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Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast am on

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Speaker 1: iHeart Radio. As it says on the jacket in the

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Speaker 1: promotional material for Rick Prado's book Black Ops, a harrowing

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Speaker 1: memoir of life in the shadowy world of assassins, terrorists,

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Speaker 1: spies and revolutionaries. Um. So, before we get back into

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Speaker 1: more serious stupid question, do you enjoy watching espionage media?

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Speaker 1: You know, reading books, listening to podcasts, watching TV. I

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Speaker 1: have a very low tolerance for what I'm watching. Um.

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Speaker 1: And to tell you the truth, you mentioned the Bond

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Speaker 1: movies that you that you did, right, you watch sometimes

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Speaker 1: the beauty of that is that we know it's fantasy.

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Speaker 1: So you know, I'm my Austin Martin, right, So you

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Speaker 1: know we know that that is. And I will tell

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Speaker 1: you I think that the best promotional thing that the

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Speaker 1: Brits ever did was to create James Bond. But I

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Speaker 1: know that that's a fantasy. What bothers me is when

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Speaker 1: I see movies like Jason Bourne, for example, I always

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Speaker 1: portray in our individuals as fanatical assassins with seventeen personalities

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Speaker 1: doing something that Congress doesn't even know we're doing. Blah

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Speaker 1: blah blah, and so when movies take that direction, which

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Speaker 1: is too many of them, I go the other way.

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Speaker 1: There are a few out there, in a few movies

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Speaker 1: and a few programs that are tolerable, and we understand

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Speaker 1: there's got to be a little bit of Hollywood too

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Speaker 1: for to catch the everybody's attention. All right, name one, well,

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Speaker 1: I think movies wise, the best, one of the best

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Speaker 1: CIA movies is called Urgo Oh Yes, Our Goal. It

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Speaker 1: was a fantastic movie. It was a very true story.

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Speaker 1: It was we had some hostages. We had the hostages

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Speaker 1: in Iran, but we also had some who have been

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Speaker 1: able to escape to a safe house. And this operations

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Speaker 1: officer who was the fake IDAs and all that others

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Speaker 1: literally put this incredible operation together in Iran while everything

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Speaker 1: was going hot, and he got he got the people out.

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Speaker 1: So moviewise, that's that's one of the ones that I think.

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Speaker 1: It's a very strong one. Zero Dark thirty. Um, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's a pretty decent one. It is. It is, It

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Speaker 1: is well done, and of course a lot of it

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Speaker 1: is based on on Jennifer Matthews, who was a colleague

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Speaker 1: of mine in the Been Laden Task Force. She was

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Speaker 1: one of my analysts when we started the unit in

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Speaker 1: ninety six. Um, but there was also some real misguided

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Speaker 1: things in that movie and the one of the Father.

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Speaker 1: I think most of us the most was the fact

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Speaker 1: that how they portrayed what enhanced interrogations are like, you know,

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Speaker 1: and that that came out more of a you know

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Speaker 1: that there was I think it was grave or something

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Speaker 1: that were plain and in that place there were amateurs

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Speaker 1: that we're not supervised and things when really really stupid.

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Speaker 1: But the movie confuses that the average person looking at

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Speaker 1: the movie, so this is what they do and it

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Speaker 1: is not, you know, our waterboarding in the movies, there's

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Speaker 1: always a bucket of water over a rank over your

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Speaker 1: face and all that. Um, when are we did the waterboarding?

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Speaker 1: Like I said, I wasn't part of that. But what

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Speaker 1: the agency did for waterboarding comes out of the enhanced

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Speaker 1: interrogation training that we in the special military that you know,

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Speaker 1: that's where I started. UM goes unders here school and

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Speaker 1: it's literally on a gurney. The guy is monitored, they

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Speaker 1: have blood pressure cuffs on them, everything else, and there's

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Speaker 1: time limits of how long you could do it. It's

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Speaker 1: more of a tool to speed up the breakdown of

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Speaker 1: the individual because The real breakdown here is music going

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Speaker 1: twenty four and being you know, not let him not

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Speaker 1: let you sleep, sleek to privation. All these things are

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Speaker 1: the things that didn't wear people out, and the water

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Speaker 1: boarding is just the one extra little nudge to get

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Speaker 1: them to tell us what we need to do. You

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Speaker 1: know that there was a scene about waterboarding in a

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Speaker 1: movie called Safe House with Denzel Washington, right, And yeah,

