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Speaker 1: Hi, everyone, Sophia Bush here. Welcome to work in progress

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Speaker 1: where I talked to people who inspire me about how

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Speaker 1: they got to where they are and where they think

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Speaker 1: they're still going. I'm so incredibly thrilled that we all

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Speaker 1: are graced with the presence of today's guest. She is

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Speaker 1: faith healer, a scholar, and an award winning peacemaker. She

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Speaker 1: is the brilliant professor at gives Aid. Magiba is an

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Speaker 1: associate professor of inter Religious Education at Claremont School of

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Speaker 1: Theology and a director of the Center for Global Peace Building.

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Speaker 1: A two time recipient of the John Anson Board Award

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Speaker 1: for reducing violence in schools and in areas of interracial

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Speaker 1: gang conflicts, Magiba is widely recognized as a leader in

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Speaker 1: peace building and social justice based research. Her work has

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Speaker 1: included starting restorative justice meditation programs in many institutions, including

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Speaker 1: the University of Southern California and numerous middle and high schools.

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Speaker 1: Nijiba is a highly sought after adviser that has served

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Speaker 1: as an on the ground peace interventionist and facilitated conflict

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Speaker 1: resolution processes for conflicts and controversies around the world. In

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Speaker 1: addition to sharing numerous international conferences on Muslim and interfaith

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Speaker 1: peace building. As a scholar, her research articles have explored

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Speaker 1: everything from restorative healing and justice, to faith based conflict resolution,

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Speaker 1: to analysis of state violence and structural racism, and she

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Speaker 1: has designed and taught numerous graduate courses in inter religious education.

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Speaker 1: Nigiba is also a regular blogger for Muslim Voices, Feminist

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Speaker 1: dot Com, Huffington Post, and has been featured in The

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Speaker 1: Los Angeles Times, on NPR, PBS, and cantinues to be

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Speaker 1: quoted by print and news media around the globe. In

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Speaker 1: my conversation with Nigibo, we discuss peacemaking versus peace producing,

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Speaker 1: the importance of listening, the many forms of violence we

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Speaker 1: experience in the world, how to discuss conflict with children,

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Speaker 1: Nigiba's connection to numerous cultures and faiths, immigrating to the

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Speaker 1: United States, and her childhood a life experiences, ideas and

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Speaker 1: principles that guide her academic and social justice work. Enjoy Wow, Well,

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Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining me today. What a

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Speaker 1: what an odd time and strange circumstance. It makes me

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Speaker 1: even more grateful to have the opportunity to have inspiring conversations,

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Speaker 1: that's for sure. Absolutely yeah, I think, um, I think,

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Speaker 1: you know, you you read about things in history and

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Speaker 1: you think I'm never going to live through that, and

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Speaker 1: then you suddenly realize we are living in a moment

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Speaker 1: that's going to be recorded for so many generations to come.

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Speaker 1: They're going to look at us and see what choices

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Speaker 1: we made as people. Well, let's let's go back a bit.

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Speaker 1: I'm I'm actually trying to remember. I was talking to

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Speaker 1: my producer about this this morning. Do you do you

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Speaker 1: know how we first connected. I feel like we've been

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Speaker 1: connected for so long that I don't remember. I think

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Speaker 1: we have a lot of common friends, um nia or

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Speaker 1: there are a lot of folks that are doing good work,

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Speaker 1: and you know, I believe that good work. You know,

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Speaker 1: we gather around it. I tell my students, my graduate students,

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Speaker 1: I say, don't network, but look for people who are

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Speaker 1: doing the good work that you want to do in

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Speaker 1: the world, and you'll find that people are connected. So

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Speaker 1: you make the world smaller when we do good for

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Speaker 1: each other and for the larger community. So yeah, I

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Speaker 1: feel like we met in some I don't think we

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Speaker 1: met face to face, but we met through so many

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Speaker 1: other people who have recommended UM you know recommended the

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Speaker 1: good work that you support, so so it's an honor

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Speaker 1: for me as well. Well, thank you. I it's funny.

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Speaker 1: I was saying to have another friend a while back

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Speaker 1: that I feel like in the last decade, Uh, do

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Speaker 1: you remember those little magnet games the the and their

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Speaker 1: their clusters of like little kind of pewter colored magnetic balls,

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Speaker 1: and when you spread them out, if you get them

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Speaker 1: far enough apart, the magnetic poll stops and then you

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Speaker 1: start to kind of bat them in from the edges

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Speaker 1: and then suddenly they all cluster back together really fast.

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Speaker 1: I feel like that has happened in my world with

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Speaker 1: to your point, so many people who are doing good

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Speaker 1: work and working on incredible social change, and it's almost

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Speaker 1: like we've all been able to magnet together. And I

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Speaker 1: think it's particularly the folks that we have in common

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Speaker 1: have always been animated by an ethic of love, because

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Speaker 1: it's a way to do social change and social justice

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Speaker 1: work that's really transactional. And what I always tell folks

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Speaker 1: that I work with, if you're not animated with love

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Speaker 1: and looking for your own self transformation and learning, then

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Speaker 1: you're just out there doing things for people. And what

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Speaker 1: we really want to do is work with people, not

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Speaker 1: for people. So you know, I think that's really important.

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Speaker 1: One of really beautiful, beautiful saying by an African theologian

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Speaker 1: Marcia yo Ye. She says that it's not that people

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Speaker 1: don't have voice, it's that we all need to learn

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Speaker 1: to listen better. So no one is voice. We have

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Speaker 1: to work collectively to listen better. So I think that's

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Speaker 1: that really taught me a lot about how I do

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Speaker 1: my work. I love that. Wow, that really that cuts deep.

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Speaker 1: That's really beautiful. Well, before we move into how how

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Speaker 1: to listen and and who you listen to in the

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Speaker 1: ways that you do, I always like to go back

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Speaker 1: with my guests. I like to kind of start at

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Speaker 1: the beginning. You were born in Kashmir, I was, I was,

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Speaker 1: I was born here? And how long did you live

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Speaker 1: there before coming to the States. So I was born

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Speaker 1: there and I came to the United States when I

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Speaker 1: was three years old. Kashmir Um, if you're aware of it,

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Speaker 1: has one of the highest military to civilian ratios in

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Speaker 1: the world. So I grew up with this kind of

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Speaker 1: history and story of of really of violence and being

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Speaker 1: born into a place that had been subjected to multiple

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Speaker 1: generations of it, And so when I came to the US,

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Speaker 1: I said, you know, UM, I didn't say that three

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Speaker 1: years old. I was just learning how to speak. I think, UM,

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Speaker 1: you know, at that age, I I began to understand

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Speaker 1: that I wanted to dedicate my life to peacemaking and

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Speaker 1: always of animating, just to through a lens of wholeness

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Speaker 1: and healing and wellness for everyone. Was that part of

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Speaker 1: why your parents wanted to immigrate to the US, to

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Speaker 1: have a different kind of societal experience, more separate from

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Speaker 1: a military UM, I think what I think the reality

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Speaker 1: of such a large military presence in Kashmir led a

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Speaker 1: lot of people to think about what opportunities their children had.

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Speaker 1: And for my parents, like many immigrant families, education was

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Speaker 1: so important. So they came here to study as students

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Speaker 1: and um contributed to society and felt that this was

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Speaker 1: a place that they wanted to contribute to. And I

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Speaker 1: think one of the things they really taught us was that,

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Speaker 1: for instance, UM, I became involved with gun control and

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Speaker 1: violence prevention in the United States because I always thought,

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Speaker 1: you know, I'm also a Muslim, and I always felt

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Speaker 1: that being a peacemaker is because of my religion, not

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Speaker 1: despite it. So if I am going to work to

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Speaker 1: end war all over the world, then I have to

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Speaker 1: be able to do as I've done it over the years,

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Speaker 1: work on, for instance, interracial gain conflicts here in Los Angeles,

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Speaker 1: and and be a peacemaker not just for religion, religious

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Speaker 1: communities around the world and intervening a complex but to

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Speaker 1: do it in my own backyard. So I didn't want

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Speaker 1: to be um, you know, I wanted to make sure

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Speaker 1: that my whole life had an integrity around peacemaking, so

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Speaker 1: that wherever I am, I don't just make peace, but

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Speaker 1: I'm part of producing it. How do you distinguish the two,

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Speaker 1: making peace and producing peace? I think, Um, that's a

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Speaker 1: really good question. Um. So in terms of making peace,

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Speaker 1: I see it as you come into a conflict, it's

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Speaker 1: already happened, and we're asking sort of after the fact,

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Speaker 1: what do we do after this situation? What do we do? Um?

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Speaker 1: And peace producing says, you know what, we want to

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Speaker 1: emanate peace from the internal level, so that when I

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Speaker 1: walk into a room, my presence itself encourages both my

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Speaker 1: own soul and those around me to act in a

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Speaker 1: way that's far more respectful and then taking the next

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Speaker 1: level to the structural level. So in my work I

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Speaker 1: talk a lot about structural violence and racism. So it's

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Speaker 1: not just about me, you know, you and I Sophia

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Speaker 1: getting along. It's about does the whole society is it

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Speaker 1: built on a culture of peace? Or are we built

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Speaker 1: on a culture of violence? And I often tell people

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Speaker 1: any religion, or any community or any place is capable

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Speaker 1: of violence or peace. What we need to think about

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Speaker 1: in peace production is whether as a culture we're encouraging

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Speaker 1: and rewarding violence or encouraging and rewarding peace. When you

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Speaker 1: talk about encouragement and reward for violence or peace, what

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Speaker 1: for people who are listening, what are what are ways

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Speaker 1: that you identify those things? What could we be looking

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Speaker 1: at and learning to see encouragement or reward around us?

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Speaker 1: You know? Um For instance, leaders like Nelson Mandela tell

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Speaker 1: us the way of society treats its children is an

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Speaker 1: indicator of how much that society values the next generations.

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Speaker 1: So do we have schools that are funded well, do

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Speaker 1: we have programs that engage and involve our youth after school?

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Speaker 1: Do we have a society that is investing far more

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Speaker 1: on technology of war over peace? Um, you know, I

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Speaker 1: think those are some substantial things that you can see

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Speaker 1: just from the way we make budgets in our communities,

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Speaker 1: even at the very local level, you know, are we

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Speaker 1: you know, I think a lot about the notion of

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Speaker 1: how moving away from retributive justice or away from investing

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Speaker 1: just in policing and more into the community with social

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Speaker 1: workers who can go out when a conflict happens instead

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Speaker 1: of calling um and relying on on interventions that are

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Speaker 1: far more you know, it can be damaging if they're

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Speaker 1: not taking in the mental health component of a of

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Speaker 1: a conflict. So so those are some of the indicators.

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Speaker 1: And I wonder what the world would look like if

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Speaker 1: we began to think about what if we invested in

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Speaker 1: peace as much or even a fraction of what we

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Speaker 1: invest in violence. And I think we would have a

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Speaker 1: really different way of looking at almost everything in our lives.

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Speaker 1: I really like that. Do you do you from this

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Speaker 1: perspective in the way that you analyze things now and

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Speaker 1: then thinking about as you were saying, you know, coming

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Speaker 1: here at three, do you recall when you became aware

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Speaker 1: of systems like this, when when this stuff started to

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Speaker 1: sort of illuminate for you, was was that coming from

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Speaker 1: your family or these conversations you were having in the home.

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Speaker 1: You know, I think, Um, I think that's I think

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Speaker 1: that the light turned on partly when I was traveling

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Speaker 1: and um, you know, all over the world and seeing, um,

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Speaker 1: seeing the outcome of generational war and conflict, and then

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Speaker 1: hearing and learning about the fact that kids in parts

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Speaker 1: of l A have as much PTSD or stress level

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Speaker 1: because of the violence that they experienced in their daily lives.

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Speaker 1: And you know, I realized, like we have this idea

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Speaker 1: of of of celebrating Nobel Prize winners who do something,

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Speaker 1: you know, as Americans. Um, often it's like, well, they're

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Speaker 1: doing peace abroad somewhere else far away, they're parachuting in

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Speaker 1: and coming into a conflict. And you know, I think,

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Speaker 1: UM kind of turning that lens in and saying, you know,

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Speaker 1: my students, I trained people who are going to be pastors,

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Speaker 1: We are going to be rabbis, who are going to

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Speaker 1: be imams, religious leaders, and the stories of what they

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Speaker 1: do on the front lines of preventing violence and communities,

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Speaker 1: of dealing with food deserts. You know, there's all kinds

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Speaker 1: and all forms of violence when you don't have healthy

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Speaker 1: food in your neighborhood. You know that leads we don't

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Speaker 1: think about that, but that is and I think what

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Speaker 1: has become so clear to me in UM now we're

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Speaker 1: looking at at the communities and the demographics of who

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Speaker 1: are dying from the coronavirus, and we realize that communities

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Speaker 1: of color are disproportionately affected. So I think for me,

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Speaker 1: it's always been it's always been a piece of thinking

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Speaker 1: about how as a religious and spiritual person. You know,

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Speaker 1: is my neighbor going to bed hungry? That's a question

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Speaker 1: we ask in my tradition, is your neighbor hungry? Can

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Speaker 1: you go to sleep? That's something that you know, the

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Speaker 1: Christian tradition says you're supposed to love yourself as your neighbor,

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Speaker 1: and the Jewish tradition is so deeply involved with healing

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Speaker 1: the world to cool no long So you know, that's

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Speaker 1: a question that it shouldn't be a controversial question. You know,

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Speaker 1: are people hungry? Are do people have access to healthcare?

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Speaker 1: I mean, these are all questions. Not having healthcare as

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Speaker 1: a form of violence right now. Can't go and get

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Speaker 1: the treatment unique to sorry at the hospital, then you

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Speaker 1: know this is these are realities that we have to

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Speaker 1: begin to think about violence isn't just getting UM. Violence

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Speaker 1: isn't just inflicted by a weapon. Violence can be inflicted

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Speaker 1: by these invisible these invisible weapons, that weapons that don't

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Speaker 1: of people access to UM to healthcare, Yeah, for all

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Speaker 1: forms of care these days. You know, UM, we live

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Speaker 1: in the city of Los Angeles, has tens of thousands

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Speaker 1: of people in the streets. Um, there's a beautiful church

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Speaker 1: that does a service every year for the people that

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Speaker 1: die in the streets in Los Angeles that have no

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Speaker 1: one to um to, to to name, or to to

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Speaker 1: hold that ceremony for them. So, you know, I think

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Speaker 1: I think while there can, while we can get overwhelmed

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Speaker 1: with it, it's important not to get paralyzed in our

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Speaker 1: analysis and say, there's so many difficult things. The hope is,

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Speaker 1: the hope is always that it's not only just one

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Speaker 1: person changing things. But the hardest thing to change is

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Speaker 1: the way things are. And if you ask people why

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Speaker 1: do you do things, and they say, well, we just

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Speaker 1: do it because it's always been done this way, we

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Speaker 1: need to interrogate that question, you know, we need to

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Speaker 1: interrogate that and say, well, do prisons make sense? Does

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Speaker 1: you know does it make sense what we're doing? Does

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Speaker 1: it make sense to not have healthcare accessible? So, you know,

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Speaker 1: just because something has been done a certain way doesn't

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Speaker 1: mean that it's right. In fact, it might have been

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Speaker 1: built in a way that it would exclude others, right. Well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: to to ask some of those questions, you know, does

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Speaker 1: it make sense that we as a nation spend more

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Speaker 1: on our military than the next twenty six countries combined

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Speaker 1: on on the greatest expenditures list, Um, but we don't

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Speaker 1: create access to healthcare, which again, we know, if we

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Speaker 1: had universal health care, we'd be saving money because we

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Speaker 1: wouldn't be treating so many sick people when they're so sick.

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Speaker 1: We would keep people well. It's it's all really interesting

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Speaker 1: to examine, especially at a time like this, especially in

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Speaker 1: the midst of the of this pandemic. You mentioned UH teaching,

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Speaker 1: and you talk about UH whether the clergy, the rabbinical tradition,

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Speaker 1: in moms, in the Muslim tradition. The connection that you

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Speaker 1: have to so many cultures, to so many faiths. Did

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Speaker 1: that come from the work or did that play a

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Speaker 1: role in your life growing up? It definitely was how

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Speaker 1: I was raised. I remember, you know, I thought, oh,

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Speaker 1: when I was growing up, of course I went to

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Speaker 1: mosque and I attended mouscre in Los Angeles every Saturday,

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Speaker 1: re feed people of all different faith traditions. And I thought, oh,

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Speaker 1: doesn't everyone go to you know, doesn't everyone go to church?

