WEBVTT - Need A 4th?! Ep. 7 with Sean Foley 0:00:07.360 --> 0:00:09.680 Golf. Is that they anything in golf that doesn't change, 0:00:09.800 --> 0:00:12.200 anything that changes the best in playing? Does this man 0:00:12.280 --> 0:00:14.920 a one time winner on the PGA Tour. The point 0:00:15.000 --> 0:00:22.000 Alan is he didn't go Hollywood. You need a fourth Well, Michael, 0:00:22.360 --> 0:00:24.520 this is the point in the programmer. We always tip 0:00:24.520 --> 0:00:27.480 our caps to our corporate sponsors, Echo who the purveyors 0:00:27.520 --> 0:00:30.960 a very stylish and comfortable footwear that I know you're 0:00:30.960 --> 0:00:33.240 a fan of as m I, Um, I feel like 0:00:33.280 --> 0:00:34.840 you have someone you want to stay here the jump 0:00:34.840 --> 0:00:39.720 in please you know I actually enjoyed this part against 0:00:39.800 --> 0:00:42.240 all odds. But you don't want to ask me the 0:00:42.320 --> 0:00:45.479 question I've tied up for you. Oh yes, you want 0:00:45.479 --> 0:00:49.640 to discuss laces and laces? Yes, I think part Thank 0:00:49.680 --> 0:00:53.479 you for reminding me. Um, I think part of a 0:00:53.600 --> 0:00:56.600 quality product. No matter what the product is, whether it's 0:00:56.600 --> 0:01:01.360 a Mercedes Benz or or an Echo golf shoe. UM 0:01:01.560 --> 0:01:05.560 attention to detail is always paid. Our guest today, Sean 0:01:05.680 --> 0:01:08.560 Foley is from Orlando. Orlando is a longtime home of 0:01:08.720 --> 0:01:12.000 Arnold Palmer. I dropped Arnold Palmer's name way too often, 0:01:12.040 --> 0:01:15.800 but also every opportunity I can, and one Arnold's things 0:01:15.959 --> 0:01:19.760 was before every tournament, put in a new pair of laces, 0:01:19.880 --> 0:01:21.880 because you don't want to be like Saturday morning in 0:01:21.920 --> 0:01:24.640 the lace breaks, Like I got a lot of other 0:01:24.680 --> 0:01:26.240 things in my mind. I really don't want to be 0:01:26.240 --> 0:01:28.400 putting a new laces. So he put new laces every week. 0:01:29.440 --> 0:01:31.679 I think that every time. By the way, every time 0:01:31.680 --> 0:01:34.119 I wear golf shoes, it's only Echo shoes because as 0:01:34.120 --> 0:01:37.119 were the only shoes I own. Um, but I think 0:01:37.120 --> 0:01:39.800 of the quality of the Echo lace and the fact 0:01:39.840 --> 0:01:42.200 that I don't need to change them every week. I 0:01:42.240 --> 0:01:44.000 don't need to change them ever they seem to I 0:01:44.000 --> 0:01:46.640 don't know what they've done right, but they do the 0:01:46.680 --> 0:01:49.240 two things you want. They don't break and they stay tired. 0:01:49.280 --> 0:01:51.480 Have you had a and I've not died your echo shoes. 0:01:51.480 --> 0:01:54.440 You've got a different one You've got You've got a wide, 0:01:54.480 --> 0:01:57.240 flat lace. I've got more of a knotted kind of lace. 0:01:57.280 --> 0:01:59.760 But it's got a cotton quality to it that holds 0:01:59.800 --> 0:02:02.760 its grip. If that's the term of the art. I'm 0:02:02.800 --> 0:02:06.040 inspired by the care and the thought you've put into 0:02:06.040 --> 0:02:08.320 the laces, and um, I may not share it, but 0:02:08.400 --> 0:02:09.960 all I know is I put my Echo shoes on. 0:02:10.560 --> 0:02:13.400 They work, They sticked me to the ground during my 0:02:13.520 --> 0:02:16.359 incredibly fast swing speed and their comfy and they look 0:02:16.360 --> 0:02:21.720 good and um so thank you echo back dena fourth Well, 0:02:22.120 --> 0:02:26.600 Jeff Michael, I'm very excited about our guest today. He 0:02:26.800 --> 0:02:29.560 is one of the pre eminent swing coaches on the planet. 