Speaker 1: Welcome to How to Money. I'm Joel and I am Matt,
Speaker 1: and today we're talking about preparing for a layoff title wave.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and maybe we're being hyperbolic here when we say
Speaker 2: tidle wave, but really we chose title wave because I
Speaker 2: know that you like title waves. Joel, do you talk
Speaker 2: You mentioned still how I want to die. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: you mentioned how that is how you want to go,
Speaker 2: except for the last time. Well I pointed out the
Speaker 2: fact that then I would drown there are really tidal ways,
Speaker 2: or you mentioned tsunamis, and I'm like, dude, tsunamis are
Speaker 2: just kind of like the gradual. We're not gradual, but
Speaker 2: it's a quickly raising of water off if there's is
Speaker 2: caused by the earthquake, giant title wave. I don't want
Speaker 2: to die by driving thinking of it slams me to
Speaker 2: the ground, and that's how I go. That's what I want.
Speaker 2: You wouldn't get coop slammed. Yes, it's hundred percent. You
Speaker 2: don't want that, dude, that's terrible. No, no, no, You're
Speaker 2: you're thinking of what was it Interstellar which space movie
Speaker 2: and the landing on the planet and they're looking for
Speaker 2: the mountains and there were not mountains that like that
Speaker 2: that whole scene and they're just like thousands of feet tall.
Speaker 2: That scene kind of blew my mind. But that's what
Speaker 2: you're thinking of, that's the way to go. No, we
Speaker 2: are going to talk about preparing for potentially getting laid off.
Speaker 2: There's a lot that's happening in our current labor market.
Speaker 2: There have been some rumblings, and we're going to get
Speaker 2: to those and uh, specifically the steps that you need
Speaker 2: to take both with your career but also with your
Speaker 2: finances to make sure that you are ready to weather
Speaker 2: that storm. Yeah, when it does arrive.
Speaker 1: For sure. Okay, quick question for you before we get
Speaker 1: to that. The other day, so Selma, my nine year old,
Speaker 1: she we talk about money here and there and kind
Speaker 1: of trying to help her understanding as she grows up, spending, saving,
Speaker 1: even starting to talk about investing too. But the other day,
Speaker 1: randomly at breakfast, she was like, so, how much money
Speaker 1: do we have?
Speaker 2: Dad?
Speaker 1: Like overall, not like how much is in your wallet
Speaker 1: or but like like what is your network? She was
Speaker 1: asking She didn't have that terminology, but that's basically what
Speaker 1: she was asking me, and I was to give her
Speaker 1: a number. Yeah, I would have been hesitant took toy
Speaker 1: didn't but okay, I'm curious that you didn't do it.
Speaker 1: How would you respond to that question.
Speaker 2: I would not have given it either. So I don't
Speaker 2: see there being much good coming from a kid and
Speaker 2: knowing how much money you got in the bank. Okay,
Speaker 2: so I think I would be funny about it. I'd
Speaker 2: be like, oh, we got ten million dollars in the bank,
Speaker 2: which by the way, is not anywhere near accurate.
Speaker 1: Sound that sounds right from what I've seen.
Speaker 2: But no, I think, like, honestly, I question like that.
Speaker 2: Maybe it's born out of curiosity, but I think oftentimes,
Speaker 2: like kids are talking at school and maybe there's like
Speaker 2: this dumb competition and kid they're trying to like one
Speaker 2: up each other, and I don't see that leading to
Speaker 2: anywhere good necessarily. And we've talked about how leaving a
Speaker 2: fortune to your kids and how like more and more
Speaker 2: I'm thinking that that is not something I want to
Speaker 2: do because of the sense of entitlements and the ability,
Speaker 2: the potential ability for that to keep your kids from
Speaker 2: like becoming their own person and like going out and
Speaker 2: making something taking risks that whole thing. I feel like
Speaker 2: it could stemy their personal growth, is what I'm saying.
Speaker 1: I don't remember who I was talking to, but I
Speaker 1: was talking to someone the other day and we were
Speaker 1: discussing how the best time for a parent to give
Speaker 1: their kids money is in their thirties, like mid thirties
Speaker 1: in particular, when they're having kids, buying a house, all
Speaker 1: that kind of stuff, and by then, hopefully they're solidified
Speaker 1: in their career and kind of in their their look.
Speaker 1: E think they're the kind of person they're going to be,
Speaker 1: and so it's not some sort of massive endowment or
Speaker 1: bequeathments of like millions of dollars down the road when
Speaker 1: that person is fifties sixties, it really helps them in
Speaker 1: a time where that money is most useful.
Speaker 2: But it's basically like some down payment money for that house,
Speaker 2: that first house. Yeah, see that being pretty helpful.
Speaker 1: But it's also staving off entitlement, right like where if
Speaker 1: you give it to too early, maybe they miss out
Speaker 1: on some of that. But yeah, you're right, No.
Speaker 2: That's what I'm thinking of it. And even just knowing
Speaker 2: that that money is there, I think could potentially keep
Speaker 2: kids from really going out there doing something awesome with it.
Speaker 1: So I think the key is, like you said, like
Speaker 1: kind of to be coy about it and not reveal
Speaker 1: a whole lot of information, like, hey, we have enough,
Speaker 1: We've got a roof over our head. That was the
Speaker 1: kind of the discussion that we like, you don't think
Speaker 1: you shouldn't have to worry you, you don't need to
Speaker 1: worry about anything.
Speaker 2: Totally, we were doing great.
Speaker 1: But at the same time, like, I don't want her
Speaker 1: to think that we've got you know, millions in the
Speaker 1: bank to even though we have billions.
Speaker 2: Right exactly, Well, no, I totally agree. I think it
Speaker 2: is important to make sure that they understand that they're
Speaker 2: cared for, that they are being provided for specifically right
Speaker 2: and so not only in the time and the intention
Speaker 2: that we give them, but also the amounting the amount
Speaker 2: of money that that we have on hand, providing that stability.
Speaker 2: I think that's definitely a very important thing to communicate.
Speaker 1: Good question, so exactly, you know, I love that she
Speaker 1: asked it, and I don't want to shame her shut
Speaker 1: her down with ye which, like it provides another chance
Speaker 1: to have a conversation, even if I'm not giving her
Speaker 1: the direct answer.
Speaker 2: That she's hoping for.
Speaker 1: So all those little money combos with your kids matter
Speaker 1: and involving them more in those money decisions. I don't know,
Speaker 1: maybe we should do a whole other episode soon about
Speaker 1: how we talk to kids about money. It's been a minute, yeah,
Speaker 1: but Matt, let's mention the beer that we're having on
Speaker 1: this episode. This one is called Absolute Brightness. It's Biology
Speaker 1: Brewing out of Tampa. Big thanks to Jamie and her
Speaker 1: husband for sending us a couple beers. We appreciate it.
Speaker 2: That's right. Looking forward to sharing our thoughts on this
Speaker 2: one at the end of the episode. I kind of
Speaker 2: I dig the label. It's super basic, but it reminds
Speaker 2: me of a Tycho album cover. You ever listen to Taiko,
Speaker 2: Not really but electronic ambient artist, But it's got that
Speaker 2: vibe for sure. Yeah. And it's like a digital analog
Speaker 2: look going on, which, yeah, it kind of summarizes my
Speaker 2: style perhaps. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Well, and if you follow us on Instagram at how
Speaker 1: to Money Pod, you can you can see all of
Speaker 1: our beer cans, label labels, all the stuff we're drinking,
Speaker 1: amongst other things. We've been creating a lot more content
Speaker 1: on Instagram, by the way, it's not just beer cans. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's actual money content. There's actually some yeah that can
Speaker 1: helpup full infographics up there as well, instead of following
Speaker 1: people taking fake pictures on private jets, and you can
Speaker 1: follow us for actual money saving info there. But let's
Speaker 1: get onto the subject of handmat. We're talking about preparing
Speaker 1: for a potential layoff, and I was just talking about
Speaker 1: Selma and it actually prepared for this episode made me
Speaker 1: think about how each of the kids I have, they're
Speaker 1: all unique, and I think you have it in your
Speaker 1: mind that you're going to be able to have a
Speaker 1: big impact over how they turn out. And I don't
Speaker 1: want to say that you don't have any impact over
Speaker 1: how they turn out, but it's amazing how each kid
Speaker 1: comes with its own their own distinct personality built in
Speaker 1: kind of baked in the genes from the get go,
Speaker 1: and they just have like certain hardwired predilections right that
Speaker 1: we can't quite override. And so even though Emily and
Speaker 1: I were trying to be intentional about what we're teaching them,
Speaker 1: it doesn't mean that we can mold them in a
Speaker 1: way that's kind of antithetical to that nature that they're
Speaker 1: born with, and that nature versus nurture debate is endlessen
Speaker 1: It's hard to know exactly how much can be chalked
Speaker 1: up to either one of those things. But even given
Speaker 1: kind of their their disposition, when they you know, kind
Speaker 1: of come on the scene, we still have the ability
Speaker 1: to mold them in some ways, in important ways. And
Speaker 1: so there's a lot that I want my kids to
Speaker 1: know before they fly the coop, before they head out
Speaker 1: on their own. I want to prepare them for a
Speaker 1: variety of circumstances that they might face. And even if
Speaker 1: that process is vastly different than like updating a software package, right,
Speaker 1: it's it takes so much more intentionality and effort. Only
Speaker 1: it was that easy, I know, right, kind of like
Speaker 1: Neo and the Matrix and you upload something new and
Speaker 1: then they just like.
