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Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to cool people who did cool stuff with your host,

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Speaker 2: Margaret Killjoy. But it's a rerun episode. I bet you

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Speaker 2: never would have guessed, despite the fact that it was

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Speaker 2: in the title. You might have noticed that only one

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Speaker 2: episode went up last week and that I'm interrupting the

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Speaker 2: middle of a story to run reruns. And I'm just

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Speaker 2: letting you know that everything is fine. It's just that

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Speaker 2: life sure got in the way. And as you might

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Speaker 2: be able to tell from my voice, I'm also sick,

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Speaker 2: which is a particularly fun thing when your voice is

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Speaker 2: your job. But this week we're going to rerun an

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Speaker 2: episode that I thought we had already rerun, but we

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Speaker 2: have not, and that is a terrible shame because this

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Speaker 2: is an important episode and the third episode we ever

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Speaker 2: ran of this show, because we're going to be talking

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Speaker 2: about the Jane Collective of Chicago, and we're going to

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Speaker 2: be talking about the direct action abortion access that happened

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Speaker 2: and pre Roe v. Wade and is totally happening. I mean,

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Speaker 2: it would never admit that crime is happening post Roe v.

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Speaker 2: Wade because people need to be able to control their bodies,

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Speaker 2: and I don't know, it's an important part of the struggle,

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Speaker 2: And so here we are running this episode. I think

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Speaker 2: it's been a while since I've listened to it. I

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Speaker 2: think at the beginning, when we first started recording, I

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Speaker 2: think Roe v. Wade hadn't even been overturned yet, and

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Speaker 2: maybe we were both like, oh, I sure hope this

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Speaker 2: doesn't become necessary, but maybe it'd already had. I don't

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Speaker 2: know you're about to find out, but I don't know

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Speaker 2: because I'm sick. So actually, now I better understand what

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Speaker 2: you all are about to understand, which is that we

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Speaker 2: recorded this episode years ago when I think the memo

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Speaker 2: was first being leaked or whatever that Roe v. Wade

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Speaker 2: was going to be overturned. But I want to just

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Speaker 2: go ahead and shout out here at the beginning. Probably

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Speaker 2: this episode plugs, but if not, it should plug. The

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Speaker 2: National Network of Abortion Funds is a really good place

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Speaker 2: to donate to. Also, I want to direct people towards

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Speaker 2: Plan cpills dot org. Plan C basically is a word

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Speaker 2: for medicated abortion that can be self managed. And if

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Speaker 2: you want to know a bunch about self managing abortion,

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Speaker 2: which is substantially safer than it was during the period

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Speaker 2: that the Jains were working. There's an excellent zine that's

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Speaker 2: free published by Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness that you

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Speaker 2: can get at Tangled Wilderness dot org. And there's like

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Speaker 2: a free version online. You can also buy bulk copies

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Speaker 2: for cost or print them out yourself and distribute them.

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Speaker 2: And it's called how to Do It Anyway by Hazel Acacia,

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Speaker 2: and that is a step by step guide written by

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Speaker 2: an abortion worker talking about how to use medicated abortions,

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Speaker 2: how to use Plan C pills. So those are some resources. Anyway,

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Speaker 2: here's the show. Hi, Margaret here with Samantha today's guest,

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Speaker 2: recording a new introduction to this episode because a lot

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Speaker 2: has happened since we recorded it only a couple of

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Speaker 2: weeks ago. Normally, this is a history podcast in the

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Speaker 2: way that our subjects tying to current events is left

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Speaker 2: up to the listener's imagination. But this is kind of

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Speaker 2: an exceptional moment because when we recorded this episode, which

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Speaker 2: is about abortion access and direct action abortion access, specifically

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Speaker 2: the Jaine Collective, Well, I guess you all saw that

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Speaker 2: when you saw the title of the episode when you

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Speaker 2: downloaded it. We kind of joke about, I think during

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Speaker 2: the course of recording about not joke but we say, well,

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Speaker 2: the overturning of Roe v. Wade is a potential threat.

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Speaker 2: And since then we've obviously all seen that there's a

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Speaker 2: leak document that says, well, it's not a potential threat,

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Speaker 2: it is an almost certainty that is happening. The Supreme

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Speaker 2: Court intends to overthrow Roe v. Wade. Samantha, do you

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Speaker 2: have a better overview than that.

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Speaker 3: So here is what we have been able to read

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Speaker 3: and what we know that in this late document, they

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Speaker 3: have already voted to overturn Roe v. Wade, and they

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Speaker 3: did it through the Supreme Court case of Dobb's v.

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Speaker 3: Jackson Women's Health Organization, which is based out of Mississippi,

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Speaker 3: which also is a trigger state. And if you don't

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Speaker 3: know what trigger state is, it means they are ready

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Speaker 3: to go the minute Roe v. Wade is overturned, that

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Speaker 3: there will be in an immediate ban on abortion the

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Speaker 3: second it happens. So they are called the trigger states,

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Speaker 3: and there are several we'll mention that in a minute,

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Speaker 3: and Mississippi is one of those. So in this brief

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Speaker 3: that we read from Judge Alito, who is the one

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Speaker 3: that has written this up, it is ninety eight pages

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Speaker 3: long with like forty something pages of an appendix to

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Speaker 3: talk about his argument about why Roe v. Wade should

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Speaker 3: be overturned. And he begins his statement, and I think

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Speaker 3: it's something that we need to talk about because the

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Speaker 3: language in itself is going to be repeated throughout. I'm

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Speaker 3: not going to read it. I swear to God, I'm not.

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Speaker 3: I cried. I screamed at the computer when I was

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Speaker 3: reading this and dissecting it, and I want to vomit

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Speaker 3: as we are talking about it. But in it he writes, Yeah.

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Speaker 3: He begins the statement with talking about how divisive this

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Speaker 3: issue is and is a profound moral issue. So he

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Speaker 3: is allowing this conversation to take into a whole load

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Speaker 3: of feelings and automatically place what he feels is morality

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Speaker 3: and his own morality onto this. So that's how it begins.

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Speaker 3: And then he talks about the fact that the Constitution

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Speaker 3: and we hold that row and casey, which is the

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Speaker 3: Casey versus Planned parenthood, which happened in the nineties that

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Speaker 3: helped keep up with the bro v. Wade, that it

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Speaker 3: must be overruled. The Constitution makes no reference to abortion,

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Speaker 3: and no such right is implicitly protected by any constitutional provision,

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Speaker 3: including the one on which the defenders of Roe and

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Speaker 3: Casey now chiefly rely the due process clause of the

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Speaker 3: fourteenth Amendment. So in that clause, just for people, I

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Speaker 3: have a feeling so many people, the people listening to

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Speaker 3: this are so smart, they're gonna be like, would you

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Speaker 3: shut up and move on? But just in case, just

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Speaker 3: in case, is that privacy, the right to privacy which

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Speaker 3: is not necessarily mentioned, but it is based in this

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Speaker 3: And they took that language and said, yes, this is

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Speaker 3: about privacy. So that's very important, as we know, because

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Speaker 3: it goes to a slew of other unconstitutional constitutional things.

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Speaker 3: So he talks about that, and that he continues on

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Speaker 3: that provision has been held to guarantee some rights that

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Speaker 3: are not mentioned in the Constitution, but many such must

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Speaker 3: be quote deeply rooted in this nation's history and tradition

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Speaker 3: and implicitly in the concept of ordered liberty. So ordered

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Speaker 3: liberty as well as nation's history is going to be

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Speaker 3: all throughout this brief. His whole stance is that because

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Speaker 3: it was never mentioned in the Constitution, that it was

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Speaker 3: never ever a constitutional thing and should not be allowed

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Speaker 3: as a constitutional thing, and that it wasn't even mentioned

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Speaker 3: to be a right until nineteen seventy three, and because

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Speaker 3: of that, this is not a constitutional issue. And the

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Speaker 3: other part to this is that ordered liberty. So when

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Speaker 3: we talk about ordered liberty, this is when he is

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Speaker 3: saying that he and a certain amount of people have

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Speaker 3: the right to tell you what your liberties are, and

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Speaker 3: they get to tell you what is orderly. So this

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Speaker 3: is why we're talking about how this is going to

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Speaker 3: overturn it because he's able to make this a state's

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Speaker 3: right thing, in which he said that's how it's always been,

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Speaker 3: that's how it's always should be. Roe v. Wade overstepped

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Speaker 3: because they took something out of context from an eighteen

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Speaker 3: sixty eight idea of this constitutional conversation. So where we

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Speaker 3: are today, Yes, there's back and forth right now about

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Speaker 3: it's not that big of a deal because the states

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Speaker 3: can govern. It's not an outright ban technically what we

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Speaker 3: were talking about earlier. When I was talking about earlier

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Speaker 3: with the trigger states. The states are Idaho, Utah, Wyoming, Texas, Louisiana, Tennessee, Kentucky, Missouri, Arkansas, Mississippi,

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Speaker 3: North Dakota, South Dakota, and Oklahoma. And even though in

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Speaker 3: my state of Georgia. They don't necessarily have a trigger law.

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Speaker 3: Yet what they have done is come at the abortion

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Speaker 3: clinics and abortion facilities telling them go ahead and get ready.

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Speaker 3: And so a lot of the clinics have stopped taking

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Speaker 3: appointments and canceled appointments at this point in time. So

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Speaker 3: it's very very dangerous and where we are, even though

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Speaker 3: it's not necessarily a trigger state, those who are sitting

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Speaker 3: in most likely more liberal left leaning are quote unquote okay,

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Speaker 3: it is those who are what would be the red

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Speaker 3: states that could be heavily heavily affected.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. And what people I think often forget when they're

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Speaker 2: like sitting comfortably in their blue states or whatever, is that,

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Speaker 2: you know, the margins that we're talking about. The difference

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Speaker 2: between a red state and blue state is actually not

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Speaker 2: incredibly dramatic. It's not like the red states are all, like,

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Speaker 2: you know, right now, tinety percent people who want to

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Speaker 2: get rid of this or something like that. It might

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Speaker 2: be fifty one percent or even well, I guess, actually

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Speaker 2: abortion itself, what is it like sixty nine percent of Americans?

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Speaker 3: Right, seventy percent you want to keep it? And in

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Speaker 3: the state of Georgia is sixty eight percent as well.

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Speaker 3: So even though people think of us as just like

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Speaker 3: the silly red state, though we proved them wrong in

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Speaker 3: the last few elections. And I know this. I am

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Speaker 3: with one hundred percent with everyone when I say this

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Speaker 3: government is bullshit and there's things to be so many

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Speaker 3: things changed, and I am frustrated to the core because

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Speaker 3: nothing like some things are better and this is better

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Speaker 3: than it was. But at the same time, what happened

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Speaker 3: in twenty sixteen really really fucked up everything else, and

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Speaker 3: what we are seeing is the detriment of that. However,

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Speaker 3: it's not a fix all. I understand this, But what

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Speaker 3: we're saying is in the state of Georgia, the majority

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Speaker 3: of the voters, who are typically women of color and

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Speaker 3: people of color, are all about our current senators and

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Speaker 3: those who are pushing to that point. But jerry mandering

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Speaker 3: has made it almost impossible, as well as voter suppression,

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Speaker 3: to get to move and push it to the right direction. Nearly,

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Speaker 3: I do say nearly, And it's frustrating because yes, we

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Speaker 3: are going to be affected, even though Georgia is not

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Speaker 3: a trigger state as we were talking about earlier. Obviously,

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Speaker 3: he's already had he being Governor Kemp has already put

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Speaker 3: in the sixth week ban and just kind of sitting

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Speaker 3: in a court right now, and if these things change

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Speaker 3: is over.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, honestly, I mean, besides the fact that we

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Speaker 2: have an unelected shadow council that makes all the decisions

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Speaker 2: about what happens with our bodies, really the point of

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Speaker 2: this episode that you all are about to listen to

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Speaker 2: is about direct action abortion access and how even when

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Speaker 2: the law is not on your side, this is still

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Speaker 2: going to happen, and how can we make it happen

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Speaker 2: as well as possible, as safely as possible. There's also,

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Speaker 2: unfortunately other effects that could happen beyond just this. I

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Speaker 2: was talking to my lawyer, the amazing Moira Meltzer Cohen,

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Speaker 2: who said that we need prepared for all of the

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Speaker 2: p number cases, which are cases that put forth the

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Speaker 2: idea that consutitutional due process implies a right to privacy.

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Speaker 2: This was called the penumber basically during Griswold versus Connecticut,

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Speaker 2: which is the case that legalized birth control, and so

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Speaker 2: basically saying that they had a penumber, a sort of

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Speaker 2: shadow that implied rights to privacy, and lawyers on both

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Speaker 2: sides have been arguing that this is a terrible and

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Speaker 2: flimsy legal standing for a very long time. But other

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Speaker 2: things that rely on that include, as I mentioned, birth control,

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Speaker 2: but also gay sex or really any sex that isn't

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Speaker 2: for procreation could theoretically be criminalized once again. And so

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Speaker 2: what we're going to do is we're going to link

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Speaker 2: to a lot of resources in the show notes, encourage

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Speaker 2: people to look into things, look into ways to contribute,

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Speaker 2: look into ways to if you have your own needs,

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Speaker 2: how you can meet those directly, if you or help

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Speaker 2: other people meet their needs directly through lots of different ways.

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Speaker 3: And for those who are in a point I know

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Speaker 3: people are filling a time crunch. Because there is a

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Speaker 3: time crunch. Abortion is still legal and accessible. The home

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Speaker 3: abortion pill is FDA proved to be sent by mail,

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Speaker 3: So if you need to do that, do that. That

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Speaker 3: is still accessible and it's still around, And we do

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Speaker 3: see organizations that are coming through kind of like the

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Speaker 3: Jain Collective did on a better, bigger level, which I

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Speaker 3: love every bit of that. That's kind of that silver lining.

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Speaker 3: And again, yeah, things that we'd see such as birth control,

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Speaker 3: we are seeing things in play Missouri and Louisiana has

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Speaker 3: decided to put in a clause in their trigger laws

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Speaker 3: that includes IUDs being illegal. So that means someone who

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Speaker 3: has an IUD, which has become very effective, may be prosecuted.

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Speaker 3: As well as the fact that those who are going

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Speaker 3: through things like topic pregnancy, which is when again I

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Speaker 3: think we talk about it later, the egg is the

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Speaker 3: fertilized egg is stuck in Europhilippian tube and kills a person,

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Speaker 3: can kill a person damaged and severely. This will be

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Speaker 3: if you try to extract that, that'll be considered abortion

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Speaker 3: as well. So this is why these laws are so

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Speaker 3: important that we pay attention to it. Again, that privacy clause.

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Speaker 3: That's what they're coming after, and that includes gay marriage,

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Speaker 3: that includes consensual adult sex, that includes so much more.

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Speaker 3: And that's why this is so damn scary.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and we'll leave it to the listener's imagination about

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Speaker 2: the methods that might be necessary when the democratic process

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Speaker 2: has failed. But one thing also will say is that

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Speaker 2: I love this episode that you're all about to hear,

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Speaker 2: but don't listen to it. To determine how to self

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Speaker 2: manage abortions, look elsewhere for information about how to self

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Speaker 2: manage abortions. Medicated abortions are readily available at least at

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Speaker 2: the moment, and are substantially better than what is available

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Speaker 2: and what was available to the heroes of today's episode.

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Speaker 2: So what can people do, Like if people have if

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Speaker 2: people want to donate, what would what would you suggest?

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Speaker 3: So I don't want to give you specific organizations because

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Speaker 3: it affects different people different in different places. But one

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Speaker 3: of the things I would say is planned parenthood is

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Speaker 3: not necessarily where you should donate. Maybe start looking at

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Speaker 3: specific clinics and funds that you are appreciative of or

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Speaker 3: think that they can do a good job. Research who

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Speaker 3: you're donating to. Also, if you're in a safe state,

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Speaker 3: as we said, and I'm going to call the safe states,

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Speaker 3: I don't know if that's what they're called. We're just

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Speaker 3: going to quote it, like in one of the states

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Speaker 3: where the government is allowing and talking about, Yeah, abortion,

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Speaker 3: it should be part of healthcare. Then maybe look to

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Speaker 3: the trigger states that we mentioned earlier and help donate

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Speaker 3: to those states because they are in deep danger as

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Speaker 3: I said before about losing everything very quickly.

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Speaker 4: Very fast.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And the people I've been talking to and asking

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Speaker 2: for advice about where to put your energy in terms

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Speaker 2: of organizations to support, have also suggested that abortion funds

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Speaker 2: are specifically the place go. And then also one other

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Speaker 2: one that again my lawyer friend recommended, is called the

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Speaker 2: repro Legal Defense Fund, which is a fund that supports

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Speaker 2: people who are investigated, arrested, or prosecuted for self managed

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Speaker 2: abortion or for helping end their own or someone else's pregnancy.

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Speaker 2: And so that is a thing that legal defense is

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Speaker 2: going to have to become part of all of this

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Speaker 2: as well, unfortunately.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, And if you kind of want to know what

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Speaker 3: is impacted and how you can impact better, you can

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Speaker 3: also go to the National Network of Abortion Funds and

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Speaker 3: they kind of have a list of who is in

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Speaker 3: need of services and what type of services are being

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Speaker 3: used for what funds, and that could give you a

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Speaker 3: kind of at least an audited sheet of who you're

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Speaker 3: giving to and what they're doing.

