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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Serious ex M Triumph

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Speaker 1: Channel one thirty two. Welcome to a special New Year's

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Speaker 1: Day edition of Crime Stories with Nancy Grits. We start

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Speaker 1: eighteen by looking at psychic detectives who helped solve crimes.

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Speaker 1: Believe them or not, their stories are fascinating. I never

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Speaker 1: once introduced a psychic into court because a it's not

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Speaker 1: hard evidence be the defense would cross examine those witnesses

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Speaker 1: to h E, double l and back. So in my

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Speaker 1: world as a felony prosecutor, if I can't see it,

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Speaker 1: touch it, smell it, here it, it doesn't exist in

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Speaker 1: the world of hard evidence. And my job was to

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Speaker 1: put hard evidence in front of a jury to prove

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Speaker 1: somebody needed to go to jail for the rest of

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Speaker 1: their life or worse. But then everything changed. I Meancy Grace,

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Speaker 1: this is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 1: What do you think about psychics and specifically about psychic detectives,

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Speaker 1: because today we have an all star lineup of some

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Speaker 1: of the most well known psychics in the world to

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Speaker 1: talk about not just does another realm exist, but what

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Speaker 1: they have done to help solve criminal cases. With me,

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Speaker 1: Noreen Rnair gil st John, Alison Dubois and of course

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Speaker 1: death investigator Joseph Scott Morgan forensic expert, to weigh in

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Speaker 1: on the let's just say the world of here and

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Speaker 1: now and Alan, Jackie Howard, We're all here and again

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Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. I'll tell you just

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Speaker 1: got mortgage. It's you an ideal and harsh reality and

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Speaker 1: cold hard fact. Before I get to our ladies, just

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Speaker 1: got Come on. If I tried to bring a psychic

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Speaker 1: into court, I would be laughed down the courthouse hallway

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Speaker 1: right out the front door. And I could be looking

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Speaker 1: for a job I don't know, uh, door to door

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Speaker 1: back and cleaner salesperson. I guess I don't know what

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Speaker 1: I would be doing with that law degree, because there

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Speaker 1: would be enough skeptics too ruin a verdict and I

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Speaker 1: could never risk that. Yeah, Nancy, I'm a I'm a

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Speaker 1: forensic scientist, and I concur with uh with much of

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Speaker 1: what you had said relative to being able to not

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Speaker 1: just qualify, but quantify those things that we see before

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Speaker 1: us in the field and in the laboratory, that sort

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Speaker 1: of thing. And it's very hard with that exactly. But

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Speaker 1: I'll tell you what changed my mind This is when

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Speaker 1: it all changed for me. I had been out of

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Speaker 1: the Court for Courtroom for a year or two and

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Speaker 1: I got um drafted by the Larry King staff and

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Speaker 1: to be not just a guest, but to be Larry's

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Speaker 1: regular guest host for about five years. And it was

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Speaker 1: an honor and a privilege to do that. And I

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Speaker 1: remember one time Larry had to go somewhere. He was

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Speaker 1: out in California and I was in New York. He

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Speaker 1: had to go somewhere out of town. He couldn't tape

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Speaker 1: that day, he couldn't go live. We went live that

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Speaker 1: night on Psychic Detectives, and I gotta tell you, I'm like, oh, okay, whatever,

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Speaker 1: I'll do it, I'll do it. So I started preparing

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Speaker 1: for the show. You know, I would do hours and

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Speaker 1: hours of preparation and listen to this Joe Scott Morgan,

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Speaker 1: Mr nonbeliever. I started reading about a Burbank woman who

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Speaker 1: had never had a psychic vision in her life, and

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Speaker 1: she allegedly has a psychic vision. And I've putting that

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Speaker 1: in quoties that leads detectives to the body of a

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Speaker 1: murder victim. Now this is what went down. This woman

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Speaker 1: Etta Louise Smith out of the Blue, says that she

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Speaker 1: had a vision about a body out in the middle

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Speaker 1: of like a canyon rural area, and I think, as

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Speaker 1: I recall it, that she saw white Okay today. She

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Speaker 1: she she keeps having the vision and it's so overwhelming.

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Speaker 1: She gets members of her family to go with her

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Speaker 1: and they go driving around Joe Scott. They find the

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Speaker 1: body of a beautiful young nurse. It was two days

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Speaker 1: after the nurse is very highly publicized disappearance. As I

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Speaker 1: recall it, the nurse us was coming home from work

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Speaker 1: one evening. You know, they have crazy shifts at a hospital.

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Speaker 1: She's at a red light and a bunch of guys

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Speaker 1: that she didn't know drove up beside her and they

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Speaker 1: kidnapped her and ended up beating her and dumping her

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Speaker 1: body in a rural area above lake View Terraces okay Um.

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Speaker 1: About forty five minutes after she finds the body with

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Speaker 1: her family members, they called police and the police are

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Speaker 1: there now. She is there with two of her children

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Speaker 1: and a niece and they find the body and they

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Speaker 1: leave police to the location in Lopez Canyon out in

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Speaker 1: the middle of a canyon, Jobe Scott. She finds a body. Well,

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Speaker 1: they the police get there and guess what they do?

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Speaker 1: They arrest her. After hours and hours of interrogation, they

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Speaker 1: arrest at a Smith Nancy. Let's listen to what Eda

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Speaker 1: Smith told Oprah Winfrey about how she followed her psychic

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Speaker 1: instincts and got arrested for it. Well, what really brought

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Speaker 1: it about was I was listening to a news broadcast

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Speaker 1: on a radio, and uh, the night before a girlfriend

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Speaker 1: had called me on the phone and asked me if

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Speaker 1: I had heard about a nurse who had been kidnapped,

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Speaker 1: and you felt what? Um, Well, what really brought it

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Speaker 1: about was I was listening to a news broadcast on

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Speaker 1: a radio, and uh. The night before, a girlfriend had

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Speaker 1: called me on the phone and asked me if I

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Speaker 1: had heard about a nurse who had been kidnapped and

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Speaker 1: was missing in our area, and I said no, I

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Speaker 1: hadn't heard about it. So that day at work. The

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Speaker 1: following day, at work, I listened to the radio and

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Speaker 1: they said that they had found the ladies vehicle on

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Speaker 1: a dead industreet and that they were making a house

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Speaker 1: to house search for her. And as soon as they

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Speaker 1: said house to house search, it was as if I

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Speaker 1: heard someone speaking to me, says she's not in a house.

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Speaker 1: And as soon as that thought registered, I saw exactly

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Speaker 1: where she was. It was like there was a picture

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Speaker 1: in front of me. Who I I didn't know the

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Speaker 1: name of the street, but I knew the area, I

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Speaker 1: knew how to get there, and I just I just knew.

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Speaker 1: So what did you do? Tell called police? Well, this

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Speaker 1: was about three o'clock in the afternoon. I was at work.

