two of us got a little bit obsessed with it,

439
00:20:39,090 --> 00:20:43,090
Speaker 1: and eventually, after about a year of working on this project,

440
00:20:43,170 --> 00:20:45,250
Speaker 1: left our jobs to start give Well as a full

441
00:20:45,250 --> 00:20:47,690
Speaker 1: time project, and the idea was to create the resource

442
00:20:47,770 --> 00:20:50,130
Speaker 1: that we had been looking for as donors well.

443
00:20:50,130 --> 00:20:55,370
Speaker 3: And there is this interesting sort of broader idea in

444
00:20:55,410 --> 00:20:59,730
Speaker 3: the charity world, right in the philanthropic world, which is

445
00:21:00,650 --> 00:21:03,210
Speaker 3: what are they measuring? You Know, you can have a

446
00:21:03,330 --> 00:21:06,050
Speaker 3: charity that builds schools, and they might tell you how

447
00:21:06,090 --> 00:21:09,410
Speaker 3: many schools they build, but presumably you're not actually giving

448
00:21:09,450 --> 00:21:11,810
Speaker 3: money to build the school, right, You're giving money so

449
00:21:11,850 --> 00:21:15,490
Speaker 3: that children get a better education. And so I'm curious,

450
00:21:15,650 --> 00:21:19,050
Speaker 3: I mean, as you started to look deeper at the time,

451
00:21:19,130 --> 00:21:21,930
Speaker 3: as you founded give well, like what was just the

452
00:21:21,970 --> 00:21:26,810
Speaker 3: basic landscape of measurement within the charity Worldlike.

453
00:21:27,330 --> 00:21:31,210
Speaker 1: It's just really hard to get information about the outcomes

454
00:21:31,250 --> 00:21:33,730
Speaker 1: that we cared about that I think donors ultimately do

455
00:21:33,810 --> 00:21:37,690
Speaker 1: care about. And those outcomes would be things like do

456
00:21:37,890 --> 00:21:42,410
Speaker 1: you save children's lives if you are providing funds for

457
00:21:42,450 --> 00:21:45,330
Speaker 1: health programs, if you're trying to reduce poverty? Do you

458
00:21:45,890 --> 00:21:48,730
Speaker 1: increase people's incomes so that they can buy more of

459
00:21:48,770 --> 00:21:50,770
Speaker 1: the kinds of things that they want? And I would

460
00:21:50,810 --> 00:21:55,290
Speaker 1: say that by and large this information was not available.

461
00:21:55,690 --> 00:21:59,090
Speaker 1: When we were calling up organizations and asking them for information,

462
00:21:59,650 --> 00:22:02,970
Speaker 1: they were often shocked that anyone would be even asking

463
00:22:03,050 --> 00:22:06,850
Speaker 1: a question like this, because it was just in two

464
00:22:06,890 --> 00:22:09,690
Speaker 1: thousand and six, two thousand and seven, it was completely

465
00:22:09,810 --> 00:22:13,530
Speaker 1: unusual that someone would be wondering about, like, what is

466
00:22:13,530 --> 00:22:15,730
Speaker 1: the program actually accomplishing? What is the impact that it's

467
00:22:15,730 --> 00:22:17,290
Speaker 1: having on the world? Huh?

468
00:22:17,370 --> 00:22:20,370
Speaker 3: I mean, is it almost a rude question? Is it

469
00:22:20,410 --> 00:22:23,770
Speaker 3: almost like, Look, we're spending our lives helping these people,

470
00:22:23,850 --> 00:22:27,850
Speaker 3: We're giving them cows, we're building clinics, Like who are you?

471
00:22:27,930 --> 00:22:30,610
Speaker 1: What are you asking about? Why where do you come

472
00:22:30,650 --> 00:22:34,730
Speaker 1: off asking these questions? I think it's definitely an odd

473
00:22:34,770 --> 00:22:37,650
Speaker 1: question to ask something that I say a lot internally.

474
00:22:37,690 --> 00:22:39,370
Speaker 1: I can well, now is that you know, we're the

475
00:22:39,370 --> 00:22:44,090
Speaker 1: people who react skeptically to organizations saying we're just trying

476
00:22:44,090 --> 00:22:46,650
Speaker 1: to help people around the world, and we say, well,

477
00:22:46,650 --> 00:22:48,930
Speaker 1: how do you know? And can you prove it? And

478
00:22:49,170 --> 00:22:52,650
Speaker 1: you know that's not a socially normal thing to do,

479
00:22:52,690 --> 00:22:55,850
Speaker 1: but I think it's necessary because gosh, it's so hard

480
00:22:55,930 --> 00:22:57,810
Speaker 1: to have an impact on people around the world, and

481
00:22:57,970 --> 00:23:00,410
Speaker 1: asking those questions helps get better information so we can

482
00:23:00,490 --> 00:23:03,210
Speaker 1: ensure that funding goes to the best place. So you

483
00:23:03,330 --> 00:23:04,290
Speaker 1: do have this.

484
00:23:05,690 --> 00:23:08,330
Speaker 3: Short list of pop charities that seems kind of like

485
00:23:08,450 --> 00:23:10,530
Speaker 3: the center of what you do in some way. Right,

486
00:23:10,610 --> 00:23:13,010
Speaker 3: you've looked at all of these charities in the world,

487
00:23:13,010 --> 00:23:17,210
Speaker 3: then you've landed on this very small number. Briefly, what

488
00:23:17,370 --> 00:23:20,610
Speaker 3: are they? Yeah, so you know, these top charities account

489
00:23:20,610 --> 00:23:23,290
Speaker 3: for about two thirds of the funds we direct. There

490
00:23:23,290 --> 00:23:23,970
Speaker 3: are four of them.

491
00:23:24,130 --> 00:23:27,810
Speaker 1: One is the Against Malaria Foundation, which delivers malaria nets

492
00:23:27,930 --> 00:23:32,130
Speaker 1: in Africa. The second one is called Malaria Consortium and

493
00:23:32,130 --> 00:23:35,850
Speaker 1: we support their Seasonal Malaria Chemo Prevention program. That's a

494
00:23:35,850 --> 00:23:40,570
Speaker 1: preventative malaria program giving medicine to young children. The third one,

495
00:23:40,610 --> 00:23:42,570
Speaker 1: and these are in no particular order, but the third

496
00:23:42,570 --> 00:23:46,570
Speaker 1: one is Helen Keller Internationals Vitamin A Supplementation Program. This

497
00:23:46,650 --> 00:23:50,930
Speaker 1: is a program that gives a small amount of vitamin

498
00:23:50,970 --> 00:23:53,570
Speaker 1: A to children under the age of five and it

499
00:23:53,650 --> 00:23:57,610
Speaker 1: is shown in numerous studies to reduce child mortality. And

500
00:23:57,650 --> 00:24:00,930
Speaker 1: then finally, New Incentives, which is the organization that provides

501
00:24:01,250 --> 00:24:05,050
Speaker 1: conditional cast trans or small cash transfers to encourage immunization.

502
00:24:05,890 --> 00:24:08,850
Speaker 1: You know, the top charities reflect you know, roughly two

503
00:24:08,890 --> 00:24:11,210
Speaker 1: thirds of the funds that we direct, and we see

504
00:24:11,210 --> 00:24:14,250
Speaker 1: them as the you know, really the tried and true,

505
00:24:14,290 --> 00:24:15,690
Speaker 1: Like if you're a donor, and you want to have

506
00:24:15,690 --> 00:24:18,090
Speaker 1: a lot of impact, and you want to have confidence

507
00:24:18,650 --> 00:24:21,890
Speaker 1: in that impact. These are organizations that we have followed

508
00:24:21,890 --> 00:24:23,730
Speaker 1: for many years and we have a lot of confidence

509
00:24:23,770 --> 00:24:26,530
Speaker 1: in because they are there's a lot of evidence that

510
00:24:26,610 --> 00:24:27,970
Speaker 1: supports their impact.

