Speaker 1: Golf. Is that they anything in golf that doesn't change,
Speaker 1: anything that changes the best in playing? Does this man
Speaker 1: a one time winner on the PGA Tour. The point
Speaker 1: Alan is he didn't go Hollywood. You need a fourth Well, Michael,
Speaker 1: this is the point in the programmer. We always tip
Speaker 1: our caps to our corporate sponsors, Echo who the purveyors
Speaker 1: a very stylish and comfortable footwear that I know you're
Speaker 1: a fan of as m I, Um, I feel like
Speaker 1: you have someone you want to stay here the jump
Speaker 1: in please you know I actually enjoyed this part against
Speaker 1: all odds. But you don't want to ask me the
Speaker 1: question I've tied up for you. Oh yes, you want
Speaker 1: to discuss laces and laces? Yes, I think part Thank
Speaker 1: you for reminding me. Um, I think part of a
Speaker 1: quality product. No matter what the product is, whether it's
Speaker 1: a Mercedes Benz or or an Echo golf shoe. UM
Speaker 1: attention to detail is always paid. Our guest today, Sean
Speaker 1: Foley is from Orlando. Orlando is a longtime home of
Speaker 1: Arnold Palmer. I dropped Arnold Palmer's name way too often,
Speaker 1: but also every opportunity I can, and one Arnold's things
Speaker 1: was before every tournament, put in a new pair of laces,
Speaker 1: because you don't want to be like Saturday morning in
Speaker 1: the lace breaks, Like I got a lot of other
Speaker 1: things in my mind. I really don't want to be
Speaker 1: putting a new laces. So he put new laces every week.
Speaker 1: I think that every time. By the way, every time
Speaker 1: I wear golf shoes, it's only Echo shoes because as
Speaker 1: were the only shoes I own. Um, but I think
Speaker 1: of the quality of the Echo lace and the fact
Speaker 1: that I don't need to change them every week. I
Speaker 1: don't need to change them ever they seem to I
Speaker 1: don't know what they've done right, but they do the
Speaker 1: two things you want. They don't break and they stay tired.
Speaker 1: Have you had a and I've not died your echo shoes.
Speaker 1: You've got a different one You've got You've got a wide,
Speaker 1: flat lace. I've got more of a knotted kind of lace.
Speaker 1: But it's got a cotton quality to it that holds
Speaker 1: its grip. If that's the term of the art. I'm
Speaker 1: inspired by the care and the thought you've put into
Speaker 1: the laces, and um, I may not share it, but
Speaker 1: all I know is I put my Echo shoes on.
Speaker 1: They work, They sticked me to the ground during my
Speaker 1: incredibly fast swing speed and their comfy and they look
Speaker 1: good and um so thank you echo back dena fourth Well,
Speaker 1: Jeff Michael, I'm very excited about our guest today. He
Speaker 1: is one of the pre eminent swing coaches on the planet.
Speaker 1: Has taken both a male and female player to world
Speaker 1: number one. Um, it's not but Harmon or David ledbetter
Speaker 1: any any guesses, very well groomed individual, I believe. Okay, Yes,
Speaker 1: that's an excellent guess. Yes, I'm gonna I'm gonna give
Speaker 1: Jeff the uh there's a trigger or anything for you.
Speaker 1: Joff so far Canadian mightie, he's Canadian. Yeah. So you
Speaker 1: guys are good man, you're too good. Alright, Sean Folly,
Speaker 1: come on down, show what theself the unveilable? Very well,
Speaker 1: grimpin Dade, look at that. I mean I've been out
Speaker 1: on I've been out on the course there since about
Speaker 1: eight am. So and not that we're out of place,
Speaker 1: it's what you've done with the play. Sean, where are you?
Speaker 1: I mean Orlando in windermeor Sean, have you ever seen
Speaker 1: the movie Oh Brother, Where art thou? Yes? With George
Speaker 1: Clooney and you know the hair paw made is an
Speaker 1: important part of the plot. So do you used apper
Speaker 1: Dan as well? What's your product of choice? I'd have
Speaker 1: to ask my wife what she gets me. I don't
Speaker 1: even remember the name of it. Okay, we basically do
Speaker 1: we do. I'm almost halfway to a tour player, Jeff now,
Speaker 1: because between my manager and my wife actually don't ever
Speaker 1: have to make a decision or do anything myself. So
Speaker 1: isn't it Yeah? It is? But it is also when
Speaker 1: you're in an airport and you don't have to rench
Speaker 1: your own car, that's kind of embarrassing. So it's well,
Speaker 1: you're living the dream, Sean. I thought we would start
Speaker 1: with something easy and low pressure. I want you to
Speaker 1: tell us what you like most about Jeff Ogilvie's golf swing,
Speaker 1: and if there's anything you'd want to tinker with the
Speaker 1: floor is yours? Yeah, I mean it's been a minute
Speaker 1: since I've seen it. When I used to see it
Speaker 1: all the time, it was working pretty good. I mean,
Speaker 1: if you don't like hitting for irons straight up into
Speaker 1: the sky, um, I think you know when you have
Speaker 1: great players, like for anybody, I think a lot of
Speaker 1: guys swing start to they kind of adapt around the
Speaker 1: surface that players play off of. And so it's like
Speaker 1: when you come to Florida here and it's super grainy
Speaker 1: and really sandy, a lot of guys really leaned the
Speaker 1: shaft hard and trapped the ball. But I think when
Speaker 1: you go to certain other parts, like a lot of
Speaker 1: guys from Australia were really good pickers. Now they still
Speaker 1: play in the wind, but I think a lot of
Speaker 1: the services that you could grow up on at the
Speaker 1: good courses in Australia, it's gonna be pretty firm and quick,
Speaker 1: So I think some of that changed it. But then
Speaker 1: also know Jeff one of my original friends on the
Speaker 1: PGA tour, it was Aldge who was Jeff's coach like
Speaker 1: forever and ever and ever, so you know, he he
Speaker 1: had a lot of time in his back swing, released
Speaker 1: the club really nice, kind of emulated his pitching motion
Speaker 1: around the green and you know where he's known for
Speaker 1: one of the most famous pitch shots in the history
Speaker 1: of major championship. But yeah, I'm sure he hated his swing,
Speaker 1: but I liked his ball flight. And and that's really
Speaker 1: what it comes down to is that, you know, because
Speaker 1: of we're human beings, and in our d n A
Speaker 1: there's fanity based on tribal acceptance and stuff. We're more
Speaker 1: concerned sometimes about how something looks than how it works.
Speaker 1: And I definitely in in the past I fell victim
Speaker 1: to that as a coach, rather than looking at how
Speaker 1: someone's hitting the ball. So I think, you know, you
Speaker 1: listen to the commentators say there's a thousand ways of
Speaker 1: swinging club, there really is not a thousand ways of
Speaker 1: swinging club. And I think, what there's probably about three
Speaker 1: different types of profiles. It's just everyone doing it looks
Speaker 1: so different that it ends up looking different. But I
Speaker 1: think if you understand that basically, how I try to
Speaker 1: think about it is that I'm a tailor and I provide,
Speaker 1: you know, this incredible wool. But how everyone's suit gets
Speaker 1: made is going to be slightly different. But it doesn't
Speaker 1: mean that the wolves not identical. So when you look
Speaker 1: at the dynamics of what made things happen in the swing,
Speaker 1: as far as the body and then as far as
Speaker 1: the physics with the club and then the geometry of
Speaker 1: a flat service hitting around object, everyone's suit looks slightly different,
Speaker 1: but inherently the dynamics are identical. Very interesting. Uh, you've
Speaker 1: you've always been shown a very very cerebral person and teacher.
Speaker 1: What has been your own learning process been like through
Speaker 1: all these years of teaching. I guess you just keep
Speaker 1: trying to get down to the root of things UM,
Speaker 1: and just trying to get down to the root of
Speaker 1: human movements. So for me, I grew up looking at
Speaker 1: a lot of videos. I grew up My first coach
Speaker 1: was in The Golfing Machine UM, which you know has
Speaker 1: kind of come and gone and come and gone and
Speaker 1: then came again with bryceon d Shambo UM. But really
Speaker 1: that was kind of the first book that had any
Speaker 1: kind of empirical understanding of golf. I was always taught
Speaker 1: golf the game of feel. It's about rhythm, and it
Speaker 1: is about that. But you can't really tell a twenty
Speaker 1: handicap if that's the case, because the reason that world
Speaker 1: class players have such good rhythm is because the force
Speaker 1: they're putting into the club and the force they're putting
Speaker 1: into the ground, they're just so congruent and they serenade
Speaker 1: one another, so it looks like there's rhythm. Like telling
Speaker 1: someone who has the face open coming down to finish
Speaker 1: in balance they're not going to finish in balance because
Speaker 1: they're gonna put a late torque on the club to
Speaker 1: close it or use the body to come over the top.
Speaker 1: So things like rhythm and balance, they're kind of the
Speaker 1: effects of other things that have happened. So, you know,
Speaker 1: I never really thought twenty five years ago that I
Speaker 1: were to sat in the office of so many pH
Speaker 1: d s when I first started coaching, But it just
Speaker 1: felt like when I listened to the great coaches in
Speaker 1: the world and I read all these articles and golf magazines,
Speaker 1: you know, some said get your elbow like this, and
Speaker 1: some said get your elbow like this, and some said,
Speaker 1: you know, make sure your grips like this, or you
Speaker 1: can't play like this. And if your grips like this,
Speaker 1: you won't be able to play. And then I used
Speaker 1: to work at the Canadian Open as a kid. I
Speaker 1: worked on the range, and so I would was so
Speaker 1: I was so into it and was so observant that
Speaker 1: I started looking at a bunch of guys doing things
Speaker 1: that you weren't allowed to do and be incredibly successful
Speaker 1: at it. And so it just, you know, it's it's
Speaker 1: it's it's humanity, right, we fall into this spectrum of
Speaker 1: indoctrination and domestication and an acceptance. And so you know,
Speaker 1: like the education system we have, no one is being
Speaker 1: taught to be free thinkers. It's want to really work
Speaker 1: for the system if we're just robots, right, and so
Speaker 1: create this base set of beliefs, live within those beliefs.
Speaker 1: If we challenge those beliefs, get attacked by everyone who
Speaker 1: believes it. And so it's not really that much different,
Speaker 1: is it, Like everything is the same from you know,
Speaker 1: I mean, look like people like Isaac Newton. I mean
Speaker 1: he was brandished as crazy until people realize that he
Speaker 1: was right. So I think, you know, as I've been
Speaker 1: out on tour, was one of the first people to
Speaker 1: use a track man all of those things. Um that
Speaker 1: brought with it its own criticism and using high speed cameras.
Speaker 1: And I guess at the end of the day, if
Speaker 1: I go into the e er, I want them to
Speaker 1: measure what they want to guess, and they will measure it.
Speaker 1: And so of course the our doctor has a lot
Speaker 1: of experience and he knows with what I'm telling in
Speaker 1: my symptoms are it's probably one of three things, but
Speaker 1: it can also be a thousand things. But within his experience,
Speaker 1: it's within three. But that doesn't mean that he doesn't
Speaker 1: have me take an X ray or do an m
Speaker 1: r I or do a cat scan. So he probably
Speaker 1: knows the signs of a concussion, but he's also going
Speaker 1: to check it to make sure that he's that he's correct.
