1 00:00:02,560 --> 00:00:07,400 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. 2 00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:12,119 Speaker 2: Max Chafkin, Stacy Vanick Smith, how are you good? 3 00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:14,760 Speaker 3: I have a kind of weird question for you. All right, 4 00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:19,000 Speaker 3: hit me, So your outfit today today? It's like a 5 00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:22,280 Speaker 3: plaid kind of an olive greeny shirt and then like, 6 00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:25,840 Speaker 3: I don't know, green pants. So did you like plan 7 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:29,960 Speaker 3: this carefully? What went into the choosing of this look? 8 00:00:30,920 --> 00:00:31,320 Speaker 2: Stacy? 9 00:00:31,320 --> 00:00:35,239 Speaker 4: I have three small children and I had to take 10 00:00:35,320 --> 00:00:37,879 Speaker 4: my kids to school at leave the house at six 11 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:41,320 Speaker 4: thirty this morning, so I was basically fumbling in the dark. 12 00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:42,479 Speaker 5: Okay, So when. 13 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:45,159 Speaker 3: Darkness chooses your outfit, Like, how much would you say 14 00:00:45,159 --> 00:00:47,920 Speaker 3: your look today this morning costs? 15 00:00:48,159 --> 00:00:51,160 Speaker 4: I think that this shirt, which you bought five years 16 00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:54,720 Speaker 4: ago probably costs like one hundred and twenty dollars and 17 00:00:54,760 --> 00:00:55,920 Speaker 4: that and these that. 18 00:00:56,000 --> 00:00:57,800 Speaker 5: Shirt costs one hundred and twenty dollars. 19 00:00:57,840 --> 00:00:58,320 Speaker 2: Harsh. 20 00:00:58,680 --> 00:00:59,760 Speaker 5: I'm just asking. 21 00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:05,160 Speaker 4: It's wool, it's a natural, very nice. Why it's less love? Yeah, 22 00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:07,640 Speaker 4: and I don't know, these pants maybe one hundred bucks. 23 00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:09,959 Speaker 5: Okay, So with that in mind, let me play you 24 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:10,400 Speaker 5: this clip. 25 00:01:10,840 --> 00:01:12,600 Speaker 6: My name is Anna and I'm the author of the 26 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:15,080 Speaker 6: new book called The Double Tacks, a book about how 27 00:01:15,120 --> 00:01:17,720 Speaker 6: expensive it is to be a woman. So naturally we 28 00:01:17,720 --> 00:01:20,120 Speaker 6: went into the streets of Philly and ask folks, do you. 29 00:01:20,120 --> 00:01:21,520 Speaker 7: Think being a woman's expensive? 30 00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:28,040 Speaker 6: Here's what they have to say. 31 00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:32,160 Speaker 3: Whoa Anna Gifty of Poku a Jemon. She goes onto 32 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:34,520 Speaker 3: the streets of Philadelphia to talk to citizens about the 33 00:01:34,560 --> 00:01:38,320 Speaker 3: cost of womanhood. In her book, Anna looks at how 34 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:41,920 Speaker 3: black women's shoulder a lot of hidden costs and at 35 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:44,640 Speaker 3: the same time are missing out on a lot of 36 00:01:44,959 --> 00:01:45,839 Speaker 3: earning potential. 37 00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:48,880 Speaker 4: Yeah, and this is a big topic for us at 38 00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:51,280 Speaker 4: Everybody's beenins We talk all the time about the costs 39 00:01:51,360 --> 00:01:54,760 Speaker 4: and how those costs influence things that maybe people don't 40 00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:57,880 Speaker 4: notice or don't notice immediately. And Anna believes this is 41 00:01:57,880 --> 00:01:59,560 Speaker 4: an area where we need to take a closer look. 42 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:02,400 Speaker 6: If you don't address these costs that are arising for 43 00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:06,280 Speaker 6: women of color, especially black women, those costs left unaddressed 44 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:07,760 Speaker 6: will eventually affect everybody else. 45 00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:14,120 Speaker 3: We had a great discussion with Anna about black women 46 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:16,280 Speaker 3: and the economy and what it's. 47 00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:18,040 Speaker 8: Like to be a worker right now. 48 00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:21,120 Speaker 3: And also it is fashion week here in New York. However, 49 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:23,320 Speaker 3: the mood in the industry right now. 50 00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:24,040 Speaker 5: Is a little bit sour. 51 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:27,040 Speaker 9: These fashion shows don't really matter. 52 00:02:27,639 --> 00:02:29,520 Speaker 3: After we hit the streets, we have a conversation with 53 00:02:29,560 --> 00:02:33,240 Speaker 3: business journalist Lauren Sherman, and then of course underrated Stories. 54 00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:34,480 Speaker 2: It's everybody's business. 55 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:36,800 Speaker 5: I'm Max Chafkin and I'm Stacey Mannicksmith. 56 00:02:44,919 --> 00:02:48,800 Speaker 4: Stacy, let's first quickly run through the headlines, and I 57 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:52,480 Speaker 4: think the big one is that the US economy, for 58 00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:56,320 Speaker 4: all the kind of warning signs that we talk about 59 00:02:56,360 --> 00:02:58,639 Speaker 4: on this show all the time, it's chugging along. 60 00:02:59,160 --> 00:03:01,720 Speaker 3: Well, this is this big debate happening right now, and 61 00:03:01,760 --> 00:03:03,239 Speaker 3: I think this week it came to a head. Like 62 00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:05,839 Speaker 3: many weeks, the stock market's been hitting these record highs. 63 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:09,480 Speaker 3: Dow Jones Industrial average hit fifty thousand, which I'm laughing 64 00:03:09,520 --> 00:03:12,520 Speaker 3: because that number is so high. And we got a 65 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:14,919 Speaker 3: good jobs report, we'll talk about that a little later 66 00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:18,440 Speaker 3: in the show, surprisingly good. At the same time, people 67 00:03:18,760 --> 00:03:21,760 Speaker 3: are saying, like there is this disconnect. A lot of 68 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:23,679 Speaker 3: parts of the economy do not feel great, the job 69 00:03:23,720 --> 00:03:27,079 Speaker 3: market being one of them. So there's this weird kind 70 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:29,520 Speaker 3: of disconnect. These dueling narratives. 71 00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:32,560 Speaker 4: I gotta say, I am starting to wonder if maybe 72 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:35,840 Speaker 4: the economy is just good and we just can't and 73 00:03:35,880 --> 00:03:39,000 Speaker 4: the vibe session was just too many journalists. 74 00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:41,120 Speaker 2: Spending too much time, like on social media or something. 75 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:43,760 Speaker 4: But then the other thing I think about when I 76 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:46,240 Speaker 4: say that out loud is probably that is the moment 77 00:03:46,680 --> 00:03:50,440 Speaker 4: when the economy goes bad, because, like in an economic bubble, 78 00:03:50,720 --> 00:03:52,440 Speaker 4: right before it bursts, everyone always. 79 00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:55,520 Speaker 3: Says, oh, like your words wheeled this level of control 80 00:03:55,600 --> 00:03:58,080 Speaker 3: and power, oh us economy. 