0:02:30.320 --> 0:02:33.600 Has taken both a male and female player to world 0:02:33.680 --> 0:02:38.160 number one. Um, it's not but Harmon or David ledbetter 0:02:38.240 --> 0:02:44.399 any any guesses, very well groomed individual, I believe. Okay, Yes, 0:02:44.560 --> 0:02:47.840 that's an excellent guess. Yes, I'm gonna I'm gonna give 0:02:47.919 --> 0:02:50.560 Jeff the uh there's a trigger or anything for you. 0:02:50.639 --> 0:02:55.320 Joff so far Canadian mightie, he's Canadian. Yeah. So you 0:02:55.360 --> 0:02:58.440 guys are good man, you're too good. Alright, Sean Folly, 0:02:58.480 --> 0:03:05.079 come on down, show what theself the unveilable? Very well, 0:03:05.160 --> 0:03:08.560 grimpin Dade, look at that. I mean I've been out 0:03:08.639 --> 0:03:11.520 on I've been out on the course there since about 0:03:11.520 --> 0:03:15.120 eight am. So and not that we're out of place, 0:03:15.360 --> 0:03:19.680 it's what you've done with the play. Sean, where are you? 0:03:20.480 --> 0:03:23.480 I mean Orlando in windermeor Sean, have you ever seen 0:03:23.520 --> 0:03:27.040 the movie Oh Brother, Where art thou? Yes? With George 0:03:27.080 --> 0:03:29.160 Clooney and you know the hair paw made is an 0:03:29.160 --> 0:03:32.200 important part of the plot. So do you used apper 0:03:32.280 --> 0:03:36.360 Dan as well? What's your product of choice? I'd have 0:03:36.440 --> 0:03:38.080 to ask my wife what she gets me. I don't 0:03:38.120 --> 0:03:41.760 even remember the name of it. Okay, we basically do 0:03:42.080 --> 0:03:45.160 we do. I'm almost halfway to a tour player, Jeff now, 0:03:45.200 --> 0:03:48.280 because between my manager and my wife actually don't ever 0:03:48.320 --> 0:03:50.200 have to make a decision or do anything myself. So 0:03:50.800 --> 0:03:54.440 isn't it Yeah? It is? But it is also when 0:03:54.440 --> 0:03:56.160 you're in an airport and you don't have to rench 0:03:56.160 --> 0:04:00.560 your own car, that's kind of embarrassing. So it's well, 0:04:00.640 --> 0:04:03.720 you're living the dream, Sean. I thought we would start 0:04:03.760 --> 0:04:05.840 with something easy and low pressure. I want you to 0:04:05.840 --> 0:04:08.640 tell us what you like most about Jeff Ogilvie's golf swing, 0:04:08.640 --> 0:04:11.720 and if there's anything you'd want to tinker with the 0:04:12.000 --> 0:04:15.280 floor is yours? Yeah, I mean it's been a minute 0:04:15.320 --> 0:04:16.919 since I've seen it. When I used to see it 0:04:16.960 --> 0:04:18.800 all the time, it was working pretty good. I mean, 0:04:18.800 --> 0:04:21.000 if you don't like hitting for irons straight up into 0:04:21.040 --> 0:04:24.359 the sky, um, I think you know when you have 0:04:24.440 --> 0:04:27.680 great players, like for anybody, I think a lot of 0:04:28.040 --> 0:04:34.039 guys swing start to they kind of adapt around the 0:04:34.080 --> 0:04:38.039 surface that players play off of. And so it's like 0:04:38.080 --> 0:04:41.520 when you come to Florida here and it's super grainy 0:04:41.560 --> 0:04:43.760 and really sandy, a lot of guys really leaned the 0:04:43.839 --> 0:04:46.760 shaft hard and trapped the ball. But I think when 0:04:46.760 --> 0:04:49.040 you go to certain other parts, like a lot of 0:04:49.040 --> 0:04:51.880 guys from Australia were really good pickers. Now they still 0:04:51.920 --> 0:04:54.880 play in the wind, but I think a lot of 0:04:54.920 --> 0:04:56.839 the services that you could grow up on at the 0:04:56.880 --> 0:05:00.599 good courses in Australia, it's gonna be pretty firm and quick, 0:05:00.680 --> 0:05:02.640 So I think some of that changed it. But then 0:05:02.720 --> 0:05:04.960 also know Jeff one of my original friends on the 0:05:04.960 --> 0:05:08.440 PGA tour, it was Aldge who was Jeff's coach like 0:05:08.560 --> 0:05:11.560 forever and ever and ever, so you know, he he 0:05:11.920 --> 0:05:13.919 had a lot of time in his back swing, released 0:05:13.920 --> 0:05:16.760 the club really nice, kind of emulated his pitching motion 0:05:17.640 --> 0:05:20.000 around the green and you know where he's known for 0:05:20.080 --> 0:05:22.159 one of the most famous pitch shots in the history 0:05:22.200 --> 0:05:25.919 of major championship. But yeah, I'm sure he hated his swing, 0:05:25.960 --> 0:05:28.440 but I liked his ball flight. And and that's really 0:05:28.440 --> 0:05:31.200 what it comes down to is that, you know, because 0:05:31.240 --> 0:05:33.360 of we're human beings, and in our d n A 0:05:33.480 --> 0:05:36.920 there's fanity based on tribal acceptance and stuff. We're more 0:05:36.960 --> 0:05:39.680 concerned sometimes about how something looks than how it works. 