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Speaker 2: And here's the episode. Hello and welcome to Cool People

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Speaker 2: Who Did Cool Stuff, the podcast that needs no introduction.

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Speaker 1: No, no, no, Margaret, it needs an introduction.

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Speaker 2: Okay, welcome to the Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff,

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Speaker 2: the podcast that apparently needs an introduction. Every week, I'm

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Speaker 2: going to bring you a new story of cool people

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Speaker 2: who did cool stuff, thus the title I'm your host,

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Speaker 2: Margaret kildoy, And this week I have on Samantha McVay,

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Speaker 2: who is the host of the also stuff related podcast

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Speaker 2: Stuff Mom Never told you. Samantha, how are you doing good?

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Speaker 3: Thank you for having me on the show, and yay,

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Speaker 3: welcome to the fam and all the things. So excited

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Speaker 3: to have you as a part of our network family.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm really excited. Okay, So I've also Sophie on

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Speaker 2: the call. Sophie's the producer. How are you doing Superheroes?

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Speaker 1: Sophie over here doing I'm doing.

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Speaker 2: Okay.

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Speaker 3: This is that is that is a theme of one,

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Speaker 3: twenty whatever year it is we're doing time. It's not real.

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Speaker 2: It does not exist, especially since what we're recording will

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Speaker 2: make no sense to people who are listening to it

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Speaker 2: twenty five years from now.

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Speaker 4: Oh gosh, yeah, I hope so.

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Speaker 2: But so, Samantha, I'm wondering, how do you feel about

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Speaker 2: reproductive rights? Would you say that overall you're pro or

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Speaker 2: anti you deciding what happens with your body?

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Speaker 3: You know, as someone who does have a uterus and

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Speaker 3: feels the fact that I'm a pretty smart and capable

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Speaker 3: woman that I should be allowed to have my choices,

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Speaker 3: and that being dictated by cis white men telling me

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Speaker 3: that they need control over my body because they're afraid

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Speaker 3: of the vagina in general and uterus and the power

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Speaker 3: of the uterus. I'm gonna say, I'm pro everything about it,

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Speaker 3: and let's go ahead and say, nah, bra get out

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Speaker 3: of it. Well. Is that a long winded answer.

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Speaker 2: No, No, this is great. It would be a very

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Speaker 2: different in short podcast appear answer was wildly different from that.

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Speaker 1: I was like, Margaret, I have this really great person

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Speaker 1: that I want to have on this specific topic that

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Speaker 1: comes on and it's like.

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Speaker 3: Oh, yes, well you know how I feel it used

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Speaker 3: to be. Can I tell you this. I grew up

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Speaker 3: in a very conservative For the listeners who are familiar

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Speaker 3: with me, I grew up in a very conservative town.

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Speaker 3: My parents are white. I'm adopted, and they're very conservative

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Speaker 3: people who have always voted on moralities, including anti choice

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Speaker 3: a lifestyle. And for the longest time I was told

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Speaker 3: because I was adopted, I should be anti choice or

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Speaker 3: I wouldn't have existed. This whole like guilt trip onto

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Speaker 3: me about that, making it seem like I was in

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Speaker 3: the wrong for say, but wait, the biggest conversation is

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Speaker 3: you're telling me that you really feel like you can't

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Speaker 3: trust me as an adult, as a person, as an

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Speaker 3: individual to make my own choices in life, and that

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Speaker 3: it needed to be dictated by a government. But nothing

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Speaker 3: else does. Okay, but it took me a long time

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Speaker 3: to get out of that headspind because you know, you

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Speaker 3: want to acclimate and be a part of whatever your

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Speaker 3: society or community you're in.

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Speaker 4: Give me a while to be youre out. Oh god,

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Speaker 4: that's gross.

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Speaker 3: What is happened? You know what kind of control had

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Speaker 3: it on there? So honestly, if you'd asked me that

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Speaker 3: twenty years ago, we would have had a different conversation.

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Speaker 2: Okay, No, that I mean, that's fair and like it.

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Speaker 2: You know, there's a lot of indoctrination that we all

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Speaker 2: feel with them. I'm almost sort of lucky in that,

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Speaker 2: like I was always just like such one of the

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Speaker 2: bad kids that I was pretty young when like my

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Speaker 2: friends started having abortions. And I'm so grateful that they

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Speaker 2: had that opportunity because a lot of them were able

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Speaker 2: to like get out of the situations they were in,

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Speaker 2: you know, because they had that access. But right, well,

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Speaker 2: today's heroes have come to similar conclusions that we have

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Speaker 2: about being pro people deciding what to do with their

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Speaker 2: own bodies. And because okay, people were going to talk

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Speaker 2: about fucking cool, and I'm going to be talking about

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Speaker 2: direct action abortion access, and in particular, I'm going to

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Speaker 2: focus on one crew of women out of Chicago, the

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Speaker 2: Notorious Jane Collective.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, oh, this is one of my favorites.

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Speaker 4: Come on, I'm ready, let's go.

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Speaker 2: And so I think actually the podcast that you're on,

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Speaker 2: I don't think you are the host of this particular episode,

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Speaker 2: but the podcast you run actually did an interview with

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Speaker 2: the founder of Jane, Heather Booth. I just want to

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Speaker 2: acknowledge that. And so it was fucking cool, and I

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Speaker 2: listened to that while I was getting ready for this

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Speaker 2: one and before I start getting too deep into it.

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Speaker 2: So I'm going to talk about abortion right, and so

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Speaker 2: I'm going to be talking about how it is and

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Speaker 2: isn't a women's issue in the modern context. I want

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Speaker 2: to acknowledge upfront that abortion is not just a women's issue.

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Speaker 2: Plenty of people who are not women can get pregnant

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Speaker 2: and might not want to be whether that's some trans men,

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Speaker 2: some non binary people and some INTERSECX people who can

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Speaker 2: all get pregnant. And I will say that one day

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Speaker 2: it's as likely as not that some trans woman is

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Speaker 2: going to get pregnant. And there's this meme floating around

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Speaker 2: that I really like, is that what will really drive

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Speaker 2: the right wing into a rage is when the first

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Speaker 2: trans woman gets pregnant. It's when the first trans woman

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Speaker 2: chooses to have an abortion. But I also will say that,

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Speaker 2: so it's not just a women's issue, but it is

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Speaker 2: also a women's issue as well, and I don't want

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Speaker 2: to cut that out of the conversation either. And I

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Speaker 2: spent a while trying to figure how to phrase all

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Speaker 2: this right because it's a kind of a moving target

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Speaker 2: to understand how we talk about this stuff. So I

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Speaker 2: would say the history of the limitation of abortion access

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Speaker 2: is entirely entangled with the history of misogyny and with

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Speaker 2: controlling women's bodies and denying us agency. And there's plenty

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Speaker 2: of women who can't get pregnant, whether it's because of age, surgeries,

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Speaker 2: hormone shifts, the way we were born. But something doesn't

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Speaker 2: need to affect like every single woman to be a

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Speaker 2: woman's issue, to be something that affects all of us,

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Speaker 2: because patriarchal society wanting to control women's bodies doesn't stop

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Speaker 2: with the women who can get pregnant, right, They want

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Speaker 2: to control everybody. So I guess what I want to

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Speaker 2: say to anyone's listening and just to kind of provide

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Speaker 2: the context that I'm coming from, is that when I'm

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Speaker 2: talking about abortion access, I'm trying to talk about it

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Speaker 2: from both of these angles at once, to sort of

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Speaker 2: intersecting axes of oppression is people with the ability to

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Speaker 2: give birth and people who are women, and which is

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Speaker 2: very often an intersection, right, but not always. And then

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Speaker 2: of course we're talking about shit that happened like fifty

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Speaker 2: years ago, right, And so a lot of the existing

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Speaker 2: language about the people that we're going to be talking

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Speaker 2: about will be referring to people as women and will

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Speaker 2: be approaching it primarily from this lens of a women's issue,

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Speaker 2: and I'm trying to, well, I'm going to try and

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Speaker 2: be more directly inclusive throughout. I'm not trying to like

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Speaker 2: cast judgment on these people who framed it in the

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Speaker 2: ways that they understood it as the best way to

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Speaker 2: frame it. So that's my disclaimer. They spent more time

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Speaker 2: on than like the rest of it. That's not true.

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Speaker 4: It has to you have to though, Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so abortion in legality right. Abortion has been a

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Speaker 2: contentious issue since forever, and sometimes it's about morality, Like

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Speaker 2: on an individual level, A lot of people are against

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Speaker 2: abortion because of what they consider morality. And some religious

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Speaker 2: groups teach that life begins to conception or at the quickening,

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Speaker 2: which is when a pregnant person can first feel the

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Speaker 2: baby moving, which is usually about halfway through the pregnancy.

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Speaker 2: It happens I guess a couple weeks earlier in pregnancies,

434
00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:13,119
Speaker 2: after the first pregnancy that a person has. Other people

435
00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:15,399
Speaker 2: claim that life begins at viability, which is when the

436
00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:17,680
Speaker 2: fetus would be able to survive outside the womb, which

437
00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:21,080
Speaker 2: is usually around seven months, and then other religions and

438
00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:24,159
Speaker 2: other concepts and faiths teach that life begins at birth.

439
00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:27,280
Speaker 2: And it isn't as like simple as like this religion

440
00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:29,520
Speaker 2: believes this. This religion believes that there's not like one

441
00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:32,080
Speaker 2: answer about like how Christianity believes or whatever. Right, It's

442
00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:36,360
Speaker 2: all different and changing at different times. I also, frankly

443
00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:40,439
Speaker 2: don't care on some level like whether or not I

444
00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:42,239
Speaker 2: am or I'm not a religious person, like I have

445
00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:45,560
Speaker 2: no interest in letting religion dictate the laws of society.

446
00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:49,400
Speaker 2: So there's this case that a lot of people make

447
00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:52,639
Speaker 2: that the restriction of abortion has nothing to do with

448
00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:56,240
Speaker 2: morality or religion, but instead about the control of bodies,

449
00:23:56,320 --> 00:24:00,199
Speaker 2: right of women's bodies, and women's bodies and the like.

450
00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:02,359
Speaker 2: By extension, all of the people who are in the

451
00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:05,720
Speaker 2: periphery of womanhood and I don't know, it's like and

452
00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:08,040
Speaker 2: sometimes they're relieve and open about this desire where it's

453
00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:10,760
Speaker 2: like literally just about controlling reproduction. A lot of countries

454
00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:15,960
Speaker 2: they say that motherhood is like patriotic right, because really,

455
00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:17,920
Speaker 2: at the end of the day, it's about this, like, well,

456
00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:21,320
Speaker 2: we want more babies to throw into the you know,

457
00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:24,960
Speaker 2: gristmill of labor and war and shit.

458
00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:28,840
Speaker 3: If you are looking at the QAnon level of U

459
00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:33,880
Speaker 3: of the mom groups is an interesting fight they have

460
00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:35,840
Speaker 3: and a part of the solution, and part of that

461
00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:40,080
Speaker 3: fight is to birth their own babies, meaning like typically

462
00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:45,160
Speaker 3: white children, and making sure that that the neeedae continues

463
00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:47,600
Speaker 3: in this big olf fight in the q Andon war.

464
00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:49,880
Speaker 4: It's a whole rabbit hole in itself.

465
00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:53,119
Speaker 2: I wish I didn't know that. Thanks for telling me

466
00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:55,679
Speaker 2: this terrible thing that's happening. Oh my god, It's like

467
00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:57,520
Speaker 2: it doesn't surprise me at all. No, it doesn't surprise

468
00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:00,879
Speaker 2: me at all. But I'm like, of course they're doing that.

469
00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:01,600
Speaker 2: God damn it.

470
00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:03,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm so sorry.

471
00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:05,400
Speaker 2: No, no, no, no, I no, these.

472
00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:07,800
Speaker 3: Are the no. I will tell you. I probably should

473
00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:10,480
Speaker 3: have given you that heads up as on our show

474
00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:16,080
Speaker 3: on Stuff, Mom've never told you I am the pessimist. Okay, okay,

475
00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:20,600
Speaker 3: hoose that brings out the unfun facts. So apologies in advance.

476
00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:22,479
Speaker 2: No, no, no, that's perfect because I've tried to do this,

477
00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:24,560
Speaker 2: like I mean, it's ironic. I picked this name kill

478
00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:26,480
Speaker 2: Joy and then I like dedicate my life to trying

479
00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:28,639
Speaker 2: to spread revolutionary hope. But I love that.

480
00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:29,320
Speaker 3: I love that.

481
00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:32,680
Speaker 2: I love that we have this balance today. It's perfect.

482
00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:37,560
Speaker 3: Fun fun facts with Samantha McVay. That should be a show. Welcome,

483
00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:38,720
Speaker 3: you should have a show.

484
00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:40,239
Speaker 2: I want to be a guest on that.

485
00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:43,840
Speaker 3: It should be fun facts Samantha. Okay, you need to

486
00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:46,040
Speaker 3: start this up. You're the creator of all shows. Let's

487
00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:46,360
Speaker 3: do this.

488
00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:52,920
Speaker 2: I'm in, I'm in, okay. So, the first European government

489
00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:56,359
Speaker 2: to legalize abortion was revolutionary Russia as far as I

490
00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:59,919
Speaker 2: can research, And in October nineteen twenty they legalized abortion.

491
00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:02,959
Speaker 2: And some people will talk about how they did from

492
00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:04,680
Speaker 2: a feminist point of view, A lot of other stuff

493
00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:07,640
Speaker 2: will say they did it because they were all starving

494
00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:10,199
Speaker 2: and so they just were like, uh, it's okay to

495
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:13,520
Speaker 2: nott have babies for this moment, right, And I think

496
00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:15,159
Speaker 2: there's a lot of strong case to be made for

497
00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:17,480
Speaker 2: that that they didn't Actually some of them cared, some

498
00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:19,400
Speaker 2: of them didn't care. I don't know, because they also

499
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:21,959
Speaker 2: got rid of abortion again various points, and then they

500
00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:25,159
Speaker 2: had like huge pro natal PR campaigns, and then of

501
00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:30,120
Speaker 2: course Stalin made it illegal again because he's Stalin and

502
00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:34,919
Speaker 2: he only does bad things. And Okay, the law that

503
00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:37,480
Speaker 2: he passed on June twenty seventh, nineteen thirty six, is

504
00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:41,080
Speaker 2: the most Soviet name I've ever heard, which is the

505
00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:44,159
Speaker 2: Decree on the Prohibition of Abortions, the improvement of Material

506
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:46,680
Speaker 2: Aid to Women in childbirth, the establishment of state assistants

507
00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:48,600
Speaker 2: to parents of large families, and the extension of lying

508
00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:50,879
Speaker 2: in homes, nursery schools in kindergartens. The typ you know

509
00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:53,440
Speaker 2: of criminal punishments and the non payment of alimony, and

510
00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:56,440
Speaker 2: on certain modifications on Levor's legislation.

511
00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:00,880
Speaker 4: That rolls right off the tongue. That was amazing job.

512
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:07,879
Speaker 1: On certain modifications in divorce legislation. Yeah, all right, I

513
00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:11,720
Speaker 1: was just making sure I got yeah, yeah, okay, cool

514
00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:13,160
Speaker 1: cool obviously.

515
00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:18,320
Speaker 2: Yeah. And then one of the other times that abortion

516
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:20,680
Speaker 2: was legalized in Europe, I actually think was really cool

517
00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:23,040
Speaker 2: and not like, oh, maybe why are they doing this?

518
00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:26,960
Speaker 2: But during the Spanish Civil War in I guess probably

519
00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:29,119
Speaker 2: nineteen thirty six or so, I didn't I don't remember

520
00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:32,560
Speaker 2: the actual year, and an anarchist became the first min

521
00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:35,000
Speaker 2: the first woman minister of health, and like one of

522
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:39,040
Speaker 2: the first women ministers in government in Europe. This anarchist woman,

523
00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:43,399
Speaker 2: Federica Monsani, became the Minister of Health of the Second

524
00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:46,480
Speaker 2: Spanish Republic, and she legalized abortion because it was the

525
00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:51,399
Speaker 2: right thing to do. And then Franco successfully invaded the

526
00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:55,040
Speaker 2: special Second Spanish Republic and it was a whole war

527
00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:57,160
Speaker 2: thing that happened, and it didn't really go very well,

528
00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:01,159
Speaker 2: and Spain got fascist own instead of legalize abortion. So

529
00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:08,000
Speaker 2: close to getting it right, no, I almost like don't

530
00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:09,480
Speaker 2: know where to stick this. But one of the things

531
00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:11,400
Speaker 2: that I think about a lot when I'm talking about

532
00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:14,040
Speaker 2: how like, why are they making abortion illegal? Is it

533
00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:16,359
Speaker 2: morality or is it social control? And I think that

534
00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:19,200
Speaker 2: as soon as you start throwing birth control into it too,

535
00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:21,439
Speaker 2: it becomes so obvious that it's not about morality, it's

536
00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:24,119
Speaker 2: about social control, because all of the same stuff that's

537
00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:26,520
Speaker 2: illegalizing abortion is like, you know, I'm going to do

538
00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:28,720
Speaker 2: a whole episode about the birth control fight at some point,

539
00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:33,560
Speaker 2: but it's just this whole parallel thing where basically they're like, right,

540
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:36,800
Speaker 2: you shouldn't have sex, that doesn't make babies. That's wrong, right,

541
00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:37,440
Speaker 2: it's because they.