81 00:03:57,680 --> 00:04:00,440 Speaker 2: By saying that I am going to bring a session, 82 00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:02,600 Speaker 2: so like. 83 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:05,320 Speaker 5: Well, do that, I would say in. 84 00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:07,320 Speaker 2: Shape sort of? Maybe, I don't know. 85 00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:09,720 Speaker 3: I feel like when you dive a little more deeply 86 00:04:09,760 --> 00:04:12,280 Speaker 3: into the numbers, some of the issues make sense. Like 87 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:15,800 Speaker 3: hiring is the lowest that's been in decades, and although 88 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:17,680 Speaker 3: we did add a lot of jobs in January, which 89 00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:21,560 Speaker 3: was awesome, almost all the jobs were in like healthcare, 90 00:04:22,080 --> 00:04:24,279 Speaker 3: so if you work in a field other than healthcare, 91 00:04:24,839 --> 00:04:26,720 Speaker 3: and also media and tech tend to get a lot 92 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:29,880 Speaker 3: of press and be quite high profile industries, and those 93 00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:31,320 Speaker 3: have both been shedding a lot of jobs. So I 94 00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:33,080 Speaker 3: think that's part of the reason. But I think you're right, 95 00:04:33,120 --> 00:04:35,760 Speaker 3: maybe things are not as bad as. 96 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:36,720 Speaker 5: We feel like they are. 97 00:04:36,839 --> 00:04:40,000 Speaker 4: I guess we should acknowledge that the Trump administration seems 98 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:44,120 Speaker 4: to be backing down in Minnesota, Tom Holman announcing that 99 00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:48,640 Speaker 4: the immigration blitz that has really dominated the headlines and 100 00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:52,360 Speaker 4: led to protests around the country is ending. Hard to 101 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:55,920 Speaker 4: know what that means and whether you know, the Trump 102 00:04:55,920 --> 00:04:58,560 Speaker 4: administration is just going to move on to another target, 103 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:01,360 Speaker 4: or whether this is a real sh and strategy, But 104 00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:04,520 Speaker 4: would it would make sense that Trump would want to 105 00:05:04,560 --> 00:05:06,840 Speaker 4: back down given that we're coming into a sort of 106 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:11,280 Speaker 4: midterm election season. These immigration policies have been hugely unpopular 107 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:15,000 Speaker 4: and there is a real concern around affordability, which which 108 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:19,160 Speaker 4: seems like a more perhaps more profitable political issue for Trump. 109 00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:21,800 Speaker 3: And there are a lot of like really key industries 110 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:25,520 Speaker 3: that have a lot of immigrants working in them, including 111 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:31,640 Speaker 3: agriculture and food preparation, and if people are either self 112 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:35,920 Speaker 3: deporting or leaving or less inclined to look for work 113 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:38,000 Speaker 3: in the US, we could see those prices go up, 114 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:41,160 Speaker 3: which is also you know, I think just not great 115 00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:43,280 Speaker 3: for a lot of reasons, but also I think for 116 00:05:43,279 --> 00:05:47,880 Speaker 3: Trump politically not great. So Max, I feel a little 117 00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:49,760 Speaker 3: bad that I outfit shamed you at the top of 118 00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:50,120 Speaker 3: the show. 119 00:05:50,279 --> 00:05:51,080 Speaker 2: H ridiculous. 120 00:05:51,200 --> 00:05:55,320 Speaker 4: I And there's been no outfit shaving on you to date. 121 00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:56,400 Speaker 7: I'm wearing a black shirt. 122 00:05:56,440 --> 00:05:57,320 Speaker 5: There's nothing to shame. 123 00:05:57,480 --> 00:05:57,920 Speaker 2: How much? 124 00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:01,839 Speaker 5: Oh was this shirt thirty or forty bucks? It was 125 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:02,359 Speaker 5: on sale? 126 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:02,839 Speaker 2: Nice? 127 00:06:03,200 --> 00:06:05,000 Speaker 4: I do think we need to broaden this beyond the 128 00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:07,799 Speaker 4: cost of our Yeah, yeah, I agree, and talk about 129 00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:11,640 Speaker 4: these hidden costs and bring in Anna gifty Opoku Augimon. 130 00:06:12,279 --> 00:06:14,600 Speaker 2: Welcome, Ana, Hi, how are you good? 131 00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:15,000 Speaker 5: Good? 132 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:19,000 Speaker 3: It is Black History Month. We also just got jobs 133 00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:23,120 Speaker 3: numbers out this week. What is the economy like for 134 00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:27,479 Speaker 3: black workers right now compared to the overall situation for 135 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:28,640 Speaker 3: workers in the US. 136 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:29,560 Speaker 7: It's rough. 137 00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:34,240 Speaker 6: The way to contextualize that is, black unemployment typically is 138 00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:39,680 Speaker 6: higher than white unemployment usually, right, And there's a lot 139 00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:42,080 Speaker 6: of structural reasons for why that's the case. Like, if 140 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:45,800 Speaker 6: you think about the number of resumes that black job 141 00:06:45,839 --> 00:06:48,080 Speaker 6: seekers have to send out in order to get a 142 00:06:48,080 --> 00:06:50,240 Speaker 6: call back, it's more than their white counterparts. 143 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:52,159 Speaker 7: And that's always been the case. Right. 144 00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:57,080 Speaker 6: So if you take that and add it to a 145 00:06:57,400 --> 00:07:01,360 Speaker 6: manufactured job crisis, right in the sense that a lot 146 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:04,919 Speaker 6: of jobs are being offloaded from the federal workforce, and 147 00:07:04,960 --> 00:07:10,040 Speaker 6: then you also have sort of this air of disincentivizing 148 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:14,160 Speaker 6: certain types of jobs from existing that may disproportionately be 149 00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:17,640 Speaker 6: occupied by black workers. In addition to the fact that 150 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:22,640 Speaker 6: AI itself also is starting to affect the job market 151 00:07:23,040 --> 00:07:23,960 Speaker 6: in different ways. 152 00:07:23,960 --> 00:07:27,440 Speaker 7: By the way, going back to hiring, we know there's. 153 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:31,360 Speaker 6: Like a current i think, active lawsuit against work Day 154 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:34,880 Speaker 6: where they're using an AI hiring tool that's known to 155 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:40,360 Speaker 6: be biased against racial minorities and LGBTQ plus individuals. So 156 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:44,080 Speaker 6: if you combine all of those things together, black folks 157 00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:46,080 Speaker 6: who are trying to get a job right now are 158 00:07:46,160 --> 00:07:48,520 Speaker 6: just facing a very steep climb. 159 00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:52,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, I believe the unemployment rates almost it's almost double. 160 00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:54,040 Speaker 3: I mean, I think it's four point three percent for 161 00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:56,960 Speaker 3: the overall population, and I think among black workers it's 162 00:07:57,000 --> 00:07:58,200 Speaker 3: seven and a half percent. 163 00:07:58,480 --> 00:08:02,520 Speaker 4: And can you explain this idea of the double tax? 164 00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:06,760 Speaker 6: The double tax is essentially the compounded cost of racism 165 00:08:07,040 --> 00:08:09,920 Speaker 6: and sexism. I think the way to think about it 166 00:08:09,960 --> 00:08:14,080 Speaker 6: is we're all tethered in our economic realities. We're all 167 00:08:14,080 --> 00:08:17,680 Speaker 6: in the same economic block, so to speak. And so 168 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:20,360 Speaker 6: a lot of times people will say, what's happening to 169 00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:23,119 Speaker 6: black women doesn't really matter to me because it's happening 170 00:08:23,160 --> 00:08:23,840 Speaker 6: at that house. 171 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:25,760 Speaker 7: But we're all in the same neighborhood. 172 00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:27,400 Speaker 6: So if my house is on fire and you don't 173 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:29,880 Speaker 6: put the fire out of my house, it's probably going 174 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:33,360 Speaker 6: to spread to your house eventually. And that's essentially what 175 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:38,040 Speaker 6: we've kind of seen happen recently in the economy and elsewhere. 176 00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:41,360 Speaker 6: And I think massage noire and stuff is helpful to 177 00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:44,760 Speaker 6: kind of contextualize what happens to black women specifically. But 178 00:08:44,880 --> 00:08:47,320 Speaker 6: when you start talking about the double tax, it includes 179 00:08:47,800 --> 00:08:52,079 Speaker 6: how honestly one's proximity to black women actually affects their 180 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:55,440 Speaker 6: ability to experience true equality and true liberation. 