0:05:40.120 --> 0:05:42.960 And I definitely in in the past I fell victim 0:05:43.040 --> 0:05:46.160 to that as a coach, rather than looking at how 0:05:46.200 --> 0:05:49.440 someone's hitting the ball. So I think, you know, you 0:05:49.560 --> 0:05:51.680 listen to the commentators say there's a thousand ways of 0:05:51.680 --> 0:05:54.280 swinging club, there really is not a thousand ways of 0:05:54.320 --> 0:05:57.479 swinging club. And I think, what there's probably about three 0:05:58.240 --> 0:06:01.799 different types of profiles. It's just everyone doing it looks 0:06:01.800 --> 0:06:05.039 so different that it ends up looking different. But I 0:06:05.080 --> 0:06:09.680 think if you understand that basically, how I try to 0:06:09.720 --> 0:06:12.920 think about it is that I'm a tailor and I provide, 0:06:13.720 --> 0:06:16.960 you know, this incredible wool. But how everyone's suit gets 0:06:17.000 --> 0:06:19.119 made is going to be slightly different. But it doesn't 0:06:19.120 --> 0:06:21.760 mean that the wolves not identical. So when you look 0:06:21.800 --> 0:06:24.600 at the dynamics of what made things happen in the swing, 0:06:25.160 --> 0:06:27.160 as far as the body and then as far as 0:06:27.200 --> 0:06:30.279 the physics with the club and then the geometry of 0:06:30.320 --> 0:06:34.760 a flat service hitting around object, everyone's suit looks slightly different, 0:06:34.839 --> 0:06:40.560 but inherently the dynamics are identical. Very interesting. Uh, you've 0:06:40.600 --> 0:06:44.760 you've always been shown a very very cerebral person and teacher. 0:06:45.200 --> 0:06:48.039 What has been your own learning process been like through 0:06:48.080 --> 0:06:51.000 all these years of teaching. I guess you just keep 0:06:51.000 --> 0:06:53.760 trying to get down to the root of things UM, 0:06:55.200 --> 0:06:56.760 and just trying to get down to the root of 0:06:56.839 --> 0:07:01.159 human movements. So for me, I grew up looking at 0:07:01.200 --> 0:07:04.159 a lot of videos. I grew up My first coach 0:07:04.240 --> 0:07:07.960 was in The Golfing Machine UM, which you know has 0:07:08.040 --> 0:07:09.840 kind of come and gone and come and gone and 0:07:09.880 --> 0:07:14.520 then came again with bryceon d Shambo UM. But really 0:07:14.560 --> 0:07:16.560 that was kind of the first book that had any 0:07:16.680 --> 0:07:20.320 kind of empirical understanding of golf. I was always taught 0:07:20.360 --> 0:07:23.120 golf the game of feel. It's about rhythm, and it 0:07:23.240 --> 0:07:26.320 is about that. But you can't really tell a twenty 0:07:26.400 --> 0:07:29.600 handicap if that's the case, because the reason that world 0:07:29.600 --> 0:07:32.760 class players have such good rhythm is because the force 0:07:32.800 --> 0:07:35.239 they're putting into the club and the force they're putting 0:07:35.240 --> 0:07:40.160 into the ground, they're just so congruent and they serenade 0:07:40.160 --> 0:07:44.040 one another, so it looks like there's rhythm. Like telling 0:07:44.080 --> 0:07:46.640 someone who has the face open coming down to finish 0:07:46.640 --> 0:07:48.640 in balance they're not going to finish in balance because 0:07:48.680 --> 0:07:51.000 they're gonna put a late torque on the club to 0:07:51.080 --> 0:07:53.280 close it or use the body to come over the top. 0:07:53.360 --> 0:07:56.440 So things like rhythm and balance, they're kind of the 0:07:56.480 --> 0:07:59.800 effects of other things that have happened. So, you know, 0:07:59.840 --> 0:08:02.360 I never really thought twenty five years ago that I 0:08:02.400 --> 0:08:05.239 were to sat in the office of so many pH 0:08:05.360 --> 0:08:08.200 d s when I first started coaching, But it just 0:08:08.280 --> 0:08:11.320 felt like when I listened to the great coaches in 0:08:11.360 --> 0:08:14.720 the world and I read all these articles and golf magazines, 0:08:15.960 --> 0:08:18.040 you know, some said get your elbow like this, and 0:08:18.080 --> 0:08:20.280 some said get your elbow like this, and some said, 0:08:20.360 --> 0:08:22.680 you know, make sure your grips like this, or you 0:08:22.720 --> 0:08:24.680 can't play like this. And if your grips like this, 0:08:24.720 --> 0:08:27.360 you won't be able to play. And then I used 0:08:27.400 --> 0:08:29.840 to work at the Canadian Open as a kid. I 0:08:29.880 --> 0:08:34.559 worked on the range, and so I would was so 0:08:34.800 --> 0:08:37.680 I was so into it and was so observant that 0:08:37.760 --> 0:08:39.880 I started looking at a bunch of guys doing things 0:08:39.880 --> 0:08:43.280 that you weren't allowed to do and be incredibly successful 0:08:43.320 --> 0:08:46.560 at it. And so it just, you know, it's it's 0:08:46.600 --> 0:08:50.680 it's it's humanity, right, we fall into this spectrum of 0:08:50.679 --> 0:08:55.240 indoctrination and domestication and an acceptance. And so you know, 0:08:55.520 --> 0:08:57.960 like the education system we have, no one is being 0:08:58.000 --> 0:09:00.720 taught to be free thinkers. It's want to really work 0:09:00.760 --> 0:09:03.320 for the system if we're just robots, right, and so 0:09:03.840 --> 0:09:07.319 create this base set of beliefs, live within those beliefs. 0:09:07.360 --> 0:09:10.240 If we challenge those beliefs, get attacked by everyone who 0:09:10.240 --> 0:09:13.000 believes it. And so it's not really that much different, 0:09:13.080 --> 0:09:16.960 is it, Like everything is the same from you know, 0:09:17.080 --> 0:09:22.920 I mean, look like people like Isaac Newton. I mean 0:09:22.960 --> 0:09:25.720 he was brandished as crazy until people realize that he 0:09:25.800 --> 0:09:28.080 was right. So I think, you know, as I've been 0:09:28.080 --> 0:09:30.559 out on tour, was one of the first people to 0:09:30.640 --> 0:09:33.840 use a track man all of those things. Um that 0:09:33.960 --> 0:09:37.720 brought with it its own criticism and using high speed cameras. 0:09:37.840 --> 0:09:40.560 And I guess at the end of the day, if 0:09:40.559 --> 0:09:44.440 I go into the e er, I want them to 0:09:44.559 --> 0:09:47.520 measure what they want to guess, and they will measure it. 0:09:47.920 --> 0:09:50.480 And so of course the our doctor has a lot 0:09:50.520 --> 0:09:53.040 of experience and he knows with what I'm telling in 0:09:53.160 --> 0:09:56.920 my symptoms are it's probably one of three things, but 0:09:57.040 --> 0:10:00.720 it can also be a thousand things. But within his experience, 0:10:00.720 --> 0:10:03.680 it's within three. But that doesn't mean that he doesn't 0:10:03.679 --> 0:10:05.559 have me take an X ray or do an m 0:10:05.679 --> 0:10:08.720 r I or do a cat scan. So he probably 0:10:08.760 --> 0:10:12.000 knows the signs of a concussion, but he's also going 0:10:12.080 --> 0:10:15.680 to check it to make sure that he's that he's correct. 0:10:15.800 --> 0:10:19.000 So you know, that's the difference now is if you 0:10:19.040 --> 0:10:23.040 look at the great swings from the fifties, they're still 0:10:23.120 --> 0:10:25.839 swings like that today. Of course, the technology has changed 0:10:25.880 --> 0:10:29.800 a little bit um to where the ball launches higher 0:10:29.800 --> 0:10:32.559 and doesn't spin as much. So obviously when you look 0:10:32.600 --> 0:10:35.640 at the great players, you know Darwin is right. Their 0:10:35.720 --> 0:10:38.200 ability to adapt to their environment is just at a 0:10:38.240 --> 0:10:42.840 higher level than most. Um, So that's maybe slightly different. 