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Speaker 1: Or haven't you been to a synagogue or a sara

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Speaker 1: or a Hindu temple? And I realized, no, not everyone

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Speaker 1: has done that. And what's incredible is that all the

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Speaker 1: research shows that we are imprinted with racism, with sexism,

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Speaker 1: with homophobia, whatever a form of hatred is by the

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Speaker 1: age of five. So you actually, what we talk about

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Speaker 1: in my work is pro social programs helping people work

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Speaker 1: across difference. You know, we have to work with kids

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Speaker 1: as young as zero to five. So I remember going

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Speaker 1: into elementary schools and teaching children on playgrounds how to

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Speaker 1: mediate conflicts. And you know, so funny is um if

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Speaker 1: you go to a kindergarten playground, the way that the

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Speaker 1: children negotiate getting on a swing, those are the same

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Speaker 1: dynamics that two countries can do to negotiate through violence

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Speaker 1: or even trade agreements. It's about taking turns, it's about communicating,

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Speaker 1: it's about learning each other's interests, and so for me,

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Speaker 1: I think my childhood really built this capacity to be

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Speaker 1: passionate about understanding that in the end, winning is not

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Speaker 1: about dominating the other, but it's about humanizing one another

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Speaker 1: UM in a way that inspires us to change, not

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Speaker 1: just for ourselves but with each other. What does it

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Speaker 1: look like? And this this takes us a bit off

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Speaker 1: track of my questions, but we'll come back. What does

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Speaker 1: it look like to teach conflict mediation and resolution to

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Speaker 1: elementary school kids? Where do you start? That's my favorite.

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Speaker 1: Before I became a professor, I actually did. I ran

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Speaker 1: organizations that did that for ten years. And you know

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Speaker 1: what's powerful as children have like an innate sense of justice,

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Speaker 1: They understand fairness, they understand comparity, and they have um

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Speaker 1: an incredible capacity for compassion. So you know, I I

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Speaker 1: often tell parents that I'm working with I. I also

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Speaker 1: go to my mosque and we have a parenting group.

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Speaker 1: We talked about sibling conflicts a couple of weeks ago,

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Speaker 1: and we talked about instead of using a punishing approach

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Speaker 1: UM with children, how do you have a conversation that

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Speaker 1: gets to vulnerability. Because right now our society says the

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Speaker 1: way to be strong is to dominate the other physically,

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Speaker 1: is to have more power, more money, to have more

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Speaker 1: whatever that value is. And what I what I found

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Speaker 1: with children, I often say, you know, hate is a

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Speaker 1: learned behavior, but so is love. So just like we

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Speaker 1: have to invest in peace at the social level, we

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Speaker 1: have to teach, We have to teach and operationalize love.

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Speaker 1: Like when I work with young kids, I say, what

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Speaker 1: does peace sound like to you? What does peace feel like?

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Speaker 1: What does peace smell like in your community? And have

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Speaker 1: them draw their own neighborhood and talk about what peace

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Speaker 1: what does peace mean to them? Um? And you would

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Speaker 1: be so amazed because so many of them bring in nature.

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Speaker 1: You know, a child six or seven will start to

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Speaker 1: talk about, well, you know, I wish we had more trees.

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Speaker 1: I wish that I could see water because that makes

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Speaker 1: me feel peaceful. And so what we find is that

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Speaker 1: children need opportunities to be able to talk about conflict,

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Speaker 1: and they need an opportunity to understand how to navigate

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Speaker 1: the hard feelings that come with it. Because what conflict.

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Speaker 1: We're scared, We're threatened, and if we don't know how

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Speaker 1: to deal with that fear, as we grow older, that

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Speaker 1: fear turns into hate, and that hate turns into you know, prejudice.

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Speaker 1: So we really have to imprint young kids with the

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Speaker 1: capacity to not just talk about difference, but also experience

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Speaker 1: people and communities that are very different from who they are.

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Speaker 1: That's really interesting. How did your parents do that with you?

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Speaker 1: You know, what was your life like as a little girl,

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Speaker 1: what kinds of activity these were you into, and how

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Speaker 1: did this sort of diversity of experience come into play? So, um,

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Speaker 1: you know, my parents were really um, we're really interested

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Speaker 1: in having us meet people of different backgrounds and religious traditions.

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Speaker 1: There was no part of this city that wasn't a

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Speaker 1: part of our city. We didn't they and they never

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Speaker 1: use terminology like this is, this is, this part of

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Speaker 1: town is safe, this part of town is not safe.

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Speaker 1: This institution, this church, this mosque, whatever it is. And

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Speaker 1: I didn't realize to what degree they really built a

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Speaker 1: sense of community. So even the language we use to

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Speaker 1: describe the world around our children, if we use language

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Speaker 1: that presents elements as threatening or locations or communities, that

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Speaker 1: gets imprinted on us. And they really have the incredible

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Speaker 1: holistic language. And I think central to what they did,

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Speaker 1: uh was our education sation exposing us to books from

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Speaker 1: UM different histories, different traditions. So it wasn't like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: I'm Nigiba and my history is the only one that

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Speaker 1: I need to learn. That's a sense of connection to

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Speaker 1: so many different UM communities and exposure through books, through movies,

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Speaker 1: through discussions, through friendships. But none of it was forced

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Speaker 1: because I think sometimes parents, I have a eleven year old,

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Speaker 1: she's like, I'm eleven, Mom, I'm not twelve yet. I'm

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Speaker 1: an eleven and a thirteen year old, And you know,

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Speaker 1: I think it's important not to say, hey, kids, now

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Speaker 1: we're going to talk about diversity, right, and to make

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Speaker 1: it to kind of they just from my parents, it

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Speaker 1: was seamlessly built into who we were and how we

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Speaker 1: functioned as a family. And that's what I would really

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Speaker 1: encourage us to think about, is how do we transform

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Speaker 1: our lives to be built on principles that are really

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Speaker 1: authentic to us. So for me, as a Muslim woman,

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Speaker 1: a South Asian woman, UM, when I come to this work,

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Speaker 1: I come to deeply embedded in um my history, but

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Speaker 1: also very literate of other histories and communities, and I

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Speaker 1: think that's really important. I'm really thankful for them so,

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Speaker 1: and they would take us to like religious celebrations of

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Speaker 1: other communities. I remember, I remember going to a satyr

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Speaker 1: at the age of seven and hearing Hebrew, and you know,

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Speaker 1: it wasn't it wasn't something that was so exotic and foreign.

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Speaker 1: It became just a part of appreciating and really the

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Speaker 1: best way to describe it is they taught me to

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Speaker 1: see the sacred where I was. It's so cool. I

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Speaker 1: I love that you had that experience because I did

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Speaker 1: in my own way as well. My my mom grew

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Speaker 1: up very Catholic, my dad um grew up of in

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Speaker 1: a different Christian tradition, is pretty agnostic, and my aunt

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Speaker 1: and uncle are Jewish. I grew up celebrating, you know,

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Speaker 1: Christmas in Honikah and going to church and Mass sometimes

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Speaker 1: and going to synagogue a lot, and and it made

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Speaker 1: me so curious because as a little kid, I realized

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Speaker 1: how many people would fight about religion, and to me,

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Speaker 1: I was like, I mean, this is kind of the same.

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Speaker 1: And that got me studying Eastern traditions and got me

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Speaker 1: study in Hinduism, and then my my senior year in

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Speaker 1: high school actually took a full year of Islamic study

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Speaker 1: and and I'm so grateful to have grown up in

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Speaker 1: a family that always encouraged my exploration and and to

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Speaker 1: your point, to see the through line of the sacred

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Speaker 1: in any faith is something that I am just so

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Speaker 1: grateful to have been able to experience throughout my life.

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Speaker 1: And it has affected the way that I travel, and

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Speaker 1: it affects the way I get to participate in my community.

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Speaker 1: You know, whether it's going to service at temple for

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Speaker 1: high holidays or going to Friday prayer at mosque with

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Speaker 1: my friend. May you know, there's there's such a there's

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Speaker 1: such a beauty in the reverence of it, and and

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Speaker 1: I do wish that that was more readily available to

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Speaker 1: all of us to experience each other's worlds and traditions

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Speaker 1: um in the same way. I think that as a

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Speaker 1: society we've come to love experiencing other people's food. We

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Speaker 1: forget that other people's food is of their culture, is

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Speaker 1: of their heritage, and I and I wish that we

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Speaker 1: were more encouraged to take its steps farther and and

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Speaker 1: really learn about each other's practices. I think it's so

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Speaker 1: illuminating and unifying. Yeah, absolutely, And one thing I try

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Speaker 1: to integrate into my children is that not only is

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Speaker 1: it exposure, but it's also listening to stories and learning

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Speaker 1: about other religious traditions, not just thing about them, but

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Speaker 1: learning from what we call lived religion, which is sacred

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Speaker 1: you know, not just looking at the Quran and um,

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Speaker 1: the Hebrew Bible and you know, in the New Testament.

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Speaker 1: But it's about how are people everyday people practicing their

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Speaker 1: faith and also includes people who don't have a religious prescription,

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Speaker 1: people who are not connected to one religious community. And

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Speaker 1: I think that connection is through justice and service. So

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Speaker 1: for my kids, their youth group at their mosque that

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Speaker 1: didn't inner faith dialogue with a Jewish youth group too

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Speaker 1: is really sweet. But with my kids, it's also really

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Speaker 1: about lived religion. How do they live out their tradition

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Speaker 1: as Muslims. So that means whenever we can on Saturday,

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Speaker 1: we um go to our mosque and prepare and actually

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Speaker 1: go directly and serve, you know, mostly Christian. My mosque

431
00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:57,760
Speaker 1: is in Korea Town, so it's a mostly elderly Christian

432
00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:02,720
Speaker 1: Asian um Asian and families that come and it's so

433
00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:06,000
Speaker 1: sweet because it's elderly Christian. Man he doesn't speak English,

434
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:08,639
Speaker 1: but he takes my daughter aside or and says to

435
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:13,240
Speaker 1: her in Arabic, thank you. And you know she'll ask me, Mom,

436
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:14,919
Speaker 1: how you know we sit there and we were just

437
00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:18,800
Speaker 1: marveling and how people are making this effort to learn

438
00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:23,399
Speaker 1: our culture while they're in a petition of you know,

439
00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:26,040
Speaker 1: being in our community. And then we go to the

440
00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:29,119
Speaker 1: park across the mossk and give food to families that

441
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:32,560
Speaker 1: live without shelter. So I want, you know, I want

442
00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:36,840
Speaker 1: them to understand that their religious tradition is not about

443
00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:42,320
Speaker 1: just serving people who are like them, but it's about

444
00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:47,440
Speaker 1: UH walking in our community. We say, you know, the

445
00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:52,120
Speaker 1: prayer of people who are oppressed that God answers them.

446
00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:55,600
Speaker 1: There's no veil between them and God. So I want

447
00:28:55,640 --> 00:29:00,240
Speaker 1: them to understand that actually UM, people UM that are

448
00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:05,920
Speaker 1: often in other scenarios not valued UM as a spiritual

449
00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:08,840
Speaker 1: person in a spiritual practice, that's actually the most holy

450
00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:11,200
Speaker 1: place to be. It's not out of pity, it's actually

451
00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:14,600
Speaker 1: that that is the most sacred place to be. And

452
00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:20,160
Speaker 1: UH service isn't about charity, it's about UM. It's about

453
00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:24,160
Speaker 1: walking with people in their journey, and services about uplifting

454
00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:27,920
Speaker 1: yourself by being with those that are closest to God.

455
00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:30,800
Speaker 1: It makes me think and I promise this is going

456
00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:33,960
Speaker 1: somewhere good. It makes me think of that. There's a

457
00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:36,959
Speaker 1: meme that's been going around a lot on social media

458
00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:41,160
Speaker 1: that talks about how so many of the leaders in

459
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:45,160
Speaker 1: this country who claim to be religious or acting so

460
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:49,120
Speaker 1: a religiously that that you know, for for many of

461
00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:54,080
Speaker 1: these conservative leaders who say that they're Christian, that there

462
00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:57,320
Speaker 1: they're missing it because Jesus would have been walking with

463
00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:00,360
Speaker 1: the homeless and the refugees and those without of care

464
00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:03,080
Speaker 1: and those suffering and you know, those of the border

465
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:08,240
Speaker 1: and um. And I think there's something so magnificent about

466
00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:13,840
Speaker 1: that reminder that to be of service, to be whatever

467
00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:17,040
Speaker 1: your faith's version of godly is, is to stand with

468
00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:24,600
Speaker 1: those who are suffering. And I just I think it's

469
00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:30,320
Speaker 1: a nice thing to to reiterate in in times like this,

470
00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:34,960
Speaker 1: where where scarcity can I think make people respond out

471
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:38,080
Speaker 1: of fear, to to choose to do the opposite and

472
00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:40,960
Speaker 1: respond out of love, and to show up and to

473
00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:43,840
Speaker 1: give when you might be afraid you may not have

474
00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:47,720
Speaker 1: enough is a real powerful medicine, you know. And what

475
00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:54,800
Speaker 1: struck me I've been tracking altruism or service um after

476
00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:57,480
Speaker 1: the virus all over the world, and it's been beautiful

477
00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:02,000
Speaker 1: in places like Pakistan, the Muslim tradition and of charity.

478
00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:05,760
Speaker 1: People are are helping those that are losing their jobs.

479
00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:10,560
Speaker 1: One of the most beautiful responses was from churches in

480
00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:13,280
Speaker 1: the South. I saw within a couple of days of

481
00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:17,000
Speaker 1: social isolations is almost maybe now three weeks ago. I

482
00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:21,240
Speaker 1: can't remember every day. It feels like a month. Um.

483
00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:25,440
Speaker 1: Conservative and liberal churches, UM. And I think that's really important. UM.

484
00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:28,600
Speaker 1: I was really struck by these churches that sent out

485
00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:31,720
Speaker 1: emails saying, you know, the elderly members of our community

486
00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:35,240
Speaker 1: cannot make it to the grocery store. So those of

487
00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:39,440
Speaker 1: us that are younger, um, you know, teenagers, We're going

488
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:43,840
Speaker 1: to go shopping and email all of the elderly members

489
00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:46,200
Speaker 1: of our community and dropped food off. And I saw

490
00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:50,160
Speaker 1: these these sign ups that you know, churches were doing locally,

491
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:52,640
Speaker 1: and I, you know, I think that that's really important

492
00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:56,640
Speaker 1: because religion is very often it's often assumed that those

493
00:31:56,680 --> 00:32:01,640
Speaker 1: that have a conservative perspective are are not generous, and

494
00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:05,200
Speaker 1: I think that's actually not the case. And I just

495
00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:09,680
Speaker 1: want to point out that whether you're progressive, whether you're conservative,

496
00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:13,280
Speaker 1: that there is always room for service, and people of

497
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:18,680
Speaker 1: different faith traditions are really working, um in a way

498
00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:21,200
Speaker 1: that is altruistic. And I got I was so struck

499
00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:24,640
Speaker 1: that it's actually people who have very little that are

500
00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:29,840
Speaker 1: giving so much. And um, you know, I'm sorry. We

501
00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:34,280
Speaker 1: don't have to give just from our we don't have

502
00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:38,040
Speaker 1: to give just money. We can give service. Um, there

503
00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:40,480
Speaker 1: have been a lot of I've been seeing a lot

504
00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:45,040
Speaker 1: of mosques and a lot of different churches and synagogues

505
00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:51,120
Speaker 1: who are sewing um face masks for healthcare ters. So

506
00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:55,040
Speaker 1: you know, we don't it's it's it seems like an

507
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:57,280
Speaker 1: adage where like oh, it's a cliche, like oh, do

508
00:32:57,360 --> 00:32:59,960
Speaker 1: something to help people out. But if you begin to

509
00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:03,280
Speaker 1: build it into your lifestyle and you do it with

510
00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:07,360
Speaker 1: your friends, you even change how you socialize instead of

511
00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:11,520
Speaker 1: getting together and um, you know, I get together with

512
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:15,600
Speaker 1: friends and do service. My children's birthdays we go to

513
00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:18,600
Speaker 1: these as I mentioned, food pantries and work. But part

514
00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:21,840
Speaker 1: of now their birthday is to say, hey, let's go

515
00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:25,120
Speaker 1: do some extra service. So it's built into how we

516
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:28,719
Speaker 1: do our lifestyle. And I think it has to be

517
00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:31,080
Speaker 1: built not just into you know, I don't want to

518
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:34,920
Speaker 1: encourage people to do altruism, tourism, you know where it's

519
00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:37,560
Speaker 1: you go out and you you want to have an experience.