181 00:08:55,679 --> 00:08:57,559 Speaker 2: When you say massage noir, what does that mean? 182 00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:02,640 Speaker 6: So massage noire is specifically judice and discrimination against black women. 183 00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:04,959 Speaker 6: So I like to say that the double tax is 184 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:08,640 Speaker 6: the quantification of misogyn noire. I'll give you a clear 185 00:09:08,679 --> 00:09:11,920 Speaker 6: example of this, But the attacks on Governor Lisa Cook 186 00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:13,760 Speaker 6: perfectly illustrate this. 187 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:16,319 Speaker 3: First black women to be a governor of the Federal 188 00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:17,880 Speaker 3: Reserve exactly right. 189 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:20,559 Speaker 6: So they go after her and they attack her, and 190 00:09:20,920 --> 00:09:22,360 Speaker 6: I'm not going to say that people didn't have a 191 00:09:22,400 --> 00:09:25,720 Speaker 6: reaction to it. I think people did, but I think 192 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:28,360 Speaker 6: there were certain entities that didn't take that very seriously. 193 00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:30,120 Speaker 7: And then We got like. 194 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:35,400 Speaker 6: A nine PM video from FED chair Jerome Powell a 195 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:37,960 Speaker 6: month ago where he was like, Yo, they're trying to 196 00:09:38,120 --> 00:09:41,520 Speaker 6: indict me, right for like criminal allegations, Like what are 197 00:09:41,520 --> 00:09:43,600 Speaker 6: we doing here? But I think it really did start 198 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:46,640 Speaker 6: with Governor Cook. So it's almost like, if you don't 199 00:09:46,679 --> 00:09:49,160 Speaker 6: address these costs that are arising for women of color, 200 00:09:49,240 --> 00:09:53,200 Speaker 6: especially black women, those costs left unaddressed will eventually affect 201 00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:53,880 Speaker 6: everybody else. 202 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:56,080 Speaker 5: What about it this moment? 203 00:09:56,200 --> 00:09:58,280 Speaker 3: I feel like we're at a moment where people feel 204 00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:00,640 Speaker 3: like there's not a lot of hiring going on. There's 205 00:10:00,679 --> 00:10:03,080 Speaker 3: a little bit of a zero sum game. I feel 206 00:10:03,120 --> 00:10:05,439 Speaker 3: like there's a little bit of a the other side 207 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:08,760 Speaker 3: of that coin, where it's like, if that person does 208 00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:12,120 Speaker 3: better in this workforce, that's a job that I'm not 209 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:13,240 Speaker 3: going to get. 210 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:14,720 Speaker 5: Is that true? 211 00:10:14,760 --> 00:10:15,400 Speaker 7: I think that. 212 00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:21,080 Speaker 6: While folks are thinking about that on the job applicant side, 213 00:10:21,160 --> 00:10:25,319 Speaker 6: it's not clear that employers are not thinking that way 214 00:10:25,520 --> 00:10:28,920 Speaker 6: in the sense that like they're also thinking through the 215 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:31,679 Speaker 6: trade offs of what kind of workers they want. And 216 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:34,120 Speaker 6: because it's a bit of an employer market, right, they 217 00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:37,760 Speaker 6: know people there's more folks who want jobs, and there 218 00:10:37,760 --> 00:10:41,440 Speaker 6: are jobs they could also be thinking about it through. Okay, Well, 219 00:10:41,880 --> 00:10:44,520 Speaker 6: if I can just get whoever I want, then sure 220 00:10:44,559 --> 00:10:47,040 Speaker 6: I can enact bias, and sure I can enact discrimination, 221 00:10:47,120 --> 00:10:49,720 Speaker 6: and it's not really being checked because I'm just going 222 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:50,960 Speaker 6: for the best worker, right. 223 00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:52,679 Speaker 7: I think in terms. 224 00:10:52,400 --> 00:10:56,480 Speaker 6: Of the zero sum game between the job candidates themselves, 225 00:10:56,920 --> 00:10:59,160 Speaker 6: I think it can definitely feel that way. I know 226 00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:02,280 Speaker 6: there's this sort of vibe session and I know that 227 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:05,600 Speaker 6: Darryl Farreweather has talked about how we're kind of going 228 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:08,160 Speaker 6: through a hiring recession, but I don't know if anybody 229 00:11:08,160 --> 00:11:11,880 Speaker 6: has really explored the vibes of that sort of no higher, 230 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:16,040 Speaker 6: no fire scenario. But because of these additional barriers, I'm 231 00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:17,040 Speaker 6: being screened out. 232 00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:20,640 Speaker 3: There's also a real pay issue. I know the pay 233 00:11:20,679 --> 00:11:24,640 Speaker 3: gap between women and men. Writ large, it gets a 234 00:11:24,640 --> 00:11:26,640 Speaker 3: lot of press. It's eighty two cents on the dollar, 235 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:28,720 Speaker 3: but it's different for black women. 236 00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:30,040 Speaker 7: Yeah, it's worse. 237 00:11:30,679 --> 00:11:34,160 Speaker 6: So I think it was when I was writing the 238 00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:38,320 Speaker 6: chapter on retirement and the end of life that I 239 00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:42,200 Speaker 6: was like, oh my gosh, if all of these costs 240 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:44,240 Speaker 6: go unaddressed, it shows up right here. 241 00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:46,320 Speaker 7: And so I think that like. 242 00:11:47,720 --> 00:11:51,320 Speaker 6: This issue of pay trickles down to all of the 243 00:11:51,400 --> 00:11:54,280 Speaker 6: other aspects of a woman's life. I like to say, 244 00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:56,960 Speaker 6: a woman who has who's backed up by a bank 245 00:11:56,960 --> 00:12:00,000 Speaker 6: account is a free woman, right. And so if you 246 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:03,320 Speaker 6: who aren't able to up and leave because you have 247 00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:06,120 Speaker 6: to financially depend on somebody else, or you're tethered to 248 00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:09,200 Speaker 6: a job that's low wage and low benefits, you're really 249 00:12:09,280 --> 00:12:12,200 Speaker 6: trapped in your circumstance. And one thing that was really 250 00:12:12,240 --> 00:12:14,360 Speaker 6: interesting to see is that you know, we know that 251 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:17,400 Speaker 6: black women in particular have higher student loan debt, right, 252 00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:20,800 Speaker 6: we know that there are barriers for women and especially 253 00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:24,040 Speaker 6: black women when they're buying homes. These all come back 254 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:26,679 Speaker 6: to sort of how much income are you bringing, how 255 00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:29,200 Speaker 6: much money do you have in the bank, and also 256 00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:32,480 Speaker 6: kind of colors whether or not individuals are even able 257 00:12:32,559 --> 00:12:35,400 Speaker 6: to start the kind of lives that they believe they deserve. 258 00:12:35,559 --> 00:12:37,800 Speaker 4: And part of the you brought this up at the 259 00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:40,360 Speaker 4: top of the conversation, like you know, if you're if 260 00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:43,160 Speaker 4: there's a house on your block that's on fire, it 261 00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:47,480 Speaker 4: affects the entire block. If you have a massive inequality 262 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:49,760 Speaker 4: in your society, like that's going to lead to a 263 00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:53,719 Speaker 4: less healthy society. I feel like intuitively that makes a 264 00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:56,760 Speaker 4: lot of sense, But I want to ask, like why 265 00:12:57,120 --> 00:12:59,600 Speaker 4: you know that to be true, especially like at a 266 00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:02,720 Speaker 4: time when like huge parts of the kind of like 267 00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:06,640 Speaker 4: corporate world as well as like a big chunk of 268 00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:09,600 Speaker 4: the Republican Party sort of decided on mass like not 269 00:13:09,679 --> 00:13:10,720 Speaker 4: to worry about this stuff. 