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Speaker 1: What's up Its way up with Angela Yee And how

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Speaker 1: exciting is this for me? Doctor Tama Bryant is here

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Speaker 1: with me, a New York Times bestselling author, clinical psychologist

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Speaker 1: but also a professor of psychology at Pepperdine University. And

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Speaker 1: you have this book, Matters of the Heart, healing your

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Speaker 1: relationship with yourself and those you love. Thank you so

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Speaker 1: much for joining us today.

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Speaker 2: Oh thank you for having me. I am so excited

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Speaker 2: to be able to talk about this book.

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Speaker 3: You know, it's important.

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Speaker 1: We do this ask Yee segment every day, and I've

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Speaker 1: been doing this like for years, but there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of times that people call up with questions and I'm like,

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Speaker 1: we need an expert in the building for this because

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Speaker 1: I can give y all my life experience and sometimes

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Speaker 1: things like, well, I know what you should do, but

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Speaker 1: a lot of times things are much deeper than that.

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Speaker 1: And I saw you previously with mel Robbins. I love

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Speaker 1: when you did her podcast.

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Speaker 3: Oh thank you.

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Speaker 1: But one thing that you talked about was also why

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Speaker 1: a clinical psychologist is so important. It's not just like

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Speaker 1: talking to your friends or talking to your significant other.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so important for people to have a place

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Speaker 2: where they don't have to do the labor of taking

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Speaker 2: care of the other person. So if I'm talking to

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Speaker 2: a friend or a family member one, as you said,

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Speaker 2: they're coming from their life experience which may or may

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Speaker 2: not be identical to yours. And then a lot of

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Speaker 2: the stress and sometimes trauma that we carry really takes

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Speaker 2: an understanding to unlock that. When people don't have that sensitivity,

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Speaker 2: they can either lead us astray or make advice that's

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Speaker 2: kind of based on assumptions or a limited knowledge. So

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Speaker 2: we want to create space for our mental health and

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Speaker 2: then to talk about our challenges with people who have

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Speaker 2: that background and who can give us their full attention

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Speaker 2: and full knowledge without it being stressed or burdened. But

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Speaker 2: it's a real place for truth.

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Speaker 3: I'm doctor Tama Brian.

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Speaker 1: Before we get into anything, I have to ask you

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Speaker 1: what made you decide this was the work that you

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Speaker 1: wanted to do.

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Speaker 2: So there was a beginning part, which is like when

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Speaker 2: I was a very little child, say preschool, I was

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Speaker 2: asked what I wanted to be when I grew up,

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Speaker 2: and I said I wanted to be a house for

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Speaker 2: the homeless. And so I was told you can't be that.

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Speaker 2: You have to pick something else. And so recently me

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Speaker 2: doing this work of psychology, someone said to me, but

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Speaker 2: you did become a house and really creating a safe

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Speaker 2: space for people to be cared for, to be heard,

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Speaker 2: to be nourished. And in terms of my background, growing up,

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Speaker 2: I was a pastor's daughter, okay, and so people would,

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Speaker 2: especially in our community, would call their pastor first if

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Speaker 2: they were having emotional challenges, family challenges. So I grew

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Speaker 2: up being aware of pastoral counseling. And then when I

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Speaker 2: found out that a psychologist was a profession in and

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Speaker 2: of itself, I said, I think that's me.

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Speaker 3: It's interesting.

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Speaker 1: I remember in school I had two classmates and their

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Speaker 1: parents were psychologists, and I feel like in some ways

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Speaker 1: it messed them up later in life.

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Speaker 3: Ah, you know, is that a real thing? Well?

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Speaker 2: I think that here's an unfortunate part. Some people go

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Speaker 2: into psychology but have never done their own work. Okay, right,

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Speaker 2: so taking the classes is not sufficient. You could memorize terms,

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Speaker 2: but have you done actually like the internal work, your

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Speaker 2: own internal healing, so that you can show up authentically,

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Speaker 2: more lovingly, more graciously. And so you know, one of

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Speaker 2: the things I did, I have two kids during the

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Speaker 2: pandemic was for us to have time to talk about,

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Speaker 2: like what was the best and worst part of your day?

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Speaker 2: And I wouldn't just ask them, I would give my

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Speaker 2: answer to right, So creating an atmosphere where we don't

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Speaker 2: have to pretend, but we can say, like, you know,

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Speaker 2: missing my friends or not being able to go outside

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Speaker 2: or whatever it is for there to be truth. So

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Speaker 2: there are people who are in the profession who need

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Speaker 2: to take pause and do their internal process.

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Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, I can see that. And right now we're

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Speaker 1: watching everything that's been unfolding. Sometimes watching the news can

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Speaker 1: be really tough, and I say that for myself too,

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Speaker 1: because I'm watching every day. It's like something new is happening,

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Speaker 1: something new that we're sounding the alarm on, something.

