Speaker 1: All the media.
Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to take it up. And here I'm
Speaker 2: Andrew Sage and I'm back with James.
Speaker 3: It's me again.
Speaker 2: Welcome back.
Speaker 3: Yeah, good to be here.
Speaker 2: Great to have you once again, offer you to have me.
Speaker 2: I'm not sure the dynamic is here.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I mean there were. It's nice to be together.
Speaker 2: It's an egalitarian dynamic. You know, we're both having each
Speaker 2: other in a sense.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we're sharing this podcast.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think there are a lot of concepts that
Speaker 2: it's good to grasp to get a sense of how
Speaker 2: this world works. Kind of continuing from the previous episode
Speaker 2: where we spoke about all the different ways that we
Speaker 2: can divide up the world and understanding the world and
Speaker 2: so on. Today's sort of pursuit of that endeavor. I
Speaker 2: wanted to get into a particular concept that is so
Speaker 2: benign yet supervsive in this system, and it's the idea
Speaker 2: of externalization. Do you get what I mean by that?
Speaker 3: Yeah, like making people of things other.
Speaker 2: Yes, But specifically, I think I want to address how
Speaker 2: capitalism persists by pushing harm onto the other, yeah, onto
Speaker 2: the someone or something else, shifting the costs of particular actions,
Speaker 2: either environmentally socially or economically. I think the easiest example
Speaker 2: I could point too is how a company may choose
Speaker 2: to save on disposal costs by dumping their waste into
Speaker 2: a river, which can thus poison the water supply, the ecosystem,
Speaker 2: and the health of all those human and non human
Speaker 2: lives who rely upon or live near that river. Do
Speaker 2: you have another example you could probably point to?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean there are lots of them. One of
Speaker 3: them that I think of a lot is like how
Speaker 3: in the US, rightly, products that we can't recycle or
Speaker 3: that we can't landfill, we will literally ship to somewhere
Speaker 3: else to be dumped. Like, our consumption creates so much
Speaker 3: excess and so much waste, and we can't be confronted
Speaker 3: with that waste, so we tip it to play. This
Speaker 3: is where people consume less.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's uh, I mean you see, I don't know
Speaker 2: if you've seen any of the footage of some of
Speaker 2: these places, their whole costs of fast fashion waste for
Speaker 2: example in Africa, or just eweiste leaching into the soil.
Speaker 2: It's really quite tragic. Yeah.
Speaker 3: I remember someone on net once was telling me that
Speaker 3: like one of the things that children did where they
Speaker 3: had come from, was they would pick through e waste,
Speaker 3: specifically charging cables to get the copper out.
Speaker 2: Mm hmm.
Speaker 3: This would result in them having these terrible injuries to
Speaker 3: their fingers because they were like prying the cables apart,
Speaker 3: and you know, over time they would get little pieces
Speaker 3: of both shards of metal embedded their fingertips.