Speaker 2: Boom, they get it. You're talking back, What do you
Speaker 2: just get over here? Let me plug you in, press
Speaker 2: a couple of buttons and fix you up. I mean,
Speaker 2: those lessons like my input Emily and ized input, It's
Speaker 2: still it still matters. And so yet the same thing
Speaker 2: is true. I would say, when someone loses a job,
Speaker 2: it's hard to know when or if it's coming, but
Speaker 2: we still have the ability to prepare. There's like kind
Speaker 2: of this element that's out of our control, this element
Speaker 2: that's in our control, and we want to talk about
Speaker 2: the element that's in our control today. That's right. Yeah,
Speaker 2: And we have a limited timeframe, right, Like we have
Speaker 2: this window where we do have that input. This actually,
Speaker 2: it kind of reminds me of my favorite parenting adage,
Speaker 2: which is to prepare the kid, or prepare the child
Speaker 2: for the road. Don't prepare the road for the child.
Speaker 2: And we don't know exactly like deep sun, you like that?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Have you have you heard that before? Oh? Really, it's like,
Speaker 2: I don't know where it came from. It's not like
Speaker 2: an individual. I think it comes from like culture specifically.
Speaker 2: The thing is like, we don't know exactly the types
Speaker 2: of different crazy things that our kids are going to
Speaker 2: encounter in the world. But the time to equip them
Speaker 2: is now. And the truth is that layoffs are happening,
Speaker 2: and the time to prepare for that tidal wave, the
Speaker 2: potential tidal wave is now. The FED rate hikes they
Speaker 2: have continued to create more tightness in the economy. The
Speaker 2: labor market. It's been pretty resilient for a long time, honestly,
Speaker 2: but that booming job market might be coming to an end.
Speaker 2: Maybe not abruptly, but it might kind of fizzle out
Speaker 2: a little bit, you know, like these all time unemployment lows.
Speaker 2: They can't continue forever basically, but that could potentially lead
Speaker 2: to you being without a job. The R word recession,
Speaker 2: like that's being thrown around again as well. So will
Speaker 2: it won't it? Is it gonna be a soft landing?
Speaker 2: Who actually knows?
Speaker 1: I don't think you can actually say the R word matter.
Speaker 1: It's kind of like Valdimore. You're not supposed to say
Speaker 1: it all the way out. That's your contrary.
Speaker 2: It's funny. It's funny that you mentioned that because literally
Speaker 2: that's we are at that part in book seven. So
Speaker 2: longtime listeners will know. We've been reading through all seven
Speaker 2: books out loud with the kids, and they just discovered
Speaker 2: that taboo of saying his name in the seventh book
Speaker 2: and where it's times from. Well, no, like in the
Speaker 2: earlier books, they don't like saying his name, but in
Speaker 2: book seven, literally if you say it, it it lets
Speaker 2: the death leaders know where he is. Such a slight
Speaker 2: spoiler if you read the book, doesn't ruin anything, so
Speaker 2: you'll get there. But you know, even if the economy
Speaker 2: as a whole. Even if it doesn't tank anytime soon,
Speaker 2: there is always the possibility that your company or even
Speaker 2: your specific department, that they could be looking to cut back.
Speaker 2: And so we're gonna offer our thoughts on what it
Speaker 2: looks like to prepare now making yourself not necessarily lay
Speaker 2: off proof, but kind of like like layoff resistant, right.
Speaker 1: I like that makes me think of like waterproof versus
Speaker 1: water resistant. It's like two different terming out, Like if
Speaker 1: you have to watch it's waterproof, it's like IP six
Speaker 1: rated or whatever. You can die like its way down
Speaker 1: deep and it's going to be fine, right, But if
Speaker 1: you have one of the water resistance and you try
Speaker 1: to like scuba die with it, a thing's going.
Speaker 2: To be It's like, no, you're broke. As a joke,
Speaker 2: you're only good for your thirty minutes at three feet.
Speaker 1: Yes, sorry right, well yeah, and so it's important to
Speaker 1: note that yet this isn't going to lay off proof
Speaker 1: your abil, but it is going to make you more
Speaker 1: less likely to be the first person on the chopping block.
Speaker 1: But it's also going to make it so if you
Speaker 1: do get laid off, hopefully the things we talk about
Speaker 1: in this episode, so you're more prepared to handle it.
Speaker 1: And I don't know, maybe there are some jobs that
Speaker 1: are actually layoff proof Matt, like tenured professors in combat
Speaker 1: congress people. Those are people that I think, but there
Speaker 1: aren't many jobs like that that there's very almost no
Speaker 1: potential for you to lose your job. But let's talk
Speaker 1: about which industries are most at risk right now. This
Speaker 1: can act like an additional heads up for some folks.
Speaker 1: And so according to think tank the Conference Board, IT jobs,
Speaker 1: transportation and warehousing, and construction are the sectors most at
Speaker 1: risk of layoffs right now. And beyond that, the tech
Speaker 1: sector has already been slashing its workforce in a big way,
Speaker 1: and there might be even more to comme It looks
Speaker 1: like there's there's even been more recent movements in the
Speaker 1: tech sector to eliminate jobs. So yeah, if you if
Speaker 1: you're in one of these arenas, you should probably be
Speaker 1: even more aware of the possibility of a layoff coming
Speaker 1: down the pike.
Speaker 2: Specifically in IT and technology right like didn't Meta call
Speaker 2: twenty twenty three the Year of Efficiency made investors happy
Speaker 2: because they had been taking on so many new employees
Speaker 2: massive losses. Yeah, so after you know, like it was
Speaker 2: basically like a post pandemic hiring boom, where like there
Speaker 2: were a lot of folks who apparently were on the
Speaker 2: payroll without actually having to, you know, anything to do,
Speaker 2: and like, these are folks and they admitted to that.
Speaker 1: Well, some of them were crazy posting videos about here's
Speaker 1: what I do when I get to work. I get
Speaker 1: my latte, but not really actually doing anywhere. We've got
Speaker 1: like a place you can a massage or like, And
Speaker 1: I was, what are these what are the people at
Speaker 1: Twitter doing all day? And no wonder it can survive
Speaker 1: with so many less employees, That's right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So all of these different tech companies with way
Speaker 2: too much money, they're finally cutting back. Google they recently
Speaker 2: cut twelve thousand jobs. Amazon they're laying off twenty seven
Speaker 2: thousand numbers of their team. Ten thousand folks are being
Speaker 2: laid off from Microsoft and Boeing and those are some
Speaker 2: hard numbers. But then like Ernst and Young Accenture, Disney
Speaker 2: they just announced that there are going to be massive
Speaker 2: layoffs coming here soon as well. How to money, they're
Speaker 2: even laying off a couple guys, just one of THO hosts.
Speaker 2: I'm not sure what you shoot one of us has
Speaker 2: to outrund the other one. Hopefully hunger games, we'll get
Speaker 2: to keep our jobs. But essentially the question here is,
Speaker 2: are these tech companies the canary and the coal mine? Right?
Speaker 2: Are they the cutting are they the leading edge of
Speaker 2: more job losses that are likely going to come? Well
Speaker 2: it's hard to say, but again, a record low three
Speaker 2: and a half percent unemployment rate, it is not likely
Speaker 2: going to last forever. That's why we want to make
Speaker 2: sure that you are thinking ahead to this.
Speaker 1: Now, well, let's talk too about the ever changing reality
Speaker 1: of what layoffs look like, Matt, because the way they're
Speaker 1: being conducted has changed massively, really just in the past
Speaker 1: three years. And oh yeah, virtual layoffs happening more and more.