511
00:24:28,610 --> 00:24:31,210
Speaker 3: So how do you get from sort of generally being

512
00:24:31,250 --> 00:24:36,930
Speaker 3: interested in charity and in you know, research driven outcomes

513
00:24:38,090 --> 00:24:42,450
Speaker 3: to specifically focusing on saving the lives of children in

514
00:24:42,450 --> 00:24:43,250
Speaker 3: the developing world.

515
00:24:43,370 --> 00:24:48,370
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, so, at its core, GiveWell is about

516
00:24:48,850 --> 00:24:51,930
Speaker 1: finding outstanding programs that we can support with the aim

517
00:24:52,450 --> 00:24:55,730
Speaker 1: of getting having the most impact with the funds that

518
00:24:55,770 --> 00:24:59,570
Speaker 1: we direct. And when we started, we didn't know where

519
00:24:59,610 --> 00:25:02,690
Speaker 1: we were going to find those programs, so we were

520
00:25:02,730 --> 00:25:07,730
Speaker 1: looking at health programs focused on low income countries, but

521
00:25:07,850 --> 00:25:11,130
Speaker 1: also social program focused on New York City where we

522
00:25:11,210 --> 00:25:14,170
Speaker 1: lived at the time, so job training programs, education programs,

523
00:25:14,170 --> 00:25:17,890
Speaker 1: et cetera. And after our first year of work where

524
00:25:17,930 --> 00:25:21,290
Speaker 1: we were focused on both US social programs and also

525
00:25:21,290 --> 00:25:25,250
Speaker 1: global programs, we looked at the data and just saw

526
00:25:25,530 --> 00:25:29,570
Speaker 1: how big the difference was in what a dollar could

527
00:25:29,570 --> 00:25:33,250
Speaker 1: accomplish overseas versus at home. And just to make it concrete,

528
00:25:33,250 --> 00:25:37,130
Speaker 1: you know, we estimate roughly, but I think it's the

529
00:25:37,170 --> 00:25:41,690
Speaker 1: right ballpark that five thousand or so dollars will avert

530
00:25:41,730 --> 00:25:44,210
Speaker 1: the death of a young child in a low income country.

531
00:25:44,490 --> 00:25:48,850
Speaker 1: That's about what it costs to put a child through

532
00:25:49,210 --> 00:25:53,010
Speaker 1: school for a couple of years in a New York

533
00:25:53,050 --> 00:25:57,810
Speaker 1: City charter school. And so that differential really showed us

534
00:25:58,290 --> 00:26:01,250
Speaker 1: that the opportunities to use money to have a big

535
00:26:01,290 --> 00:26:04,810
Speaker 1: impactor over on the world where we're stronger overseas, and

536
00:26:04,850 --> 00:26:07,730
Speaker 1: it drove us. It drove us to focus our efforts there.

537
00:26:08,210 --> 00:26:12,930
Speaker 1: We're finding the the groups that are, I think, like

538
00:26:12,970 --> 00:26:16,690
Speaker 1: importantly like not sure that their own programs are working,

539
00:26:17,050 --> 00:26:19,530
Speaker 1: and so want to ensure that they're gathering the data

540
00:26:19,570 --> 00:26:23,170
Speaker 1: so that they know where the programs are effective, where

541
00:26:23,250 --> 00:26:27,170
Speaker 1: they're struggling, so that they can make changes to run

542
00:26:27,210 --> 00:26:28,410
Speaker 1: those programs more effectively.

543
00:26:28,810 --> 00:26:31,370
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, so that's an interesting idea, right, Like

544
00:26:31,410 --> 00:26:35,970
Speaker 3: that idea of the groups themselves being unsure. It requires

545
00:26:36,050 --> 00:26:42,050
Speaker 3: a sense of what is what is the real endpoint?

546
00:26:42,290 --> 00:26:42,490
Speaker 1: Right?

547
00:26:42,610 --> 00:26:46,290
Speaker 3: I think quite often and reasonably, like things are clearly

548
00:26:46,690 --> 00:26:51,090
Speaker 3: helpful if you whatever, give someone a cow and you

549
00:26:51,090 --> 00:26:53,170
Speaker 3: know training on how to take care of that cow,

550
00:26:53,690 --> 00:26:56,650
Speaker 3: like pretty clearly that person is going to be better

551
00:26:56,690 --> 00:26:58,890
Speaker 3: off than if you hadn't done it, and so it

552
00:26:58,970 --> 00:27:02,130
Speaker 3: might not be obvious to say, oh, we need to measure, well,

553
00:27:02,130 --> 00:27:03,770
Speaker 3: how much does it cost to give them the cow?

554
00:27:03,810 --> 00:27:05,810
Speaker 1: How much better off are they? Are?

555
00:27:05,850 --> 00:27:08,250
Speaker 3: There things we could change that would be even more helpful,

556
00:27:08,290 --> 00:27:11,410
Speaker 3: Like most people clearly don't do that, right, Most people

557
00:27:11,450 --> 00:27:14,850
Speaker 3: in their jobs in many domains are not constantly measuring

558
00:27:14,930 --> 00:27:16,250
Speaker 3: and trying to optimize.

559
00:27:16,570 --> 00:27:18,530
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I just think the stakes are so

560
00:27:18,650 --> 00:27:22,090
Speaker 1: high that it's just absolutely critical that there is a

561
00:27:22,130 --> 00:27:26,250
Speaker 1: recognition that failure can happen and we have to do

562
00:27:26,290 --> 00:27:30,010
Speaker 1: the best we can. Billions of dollars go to health

563
00:27:30,090 --> 00:27:33,130
Speaker 1: aid every year and the stakes are quite literally life

564
00:27:33,170 --> 00:27:36,730
Speaker 1: and death. And so therefore the difference between some of

565
00:27:37,090 --> 00:27:41,890
Speaker 1: the best programs that can very roughly say, avert the

566
00:27:41,930 --> 00:27:44,170
Speaker 1: death of a young child for approximately five to ten

567
00:27:44,210 --> 00:27:47,610
Speaker 1: thousand dollars, and then other programs which could have very

568
00:27:47,650 --> 00:27:50,610
Speaker 1: limited impact, I think in the worst case, even cause harm.

569
00:27:51,290 --> 00:27:56,530
Speaker 1: The measurement in that feedback loop to say this, we

570
00:27:56,570 --> 00:27:59,730
Speaker 1: want to see whether it's working, we want to see

571
00:27:59,770 --> 00:28:01,650
Speaker 1: the extent to which it's working, and we want to

572
00:28:01,770 --> 00:28:04,210
Speaker 1: learn from what we've done so that we can do better.