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Speaker 1: I'd get off work at three thirty and I'm arguing

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Speaker 1: with myself all the way home because when I get

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Speaker 1: to a certain intersection, I either turn right to go

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Speaker 1: home or I can turn left and I'll be right

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Speaker 1: in front of the police department. So I'm saying I

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Speaker 1: should stop, and I'm saying now I should go home. Well,

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Speaker 1: when I got to that intersection, I said, let him

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Speaker 1: think I'm nuts. I have to stop. And it's exactly

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Speaker 1: what I did. I talked to a homicide investigator, told

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Speaker 1: him exactly the area. I said, I I knew that

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Speaker 1: it's on the right hand side going up this canyon road,

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Speaker 1: and that there was a dirt path going towards uh

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Speaker 1: this person and with the heel behind her. He said

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Speaker 1: they had not checked that area, but that they would,

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Speaker 1: and I said, well, you know, I have a feeling

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Speaker 1: I will also. Inside I wanted to be wrong, but

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Speaker 1: I also felt that if I didn't check, I'd never

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Speaker 1: know the truth. I'd never know if they checked, I'd

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Speaker 1: never know for sure whether I was right or wrong.

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Speaker 1: And I wanted to be wrong. I was hoping I

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Speaker 1: was really wrong. So you went there yourself, or you

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Speaker 1: went there with them? No, I went by. I didn't

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Speaker 1: go with them. I went home. I told my children

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Speaker 1: why I was late coming home, and they wanted to

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Speaker 1: go with me. I told him I was going. And

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Speaker 1: I feel bad about that now because at the time

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Speaker 1: I wasn't thinking properly. I wouldn't have taken the children

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Speaker 1: out to look for someone. But as he was saying,

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Speaker 1: when you get in, because how how old were your children? Nine? Ten? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: I took two children with me, plus a niece who

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Speaker 1: was twenty one at the time. And you found the

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Speaker 1: body ultimately, yeah, yeah, you found the body. And and

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Speaker 1: and you were saying what Charles was saying that what

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Speaker 1: when you get close? Because I knew when we got

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Speaker 1: in the canyon, I could I could feel um, I

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Speaker 1: could feel the terror. I could feel vibrations of something

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Speaker 1: that wasn't normal. I felt scared myself, you know, I

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Speaker 1: could feel it just like he since Jennifer, since her.

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Speaker 1: You said you felt her. That is amazing, That is amazing.

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Speaker 1: Police later arrested you because well, they said I knew

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Speaker 1: too much about it not to have been involved, because

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Speaker 1: I had this rived in detail where she was up

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Speaker 1: this canyon road on the side, on the right side,

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Speaker 1: with a dirt path going to her and I held

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Speaker 1: behind her. I said I had to have been there

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Speaker 1: to have known that. So long story short, Joe Scott.

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Speaker 1: She didn't take kindly, as you can imagine, getting arrested.

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Speaker 1: After hours and hours of interrogation, she sued l A

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Speaker 1: p D. And she got a huge settlement from l

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Speaker 1: A p D. Now, when I read this story, and

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Speaker 1: I read several more like it, and I did the

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Speaker 1: Larry King show that night, and I was questioning the

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Speaker 1: cops that were on the case, cops Joe Scott, police officers,

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Speaker 1: and they're like, we don't understand it, but it happened

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Speaker 1: in Joe Scott. We did several shows like that, and

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Speaker 1: we would have three or four cases on each show.

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Speaker 1: And I got the opportunity to talk to the sidekicks,

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Speaker 1: which I had never done before, to question the police officers,

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Speaker 1: some of the victims families, and I walked away going, Okay,

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Speaker 1: this does not make sense in my head, but it happened.

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Speaker 1: I don't It's just like you know, the telephone and

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Speaker 1: the TV and the radio and the cell phone. I

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Speaker 1: don't know how it happens, but I know that it

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Speaker 1: does happen. I know when I flicked the light switch,

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Speaker 1: light comes on. I don't have to think about, Wow,

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Speaker 1: how did we harness electricity? How do we get it

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Speaker 1: into the room without burning the house down? I don't

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Speaker 1: think about that, but I know that it happens. Joe

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Speaker 1: Scott and this happened. I think that for us, you know,

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Speaker 1: we're for us in investigations, were so pragmatic about everything,

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Speaker 1: and and we spend we spend so much of our

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Speaker 1: time trying to cut through what is fact and what

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Speaker 1: is fiction. We were lied to a lot, I think

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Speaker 1: in our field, UH trying to get to the truth.

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Speaker 1: And it's we're biased in that sense in that we

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Speaker 1: assume many times that most of the people that we're

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Speaker 1: talking to are trying to deceive us. In some well,

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Speaker 1: I hear what you're saying, and that may be true,

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Speaker 1: and I'm not saying that's not true. Your point. What

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Speaker 1: I'm saying is if I can't understand it, if it's

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Speaker 1: not two plus two equals four, I'm not putting in

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Speaker 1: front of a jury, bam. End of story. If I

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Speaker 1: can't prove it at a crime lab, or I can't

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Speaker 1: see it here it tasted, touch it, or smell it,

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Speaker 1: it's not my world until I spoke to Edda. With

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Speaker 1: me right now, three of the most well known psychics

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Speaker 1: literally in the world, Noreen Ranair, Gail st John, Alison

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Speaker 1: du Bois. First to you, Alison du Bois, so great, ladies,

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Speaker 1: to have all of you. Alison, tell me how you

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Speaker 1: became a psychic. When did you first have any psychic

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Speaker 1: vision or experience? Um? I it started when I was

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Speaker 1: really little. I mean I was six years old and

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Speaker 1: I went to the first funeral I ever attended, and

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Speaker 1: it was my great grandfather's. And I came home from

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Speaker 1: his funeral and my mom tucked me into bed, and

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Speaker 1: I looked at the foot of my bed and he

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Speaker 1: was standing there, and he he actually looked like he

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Speaker 1: had no lines on his face, and he looked happy,

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Speaker 1: and he said, tell your mom, I'm not in pain

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Speaker 1: anymore and I'm still with her because he had died

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Speaker 1: of intestinal cancer or very painful death. So I got

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Speaker 1: out of bed and I told my mom, Grandpa's in

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Speaker 1: my room and he says, to tell you he's not

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Speaker 1: in pain anymore and he's still with you, and um,

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Speaker 1: she told me to go back to bed. So it

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Speaker 1: was the seventies. They didn't know what to do with

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Speaker 1: kids like me at the time, so that was my

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Speaker 1: first experience. You know, I'm I'm looking at a photo

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Speaker 1: of you right now, Alison du Bois, Alison Dubois, do

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Speaker 1: you b brother? Oh? I S dot com? And I

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Speaker 1: already know you, but I'm just looking at you. And um.

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Speaker 1: When people think of mediums or psychics, they think of

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Speaker 1: some crack pot uh dressed and I guess a gypsy

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Speaker 1: outfit over a fake crystal ball in a dark room. Okay,

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Speaker 1: that's that's what they think of. It couldn't if you

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Speaker 1: guys look up these three ladies, Noreen, Gail and Alison.

