WEBVTT - Archie Shepp: Activist of the Avant-Garde 0:00:15.436 --> 0:00:23.836 Pushkin. Before we get started, let's talk about Pushnick. Pushnick 0:00:23.916 --> 0:00:28.556 is a subscription program available exclusively on Apple podcast subscriptions. 0:00:29.076 --> 0:00:32.276 Members will get access to bonus content like extended versions 0:00:32.276 --> 0:00:35.556 of Our Quest Love and Beastie Boys episodes. You also 0:00:35.556 --> 0:00:38.596 get uninterrupted ads, free listening to many of your favorite 0:00:38.596 --> 0:00:43.156 podcasts like Revisionist History, Kashner Retails, and The Happiness Lab. 0:00:43.796 --> 0:00:46.196 You can try it for free for seven days. Sign 0:00:46.276 --> 0:00:55.956 up for Pushnick and Apple Podcasts subscriptions. Archie Shep's been 0:00:55.956 --> 0:00:58.516 a leader in what's known as avant garde jazz since 0:00:58.556 --> 0:01:03.476 the nineteen sixties. He famously played tenor sacks alongside John Coltrane, 0:01:03.876 --> 0:01:07.756 Lee Morgan, and the great free jazz pianist Cecil Taylor. 0:01:08.756 --> 0:01:11.956 But like some musicians who are consider jazz artists, eighty 0:01:11.956 --> 0:01:14.436 four year old Shep doesn't consider the music he plays 0:01:14.516 --> 0:01:18.556 jazz at all. He calls it African American music to 0:01:18.596 --> 0:01:22.796 acknowledge the Black Americans who created the tradition. Shep has 0:01:22.836 --> 0:01:27.276 been politically engaged for his entire sixty year career. Every 0:01:27.276 --> 0:01:30.196 one of his dozens of albums touches on African Americans 0:01:30.196 --> 0:01:33.716 struggle to attain equal rights In some fashion one of 0:01:33.796 --> 0:01:37.476 my favorite albums. For instance, Attica Blues takes a critical 0:01:37.516 --> 0:01:40.916 look at the Attica prison riots of nineteen seventy one. 0:01:41.516 --> 0:01:44.116 On today's episode, I talked to Archie Shep about how 0:01:44.116 --> 0:01:47.916 an assignment he received in the third grade sparked his activism. 0:01:48.516 --> 0:01:51.476 Shep also talks about his relationship with Coltrane, who he 0:01:51.516 --> 0:01:54.676 says never took his horn out of his mouth, and 0:01:54.756 --> 0:01:58.436 he also recalls the rhetorical power of Malcolm X and 0:01:58.516 --> 0:02:01.036 the lasting image of seeing him speak to a sea 0:02:01.116 --> 0:02:08.076 of blackheads on the streets of Harta. This is broken 0:02:08.116 --> 0:02:11.316 record liner note for the digital age. I'm justin Richmond. 0:02:16.636 --> 0:02:20.996 Here's my conversation with Archie Shepp. I first heard your 0:02:21.116 --> 0:02:24.436 music when I was probably fifteen years old. Sixteen years old, 0:02:24.636 --> 0:02:29.196 I discovered Attica Blues, Yeah, and it was at this 0:02:29.276 --> 0:02:32.316 time when I was just developing a love of jazz 0:02:32.396 --> 0:02:37.196 music and I heard Attica Blues and it changed my 0:02:37.316 --> 0:02:41.956 whole idea of what people were doing then and what 0:02:42.076 --> 0:02:45.396 jazz could be. And obviously there was a journey to 0:02:45.556 --> 0:02:47.716 that album, but I thought it could be a good 0:02:47.716 --> 0:02:49.636 place to start one because it was my starting point 0:02:49.676 --> 0:02:52.436 with your music that I've since dived real deep into 0:02:52.476 --> 0:02:55.476 and fallen in love with. But it also really matches 0:02:55.516 --> 0:03:00.276 sort of the tenor of the present time here in America. Well, 0:03:00.356 --> 0:03:03.956 the idea was given to me by my drummer at 0:03:03.956 --> 0:03:07.836 the time, Bieber Harris, who suggested that it might be 0:03:07.876 --> 0:03:13.196 a good idea to commemorate what it going on in Attica. 