520
00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:40,200
Speaker 1: What I'm trying to point out is here you starving

521
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:42,840
Speaker 1: at choices you make of what you buy where you

522
00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:46,280
Speaker 1: buy it. UM began to look at the businesses that

523
00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:51,560
Speaker 1: you support. You began to consider, you know, what investments

524
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:53,800
Speaker 1: you make. You begin I mean it just it changes

525
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:58,000
Speaker 1: that your perspective of am I serving a greater purpose

526
00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:02,240
Speaker 1: than myself? Yeah? And that doesn't have to be a

527
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:07,200
Speaker 1: religious principle. People who are secular and atheists can also

528
00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:10,239
Speaker 1: be humanists and think that way. So I just you know,

529
00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:13,040
Speaker 1: I just think that this is a wide open conversation.

530
00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:20,840
Speaker 1: And you know, I think sometimes marching uh Rabbi Heschel

531
00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:23,720
Speaker 1: said that, you know, marching was a form of prayer

532
00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:28,960
Speaker 1: when he walked with Dr King, So walking, So sometimes

533
00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:33,439
Speaker 1: this path doesn't have to be so UM, it doesn't

534
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:36,719
Speaker 1: have to be so public and so valiant. UM, we

535
00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:39,399
Speaker 1: truly know how ethical we are as human beings when

536
00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:40,920
Speaker 1: no one is in the room and we make the

537
00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:45,280
Speaker 1: right choice to support UM a larger sense of community

538
00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:52,879
Speaker 1: than ourselves. I love that it's so interesting to think

539
00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:56,920
Speaker 1: about your story and your kind of path and and

540
00:34:57,040 --> 00:35:01,120
Speaker 1: to see the parallels between way that you were raised

541
00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:04,000
Speaker 1: and the way that it has influenced your life and

542
00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:07,440
Speaker 1: the way that you're now raising your kids. What what

543
00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:10,000
Speaker 1: did your parents do when when they came here? What

544
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:12,600
Speaker 1: was life? Where did you move to? Where did you

545
00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:15,680
Speaker 1: where did you settle? I I realized I jumped ahead

546
00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:17,759
Speaker 1: and I forgot to ask you these questions that are

547
00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:19,759
Speaker 1: sitting here in front of my face on my prep dog.

548
00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:26,160
Speaker 1: So interestingly enough, I grew up mostly in the Midwest

549
00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:30,680
Speaker 1: of the United States, so my dad um my dad

550
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:36,480
Speaker 1: studied linguistics and languages at Indiana University. You know, one

551
00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:39,600
Speaker 1: thing I really loved about small towns, and this is

552
00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:42,399
Speaker 1: why I hope this conversation is much broader than just

553
00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:47,640
Speaker 1: the coasts. UM often help people interfaith work or work

554
00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:51,280
Speaker 1: between different religious communities. If it happens in small towns,

555
00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:55,360
Speaker 1: is the most profound in the homeland of the country

556
00:35:56,280 --> 00:35:59,759
Speaker 1: because there's usually one synagogue, one church, we'll many often

557
00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:03,560
Speaker 1: more churches, maybe one mosque. And the kinds of relationships

558
00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:06,760
Speaker 1: like I've seen in small towns in Iowa and Indiana,

559
00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:10,120
Speaker 1: UM in the South in Alabama when people do come

560
00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:12,680
Speaker 1: together they actually know each other. You know, it's it's

561
00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:16,879
Speaker 1: not just performance. It's uh, it's it's we know each other.

562
00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:21,960
Speaker 1: We're with each other when the synagogue gets targeted, people

563
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:25,720
Speaker 1: will show up when the mosque gets targeted. And um,

564
00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:29,719
Speaker 1: I think that in some ways spending the first ten

565
00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:33,680
Speaker 1: or eleven years in small towns, in a very small

566
00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:37,000
Speaker 1: town in Indiana, you know, Um, I was thinking about

567
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:41,680
Speaker 1: this my father. For Muslims at that time, similar to

568
00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:46,080
Speaker 1: the Jewish community who eat kosher meat, we eat something

569
00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:50,359
Speaker 1: called halal meat. So my dad needed to get halal meat,

570
00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:53,200
Speaker 1: and at this time in the eighties, there weren't really

571
00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:54,960
Speaker 1: stores that you could get it in a small town.

572
00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:58,920
Speaker 1: So he talked to my bus driver, Mrs Anderson, who

573
00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:02,680
Speaker 1: owned a farm also, and I was able to work

574
00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:06,120
Speaker 1: out this deal where he was able to to go

575
00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:08,960
Speaker 1: on her farm. Thinking about this, you know, a small

576
00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:13,000
Speaker 1: town in Indiana where my father goes in and does

577
00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:17,239
Speaker 1: the ceremonial method of how we procure our meat. So,

578
00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:20,239
Speaker 1: you know, it's kind of a funny story to think

579
00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:22,600
Speaker 1: about that. You know, a bus driver who's Christian and

580
00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:25,319
Speaker 1: a Muslim man who's studying at the local university. Kind

581
00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:28,480
Speaker 1: of you know, build this, build this connection, and it

582
00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:31,680
Speaker 1: is kind of a very Midwest story. So I actually

583
00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:34,800
Speaker 1: think it's not just my parents. I think it's being

584
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:39,080
Speaker 1: in a place where people genuinely care about each other.

585
00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:41,720
Speaker 1: And that's why I still have a lot of hope

586
00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:47,160
Speaker 1: for this kind of work, because you know, I think

587
00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:50,120
Speaker 1: one of the things that I often I'm really thinking

588
00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:53,319
Speaker 1: about in my work is I'm not really I'm not

589
00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:57,000
Speaker 1: my My struggle is not for independence, it's for interdependence.

590
00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:02,560
Speaker 1: M It's not about my dignity being recognized. It's about

591
00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:05,000
Speaker 1: the fact that, let's say I get to the point

592
00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:07,920
Speaker 1: where if your dignity is violated by someone, that's a

593
00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:12,320
Speaker 1: violation of my dignity. And when we reach the point

594
00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:17,960
Speaker 1: where our collective dignity is defined in such a way,

595
00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:23,719
Speaker 1: then what hurts you hurts me. And you know, that's

596
00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:25,799
Speaker 1: my hope that I raised my children that way, that

597
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:29,839
Speaker 1: they don't just base their sense of justice on when

598
00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:33,680
Speaker 1: they're violated, but they look at others in such a

599
00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:38,520
Speaker 1: way that their humanity is not fully recognized or realized

600
00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:41,920
Speaker 1: until the humanity of those around them is also fully

601
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:47,400
Speaker 1: recognized and realized. When in the in the timeline of

602
00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:49,759
Speaker 1: your childhood, you know, moving here and growing up in

603
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:53,919
Speaker 1: the Midwest, obviously eventually winding up in Los Angeles. When

604
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:55,719
Speaker 1: was the first time that you were able to go

605
00:38:55,840 --> 00:39:00,600
Speaker 1: back to cashmir Um. So, I, yeah, I I was

606
00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:02,800
Speaker 1: for the first ten years we were in the Midwest,

607
00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:04,360
Speaker 1: and then I was on the East Coast in the

608
00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:09,520
Speaker 1: Northern Virginia, DC area for middle school in high school.

609
00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:15,600
Speaker 1: I didn't go back until I became uh legal resident

610
00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:19,680
Speaker 1: of the United States when I was fifteen, and you know,

611
00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:23,200
Speaker 1: it was it was really um when I went back.

612
00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:26,359
Speaker 1: I think that was a pivotal moment um when I

613
00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:30,400
Speaker 1: went back and saw what it means to have the

614
00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:34,920
Speaker 1: impact of such sort of a military presence over generations,

615
00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:38,319
Speaker 1: you know, And I thought that was when I just,

616
00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:44,560
Speaker 1: you know, I had this really visceral feeling of for me,

617
00:39:44,719 --> 00:39:46,879
Speaker 1: the resource that I want to draw on for my

618
00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:51,480
Speaker 1: peacemaking is my faith tradition, and so that has really

619
00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:56,359
Speaker 1: thrust my research and my writing and my practice and

620
00:39:56,440 --> 00:39:58,760
Speaker 1: to do it and to grow up in the United

621
00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:02,480
Speaker 1: States after nine of oven, you know, to have a

622
00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:08,120
Speaker 1: community that's consistently targeted as being seen as violent. It's

623
00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:12,400
Speaker 1: interesting to me because I I've never had that connection

624
00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:16,399
Speaker 1: to my tradition. I've never I've never had to think through,

625
00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:19,080
Speaker 1: well how do I how do I be a Muslim

626
00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:24,320
Speaker 1: and be peaceful? They're synonymous for me and so UM,

627
00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:29,359
Speaker 1: I feel really gifted with the capacity to be able

628
00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:32,080
Speaker 1: to see religion as a force of peace, not just

629
00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:37,879
Speaker 1: my tradition but all religions. And you know what has

630
00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:41,839
Speaker 1: what has really changed, what changed from me on that

631
00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:47,880
Speaker 1: visit was this dedication to peacemaking in high school and

632
00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:52,600
Speaker 1: uh doing that work um with other with other people

633
00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:56,120
Speaker 1: my age, and then UM, I chose a Quaker college.

634
00:40:56,200 --> 00:40:59,880
Speaker 1: Quakers are known for their peacemaking work and there anti

635
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:03,800
Speaker 1: racism and abolitionist work. So I, as a young Muslim

636
00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:06,400
Speaker 1: girl at seventeen, was looking for someone to support my

637
00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:10,480
Speaker 1: peacemaking and ended up being mentored by some of um

638
00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:14,759
Speaker 1: some of the best scholars and activists on peacemaking and

639
00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:17,520
Speaker 1: poverty and justice who were Quakers in North Carolina and

640
00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:21,120
Speaker 1: the South. So you know, UM, it's funny I tell

641
00:41:21,160 --> 00:41:23,600
Speaker 1: these stories and they seem totally natural to me, and like,

642
00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:25,919
Speaker 1: why of course I would go to North Carolina and

643
00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:30,399
Speaker 1: study with um Quaker scholars of the Christian tradition and

644
00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:33,800
Speaker 1: end up, you know, being very grounded as a Muslim

645
00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:38,320
Speaker 1: in my tradition and doing peacemaking now for almost twenty

646
00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:41,359
Speaker 1: years in violent conflicts all over the world as well

647
00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:43,279
Speaker 1: as here in the United States. And now I have

648
00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:46,400
Speaker 1: the privilege of teaching my students to do it, and

649
00:41:46,440 --> 00:41:48,480
Speaker 1: I feel really blessed that many of them are doing it.

650
00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:54,280
Speaker 1: They work in prisons, they work in um, they work

651
00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:59,400
Speaker 1: in organizations around the country promoting peacemaking and inter faith.

652
00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:06,360
Speaker 1: Just this work that's so cool. Did you do you

653
00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:10,239
Speaker 1: think it was then that visit home at fifteen, or

654
00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:14,280
Speaker 1: to your home country at fifteen, that that really solidified

655
00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:18,640
Speaker 1: to you that you wanted to do peacemaking work as

656
00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:24,040
Speaker 1: your life's work. Absolutely. I remember I remember coming back

657
00:42:24,239 --> 00:42:27,719
Speaker 1: and just uh, just saying, you know, how do I

658
00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:31,759
Speaker 1: do this work, and how do I make sure that

659
00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:35,440
Speaker 1: I do it authentically and that I do it in

660
00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:40,359
Speaker 1: a way that has humility built on it, um at

661
00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:46,040
Speaker 1: the foundation. Because one thing I saw was that people

662
00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:51,600
Speaker 1: who uh we people who we um you know, often

663
00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:54,480
Speaker 1: revere as peacemakers. And I think of such amazing people

664
00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:59,719
Speaker 1: like Dr King and other folks um you know, they

665
00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:02,480
Speaker 1: did this work that they were. We we always celebrate

666
00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:07,400
Speaker 1: the individual and we forget the collective. And you know, um,

667
00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:10,239
Speaker 1: I'm really careful, and I really want to encourage all

668
00:43:10,239 --> 00:43:13,719
Speaker 1: of us to move away from the idea of one

669
00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:17,440
Speaker 1: savior coming in and changing everything for a community, or

670
00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:21,239
Speaker 1: all of us waiting for one person to win that

671
00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:25,640
Speaker 1: election and change everything. Um. What freed me at the

672
00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:31,919
Speaker 1: age of fifteen was to recognize that we there had

673
00:43:31,960 --> 00:43:35,440
Speaker 1: to be a capacity for me to be empowered to

674
00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:37,799
Speaker 1: believe that I could do the work and have the

675
00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:41,759
Speaker 1: vision that I had. And I think that's been the

676
00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:45,839
Speaker 1: major thrust is just it's it's someone told me there.

677
00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:50,160
Speaker 1: They haven't heard this. My whole life here so naively optimistic,

678
00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:54,839
Speaker 1: and I always say, well, thank you very much, because

679
00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:57,279
Speaker 1: if you don't believe in a vision that's different than

680
00:43:57,280 --> 00:43:59,360
Speaker 1: what you have in front of you, you'll just succumb

681
00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:04,000
Speaker 1: to the condition around you. Right. So I'm not waiting.

682
00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:07,279
Speaker 1: You know, at fifteen, I wasn't waiting for someone to

683
00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:10,959
Speaker 1: give me permission to do this work. I didn't need

684
00:44:11,160 --> 00:44:14,799
Speaker 1: I know, I didn't need someone to to give me

685
00:44:14,920 --> 00:44:20,399
Speaker 1: permission to be a presence for peace and justice. We

686
00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:24,400
Speaker 1: what I mean by that is waiting, um, waiting for

687
00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:28,600
Speaker 1: someone else to to do that. Um. Ella Baker says,

688
00:44:28,640 --> 00:44:33,960
Speaker 1: you know strong, um, you know, strong communities um to paraphrase,

689
00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:37,560
Speaker 1: in some ways don't need strong leaders because we're all leaders.

690
00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:40,880
Speaker 1: So that's been really helpful for me. My whole life

691
00:44:40,920 --> 00:44:43,560
Speaker 1: is to think through not just what I can do,

692
00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:50,040
Speaker 1: but to understand that whatever sphere of influence I have,

693
00:44:50,440 --> 00:44:53,719
Speaker 1: I have a capacity to to do some work, to

694
00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:58,440
Speaker 1: move the needle on peace and justice and do it respectfully,

695
00:44:58,560 --> 00:45:01,600
Speaker 1: and to ask questions, to show up when people ask

696
00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:05,239
Speaker 1: me to. Yeah, I think that's such an important thing

697
00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:08,840
Speaker 1: to to reiterate for anyone who's listening at home. You know.

698
00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:13,000
Speaker 1: You see, now because of the Internet and social media,

699
00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:16,279
Speaker 1: everyone thinks they have to have a platform to make

700
00:45:16,320 --> 00:45:19,680
Speaker 1: a difference. But I think people forget that everyone has

701
00:45:19,719 --> 00:45:22,720
Speaker 1: a platform, and whether you have the ear of five

702
00:45:22,840 --> 00:45:28,120
Speaker 1: people or five hundred, you can affect positive change in

703
00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:33,200
Speaker 1: your community absolutely. And you know, um, you know, I

704
00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:36,279
Speaker 1: often tell people, even in my social media presence or

705
00:45:36,320 --> 00:45:40,440
Speaker 1: when I talk to people, just how do I put this?