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Speaker 1: They're beautiful and there I guess I only and I

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Speaker 1: don't mean this as an insult. They're normal. They're regular

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Speaker 1: people like you and me that have had an event

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Speaker 1: in their lives that took them down the road of

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Speaker 1: psychic medium. So tell me when your next vision was

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Speaker 1: or your next I don't know if I call it

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Speaker 1: a vision or experience. Allison. You know, I had experiences

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Speaker 1: through my whole childhood. I guess when I was a teenager,

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Speaker 1: when you get really turned up because of the hormones

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Speaker 1: and all um, I moved my bed from against the

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Speaker 1: south wall over to the east wall. And my friend Barbara,

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Speaker 1: who was ending the night that night, was like, what

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Speaker 1: did you do that for? And I said, you know

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Speaker 1: voice that I've heard my whole life told me to

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Speaker 1: move the bed, and I said, so I moved the

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Speaker 1: bed because it has already saved my life once before,

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Speaker 1: when I was eleven and um, that night a truck

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Speaker 1: drift through my bedroom wall and if I hadn't moved

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Speaker 1: the bed, Barber and I would have been under the truck.

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Speaker 1: So my friends always just chalked it up so well,

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Speaker 1: that's just Allison, you know. So I thought everybody could

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Speaker 1: do what I did. They just didn't talk about it,

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Speaker 1: like wink wink, not not. But it wasn't until I

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Speaker 1: was in turning a homicide to be a prosecutor. That

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Speaker 1: I start, I realized that other people didn't necessarily see

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Speaker 1: her hear what I was seeing and hearing, and that

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Speaker 1: was news to me. Um Alison Jackie Howard my buddy

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Speaker 1: here in the studio. It's Alands counterpart. We're both holding

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Speaker 1: up her arms to compare goose bumps. Also with me

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Speaker 1: in addition to Alison du Bois at Allison Dubois dot com,

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Speaker 1: Arene Ranier and Gail Saint John Norraine. If it's not

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Speaker 1: too intrusive again, ladies, thank you to all three of

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Speaker 1: you being with dust Marine. When was your first I

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Speaker 1: don't know what else to call it but psychic experience.

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Speaker 1: I was all grown up and I was pretty much

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Speaker 1: a skeptic. I thought all psychics told clients table could

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Speaker 1: marry a told ark handsome man, and they stole chickens

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Speaker 1: or something of the sort. So I was very surprised

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Speaker 1: when I started meditating. Uh. I didn't believe in psychic phenomena,

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Speaker 1: and I went almost immediately into a trance and gave

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Speaker 1: a Winnebagel Indian who was at the table with my girlfriend,

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Speaker 1: who was also skeptic. The next nun. Uh information, which

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Speaker 1: hold on, I've got two skeptics, and one is the

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Speaker 1: next nun. You know. That just reminds me. Let me

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Speaker 1: tell you, Norain. When I was a FED before I

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Speaker 1: became a felony prosecutor, I was prosecuting uh some people

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Speaker 1: with the Federal Trade Commission in the Consumer Protection and

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Speaker 1: I Trust division. And it was a weight loss product,

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Speaker 1: which I knew from examining and speaking to scientists, had

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Speaker 1: nothing in it at all that would be at weight loss.

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Speaker 1: It's something called gore g u a R. I've never

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Speaker 1: had a chance to work that into a conversation since

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Speaker 1: that time, but are kind of expands in your stomach

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Speaker 1: and makes you feel full for a minute and then

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Speaker 1: basically no, nothing to make you lose weight. Then I

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Speaker 1: started sifting through all the letters of complaints and I

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00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:31,160
Speaker 1: found one letter from a nun that swore she lost

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Speaker 1: forty pounds using whatever it was. I don't even remember

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Speaker 1: the name of it. And I took it into my

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Speaker 1: boss's off As I was holding I'm like, we're screwed

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Speaker 1: because this nune says this worked and she used it

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Speaker 1: for six months. And let me tell you something. You

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Speaker 1: put this Nune up on that on that witness stand.

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Speaker 1: It's over. Okay, we gotta rethink this whole thing. You're

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Speaker 1: telling me. You're sitting there with an X nun and

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Speaker 1: what happened. Well, she was a disbeliever and everything too.

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Speaker 1: So we got we uh after Joe, after the episode,

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Speaker 1: we got rid of Joanne And did you believe this stuff?

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Speaker 1: I said, no, she must have done something to us.

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Speaker 1: So we decided to meet that night. Her husband worked late.

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Speaker 1: She was out of the convent now like ten years

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Speaker 1: and had been in the comment for about ten years,

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Speaker 1: and we started doing what the books we're talking about.

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Speaker 1: We would practice. Uh. So that's how it began. And

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Speaker 1: then at work I couldn't think. Uh. I just wanted

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Speaker 1: to see if it worked. And I was in PR

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Speaker 1: and advertising, so I could bring clients too high at

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Speaker 1: hotel and show them in case they wanted to rent

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Speaker 1: a lecture hall or something, and I would rush them

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Speaker 1: to lunch and say, look, I really don't believe in this,

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Speaker 1: but I'm read if you hold a person's rings or

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Speaker 1: watch and you put it to your forehead, you can,

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Speaker 1: And so I'd be grabbing their watch to ring off

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Speaker 1: to practice on people. I didn't know, and uh, it

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Speaker 1: was working. Of course I got fired, I think not

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Speaker 1: a very good psyche got three months later. Uh, and

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Speaker 1: so that's when I went full time, dressed like a

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Speaker 1: gypsy and and started in the nightclub. I was still

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Speaker 1: trying to prove, uh that this really was real. And

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Speaker 1: then science got involved Duke University, a lot of testing

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Speaker 1: at Rhyan Research, and I still love testing my mind

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Speaker 1: of what it can do. And I do still a

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Speaker 1: lot of work and I'm working a lot now in

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Speaker 1: South Africa. Okay, I'm just taking all of this in.

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Speaker 1: Gil St John also with me, in addition to Alison

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Speaker 1: Dubois and Mareene were near gil St. John. You and

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Speaker 1: I've spoken many many times, although guys on professional level,

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Speaker 1: I have not consulted with girl St John. Okay, I'm

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Speaker 1: still clinging to the fact that this may not exist,

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Speaker 1: even though I know that it has actually happened. Gil

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Speaker 1: St John. I want to hear your first so called

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Speaker 1: I don't know what else to call it, unless you, ladies,

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Speaker 1: can enlighten me psychic experience. Um well, I vividly remember

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Speaker 1: I was about four years old. Um, my mother was

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Speaker 1: outside talking to the neighbor. Even we're talking about the

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Speaker 1: nineteen sixties, so you can kind of picture how that is.

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Speaker 1: I'm two houses down playing with the other little girl.

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Speaker 1: We're used to having a great time, like you know,

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Speaker 1: real little kids are doing and and watching our mom's talk.

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Speaker 1: And and I look up at her house and it

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Speaker 1: was on fire. And I'm at an age where, you know,

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Speaker 1: comprehension isn't the greatest. But I so I looked down.