Speaker 1: Those twelve thousand Google jobs, for instance, those folks found
Speaker 1: out via an email, which like just didn't really happen
Speaker 1: ten years ago, and some of those people had worked
Speaker 1: at Google for decades. Can you imagine how demoralizing that
Speaker 1: would be to be somewhere for twenty years? You can
Speaker 1: you wake up to an email and you're like, oh,
Speaker 1: I guess I'm out of a job.
Speaker 2: Like that sucks. That sucks. That shows a last one
Speaker 2: thing if you'd just been hired like six months ago,
Speaker 2: Like maybe I get it, but I don't know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, shows a lack of appreciation for the people who
Speaker 1: have helped you get where you are. Sure, it's just
Speaker 1: not cool, and it's especially in Google's case, it might
Speaker 1: be a little evil, which is kind of what their
Speaker 1: whole thing is against their own mantra. It used to
Speaker 1: be their mantra, used to be the slow So yeah,
Speaker 1: they've changed it now. It's understandably, so it's okay to
Speaker 1: be a little evil, Yeah, because it sounds like they
Speaker 1: are going down that path. But layoffs are just happening
Speaker 1: in a more impersonal way, which kind of makes sense
Speaker 1: given the work from home environment that we're in. When
Speaker 1: you're hired remotely, you're gonna be fired remotely, Like no
Speaker 1: one's gonna hop a plane show up at your door
Speaker 1: and tell you that you're losing your job. It can
Speaker 1: I think you can feel like it's adding insult to injury,
Speaker 1: which can make it more of an emotional experience than
Speaker 1: it already would be though, And so dealing with the
Speaker 1: aftermath of a layoff when you're also kind of emotionally
Speaker 1: reeling can be can be a really difficult thing to do.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And then like, I don't want to be a
Speaker 2: doomsayer here, but we're not even talking about what AI
Speaker 2: or like the large language models might do to the
Speaker 2: tech industry right when it comes like programmers, Like why
Speaker 2: would you hire ten programmers when you can just get
Speaker 2: the code you need in the blink of an eye.
Speaker 1: Perhaps, Well, and there's just a whole lot of predictions
Speaker 1: about what AI is going to do to work moving forward.
Speaker 2: Ye, a whole lot of yes, I swear. So, even
Speaker 2: aside from the tech sector, this is something that I
Speaker 2: think a lot a lot of us, even you and
Speaker 2: I should be there should be something that we are
Speaker 2: thinking about.
Speaker 1: Sure. Yeah, it makes me think of a great quote
Speaker 1: I saw from Alison Schreger recently, former guest of the show.
Speaker 1: She was specifically talking about kind of the impact of
Speaker 1: AI on the workforce moving forward, and I thought this
Speaker 1: was what I thought, this was brilliant. She said, if
Speaker 1: the past is an indication of the future, big new technology,
Speaker 1: she tends to come for the mediocre first, so it's
Speaker 1: critical to add some human element and be good at it.
Speaker 1: She said, I anticipate that in person skills will be
Speaker 1: super valuable. And so well knowing how to think, and
Speaker 1: so I yeah, if you want to beat what AI
Speaker 1: has coming for us, and it's coming, I think being
Speaker 1: better at what we do is going to be of
Speaker 1: massive importance as we try to stave off AI coming
Speaker 1: for our stuff.
Speaker 2: But simultaneously, this is where I feel like we might
Speaker 2: be getting a little like we might be jumping the
Speaker 2: gun a little bit, because folks were also saying that
Speaker 2: about like when the lockdowns were happening during the pandemic,
Speaker 2: Basically everyone was saying that, like we're never going to
Speaker 2: be hanging out in person again, like all offices are
Speaker 2: shut down, virtual learning, virtual doctors. In fact, is we're
Speaker 2: all going to move to the metaverse and Facebook. They
Speaker 2: double down on that, didn't they, And that's actually that
Speaker 2: hasn't been the case. So yeah, it'll be interesting to
Speaker 2: see what actually appans own.
Speaker 1: I will say Allison was not dooming gloom in that
Speaker 1: newsletter she sent out, and a lot of it she
Speaker 1: was saying, we adapt as humans, and I think this
Speaker 1: is actually going to be for the best positive. I
Speaker 1: think she's right on that too. But I do think
Speaker 1: that the better we are at our jobs, the more
Speaker 1: it's going to help us when we try to avoid
Speaker 1: getting laid off, especially when AI can maybe do something
Speaker 1: cheaper and better.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and regarding the you know, you kind of touched
Speaker 2: on this, but regarding the like the virtual layoffs, I
Speaker 2: don't think it's the fact that they're virtual that I
Speaker 2: have a problem with. It's the fact that they're letting
Speaker 2: like hundreds and even like thousands of people go like
Speaker 2: at the same time on the same call. Like, that's
Speaker 2: the part of it that feels inhumane as opposed to
Speaker 2: the virtual. Because what you said I think is true,
Speaker 2: which is if you're hired virtually, I think it's okay
Speaker 2: that you're fired virtually because it doesn't make sense necessarily
Speaker 2: for you to be called into the office that you've
Speaker 2: never been to before and they're going to take all
Speaker 2: of this time and you have to find a suit
Speaker 2: or at least some khakis or something in order to
Speaker 2: be presentable and around other employees. But it's it's less that,
Speaker 2: and it's it is it is more the mass aspect
Speaker 2: of it, right, Like it makes me think of food,
Speaker 2: like farming or like if you are a homesteader and
Speaker 2: you're raising chickens or a cow or or something like
Speaker 2: that it's okay to humanely slaughter an animal, like that's
Speaker 2: how we go about eating meat. But there's a big
Speaker 2: difference between that and like what Upston Sinclair wrote about
Speaker 2: in the Jungle, Yes, right, with like the meat industry
Speaker 2: and some of these mass layoffs, it feels more like that, yes,
Speaker 2: versus the humane kind way of going about raising animals exactly.
Speaker 1: And if you can get hired remotely, you're gonna get
Speaker 1: you're gonna get let go remotely. I think it just
Speaker 1: makes sense. But you're right, there's a human way to
Speaker 1: do it, and then there's like a really crummy way
Speaker 1: to do it. And hopefully I feel like we a
Speaker 1: lot of these employers who have handled it poorly are
Speaker 1: getting written up in kind of major publications about their
Speaker 1: firing processes, and they deserve to kind of get raked
Speaker 1: over the coals to a certain degree, and hopefully it
Speaker 1: puts other people on notice before they start applied to
Speaker 1: that company in the future. Like wait a second, maybe
Speaker 1: they don't treat their employees all that well, so but
Speaker 1: real quickly. Matt also wanted to mention this talking about
Speaker 1: layoffs and the impact that I can have. I have
Speaker 1: personal experience with this and not from me getting lad on,
Speaker 1: for from when my dad got laid off when I
Speaker 1: was a kid, and it was just such a tough
Speaker 1: time for our family. And I think there are ways
Speaker 1: that by pre planning, thinking about it with some foresight,
Speaker 1: it could have made that landing a whole lot softer.
Speaker 1: But instead it was really difficult, and it felt like
Speaker 1: it had a reverberating impact for years and even decades.
Speaker 1: So I think like a layoff can be one of
Speaker 1: those things that just shocks your family to the core.
Speaker 1: And I don't want that to be the case. For
Speaker 1: anybody out there who's listening. I want you to do
Speaker 1: the proper prep so that you are ready should the
Speaker 1: worst case scenario happen. Like layoffs, they're never fun, but
Speaker 1: if you're in a solid financial position, it can feel
Speaker 1: more like a blip in your career than even something catastrophic.
Speaker 1: Like I was mentioning, but we're jumping ahead. We're going
Speaker 1: to talk about steps you can take to prevent getting
Speaker 1: laid off. We want to talk about that, and then
Speaker 1: later we're also going to talk about what you need
Speaker 1: to do if you're in the middle of getting laid off.
Speaker 1: We'll give our thoughts on all that stuff.
Speaker 2: Right after this, all right, we are back and man,
Speaker 2: you know we've just talked about why thinking through layoffs,
Speaker 2: why that should be something that is on your radar.
Speaker 2: Now let's talk about career steps to take prior to
Speaker 2: a layoff. And hopefully you are still gainfully employed, and
Speaker 2: if so, it is now time to make some hay
Speaker 2: while that sun is shining, and a part of making
Speaker 2: that hay is becoming more valuable to your current employer.
Speaker 1: By the way, can you not make hay when the
Speaker 1: sun is not around?
Speaker 2: Is that the thing not according to the old braide
Speaker 2: I standing, Or actually it's not about making hay while
Speaker 2: the sun still shining, because that assumes that at some
Speaker 2: point the sun's gonna go down, which obviously it does
Speaker 2: in life. But what we're saying is, le let's find
Speaker 2: a way to keep that sun in the sky. If
Speaker 2: you're wanting to stay at your current employer so that
Speaker 2: you can continue making hay that day, you want it
Speaker 2: to be like we're running with that metaphor a little
Speaker 2: too little to be.
