WEBVTT - Jim Citrin, CEO Practice Leader @ Spencer Stuart: The CEO Maker 0:00:04.160 --> 0:00:06.400 Welcome to office hours, but we sit down with the 0:00:06.400 --> 0:00:09.000 people shaping the world and answer your most pressing questions 0:00:09.000 --> 0:00:13.200 about leadership, career, and life. I'm Mike Steibe, and if 0:00:13.200 --> 0:00:15.159 you've ever wondered what it takes to get all the 0:00:15.160 --> 0:00:19.079 way to CEO, to these conversations for you. As the 0:00:19.160 --> 0:00:23.000 leader of Spencer Stewart's CEO recruiting practice, our guest today 0:00:23.079 --> 0:00:25.720 has likely played more CEOs in their roles than anyone 0:00:25.760 --> 0:00:29.040 else in the world. In addition, he's also the author 0:00:29.080 --> 0:00:32.800 of seven life changing books on career growth and leadership, 0:00:32.840 --> 0:00:36.680 including the Career Playbook and the international bestseller You're in 0:00:36.760 --> 0:00:40.239 Charge Now. What if your cell phone blows up and 0:00:40.360 --> 0:00:42.600 Jim Sittern is on the line, You take the call. 0:00:42.960 --> 0:00:43.360 Jim. 0:00:44.000 --> 0:00:44.760 Welcome to the show. 0:00:47.479 --> 0:00:49.080 Thanks Mike. Such a pleasure. 0:00:49.360 --> 0:00:52.000 So, Jim, when I was twenty six and I'm struggling 0:00:52.040 --> 0:00:55.240 with my career, I read a phenomenal book and it 0:00:55.280 --> 0:00:58.120 was your book, The Five Patterns of an Extraordinary Career, 0:00:58.480 --> 0:01:03.040 and it literally changed the direction of my work and 0:01:03.080 --> 0:01:05.720 where I ended up. And now you, your firm, have 0:01:05.760 --> 0:01:09.080 put me in some of the most interesting situations board CEO, 0:01:09.160 --> 0:01:11.720 et cetera. It's really come full circle and it is 0:01:11.760 --> 0:01:14.440 for me a real amazing pleasure to be here with you. 0:01:14.600 --> 0:01:15.840 Oh that's so great, Mike. 0:01:15.920 --> 0:01:17.800 We're gonna have a lot of fun. As you know, 0:01:17.840 --> 0:01:19.800 we got a bunch of questions from the audience. Folks 0:01:19.840 --> 0:01:21.600 wanted to hear about you on how to get to CEO, 0:01:21.760 --> 0:01:25.039 how to make their first couple of career choices, how 0:01:25.080 --> 0:01:26.920 to shape their careers. And there's a bunch of questions 0:01:26.920 --> 0:01:29.240 in here about how to interview too, which nobody knows 0:01:29.280 --> 0:01:31.600 better than you. So it's all right, Will let's go 0:01:31.600 --> 0:01:34.000 to the first one. It's from Mateo and San Diego, 0:01:34.120 --> 0:01:34.920 and he said. 0:01:35.440 --> 0:01:38.039 I find the hardest thing about planning my career is 0:01:38.080 --> 0:01:40.360 knowing what I want to do. How did you guys 0:01:40.400 --> 0:01:42.720 know the right direction for you early in your career 0:01:43.080 --> 0:01:45.520 and what advice do you have for someone who's struggling 0:01:45.560 --> 0:01:46.240 to see that path? 0:01:46.640 --> 0:01:50.360 So, Jim, I got this great job at Morgan Stanley 0:01:50.400 --> 0:01:52.800 as a financial analyst on Wall Street, and it was 0:01:52.840 --> 0:01:56.360 the early eighties, and I was okay at it, but 0:01:56.480 --> 0:01:59.040 I wasn't great at it, and I did well enough 0:01:59.520 --> 0:02:02.400 to be fine. But I was able to get into 0:02:02.880 --> 0:02:06.400 Harvard Business School, which was amazing I had a framework 0:02:06.440 --> 0:02:08.240 for what I wanted to do. I was twenty six, 0:02:08.480 --> 0:02:11.560 and I'll be really honest, Mike, I wanted to work 0:02:11.600 --> 0:02:16.320 in a highly prestigious organization. Have prestige was important to me. 0:02:16.400 --> 0:02:18.560 You've noted that can be important in career paths is 0:02:18.600 --> 0:02:20.720 having that early blue chip experience. 