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Speaker 3: That we can't believe that X, Y and Z is happening.

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Speaker 1: What do you say to people about the balance of

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Speaker 1: paying attention to what's going on in the world. Looking

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Speaker 1: at social media because I look at it for work

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Speaker 1: all the time, but it's disturbing to me at times

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Speaker 1: also to see how what the things are that people

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Speaker 1: are saying. And I think right now, even the algorithm

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Speaker 1: is feeding us certain things, especially if you happen to

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Speaker 1: be on X. But what do you say to people

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Speaker 1: who are like, I want to know what's happening, but

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Speaker 1: it's also just really weighing on me.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, this is so important because we can be in

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Speaker 2: a constant state of stress panic. So we don't want

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Speaker 2: to go to the other side of that where people

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Speaker 2: are checked out and are like, oh, I just don't

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Speaker 2: watch the news. I don't know what's happening.

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Speaker 3: Then tell me that that's right.

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Speaker 2: They say, I'm protecting my piece, but there are real

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Speaker 2: things happening that, as you're saying, we want to be

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Speaker 2: informed about. So I would say monitoring the time you

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Speaker 2: give it, because since we're in a twenty four hour

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Speaker 2: news cycle, you could like leave the news channel on

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Speaker 2: all day long, and so you're just hearing that over

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Speaker 2: and over again, and now they call everything late breaking news.

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Speaker 2: Right to keep your yes and so to say I'm

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Speaker 2: gonna give it this amount of time, or some people

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Speaker 2: will switch to like written news so that like they'll

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Speaker 2: skim the article or get the highlights. But to say

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Speaker 2: I'm not going to give it all my day. And

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Speaker 2: then in terms of your social media feed, you want

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Speaker 2: to balance it out because some people are sharing information

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Speaker 2: from a place of despair that ends up making you

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Speaker 2: feel more powerless. Right vers some people they're like, these

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Speaker 2: are challenging times, and these are ways to take care

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Speaker 2: of yourself. Where these are challenging times and this is

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Speaker 2: what community members are doing. So I would say check

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Speaker 2: in with yourself to say, do I feel edified, nourished,

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Speaker 2: empowered as a result of what I'm consuming?

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Speaker 1: You know, I had Rywood Junior up here the other day,

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Speaker 1: the comedian. He has a new special on Hulu called

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Speaker 1: Lonely Flowers, and he was talking about how we don't

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Speaker 1: have the same connections anymore when we're doing things we're

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Speaker 1: going to it's hard to even get a person on

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Speaker 1: the phone. Sometimes when you're going to the supermarket, we're

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Speaker 1: checking ourselves out, or we're having to like call someone

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Speaker 1: just to open up the case so we can get

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Speaker 1: something from out of there, or we're just ordering things online.

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Speaker 3: Just a lack of connections with each other.

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Speaker 1: What do you say to people today that are feeling

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Speaker 1: like I don't know how I'm ever going to meet anybody,

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Speaker 1: or I just feel really like empty.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so important for us to remove any stigma

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Speaker 2: or shame around that because often we think everybody has

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Speaker 2: their people but me, and the reality is so many

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Speaker 2: people are feeling disconnected. And sometimes you might see those

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Speaker 2: people on social media or even in public with other people,

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Speaker 2: but still feel like they're not known, they're not seen,

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Speaker 2: they're not really understood. Because you can be in the

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Speaker 2: presence of somebody and still feel very lonely. Yes you can, right,

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Speaker 2: And so then for us to say, I don't have

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Speaker 2: to be embarrassed about it, and because I realize how

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Speaker 2: common it is, then I can realize that there are

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Speaker 2: more people who are looking for connections too. You know,

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Speaker 2: sometimes we're afraid of like, oh, I'll look like a

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Speaker 2: loser if I say to someone you want to grab coffee,

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Speaker 2: not knowing that that person may love to have a

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Speaker 2: connection as well. So it's like to take the risk

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Speaker 2: and to know there are people who want deeper connection.

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Speaker 1: Okay, let's just say, now, back to somebody saying you

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Speaker 1: want to grab coffee, let's just say we don't really

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Speaker 1: want to, but we feel like I feel bad saying no.

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Speaker 3: So here's the gift of honesty. Right, If I say.

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Speaker 2: Yes out of guilt or lack of interest, that's gonna

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Speaker 2: lead to another request, and another request, So now you

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Speaker 2: are abandoning yourself and this person now thinks y'all are

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Speaker 2: best friends. Right, So if like I already know, we

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Speaker 2: don't have a lot in common, or we don't really click,

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Speaker 2: or for whatever reason, it's better to be honest earlier.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes we're avoidant because we're afraid of hurting people. But

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Speaker 2: then if you just play that story out, they're gonna

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Speaker 2: end up being hurt eventually, and then it took even longer.