0:03:13.756 --> 0:03:17.996 And I thought it was a good idea, and at 0:03:17.996 --> 0:03:22.356 that point I began to write music and put together 0:03:22.516 --> 0:03:25.436 the idea for the album. One of the reasons that 0:03:25.476 --> 0:03:28.916 it really kind of opened my eyes to what jazz 0:03:28.956 --> 0:03:32.836 could be because there's these kind of incredible vocals on 0:03:33.276 --> 0:03:36.596 that album that are unlike other vocal jazz. It's not 0:03:36.676 --> 0:03:38.436 like a vocal jazz record the way you might think 0:03:38.476 --> 0:03:41.956 of an Ella Fitzgerald album sounding right, And I know 0:03:41.996 --> 0:03:44.436 your drummer wrote those lyrics. Did he come to you 0:03:44.436 --> 0:03:47.236 with the lyrics first? When he had the idea, Well, 0:03:47.236 --> 0:03:50.316 he didn't actually write the lyrics. I wrote the lyrics, 0:03:50.876 --> 0:03:54.076 and I gave him credit for it because at the 0:03:54.156 --> 0:03:57.116 time he was trying to become a member of BMI 0:03:58.076 --> 0:04:02.876 and he had to have some document recorded, and I 0:04:02.916 --> 0:04:06.796 gave him cridit for the words the lyrics, though I 0:04:06.876 --> 0:04:10.916 actually wrote the lyrics. Did you write them before you 0:04:11.156 --> 0:04:17.036 compose the music? Well, at the same time, some of 0:04:17.596 --> 0:04:24.236 the lyrics were suggested to me by him and just 0:04:24.436 --> 0:04:29.476 in conversation. He had a worry of describing things about 0:04:29.556 --> 0:04:37.196 the natural forces and various things that he would say 0:04:37.236 --> 0:04:41.596 that gave me an idea of what I wanted to put. 0:04:42.116 --> 0:04:46.516 I wanted to construct the lyrics only when the natural 0:04:46.636 --> 0:04:52.356 forces told the world it's getting old. Do I worry? Yeah, 0:04:52.396 --> 0:04:55.836 I worry? Can you dig it about the human soul? 0:04:56.476 --> 0:05:03.476 So some of some of his conversation influenced my writing 0:05:03.556 --> 0:05:08.796 of the lyrics. Was it common for you or uncommon 0:05:08.836 --> 0:05:12.196 for you you to sort of derive inspiration for a 0:05:12.316 --> 0:05:17.196 song or an album from political happenings of the time. Well, 0:05:17.236 --> 0:05:21.956 I've been politically engaged just about all my career. All 0:05:21.996 --> 0:05:27.596 my albums have some make some illusion to struggle for 0:05:27.796 --> 0:05:35.116 African Americans to attain equal equal rights. So it was 0:05:35.276 --> 0:05:43.676 not unusual that Nattica Blues was dedicated and focused very 0:05:43.756 --> 0:05:48.756 intensely on the on the civil rights struggle. Because I 0:05:48.836 --> 0:05:55.156 was an activist on the streets with a very Baraka 0:05:55.276 --> 0:06:01.196 and people Calvin Hicks, people like that, and we were 0:06:01.356 --> 0:06:05.436 frequently on the streets of Harlem, with handing out the 0:06:05.556 --> 0:06:12.076 handbills and occasionally making speeches on the street to the people. 0:06:13.076 --> 0:06:19.716 So it was not unusual that Attica was so focused. Well, 0:06:19.716 --> 0:06:24.076 when did you first become politically aware in terms of 0:06:24.116 --> 0:06:29.076 the African American struggle for dignity, equality, freedom. There's a 0:06:29.196 --> 0:06:32.596 very young man I remember in the third grade the 0:06:32.676 --> 0:06:37.356 teacher asked us to write a paper about anything. Couldn't 0:06:37.356 --> 0:06:41.316 write about much at that age, but I wrote a 0:06:41.316 --> 0:06:46.316 paper about the struggle of black people to be free. 0:06:46.516 --> 0:06:49.996 And she was really quite amazed, and she asked me 0:06:50.076 --> 0:06:53.396 where did I get those ideas from? And I said 0:06:53.476 --> 0:06:58.196 from my father and the man upstairs. It was Billy Myers, 0:06:58.236 --> 0:07:02.716 who rented an apartment in my family's house. My father 0:07:02.796 --> 0:07:07.076 and he used to on the weekends would discuss political events. 