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Speaker 1: Ryan Reynolds, what I like about that there was the

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Speaker 1: scene that I liked is he's going into the detail

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Speaker 1: of the the the cotton used in the towels because

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Speaker 1: because operationally he knew what would be more effective to

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Speaker 1: use on him, you know, because he'd done that to

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Speaker 1: other people, so he knew the right weight of the

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Speaker 1: towel to use. I thought that was there was that

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Speaker 1: little detail. I thought was that stuck with me. Thought

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Speaker 1: on that it's it's a good Hollywood angle. And obviously

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Speaker 1: he did his job. He got your attention and he

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Speaker 1: enjoyed it. But I get and tee you that in

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Speaker 1: no case officer ever will know I have ever met,

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Speaker 1: we'll know what sized towels we use, and if they do,

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Speaker 1: they fully would admit it anyway. So yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 1: other than the Bond movies, which is interesting to me

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Speaker 1: because I think Daniel Craig's Bond is the most seems

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Speaker 1: like the thing that's closest to the grittiness of what

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Speaker 1: a black Ops guy would be like. But I've just

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Speaker 1: put that off to the side for the moment. I

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Speaker 1: think Tinker Taylor Soldiers Spy, the Jean Lacaray book and

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Speaker 1: the movie based on that, what I really liked about it.

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Speaker 1: That does stress this whole bureaucracy of intelligence gathering and

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Speaker 1: all the multi and having to keep track of the

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Speaker 1: paperwork and the recordings and you know, the library of

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Speaker 1: information and all the forms you have to fill out.

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Speaker 1: And I think there are some aspects of that which

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Speaker 1: obviously don't necessarily add well to a Hollywood production, but

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Speaker 1: those are the reality of your life. Is there are

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Speaker 1: forms involved, right, I mean, you aren't just like sent off.

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Speaker 1: You You do have to write up operations reports, right,

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Speaker 1: and you have to sort of explain what happening. Yeah. Absolutely.

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Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, we get almost as much

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Speaker 1: training in writing and expressing ourselves succinctly because when we

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Speaker 1: write an intelligence report that your goal is for that

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Speaker 1: to hit Congress the following day if you're if you

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Speaker 1: if you score one of those. So when we write something,

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Speaker 1: it has to be succinct, and it has to be accurate,

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Speaker 1: and it has to be truthful. That's one of the

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Speaker 1: big things in the agency that again is never highlighted

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Speaker 1: in the media is the fact that our integrity. If

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Speaker 1: you want to get fired by the agency in an nanosecond,

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Speaker 1: steal a dollar from the agency or misinterpret and intelligence

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Speaker 1: to make us sound better than what it was, it

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Speaker 1: will get you fired and kicked out and your clearances revoked.

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Speaker 1: And you name it um and and as as well

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Speaker 1: as it should be. Yes, uh, well, then let me

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Speaker 1: amend this part of your biography. So rerec product spent

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Speaker 1: his first ten years of the CIA UM, but the

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Speaker 1: training includes airborne scuba, advanced combat medical rescue, seer, mountain climbing,

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Speaker 1: jungle survival, and writing really good reports. Exactly. Yeah. There's

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Speaker 1: a line in the Recruit with resisteresting where the somebody said, well,

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Speaker 1: how do I He's a new guy in the CIA

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Speaker 1: said how do I do that? And he said, fly coach, um,

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Speaker 1: get a like mid range rental car and save all

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Speaker 1: your receipts. We don't call it the company for nothing,

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Speaker 1: and I thought, okay, again, that seemed like a truthful

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Speaker 1: moment for at least for these types of movies. Well,

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Speaker 1: and there's some levity in that scene. I did watch

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Speaker 1: that first episode I movie, but I watch it, but

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Speaker 1: there's sir levity there. But it's true. I mean, our

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Speaker 1: accountings have to be very, very sharp, and I'll explain

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Speaker 1: why because we worked under what they call fenced funds.