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Speaker 1: I look up again, and the house is on fire.

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Speaker 1: Now at this point, I'm scared. I'm running home. If

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Speaker 1: I'm running back, you know, just quickly, I glanced again.

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Speaker 1: The house is not on fire, and I'm running up

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Speaker 1: to my mom and I'm yelling, mom, Mom, Mom, and

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Speaker 1: she's trying to, you know, keep me quiet for a minute.

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Speaker 1: And she shuffled me into the house. I think she

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Speaker 1: said something neighbor. I think she got hurt. And we

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Speaker 1: get into the house and she said, what what what

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Speaker 1: are you hiring about? Fire? I said, I saw the

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Speaker 1: house on fire. I saw the neighbor's house on fire.

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Speaker 1: She said, it's not on fire, and I insisted, I said,

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Speaker 1: I saw it, but I know it's gone now. She said,

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Speaker 1: you like, what exactly did you see? And I said,

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Speaker 1: it was burning, there was smoke, I saw people there,

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Speaker 1: and then I said, then it was all gone. She said, um,

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Speaker 1: she said, you know you need to not say these things.

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Speaker 1: M I'm like, I mean to me, I can't say

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Speaker 1: these things. And my grandmother came out of the other room.

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Speaker 1: She goes, ye, we don't talk about this. This has

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Speaker 1: been in our family. We don't you don't say these things.

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Speaker 1: I was so confused at that point I let it go.

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00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:50,119
Speaker 1: Three days later their house burned down. And then that

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00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:53,880
Speaker 1: left me with the strangest of feelings that at such

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Speaker 1: a young age, of like what if, what if they?

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Speaker 1: What if somebody would have and and thank goodness, nobody

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00:21:59,119 --> 00:22:02,080
Speaker 1: got hirt hurt in the fire and they all got out,

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00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:06,280
Speaker 1: But what if what if somebody had gotten hurt? And

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00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:09,600
Speaker 1: I would have been responsible because I knew I could

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00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:12,800
Speaker 1: have warned them. And I lived with a guilt for

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00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:17,960
Speaker 1: quite some time and trying to deal with visibility and

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00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:23,800
Speaker 1: where's that line with me? Naren Ranier, Gil Saint John

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Speaker 1: Alison Dubois, Joseph's Got Morgan death investigator and professor of

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Speaker 1: forensics at Jacksonville State University. My buddy Alan Deep joining

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Speaker 1: me from l A and Jackie Howard here in the studio.

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00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:41,000
Speaker 1: I want to thank our partner making today's program about

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Speaker 1: that is not gonna happen, Okay, I know that. You know.

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00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:00,320
Speaker 1: I get up between five o'clock and six a clock

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00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:04,080
Speaker 1: every morning. I still can't get everything done. Fatigue gets

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00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:07,680
Speaker 1: in the way, even sometimes for everyday activities. And you

382
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Speaker 1: know it's true. It gets worse every year. I see

383
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Speaker 1: my teen year olds running around and it takes all

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Speaker 1: I can do to keep up with him. And this

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Speaker 1: is why when you're twenty, your body has a natural

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Speaker 1: ability to maintain healthy circulation, but that ability decreases by

387
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Speaker 1: half by the time you're forty. You feel tired. I

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Speaker 1: know I do. So what can you do to increase

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00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:26,080
Speaker 1: dot Com Today, super Beats thank you for being our partner.

403
00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:32,720
Speaker 1: Today we are speaking with three renowned so called psychic detectives,

404
00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:37,080
Speaker 1: Noreen Ranier, Gail say John Allison at Dubois with me,

405
00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:40,520
Speaker 1: death investigator Joe Scott Morgan, Alan Duke and Jackie Howard.

406
00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:45,320
Speaker 1: I want to go to Noreene Ranier. Noreen, do do

407
00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:49,920
Speaker 1: you recall a particular case that you worked on. This

408
00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:55,360
Speaker 1: case dealt with a victim that is last named Sullivan

409
00:24:56,000 --> 00:25:01,960
Speaker 1: that was ultimately discovered dead. Um It was a missing

410
00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:08,400
Speaker 1: person case and an agent with the Montana Department of Justice,

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00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:13,800
Speaker 1: the d o J contacted you in way back after

412
00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:17,520
Speaker 1: watching you on television, he was skeptical. He says, he

413
00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:20,200
Speaker 1: met you, flew to Florida to meet you to see

414
00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:24,320
Speaker 1: if you were the real deal. He says he gave

415
00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:27,920
Speaker 1: you no information about the unsolved case and wanted to

416
00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:32,639
Speaker 1: find out if you could possibly help find a Montana

417
00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:38,880
Speaker 1: State auditor Walter Sullivan. Noreene, do you recall the Sullivan

418
00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:43,440
Speaker 1: case out of Montana? Oh, yes, it is what happened.

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00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:48,880
Speaker 1: I got a phone call from them. They had detective

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00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:52,240
Speaker 1: uber Ubi. I had seen me on television, and I

421
00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:54,720
Speaker 1: want to know how I worked, UH, And I po

422
00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:56,639
Speaker 1: him that used the police because I worked all of

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Speaker 1: the United States. Would send me something off the victim

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00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:02,840
Speaker 1: that wouldn't interrupt their crime, like a shoe or belt

425
00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:06,119
Speaker 1: buckle or uh something, And they didn't want to send

426
00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:10,000
Speaker 1: the evidence they had, so they flew out. And usually

427
00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:12,600
Speaker 1: I do things over the phone, so I was surprised

428
00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:16,680
Speaker 1: to see them with the camera, UH, and they videotaped

429
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:20,440
Speaker 1: uh the session and they would give me no feedback

430
00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:22,960
Speaker 1: usually on the phone. I just asked if it's a

431
00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:25,399
Speaker 1: homicide or a missing person case. I don't ask for

432
00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:28,280
Speaker 1: their name because the skeptics always say that we look

433
00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:30,480
Speaker 1: it up and we know everything about the person. So

434
00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:33,399
Speaker 1: I never know the name of the victim until I

435
00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:35,760
Speaker 1: start the case. So they told me they named the victim,

436
00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:37,960
Speaker 1: and I described him to make sure I was tuned in.

437
00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:40,760
Speaker 1: Uh I forgot. I think I was holding something of

438
00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:43,520
Speaker 1: the victims. UH did a bunch on him. And they

439
00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:46,320
Speaker 1: were very bad at giving me feedback. And usually I

440
00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:49,159
Speaker 1: just like to know if I'm in the right zone. Uh,

441
00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:51,639
Speaker 1: you know, did he have you know the ball here? However,

442
00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:54,480
Speaker 1: I described him, but they have no feedback whatsoever. And

443
00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:58,000
Speaker 1: then they gave me U the projectile the bullets that

444
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:01,760
Speaker 1: uh he had been shot with, and then I got

445
00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:05,359
Speaker 1: all sorts of new pictures. I saw three men, uh

446
00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:08,320
Speaker 1: they and I remember my head hurting terribly. I was

447
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:11,680
Speaker 1: outside of a blue building walking towards it when these

448
00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:14,280
Speaker 1: men jumped me and they started hitting me, and the

449
00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:19,200
Speaker 1: one in the head hurt me the most. Uh described.