Speaker 1: Like Norway in the summer when the sun never goes down.
Speaker 2: That's right, Yeah, this could help you to avoid unemployment altogether.
Speaker 2: And so by making yourself more valuable, what that means
Speaker 2: is just stepping up. It means taking on new roles
Speaker 2: at work. We essentially want you to be indispensable. Basically,
Speaker 2: we want you to be the person that your boss
Speaker 2: can't live without. And honestly, if you really like your job,
Speaker 2: the best role might be the one that you already have.
Speaker 2: And so it's not about finding greener pastures. It's about
Speaker 2: staying put and maintaining those relationships and maintaining that career path.
Speaker 2: And again we sort of mentioned this before, but you
Speaker 2: can't guarantee that you're going to be invincible by becoming
Speaker 2: more valuable. But you can make yourself way more layoff resistant.
Speaker 1: Yes, yes you can. And for virtual workers, by the way,
Speaker 1: this might be harder to do again because of the
Speaker 1: new work environment and so many more people working from
Speaker 1: home coming in less or hybrid work. Even it can
Speaker 1: be the case that you're out of sight, out of mind,
Speaker 1: and that is not the place you want to be
Speaker 1: in because that makes you easier to chop right. And
Speaker 1: so if you're never in the office, it might be
Speaker 1: a good idea to get in there more. If you're
Speaker 1: doing video conferencing regularly with other people that you work with,
Speaker 1: in particular people that are higher up, hop on the
Speaker 1: call a little early. I think it shows intentionality and
Speaker 1: it's a good way to get FaceTime with bosses and management.
Speaker 1: Makes me think of our conversation with Alex about negotiation,
Speaker 1: Matt and she said, Alex Carter, Yeah, she called it
Speaker 1: the meeting before the meeting, and that you can have
Speaker 1: a meaningful impact on how other people perceive and view
Speaker 1: you and view your work just by being more present
Speaker 1: in those spaces.
Speaker 2: That's true. Yeah, just the ability to get on there
Speaker 2: and joke around a little bit, as opposed to getting
Speaker 2: on right when the meeting starts, where folks are immediately
Speaker 2: getting down to business. Yeah. And a part of making
Speaker 2: yourself more valuable is acquiring new skills, because you know,
Speaker 2: employers are going to be less likely to let an
Speaker 2: employee EGO who just went through a series of expensive
Speaker 2: training right because well, one like it's it's likely cost
Speaker 2: them some money. So you can essentially use the sunt
Speaker 2: cost fallacy to your advantage here. But two, like forget
Speaker 2: what your employer you know, just pay like forget the past,
Speaker 2: Like you are literally becoming more valuable.
Speaker 1: To them them and on the open market, if you know,
Speaker 1: for everybody.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, but I mean just moving forward and looking
Speaker 2: to the future, you're likely going to cause your employer
Speaker 2: to be more profitable, and so they're going to want
Speaker 2: to keep you on. You know, if this is something
Speaker 2: that your employer offers, if they offer career advancement perks,
Speaker 2: take advantage while you've still got access to those perks.
Speaker 2: And this is I think the right attitude to take.
Speaker 2: Even if your employer isn't looking to fire folks, the
Speaker 2: ability to become more valuable, perhaps a vie for a
Speaker 2: new position they're at your company, to potentially get a raise.
Speaker 2: These are all the kind of steps that we want
Speaker 2: you taken regardless.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, And so think about somebody doing the barista
Speaker 1: thing at Starbucks, Matt, and they have access to a
Speaker 1: completely free education at Arizona State University online, doesn't matter
Speaker 1: where you live in the country, and you could just
Speaker 1: kind of say, eh, that sounds like a nice perk,
Speaker 1: but I'm not going to take advantage. Or you can
Speaker 1: make yourself more valuable to Starbucks by getting that education.
Speaker 1: But at the same time, while they're putting the bill,
Speaker 1: if for some reason Starbucks says it's a layoff time,
Speaker 1: and you are one of those people that gets asked, well,
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, you're more valuable too to anybody
Speaker 1: else out there, any other employer, because you've taken advantage
Speaker 1: of that perk. It was free, and you gained yourself
Speaker 1: a whole lot more in skills and knowledge. That just
Speaker 1: makes you more valuable. It beefs up your resume. And
Speaker 1: so that's the next thing that people need to think
Speaker 1: about when they're trying to prepare themselves in advance for
Speaker 1: a potential layoff, is to get their resume in order.
Speaker 1: Do it before the layoff happens. The same thing with
Speaker 1: your LinkedIn. Start beefing that up. Start making some changes
Speaker 1: and improvements and updating things before you get into a
Speaker 1: situation where you are scrambling because now you're out of
Speaker 1: a job and you're trying to fix all these things
Speaker 1: on the fly. And so why wait until you need
Speaker 1: a job to get those things up to stuff a
Speaker 1: couple of evenings working hard and maybe starting to post
Speaker 1: weekly little things on LinkedIn, becoming kind of an influencer
Speaker 1: of sorts in your space. Right, I don't mean influencer
Speaker 1: in the way that you're buying Gucci handbags and talking
Speaker 1: about them or whatever. But like you can up your visability,
Speaker 1: that's your business. If that's your business, that's fine. Like
Speaker 1: if you are like a fashion fashionista fashion like on
Speaker 1: that's cool. But upping your visibility to people who are
Speaker 1: in your realm, in your sphere can help you out
Speaker 1: in a big way. And so The Wall Street Journal
Speaker 1: recently had an article about whether a resume passes the
Speaker 1: six second test is what they called it. Yeah, they
Speaker 1: basically said, that's how long you have to make an impression,
Speaker 1: and so don't be dull. Use bullet points to highlight
Speaker 1: the absolute must knows about you. Single spacing your resume
Speaker 1: is going to get it tossed in the trash can
Speaker 1: along with a bunch of others. Make it spicy and interesting.
Speaker 1: I'm not talking in like George Santo's esque, lying about
Speaker 1: what you've accomplished, but I am saying, present the most
Speaker 1: interesting information first in a very readable formatted way.
Speaker 2: I found it a nonprofit that saves dogs or whatever.
Speaker 1: It's so many lives, so many lives.
Speaker 2: A liar. And they also mentioned too leaving out the
Speaker 2: professional summary, like the introductory paragraph two versus just like
Speaker 2: getting down to the facts finding ways to defy your
Speaker 2: achievements as opposed to more flowery language that describes all
Speaker 2: your different skill sets. But yes, definitely you want to
Speaker 2: get your resume in order. After that, you want to
Speaker 2: make sure that your network is solid as well. Friend
Speaker 2: of the show Jordan Harbinger, he says, to dig the
Speaker 2: well before you're thirsty. That's the best way to think
Speaker 2: about your how you should be approaching your network.
Speaker 1: By the way, I love that quote because think about
Speaker 1: when you're thirsty or when you're angry or something. All right,
Speaker 1: Like the things that you will do to score some
Speaker 1: food or to score some water are vastly different than
Speaker 1: when you're not thirsty, and so true. It just changes
Speaker 1: your whole approach to it. You're likely to do better
Speaker 1: work and you're likely to be a less frantic.
Speaker 2: So yeah, it just makes sense to change the dynamic. Yeah,
Speaker 2: before the catastroh hit. We love it. Yeah, So what
Speaker 2: that means is just reaching out to folks in your
Speaker 2: network who could help you in case of a work
Speaker 2: emergency before you're in one. That is incredibly important. Just
Speaker 2: simply connecting with other folks who you respect who are
Speaker 2: doing some really cool stuff, send an email, offer a compliment,
Speaker 2: because you never know the impact of just something really
Speaker 2: small like that. Again with Alex Carter with her recently,
Speaker 2: so I think a lot of what she said is
Speaker 2: fresh on her minds. But in that conversation she talked
Speaker 2: about how she knows not just names and what people do,
Speaker 2: but birthdays. She knows kids' names of different folks in
Speaker 2: her network. She's not just friendly and amicable, She's found
Speaker 2: a way to make these folks friends. And I think,
Speaker 2: especially for a lot of folks who might be introverted,
Speaker 2: you might be thinking, dude, there's no way I'm going
Speaker 2: to do this. This is like so smarmy. Yes, but
Speaker 2: this is why we're saying to do this now before
Speaker 2: you are in need, because what feels more desperate, what
Speaker 2: feels grosser just reaching out to a bunch of randoms
Speaker 2: when you truly are in need, or just reaching out
Speaker 2: to them and being friendly. We're truly you are just
Speaker 2: reaching out to connect. Who knows you really might end
Speaker 2: up being friends with these folks, but you don't know
Speaker 2: because you haven't even given it a shot. Like we
Speaker 2: want you to be adventurous. It makes me. Think about
Speaker 2: like foods. If you never try a different food, well,
Speaker 2: how do you know you don't like it? You got
Speaker 2: to give it a shot. And so I think the
Speaker 2: same thing can be true when it comes to how
Speaker 2: it is that you approach your network. I think you're right.