0:02:20.840 --> 0:02:23.680 I am a huge believer in going blue chip early 0:02:23.919 --> 0:02:27.480 and then building off of that. And I'll be honest, 0:02:27.520 --> 0:02:28.959 I wanted to make a lot of money as well, 0:02:29.040 --> 0:02:34.240 So lifestyle, money, and prestige were my three kind of things. 0:02:34.320 --> 0:02:37.560 And then I interviewed across the board, and I was 0:02:37.560 --> 0:02:40.519 good at interviewing, so I got lots of different opportunities 0:02:40.560 --> 0:02:44.120 and pretty advanced offers. I went to a company at 0:02:44.120 --> 0:02:46.960 the time was one of the most valuable media companies 0:02:46.960 --> 0:02:50.280 in the world. It was many of the listeners might 0:02:50.320 --> 0:02:54.079 not even remember it, but you certainly will readers Digest Readers. 0:02:54.120 --> 0:02:56.280 Digest had just gone public. It was a six billion 0:02:56.320 --> 0:02:59.080 dollar company, the largest magazine company in the world. I 0:02:59.120 --> 0:03:03.160 had my year review and I had a boss who said, Jim, 0:03:03.639 --> 0:03:05.800 he said, you had an okay year. You know, it 0:03:05.919 --> 0:03:08.440 wasn't great. He said, let me ask you a question. 0:03:08.720 --> 0:03:11.720 What is the skill on the back of which you 0:03:11.760 --> 0:03:13.079 want to build your career. 0:03:13.520 --> 0:03:14.720 It's a really interesting question. 0:03:14.880 --> 0:03:15.880 That's a good way to think about it. 0:03:15.880 --> 0:03:20.960 And I was thirty three, and without even hesitating, I said, relationships. 0:03:21.440 --> 0:03:24.640 So long story short, at the age of the tender 0:03:24.680 --> 0:03:28.640 age of thirty four, I went into Spencer Stewart and 0:03:28.680 --> 0:03:31.480 it's been an amazing twenty five plus years. 0:03:31.480 --> 0:03:34.000 And it sounds like before that you were focused on 0:03:34.040 --> 0:03:39.000 the sort of external items like prestige and money and location, 0:03:39.200 --> 0:03:41.600 and not that those things aren't important, but as soon 0:03:41.640 --> 0:03:45.320 as you turned your attention to the internal motivator, the 0:03:45.320 --> 0:03:46.800 thing that you personally enjoyed doing. 0:03:46.920 --> 0:03:47.760 Yes, I had a. 0:03:47.800 --> 0:03:49.880 Very similar experience. I was at McKinsey early in my 0:03:49.920 --> 0:03:53.240 career as well, about eighteen months into it. Our receptionist 0:03:53.320 --> 0:03:56.600 Linda said to me, Mike, you don't look happy. And 0:03:56.640 --> 0:03:58.560 I said, I don't know, Linda, this jobs like that. 0:03:58.960 --> 0:04:01.360 And she said, well, Mike, you know it's not address 0:04:01.360 --> 0:04:03.400 rehearsal that your life. You probably wouldn't do something else. 0:04:03.840 --> 0:04:05.040 She was right, and I got my you know, I 0:04:05.080 --> 0:04:06.520 got my head on what I mean, what I personally 0:04:06.520 --> 0:04:08.200 realized is I just I really enjoyed the doing I 0:04:08.280 --> 0:04:11.240 enjoyed the operating interesting and the you know, the advice 0:04:11.280 --> 0:04:12.840 you give in consulting. It can be a lot of 0:04:12.840 --> 0:04:15.240 fun to get to that point, but it felt so unsatisfying. 0:04:15.280 --> 0:04:19.280 I kept eating the appetizer, not the entree. So it's 0:04:19.560 --> 0:04:21.000 really helpful. It was great advice. 0:04:21.120 --> 0:04:23.560 It's great and that's why you've become a multiple time 0:04:23.640 --> 0:04:25.360 successful operating CEO. 0:04:25.160 --> 0:04:25.960 And you're awesome at it. 0:04:26.000 --> 0:04:28.640 I would have been allows the CEO because what I 0:04:28.680 --> 0:04:31.599 loved about McKenzie was I love the advisory work. I 0:04:31.640 --> 0:04:34.839 love the teamwork, I love the communications, I love the 0:04:34.880 --> 0:04:38.040 global network of it. I love the people. And so 0:04:38.960 --> 0:04:41.359 what I what I learned and what I've learned, and 0:04:41.400 --> 0:04:43.560 I've now done research and proven this and we'll talk 0:04:43.600 --> 0:04:45.839 about this in the five Patterns in the Career Playbook, 0:04:46.480 --> 0:04:52.080 is that those criteria that really are important. Number one 0:04:52.360 --> 0:04:57.560 is people. You can have the worst career, you could 0:04:57.600 --> 0:05:01.480 have the worst job description, you can actually make lousy money, 0:05:01.520 --> 0:05:03.479 you can have a really brutal lifestyle. But if you're 0:05:03.640 --> 0:05:07.000 truly working with people who you love, you respect, through 0:05:07.040 --> 0:05:10.320 your friends, you admire, you're going to be pretty happy. 