Speaker 2: Town. Yeah, that's terrible.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a pretty pretty grim condemnation of a way
Speaker 3: of consuming.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's messed up. It's messed up, and I think
Speaker 2: when you see that sort of stuff, it's hard to
Speaker 2: unsee it. When you see that impact onto the world,
Speaker 2: it's hard to unsee it. But that's part of how
Speaker 2: this concept thrives, this externalization thrives. It's by obscure in itself. Yeah,
Speaker 2: So that's what we kind of want to do with
Speaker 2: this episode, get up a full breadth of its history,
Speaker 2: it's present, and its apparent future, so that we can
Speaker 2: not see all the different ways that this occurs. Now,
Speaker 2: this pass and on of costs may have always been
Speaker 2: an option on the table, but we can see that
Speaker 2: a lot of traditional economies did not go that route
Speaker 2: because traditional economies were often human economies. As David Greeber
Speaker 2: used the term in Debt. The first five thousand years,
Speaker 2: you know, these were economies focused on human relationships. They
Speaker 2: were embedded in kinship and land and customs and obligation
Speaker 2: and reciprocity. So what you owed was really financial. It
Speaker 2: was to enable your elder, your clan plan itself, and
Speaker 2: so you could not really avoid the costs of your
Speaker 2: actions on others, because that was at the center of
Speaker 2: it all others. But the transition to capitalism was a
Speaker 2: shift in what the economy was. It enforced the idea
Speaker 2: that everything is or should be up for sale. The
Speaker 2: economist called Polani called it the Great Transformation, when land, labor,
Speaker 2: and money were turned into fictitious commodities, treated as if
Speaker 2: they were products for sale. Plenty saw the modern state
Speaker 2: and the capitalist market economy as a package deal. Graybot
Speaker 2: also made this very clear in Debt as well. For
Speaker 2: this new kind of economy to take hold, people had
Speaker 2: to change how they thought about work and trade and
Speaker 2: relation with each other and see in the world, those
Speaker 2: conditions had to be created by the state. So you
Speaker 2: could look at how electritional economies and commons had to
Speaker 2: be disrupted to force the shift. In England, you had
Speaker 2: people pushed off of common land that they had use
Speaker 2: for centuries, and they had no choice but to sell
Speaker 2: their labor to survive and go in to the factories.
Speaker 2: We have to remember that it never started in the factories.
Speaker 2: That actually started in the colonies. This dispossession of people
Speaker 2: and from place started through that colonization process. Already amplified
Speaker 2: through that colonization process extracting the wealth of people or
Speaker 2: of labor, of land, of resources from one place to
Speaker 2: concentrate it in another, to displace people and land and
Speaker 2: costs and se Colonialism was capitalism sort of training ground
Speaker 2: for externalization. You plunder a little bit over here, you
Speaker 2: profit a little bit over there. And this is really
Speaker 2: where we get to the core of capitalist externalization. With
Speaker 2: the shifting of the costs on a small scale that
Speaker 2: looks like the river pollution example. From the global scale,
Speaker 2: it looks like what will steam is getting into with
Speaker 2: world systems theory. How the wealth and stability the coronations
Speaker 2: depends on the exploitation of the periphery. So slavery and
Speaker 2: genocide and ecological ruin all of these are costs that
Speaker 2: create the wealth that the core enjoys. But it's made
Speaker 2: invisible to that core. Because when you're part of an
Speaker 2: ongoing relationship with community, with land, with ecology, with people,
Speaker 2: the actions have consequences that matter. They reverberate, you can
Speaker 2: feel them, and that demands a level of responsibility on
Speaker 2: your part. But when you take the things that have
Speaker 2: been woven into relationship and turn them into plain old transactions,
Speaker 2: those transactions can then offload the costs, offload the consequences,
Speaker 2: make them someone else's problem. So, yeah, cloven is very
Speaker 2: affordable now, but it's affordable because somebody somewhere was underpaid
Speaker 2: and overworked. The smartphone. It's convenient, it's useful, successible, but
Speaker 2: it's parts of mind and the dangerous conditions. You know,
Speaker 2: your food delicious, nutritious, not exactly affordable these days, but
Speaker 2: it's picked by hands that cannot afford that same meal.
Speaker 2: So the harms of these systems, the harms of these actions,
Speaker 2: of this level of consumption doesn't cease to exist. It's
Speaker 2: just externalized. So it could be rendered invisible to one
Speaker 2: point of view. Yeah, and it's not something that can
Speaker 2: be set up without a fight. You know, people would
Speaker 2: resist enclosures were met with resistance. Colonizations make with resistance
Speaker 2: and even to the workers strike. You know, people do
Speaker 2: fight back. It's not just this sweeping and nevitable process.