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Speaker 2: So I would say, free people and give them the

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Speaker 2: gift of your honesty so then they can meet people

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Speaker 2: who actually want to be with them.

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Speaker 1: I want to talk about a quote that you had.

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Speaker 1: The story they have created about your reveal is a

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Speaker 1: lot about them. Yeah, Peace, I think that is an

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Speaker 1: amazing quote. So we need to talk about that a

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Speaker 1: little bit, because I think there's times that there's people

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Speaker 1: who are in our lives that maybe have a perception

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Speaker 1: of you based off of expectations that they had of

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Speaker 1: you or something that just the relationship goes left and

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Speaker 1: it doesn't work out, and now there's somebody going around

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Speaker 1: saying these things about you that can be damaging, that

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Speaker 1: can be hurtful, and then you feel like you have

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Speaker 1: to defend yourself, and it's like sometimes that turns into

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Speaker 1: just such a cycle. And I don't think that that

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Speaker 1: hasn't happened, Like that's happened to everybody.

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Speaker 3: At some point, somebody has a.

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Speaker 1: Whole other story about you based off of an experience

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Speaker 1: that they have with you, or something that they may

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Speaker 1: have created, you know, as a reason. So can you

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Speaker 1: explain this? The story they have created about you reveals

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Speaker 1: a lot about them, Yes.

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Speaker 2: So often it reveals a lot about their prior experience

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Speaker 2: with other people. And they may be other people who

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Speaker 2: look like you, may be other people who are in

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Speaker 2: your place position, and so then people make assumptions.

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Speaker 3: It's like the quick conclusion.

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Speaker 2: The example that comes to mind for me is if

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Speaker 2: someone sees a woman who is let's say, disheveled, not

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Speaker 2: the shiniest person, and they're kind of quiet and off

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Speaker 2: to themselves. People would often have compassion for her and say, oh,

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Speaker 2: my goodness, like maybe she's insecure or nervous, or like,

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Speaker 2: let me be kind to her. If you are a

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Speaker 2: very attractive woman and you're just quiet, people will interpret

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Speaker 2: that ass standoffish. You must think you're better than us.

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Speaker 2: Or she must think she's cute, like this whole narrative

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Speaker 2: where it's the same thing. This person is just not

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Speaker 2: an extrovert, right, And so then I put on you

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Speaker 2: my past experience with people who I have deemed attractive

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Speaker 2: or people I have decided are successful, is that they

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Speaker 2: must be rejecting me as opposed to they're just over

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Speaker 2: there living their lives. And so we have to be

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Speaker 2: careful about creating meaning.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 2: It's like if someone walks in this room who you know,

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Speaker 2: and they don't speak, and I say, like, why do

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Speaker 2: you think they didn't speak to you? Like you just

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Speaker 2: say they're mad at me? Or you know, we create

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Speaker 2: a narrative they might be in their head because they

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Speaker 2: just saw like a really bad text or email and

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Speaker 2: they really didn't see you.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: Right, So for us to slow down in our snap

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Speaker 2: judgments around people, and then when people are making judgments

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Speaker 2: about us, to really resist the urge to prove to

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Speaker 2: people who we are right to be settled in myself

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Speaker 2: right to know myself and to know people who actually

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Speaker 2: want to take the time to get to.

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Speaker 3: Know me will get to know the real me.

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Speaker 1: I want to ask you also, as a tenured professor

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Speaker 1: at Pepperdine University. What is something that you've noticed about

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Speaker 1: students after the pandemic versus before? Is there anything, because

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Speaker 1: I know there's a lot of studies about how that's affected,

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Speaker 1: in particular younger people.

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Speaker 2: Yes, so that isolation has been so difficult. Many people

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Speaker 2: had to go through let's say birthdays alone, holidays alone,

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Speaker 2: and even in the pandemic, the loss of loved ones,

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Speaker 2: so having to grieve alone. And so for some people

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Speaker 2: they adjusted to that and so then prefer to stay

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Speaker 2: in the house or social interactions are more uncomfortable or

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Speaker 2: awkward for them, And then for other people they are

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Speaker 2: so desiring it that sometimes they can get ahead of

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Speaker 2: themselves and saying like this is my new bestie, and

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Speaker 2: it's like, you know, do you all know each other?

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Speaker 2: So that it definitely had that social effect, but it

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Speaker 2: also forced people to find some other resources online and

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Speaker 2: find communities online. So it's one of the reports the

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Speaker 2: American Psychological Association did around social media and young people.

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Speaker 2: Is for some people, especially depending on where they live,

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Speaker 2: that is their place of belonging right, and then for

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Speaker 2: others it's comparison and not feeling enough because of you know,

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Speaker 2: who you're looking at someone's curated, censored life and thinking

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Speaker 2: like that yours is inadequate.