0:10:42.920 --> 0:10:46.520 But how Jack nick, how Jack Nicholas developed power back 0:10:46.520 --> 0:10:49.560 in the Bay, and how Bryson learned to is no different. 0:10:50.320 --> 0:10:54.760 It's no difference. So um, camera Champ has the fastest 0:10:54.760 --> 0:10:57.120 club ed speed, that's because he has the fastest hand speed. 0:10:57.600 --> 0:10:59.000 When I was a kid, they said if you had 0:10:59.040 --> 0:11:01.400 fast hips, you'd hit it far. But I teach a 0:11:01.480 --> 0:11:04.480 bunch of junior golfers whose hips point left of the 0:11:04.520 --> 0:11:06.520 targeted impact and they don't hit the ball that far 0:11:06.520 --> 0:11:09.800 because their hands aren't moving that fast. So even even 0:11:09.840 --> 0:11:12.160 in the deep dive into the science, it still brings 0:11:12.240 --> 0:11:17.720 us back the back that you know, Jack Nicholas and 0:11:17.760 --> 0:11:20.320 Tiger Woods when they talk, they talk about their hands 0:11:20.320 --> 0:11:22.439 and their grip and what they're doing with their hands 0:11:22.440 --> 0:11:24.800 and arms. So I was being taught to lag the 0:11:24.800 --> 0:11:27.600 club as much as I could, And I'm listening to 0:11:27.679 --> 0:11:30.080 Nicholas and Greg Norman at the Canadian Open talk about 0:11:30.080 --> 0:11:32.520 how they can't release the club early enough from the top, 0:11:32.800 --> 0:11:36.640 and I'm like, what does that even mean? So there's 0:11:36.679 --> 0:11:39.559 a big difference between something lagging behind you and then 0:11:39.600 --> 0:11:43.400 you dragging it behind you. So um, just you know, 0:11:44.280 --> 0:11:46.720 growing up and then teaching me about this perfect swing plane. 0:11:46.720 --> 0:11:49.360 Now I'm at the Canadian Open and I'm watching Lee 0:11:49.400 --> 0:11:52.920 Trevino and Jim Furick and a young Sergio Garcia and 0:11:52.920 --> 0:11:55.400 I'm like, what is this swing plane people are talking about? 0:11:55.440 --> 0:11:58.320 I'm not seeing it. So when you dive more into physics, 0:11:58.400 --> 0:12:02.240 you understand why all those kind of loop under moves 0:12:02.400 --> 0:12:05.559 ended up being very efficient because you're dealing with a 0:12:05.640 --> 0:12:09.080 regular momentum. So it's no different than anything in gravity, Like, 0:12:09.720 --> 0:12:14.240 for example of a water skier is going behind the 0:12:14.280 --> 0:12:16.960 boat at forty miles an hour and the boats going 0:12:17.040 --> 0:12:19.120 forty miles an hour. As soon as the boat starts 0:12:19.160 --> 0:12:21.520 to slow down, in art, the water skier gets thrown 0:12:21.559 --> 0:12:24.800 outside the wake. So technically you have to get the 0:12:24.840 --> 0:12:27.280 skier behind the boat. And then we were all told 0:12:27.320 --> 0:12:28.760 to put the club in front of us, and that 0:12:28.880 --> 0:12:31.559 ruined a lot of backs and next and a lot 0:12:31.600 --> 0:12:36.160 of impact positions. So it's uh. I think where Jeff 0:12:36.200 --> 0:12:40.280 was kind of lucky was that it wasn't it wasn't 0:12:40.320 --> 0:12:43.800 massively a method um that the guys were being coached. 0:12:43.800 --> 0:12:45.480 But I think if you look back to that time 0:12:49.840 --> 0:12:53.240 to to me, you can watch players do the same 0:12:53.360 --> 0:12:55.800 drills and their swings all look quite a bit different, 0:12:55.880 --> 0:12:58.080 And then you can watch players do different drills and 0:12:58.080 --> 0:13:00.680 their swing looking the same, and that's all an indicator 0:13:00.720 --> 0:13:03.640 that someone doesn't really know what they're doing. Because there's 0:13:03.640 --> 0:13:09.520 gonna be nuances um in how people move. So when 0:13:09.520 --> 0:13:12.480 people look at like a Cameron Champ and they're like, man, 0:13:12.520 --> 0:13:16.920 how does he do that? Cameron is incredibly naturally strong 0:13:17.080 --> 0:13:20.400 and incredibly naturally mobile. I mean, this guy doesn't work 0:13:20.440 --> 0:13:25.040 out fretch and he can move into any position the 0:13:25.040 --> 0:13:27.440 body needs to move in, and a kid who doesn't 0:13:27.480 --> 0:13:29.719 work out can do twenty two wide grip pull ups 0:13:29.760 --> 0:13:33.000 without even trying. So what happens is people see what 0:13:33.080 --> 0:13:35.360 Cameron's doing and they try to match that, but they 0:13:35.400 --> 0:13:39.720 don't have the understanding below at really how much of 0:13:39.760 --> 0:13:42.880 a unicorn that he is, and that guys like him 0:13:42.920 --> 0:13:47.680 are typically in Aussie rules football or US football or 0:13:47.920 --> 0:13:49.800 you know what I'm saying, they weren't really golfers. So 0:13:49.840 --> 0:13:52.040 I think when we see these young players today like 0:13:52.840 --> 0:13:59.280 Joaquin Neeman, Cameron Champ, uh Medo Pereira, Victor Hovlin, they're 0:13:59.320 --> 0:14:01.880 doing the same things that everyone else is doing. They 0:14:01.960 --> 0:14:04.839 just have the ability to do some of the things 0:14:04.880 --> 0:14:08.280 that look different and somehow don't hurt. They're back doing it. 0:14:09.080 --> 0:14:13.080 So if you're looking, for example, in baseball, you'll you'll 0:14:13.080 --> 0:14:16.080 see how many how many pitchers in the draft are 0:14:16.160 --> 0:14:22.160 side arm pictures. Well, no one teaches people how to throw, uh, 0:14:22.360 --> 0:14:26.600 you know, side arm. But a kid picks up the 0:14:26.600 --> 0:14:30.760 ball and just starts throwing side arm. Well, in most cases, 0:14:30.800 --> 0:14:33.280 if you change him to doing this, he's probably gonna 0:14:33.320 --> 0:14:37.880 be done right. So it's it's unique that he generates 0:14:37.880 --> 0:14:40.320 a lot of energy from side arm versus from here. 0:14:40.680 --> 0:14:42.960 The mechanics of this says that the ball will move 0:14:43.000 --> 0:14:47.120 faster and you'd have more accuracy. But like, I think 0:14:47.120 --> 0:14:50.040 one of the greatest coaching testaments to coaching ever is 0:14:50.120 --> 0:14:53.240 Mike Ferett. Like Jim Feret's dad, he just let Jim 0:14:53.320 --> 0:14:55.320 keep swinging the way that he was swinging. And I 0:14:55.360 --> 0:14:58.400 think if you look at Jim kind of from rib 0:14:58.480 --> 0:15:01.240 cage to rib cage, I mean, that's what so many 0:15:01.240 --> 0:15:03.920 people are trying to emulate, right, being able to bend 0:15:03.920 --> 0:15:06.600 and rotate and not have to use your hands as much. 0:15:07.040 --> 0:15:09.720 But I mean, sure just did an incredible job to 0:15:09.800 --> 0:15:12.640 block everyone out and keep doing Jim. So I think, 0:15:13.040 --> 0:15:16.080 I think my knowledge has grown so much. But in 0:15:16.200 --> 0:15:20.800 that like I've never I know more than I ever have, 0:15:20.960 --> 0:15:22.800 which leads me to believe that I don't really know 0:15:22.840 --> 0:15:25.400 a whole lot because they keep learning it. So if 0:15:25.400 --> 0:15:28.600 someone comes to me twenty years ago and they're hitting 0:15:28.600 --> 0:15:30.960 the ball, well, but I kind of don't like something 0:15:31.000 --> 0:15:34.880 I'm seeing. I'm still domesticated in my methodology and my 0:15:34.960 --> 0:15:37.920 belief system, and so I try to make it look 0:15:37.960 --> 0:15:40.400 more like I think it should. Whereas now if I 0:15:40.480 --> 0:15:42.360 have a young man or young woman come to me 0:15:42.760 --> 0:15:44.560 and they hit the ball great and they have no 0:15:44.880 --> 0:15:48.760 injuries or anything lingering from it, Um, there's so many 0:15:48.800 --> 0:15:50.800 things to teach them. Like most of these kids don't 0:15:50.840 --> 0:15:53.600 even understand the importance of breathing and its effect on 0:15:53.680 --> 0:15:56.920 the nervous system. So they're sitting with sports psychologists who 0:15:56.920 --> 0:15:59.440 are trying to get them to have better thinking. Where 0:15:59.720 --> 0:16:01.720 when you play their best, they're clear. So it's not 0:16:01.800 --> 0:16:04.320 really about better thinking, is it. It's about less thinking? 