706
00:45:40,520 --> 00:45:44,720
Speaker 1: It's our depth that matters more than our breadth. So

707
00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:49,359
Speaker 1: let's say in one day, you have a conversation with

708
00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:54,200
Speaker 1: three people, and that conversation is so deeply transformative for

709
00:45:54,280 --> 00:46:00,680
Speaker 1: both of you. The capacity of change is incredible because

710
00:46:00,800 --> 00:46:08,000
Speaker 1: three people changing their lifestyle, changing their perspective, versus getting

711
00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:11,720
Speaker 1: ten people to click on a petition. I'm just giving

712
00:46:11,719 --> 00:46:13,720
Speaker 1: it an example. I think we need to do both,

713
00:46:14,280 --> 00:46:16,920
Speaker 1: and I think those that do the depth work and

714
00:46:16,960 --> 00:46:18,800
Speaker 1: those that do the breath I think there's some folks

715
00:46:18,800 --> 00:46:21,239
Speaker 1: that are able to do both, and I think we

716
00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:24,640
Speaker 1: all need to. These are just strategies. I think it's

717
00:46:24,640 --> 00:46:29,080
Speaker 1: really important not to confuse strategy with self and if

718
00:46:29,239 --> 00:46:32,759
Speaker 1: I have a if I'm gifted with a platform that

719
00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:36,520
Speaker 1: has great bread how do I use that? And? Um,

720
00:46:36,560 --> 00:46:38,120
Speaker 1: you know, one thing I love about the work you're

721
00:46:38,160 --> 00:46:41,239
Speaker 1: doing with this podcast is, you know, bringing voices that

722
00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:45,080
Speaker 1: may not be known broadly, but I think it's really

723
00:46:45,160 --> 00:46:49,400
Speaker 1: important because if we always run after that breadth or

724
00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:55,240
Speaker 1: that having a wide or large platform, then we forget

725
00:46:55,280 --> 00:46:57,960
Speaker 1: that we want to be transformed by this work too,

726
00:46:58,200 --> 00:47:03,040
Speaker 1: and it becomes a perform ements and that's you know,

727
00:47:03,160 --> 00:47:09,200
Speaker 1: performative work. Ultimately, it loses its soul and it loses

728
00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:12,680
Speaker 1: its moral compass, and that's when you see people who

729
00:47:12,680 --> 00:47:18,520
Speaker 1: are doing um activism work or promoting a cause, and

730
00:47:18,560 --> 00:47:22,680
Speaker 1: in doing so may actually be may actually be causing violence.

731
00:47:23,120 --> 00:47:27,680
Speaker 1: UM not physically, but you know, drowning out voices that

732
00:47:27,719 --> 00:47:31,000
Speaker 1: are deeply affected by the issue or you know. So

733
00:47:31,040 --> 00:47:33,319
Speaker 1: we have to be careful when I think that you

734
00:47:33,560 --> 00:47:35,720
Speaker 1: thank you for kind of honing in on that, because

735
00:47:36,640 --> 00:47:40,160
Speaker 1: while we can be passionate and think about what we

736
00:47:40,200 --> 00:47:44,520
Speaker 1: want to do in the world, if we go in um,

737
00:47:44,560 --> 00:47:46,759
Speaker 1: you know, if we go in like what is it

738
00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:48,759
Speaker 1: a bull in a glass shop? You know, you could

739
00:47:48,800 --> 00:47:52,279
Speaker 1: actually make things worse for people who actually are the

740
00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:54,759
Speaker 1: ones that have to deal with the consequences of the

741
00:47:54,840 --> 00:47:57,560
Speaker 1: reality that you're trying to work to better. So I

742
00:47:57,600 --> 00:48:01,640
Speaker 1: think it's really important to be in partnership and just

743
00:48:01,680 --> 00:48:04,960
Speaker 1: to remember that this is a strategy and when you know,

744
00:48:05,000 --> 00:48:07,520
Speaker 1: maybe ask the question, am I the most effective person?

745
00:48:07,600 --> 00:48:10,359
Speaker 1: And if I'm not, let me step aside and give

746
00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:14,240
Speaker 1: the mic to someone else or for those that don't

747
00:48:14,280 --> 00:48:16,520
Speaker 1: have the mic, and I don't need to do the speaking,

748
00:48:16,560 --> 00:48:20,160
Speaker 1: but I can hand the mic over mm hmm, help

749
00:48:20,239 --> 00:48:25,640
Speaker 1: the helpers. Yeah, absolutely, Yeah. Can you explain when when

750
00:48:25,680 --> 00:48:29,719
Speaker 1: we're talking about peacemaking and strategy, how to show up

751
00:48:29,719 --> 00:48:33,400
Speaker 1: in community for for listeners who may not know exactly

752
00:48:33,440 --> 00:48:37,400
Speaker 1: what it is you do. I realized we should probably

753
00:48:37,920 --> 00:48:40,279
Speaker 1: run through the specifics because I'm sure there's some people

754
00:48:40,280 --> 00:48:42,040
Speaker 1: at home where like this is very cool, But what

755
00:48:42,080 --> 00:48:47,640
Speaker 1: does it mean? Right right? Um So, I mean it's

756
00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:52,319
Speaker 1: it's on you know, it's also um it doesn't it

757
00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:53,920
Speaker 1: doesn't seem like it. But yeah, I have been doing

758
00:48:53,920 --> 00:48:56,920
Speaker 1: the work for twenty years. Um So, I think it's

759
00:48:56,960 --> 00:49:00,760
Speaker 1: on multiple levels. One of them is encourageing or bringing

760
00:49:00,800 --> 00:49:07,040
Speaker 1: communities together across difference, difference of religion, difference of background,

761
00:49:07,200 --> 00:49:09,920
Speaker 1: and to be able to encounter and understand and learn

762
00:49:09,960 --> 00:49:13,719
Speaker 1: about each other. Um. You know, we know that unfortunately

763
00:49:13,760 --> 00:49:17,920
Speaker 1: every election cycle, for instance, hatred um about against Muslims

764
00:49:17,960 --> 00:49:22,640
Speaker 1: goes up. We know that, um, amongst religious groups, Jews

765
00:49:23,480 --> 00:49:26,160
Speaker 1: are the most targeted in the United States. Anti Semitic

766
00:49:26,200 --> 00:49:30,279
Speaker 1: hate crimes are actually usually amongst the highest. We know

767
00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:34,520
Speaker 1: that amongst racists hate crimes, African Americans are the most targeted.

768
00:49:35,000 --> 00:49:42,279
Speaker 1: So part of the work is developing relationships and community encounters,

769
00:49:42,320 --> 00:49:47,480
Speaker 1: for instance, inter faith encounters where people spend time learning

770
00:49:47,520 --> 00:49:50,600
Speaker 1: about each other, and I've seen transformations in that work.

771
00:49:50,880 --> 00:49:54,840
Speaker 1: I have students. I had a student that was trembling

772
00:49:54,880 --> 00:49:59,479
Speaker 1: after the class that I taught this winter, who said

773
00:49:59,520 --> 00:50:03,759
Speaker 1: that she had come in with a real hatred against Muslims,

774
00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:09,279
Speaker 1: like a palpable, violent hatred against Muslims, and by this

775
00:50:09,400 --> 00:50:15,160
Speaker 1: exposure she was able to transform her perspective and once

776
00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:18,480
Speaker 1: she realizes her perspective was never based on actually meeting

777
00:50:18,480 --> 00:50:20,600
Speaker 1: a Muslim, but it was based in the media. It

778
00:50:20,640 --> 00:50:25,080
Speaker 1: was based on, you know, whatever that image was. So

779
00:50:25,200 --> 00:50:27,880
Speaker 1: the work is that's one layer of work, is is

780
00:50:27,920 --> 00:50:32,320
Speaker 1: bringing together communities UM. Another layer of works. I actually

781
00:50:32,320 --> 00:50:38,239
Speaker 1: go into conflicts where violence has happened UM and bring

782
00:50:38,320 --> 00:50:44,560
Speaker 1: together parties through a restorative justice process to address conflicts,

783
00:50:44,800 --> 00:50:50,520
Speaker 1: then address harm and address issues. And that's who I've

784
00:50:50,560 --> 00:50:52,839
Speaker 1: intersected a lot with the criminal justice system. Is trying

785
00:50:52,880 --> 00:50:55,400
Speaker 1: to trying to help us move towards a place where

786
00:50:55,960 --> 00:51:02,400
Speaker 1: we're not using incarceration and violent means of of incarcerating

787
00:51:02,480 --> 00:51:05,320
Speaker 1: large swaths of communities. And have done restorative justice for

788
00:51:05,360 --> 00:51:08,720
Speaker 1: almost twenty years now with different indifferent scenarios and cases.

789
00:51:08,760 --> 00:51:12,319
Speaker 1: So I'll actually go in and facilitate a process. UM.

790
00:51:12,360 --> 00:51:14,960
Speaker 1: I can give you an example my first case, and

791
00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:17,799
Speaker 1: this really illuminated. For those that don't know, I also

792
00:51:17,840 --> 00:51:20,440
Speaker 1: have a law degree and I'm a lawyer. UM. The

793
00:51:20,480 --> 00:51:23,520
Speaker 1: first case I did, almost probably sixteen years ago, I

794
00:51:23,560 --> 00:51:25,279
Speaker 1: walked into a room and there was a nine year

795
00:51:25,320 --> 00:51:28,760
Speaker 1: old boy sitting at a table. He was charged by

796
00:51:28,880 --> 00:51:33,359
Speaker 1: He was being charged for theft. So this nine year

797
00:51:33,360 --> 00:51:37,080
Speaker 1: old boy had taken some money from the ice cream

798
00:51:37,120 --> 00:51:41,600
Speaker 1: truck driver who came to his neighborhood every week. So

799
00:51:41,640 --> 00:51:46,640
Speaker 1: this case ends up in the criminal justice system, and UM,

800
00:51:46,760 --> 00:51:50,600
Speaker 1: thankfully there was a program that diverted it. And UM,

801
00:51:50,640 --> 00:51:53,279
Speaker 1: I sat there with the ice cream truck driver and

802
00:51:53,320 --> 00:51:56,640
Speaker 1: a nine year old boy and instead of him getting

803
00:51:56,719 --> 00:51:59,279
Speaker 1: charged in the juvenile justice system, they worked out a

804
00:51:59,320 --> 00:52:03,319
Speaker 1: solution where she understood and he told her that, you know,

805
00:52:03,360 --> 00:52:06,640
Speaker 1: I was hungry. I didn't get food that week and

806
00:52:06,920 --> 00:52:09,920
Speaker 1: I needed to buy some lunch the next day. And

807
00:52:09,960 --> 00:52:11,920
Speaker 1: she told him, you know, I know you, and I

808
00:52:11,960 --> 00:52:15,319
Speaker 1: trust you and I like you, and UM, why don't

809
00:52:15,400 --> 00:52:20,319
Speaker 1: you come in UH volunteer and learn business, UM, and

810
00:52:20,360 --> 00:52:23,440
Speaker 1: how to sell ice cream and maybe that's something you

811
00:52:23,440 --> 00:52:26,800
Speaker 1: can use down the line. So instead of this annual

812
00:52:26,880 --> 00:52:30,359
Speaker 1: boy ending up in the criminal justice system, UM, and

813
00:52:30,400 --> 00:52:33,040
Speaker 1: maybe in other systems that would have you know, um,

814
00:52:33,280 --> 00:52:36,640
Speaker 1: really affected him for the rest of his life. Here's

815
00:52:36,680 --> 00:52:39,160
Speaker 1: this solution that he and the ice cream truck driver

816
00:52:39,320 --> 00:52:42,880
Speaker 1: came up with and they are friends and they continued

817
00:52:42,960 --> 00:52:46,480
Speaker 1: that friendship, and you know, I was just really struck

818
00:52:46,520 --> 00:52:49,440
Speaker 1: with there is you know, there is there is another

819
00:52:49,560 --> 00:52:55,560
Speaker 1: way to resolve conflicts when we empower people to have

820
00:52:55,600 --> 00:52:59,480
Speaker 1: a relationship. And I don't know that really because the

821
00:52:59,520 --> 00:53:01,480
Speaker 1: reason I remember that as he was so young that

822
00:53:01,560 --> 00:53:05,120
Speaker 1: his feet couldn't even touch the ground in the chair.

823
00:53:05,320 --> 00:53:07,600
Speaker 1: And this is going to be you know, this boy

824
00:53:07,640 --> 00:53:09,759
Speaker 1: who's hungry that day, that did what any of us

825
00:53:09,800 --> 00:53:13,040
Speaker 1: would have done as a nine year old kid. You know,

826
00:53:13,280 --> 00:53:16,440
Speaker 1: he's getting targeted by the system. And why don't we

827
00:53:16,520 --> 00:53:21,040
Speaker 1: have more opportunities and programs where we're able to let

828
00:53:21,160 --> 00:53:26,600
Speaker 1: communities negotiate, talk and build solutions that are based on

829
00:53:26,680 --> 00:53:31,040
Speaker 1: relationships and peaceful outcomes. And to me, that's true justice,

830
00:53:31,120 --> 00:53:35,359
Speaker 1: Like true justice was served in that scenario. Um, he

831
00:53:35,440 --> 00:53:38,759
Speaker 1: learned something, he built a relationship, and the bigger injustices.

832
00:53:39,280 --> 00:53:41,520
Speaker 1: Why do we live in a society where a nine

833
00:53:41,560 --> 00:53:46,000
Speaker 1: year old isn't able to have you know, three square

834
00:53:46,040 --> 00:53:49,080
Speaker 1: meals a day? Who knows UM the level of racism

835
00:53:49,160 --> 00:53:53,560
Speaker 1: and economic injustice that his family face. I just wanted

836
00:53:53,600 --> 00:53:55,520
Speaker 1: to point that out. So those are some of the

837
00:53:55,520 --> 00:53:59,560
Speaker 1: examples of work as thinking through. Are there alternate ways

838
00:53:59,600 --> 00:54:04,040
Speaker 1: where people can be empowered to negotiate to have a

839
00:54:04,080 --> 00:54:09,920
Speaker 1: relationship instead of using means of violence, whether that violence

840
00:54:10,239 --> 00:54:14,319
Speaker 1: actual violence, or a system that that will create long

841
00:54:14,440 --> 00:54:18,920
Speaker 1: term generational violence against UH an individual man as we

842
00:54:18,960 --> 00:54:22,560
Speaker 1: know over time, against a community. So I teach classes

843
00:54:22,560 --> 00:54:24,440
Speaker 1: and all these things, and I trained students to do

844
00:54:24,480 --> 00:54:29,000
Speaker 1: all this work. So it's so cool as a teacher

845
00:54:29,040 --> 00:54:32,719
Speaker 1: for people who are listening, who are inspired as I am.