542
00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:40,360
Speaker 3: Just which is by the way, a new headline that

543
00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:42,960
Speaker 3: I've seen all of a sudden coming back round from

544
00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:47,040
Speaker 3: the right wing conversation is the same narrative of you

545
00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:50,040
Speaker 3: shouldn't have sex, it's for making children, you can't handle

546
00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:52,600
Speaker 3: having children, you shouldn't be having sex. Like it's this

547
00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:54,600
Speaker 3: new I've seen it trending in. I was like, what

548
00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:57,240
Speaker 3: is happening? Are we bringing that back again? Is this

549
00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:00,600
Speaker 3: really the nineteen eighties, seventies sixties, however, which, by the way,

550
00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:04,520
Speaker 3: abortion didn't happen till like the nineteen sixties in the US,

551
00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:08,600
Speaker 3: like why are we back here? But yeah, I agree

552
00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:10,320
Speaker 3: with you this whole level of like when we really

553
00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:12,760
Speaker 3: look at it, obviously, that's the conversation we've had about

554
00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:15,800
Speaker 3: is it really your pro life? Are you just anti choice?

555
00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:16,920
Speaker 4: Like that's the conversation.

556
00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:20,560
Speaker 2: Totally, No, totally yeah, because yeah, you're literally anti people

557
00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:25,080
Speaker 2: choosing to have like, you know, sane, consensual whatever the

558
00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:28,080
Speaker 2: phrasing is, the safe sex that's consensual and happy and

559
00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:31,200
Speaker 2: all that shit. But then, okay, so when I'm doing

560
00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:32,600
Speaker 2: all this like preface stuff, I'm going to get to

561
00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:35,880
Speaker 2: Jane soon. A lot of feminists, including today's heroes, they

562
00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:38,400
Speaker 2: weren't necessarily even just fighting for the legalization of abortion.

563
00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:40,680
Speaker 2: One of the cases that I want to make because

564
00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:42,760
Speaker 2: it kept coming up as I was researching these people

565
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:44,480
Speaker 2: and a lot of the other abortionists at the time,

566
00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:48,040
Speaker 2: is especially the feminists and the women involved, was that

567
00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:51,720
Speaker 2: they were fighting for the de medicalization of reproductive health. Basically,

568
00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:55,600
Speaker 2: they were fighting to take reproductive health like birth control, abortion, pregnancy,

569
00:29:55,640 --> 00:30:00,000
Speaker 2: and birth out of the patriarchal field of western medicine

570
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:03,840
Speaker 2: and to have direct control over their own bodies, which

571
00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:07,360
Speaker 2: doesn't necessarily mean like diy at home abortions, but it

572
00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:11,120
Speaker 2: means abortions performed by like competent practitioners, whether they're in

573
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:15,040
Speaker 2: the medical field or not. And there's this argument that

574
00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:17,400
Speaker 2: my friends have made very convincingly to me that I

575
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:20,240
Speaker 2: tend to believe that a lot of the shit that's

576
00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:23,680
Speaker 2: going on in the witch hunts in Europe in medieval

577
00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:26,080
Speaker 2: Europe were basically a lot of it was about, like,

578
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:29,400
Speaker 2: here are these people who are health practitioners who are

579
00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:32,120
Speaker 2: not tied into the sort of male and academic field

580
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:34,880
Speaker 2: of health that we're trying to build, and so we

581
00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:39,240
Speaker 2: should murder them all because we want to be the

582
00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:43,160
Speaker 2: ones controlling everyone's bodies instead of like all of these women.

583
00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:46,120
Speaker 2: And actually a lot of I think gay men and

584
00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:48,560
Speaker 2: other people involved in sort of like swept up in

585
00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:50,440
Speaker 2: the whatever periphery of women. I don't know how to

586
00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:53,200
Speaker 2: describe this. And so it's just it's hard to control

587
00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:55,400
Speaker 2: population in people's bodies if there's all these like wild

588
00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:59,000
Speaker 2: and free practitioners running around helping people control their own bodies.

589
00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:01,600
Speaker 2: And one of the things that's so interesting about this

590
00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:04,640
Speaker 2: argument is that it basically means the medicalization of reproductive

591
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:08,960
Speaker 2: health was a violent process that required mass murder. You

592
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:13,320
Speaker 2: just killed all the practitioners, as you probably guessed anyone

593
00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:14,880
Speaker 2: listening to this. I'm not here to convince you to

594
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:17,520
Speaker 2: be pro choice, because I'm assuming that you are anyone

595
00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:20,000
Speaker 2: who's listening to this, and if you're not, you should.

596
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:22,440
Speaker 2: Maybe you'll get something out of this episode. Maybe listening

597
00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:23,800
Speaker 2: to it would be good for you. Maybe you'll just

598
00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:29,160
Speaker 2: hate me. That's fine. And because I'm not really here

599
00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:31,560
Speaker 2: to like balance the moral weight of abortion today, I

600
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:34,760
Speaker 2: just want to like celebrate heroic, badass women who refuse

601
00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:36,880
Speaker 2: to go along with a society that told them they

602
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:40,640
Speaker 2: couldn't recontrol their own reproductive health. And so I want

603
00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:41,960
Speaker 2: to celebrate the Jain collective.

604
00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:46,080
Speaker 3: Amen, Yay, I'm proud.

605
00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:49,760
Speaker 2: Sometime around nineteen sixty five, there's a lot of arguments

606
00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:51,880
Speaker 2: about exactly what year had happened. I'm actually the person

607
00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:54,040
Speaker 2: who does know is alive. But there's lots of people

608
00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:56,320
Speaker 2: writing lots of different things on the Internet and in

609
00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:59,080
Speaker 2: books because everything doesn't match up with this off anyway.

610
00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:02,040
Speaker 2: In nineteen sixty as, a white Jewish socialist student in

611
00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:04,560
Speaker 2: Chicago named Heather Booth who got a call from her

612
00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:09,040
Speaker 2: friend and her friend was despondent, his sister was pregnant,

613
00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:12,080
Speaker 2: and she didn't know what to do. Abortion was illegal

614
00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:14,760
Speaker 2: in every state in the US at that point, with

615
00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:18,480
Speaker 2: a few medical exceptions here and there, different in different places,

616
00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:22,640
Speaker 2: and Heather hadn't given much thought to abortion access until

617
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:24,280
Speaker 2: that moment, but she was like, all right, I'll see

618
00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:27,040
Speaker 2: what I can do, and basically, just with that willingness

619
00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:29,040
Speaker 2: to step up when someone needed help, she started one

620
00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:32,560
Speaker 2: of the most radical and interesting abortion access groups in history,

621
00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:35,240
Speaker 2: which is a lesson to everyone that sometimes you just

622
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:41,040
Speaker 2: step up when the call to adventure happens. This isn't

623
00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:42,840
Speaker 2: part of my script. I'm griffing badly.

624
00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:49,880
Speaker 3: I like that, but yeah, I agree that we're seeing

625
00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:54,600
Speaker 3: it happen. Unfortunately, as it has become evident that we're

626
00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:57,000
Speaker 3: back into this fight again, we've almost like started over,

627
00:32:57,080 --> 00:32:59,440
Speaker 3: and it feels like we're starting over into this point,

628
00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:03,520
Speaker 3: and funds are being created to make sure that if

629
00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:06,520
Speaker 3: it does happen, if it's outright ban and I know

630
00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:08,440
Speaker 3: we're gonna talk about this probably in a bit, that

631
00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:12,960
Speaker 3: we will have an underground network essentially to continue to

632
00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:15,840
Speaker 3: help the people who need this access. And I know

633
00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:20,280
Speaker 3: it happened in Chile too, and Poland too, where the

634
00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:23,760
Speaker 3: neighboring countries have set up these funds. As Poland has

635
00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:27,720
Speaker 3: passed one of the strictest abortion restrictions, that they're now

636
00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:32,280
Speaker 3: making an underground essentially network for them to get access

637
00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:36,840
Speaker 3: when they need it by giving as many people travel

638
00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:41,920
Speaker 3: reimbursement as well as places to stay to get in

639
00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:44,320
Speaker 3: that plan be all of those things. So yeah, I

640
00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:47,080
Speaker 3: think unfortunately, I'm so excited by talking about this story,

641
00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:49,720
Speaker 3: and I'm so glad you're bringing this up because we

642
00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:52,120
Speaker 3: are repeating history and we may have to look at

643
00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:54,200
Speaker 3: this as an example of all right, y'all, let's get it.

644
00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:56,480
Speaker 3: Let's get it together. We've got to do something and

645
00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:58,000
Speaker 3: become radical essentially.

646
00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:01,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, No, I, what are you talking about? This is

647
00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:04,400
Speaker 2: a history podcast. History doesn't have lessons for the present.

648
00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:06,600
Speaker 3: Right, we don't have to learn history. What.

649
00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:11,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just random that I picked this topic. No,

650
00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:14,040
Speaker 2: I really like and please continue with the how it

651
00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:15,399
Speaker 2: ties into everything, because like.

652
00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:20,400
Speaker 3: You're speaking to my soul, We're going to be what

653
00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:20,960
Speaker 3: I need.

654
00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:25,200
Speaker 2: So good. Okay. So Heather Booth was already a radical

655
00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:28,439
Speaker 2: right in nineteen sixty four, she joined Freedom summer, which

656
00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:31,640
Speaker 2: is when activists flooded to Mississippi to defy the KKK

657
00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:35,000
Speaker 2: and register black voters and set up schools and libraries,

658
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:39,640
Speaker 2: which didn't go smoothly. At least seven people were murdered

659
00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:43,759
Speaker 2: by right wing forces, including black residents and both white

660
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:47,359
Speaker 2: and black civil rights activists from outside the area, and

661
00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:51,840
Speaker 2: something like seventy black homes, churches, and businesses were bombed

662
00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:56,320
Speaker 2: or burned. Eighty activists were beaten, and more than a

663
00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:59,600
Speaker 2: thousand activists ended up arrested, including Heather Booth. During all

664
00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:03,359
Speaker 2: of this, it also wasn't like it's like it wasn't

665
00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:05,600
Speaker 2: perfect and rosy either. I mean, I just described all

666
00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:09,000
Speaker 2: the horrible stuff that happened, but it also led to

667
00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:11,120
Speaker 2: some resentment, at least according to some of the sources

668
00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:12,680
Speaker 2: I read. I suspect that people had a lot of

669
00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:15,799
Speaker 2: different opinions about what happened. Some local black residents felt

670
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:17,720
Speaker 2: that there was a kind of a paternalistic white Northern

671
00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:20,160
Speaker 2: savior thing that had just happened, and they weren't necessarily

672
00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:23,600
Speaker 2: excited about it. But I believe that that is, you know,

673
00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:26,520
Speaker 2: people have very different opinions about things, and it's sort

674
00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:29,880
Speaker 2: of a critical if Complicated chapter of the civil rights movement,

675
00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:32,799
Speaker 2: and Heather Booth was part of it. And I think

676
00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:34,719
Speaker 2: this is also important because it's always important to talk

677
00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:36,600
Speaker 2: about how all of the people fighting for all these

678
00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:39,759
Speaker 2: things always come from intersections or believe in intersectionality, even

679
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:42,359
Speaker 2: if that term didn't exist yet. You know, like I

680
00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:45,200
Speaker 2: did another episode once on abolitionists and realized that all

681
00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:47,640
Speaker 2: the abolitionists were feminists, and all the feminist were abolitionists,

682
00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:49,600
Speaker 2: not universally, but the ones who were cool enough to

683
00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:54,480
Speaker 2: make it into my podcast. And so anyway, so it's

684
00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:58,719
Speaker 2: not coming out of nowhere this, you know. So she's

685
00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:01,799
Speaker 2: back in Chicago after that's and she was helping form

686
00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:04,680
Speaker 2: feminist groups where women talked about the issues facing them,

687
00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:07,360
Speaker 2: a process that a few years later got more widespread

688
00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:09,759
Speaker 2: and be called consciousness raising groups. Was a big part

689
00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:12,560
Speaker 2: of feminist movement in the United States in the sixties

690
00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:16,759
Speaker 2: and seventies. And this is probably how she ended up

691
00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:19,120
Speaker 2: being the person her friend thought to call. But that's

692
00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:21,239
Speaker 2: just constructure. I don't know why a friend called her.

693
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:23,680
Speaker 2: So she gets the call, and she asks around the

694
00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:26,440
Speaker 2: medical community within the civil rights movement, basically being like,

695
00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:28,640
Speaker 2: you know, who can perform an abortion on my friend.

696
00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:30,719
Speaker 2: You know who wants to commit a fello. Knew really

697
00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:34,799
Speaker 2: quick and the doctor she eventually reached, as best as

698
00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:37,240
Speaker 2: I can tell, was a surgeon named T. R. M. Howard,

699
00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:40,800
Speaker 2: who gets left out of this history sometimes and not always,

700
00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:43,279
Speaker 2: which is a shame, because he's a really fucking interesting guy.

701
00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:45,960
Speaker 2: He was more famous as a civil rights leader than

702
00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:47,719
Speaker 2: he was as a doctor. He was one of the

703
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:50,560
Speaker 2: most prominent non socialist voices in the movement. Most of

704
00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:54,520
Speaker 2: the civil rights movement was substantially further left than this guy,

705
00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:57,800
Speaker 2: but you know, he's black man fighting for civil rights.

706
00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:01,839
Speaker 2: I don't know the Emmett Till case, which again I'm

707
00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:03,560
Speaker 2: I'm going to tell you about cool people. I've to

708
00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:06,799
Speaker 2: say about all these horrible things that happened. Emmett Till

709
00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:08,560
Speaker 2: is a fourteen year old black kid who was brutally

710
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:11,080
Speaker 2: murdered by a white mob in Mississippi in nineteen fifty five.

711
00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:13,800
Speaker 2: And during that case, Howard helped run the search for evidence,

712
00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:15,600
Speaker 2: and I believe that's where he became more prominent within

713
00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:19,359
Speaker 2: the civil rights movement. And during that trial, discriminatory gun

714
00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:21,920
Speaker 2: laws wouln't let him own weapons, but he did anyway,

715
00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:24,000
Speaker 2: And he kept a pistol and a secret compartment in

716
00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:26,000
Speaker 2: his car, and he slept with a Thompson machine gun

717
00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:29,400
Speaker 2: at the foot of his bed. And there's this whole

718
00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:31,879
Speaker 2: history that I also will want hopefully one day cover

719
00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:36,479
Speaker 2: about hidden within the civil rights movement. There was actually

720
00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:39,440
Speaker 2: a huge move Even if the political action was largely

721
00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:42,600
Speaker 2: non violent, people weren't people were fine with self defense,

722
00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:47,000
Speaker 2: and a lot of that movement was armed. So he

723
00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:50,879
Speaker 2: was very politically engaged. He runs for Republican. He runs

724
00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:53,000
Speaker 2: as a Republican for Congress in nineteen fifty eight. He

725
00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:55,680
Speaker 2: doesn't win. But he also fought against the criminalization of

726
00:37:55,680 --> 00:37:58,759
Speaker 2: sex work, which rules. And he was a surgeon and

727
00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:01,040
Speaker 2: a legal abortionist, which she considered part of his civil

728
00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:04,280
Speaker 2: rights work, which also just rules. And he was arrested

729
00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:07,400
Speaker 2: nineteen sixty four and nineteen sixty five for providing abortions

730
00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:10,239
Speaker 2: in Chicago, although he was never convicted. So Heather Booth

731
00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:12,480
Speaker 2: reaches out to him and he's like, yeah, bring your

732
00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:17,120
Speaker 2: friend's sister to my office. So word gets around quickly

733
00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:21,880
Speaker 2: that Heather Booth has the hookup with safe abortionists, because obviously,

734
00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:24,239
Speaker 2: regardless of law, people are still getting abortions in the

735
00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:29,239
Speaker 2: United States at this point. Right, Yeah, I'm shocked, but

736
00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:31,480
Speaker 2: it's weird. It's almost like it anyway.

737
00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:34,200
Speaker 4: Right, just because it's outlawed.

738
00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:38,239
Speaker 2: What Yeah, we thought we got rid of that. We

739
00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:39,160
Speaker 2: made a law and.

740
00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:41,200
Speaker 4: It definitely stopped everything for sure.

741
00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:44,120
Speaker 3: It didn't make everything else dangerous for the low socioeconomic

742
00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:47,280
Speaker 3: status and ezy access for the rich people who still

743
00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:48,400
Speaker 3: kept getting abortions.

744
00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:51,759
Speaker 2: What wait, did you read my script? Did I share it?