573
00:28:04,210 --> 00:28:06,410
Speaker 1: That's true for the organizations we work with, that's true

574
00:28:06,410 --> 00:28:08,410
Speaker 1: for us as an organization. You know, we're trying to

575
00:28:08,410 --> 00:28:12,050
Speaker 1: follow the same project of learning from our own track

576
00:28:12,090 --> 00:28:14,690
Speaker 1: record in history to make better decisions in the future

577
00:28:14,690 --> 00:28:17,850
Speaker 1: and hopefully help people even more. The groups that we

578
00:28:18,370 --> 00:28:21,050
Speaker 1: work with most, and I think the kinds of people

579
00:28:21,050 --> 00:28:23,730
Speaker 1: who are most drawn to what we're doing, whether it's

580
00:28:23,730 --> 00:28:28,490
Speaker 1: donors or practitioners, are people who's I think their interest,

581
00:28:29,210 --> 00:28:31,330
Speaker 1: the idea that they have that we have is to

582
00:28:31,370 --> 00:28:35,530
Speaker 1: try to find the way to use charitable dollars to

583
00:28:35,810 --> 00:28:38,530
Speaker 1: accomplish as much good as possible. And if that idea

584
00:28:38,810 --> 00:28:43,010
Speaker 1: is preventing HIV and young children, then great. And if

585
00:28:43,210 --> 00:28:46,610
Speaker 1: we can do better, if we can distribute oral rehydration

586
00:28:46,770 --> 00:28:50,130
Speaker 1: solution to prevent deaths from diarrhea, or if we can

587
00:28:50,770 --> 00:28:55,690
Speaker 1: encourage additional testing and treatment to prevent cases of tuberculosis

588
00:28:55,690 --> 00:28:58,970
Speaker 1: and children, what I ultimately care about. The thing that's

589
00:28:59,010 --> 00:29:01,890
Speaker 1: important to me is just helping children. And I'm not

590
00:29:02,010 --> 00:29:04,770
Speaker 1: drawn to the specific cause or disease as much as

591
00:29:04,770 --> 00:29:06,890
Speaker 1: the outcome, which is trying to enable more people to

592
00:29:06,930 --> 00:29:08,770
Speaker 1: live long, healthy lives.

593
00:29:09,290 --> 00:29:15,570
Speaker 3: I feel like, you know, traditionally philanthropy was largely about

594
00:29:16,490 --> 00:29:20,290
Speaker 3: making donors feel good, and maybe it still is to

595
00:29:20,330 --> 00:29:23,170
Speaker 3: some degree, the nature of human nature being what it is.

596
00:29:23,730 --> 00:29:27,250
Speaker 3: But it seems like the growth of give well and

597
00:29:27,290 --> 00:29:33,570
Speaker 3: of sort of research driven philanthropy more generally has coincided

598
00:29:33,650 --> 00:29:39,450
Speaker 3: with the long boom of Silicon Valley, right. And it

599
00:29:39,530 --> 00:29:41,770
Speaker 3: strikes me that the kind of people who get rich

600
00:29:41,850 --> 00:29:48,250
Speaker 3: in tech are more numerically driven, are more metrics oriented

601
00:29:48,370 --> 00:29:51,970
Speaker 3: perhaps than earlier generations of rich people, and that that

602
00:29:52,090 --> 00:29:54,730
Speaker 3: might be sort of part of what is going on,

603
00:29:54,810 --> 00:29:56,450
Speaker 3: part of the wind at your back, part of the

604
00:29:56,570 --> 00:29:59,250
Speaker 3: rise of research driven philanthropy.

605
00:29:59,810 --> 00:30:02,610
Speaker 1: You buy that. I think there's a kind of person

606
00:30:02,970 --> 00:30:06,770
Speaker 1: in tech and also in parts of finance. Those are

607
00:30:06,850 --> 00:30:09,770
Speaker 1: the two sectors from which we draw most of our

608
00:30:09,810 --> 00:30:14,290
Speaker 1: donors who have I think, the perspective that they take

609
00:30:14,330 --> 00:30:18,170
Speaker 1: on the world as one we know that there's a

610
00:30:18,210 --> 00:30:19,930
Speaker 1: lot we can be wrong about. We know there can

611
00:30:19,970 --> 00:30:23,890
Speaker 1: be big differences in the investments we make or the

612
00:30:23,930 --> 00:30:27,650
Speaker 1: decisions we make as a company leader. We also know

613
00:30:27,690 --> 00:30:29,290
Speaker 1: that we can be wrong and we want to learn

614
00:30:29,330 --> 00:30:31,090
Speaker 1: about how to do it better. And I do think

615
00:30:31,130 --> 00:30:35,610
Speaker 1: we see that coming out of those industries, and it's

616
00:30:35,650 --> 00:30:38,690
Speaker 1: a big part of what has helped us grow to

617
00:30:38,730 --> 00:30:39,810
Speaker 1: the size that we are today.

618
00:30:40,930 --> 00:30:43,250
Speaker 3: So you were mentioning that when you first started out

619
00:30:43,290 --> 00:30:46,810
Speaker 3: and you were calling up charities and saying, what evidence

620
00:30:46,850 --> 00:30:50,290
Speaker 3: do you have that you're actually helping people basically, and

621
00:30:50,330 --> 00:30:51,050
Speaker 3: they would say.

622
00:30:51,930 --> 00:30:53,130
Speaker 1: How dare you? Who are you?

623
00:30:53,210 --> 00:30:55,450
Speaker 3: Why are you asking me this? I'm spending my life

624
00:30:55,450 --> 00:30:59,450
Speaker 3: helping people. What do they say now when.

625
00:30:59,290 --> 00:31:02,450
Speaker 1: You call them up? Has that changed? Very practically? It's

626
00:31:02,530 --> 00:31:05,410
Speaker 1: changed for us because when I was calling people up

627
00:31:05,490 --> 00:31:07,450
Speaker 1: almost twenty years ago, I was offering them a thousand

628
00:31:07,450 --> 00:31:10,130
Speaker 1: bucks and you know, now how we have a lot

629
00:31:10,170 --> 00:31:12,370
Speaker 1: of funding to give, and so that does make them

630
00:31:12,370 --> 00:31:15,490
Speaker 1: more responsive. Oh, that's interesting. So there's a sort of pull.

631
00:31:15,570 --> 00:31:18,250
Speaker 3: So basically, because you're directing hundreds of millions of dollars

632
00:31:18,290 --> 00:31:22,730
Speaker 3: a year, organizations have an incentive to be more research based.

633
00:31:22,930 --> 00:31:26,090
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean very fundamentally. You know, there's a there's

634
00:31:26,090 --> 00:31:28,930
Speaker 1: a problem, so to speak, in the charitable market where

635
00:31:28,970 --> 00:31:32,890
Speaker 1: the person deciding to open their wallet is not the

636
00:31:32,930 --> 00:31:37,330
Speaker 1: person who's ultimately receiving the service. So there's a disconnect

637
00:31:37,490 --> 00:31:41,410
Speaker 1: between the recipient and the giver. Where in the consumer

638
00:31:41,450 --> 00:31:44,570
Speaker 1: market that we're used to, you know, I purchase my

639
00:31:44,650 --> 00:31:46,490
Speaker 1: laptop and then I also use it and see how

640
00:31:46,530 --> 00:31:48,010
Speaker 1: good it is. Yeah, and so I think, and.

641
00:31:47,930 --> 00:31:51,130
Speaker 3: If it sucks you, you that company goes out of dens.

642
00:31:51,170 --> 00:31:52,730
Speaker 1: But that's not how it works security. If you're great

643
00:31:52,770 --> 00:31:56,930
Speaker 1: at fundraising from donors but terrible at delivering a program

644
00:31:57,010 --> 00:31:59,170
Speaker 1: no one might ever know. And so very I think

645
00:31:59,450 --> 00:32:05,090
Speaker 1: just concretely give well has helped support the literal in

646
00:32:05,130 --> 00:32:08,250
Speaker 1: a very small way, the creation of an incentive to

647
00:32:08,330 --> 00:32:12,010
Speaker 1: operate in a way that is focused on demonstrating impact,

648
00:32:12,330 --> 00:32:15,290
Speaker 1: because the dollars that we have to give, the dollars

649
00:32:15,290 --> 00:32:19,650
Speaker 1: that we have to influence, are going after that evidence

650
00:32:19,810 --> 00:32:22,890
Speaker 1: of strong impact. And I should say, of course, we

651
00:32:22,970 --> 00:32:26,690
Speaker 1: are just part of a larger and I think ever

652
00:32:26,770 --> 00:32:31,050
Speaker 1: growing ecosystem. You see this in the academics who launched

653
00:32:31,090 --> 00:32:36,850
Speaker 1: the randomized control trial movement in economics, organizations like Evidence Action,

654
00:32:37,770 --> 00:32:40,650
Speaker 1: the Clinton Health Access Initiative, give directly. I mean this,

655
00:32:40,930 --> 00:32:43,890
Speaker 1: it's a large and growing group of institutions, even beyond

656
00:32:43,930 --> 00:32:46,690
Speaker 1: the scope of just give well, that are operating in

657
00:32:46,730 --> 00:32:51,370
Speaker 1: a way that is explicitly aiming to deliver great results

658
00:32:51,490 --> 00:32:54,770
Speaker 1: and demonstrate that those results are coming to fruition. And

659
00:32:54,810 --> 00:32:57,130
Speaker 1: I think that is just a massive change from where

660
00:32:57,170 --> 00:32:58,370
Speaker 1: we were twenty years ago.