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Speaker 1: You know. We had a listener the other day, callb Asky,

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Speaker 1: and she was talking about the kind of guys that

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Speaker 1: she's dating and none of them want to be in

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Speaker 1: a serious relationship. They tend to be younger. And I

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Speaker 1: was like, well, have you tried online dating? And she said,

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Speaker 1: that's for losers. I want to get doctor Tam and Brian.

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Speaker 1: I want to get your view on people connecting in

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Speaker 1: that way, because I do know a lot of successful

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Speaker 1: relationships that have come from that, but there are still

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Speaker 1: people who feel like, oh I don't want to do that,

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Speaker 1: but they're craving this connection.

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Speaker 3: I want to know what your thoughts are.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that it can work for and has

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Speaker 2: worked for a lot of people. And if you're drawing

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Speaker 2: a certain and type of person, I would encourage two

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Speaker 2: things that may seem opposite. One is look at your profile,

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Speaker 2: because sometimes the pictures we post and the way we

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Speaker 2: talk about ourselves can give people an impression that may

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Speaker 2: or may not be true that.

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Speaker 3: You're doing shots and you're right right.

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Speaker 2: So it's like, if I'm presenting as like party up,

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Speaker 2: and now I'm like, how come no one wants a commitment? Right?

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Speaker 2: So they looked at that and didn't think that's what

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Speaker 2: you wanted. And then I'm gonna give the total opposite

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Speaker 2: of that, which is people.

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Speaker 3: Who are.

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Speaker 2: Not serious or who are players or who are clowns

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Speaker 2: approach everybody. So instead of thinking like, what's wrong with me?

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Speaker 2: My question is not why did they approach you? Is

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Speaker 2: how long did you entertain them? Okay, right, once you

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Speaker 2: see that, they're like, oh, I'm not ready for all

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Speaker 2: of that, but you continue to engage.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 2: Now we have kind of that bread crumbing where I

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Speaker 2: really want a feast, but because they call or text

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Speaker 2: sometimes I'll take it because it's better than nothing. But

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Speaker 2: we can fill ourselves with the crumb givers. And what

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Speaker 2: I like to say I learned early on is sometimes

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Speaker 2: you have to choose none of the above.

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Speaker 3: Right right, and keep this late clear so when the

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Speaker 3: thing comes, yes.

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Speaker 2: You're available, because or when I was younger, I did

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Speaker 2: think like you pick the best out of your options, right,

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Speaker 2: But sometimes you don't have good options, so the best

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Speaker 2: is still at the worst.

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Speaker 1: Yes.

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Speaker 3: Now.

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Speaker 1: The book is called Matters of the Heart Healing, your

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Speaker 1: relationship with yourself and those you love, And you say,

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Speaker 1: one of the greatest determinants of wellness is the quality

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Speaker 1: of our relationships. How can we work on having better

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Speaker 1: quality relationships, whether it's our friendships, work relationships, significant others.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so one of them is quality time. Sometimes we

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Speaker 2: are so focused on work or so focused on ourselves

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Speaker 2: that we neglect our relationships and take people for granted.

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Speaker 2: So to be intentional, if like someone is my friend

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Speaker 2: or even family relationships that I want to nourish romantic relationships,

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Speaker 2: you know, can I protect time for that? Can I

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Speaker 2: give that time? And then a big part of it

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Speaker 2: is acceptance versus picking people with potential. Right, So if

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Speaker 2: I pick people with potential, then I'm trying to make

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Speaker 2: them into something else. So that's a setup for them

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Speaker 2: to be frustrated and for you to be disappointed. Right, sure,

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Speaker 2: And so a part of it is like in my

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Speaker 2: selection process, right when I pick a good friend, Like,

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Speaker 2: we can see some of those characteristics from the beginning, right,

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Speaker 2: the quality of the persons, I would say, the selection

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Speaker 2: is a part of it. And then self awareness and

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Speaker 2: self reflection because we're often in this like quick to

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Speaker 2: cut people. You know, at the end of every year,

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Speaker 2: they're like, I'm cutting people, and it's like, okay, can you.

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Speaker 3: Work on anything?

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Speaker 2: Can we And so for me to be honest about

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Speaker 2: what are ways that I could show up differently as

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Speaker 2: a friend, right, and for me to be able to

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Speaker 2: take feedback because that's harder to hear. But we may

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Speaker 2: be sabotaging some of our relationships and don't know it.

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Speaker 3: So being willing to hear it.

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Speaker 1: It's interesting because I do feel like I used to

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Speaker 1: be very forgiving of people and circumstances, and I find

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Speaker 1: that it's been a burden on me. So I've had

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Speaker 1: to learn to take people for who they are and

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Speaker 1: just Okay, they did this. I gave them, you know,

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Speaker 1: a conversation about why this is not appropriate, and you know,

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Speaker 1: I saw that you did that and moving forward, and

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Speaker 1: then I give you the warning and if you keep

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Speaker 1: on doing it, I have to protect myself.