745
00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:57,239
Speaker 3: We're just in tune. We're I'm saying as we're best friends. Yeah,

746
00:38:57,760 --> 00:38:59,919
Speaker 3: we had coming to remind people I'm their best friend

747
00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:00,440
Speaker 3: and they.

748
00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:07,759
Speaker 2: Don't know the name of your podcast should be your

749
00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:08,800
Speaker 2: best friend tells.

750
00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:09,640
Speaker 3: You about your best friend.

751
00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:14,000
Speaker 4: Obviously that's the perfect title.

752
00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:18,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, totally, we're professional.

753
00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:21,800
Speaker 3: I'd love I have to say that every few hours,

754
00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:24,120
Speaker 3: just to remind myself and others around me. Love.

755
00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:28,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, speaking of being a professional, Margaret's you know what

756
00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:29,920
Speaker 1: time it is?

757
00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:32,120
Speaker 2: Is it time to tell you about how great it

758
00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:36,040
Speaker 2: is to eat potatoes and other healthy food direct from

759
00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:39,120
Speaker 2: gardens instead of and how everyone should grow their own

760
00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:41,719
Speaker 2: food and how This podcast is sponsored by the concept

761
00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:47,960
Speaker 2: of self reliance and inter reliance among healthy communities, and

762
00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:50,279
Speaker 2: no other sponsors at all, except for a few that

763
00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:55,280
Speaker 2: might slip in after I stopped talking. Yes, here's some ads,

764
00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:02,759
Speaker 2: and we're back. I hope you enjoyed those ads. I

765
00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:04,759
Speaker 2: hope all of them were for really positive things and

766
00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:07,280
Speaker 2: none of them were for bad things, which is definitely

767
00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:08,920
Speaker 2: the way that advertising works.

768
00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:11,760
Speaker 3: I was gonna say, if they're not, it's Robert Evans' fault.

769
00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:13,760
Speaker 3: I can say that, Yes, that's true.

770
00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:14,960
Speaker 2: Everything is Robert.

771
00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:17,719
Speaker 3: Anything you don't like is Robert's fault. That's how I

772
00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:18,640
Speaker 3: live my life.

773
00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:22,359
Speaker 2: That's true. Though. Robert is in charge of making all

774
00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:25,160
Speaker 2: the decisions about advertising for the network, and if you

775
00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:28,560
Speaker 2: have problems with it, you should hit him up on Twitter.

776
00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:32,239
Speaker 3: Director of Tweets, and your emails to him please thank

777
00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:33,920
Speaker 3: you very much, him, not me, thank you.

778
00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:37,680
Speaker 1: All right.

779
00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:40,560
Speaker 2: So it's hard to keep stats on illegal shit. For

780
00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:43,120
Speaker 2: some weird reason, people don't like necessarily always telling the

781
00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:47,000
Speaker 2: government when they do illegal shit. But one nineteen fifty

782
00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:50,480
Speaker 2: five study estimated that anywhere between two hundred thousand and

783
00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:53,560
Speaker 2: a one million two hundred thousand abortions were happening every

784
00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:56,640
Speaker 2: year in the United States in nineteen fifty five, Around

785
00:40:56,719 --> 00:41:01,360
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy the which is still three years before v Wade.

786
00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:03,920
Speaker 2: The claimed number is more like one to two million,

787
00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:08,640
Speaker 2: but who knows. Abortions are happening. Rich women get the

788
00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:11,759
Speaker 2: hookup from their private doctors, or they fly to the UK,

789
00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:16,160
Speaker 2: where abortion law is generally more lenient, and for less

790
00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:19,080
Speaker 2: privileged folks it's a lot less rosy. The underground abortion

791
00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:21,720
Speaker 2: scene was like a mixed match of like sketchy grifters

792
00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:24,560
Speaker 2: and then well meaning and competent doctors, but you didn't

793
00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:27,719
Speaker 2: necessarily have a way to determine which one you're gonna get.

794
00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:32,000
Speaker 2: And almost all of them are men, and a lot

795
00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:35,359
Speaker 2: of them are also connected to organized crime, including some

796
00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:37,120
Speaker 2: of the good ones. I think some of the good

797
00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:40,480
Speaker 2: ones were just like outright criminals attached to organized crime.

798
00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:44,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was really interesting to see that layer, as

799
00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:52,120
Speaker 3: when you start like finding out these backgrounds, you're like wow, wow, okay, okayafia, okay.

800
00:41:52,239 --> 00:41:54,480
Speaker 2: Yeah. They're gonna come up a couple of times in

801
00:41:54,520 --> 00:41:59,280
Speaker 2: this story intrigue, although not as much as they could

802
00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:02,080
Speaker 2: because some of the people involved in this are all

803
00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:04,600
Speaker 2: still alive, right, and so I'm not trying to make

804
00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:06,160
Speaker 2: conjectures about certain things.

805
00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:09,120
Speaker 4: Well, let's not in danger anybody today.

806
00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:13,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, okay. So as an interesting note, Chicago actually

807
00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:15,560
Speaker 2: had one of the only women doctors that I found

808
00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:18,040
Speaker 2: when I was looking at women abortionists be pre Jaine.

809
00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:22,760
Speaker 2: I'm sure there were more, but doctor Josephine Gabler performed

810
00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:25,960
Speaker 2: more than eighteen thousand abortions throughout the nineteen thirties, and

811
00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:28,239
Speaker 2: her patients were referred to her from almost two hundred

812
00:42:28,239 --> 00:42:31,160
Speaker 2: different medical facilities. And basically she would pay a kickback

813
00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:34,000
Speaker 2: to all the medical facilities that would send her patients.

814
00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:38,399
Speaker 2: They would get a quarter of the abortion fee because

815
00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:41,080
Speaker 2: everything is sketchy in crime Land. But she was also

816
00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:44,200
Speaker 2: a I believe, a safe and competent abortionist. And then

817
00:42:44,239 --> 00:42:47,080
Speaker 2: in nineteen forty she sold her practice to her receptionist,

818
00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:49,640
Speaker 2: Adam Martin, and she takes over the practice, but she

819
00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:52,719
Speaker 2: actually hires outside practitioners to perform the actual abortions because

820
00:42:52,719 --> 00:42:56,799
Speaker 2: she's a receptionist, not a surgeon or whatever. But in

821
00:42:56,840 --> 00:42:59,120
Speaker 2: the nineteen forties and fifties, abortion law started being in

822
00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:02,120
Speaker 2: forced more strenuous. It was always illegal, but it was

823
00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:04,480
Speaker 2: like kind of a lot of times in a lot

824
00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:06,240
Speaker 2: of places, I was like, well, if you don't kill anyone.

825
00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:09,680
Speaker 2: We aren't necessarily going to do anything. But then in

826
00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:14,160
Speaker 2: nineteen forties, nineteen fifties, unfortunately, right when this receptionist takes over,

827
00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:19,600
Speaker 2: abortion law gets enforced more strenuously, and which of course

828
00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:24,000
Speaker 2: shudders the safest abortion clinics in the country and does

829
00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:28,880
Speaker 2: nothing to stop women from meeting abortions. So Heather Booth

830
00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:31,600
Speaker 2: is compiling all the names of the reasonable providers that

831
00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:34,040
Speaker 2: she can run across, basically keeping track of who could

832
00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:36,960
Speaker 2: be trusted to be safe, both like kind of legally safe,

833
00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:39,840
Speaker 2: like I mean, it's illegal, but you know, to be careful,

834
00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:42,399
Speaker 2: also to be medically safe, and then also to be

835
00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:45,320
Speaker 2: sexually safe, because there was a whole problem with abortion

836
00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:49,840
Speaker 2: providers creeping on the patients in their care, which obviously

837
00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:57,040
Speaker 2: legalization didn't stop. But you know, that's why, even when

838
00:43:57,040 --> 00:44:00,080
Speaker 2: things are legal, we still need people to advocate for us.

839
00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:03,440
Speaker 2: And so more and more people start coming to her

840
00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:06,919
Speaker 2: for referrals, but she starts getting busier. In nineteen sixty seven,

841
00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:09,040
Speaker 2: she marries Paul Booth, who's an activist she met at

842
00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:11,560
Speaker 2: a sit in demonstration against the draft in the Vietnam War.

843
00:44:11,560 --> 00:44:14,640
Speaker 2: Because again everything's intersectional, He went on to help found

844
00:44:14,640 --> 00:44:18,400
Speaker 2: Students for Democratic Society in nineteen sixty nine. By nineteen

845
00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:20,919
Speaker 2: sixty nine, they had two kids, and she had a job,

846
00:44:20,960 --> 00:44:22,840
Speaker 2: and she was in grad school and she couldn't handle

847
00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:26,880
Speaker 2: running like underground crime ring all by herself, so she

848
00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:28,680
Speaker 2: called up a bunch of other activists women and got

849
00:44:28,719 --> 00:44:30,759
Speaker 2: them in on her underground crime ring. And that's how

850
00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:34,560
Speaker 2: Jane started. And Jane wasn't called Jane. It was the

851
00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:37,040
Speaker 2: not quite as bad as a Soviet name, but it

852
00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:39,160
Speaker 2: was the Abortion Council in Service of the Chicago Women's

853
00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:42,440
Speaker 2: Liberation Union a little bit shorter, yeah, And they were like,

854
00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:45,840
Speaker 2: you know, just let's just call it Jane. They mostly

855
00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:50,319
Speaker 2: call it the Service within their own ranks, apparently, but

856
00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:51,880
Speaker 2: they picked Jane to be like kind of like the

857
00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:54,680
Speaker 2: every woman name, right, like you know, we're all Jane

858
00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:59,359
Speaker 2: or whatever, like Jane Doe. And history remembers that it's

859
00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:01,239
Speaker 2: the Jane collect which is a better name than the

860
00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:03,640
Speaker 2: Abortion Council the Service of the Chicago Women's Libration Union.

861
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:07,720
Speaker 3: Yes, it's a cooler name. It definitely like rings like, oh,

862
00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:11,640
Speaker 3: this is a good mystery novel, let's go oh good point.

863
00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:15,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, No, totally yeah, and then they get like the

864
00:45:15,239 --> 00:45:17,000
Speaker 2: sense of intrigue in your life. And if you're going

865
00:45:17,080 --> 00:45:19,360
Speaker 2: to go do a crime, right, you should get some

866
00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:21,359
Speaker 2: intrigue in your life out of it. It shouldn't be like

867
00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:24,279
Speaker 2: the cold like Bureau of Crime where you like go

868
00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:26,480
Speaker 2: in and they're like, please fill out a form for

869
00:45:26,520 --> 00:45:28,360
Speaker 2: the crime you would like to commit and you're like,

870
00:45:28,440 --> 00:45:30,239
Speaker 2: uh huh. They're like, we need it in triplicate. No,

871
00:45:30,320 --> 00:45:32,640
Speaker 2: it should be fucking like exciting.

872
00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:35,680
Speaker 3: The collective. I mean, come on, is the Jain Collective.

873
00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:40,799
Speaker 3: So obviously they're badass espionage parts to this somehow, in

874
00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:44,040
Speaker 3: like secret coded languages and all that.

875
00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:44,680
Speaker 2: Kind of stuff.

876
00:45:44,840 --> 00:45:46,280
Speaker 4: Come on, you gotta be good.

877
00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:48,759
Speaker 2: I can't wait till we can talk about more of

878
00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:52,320
Speaker 2: the underground parts of the history. But I am not wishing.

879
00:45:53,960 --> 00:45:59,080
Speaker 2: I wouldn't wish them all along happy lives. So okay,

880
00:45:59,080 --> 00:46:01,080
Speaker 2: So they spend months landing out the whole thing before

881
00:46:01,080 --> 00:46:02,680
Speaker 2: they launch. They're trying to be really careful with their

882
00:46:02,719 --> 00:46:05,839
Speaker 2: crime ring they and also it's not just because it's crime.

883
00:46:05,880 --> 00:46:08,040
Speaker 2: They actually they're doing this because they care, right, And

884
00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:09,680
Speaker 2: so they're like, all right, what are we going to

885
00:46:09,719 --> 00:46:12,000
Speaker 2: do if one of our patients has a medical emergency.

886
00:46:12,120 --> 00:46:13,680
Speaker 2: What are we going to do if someone dies? What

887
00:46:13,719 --> 00:46:15,240
Speaker 2: are we going to do if one of us is arrested?

888
00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:16,239
Speaker 2: What are we going to do if one of our

889
00:46:16,280 --> 00:46:19,120
Speaker 2: doctors is arrested. They like mapped all this out for months.

890
00:46:19,200 --> 00:46:21,920
Speaker 2: They mapped it all very carefully, and then they opened

891
00:46:22,440 --> 00:46:24,880
Speaker 2: and they decided to keep minimal records and have different

892
00:46:24,920 --> 00:46:29,000
Speaker 2: volunteers handle patient contact and doctor contact because again crime.

893
00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:32,440
Speaker 2: And they also got an answering machine, which is like

894
00:46:32,440 --> 00:46:34,200
Speaker 2: a weird It's only notable to me because it's like

895
00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:35,960
Speaker 2: a nice visual detail because I think at the time

896
00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:38,719
Speaker 2: it's like a huge reel to reel machine. And then

897
00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:40,720
Speaker 2: and then they put up ads in all the student

898
00:46:40,719 --> 00:46:43,680
Speaker 2: and underground newspapers in Chicago and they say pregnant don't

899
00:46:43,719 --> 00:46:45,080
Speaker 2: want to be called Jane.

900
00:46:46,239 --> 00:46:47,920
Speaker 4: It's so snazzy.

901
00:46:48,040 --> 00:46:50,520
Speaker 3: I like it, I know, I know, like it was

902
00:46:50,560 --> 00:46:51,320
Speaker 3: a whole system.

903
00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:53,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I love it.

904
00:46:53,600 --> 00:46:55,560
Speaker 3: It's kind of like they're trying to if you do

905
00:46:55,640 --> 00:46:57,640
Speaker 3: know during war times, I guess they were doing the

906
00:46:57,760 --> 00:47:01,240
Speaker 3: messages telegrams and trying to decode they it was this level.

907
00:47:01,440 --> 00:47:02,879
Speaker 4: It is phenomenal.

908
00:47:03,400 --> 00:47:06,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, and we will hopefully never need it again. But

909
00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:09,080
Speaker 2: it's an interesting anecdote about history.

910
00:47:10,760 --> 00:47:11,600
Speaker 4: It'll make me cry.

911
00:47:12,560 --> 00:47:17,400
Speaker 2: Come on, Yeah, Okay, So when they first started, they

912
00:47:17,400 --> 00:47:19,360
Speaker 2: worked with a bunch of different abortionists, and slowly they

913
00:47:19,400 --> 00:47:23,360
Speaker 2: started using one guy more and more. And some accounts

914
00:47:23,360 --> 00:47:26,040
Speaker 2: call him Nick and some accounts call him Mike, And

915
00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:28,800
Speaker 2: all of the accounts put his name in like quotes.

916
00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:30,480
Speaker 2: A gonna say they put in air quotes. But that's

917
00:47:30,520 --> 00:47:32,160
Speaker 2: what I'm doing, is the air quotes. You often see

918
00:47:32,160 --> 00:47:37,319
Speaker 2: it because Nick Mike is a crime guy, Like that's

919
00:47:37,320 --> 00:47:39,799
Speaker 2: his thing, through and through. Like one account just refers

920
00:47:39,800 --> 00:47:41,479
Speaker 2: to him as like a con man over and over again.

921
00:47:41,480 --> 00:47:45,040
Speaker 2: But it's a very positive account about like their con man, right.

922
00:47:45,840 --> 00:47:48,799
Speaker 2: And some accounts say he was a mafia abortionist, and

923
00:47:48,840 --> 00:47:50,879
Speaker 2: some accounts say he was independent and on the run

924
00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:54,359
Speaker 2: from both cops and the mafia. I straight up don't

925
00:47:54,360 --> 00:47:55,759
Speaker 2: know to believe if you've heard one way or the other,

926
00:47:55,800 --> 00:47:56,480
Speaker 2: I'd be curious.

927
00:47:56,520 --> 00:47:59,719
Speaker 3: But yeah, I did hear a link to the mafia

928
00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:01,839
Speaker 3: point in time. But again, like that's kind of like,

929
00:48:02,160 --> 00:48:04,480
Speaker 3: this doesn't make me make it more intriguing that this

930
00:48:04,560 --> 00:48:07,160
Speaker 3: is what's happened, or doesn't make it more sinister.

931
00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:09,880
Speaker 2: Right, Well, what's going to make it both more intriguing

932
00:48:09,920 --> 00:48:12,160
Speaker 2: and sinister, is that at least one account wants you

933
00:48:12,239 --> 00:48:14,680
Speaker 2: to know that Nick Mike is the sexiest man alive.

934
00:48:15,840 --> 00:48:19,200
Speaker 3: Oh wait wait, I missed that. As much research as

935
00:48:19,200 --> 00:48:21,840
Speaker 3: I've done and trying to get this stuff that I

936
00:48:21,920 --> 00:48:22,760
Speaker 3: did not see.

937
00:48:22,840 --> 00:48:24,720
Speaker 4: So now like, well, I gotta have a picture.