0:05:10.440 --> 0:05:12.320 And that's why if you look back on people who've 0:05:12.320 --> 0:05:14.840 been in the military or in the police force or 0:05:14.880 --> 0:05:18.559 the fire department. They love it because they're like bond. 0:05:18.640 --> 0:05:22.720 There's a bond there. So people is number one. And 0:05:22.760 --> 0:05:25.160 then the second thing is what I learned again, you 0:05:25.320 --> 0:05:28.600 were an operator, so your strengths are going to run companies. 0:05:29.880 --> 0:05:33.000 Playing to your strengths is a really So back to 0:05:33.040 --> 0:05:36.360 the original question of our listener, in the age of 0:05:36.440 --> 0:05:39.320 and in your twenties and your thirties, try and be 0:05:39.400 --> 0:05:42.720 really self aware and get advice from your friends, your family, 0:05:42.839 --> 0:05:46.320 your colleagues. What are you're distinctive at. I was great 0:05:46.360 --> 0:05:49.760 at interviewing, I was great at communicating, I was great 0:05:49.760 --> 0:05:52.760 at writing. I'm actually good at selling and persuading things. 0:05:53.200 --> 0:05:56.240 So if you're in a role that plays to those strengths, 0:05:56.440 --> 0:05:57.919 you're going to be successful. And if you can do 0:05:57.960 --> 0:06:01.000 that with people who you like, then the financial success 0:06:01.080 --> 0:06:05.520 will inevitably follow. And the lifestyle if you can shape 0:06:05.560 --> 0:06:07.400 it a little bit, especially in our now more of 0:06:07.440 --> 0:06:10.600 a hybrid world, but that will also fall into place 0:06:10.640 --> 0:06:11.000 as well. 0:06:11.680 --> 0:06:12.520 That's fantastic. 0:06:12.560 --> 0:06:12.720 You know. 0:06:12.760 --> 0:06:17.039 The next question it dovetails off of this nicely. Grace says, 0:06:17.080 --> 0:06:20.159 I'm early in my career that I've always performed at 0:06:20.200 --> 0:06:20.719 a high. 0:06:20.600 --> 0:06:23.719 Level, and I have ambitions to be a senior business leader. 0:06:24.360 --> 0:06:26.960 What can I be doing now to set myself up 0:06:27.000 --> 0:06:28.760 for success in the long term. 0:06:29.320 --> 0:06:30.800 So you talked a bit about some of your early 0:06:30.880 --> 0:06:34.240 experiences and you've seen a lot of people's trajectory. What 0:06:34.320 --> 0:06:36.400 are those? What do people do? 0:06:36.600 --> 0:06:39.000 How do we get there? That's a brilliant question. 0:06:39.520 --> 0:06:44.040 So and we've actually researched this and in the book 0:06:44.440 --> 0:06:48.400 The Five Patterns of Extraordinary Careers, we did we interviewed 0:06:48.560 --> 0:06:53.760 over one thousand senior leaders, and we surveyed scores of thousands, 0:06:53.839 --> 0:06:59.080 and we were looking for the differentiators and that's where 0:06:59.120 --> 0:07:02.320 those different cerentiators between the good and the great are 0:07:02.480 --> 0:07:06.479 the five patterns. There are two things in those five 0:07:06.520 --> 0:07:09.559 patterns that are at the heart of the question. Number 0:07:09.600 --> 0:07:14.160 one is you have to do the basic job well. 0:07:14.760 --> 0:07:18.760 It sounds trite, but you have to do whatever your 0:07:18.840 --> 0:07:20.800 job is. You have to do it well. You have 0:07:20.920 --> 0:07:24.960 to be really responsible, and then to do it with 0:07:25.000 --> 0:07:27.960 a good attitude, especially as someone in their twenty I 0:07:28.000 --> 0:07:31.120 think it's true no matter what age. But doing it 0:07:31.160 --> 0:07:35.320 with a positive attitude, it can do attitude, be responsive 0:07:35.360 --> 0:07:37.920 to your colleagues to if you have clients or customers, 0:07:37.920 --> 0:07:40.880 to your clients or customers, be responsive and have an 0:07:41.000 --> 0:07:44.320 attitude of how can I help so, and just do 0:07:44.480 --> 0:07:47.200 high quality work. That's essentially the ticket to the dance. 