661
00:32:59,010 --> 00:33:02,890
Speaker 3: So you mentioned give directly, and as it happens the

662
00:33:02,890 --> 00:33:05,690
Speaker 3: there's a sort of charitable giving project out of one

663
00:33:05,770 --> 00:33:08,810
Speaker 3: of the shows at Pushkin that gives money to give

664
00:33:08,850 --> 00:33:12,850
Speaker 3: direct basically, and I'm curious about give well, sort of

665
00:33:12,890 --> 00:33:15,730
Speaker 3: ongoing evaluation of give directly, Like what do you think?

666
00:33:15,770 --> 00:33:17,570
Speaker 3: What do you think of give directly as work in

667
00:33:17,610 --> 00:33:22,850
Speaker 3: a quantitative professional way? Yeah, I think, like, extremely, extremely

668
00:33:22,930 --> 00:33:26,170
Speaker 3: highly of them. I've personally been a gift directly donor

669
00:33:26,410 --> 00:33:28,890
Speaker 3: for many years, you know, continue to give to them

670
00:33:28,970 --> 00:33:31,650
Speaker 3: last year and will this year because I really love

671
00:33:31,850 --> 00:33:34,050
Speaker 3: what they do. I think it's just so critical to say,

672
00:33:35,290 --> 00:33:37,530
Speaker 3: you know, with some of our giving, let's make sure

673
00:33:37,610 --> 00:33:41,450
Speaker 3: that we're just supporting people to purchase, you know, what

674
00:33:41,490 --> 00:33:42,250
Speaker 3: they most.

675
00:33:42,010 --> 00:33:45,890
Speaker 1: Want still to come.

676
00:33:45,890 --> 00:33:48,290
Speaker 3: On the show, Ellie talks about some of the most

677
00:33:48,290 --> 00:33:51,530
Speaker 3: surprising things he's seen in his nearly two decades in

678
00:33:51,570 --> 00:34:04,370
Speaker 3: the charity world. What do you make of the fact

679
00:34:04,770 --> 00:34:08,370
Speaker 3: that five thousand dollars can save a child's life?

680
00:34:09,410 --> 00:34:12,250
Speaker 1: I think it is just an illustration of on some

681
00:34:12,410 --> 00:34:16,170
Speaker 1: level how unjust our world is, you know, potentially, how

682
00:34:17,650 --> 00:34:20,650
Speaker 1: I think all of us, myself included, don't perhaps don't

683
00:34:20,690 --> 00:34:24,370
Speaker 1: really take it seriously as we should, the kind of

684
00:34:24,410 --> 00:34:28,490
Speaker 1: impact that we can have overseas. But fundamentally, you know,

685
00:34:28,490 --> 00:34:31,610
Speaker 1: I think it shows that something is very broken in

686
00:34:32,570 --> 00:34:38,530
Speaker 1: our system for allocating resources globally, because it's very hard

687
00:34:38,530 --> 00:34:42,290
Speaker 1: to accept that it's possible to save someone's life for

688
00:34:42,290 --> 00:34:43,410
Speaker 1: five thousand dollars.

689
00:34:43,810 --> 00:34:47,890
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean with all the money, even with all

690
00:34:47,930 --> 00:34:52,290
Speaker 3: the money that people give away, Like why don't people

691
00:34:52,370 --> 00:34:55,770
Speaker 3: give enough money to buy bed nets for kids so

692
00:34:55,810 --> 00:34:56,690
Speaker 3: they don't get malaria?

693
00:34:56,810 --> 00:34:59,250
Speaker 1: Right, Like, there's some amount of money. The more money.

694
00:34:58,970 --> 00:35:04,170
Speaker 3: People give, the less valuable each marginal net would be, right, Like,

695
00:35:05,090 --> 00:35:08,570
Speaker 3: why haven't people given enough money to these programs to

696
00:35:08,730 --> 00:35:11,450
Speaker 3: sort of of give away all the bed nets that

697
00:35:11,490 --> 00:35:13,050
Speaker 3: you need to give away and give away all the

698
00:35:13,050 --> 00:35:16,890
Speaker 3: malaria medicine that you'd need to give away to stop

699
00:35:16,970 --> 00:35:19,130
Speaker 3: kids from dying of malaria, at least in these high

700
00:35:19,170 --> 00:35:22,330
Speaker 3: intensity malaria areas where it's obvious that kids are going

701
00:35:22,410 --> 00:35:23,890
Speaker 3: to die of malaria every year.

702
00:35:24,650 --> 00:35:27,450
Speaker 1: I think, first of all, it's just worth noting how

703
00:35:27,530 --> 00:35:30,410
Speaker 1: much progress we have made globally in the last twenty

704
00:35:30,490 --> 00:35:35,770
Speaker 1: five years. The US government has given huge amounts to

705
00:35:36,650 --> 00:35:39,930
Speaker 1: a program called PEPFAR focused on HIV. The President's Malaria

706
00:35:39,930 --> 00:35:44,170
Speaker 1: Initiative focused on malaria and has been instrumental in the

707
00:35:44,170 --> 00:35:47,450
Speaker 1: creation of the Global Fund, which focuses on HTB and malaria,

708
00:35:47,850 --> 00:35:50,610
Speaker 1: and GAVI, which focuses on immanizations. So since the year

709
00:35:50,690 --> 00:35:54,450
Speaker 1: two thousand, the amount of funding going to global health

710
00:35:54,490 --> 00:35:58,530
Speaker 1: problems has gone up a huge amount. It has plateaued

711
00:35:58,530 --> 00:36:00,170
Speaker 1: more recently, but it's gone up a huge amount, and

712
00:36:00,250 --> 00:36:04,610
Speaker 1: we see a massive reduction in child mortality. So we're

713
00:36:04,610 --> 00:36:06,890
Speaker 1: doing a lot better today than we were in the

714
00:36:06,890 --> 00:36:10,770
Speaker 1: recent past. And then like, fundamentally, I don't know why

715
00:36:11,410 --> 00:36:15,690
Speaker 1: people don't give more or even give more to these charities, right,

716
00:36:15,810 --> 00:36:20,970
Speaker 1: It's it's more a question of direction. It's not even

717
00:36:21,010 --> 00:36:22,410
Speaker 1: why don't people give more money.

718
00:36:22,450 --> 00:36:25,730
Speaker 3: It's like, if it's really that easy to save a

719
00:36:25,810 --> 00:36:29,570
Speaker 3: kid's life, like we want that number to go up, right,

720
00:36:29,690 --> 00:36:32,170
Speaker 3: like the cheaper it is to save a kid's life.