938
00:48:24,880 --> 00:48:28,120
Speaker 3: Come on, but are quoto?

939
00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:30,880
Speaker 2: No, I don't think there's pictures of quote. I don't know.

940
00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:33,319
Speaker 4: We don't actually have an identity for him.

941
00:48:34,000 --> 00:48:36,400
Speaker 1: He wasn't around, but they wanted to know that he

942
00:48:36,640 --> 00:48:37,960
Speaker 1: is a babe.

943
00:48:38,200 --> 00:48:42,160
Speaker 5: Like, I need to know who said this? So Jane

944
00:48:42,160 --> 00:48:44,120
Speaker 5: collective something, it was one of the Jaine collective. I

945
00:48:44,120 --> 00:48:46,000
Speaker 5: can't remember off the top of my head. It wasn't Jodi,

946
00:48:46,080 --> 00:48:47,960
Speaker 5: because it was someone who would go and meet with him,

947
00:48:48,680 --> 00:48:50,680
Speaker 5: and it's in one of her accounts. It's from an interview.

948
00:48:50,760 --> 00:48:53,440
Speaker 2: I think it's in the There's a zine that came

949
00:48:53,440 --> 00:48:55,319
Speaker 2: out in like two thousand and three or four called

950
00:48:55,400 --> 00:48:58,080
Speaker 2: Jane and that has a lot of the interviews and shit,

951
00:48:58,280 --> 00:48:59,840
Speaker 2: and that was where I pulled the sexiest man a

952
00:48:59,840 --> 00:49:02,200
Speaker 2: life I've part from and that that's studies in my memory.

953
00:49:02,200 --> 00:49:05,840
Speaker 2: You know, that is amazing yeah, I'm always looking for

954
00:49:05,880 --> 00:49:09,279
Speaker 2: the subtext, you know, like like who's who's fucking who?

955
00:49:09,360 --> 00:49:13,439
Speaker 3: And like this has become a drug, Like not only

956
00:49:13,440 --> 00:49:15,400
Speaker 3: has it become like an espionage things, it's kind of

957
00:49:15,440 --> 00:49:18,640
Speaker 3: becoming a soap opera or something along those lines for

958
00:49:18,719 --> 00:49:21,000
Speaker 3: someone to have to put that narrative in, Like he's

959
00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:23,920
Speaker 3: one of the sexiest men. I'm like, how sexy I

960
00:49:24,160 --> 00:49:26,680
Speaker 3: have I have a feeling because it was the sexies seventies.

961
00:49:26,800 --> 00:49:28,960
Speaker 3: He had the mustache, I know he did. He had

962
00:49:28,960 --> 00:49:30,320
Speaker 3: to have the mustache right, totally.

963
00:49:30,400 --> 00:49:33,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, probably, and long hair, you know, like but not

964
00:49:34,080 --> 00:49:37,080
Speaker 2: like full hippie long hair, just like kind of a yeah.

965
00:49:37,840 --> 00:49:39,960
Speaker 2: I was describing this to one of my friends and

966
00:49:40,080 --> 00:49:42,319
Speaker 2: they were like, oh, he probably had like a leather

967
00:49:42,440 --> 00:49:45,880
Speaker 2: jacket and said chow a lot, you know, And I'm

968
00:49:45,880 --> 00:49:48,640
Speaker 2: not convinced by the chow part. I'm not convinced. I

969
00:49:48,640 --> 00:49:49,960
Speaker 2: think my friend had been watching a lot of is

970
00:49:50,040 --> 00:49:51,680
Speaker 2: Eddie Izzard.

971
00:49:51,280 --> 00:49:54,080
Speaker 3: That's amazing And that turned out to I really wish

972
00:49:54,280 --> 00:49:57,160
Speaker 3: I don't want like idy like real because I don't

973
00:49:57,160 --> 00:49:59,600
Speaker 3: want to focus on him because he and himself was whatever.

974
00:49:59,680 --> 00:50:02,680
Speaker 3: But the fact that this was like a narrative around

975
00:50:02,800 --> 00:50:03,920
Speaker 3: him is phenomenal.

976
00:50:04,160 --> 00:50:08,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally. And when they would go meet him, at

977
00:50:08,760 --> 00:50:10,000
Speaker 2: least for a while, I don't know if he stayed

978
00:50:10,040 --> 00:50:11,680
Speaker 2: this way all the time. He would only meet one

979
00:50:11,760 --> 00:50:15,239
Speaker 2: Jane at a time because theoretically he wanted to avoid

980
00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:17,800
Speaker 2: conspiracy charges, and if you have three or more people

981
00:50:18,160 --> 00:50:20,800
Speaker 2: talking about a crime, then he can get conspiracy charges.

982
00:50:21,160 --> 00:50:23,000
Speaker 2: And I'm not trying to say that this is the

983
00:50:23,000 --> 00:50:25,400
Speaker 2: way you successfully avoid conspiracy charges is you never let

984
00:50:25,440 --> 00:50:26,840
Speaker 2: more than one other person in the room at the

985
00:50:26,880 --> 00:50:30,680
Speaker 2: same time. But theoretically that was what his whole thing was.

986
00:50:30,960 --> 00:50:33,520
Speaker 2: And so they liked their new con man, and they

987
00:50:33,520 --> 00:50:36,479
Speaker 2: started working more or less exclusively with him, and they would,

988
00:50:36,520 --> 00:50:38,560
Speaker 2: I guess, pick him up the airport driving motel and

989
00:50:38,560 --> 00:50:41,600
Speaker 2: they would bring him work. He wanted slightly less pay

990
00:50:41,600 --> 00:50:43,759
Speaker 2: than most of the other abortionists, but he still wasn't

991
00:50:43,800 --> 00:50:46,000
Speaker 2: cheap and he was in it for the money. Most

992
00:50:46,040 --> 00:50:48,080
Speaker 2: abortions at the time wereunt six hundred dollars to one

993
00:50:48,080 --> 00:50:51,720
Speaker 2: thousand dollars, which is four to seven thousand dollars into

994
00:50:51,760 --> 00:50:54,520
Speaker 2: twenty twenty two. Jane was able to offer them for

995
00:50:54,560 --> 00:50:56,640
Speaker 2: five hundred at the start, which is and then after

996
00:50:56,640 --> 00:50:59,520
Speaker 2: about five or six full price abortions. Nick Mike would

997
00:50:59,520 --> 00:51:04,520
Speaker 2: do all for cheaper, and one of the founders, Jody Howard, was.

998
00:51:04,960 --> 00:51:07,440
Speaker 1: Nick Mike is still such a funny thing to me,

999
00:51:07,800 --> 00:51:09,920
Speaker 1: and that the only thing we know about them is

1000
00:51:09,960 --> 00:51:10,719
Speaker 1: that they were hot.

1001
00:51:11,560 --> 00:51:16,279
Speaker 3: Yeah, totally, that's all you need to know. Come on, Mike, Nick,

1002
00:51:16,320 --> 00:51:22,320
Speaker 3: Mike and middle name totally.

1003
00:51:23,120 --> 00:51:26,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, he was. He never actually lied about anything.

1004
00:51:26,280 --> 00:51:31,319
Speaker 2: He just his name was Nick, last name Mike, and

1005
00:51:31,400 --> 00:51:33,840
Speaker 2: the first names.

1006
00:51:33,920 --> 00:51:41,719
Speaker 3: Okay, this one mysterious man anyway, going on.

1007
00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:45,560
Speaker 2: Okay, So, so one of the founders, Jody Howard, was

1008
00:51:45,600 --> 00:51:47,560
Speaker 2: particularly close with Nick Mike. And there's some kind of

1009
00:51:47,560 --> 00:51:49,200
Speaker 2: like subtext in what I read. But again, I'm not

1010
00:51:49,200 --> 00:51:51,720
Speaker 2: trying to make assumptions because people might still be alive.

1011
00:51:52,000 --> 00:51:54,600
Speaker 2: But but Jody decided, and this actually makes a lot

1012
00:51:54,600 --> 00:51:56,239
Speaker 2: of sense, right, She was like, there needs to be

1013
00:51:56,280 --> 00:51:59,200
Speaker 2: a woman in the room as you're performing these abortions,

1014
00:51:59,360 --> 00:52:01,719
Speaker 2: and so she started insisting, and then started insisting that

1015
00:52:01,760 --> 00:52:06,759
Speaker 2: he apprenticed her and her own Jody Howard's own entry

1016
00:52:06,760 --> 00:52:08,960
Speaker 2: into the movement was kind of interesting. She had had

1017
00:52:09,000 --> 00:52:11,239
Speaker 2: two kids in lymphatic cancer, and she was pregnant for

1018
00:52:11,239 --> 00:52:13,720
Speaker 2: a third time, and she knew that childbirth would dislikely

1019
00:52:13,760 --> 00:52:16,640
Speaker 2: as not kill her, and doctors still wouldn't let her

1020
00:52:16,680 --> 00:52:18,799
Speaker 2: get an abortion. Theoretically, the law at the time was

1021
00:52:18,800 --> 00:52:21,440
Speaker 2: if childbirth would kill, you can get an abortion. So

1022
00:52:22,400 --> 00:52:24,240
Speaker 2: the only way she felt like she could take matters

1023
00:52:24,239 --> 00:52:26,080
Speaker 2: into her own hands about this is she basically like,

1024
00:52:26,160 --> 00:52:29,680
Speaker 2: give me an abortion or I'll kill myself, and they

1025
00:52:29,680 --> 00:52:32,080
Speaker 2: were like, okay, you can have an abortion now, And

1026
00:52:32,800 --> 00:52:35,600
Speaker 2: which is just a like how cruel is a law

1027
00:52:36,040 --> 00:52:37,600
Speaker 2: that the only way that you can control your own

1028
00:52:37,600 --> 00:52:42,120
Speaker 2: body is by like threatening to end your own life.

1029
00:52:42,520 --> 00:52:46,960
Speaker 2: So she became an abortion access crusader, imagine that. And

1030
00:52:47,000 --> 00:52:48,799
Speaker 2: she figured out, she was the first one to figure out,

1031
00:52:48,920 --> 00:52:51,719
Speaker 2: apparently kind of quickly, that handsome man crime doct Nick

1032
00:52:51,760 --> 00:52:55,040
Speaker 2: Mike wasn't a doctor. He had a lot of things

1033
00:52:55,040 --> 00:52:56,879
Speaker 2: going for him, but a medical license was not one

1034
00:52:56,880 --> 00:52:59,719
Speaker 2: of the things he had going for him, and she

1035
00:52:59,800 --> 00:53:00,080
Speaker 2: knew it.

1036
00:53:01,680 --> 00:53:05,719
Speaker 1: So once again, only thing that's actually accurate about Nick

1037
00:53:05,800 --> 00:53:07,120
Speaker 1: Mike is hot.

1038
00:53:07,760 --> 00:53:13,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, possibly that was by one It is it is

1039
00:53:13,400 --> 00:53:15,600
Speaker 3: it is now in stone.

1040
00:53:16,160 --> 00:53:19,120
Speaker 2: Well, if one person thinks you're sexy, you're sexy, you know.

1041
00:53:19,440 --> 00:53:23,200
Speaker 3: Okay, oh god, anyway, keep going.

1042
00:53:23,719 --> 00:53:24,080
Speaker 1: All right?

1043
00:53:24,440 --> 00:53:26,279
Speaker 2: So she decides not to tell anyone at first, because

1044
00:53:26,280 --> 00:53:28,359
Speaker 2: she's like, everyone's going to freak the fuck out. And

1045
00:53:28,400 --> 00:53:30,880
Speaker 2: she's like also like, but if he can learn it,

1046
00:53:30,880 --> 00:53:33,200
Speaker 2: and he's not a doctor, so can I. I'm not

1047
00:53:33,280 --> 00:53:37,560
Speaker 2: a doctor, And so he made him teach her. And

1048
00:53:37,560 --> 00:53:39,480
Speaker 2: and at first Nick Mike is working out of motels,

1049
00:53:39,640 --> 00:53:41,640
Speaker 2: but then one day an angry husband comes and like

1050
00:53:41,719 --> 00:53:44,080
Speaker 2: is banging on the motel room door, and they realized

1051
00:53:44,080 --> 00:53:46,719
Speaker 2: they had to step up their security. So in order

1052
00:53:46,760 --> 00:53:50,120
Speaker 2: to make it all more mystery novel crime novel, they

1053
00:53:50,120 --> 00:53:52,759
Speaker 2: start renting apartments all over the city and they need

1054
00:53:52,800 --> 00:53:55,160
Speaker 2: to at any given time. First, they have the front

1055
00:53:55,719 --> 00:53:58,520
Speaker 2: where all the patients come for counseling and consultation. It's

1056
00:53:59,239 --> 00:54:01,440
Speaker 2: where it's where they show up on the day of

1057
00:54:01,480 --> 00:54:04,440
Speaker 2: the abortion, and they're encouraged to bring loved ones for support.

1058
00:54:04,920 --> 00:54:08,120
Speaker 2: And of course most people who can who get abortions

1059
00:54:08,160 --> 00:54:11,520
Speaker 2: already have children, and so they provided childcare at the

1060
00:54:11,520 --> 00:54:14,800
Speaker 2: front as well. And working at the front was therefore

1061
00:54:14,840 --> 00:54:17,440
Speaker 2: this like really demanding job. You were a counselor, you

1062
00:54:17,480 --> 00:54:20,080
Speaker 2: were a babysitter, and you were also like an entertainer.

1063
00:54:20,120 --> 00:54:22,480
Speaker 2: You were passing out like snacks and tea and soda

1064
00:54:22,520 --> 00:54:26,120
Speaker 2: and shit like anxious boyfriends and probably girlfriends and siblings

1065
00:54:26,160 --> 00:54:28,000
Speaker 2: and all that shit, you know. And then you had

1066
00:54:28,040 --> 00:54:30,120
Speaker 2: the place that was the front night of the place.

1067
00:54:31,440 --> 00:54:33,359
Speaker 2: It's still better than the Soviet names. Actually, there's also

1068
00:54:33,400 --> 00:54:35,040
Speaker 2: kind of sound like anyway, whatever.

1069
00:54:35,920 --> 00:54:38,520
Speaker 3: It looks sounds very coded and wonderfully good.

1070
00:54:39,760 --> 00:54:42,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally. And so the place is the apartment where

1071
00:54:42,760 --> 00:54:44,680
Speaker 2: the abortion is actually performed on a bed with like

1072
00:54:44,719 --> 00:54:48,600
Speaker 2: plastic and cloth sheets down. And they worked hard to

1073
00:54:48,600 --> 00:54:51,440
Speaker 2: make the whole experiences like on medical as possible. They

1074
00:54:51,719 --> 00:54:55,040
Speaker 2: work to be relaxing and inviting and communicate with people

1075
00:54:55,080 --> 00:54:57,239
Speaker 2: about what's going on. Some of the reports I was

1076
00:54:57,280 --> 00:54:59,359
Speaker 2: reading and say, this doesn't always work. Sometimes they were like, hey,

1077
00:54:59,360 --> 00:55:01,640
Speaker 2: I'm like I'm your new best friend, you know, and

1078
00:55:01,640 --> 00:55:03,920
Speaker 2: they're like trying to be really nice. And then and

1079
00:55:03,960 --> 00:55:05,520
Speaker 2: sometimes they're like, no, this is the worst day in

1080
00:55:05,560 --> 00:55:07,680
Speaker 2: my life. Let's get this fucking over with me, you know.

1081
00:55:07,760 --> 00:55:11,240
Speaker 2: And other times they were like, you know, friendly and stuff.

1082
00:55:11,719 --> 00:55:14,239
Speaker 2: Then there are the drivers who took people from one

1083
00:55:14,239 --> 00:55:16,520
Speaker 2: place to the other. They rather they took people from

1084
00:55:16,560 --> 00:55:18,200
Speaker 2: the front to the place and from the place to

1085
00:55:18,239 --> 00:55:21,680
Speaker 2: the front. And these were in somewhat short supply, apparently

1086
00:55:21,719 --> 00:55:24,080
Speaker 2: because most of the Janes were students at the University

1087
00:55:24,080 --> 00:55:27,359
Speaker 2: of Chicago and so, and a lot of them come

1088
00:55:27,400 --> 00:55:30,680
Speaker 2: from New York City where people just didn't have driver's licenses,

1089
00:55:31,000 --> 00:55:34,759
Speaker 2: so the few drivers with driver's licenses were basically it's

1090
00:55:34,800 --> 00:55:36,600
Speaker 2: like all of the jobs that any of the Janes

1091
00:55:36,640 --> 00:55:40,080
Speaker 2: were doing were incredibly important, not just the abortionists, you know.

1092
00:55:40,760 --> 00:55:44,279
Speaker 2: And they performed over eleven thousand abortions, and like a

1093
00:55:44,400 --> 00:55:47,560
Speaker 2: barely three year span, it was like nineteen sixty nine

1094
00:55:47,600 --> 00:55:50,839
Speaker 2: to nineteen seventy three. A later obsidstrician looking at their

1095
00:55:50,880 --> 00:55:53,160
Speaker 2: record suggested it was as safe as any above ground

1096
00:55:53,239 --> 00:55:57,839
Speaker 2: legal clinic. They never had a patient die, at least

1097
00:55:57,880 --> 00:55:59,799
Speaker 2: not one that they performed an abortion on. They did

1098
00:55:59,800 --> 00:56:02,440
Speaker 2: have one time where a woman came in in bad shape.