450
00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:21,280
Speaker 1: There was two Mexicans and then the third man. We

451
00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:23,760
Speaker 1: just have an artist. I always worked with an artist

452
00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:27,080
Speaker 1: when we have homicide cases, so it helps the police

453
00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:30,440
Speaker 1: with the elimination of suspects. For the artist was drawing

454
00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:34,200
Speaker 1: the faces. I was seen off but I remember my

455
00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:37,280
Speaker 1: head hurting so badly. Even after I came out of

456
00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:41,560
Speaker 1: my tramps, I was still hurting. Uh. After describing the

457
00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:46,159
Speaker 1: three men, the two Mexicans and the one other older man, Uh,

458
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:49,160
Speaker 1: they just started asking me questions, and then I would

459
00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:52,000
Speaker 1: respond to the questions how he was killed? Uh, you

460
00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:53,720
Speaker 1: know why I was killed. I saw a lot of

461
00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:59,119
Speaker 1: numbers around uh the victim, and he turned out that

462
00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:02,760
Speaker 1: he was into finance a great deal. Uh. I don't

463
00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:06,119
Speaker 1: remember everything, but they were just very pleased with what

464
00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:09,080
Speaker 1: I gave them. Uh. I forgot what else they wanted

465
00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:11,320
Speaker 1: to know. Oh, I had to draw things for them.

466
00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:13,000
Speaker 1: They they want to know what the gun looked like,

467
00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:15,439
Speaker 1: and I was trying to tell them that you had

468
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:18,480
Speaker 1: to use two hands on it, and they still couldn't understand.

469
00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:20,280
Speaker 1: So I got a piece of paper and a pen

470
00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:22,600
Speaker 1: and drew it. And it turned out it was like

471
00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:25,280
Speaker 1: a K nine. I still don't know guns, but it

472
00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:28,359
Speaker 1: drew it just like it it was. Uh. So they

473
00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:31,399
Speaker 1: were very happy with all the evidence. I mean, I

474
00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:33,760
Speaker 1: did a lot more, but I can't remember everything, and

475
00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:38,000
Speaker 1: I don't feel that I ever solved crimes. I think

476
00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:41,680
Speaker 1: that I'm like, uh giving them more I'm a tool

477
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:43,600
Speaker 1: and if they know how to use me, right, and

478
00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:46,120
Speaker 1: a lot of police don't. Uh, if they know how

479
00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:48,840
Speaker 1: to use me, and I try to write how how

480
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:51,840
Speaker 1: best I work, I'm just a tool for them to

481
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:56,560
Speaker 1: get more evidence, and that's what they bring to court. Wow.

482
00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:02,880
Speaker 1: Back to our skeptic, Joseph Scott Morgan, homicide investigator and

483
00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:07,040
Speaker 1: professor forensics at Jacksonville State University. Okay, Joe Scott, did

484
00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:10,160
Speaker 1: you hear that? Oh yeah, I heard it. Nancy heard

485
00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:12,600
Speaker 1: it loud and clear, and uh, for all I know,

486
00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:15,680
Speaker 1: it could just be a random shot in the dark. Uh.

487
00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:17,880
Speaker 1: So you're gonna have to prove it to me. And

488
00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:20,400
Speaker 1: I'm not buying it. I'm not. There's too much. There's

489
00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:24,000
Speaker 1: too much at risk here. There's too much, Joe Scott,

490
00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:26,120
Speaker 1: hold on, you know what. That's what they said the

491
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:28,840
Speaker 1: first time somebody brought up the idea of fingerprints. I'll

492
00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:31,680
Speaker 1: look to chew on that for a few moments. Alison

493
00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:36,120
Speaker 1: Dubois gil st John Noreen Nier with us. Alison Dubois,

494
00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:43,040
Speaker 1: you also have worked on particular criminal cases. Let's talk

495
00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:49,320
Speaker 1: about Jackie Hartman. And remember everybody, Alison Dubois actually worked

496
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:54,240
Speaker 1: at the Mirracopa County District Attorney's Office in Arizona. In fact,

497
00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:58,520
Speaker 1: one of her task was organizing crime scene photos. UM

498
00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:03,320
Speaker 1: I wanted to to you about a particular case, Jackie Hartman,

499
00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:08,400
Speaker 1: a nineteen year old. What do you recall about that case,

500
00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:13,000
Speaker 1: Alison du Bois, Well, I was taken to the last

501
00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:14,920
Speaker 1: place she was seeing, which was kind of like a

502
00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:18,720
Speaker 1: gas station convenience store, and the first thing that I

503
00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:22,880
Speaker 1: picked up was that she went willingly. So then the

504
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:25,880
Speaker 1: next piece of information that I wrote down was date

505
00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:28,880
Speaker 1: rate gone wrong. She'd been missing about two weeks. At

506
00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:32,200
Speaker 1: this point, I said, you can you can hear helicopters

507
00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:34,440
Speaker 1: overhead where her body is, so they're looking in the

508
00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:38,320
Speaker 1: right area. UM, I said, there's a small barbecue nearby

509
00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:41,160
Speaker 1: where you have like a cook out. Her body was

510
00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:44,360
Speaker 1: rolled down a hill outside the city limits. I said

511
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:46,920
Speaker 1: the cell phone tower would be how they find her

512
00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:49,000
Speaker 1: and I and then I let them know that they

513
00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:51,520
Speaker 1: would find her body in two weeks, which they did

514
00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:55,760
Speaker 1: find her body in exactly two weeks. Alison du Bois

515
00:30:55,960 --> 00:31:00,480
Speaker 1: is referring to the case of Jackie Hartman and nineteen

516
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:05,880
Speaker 1: year old nursing student. Jackie's body was found in two

517
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:12,240
Speaker 1: thousand seven, within hours of the time du Bois said

518
00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:16,880
Speaker 1: it would be found. Jackie Hartman's date on the night

519
00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:24,000
Speaker 1: of her disappearance was ultimately convicted of killing the young girl,

520
00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:30,800
Speaker 1: Jackie Hartman, nineteen year old nursing student. Now very interesting

521
00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:35,600
Speaker 1: that she tells police that this was that the victim,

522
00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:39,440
Speaker 1: Jackie went with her killer willingly that it was a

523
00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:44,000
Speaker 1: date rape to find the victim through cell phone records,

524
00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:49,600
Speaker 1: specifically that she would be found in two weeks. She

525
00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:55,240
Speaker 1: was found thirteen days and twenty something hours from the

526
00:31:55,360 --> 00:32:01,160
Speaker 1: day the moment that Allison spoke with police. I mean,

527
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:07,400
Speaker 1: it just goes on and on and on. Now it's

528
00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:12,600
Speaker 1: what do you have to say to your critics, Alison? Um,

529
00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:15,720
Speaker 1: you know, I half of my friends are cops and

530
00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:21,280
Speaker 1: the county attorneys prosecutors. So, um, I'm critical of myself.