Speaker 1: And I think a lot of people void networking because
Speaker 1: they think it is this smarmy, slick political style interaction
Speaker 1: that they have to have or they're trying to get
Speaker 1: something from somebody else. I think the exact opposite true
Speaker 1: is true. You can be genuine, you can be authentic,
Speaker 1: and you can just connect with people who are doing
Speaker 1: cool stuff, who you like and respect. It doesn't have
Speaker 1: to be and there don't have to be ulterior motives,
Speaker 1: and that is what makes networking so great and so powerful.
Speaker 2: Especially on the front end. Yes, exactly, you're in need.
Speaker 1: Exactly, and so you're building that network over time hoping
Speaker 1: that you don't ever have to tap it in need,
Speaker 1: but it will be there for you then if you're
Speaker 1: in need, because you have built something based on mutual
Speaker 1: respect and admiration.
Speaker 2: Totally all right.
Speaker 1: So those are some of the career steps that you
Speaker 1: need to take to prepare yourself for a potential layoff. Well,
Speaker 1: let's talk about some of the financial moves too, Matt,
Speaker 1: because obviously how to money, we got to talk about
Speaker 1: the specifically money side of things as well, and I
Speaker 1: think following through on some of the suggestions we just
Speaker 1: talked about will likely impact people's career even if they
Speaker 1: never get laid off.
Speaker 2: By the way, like, yeah, just generally speaking, these are
Speaker 2: good things. These are good practices.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it doesn't hurt to kind of do all
Speaker 1: those things even if you never get laid off. It's
Speaker 1: kind of like buying life insurance. You're like, ah, but
Speaker 1: I didn't die. What a waste of money, And it's like, well, no,
Speaker 1: these are all good moves. These are actually going to
Speaker 1: pay off more than that life insurance policy if you
Speaker 1: don't croak. But let's talk about some of those general
Speaker 1: financial steps that folks can take, and the first one
Speaker 1: is to make sure you have a fully funded emergency
Speaker 1: fund on hand. We talk about the very first money
Speaker 1: gear we discussed is having twenty four hundred and sixty
Speaker 1: seven dollars in the bank, which is a good first
Speaker 1: step to strive for if you're not there yet. But
Speaker 1: then we want people to actually have more money than
Speaker 1: that on hand, because that means less stress if paychecks
Speaker 1: stop coming. So if you're worried that a layoff could
Speaker 1: be in your near term future, it might make sense
Speaker 1: to dial back on retirement savings, even to beef up
Speaker 1: the amounts that you have in liquid savings in just
Speaker 1: a high yield savings account. And also one of the
Speaker 1: things I think that this does that's so powerful is
Speaker 1: if you do get laid off, the more money you
Speaker 1: have on hand, the more months of living expenses that
Speaker 1: you can fund. It means the more picky you can
Speaker 1: be about potential jobs that you might take. And I
Speaker 1: think some people when they get laid off, they're so
Speaker 1: itchy to get the next job and they take maybe
Speaker 1: an offer that's below them or they could have held
Speaker 1: out for something better, but they just didn't have the
Speaker 1: financial backing to make that a possibility.
Speaker 2: That's right. You have more cash in the bank means
Speaker 2: that gives you a leg up when it comes to
Speaker 2: negotiating some of the benefits that you might be able
Speaker 2: to score with that new employer.
Speaker 1: And some people really even it alters their whole career
Speaker 1: because they didn't have enough money and they.
Speaker 2: Had inflection point where things kind of went south after that.
Speaker 1: I've known friends that that happened to, and it's just like,
Speaker 1: if they had had three months worth of expenses on
Speaker 1: hand and they could little bit more, whether that storm
Speaker 1: a little bit longer, they wouldn't have taken that first
Speaker 1: job that came along.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So a friend of mine, he actually recently was
Speaker 2: laid off, and he actually was lucky, and he did
Speaker 2: have six months worth of living expenses on hand. But
Speaker 2: even after he got a new job, even after he
Speaker 2: had an awesome offer, I was talking to him about it,
Speaker 2: and he said, you know, I kind of wish that
Speaker 2: I would have had even more padding. He said that
Speaker 2: he wishes he would have even had closer to twelve
Speaker 2: months worth of living expenses on hand. And so I
Speaker 2: think it is important to know your personal appetite for risk, essentially,
Speaker 2: because different folks are going to find themselves at different
Speaker 2: ends of what a fully funded emergency fund is. But
Speaker 2: I found that really interesting that even after he kind
Speaker 2: of came out through the other side. You would think
Speaker 2: that you would quickly forget that, right, Like you'd be like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 2: it was fine. I always knew it was going to
Speaker 2: be fine. But he was just like, you know, that
Speaker 2: kind of it put us in an uncomfortable position, and
Speaker 2: I think he's probably going to air more on having
Speaker 2: closer to that nine to twelve months as opposed to
Speaker 2: that three to six side of fully funded emergency fund
Speaker 2: makes sense to me. Yeah, And so the next basic
Speaker 2: general financial move that we want folks to make is
Speaker 2: to create a bare bones budget. This is a topic
Speaker 2: that we dedicated an entire episode too, back in episode
Speaker 2: three sixty two. But this is just an awesome exercise
Speaker 2: in prioritizing your needs and cutting your once out of
Speaker 2: the equation. Because having a plan now for how it
Speaker 2: is that you're going to slash your budget in the
Speaker 2: event of a layoff, that can help you to see
Speaker 2: how that savings might be able to stretch even further.
Speaker 2: And then just having it already created means that you
Speaker 2: can just flip the switch, right, You can just hop
Speaker 2: on over to that new, much trimmer budget and in
Speaker 2: a moment's notice. And I think this is kind of
Speaker 2: going back to what we were just saying, this is
Speaker 2: an easy way to transform six months worth of living
Speaker 2: expenses to twelve months, yes, right, like it effectively, even
Speaker 2: though like the dollar amount hasn't changed. Well, if you
Speaker 2: change how much how much money you're hemorrhaging every single month, well,
Speaker 2: it effectively does turn that into a twelve months worth
Speaker 2: of living expensive.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And trying to create that bare bones budget when
Speaker 1: you're emotionally in an emotional upheaval after being let go,
Speaker 1: that's tough. But having the plan created beforehand and then
Speaker 1: just implementing is so different than trying to figure it
Speaker 1: out on the fly when you're in the midst of
Speaker 1: like a financial fiasco, where you might even overcorrect. Yes,
Speaker 1: like if you're feeling the weight of that layoff more emotionally,
Speaker 1: you might say it takes some like crazy the drastic
Speaker 1: cuts that might be a little near sighted to the top.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, exactly. All right.
Speaker 1: So another general financial move for folks who at least
Speaker 1: own a home is to open a helock, a home
Speaker 1: equity line of credit. And this isn't something we want
Speaker 1: you to use necessarily, right, but if you've got to
Speaker 1: put food on the table, it's probably better to take
Speaker 1: money from the helock than to charge things up on
Speaker 1: your credit card. Especially with what's happened with credit card
Speaker 1: interest rates, right, you're likely not going to be able
Speaker 1: to get that helock though, if you don't have a job,
Speaker 1: So this is again a preventative measure. This is something
Speaker 1: you can't do after the fact. You can usually open
Speaker 1: one at a credit union with no closing costs, and
Speaker 1: it's this financial release valve that can provide peace of
Speaker 1: mind for you in case of emergency. It's kind of
Speaker 1: like one of those break glass in case of emergency scenarios,
Speaker 1: like you want access to it, you want access, you
Speaker 1: want to be there. The fire is thing, we sure,
Speaker 1: but you'll break the glass until the fire is actually happening.
Speaker 1: And that's what a helock can be for a lot
Speaker 1: of people. I think if you're a homeowner having a helock,
Speaker 1: there's very little downside as long as you can prevent
Speaker 1: yourself from tapping it until it's absolutely necessary.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Kind of makes me think of like air bags
Speaker 2: in a car, because when you and I talked about this,
Speaker 2: because you know recently when you got rear ended, I
Speaker 2: was like, wait a minute, did the air bags not
Speaker 2: deploy when yall cause y'all got hit pretty hard, But
Speaker 2: because I guess you're a hit from behind, the air
Speaker 2: bags didn't deploy.