1099
00:56:02,760 --> 00:56:05,359
Speaker 2: She tried and failed to enter pregnancy on her own

1100
00:56:05,400 --> 00:56:10,359
Speaker 2: a few different ways because making things illegals really fucked up, right,

1101
00:56:10,640 --> 00:56:14,040
Speaker 2: and she had a really severe infection. Jane determined it

1102
00:56:14,080 --> 00:56:16,360
Speaker 2: wasn't safe to operate on her, and so they insisted

1103
00:56:16,400 --> 00:56:18,759
Speaker 2: she'd go to the hospital, and she didn't. She went

1104
00:56:18,800 --> 00:56:22,960
Speaker 2: home instead. And I kind of assume, I mean, I

1105
00:56:22,960 --> 00:56:24,520
Speaker 2: feel like we've all been there, or we've been like

1106
00:56:24,560 --> 00:56:27,880
Speaker 2: someone's like you really didn't see a doctor and you're like, doctor, well,

1107
00:56:27,880 --> 00:56:29,680
Speaker 2: I look like a millionaire, you know.

1108
00:56:30,360 --> 00:56:30,640
Speaker 1: I mean.

1109
00:56:30,719 --> 00:56:33,920
Speaker 3: And also again the stigma and the judgments and if

1110
00:56:33,960 --> 00:56:36,480
Speaker 3: she was trying, if this person was trying to do

1111
00:56:36,600 --> 00:56:41,120
Speaker 3: a self abortion, that in itself told tells you how

1112
00:56:41,160 --> 00:56:43,719
Speaker 3: a dire of a situation they felt they were in

1113
00:56:44,440 --> 00:56:46,680
Speaker 3: and felt like they had to do something whatever they could,

1114
00:56:46,760 --> 00:56:49,520
Speaker 3: and it killed them, which is what that situation leads to.

1115
00:56:49,719 --> 00:56:53,960
Speaker 3: When you really feel whatever circumstance, whether it's trying to

1116
00:56:54,000 --> 00:56:57,799
Speaker 3: not be disapproved by the parents or the family, or

1117
00:56:58,040 --> 00:57:01,560
Speaker 3: society or whatever, having the level of being alone and

1118
00:57:01,600 --> 00:57:04,520
Speaker 3: trying to do whatever you can no matter the cost,

1119
00:57:05,120 --> 00:57:08,160
Speaker 3: and then not realizing there is another option until.

1120
00:57:07,960 --> 00:57:08,600
Speaker 4: It's too late.

1121
00:57:08,719 --> 00:57:11,879
Speaker 3: That's that whole level in itself that just breaks your

1122
00:57:11,880 --> 00:57:14,720
Speaker 3: heart in this whole situation. But I love the setup

1123
00:57:14,840 --> 00:57:17,560
Speaker 3: about the front and the place as you were talking about,

1124
00:57:17,560 --> 00:57:21,240
Speaker 3: because as I was reading about these things, the idea

1125
00:57:21,480 --> 00:57:24,640
Speaker 3: going to a guidecologist going to get your yearly check

1126
00:57:24,720 --> 00:57:27,920
Speaker 3: up is frightening. Going to a doctor in general is

1127
00:57:28,120 --> 00:57:30,200
Speaker 3: frightening as hell to me. It's probably one of those

1128
00:57:30,240 --> 00:57:32,440
Speaker 3: anxiety moments of like, oh my god, why do I

1129
00:57:32,480 --> 00:57:34,480
Speaker 3: have to be here and to know that you're going

1130
00:57:34,520 --> 00:57:36,840
Speaker 3: to do something that seems that you've been told is

1131
00:57:36,840 --> 00:57:40,200
Speaker 3: wrong a B. So you have all of this guilt

1132
00:57:40,880 --> 00:57:43,720
Speaker 3: on top of that. Whatever it may be, whatever the

1133
00:57:43,760 --> 00:57:46,160
Speaker 3: situation is, and we don't know the outlying situation, whether

1134
00:57:46,200 --> 00:57:48,919
Speaker 3: it is you did have consensual sex and you didn't

1135
00:57:48,960 --> 00:57:53,920
Speaker 3: have protection, or because you didn't understand the way anatomy works,

1136
00:57:54,400 --> 00:57:57,320
Speaker 3: didn't have full understanding what was happening with you. We

1137
00:57:57,400 --> 00:58:02,000
Speaker 3: already know there's sexual trauma within even normal situations that

1138
00:58:02,000 --> 00:58:04,200
Speaker 3: could be sexual trauma. And when I say normal, I

1139
00:58:04,240 --> 00:58:10,080
Speaker 3: mean consensual situations or whatever it was consensual, like having understanding,

1140
00:58:10,200 --> 00:58:12,880
Speaker 3: would these jays coming in and be like, let me

1141
00:58:12,960 --> 00:58:15,840
Speaker 3: counsel you and let's have a deep conversation, but also

1142
00:58:15,880 --> 00:58:17,800
Speaker 3: we're going to set this whole place up like a

1143
00:58:17,840 --> 00:58:21,000
Speaker 3: home so that you feel comfortable and like not instead

1144
00:58:21,000 --> 00:58:25,840
Speaker 3: of being a sterile, scary back hall like what people

1145
00:58:25,880 --> 00:58:27,640
Speaker 3: would search for at that point in time trying.

1146
00:58:27,440 --> 00:58:28,720
Speaker 4: To get those illegal abortions.

1147
00:58:28,880 --> 00:58:32,000
Speaker 3: Really feeling like these are professionals, Like that's wow, Like

1148
00:58:32,080 --> 00:58:33,520
Speaker 3: that's above and beyond.

1149
00:58:33,680 --> 00:58:34,400
Speaker 4: I love that.

1150
00:58:34,960 --> 00:58:39,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, No, that and thinking about like I mean, you know,

1151
00:58:39,600 --> 00:58:42,040
Speaker 2: not at anywhere the same level of scale of what

1152
00:58:42,120 --> 00:58:44,880
Speaker 2: some other people out to deal with. I remember the

1153
00:58:44,880 --> 00:58:46,800
Speaker 2: first time, just so now that listeners know way too

1154
00:58:46,880 --> 00:58:49,840
Speaker 2: much about my sexual history and health. I went to

1155
00:58:49,840 --> 00:58:52,200
Speaker 2: go at SCI screening the first time after I came

1156
00:58:52,240 --> 00:58:54,400
Speaker 2: out as trends and was like willing to, you know,

1157
00:58:54,440 --> 00:58:57,400
Speaker 2: put down my actual gender on forms and things like that.

1158
00:58:57,480 --> 00:58:59,640
Speaker 2: And I went to go get an STI screening and like,

1159
00:59:00,240 --> 00:59:03,000
Speaker 2: you know, and was in this stupid room with a

1160
00:59:03,520 --> 00:59:06,240
Speaker 2: stupid health practitioner who touched me in appropriately and like

1161
00:59:06,360 --> 00:59:10,400
Speaker 2: came on to me while you know, touching my genitals

1162
00:59:10,440 --> 00:59:14,520
Speaker 2: and like yeah, and I'm like and then and then

1163
00:59:14,560 --> 00:59:17,440
Speaker 2: I it took me a long ass time before I

1164
00:59:17,440 --> 00:59:20,480
Speaker 2: went and got STI screened again, you know, and like

1165
00:59:20,560 --> 00:59:22,760
Speaker 2: I'm not proud of that, and I'm sorry everyone, you know,

1166
00:59:22,800 --> 00:59:25,320
Speaker 2: but like but it's like and just thinking about what

1167
00:59:25,360 --> 00:59:27,120
Speaker 2: it must be like, yeah, like you're talking about being

1168
00:59:27,160 --> 00:59:29,959
Speaker 2: in this situation where you're like, fuck it, I'm giving

1169
00:59:30,000 --> 00:59:33,520
Speaker 2: myself an abortion, you know. Like so I'm like really

1170
00:59:33,520 --> 00:59:35,440
Speaker 2: not trying to shame this person who like chose not

1171
00:59:35,480 --> 00:59:37,280
Speaker 2: to go to the hospital until it's too late.

1172
00:59:37,600 --> 00:59:40,560
Speaker 3: You know, this is a bad first and foremost, I'm

1173
00:59:40,560 --> 00:59:43,920
Speaker 3: so sorry that you went through that. That bullshit on

1174
00:59:44,600 --> 00:59:47,680
Speaker 3: every level and it was wrong and that person should

1175
00:59:47,680 --> 00:59:52,280
Speaker 3: be arrested and they are assholes for a foremost. Yeah,

1176
00:59:52,360 --> 00:59:54,720
Speaker 3: I've had enough of my day with just people being

1177
00:59:54,760 --> 00:59:57,920
Speaker 3: bad people, and what happened to you, Oh my god,

1178
00:59:59,000 --> 01:00:03,440
Speaker 3: I'm speechless in that. I hate that. Now I'm beginning

1179
01:00:03,480 --> 01:00:05,760
Speaker 3: to know you that whatever anyone would ever have to

1180
01:00:05,760 --> 01:00:07,840
Speaker 3: go through anything like that to a person that they

1181
01:00:07,880 --> 01:00:10,640
Speaker 3: should be able to trust. Professionals are someone that we

1182
01:00:10,640 --> 01:00:12,200
Speaker 3: should be able to trust. And you were kind of

1183
01:00:12,200 --> 01:00:15,560
Speaker 3: talking about that with the Jane's being like ugh, Heather

1184
01:00:15,720 --> 01:00:17,200
Speaker 3: being like, you know what, I think there needs to

1185
01:00:17,200 --> 01:00:19,600
Speaker 3: be a woman present so we can watch and make

1186
01:00:19,640 --> 01:00:23,600
Speaker 3: sure they don't feel traumatized that in itself. Oh god,

1187
01:00:23,760 --> 01:00:26,080
Speaker 3: I am so sorry and that should not have happened

1188
01:00:26,120 --> 01:00:28,960
Speaker 3: to you, and that was wrong in every fucking level.

1189
01:00:29,720 --> 01:00:32,640
Speaker 2: Thank you. Yeah, it's funny to like, you know, like, oh,

1190
01:00:32,680 --> 01:00:34,600
Speaker 2: I've like barely told people this and now I've told

1191
01:00:34,920 --> 01:00:38,560
Speaker 2: however many people of this, but like I don't have

1192
01:00:38,600 --> 01:00:40,400
Speaker 2: any I don't feel any like guilt or shame around it.

1193
01:00:40,400 --> 01:00:42,880
Speaker 2: I'm just angry, you know, and like right, and I'm

1194
01:00:42,880 --> 01:00:45,240
Speaker 2: angry that, Like, you know, I was like so excited,

1195
01:00:45,400 --> 01:00:47,080
Speaker 2: Like it's whatever, if I talk about this too much,

1196
01:00:47,080 --> 01:00:48,920
Speaker 2: ILL start crying, But like I was so excited that

1197
01:00:48,920 --> 01:00:50,560
Speaker 2: I could like fill out the form and actually write

1198
01:00:50,600 --> 01:00:52,400
Speaker 2: down that I'm like, you know, trans woman and shit

1199
01:00:52,440 --> 01:00:53,840
Speaker 2: like that, and it's like, oh, I'm gonna have gender

1200
01:00:53,920 --> 01:00:56,920
Speaker 2: firming care. I've never had gender firming care. And I'm like, oh,

1201
01:00:57,240 --> 01:01:03,760
Speaker 2: actually being seen as a woman sucks. Yeah.

1202
01:01:03,880 --> 01:01:07,120
Speaker 3: That's definitely just the whole different level of like there's

1203
01:01:07,160 --> 01:01:10,360
Speaker 3: moments that you should be celebrating to be free. Oh

1204
01:01:10,360 --> 01:01:12,160
Speaker 3: my god, I'm free here, I am I get to

1205
01:01:12,200 --> 01:01:15,000
Speaker 3: be here and be who I am, and then have

1206
01:01:15,200 --> 01:01:19,840
Speaker 3: this dick coming through and just ruining that moment and

1207
01:01:19,880 --> 01:01:25,800
Speaker 3: then honestly portraying their betraying their professionalism, betraying their profession,

1208
01:01:26,800 --> 01:01:29,960
Speaker 3: and showing off as like oh, yeah, you are evil

1209
01:01:30,240 --> 01:01:33,720
Speaker 3: in general and therefore you should they should not be

1210
01:01:33,720 --> 01:01:37,200
Speaker 3: a part of this profession, I whatever, whatnot. But on

1211
01:01:37,280 --> 01:01:40,760
Speaker 3: top of that, yeah, that you had the audacity to

1212
01:01:42,080 --> 01:01:45,960
Speaker 3: take someone's hope, yeah and safety, and I hate that.

1213
01:01:46,040 --> 01:01:51,280
Speaker 3: I am so sorry. And again yeah, and I love Yeah,

1214
01:01:51,440 --> 01:01:54,800
Speaker 3: you being angry. Yeah, you're better than I because.

1215
01:01:54,600 --> 01:01:55,560
Speaker 2: I think I would like.

1216
01:01:57,160 --> 01:01:58,160
Speaker 3: Rage everywhere.

1217
01:01:58,200 --> 01:02:01,560
Speaker 2: But you know, yeah, that's a whole different conversation about me.

1218
01:02:02,960 --> 01:02:05,280
Speaker 2: Now I am. I am totally fine with rage and

1219
01:02:05,280 --> 01:02:07,560
Speaker 2: anger as a way of dealing with certain issues in

1220
01:02:07,640 --> 01:02:10,560
Speaker 2: society and in my personal life when when people are

1221
01:02:10,560 --> 01:02:11,080
Speaker 2: doing things.

1222
01:02:12,080 --> 01:02:14,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, and yeah, coming back to I love that the

1223
01:02:14,520 --> 01:02:19,439
Speaker 3: Jain collective really kind of understood that level. And yeah,

1224
01:02:19,520 --> 01:02:21,560
Speaker 3: I hate that that someone died and that's not someone

1225
01:02:21,600 --> 01:02:24,800
Speaker 3: that they I know, like they were traumatized them, which

1226
01:02:24,800 --> 01:02:27,040
Speaker 3: is why we've got Their whole attitude was like we

1227
01:02:27,080 --> 01:02:30,400
Speaker 3: got to do better. That's why we as women, even

1228
01:02:30,400 --> 01:02:33,160
Speaker 3: though they were not doctors and medical professionals, and it

1229
01:02:33,280 --> 01:02:34,960
Speaker 3: is concerning. I will say when I first read that,

1230
01:02:35,000 --> 01:02:38,960
Speaker 3: I was like, oh, that's a good idea. But understanding

1231
01:02:39,040 --> 01:02:42,640
Speaker 3: that they really cared about these people that were coming

1232
01:02:42,760 --> 01:02:46,280
Speaker 3: in and was all about giving them safety and understanding

1233
01:02:46,320 --> 01:02:48,360
Speaker 3: what they've had to do is what they had to

1234
01:02:48,440 --> 01:02:52,200
Speaker 3: do because the doctors were no longer coming through because

1235
01:02:52,240 --> 01:02:54,640
Speaker 3: they were getting like the Row versus way was really

1236
01:02:54,680 --> 01:02:58,120
Speaker 3: coming through about who was getting penalized and who was

1237
01:02:58,200 --> 01:03:01,960
Speaker 3: really getting targeted, and so they had less and less options,

1238
01:03:02,080 --> 01:03:04,840
Speaker 3: and why not if they can truly do a good job.

1239
01:03:05,760 --> 01:03:08,160
Speaker 3: And the big thing was getting the right equipment and

1240
01:03:08,240 --> 01:03:11,120
Speaker 3: getting sterilized equipment. I know that was a big factor in.

1241
01:03:11,120 --> 01:03:11,640
Speaker 4: It as well.

1242
01:03:12,000 --> 01:03:16,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, but you know who will sell you sterile medical

1243
01:03:16,360 --> 01:03:21,920
Speaker 2: equipment that you can use? Tell me the products? Can

1244
01:03:21,960 --> 01:03:24,600
Speaker 2: we get can we get a can we get sponsored

1245
01:03:24,640 --> 01:03:27,320
Speaker 2: by by at home Abortion Care?

1246
01:03:29,480 --> 01:03:31,960
Speaker 3: You know one of our sponsors was playing b hell

1247
01:03:32,080 --> 01:03:34,080
Speaker 3: yeah fuck yeah cool, So there you go.

1248
01:03:35,680 --> 01:03:38,440
Speaker 2: Okay, well and then we're sponsored by that and whatever.

1249
01:03:38,560 --> 01:03:39,440
Speaker 2: This other stuff is.

1250
01:03:46,320 --> 01:03:48,000
Speaker 3: Back from the break. That was a long one. Let's go.