531
00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:24,400
Speaker 1: So I know what information they need that can actually

532
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:27,880
Speaker 1: be helpful and what's just fluff. You know that some

533
00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:31,320
Speaker 1: psychics give and they get pulled into the emotional state

534
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:33,800
Speaker 1: of the victim. I try to go through the killer

535
00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:38,080
Speaker 1: myself instead of the victim. But for people who don't

536
00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:41,239
Speaker 1: believe it's not it really doesn't change my life if

537
00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:43,680
Speaker 1: they don't believe, you know, I mean, at the end

538
00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:45,880
Speaker 1: of the day, we all die, and everybody finds out

539
00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:48,400
Speaker 1: that there's life after death and that you know, what

540
00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:51,600
Speaker 1: we're doing to help to help the police when they

541
00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:54,680
Speaker 1: hit a wall. We're just a last resort. We don't

542
00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:58,160
Speaker 1: want to be their first choice of weapon. It's a

543
00:32:58,200 --> 00:32:59,800
Speaker 1: lot of work for us, and it takes in a

544
00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:02,920
Speaker 1: otional toll on us. I've never charged to work a

545
00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:05,440
Speaker 1: case because I've been so blessed in life. It's just

546
00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:08,560
Speaker 1: kind of how I've given back. But that's just personally

547
00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:11,560
Speaker 1: how I how I've approached it. So, you know, as

548
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:14,400
Speaker 1: far as working cases, there was no monetary gain. And

549
00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:17,240
Speaker 1: I guess one could say, well, you got a television

550
00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:20,080
Speaker 1: show about it about you because of it and you

551
00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:23,080
Speaker 1: did well, and I would argue that, well, then you're

552
00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:25,440
Speaker 1: just proving that I'm a psychic, because then I knew

553
00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:29,160
Speaker 1: I was going to become rich off of working cases,

554
00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:31,720
Speaker 1: you know. So they can't have it both ways, and

555
00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:35,800
Speaker 1: usually skeptics like to argue it so that no matter

556
00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:37,880
Speaker 1: what we say or what we do, it's never going

557
00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:41,400
Speaker 1: to be enough evidence or or impressive enough. And so

558
00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:44,560
Speaker 1: for those people. I don't really, I don't bother. You know.

559
00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:48,600
Speaker 1: Many people say that Murder made Alison Dubois famous. Their

560
00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:54,240
Speaker 1: well known series Medium with story Patricia Arquette, playing a

561
00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:58,480
Speaker 1: fictional du Bois Well, Patricia Arkett solved a murder a

562
00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:01,760
Speaker 1: week for seven seasons. Okay, I don't think that your

563
00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:06,040
Speaker 1: your work is any of your work is uh that regular? Uh?

564
00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:08,000
Speaker 1: And I don't. I don't know if you ever saw

565
00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:12,880
Speaker 1: a dime off that. Because TV series can, people can

566
00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:17,360
Speaker 1: use your likeness or you're the idea of you. Believe me,

567
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:21,600
Speaker 1: I know, and uh, I never know about it until

568
00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:23,480
Speaker 1: tis somebody tells me about it that they've seen it

569
00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:26,520
Speaker 1: on TV. Nancy, I've got a clip I can play

570
00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:29,440
Speaker 1: from the television show The Medium. In fact, this is

571
00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:33,440
Speaker 1: from the premier episode. We just got a call. Apparently

572
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:37,799
Speaker 1: he's struck again. He takes their hearts, carves it right

573
00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:41,440
Speaker 1: out of their chest. There's never anything to do with six.

574
00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:45,680
Speaker 1: It's biblical. All I know is that they called an

575
00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:48,520
Speaker 1: ambulance from Mr Push sometime after three this morning. You

576
00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:51,120
Speaker 1: came to visit me in my bedroom. It was around

577
00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:52,600
Speaker 1: three thirty in the morning. I thought that I was

578
00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:57,040
Speaker 1: dreaming they're related. You must have died for a minute

579
00:34:57,120 --> 00:35:01,480
Speaker 1: or two. The murders of victims, the ones that chooses

580
00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:06,280
Speaker 1: it's not random. I'm going now to gil St John.

581
00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:10,120
Speaker 1: Gil St John a renowned psychic as well, along with

582
00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:14,160
Speaker 1: Narine Ranair and Alice and Duba. Hold on, Joe Scott Morgan,

583
00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:17,719
Speaker 1: you're chopping at the bit all right way in, Joe Scott,

584
00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:20,440
Speaker 1: try not to be so negative because I'm getting some

585
00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:23,040
Speaker 1: kind of a I'm getting a vibration I think from you.

586
00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:26,160
Speaker 1: It's not a good one. Oh wow, are you Are

587
00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:28,400
Speaker 1: you having a vision right now? Nancy? Is that? Is

588
00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:32,560
Speaker 1: that what's going on? My vibes are traveling your way? Yeah?

589
00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:34,840
Speaker 1: I got I gotta tell you. You know you mentioned

590
00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:38,080
Speaker 1: fingerprints a moment ago. Uh as somebody said, hey, you know,

591
00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:40,840
Speaker 1: you know we we can't use these. You're right, you

592
00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:44,640
Speaker 1: can't use them because it can't be quantified and it

593
00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:46,800
Speaker 1: can't be proved. You have to be able to replicate

594
00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:49,840
Speaker 1: this over and over and over using the same test.

595
00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:52,840
Speaker 1: And that's how we validate things in forensic science and

596
00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:56,080
Speaker 1: in science in general. You know that as a former prosecutor,

597
00:35:56,520 --> 00:35:59,239
Speaker 1: As a former prosecutor, I know what I need to

598
00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:02,320
Speaker 1: do to prove a case. But my mind is open.

599
00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:07,440
Speaker 1: I firmly believe that there is a lot more in

600
00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:10,839
Speaker 1: the world of criminal investigation than I know, A lot

601
00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:13,880
Speaker 1: more in the world than I know. In fact, what

602
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:16,600
Speaker 1: I don't know could fill up a million libraries compared

603
00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:20,200
Speaker 1: to what I do know about this world. I'm pretty sure.