Speaker 2: But because of the collaboration between state and capital, that
Speaker 2: collusion of status and capitalist interests, the whole system has
Speaker 2: managed to persist thus far. It's a very formidable forward
Speaker 2: dealing with So we can set it back here and there,
Speaker 2: but we have not defeated it yet. Yeah, and I
Speaker 2: say yet, because you know, as we get into there
Speaker 2: are ways to loosen its script. I think what's fascinating
Speaker 2: about capitalistic externalization today is just how much it has
Speaker 2: skilled and got more sophisticated in terms of the work
Speaker 2: that makes the world run. The most essential labor is
Speaker 2: often the most invisible and undervalued and precurious labor. You know,
Speaker 2: where we're talking about the work that's necessary to clothe ourselves,
Speaker 2: the work that's necessary to feed ourselves, the work is
Speaker 2: necessary to build infrastructure, such as in the Gulf States
Speaker 2: where you have litual modern slavery taking place to build
Speaker 2: up those countries where they're talking about gig work, transportation delivery,
Speaker 2: that sort of thing, or reproductive work stuff like what
Speaker 2: it's called housewife y or domestic labor. So you can
Speaker 2: think of other examples as well.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I like the one you gave about your cell phone, right,
Speaker 3: like those rare earth materials. Like, it's not some slick,
Speaker 3: safe mining operation that brings serves out the ground. It's
Speaker 3: human hands in dangerous conditions that kill people.
Speaker 2: Exactly, poisoned people. It's not even necessarily a quick death.
Speaker 2: It's often a slow, yeah, lifelong death.
Speaker 3: And it poisons that part of the world for generator.
Speaker 3: We could stop right now, and it would take generations
Speaker 3: for the damage to stop, exactly.
Speaker 2: That's the thing about destruction, right, destruction can be very quick,
Speaker 2: as the rebuilding that can take a long time. Yeah,
Speaker 2: you know, if you look at how quickly Gazo has
Speaker 2: been flattened versus how long it's going to take to
Speaker 2: recover from that, it's like nine and.
Speaker 3: D yeah, yeah, yeah like it. I mean I'm very
Speaker 3: familiar with that particular example, right, Like how quickly you
Speaker 3: can destroy something with a bomb from an aeroplane and
Speaker 3: how hard people had to work to build it. In
Speaker 3: October of twenty three, I was in Kurdistan, and like,
Speaker 3: I know how hard people work to build at Rijaba, right,
Speaker 3: to try and build a little island of democracy without
Speaker 3: the state, in a place where the state has been
Speaker 3: weaponized against tons of different ethnic groups who are not Arab,
Speaker 3: and even against Arab people who didn't agree with the
Speaker 3: state's particular line a thing. And one night, you know,
Speaker 3: like the power station has gone, they bombed while I
Speaker 3: was there, like an oxygen bottling plant for people who
Speaker 3: need supplemental oxygen, either temporarily or permanently, and like it's
Speaker 3: gone now. And now to build that back up in
Speaker 3: a world where you are largely alienated from the system
Speaker 3: of states in capital, right, you're trying to build stuff
Speaker 3: back up as much as you can from networks of
Speaker 3: solidarity and ingenuity, and that takes years and yeah, yeah,
Speaker 3: but it's not visible.
Speaker 2: And that's not even getting into the emotional and mental
Speaker 2: tool of something like that. Yeah yeah, Oh that can
Speaker 2: be a setback as well. Yeah, when we're not even
Speaker 2: talking about resources, we're talking about Yeah that loss, Yeah
Speaker 2: that that that pain, Yeah, yeah, a pain. It made
Speaker 2: even worse when the skilled people, skilled workers who were
Speaker 2: responsible for upkeeping such something like that also whiped up
Speaker 2: by that same bomb. It makes it all the more
Speaker 2: difficult to recover.