270 00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:13,760 Speaker 5: Not even not to worry about it, but to yeah, 271 00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:14,079 Speaker 5: that the. 272 00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:17,800 Speaker 4: Big problem is actually anti white discrimination, right, Donald Trump, 273 00:13:17,840 --> 00:13:20,560 Speaker 4: Elon Musk, We talk about that all the time. Has 274 00:13:20,679 --> 00:13:25,280 Speaker 4: been tough, and like why is that sense of double taxation? 275 00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:28,959 Speaker 4: Why having like classes of people in your society getting 276 00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:32,520 Speaker 4: paid a fraction of what other people make is bad, 277 00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:33,679 Speaker 4: like bad economically? 278 00:13:34,040 --> 00:13:37,559 Speaker 6: These same people care about GDP growth, right, But if 279 00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:42,000 Speaker 6: everybody in your society can't fully participate in the economy, 280 00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:43,080 Speaker 6: your economy will strength. 281 00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:45,360 Speaker 7: That's inevitable. 282 00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:48,199 Speaker 6: What's interesting about what you specifically talked about with anti 283 00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:52,040 Speaker 6: white discrimination, which by the way, is not according to 284 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:54,840 Speaker 6: the empirical evidence that we currently got at least not 285 00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:58,400 Speaker 6: in hiring, not in promotion, and definitely not in college emissions. 286 00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:00,000 Speaker 6: Let me just go ahead and squash that right now, 287 00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:07,160 Speaker 6: is that there is a fact that underlies all of that, 288 00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:14,600 Speaker 6: which is the demographics of this country are changing rapidly, right, 289 00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:19,040 Speaker 6: So one and four gen Z identify Hispanic gen Alpha. 290 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:24,200 Speaker 6: The immediate next generation is majority minority. To put it lightly, 291 00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:29,960 Speaker 6: we cannot afford to ignore swaths of people who are 292 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:33,800 Speaker 6: double taxed, right unless you want this country to crumble. 293 00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:39,120 Speaker 6: It's just not sustainable. It's not economically feasible. I can 294 00:14:39,160 --> 00:14:41,480 Speaker 6: give you an example of what I mean maybe overseas. 295 00:14:41,520 --> 00:14:44,040 Speaker 6: So you're starting to see sort of anti immigrant sentiment 296 00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:49,680 Speaker 6: in the UK, in Germany kind of reemerge. What's ironic 297 00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:56,239 Speaker 6: about it is those economies rely heavily on the immigrant population. 298 00:14:56,480 --> 00:14:59,560 Speaker 6: In fact, it's part of their history, right, Like after 299 00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:02,600 Speaker 6: the World War is like they said, hey, we need 300 00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:06,000 Speaker 6: extra hands to help build our economy up. And so 301 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:08,680 Speaker 6: now this is like this sort of reversion and we're 302 00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:12,040 Speaker 6: gonna reject these individuals who help build up our economy. 303 00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:15,400 Speaker 7: You actually can't afford to. They make up too much 304 00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:17,560 Speaker 7: of an important role in your economy. 305 00:15:17,560 --> 00:15:20,440 Speaker 6: And I think we honestly see this even in what's 306 00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:22,680 Speaker 6: happening in agriculture, which is not getting a whole lot 307 00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:25,760 Speaker 6: of attention right now. You see these sort of ice 308 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:27,840 Speaker 6: rays that are taking place. You see sort of the 309 00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:31,520 Speaker 6: attacks on undocumented immigrants. You know, there's certain people on 310 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:34,280 Speaker 6: the right who are like, oh yeah, like rah rah, 311 00:15:34,280 --> 00:15:37,520 Speaker 6: but like you're not gonna be able to eat. That's 312 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:40,000 Speaker 6: the gag, right, So like this is what I mean 313 00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:43,000 Speaker 6: by folks are double tax and you're trying to make 314 00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:45,640 Speaker 6: it seem like those double taxes are happening in isolation, 315 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:49,320 Speaker 6: But the reality is what happens to that group is 316 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:52,080 Speaker 6: gonna matter for your group, and so you can't ignore 317 00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:53,480 Speaker 6: it because we're. 318 00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:55,800 Speaker 7: Really just sitting in one huge ven diagram. 319 00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:56,760 Speaker 5: I feel like, and. 320 00:15:56,920 --> 00:15:58,240 Speaker 3: There were a lot of gains in a lot of 321 00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:01,680 Speaker 3: parts of the labor force. But when the labor market 322 00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:03,760 Speaker 3: was really hot in like the end of two thousand 323 00:16:03,760 --> 00:16:06,080 Speaker 3: and one, two thousand and two, and it seemed like 324 00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:08,600 Speaker 3: we saw real wages rise for the first time in 325 00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:09,120 Speaker 3: a long. 326 00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:10,600 Speaker 5: Time, we saw a lot of gains. 327 00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:14,120 Speaker 3: Now that the job economy is not doing so well, 328 00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:17,800 Speaker 3: it seems like this kind of reversed so fast. We 329 00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:20,040 Speaker 3: saw the black unemployment rate up by one and a 330 00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:23,360 Speaker 3: half percent I think in a year, if I'm not wrong, 331 00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:25,120 Speaker 3: which is nuts. 332 00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:27,480 Speaker 5: What is your take on that as an economist, I. 333 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:30,320 Speaker 6: Think when we talk about black unemployment, there's a lot 334 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:34,440 Speaker 6: of structural barriers that already existed prior to this current 335 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:36,120 Speaker 6: administration entering. 336 00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:37,120 Speaker 7: That White House. 337 00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:41,960 Speaker 6: But I do think that there have been decisions made 338 00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:49,560 Speaker 6: by a variety of institutions that has harmed Black individuals disproportionately. 339 00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:55,160 Speaker 6: Decisions like we don't care about diversity, equity, and inclusion, 340 00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:59,480 Speaker 6: and that being synonymous with really, we just don't care 341 00:16:59,520 --> 00:17:04,000 Speaker 6: about black perspectives. And that's not necessarily the definition of DEI, 342 00:17:04,080 --> 00:17:06,880 Speaker 6: but that is how people are equating the two. And 343 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:10,320 Speaker 6: so it's having impacts on whether or not certain Black 344 00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:14,040 Speaker 6: women in particular have jobs in corporate America, because that's 345 00:17:14,080 --> 00:17:17,920 Speaker 6: where they've been essentially, I would say, occupationally segregated into 346 00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:21,280 Speaker 6: in terms of some of these corporate roles. Decisions like 347 00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:25,119 Speaker 6: we're going to go ahead and cut huge swaths of 348 00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:29,240 Speaker 6: the federal workforce, and again those cuts might have a 349 00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:35,199 Speaker 6: particularly negative effect on certain marginalized groups, that includes black individuals. 350 00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:35,440 Speaker 7: Right. 351 00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:38,399 Speaker 6: So, I think that there are these policy decisions that 352 00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:41,320 Speaker 6: are being made, and they're not being made in isolation. 