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Speaker 2: That's important, and I think that's a part of the

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Speaker 2: self awareness. Some of us are quick to cut and

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Speaker 2: some people don't ever cut, and we just keep giving

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Speaker 2: grace and giving chances. And so it's the importance of knowing,

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Speaker 2: as you said, I've given them the feedback. I had

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Speaker 2: the conversation, I shared what was hurtful or what I

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Speaker 2: didn't like, and there's been no change.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 2: So now it's not like I just wanted them to

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Speaker 2: read my mind. It's they're unwilling to show up in

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Speaker 2: the way that I need or the way that I

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Speaker 2: find healthy, and so being able and willing to let

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Speaker 2: that go because we can't force people to be who

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Speaker 2: we want them to be. Right, So it's like, you

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Speaker 2: have shown me who you are and I choose to

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Speaker 2: step back.

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Speaker 1: How is that when it comes to family, because sometimes

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Speaker 1: family members can show you who they are, but you

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Speaker 1: also feel like, well that's family. What if it's your

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Speaker 1: parent and they've done really hurtful things to you, but

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Speaker 1: you don't want to have regrets?

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Speaker 2: Lator Yes, Yeah, that's such a good question and one

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Speaker 2: people have to wrestle with. There are some people who

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Speaker 2: conclude that even though they're family, I have to eliminate

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Speaker 2: contact with them because it's unhealthy for me. For a

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Speaker 2: lot of people, they struggle with that because, as you said,

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Speaker 2: feeling like this is family, so they have to be

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Speaker 2: given more grace. And what I would say to that

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Speaker 2: is moderation and boundaries, right, that just because I say, like,

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Speaker 2: I'm not gonna cut you off. Now, do I have

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Speaker 2: to spend every weekend at your house? Do I have

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Speaker 2: to spend every holiday with you? Or I say, for

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Speaker 2: some people, when you go there on the holidays, you

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Speaker 2: can say I'm sitting at the kids table, or like

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Speaker 2: if they need somebody to.

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Speaker 3: Run errands, you know, fine, Oh it's fun, it's fun.

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Speaker 2: So and I would say, working to heal our wounds

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Speaker 2: so that people's dysfunction doesn't hurt our feelings so much.

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Speaker 2: So you may have that one aunt who's gonna like

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Speaker 2: criticize your looks or criticize you for still being single,

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Speaker 2: or say you still don't have children. And so I

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Speaker 2: have to not be surprised by people who continue to

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Speaker 2: be themselves right, like they gonna always have something to say,

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Speaker 2: and it's not.

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Speaker 3: Gonna ready for it. Yes I'm ready.

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Speaker 2: And it's not gonna stink as much because I don't

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Speaker 2: agree with them. I'm no longer waiting for their approval.

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Speaker 3: Man.

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Speaker 1: And one more thing I want to talk about, as

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Speaker 1: far as matters of the hearts, love and someone who

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Speaker 1: you realize just does not love you. But sometimes we

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Speaker 1: make excuses for people right, we see all of the

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Speaker 1: signs and someone else on the outside can tell us

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Speaker 1: what it is, but us in that situation, and you know,

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Speaker 1: sometimes we cut people off because they're not telling us

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Speaker 1: what we want to hear, and we end up staying

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Speaker 1: with somebody because we're used to certain things, or we

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Speaker 1: feel like things will get better, it will change, or

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Speaker 1: you don't want to desert a person.

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Speaker 3: So how do you release somebody who doesn't love you?

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Speaker 2: So the first thing is to recognize they're already gone, right,

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Speaker 2: They're gone. So it's more accepting that they are not

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Speaker 2: emotionally connected to me. So it's more accepting the truth

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Speaker 2: instead of having to do something. It is more I

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Speaker 2: have to give myself permission to see the hard truth

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Speaker 2: that this person doesn't want me for any reason, and

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Speaker 2: to kind of change my script because the story we

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Speaker 2: can tell ourselves is that I'm unlovable or this is

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Speaker 2: the bright. So if I dress differently, if I talk differently,

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Speaker 2: if I do these things, that I'm going to heal

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Speaker 2: them with my love. And that is a setup of

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Speaker 2: always the relationship being unequal because they have shown you

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Speaker 2: with their behavior that they're not really interesting. Did and

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Speaker 2: sometimes we fear that we'll be alone, so we act

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Speaker 2: as if like this is my last chance for something,

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Speaker 2: And a part of that can also be our own

413
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Speaker 2: emotional unavailability because people who are interested in us, we're

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Speaker 2: not interested in.

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Speaker 3: Isn't that funny, right?