Speaker 3: Yeah, or drawn away right by the conditions of becoming
Speaker 3: a liverable. So you have this like brain drain, where
Speaker 3: people who have skills that are considered to be commercially
Speaker 3: valuable have an opportunity to leave. The people who who
Speaker 3: don't have those have the opportunity to stay or don't
Speaker 3: have the opportunity to leave, I guess, like or even like,
Speaker 3: you know, the US made a different version of externalization,
Speaker 3: I guess, But like the US made a big thing
Speaker 3: of how it defeated the Islamic state in you know,
Speaker 3: twenty nineteen, I guess. I can't remember when the last
Speaker 3: Atlan Alba goose was, I think twenty nineteen. But like
Speaker 3: we externalized it off Lord, the cost of that struggle, Yeah,
Speaker 3: the dying part, Like, yeah, US pilots did a whole
Speaker 3: lot of killing, but the dying part that, yeah, we
Speaker 3: externalized that right to Kurdish and Arab and the Syrian fodder. Yeah,
Speaker 3: to people who would whose lives didn't matter.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: And like I remember a time standing in a cemetery
Speaker 3: there just looking at lines and lines of graves, and
Speaker 3: I just left the house of someone who's thirteen year
Speaker 3: old son was killed in a drone strike and just
Speaker 3: thinking like each of these is a mother burying her child.
Speaker 3: That like we essentially asked for the most part, right like,
Speaker 3: to do that. We said, hey, what you guys do
Speaker 3: the dying part because we don't want to like it
Speaker 3: kind of sucks, sucks for the United States and Britain
Speaker 3: in Iraq and Afghanistan, so we'd like someone else to
Speaker 3: die now. And then you know, here we are a
Speaker 3: few years later, right and like the night before Turkey
Speaker 3: has been bombing the place where I'm looking at these graves,
Speaker 3: and the US ain't doing shit to help, right Like,
Speaker 3: even though these people had like made this massive sacrifice,
Speaker 3: the US wasn't like, yeah, we're your friends. It's not
Speaker 3: a friendship relationship, you know, Like it's it's like you said,
Speaker 3: I forget an interaction, look like a yeah, purchase more
Speaker 3: than a solidarity based thing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And once again we really see that core externalizing
Speaker 2: its costs onto periphery. And we see that both in
Speaker 2: the sense of on the global stage between countries or
Speaker 2: between populations cores and peripheres, but even internally within countries.
Speaker 2: As we've mentioned in the previous episode talking about that
Speaker 2: divide between the core and the periphery where you have
Speaker 2: but a lot of people have called the economies biggest trick,
Speaker 2: you know, your socialized failures and privatize profits. Yeah. So
Speaker 2: in two thousand and eight to find and Shall crash,
Speaker 2: people were evicted, but the balanks got built out and
Speaker 2: the early stages of COVID corporations got relief. Gig workers
Speaker 2: were exposed. Yeah. You know, in the process of austerity
Speaker 2: resulting from neoliberalism, social services get cut in order to
Speaker 2: balance the books, but there's never any consideration of or
Speaker 2: the straight cuting profits. Yeah, and that's the one thing
Speaker 2: that can never go down.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, exactly, I think or even like within you know,
Speaker 3: we all all food come from the soil at some point, right,
Speaker 3: But like I can't tell you how many people I
Speaker 3: know that my family are in agriculture, right, who have
Speaker 3: died or lost limbs on farms. It's the same is
Speaker 3: true if you're in the mining industry, right, Like, that's
Speaker 3: not something that's visible. You know, you don't like go
Speaker 3: to the supermarket and bite your bread, right, and you
Speaker 3: don't think that someone got their arm in the combine
Speaker 3: harvester when they were doing the fee that went to
Speaker 3: the flower that made your loaf of bread that costs
Speaker 3: one dollars ninety cents, and now that person doesn't have
Speaker 3: an arm.
Speaker 2: It's invisibilized.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's the same thing when you see like
Speaker 2: these natural disasters taking on place, right, floods or burnings,
Speaker 2: right when California is on file and when Pakistan is
Speaker 2: completely flooded out. Those are the consequences of the actions
Speaker 2: of corporations, of the actions of this entire global economic system.