721
00:36:32,210 --> 00:36:34,250
Speaker 3: I mean, it's kind of you cuts both ways. Right

722
00:36:34,290 --> 00:36:36,050
Speaker 3: on the one end, it's like, well, great, we know

723
00:36:36,090 --> 00:36:38,970
Speaker 3: a thing that is helpful. But on the other hand, like, well,

724
00:36:39,010 --> 00:36:40,490
Speaker 3: let's buy all the bed bets.

725
00:36:40,490 --> 00:36:44,050
Speaker 1: So it's not so easy do you know what I'm saying? Uh? Completely,

726
00:36:44,130 --> 00:36:46,570
Speaker 1: And and yeah, I think that you know, give Well

727
00:36:46,770 --> 00:36:49,210
Speaker 1: raises about three hundred million dollars a year. A Give

728
00:36:49,210 --> 00:36:52,410
Speaker 1: Well that was raising a billion dollars a year would

729
00:36:52,850 --> 00:36:56,570
Speaker 1: the marginal dollars would be much less less cost effective, right,

730
00:36:56,610 --> 00:36:58,250
Speaker 1: because we would have gone much further.

731
00:36:58,850 --> 00:37:00,850
Speaker 3: Weirdly, you want to get to a place where it's

732
00:37:00,890 --> 00:37:04,170
Speaker 3: more expensive to save a child's life, Like, the more

733
00:37:04,210 --> 00:37:06,530
Speaker 3: expensive it is, the less inequality there is in the world,

734
00:37:06,610 --> 00:37:08,290
Speaker 3: the more kids lives we're saving.

735
00:37:08,490 --> 00:37:12,450
Speaker 1: Exactly exactly, you know. And then I think I Give

736
00:37:12,450 --> 00:37:15,850
Speaker 1: Well itself is an institution that has raised much more

737
00:37:15,890 --> 00:37:18,610
Speaker 1: money over the last fifteen years than was raised previously

738
00:37:18,690 --> 00:37:21,050
Speaker 1: and is going and I think it reflects more people giving.

739
00:37:21,210 --> 00:37:24,130
Speaker 1: Why aren't people giving more to these programs? I think

740
00:37:24,130 --> 00:37:31,330
Speaker 1: because the honestly, the suffering and the poverty of say,

741
00:37:31,570 --> 00:37:35,050
Speaker 1: the poorest parts of Sub Saharan Africa is something that

742
00:37:35,090 --> 00:37:39,010
Speaker 1: we are largely blind to in our day to day lives.

743
00:37:39,010 --> 00:37:44,410
Speaker 1: It's not you know, we cover natural disasters when they occur,

744
00:37:45,210 --> 00:37:50,730
Speaker 1: but no one is covering literally the daily catastrophe of

745
00:37:51,450 --> 00:37:54,930
Speaker 1: child deaths due to infectious disease in sub Saharan Africa.

746
00:37:54,970 --> 00:37:58,170
Speaker 1: You know, very roughly one thousand children die every day

747
00:37:58,570 --> 00:38:01,970
Speaker 1: of malaria. We know how to prevent it, and that's

748
00:38:02,010 --> 00:38:05,050
Speaker 1: not covered because it's well, I guess it's I don't

749
00:38:05,090 --> 00:38:07,130
Speaker 1: know exactly why. That's a question for you, not for me,

750
00:38:07,330 --> 00:38:10,250
Speaker 1: but it's not covered. And I think that on some

751
00:38:10,450 --> 00:38:14,090
Speaker 1: level we're able to live as if it's not really

752
00:38:14,130 --> 00:38:16,690
Speaker 1: there in that motivating force to get people to see

753
00:38:16,690 --> 00:38:19,410
Speaker 1: it and then act isn't isn't happening.

754
00:38:20,410 --> 00:38:27,650
Speaker 3: You've been doing this now for fifteen years ish. If

755
00:38:27,690 --> 00:38:33,130
Speaker 3: you go back to when you started, what's been surprising

756
00:38:33,170 --> 00:38:34,650
Speaker 3: to you? What has happened in a way you would

757
00:38:34,650 --> 00:38:35,410
Speaker 3: not have expected.

758
00:38:36,450 --> 00:38:41,290
Speaker 1: I was really surprised when we started at how strange

759
00:38:41,930 --> 00:38:45,170
Speaker 1: our questions seem to the organizations that we were going to,

760
00:38:45,810 --> 00:38:51,410
Speaker 1: the question of how effective are your programs? How much

761
00:38:51,450 --> 00:38:54,290
Speaker 1: are you accomplishing, and how do you know? Seems like

762
00:38:54,370 --> 00:38:59,410
Speaker 1: a really an obvious question. Those are really surprising to me.

763
00:38:59,650 --> 00:39:02,410
Speaker 1: How much we've grown. When we started this, I think

764
00:39:02,450 --> 00:39:07,530
Speaker 1: we thought that we were just we were a couple

765
00:39:07,610 --> 00:39:11,210
Speaker 1: of guys who had this idiosyncratic interest in an approach

766
00:39:11,210 --> 00:39:14,130
Speaker 1: to charitable giving. And when we talk to people who

767
00:39:14,210 --> 00:39:19,090
Speaker 1: worked in philanthropy. They they reacted like we were nuts,

768
00:39:19,130 --> 00:39:21,330
Speaker 1: that no one would ever be into this. This is

769
00:39:21,330 --> 00:39:25,090
Speaker 1: not what donors go to gala's and donors like stories

770
00:39:25,090 --> 00:39:29,770
Speaker 1: and their names on buildings, and wow, it's shocking. You know,

771
00:39:29,810 --> 00:39:32,450
Speaker 1: people are people are normal. People are just giving three

772
00:39:32,530 --> 00:39:35,610
Speaker 1: hundred million dollars a year to help people around the world,

773
00:39:35,610 --> 00:39:38,530
Speaker 1: and they're buying large anonymous they're not getting their names

774
00:39:38,570 --> 00:39:41,770
Speaker 1: on buildings, and they're just you know, following along, trying

775
00:39:41,810 --> 00:39:43,130
Speaker 1: to make as big a difference as they can in

776
00:39:43,170 --> 00:39:46,250
Speaker 1: people's lives. So they'll never meet. And you know, on

777
00:39:46,330 --> 00:39:48,890
Speaker 1: some level that maybe that makes sense, but that's also

778
00:39:48,930 --> 00:39:49,650
Speaker 1: really surprising.

779
00:39:50,370 --> 00:39:53,570
Speaker 3: It seems like the happy surprise, the happy surprise. I

780
00:39:53,610 --> 00:39:55,570
Speaker 3: appreciate you time very much. It was great to talk

781
00:39:55,610 --> 00:39:57,450
Speaker 3: with you. Yeah, that was great to be here.

782
00:39:57,530 --> 00:39:57,970
Speaker 1: Thanks so much.

783
00:39:58,010 --> 00:40:03,130
Speaker 3: Jacob Ellie Hasenfeld is the co founder and CEO of

784
00:40:03,210 --> 00:40:07,850
Speaker 3: Gift Well. Last conversation on the show is with Nate

785
00:40:07,930 --> 00:40:11,490
Speaker 3: Silver and Maria on a Cova. Nate is a statistician,

786
00:40:11,930 --> 00:40:15,970
Speaker 3: Maria's a psychologist. They are both writers and together they

787
00:40:16,010 --> 00:40:17,330
Speaker 3: host a podcast.

788
00:40:16,890 --> 00:40:18,530
Speaker 1: Called Risky Business.

789
00:40:18,890 --> 00:40:22,730
Speaker 3: They are also both professional poker players, and that's really

790
00:40:22,810 --> 00:40:25,290
Speaker 3: why I wanted to talk to them about charitable giving.