Speaker 1: So you know, that's the difference now is if you
Speaker 1: look at the great swings from the fifties, they're still
Speaker 1: swings like that today. Of course, the technology has changed
Speaker 1: a little bit um to where the ball launches higher
Speaker 1: and doesn't spin as much. So obviously when you look
Speaker 1: at the great players, you know Darwin is right. Their
Speaker 1: ability to adapt to their environment is just at a
Speaker 1: higher level than most. Um, So that's maybe slightly different.
Speaker 1: But how Jack nick, how Jack Nicholas developed power back
Speaker 1: in the Bay, and how Bryson learned to is no different.
Speaker 1: It's no difference. So um, camera Champ has the fastest
Speaker 1: club ed speed, that's because he has the fastest hand speed.
Speaker 1: When I was a kid, they said if you had
Speaker 1: fast hips, you'd hit it far. But I teach a
Speaker 1: bunch of junior golfers whose hips point left of the
Speaker 1: targeted impact and they don't hit the ball that far
Speaker 1: because their hands aren't moving that fast. So even even
Speaker 1: in the deep dive into the science, it still brings
Speaker 1: us back the back that you know, Jack Nicholas and
Speaker 1: Tiger Woods when they talk, they talk about their hands
Speaker 1: and their grip and what they're doing with their hands
Speaker 1: and arms. So I was being taught to lag the
Speaker 1: club as much as I could, And I'm listening to
Speaker 1: Nicholas and Greg Norman at the Canadian Open talk about
Speaker 1: how they can't release the club early enough from the top,
Speaker 1: and I'm like, what does that even mean? So there's
Speaker 1: a big difference between something lagging behind you and then
Speaker 1: you dragging it behind you. So um, just you know,
Speaker 1: growing up and then teaching me about this perfect swing plane.
Speaker 1: Now I'm at the Canadian Open and I'm watching Lee
Speaker 1: Trevino and Jim Furick and a young Sergio Garcia and
Speaker 1: I'm like, what is this swing plane people are talking about?
Speaker 1: I'm not seeing it. So when you dive more into physics,
Speaker 1: you understand why all those kind of loop under moves
Speaker 1: ended up being very efficient because you're dealing with a
Speaker 1: regular momentum. So it's no different than anything in gravity, Like,
Speaker 1: for example of a water skier is going behind the
Speaker 1: boat at forty miles an hour and the boats going
Speaker 1: forty miles an hour. As soon as the boat starts
Speaker 1: to slow down, in art, the water skier gets thrown
Speaker 1: outside the wake. So technically you have to get the
Speaker 1: skier behind the boat. And then we were all told
Speaker 1: to put the club in front of us, and that
Speaker 1: ruined a lot of backs and next and a lot
Speaker 1: of impact positions. So it's uh. I think where Jeff
Speaker 1: was kind of lucky was that it wasn't it wasn't
Speaker 1: massively a method um that the guys were being coached.
Speaker 1: But I think if you look back to that time
Speaker 1: to to me, you can watch players do the same
Speaker 1: drills and their swings all look quite a bit different,
Speaker 1: And then you can watch players do different drills and
Speaker 1: their swing looking the same, and that's all an indicator
Speaker 1: that someone doesn't really know what they're doing. Because there's
Speaker 1: gonna be nuances um in how people move. So when
Speaker 1: people look at like a Cameron Champ and they're like, man,
Speaker 1: how does he do that? Cameron is incredibly naturally strong
Speaker 1: and incredibly naturally mobile. I mean, this guy doesn't work
Speaker 1: out fretch and he can move into any position the
Speaker 1: body needs to move in, and a kid who doesn't
Speaker 1: work out can do twenty two wide grip pull ups
Speaker 1: without even trying. So what happens is people see what
Speaker 1: Cameron's doing and they try to match that, but they
Speaker 1: don't have the understanding below at really how much of
Speaker 1: a unicorn that he is, and that guys like him
Speaker 1: are typically in Aussie rules football or US football or
Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying, they weren't really golfers. So
Speaker 1: I think when we see these young players today like
Speaker 1: Joaquin Neeman, Cameron Champ, uh Medo Pereira, Victor Hovlin, they're
Speaker 1: doing the same things that everyone else is doing. They
Speaker 1: just have the ability to do some of the things
Speaker 1: that look different and somehow don't hurt. They're back doing it.
Speaker 1: So if you're looking, for example, in baseball, you'll you'll
Speaker 1: see how many how many pitchers in the draft are
Speaker 1: side arm pictures. Well, no one teaches people how to throw, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, side arm. But a kid picks up the
Speaker 1: ball and just starts throwing side arm. Well, in most cases,
Speaker 1: if you change him to doing this, he's probably gonna
Speaker 1: be done right. So it's it's unique that he generates
Speaker 1: a lot of energy from side arm versus from here.
Speaker 1: The mechanics of this says that the ball will move
Speaker 1: faster and you'd have more accuracy. But like, I think
Speaker 1: one of the greatest coaching testaments to coaching ever is
Speaker 1: Mike Ferett. Like Jim Feret's dad, he just let Jim
Speaker 1: keep swinging the way that he was swinging. And I
Speaker 1: think if you look at Jim kind of from rib
Speaker 1: cage to rib cage, I mean, that's what so many
Speaker 1: people are trying to emulate, right, being able to bend
Speaker 1: and rotate and not have to use your hands as much.
Speaker 1: But I mean, sure just did an incredible job to
Speaker 1: block everyone out and keep doing Jim. So I think,
Speaker 1: I think my knowledge has grown so much. But in
Speaker 1: that like I've never I know more than I ever have,
Speaker 1: which leads me to believe that I don't really know
Speaker 1: a whole lot because they keep learning it. So if
Speaker 1: someone comes to me twenty years ago and they're hitting
Speaker 1: the ball, well, but I kind of don't like something
Speaker 1: I'm seeing. I'm still domesticated in my methodology and my
Speaker 1: belief system, and so I try to make it look
Speaker 1: more like I think it should. Whereas now if I
Speaker 1: have a young man or young woman come to me
Speaker 1: and they hit the ball great and they have no
Speaker 1: injuries or anything lingering from it, Um, there's so many
Speaker 1: things to teach them. Like most of these kids don't
Speaker 1: even understand the importance of breathing and its effect on
Speaker 1: the nervous system. So they're sitting with sports psychologists who
Speaker 1: are trying to get them to have better thinking. Where
Speaker 1: when you play their best, they're clear. So it's not
Speaker 1: really about better thinking, is it. It's about less thinking?
Speaker 1: And how can I get to a point where I
Speaker 1: wind that down? Well, if I learned to breathe properly, um,
Speaker 1: that I'm able to do that. So the difference is
Speaker 1: there's a change to the nervous system. So back in
Speaker 1: the day, for me, that would have been like a
Speaker 1: positive talk, or have a better attitude on the course,
Speaker 1: or have a better mindset. But whenever my attitude is
Speaker 1: good or my mindset is good, I've done nothing to
Speaker 1: ask for it. I'm just there, like that's just where
Speaker 1: I'm at. So when I'm in a good mood, I
Speaker 1: can't put my finger on why I'm in a good mood.
Speaker 1: People will say well, your players are playing good, you've
Speaker 1: got a great wife, and you've got great kids, and
Speaker 1: you've been successful. Well all that ship is true on
Speaker 1: my worst day. So life is an inside job. It
Speaker 1: can't come from outside of me. So trying to get
Speaker 1: these kids now to understand like the answers are already
Speaker 1: inside of you. It's my job to ask the right
Speaker 1: questions and if if the kid is as hungry and obsessed,
Speaker 1: they will come to it. They'll they'll they'll sort it out.
Speaker 1: But I think the environment has a huge aspect on
Speaker 1: how people learn to swing the golf club if they're
Speaker 1: passionate and curious, and then the next step of success
Speaker 1: is obviously sacrifice. Well, this was the need of fourth podcast.
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening. Thanks to Sean Foley. I'm just kidding.
Speaker 1: We're gonna keep going. But that was that was an
Speaker 1: amazing answer. They touched on so many things. Um, but
Speaker 1: you know, obviously your your time as a kid as
Speaker 1: a fan at the Canadian Open was was monumental in
Speaker 1: your in your journey. And I don't know if this
Speaker 1: is apocryphal of this is true, but you're at the
Speaker 1: range of the Canadie Open as a kid and you're
Speaker 1: watching David Ledbetter work with Nick Faldo, and as the
Speaker 1: story goes, that's when you decide you want to be
Speaker 1: a swing coach. And is there a kernel of truth
Speaker 1: in that tale? Yeah, I mean I think. I don't
Speaker 1: think I said right then, like I'm going to go
Speaker 1: and work with a bunch of psychopaths for the rest
Speaker 1: of my life. But it was, uh um, it was
Speaker 1: just really cool to see. And then you know, my
Speaker 1: first coach was Greg mccatton, who's like at the hierarchy
Speaker 1: of the golf machine. And then I was really lucky
Speaker 1: that my dad was really careful on who he put
Speaker 1: me around his men, because he understood, like thirteen or
Speaker 1: fourteen boys kind of tend to stop listening to their dad.
Speaker 1: But if you can find like minded other guys, like,
Speaker 1: for example, my son's personal trainer that he works out with.
Speaker 1: I mean, if I call him and say, hey, can
Speaker 1: you talk to him about listening to his mom and
Speaker 1: being organized, I mean, Quinn's all over it, right. This
Speaker 1: guy's a god to him. And so my dad just
Speaker 1: put me around excellent mentors. So I went from the
Speaker 1: golfing machine the Shaughnessy in Vancouver, where Jack McLaughlin was
Speaker 1: the was the head throw and Jack McLaughlin was kind
Speaker 1: of the Western, you know, at the goat of the
Speaker 1: Canadian PGA on the West and he worked with quite
Speaker 1: a few tour players, dig Zogl, Laurie Kane, Brent Frank
Speaker 1: and that's a name from the past year. He's a
Speaker 1: little older than us Um and Ray Stewart and so
Speaker 1: I used to sit on a wire basket. But what
Speaker 1: he would do is he that guys like take their
Speaker 1: shoes off and hit, you know, two six irons out
Speaker 1: of the fairway bunker. So I went from angles and
Speaker 1: planes and all this to now watching someone create, like
Speaker 1: a completely different experience, and realized that it was really
Speaker 1: about both. And then when we moved back to Toronto
Speaker 1: the next year, my dad got me a job fixing
Speaker 1: divots at the National Golf Club in Woodbridge, which is
Speaker 1: like probably the hardest, best golf course in Canada. And
Speaker 1: so Ben was the first Canadian to be a First
Speaker 1: Team All American in college in New Mexico State, was
Speaker 1: sponsored onto the PGA tour by Lee Trevino uh and
Speaker 1: then became a disciple and best friend of George Knudson
Speaker 1: and Nukeson is like the Hogan of Canada, right. The
Speaker 1: only difference is he had liked of a sling drawn.
Speaker 1: Hogan didn't draw it as much, but he didn't even
Speaker 1: cut it that much either. So, uh, I just was
Speaker 1: around these guys who had these jobs that looked fantastic.
Speaker 1: They looked a lot happier than the people who lived
Speaker 1: in my neighborhood. Um, you know, they were revered and respected.