Speaker 2: And meanwhile, the corporations are getting carbon credits to continue
Speaker 2: doing what they were always doing. Yeah, you know, and
Speaker 2: so the actual consequences of what they're doing, they're paying
Speaker 2: for carbon credits, but the actual consequences of what they're
Speaker 2: doing are being paid for by the communities that are
Speaker 2: displaced by the consequences of this climate change.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, And we never talk about when we talk
Speaker 3: about migration, right, Like that's a great the climate change
Speaker 3: is a great example that we don't talk about how
Speaker 3: the bulk of people coming to the United States are
Speaker 3: coming from the place is most heavily impacted by climate change.
Speaker 2: Yep.
Speaker 3: Or like I was in the Marshall Islands a few
Speaker 3: years ago, and there will be no more Marshall Islands
Speaker 3: within our lifetime, yeah, because of the consequences and massive
Speaker 3: corporations have made, but like they don't have any agency.
Speaker 3: It made me really like it was hard because they're
Speaker 3: doing stuff like they use a to get it to
Speaker 3: get around the atolls, right, they use little like two
Speaker 3: strikeout boards, and they're trying to build solar canoes instead
Speaker 3: and solar boats so that it's it's cleaner energy. Right,
Speaker 3: Like less than a percent of a percent of the
Speaker 3: world's carbon emissions come from the Marshall Islands and they're
Speaker 3: like trying their hardest to do their part to reduce
Speaker 3: their emissions, but like they can't make the impact that
Speaker 3: needs to be made just stop the sea levels rising
Speaker 3: and arguably like when the world had a chance to
Speaker 3: do so, like you see them speaking at the United
Speaker 3: Nations and then the UN being like the line has
Speaker 3: to go up. Yep, that means your island has to sink.
Speaker 2: And that's why you know reform is not in kneph
Speaker 2: for be enough, because this is how the system is designed.
Speaker 2: It's designed to push risk downward and outward, onto the
Speaker 2: working class, onto the global south, and onto the next generation.
Speaker 2: Because that's another dimension of externalization right time, even our
Speaker 2: future gets externalized in a sense. You know, all of
Speaker 2: our resources are limited or finite resources that can used
Speaker 2: up now at an increase in velocity. Right, Yeah, the
Speaker 2: national debt of some countries is being sunking further and
Speaker 2: further into now right the emissions the center of all
Speaker 2: those emissions now fossil fuels, you know, all that stuff,
Speaker 2: because we don't have to do the consequences, so the
Speaker 2: future don't have to do the consequences. As the system
Speaker 2: digging its own grave, because even though the system needs stability,
Speaker 2: it will sacrifice future stability for present profits. It will
Speaker 2: sacrifice nature, which is the basis of the economy. It
Speaker 2: will sacrifice nature to the economy in service of the economy.
Speaker 2: It will treat natures disposable and infinite and something external
Speaker 2: to the way that we run things as if, as
Speaker 2: if it's not going to catch up to us, and
Speaker 2: so as collapse will accelerate as the consequences become more
Speaker 2: apparent on the sacrifice zones of the periphery, the powers
Speaker 2: are beyond interested in fixing it. You know, they're going
Speaker 2: to fortify themselves against it through border patrols, through climate
Speaker 2: walls through militarized disaster response. They're going to double down.
Speaker 3: Yeah, make it harder and harder to see the consequences
Speaker 3: of excessive consumption of capitalism, like until the levy breaks,
Speaker 3: I guess literally or metaphorically.
Speaker 2: Yep, literally or metaphorically. And I want people to keep
Speaker 2: in mind who are listening. You know, this Quan periphery
Speaker 2: is un just the periphery out there, it's also the
Speaker 2: periphery within that we're talking about in terms of consequences.
Speaker 2: The internal dumping grounds, whether it be you know, indigenous
Speaker 2: reservations or the neighborhoods of black and round people, or
Speaker 2: the prisons are often serve as the holding tanks for
Speaker 2: discontent and for poverty and for all the nasty consequences
Speaker 2: that society doesn't want to deal with because of the
Speaker 2: way society has been structured.