791
00:40:25,770 --> 00:40:28,130
Speaker 3: One of the things they do on their show is

792
00:40:28,170 --> 00:40:31,050
Speaker 3: they talk about bringing a poker mindset to the decision

793
00:40:31,050 --> 00:40:33,850
Speaker 3: making of everyday life, and so I wanted to hear

794
00:40:33,890 --> 00:40:40,210
Speaker 3: from them how professional gamblers think about giving money away. So, like,

795
00:40:40,530 --> 00:40:44,010
Speaker 3: the core idea of the show is making better decisions

796
00:40:44,050 --> 00:40:48,570
Speaker 3: using this expected value framework right in like one sentence,

797
00:40:48,810 --> 00:40:50,530
Speaker 3: what's expected value?

798
00:40:50,890 --> 00:40:57,290
Speaker 5: Expected value is the net benefit you expect to get

799
00:40:57,890 --> 00:41:02,850
Speaker 5: averaged over all the uncertain outcomes. Now, I guess with

800
00:41:03,010 --> 00:41:07,210
Speaker 5: charitable giving, maybe it's more deterministic where we know, for example,

801
00:41:07,330 --> 00:41:10,050
Speaker 5: that mosquito nets in Africa have a high return on

802
00:41:10,170 --> 00:41:13,570
Speaker 5: investment they say lives and prevent male area at a

803
00:41:13,610 --> 00:41:15,850
Speaker 5: relative of low costs. It's not like a random element

804
00:41:15,890 --> 00:41:20,450
Speaker 5: there exactly, although there are always some implementation issues, But

805
00:41:20,530 --> 00:41:22,210
Speaker 5: really it's a framework about utility.

806
00:41:22,570 --> 00:41:24,730
Speaker 6: And I was just jump in a little bit to

807
00:41:24,770 --> 00:41:29,210
Speaker 6: say that, you know, we have the economic definition of

808
00:41:29,250 --> 00:41:33,010
Speaker 6: expected value, and then when you look at behavioral economics

809
00:41:33,050 --> 00:41:36,050
Speaker 6: and the way that people actually make decisions, you realize

810
00:41:36,050 --> 00:41:39,370
Speaker 6: that there's a lot of psychology involved as well, and

811
00:41:39,450 --> 00:41:43,970
Speaker 6: so calculating expected value is not as straightforward as just

812
00:41:44,210 --> 00:41:47,730
Speaker 6: kind of doing these dollar calculations, because you know, how

813
00:41:47,730 --> 00:41:50,410
Speaker 6: do you put a dollar amount on how good you

814
00:41:50,450 --> 00:41:53,410
Speaker 6: feel after a decision or how bad you feel, or

815
00:41:53,450 --> 00:41:55,890
Speaker 6: the regret that you might feel when you don't take

816
00:41:55,930 --> 00:41:58,490
Speaker 6: a decision. And when we're looking at kind of the

817
00:41:58,530 --> 00:42:01,850
Speaker 6: broader picture of expected value, you do have to try

818
00:42:01,850 --> 00:42:04,530
Speaker 6: to quantify that a little bit and try to account

819
00:42:04,570 --> 00:42:07,170
Speaker 6: for all of those different psychological factors that come into

820
00:42:07,170 --> 00:42:07,850
Speaker 6: play as well.

821
00:42:08,450 --> 00:42:10,530
Speaker 3: One of my favorite things about your show is when

822
00:42:10,530 --> 00:42:14,610
Speaker 3: you talk about the culture of professional poker players. Basically,

823
00:42:14,610 --> 00:42:17,970
Speaker 3: you're both professional poker players, and you live in this

824
00:42:18,130 --> 00:42:22,970
Speaker 3: universe where people treat money really differently. Right, And there

825
00:42:22,970 --> 00:42:25,210
Speaker 3: are these two terms that come up a lot on

826
00:42:25,250 --> 00:42:30,810
Speaker 3: the show, two kinds of people knits and djens. What's

827
00:42:30,810 --> 00:42:31,170
Speaker 3: a knit?

828
00:42:31,850 --> 00:42:32,970
Speaker 6: I'll leave this one to you, Nate.

829
00:42:34,970 --> 00:42:37,930
Speaker 5: A knit is basically George Costanzo, right. It's like a

830
00:42:38,610 --> 00:42:45,010
Speaker 5: neurotic risk of verse cheap, but more someone who is

831
00:42:45,050 --> 00:42:49,730
Speaker 5: so neurotic that they aren't taking plus ev bets. Right.

832
00:42:49,770 --> 00:42:52,290
Speaker 5: They're too conservative for their own good when it comes

833
00:42:52,330 --> 00:42:57,410
Speaker 5: to playing poker hands, for example, and have a low

834
00:42:57,490 --> 00:43:01,130
Speaker 5: openness to experience perhaps and can be annoying they're the

835
00:43:01,130 --> 00:43:05,810
Speaker 5: ones who want to itemize the bill when the checks.

836
00:43:05,570 --> 00:43:07,690
Speaker 3: Wait, I didn't eat the app. I shouldn't have to

837
00:43:07,730 --> 00:43:10,570
Speaker 3: pay for one third of the app. That's the naty behavior.

838
00:43:10,450 --> 00:43:13,810
Speaker 5: It, Yeah, Whereas a djen is someone who likes to gamble,

839
00:43:14,530 --> 00:43:18,570
Speaker 5: is risk tolerant, maybe to their own detriment, is freewheeling

840
00:43:18,650 --> 00:43:21,930
Speaker 5: with money and splashes around.

841
00:43:22,210 --> 00:43:25,450
Speaker 3: Yes, and DGEN is short for degenerate gambler, but in

842
00:43:25,490 --> 00:43:29,490
Speaker 3: a loving way, right, that's my favorite. Yeah, So in

843
00:43:29,530 --> 00:43:34,490
Speaker 3: your experience, who is more generous a degenerate knit djen?

844
00:43:34,770 --> 00:43:36,130
Speaker 1: Absolutely? Oh, yeah, for sure.

845
00:43:36,690 --> 00:43:37,770
Speaker 6: I don't think it's even close.

846
00:43:38,930 --> 00:43:40,890
Speaker 1: You guys give to charity.

847
00:43:42,130 --> 00:43:45,050
Speaker 6: I give to charitable causes that I believe in. So

848
00:43:45,290 --> 00:43:49,810
Speaker 6: for instance, I gave a lot of money to Ukraine

849
00:43:50,170 --> 00:43:54,850
Speaker 6: when Russia invaded, And that is how kind of I

850
00:43:54,930 --> 00:43:58,450
Speaker 6: calculate my charitable giving. I understand that mosquito nets in

851
00:43:58,450 --> 00:44:01,250
Speaker 6: Africa are incredibly important. I have not given to malaria

852
00:44:01,330 --> 00:44:04,210
Speaker 6: because that is not something that you know, I feel

853
00:44:04,210 --> 00:44:07,090
Speaker 6: strongly about. There are other people feel strongly about that.

854
00:44:07,210 --> 00:44:09,290
Speaker 6: So for me part of it, you know, I I

855
00:44:09,290 --> 00:44:12,330
Speaker 6: have given to educational causes. You know, I give to

856
00:44:12,410 --> 00:44:15,290
Speaker 6: things that I have a connection with and that I

857
00:44:15,330 --> 00:44:17,090
Speaker 6: feel also are underfunded.

858
00:44:17,610 --> 00:44:20,290
Speaker 3: Mari you mentioned given to Ukraine, and I mean I

859
00:44:20,330 --> 00:44:22,730
Speaker 3: know you a little bit, I know your your life

860
00:44:22,770 --> 00:44:25,370
Speaker 3: story seems connected to that, right, tell me about your

861
00:44:25,370 --> 00:44:28,650
Speaker 3: connection to helping Ukraine defend itself against Russia.

862
00:44:28,730 --> 00:44:28,970
Speaker 2: Yeah.