0:16:04.840 --> 0:16:06.720 And how can I get to a point where I 0:16:06.840 --> 0:16:11.480 wind that down? Well, if I learned to breathe properly, um, 0:16:11.480 --> 0:16:13.760 that I'm able to do that. So the difference is 0:16:13.800 --> 0:16:17.120 there's a change to the nervous system. So back in 0:16:17.160 --> 0:16:18.680 the day, for me, that would have been like a 0:16:18.720 --> 0:16:21.640 positive talk, or have a better attitude on the course, 0:16:21.760 --> 0:16:24.800 or have a better mindset. But whenever my attitude is 0:16:24.840 --> 0:16:27.680 good or my mindset is good, I've done nothing to 0:16:27.760 --> 0:16:30.640 ask for it. I'm just there, like that's just where 0:16:30.640 --> 0:16:33.200 I'm at. So when I'm in a good mood, I 0:16:33.240 --> 0:16:35.480 can't put my finger on why I'm in a good mood. 0:16:35.840 --> 0:16:38.840 People will say well, your players are playing good, you've 0:16:38.840 --> 0:16:40.520 got a great wife, and you've got great kids, and 0:16:40.520 --> 0:16:42.880 you've been successful. Well all that ship is true on 0:16:42.960 --> 0:16:46.000 my worst day. So life is an inside job. It 0:16:46.080 --> 0:16:47.840 can't come from outside of me. So trying to get 0:16:47.880 --> 0:16:50.640 these kids now to understand like the answers are already 0:16:50.680 --> 0:16:53.040 inside of you. It's my job to ask the right 0:16:53.120 --> 0:16:58.440 questions and if if the kid is as hungry and obsessed, 0:16:58.680 --> 0:17:02.320 they will come to it. They'll they'll they'll sort it out. 0:17:02.400 --> 0:17:05.119 But I think the environment has a huge aspect on 0:17:05.200 --> 0:17:08.240 how people learn to swing the golf club if they're 0:17:08.320 --> 0:17:12.160 passionate and curious, and then the next step of success 0:17:12.200 --> 0:17:16.920 is obviously sacrifice. Well, this was the need of fourth podcast. 0:17:16.960 --> 0:17:20.160 Thank you for listening. Thanks to Sean Foley. I'm just kidding. 0:17:20.200 --> 0:17:22.199 We're gonna keep going. But that was that was an 0:17:22.200 --> 0:17:26.159 amazing answer. They touched on so many things. Um, but 0:17:26.560 --> 0:17:30.560 you know, obviously your your time as a kid as 0:17:30.560 --> 0:17:34.359 a fan at the Canadian Open was was monumental in 0:17:34.640 --> 0:17:36.919 your in your journey. And I don't know if this 0:17:37.000 --> 0:17:39.080 is apocryphal of this is true, but you're at the 0:17:39.160 --> 0:17:40.760 range of the Canadie Open as a kid and you're 0:17:40.760 --> 0:17:44.119 watching David Ledbetter work with Nick Faldo, and as the 0:17:44.160 --> 0:17:46.240 story goes, that's when you decide you want to be 0:17:46.320 --> 0:17:49.440 a swing coach. And is there a kernel of truth 0:17:49.440 --> 0:17:52.320 in that tale? Yeah, I mean I think. I don't 0:17:52.359 --> 0:17:54.359 think I said right then, like I'm going to go 0:17:54.400 --> 0:17:56.360 and work with a bunch of psychopaths for the rest 0:17:56.359 --> 0:18:03.639 of my life. But it was, uh um, it was 0:18:03.680 --> 0:18:07.359 just really cool to see. And then you know, my 0:18:07.440 --> 0:18:10.280 first coach was Greg mccatton, who's like at the hierarchy 0:18:10.280 --> 0:18:12.600 of the golf machine. And then I was really lucky 0:18:12.640 --> 0:18:15.480 that my dad was really careful on who he put 0:18:15.520 --> 0:18:18.080 me around his men, because he understood, like thirteen or 0:18:18.119 --> 0:18:21.360 fourteen boys kind of tend to stop listening to their dad. 0:18:21.480 --> 0:18:24.560 But if you can find like minded other guys, like, 0:18:24.960 --> 0:18:27.760 for example, my son's personal trainer that he works out with. 0:18:28.200 --> 0:18:30.280 I mean, if I call him and say, hey, can 0:18:30.320 --> 0:18:31.919 you talk to him about listening to his mom and 0:18:31.960 --> 0:18:34.159 being organized, I mean, Quinn's all over it, right. This 0:18:34.720 --> 0:18:37.639 