Speaker 1: But I'll stay to round us that that hard from
Speaker 1: the front.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, they throw it sure would have deployed, but
Speaker 2: I was thinking through that because I thought that they
Speaker 2: would have. Typically that adds a lot more expense to
Speaker 2: repairing a vehicle because it kind of destroys your interior,
Speaker 2: right like the like the dashboard, the steering wheel. It's
Speaker 2: just it's like exploded to shreds in order for that
Speaker 2: airbag to get out, and not to mention like you know,
Speaker 2: newer cards got like the side curtained airbags, So there
Speaker 2: are a lot of parts that have to be replaced.
Speaker 2: And of course if you were in a head on collision,
Speaker 2: you are so glad that you've got that there, but
Speaker 2: you're not looking for those airbags to go off just
Speaker 2: willy nilly while you're driving around. It's not something that
Speaker 2: you're voluntarily looking to do. But we also want to
Speaker 2: recommend for folks to consider diversifying their income as well,
Speaker 2: and is not advice for everyone actually, because like you,
Speaker 2: depending on your situation, you might find yourself overwhelmed with
Speaker 2: a day job, one that requires maybe quite a bit
Speaker 2: of time and effort. As well as maybe you've got
Speaker 2: a big family, maybe you've got a lot of kids,
Speaker 2: but if you're worried that your job might not be
Speaker 2: long for this world. Other streams of income, even if
Speaker 2: they're quite a bit smaller, right, but even still, they
Speaker 2: can provide at least some additional income. It can provide
Speaker 2: a little more cushion if a layoff hits your family.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and those things aren't created overnight. This is another
Speaker 1: thing where you've got to be intentional on the front
Speaker 1: end to kind of create that other stream of income.
Speaker 1: Starting a side hustle or a side business, even if
Speaker 1: it's stay small though, can give you something to pour
Speaker 1: your energy into, maybe becoming your full time thing eventually
Speaker 1: if you do get laid off. I like that as
Speaker 1: like an outlet to pour some of your effort into.
Speaker 1: Maybe you could ramp it up really quickly if you
Speaker 1: lose your job. And investment property, by the way, like
Speaker 1: if you're so inclined, can have a similar sort of
Speaker 1: impact bolstering your personal finances having money still coming in
Speaker 1: even though you don't have the paycheck. And so when
Speaker 1: you do this, you're making a conscious choice not to
Speaker 1: put all of your eggs in that W two income basket,
Speaker 1: which I think is really smart.
Speaker 2: That's true. Yeah, So as we have said all of
Speaker 2: these different steps that we want you to at least consider,
Speaker 2: if not take simultaneously. This is gonna be difficult to do,
Speaker 2: but at the same time, we don't want you to
Speaker 2: get distracted from the golden goose that's currently laying the eggs. Right, Like,
Speaker 2: there's a chance that you may not get laid off.
Speaker 2: But if all of your additional and all of your
Speaker 2: creative energy, if it's going towards figuring out where you're
Speaker 2: gonna land, if layoffs do start coming down the pike,
Speaker 2: then that could actually make you less attractive as an
Speaker 2: employee and more likely that you're gonna get fired. So
Speaker 2: just keep that in mind. Right, You got to kind
Speaker 2: of find that balance, because if you're using company time
Speaker 2: and assets to find the next gig when instead you
Speaker 2: should be serving the company, well that's not going to
Speaker 2: bode Well.
Speaker 1: Yeah, your boss comes in the room while you're working
Speaker 1: on your resume, that never is good. They're like, oh, oh,
Speaker 1: they're looking for other stuff, and you're like, no, I'm
Speaker 1: just trying to prepare because the things all look so
Speaker 1: hot around here.
Speaker 2: Now you need to do that on your own time.
Speaker 2: Are like, well, we weren't planning firing you. But no,
Speaker 2: you've just kind of risen to the top exactly. Yes,
Speaker 2: But Joel, right after the break, we're going to get
Speaker 2: to some final things that we want folks to consider,
Speaker 2: specifically if they find themselves in the middle of getting
Speaker 2: laid off. We'll get to those right after this.
Speaker 1: All right, Matt, we are back. We were talking a
Speaker 1: lot about how to prepare for a potential layoff. Now
Speaker 1: let's talk about what happens when the ish hit the fan, right, So, like,
Speaker 1: when you actually do get laid off, there's a whole
Speaker 1: lot of things happening that you need to consider and
Speaker 1: that you need to some things, some steps you need
Speaker 1: to take in the middle of an uncomfortable situation, and
Speaker 1: hopefully your employer handles it well. Hopefully they're not the
Speaker 1: kind of folks sending just a crummy mass email to
Speaker 1: like thousands of people at one time, or putting you
Speaker 1: on some sort of mass zoom call. But those which
Speaker 1: actually makes you think that the layoffs, the way they
Speaker 1: went down in office space, they don't seem so bad
Speaker 1: in retrospect, right, Like.
Speaker 2: It seems quite kind and humane. Yes, even what folks
Speaker 2: are dealing with them, Yeah, even.
Speaker 1: Those guns for hire coming in like somebody you've never
Speaker 1: seen before. Well, at least it's interpersonal and it's one
Speaker 1: on one. But however it shakes out. Even while you
Speaker 1: might find yourself in a hyper emotional state, which makes sense,
Speaker 1: like it's never fun and it's disorienting to get laid off,
Speaker 1: to lose your job, you still need to make sure
Speaker 1: that you maintain your professionalism. So here is a thing.
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people, in the heat of
Speaker 1: the moment, they act poorly. They burn bridges, And at
Speaker 1: the end of the day, if you're let go, handling
Speaker 1: it in a cordial manner and maintaining a dialogue with
Speaker 1: your direct supervisor and your employer is really really important.
Speaker 1: You never know that your immediate boss might be flying
Speaker 1: the coop too. They might be getting let go as well,
Speaker 1: but they might have a landing pad somewhere else and
Speaker 1: they're like you know what, Sue or Jim like, man,
Speaker 1: they handled that so well. They've been a great employee
Speaker 1: for a long time. I'm gonna take them with me.
Speaker 1: I want to see if there's a spot for them too.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but if you how many.
Speaker 1: Suits form out in a bunch of curse words, sort
Speaker 1: of thing, like you might ruin that opportunity you said.
Speaker 2: I was gonna make fun of you for saying Sue.
Speaker 2: How many sus do you actually know? Boy name Sue?
Speaker 2: I know a boy name Sue. Okay, if you're gonna
Speaker 2: say Jim, you should say Pam. Yeah. Probably. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Well even if you feel slighted though, I think and no,
Speaker 1: it's true, which is true, Like it's hard not to
Speaker 1: feel slighted, not to feel like you don't want me anymore?
Speaker 1: Like what's wrong with you being a jerk? Isn't going
Speaker 1: to help you or your future prospects. And it makes
Speaker 1: me think of Matt. We had a friend who during
Speaker 1: the pandemic, like Delta, big employer here in Atlanta, they
Speaker 1: eliminated a lot of positions and a lot of people.
Speaker 1: I think it was that was hard, But they brought
Speaker 1: a lot of those people back when the air travel
Speaker 1: resurgens happened. But my guess is they didn't reach out
Speaker 1: to some folks, But the folks that had handled it
Speaker 1: really well and who had been good employees for a
Speaker 1: long time, they probably reached back out with some pretty
Speaker 1: sweet offers. So those are the kind of things that
Speaker 1: happen in business, and the more you kind of are
Speaker 1: emotional reactionary and casting throwing stones at your employee or
Speaker 1: your boss, the worst it's gonna shake out for you
Speaker 1: when it comes to getting a reference in the future.
Speaker 1: We're getting another job offer, that's right.
Speaker 2: So severance, that's the that's the next item on the docket,
Speaker 2: because months of pay without having to actually work, that's
Speaker 2: probably the biggest thing that you're gonna want to pay
Speaker 2: attention to next. And it is definitely worth trying to
Speaker 2: negotiate more than the initial offer, especially if you feel
Speaker 2: that the amount that they're that they're giving you is paltry.
Speaker 2: For instance, if they're offering one week of pay salary
Speaker 2: per year that you've worked there versus two, that would
Speaker 2: make a massive stinking difference were you to push back
Speaker 2: a little bit. Ingranted, oftentimes you're not necessarily in a
Speaker 2: super strong position of you know, to negotiate. But again,
Speaker 2: going back to Alex Carter, she talked about the ability
Speaker 2: to negotiate severance on the front and.