0:07:07.556 --> 0:07:13.076 So I was very early inversed in in the civil 0:07:13.236 --> 0:07:18.916 rights dialogue. That would have been maybe mid forties. Yeah, 0:07:18.956 --> 0:07:20.556 I would say a lot of people now don't think 0:07:20.596 --> 0:07:24.916 about there being a robust civil rights movement. You know, 0:07:25.356 --> 0:07:28.236 doctor King and Salma and all that is in you know, 0:07:28.276 --> 0:07:31.436 the fifties. Maybe ten years after this, well, there was 0:07:31.516 --> 0:07:35.796 no movement, but black people were very aware of the 0:07:35.916 --> 0:07:40.516 contradictions in the society, and my father and a man 0:07:40.596 --> 0:07:48.596 upstairs just to frequently discuss the inconsistencies that existed in 0:07:48.876 --> 0:07:56.036 black life, visa be the struggle to be freedom, which 0:07:56.276 --> 0:08:02.636 which was almost continual after the end slavery, we've continually 0:08:02.716 --> 0:08:08.116 fought to extricate ourselves from oppression. Your dad seems like 0:08:08.116 --> 0:08:09.916 you must have had a pretty big influence on you. 0:08:09.916 --> 0:08:12.036 I mean, you're citing him as as a person would 0:08:12.076 --> 0:08:14.236 kind of opened your mind and was you would always 0:08:14.236 --> 0:08:17.556 hear him talk about the struggle for black freedom, and 0:08:18.276 --> 0:08:22.276 I know he also played banjo. Yeah, it was. He's 0:08:22.276 --> 0:08:29.036 an influencer who playing music. And also his mother, my grandmother, 0:08:29.516 --> 0:08:34.756 Mamma Rose, was very active in civil rights affairs and 0:08:34.756 --> 0:08:41.316 and the Baptists. Black Baptists were very committed in the 0:08:41.516 --> 0:08:45.796 in the South, so they had what might have had 0:08:45.836 --> 0:08:51.316 amount to pre civil rights organizations. And then my grandmother 0:08:51.756 --> 0:08:57.836 frequented and she she read quite a bit, she ran intensely, 0:08:57.956 --> 0:09:02.956 and and her daughter, my aunt Advis was a school teacher, 0:09:03.116 --> 0:09:10.556 so I was frequently acquainted with was going on in 0:09:10.636 --> 0:09:13.636 the black community. Did your dad teach you to play 0:09:13.676 --> 0:09:18.516 your first instrument. Well, my first instrument was the banjo, 0:09:19.556 --> 0:09:22.396 and he taught me a few chords on the banjo. 0:09:23.316 --> 0:09:29.836 I later took piano lessons formerly and clarinet, and a 0:09:30.356 --> 0:09:34.716 studied a bit of saxophone with Tony Mitchell. And in 0:09:34.756 --> 0:09:37.076 the early days when you were learning banjo with your dad, 0:09:37.196 --> 0:09:41.156 what would you have been listening to or playing? Well, 0:09:41.196 --> 0:09:43.836 what he was playing? In fact, he played. He taught 0:09:43.836 --> 0:09:48.036 me the first few bars of the Charleston. The Charleston 0:09:48.156 --> 0:09:54.356 like the dance Charleston, Charleston dumped up up Babe, Dub 0:09:55.316 --> 0:10:01.836 dub d dot dot. That's James P. Johnson's. It was 0:10:01.956 --> 0:10:06.196 a dance, and it was a dance that was inspired 0:10:06.836 --> 0:10:11.076 by the music The Charleston. That's so cool. How did 0:10:11.076 --> 0:10:14.196 you end up settling on sax Well, I was a 0:10:14.356 --> 0:10:17.996 boy in school. I heard play well, we had quite 0:10:18.516 --> 0:10:25.956 a couple of very good musicians, Brinkley Blackwell, Norman Satchel, 0:10:26.796 --> 0:10:33.356 and a white white boy, George Obuletski. I believe it 0:10:33.596 --> 0:10:37.836 was quite adapted the saxophone. So I was, you might say, 0:10:37.916 --> 0:10:44.996 influenced by all three of them, especially Satchel, who one 0:10:45.076 --> 0:10:49.436 day he played for the Art in the Assembly a 0:10:49.556 --> 0:10:54.956 piece of Sunny Stitt stringing the jug and I went 0:10:55.036 --> 0:10:56.956 home and I told my mother I want to get 0:10:56.996 --> 0:11:00.956 a saxophone. I was about fifteen at that age. After 0:11:01.156 --> 0:11:05.156 that time, I had been studying piano and clarinet. Philadelphia 0:11:05.556 --> 0:11:10.196 is a rich jazz town. When did you start listening 0:11:10.236 --> 0:11:11.836 to jazz? When did you become aware of it? And 0:11:11.876 --> 0:11:14.556 when do you start becoming aware of the musicians who 0:11:14.636 --> 0:11:18.516 were in your city? In Philly, first, I became aware 0:11:18.516 --> 0:11:21.436 of the music, and that was from the beginning because 0:11:21.636 --> 0:11:25.396 my father played what you called so called jazz music, 0:11:26.196 --> 0:11:30.476 I called an African American music. From the very beginning, 0:11:30.556 --> 0:11:33.996 that was all I listened to. He had recordings of 0:11:34.156 --> 0:11:38.916 Duke Ellington, count By See a lot of blues recordings. 