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Speaker 1: The Congress approves, the Agency approves to each area division

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Speaker 1: what they can spend on what kind of programs. So

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Speaker 1: it is sacrif thanks for you to if you get

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Speaker 1: ten million dollars to work this particular account, just because

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Speaker 1: you've got a million dollars left over that account, you

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Speaker 1: just cannot take that money and say, well, I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: put that money over here, because a couple of September

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Speaker 1: will lose it. So that's for us. Accounting, both at

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Speaker 1: the micro and the macro level, are very very important

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Speaker 1: in the agency. Yeah, it's Look, you never saw James

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Speaker 1: Bond right at an after action report digit No. No,

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Speaker 1: I don't think even the books mentioned him having been

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Speaker 1: played up. Well, it's very funny, Rick proto. This is

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Speaker 1: so enjoyable. Thank you so much again for stepping in

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Speaker 1: the book. Is Black Opposites Gone very well? Are you

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Speaker 1: ready for this? Is it has already? Have this been

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Speaker 1: optioned for something that I'm going to be seeing on

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Speaker 1: Netflix coming up. We're actually working on pitching a with

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Speaker 1: putting together a proposal to the you know, the Netflix,

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Speaker 1: Amazon or whatever. But it's not going to be a documentary. Um,

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Speaker 1: They're going for more of a mini series and you know,

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Speaker 1: keeping as much truth about how the agency operates, and

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Speaker 1: you know, and and the reality of our work. And

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Speaker 1: you know from from reading the book, you know that

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Speaker 1: in our there's all kinds of sexy operations that we

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Speaker 1: describe there. Um, you know, they're just not the Hollywood

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Speaker 1: version of the things that we see. They're still dangerous.

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Speaker 1: We don't have one hundred and thirty nine stars in

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Speaker 1: our wall now because this is a hobby. You know,

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Speaker 1: there's people that have sacrificed their lives for all of this. So, um,

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Speaker 1: that is that is that that's very accurate, very accurate.

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Speaker 1: Have any of those star has ever come down? What

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Speaker 1: do you mean? Well, so reports are reports right, and

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Speaker 1: epochs of history have different sort of operational understandings. What's

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Speaker 1: that so? I want anybody's ever been reconsidered of Like, No,

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Speaker 1: that shouldn't be up there. No, I mean these are

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Speaker 1: all very clear cutcases. You know, the parameters are very

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Speaker 1: well delineated. You know, if you are in harm's way

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Speaker 1: in the agency carrying out a legal main mission, like

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Speaker 1: all our missions are, and you lose your life. Um,

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Speaker 1: that's that star will go on the wall and will

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Speaker 1: remain there. Now. The one thing that can change, and

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Speaker 1: it has in certain cases earlier stars that we could

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Speaker 1: not say who they were. After a certain amount of time,

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Speaker 1: the agency has said, Okay, it's time to honor this

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Speaker 1: individual so their family can really know because the rations say,

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Speaker 1: well he was in where thirty years ago. That's about

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Speaker 1: the only change to the stars there. And unfortunately, what

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Speaker 1: we keep doing is adding you figure almost a third

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Speaker 1: of those uh that those stars that we have on

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Speaker 1: the wall are post nine to eleven. Interesting, sad, but

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Speaker 1: very interesting. Um. Several people have tweeted to me about

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Speaker 1: Annie Jacobson's book Surprise Kill Vanish and asked whether you

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Speaker 1: would share your opinion on that. Well, I had to

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Speaker 1: share really good opinion is because I'm in that book Um,

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Speaker 1: there's actually a sort of several pages on me on

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Speaker 1: that book. It's an excellent, uh compiling of information. Annie.

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Speaker 1: I know Annie personally. I helped her with certain parts

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Speaker 1: of that book that we're authorized, but um, the amount

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Speaker 1: of research that she did in the wide audience that

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Speaker 1: she canvassed, within the agency and within the community US

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Speaker 1: in our special military, UM, a lot of a lot

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Speaker 1: of that book has. The main protagonist is a guy

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Speaker 1: named Billy Waugh who's a very very dear friend of mine.

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Speaker 1: Billy wall was a Green Baba legend in Vietnam during

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Speaker 1: the early years, did twenty some years in the agency.

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Speaker 1: He is the guy that was doing surveillance and the

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Speaker 1: lad when we started the Bladen task for Mike Showyer

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Speaker 1: and myself. Um. He is the guy that captured Carlos

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Speaker 1: the Jackal Elis Ramirez, the infamous terrorist. He's the one

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Speaker 1: that found him and uh in Khartoum. So, yeah, the

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Speaker 1: book is excellent and it's it's one of the books

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Speaker 1: that I recommend. And when he times, somebody tells me

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Speaker 1: that they want to know a little bit more about

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Speaker 1: special operations because it's not just intelligence. There's a lot

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Speaker 1: of military in the book excellent books. Yeah, so this

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Speaker 1: may be more of a disparity between central until ents

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Speaker 1: and military intelligence. But I remember when and somebody asked

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Speaker 1: me to ask you about this, when Manuel Noriega was

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Speaker 1: help you know, was holding up in his palace and

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Speaker 1: wouldn't come out and they were blasting him twenty four

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Speaker 1: seven with with rock music like Panama by Van Halen.