guy's a god to him. And so my dad just 0:18:37.640 --> 0:18:41.280 put me around excellent mentors. So I went from the 0:18:41.280 --> 0:18:45.560 golfing machine the Shaughnessy in Vancouver, where Jack McLaughlin was 0:18:45.600 --> 0:18:49.120 the was the head throw and Jack McLaughlin was kind 0:18:49.119 --> 0:18:53.000 of the Western, you know, at the goat of the 0:18:53.600 --> 0:18:56.480 Canadian PGA on the West and he worked with quite 0:18:56.520 --> 0:18:59.880 a few tour players, dig Zogl, Laurie Kane, Brent Frank 0:19:00.040 --> 0:19:01.760 and that's a name from the past year. He's a 0:19:01.760 --> 0:19:07.080 little older than us Um and Ray Stewart and so 0:19:07.240 --> 0:19:09.440 I used to sit on a wire basket. But what 0:19:09.480 --> 0:19:11.280 he would do is he that guys like take their 0:19:11.320 --> 0:19:14.399 shoes off and hit, you know, two six irons out 0:19:14.440 --> 0:19:17.840 of the fairway bunker. So I went from angles and 0:19:18.000 --> 0:19:21.480 planes and all this to now watching someone create, like 0:19:21.520 --> 0:19:24.480 a completely different experience, and realized that it was really 0:19:24.520 --> 0:19:28.040 about both. And then when we moved back to Toronto 0:19:28.320 --> 0:19:31.439 the next year, my dad got me a job fixing 0:19:31.520 --> 0:19:34.720 divots at the National Golf Club in Woodbridge, which is 0:19:34.760 --> 0:19:38.119 like probably the hardest, best golf course in Canada. And 0:19:38.160 --> 0:19:41.320 so Ben was the first Canadian to be a First 0:19:41.320 --> 0:19:43.760 Team All American in college in New Mexico State, was 0:19:43.800 --> 0:19:47.439 sponsored onto the PGA tour by Lee Trevino uh and 0:19:47.480 --> 0:19:50.880 then became a disciple and best friend of George Knudson 0:19:51.280 --> 0:19:54.199 and Nukeson is like the Hogan of Canada, right. The 0:19:54.200 --> 0:19:56.440 only difference is he had liked of a sling drawn. 0:19:56.520 --> 0:19:59.280 Hogan didn't draw it as much, but he didn't even 0:19:59.320 --> 0:20:03.199 cut it that much either. So, uh, I just was 0:20:03.280 --> 0:20:06.360 around these guys who had these jobs that looked fantastic. 0:20:06.400 --> 0:20:08.240 They looked a lot happier than the people who lived 0:20:08.240 --> 0:20:12.080 in my neighborhood. Um, you know, they were revered and respected. 0:20:12.080 --> 0:20:13.720 They got to spend the whole day to golf course 0:20:13.760 --> 0:20:16.199 work with all these great players. So really, from the 0:20:16.240 --> 0:20:21.240 time I'm like probably fourteen, until I go to college 0:20:21.280 --> 0:20:25.360 at nineteen, my you know, six months of my year 0:20:25.440 --> 0:20:29.800 is spent on arrange with tour players, either practicing or 0:20:29.880 --> 0:20:32.960 watching them practice. So it's like it's a species that 0:20:33.040 --> 0:20:36.679 I understand very very well. Um, and they were like 0:20:36.760 --> 0:20:39.560 gods to me, and so I kind of I saw 0:20:39.920 --> 0:20:42.639 what to do, what not to do, you know. I 0:20:42.640 --> 0:20:44.200 mean that was the first time as a key to 0:20:44.240 --> 0:20:46.680 seeing a guy playing his best golf change his equipment 0:20:46.760 --> 0:20:48.600 and then I'm playing like ship and go on, why 0:20:48.600 --> 0:20:51.919 did you do that? But um, you know, there's some 0:20:51.960 --> 0:20:54.480 really good books out there on self sabotage, but I'm 0:20:54.520 --> 0:20:57.080 not really academically at the point where I can explain 0:20:57.119 --> 0:21:00.600 it yet, but it's a real thing. Alan, Can I 0:21:00.640 --> 0:21:03.959 post a question to Jeff that will that I know 0:21:04.040 --> 0:21:06.440 Sean will be interested in as well. Jeff, when when 0:21:06.440 --> 0:21:09.000 you got on tour and there's a lot of swing 0:21:09.080 --> 0:21:13.440 coaches out there, how did you know who you might 0:21:14.400 --> 0:21:17.080 fit up, who you might match with in a in 0:21:17.119 --> 0:21:21.480