0:07:47.760 --> 0:07:50.520 But that's not the real answer to the question of 0:07:50.560 --> 0:07:53.600 how you differentiate and make it to that corner office. 0:07:54.400 --> 0:08:01.520 It's really about differentiating yourself based on doing more than 0:08:01.800 --> 0:08:05.360 what's asked. But here's the distinction. Back in the research 0:08:05.400 --> 0:08:10.440 for the five patterns, and we did an analysis of 0:08:10.520 --> 0:08:15.760 the kind of the top quartile of executives, and most 0:08:15.800 --> 0:08:21.920 of them the survey and the research was to what 0:08:22.000 --> 0:08:24.920 extent do you meet your objectives? And basically on a 0:08:24.920 --> 0:08:27.720 self reported basis, everybody says, of course, I meet my objectives. 0:08:28.160 --> 0:08:31.480 And then the people who are the top quartile, they 0:08:32.120 --> 0:08:36.560 overall exceeded their objectives by about twenty twenty five percent. 0:08:36.679 --> 0:08:40.000 So if they were in sales, they'd overdelivered their quoted 0:08:40.040 --> 0:08:42.600 by twenty five percent, if they were in operations they 0:08:42.600 --> 0:08:45.480 would deliver better costs by twenty percent. If they were 0:08:45.480 --> 0:08:48.800 in finance whatever cost of borrowing makes sense. But the 0:08:48.840 --> 0:08:55.160 top five percent tile actually only met their objectives. But 0:08:55.240 --> 0:08:57.160 before we figured out. We was like, wait a second, 0:08:57.200 --> 0:08:59.400 there's a mistake in the data because these are the 0:08:59.440 --> 0:09:03.559 demonstrated top five percentile. But they just meet their objectives. 0:09:03.720 --> 0:09:05.640 When we did the follow up, we did something like 0:09:05.720 --> 0:09:08.160 three hundred follow up interviews to get at the heart 0:09:08.200 --> 0:09:11.559 of this question, and they said, no, just doing twenty 0:09:11.559 --> 0:09:16.240 percent more, that's not the thing. What we were able 0:09:16.280 --> 0:09:20.080 to do is free up some capacity doing a great 0:09:20.160 --> 0:09:23.439 job in the basics and then thinking what would add 0:09:23.520 --> 0:09:25.920 value to my job, or to my team, or to 0:09:25.960 --> 0:09:29.800 my department or to my company, and then do that. 0:09:30.480 --> 0:09:33.200 And this is where you can be very much of 0:09:33.240 --> 0:09:36.760 a proactive person. Your boss isn't going to really know 0:09:36.880 --> 0:09:39.440 what else you can do. You know your job better 0:09:39.480 --> 0:09:42.679 than anybody. Do the basics, do it really well with 0:09:42.679 --> 0:09:46.120 a great attitude, free up time and say, huh, I 0:09:46.120 --> 0:09:50.040 can do this, and whether it's a side project, it 0:09:50.040 --> 0:09:52.400 can go back to being an intern and sit and 0:09:52.520 --> 0:09:55.840 volunteer to do the summer outing. Or you can be 0:09:55.960 --> 0:09:59.319 a CFO and all the way at the top and 0:09:59.559 --> 0:10:02.120 freep to time and serve on an external corporate board. 