353 00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:46,639 Speaker 6: They are decisions that are really affecting our entire economy 354 00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:49,520 Speaker 6: and our economy's ability to grow. And so if we 355 00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:52,000 Speaker 6: talk about like how do we get back to how 356 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:55,879 Speaker 6: things were? I think we need to be accountable to 357 00:17:55,960 --> 00:17:59,639 Speaker 6: how things have come to be, and before we move forward, 358 00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:01,479 Speaker 6: we should figure out, Okay, how do we get here 359 00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:05,200 Speaker 6: in the first place, and hopefully based off of what 360 00:18:05,240 --> 00:18:08,720 Speaker 6: we diagnose ourselves of, we can then say, Okay, here's 361 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:10,600 Speaker 6: what we're going to prescribe to ensure that this doesn't 362 00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:11,120 Speaker 6: happen again. 363 00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:21,400 Speaker 3: So Max, as we mentioned earlier, it is fashion week 364 00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:22,360 Speaker 3: here in New York. 365 00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:25,400 Speaker 2: Oh, my favorite time of the year. It is a. 366 00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:28,160 Speaker 5: Special season, but it is sort of integrated. 367 00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:30,440 Speaker 3: There are lots of fashion shows all over different parts 368 00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:34,760 Speaker 3: of the city, and our producer Jasmine JT Green went 369 00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:37,600 Speaker 3: out to the fashion shows to talk to people about 370 00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:41,000 Speaker 3: specifically fashion, but also luxury. 371 00:18:41,520 --> 00:18:43,320 Speaker 2: What has been your vision of luxury lately? 372 00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:48,359 Speaker 1: I feel like luxury used to have a bit more 373 00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:50,000 Speaker 1: quality productions. 374 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:53,040 Speaker 10: Now it's economical crisis and people are not ready to 375 00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:55,440 Speaker 10: spend a lot of money for the luxure and stuff. 376 00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:58,440 Speaker 11: I feel like with social media and the Internet and 377 00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:02,439 Speaker 11: different people within the industry becoming like aware of their 378 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:05,440 Speaker 11: leverage of talking about upcycling, and hopefully the train continues 379 00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:06,480 Speaker 11: for the younger generations. 380 00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:10,040 Speaker 1: I feel like now since the fashion was becoming, you know, 381 00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:14,000 Speaker 1: a lot more accessible to more people. I think that 382 00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:20,000 Speaker 1: the brands are producing in terms of quantity rather than quality. 383 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:25,080 Speaker 10: Where comfortable looks, good styles, and actually it should be 384 00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:26,320 Speaker 10: like affordable. 385 00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:29,359 Speaker 11: We don't have to buy everything new. There's luxury making things. 386 00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:31,000 Speaker 8: The truest luxury is time. 387 00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:33,040 Speaker 11: And then from there, like with this time, how can 388 00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:35,280 Speaker 11: I think about making better things and better decisions with 389 00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:35,640 Speaker 11: my money? 390 00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:39,840 Speaker 2: Am I tongue amended that the truest luxury is time. 391 00:19:40,280 --> 00:19:43,399 Speaker 5: You did choose your clothing in the dark. So I 392 00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:45,920 Speaker 5: do feel like this is this is a little. 393 00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:50,120 Speaker 3: Bit clearly max people are feeling a little bit skeptical 394 00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:53,080 Speaker 3: about putting down the kind of money you have to 395 00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:54,840 Speaker 3: put down to get luxury goods. 396 00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:58,080 Speaker 4: And it's the perfect segue to our guest, Lauren Sherman, 397 00:19:58,119 --> 00:19:59,280 Speaker 4: who is a writer at Puck. 398 00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:01,520 Speaker 2: She hosts the Fashion People podcast. 399 00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:04,600 Speaker 4: She also wrote the book Selling Sexy, Victoria's Secret and 400 00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:08,639 Speaker 4: the Unraveling of an American Icon. Lauren is also kind 401 00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:11,400 Speaker 4: of a fashion Week skeptic, and she's here. 402 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:14,840 Speaker 5: It is fashion Week, by the way, and she is. 403 00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:15,760 Speaker 2: Here to tell us about it. 404 00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:18,879 Speaker 4: Welcome Lauren, Thanks for having me, Okay, I gotta admit 405 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:21,040 Speaker 4: something to both of you, which is that I have 406 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:24,680 Speaker 4: lived in this city, New York City, for like pretty 407 00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:27,920 Speaker 4: much my entire life, and I do not know any 408 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:30,679 Speaker 4: really anything about fashion week. And I feel like I 409 00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:34,720 Speaker 4: know that it is very important. But to start, Lauren, 410 00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:37,080 Speaker 4: what is fashion week? And like, how does it sort 411 00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:39,320 Speaker 4: of compare to previous years or how is it evolving? 412 00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:40,560 Speaker 8: Sure, so there. 413 00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:44,320 Speaker 9: Are four major fashion weeks New York, London, Milan and Paris. 414 00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:46,679 Speaker 8: They became really big in the nineteen nineties. 415 00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:49,200 Speaker 9: They were always for the trade, so editors and buyers 416 00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:51,880 Speaker 9: to see the clothes and communicate what the clothes look like. 417 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:54,280 Speaker 8: Or to buy them for their stores. There are way 418 00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:55,280 Speaker 8: fewer stores. 419 00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:57,680 Speaker 9: That used to be. People can just see the images 420 00:20:57,720 --> 00:21:00,960 Speaker 9: on the internet. So now fashion shows are essentially a 421 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:04,560 Speaker 9: marketing tool, and in the last twenty years, the fashion 422 00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:08,240 Speaker 9: industry really has concentrated in Milan and Paris, where the 423 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:12,159 Speaker 9: big luxury groups are based. So New York Fashion Week, yes, 424 00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:15,240 Speaker 9: it contributes a lot to the GDP, but the reality 425 00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:17,439 Speaker 9: is there aren't a lot of people coming into the 426 00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:20,919 Speaker 9: city now for these shows. It's mostly local editors and 427 00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:23,919 Speaker 9: buyers and a lot of influencers. With the rise of 428 00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:26,879 Speaker 9: influencers that type of thing, and the brands use it 429 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:29,760 Speaker 9: as a marketing tool. I don't live in New York anymore. 