0:11:39.596 --> 0:11:44.636 So through him I became aware of what was going on, 0:11:45.476 --> 0:11:47.276 thinking about the people who are you're in your town, 0:11:47.796 --> 0:11:51.356 the Heath Brothers, Coltrane. Yeah. I heard Jimmy when I 0:11:51.476 --> 0:11:57.116 was seventeen. I believe I'd go into a concert of 0:11:57.396 --> 0:12:01.316 stand Getz. He was playing at a place called Reynolds 0:12:01.396 --> 0:12:04.676 Hall in Philadelphia, and he was there was Jimmy and 0:12:04.836 --> 0:12:09.916 Rainy and the place was packed. So they played the 0:12:09.996 --> 0:12:14.196 first set, but Reynolds Hall had a number of rooms 0:12:15.156 --> 0:12:19.836 that they rented out to private affairs, and a friend 0:12:19.876 --> 0:12:22.516 of mine who I was with at the time, Eddie Ford, 0:12:23.156 --> 0:12:26.996 we started wandering around the building and we hit on 0:12:27.596 --> 0:12:32.196 this room where there was some kind of affair going 0:12:32.276 --> 0:12:35.996 on and Jimmy Heath was playing, and I remember we 0:12:36.156 --> 0:12:40.836 were so attracted by what he played that we never 0:12:41.036 --> 0:12:44.796 went back to hear the stand guests after the intermission. 0:12:45.476 --> 0:12:50.556 And I asked Jimmy when I took the liberty to 0:12:50.676 --> 0:12:53.196 asked him if he would give me some help on 0:12:53.276 --> 0:12:59.396 the saxophone, and he said he would. I remember going 0:12:59.476 --> 0:13:02.916 to his home the following week and I found out 0:13:02.996 --> 0:13:06.236 he didn't own a saxophone. In fact, he'd been playing 0:13:06.316 --> 0:13:10.276 on a borrow at horn and I brought my sax 0:13:10.436 --> 0:13:13.476 with me and he played it. I couldn't get much 0:13:13.516 --> 0:13:16.476 shout of it, but I remember after he played it, 0:13:16.596 --> 0:13:19.276 it seemed like a ticket the life of its own. 0:13:19.396 --> 0:13:23.756 It's the color had changed the who He sort of 0:13:23.836 --> 0:13:27.236 warmed it up and hung out with him all that 0:13:27.916 --> 0:13:31.476 That afternoon he went to his jam session and played. 0:13:32.236 --> 0:13:34.436 And the next week I was going back from my 0:13:34.636 --> 0:13:39.676 lesson and his brother two d Albert answered the door 0:13:39.676 --> 0:13:42.756 and he said, Jimmy's in the joint. He was in 0:13:42.956 --> 0:13:46.916 jail and he stayed in jail for six years. WHOA, 0:13:47.036 --> 0:13:49.756 I didn't. I didn't know that part of the story. Yeah, 0:13:49.876 --> 0:13:53.116 he had. They had caught him with smoking jan on 0:13:53.236 --> 0:13:58.316 the back of a car and he was imprisoned for 0:13:59.276 --> 0:14:04.156 six years. So I never got the second lesson. Wow. 0:14:04.676 --> 0:14:07.596 So he had one lesson with him, Yeah, And that 0:14:07.836 --> 0:14:12.396 was really listening to him play, and that was quite 0:14:12.516 --> 0:14:17.996 informative by itself. But I never really formally got to 0:14:18.116 --> 0:14:21.716 study with him. I know. Not too long after that 0:14:21.876 --> 0:14:25.476 you had you were in a band with Lee Morgan. Yeah. 0:14:25.596 --> 0:14:30.476 I met Lee as a kid. I was a year 0:14:30.556 --> 0:14:34.996 older than him, but he was very advanced and he 0:14:35.196 --> 0:14:39.196 was playing with really professional music. He was a professional 0:14:39.316 --> 0:14:42.476 when I met him. He was playing with guys like 0:14:42.716 --> 0:14:46.756 C Sharp and Coltrane. He was known even though he 0:14:46.876 --> 0:14:50.396 was only fifteen or sixteen years old. I asked him 0:14:50.436 --> 0:14:54.996 to give me some help on the instrument, and he 0:14:55.156 --> 0:14:59.436 consented to do so. The first session I made with him, 0:15:00.476 --> 0:15:04.556 I had only heard stern gets really on the saxophone, 0:15:05.156 --> 0:15:10.756 and I tried to create my stand get sound, and 0:15:10.996 --> 0:15:16.796 he and his friend who were observing me. They seemed 0:15:16.796 --> 0:15:21.716 to be somewhat They thought it was rather peculiar. They 0:15:21.756 --> 0:15:27.436 didn't I don't think that they They accepted my offering. 