0:10:02.440 --> 0:10:04.920 Or you can be a division head working on your 0:10:04.960 --> 0:10:07.720 division and say you know what I actually think there's 0:10:07.800 --> 0:10:13.280 an opportunity to do an enterprise wide AI strategy. I'd 0:10:13.320 --> 0:10:17.120 like to do that. The principle applies from the beginning 0:10:17.200 --> 0:10:20.280 of your career to the end. So it's the differentiation 0:10:20.600 --> 0:10:23.600 and here's the thing. Do a great job on the basics, 0:10:24.040 --> 0:10:27.720 free up time to do something different that meets two tests, 0:10:27.920 --> 0:10:31.600 that adds value to the organization, and that you bring 0:10:31.679 --> 0:10:34.960 others along with him, so you're not considered just a 0:10:35.000 --> 0:10:35.800 grand standard. 0:10:36.040 --> 0:10:37.960 You talked before you went and got an MBA. I 0:10:38.000 --> 0:10:41.120 get that question a lot early in your career. Is 0:10:41.200 --> 0:10:42.760 it a good investment of time? 0:10:42.800 --> 0:10:42.920 Now? 0:10:43.000 --> 0:10:44.800 What's your framework for that? And what do you see 0:10:45.559 --> 0:10:46.800 in other successful leaders? 0:10:47.240 --> 0:10:51.760 It's changing a lot, Mike. Back when I went to 0:10:51.840 --> 0:10:56.160 business school, I don't have the numbers on the top 0:10:56.200 --> 0:11:01.640 of my head, but back then the Fortune five hundred CEOs, 0:11:01.840 --> 0:11:04.520 there were a lot of Harvard MBAs, and it was 0:11:04.520 --> 0:11:08.720 like the Supreme Court it was today, it's not nearly 0:11:08.760 --> 0:11:12.360 so much. A lot of founders, not only today, not 0:11:12.520 --> 0:11:14.880 recommend MBAs, A lot of them. You know, I don't 0:11:14.880 --> 0:11:17.720 even recommend going to college exactly. I think that's a 0:11:17.760 --> 0:11:21.840 risky strategy. I'm a big personal believer in education. I 0:11:21.840 --> 0:11:26.720 think education is a huge opportunity both to develop skills 0:11:26.760 --> 0:11:30.240 and to develop relationships. Relationships will be something that carries 0:11:30.240 --> 0:11:31.000 you through your career. 0:11:31.120 --> 0:11:33.160 And it's probably debatable if it raises the ceiling, but 0:11:33.200 --> 0:11:34.600 it definitely raises the floor. 0:11:35.040 --> 0:11:35.560 It's great. 0:11:35.720 --> 0:11:38.760 That's a great way to say so. In general, I'm 0:11:38.800 --> 0:11:42.280 supportive of it, but with particularly with the question of MBAs, 0:11:43.200 --> 0:11:47.480 it's a if you're in that top twenty schools where 0:11:47.559 --> 0:11:50.560 the network are going to really be a part of 0:11:50.600 --> 0:11:55.040 your professional future, then it could be worth the opportunity 0:11:55.040 --> 0:11:59.040 cost of coming out full time and the cost of 0:11:59.120 --> 0:12:01.400 doing that, But if it's not, if you're not in 0:12:01.440 --> 0:12:05.600 the top top group then and you really want the skills, 0:12:05.760 --> 0:12:08.760 there are lots of different opportunities to get the skills today, 0:12:09.360 --> 0:12:12.120 and it goes back to this eighty twenty rule. Just 0:12:12.160 --> 0:12:15.720 freeing up some capacity, you know, getting advanced education, and 0:12:15.800 --> 0:12:18.280 whether it's on a course basis through companies like Coursera, 0:12:18.600 --> 0:12:23.120 or if it's online education through degree programs. That's the 0:12:23.160 --> 0:12:24.240 way I would think about it. 0:12:24.960 --> 0:12:27.520 Nail the day job, do the side job, bring other 0:12:27.559 --> 0:12:30.440 people along with you, and you don't necessarily have to 0:12:30.440 --> 0:12:32.520 take the two years off you can learn through the 0:12:32.520 --> 0:12:35.640 side hustle. We've been part of the question on AGA 0:12:35.679 --> 0:12:39.280 and Nashville had hit me up on LinkedIn and asked, 0:12:39.400 --> 0:12:40.800 is like, is it better to be a generalist or 0:12:40.800 --> 0:12:42.760 a specialist? And how long do you need to spend 0:12:42.760 --> 0:12:45.440 and role? So that's highly related to this question. Do 0:12:45.440 --> 0:12:47.079 you have a deeper perspective. 