430 00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:32,080 Speaker 9: I lived here for fifteen years. Being in the city, 431 00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:34,320 Speaker 9: I don't really notice fashion Week like it used to 432 00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:35,040 Speaker 9: because there used. 433 00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:37,040 Speaker 8: To be the Brian part, tense and all that. 434 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:37,400 Speaker 12: Well. 435 00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:39,600 Speaker 3: One of the functions, at least as I understand it, 436 00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:42,000 Speaker 3: of fashion Week though, is to sort of like set 437 00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:44,719 Speaker 3: the trends, kind of announce what the new trends are 438 00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:48,240 Speaker 3: for the season, and that does impact like billions and 439 00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:51,119 Speaker 3: billions of dollars all over the world. 440 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:55,000 Speaker 9: I'm sorry, not really Like the thing is, these fashion 441 00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:59,000 Speaker 9: shows don't really matter, like to be honest, like the 442 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:02,480 Speaker 9: ones that are in Europe. And also the trends really 443 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:05,200 Speaker 9: start on the street. So a lot of times what 444 00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:08,919 Speaker 9: the runway does is it commercializes trends that are on 445 00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:12,520 Speaker 9: the street or at couture or the big shows in Europe. 446 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:16,200 Speaker 9: So last season at New York Fashion Week, there were 447 00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:20,440 Speaker 9: tons of dance dresses which had been like very big in. 448 00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:24,560 Speaker 8: Paris for the last ballet Ish. Yes, yeah, exactly, so 449 00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:25,880 Speaker 8: I would say, look. 450 00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:28,120 Speaker 9: And the other thing is we live in this very 451 00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:31,879 Speaker 9: fragmented culture where a lot of people are just getting 452 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:35,480 Speaker 9: their fashion ideas from TikTok. So it used to be 453 00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:37,480 Speaker 9: that you would go to fashion Week and you say, 454 00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:39,520 Speaker 9: here are the colors that are really popular, here are 455 00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:41,639 Speaker 9: the trends that are really big. And that still exists 456 00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:44,720 Speaker 9: to an extent, but I would say that it's not 457 00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:48,240 Speaker 9: as much how the retailers inform their by that sort 458 00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:53,399 Speaker 9: of thing. It really does only exist so that consumers 459 00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:55,200 Speaker 9: know what the names of these brands. 460 00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:57,920 Speaker 4: We talk all the time about the K shaped economy, right, 461 00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:01,280 Speaker 4: and I feel and we've spoken a lot recently about 462 00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:05,480 Speaker 4: the bottom of the K and all the economic issues, 463 00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:08,520 Speaker 4: the sort of job insecurity stuff getting more expensive. And 464 00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:10,119 Speaker 4: then we've sort of been hoping that the top of 465 00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:13,560 Speaker 4: the K, the sort of luxury industry, very wealthy consumers 466 00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:16,680 Speaker 4: are gonna save us, save our economy. And yet there 467 00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:19,359 Speaker 4: have been there's talk any way of kind of a 468 00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:23,040 Speaker 4: luxury slowdown, Like, what are you seeing? Is the top 469 00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:26,639 Speaker 4: of the K as strong as it has been, is 470 00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:28,360 Speaker 4: what's happening in the business. 471 00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:30,879 Speaker 9: The tippy tippy top of the K is strong and 472 00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:33,760 Speaker 9: will always be strong because the rich keep getting richer, 473 00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:38,160 Speaker 9: but the size of these businesses. So this industry has 474 00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:41,040 Speaker 9: been consolidating for the last twenty years, thanks to growth 475 00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:44,560 Speaker 9: in China, thanks to changes in the way consumers behaved, 476 00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:47,560 Speaker 9: the challenges. The industry was growing, growing, growing. It was 477 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:51,040 Speaker 9: that the center of pop culture thanks to music and 478 00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:55,520 Speaker 9: all these celebrity, all this stuff. Twenty eighteen, I'd say 479 00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:59,280 Speaker 9: it peaked. It was just everybody wanted a Gucci loafer 480 00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:03,000 Speaker 9: or what have you. Essentially that bubble was about to 481 00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:06,960 Speaker 9: burst pre COVID, but then COVID extended it and the 482 00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:09,760 Speaker 9: growth even accelerated. 483 00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:11,440 Speaker 8: After COVID. 484 00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:16,520 Speaker 9: The bubble burst, and consumers they're very obsessed with experience. 485 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:20,359 Speaker 9: They have forty bags in their closet, they don't need more. 486 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:23,040 Speaker 9: And the brand sort of got lazy with the stuff 487 00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:26,120 Speaker 9: they were producing and assumed I can sell a five 488 00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:29,840 Speaker 9: thousand dollars handbag that is ugly to anyone and they'll 489 00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:32,280 Speaker 9: just buy it because they'll buy anything. And that kind 490 00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:35,920 Speaker 9: of behavior stopped, and consumers are asking a lot more 491 00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:38,840 Speaker 9: of these brands, especially in China, where I think that 492 00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:44,639 Speaker 9: the luxury brands really underestimated the sophistication and discernment of 493 00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:49,359 Speaker 9: the consumers. So really high end customer who's spending you know, 494 00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:52,680 Speaker 9: one hundred thousand dollars plus a year is still spending that. 495 00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:57,119 Speaker 9: It's the person who was maybe buying two handbags but 496 00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:00,920 Speaker 9: in mass that they're going to st goal to win back. 497 00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:03,159 Speaker 9: And so I think the next two, two or three years, 498 00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:04,399 Speaker 9: that's what we're gonna see. 499 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:07,600 Speaker 3: How are things looking right now in the luxury business 500 00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:10,720 Speaker 3: like it are we seeing some brands like maybe going away? 501 00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:13,320 Speaker 3: Obviously sounds like the super Top is doing okay, but like, 502 00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:15,080 Speaker 3: what about the kind of the middle brands like a 503 00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:17,520 Speaker 3: Coach who's like mil Coach. 504 00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:20,480 Speaker 9: Is actually doing super well right now because they had 505 00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:24,520 Speaker 9: a hit handbag and the price value equation as they 506 00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:27,200 Speaker 9: loved it was their hit handbag. Or business School, they 507 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:29,400 Speaker 9: have a couple. They have one called the Tabby. They 508 00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:31,159 Speaker 9: have this tote that I don't I think it's called 509 00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:33,800 Speaker 9: the Brooklyn tote. It's just a tote bag and I. 510 00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:34,399 Speaker 5: Both look at it. 511 00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:39,200 Speaker 8: Look the Coach thing is amazing. 512 00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:42,320 Speaker 5: Oh, it just looks a very classic. 513 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:44,680 Speaker 8: It looks just a classic and it's a good value. 