Speaker 1: They got to spend the whole day to golf course
Speaker 1: work with all these great players. So really, from the
Speaker 1: time I'm like probably fourteen, until I go to college
Speaker 1: at nineteen, my you know, six months of my year
Speaker 1: is spent on arrange with tour players, either practicing or
Speaker 1: watching them practice. So it's like it's a species that
Speaker 1: I understand very very well. Um, and they were like
Speaker 1: gods to me, and so I kind of I saw
Speaker 1: what to do, what not to do, you know. I
Speaker 1: mean that was the first time as a key to
Speaker 1: seeing a guy playing his best golf change his equipment
Speaker 1: and then I'm playing like ship and go on, why
Speaker 1: did you do that? But um, you know, there's some
Speaker 1: really good books out there on self sabotage, but I'm
Speaker 1: not really academically at the point where I can explain
Speaker 1: it yet, but it's a real thing. Alan, Can I
Speaker 1: post a question to Jeff that will that I know
Speaker 1: Sean will be interested in as well. Jeff, when when
Speaker 1: you got on tour and there's a lot of swing
Speaker 1: coaches out there, how did you know who you might
Speaker 1: fit up, who you might match with in a in
Speaker 1: a good way and how did that process work for you? Wow?
Speaker 1: I mean I was fortunate, as Sean said, I mean
Speaker 1: I had Dale from fifteen or sixteen. Um, so I
Speaker 1: was never really looking. Um, I was a bit. I'm
Speaker 1: a bit like probably a lot of people showan coaches. Um,
Speaker 1: we're all quite stubborn, I think. And I knew all
Speaker 1: the answers, you know, so I kind of linch she
Speaker 1: was there to confirm my beliefs in my head at
Speaker 1: least did he know that? Oh yeah, Um, I think
Speaker 1: that's part of the job in that Sean. But there's
Speaker 1: a real dichotomy, right because technically I'm not talking about
Speaker 1: us a human being, but I'm talking about you as
Speaker 1: a businessman, um and not you. I don't know if
Speaker 1: you're the best example of this because of you and Lynch,
Speaker 1: He's like the longevity that you have together. But it's
Speaker 1: like a job where you have to be incredibly loyal, right,
Speaker 1: You almost got to put your players ahead of your
Speaker 1: family when you're trying to really make a name for yourself.
Speaker 1: But you're historically working with people are incredibly disloyal, So
Speaker 1: there's always going to be a dichotomy in in the thing.
Speaker 1: As soon as they think it's not something for them,
Speaker 1: then they're out and that and that's that's part of it.
Speaker 1: So I mean, I've watched a lot of coaches lose
Speaker 1: their mind out there because they just can't accept that
Speaker 1: it's a business and that it's not personal. Um and unfortunately,
Speaker 1: we spend a lot of time, well fortunately and unfortunately
Speaker 1: spend a lot of time around each other. So when
Speaker 1: it comes time to split up, it's always a bit,
Speaker 1: you know, it's all it's almost like a breakup in
Speaker 1: a normal relationship. But I know the players that I
Speaker 1: can't I've done a good job of I've helped a
Speaker 1: couple of guys I won't leave names without helped the
Speaker 1: couple of people build their stables and players on tour
Speaker 1: from players who called me um and I just didn't
Speaker 1: think that I would be the right fit for them.
Speaker 1: Because I think of the end of my career. I
Speaker 1: won't really look in the mirror and think about how
Speaker 1: many players I help, but I will think about how
Speaker 1: many I didn't hurt. And I've done it before one time,
Speaker 1: and it's a fucking it's an awful feeling. And you know,
Speaker 1: the thing, this is pretty complex. It's not rocket science,
Speaker 1: but it's definitely science. And I think today, with the
Speaker 1: information we have out there and the proof, no one
Speaker 1: should not know that anymore. And I mean you look
Speaker 1: in Florida at the top twenty teachers. Most of them
Speaker 1: are charging, you know, as much money as corporate lawyers
Speaker 1: are in Manhattan. And then you know, to be that
Speaker 1: corporate lawyer, you've got to do your undergrad then you've
Speaker 1: got to go to law school, and then you normally
Speaker 1: have to junior under someone. So by the time you're
Speaker 1: making money as a lawyer, your years into your education
Speaker 1: and a lot of coaches. You know, it's not so
Speaker 1: much today, but definitely back in the day where players
Speaker 1: who didn't make it but then just became coaches and um,
Speaker 1: just just so much opinion. Like when I go to
Speaker 1: a nutritionist, I don't want that nutritionist opinion on what
Speaker 1: I should do. I want if there's going to be
Speaker 1: an opinion at all, it's got to come from experience.
Speaker 1: And I think that you know, with today's day and age,
Speaker 1: Like my kids are what fourteen eleven, and they'll say
Speaker 1: to me like, yeah, man, that's facts, you know, And
Speaker 1: it's like I never had to say that as a
Speaker 1: kid because we just we just were under the idea
Speaker 1: that it was actually a fact. But there's so much
Speaker 1: a misinformation as far as politically, well, there's this much misinformation.
Speaker 1: So you know, Instagram and social media is like Gutenberg
Speaker 1: on steroids, right, I mean this is the printing press
Speaker 1: to the full extent. So um, there's a lot of
Speaker 1: good stuff, but then there's a lot of then there's
Speaker 1: a lot of garbage. And you know, it's just amazing
Speaker 1: to see the careers and success that people can have
Speaker 1: when they don't really understand one how humans community to
Speaker 1: just the processes of the brain. Three, the physics of
Speaker 1: the club, for the kinetics and physiology of the body.
Speaker 1: Five what the ball does in the air and based
Speaker 1: on wind and temperature. Like I work with guys now
Speaker 1: and I'll say, all right, so it's gonna be fifty
Speaker 1: two degrees when you play. Do you know how far
Speaker 1: these are? And they don't know that, And it's like
Speaker 1: that's so easily measured, and I just think that. Sure,
Speaker 1: there's guys like Jeff and Tiger or at the highest
Speaker 1: level they had the they picked up these subconscious nuances
Speaker 1: in certain things, but not everyone's gonna find that that way, right, Like,
Speaker 1: for example, if someone is if someone is low and
Speaker 1: angular acuity, which is a cognitive skill, then they either
Speaker 1: need a caddy who can read putts, or they need
Speaker 1: to learn aime point because they can't see shapes in space.
Speaker 1: So rather than him end up going through four sports
Speaker 1: psychologists thinking that it's mental he can't see shapes in space,
Speaker 1: let's start with that first. So those are all things
Speaker 1: alan that I never thought I was ever going to
Speaker 1: learn in my life. But it's tricky because look, when
Speaker 1: people are playing well, when Justin Rose gets the number one,
Speaker 1: when Tiger Woods wasn't playing good, it didn't matter when
Speaker 1: Tiger started playing better as he should have because he's
Speaker 1: just tirer it, although it would matter who was next
Speaker 1: to him. Then all of a sudden, my inbox and
Speaker 1: emails are blowing up. Rosie gets the number one. I said, no,
Speaker 1: like ten people in the next month, Rosie fires me.
Speaker 1: It's crickets. So I understood a long time ago that
Speaker 1: I understood a long time ago that I'm only as
Speaker 1: good as my players are. Whether that's a true whether
Speaker 1: that is a true indication of my skill and my understanding,
Speaker 1: it doesn't really matter. That's just the name of the game.
Speaker 1: So people play well, you have the potentially get busier.
Speaker 1: People don't play well. It's just it just kind of
Speaker 1: goes like this, and that's what it is. And I
Speaker 1: think that that as much as I love it and
Speaker 1: and love doing it, um, you know, kind of the
Speaker 1: boring part of love is acceptance. And I have to
Speaker 1: constantly remind myself, um that I'm here to keep the
Speaker 1: main thing about the main thing, coach the player. I
Speaker 1: think I know in my head what's better for the
Speaker 1: player as far as his treatment of people, how he
Speaker 1: could eat, how he can sleep and be office phone earlier.
Speaker 1: But you know, I got a coachoose in front of
Speaker 1: me without judgment and without prejudice, and it's, uh, it's
Speaker 1: so challenging. I just I love it. It's impossible as
Speaker 1: you surely know you know. Link Soul is a clothing
Speaker 1: and a lifestyle brand. I've been wearing it for at
Speaker 1: least a decade. It's cool stuff, it's super comfy, and
Speaker 1: one of the fire Pit loves it. We're believers. If
Speaker 1: you go to links al dot com and use the
Speaker 1: promo code fire Pit five, you will get off your purchase.
Speaker 1: You're welcome, and we're also giving away a two links
Speaker 1: old gift card per episode. So go to the fire
Speaker 1: Pit YouTube channel and leave a comment from this episode
Speaker 1: and say how much you loved it, because surely you're
Speaker 1: loving it. You're a golf fan. You have to be
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Speaker 1: our Instagram and our Twitter feeds. So get involved. We're
Speaker 1: trying to have some fun. We also have to pay
Speaker 1: the bills here at the fire Pit Collective. So back
Speaker 1: to Ned a fourth. I mean, you're obviously a very
Speaker 1: progressive guy, Sean Um, and you've lived it. We all
Speaker 1: know golf has a very conservative streak. Um in the
Speaker 1: age of Trump and now the Saudi Encroach admitted Um,
Speaker 1: it's been harder to ignore some of the political overtones
Speaker 1: to what's happening how do you make peace with with
Speaker 1: your workplace which a lot of your your colleagues and
Speaker 1: a lot of probably the players you work with are
Speaker 1: coming from a very different perspective and life experience. Yeah. Well,
Speaker 1: I think it's like if you look at understanding, say
Speaker 1: it's an equation, right, So knowledge plus wisdom equals understanding.
Speaker 1: So I think if everyone had had my experience that
Speaker 1: would probably see things so that that reminds me of that,
Speaker 1: like to point fingers and say you're you're wrong, and
Speaker 1: you're wrong, and you're wrong. That's not doing anything to
Speaker 1: bring us closer to one another. Right. So it's like,
Speaker 1: for example, the drive to survive about the Formula one, Right,
Speaker 1: I've never seen a Formula one race in my life,
Speaker 1: didn't even care to my wife and I watched that
Speaker 1: on Netflix, and now I have like my favorite drivers
Speaker 1: and I watch every race that I record. So as
Speaker 1: soon as I finally understood what the thing was, all
Speaker 1: of a sudden, I was interested in it. So I
Speaker 1: think that there's not a Palestinian kid, there's not a
Speaker 1: Palestinian kid in the West Bank who got to his
Speaker 1: own natural place about Israelis and vice versus. That ship
Speaker 1: is all taught. It's all taught. There's no three year
Speaker 1: old in the world. Three year old in the world
Speaker 1: might not want to share his toy with you. That's
Speaker 1: because it's in its primate brain and it's not going
Speaker 1: to do that. But at the end of the day,
Speaker 1: they're not gonna have any issue with like hatred is taught.
Speaker 1: Like it's completely taught. So just reminding myself that, um,
Speaker 1: I think it was Manvela when they asked him a
Speaker 1: question like this, but on a way a Huger level. Um,
Speaker 1: he said, it helped him to remind himself that everyone
Speaker 1: was doing their best from their own level of understanding.
Speaker 1: So my job ultimately is to try to find a
Speaker 1: way to say, hey, you know what, what you have
Speaker 1: to say is not accurate. But telling someone your opinions
Speaker 1: don't matter versus my facts. I mean, they did a
Speaker 1: study I don't remember what the school was, but they
Speaker 1: did a study on conspiracy, on conspiracy theories, and they
Speaker 1: basically said, if you want to help change someone's idea
Speaker 1: on something, you almost have to interview them. And so
Speaker 1: if if if you believe something, Alan and I start
Speaker 1: screaming at you and saying that's bullshit, that's ridiculous when
Speaker 1: they have a functional amuri on the region where the
Speaker 1: thought would be held actually fires at a higher impulse.