0:12:47.640 --> 0:12:52.839 In the end, And I'll answer Mike by going backwards 0:12:53.679 --> 0:12:59.600 to me. In most cases, generalists lead big organizations, big 0:12:59.640 --> 0:13:04.400 teams and solve big problems and have bigger impact. But 0:13:04.520 --> 0:13:07.160 to get to be that high impact generalist, you have 0:13:07.280 --> 0:13:09.880 to be known for something if you've got to do something. 0:13:10.000 --> 0:13:10.600 So my. 0:13:12.160 --> 0:13:16.160 Ideal recommended pattern is start a little generalist. You have 0:13:16.200 --> 0:13:19.800 to start with something, whether it's sales, finance, technology, engineering, 0:13:20.400 --> 0:13:23.440 something physical, it doesn't matter. Start and do it well. 0:13:24.040 --> 0:13:27.600 But in your twenties, try and get a lot of 0:13:27.679 --> 0:13:30.600 different experiences. See what you like, see what you're good at, 0:13:30.679 --> 0:13:34.960 see where you're thriving, and then by think of it 0:13:35.040 --> 0:13:38.400 in kind of decades. So in your twenties you're trying 0:13:38.400 --> 0:13:41.080 out lots of different things. By the end of the twenties, 0:13:41.080 --> 0:13:42.959 you want to say this in the career playbook. You 0:13:42.960 --> 0:13:45.760 want to essentially declare your major. In my case, I 0:13:45.800 --> 0:13:48.760 was going to be a human capital or recruiter. You 0:13:48.800 --> 0:13:50.840 want to be a finance person and technology and engineer 0:13:50.880 --> 0:13:54.079 whatever it is, and then do a great job in that. 0:13:54.720 --> 0:13:59.640 But through this principle of finding other ways, then you 0:13:59.760 --> 0:14:03.800 add add value in outside ways and you become more 0:14:03.840 --> 0:14:06.200 for generalists. And by the way, this leads to a 0:14:06.240 --> 0:14:11.400 really really important question, which is how do you you 0:14:11.440 --> 0:14:14.040 can become such a specialist and so valuable to your 0:14:14.120 --> 0:14:17.080 organization that how do you actually move So I think 0:14:17.120 --> 0:14:20.840 there might be other questions about about that. Let me 0:14:20.920 --> 0:14:22.680 go to the next one, and we're starting to get there. 0:14:23.640 --> 0:14:27.440 John David and Tuscaloosa, Alabama said, every. 0:14:27.160 --> 0:14:29.400 Interesting job posting, I see it requires me to have 0:14:29.480 --> 0:14:30.840 experience in that job already. 0:14:31.440 --> 0:14:33.200 How am I supposed to get a job that requires 0:14:33.240 --> 0:14:35.560 me to have already had the job? And why would 0:14:35.560 --> 0:14:37.560 I want to do a job I've already done? 0:14:37.800 --> 0:14:41.040 So you actually teed this up quite nicely. Well, that's 0:14:41.080 --> 0:14:44.800 such a great question, and it is. It's something, it's 0:14:44.840 --> 0:14:49.120 a conundrum, and I call it the permission paradox. 0:14:49.120 --> 0:14:51.160 Permission I remember, I remember that you. 0:14:51.080 --> 0:14:53.240 Can't get the job without the experience, but you can't 0:14:53.240 --> 0:14:56.040 get the experience out of the job, so you're you know, 0:14:56.880 --> 0:14:58.760 but you don't want to be defeatists. So how do 0:14:58.760 --> 0:15:02.560 you actually over come that permission paradox? And there are 0:15:02.640 --> 0:15:04.960 strategies to do that, but by the way, just be 0:15:05.080 --> 0:15:10.240 encouraged everybody. It's not only at your entry level or 0:15:10.560 --> 0:15:13.960 the manager level. It's all the way to the CEO suite. 0:15:14.440 --> 0:15:17.240 You know, you're on public company boards, you know, pup 0:15:17.480 --> 0:15:20.720 boards say oh, we're recruiting for CEO. We want someone 0:15:20.760 --> 0:15:22.760 who's been a CEO before because we don't want to 0:15:22.800 --> 0:15:23.320 take the risk. 0:15:23.400 --> 0:15:25.000 We want a board director. Make sure they have public 0:15:25.000 --> 0:15:26.440 company board experience exactly. 0:15:26.760 --> 0:15:31.600 So that permission paradox is there throughout your entire career. 