514 00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:46,959 Speaker 9: So so you know, a twenty eight year old can 515 00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:48,399 Speaker 9: afford it, and. 516 00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:49,760 Speaker 5: I mean it is three hundred dollars. 517 00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:51,480 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that's total. I see this everywhere. 518 00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:55,399 Speaker 9: Yeah, but you know the bag most bags from luxury 519 00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:58,280 Speaker 9: brands start at like forty five hundred, so so it's 520 00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:01,280 Speaker 9: like very a very good value. But other brands in 521 00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:05,439 Speaker 9: that space are not performing. I think what is like 522 00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:08,680 Speaker 9: like a Michael Cores or something. The change is that 523 00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:11,680 Speaker 9: the consumer thinks they know a lot and they feel educated, 524 00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:13,680 Speaker 9: and they only want to buy stuff that they feel 525 00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:14,000 Speaker 9: like is. 526 00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:14,720 Speaker 8: Worth the money. 527 00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:18,159 Speaker 9: And so the brands that are imparting that through their 528 00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:22,040 Speaker 9: marketing and the product itself are winning. Burberries doing really 529 00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:25,679 Speaker 9: well in that space because they're super focused on outerwear, 530 00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:29,760 Speaker 9: and Trench's Montclair had their best January ever. 531 00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:32,480 Speaker 8: It's cold, so people bought jackets. 532 00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:36,040 Speaker 9: A lot of the fashion business that we're talking about 533 00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:39,959 Speaker 9: New York fashion smoke and mirrors, and you're not going 534 00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:42,160 Speaker 9: to see a ton of them go away, but what 535 00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:44,600 Speaker 9: you will see is a sort of change in their 536 00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:49,080 Speaker 9: place in the culture. And so it's a very interesting time. 537 00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:51,359 Speaker 9: It's been so much consolidation, and we all know what 538 00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:55,320 Speaker 9: happens after consolidation decline, So like, are. 539 00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:57,720 Speaker 8: We entering the state of managed decline? 540 00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:01,479 Speaker 9: I think potentially and that's it's exciting for me as 541 00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:04,080 Speaker 9: a business journalist because I've been writing about this stuffs 542 00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:07,280 Speaker 9: since two thousand and six when that consolidation really started. 543 00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:09,199 Speaker 8: But it's not going to be simple. 544 00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:12,520 Speaker 9: There will there will always be people who want this stuff. 545 00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:14,920 Speaker 9: But again, like we live in a more virtual world. 546 00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:17,600 Speaker 9: People don't go out as much as they used to do. 547 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:20,280 Speaker 9: They need a top for zoom, and they need a 548 00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:23,520 Speaker 9: couple dresses, and they need one nice pair of shoes, 549 00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:27,879 Speaker 9: And even if you are a shopping addict, you're going 550 00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:29,720 Speaker 9: to be spending it on plastic surgery. 551 00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:35,320 Speaker 4: Now you mentioned Chinese consumers becoming more price sensitive or 552 00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:39,120 Speaker 4: value sensitive or whatever. Is there a sense that Chinese 553 00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:42,440 Speaker 4: luxury brands do those have any sway? Because in other 554 00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:46,320 Speaker 4: areas where big American companies have sort of counted on 555 00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:50,240 Speaker 4: Chinese consumers, like in consumer electronics that's been a big factor, 556 00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:53,760 Speaker 4: like domestic the domestic market, and even in entertainment, right 557 00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:58,280 Speaker 4: like domestic Chinese films to some extent are crowding out Hollywood. 558 00:27:58,280 --> 00:27:59,840 Speaker 2: Fair Is that happening? In fashion? 559 00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:01,080 Speaker 8: It is happening. 560 00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:04,480 Speaker 9: And I often reference the fact that the top ten 561 00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:07,320 Speaker 9: grossing movies last year, I think two of them were 562 00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:10,960 Speaker 9: just in China and only distributed in China. It's finally 563 00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:14,359 Speaker 9: happening in fashion. It took a lot longer because I 564 00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:18,199 Speaker 9: think brand value and history and all of that stuff, 565 00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:21,639 Speaker 9: like some of these these fashion companies or leather goods 566 00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:25,120 Speaker 9: brands are five hundred years old, Like it's the history 567 00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:28,000 Speaker 9: does matter when you're trying to sell something to someone. 568 00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:30,639 Speaker 9: But yes, I think there's a really good example is 569 00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:36,040 Speaker 9: this brand Aerial, that is a sub brand of the 570 00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:41,600 Speaker 9: Chinese outerwear giant Bosa Dang, and they just hired this guy, 571 00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:43,720 Speaker 9: Kim Jones, who used to be the men'swear designer at 572 00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:47,240 Speaker 9: d Or and the women'swear designer at Fendi, both LVMH brands, 573 00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:49,760 Speaker 9: to create this capsule collection. 574 00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:52,040 Speaker 8: He's the creative director of Aeriel. 575 00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:55,760 Speaker 9: And I had never heard of Bosa Dang, but it 576 00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:59,280 Speaker 9: is a huge, huge company and it is mostly in 577 00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:01,600 Speaker 9: the last time I was in Paris for the tour 578 00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:05,000 Speaker 9: shows they're at Gallery Lafayette. There was a huge display 579 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:07,880 Speaker 9: of all the Kim Jones product and it was one 580 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:13,080 Speaker 9: of those things that Western companies just they were arrogant 581 00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:15,760 Speaker 9: and thought it would never happen, And now it is 582 00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:19,400 Speaker 9: because of the fact that the consumer in many cases 583 00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:22,960 Speaker 9: feels like they've been sort of lied to about the 584 00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:25,560 Speaker 9: value that these products actually have. 585 00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:29,720 Speaker 3: Interested in why people you think are becoming pickier or 586 00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:32,400 Speaker 3: more discerning or demanding more. Is it because they have 587 00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:34,240 Speaker 3: less money or something else going on? 588 00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:37,320 Speaker 9: I would say that I think it's a combo of 589 00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:39,760 Speaker 9: a bunch of things. One is that they don't have 590 00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:43,040 Speaker 9: as much money. Two is that they have so much 591 00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:47,080 Speaker 9: stuff already, why do they need more? And if it's 592 00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:50,280 Speaker 9: not cute or new looking, if it doesn't feel new, 593 