Speaker 1: So all I'm doing by challenging you in the wrong
Speaker 1: way is I'm just increased senior belief system. Okay, So
Speaker 1: I think it's I think it's about that. So look,
Speaker 1: if I was I grew up in Toronto. My dad's Scottish,
Speaker 1: my mom is Guyanese. I went from Toronto to Delaware,
Speaker 1: to San fran to l A to Toronto to Vancouver,
Speaker 1: back to Toronto to Nashville. And in that time we
Speaker 1: went all over the world. And you know what did
Speaker 1: Mark Twain say? Right? Travel is the venom to bigotry.
Speaker 1: So I don't know how I could have ended up
Speaker 1: with my parents, one what they taught me, and then
Speaker 1: to the experience and the environments I observed. I don't
Speaker 1: think I could have ever been like that, even though
Speaker 1: I think it feels wrong. Like a guy in the
Speaker 1: neighborhood was talking about this the other day and and
Speaker 1: he said, you know, people still complain about this and that,
Speaker 1: but slavery was four hundred years ago. Um, slavery was
Speaker 1: what four hundred years ago? And any the comment that
Speaker 1: he made was that's just what people thought then, and
Speaker 1: I corrected him and said, no, there was actually abolitionists
Speaker 1: back then to who thought it was really in unique. So,
Speaker 1: but it's not just an American thing. It's an England thing,
Speaker 1: it's a France thing, it's in Egypt thing. It's every
Speaker 1: single empire built its structure off the back of obviously slaves.
Speaker 1: So it's not just that. But I just think America
Speaker 1: is such an unbelievable country, uh, in such a fantastic
Speaker 1: place that we should challenge ourselves to do better. But
Speaker 1: you know, you get back into just early understanding of
Speaker 1: the brain. The brain's goal is to survive. It isn't
Speaker 1: necessarily to thrive. That's the new brain. The old brain
Speaker 1: is more powerful. So people I want to be accepted
Speaker 1: by a tribe. So once again we're seeing it with
Speaker 1: Trump right now, he's kind of on his way out.
Speaker 1: Guys are starting to go, God, I can't believe he
Speaker 1: hung out with Kanye West and that other guy. But
Speaker 1: at one point there was fine people on both sides,
Speaker 1: and and and but while it was working for the
Speaker 1: system and the machine, they're like, keep him talking. Now
Speaker 1: it looks like, oh, ship, he's definitely gonna lose, and
Speaker 1: so now they're just pushing him out and they're coming
Speaker 1: a little bit back more to moderate where these crazy
Speaker 1: things that these human beings were being were saying like
Speaker 1: crazy stuff, And I don't mean like differing from my opinion.
Speaker 1: I'm just saying crazy things that actually have no factual
Speaker 1: relevance whatsoever. Uh. Now where they're coming a little bit
Speaker 1: back from Psycho And hopefully that's the case, because it's like,
Speaker 1: none of those guys say anything they believe, They don't
Speaker 1: believe that. They just know that that's going to get
Speaker 1: them votes. Because there's a bunch of people out there
Speaker 1: who didn't really shift with the paradigm. And so, yeah,
Speaker 1: the jobs their grandfather had was helping them raise a
Speaker 1: family and put their parents through college. But those jobs
Speaker 1: don't exist anymore. And that's not because of minorities, that's
Speaker 1: not because of immigrants, it's not because of any of
Speaker 1: that's because of globalization. So it's I tried to just
Speaker 1: educate people as I can, but just have love for everybody,
Speaker 1: because everyone is just kind of a product of their environment,
Speaker 1: a product of the books they've read, in a product
Speaker 1: of their experiences. So I don't think anyone wants to
Speaker 1: feel like that. It doesn't feel good to have animosity
Speaker 1: towards someone else. I don't even think it's really that natural. So,
Speaker 1: you know, just trying to you know, you gotta put
Speaker 1: your arm around people and and and try and try
Speaker 1: and help them to see it. But I just have
Speaker 1: to be an example of of of what it is
Speaker 1: that I believe, and that's enough. I'm not overly concerned
Speaker 1: about what other people are thinking about because I mean,
Speaker 1: I used to watch Peter Jennings as a kid with
Speaker 1: my dad, and Peter Jennings was reporting the news, and
Speaker 1: now Anderson Cooper and Tucker Carlson are creating the news.
Speaker 1: And it's like, if any if I want to listen
Speaker 1: to anyone create the news, it's gonna be someone like
Speaker 1: Thomas Friedman. It's not gonna be not gonna be these guys.
Speaker 1: These guys aren't impressive, um whatsoever. So I'm stuck in
Speaker 1: the middle where I'm into the truth. So if someone says,
Speaker 1: you know, on the right, say this, and I'm like, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's true, I'm for that. If someone on the left
Speaker 1: says something that's true, then I'm for that. Then I'm
Speaker 1: looking for the truth. I'm not really looking to be
Speaker 1: a part of a team or a part of a side.
Speaker 1: But we need to understand, like so much of our
Speaker 1: brain compliments that and being accepted due to survival, because
Speaker 1: if we were kicked out of the tribe a long
Speaker 1: time ago, we're probably going to go extinct. That part
Speaker 1: of our brain is still incredibly powerful. I'm sure we
Speaker 1: have you know, we have phones, we have technological advancements,
Speaker 1: but emotionally we're not any further ahead in the were
Speaker 1: in the cave And I think that's pretty obvious if
Speaker 1: you look at Ukraine, you just look at everything. It's
Speaker 1: we haven't really evolved um our, emotional intelligence whatsoever. But
Speaker 1: did they have podcasts back in the caveman days? I
Speaker 1: think not. We've come, We've made a few strides. Yeah,
Speaker 1: well this is given mason ability, so the sure this
Speaker 1: with someone And then there's a podcast probably happening in
Speaker 1: my neighborhood right now, and everyone's part to que eight
Speaker 1: on and uh yeah and that's podcast too. Good point
Speaker 1: may note the extreme beauty oh just disappeared? Did you
Speaker 1: all note the Jeff can't see it but behind him
Speaker 1: above his guitar. Jeff, is it possible that there would
Speaker 1: be a palm tree that would create shade that would
Speaker 1: be on the on the back wall of your right
Speaker 1: over your guitar a little while ago that is a blonde. Uh,
Speaker 1: there would be. It's not a palm trade. We don't
Speaker 1: have palm trees in Australia, not indigenous to Australia. It's
Speaker 1: some sort of eucalyptus, I think blowing around in the wind.
Speaker 1: It's very windy and Melbourne at the moment very neat.
Speaker 1: Well that's good because you need to dry out those
Speaker 1: golf courses, don't you. But this is actually this chat's
Speaker 1: very like when you make Sewan in the locker room ontour.
Speaker 1: This is where you end up when you're having your
Speaker 1: coffee in the morning. You stopped talking about, Hey, hitting it, Jeff.
Speaker 1: This is where we end This is where we end up. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you're hitting the Jeff. No, no no, no, we end up
Speaker 1: with we end up in a direction like that. But yeah,
Speaker 1: it's always fascinating. The best part I think if we
Speaker 1: get back to golf a little bit, there's swing teachers
Speaker 1: and there's coaches, and I think in the last thirty
Speaker 1: minutes we've worked out that Shawn is a coach. Um,
Speaker 1: he fell he fell in love with the golf swing
Speaker 1: and like obsesses about the golf swing, but he's more
Speaker 1: about making people better golfers and better people. Um. And
Speaker 1: I think that the elite coaches that get to the
Speaker 1: top the ones you see wandering around the range on tour,
Speaker 1: other coaches, not the swing teachers. There. Swing teachers in
Speaker 1: Instagram is for the swing teachers. Like you mentioned, there's
Speaker 1: not a lot of coaches, you know. Um And yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean I think not to undermine all the swing talk.
Speaker 1: I think swing talk is amazing, but I feel like
Speaker 1: if I swinger like Cameron Champ want one about twenty majors,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, there's so much more to
Speaker 1: it than how you hit the ball and how easy
Speaker 1: it is for you to hit the ball. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's it's about playing the game and understand like Sean
Speaker 1: said about how far the ball goes when it's fifty
Speaker 1: two degrees. I don't know how far it goes when
Speaker 1: it's fifty two degrees, but I know when I'm standing
Speaker 1: there and I feel it, my which is going to
Speaker 1: go today is not going to go one thirty five
Speaker 1: because it's a bit cooler this morning. You know, these
Speaker 1: are just and there's an infinite number of those things
Speaker 1: in golf, um that just come along as you play
Speaker 1: and experience if your eyes are open. And I think
Speaker 1: Shawn's one of those coaches who gets his player's eyes
Speaker 1: open to all those little things and how they learned
Speaker 1: to become better players. They might move the club better
Speaker 1: and Brandon a little that will break it down on
Speaker 1: the golf channel and say, well, he's shallowing his path
Speaker 1: a bit more. Jes it doesn't. He used the ground
Speaker 1: well and he's sitting the ball better now that he's
Speaker 1: working for shore. But that's probably not why he's really
Speaker 1: scoring better. He's scoring better because he's viewing golf in
Speaker 1: a more sort of holistic way. And um, well that's
Speaker 1: the one thing like you and I will know because
Speaker 1: we know a lot of the people in the game,
Speaker 1: and you know you will listen to commentators or the
Speaker 1: guys after and I know they're just doing their job.
Speaker 1: That's what their job is. Um is Like a guy
Speaker 1: will be struggling and they'll be ripping a swing, but
Speaker 1: you and I both know that his dad's just been
Speaker 1: diagnosed with leukemia, or this guy's going through a divorce
Speaker 1: or or or or and so that's just that's just
Speaker 1: the human element. I mean, I get. The thing is
Speaker 1: the last few years from Danny Willett to lydia Co
Speaker 1: kind of started with Tiger Uh, Michael Kim, who's back
Speaker 1: on tour now, Like these were people were all numbered,
Speaker 1: Like Michael Kim was number one ranked amateur in the
Speaker 1: world and made fifteen of his last tour cuts. So
Speaker 1: because I've been at it for a long time, and
Speaker 1: then what I've been learning about the brain for the
Speaker 1: last two years, I've a study everything I can on it.
Speaker 1: It's really like most of it I can't even understand
Speaker 1: the words. But Michael Kim was the number one amateur
Speaker 1: in the world, and he was kind of flatt in
Speaker 1: his back swing, swung out to the right, flipped it.
Speaker 1: The word flipped. He flipped it and hit more fairways
Speaker 1: and more greens than anyone in college. Then got on
Speaker 1: tour and was convinced like to be a great player,
Speaker 1: he needed to be able to hit a faith and
Speaker 1: that was pretty much game over right there. Um, And
Speaker 1: I think someone like a DJ who came out with
Speaker 1: a sizeable push draw, like really swung it. He took
Speaker 1: around fifteen years to become like a good fader of
Speaker 1: the golf ball, and he took his time with it
Speaker 1: and took his time with it, and took his time
Speaker 1: with it. Um Tiger. When we worked, we had a
Speaker 1: little bit of a faith in Some days he would
Speaker 1: wake up and he just couldn't fade it, so he
Speaker 1: would play with what he had and come back and
Speaker 1: work on it after where so many guys are still
Speaker 1: trying to fix it on the first five holes. Then
Speaker 1: they're three over through five and then they go, oh
Speaker 1: ship and they panic and then they just get back
Speaker 1: in the survivor mode and shoot like even par I mean,
Speaker 1: you're in survivor mode off the first teeth. So it's
Speaker 1: I think that's the tricky part. Is like when I
Speaker 1: saw Hunter Mayhan for the first time, I've never seen
Speaker 1: anybody get as opened up as he was in right
Speaker 1: side ben to the ground so much. But then I
Speaker 1: watched him hit it and I was like, wow, that's incredible.