846
00:54:33,320 --> 00:54:37,080
Speaker 1: What would be some resources that you would suggest to

847
00:54:37,200 --> 00:54:39,720
Speaker 1: begin learning this work? You know, the kinds of stuff

848
00:54:39,760 --> 00:54:42,880
Speaker 1: you were studying at university, the kinds of stuff that

849
00:54:42,960 --> 00:54:45,600
Speaker 1: you teach your students. Now, where where do you tell

850
00:54:45,600 --> 00:54:50,120
Speaker 1: people to begin? You know? UM? In most communities there

851
00:54:50,320 --> 00:54:58,080
Speaker 1: is often a conflict resolution or mediation center. UM. Another

852
00:54:58,160 --> 00:55:00,600
Speaker 1: way that I did this work for years was in

853
00:55:00,760 --> 00:55:05,920
Speaker 1: schools UM making sure for instance, UM. One of the

854
00:55:05,960 --> 00:55:08,239
Speaker 1: ways we've been able. I worked a lot with high

855
00:55:08,280 --> 00:55:12,520
Speaker 1: schools and middle schools UM. More and more schools unfortunately

856
00:55:12,640 --> 00:55:17,000
Speaker 1: have cops instead of counselors, so advocating certainly for counselors,

857
00:55:17,040 --> 00:55:21,160
Speaker 1: but also trying to build systems where our children are

858
00:55:21,200 --> 00:55:23,719
Speaker 1: going to school. UM. One of the things that I've

859
00:55:23,719 --> 00:55:26,760
Speaker 1: done a lot of is pure mediation and restorative justice,

860
00:55:26,800 --> 00:55:30,040
Speaker 1: where we teach middle school and high school students how

861
00:55:30,040 --> 00:55:33,840
Speaker 1: to resolve conflicts, so that UM, the principle will refer

862
00:55:34,040 --> 00:55:39,480
Speaker 1: to these restorative justice or peace circles UM conflicts that

863
00:55:39,520 --> 00:55:42,080
Speaker 1: they have actually even did this with university, so instead

864
00:55:42,080 --> 00:55:45,120
Speaker 1: of going through the disciplinary system, the students sit down

865
00:55:45,160 --> 00:55:48,759
Speaker 1: and talk through the conflict. So you know, there may

866
00:55:48,800 --> 00:55:52,160
Speaker 1: be a center UM in your local community that kind

867
00:55:52,200 --> 00:55:55,439
Speaker 1: of the words you would look for would be conflict resolution, peacemaking,

868
00:55:56,200 --> 00:56:01,880
Speaker 1: restorative justice, transformative justice. These are all principles that you

869
00:56:01,960 --> 00:56:05,080
Speaker 1: can read about, that you can learn about UM, and

870
00:56:05,120 --> 00:56:08,480
Speaker 1: if you're not connected to a school, there's there are

871
00:56:08,480 --> 00:56:11,759
Speaker 1: many churches doing this work UM. More and more UM

872
00:56:12,120 --> 00:56:18,600
Speaker 1: communities are recognizing that instead of resolving conflicts through violence,

873
00:56:19,360 --> 00:56:22,759
Speaker 1: we need to be able to animate all of us

874
00:56:22,800 --> 00:56:28,239
Speaker 1: to be actors in our own destiny as peacemakers. I

875
00:56:28,360 --> 00:56:39,600
Speaker 1: love that there's something that I would like to read

876
00:56:39,680 --> 00:56:42,280
Speaker 1: to the listeners. You wrote an article that was published

877
00:56:42,280 --> 00:56:47,239
Speaker 1: earlier this year, which applies so much of what we're

878
00:56:47,239 --> 00:56:50,080
Speaker 1: talking about when when we talk about peacemaking and when

879
00:56:50,080 --> 00:56:55,480
Speaker 1: we talk about violence that can be put onto a community,

880
00:56:55,560 --> 00:57:00,360
Speaker 1: we're looking at a lot of violence coming to so

881
00:57:00,440 --> 00:57:03,480
Speaker 1: many of us in the country from from the highest level,

882
00:57:03,560 --> 00:57:07,160
Speaker 1: from from the administration, and when we look at to

883
00:57:07,280 --> 00:57:13,440
Speaker 1: your point, affected communities, communities of color, refugees. You wrote

884
00:57:13,440 --> 00:57:15,680
Speaker 1: this article that's so beautiful, and I just if you

885
00:57:15,680 --> 00:57:17,840
Speaker 1: wouldn't mind, I'd like to read a piece of it.

886
00:57:17,920 --> 00:57:22,720
Speaker 1: You said, for many, the scriptural obligation to care for

887
00:57:22,760 --> 00:57:25,920
Speaker 1: the stranger is a core religious belief. By having this

888
00:57:26,000 --> 00:57:30,320
Speaker 1: capacity for service undercut in many ways, the faithful across

889
00:57:30,400 --> 00:57:34,360
Speaker 1: the spectrum, from conservative to progressive, are unable to fulfill

890
00:57:34,440 --> 00:57:39,280
Speaker 1: their religious obligations for care. The administration's refusal to engage

891
00:57:39,360 --> 00:57:42,640
Speaker 1: the many faith based leaders and organizations who called for more,

892
00:57:43,240 --> 00:57:47,960
Speaker 1: not less, openness to welcoming refugees to cries it's alleged

893
00:57:47,960 --> 00:57:55,480
Speaker 1: commitment to religious freedom. That's such an interesting argument. Deposit

894
00:57:55,720 --> 00:57:59,920
Speaker 1: that that for so many people, what is being politicized

895
00:58:00,160 --> 00:58:02,960
Speaker 1: is an affront to faith and to so many faiths.

896
00:58:03,440 --> 00:58:05,800
Speaker 1: To do this idea that we're meant to care for

897
00:58:05,880 --> 00:58:11,480
Speaker 1: refugees that were meant to love our neighbors. How as

898
00:58:11,520 --> 00:58:19,080
Speaker 1: a peacemaker do you stretch the expanse between faith and politics. Yeah,

899
00:58:19,240 --> 00:58:23,600
Speaker 1: you know, and I remember writing that piece because we

900
00:58:23,600 --> 00:58:28,800
Speaker 1: we're dealing with the reality that this administration has essentially

901
00:58:28,880 --> 00:58:35,320
Speaker 1: dismantled the refugee and the asylum seeking UM asylum seeking process.

902
00:58:35,480 --> 00:58:39,000
Speaker 1: So you know, I just want to remind everyone that

903
00:58:39,080 --> 00:58:42,680
Speaker 1: seeking asylum is not a crime. Being a refugee not

904
00:58:42,800 --> 00:58:47,760
Speaker 1: a crime. Crossing the border to seek asylum UM is

905
00:58:47,760 --> 00:58:51,240
Speaker 1: not a crime. UM. And I went about a year

906
00:58:51,280 --> 00:58:56,440
Speaker 1: ago to Tijuana with and now it's so poignant. I

907
00:58:56,440 --> 00:58:59,840
Speaker 1: went with a group of nurses who are volunteering their

908
00:59:00,040 --> 00:59:05,960
Speaker 1: high and other faith leaders, Jewish leaders, Catholic leaders, UM,

909
00:59:06,000 --> 00:59:08,560
Speaker 1: and we went across the border to talk to refugees

910
00:59:08,600 --> 00:59:14,000
Speaker 1: in Tijuana to offer UM counseling and the nurses UM offered,

911
00:59:14,720 --> 00:59:20,600
Speaker 1: healthcare workers offered volunteer screening and UM. You know, I

912
00:59:20,640 --> 00:59:23,640
Speaker 1: was thinking, these are the people that UM. At that time,

913
00:59:23,680 --> 00:59:27,760
Speaker 1: the language that this administration used was the language you

914
00:59:27,920 --> 00:59:33,080
Speaker 1: used for insects, hordes of people. UM. It was incredibly

915
00:59:33,120 --> 00:59:38,360
Speaker 1: dehumanizing language. And I remember going to an encampment, people

916
00:59:38,360 --> 00:59:42,280
Speaker 1: are literally living in intense and I walked up to

917
00:59:42,280 --> 00:59:44,400
Speaker 1: this man. My Spanish is not great, but what I

918
00:59:44,440 --> 00:59:50,240
Speaker 1: found is language of the heart transcends understanding. And I

919
00:59:50,280 --> 00:59:52,400
Speaker 1: walked up to this man who was holding a beautiful

920
00:59:52,760 --> 00:59:56,240
Speaker 1: nine year old girl, sorry nine month algirl. So he's

921
00:59:56,240 --> 00:59:58,160
Speaker 1: standing there holding this nine month old girl, and I

922
00:59:58,200 --> 01:00:00,920
Speaker 1: have two children on my own. And I walked up

923
01:00:00,920 --> 01:00:03,680
Speaker 1: to him and I said, sir, you know, um, is

924
01:00:03,680 --> 01:00:06,280
Speaker 1: this your daughter? And he said, no, this is not

925
01:00:06,400 --> 01:00:12,200
Speaker 1: my daughter, and this is my niece. I along with um.

926
01:00:12,320 --> 01:00:15,920
Speaker 1: My wife fled in the middle of the night because

927
01:00:16,440 --> 01:00:19,440
Speaker 1: her father was killed and we knew that we were

928
01:00:19,480 --> 01:00:22,120
Speaker 1: going to be targeted the next day. And he said,

929
01:00:22,120 --> 01:00:27,320
Speaker 1: I've walked for days with her holding her, and UM.

930
01:00:27,360 --> 01:00:29,880
Speaker 1: It just struck me that these you know, this man

931
01:00:30,280 --> 01:00:34,720
Speaker 1: is fleeing violence, trying to save a child that's not his,

932
01:00:35,840 --> 01:00:42,480
Speaker 1: and living in this encampment and across the border is

933
01:00:42,520 --> 01:00:46,960
Speaker 1: a country with incredible wealth that is portraying him as

934
01:00:46,960 --> 01:00:51,680
Speaker 1: a threat, that's portraying him as a violent person, and

935
01:00:51,720 --> 01:00:54,120
Speaker 1: all he really wants is what any of us would

936
01:00:54,160 --> 01:00:58,080
Speaker 1: want in that situation, And that to me was the

937
01:00:58,120 --> 01:01:04,400
Speaker 1: heart of a spiritual um and religious obligation that all

938
01:01:04,440 --> 01:01:07,240
Speaker 1: of our religious traditions, in the Muslim tradition, someone who's

939
01:01:07,280 --> 01:01:11,760
Speaker 1: fleeing violence, we're meant to open our doors to them. Um.

940
01:01:11,800 --> 01:01:15,080
Speaker 1: In the Jewish tradition, in the Christian tradition, in the

941
01:01:15,080 --> 01:01:18,320
Speaker 1: Buddhist tradition, all of these. And you know this idea

942
01:01:18,440 --> 01:01:23,960
Speaker 1: of you know, we as people of faith, we're the

943
01:01:23,960 --> 01:01:26,320
Speaker 1: ones who don't say, well, how much money do you make?

944
01:01:26,920 --> 01:01:31,960
Speaker 1: What are you going to contribute to this society financially? Um?

945
01:01:32,000 --> 01:01:36,080
Speaker 1: You know, do you serve our needs? We say your

946
01:01:36,120 --> 01:01:40,240
Speaker 1: story is one where you're carrying a child fleeing imminent

947
01:01:40,400 --> 01:01:43,000
Speaker 1: death and you're here to you know, that's a that's

948
01:01:43,000 --> 01:01:47,240
Speaker 1: a spiritual obligation on me to open my door because

949
01:01:47,760 --> 01:01:51,959
Speaker 1: it's not scarcity, it's actually abundance. UM. And I hope

950
01:01:52,000 --> 01:01:56,520
Speaker 1: that that's one thing UM. If there's UM. I don't

951
01:01:56,560 --> 01:01:59,880
Speaker 1: ever believe that something like the virus should ever be

952
01:02:00,120 --> 01:02:03,800
Speaker 1: blamed on anyone and its cause. But talk about it

953
01:02:03,880 --> 01:02:06,720
Speaker 1: spiritually is not to talk about it why it happened,

954
01:02:07,720 --> 01:02:09,960
Speaker 1: or what God meant about it. But this to talk

955
01:02:09,960 --> 01:02:11,880
Speaker 1: about it spiritually is to say, what is it our

956
01:02:11,920 --> 01:02:15,800
Speaker 1: spiritual response, what is our collective response? And I hope

957
01:02:15,840 --> 01:02:19,280
Speaker 1: that what we learned from it is that in the end,

958
01:02:19,680 --> 01:02:24,280
Speaker 1: we can't just take care of our own self, because

959
01:02:24,600 --> 01:02:28,360
Speaker 1: this has shown us that if one of us suffers,

960
01:02:28,360 --> 01:02:32,680
Speaker 1: in the end, all of us will suffer. And you know,

961
01:02:32,840 --> 01:02:36,280
Speaker 1: I I think about that with with refugees. Our numbers

962
01:02:36,520 --> 01:02:42,400
Speaker 1: are have gone down precipitously organizations, and most of them

963
01:02:42,680 --> 01:02:45,600
Speaker 1: are faith based, and actually most of them are Christian

964
01:02:45,680 --> 01:02:52,240
Speaker 1: based organizations. Again, it was many many conservative Christian community

965
01:02:52,400 --> 01:02:57,240
Speaker 1: stood up against the closing of our refugee programs and

966
01:02:57,280 --> 01:03:01,439
Speaker 1: our numbers doing so, you know, that's why you when

967
01:03:01,440 --> 01:03:03,240
Speaker 1: I travel and I speak around the country. I go

968
01:03:03,280 --> 01:03:06,360
Speaker 1: to Omaha, Nebraska and there's a Syrian community. I go

969
01:03:06,560 --> 01:03:11,080
Speaker 1: to speak in Maine and there's a Somali community. You know. Um,

970
01:03:11,080 --> 01:03:14,440
Speaker 1: it was actually often Christian churches and communities that played

971
01:03:14,440 --> 01:03:18,880
Speaker 1: a major role in resettlement. So so I just you know,

972
01:03:19,000 --> 01:03:21,640
Speaker 1: I think I think that that was part of the

973
01:03:21,760 --> 01:03:26,080
Speaker 1: religious freedom of those folks was to say, I'm obligated

974
01:03:26,120 --> 01:03:30,920
Speaker 1: to serve the stranger. I'm obligated to serve um people

975
01:03:30,920 --> 01:03:35,320
Speaker 1: who are fleeing violence. I'm obligated to serve people who

976
01:03:35,400 --> 01:03:39,080
Speaker 1: are dealing with extreme hunger. And if I have something,

977
01:03:39,280 --> 01:03:43,120
Speaker 1: the spiritual response is not scarcity. The spiritual responses if

978
01:03:43,160 --> 01:03:46,880
Speaker 1: I give more will be provided because if I hoard

979
01:03:47,000 --> 01:03:51,960
Speaker 1: it to myself, then ultimately those resources disappear for far

980
01:03:52,040 --> 01:03:55,800
Speaker 1: more than just myself, and in the end I'll suffer,

981
01:03:55,920 --> 01:03:57,520
Speaker 1: you know. I think I think that's part of it.

982
01:03:57,600 --> 01:04:01,080
Speaker 1: Is we have to begin to to move away from

983
01:04:01,080 --> 01:04:04,880
Speaker 1: this notion that we're islands. And I think this, I

984
01:04:04,880 --> 01:04:08,160
Speaker 1: think we're in We're in a cultural and national and

985
01:04:08,320 --> 01:04:14,040
Speaker 1: spiritual moment where we can have a response that is

986
01:04:14,080 --> 01:04:17,480
Speaker 1: going to build an armor around us, or we can

987
01:04:17,520 --> 01:04:21,520
Speaker 1: be open and say, um, what we learned was that

988
01:04:21,720 --> 01:04:24,760
Speaker 1: we didn't take care of each other enough. We didn't

989
01:04:25,080 --> 01:04:30,080
Speaker 1: um take care of the frontline workers. We didn't realize

990
01:04:30,440 --> 01:04:33,720
Speaker 1: that those that are making less than fifteen dollars an hour,

991
01:04:33,880 --> 01:04:37,680
Speaker 1: the ones that are keeping everyone else alive but themselves,

992
01:04:37,720 --> 01:04:39,560
Speaker 1: are not being protected. I mean that, to me is

993
01:04:39,600 --> 01:04:43,400
Speaker 1: a spiritual and moral question. And I think I'm clear

994
01:04:43,480 --> 01:04:47,080
Speaker 1: that it's not the degrees, it's not the it's not

995
01:04:47,200 --> 01:04:51,280
Speaker 1: the removal from society that is going to protect you.

996
01:04:51,840 --> 01:04:55,800
Speaker 1: What we've learned is it's it's it's it's in reality. Um,

997
01:04:56,200 --> 01:05:00,040
Speaker 1: the people that are keeping our society going are the

998
01:05:00,120 --> 01:05:02,440
Speaker 1: ones that we need to think through. Are we really

999
01:05:03,680 --> 01:05:06,560
Speaker 1: you know, are we really actually supporting them? So those

1000
01:05:06,600 --> 01:05:09,760
Speaker 1: are you know, I feel like there's just there's a

1001
01:05:09,840 --> 01:05:12,720
Speaker 1: lot too more we could talk about and it I

1002
01:05:12,760 --> 01:05:16,040
Speaker 1: do think that there is a recognition and a shift. Um.

1003
01:05:16,960 --> 01:05:20,400
Speaker 1: And you know, if some people are just waking up

1004
01:05:20,440 --> 01:05:22,680
Speaker 1: to this that I don't think that you know, we

1005
01:05:22,760 --> 01:05:24,920
Speaker 1: can't panalyze people that are just waking up to some

1006
01:05:25,000 --> 01:05:28,600
Speaker 1: of these issues, um, And that takes patience and that

1007
01:05:28,720 --> 01:05:31,400
Speaker 1: everyone has a role. So I really, I really hope

1008
01:05:31,400 --> 01:05:34,560
Speaker 1: that that's the message that comes across is everyone has

1009
01:05:34,600 --> 01:05:38,120
Speaker 1: a role, whether you're religious, whether you're not, whether you're confortative,

1010
01:05:38,200 --> 01:05:43,480
Speaker 1: whether you're progressive. That for me, there is a capacity

1011
01:05:43,560 --> 01:05:46,200
Speaker 1: for us to collectively transform in a way that is

1012
01:05:46,240 --> 01:05:50,439
Speaker 1: authentic to each of us. Why do you think when

1013
01:05:50,440 --> 01:05:54,000
Speaker 1: we talk about religion and the way that faith and

1014
01:05:54,120 --> 01:05:58,560
Speaker 1: especially interfaith communities can can really stand for one another.