0:15:31.920 --> 0:15:35.560 So the understanding it and being able to overcome it 0:15:35.600 --> 0:15:39.360 is actually a really valuable lifelong skill. So the way 0:15:39.400 --> 0:15:42.360 to overcome that is well, there are few ways. Number 0:15:42.400 --> 0:15:45.600 one is to break down whatever the next job is 0:15:46.200 --> 0:15:51.160 into its component parts. And let's say it's a manager, 0:15:51.360 --> 0:15:55.520 where you will have had to the listing on LinkedIn 0:15:55.680 --> 0:15:57.800 says you will have had to manage five to ten 0:15:57.880 --> 0:15:59.400 people a budget of xyz. 0:16:00.080 --> 0:16:03.880 You will have had to drive revenue and manage costs 0:16:03.920 --> 0:16:04.640 or something like that. 0:16:05.120 --> 0:16:07.120 And let's say you haven't been a manager yet, so 0:16:07.160 --> 0:16:10.240 you're breaking into your first manager job. You take each 0:16:10.280 --> 0:16:13.880 of those things and you try and find other ways 0:16:13.960 --> 0:16:16.480 to get that experience. Okay, so you haven't been a 0:16:16.520 --> 0:16:19.480 manager in your current job, but let's say you're the 0:16:19.560 --> 0:16:22.760 coach of youth soccer team, or you're doing the budget 0:16:22.920 --> 0:16:28.480 for the school fundraising drive or something like that. You 0:16:28.600 --> 0:16:32.160 just you address it and you say, well, I know 0:16:32.280 --> 0:16:35.640 the listing is asking for all these skills. I haven't 0:16:35.640 --> 0:16:38.040 done that all in my job, but I've done it 0:16:38.080 --> 0:16:42.160 in these five different places. And that way you kind 0:16:42.200 --> 0:16:45.920 of build it up and then you break. You give 0:16:45.960 --> 0:16:48.720 the opportunity for them to take a chance on you 0:16:49.160 --> 0:16:52.400 because you've said, okay, you understand what their need is, 0:16:52.920 --> 0:16:55.240 but you've found a creative way to address that. 0:16:55.560 --> 0:16:58.720 I remember when I wanted to get to management and 0:16:58.760 --> 0:17:00.400 I hadn't been a manager, and it's a zero to 0:17:00.400 --> 0:17:03.880 one move, as you suggested, and I pitched my team 0:17:03.960 --> 0:17:06.560 on us getting some NBA interns because I knew nobody 0:17:06.600 --> 0:17:09.280 would want to manage them. So once we got the interns, 0:17:09.680 --> 0:17:12.159 I got the interns, and so for the summer. You know, 0:17:12.240 --> 0:17:14.440 at this point I'd probably read twenty books on leadership, 0:17:14.440 --> 0:17:16.480 and these two poor NBA interns came in. I was like, 0:17:16.520 --> 0:17:19.439 sit down, You're about to be managed like you wouldn't believe. 0:17:19.480 --> 0:17:21.359 But then you get a small piece of it, you 0:17:21.359 --> 0:17:35.080 get a jumping off point. Yes, we go next to 0:17:35.160 --> 0:17:36.600 Darius in Washington. 0:17:37.000 --> 0:17:39.680 I have a big interview coming up. Well, mistake to 0:17:39.760 --> 0:17:43.080 people making interviews and what are the keys to impressing someone? 0:17:43.359 --> 0:17:43.520 Oh? 0:17:43.600 --> 0:17:45.800 So the interview is with a type company? So what 0:17:45.840 --> 0:17:47.320 should I weary? 0:17:47.359 --> 0:17:49.200 And by the way, I went to my Google interviews 0:17:49.560 --> 0:17:52.080 how many every many years ago in a suit from 0:17:52.160 --> 0:17:55.440 NBC and I'll never forget how weird I felt walking 0:17:55.440 --> 0:17:57.440 around the Google campus and a suit and tie. So 0:17:57.880 --> 0:17:58.760 we can help you. 0:17:58.720 --> 0:18:02.280 Darius, Darius question, and as I said at the early part, 0:18:02.800 --> 0:18:06.680 interviewing is sort of my hobby and passion. 