Speaker 1: I mean, Jeff, remember those years where that guy didn't miss.
Speaker 1: He was the most incredible driver of a golf ball
Speaker 1: I've ever seen. Now what we know is is for
Speaker 1: his wedge play, and when he was in the rough
Speaker 1: that didn't really work as well. So when he got
Speaker 1: in the rough, we didn't like change his whole swing
Speaker 1: to make him better in the rough. We'd get closer
Speaker 1: to it, we'd cut it and take it more upright,
Speaker 1: like a bunker shot, and chopped down on it. And
Speaker 1: I think that that, you know, that's kind of what
Speaker 1: happens to players. They think, well, man, you know, John
Speaker 1: Rom fades it more a Cow fades it, but I
Speaker 1: draw it, and you know we need to do that. Well,
Speaker 1: we're not sure if John Rom or calling more Cow
Speaker 1: will end up with as many tour wins or majors
Speaker 1: as Zach Johnson. We don't know that at right. So
Speaker 1: the Hall of Fame is full of guys who no
Speaker 1: one would have emulated. But when they came into impact,
Speaker 1: they weren't doing incredibly different things. Their glutes weren't doing
Speaker 1: incredibly different things, their tricep wasn't doing incredibly different things.
Speaker 1: No one had the club in front of them. The
Speaker 1: club always looked behind them. So it's I think when
Speaker 1: you have like, the golf swing is quite easy for me.
Speaker 1: It's just the golfer that's really difficult, and I don't
Speaker 1: know how to say it better than that. I find
Speaker 1: the swing is give me ten minutes with anyone who
Speaker 1: comes to see me, and they will say wow within
Speaker 1: ten minutes, because it's quite I've been at it forever,
Speaker 1: and I've been around a lot of smart people, and
Speaker 1: I made a lot of I sucked up a million times,
Speaker 1: and so all those kind of cardinal sins that I've created,
Speaker 1: they're kind of gone. I'm still gonna make mistakes, but
Speaker 1: most of that just become when I'm lazy and I
Speaker 1: don't want to be there. So and and players get
Speaker 1: like that too. I mean, people can't imagine, but guys
Speaker 1: are on their fourth week in a row. Just trying
Speaker 1: to keep them like connected to the thing is really
Speaker 1: important because they're done. The last thing they want to
Speaker 1: do is see another golf ball. And my buddies that
Speaker 1: I play men's game with could never understand how you're
Speaker 1: fortunate enough to have a career like being on the
Speaker 1: PGA Tour and you wouldn't want to play. But that's
Speaker 1: because they don't get it yet. They would if they
Speaker 1: played four weeks in a row on three different continents. Meanwhile,
Speaker 1: their kids are at home growing up, they're not they're
Speaker 1: the kids are pissing off their mom. The mom is
Speaker 1: now upset it dad, And then you've got to go
Speaker 1: and try to be a psyche like a sociopath and
Speaker 1: push Some can do it, most can. And so to me,
Speaker 1: I think when you see a guy doing really, really well,
Speaker 1: then you look at all the things around them. There's
Speaker 1: this beautiful kind of coherence where everything fits into place.
Speaker 1: And unfortunately, because we don't have any control of anything
Speaker 1: outside of ourselves, and I'm not even sure how much
Speaker 1: we can control that, to be honest with you, Um,
Speaker 1: you know, there's a lot of moving parts to success,
Speaker 1: and many of them we have no real control off.
Speaker 1: So it's kind of this this kind of like this
Speaker 1: beautiful symphony of working smart and trusting the people you're
Speaker 1: around with and just punching the clock and then clocking
Speaker 1: out and then just waiting and then just waiting. Right. Um,
Speaker 1: like Jeff is a US Open champion, he is up
Speaker 1: and Dale was absolutely sick but also one of the
Speaker 1: best mid iron players of his generation. Had the absolutely
Speaker 1: fat a seven iron from the middle of the fairway,
Speaker 1: which he doesn't really do. So there's so many things
Speaker 1: that go that go into that. Like unless you win
Speaker 1: by a seven, as you're one putting someone else's three putting.
Speaker 1: As as you hit it you know, too hard with
Speaker 1: a chip and it hits the pin and stops. Someone
Speaker 1: else has hit a better chip and it's left out.
Speaker 1: There's so many things happening, Like when you look at
Speaker 1: shot Tracker with the final three groups, it's fascinating, like
Speaker 1: how much things are moving and changing and moving and changing.
Speaker 1: So unless you're tired woods and you're winning by seven
Speaker 1: or eight, Um, if you're winning by one, then there's
Speaker 1: a lot of things you're went that that went your way.
Speaker 1: And if you're losing by one, there's a lot of
Speaker 1: things that went your way as well. But I think
Speaker 1: at that top level, no one is just that much
Speaker 1: better than anybody else. Um. I mean how many, how
Speaker 1: many great golf shots that have ruined guy's careers just
Speaker 1: came down to the fact that they hit at a
Speaker 1: second when the win was seventeen, and when the ball
Speaker 1: was in the middle of his arc, it gusted from
Speaker 1: seventeen to twenty three, plugged in the front lip and
Speaker 1: they may double and lost the tournament, and then sat
Speaker 1: there and thought about how did I lose it? And
Speaker 1: then the caddie goes, hey, I think this is what
Speaker 1: I'm seeing. The coach goes, this is what I'm seeing.
Speaker 1: The next sports sight says, wow, you know he was
Speaker 1: bullied as a kid, and that's kind of interesting that
Speaker 1: trauma is really difficult with that. And then next thing,
Speaker 1: the next thing, you know, the player, the player can't
Speaker 1: remember what they thought in the first place. And so
Speaker 1: I'm I'm like, very very incredibly careful of that, and
Speaker 1: I want to know you don't. You don't teach Jeff
Speaker 1: Ogilvie or Justin rose Um. You just don't teach them.
Speaker 1: You teach my mom. She's a twenty handicap. She doesn't
Speaker 1: know how to do certain things. I think you coached them.
Speaker 1: And I think it's really difficult for people to see themselves.
Speaker 1: Like I was with Ben on this morning, and I
Speaker 1: just made the joke to Ben, like, if I had
Speaker 1: to talk about your alignment and your club face every
Speaker 1: single day, every time I had to mention it, if
Speaker 1: I charge you a thousand dollars, I'd have two grand
Speaker 1: before the season starts. And he goes, yeah, and if
Speaker 1: I got tired of paying you you'd have another two
Speaker 1: under grand because I've went four million, Like like he
Speaker 1: admitted it. He's like, well, you're here, why would I
Speaker 1: think so? It's you just have to know. Like other
Speaker 1: coaches would be like, dude, why do they get like this?
Speaker 1: And I'm like, I stopped trying to answer that, like
Speaker 1: within the first two months I was on tour and
Speaker 1: just accepted it and then just did my job and
Speaker 1: just dealt with it. Like you know, it's like someone
Speaker 1: it would be like a lieutenant in the trenchers of
Speaker 1: World War Two? But why are they shooting at us?
Speaker 1: It's like, it doesn't matter why they are shooting at us.
Speaker 1: What is your best Tiger Woods story? I have some
Speaker 1: really good ones, like and some of them are about
Speaker 1: kind of him as a person, like how everyone's kind
Speaker 1: of come to see him now. I saw him quite
Speaker 1: often like that. It's just he had to put up
Speaker 1: an incredible an incredible wall, I mean, just a survival
Speaker 1: mechanism to block everything out, including almost empathy. Sometimes um hm.
Speaker 1: I think it's a real thing, like especially when you're
Speaker 1: a goat, like whether you're a Prince or Michael Jackson
Speaker 1: or Tiger Michael Jordan's or I mean, you know when
Speaker 1: your yachts called privacy, Like when you've got to spend
Speaker 1: a hunter million of privacy, that's pretty difficult. That's pretty tripping, right.
Speaker 1: So I remember Bo Vampelt one time. I love Bo
Speaker 1: Vampelt by the way, me and me and Bow where
Speaker 1: he used to such a laser show. And then Mark
Speaker 1: Cheney was his caddy, and I love Mark Cheney as well,
Speaker 1: and uh, we're on the range and uh, and I
Speaker 1: said to a tiger, you're gonna go sign those kids
Speaker 1: hats and he goes, now, I'm good, I go just
Speaker 1: go sign our hats. But no big deal, right, And
Speaker 1: he goes to walk over to sign the hats, and
Speaker 1: you know, like the the heavy green fences, all of
Speaker 1: a sudden everyone pushes. Next thing, I know, there's adults
Speaker 1: on top of kids, and um, tiger looks back at
Speaker 1: me almost as like told you, and Bob Pelt goes,
Speaker 1: you know what I love? So what's that? He said?
Speaker 1: I love being able to make about three point five
Speaker 1: million dollars a year and not even getting recognized in
Speaker 1: my own airport. And so that that's a tremendous sacrifice
Speaker 1: that they pay. And I think, you know, how many
Speaker 1: people have we seen get to number one and then
Speaker 1: drop off quite quickly after that because you have to
Speaker 1: be into that whole thing in order to be able
Speaker 1: to deal with that, and so I don't think a
Speaker 1: lot of people I want to do that. So next
Speaker 1: thing they know, they self sabotage and all of that
Speaker 1: kind of unwanted stuff and stress goes away because the
Speaker 1: survivor is protecting the thriver from its own issue. So
Speaker 1: it's it's like this is occurring, but my best Timer
Speaker 1: story ever because he's he's quite humble, he doesn't really
Speaker 1: brag on himself or anything like that. And we're at
Speaker 1: Acuring in two thousand thirteen and he's already kicked me
Speaker 1: off the range. When he got back to number one,
Speaker 1: he said, I want you on the range after the
Speaker 1: round and Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, but never in my warm up,
Speaker 1: and I just said, yeah, fine, bro, don't He's like,
Speaker 1: don't see him personally. I'm like, no, no, I don't,
Speaker 1: I don't, um no, no, no worries right, like you're good.
Speaker 1: And so I used to sit with that Rosie and
Speaker 1: Hunter and O'Hare. I would sit and wait for them
Speaker 1: or be on the range with him while he was
Speaker 1: warming up. So at at Firestone, like Jeff knows, there's
Speaker 1: that wall that separates the putting green from the driving range.
Speaker 1: So I would just sit on the wall watch him
Speaker 1: warm up, and uh, he's warming up this day. And
Speaker 1: two days before that, I showed him a video goes
Speaker 1: do you like that? And I'm like, I mean, yeah,
Speaker 1: I like how you're hitting it, and you just won
Speaker 1: four out of your last six tournaments, so yeah, I
Speaker 1: like it, um, but I'd like it a little more
Speaker 1: lined up if you're asking. He goes, well, that's all
Speaker 1: right because it feels amazing, and I was like, gosh
Speaker 1: it, it it just got me right like he got. And
Speaker 1: so I'm sitting on the wall and I'm watching this
Speaker 1: warm up and it's it's like the next level warm up.
Speaker 1: But remember I've been seeing a Hunter and Justin Rose
Speaker 1: and Shawn O'Hare, who are no spring chickens when it
Speaker 1: comes to warm ups, and so I really know what
Speaker 1: like a high level is. But his is a bit
Speaker 1: different because I can see where he's aiming, and he's
Speaker 1: hitting draws and fades that are all starting equally right
Speaker 1: and left and landing in the same place and then
Speaker 1: he hits a couple of long iron just straight up
Speaker 1: in the air, like a Jeff Ogilvie three iron, and
Speaker 1: then um, he hits these couple of Stinger three woods
Speaker 1: and then does whatever he wants with the driver, and
Speaker 1: he walks up to me and says, you are you're gonna?