1015
01:05:58,640 --> 01:06:01,480
Speaker 1: Why do you think that religion is still such a

1016
01:06:01,560 --> 01:06:06,960
Speaker 1: divisive topic for people in this country because you you

1017
01:06:07,000 --> 01:06:10,000
Speaker 1: discuss it in a way that's so uniting, so much

1018
01:06:10,000 --> 01:06:13,400
Speaker 1: of what you discuss is in these ways that really

1019
01:06:13,400 --> 01:06:17,920
Speaker 1: bring unity to the forefront. Yet for some reason we

1020
01:06:18,000 --> 01:06:23,000
Speaker 1: see so much division around religion. Well, I think because

1021
01:06:23,120 --> 01:06:27,200
Speaker 1: religion is so deeply core to who people are that

1022
01:06:27,240 --> 01:06:32,680
Speaker 1: there is um. It is the thing that's relied upon

1023
01:06:32,840 --> 01:06:35,480
Speaker 1: to create division. So I don't think it exists and

1024
01:06:36,000 --> 01:06:40,080
Speaker 1: naturally exists. I think when we I often talk about

1025
01:06:40,160 --> 01:06:44,320
Speaker 1: the commodifying or the weaponizing of hate. So when election

1026
01:06:44,400 --> 01:06:48,680
Speaker 1: cycles begin, we know when the presidential election cycle goes up,

1027
01:06:50,000 --> 01:06:53,959
Speaker 1: the the hate crimes against Muslims go up, because it's

1028
01:06:54,040 --> 01:06:59,080
Speaker 1: about scapegoating. It's about um. It's not just religion and politics.

1029
01:06:59,080 --> 01:07:02,800
Speaker 1: That's the problem. It's the it's the taking on and

1030
01:07:02,880 --> 01:07:08,000
Speaker 1: scapegoating and creating mechanisms where we think that um, where

1031
01:07:08,000 --> 01:07:12,320
Speaker 1: we think that hate is going to benefit a political aim.

1032
01:07:12,480 --> 01:07:14,400
Speaker 1: And I think we have to really ask that question,

1033
01:07:14,520 --> 01:07:17,640
Speaker 1: you know, one of the fundamental questions whenever. So there

1034
01:07:17,640 --> 01:07:19,680
Speaker 1: are three questions I ask in every conflict I go

1035
01:07:19,800 --> 01:07:24,440
Speaker 1: to to work well on. The first is what is

1036
01:07:24,480 --> 01:07:29,880
Speaker 1: sacred to you? The second is who do you consider human?

1037
01:07:32,440 --> 01:07:35,360
Speaker 1: And because of what I've found is we have all

1038
01:07:35,440 --> 01:07:38,000
Speaker 1: of us have to work on that category of who

1039
01:07:38,120 --> 01:07:41,800
Speaker 1: is in human and many conflicts are based on not

1040
01:07:41,960 --> 01:07:46,240
Speaker 1: seeing everyone in that category of human. And I've added

1041
01:07:46,240 --> 01:07:48,920
Speaker 1: a third in the last three years, is am I

1042
01:07:48,960 --> 01:07:54,800
Speaker 1: in your future? And that has been extremely helpful from me.

1043
01:07:55,240 --> 01:07:56,840
Speaker 1: And when I say that, I don't mean like am

1044
01:07:56,880 --> 01:07:59,600
Speaker 1: I individually? But do you see the community that you're

1045
01:07:59,640 --> 01:08:02,600
Speaker 1: in inflict? Are they part of the future that you see?

1046
01:08:03,560 --> 01:08:08,400
Speaker 1: And what happens when religion is used and weaponized is

1047
01:08:09,240 --> 01:08:14,840
Speaker 1: people are building an exclusive future. They're building future that

1048
01:08:15,000 --> 01:08:20,880
Speaker 1: isn't that isn't you know, um, they're thinking of the future,

1049
01:08:20,960 --> 01:08:25,320
Speaker 1: and that's where that scarcity of resources, scarcity of of

1050
01:08:25,320 --> 01:08:29,680
Speaker 1: of a capacity to embrace difference, and that's where supremacy

1051
01:08:29,760 --> 01:08:32,360
Speaker 1: comes up. That you know, I want my future to

1052
01:08:32,560 --> 01:08:35,559
Speaker 1: only have a certain kind of person, and that is

1053
01:08:35,600 --> 01:08:41,559
Speaker 1: a supremacist future, and it can get weaponized utilizing religion

1054
01:08:42,200 --> 01:08:45,360
Speaker 1: and then often tying it to racism. So I just

1055
01:08:45,400 --> 01:08:47,840
Speaker 1: want to point that out, Like I think, in some

1056
01:08:47,920 --> 01:08:52,640
Speaker 1: ways the future we see is a good indicator of

1057
01:08:52,720 --> 01:08:55,400
Speaker 1: and I don't mean future afterlife. That's what I think

1058
01:08:55,400 --> 01:08:58,320
Speaker 1: has been the problem people think about religion. They say, well,

1059
01:08:58,360 --> 01:08:59,880
Speaker 1: do you think I'm going to go to hell or heaven?

1060
01:09:00,040 --> 01:09:02,000
Speaker 1: And I've told my students, you know what, if you

1061
01:09:02,040 --> 01:09:04,680
Speaker 1: can work with someone who you think both of you

1062
01:09:04,880 --> 01:09:06,439
Speaker 1: are not sure if you're both going to go to

1063
01:09:06,479 --> 01:09:09,639
Speaker 1: heaven or accept each other in heaven, maybe you even

1064
01:09:09,640 --> 01:09:12,839
Speaker 1: think the opposite, but you can work for a heavenly

1065
01:09:12,880 --> 01:09:15,960
Speaker 1: presence on this earth, then that means you're you're really

1066
01:09:16,000 --> 01:09:19,400
Speaker 1: doing the good work. It's not about the future after

1067
01:09:19,439 --> 01:09:23,320
Speaker 1: we die. It's about the future of of this, of

1068
01:09:23,400 --> 01:09:27,320
Speaker 1: one's own life and one's own children. And that's action

1069
01:09:27,439 --> 01:09:29,800
Speaker 1: that we really have to ask because it brings up

1070
01:09:30,200 --> 01:09:34,439
Speaker 1: whether we have an exclusive, supremacist future that doesn't include

1071
01:09:34,479 --> 01:09:38,840
Speaker 1: people that don't look and think like me. And unfortunately,

1072
01:09:40,240 --> 01:09:44,040
Speaker 1: that's where I think religion has been weaponized, is to

1073
01:09:44,320 --> 01:09:47,360
Speaker 1: say that you know, um, if you have these people

1074
01:09:47,400 --> 01:09:51,880
Speaker 1: in your future, um, they they are to blame for this,

1075
01:09:52,040 --> 01:09:56,000
Speaker 1: They are to blame for that, without without um, without

1076
01:09:56,040 --> 01:10:00,559
Speaker 1: actually addressing or recognizing that we have problems. So so

1077
01:10:00,600 --> 01:10:02,639
Speaker 1: I think that the division is I don't think there's

1078
01:10:02,640 --> 01:10:06,040
Speaker 1: a natural division between religions. I don't think anyone religion

1079
01:10:06,280 --> 01:10:10,800
Speaker 1: is always peaceful and anyone religion is always violent. I

1080
01:10:10,840 --> 01:10:14,120
Speaker 1: think we all, we all have capacities for peace and

1081
01:10:14,200 --> 01:10:18,519
Speaker 1: we all have capacities for violence and UM. Once we

1082
01:10:18,600 --> 01:10:22,479
Speaker 1: begin to harden our perceptions of each other, it's usually

1083
01:10:22,520 --> 01:10:27,719
Speaker 1: based on this notion of of of trying to trying

1084
01:10:27,760 --> 01:10:34,320
Speaker 1: to weaponize hate UM and us versus them kind of mentality. Yeah,

1085
01:10:34,439 --> 01:10:39,160
Speaker 1: when you think on spaces, you've facilitated conflict resolution because

1086
01:10:39,200 --> 01:10:45,000
Speaker 1: you you've done that for conflicts in schools, communities, environmental controversies,

1087
01:10:45,120 --> 01:10:49,599
Speaker 1: public controversies. You you've worked in so many arenas and

1088
01:10:49,600 --> 01:10:56,000
Speaker 1: and worked to dispel conflict, work to reunify people. This

1089
01:10:56,120 --> 01:10:59,080
Speaker 1: conversation we're having makes me wonder, do you think that

1090
01:10:59,560 --> 01:11:03,000
Speaker 1: some of you're speaking about ties into what the underlying

1091
01:11:03,120 --> 01:11:06,439
Speaker 1: themes are in in all of these conflicts, that that

1092
01:11:06,680 --> 01:11:12,479
Speaker 1: other rising the the questions about future that we may

1093
01:11:12,600 --> 01:11:14,840
Speaker 1: or may not even realize we're answering in the ways

1094
01:11:14,880 --> 01:11:18,320
Speaker 1: that we are. And I think as a core to

1095
01:11:18,360 --> 01:11:21,360
Speaker 1: all of this is the perception that there are not

1096
01:11:21,560 --> 01:11:27,920
Speaker 1: enough resources for us share um UH. And that perception

1097
01:11:28,160 --> 01:11:34,759
Speaker 1: is so UM, it's so dangerous. And that's what happens

1098
01:11:34,840 --> 01:11:41,560
Speaker 1: is once that threat is introduced into UH, into a conflict,

1099
01:11:42,320 --> 01:11:47,479
Speaker 1: it gets further weaponized and UM. And the perception is

1100
01:11:47,800 --> 01:11:50,160
Speaker 1: not just that there isn't enough. But guess what these

1101
01:11:50,160 --> 01:11:52,760
Speaker 1: people are taking it from you. So you can use

1102
01:11:52,840 --> 01:11:57,920
Speaker 1: that trope again amongst multiple conflicts. UM. Right, it's it

1103
01:11:58,040 --> 01:12:01,200
Speaker 1: starts off with O, there isn't enough and we're competing,

1104
01:12:01,280 --> 01:12:04,760
Speaker 1: and then guess what if we allow them to be

1105
01:12:04,800 --> 01:12:08,920
Speaker 1: in this future? Not only UM, not only is there

1106
01:12:08,960 --> 01:12:11,200
Speaker 1: not enough? You know, if you think about refugees or

1107
01:12:11,280 --> 01:12:15,080
Speaker 1: all of these conversations, and unfortunately those are really false

1108
01:12:15,200 --> 01:12:21,960
Speaker 1: narratives UM, because what we see, for instance, is UM,

1109
01:12:22,040 --> 01:12:26,519
Speaker 1: that society is that I mean, research bears out a

1110
01:12:26,600 --> 01:12:33,200
Speaker 1: diverse workforce is a far more productive and imaginative workforce. UM.

1111
01:12:33,439 --> 01:12:41,040
Speaker 1: Societies that have integrated and built diverse UH and come

1112
01:12:41,080 --> 01:12:45,360
Speaker 1: from diverse cultural backgrounds actually are innovative. And you know,

1113
01:12:45,479 --> 01:12:48,519
Speaker 1: so cities in the United States that have opened up

1114
01:12:48,520 --> 01:12:52,560
Speaker 1: to immigrants, some of them are economically far more flourishing.

1115
01:12:53,520 --> 01:12:58,400
Speaker 1: So it's that false narrative about the future. It's not

1116
01:12:58,479 --> 01:13:00,439
Speaker 1: just about and you know, I don't mean just ponomics

1117
01:13:00,520 --> 01:13:03,720
Speaker 1: that everyone thinks about things in economics, but it's this

1118
01:13:03,800 --> 01:13:07,840
Speaker 1: idea of even culture that okay, maybe we don't talk

1119
01:13:07,880 --> 01:13:12,200
Speaker 1: about in terms of resources, but cultural resources. If for instance,

1120
01:13:12,439 --> 01:13:15,600
Speaker 1: we have a diverse country. That means that it's going

1121
01:13:15,640 --> 01:13:18,800
Speaker 1: to erode whatever one way of life that there was.

1122
01:13:19,160 --> 01:13:21,360
Speaker 1: But the reality is there's never been just one way

1123
01:13:21,400 --> 01:13:25,960
Speaker 1: of doing everything right right. That is not lost on me,

1124
01:13:26,280 --> 01:13:29,280
Speaker 1: right exactly. So so I think we have to be

1125
01:13:29,320 --> 01:13:34,320
Speaker 1: really careful about, um, not just how we construct the future,

1126
01:13:34,520 --> 01:13:39,719
Speaker 1: but how we think about the past. UM. And I've

1127
01:13:39,760 --> 01:13:42,640
Speaker 1: been really um. You know, one of the things I

1128
01:13:42,720 --> 01:13:45,800
Speaker 1: do in my work, UM, I call it real mythologizing.

1129
01:13:46,920 --> 01:13:49,840
Speaker 1: So I work with communities around the world. I was

1130
01:13:49,840 --> 01:13:52,040
Speaker 1: thinking about a conflict here in the United States and

1131
01:13:52,200 --> 01:13:56,920
Speaker 1: a small in a city between different ethnic communities, and

1132
01:13:58,520 --> 01:14:00,559
Speaker 1: I asked him each to do time time lines of

1133
01:14:00,600 --> 01:14:04,880
Speaker 1: the history of the city. And you know, it was

1134
01:14:04,960 --> 01:14:09,479
Speaker 1: fascinating because the same um period of time for one

1135
01:14:09,520 --> 01:14:14,559
Speaker 1: group was their time of dominance, and that was the

1136
01:14:14,600 --> 01:14:18,200
Speaker 1: same time that another community was excluded. And when you

1137
01:14:18,280 --> 01:14:21,320
Speaker 1: get down to the conversation, it's it's it's not, as

1138
01:14:21,320 --> 01:14:24,040
Speaker 1: I mentioned, just it's not about resources only, but it's

1139
01:14:24,080 --> 01:14:29,880
Speaker 1: about this idea of of of of a capacity for

1140
01:14:29,960 --> 01:14:34,639
Speaker 1: a community to be built that culturally allows for multiple

1141
01:14:34,720 --> 01:14:38,360
Speaker 1: voices to exist. And that to me is in some

1142
01:14:38,400 --> 01:14:46,080
Speaker 1: ways the justice. The justice component of our existence and um,

1143
01:14:46,120 --> 01:14:47,880
Speaker 1: you know, so I you know, I just hope in

1144
01:14:47,960 --> 01:14:50,960
Speaker 1: addition to the scarcity issue. But one of the things

1145
01:14:50,960 --> 01:14:54,800
Speaker 1: I see running through all these conflicts is people will say,

1146
01:14:54,920 --> 01:14:59,240
Speaker 1: for instance, and inter religious conflicts, Muslims and Christians have

1147
01:14:59,360 --> 01:15:02,960
Speaker 1: always been fighting, and that's not actually true. Or Muslim

1148
01:15:03,160 --> 01:15:06,200
Speaker 1: Jews have never had periods where they have worked together.

1149
01:15:06,320 --> 01:15:10,920
Speaker 1: That's not true. So when I re mythologize with religious communities,

1150
01:15:11,000 --> 01:15:15,880
Speaker 1: we look at times when the communities did maybe coexist

1151
01:15:15,960 --> 01:15:18,920
Speaker 1: and collaborate, and what were the conditions that led to it.

1152
01:15:21,000 --> 01:15:24,000
Speaker 1: We just have to always look at the narratives that

1153
01:15:24,080 --> 01:15:28,799
Speaker 1: we build upon and make sure that those are narratives

1154
01:15:28,800 --> 01:15:33,120
Speaker 1: that were not created in UM in a way that

1155
01:15:33,200 --> 01:15:37,800
Speaker 1: was actually false to what was happening and what can happen. UM.