0:15:28.436 --> 0:15:32.876 So finally he asked me to play something with him, 0:15:33.756 --> 0:15:38.516 to play a blues and I learned the blues from 0:15:38.596 --> 0:15:45.356 my father because I knew the blues instinctively. When I 0:15:45.516 --> 0:15:51.876 finished playing this my solo, he said, man, don't ever change. 0:15:53.516 --> 0:15:59.236 And that's how we developed a very lasting friendship. And 0:16:00.596 --> 0:16:03.516 when he would have blues gigs, he would call me 0:16:04.876 --> 0:16:08.996 to play with him. Because he played standards in Ballot, 0:16:09.196 --> 0:16:14.076 he had a very wide knowledge of music, but I 0:16:14.276 --> 0:16:16.716 was sort of limited to the blues. But I could 0:16:16.796 --> 0:16:19.116 play the blues. So it's like you went back to 0:16:19.236 --> 0:16:24.796 the source. Well, yeah, I used the sound that I knew. 0:16:25.676 --> 0:16:31.916 I'd heard a lot of Bevin Webster prayers through the 0:16:32.036 --> 0:16:36.116 recordings of my father, and I suppose that sounded a 0:16:36.196 --> 0:16:40.396 little bit like Ben. That was my natural sound and 0:16:40.516 --> 0:16:46.716 the sound that I later made my own. Yeah, Ben 0:16:46.796 --> 0:16:49.436 Webster's quite a quite a soulful cat man. His sound 0:16:49.596 --> 0:16:53.556 is oh yeah, soulful brother. We'll be right back with 0:16:53.636 --> 0:17:00.676 more from Archie Shep after a quick break we're back 0:17:00.716 --> 0:17:04.436 with more of my conversation with Archie Shep. So you 0:17:04.516 --> 0:17:07.236 had a bean with Lee Morgan and Carl Holmes called 0:17:07.236 --> 0:17:13.196 the Jolly Rompers. Well, in fact, I was with the 0:17:13.396 --> 0:17:18.796 Jolly Carl and John Holmes. They had a band out 0:17:18.836 --> 0:17:23.076 in Mullagrove, Pennsylvania. But I kept bugging, bugging them too 0:17:23.796 --> 0:17:26.956 to get Lee Morgan in the band. So when they 0:17:26.996 --> 0:17:34.116 got Lee, they fired me. You know, so much for 0:17:34.196 --> 0:17:36.796 trying to do a good thing, Arn'tie. Yeah, yeah, trying 0:17:36.836 --> 0:17:40.596 to help my friends get a gig. You mentioned that 0:17:40.716 --> 0:17:42.956 Lee Morgan was a year or two younger than you, 0:17:43.436 --> 0:17:46.276 but when you look at his career compared to yours, 0:17:46.716 --> 0:17:49.396 you know, his was much more sort of straight ahead. 0:17:49.676 --> 0:17:51.636 So it's funny to me that you two coming from 0:17:51.676 --> 0:17:54.716 the same town, that you, being the older of the two, 0:17:55.356 --> 0:17:57.036 kind of had this much more from the start, this 0:17:57.436 --> 0:18:02.196 very adventurous career where you were really exploring and stretching out. 0:18:02.756 --> 0:18:05.156 And not that Lee wasn't Lee was incredible, but his 0:18:05.356 --> 0:18:08.596 sound was much more in line with the hard bop 0:18:08.676 --> 0:18:12.516 sound tradition. Yeah that was because I seemed up the 0:18:12.676 --> 0:18:17.316 Cecil Taylor. Really, I went in a direction I never 0:18:17.476 --> 0:18:23.796 thought I would, in fact so called free jazz reimprovisation 0:18:25.236 --> 0:18:29.796 that was encouraged by Cecil, and he kind of opened 0:18:29.876 --> 0:18:34.516 my ears to another direction. And Cecil was a piano 0:18:34.556 --> 0:18:38.556 player and maybe also like a poet from New York. Yeah, 0:18:40.076 --> 0:18:45.516 it was one of the first to really completely dispensed 0:18:45.636 --> 0:18:53.036 with traditional harmony and tempe. And after Ornette came to 0:18:53.236 --> 0:18:57.556 New York. And I don't know, Ornette was probably doing 0:18:57.636 --> 0:19:02.636 the same thing out in California, but ct was the 0:19:02.796 --> 0:19:06.556 influence in New York. When did you first hear Cecil 0:19:06.596 --> 0:19:10.236 Taylor and what made you when you heard him gravitate 0:19:10.316 --> 0:19:14.436 towards that sound? Well, I didn't really like the sound 0:19:14.956 --> 0:19:19.156 I heard him on record, and I wasn't very impressed. 