863
00:44:29,050 --> 00:44:33,050
Speaker 6: So my dad is Ukrainian and my mom is from Moscow,

864
00:44:33,490 --> 00:44:36,770
Speaker 6: and I was born in Moscow and then came to

865
00:44:36,810 --> 00:44:39,930
Speaker 6: the United States when I was four years old and

866
00:44:40,170 --> 00:44:46,130
Speaker 6: have always been very anti the autocratic tendencies of Russia,

867
00:44:47,010 --> 00:44:50,650
Speaker 6: very anti Putin And I think you know when Putin

868
00:44:50,650 --> 00:44:54,170
Speaker 6: invent invaded Ukraine. To me, that was a no brainer.

869
00:44:54,410 --> 00:44:56,250
Speaker 6: I think at this point Ukraine is one of the

870
00:44:56,250 --> 00:44:59,530
Speaker 6: only things standing between us and the Third World War,

871
00:45:00,050 --> 00:45:02,890
Speaker 6: basically the fact that they're able to resist him. So

872
00:45:02,970 --> 00:45:07,650
Speaker 6: for me, it was incredibly personal. And so I'm all

873
00:45:07,690 --> 00:45:09,090
Speaker 6: in on the Zelenski camp.

874
00:45:10,130 --> 00:45:15,010
Speaker 5: Nate Silver, do you give money away? I'm having to reevaluate.

875
00:45:15,810 --> 00:45:17,090
Speaker 5: I mean, the short answers I haven't.

876
00:45:17,210 --> 00:45:17,770
Speaker 1: Uh huh.

877
00:45:17,970 --> 00:45:20,530
Speaker 3: Does either saying on a show that you haven't given

878
00:45:20,530 --> 00:45:23,410
Speaker 3: money away, or hearing Maria talk about giving money away,

879
00:45:23,610 --> 00:45:26,810
Speaker 3: like honestly, does it you think it makes it any

880
00:45:26,810 --> 00:45:28,130
Speaker 3: more likely that you'll give money away.

881
00:45:28,170 --> 00:45:29,610
Speaker 1: Do you think it's going to have any effect on you.

882
00:45:29,970 --> 00:45:33,570
Speaker 5: I'm generally not a person who is governed by guilt.

883
00:45:33,810 --> 00:45:35,770
Speaker 1: Ah, that's I mean, I think I should.

884
00:45:36,410 --> 00:45:40,170
Speaker 5: There's like a lot of long term financial planning that

885
00:45:40,210 --> 00:45:42,570
Speaker 5: gets put off. I mean, these are discussions that you know,

886
00:45:42,650 --> 00:45:46,970
Speaker 5: my household we've had and so we're we're aware of

887
00:45:47,010 --> 00:45:49,450
Speaker 5: this question and what we want to do with our

888
00:45:49,490 --> 00:45:51,850
Speaker 5: money in the long term, member thinking about it actively,

889
00:45:51,930 --> 00:45:57,610
Speaker 5: but kind of things get short circuited during I mean clearly,

890
00:45:57,610 --> 00:45:59,570
Speaker 5: I think that you know, in some abstract sense, you

891
00:45:59,570 --> 00:46:02,490
Speaker 5: are being selfish. If you're not you have a comfortable life,

892
00:46:02,490 --> 00:46:06,770
Speaker 5: then you are being selfish to not give. But it's

893
00:46:06,770 --> 00:46:07,770
Speaker 5: easy to make excuses.

894
00:46:08,130 --> 00:46:11,650
Speaker 3: I appreciate your hown So Nate, does that make you

895
00:46:11,690 --> 00:46:14,410
Speaker 3: a knit and Maria the DJ in I never would

896
00:46:14,410 --> 00:46:17,170
Speaker 3: have guessed, well, but I am.

897
00:46:17,370 --> 00:46:18,530
Speaker 1: I think Maria is also.

898
00:46:18,610 --> 00:46:21,210
Speaker 5: I am generous in those other ways yea, and things

899
00:46:21,250 --> 00:46:24,730
Speaker 5: like tips with things like you know, picking up checks,

900
00:46:24,770 --> 00:46:27,690
Speaker 5: even a fairly expensive meals or something for my friends.

901
00:46:27,690 --> 00:46:30,650
Speaker 5: And so maybe psychologically that feels more satisfying than the

902
00:46:30,730 --> 00:46:33,050
Speaker 5: abstract charitable giving.

903
00:46:33,290 --> 00:46:35,930
Speaker 3: Yes, I mean that is an interesting tension, right, like

904
00:46:36,010 --> 00:46:38,490
Speaker 3: it feels better to buy lunch for your friend than

905
00:46:38,530 --> 00:46:41,250
Speaker 3: to send the money off to somebody thousands of miles away,

906
00:46:41,370 --> 00:46:45,330
Speaker 3: even though obviously the marginal benefit of that whatever one

907
00:46:45,410 --> 00:46:48,850
Speaker 3: hundred bucks, fifty bucks, any any bucks, is clearly greater

908
00:46:48,930 --> 00:46:50,930
Speaker 3: if you send it off thousands.

909
00:46:50,930 --> 00:46:53,730
Speaker 5: Jacob in the York, fifty bucks would be great.

910
00:46:54,010 --> 00:46:55,450
Speaker 1: I was trying to be I was trying to be

911
00:46:55,450 --> 00:46:58,330
Speaker 1: a man of the people. And when are we getting dinner?

912
00:46:59,130 --> 00:47:01,810
Speaker 6: I totally agree, and yeah, And I also just want

913
00:47:01,850 --> 00:47:04,490
Speaker 6: to want to add a little bit to say that

914
00:47:05,570 --> 00:47:09,570
Speaker 6: I think that in this particular case, like role models

915
00:47:09,650 --> 00:47:14,210
Speaker 6: really do matter when it comes to charitable giving tendencies,

916
00:47:14,250 --> 00:47:18,850
Speaker 6: so psychologically speaking. And one of the things that has

917
00:47:18,930 --> 00:47:22,170
Speaker 6: made me actually kind of give more than I have

918
00:47:22,290 --> 00:47:24,770
Speaker 6: in the past is my parents, who don't have a

919
00:47:24,770 --> 00:47:28,930
Speaker 6: lot of money and you know, our single income because

920
00:47:29,170 --> 00:47:35,450
Speaker 6: my mom no longer works, and they give a recurring

921
00:47:35,490 --> 00:47:39,490
Speaker 6: donation every single month to causes that they believe strongly in,

922
00:47:39,490 --> 00:47:42,050
Speaker 6: including Ukraine. And when I think about it, I'm like,

923
00:47:42,090 --> 00:47:43,850
Speaker 6: you can't afford to do this, and yet they do it,

924
00:47:44,730 --> 00:47:48,050
Speaker 6: and that you know it I won't say guilts me

925
00:47:48,210 --> 00:47:51,050
Speaker 6: into but like it may, it makes me realize that,

926
00:47:51,170 --> 00:47:54,290
Speaker 6: like you know, it is important when you are donating

927
00:47:54,370 --> 00:47:57,010
Speaker 6: to causes where it actually makes a difference. Nate and

928
00:47:57,090 --> 00:48:01,290
Speaker 6: I talked a lot on our podcast about kind of

929
00:48:01,370 --> 00:48:05,450
Speaker 6: donating to political campaigns, and you know, don't donate to

930
00:48:05,850 --> 00:48:08,930
Speaker 6: the presidential campaign because they don't need the money. But I,

931
00:48:09,330 --> 00:48:11,770
Speaker 6: you know, I think that that's kind of that's what

932
00:48:11,810 --> 00:48:14,410
Speaker 6: we're talking about at the end. Where do you donate

933
00:48:14,530 --> 00:48:16,970
Speaker 6: in a way that your money actually makes an impact

934
00:48:17,130 --> 00:48:19,330
Speaker 6: right now? And it doesn't have to be millions of dollars,

935
00:48:19,370 --> 00:48:21,210
Speaker 6: right you can leave I hope I have millions to

936
00:48:21,290 --> 00:48:24,050
Speaker 6: leave at the end of my life to good causes,

937
00:48:24,330 --> 00:48:27,290
Speaker 6: but you know, there are causes where even a few

938
00:48:27,370 --> 00:48:29,850
Speaker 6: hundred dollars actually can make a huge difference.