604
00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:24,000
Speaker 1: Now I want to speak with gil St John, who

605
00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:28,239
Speaker 1: is a renowned psychic, and she was actually drawn to

606
00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:33,120
Speaker 1: the spot where little Kelly Anthony's body was found months

607
00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:37,000
Speaker 1: before the body was found, and even has video to

608
00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:39,680
Speaker 1: prove it. She came forward to say she was not

609
00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:42,720
Speaker 1: surprised Kelly was found in the woods off Suburban Drive,

610
00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:45,520
Speaker 1: that she had been in that area and drawn to

611
00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:51,120
Speaker 1: that area months before. Um gil St John and her

612
00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:54,719
Speaker 1: search team is so called the body hunters, went to

613
00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:57,640
Speaker 1: Orlando to search for Kelly, and on the very first

614
00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:01,720
Speaker 1: day out of nowhere, she LAIDs them on a blind

615
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:09,320
Speaker 1: drive to this spot. Okay, gil St John, can you

616
00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:12,759
Speaker 1: even explain what's going on in your mind when you

617
00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:17,520
Speaker 1: have this sort of experience? You know, I'm not sure

618
00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:20,279
Speaker 1: that there's anything in the sense that you could say

619
00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:24,479
Speaker 1: is is totally going on, except for it's almost you're

620
00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:30,240
Speaker 1: sort of trance like semi trance. You're hearing, you're feeling

621
00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:34,560
Speaker 1: um things from the other side as well as you're Obviously,

622
00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:36,920
Speaker 1: if you're driving, you have to be very conscious and

623
00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:40,399
Speaker 1: aware of your driving. UM. But it's something I've always done,

624
00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:43,759
Speaker 1: is that blind drive. I get to an area and

625
00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:47,239
Speaker 1: I go to where the person was last seen, and

626
00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:52,480
Speaker 1: then I pick up on what happened. How do I

627
00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:56,840
Speaker 1: get to their body? And I just allow myself to

628
00:37:57,320 --> 00:38:01,600
Speaker 1: drive where the feeling gets strong. If you've ever played

629
00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:04,160
Speaker 1: that Hot and Cold game when you were a kid, Yes,

630
00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:08,160
Speaker 1: that's what it feels like. I'm going left and left. Nope, Nope,

631
00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:10,120
Speaker 1: not losing the feeling. Loving the feeling. Go to the

632
00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:13,000
Speaker 1: other direction, yep, yep, it's getting stronger going this way,

633
00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:17,120
Speaker 1: and you you follow. What can you tell me about

634
00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:26,200
Speaker 1: Stephen Stephen Hoff was a person that they suspected he

635
00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:32,160
Speaker 1: had left suicide and had left a note they had

636
00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:36,200
Speaker 1: He had searchers out several times looking for him. UM.

637
00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:42,000
Speaker 1: He'd been missing around eight weeks at the time that

638
00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:47,040
Speaker 1: our team was called out. Now, this was a team case,

639
00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:52,279
Speaker 1: so you have to tread lightly on this because you're

640
00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:57,360
Speaker 1: going out as a canine handler called out by police.

641
00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:03,480
Speaker 1: Sort of a conflict of interest with the two. They

642
00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:06,080
Speaker 1: don't they're there, don't see the psychic, and they don't

643
00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:08,880
Speaker 1: know that I'm psychic. They don't have any information this.

644
00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:13,560
Speaker 1: They're calling us out to do a search. They don't

645
00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:15,200
Speaker 1: even know if he's in this area, and it's a

646
00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:21,480
Speaker 1: very large preserve area. And we get out there. On

647
00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:28,320
Speaker 1: that case, I run my canine. I got some information

648
00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:30,960
Speaker 1: off of my canine. If people don't understand, there's a

649
00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:32,799
Speaker 1: lot to run a canine, you just don't turn your

650
00:39:32,840 --> 00:39:35,640
Speaker 1: dog loose and go hey, yeah, um, you got to

651
00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:39,439
Speaker 1: understand scent theory and how it all works. He gave

652
00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:42,239
Speaker 1: me some signs in an area that I was told

653
00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:46,240
Speaker 1: to go over into, and I had two other backup

654
00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:51,200
Speaker 1: handlers with me, and uh, he kind of told me

655
00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:55,520
Speaker 1: a story in what he was doing, but my feelings

656
00:39:56,040 --> 00:40:01,680
Speaker 1: were over writing some of this. Now by this time,

657
00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:04,760
Speaker 1: the park is getting very busy with people walking on trails.

658
00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:08,439
Speaker 1: I'm thinking, okay, let's think about logics here. I'm gonna

659
00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:11,960
Speaker 1: turn a canine loose. We've got people walking in in

660
00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:16,799
Speaker 1: this area over here, and they're walking dogs. It's gonna

661
00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:20,480
Speaker 1: be a problem. It's gonna be a problem. So what

662
00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:24,320
Speaker 1: finally happened. I turned and looked at the two girls

663
00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:26,600
Speaker 1: with me, and they sort of kind of knew that

664
00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:28,919
Speaker 1: I did some psychic stuff. But listen, we're all about

665
00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:32,239
Speaker 1: canines right there. You know that that's that's the bottom line.

666
00:40:33,120 --> 00:40:35,600
Speaker 1: So and I said, I'm gonna put my dog up.

667
00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:38,440
Speaker 1: And I said what I said, yea, I'm gonna put

668
00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:40,040
Speaker 1: my dog off. I want to walk around on foot

669
00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:44,640
Speaker 1: over here. Okay, So we looked put the canine up

670
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:49,879
Speaker 1: and walking around, and I knew, you know, I said,

671
00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:53,640
Speaker 1: I'm gonna turn this on. This has gotta happen. I gotta,

672
00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:56,320
Speaker 1: you know, nip this in the bud right now. We

673
00:40:56,440 --> 00:41:00,319
Speaker 1: gotta find this guy. I just turned it on. I said,

674
00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:01,880
Speaker 1: I don't know what to do. You know, I'm not

675
00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:05,080
Speaker 1: even gonna say anything to my my backup handlers. I

676
00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:09,280
Speaker 1: just turned it on. I went with my feelings, began walking,

677
00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:13,280
Speaker 1: going in different places, and they're running behind me, going, Gail,

678
00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:15,719
Speaker 1: what's going on? What's going what are you doing? What?

679
00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:20,359
Speaker 1: Slow down? I couldn't. I couldn't slow down by that point,

680
00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:24,560
Speaker 1: it was so strong the pole. I just went and

681
00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:29,040
Speaker 1: kept walking. I can't hold back what happened. I walked

682
00:41:29,120 --> 00:41:36,640
Speaker 1: right up on his body, walked right up on him. Okay, guys, Narine,

683
00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:42,520
Speaker 1: when there Gail Saint John Allison du Bois, Alison Dubois, Um,

684
00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:45,760
Speaker 1: could you tell me? You teld me your first experience,

685
00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:50,520
Speaker 1: but what was your most powerful psychic experience? Um? I

686
00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:53,800
Speaker 1: heard a voice say, your dad's gonna die at sixty

687
00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:56,920
Speaker 1: seven of a massive heart attack. So I sent my

688
00:41:57,040 --> 00:42:02,600
Speaker 1: dad's all the heart specialists trying to intervene and save him.

689
00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:07,120
Speaker 1: And he had been a professional ballroom dancer for fifty years.

690
00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:09,960
Speaker 1: He was in good shape, and he died at sixties

691
00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:13,160
Speaker 1: seven of a massive heart attack. And uh, I think

692
00:42:13,239 --> 00:42:15,360
Speaker 1: that one was probably the most profound because it was

693
00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:20,279
Speaker 1: my father. You're really hitting a nerve. Lost my dad

694
00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:25,959
Speaker 1: two years ago, and I just miss him so much.