Speaker 3: Yeah, or just like under the bridge near your house,
Speaker 3: you know, like like we exactly treat our exactly. Like
Speaker 3: San Diego has this particular legisative initiative, which I find
Speaker 3: like obviously it's fucked, but also like it's very so
Speaker 3: it's so obvious, like they passed to think or of
Speaker 3: camping there where they're going to make it illegal to
Speaker 3: be unhoused on the sidewalk. You're like, it's a band.
Speaker 3: It's a band against camping on the sidewalk, right, And
Speaker 3: all it does it doesn't provide housing for people, and
Speaker 3: that's it doesn't solve the issue. It moves people. Our
Speaker 3: cities very hilly, and we have lots of canyons in
Speaker 3: which they can't build, so it moves people into these canyons. Wow,
Speaker 3: and it just makes the same people invisible, right, Like
Speaker 3: that's the goal that the goal is not to provide
Speaker 3: any form of solution. It's just to move these people
Speaker 3: away so they don't have to be poor in public.
Speaker 3: And so the people who who use homes as a
Speaker 3: vehicle for wealth creation, not as a place for humans
Speaker 3: to live, don't have to see the consequences of their actions.
Speaker 2: Exactly. It's all about what they want, right I mean, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: You know, in a sense, depending on how you look
Speaker 2: at it, any one of us can be a core,
Speaker 2: and any one of us can be a periphery. You know,
Speaker 2: to a rulers, we are all the periphery that they
Speaker 2: can push their consequences onto. In another sense, you know,
Speaker 2: I am part of the periphery, and do you are
Speaker 2: part of the core, James? And in another sense, you know,
Speaker 2: I might be considered part of the core in my
Speaker 2: own country in some ways because of my class position,
Speaker 2: because of my educational background, because of some of the
Speaker 2: ways that I can be insulated, whereas you know, other ways,
Speaker 2: you know, you might be the periphree in the United
Speaker 2: States to the core, to the elites, to the ruling class.
Speaker 2: And so this isn't to diminish the very real differences
Speaker 2: between the global core and the global periphery. It wants
Speaker 2: to make it clear to those of you in the
Speaker 2: global core that you should be in solidarity with that
Speaker 2: global periphery because their consequences are ultimately your own. You know,
Speaker 2: ultimately we are all the ones who are going to
Speaker 2: be holding the costs, cleaning the mess, surviving the fallout,
Speaker 2: and then somehow tough it is because when you live
Speaker 2: with a system that is based on externalization harm, you
Speaker 2: can end up lashing out on others as well. You
Speaker 2: know that that that logic, that systemic logic becomes it
Speaker 2: o anizes, becomes part of how you navigate even your relationships.
Speaker 2: But we don't have to accept that way of doing things.