1156
01:15:37,840 --> 01:15:41,120
Speaker 1: If we accept conflict as inevitable as a state of

1157
01:15:41,160 --> 01:15:45,559
Speaker 1: all humans for that till the end of time, What

1158
01:15:45,680 --> 01:15:49,960
Speaker 1: a powerful experience that must be too. Because when you

1159
01:15:50,000 --> 01:15:55,240
Speaker 1: say re mythologize, it's also about the image that comes

1160
01:15:55,280 --> 01:15:57,720
Speaker 1: to mind for me is almost pouring a new foundation,

1161
01:15:58,640 --> 01:16:01,200
Speaker 1: you know, for for a house, like a real base

1162
01:16:01,280 --> 01:16:03,920
Speaker 1: for things, and you're pouring it with truth. You know,

1163
01:16:04,000 --> 01:16:11,160
Speaker 1: you're you're really solidifying fact and and allowing people to

1164
01:16:11,240 --> 01:16:14,760
Speaker 1: come at it from a much more educated perspective and

1165
01:16:14,840 --> 01:16:17,040
Speaker 1: to see the landscape for what it is and how

1166
01:16:17,080 --> 01:16:20,799
Speaker 1: to move forward in in much more empowered and inclusive ways.

1167
01:16:20,840 --> 01:16:25,080
Speaker 1: I imagine, I'm curious, are there lessons you've learned, you know,

1168
01:16:25,160 --> 01:16:28,400
Speaker 1: in reverse from your students that that stick out to

1169
01:16:28,439 --> 01:16:34,760
Speaker 1: you as a professor? Absolutely? Like, Um, I'm actually we'll

1170
01:16:34,760 --> 01:16:37,520
Speaker 1: be starting at a I'm starting at a new institution

1171
01:16:37,520 --> 01:16:41,559
Speaker 1: called Chicago Theological Seminary. And one thing that really struck

1172
01:16:41,600 --> 01:16:46,880
Speaker 1: me was, you know, um, Los Angeles has a very

1173
01:16:47,000 --> 01:16:50,800
Speaker 1: large Native American population. And I grew up on the

1174
01:16:50,800 --> 01:16:54,200
Speaker 1: East coast in a small town in northern Virginia and DC.

1175
01:16:55,080 --> 01:16:59,920
Speaker 1: So here I was teaching theology, teaching religion and always

1176
01:17:00,040 --> 01:17:04,680
Speaker 1: doing Muslim, Christian, Jewish perspectives, Muslim, Christian, maybe Buddhist perspectives

1177
01:17:04,680 --> 01:17:08,680
Speaker 1: and new perspectives. And I started to have you know,

1178
01:17:08,840 --> 01:17:11,240
Speaker 1: I I came and I started to have Native students

1179
01:17:11,240 --> 01:17:15,520
Speaker 1: in my classes. And I had a student in particular,

1180
01:17:15,840 --> 01:17:19,160
Speaker 1: and her name is Cameron, and she transformed the way

1181
01:17:19,200 --> 01:17:24,559
Speaker 1: that I taught because um, I was teaching conflict resolution

1182
01:17:24,560 --> 01:17:26,800
Speaker 1: and mediation, and she was saying, you know, a lot

1183
01:17:26,880 --> 01:17:29,839
Speaker 1: of the methods that you're teaching come from indigenous roots.

1184
01:17:31,120 --> 01:17:34,879
Speaker 1: And it really made me think through what had happened

1185
01:17:35,000 --> 01:17:38,080
Speaker 1: as I was studying with some of the people who

1186
01:17:38,080 --> 01:17:41,400
Speaker 1: wrote the books in the field, and they had just

1187
01:17:41,600 --> 01:17:46,360
Speaker 1: not acknowledged those lineages. They did not explige, for instance,

1188
01:17:46,400 --> 01:17:51,200
Speaker 1: you know, maybe the Maori tradition's role, or um there's

1189
01:17:51,439 --> 01:17:55,840
Speaker 1: a Native Hawaiian method of peacemaking. So they're putting it

1190
01:17:55,880 --> 01:17:59,000
Speaker 1: in books and not teaching. It's not acknowledging it. And

1191
01:17:59,040 --> 01:18:03,760
Speaker 1: I'm thinking, wait, this is you know her her intervention

1192
01:18:04,000 --> 01:18:07,599
Speaker 1: was really important and it reversed the role of professor

1193
01:18:07,680 --> 01:18:13,559
Speaker 1: and teacher. It wasn't that I didn't necessarily know this fact,

1194
01:18:14,280 --> 01:18:16,599
Speaker 1: but I had been learning a practice that was deeply

1195
01:18:16,640 --> 01:18:21,639
Speaker 1: embedded and we have to you know, it changed now

1196
01:18:21,680 --> 01:18:25,520
Speaker 1: how I teach. So when I'm thinking about comparative perspectives

1197
01:18:25,560 --> 01:18:29,439
Speaker 1: on peacemaking, it means teaching, for instance, a scholar named

1198
01:18:29,479 --> 01:18:33,400
Speaker 1: Linda to Whui Smith, who's a Mary scholar, it means

1199
01:18:33,640 --> 01:18:38,760
Speaker 1: um acknowledging and understanding and naming and always not to

1200
01:18:38,800 --> 01:18:42,599
Speaker 1: the level of perfection that I would like to um,

1201
01:18:43,200 --> 01:18:45,639
Speaker 1: but that I think it was a really important lesson

1202
01:18:45,680 --> 01:18:49,640
Speaker 1: because so one of the how do I put it,

1203
01:18:49,720 --> 01:18:53,320
Speaker 1: one of the major uh, one of the major things

1204
01:18:53,320 --> 01:18:57,519
Speaker 1: that happens in a conflict is erasure. And when you

1205
01:18:57,600 --> 01:19:01,080
Speaker 1: erase the people in their history, that in some ways

1206
01:19:01,120 --> 01:19:05,800
Speaker 1: is the most damaging thing that you do because and

1207
01:19:05,840 --> 01:19:08,160
Speaker 1: sometimes if you name an you scapegoat, at least you

1208
01:19:08,200 --> 01:19:12,280
Speaker 1: have presence. But here we are teaching something and teaching

1209
01:19:12,320 --> 01:19:16,920
Speaker 1: practices and we continue. For instance, right now, the coronavirus

1210
01:19:17,000 --> 01:19:21,679
Speaker 1: is affecting um indigenous and Native communities in very serious

1211
01:19:21,720 --> 01:19:25,280
Speaker 1: ways in the United States being covered by the media.

1212
01:19:25,479 --> 01:19:28,760
Speaker 1: I don't think it's getting a lot of engagement, right

1213
01:19:28,840 --> 01:19:33,520
Speaker 1: and this, you know, this is a community that has existed,

1214
01:19:33,760 --> 01:19:39,840
Speaker 1: pre existed most uh most um of the lineages of

1215
01:19:39,840 --> 01:19:43,639
Speaker 1: of others. And so that really struck me. And um,

1216
01:19:43,680 --> 01:19:46,280
Speaker 1: so I would say, that's something I learned and it

1217
01:19:46,400 --> 01:19:50,160
Speaker 1: changed my world view. It had to once I. Once

1218
01:19:50,280 --> 01:19:58,720
Speaker 1: I thought about and recognize Native traditions as as as

1219
01:19:58,760 --> 01:20:03,080
Speaker 1: lineages of religious spiritual knowledge, then I had to kind

1220
01:20:03,120 --> 01:20:06,360
Speaker 1: of interrogate how I constructed everything that I was teaching.

1221
01:20:06,520 --> 01:20:11,320
Speaker 1: So yeah, so I think that's one example and unfortunately

1222
01:20:11,320 --> 01:20:14,559
Speaker 1: one that I continue to see replicated. And it's that

1223
01:20:14,720 --> 01:20:17,439
Speaker 1: just a raser like as if that's a thing in

1224
01:20:17,479 --> 01:20:21,320
Speaker 1: the past, but that's a community that doesn't exist anymore,

1225
01:20:21,360 --> 01:20:24,760
Speaker 1: when that community is very much here and very much

1226
01:20:24,800 --> 01:20:30,919
Speaker 1: apart of of UM building society, and and also continuing

1227
01:20:30,960 --> 01:20:36,000
Speaker 1: to be targeted by policies UM, sometimes specifically and sometimes

1228
01:20:36,160 --> 01:20:40,600
Speaker 1: by non acknowledgement. So yeah, sometimes the act of omission

1229
01:20:41,600 --> 01:20:45,160
Speaker 1: is as dangerous as an act of targeted commission against

1230
01:20:45,200 --> 01:20:52,120
Speaker 1: a community. Right well, And what an inspiring reminder really

1231
01:20:52,280 --> 01:20:55,240
Speaker 1: that that we always have the ability to look deeper,

1232
01:20:55,280 --> 01:21:00,040
Speaker 1: to understand more, to re to reframe our thinking, to

1233
01:21:00,160 --> 01:21:04,840
Speaker 1: reevaluate where we're coming from. It's it really serves as

1234
01:21:04,880 --> 01:21:09,639
Speaker 1: a reminder that there's a permission constantly for growth when

1235
01:21:09,680 --> 01:21:12,720
Speaker 1: we when we talk about your students, I can't help

1236
01:21:12,720 --> 01:21:15,040
Speaker 1: but think, given that that we are in the middle

1237
01:21:15,080 --> 01:21:21,520
Speaker 1: of these shutdowns because of coronavirus. Your college semester just stopped.

1238
01:21:21,840 --> 01:21:25,920
Speaker 1: Are are you are you teaching remotely? What what is

1239
01:21:25,960 --> 01:21:28,800
Speaker 1: that experience like as a professor to be in the

1240
01:21:28,840 --> 01:21:31,280
Speaker 1: middle of something with your students and then have it

1241
01:21:31,360 --> 01:21:33,880
Speaker 1: ceased like this. Yeah, I think I think for a

1242
01:21:33,880 --> 01:21:37,680
Speaker 1: lot of colleagues that's been very tough, UM, and I

1243
01:21:37,720 --> 01:21:41,280
Speaker 1: think I'm feeling it most right now in this season

1244
01:21:41,320 --> 01:21:45,960
Speaker 1: of time when our students. I teach masters and doctoral

1245
01:21:46,040 --> 01:21:49,160
Speaker 1: level students, so they spent a year, two years, three

1246
01:21:49,240 --> 01:21:52,600
Speaker 1: years on their projects. And I have amazing projects. I

1247
01:21:52,600 --> 01:21:56,120
Speaker 1: have a student that did her dissertation last year on

1248
01:21:56,240 --> 01:22:00,320
Speaker 1: migrant workers and theology. I have another student working on

1249
01:22:01,360 --> 01:22:06,520
Speaker 1: UM South Central Los Angeles and African American Muslim UM

1250
01:22:06,680 --> 01:22:11,120
Speaker 1: African American Muslim community organizations that are serving there. And

1251
01:22:11,240 --> 01:22:14,880
Speaker 1: so it's been, UM, it's been tough to not be

1252
01:22:15,040 --> 01:22:17,839
Speaker 1: there when they're doing and defending these years of research

1253
01:22:18,920 --> 01:22:21,799
Speaker 1: doing it by zoom. I did one this morning UM

1254
01:22:21,920 --> 01:22:24,960
Speaker 1: for a student who was talking about government policies at

1255
01:22:25,040 --> 01:22:28,240
Speaker 1: target the Muslim community and not being able to interact

1256
01:22:28,280 --> 01:22:32,479
Speaker 1: with them and congratulate them and thank them for their

1257
01:22:32,560 --> 01:22:37,280
Speaker 1: years of work. UM commencement. You know, we have students,

1258
01:22:38,120 --> 01:22:41,759
Speaker 1: you know, particularly UM, it's thinking about first generation students,

1259
01:22:41,800 --> 01:22:44,120
Speaker 1: the first ones to go to college in their family,

1260
01:22:44,280 --> 01:22:46,479
Speaker 1: the first one to get a doctorate degree, the first

1261
01:22:46,520 --> 01:22:52,280
Speaker 1: to become a pastor. You know, those are just incredible moments.

1262
01:22:52,520 --> 01:22:57,240
Speaker 1: And you know, for me as a professor, I savor

1263
01:22:57,600 --> 01:23:02,320
Speaker 1: witnessing their joy, because their joys my joy. UM watching

1264
01:23:02,360 --> 01:23:06,640
Speaker 1: you know, meeting their parents. I can't tell you how many, um,

1265
01:23:06,720 --> 01:23:10,080
Speaker 1: how many parents I get to meet every year. Last

1266
01:23:10,160 --> 01:23:12,519
Speaker 1: year I met um. You know, a lot of my

1267
01:23:12,560 --> 01:23:16,080
Speaker 1: students come from parts of the world where they're persecuted minorities.

1268
01:23:16,439 --> 01:23:18,320
Speaker 1: Some of them are Christians, some of them are from

1269
01:23:18,360 --> 01:23:22,799
Speaker 1: other religious backgrounds, and it's not easy for their families

1270
01:23:22,840 --> 01:23:26,759
Speaker 1: to come. And so I'm just thinking about you know, um,

1271
01:23:26,840 --> 01:23:31,040
Speaker 1: what that means. I mean, it's it's and with you know,

1272
01:23:31,120 --> 01:23:33,200
Speaker 1: with everything else going on in the world, we need,

1273
01:23:34,720 --> 01:23:39,360
Speaker 1: we need to be able to celebrate. So yeah, so yeah,

1274
01:23:39,400 --> 01:23:41,800
Speaker 1: I think it's Yeah, the joy. I'm gonna miss the

1275
01:23:41,880 --> 01:23:43,920
Speaker 1: joy and watching the joy on their faces and the

1276
01:23:43,960 --> 01:23:47,120
Speaker 1: people that they love with all trubbles that come with

1277
01:23:47,640 --> 01:23:53,799
Speaker 1: with education these days, during all of this being home,

1278
01:23:54,160 --> 01:24:01,200
Speaker 1: you know, being by by nature more I suppose introspective,

1279
01:24:01,320 --> 01:24:04,160
Speaker 1: given that we're all kind of walked up with ourselves

1280
01:24:04,160 --> 01:24:07,519
Speaker 1: and our thoughts. How how our spirituality and religion guiding

1281
01:24:07,560 --> 01:24:11,639
Speaker 1: you through this right now? You know, they are absolutely guiding.

1282
01:24:11,760 --> 01:24:14,840
Speaker 1: I'm looking at my um, I'm looking I'm sitting in

1283
01:24:14,960 --> 01:24:18,000
Speaker 1: my you know, in a at a desk and I

1284
01:24:18,080 --> 01:24:20,720
Speaker 1: have these little notes that are taped to my door

1285
01:24:20,760 --> 01:24:22,840
Speaker 1: and says love you, you are my mom, You're a

1286
01:24:22,920 --> 01:24:27,200
Speaker 1: kind human. That's from my love and your old and yeah,

1287
01:24:27,400 --> 01:24:30,000
Speaker 1: I think I needed it that day. She must have

1288
01:24:30,000 --> 01:24:35,920
Speaker 1: read into me little love letters. UM. So I think

1289
01:24:36,000 --> 01:24:42,160
Speaker 1: foremost is that sort of this idea in our tradition.

1290
01:24:42,280 --> 01:24:45,880
Speaker 1: We have something that the Muslim traditions says, if you

1291
01:24:45,960 --> 01:24:49,439
Speaker 1: have a patience, have but be beautiful patience. So it

1292
01:24:49,479 --> 01:24:54,439
Speaker 1: means not only am I recognizing that I, for instance,

1293
01:24:54,479 --> 01:24:57,839
Speaker 1: have the privilege to stay at home right I I'm

1294
01:24:57,880 --> 01:25:02,439
Speaker 1: a professor, I can do that and know I really

1295
01:25:02,479 --> 01:25:08,240
Speaker 1: think through this idea of how do I create uh,

1296
01:25:08,320 --> 01:25:13,040
Speaker 1: the spiritual capacity to be able to be patient UM

1297
01:25:13,080 --> 01:25:15,920
Speaker 1: in a way that isn't just grumbling and you know

1298
01:25:16,240 --> 01:25:21,680
Speaker 1: that sort of um complaining, but UM exhibits and exudes

1299
01:25:21,840 --> 01:25:26,599
Speaker 1: a sense of there is a reason that we're doing this,

1300
01:25:26,720 --> 01:25:28,960
Speaker 1: and it is kind of you know, I may not

1301
01:25:29,040 --> 01:25:32,599
Speaker 1: be directly, I may not be affected directly, but this

1302
01:25:32,720 --> 01:25:35,479
Speaker 1: is part of this is part of where we're feeling

1303
01:25:35,479 --> 01:25:38,600
Speaker 1: a collective that we're doing this. Whether I'm in a

1304
01:25:38,680 --> 01:25:43,040
Speaker 1: high risk category, whether I'm directly affected, this is going

1305
01:25:43,120 --> 01:25:45,760
Speaker 1: to save lives overall. It may not be my life,

1306
01:25:45,760 --> 01:25:48,240
Speaker 1: it might be someone else's. And so that to me

1307
01:25:48,320 --> 01:25:52,920
Speaker 1: is a spiritual duty that I exercise. Um. The sacredness

1308
01:25:52,920 --> 01:25:56,240
Speaker 1: of life, whether it's mine or someone else's, that I

1309
01:25:56,479 --> 01:25:59,240
Speaker 1: should protect that. And so UM, yeah, I see that

1310
01:25:59,320 --> 01:26:05,720
Speaker 1: foremost and just prayer for me is really important. UM.