1251
01:03:48,520 --> 01:03:51,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, And you know who else kept going was was

1252
01:03:51,680 --> 01:03:55,200
Speaker 2: the Jaine Collective because as you were pointing out, like

1253
01:03:55,880 --> 01:03:58,160
Speaker 2: this brush with death like shook them up because they

1254
01:03:58,920 --> 01:04:00,840
Speaker 2: I mean, it wasn't their fault, right, they didn't do

1255
01:04:00,880 --> 01:04:02,520
Speaker 2: anything wrong, but they care.

1256
01:04:02,680 --> 01:04:02,880
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1257
01:04:03,520 --> 01:04:06,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, that was the whole point of them starting is

1258
01:04:06,480 --> 01:04:11,240
Speaker 3: because they wanted to prevent people from dying from this

1259
01:04:11,400 --> 01:04:14,480
Speaker 3: type of process and this type of access. And so

1260
01:04:14,760 --> 01:04:16,600
Speaker 3: even though it had nothing to do with them, it

1261
01:04:16,720 --> 01:04:20,880
Speaker 3: was still a death because of something so preventable.

1262
01:04:21,360 --> 01:04:24,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I was trying to make a joke about

1263
01:04:24,320 --> 01:04:25,440
Speaker 2: how they are actually just in it to make a

1264
01:04:25,520 --> 01:04:27,760
Speaker 2: quick buck, but it wouldn't even work because it's so

1265
01:04:27,800 --> 01:04:31,640
Speaker 2: obviously untrue, and so they keep going. Over one hundred

1266
01:04:31,680 --> 01:04:33,880
Speaker 2: women work as Jane. So the course of the project, though,

1267
01:04:33,920 --> 01:04:36,120
Speaker 2: generally is like twenty to thirty at any given time,

1268
01:04:37,560 --> 01:04:40,200
Speaker 2: which is kind of interesting to have this high turnover rate, Like, oh,

1269
01:04:40,320 --> 01:04:42,120
Speaker 2: like is this casual thing? You go join this like

1270
01:04:42,520 --> 01:04:46,439
Speaker 2: very above ground, underground organization that's like committing felonies, which

1271
01:04:46,520 --> 01:04:51,160
Speaker 2: is fucking cool. One Jane named Jeanie Gallaser Levey, and

1272
01:04:51,280 --> 01:04:54,280
Speaker 2: she'll come up more later. She described her first meeting

1273
01:04:54,560 --> 01:04:56,480
Speaker 2: that she showed up to for orientation. There were like

1274
01:04:56,560 --> 01:04:59,240
Speaker 2: thirty women crammed into the dining room. Each new volunteer

1275
01:04:59,400 --> 01:05:01,640
Speaker 2: was paired with a big sister who would get them

1276
01:05:01,680 --> 01:05:04,520
Speaker 2: onboarded like a mentor. And at each meeting, they would

1277
01:05:04,520 --> 01:05:06,680
Speaker 2: pass around index cards with all of the cases that

1278
01:05:06,800 --> 01:05:09,120
Speaker 2: needed to be handled, and everyone would take the cards

1279
01:05:09,480 --> 01:05:12,080
Speaker 2: of the cases that they wanted to handle, And of

1280
01:05:12,160 --> 01:05:14,479
Speaker 2: course that meant they like, everyone took the easy cards first,

1281
01:05:14,600 --> 01:05:17,160
Speaker 2: you know, and then like the big complicated ones. Everyone's like,

1282
01:05:17,560 --> 01:05:20,640
Speaker 2: but you know, we've all been there. And so in

1283
01:05:20,720 --> 01:05:23,480
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy one, Jody Howard finally tells the rest of

1284
01:05:23,520 --> 01:05:26,920
Speaker 2: the group that sexy nick Man was not a quote

1285
01:05:26,960 --> 01:05:29,640
Speaker 2: unquote real doctor, and.

1286
01:05:29,800 --> 01:05:32,920
Speaker 3: Did we change did we change his name to Nick Man? No?

1287
01:05:33,080 --> 01:05:36,400
Speaker 2: Nick Mike? Sorry, I yeah, no nick Man, sexy man,

1288
01:05:36,560 --> 01:05:37,720
Speaker 2: Nick Mike. I don't know.

1289
01:05:37,880 --> 01:05:40,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, I've misstarted.

1290
01:05:40,440 --> 01:05:43,960
Speaker 2: No wrong, everyone's listening to the right answer.

1291
01:05:44,120 --> 01:05:49,920
Speaker 3: We don't amazing amazing by the sexy nick Man.

1292
01:05:50,040 --> 01:05:55,680
Speaker 2: Yet sexy sexy sexy guy. Uh, it's okay. So people

1293
01:05:55,720 --> 01:05:59,320
Speaker 2: take the news really card right, And the reactions fall

1294
01:05:59,360 --> 01:06:01,920
Speaker 2: into two camps, and half of them were like, we're

1295
01:06:02,000 --> 01:06:03,960
Speaker 2: no better than the back alley providers, and the other

1296
01:06:04,040 --> 01:06:07,120
Speaker 2: half were like, well, if crime guy can do it,

1297
01:06:07,240 --> 01:06:12,480
Speaker 2: so can we. And in general, the former camp left

1298
01:06:12,600 --> 01:06:15,439
Speaker 2: and the latter camp stayed, and many of the people

1299
01:06:15,440 --> 01:06:18,120
Speaker 2: who stayed. You know, I've read some said that half

1300
01:06:18,200 --> 01:06:19,800
Speaker 2: of the Jane's left, and I've read other things that

1301
01:06:19,880 --> 01:06:25,120
Speaker 2: said that's an exaggeration. I don't know, but a lot

1302
01:06:25,160 --> 01:06:27,160
Speaker 2: of the ones who stayed learned how to provide abortions,

1303
01:06:27,720 --> 01:06:30,400
Speaker 2: and abortion was kind of having a bit of a

1304
01:06:30,440 --> 01:06:32,680
Speaker 2: renaissance around this time in the late sixties and early

1305
01:06:32,720 --> 01:06:35,520
Speaker 2: seventies in terms of how it was done. A lot

1306
01:06:35,560 --> 01:06:38,280
Speaker 2: of the abortionists. Yeah, we're sketchy back alley providers, but

1307
01:06:39,080 --> 01:06:41,000
Speaker 2: the Jain Collective wasn't the only ones who are taking

1308
01:06:41,040 --> 01:06:45,000
Speaker 2: it seriously and caring. Other people were working their asses

1309
01:06:45,040 --> 01:06:47,400
Speaker 2: off to help people get abortions safely and effectively despite

1310
01:06:47,520 --> 01:06:49,600
Speaker 2: state repression. And we're going to talk a little bit later,

1311
01:06:49,680 --> 01:06:52,160
Speaker 2: I think in part two about some of the things

1312
01:06:52,200 --> 01:06:55,240
Speaker 2: that the methods that people pioneered and which ones are

1313
01:06:55,280 --> 01:06:58,080
Speaker 2: still applicable to the Dame, which ones are not. So

1314
01:06:58,600 --> 01:07:01,439
Speaker 2: Nick Mike, he makes himself oppas he was a crime

1315
01:07:01,520 --> 01:07:03,440
Speaker 2: guy at the end of the day, and he's in

1316
01:07:03,520 --> 01:07:06,880
Speaker 2: it for the money, but he's willing to make himself obsolete.

1317
01:07:06,920 --> 01:07:08,880
Speaker 2: So he teaches a lot of Jane's how to do

1318
01:07:09,040 --> 01:07:11,120
Speaker 2: this because and they're like, well, we want to charge

1319
01:07:11,120 --> 01:07:12,680
Speaker 2: one hundred bucks, and he's like, yeah, that's not going

1320
01:07:12,760 --> 01:07:14,320
Speaker 2: to happen. So he teaches them how to do it,

1321
01:07:14,360 --> 01:07:17,320
Speaker 2: and then he fucks off and he's just like gone,

1322
01:07:17,400 --> 01:07:19,000
Speaker 2: His trail goes cold. Did you ever have you ever

1323
01:07:19,080 --> 01:07:19,880
Speaker 2: heard anything else?

1324
01:07:19,960 --> 01:07:23,520
Speaker 3: There's just so like one of the things I read

1325
01:07:23,680 --> 01:07:26,040
Speaker 3: was that that the mafia was after him and that's

1326
01:07:26,080 --> 01:07:28,960
Speaker 3: why he just disappeared. But that could have been just

1327
01:07:29,080 --> 01:07:32,840
Speaker 3: someone trying to make it a bigger story, and that's

1328
01:07:32,880 --> 01:07:35,000
Speaker 3: why we don't have nothing of them. But it could

1329
01:07:35,040 --> 01:07:37,360
Speaker 3: be as simple as he didn't want any part of it.

1330
01:07:37,680 --> 01:07:40,600
Speaker 3: They it got a little hot, a lot of people

1331
01:07:40,680 --> 01:07:44,320
Speaker 3: were investigating different types of organizations, and because the doctors

1332
01:07:44,360 --> 01:07:46,480
Speaker 3: had pulled out, he pulled out too. And also he

1333
01:07:46,520 --> 01:07:49,120
Speaker 3: didn't get enough money since they were trying to downgrade

1334
01:07:49,160 --> 01:07:51,280
Speaker 3: the cost. So he was like, fine, never see you again.

1335
01:07:51,720 --> 01:07:54,000
Speaker 3: But yeah, I did hear that the mafia might have

1336
01:07:54,120 --> 01:07:55,360
Speaker 3: come after him. Yeah.

1337
01:07:55,600 --> 01:07:57,360
Speaker 2: I like to think that he rode away into the

1338
01:07:57,400 --> 01:08:00,080
Speaker 2: sunset on a motorcycle while smoking and then live to

1339
01:08:00,120 --> 01:08:02,640
Speaker 2: one hundred and seven. That's that's the version of him.

1340
01:08:02,880 --> 01:08:05,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, sexy Nick Mike has got He's got it to

1341
01:08:06,000 --> 01:08:07,320
Speaker 3: be in the sunset somewhere.

1342
01:08:07,480 --> 01:08:08,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally.

1343
01:08:08,320 --> 01:08:10,760
Speaker 4: For some reason, he is Mike Nick for me.

1344
01:08:11,280 --> 01:08:14,000
Speaker 1: But I hear what I'm saying, Nick, Mike is Mike

1345
01:08:14,120 --> 01:08:16,720
Speaker 1: Nick for me, And you know what, that's just a

1346
01:08:16,800 --> 01:08:17,719
Speaker 1: personal preference.

1347
01:08:17,800 --> 01:08:22,400
Speaker 3: I guess it is Nick Mike. Mike Nick can be

1348
01:08:22,520 --> 01:08:24,519
Speaker 3: whoever you need him to be, because he's just the

1349
01:08:24,600 --> 01:08:26,400
Speaker 3: sexy man he really rode away.

1350
01:08:26,520 --> 01:08:28,760
Speaker 2: Who shows up and teaches you how to provide abortions

1351
01:08:28,800 --> 01:08:30,280
Speaker 2: and then rides off at the sunset.

1352
01:08:30,640 --> 01:08:34,519
Speaker 3: Apparently there you go, who knew this is what we

1353
01:08:34,640 --> 01:08:35,559
Speaker 3: needed in our lives?

1354
01:08:35,720 --> 01:08:39,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, But the greatest part is they only needed him

1355
01:08:39,400 --> 01:08:41,960
Speaker 2: for a little while, just a little while, because he

1356
01:08:42,000 --> 01:08:44,360
Speaker 2: made himself obsolete. And then at that point all of

1357
01:08:44,400 --> 01:08:47,519
Speaker 2: the work was being done entirely by women. And they

1358
01:08:47,880 --> 01:08:49,880
Speaker 2: also it wasn't just enough that they like did it

1359
01:08:49,920 --> 01:08:51,880
Speaker 2: in the cold medical way. They also still wanted to

1360
01:08:51,920 --> 01:08:53,960
Speaker 2: again sort of de medicalize it, and they wanted to

1361
01:08:54,160 --> 01:08:57,320
Speaker 2: teach clients what was happening and give them agency. One

1362
01:08:57,360 --> 01:08:59,360
Speaker 2: of the one of the Janes Ruth Circle, in an

1363
01:08:59,400 --> 01:09:03,320
Speaker 2: interview quote, it was one of the things we talked

1364
01:09:03,360 --> 01:09:06,519
Speaker 2: about a lot. We were not doing something to this woman.

1365
01:09:06,640 --> 01:09:08,640
Speaker 2: We were doing something with this woman and she was

1366
01:09:08,680 --> 01:09:10,360
Speaker 2: as much a part of it and part of the

1367
01:09:10,400 --> 01:09:13,160
Speaker 2: process as we were. So that we would talk about

1368
01:09:13,240 --> 01:09:15,640
Speaker 2: how we relied on them. If we got busted, you know,

1369
01:09:15,760 --> 01:09:18,360
Speaker 2: we would explain that they were not doing something illegal.

1370
01:09:18,680 --> 01:09:21,479
Speaker 2: We were doing something illegal, but we need their help,

1371
01:09:22,200 --> 01:09:23,880
Speaker 2: and you know, you don't talk about it, and we

1372
01:09:24,000 --> 01:09:24,840
Speaker 2: have to keep quiet.

1373
01:09:25,680 --> 01:09:26,400
Speaker 1: So I like that.

1374
01:09:26,520 --> 01:09:29,280
Speaker 2: They like basically they are like, look because it wasn't

1375
01:09:29,320 --> 01:09:31,679
Speaker 2: illegal to get an abortion, was illegal to give an abortion,

1376
01:09:32,840 --> 01:09:35,240
Speaker 2: So the Janes were taking all of the legal risk.

1377
01:09:36,160 --> 01:09:38,240
Speaker 2: But they basically brought everyone in and were like, look

1378
01:09:38,320 --> 01:09:40,400
Speaker 2: like you rely on us, we need to rely on you,

1379
01:09:40,600 --> 01:09:44,240
Speaker 2: And I think that's cool, right, Yeah, And not all

1380
01:09:44,280 --> 01:09:47,719
Speaker 2: of them performed abortion, some of them. Everyone took tasks

1381
01:09:47,760 --> 01:09:50,639
Speaker 2: that suited them best. They were callback Jane's who talked

1382
01:09:50,640 --> 01:09:53,120
Speaker 2: to the patients, and big Janes whould handle the coordination.

1383
01:09:54,000 --> 01:09:56,320
Speaker 2: At least one Jane later pointed out that decision making

1384
01:09:56,400 --> 01:10:00,719
Speaker 2: was kind of fraught within the collective. They to suppress

1385
01:10:00,760 --> 01:10:03,479
Speaker 2: internal conflict and so everyone will like stay focused on

1386
01:10:03,560 --> 01:10:05,360
Speaker 2: the task and we don't have time to address the

1387
01:10:05,800 --> 01:10:07,839
Speaker 2: you know, power dynamics and the other issue is happening.

1388
01:10:08,640 --> 01:10:10,600
Speaker 2: And I'm gonna trying to like single them out for this.

1389
01:10:10,880 --> 01:10:14,920
Speaker 2: Every activist organization I've ever heard of does this, right,

1390
01:10:15,080 --> 01:10:16,640
Speaker 2: It's like something that we just need to be aware of.

1391
01:10:17,200 --> 01:10:19,080
Speaker 2: And I don't know whether this happens particularly in direct

1392
01:10:19,080 --> 01:10:21,160
Speaker 2: action groups or if I think that because most of

1393
01:10:21,240 --> 01:10:23,840
Speaker 2: the organizations I've been involved with rerem or direct action groups.

1394
01:10:24,120 --> 01:10:25,800
Speaker 2: But it's just a thing that happens where like people

1395
01:10:25,840 --> 01:10:27,840
Speaker 2: are like you know, like tree sitters are like, oh,

1396
01:10:27,880 --> 01:10:29,920
Speaker 2: we can't talk about patriarchy within the movement. They're cutting

1397
01:10:29,960 --> 01:10:33,680
Speaker 2: the trees down right now, you know, right, And so

1398
01:10:33,720 --> 01:10:34,960
Speaker 2: I think they had some of that going on, at

1399
01:10:35,040 --> 01:10:37,320
Speaker 2: least according to to least one of them later.

1400
01:10:37,960 --> 01:10:40,320
Speaker 3: It wouldn't be surprising. And I go, of course, we

1401
01:10:40,360 --> 01:10:42,439
Speaker 3: don't know all of the Janes I came through, but

1402
01:10:42,920 --> 01:10:46,160
Speaker 3: it was pretty much ran by white women. Yeah, and

1403
01:10:46,600 --> 01:10:49,200
Speaker 3: when we know what happens when it comes to feminism

1404
01:10:49,280 --> 01:10:51,720
Speaker 3: and white women and where that can lead and who

1405
01:10:52,040 --> 01:10:55,800
Speaker 3: actually gate keys what, there's always going to be situations

1406
01:10:55,840 --> 01:10:58,160
Speaker 3: with that. And then when you have something that is

1407
01:10:58,280 --> 01:11:03,839
Speaker 3: so as you said, fraud but like uncertain anything illegal

1408
01:11:03,920 --> 01:11:05,560
Speaker 3: we know is going to be uncertain, is going to

1409
01:11:05,640 --> 01:11:08,200
Speaker 3: have a lot of stress. And I can't imagine what

1410
01:11:08,280 --> 01:11:10,800
Speaker 3: that looks like within a group, especially when we're also

1411
01:11:10,920 --> 01:11:14,880
Speaker 3: handling handling medical procedures on your own as well. So

1412
01:11:15,080 --> 01:11:17,800
Speaker 3: I like, there's so many things to that. And again,

1413
01:11:17,880 --> 01:11:20,760
Speaker 3: like talking about who was getting access, a lot of

1414
01:11:20,800 --> 01:11:23,120
Speaker 3: people were getting access, but it seeming like it was

1415
01:11:23,120 --> 01:11:25,599
Speaker 3: a lot of like college students at this point in time.