Speaker 1: Are you gonna stick around and watch? And Friday afternoon
Speaker 1: I leave to come home to be with my family.
Speaker 1: And I said, dude, this Friday, what do you think
Speaker 1: I'm gonna do. I'm gonna go to the airport. And
Speaker 1: he waked at me and said, I think you should
Speaker 1: stick around. And you never said anything like that ever,
Speaker 1: and so I'm like, all right, that was weird. So whatever,
Speaker 1: I get in my car, went to the house in Akron,
Speaker 1: got my stuff, went to the airport. And you know
Speaker 1: it's traditional for a Canadian on Friday at two thirty
Speaker 1: to open his first beer. So that's what happened. And
Speaker 1: I'm sitting in that little bar there in in in Akron, Canton,
Speaker 1: and the guy puts the golf on and I go
Speaker 1: like this, and I look and Tiger's nine under threw
Speaker 1: turn and so he knew teeing off that he was
Speaker 1: going to be an absolute It was gonna be an
Speaker 1: absolute clinic, and then you mean to stick around and
Speaker 1: watch it. But being five ft six, I couldn't see
Speaker 1: a single shot. Anyways, if you're gonna coach Tiger, you've
Speaker 1: got to be about seven. Uh. Chris Koma had the
Speaker 1: same problem. He's like, how do you see I go?
Speaker 1: You don't, you can't, but they show every shot on television,
Speaker 1: so just go video. I'd be in the locker room filming,
Speaker 1: filming the screen. And it's funny because I've yet to
Speaker 1: take a video one of my players in contention on
Speaker 1: my phone that looks like the swing they had just
Speaker 1: leaving to go to the golf course. There's already there's
Speaker 1: always the slightly different little nuances to it. But that
Speaker 1: that's probably for me, is like my coolest Tiger stories.
Speaker 1: Just not many people can say, Hey, today, I'm gonna
Speaker 1: shoot fifty nine. Um. I think most of the time
Speaker 1: when guys do, they're thinking of withdrawing because they're hitting
Speaker 1: it so ship on the range, so they kind of quit.
Speaker 1: Called their agent on the way the tea and says
Speaker 1: they're a net Jets flat flight. You know tonight, next thing,
Speaker 1: you know, they're ten under their eleven. That's our guests
Speaker 1: is unique sense of abilities. I know we don't have
Speaker 1: that much time, but can we try a lightning round?
Speaker 1: There's there's no rules. There's no rules here in need
Speaker 1: a fourth. This is a nutty question, and I've wanted
Speaker 1: to ask you this for a long time. If there
Speaker 1: had never been rule changes, Tiger is just old enough
Speaker 1: that he started with wooden woods and a lot of
Speaker 1: balls and steel chefs. Let's say the rules never changed
Speaker 1: and that was the equipment he would have played and
Speaker 1: everybody else would have played too. How many queer majors
Speaker 1: to date and um and how many wins? Mm hmm yeah.
Speaker 1: I think also if you add if he never ever
Speaker 1: got coached, you have to add, right, um, your your
Speaker 1: your your game, you many rules you like. Well, I'm
Speaker 1: adding one more thing. I think if we had Strokes
Speaker 1: gained off the team now one, he would have realized
Speaker 1: that it wasn't helpful at all to hit more fairways
Speaker 1: as far as he hit it. So I'm just saying that.
Speaker 1: So I think we could be in the maybe the
Speaker 1: mid thirties for majors. Oh so yeah, yeah, go ahead, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: for majors I think the technology it didn't help. It
Speaker 1: didn't help him. It helped other players get slightly better,
Speaker 1: which still wasn't good enough to get to him. But
Speaker 1: he always played with a lot of curve, and as
Speaker 1: soon as the ball started changing, he couldn't be as
Speaker 1: creative as he used to be. So, um, yeah I would.
Speaker 1: I would probably say like mid and probably mid thirties.
Speaker 1: He would have had way less injuries. Um, why is that? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I would say mid thirties. Why would he have fewer injuries?
Speaker 1: Just wouldn't been swinging his harden. No, not really. He
Speaker 1: used to swing faster when he was a hundred forty
Speaker 1: pounds and when he was two hunder pounds. I mean
Speaker 1: Jeff saw it early on. He remembers what it was like.
Speaker 1: I mean, he was obviously strong and athletic and fast,
Speaker 1: but I mean you watched nineties seven Masters, like I
Speaker 1: know that he's weren't as far back as they are now.
Speaker 1: But longer players were hitting six iron into eleven. He
Speaker 1: was flipping h wedge onto that onto that green. Oh
Speaker 1: oh yeah I didn't. Yeah, I've seen last year Cameron
Speaker 1: Champ hit a gap wedge into two. Uh, we're not
Speaker 1: very good at hitting it high. But when he tries
Speaker 1: to did did you see ogil be there to get
Speaker 1: over the hill? We hit it over the back and
Speaker 1: barely made five, just saying okay, so look, when you're
Speaker 1: able to hit it that far, you're not the best
Speaker 1: at hitting the stricker wedge for the record, Okay, Like
Speaker 1: you seen, Bolt would not would take a long time
Speaker 1: to be a good eight hundred runner, because he would
Speaker 1: come in and say, coach, how was that? I would
Speaker 1: be like, dude, the first hundred was too fast? Really,
Speaker 1: I just felt like I wasn't even trying. It's just
Speaker 1: because he's fast. That's what he is, right, So it's
Speaker 1: a leopard doesn't have stripes, right, So it takes a
Speaker 1: lot of work to get, you know, to get better
Speaker 1: at that. But I think Tiger would have been easily
Speaker 1: in the in the thirties. I mean the amount of
Speaker 1: time that he took to change his swing. Um, that
Speaker 1: took a lot of time off his ability to play well. No, Alan,
Speaker 1: please part of me, but Johnny, I just will up there.
Speaker 1: Does it ever come up in his conversation? Does he
Speaker 1: ever say, Man, if they had never changed the equipment,
Speaker 1: look what I could have done. I know he's humble
Speaker 1: by nature, but does it ever come up? He just
Speaker 1: he will never bitch or complain ever. I've never heard
Speaker 1: him talk about slow play. I've never heard him anything
Speaker 1: like that. And I let everyone I know who bitch
Speaker 1: about every bad club their caddy picks, which is blows
Speaker 1: my mind that you're a world class player and you
Speaker 1: think it's seven and he thinks it's six, and you
Speaker 1: go with him, like, how could anyone know more than
Speaker 1: you that it's a seven iron? Okay? And so then
Speaker 1: people on tour will say, well, fall on the sword
Speaker 1: because you don't want him to lose his confidence, and
Speaker 1: it's like no, but he's competently making mistake is five
Speaker 1: times around, so he's confidently still making bodies who gets
Speaker 1: So I'm I'm I'm kind of Hunter said it the best, Hunter,
Speaker 1: said Sean. His coaching is he gives you the best
Speaker 1: hug you've ever got, or kicks you in the balls
Speaker 1: harder you've ever been kicked. Because look, I'm out there too.
Speaker 1: I'm out there to make a living, and so I
Speaker 1: make a percentage of what they earn. And so when
Speaker 1: I see them have two bad putting weeks and change
Speaker 1: the putty they've been using for two years. They're going
Speaker 1: to get murdered on that one, because I've seen that before.
Speaker 1: So when I've never heard Tiger ever yelled a caddy,
Speaker 1: I've never heard him ever complain about anything. Nothing. And
Speaker 1: then he is literally the goat because he took more
Speaker 1: ownership and responsibility than anyone who's ever played. And then
Speaker 1: Jack Nicholas is a very close second because I kind
Speaker 1: of interviewed Jack over launching memorial and he was the
Speaker 1: one who brought up the idea when I was like,
Speaker 1: what did you want from a caddy? Because a lot
Speaker 1: of times I'm the conduit in between the player and
Speaker 1: the caddy. I gotta talk to both of them after
Speaker 1: the round. It's amazing. Sometimes it's like, were you guys
Speaker 1: even together today? Right? And and that just goes to
Speaker 1: show you, right, Like if you're in a good mood
Speaker 1: and they say your flight's delayed, you're like, all right,
Speaker 1: what's my options? If you're in a bad mood and
Speaker 1: they tell you that they've had to move your seat
Speaker 1: because someone else had a higher upgrade, you lose your
Speaker 1: ship and you know what I mean. So it's you've
Speaker 1: got to know that everyone is seeing things through the
Speaker 1: lens of where they're at at that moment. So if
Speaker 1: someone's in a good mood, then yeah, today it was good,
Speaker 1: felt really good about it, and the caddies sitting there
Speaker 1: going so it's it's really quite fascinating. Those calls are fascinating.
Speaker 1: Very rarely are they ever on the same page because
Speaker 1: we just no one's ever in the same state of
Speaker 1: mind at the same time. It just constantly keeps keep swelling. Um.
Speaker 1: But yeah, the the amount of creativity that he had
Speaker 1: and how he shaped the ball, you know, I say,
Speaker 1: like it's not a lost art now people being able
Speaker 1: to hit shots into a right pin. Technology is making
Speaker 1: it really difficult to get the ball into a right
Speaker 1: pin by holding it against the wind or fading it
Speaker 1: up to hold against the wind. Whereas tourable lot as
Speaker 1: in the early titless professional you can still curve it
Speaker 1: a lot more So. You caught Tiger at a very
Speaker 1: unusual time when you guys started working together. I mean
Speaker 1: it was it was just coming after the you know,
Speaker 1: the scandal, and he had he was playing the greatest
Speaker 1: golf that's ever been played, and all of a sudden
Speaker 1: his life was turned upside down and you've you know,
Speaker 1: he's been through all the surgeries and injuries in the
Speaker 1: car accident. I mean, it's been an incredible decade plus.
Speaker 1: I mean, what have you observed in him is evolution? Um,
Speaker 1: not as a player, we can see that, but all
Speaker 1: the other things. And not that you've been working with
Speaker 1: this whole time. But I know you guys are so
Speaker 1: close and you still and you're still a close observer
Speaker 1: of Tiger. I'm mean, just talk about how it all
Speaker 1: changed once you started working together and where he is
Speaker 1: now and in this journey. I mean, I can't really
Speaker 1: I can't really speculate on what he was like before
Speaker 1: I met him, but I kind of walked into his
Speaker 1: life at the time when everyone was walking out. Um.
Speaker 1: And then right when we started working, Hank Caney wrote
Speaker 1: a book about him called The Big Miss, And so
Speaker 1: that fucking wasn't easy because then it was like, what
Speaker 1: separates me from doing the same thing? And I just said, well,
Speaker 1: just time, you will see in time, I won't write
Speaker 1: a book about you. Um. If I do, it would
Speaker 1: be like the things I learned from Tiger, I won't
Speaker 1: be cripping because I learned about it. I was at
Speaker 1: that time I was coaching Tiger. He'd teach me all
Speaker 1: these little things he'd do, and then I'd take him
Speaker 1: over to Rosie and Hunter and go, hey, this is
Speaker 1: how he flights it into the wind. They're like, oh man,
Speaker 1: that's interesting. So they we all got better. We watched
Speaker 1: him flighted into the wind with no divid and go like,
Speaker 1: how is he doing that? And it stays so flat?
Speaker 1: And then he explained it not really in coaching terms.