Speaker 2: The periphery, regardless of which prefer you're referring to, does
Speaker 2: hold the potential for change. And so, you know, in
Speaker 2: the beginning when we were speaking of externalization of economic
Speaker 2: and economic dimension specifically, it's important to understand capitalism relies
Speaker 2: on these flowers, these very smooth flows of labor, energy,
Speaker 2: and resources and data from preferred to core, however you
Speaker 2: define those terms, and so when we interrupt those flows,
Speaker 2: even briefly, we can shake those foundations. And that sort
Speaker 2: of approached, that effort to interrupt, is really part of
Speaker 2: what social revel is about. It's how we make the
Speaker 2: changes that we want to see. Yeah, you know, I
Speaker 2: speak a social revolution as not some flashy one time
Speaker 2: event or moment in history, but as an ongoing process,
Speaker 2: as something that has taking place right now at different levels,
Speaker 2: in different ways all over the world. And so we
Speaker 2: can speak of the things we do to oppose the
Speaker 2: current system, like these strikes and blockades that have taken
Speaker 2: place around the world, the indigenous land defense struggles that
Speaker 2: are taking place around the world, they rent strikes and
Speaker 2: mutual aid that have taken place around the world. And
Speaker 2: then beyond that sort of opposition, talking about the things
Speaker 2: we do to propose and alternative, to construct the kind
Speaker 2: of world and the kind of life that we need,
Speaker 2: so we don't have to rely on these systems anymore
Speaker 2: that exploit us. To make these systems obsolete, to build
Speaker 2: the cooperatives, to build work a control, collectives and disaster
Speaker 2: response out side of the state, to sort of crack
Speaker 2: the system, and to create in those cracks the space
Speaker 2: where a different system, a new life can grow. Yeah,
Speaker 2: to not become one big machine or one centralized struggle
Speaker 2: or movement, but to multiply and interconnect and adapt to
Speaker 2: the niche circumstances we're all to den with like my celium,
Speaker 2: you know, like the mushrooms.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that technology, Like it's sort of you're like
Speaker 3: opening a crack thing paraphrases Zappatista texts right like and
Speaker 3: they have this either this phrase I like from Supermandente
Speaker 3: Marcos that translates just like, we don't have to change
Speaker 3: the world because we're building another one right now, and
Speaker 3: you know, you don't have to. We don't have to conquer.
Speaker 3: Like there's this obsession on the left with like revolutionists,
Speaker 3: like you said, like an act that occurs at a
Speaker 3: point in.
Speaker 2: Time capital our revolution, yes.
Speaker 3: Yeah, as opposed to like building the world where the
Speaker 3: things that we don't wish to see become irrelevant through
Speaker 3: our actions every day. Like you use the example of
Speaker 3: people being an house, which I mentioned before, right, Like
Speaker 3: the way we build a world where those people aren't
Speaker 3: externalized is by not externalizing those people. Like you know,
Speaker 3: it's not hard to do. You probably talk to human
Speaker 3: beings every day anyway, Like, just continue to do that,
Speaker 3: you know, take your neighbor a sandwich, and like that's
Speaker 3: the revolution that you can build slowly, and maybe it's
Speaker 3: not as exciting. It's like, you know, the one way
Speaker 3: you I've attended the revolutions where people fight against the state,
Speaker 3: but you still have to do the hard work. You
Speaker 3: still have to do the like day to day building
Speaker 3: of a different way of relating to one another, even
Speaker 3: in those revolutions where things change quickly and violently exactly.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And I mean even before we get to
Speaker 2: that point, you know, to be able to change the
Speaker 2: way relate to each other, it starts with mindset. It
Speaker 2: starts with shifting our realm of possibility is you know,
Speaker 2: not necessarily killing the memes of capitalism. And I mean
Speaker 2: memes in the sensor. Richard Dawkins originally use the term
Speaker 2: as these cultural ideas that persist, that spread that adapt
Speaker 2: It's difficult to kill those those memes, but you can
Speaker 2: replace them with better memes. And so replacing and popularizing
Speaker 2: those memes those ideas, you are challenging the idea that
Speaker 2: you know rest is laziness, you know, challenging the idea
Speaker 2: that you know the end goal is profit, that there's
Speaker 2: no other system besides Catholics, and that that's something better,
Speaker 2: isn't on the horizon. Shift in that sense, reality I
Speaker 2: think is a very important part of the struggle, and
Speaker 2: with every act, because I think ideas have to be
Speaker 2: accompanied by act. With every act, I think it helps
Speaker 2: to break this, to cut off, to put an end
Speaker 2: to that externalization. Because even though capitalists and will continue
Speaker 2: to try to push its harm outward and downward, are
Speaker 2: we and away from view, we can continue to challenge
Speaker 2: it inwardly, to push our struggle upward and to center
Speaker 2: our struggle in the center of you, so we can
Speaker 2: see it, so that we can feel us, and so
Speaker 2: that we can act against it. And that's all I
Speaker 2: have for this episode. All forward to all the people peace.
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