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Speaker 1: Um was that like, I mean, it seemed kind of

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Speaker 1: amateurs totally. I didn't. I never found that very clever.

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Speaker 1: But is that does that sort of thing work? And

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Speaker 1: what was the general feeling about that at the time. Well,

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Speaker 1: I wasn't directly involved with it. I do know some

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Speaker 1: people that were. UM. A lot of that was the

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Speaker 1: military had the operational control for because it wasn't you know,

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Speaker 1: it was an invasion for lack of you know a

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Speaker 1: better term, uh, in order to to get him out

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Speaker 1: of power and slow down the ARCO trafficking that he

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Speaker 1: was supporting. UM. But you know, in in war, and

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Speaker 1: this was a war, there are no rules, you know, whatever,

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Speaker 1: whatever you want to do, whatever you want to try.

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Speaker 1: If it works, it's good. If it didn't work, it's

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Speaker 1: not good, and you learn from that. But yeah, innovation

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Speaker 1: and create creativities are huge tools in the intelligence community

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Speaker 1: because I think that's what we use the most, is that,

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Speaker 1: you know, be able to come up with something that

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Speaker 1: gets you to where not the average individual will ever

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Speaker 1: get to. Yeah, but so that seemed more like theater

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Speaker 1: put on for the twenty four seven, you know, news channels,

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Speaker 1: and if it's can't it just sort of seemed doomed

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Speaker 1: from the beginning. If you could defeat the sound and

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Speaker 1: the lights with a couple of wads of toilet paper

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Speaker 1: in your ears and a rag, you could get to sleep.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't going to be like lying on the floor

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Speaker 1: going I can't take it anymore, you know. But just

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Speaker 1: didn't seem like that was going to be very effective now,

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Speaker 1: and that wouldn't happen. I think that again, it was

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Speaker 1: just one more tool if they were using to harass him,

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Speaker 1: to demoralize him and his troops. So right, But no,

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Speaker 1: the singularly that would have actual, absolutely no major impact

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Speaker 1: on anything. So I can't imagine. Now I want to

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Speaker 1: ask you about an illegal operation, because we've been talking

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Speaker 1: about the legal stuff and you mentioned too about you know,

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Speaker 1: steal a dollar, misconstrue a report to your own advantage

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Speaker 1: or something. And that brings me to something which we

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Speaker 1: talked a lot about the show on the show over

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Speaker 1: the years, and what was originally sort of passed off

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Speaker 1: and the dismissed and now verified, which is the mk

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Speaker 1: ULTRA program of the illegal human experimentation that was undertaken

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Speaker 1: by the CIA. I'm not holding you responsible for it.

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Speaker 1: My question is where would mk ultra have fallen under

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Speaker 1: that operational structure of the CIA. Do you have any idea? Well,

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Speaker 1: you know, well, first of all, you're talking something I

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Speaker 1: was probably still a cube of when the sub of

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Speaker 1: the it's not you, I'm not putting out your feet

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Speaker 1: and most of the people that I work with were

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Speaker 1: from a different network anyway. But a the CIA has

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Speaker 1: a medical division Offensive Medical Services, and they are doctor psychiatrists,

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Speaker 1: medics UM. And there's also the Director of Science and Technology,

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Speaker 1: which is usually more of the high tech anything from

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Speaker 1: satellites to you know, lizard the size of bugs that

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Speaker 1: they could put in your house or whatever. But they

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Speaker 1: would also be UM, you know, in charge of any

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Speaker 1: kind of those experiments the U when we say illegal,

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Speaker 1: I don't know. Again, I wasn't there, But was this

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Speaker 1: something that was you know, Natalie, decided by the agency.

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Speaker 1: Was it something that the military was also doing. Was

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Speaker 1: it something that was approved at a higher level and

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Speaker 1: that we would probably never know. Listen to more Coast

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Speaker 1: to Coast AM every weeknight at one a m. Eastern

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Speaker 1: and go to Coast to Coast am dot com for

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Speaker 1: more