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Speaker 1: There are people who would like love to treat you great,

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Speaker 1: but I want to fight for this right. I want

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Speaker 1: the one who doesn't want me, and so to settle

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Speaker 1: with ourselves of releasing them, to make room for people

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Speaker 1: who are gonna choose me, and uh, to heal the

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Speaker 1: parts of me that made me feel like I have

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Speaker 1: to convince people, right, So when I'm clear I'm enough

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Speaker 1: and that I'm worthy and I may not just be

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Speaker 1: this person's cup of tea or they might not be

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Speaker 1: ready for it doesn't matter the reason, because we'll, like

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Speaker 1: you said, we'll justify and that will keep us in

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Speaker 1: it much longer. Instead of just saying whatever reason it's

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Speaker 1: not reciprocated, I would say, amen, cheat, or why don't

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Speaker 1: I just stay with this because if I go out there,

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Speaker 1: it's just gonna happen to me with a stranger.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So this is we hold on for familiarity and

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Speaker 2: we hold on for fear. Right the fear that I

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Speaker 2: couldn't be treated better. So when we see people being

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Speaker 2: treated well, we either say that must be a lie

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Speaker 2: or it's an act, or we say some people deserve

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Speaker 2: that kind of love, but I could never get that,

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Speaker 2: So then I got to hold on to what I have.

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Speaker 2: So it is both believing that in my current circumstance,

439
00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:45,600
Speaker 2: the bad outweighs the good. I feel worse about myself

440
00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:49,000
Speaker 2: because of the way this person treats me, and to

441
00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:54,200
Speaker 2: believe that I can be loved better, even if it's

442
00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:56,800
Speaker 2: not immediate, because that's the thing that trips us up.

443
00:23:57,000 --> 00:24:01,680
Speaker 2: Sometimes we cut it off and then we're tired of waiting,

444
00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:06,879
Speaker 2: so then we text them back right, so what are

445
00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:07,720
Speaker 2: you doing right?

446
00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:09,439
Speaker 3: Then we're back in that loop again.

447
00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:15,119
Speaker 2: So it's to develop the capacity to enjoy even if

448
00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:18,120
Speaker 2: you don't enjoy it, to deal with the in between

449
00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:22,440
Speaker 2: time so that you don't keep surrounding yourself with that

450
00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:24,040
Speaker 2: which doesn't honor you.

451
00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:24,960
Speaker 3: As a friend.

452
00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:28,679
Speaker 1: How do you talk to someone who's going through that? Right,

453
00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:30,919
Speaker 1: because you know we all have that friend and like

454
00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:34,160
Speaker 1: keeps going back? Who keeps on going back? He already done,

455
00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:35,680
Speaker 1: went on vacation with another woman?

456
00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:37,320
Speaker 3: He did x, Y and Z.

457
00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:39,800
Speaker 1: He told you he doesn't want to be in a relationship,

458
00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:42,280
Speaker 1: but now he changed his mind. You know, you haven't

459
00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:44,439
Speaker 1: met his fani. It's all these different things, and she

460
00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:46,359
Speaker 1: keeps on going back. What do we do as a

461
00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:49,600
Speaker 1: friend to be a good friend to somebody in that situation?

462
00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:54,359
Speaker 2: So one of the things is to not abandon them,

463
00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:58,040
Speaker 2: because sometimes what ends up happening is all the friends

464
00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:00,679
Speaker 2: are tired of them, and so then they're only friend

465
00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:04,800
Speaker 2: is the shady partner, right, so that keeps them. So

466
00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:08,920
Speaker 2: even though we could say, like it's frustrating to say,

467
00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:13,040
Speaker 2: my biggest priority and goal for you is for you

468
00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:15,240
Speaker 2: to be happy and for you to be treated well.

469
00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:18,080
Speaker 2: So if this person's gonna do that for you, I

470
00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:20,680
Speaker 2: love it. If they're not gonna do that for you,

471
00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:24,280
Speaker 2: whenever you're ready to make a shift, I'm here for you,

472
00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:29,080
Speaker 2: here to help you, like through that process. And I

473
00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:34,080
Speaker 2: would say affirming them, encouraging them, because those dynamics kind

474
00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:37,600
Speaker 2: of shatter their self esteem, right, they're self worth, So

475
00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:41,480
Speaker 2: then they don't feel good about themselves. So having the

476
00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:46,240
Speaker 2: friend who says, you know, you're amazing, right, you're beautiful. Yeah,

477
00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:49,600
Speaker 2: I love talking to you, like to affirm and celebrate them,

478
00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:53,159
Speaker 2: can help to build them up so they would be

479
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:55,239
Speaker 2: strong enough to step out of that.

480
00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:57,879
Speaker 3: And can we say he ain't shit. Yeah, come on,

481
00:25:57,960 --> 00:25:58,520
Speaker 3: you can say that.

482
00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:02,760
Speaker 1: Okay, but let me just let me tell you that.