939
00:48:30,610 --> 00:48:33,610
Speaker 5: But I guess because there probably is some pleasure from it, right,

940
00:48:33,650 --> 00:48:36,130
Speaker 5: you kind of recognize the efemeral nature of money and

941
00:48:36,170 --> 00:48:37,610
Speaker 5: it's kind of more an emotional reaction.

942
00:48:37,730 --> 00:48:38,570
Speaker 1: And then when.

943
00:48:40,330 --> 00:48:41,850
Speaker 5: I mean thinking about charity, it's kind of the more

944
00:48:41,890 --> 00:48:44,170
Speaker 5: rational part of your brain.

945
00:48:44,250 --> 00:48:44,970
Speaker 1: Right you can make.

946
00:48:44,850 --> 00:48:47,010
Speaker 5: Excuses along lines of well, maybe just give it away

947
00:48:47,010 --> 00:48:48,010
Speaker 5: at the end of my life. And I pay a

948
00:48:48,010 --> 00:48:51,450
Speaker 5: lot of taxes, and you know, figuring out where to

949
00:48:51,490 --> 00:48:53,810
Speaker 5: give is a discussion to have with your partner, and

950
00:48:53,850 --> 00:48:56,250
Speaker 5: that can get you know, we'd have disagreements about that,

951
00:48:56,290 --> 00:48:58,770
Speaker 5: and so it's different than the kind of oh, it's

952
00:48:58,850 --> 00:49:01,210
Speaker 5: get a nice bottle of wine and I'll I'll pick

953
00:49:01,250 --> 00:49:03,330
Speaker 5: up dinner to night because I know you had a

954
00:49:03,370 --> 00:49:04,970
Speaker 5: rough tournament series or something like that.

955
00:49:05,170 --> 00:49:09,090
Speaker 1: Huh. I never thought of you as such an amoe.

956
00:49:10,530 --> 00:49:14,090
Speaker 3: So so I'm curious in particular, So this, this show

957
00:49:14,530 --> 00:49:18,130
Speaker 3: is about giving away money fundamentally, and you know, we

958
00:49:18,130 --> 00:49:21,210
Speaker 3: can talk about you know, maximizing ev and what charities

959
00:49:21,210 --> 00:49:23,770
Speaker 3: are good, but there's also just this more general idea

960
00:49:23,770 --> 00:49:27,090
Speaker 3: of pro social behavior. Spending money on your friends is

961
00:49:27,170 --> 00:49:30,410
Speaker 3: part of this. And so I'm curious, what's your favorite

962
00:49:30,450 --> 00:49:33,690
Speaker 3: djen dropping a bunch of money on their friends on charity,

963
00:49:33,810 --> 00:49:35,170
Speaker 3: on anything story.

964
00:49:35,410 --> 00:49:38,570
Speaker 6: Yeah, well, this isn't This isn't d Jenny, but I

965
00:49:38,570 --> 00:49:42,690
Speaker 6: think it's something that is quite important. The poker community

966
00:49:42,730 --> 00:49:46,090
Speaker 6: actually does give a shit ton of money to charity.

967
00:49:46,250 --> 00:49:49,010
Speaker 6: You know, those aren't the fun D Jenny stories, but

968
00:49:49,010 --> 00:49:51,650
Speaker 6: but that's I think, you know, I think it's important

969
00:49:51,650 --> 00:49:54,970
Speaker 6: to note that poker players actually are on top of this,

970
00:49:55,130 --> 00:49:57,490
Speaker 6: and there are a lot of poker players giving millions

971
00:49:57,850 --> 00:50:00,050
Speaker 6: to charity and matching charitable donations.

972
00:50:01,290 --> 00:50:03,050
Speaker 1: Thanks you, guys, it was a delight to talk to you.

973
00:50:03,530 --> 00:50:04,730
Speaker 5: Thank you, thank you.

974
00:50:07,770 --> 00:50:10,090
Speaker 3: So just before we in the show, I want to

975
00:50:10,130 --> 00:50:12,930
Speaker 3: just mention one last thing. There was a moment in

976
00:50:12,970 --> 00:50:17,010
Speaker 3: that last conversation when Nate was talking about the reasons

977
00:50:17,050 --> 00:50:20,610
Speaker 3: he hasn't given money. You know how giving money to

978
00:50:20,690 --> 00:50:23,490
Speaker 3: charity has tied up with all these other household financial

979
00:50:23,490 --> 00:50:26,490
Speaker 3: planning decisions, et cetera, et cetera. And I thought back

980
00:50:26,490 --> 00:50:28,850
Speaker 3: to that thing that Lori Santo said at the beginning

981
00:50:28,850 --> 00:50:32,290
Speaker 3: of the show about friction. You know how friction and

982
00:50:32,450 --> 00:50:34,850
Speaker 3: not knowing how to give or who to give to

983
00:50:35,170 --> 00:50:37,850
Speaker 3: winds up being this huge barrier. And I thought about

984
00:50:37,850 --> 00:50:40,650
Speaker 3: how Ellie Hassenfeld has spent all this time trying to

985
00:50:40,690 --> 00:50:43,210
Speaker 3: find charities that are very clearly doing good that you

986
00:50:43,250 --> 00:50:46,890
Speaker 3: can just give money to and feel good about. So

987
00:50:46,970 --> 00:50:49,650
Speaker 3: to close out the show today and to fight against

988
00:50:49,650 --> 00:50:51,250
Speaker 3: friction in my own life, I'm going to go right

989
00:50:51,290 --> 00:50:55,930
Speaker 3: now to that website that Laurie was talking about giving

990
00:50:56,370 --> 00:50:59,850
Speaker 3: multiplier dot org slash.

991
00:50:59,730 --> 00:51:04,010
Speaker 1: Happiness Lab, and I'm going to give fifty bucks. Is

992
00:51:04,050 --> 00:51:06,410
Speaker 1: it the perfect amount of money? I don't know. I'm

993
00:51:06,450 --> 00:51:07,690
Speaker 1: just gonna do it right now.

994
00:51:15,090 --> 00:51:18,130
Speaker 3: Thanks very much to Nate Silver and Maria Konakova, the

995
00:51:18,170 --> 00:51:21,930
Speaker 3: host of Risky Business, Ellie Hassenfeld of GiveWell, and to

996
00:51:22,010 --> 00:51:24,650
Speaker 3: Lrie Santos, the host of The Happiness Lab, who got

997
00:51:24,730 --> 00:51:28,650
Speaker 3: me thinking about giving Tuesday in the first place. Today's

998
00:51:28,650 --> 00:51:32,450
Speaker 3: show was produced by Lucy Sullivan and Isabelle Carter, edited

999
00:51:32,490 --> 00:51:37,610
Speaker 3: by Sarah Nix, and engineered by Jake Gorsky. Special thanks

1000
00:51:37,650 --> 00:51:41,170
Speaker 3: to Ryan Dilly, Farah Daygrunge and Owen Miller. I'm Jacob

1001
00:51:41,170 --> 00:51:44,170
Speaker 3: Goldstein and I host the Pushkin Show What's Your Problem?

1002
00:51:44,210 --> 00:51:45,010
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.