0:18:06.760 --> 0:18:08.560 How many thousands of interviews have you done? 0:18:08.720 --> 0:18:14.159 I've estimated that I've done now approaching fifteen thousand interviews 0:18:15.119 --> 0:18:17.239 I wrote. I wrote an article on LinkedIn. I think 0:18:17.280 --> 0:18:21.000 it was my number one read article, I think four 0:18:21.080 --> 0:18:25.439 hundred thousand reads, and the title of the article was 0:18:26.160 --> 0:18:30.480 interviewing to live living to interview. Okay, and I've been 0:18:30.520 --> 0:18:34.760 in so many interviews and as I said earlier, being 0:18:35.720 --> 0:18:36.040 this is. 0:18:36.000 --> 0:18:38.720 The number one interviewer in the world. So what do 0:18:38.760 --> 0:18:39.320 we need to know? 0:18:39.560 --> 0:18:43.960 First of all, the interviewer, they're just they're trying to 0:18:43.960 --> 0:18:49.000 solve a problems, just like open job exactly, and so 0:18:49.280 --> 0:18:53.000 they're looking to do If you recognize you can be 0:18:53.119 --> 0:18:57.320 the solution to their problem, then it changes the power dynamic, 0:18:57.359 --> 0:18:59.960 It changes your mentality. You're not nervous, you're trying to 0:19:00.240 --> 0:19:03.520 understand what it is. So a few tips on that. 0:19:04.400 --> 0:19:09.440 Number one is try and really if you can research 0:19:09.520 --> 0:19:14.240 the person that you're going to be interviewing with. Now 0:19:14.280 --> 0:19:17.800 in this wide information world that we all live in, 0:19:18.280 --> 0:19:21.520 you might not know, but that's possible. You know, to 0:19:21.560 --> 0:19:23.359 ask someone in advance to be set up. Who am 0:19:23.359 --> 0:19:27.439 I interviewing with? Number two here's some There's been tons 0:19:27.480 --> 0:19:31.760 of research on interviewing, and this is something to take 0:19:31.800 --> 0:19:35.399 advantage of when you're the interviewee, but something to be 0:19:35.560 --> 0:19:40.640 cautious of when you're doing the interviewing. Most people make 0:19:40.680 --> 0:19:44.199 a decision in their first five minutes, even in their 0:19:44.240 --> 0:19:48.840 first three misure and the psychology psychological research shows that 0:19:49.280 --> 0:19:52.040 people make a decision in the first three to five minutes, 0:19:52.280 --> 0:19:55.159 and then they spend the next twenty five minutes or 0:19:55.359 --> 0:19:58.679 forty five minutes, whatever it's scheduled, looking for data to 0:19:58.760 --> 0:20:00.760 support the decision that the I've already made. 0:20:00.960 --> 0:20:03.520 We've talked about Daniel Connerman and Daniel Conoman and show 0:20:03.560 --> 0:20:05.520 all of his research shows the way that we make 0:20:05.520 --> 0:20:07.679 these instinctual, emotional decisions. 0:20:07.800 --> 0:20:10.639 And by the way, sometimes those decisions are not bad. 0:20:11.840 --> 0:20:15.920 But as an interviewer I train people on this all 0:20:15.960 --> 0:20:19.359 the time. You really have to resist that and be 0:20:19.600 --> 0:20:25.639 aware of it and look for real situational situational data, 0:20:26.320 --> 0:20:30.080 behavioral data, cultural data. But most people don't do that. 0:20:30.200 --> 0:20:33.479 Most people will in the first five minutes, which means 0:20:33.520 --> 0:20:38.199 that you really need to have your opening answer. You 0:20:38.280 --> 0:20:40.960 need to when you if it's in person or on zoom. 0:20:41.400 --> 0:20:43.760 How you introduce yourself, how you sit down, how you 0:20:43.800 --> 0:20:47.160 shake a hand, what you're wearing is essential because they're 0:20:47.200 --> 0:20:50.640 going to have a huge impression in the first thirty seconds. 0:20:50.680 --> 0:20:56.000 So the opening is key. So whatever they whatever they ask, 0:20:56.160 --> 0:20:58.960 So Mike, tell me about yourself or you know, why 0:20:59.000 --> 0:21:01.080 are you interested in this? You want to have you 0:21:01.119 --> 0:21:03.480 want to practice in front of a mirror. You want 0:21:03.520 --> 0:21:07.960 your two minute opening statement, which basically quickly tells your 0:21:08.000 --> 0:21:11.800 story in like two minutes maybe three minutes, who you are, 0:21:11.880 --> 0:21:13.920