Speaker 1: I had to kind of reverse engineer. But um, those
Speaker 1: boys got a lot of tips from Tiger, whether or
Speaker 1: not they realize it. Um, yeah, Look, he's a human being, right,
Speaker 1: And I mean no, he didn't. You want to look
Speaker 1: at troubled adults and you just have to look at
Speaker 1: very very rare different childhoods. And you know, we I
Speaker 1: think that the way Tiger grew up and it was
Speaker 1: just golf, golf, golf, And I don't even really think
Speaker 1: that it was really that much a function of earl er.
Speaker 1: I think his mom told me that he had to
Speaker 1: finish his homework before he went to the golf course,
Speaker 1: so he would do his homework during lunch, which made
Speaker 1: him look anti social. But he just wanted to be
Speaker 1: at the golf course, he's not antisocial. Um, you know,
Speaker 1: having thirty people on each hole and probably learning how
Speaker 1: to be able to get into a bubble and not
Speaker 1: really focus on anything else. You might look like you're
Speaker 1: not warm or you're being rude, but the people are
Speaker 1: being rude are the people who wants him to match
Speaker 1: what they think a good person does. So that's the
Speaker 1: difference with him and Phil obviously, right, And as we
Speaker 1: we've learned about Phil, it is not it's not it's
Speaker 1: not completely that genuine. My experiences with Phil over sixteen years, Uh,
Speaker 1: he's blown me away with what he's remembered about my
Speaker 1: family and things like that. So I think Phil is
Speaker 1: is in that way my own experience. I don't think
Speaker 1: that he's a phony. But I also know about all
Speaker 1: the other stuff too, So I mean, at the end
Speaker 1: of the day, people are running a business and they're
Speaker 1: building a brand, and brand is based on image, and
Speaker 1: image comes from uh, the Greek word I think it's image,
Speaker 1: which means imagine, which is also a synonym for illusion.
Speaker 1: So most people's image is just an illusion anyways, right,
Speaker 1: It's what they're perpetuating for you to see. But we
Speaker 1: don't really get to sit and have dinner with people
Speaker 1: and watch how they treat their kids, or how they
Speaker 1: treat strangers, or how they react to a homeless person.
Speaker 1: So I think on a PGA tour, because it's such
Speaker 1: a five minute relationship, Like Jeff was saying, Hey, how
Speaker 1: you doing a boom boom boom boom boom. It's a
Speaker 1: five minute talk. So I think as time goes on,
Speaker 1: like all these relationships are so honeymoon based that everything
Speaker 1: seems pretty coacher and everything's cool. But once you spend
Speaker 1: way more time around someone, you start realizing, Okay, I
Speaker 1: didn't need I didn't see that before. So I just
Speaker 1: need Tire as a human being who's had a a
Speaker 1: fantastic but a very difficult life. And h he's succumbed
Speaker 1: to start him in fame like every other star who's
Speaker 1: that famous dude? Like they all went, they all ended
Speaker 1: up kind of in the same place. Right, Um, is
Speaker 1: there I don't know about MESSI, but is there even
Speaker 1: a goat who's still married Jack? Jack? Yeah? Right? So,
Speaker 1: And I don't not sure if that's really a idea
Speaker 1: of being a goat, But you know, guys get obsessed
Speaker 1: about this thing, and it's not like that there. They
Speaker 1: just don't see it. They can't even they don't even
Speaker 1: understand that it's there. It's just they're so focused all
Speaker 1: the time on this um and that's the love of
Speaker 1: their life. And I think that that, I think that
Speaker 1: that's okay. But when we judge them against a value based,
Speaker 1: monogamy based society, it's like we pigeonholed people, like this
Speaker 1: is how you should live. That's how I should live.
Speaker 1: To live my life in a way that I can
Speaker 1: look myself in the mirror and I can go to sleep.
Speaker 1: And you know, if you ask me what success was
Speaker 1: twenty years ago, it would be you know, big checks
Speaker 1: and major championships. And now it's kind of come down
Speaker 1: to like when my head hits the pillow, I fall
Speaker 1: asleep quick, and then I wake up excited about going
Speaker 1: about my day. That to me is now success because
Speaker 1: I've done all that other stuff and that really wasn't
Speaker 1: where I felt my best. But I feel my best
Speaker 1: when I'm inspiring people, or when I'm reading or when
Speaker 1: I'm learning. Um, it doesn't really matter, um what's on
Speaker 1: the perception as far as trophies and checks and all
Speaker 1: that so it's all about the climb. It's not really
Speaker 1: about the summit because I mean, the summit basically is
Speaker 1: really cold and there's no fucking oxygen there, and nine
Speaker 1: out of ten climbers die when they go down, not
Speaker 1: when they go up. So being at the summit's a
Speaker 1: pretty actually dangerous place to be when you think about it.
Speaker 1: M Uh, well, I think you've you've inspired and educated
Speaker 1: us here. But as making notes, we've had appearances from Nelson,
Speaker 1: Mandela Sir, Isaac Newton, Guttenberg, Twain, Tom Friedman, some ancient
Speaker 1: Greek to say nothing of Ben Hogan, and a sort
Speaker 1: of other golfers. But it's it's always fun wrapping out
Speaker 1: with you, Sean. We even get to talk about hip hop,
Speaker 1: which I know is really the love of your life.
Speaker 1: We'll say that for the next one for the sequel. Um,
Speaker 1: before we let, Before we let um, our steam gets go. Guys,
Speaker 1: you have any any parting thoughts? Um, it looks shureing you.
Speaker 1: It's always fun to talk. Um. I feel like I
Speaker 1: learned every time and I uh my swing is better now. Um,
Speaker 1: and uh you always make me want to go practice,
Speaker 1: Like I think, if there's any gift but I think
Speaker 1: the best gift you have is you make me want
Speaker 1: to You make me want to go practice, And I
Speaker 1: think that's true of your players that you work with.
Speaker 1: Makes me want to go get better. Um, and that
Speaker 1: might be the most important thing. Mahan was one of
Speaker 1: the greatest players I've ever seen, and then we stopped
Speaker 1: and now Hunter has just retired, right it. A lot
Speaker 1: of things look mental when guys just lose their love
Speaker 1: for what they do. And you know, love for the
Speaker 1: game of golf is so necessary, just like love for
Speaker 1: your kids is so necessary because at the time, if
Speaker 1: you didn't love your kids, you probably put a pillow
Speaker 1: over their head because you know they're not appreciative you
Speaker 1: do all this for them. They so love is literally
Speaker 1: the key because golf, in like life, is going to
Speaker 1: be a struggle. So if you don't like, love is
Speaker 1: basically that like when you fall off the cliff, love
Speaker 1: is kind of the pillows that, yeah, that that saved
Speaker 1: you from it. So I think what we look at
Speaker 1: a lot with players as something mental, I think it's
Speaker 1: more function in their heart. And so if you can
Speaker 1: get players to whenever I start with a player, I
Speaker 1: asked them, like, why golf like why do you play golf?
Speaker 1: And it's like half the time they're trying to say
Speaker 1: something they think I want to hear, but a lot
Speaker 1: of time they actually don't know. And so that's one
Speaker 1: of my first major tasks is to get them to
Speaker 1: kind of re recognize why they play because most of us,
Speaker 1: well all of us, we paid the play as kids
Speaker 1: and we loved it, and then we got paid to
Speaker 1: do it and we ended up being miserable from it,
Speaker 1: and that just doesn't seem right. That just doesn't seem like,
Speaker 1: like how come I get so much joy when I
Speaker 1: work with these mini tour players who can't afford to
Speaker 1: take a lesson with me, And I put two hours
Speaker 1: of time in and I leave like so gratified and like, man,
Speaker 1: this is amazing. And then my player finished second in
Speaker 1: the Masters and I'm depressed for a month. It's like
Speaker 1: that's not it, Like that's not right. Um. So to me,
Speaker 1: it's like, you know, keep the main thing about the
Speaker 1: main thing. So you know, if you want to get
Speaker 1: in good shape, you gotta work out and do cardio,
Speaker 1: but you also have to recover and you have to
Speaker 1: eat right. It's not just one thing. So to me,
Speaker 1: it's about the love. Like what Jeff's talking about is
Speaker 1: he's not getting motivated because I can't motivate you. I
Speaker 1: can't get inside of you. This is not outside in,
Speaker 1: it's inside out. But you know, is to inspire someone
Speaker 1: to Look, if you can inspire Michael Kim to want
Speaker 1: to practice again where it used to be so embarrassing
Speaker 1: to even hit balls while other people were hitting balls,
Speaker 1: and you get him out there and and and and
Speaker 1: he wants to be out there again and do it again.
Speaker 1: If I give him two years and I'll keep him
Speaker 1: on the I'll keep him on the right track. I'll
Speaker 1: put like this. I shouldn't say that i'll keep him
Speaker 1: off the wrong track. I don't. I don't know what's
Speaker 1: really right for any other individual on the planet. I
Speaker 1: know what's right for me, but I know what's wrong
Speaker 1: for him. If I can keep him from doing that,
Speaker 1: then if he was a number one ranked the amateur
Speaker 1: in the world again, we got to have three wins
Speaker 1: in US in the next two years. I wouldn't work
Speaker 1: with him if I didn't believe that he could do it. Um,
Speaker 1: there's the love of it, but there's the business part
Speaker 1: of it. So if I just worked with all the
Speaker 1: people that I love that I'm not sure if I
Speaker 1: can just completely make a living. So it's about having
Speaker 1: the love for coaching. And that love for coaching was
Speaker 1: never golf digest rankings and being famous and having nice ship. Um,
Speaker 1: it wasn't about that. It was like the look on
Speaker 1: that kid's face. It when he basically this was funny, Jeff,
Speaker 1: I've never seen anyone to do this before. And I
Speaker 1: almost pissed myself. He started hitting balls and he's very
Speaker 1: athletic and he he's won some tournaments last year, so
Speaker 1: he can play. Um, And I said, man, you've got
Speaker 1: no need for a three wood. Bro you with with
Speaker 1: your move long irons and three woods don't even need
Speaker 1: to be in your bag. And he goes, that's why
Speaker 1: my three wood is turned upside down. So the three
Speaker 1: wood was grip grip out. And so I said, well, look,
Speaker 1: if you can stretch your arms away from you and
Speaker 1: you can turn more, I think that you have a
Speaker 1: lot of speeds. So you have a lot of lag.
Speaker 1: The lag is not the speed. The lag is the
Speaker 1: function that the arms are moving so fast that the
Speaker 1: club is lagging for longer. Okay, that's it. That's all
Speaker 1: it's doing, all right. You can't You can't speed a
Speaker 1: club up if you don't put a force into it
Speaker 1: to line up to what's swinging it. So I was like, man,
Speaker 1: if I can get his hands a little bit more
Speaker 1: in and get him to turn a little bit more,
Speaker 1: it will give him more time to release the loft
Speaker 1: and will be golden. And he hits this three wood.
Speaker 1: I mean, he couldn't get it off the around and
Speaker 1: you know, three woods are nasty clubs, Jeff, and he's
Speaker 1: kind of hitting these low, skanky right shots, and he
Speaker 1: hits this three one up in the air, and he
Speaker 1: was just so grateful to realize that he wasn't like
Speaker 1: an idiot and he didn't have this mental challenge with
Speaker 1: his three woods. I was like, no, bro, you just
Speaker 1: don't have time to release it. It ain't really based
Speaker 1: on the fact that you were picked on in high school,
Speaker 1: I promise you. And it's not empathy for that, but
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, there's a lot of people who
Speaker 1: who survived the Holocaust and went on to do unbelievable
Speaker 1: things with their life. So don't I appreciate they probably
Speaker 1: had nightmares for the rest of their life, But You're
Speaker 1: not stuck in ten years ago unless you put your
Speaker 1: unless you allow yourself to stay there. So just to
Speaker 1: look on his face, even though there's no payment at
Speaker 1: the end of the lesson, man, that's just I love that,
Speaker 1: and I got to constantly remind myself that that's what
Speaker 1: I love about it. And it shouldn't matter if it's
Speaker 1: for a hundred grand or nothing. It should just be
Speaker 1: that interaction where you showed someone that they were really special.