Speaker 1: So but eat on the back end. It's a question
Speaker 1: you could ask. You can always always ask, hey, industry standards,
Speaker 1: two weeks, why are you guys only offering one and
Speaker 1: can how can we how can we make this severance
Speaker 1: more palatable to both of us?
Speaker 2: Yeah, we don't want that to be something that you
Speaker 2: agree to right away, Like, don't sign right away. Take
Speaker 2: the time, think through it, and buy yourself a little
Speaker 2: bit of additional time to ask for better terms. You
Speaker 2: can also negotiate some other things in this process too, right,
Speaker 2: like perhaps getting paid for some vacation days that you
Speaker 2: haven't taken. Leave no stone unturned. You're now ex employer.
Speaker 2: They might you know, maybe they might even be able
Speaker 2: to help you to find a new job if they
Speaker 2: happen to know that. Like, hey, look, this is a
Speaker 2: difficult position that we are finding ourselves in the industry wide.
Speaker 2: Though things are looking good, let's make an introductory phone
Speaker 2: call with you and so and so at this neighboringcome That.
Speaker 1: Kind of stuff can be massive, right, and yet oftentimes
Speaker 1: in our emotional state, we don't do some of those
Speaker 1: steps that could potentially help us. Land the next thing totally.
Speaker 1: Healthcare is another thing that you can potentially negotiate your company.
Speaker 1: They might be willing to put the bill for Cobra
Speaker 1: coverage for a full six months or something like that.
Speaker 1: Like at least ensuring that if you've got an ongoing
Speaker 1: health condition you're taking care of, you can go see
Speaker 1: your doctor. That could be a big thing. Cobra is
Speaker 1: very expensive to the tune. Depending on family size and
Speaker 1: all that kind of stuff, it could be a couple
Speaker 1: grand a month or more. And so that's one of
Speaker 1: those things that you might be able to negotiate when
Speaker 1: you're talking severance with your employer on the way out
Speaker 1: and Matt, we actually talked about proactively starting a severance
Speaker 1: conversation negotiating your own layoff with Sam from Financial Samurai
Speaker 1: back in episode five thirty five. I actually used some
Speaker 1: of his techniques back in the day when I was
Speaker 1: ready to leave a job and I saw the writing
Speaker 1: on the wall they were trying to let people go.
Speaker 1: I said, hey, I'm going to raise my hand. You
Speaker 1: might want to let me go, and I was able
Speaker 1: to negotiate a severance kind of proactively get laid off,
Speaker 1: which sounds weird, but that is that is something that
Speaker 1: I think if you are in the financial position and
Speaker 1: you really want to pursue something else, you might be
Speaker 1: able to take advantage of an industry wide layoff or
Speaker 1: something like that. And volunteer yourself as tribute in a
Speaker 1: way to get something like a six month severance.
Speaker 2: Pay and gotten a s Everden style.
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, And I think that that can for some
Speaker 1: people who really are ready to make a transition, who
Speaker 1: have their financial ducts in a row, that can be
Speaker 1: another strategy that happens if layoff, a layoff tidal wave
Speaker 1: does really come about.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you can negotiate a longer period that you have
Speaker 2: that money flowing in. But yeah, you get to essentially
Speaker 2: play the part of the hero a little bit where
Speaker 2: it's a win win. It works out for you because
Speaker 2: maybe you're looking to move on to something more exciting,
Speaker 2: or maybe you're tech, maybe you're even like financially independent
Speaker 2: and you're just looking to man, I've been looking for
Speaker 2: a reason to just get out of here. Yeah, it
Speaker 2: could work out for everybody. But maybe you are laid off,
Speaker 2: make sure that you file for unemployment because the longer
Speaker 2: that you wait to file for this, the longer it's
Speaker 2: going to take for that first unemployment check to hit
Speaker 2: your account. And if you've got a bunch of expenses
Speaker 2: that you got to pay without a whole lot of margin,
Speaker 2: you're going to be in a tough spot, so don't
Speaker 2: delay on this one. Go ahead, gather the necessary paperwork
Speaker 2: file for unemployment on your state's Department of Labor website.
Speaker 2: And by the way, this we want to make sure
Speaker 2: that folks are thinking about this correctly, because I feel
Speaker 2: like we are very much. We tend to walk the
Speaker 2: line of independence and self reliance. But this isn't a handout.
Speaker 2: This is basically insurance that you've been paying into four years.
Speaker 2: It's literally called unemployment insurance. And so don't feel bad
Speaker 2: about taking it. Yeah, some people have a m when
Speaker 2: it comes to employed and there shouldn't be. There shouldn't
Speaker 2: because you are funding it in large part you and
Speaker 2: your employer m H. At the same time, take that
Speaker 2: money because that is insurance that you have contributed to,
Speaker 2: So don't feel bad about it. Also, now is the
Speaker 2: time now to not just have made that bare bones budget,
Speaker 2: but to implement it. If you are like right, when
Speaker 2: you go through a layoff, this is the time to
Speaker 2: shift and to say this is my new budget. And
Speaker 2: so unemployment and severance they can be burned through really
Speaker 2: quickly in order to stretch that money and the savings
Speaker 2: you currently have. The money you have on hand and
Speaker 2: like liquid, cut back on expenses until you're able to
Speaker 2: secure another job. That's where the BBB comes in. You
Speaker 2: implement it in case of an emergency. That's why you
Speaker 2: made it in the first place. That's right, man, And
Speaker 2: as folks are in the middle of this turmoil, we
Speaker 2: want you to not get down about things. We want
Speaker 2: you instead, we want you to think think outside the
Speaker 2: box because this layoff, this might be the best thing
Speaker 2: that's ever happened to you from a career standpoint. Instead,
Speaker 2: we want you to think through like what new opportunities
Speaker 2: could actually come knocking because you now have the ability
Speaker 2: to take on something else and specifically having meaningful financial
Speaker 2: margin that helps to be able to have a brighter
Speaker 2: outlook as well. But this is why we love the
Speaker 2: idea of folks having multiple streams of income. We touched
Speaker 2: on this earlier as well, But even just having a
Speaker 2: super small side hustle that can mean a continued flow
Speaker 2: of some money coming in after a layoff, and it
Speaker 2: can give you the ability to pour more hours into
Speaker 2: that solopreneur business to see if it, you know, could
Speaker 2: potentially sprout wings and fly off. While you are simultaneously
Speaker 2: weighing some some other job offers, and so it's yeah,
Speaker 2: it can be easy to kind of take the woe
Speaker 2: as me stance, but instead we want you to you know,
Speaker 2: this is where just thinking a little bit more optimistically
Speaker 2: we think is going to pay off.
Speaker 1: And I think it's true. Man, a lot of people too.
Speaker 1: They also they see a layoff as a judgment on
Speaker 1: themselves as an individual human or as a as a worker.
Speaker 1: It's not always is a referendum on how good you
Speaker 1: are at your job or how decent of a human
Speaker 1: being you are, and usually it's not. Usually it's more
Speaker 1: of a function, like a macroeconomic function that influences a
Speaker 1: lot of people on a micro level.
Speaker 2: Right, And so there's ten thousand people that bowing yeah.
Speaker 1: Or all those people like it's it's the year of
Speaker 1: efficiency that's going on. It's not about like, hey, you
Speaker 1: suck at your job, and so don't take it that way.
Speaker 1: If you and I get it's hard to dissociate those
Speaker 1: two things. But we have to in order to, I think,
Speaker 1: to be able to retain our confidence and our abilities
Speaker 1: as we try to move forward in our careers post layoff.
Speaker 1: And if you do get laid off, on that note, Matt,
Speaker 1: start looking for work quickly. That's what we would that's
Speaker 1: what we would encourage. Don't take eight weeks off and
Speaker 1: then start looking or whatever. Like h I get the
Speaker 1: kind of the desire. Take a few days, right, sure,
Speaker 1: but not eight weeks. You want to You want to
Speaker 1: process things and be in a healthy mental local state. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and you might feel a little manic if you start
Speaker 1: job hunting that very evening or something like that. But
Speaker 1: now is the time to utilize the network that you've
Speaker 1: successfully built to help you as well. That's what it's
Speaker 1: there for. And so I think the ways to do this,
Speaker 1: by the way, or to simply let folks out there
Speaker 1: in your network know that you're looking for a job.
Speaker 1: Remain upbeat and positive. Talk about your former employer in
Speaker 1: a good light, because if you don't, think it reflects
Speaker 1: more on you than it does on your employer.
Speaker 2: But make it.