1311
01:26:05,760 --> 01:26:09,240
Speaker 1: And I think you mentioned, you know, just hearing the birds,

1312
01:26:09,520 --> 01:26:15,759
Speaker 1: hearing um, hearing the earth speak and understanding that um,

1313
01:26:15,800 --> 01:26:18,120
Speaker 1: while I'm in my house, my neighbors in their house,

1314
01:26:18,280 --> 01:26:24,439
Speaker 1: that um, this is something that we're all doing. And

1315
01:26:24,439 --> 01:26:27,280
Speaker 1: while we're connecting through virtual means, we're all doing this

1316
01:26:27,360 --> 01:26:30,400
Speaker 1: in real time. I'm not sure that we've had an

1317
01:26:30,439 --> 01:26:33,479
Speaker 1: experience in the last twenty years, and I'm aware of

1318
01:26:33,479 --> 01:26:38,240
Speaker 1: where we're all really kind of going through. As we mentioned,

1319
01:26:38,240 --> 01:26:39,640
Speaker 1: there are a lot of people who don't have the

1320
01:26:39,720 --> 01:26:42,800
Speaker 1: privilege to stay home. What we are all going through

1321
01:26:42,960 --> 01:26:47,960
Speaker 1: is facing a really serious risk to to our whole

1322
01:26:48,280 --> 01:26:52,880
Speaker 1: um country, if not the world. So there's something, there's

1323
01:26:52,880 --> 01:26:56,599
Speaker 1: something to be learned and just um and thinking through

1324
01:26:56,640 --> 01:26:59,920
Speaker 1: what my role is in thinking through how do I

1325
01:27:00,080 --> 01:27:04,559
Speaker 1: contribute to it, not at again this this huge level,

1326
01:27:04,600 --> 01:27:10,200
Speaker 1: but as a mother, as um as someone who has

1327
01:27:10,600 --> 01:27:12,920
Speaker 1: and is a custodian of two children. What does that

1328
01:27:13,000 --> 01:27:17,559
Speaker 1: mean to be there for them, to be loving and caring?

1329
01:27:17,920 --> 01:27:19,880
Speaker 1: How do I check in on the people that I

1330
01:27:19,960 --> 01:27:22,439
Speaker 1: love and the friends that I have? How do I

1331
01:27:22,520 --> 01:27:25,120
Speaker 1: make sure that there's a community of care even if

1332
01:27:25,160 --> 01:27:29,160
Speaker 1: I can't see people face to face? And um, you know,

1333
01:27:29,360 --> 01:27:32,080
Speaker 1: so those are some of the things. In a strange way,

1334
01:27:32,600 --> 01:27:35,160
Speaker 1: I feel like I'm connecting much more to my family

1335
01:27:35,200 --> 01:27:39,840
Speaker 1: and friends then I have in in a long time.

1336
01:27:40,080 --> 01:27:44,800
Speaker 1: So there's a lesson in that too. Mm hmm. If

1337
01:27:44,840 --> 01:27:49,680
Speaker 1: you could leave our listeners with one lesson or practice

1338
01:27:49,880 --> 01:27:54,400
Speaker 1: to enact in their lives right now, maybe for some

1339
01:27:54,479 --> 01:27:59,440
Speaker 1: expansion or some relief for where what would that be? Um?

1340
01:27:59,479 --> 01:28:03,360
Speaker 1: In artre misition, there's this beautiful UM verse from the

1341
01:28:03,360 --> 01:28:09,000
Speaker 1: Ground or or um, this verse that asked this question,

1342
01:28:09,520 --> 01:28:12,439
Speaker 1: which of the favors of God will you deny? So?

1343
01:28:13,200 --> 01:28:16,640
Speaker 1: And it lists in that it listened that chapter of

1344
01:28:16,640 --> 01:28:22,680
Speaker 1: the ground. Beautiful examples like um the idea of the

1345
01:28:22,680 --> 01:28:26,759
Speaker 1: earth as a balance the fruits that we are provided nature.

1346
01:28:27,560 --> 01:28:31,879
Speaker 1: And so I really am starting off every day thinking

1347
01:28:31,960 --> 01:28:35,960
Speaker 1: through instead of and this is actually I think I

1348
01:28:36,040 --> 01:28:40,040
Speaker 1: practice that serves across. What I do in my work

1349
01:28:40,360 --> 01:28:46,200
Speaker 1: is how do I re calibrate my lens and saying

1350
01:28:46,280 --> 01:28:49,160
Speaker 1: what's missing? What can I have more of? What do

1351
01:28:49,200 --> 01:28:51,840
Speaker 1: I need more of? What do I have to get?

1352
01:28:52,160 --> 01:28:54,160
Speaker 1: Where do I have to be? Who do I have

1353
01:28:54,280 --> 01:28:57,599
Speaker 1: to meet? And think through? What do I already have?

1354
01:28:58,439 --> 01:29:02,120
Speaker 1: How much do I already have? What blessings I have?

1355
01:29:02,880 --> 01:29:06,439
Speaker 1: What have I been given? What can I enjoy? What

1356
01:29:06,479 --> 01:29:10,160
Speaker 1: can I share? What can I give away? What do

1357
01:29:10,240 --> 01:29:15,160
Speaker 1: I have much of? What do UM? You know? What

1358
01:29:15,280 --> 01:29:19,080
Speaker 1: do I need? And how can I ask for it? UM?

1359
01:29:19,160 --> 01:29:22,000
Speaker 1: When I recognize I don't have enough, but not starting

1360
01:29:22,080 --> 01:29:27,639
Speaker 1: from like denying all of the blessings that I have.

1361
01:29:28,160 --> 01:29:31,720
Speaker 1: And I mean, you know, as I mentioned, some of

1362
01:29:31,840 --> 01:29:38,240
Speaker 1: us have resources UM in abundance that are material. But

1363
01:29:38,280 --> 01:29:41,800
Speaker 1: there are a lot of resources, you know. I think about, UM,

1364
01:29:42,479 --> 01:29:45,360
Speaker 1: I think about the resource of listening. Isn't that an

1365
01:29:45,400 --> 01:29:51,040
Speaker 1: incredible gift? I always tell my students that listening is

1366
01:29:51,520 --> 01:29:55,880
Speaker 1: the gift that keeps giving and UM, so many of

1367
01:29:55,960 --> 01:30:00,000
Speaker 1: us are so desperately lonely. Whether we have a large

1368
01:30:00,320 --> 01:30:04,160
Speaker 1: platform and we're well connected on the internet, or we

1369
01:30:04,520 --> 01:30:09,000
Speaker 1: have a ton of friends, I'm not really sure. We're

1370
01:30:09,040 --> 01:30:14,000
Speaker 1: having or have had conversations where someone validated our full humanity.

1371
01:30:14,160 --> 01:30:17,920
Speaker 1: And I'm struck by how many conversations we have where

1372
01:30:17,960 --> 01:30:21,559
Speaker 1: we're not listening. And that's a resource. You may not

1373
01:30:21,720 --> 01:30:24,000
Speaker 1: have a financial resource, but you can pick up the

1374
01:30:24,000 --> 01:30:29,599
Speaker 1: phone and listen to someone who's struggling. And I really

1375
01:30:29,600 --> 01:30:32,280
Speaker 1: think if we did that more this, you know, we

1376
01:30:32,280 --> 01:30:36,720
Speaker 1: we live in a crisis of not just um, not

1377
01:30:36,840 --> 01:30:39,639
Speaker 1: just a public health crisis, but we live in a

1378
01:30:39,640 --> 01:30:42,960
Speaker 1: time in a crisis where people are desperately lonely and

1379
01:30:43,120 --> 01:30:48,639
Speaker 1: discussed and disaffected. And you know, I hope that thoughts

1380
01:30:48,680 --> 01:30:52,479
Speaker 1: a resource will consider sharing with each other. You know, Uh,

1381
01:30:53,000 --> 01:30:55,000
Speaker 1: so listening you've done with me today, I mean I

1382
01:30:55,000 --> 01:30:59,360
Speaker 1: think you've really listened. And you know what, I really

1383
01:30:59,360 --> 01:31:01,640
Speaker 1: think the base human need is to be heard and

1384
01:31:01,680 --> 01:31:05,320
Speaker 1: to be seen, and so us don't feel seen. And

1385
01:31:05,360 --> 01:31:08,360
Speaker 1: I don't mean seen in a way that we are

1386
01:31:08,439 --> 01:31:13,479
Speaker 1: recognized and get accolades and and and prizes, but just

1387
01:31:13,520 --> 01:31:17,160
Speaker 1: seen for who we are, um at the very basic

1388
01:31:17,240 --> 01:31:19,360
Speaker 1: level and how we choose to be in the world.

1389
01:31:19,439 --> 01:31:21,920
Speaker 1: So I hope that's a gift people will considering, a

1390
01:31:21,960 --> 01:31:26,880
Speaker 1: practice they'll share. I love that. I feel lighter after

1391
01:31:27,040 --> 01:31:31,160
Speaker 1: just listening to that answer, so thank you. UM. My

1392
01:31:31,280 --> 01:31:33,680
Speaker 1: final question for you is is the one that is

1393
01:31:33,680 --> 01:31:37,040
Speaker 1: my favorite to ask everybody. As you know, the podcast

1394
01:31:37,160 --> 01:31:39,960
Speaker 1: is called work in progress. And I'm curious when you

1395
01:31:40,120 --> 01:31:44,599
Speaker 1: hear the phrase what what comes to mind first as

1396
01:31:44,640 --> 01:31:47,559
Speaker 1: a work in progress in your life? Right now? I

1397
01:31:47,600 --> 01:31:52,400
Speaker 1: think you know, I'm um, So I'm a mom and

1398
01:31:52,439 --> 01:31:55,600
Speaker 1: I have two kids, and I think that the biggest

1399
01:31:57,240 --> 01:32:03,280
Speaker 1: kind of recognition I've had at my age, my undisclosed age,

1400
01:32:03,479 --> 01:32:08,840
Speaker 1: I'm happy to is um is what is success? You know?

1401
01:32:09,120 --> 01:32:14,519
Speaker 1: What is that's? Um? What is ambition? And I feel

1402
01:32:14,560 --> 01:32:18,080
Speaker 1: like I see my students, I see my kids, I

1403
01:32:18,160 --> 01:32:22,800
Speaker 1: see family members, I see all of us under this

1404
01:32:22,920 --> 01:32:28,400
Speaker 1: pressure of defining it outwardly and someone's map and label.

1405
01:32:28,560 --> 01:32:30,840
Speaker 1: And so let me use I statements here because this

1406
01:32:30,880 --> 01:32:36,280
Speaker 1: was that was a good question about me. And you know,

1407
01:32:36,479 --> 01:32:41,800
Speaker 1: so like I I've really begun to think about Wait,

1408
01:32:42,360 --> 01:32:47,479
Speaker 1: have I been a good friend? Have I been a

1409
01:32:47,520 --> 01:32:51,400
Speaker 1: good human to the earth? Uh? You know, this year

1410
01:32:51,439 --> 01:32:55,760
Speaker 1: I've been really thinking about my carbon imprint. So I

1411
01:32:55,840 --> 01:32:58,960
Speaker 1: moved to buying a lot of my clothes secondhand. Um,

1412
01:32:59,000 --> 01:33:03,479
Speaker 1: I you know, thought about my house and just trying

1413
01:33:03,479 --> 01:33:06,920
Speaker 1: to make a lot of different choices because to me

1414
01:33:07,160 --> 01:33:12,559
Speaker 1: that begins to be what success is. Uh, and it

1415
01:33:12,640 --> 01:33:15,240
Speaker 1: really in some ways follows the Buddhist principle of this

1416
01:33:15,360 --> 01:33:19,240
Speaker 1: idea of how can I decrease my harm in the world,

1417
01:33:19,439 --> 01:33:22,280
Speaker 1: you know, live a life of no harm. So I've

1418
01:33:22,280 --> 01:33:26,719
Speaker 1: been thinking about that far more as success than am

1419
01:33:26,880 --> 01:33:31,040
Speaker 1: I um running after the career? You know? I ran

1420
01:33:31,120 --> 01:33:33,639
Speaker 1: after the career that I wanted and I got it

1421
01:33:34,200 --> 01:33:38,960
Speaker 1: in my twenties, and then I wasn't happy. I wasn't unhappy,

1422
01:33:39,160 --> 01:33:45,000
Speaker 1: but it didn't bring it didn't bring the rush of

1423
01:33:45,000 --> 01:33:48,240
Speaker 1: of of sort of I could. You know, I got

1424
01:33:48,240 --> 01:33:53,000
Speaker 1: awards for the work that I've done, But ultimately I

1425
01:33:53,240 --> 01:33:55,880
Speaker 1: it's that inner critic, and I don't want the inner

1426
01:33:55,920 --> 01:33:58,080
Speaker 1: critic to go away because sometimes I feel like that's

1427
01:33:58,080 --> 01:34:00,320
Speaker 1: what people say, just like goo of the inter predicture,

1428
01:34:00,320 --> 01:34:02,640
Speaker 1: you'll be fine. I actually want to have an internal

1429
01:34:02,680 --> 01:34:07,680
Speaker 1: moral compass right um. But seeing it that way, not

1430
01:34:07,840 --> 01:34:12,240
Speaker 1: as have you achieved this goal by this age and

1431
01:34:12,640 --> 01:34:17,360
Speaker 1: creating these artificial conditions that really I think break people

1432
01:34:17,400 --> 01:34:22,240
Speaker 1: down mentally, spiritually, emotionally. And began to think about am

1433
01:34:22,280 --> 01:34:28,400
Speaker 1: I living a life that is UM connected that is

1434
01:34:29,000 --> 01:34:33,240
Speaker 1: helping others. And you know, the more that I am

1435
01:34:33,280 --> 01:34:35,960
Speaker 1: in a position of doing that, the happier that I am.

1436
01:34:36,320 --> 01:34:40,479
Speaker 1: And that's been really helpful to think about self care

1437
01:34:41,040 --> 01:34:44,160
Speaker 1: in a communal notion, and how am I in relationship

1438
01:34:44,200 --> 01:34:48,040
Speaker 1: to the earth, in relationship to my family, and relationship

1439
01:34:48,080 --> 01:34:53,040
Speaker 1: to my community, in relationship to the world, and and

1440
01:34:53,120 --> 01:34:56,639
Speaker 1: so yeah, every began to rethink success quite a bit,

1441
01:34:56,800 --> 01:35:01,280
Speaker 1: and I don't know, develop my own developed my own

1442
01:35:01,520 --> 01:35:05,040
Speaker 1: um ways of thinking about it. And that's read me.

1443
01:35:05,160 --> 01:35:11,080
Speaker 1: I feel incredibly free. You know, I feel connected, but

1444
01:35:11,200 --> 01:35:13,719
Speaker 1: I feel free. And when I was using the former

1445
01:35:14,280 --> 01:35:19,120
Speaker 1: measurements of success, I felt trapped and I felt disaffected

1446
01:35:19,160 --> 01:35:27,559
Speaker 1: and disconnected. So that's beautiful. Thank you. This show is

1447
01:35:27,560 --> 01:35:31,720
Speaker 1: executive produced by Me, Sophia Bush, and sim Sarna. Our

1448
01:35:31,760 --> 01:35:36,280
Speaker 1: supervising producer is Alison Bresnick. Our associate producer is Kate Linley,

1449
01:35:36,960 --> 01:35:40,120
Speaker 1: Our editor is Josh Wendish, and our music was written

1450
01:35:40,120 --> 01:35:43,360
Speaker 1: by Jack Garrett and produced by Mark Foster. This show

1451
01:35:43,400 --> 01:35:45,520
Speaker 1: is brought to you by Brilliant Anatomy