483
00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:04,879
Speaker 2: That's what I was going to tell you that Usually

484
00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:08,480
Speaker 2: with clients who are in that circumstance, I actually asked

485
00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:11,280
Speaker 2: them to tell me about all the good stuff, right,

486
00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:14,000
Speaker 2: because if we focus on the bad, then they do

487
00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:16,040
Speaker 2: get defensive and they feel like, well, you don't like

488
00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:18,240
Speaker 2: them anyway, you already made up your mind about them.

489
00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:20,879
Speaker 2: So I'll say, tell me all the great things, and

490
00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:22,760
Speaker 2: then they're struggling right to think.

491
00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:23,240
Speaker 3: Of the good thing.

492
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:27,679
Speaker 2: Yes, well, right, because people are whole beings, right, So

493
00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:30,920
Speaker 2: usually a person is not a monster or clown all

494
00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:31,479
Speaker 2: the time.

495
00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:33,920
Speaker 3: So tell me what it was like in the beginning.

496
00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:37,440
Speaker 2: Tell me about the you know what, what you enjoy

497
00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:40,600
Speaker 2: about them, so that I can see the fullness. And

498
00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:45,199
Speaker 2: now let's get to the shade, right. So, because if not,

499
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:48,919
Speaker 2: what often happens is the person starts censoring, so then

500
00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:52,440
Speaker 2: they're just not telling you the story, right, And then

501
00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:53,760
Speaker 2: that's not helpful either.

502
00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:56,600
Speaker 1: I want to ask you, we just recently on lip

503
00:26:56,680 --> 00:27:00,159
Speaker 1: service had a guest done and she is polyamorous. She

504
00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:03,840
Speaker 1: just proposed to her girlfriend out to Jerry. What are

505
00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:07,400
Speaker 1: your thoughts about polyamory when it comes to relationships. Yeah,

506
00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:11,640
Speaker 1: I think the importance is going to be honest communication,

507
00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:16,240
Speaker 1: because sometimes what you have is one person where that

508
00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:19,760
Speaker 1: is like their authentic truth and authentically what they want,

509
00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:23,359
Speaker 1: and then sometimes there's another person that who's going along

510
00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:28,040
Speaker 1: with it who may not be fully into Yeah, I

511
00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:31,880
Speaker 1: feel like yes, and so if I love you, then

512
00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:36,760
Speaker 1: you have to And then I'm kind of silently suffering

513
00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:40,960
Speaker 1: or silently disappointed, or silently hoping that the narrative is

514
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:43,160
Speaker 1: going to change. So I would just say, now, that's

515
00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:45,520
Speaker 1: not always the case, but what I just have seen

516
00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:48,840
Speaker 1: clinically is sometimes people aren't standing in their full truth.

517
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:51,520
Speaker 1: So as long as we have people who are operating

518
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:55,399
Speaker 1: from a place of authentic integrity, you know, then you

519
00:27:55,520 --> 00:28:00,359
Speaker 1: can have it blossom. I just want to give people

520
00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:04,040
Speaker 1: just some kind words about dealing with these next four years.

521
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:06,960
Speaker 1: You know, we've seen a lot of lgbt q IA

522
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:11,520
Speaker 1: rights and trans rights, and you know, people who are

523
00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:17,400
Speaker 1: migrants here, a lot of people are being attacked spoken

524
00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:19,840
Speaker 1: negatively about, and I just want to know how do

525
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:23,840
Speaker 1: we survive this and how do we come together as community,

526
00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:26,920
Speaker 1: because it definitely feels like we're more divided than we've

527
00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:29,600
Speaker 1: ever been, and that can be really discouraging for people

528
00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:31,800
Speaker 1: as we're trying to figure out how do I go

529
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:35,280
Speaker 1: about my day not knowing if you know something AWF

530
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:37,160
Speaker 1: is going to happen in the news coming up, or

531
00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:40,080
Speaker 1: somebody who I know is going to be targeted, it's

532
00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:41,080
Speaker 1: just so much going on.

533
00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:43,000
Speaker 3: Thank you for that.

534
00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:46,920
Speaker 2: So the first thing I would say is feel your feelings,

535
00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:51,800
Speaker 2: because sometimes we feel like we have to suppress or

536
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:56,720
Speaker 2: ignore or hide our feelings and we and so then

537
00:28:56,760 --> 00:29:01,040
Speaker 2: we're pretending to be well right, But instead to say

538
00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:04,480
Speaker 2: I like to say, uh, it's healthy to be outraged

539
00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:08,880
Speaker 2: about outrageous things, and outrageous things are happening. So it's

540
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:11,280
Speaker 2: a sign of my mental health when I can say

541
00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:16,520
Speaker 2: I'm disappointed or I'm grieving about this or I'm outraged

542
00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:20,320
Speaker 2: about it. That we don't have. We don't want to

543
00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:24,600
Speaker 2: ignore our own humanity. So within our humanity, honor your

544
00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:28,760
Speaker 2: feelings and note that. And then I would say, you know,