Speaker 1: Create a post on LinkedIn and talk about how you're
Speaker 1: sad that all those years this wonderful employer have come
Speaker 1: to an end. That kind of puts the notice out. Hey,
Speaker 1: guess what, I'm a free agent. And you can also
Speaker 1: email some specific people in your network directly. Don't do
Speaker 1: it in some sort of a bulk email address people
Speaker 1: as individuals, but I think sending notes and message asking
Speaker 1: for advice and telling people thank you, not asking for
Speaker 1: jobs specifically, but that just again puts it on the radar. Hey,
Speaker 1: I'm a free agent, I'm open for work, and I
Speaker 1: think that is what gets the network going to kind
Speaker 1: of like advocate on your behalf, or to send you
Speaker 1: job offerings or yeah, to maybe even bring you in
Speaker 1: for an interview if you know somebody who's in that
Speaker 1: kind of position.
Speaker 2: Totally yeah. And you said to not necessarily ask for
Speaker 2: a job. I think there's a difference between stating clearly
Speaker 2: what it is you're looking for versus begging for a job,
Speaker 2: which is maybe I think maybe what you're getting at,
Speaker 2: because I think it's okay to state clearly the kind
Speaker 2: of position that you're looking for, the type of role,
Speaker 2: the type of company, as opposed to just being like, hey,
Speaker 2: what's going on? Have got anything for me? Because if
Speaker 2: you're just hanging out on LinkedIn all of a sudden
Speaker 2: and not clearly stating, I guess what it is that
Speaker 2: you're looking for, I don't. I guess what I'm thinking
Speaker 2: of is like maybe folks who are later in their careers,
Speaker 2: I don't think folks would necessarily assume that you're looking
Speaker 2: for a new job, because, in particular, if you've handled
Speaker 2: your money well, you literally could be financially independent. And
Speaker 2: folks might think that, well, maybe he's looking for a position,
Speaker 2: but I don't know, he hasn't really stated clearly what
Speaker 2: he's looking for. So I think it is important to
Speaker 2: communicate in an effective way. Whereas maybe if somebody who's
Speaker 2: in their twenties or thirties, it's like, Okay, yeah, they're
Speaker 2: probably looking for another position. But for those who are
Speaker 2: maybe a little more mature and aged, Joel, those folks
Speaker 2: might be actually looking to step out of the workforce
Speaker 2: all together. Well, I think either way, you need to
Speaker 2: try to be sensitive to our older sure, and as
Speaker 2: I'm now a man in his forties, I hear you.
Speaker 1: Well, I think either way, you want to make sure
Speaker 1: that your network knows that you're on the hunt, that
Speaker 1: you're looking. And that is where like public posting about
Speaker 1: it makes sense because you never know who's going to
Speaker 1: come through in the clutch or who's going to see
Speaker 1: that and say, oh, I didn't realize that Pam or
Speaker 1: Jim was available now that they were no longer deployment. Man,
Speaker 1: they did such a great job. Man, I didn't they'd
Speaker 1: be such an asset to our company. But if you
Speaker 1: don't post it and they don't know it, then they
Speaker 1: can't link you up to that opportunity that exists, and
Speaker 1: so you do have to make it public knowledge. While
Speaker 1: at the same time I'm begging for work, right, that's true. Yes,
Speaker 1: I will say too.
Speaker 2: My buddy who was recently laid off, but then Landa
Speaker 2: did a great job, a great gig. One of the
Speaker 2: things he mentioned he was that he was shocked at
Speaker 2: how supportive and how great all his previous coworkers and
Speaker 2: colleagues not coworkers I guess at the current company he
Speaker 2: was at, but just folks who he had worked with
Speaker 2: in the past were when it came to, hey, let
Speaker 2: me make an introductory email. Oh let me get you
Speaker 2: lined up with this company over here.
Speaker 1: And Matt to kind of wrap things up, we talked
Speaker 1: about earlier water proof versus water resistance, and the layoffs.
Speaker 2: Same thing.
Speaker 1: We want people to be layoff resistant. It's becoming layoff
Speaker 1: proof is basically impossible even for folks who like yeh
Speaker 1: us who run our own business. But I think it's
Speaker 1: important to make yourself as layoff resistant as possible, as
Speaker 1: financially resilient should a layoff come down the pike as possible.
Speaker 1: And I think for some people it really could be
Speaker 1: the best thing that ever happened to them. I know
Speaker 1: multiple friends where like they it gave them the chance
Speaker 1: to pursue something better, something even more lucrative, And they
Speaker 1: wouldn't have left their current job if they hadn't been
Speaker 1: forced out, And so it was. I wouldn't say it
Speaker 1: was like easy. It was a tumultuous experience for them,
Speaker 1: but they've landed in a much better place, and so
Speaker 1: it's so easy to think about layoffs as purely negative.
Speaker 1: But if we can change the way we think about it,
Speaker 1: and we can be more prepared for a potential one
Speaker 1: to come along, then I think it's all good. And
Speaker 1: it doesn't have to be nearly as much of like
Speaker 1: a disaster scenario as we might have built it up
Speaker 1: to be in our minds.
Speaker 2: Most definitely, Man, all right, let's shift gears. Get back
Speaker 2: to the beer that you and I enjoyed during this episode.
Speaker 2: This was an absolute brightness biology and this is specifically
Speaker 2: the ology out of Tampa, So I think they used
Speaker 2: to be or primarily they were founded and based in Tallahassee.
Speaker 2: And Jamie, who's a long time listener, she sent us
Speaker 2: this beer as well as the beer we had on Monday,
Speaker 2: and her husband specifically opened the Tampa location. But what
Speaker 2: your thoughts on this hazy double India pale ale, which is,
Speaker 2: by the way, what IPA stands for. We never say
Speaker 2: India pale ale, but that's what i PA. Everybody knows, right, right,
Speaker 2: most folks do, so, at least people listening to this show. Well,
Speaker 2: do you think more folks know what IRA stands for?
Speaker 2: I PA?
Speaker 1: Well, now they're confused because IRA Inflation Reduction Act or
Speaker 1: Individual Retirement again?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Yeah, which one was it?
Speaker 2: Well? Should we have a T shirt that's like IRA
Speaker 2: or IPA both? We could?
Speaker 1: We should. Well, we need to do merchant. We haven't
Speaker 1: done it because we're lazy. But this beer, Matt was
Speaker 1: really really delightful.
Speaker 2: This is tasty.
Speaker 1: It was like packed with juice, juicy punch. But it's like,
Speaker 1: all it's not fake juice. It's all like just amazing
Speaker 1: hop juice. Right, And so that's what makes a great IPA.
Speaker 1: A great one is because all those juicy vibes come
Speaker 1: from the selection of hops that are included and just
Speaker 1: from like a pristine brewing process. So this one had
Speaker 1: four different kinds of hops in it, all right, and
Speaker 1: it taste you can taste that dry hop sort of
Speaker 1: like funk, that edge, that bite.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I loved it. It's so good. Yeah, this is
Speaker 2: a really good one. I love that you talked about
Speaker 2: the fruity juiciness, but not because they're adjuncts in this beer,
Speaker 2: but because they're able to coax those flavors out of
Speaker 2: the hops. That's what you get with a delicious, hazy IPA.
Speaker 2: This absolute brightness was an absolute winner in my book. Jamie,
Speaker 2: thank you for sending this one out away. And I'm
Speaker 2: glad too, because we've never had any Ology beers on
Speaker 2: the show before, so I don't even I'm not even
Speaker 2: sure if I've ever had any in I r L
Speaker 2: in real life, as I don't think they had either,
Speaker 2: so I've seen them, seen them around before, but it
Speaker 2: was good to finally see what it is that they
Speaker 2: had to offer.
Speaker 1: So yeah, Well, if any of the rest of the
Speaker 1: lineup is it tastes like the ones that we've had already,
Speaker 1: this one or was it Rainbow color glasses? Yeah, then
Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure ology is made good. So fantastic, delightful beer.
Speaker 1: So yeah, very very delicious. Thank you, Jamie. Thank you
Speaker 1: to Jamie's husband as well.
Speaker 2: I don't know his name.
Speaker 1: She didn't mention it, but by the way, that's going
Speaker 1: to do it for this episode. We hope that you
Speaker 1: learned a lot, and we'll have links to some of
Speaker 1: the things that we mentioned in the show notes up
Speaker 1: on our website at how to money dot com.
Speaker 2: That's right, and if you have been listening to the
Speaker 2: show for a while you have found this episode helpful,
Speaker 2: we would love it if you were to leave us
Speaker 2: a solid review wherever it is that you leave the review.
Speaker 2: It's really helpful and helping others to discover how to money. Joel,
Speaker 2: that's going to be it for this episode, Buddy. Until
Speaker 2: next time, Best Friends Out, Best Friends Out.