0:19:19.356 --> 0:19:25.516 My background was, as you said, very much oriented towards 0:19:25.716 --> 0:19:31.156 lee and the kind of music he played. But his 0:19:31.476 --> 0:19:35.956 bass player heard me at a jam session in New 0:19:36.076 --> 0:19:39.876 York and Cecil was looking for a saxophone player, so 0:19:40.036 --> 0:19:45.396 he recommended me to Cecil, and Cecil hired me without 0:19:46.276 --> 0:19:51.156 having really heard me, on the advice of his bass player. 0:19:51.996 --> 0:19:54.156 I met him one night on the streets in New 0:19:54.276 --> 0:19:58.356 York in the West Village, and somehow he seemed to 0:19:58.516 --> 0:20:01.796 know me though I had never been introduced to him. 0:20:02.556 --> 0:20:05.356 So you're Archie Shepp. He said, you want to make 0:20:05.396 --> 0:20:10.396 a record, and I said yeah. Almost immediately after I 0:20:10.876 --> 0:20:15.596 met him, we started rehearsing for a recording which we 0:20:15.836 --> 0:20:21.516 made the World of Cecil Taylor and I was with 0:20:21.756 --> 0:20:27.196 his man that We didn't work much for about two years, 0:20:28.076 --> 0:20:34.036 and he was quite an influence on me ideationally in 0:20:34.276 --> 0:20:38.316 terms of my ideas. And he was the first time 0:20:38.396 --> 0:20:42.236 I heard of Malcolm X was through Cecil really and 0:20:42.956 --> 0:20:49.756 we used to have discussions after rehearsals went on for hours. 0:20:50.836 --> 0:20:55.156 So he was quite quite an enormous influence on my 0:20:56.676 --> 0:21:01.996 political and social ideas. Did you ever see Malcolm speak 0:21:02.036 --> 0:21:07.876 in those days? Oh? Yeah, I heard him at Temple 0:21:07.996 --> 0:21:13.236 Number seven and then on the streets of Harlem. He 0:21:13.396 --> 0:21:19.476 spoke when one afternoon the street was crowded with the 0:21:19.556 --> 0:21:24.436 people or you could see his heads black heads, and 0:21:24.716 --> 0:21:30.476 and the police at that time were mostly white. They 0:21:30.596 --> 0:21:38.276 were in the crowd. They were read with with probably fear. 0:21:39.676 --> 0:21:46.156 And Malcolm he mounted the podium and at that time 0:21:46.236 --> 0:21:48.916 you had to have the American flag when you gave 0:21:48.956 --> 0:21:53.476 a speech. You'd probably still do, and he had this 0:21:53.596 --> 0:21:58.356 little flag that you get from Wolvers. You could hardly 0:21:58.396 --> 0:22:01.556 see it from where I was, and he planted it 0:22:01.676 --> 0:22:04.796 on the podium and he said, you see that flag. 0:22:06.116 --> 0:22:09.676 Your mother was raped under that flag in the crowd, 0:22:09.796 --> 0:22:14.076 and oh yeah, he says, your father was murdered under 0:22:14.156 --> 0:22:20.516 that plague. And the police were really visibly frightened by 0:22:21.076 --> 0:22:26.196 intimidated by his language. But he was a probable speaker, 0:22:26.396 --> 0:22:33.636 and I was immediately attracted to his discourse. Around the 0:22:33.716 --> 0:22:38.516 same time, you not only fall in with Cecil Taylor, 0:22:38.556 --> 0:22:43.396 who's ideologically expanding your horizon, but musically be expanding not 0:22:43.516 --> 0:22:46.356 only your vocabulary but the way you think of the 0:22:46.436 --> 0:22:49.676 framework for the music you play. And then you're also 0:22:49.756 --> 0:22:54.796 hearing Malcolm X speaking Harlem and at the time, no 0:22:54.916 --> 0:22:58.516 one else was framing the struggle for African Americans the 0:22:58.556 --> 0:23:02.356 way Malcolm was. He had a great way of making 0:23:02.476 --> 0:23:09.396 you understand your own condition yeah and still just