545
00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:32,920
Speaker 2: to revisit history, you know, we've been saying like, oh,

546
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:37,080
Speaker 2: like this has never happened before. Well, we look at history,

547
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:40,800
Speaker 2: it has. Each of each of the identities you mentioned

548
00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:44,800
Speaker 2: have lived through hostile times where people who were in

549
00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:50,240
Speaker 2: power did not honor your humanity. And so we look

550
00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:52,280
Speaker 2: at the ways in which we survived. A part of

551
00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:55,880
Speaker 2: it is community, so connecting with people so that we

552
00:29:55,920 --> 00:30:00,120
Speaker 2: don't feel so alone. And then around the divisions these

553
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:05,280
Speaker 2: different marginalized groups, working in coalition is how we shift it.

554
00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:05,920
Speaker 3: Right.

555
00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:10,360
Speaker 2: If we remain divided and you know, turn on each other,

556
00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:14,760
Speaker 2: then we're not operating in our full power. Right, So

557
00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:19,160
Speaker 2: collective liberation means less before the collective, and not only

558
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:21,640
Speaker 2: that we fight and stand up for other people, but

559
00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:24,160
Speaker 2: that they do it for us as well, to know,

560
00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:30,040
Speaker 2: like these struggles are are connected, right, And then I

561
00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:33,800
Speaker 2: would say the arts are a wonderful way to heal

562
00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:37,920
Speaker 2: and express ourselves through our music, through our dancing, through

563
00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:39,400
Speaker 2: our spiritual practices.

564
00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:43,800
Speaker 1: Food. Yes, we love to come together, but life come around. Yes,

565
00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:47,640
Speaker 1: come together around food. It's true, it's true to be.

566
00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:50,520
Speaker 2: You know that that it can be a love language. Right,

567
00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:55,440
Speaker 2: the way in which people care for us and bake

568
00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:58,960
Speaker 2: for us. I would just say, in addition to the food,

569
00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:01,680
Speaker 2: if we can have the converse station, because sometimes it's

570
00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:06,200
Speaker 2: the emotional eating and the silence. Right, but if we

571
00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:09,520
Speaker 2: can have real community where we break bread together and

572
00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:15,000
Speaker 2: do real talk not only about the despair or difficulty,

573
00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:17,160
Speaker 2: but the way forward.

574
00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:20,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, because sometimes when they go low, it's hard

575
00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:20,719
Speaker 1: to go hide.

576
00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:26,360
Speaker 2: It can be and and I would say, when people

577
00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:32,400
Speaker 2: pull us outside of ourselves, that also doesn't have a

578
00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:35,040
Speaker 2: good feeling, right right, It's I like.

579
00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:36,760
Speaker 3: To give people that power to make me not be

580
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:37,640
Speaker 3: who I am.

581
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:41,479
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes, because then they you know, they know

582
00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:43,680
Speaker 2: those punches are landing. Right.

583
00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:45,320
Speaker 3: I feel like that about relationships too.

584
00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:47,520
Speaker 1: I never want to be with somebody where I can't

585
00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:49,720
Speaker 1: function as who I really am and they have me

586
00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:51,000
Speaker 1: acting like out of character.

587
00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:53,720
Speaker 2: Oh this is not for me, right, I don't. And

588
00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:56,080
Speaker 2: that's so important because some people will say, you made

589
00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:58,719
Speaker 2: me act like this, Well, then you want to make

590
00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:00,840
Speaker 2: a different choice. I want to be in the presence

591
00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:03,640
Speaker 2: of people who pull out the best of me, right And.

592
00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:10,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Well doctor Tama Brian, thank you so much.

593
00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:11,640
Speaker 3: I appreciate this conversation.

594
00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:14,479
Speaker 1: Matters of the heart, healing your relationship with yourself, and

595
00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:19,680
Speaker 1: those you love. Such an excellent, excellent conversation. I'm glad

596
00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:22,520
Speaker 1: you wrote this book, and I do want to say,

597
00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:24,400
Speaker 1: what made you decide this book? Now?

598
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:29,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, the biggest questions people usually ask me on social

599
00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:33,080
Speaker 2: media or in therapy are about relationships. So when they're

600
00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:37,160
Speaker 2: done well, they allow us to soar and feel nourished

601
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:41,600
Speaker 2: and protected. And when they are not done well, it's

602
00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:44,920
Speaker 2: heartbreaking and it can affect every other area of our lives.

603
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:48,200
Speaker 2: I've seen people mess up in school, mess up and work,

604
00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:53,120
Speaker 2: Their health fails because of unhealthy, toxic relationships. So we

605
00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:57,160
Speaker 2: want to get it right so we can soar together.

606
00:32:57,520 --> 00:32:59,600
Speaker 2: All right, Well, thank you so much. I appreciate you.

607
00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:04,920
Speaker 3: Thanks, thank you for having me. I appreciate you well,