Speaker 1: They just didn't know how to get to it. Um.
Speaker 1: That's really cool for me because I think when you
Speaker 1: work with somebody like that, you also get to work
Speaker 1: on yourself because I got all kinds of doubts too
Speaker 1: about about my skills and where I could be better.
Speaker 1: I'm just as critical of myself as No one on
Speaker 1: the Golf channel could criticize me as much as I do.
Speaker 1: They probably tried, but they're not able to. So it's
Speaker 1: it's all like a you know, it's just this. You know,
Speaker 1: my dad calls golf the beautiful struggle, and I think
Speaker 1: that it's like life. It's perfect that way. It's like
Speaker 1: it is. It is a beautiful struggle. And you listen
Speaker 1: to Arnold Palmer you know, his quote was that, uh,
Speaker 1: golf is deceptively simple and endlessly complicated, and that was
Speaker 1: his philosophy. He didn't need a mental coach once. Once
Speaker 1: he understood that as his truth. Then when he was
Speaker 1: six under through seven, he probably thought, stay sharp here
Speaker 1: because it's probably about to get difficult. And when he
Speaker 1: played bad for two weeks grow he wasn't looking for
Speaker 1: searches or answers because he'd already recognized it was endlessly complicated.
Speaker 1: So we see a guy who walked around the course,
Speaker 1: you know, looked like he enjoyed himself, looked like he
Speaker 1: enjoyed the whole thing, didn't get that upset, got frustrated.
Speaker 1: But remember frustration is part of success. Like if if
Speaker 1: you don't get frustrated oftentimes, you're not going to get better.
Speaker 1: It's just a lying to how frustrated you get. And
Speaker 1: so here's the guy who knew that it was deceptively
Speaker 1: simple and it was endlessly complicated. So when it was simple,
Speaker 1: it was lying to you, and it was typically complicated.
Speaker 1: So of course he was never surprised when he played
Speaker 1: bad because he'd already accepted that that was the name
Speaker 1: of the game. I mean that's was perfect, right, Like,
Speaker 1: that's just perfect. I love that. Um. All right, Well,
Speaker 1: so we have a tradition here on Nita for it um.
Speaker 1: We like to we like to do a little Monday
Speaker 1: morning quarterbacking of our guests. So, Sean, you've been amazingly
Speaker 1: generous with your time and your insight and this was
Speaker 1: an absolute pleasure. You click the little red phone on
Speaker 1: your screen, you leave, and then we're gonna talk about
Speaker 1: you like it's high school and it's recessed and we're
Speaker 1: gonna whisper about you. But I suspect be mostly good things.
Speaker 1: But so just to get it straight, I'm five six.
Speaker 1: I'm not five ft four, Okay, so that don't don't.
Speaker 1: I'm so proud of Messy. I think he's the only
Speaker 1: goat ever who's five ft six. So way to go Messy. Uh,
Speaker 1: it's writing itself. But just one last thing. You look
Speaker 1: at Ronaldo and you look at MESSI. Ronaldo probably should
Speaker 1: have been a pro golfer, right, and so he wasn't
Speaker 1: working well with his team at all, and you could
Speaker 1: tell it. I mean, anymy start him. And then these
Speaker 1: guys on Argentina are playing a higher level than they've
Speaker 1: ever played because they are inspired to do this for Messy.
Speaker 1: I mean, they're wearing the hat with number ten on it,
Speaker 1: and so they're playing with their hero and they're coming
Speaker 1: like they're playing at a level that they just haven't
Speaker 1: really played a historically because of the love they have
Speaker 1: from Messy and how inspired they are. So it's incredible
Speaker 1: that when people are inspired what they can do and
Speaker 1: when people have like you know, I read this book
Speaker 1: called The Happiness Project, and it made me giggle because one,
Speaker 1: I don't think happiness is a correlation of success anyways,
Speaker 1: but nowhere did it talk about purpose or meaning at all,
Speaker 1: and so I think one of the things that I
Speaker 1: use in my players, I stole it from Victor Frankel
Speaker 1: from Man Search for Meaning and obviously chapter one, and
Speaker 1: anyone who haven't read Man Search for Meaning just please
Speaker 1: like get it on Amazon for six bucks right now.
Speaker 1: It's two chapters. But the first chapter for me was
Speaker 1: life changing, and I use it a lot with people.
Speaker 1: And you know, he had understood obviously as a psychiatrist
Speaker 1: who was taken in the concentration as a Jewish prisoner.
Speaker 1: Imagine being a psychiatrist in a concentration camp. I mean
Speaker 1: talk about the ultimate environment for learning human behavior and survival.
Speaker 1: And he talks in the book about you know, so
Speaker 1: many of the prisoners who should have been dead like
Speaker 1: a year ago, but what kept them alive was just
Speaker 1: the image of their wife and their kids. And so
Speaker 1: they had typhus, they had all these things. They worked
Speaker 1: through negative twenty days with no shoes on, just incredible
Speaker 1: torment and suffering, and as soon as they found out
Speaker 1: that their family had been exterminated, they died within thirty seconds.
Speaker 1: And I think, you know, you can look at couples
Speaker 1: have been married for sixty years and either the husband
Speaker 1: or the wife dies and within a month the other one,
Speaker 1: who was completely healthy, is dead too. And I think
Speaker 1: that that speaks to purpose and meetings. So if you
Speaker 1: can have a purpose that's that big, and normally for
Speaker 1: human being is it's not ourselves, it's something, it's something else. Um.
Speaker 1: I think if you live a purpose driven existence, then
Speaker 1: that's kind of you know, when you're on the high
Speaker 1: seas and there's a massive storm, you've got two things.
Speaker 1: You've got a light to let you know you're go
Speaker 1: in the right direction, and if it gets really bad,
Speaker 1: you have an anchor and regardless of how the boat
Speaker 1: feels like it's going, as long as it's anchored in,
Speaker 1: it's not going to turn over. And then we all
Speaker 1: have to know that that storm isn't gonna last for
Speaker 1: two weeks at worst, it's gonna be four or five days.
Speaker 1: So I think having purpose and meaning and then having
Speaker 1: love for what you do, it's what allows you to
Speaker 1: keep going when things get so hard, because when things
Speaker 1: get going easy, you don't really need I mean, I
Speaker 1: haven't learned anything on vacation ever in my whole life. Um,
Speaker 1: but it's you know, when my players are going through it,
Speaker 1: it's trying to get them to understand like this thing
Speaker 1: that you're trying, Like this adversity you're going through is
Speaker 1: literally giving you a PhD if you're willing to accept
Speaker 1: it and understand it. It's teaching you that you don't
Speaker 1: understand something. So stop changing drivers, stop changing were just,
Speaker 1: stop changing putters, stop changing caddies. None of those things
Speaker 1: are the reason you were ever great anyways, So it's uh, anyways,
Speaker 1: I'll leave it at that. That's awesome. I love it alright. Well, Sean,
Speaker 1: thank you again. Always a pleasure. Um, let see you guys,
Speaker 1: Michael Sean, thanks, Jeff my man. We'll see when the
Speaker 1: when do we see you again? I'm coming over. I'll
Speaker 1: be there this year a little bit. You'll say me,
Speaker 1: next year you're gonna play? Yeah? Where that? Let me?
Speaker 1: You got any new events coming up? Like what would
Speaker 1: be your next event over there? Well, we got the
Speaker 1: sand Belt Invitational UM in Australia. But I'm gonna play pebble.
Speaker 1: I think maybe maybe I'm gonna try to appay a
Speaker 1: for you next year. Yeah, we'll say, all right, good, Yeah,
Speaker 1: we'll see. It's more fun being a golfer. I've tried
Speaker 1: all these other things as golf is still the best
Speaker 1: job I've ever had. That's good stuff. Alright boys again,
Speaker 1: done deal. Well that was some fascinating ship. I mean,
Speaker 1: Sean Foley is really a unique guy. And you're not
Speaker 1: even fifty years old. I mean, he's been out there
Speaker 1: a long time. There's a lot of golf in front
Speaker 1: of him. Obviously, he's passionate, he's quite intelligent, but I
Speaker 1: just just love his perspective on everything. I thought that
Speaker 1: was really cool conversation. Yeah, I enjoyed it. He always
Speaker 1: he always, as I said, when you go for a
Speaker 1: coffee on tour um and showing's there in the locker
Speaker 1: room and you start it's it's like that you end
Speaker 1: up somewhere completely where you didn't think you were going
Speaker 1: to be. But when you connect all the dolts, that's
Speaker 1: actually where it all begins. You know. He does seem
Speaker 1: to look for the root cause of everything, you know,
Speaker 1: hitting a draw, but he start ends I've been a
Speaker 1: concentration camp, but you all I wanted to do was
Speaker 1: hit to draw with it's upon you know, like it's
Speaker 1: not fascinating. Yeah, chipping in a locker room setting. Um,
Speaker 1: what's the percentage Sean talking versus you're talking similar to
Speaker 1: this podcast? Probably? Um no, no, no, We've had some
Speaker 1: grade chats uh in rhandalizing stuff. Yeah. We uh. He's
Speaker 1: a really interesting guy. And there's something about Canadians and
Speaker 1: Australians must be the Commonwealth thing or something. We there's
Speaker 1: some sort of weird we just say the world a
Speaker 1: very similar way, and that's designed with all the Canadians
Speaker 1: I have a chat to. And he's certainly as I said,
Speaker 1: he loves a chat and he loves going into it
Speaker 1: and I like going into it. So he's always been
Speaker 1: I've always loved bumping into him. That's great, that's great stuff. Well,
Speaker 1: this has been another unexpected and eclectic need of fourth,
Speaker 1: which is kind of our mandate. There's a lot of
Speaker 1: golf podcasts we want to you want to just talk
Speaker 1: about seven irons, although they are interesting, but um uh,
Speaker 1: you know, you know what de Vincenzo said about the
Speaker 1: seven iron and very much relates to this conversation. It
Speaker 1: is my professor. I love that. My My favorite de
Speaker 1: Vincenzo bit of advice is to the young sevy. Didn't
Speaker 1: you know this bit? He says, you must be able
Speaker 1: to eat any cuisine, you must be able to sleep
Speaker 1: in any bed, and you must be able to make
Speaker 1: love to any woman. But not so well she want
Speaker 1: to follow you. There you go, We're all the youngest
Speaker 1: spiring golfers out there. Write that down. You're gonna need that.
Speaker 1: Um anyway, all right, this is needed fourth. We will
Speaker 1: be back at it again. We have some great guests
Speaker 1: who we've already taped them. We have others were trying
Speaker 1: to last Sue, but this is this is an ongoing project.
Speaker 1: We're having a lot of fun with. Hopefully you are
Speaker 1: too listening at home. Or in your car, or in
Speaker 1: the gym. So for Jeff Ogilvie and Michael Bamberger, I'm
Speaker 1: Alan SCHIPNUK. Thank you for listening and we'll do it
Speaker 1: again soon. H Oh my god. That is a dangerous
Speaker 1: group here