sense 0:23:09.436 --> 0:23:15.556 of identity, and made you proud of your African heritage 0:23:16.196 --> 0:23:25.116 because he would often talk about the anti sdents of slavery, 0:23:26.636 --> 0:23:32.356 and it was an awakening. It broughtened my horizons in 0:23:32.476 --> 0:23:36.316 a way that I never imagined coming from Philadelphia. So 0:23:36.516 --> 0:23:39.556 Cecil Taylor was a big influence on sort of your 0:23:40.156 --> 0:23:43.476 journey to avant garde music. But also from your hometown 0:23:43.676 --> 0:23:47.036 is Coltrane, who we were friends with and played with, 0:23:47.516 --> 0:23:50.956 who was also a person who really moved things forward 0:23:51.116 --> 0:23:54.836 with in terms of where jazz could go, along with Ornett, 0:23:54.876 --> 0:23:56.996 along with Cecil. Did you pick up any of that 0:23:57.196 --> 0:24:03.196 from Coltrane as well? Well? John confirmed the direction I 0:24:03.356 --> 0:24:09.196 was taking. He came out of the tradition, and like 0:24:09.636 --> 0:24:14.356 Hornette and Cecil, he didn't start on the fringes of 0:24:14.436 --> 0:24:17.476 the music. He began right in the center of it. 0:24:17.636 --> 0:24:24.316 And he was an improviser par excellence. And I was 0:24:24.516 --> 0:24:32.516 very influenced by primarily by his work, and as I say, 0:24:32.756 --> 0:24:38.556 he convinced me that by by example, that I was 0:24:38.836 --> 0:24:43.396 right in terms of what my search because he did. 0:24:43.596 --> 0:24:47.556 He later recorded with Cecil Taylor, and he was a 0:24:47.636 --> 0:24:52.156 close friend of Hornett's, and so when I met him 0:24:52.196 --> 0:24:56.276 at the Five Spot, he was playing with Monk and 0:24:57.916 --> 0:25:01.476 he never really took the horn out of his mouth 0:25:01.876 --> 0:25:05.516 from the time he started on the intermissions, when when 0:25:05.556 --> 0:25:09.476 the other guys would be at the bar, he was 0:25:09.636 --> 0:25:12.996 he went into the kitchen and he was practicing the 0:25:13.316 --> 0:25:16.316 pieces that he that he had learned from Monk he 0:25:16.516 --> 0:25:23.596 was refining them. And so after I heard him one night, 0:25:23.796 --> 0:25:27.076 I asked him I was I was at the club 0:25:27.196 --> 0:25:29.596 of your night to hear him. I asked him if 0:25:29.636 --> 0:25:35.716 he would help me with the saxophone, and he graciously conceded, 0:25:35.836 --> 0:25:39.236 and I was at his house the next morning at 0:25:39.916 --> 0:25:43.316 ten o'clock. Of course, he didn't get home until four 0:25:43.396 --> 0:25:46.596 in the morning, and then he usually practiced, so he 0:25:46.716 --> 0:25:49.836 went to sleep, and so he probably hadn't gone to 0:25:49.956 --> 0:25:53.436 bed and sleep until about six, and I was there 0:25:53.516 --> 0:25:59.236 at ten. So his wife at the time, Naima, told 0:25:59.276 --> 0:26:02.516 me that he was asleep, but I could wait for him. 0:26:02.996 --> 0:26:06.076 So at about one o'clock he got up and he 0:26:06.236 --> 0:26:09.756 went right to the saxophone, which was on the sofa, 0:26:10.796 --> 0:26:15.276 and he played about fifteen minutes and under rooted something 0:26:15.396 --> 0:26:19.716 like I imagined was giant steps, of which later became 0:26:19.876 --> 0:26:24.756 Giants Steps. Then when he asked me to play for him, 0:26:25.276 --> 0:26:29.356 and his advice to me was to keep my hands 0:26:29.436 --> 0:26:33.356 closer to the keys so I would be able to 0:26:33.516 --> 0:26:40.676 move faster. And he didn't really formally teach me. I 0:26:40.836 --> 0:26:45.516 just had conversations with him. I remember talking with him 0:26:45.596 --> 0:26:49.556 one day, and he spent the whole afternoon talking about 0:26:49.716 --> 0:26:54.556 Monk and Miles and I'll teatum. And he explained to 0:26:54.676 --> 0:27:00.036 me how he resolved chords, maybe starting a fifth away 0:27:00.116 --> 0:27:05.356 from the tonic and coming down and half steps playing scales, 0:27:06.156 --> 0:27:09.876 something that I later tried to adapt to my own style. 