695
00:42:26,280 --> 00:42:31,279
Speaker 1: It's just he was my my soul mate. I miss

696
00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:34,680
Speaker 1: him so much, and I can only imagine what that

697
00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:39,960
Speaker 1: must have been like, Narraine, Go go ahead, Allison, But

698
00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:41,879
Speaker 1: I was just gonna say. I was just gonna say,

699
00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:45,719
Speaker 1: it's an indescribable ache that never goes away, no matter

700
00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:48,040
Speaker 1: how many years passed, even though you know they're there

701
00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:50,160
Speaker 1: and you know that every day wake up a good

702
00:42:50,239 --> 00:42:52,400
Speaker 1: day because you're a day closer to seeing them again.

703
00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:56,560
Speaker 1: All of that aside, it's still aches. I'm sorry that

704
00:42:56,640 --> 00:42:58,960
Speaker 1: you lost your dad. I am thanks. I still have

705
00:42:59,080 --> 00:43:03,520
Speaker 1: my mom, and you know she's ninety pounds a tiger made.

706
00:43:05,880 --> 00:43:11,160
Speaker 1: What was your most powerful psychic experience? Uh? Mine was,

707
00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:14,480
Speaker 1: of course my police work. For the first five years,

708
00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:17,360
Speaker 1: all I did was homicide because I'm really bad with

709
00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:20,440
Speaker 1: left and right and I can get lost in a kmart,

710
00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:24,520
Speaker 1: so I never tried to find people. I just told

711
00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:29,040
Speaker 1: everybody I'm homicide. A little uh FBI agents life that

712
00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:32,080
Speaker 1: knew about my work contact me, and her brother was

713
00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:35,640
Speaker 1: missing in an airplane. UH. And at first to take

714
00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:37,359
Speaker 1: morant to do it, I can't, saying no, I don't

715
00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:40,080
Speaker 1: do that. And then finally she brought me some um

716
00:43:41,280 --> 00:43:44,120
Speaker 1: stuff that he had touched, a wallet and a coin thing,

717
00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:47,439
Speaker 1: and I did the case, and I gave launch stude

718
00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:50,960
Speaker 1: and latitude UH and the initials of the cities UH.

719
00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:54,480
Speaker 1: And they found in the plane that it hadn't it

720
00:43:54,600 --> 00:43:56,560
Speaker 1: was in a plane, of course, and hadn't exploded. And

721
00:43:56,800 --> 00:44:01,560
Speaker 1: I remember visually seeing somebody caring something in places under

722
00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:04,960
Speaker 1: a tree uh, and then walking away. And then I

723
00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:07,080
Speaker 1: opened my eyes and said, no, you just want him

724
00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:09,160
Speaker 1: to be alive, but I'm not doing this anymore. And

725
00:44:09,239 --> 00:44:11,319
Speaker 1: when they found the airplane, the it was they had

726
00:44:11,360 --> 00:44:14,160
Speaker 1: this woman sitting under a tree like somebody had carried

727
00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:17,040
Speaker 1: her there, and her brother had walked several yards away.

728
00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:19,719
Speaker 1: But that was my most because I've never had been

729
00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:22,680
Speaker 1: into missing people and it was a whole whole new

730
00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:26,600
Speaker 1: and I'm really good at it now. Gil Saint John,

731
00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:31,279
Speaker 1: you told me how you initially realized that you had

732
00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:36,920
Speaker 1: this extrasensory perception. What was your most profound, your most powerful,

733
00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:41,520
Speaker 1: I guess psychic experience or vision. I really got to say.

734
00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:47,000
Speaker 1: It concerned my grandmother UM. She was living with us

735
00:44:47,320 --> 00:44:52,960
Speaker 1: at the time and UM two days prior to her passing.

736
00:44:54,120 --> 00:44:58,000
Speaker 1: UM I was told about it, and it was a

737
00:44:58,080 --> 00:45:01,640
Speaker 1: semi dream state, but it was very conscious of what

738
00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:06,640
Speaker 1: was going on. And UM, I think because at the

739
00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:09,319
Speaker 1: time I was I was fourteen years old, I really

740
00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:14,239
Speaker 1: fought it and it was painful and I and I

741
00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:17,200
Speaker 1: didn't and I wanted to ignore it. And and two

742
00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:24,640
Speaker 1: days later I held it and she passed away. And

743
00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:30,200
Speaker 1: that very very powerful and painful and and so many

744
00:45:30,320 --> 00:45:33,920
Speaker 1: things all at the same time with me, renowned psychics,

745
00:45:34,200 --> 00:45:38,880
Speaker 1: so called psychic detectives, Mareena Ronair, Gail sat John, Alison

746
00:45:39,080 --> 00:45:46,080
Speaker 1: du Bois, and skeptic Joseph Scott Morgan. Ladies, thank you

747
00:45:46,200 --> 00:45:49,040
Speaker 1: for sharing with us. You know, Joe Scott, I guess

748
00:45:49,080 --> 00:45:53,120
Speaker 1: you and I the two flat feet here will continue

749
00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:58,960
Speaker 1: putting forward hard evidence, as we call it, but it's

750
00:45:59,080 --> 00:46:03,880
Speaker 1: very hard to put onlinders and try to ignore the

751
00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:09,600
Speaker 1: stories that have been factually corroborated from Alison du Bois,

752
00:46:10,160 --> 00:46:15,960
Speaker 1: Gail st John, and Narene Na. Nancy Grace Crime Stories

753
00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:22,000
Speaker 1: signing off goodbye friend. As Crime Stories with Nancy Grace begins,

754
00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:25,600
Speaker 1: we would like to thank you for helping us grow

755
00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:29,600
Speaker 1: from our first podcast barely a year ago to now

756
00:46:29,840 --> 00:46:34,160
Speaker 1: being a national radio show heard on Sirius XM Channel two,

757
00:46:34,719 --> 00:46:37,960
Speaker 1: and we are also one of the top rated news podcast.

758
00:46:38,760 --> 00:46:42,200
Speaker 1: Every weekday we publish a new episode in addition to

759
00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:46,160
Speaker 1: our Sirius XM broadcast several times each day. You can

760
00:46:46,320 --> 00:46:50,640
Speaker 1: also download Crime Stories as a podcast and listen anytime.

761
00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:54,680
Speaker 1: Subscribe through iTunes, Google Play, or a number of other

762
00:46:54,800 --> 00:46:59,920
Speaker 1: podcasts downloading websites, and follow Nancy on Facebook and Instagram

763
00:47:00,200 --> 00:47:03,360
Speaker 1: for the latest updates. And I hope by now you

764
00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:08,319
Speaker 1: know about crime online dot com. That's Nancy's comprehensive crime

765
00:47:08,400 --> 00:47:13,960
Speaker 1: news website. That's Crime online dot com book market for

766
00:47:14,280 --> 00:47:17,320
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace. I'm Alan Duke, wishing you a happy and

767
00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:19,120
Speaker 1: prosperous eighteen