1416
01:11:25,720 --> 01:11:28,120
Speaker 3: We know that for young women to be in college,

1417
01:11:28,280 --> 01:11:30,320
Speaker 3: they probably had some money, and even though they might

1418
01:11:30,360 --> 01:11:32,920
Speaker 3: not have as much money as others in society, they

1419
01:11:32,960 --> 01:11:35,400
Speaker 3: still had a little bit of access and higher economic

1420
01:11:35,479 --> 01:11:40,040
Speaker 3: status than most. And again it says a lot too

1421
01:11:40,160 --> 01:11:42,000
Speaker 3: even though they were trying to be accessible, but the

1422
01:11:42,240 --> 01:11:45,919
Speaker 3: word of mouth went through who didn't go to typically

1423
01:11:46,320 --> 01:11:49,840
Speaker 3: of middle class women so or middle class people at

1424
01:11:49,840 --> 01:11:51,200
Speaker 3: that point in time. So there's a lot to be

1425
01:11:51,320 --> 01:11:53,760
Speaker 3: said kind of the same way that if we wanted

1426
01:11:53,800 --> 01:11:55,200
Speaker 3: to go jump and I don't want to because I

1427
01:11:55,240 --> 01:11:59,200
Speaker 3: did this with Robert a long time ago about planned

1428
01:11:59,240 --> 01:12:01,840
Speaker 3: parenthood and the gettings of that. So you know, we

1429
01:12:02,000 --> 01:12:06,240
Speaker 3: know that there is things that happen within movements and

1430
01:12:06,400 --> 01:12:09,040
Speaker 3: who was leading movements and what that could have been

1431
01:12:09,640 --> 01:12:13,920
Speaker 3: on the underbelly of it totally and you know more

1432
01:12:13,960 --> 01:12:14,280
Speaker 3: than I do.

1433
01:12:14,479 --> 01:12:16,840
Speaker 2: But no, no, I don't. And like, I mean, it's

1434
01:12:16,840 --> 01:12:18,960
Speaker 2: funny because once again you're reading my script ahead of me,

1435
01:12:19,000 --> 01:12:20,840
Speaker 2: and I not in a bad way, no, I just

1436
01:12:20,920 --> 01:12:22,360
Speaker 2: I like that we're on the same page about this,

1437
01:12:22,560 --> 01:12:25,720
Speaker 2: because yeah, that's one of the most important things to

1438
01:12:25,840 --> 01:12:28,880
Speaker 2: understand with a lot of this is like it's mostly

1439
01:12:28,920 --> 01:12:31,280
Speaker 2: white women. It's almost exclusively white women doing this work

1440
01:12:32,439 --> 01:12:35,839
Speaker 2: in nineteen seventy, New York and a few other states Hawaii, Alaska,

1441
01:12:35,920 --> 01:12:39,559
Speaker 2: and Washington legalized most abortion, and suddenly there weren't as

1442
01:12:39,680 --> 01:12:43,559
Speaker 2: many middle class patients from that point because people could

1443
01:12:43,640 --> 01:12:45,920
Speaker 2: just fly or train out to New York and have

1444
01:12:45,960 --> 01:12:47,519
Speaker 2: a legal abortion instead of going all the way to

1445
01:12:47,520 --> 01:12:50,280
Speaker 2: the UK. And so they started serving the black community

1446
01:12:50,280 --> 01:12:52,599
Speaker 2: of Chicago more and more, but it was still white

1447
01:12:52,640 --> 01:12:56,599
Speaker 2: women doing it. And yeah, when I first read, like, oh,

1448
01:12:56,680 --> 01:12:58,880
Speaker 2: they advertised in the student papers, and I'm like, Okay,

1449
01:12:59,200 --> 01:13:01,720
Speaker 2: it's really cool students have access to abortion, but that

1450
01:13:01,840 --> 01:13:04,640
Speaker 2: is not necessarily like the majority of the people in

1451
01:13:04,800 --> 01:13:05,959
Speaker 2: Chicago or whatever.

1452
01:13:05,800 --> 01:13:05,960
Speaker 3: You know.

1453
01:13:07,439 --> 01:13:12,200
Speaker 2: And I've only run across one black chain, a woman

1454
01:13:12,240 --> 01:13:16,439
Speaker 2: named Louise, who joined basically to be like, look, y'all

1455
01:13:16,439 --> 01:13:18,599
Speaker 2: are doing a good thing, but it's like still kind

1456
01:13:18,600 --> 01:13:22,160
Speaker 2: of fucking weird that you're all white. And then again,

1457
01:13:22,400 --> 01:13:24,800
Speaker 2: and I read that basically her friends were like, what

1458
01:13:24,920 --> 01:13:27,040
Speaker 2: are you fucking doing? If these white women get caught,

1459
01:13:27,560 --> 01:13:31,120
Speaker 2: they'll get off, and if you get caught, you're fucked right.

1460
01:13:32,320 --> 01:13:34,320
Speaker 2: And I don't know that that ever had to be tested.

1461
01:13:34,600 --> 01:13:37,760
Speaker 2: I don't believe it it was ever tested. Well, the

1462
01:13:37,840 --> 01:13:40,639
Speaker 2: fact that white women getting arrested ended up. Okay, was tested,

1463
01:13:40,840 --> 01:13:43,760
Speaker 2: but I don't believe any I believe Louise was the

1464
01:13:43,840 --> 01:13:46,280
Speaker 2: only black Jaine and certainly the only one I ran across.

1465
01:13:46,560 --> 01:13:49,680
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, and just the little research that I did,

1466
01:13:49,800 --> 01:13:53,559
Speaker 3: I didn't see her name pop up like or who

1467
01:13:53,640 --> 01:13:57,360
Speaker 3: she was. Also, yeah, again, probably being identified is not

1468
01:13:57,479 --> 01:14:01,559
Speaker 3: a thing you want to be doing an underground the totally.

1469
01:14:02,520 --> 01:14:05,960
Speaker 3: But yeah, absolutely that's dangerous on so many levels. And

1470
01:14:06,120 --> 01:14:06,760
Speaker 3: we understand that.

1471
01:14:06,960 --> 01:14:11,919
Speaker 4: And in Chicago in itself, long ugly history of segregation

1472
01:14:12,040 --> 01:14:12,400
Speaker 4: and such.

1473
01:14:12,680 --> 01:14:16,880
Speaker 2: Yep. So now that Nick Mike is gone and they're

1474
01:14:16,880 --> 01:14:19,519
Speaker 2: providing the abortions themselves, though their prices are able to

1475
01:14:19,600 --> 01:14:24,120
Speaker 2: drop dramatically. Their abortions were nominally one hundred dollars, but

1476
01:14:24,240 --> 01:14:26,880
Speaker 2: realistically they took whatever the patient could offer. They averaged

1477
01:14:26,880 --> 01:14:29,600
Speaker 2: about fifty dollars. The drivers were the ones collecting the

1478
01:14:29,680 --> 01:14:32,880
Speaker 2: money and somewhere between the front and the place, but

1479
01:14:33,000 --> 01:14:36,000
Speaker 2: they didn't count the money. They just were handed money

1480
01:14:36,040 --> 01:14:38,559
Speaker 2: and took it. Sometimes they were handed jars of change

1481
01:14:39,320 --> 01:14:42,720
Speaker 2: and when they could, twenty five dollars were taken out

1482
01:14:43,040 --> 01:14:45,080
Speaker 2: of every you know, and if those at least twenty

1483
01:14:45,120 --> 01:14:46,840
Speaker 2: five dollars as far as I understand, twenty five dollars

1484
01:14:46,960 --> 01:14:49,080
Speaker 2: was taken out and put into a revolving loan fund

1485
01:14:49,479 --> 01:14:51,720
Speaker 2: where people could come and say, like I need a

1486
01:14:51,800 --> 01:14:53,240
Speaker 2: loan to get it, and they would have a no

1487
01:14:53,360 --> 01:14:56,040
Speaker 2: interest loan that kind of is a like, look, please

1488
01:14:56,120 --> 01:14:58,640
Speaker 2: pay it back, but we're not like sending anyone to

1489
01:14:58,680 --> 01:15:00,479
Speaker 2: your house if you don't pay it back, you know.

1490
01:15:00,680 --> 01:15:03,559
Speaker 2: So it's kind of a like a please pay it back,

1491
01:15:03,640 --> 01:15:05,240
Speaker 2: not a you must pay.

1492
01:15:05,160 --> 01:15:06,759
Speaker 4: It honor system.

1493
01:15:07,080 --> 01:15:08,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally. And it's and it's kind of the thing

1494
01:15:08,680 --> 01:15:10,000
Speaker 2: where it's like not just non our system, but like

1495
01:15:10,280 --> 01:15:13,200
Speaker 2: I assume they weren't like, don't starve yourself to pay

1496
01:15:13,280 --> 01:15:17,360
Speaker 2: us back, right, you know. Yeah, And you know, they

1497
01:15:17,400 --> 01:15:19,240
Speaker 2: basically were just like, this is so that the next

1498
01:15:19,360 --> 01:15:21,680
Speaker 2: woman who needs an abortion can have one if you can,

1499
01:15:21,880 --> 01:15:23,600
Speaker 2: you know. And that's and that's where we're going to

1500
01:15:23,680 --> 01:15:26,320
Speaker 2: leave it today with Jane in their heyday. They're an

1501
01:15:26,360 --> 01:15:29,240
Speaker 2: all women collective providing safe for legal abortions and to

1502
01:15:29,280 --> 01:15:33,040
Speaker 2: the people of Chicago, which is it's pretty fucking cool. Yes,

1503
01:15:33,880 --> 01:15:35,800
Speaker 2: do you have any like final thoughts for today or

1504
01:15:36,000 --> 01:15:36,920
Speaker 2: do you want to know?

1505
01:15:37,200 --> 01:15:39,280
Speaker 3: I'm just so excited that we're talking more about this.

1506
01:15:39,640 --> 01:15:43,839
Speaker 3: I discovering all these things being on an intersectional feminist

1507
01:15:43,880 --> 01:15:46,640
Speaker 3: show and coming to like, yes, let's keep talking about it.

1508
01:15:46,760 --> 01:15:49,320
Speaker 3: This is amazing. I love it. But yeah, but being

1509
01:15:49,360 --> 01:15:53,000
Speaker 3: realistic about you know, it wasn't glamour and it wasn't

1510
01:15:53,880 --> 01:15:56,760
Speaker 3: as easy obviously as it should be. And this is

1511
01:15:56,800 --> 01:16:01,000
Speaker 3: the problem when we have limited access or no access,

1512
01:16:01,120 --> 01:16:04,200
Speaker 3: and then when we start criminalizing people try to just live.

1513
01:16:04,520 --> 01:16:07,320
Speaker 3: Like that's just totally but I'm excited that we are

1514
01:16:07,360 --> 01:16:07,880
Speaker 3: talking about it.

1515
01:16:08,040 --> 01:16:10,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And I really want to, like, whenever possible,

1516
01:16:10,720 --> 01:16:12,040
Speaker 2: I really want to do like a warts and all

1517
01:16:12,160 --> 01:16:14,080
Speaker 2: version of the show, because like when you hold up

1518
01:16:14,080 --> 01:16:16,360
Speaker 2: people as heroes and they're like this person was perfect,

1519
01:16:16,680 --> 01:16:18,400
Speaker 2: and you're like, well, I'm not perfect. I can't be

1520
01:16:18,479 --> 01:16:20,960
Speaker 2: a hero, you know, and it's like no, like these

1521
01:16:21,000 --> 01:16:24,040
Speaker 2: people like got lots of things wrong and they just

1522
01:16:24,200 --> 01:16:27,360
Speaker 2: did amazing shit anyway, right, Yeah.

1523
01:16:27,160 --> 01:16:29,360
Speaker 1: And nobody's perfect besides.

1524
01:16:29,080 --> 01:16:33,560
Speaker 3: Dogs, correct, besides dogs, And my dog's a dick. But

1525
01:16:33,680 --> 01:16:38,559
Speaker 3: I love her, but yeah, on top of the I'm honest,

1526
01:16:39,160 --> 01:16:44,720
Speaker 3: we're honest about it. But yeah, she's the best part perfect. Yeah.

1527
01:16:45,280 --> 01:16:49,120
Speaker 2: Sure, So he gets angrier and angrier at the idea

1528
01:16:49,160 --> 01:16:50,439
Speaker 2: that the dog might not be perfect.

1529
01:16:50,920 --> 01:16:53,400
Speaker 3: No, you can't say it, you can't, don't say it,

1530
01:16:54,160 --> 01:16:57,040
Speaker 3: but yeah, like I think, And that's the thing is like, honestly,

1531
01:16:57,160 --> 01:16:59,519
Speaker 3: what comes down to what I love discovering and I

1532
01:16:59,560 --> 01:17:01,400
Speaker 3: know we're gonna keep talking about it, but about these

1533
01:17:01,479 --> 01:17:03,640
Speaker 3: cool people is that it wasn't that they wanted to

1534
01:17:03,680 --> 01:17:05,639
Speaker 3: be a hero and that they didn't do anything wrong

1535
01:17:05,680 --> 01:17:08,880
Speaker 3: before or don't have ron perspectives or may have misspoke.

1536
01:17:09,640 --> 01:17:12,040
Speaker 3: It's just that they saw a need and they did

1537
01:17:12,120 --> 01:17:14,640
Speaker 3: something about it, Poe. And that's what we get to

1538
01:17:14,680 --> 01:17:19,880
Speaker 3: celebrate totally, and you can celebrate more with us on

1539
01:17:20,120 --> 01:17:23,439
Speaker 3: the part two of this two part series on Wednesday,

1540
01:17:23,720 --> 01:17:26,000
Speaker 3: when we're going to talk in more detail about exactly

1541
01:17:26,080 --> 01:17:28,519
Speaker 3: what services they offered and how it all went down

1542
01:17:29,760 --> 01:17:31,960
Speaker 3: and some of the other people who've taken up the

1543
01:17:32,080 --> 01:17:34,000
Speaker 3: torch in the decades since them.

1544
01:17:34,520 --> 01:17:36,880
Speaker 1: Samantha, anything you want to plug before we head out?

1545
01:17:37,439 --> 01:17:40,200
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, So if this interest you and you like

1546
01:17:40,280 --> 01:17:43,880
Speaker 3: to learn more about women in history and the intersectionality

1547
01:17:43,920 --> 01:17:46,160
Speaker 3: of it all, you should come listen to Stuff Mom

1548
01:17:46,280 --> 01:17:48,360
Speaker 3: Never told You, which you can also find on the

1549
01:17:48,439 --> 01:17:51,960
Speaker 3: iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can

1550
01:17:52,040 --> 01:17:54,920
Speaker 3: follow us Stuff Mom Never Told You on Twitter and

1551
01:17:55,160 --> 01:17:59,320
Speaker 3: on Instagram. You could also follow me McVeigh Sam I

1552
01:17:59,400 --> 01:18:03,519
Speaker 3: Believe is Instagram and then Sam McVeigh on Twitter. Y'all,

1553
01:18:03,680 --> 01:18:07,759
Speaker 3: I'm struggling. I'm not really active, but sometimes I exist.

1554
01:18:09,120 --> 01:18:12,599
Speaker 1: There's a very cute dog picture on your Instagram where

1555
01:18:12,680 --> 01:18:16,880
Speaker 1: you're wearing matching Halloween outfits. So what I've become, that's

1556
01:18:17,120 --> 01:18:19,160
Speaker 1: that's what I would like to plug at the end.

1557
01:18:19,240 --> 01:18:20,400
Speaker 1: Here is that photo?

1558
01:18:21,520 --> 01:18:25,840
Speaker 3: You're pumpkins. Yeah, anyways, we'll see, we'll see, We'll see

1559
01:18:25,880 --> 01:18:27,479
Speaker 3: y'all Wednesday. Yeah.

1560
01:18:31,640 --> 01:18:34,120
Speaker 1: Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff is a production of

1561
01:18:34,200 --> 01:18:37,240
Speaker 1: cool Zone Media. For more podcasts and cool Zone Media,

1562
01:18:37,439 --> 01:18:40,479
Speaker 1: visit our website cool Zonemedia dot com, or check us

1563
01:18:40,479 --> 01:18:43,599
Speaker 1: out on the iHeartRadio app I'm a Podcast, or wherever

1564
01:18:43,680 --> 01:18:44,879
Speaker 1: when you get your podcasts,