0:27:10.476 --> 0:27:17.636 But really basically it was a communion of my appreciation 0:27:17.796 --> 0:27:26.476 for him, and more than actual saxophone lessons, we became 0:27:27.876 --> 0:27:34.596 conversant and and I really, I guess because I appreciate 0:27:34.676 --> 0:27:37.476 it him so much. I look looks up to him 0:27:37.676 --> 0:27:41.156 as an older brother. I had been an only child, 0:27:41.356 --> 0:27:44.876 but an older brother that I wish I had had 0:27:45.676 --> 0:27:51.276 and probably wish you had more time with him, sure too, Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. 0:27:51.596 --> 0:27:55.796 And John Coldman helped you get your recordy with Impulse, right, yeah, 0:27:56.156 --> 0:28:01.436 he was essential in my getting that recording. I had 0:28:01.476 --> 0:28:06.356 been calling Bob Theel, the A and R Man Impulse. 0:28:07.076 --> 0:28:10.196 I call him frequently. At the time. I was un 0:28:10.276 --> 0:28:13.356 welfare and I used to take a dollar a day 0:28:13.476 --> 0:28:16.636 and change it to dimes custom dime to make a 0:28:16.716 --> 0:28:23.116 phone call, and I would call his office, his secretary Lillian, 0:28:23.516 --> 0:28:27.796 whom I got to know later on fairly well. But 0:28:27.996 --> 0:28:32.356 I always say Bob is out to lunch or he's 0:28:32.396 --> 0:28:38.036 gone for the day. Finally, I asked John, on the 0:28:38.116 --> 0:28:42.756 advice of Bill Dixon, who was working together. He said, well, 0:28:42.836 --> 0:28:45.836 col change your friend, why don't you ask him to 0:28:45.996 --> 0:28:49.116 get you a record date. So I kind of gave 0:28:49.196 --> 0:28:53.116 me enough of a nerve to ask John the people 0:28:53.156 --> 0:28:57.716 to help me talk to Bob Thield. And he looked 0:28:57.756 --> 0:29:00.836 at me very hard, and he said, you know, a 0:29:00.916 --> 0:29:05.356 lot of people think I'm easy. And I said, John, 0:29:05.436 --> 0:29:10.476 and that's not where I'm coming from. I'm serious. And 0:29:13.076 --> 0:29:16.756 he knew I respected him, so he said, well, I'll 0:29:16.796 --> 0:29:19.596 see what I can do. The next day, I called 0:29:20.676 --> 0:29:25.636 and Lee and the secretary said, Bob's he's out to lunch, 0:29:26.476 --> 0:29:30.356 but he's expecting your call. In that way, I arranged 0:29:30.716 --> 0:29:33.996 a recording date. He tried to talk me out of 0:29:34.076 --> 0:29:38.036 him by saying that you guys are avant garde and 0:29:38.156 --> 0:29:41.396 you want to play your own music, you will have 0:29:41.516 --> 0:29:45.156 to play the songs of Coltrane. But I had already 0:29:45.236 --> 0:29:51.236 been rehearsing. I knew that that was his line, and 0:29:51.436 --> 0:29:56.796 I had already been rehearsing with Roswell Rudd a repertory 0:29:57.196 --> 0:30:01.116 of John's music. So I said, yeah, I know, and 0:30:02.276 --> 0:30:07.236 I'm ready. So that the date was arranged and when 0:30:07.316 --> 0:30:12.076 we arrived at the studio, Rudy Van Yelder's Bob, but 0:30:12.316 --> 0:30:15.556 he really was he didn't want to do this recording 0:30:15.596 --> 0:30:18.396 at all. He has his back turned to me and 0:30:18.556 --> 0:30:21.756 all I could see was smoke coming out of his pipe. 0:30:22.396 --> 0:30:27.076 And by the time we did the third recording and 0:30:27.236 --> 0:30:31.116 so he said, hey, this stuff is great. I'm gonna 0:30:31.156 --> 0:30:33.196 call John and ask him to come and hear you. 0:30:33.956 --> 0:30:37.676 So he called Sharane out on Long Island. We were 0:30:37.716 --> 0:30:45.116 in New Jersey, and Shane very graciously conceded to come 0:30:45.236 --> 0:30:48.276 to the recording date. It was late at night, and 0:30:49.836 --> 0:30:54.316 so when he arrived you will see on the album 0:30:54.516 --> 0:30:58.836 cover he doesn't have on any sucks. But I later 0:30:58.916 --> 0:31:06.156 heard that John didn't wear socks anyway. So and he 0:31:06.316 --> 0:31:09.196 played Bob. Theeld played some of the examples of the 0:31:09.276 --> 0:31:12.596