00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:52,120 Speaker 9: if it just feels like the stuff you already have, 594 00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:55,239 Speaker 9: it's boring to keep buying it. The third part is 595 00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:58,280 Speaker 9: the second hand market, which I think that the luxury 596 00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:02,200 Speaker 9: industry really underestimated that impact of that. But the reality 597 00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:05,080 Speaker 9: of it is, in the last ten years, people are 598 00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:08,200 Speaker 9: very comfortable buying secondhand. Now you can buy a Louis 599 00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:11,600 Speaker 9: Vuitton never full, a Louis Vuitton tote on the real 600 00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:14,760 Speaker 9: real very easily, or Vestia or Poshmark these things and 601 00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:17,800 Speaker 9: it's look, look, that's not every single person, but there 602 00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:21,040 Speaker 9: are a lot of consumers. Those companies are online. They 603 00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:24,080 Speaker 9: do a ton of online marketing. Consumers know that they 604 00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:27,320 Speaker 9: exist and so a lot of this product they think, well, 605 00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:29,000 Speaker 9: I'll just buy it when it goes on the second 606 00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:31,840 Speaker 9: hand market. So if there was a bag that you 607 00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:34,560 Speaker 9: coveted that came out in nineteen ninety eight, you can 608 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:36,960 Speaker 9: find it and it's probably going to be an eighth 609 00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:38,840 Speaker 9: of what the new bags cost. 610 00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:42,800 Speaker 8: So I would say that those are the three big. 611 00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:46,720 Speaker 3: Factrtus competing with itself its own it totally goes to 612 00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:50,160 Speaker 3: Bundy Best, and they've decided not to engage on the 613 00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:51,720 Speaker 3: secondhand market for the most part. 614 00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:55,320 Speaker 9: And I understand why it's hard to get to make 615 00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:58,080 Speaker 9: a profit off of those refurbishing bags and things. But 616 00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:00,719 Speaker 9: at the same time, they're not controlling and they control 617 00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:01,400 Speaker 9: everything else. 618 00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:04,640 Speaker 4: But are there opportunities at the lower end, And I'm 619 00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:09,400 Speaker 4: thinking here about like there was this viral Burkin dupe 620 00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:12,000 Speaker 4: that was big on TikTok last year, like a Walmart 621 00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:14,680 Speaker 4: burke and dupe, or bad Bunny wearing Zara at the 622 00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:17,480 Speaker 4: Super Bowl, or like, is there any opportunity for sort 623 00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:20,240 Speaker 4: of companies to come in at the lower end, more 624 00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:23,920 Speaker 4: inexpensive stuff and kind of steal market share. 625 00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:25,160 Speaker 2: From some of these luxury companies. 626 00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:28,040 Speaker 9: Sure, look, I think at the lower lower end, that's 627 00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:31,800 Speaker 9: a different proposition, and you can't even really compare them. 628 00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:35,840 Speaker 9: Zara has done an interesting job of moving up market 629 00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:38,600 Speaker 9: and trying to distance themselves not only from H and M, 630 00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:41,520 Speaker 9: but also from Sheen and some of the really really 631 00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:45,240 Speaker 9: fast fashion competitors. And that's why it was so interesting 632 00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:48,200 Speaker 9: that Bad Bunny wore it, because it's kind of now 633 00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:54,440 Speaker 9: seen as I don't know, aspirational, but it's also available 634 00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:56,800 Speaker 9: to a lot of people, so it was really savvy, 635 00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:00,160 Speaker 9: I thought on his part to wear Zara. 636 00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:00,560 Speaker 2: Sure. 637 00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:03,520 Speaker 9: I think that the real opportunity is in that market 638 00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:07,120 Speaker 9: where Coach sits and Tory Birch and the aspirational market, 639 00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:11,640 Speaker 9: where if you what that market typically is is just 640 00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:14,600 Speaker 9: copies of designer stuff, but if you can kind of 641 00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:19,480 Speaker 9: make it feel more individual and more special, a consumer 642 00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:22,040 Speaker 9: who used to buy designer clothes but can't afford them 643 00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:25,800 Speaker 9: anymore because a pair of shoes is eighteen hundred dollars, 644 00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:28,840 Speaker 9: they might still want to spend seven or eight hundred 645 00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:31,280 Speaker 9: dollars on something. And so I think there's a lot 646 00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:35,680 Speaker 9: of opportunity in that space. But again, the size of 647 00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:38,080 Speaker 9: these businesses, they're still going to be big. They're going 648 00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:40,600 Speaker 9: to be profitable, but they are maybe not going to 649 00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:43,240 Speaker 9: grow as quickly as they did in the last twenty years, 650 00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:48,000 Speaker 9: and so there needs to be an understanding of what 651 00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:51,760 Speaker 9: consumers are prioritizing. So, you know, we see these lines 652 00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:54,880 Speaker 9: outside of these stores, and sometimes they're real, and a 653 00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:58,120 Speaker 9: lot of times they're not, Like it's like sort of fabricated. 654 00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:01,360 Speaker 9: And does anyone really want to stand in line anymore 655 00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:03,600 Speaker 9: for a T shirt or a pair of sneakers or 656 00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:04,520 Speaker 9: a handbag. 657 00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:04,960 Speaker 2: I don't. 658 00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:06,880 Speaker 9: It's just not how people want to spend their time 659 00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:09,840 Speaker 9: at this moment in history. 660 00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:15,000 Speaker 4: Lauren Sherman, Fashion People podcast, author of Selling Sexy, Thank 661 00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:16,240 Speaker 4: you so much for being here. 662 00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:17,000 Speaker 8: Thanks for having me. 663 00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:27,800 Speaker 3: Thanks Lauren Max Chafkin. It is time for underrated stories. 664 00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:29,360 Speaker 5: Do you want to go first? You want me to 665 00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:29,880 Speaker 5: go first? 666 00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:32,960 Speaker 4: I'll go first, okay, and you're gonna give me a 667 00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:35,200 Speaker 4: hard time, almost as hard time as you gave me 668 00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:37,360 Speaker 4: for having one hundred and twenty dollars shirt on. 669 00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:39,440 Speaker 5: I just asked, just underrated? 670 00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:43,680 Speaker 4: This story is about Elon Musk again, as I often do. 671 00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:46,120 Speaker 2: Sorry you're getting away from this. 672 00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:48,480 Speaker 5: Sorry, how is Elon doing? 673 00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:48,920 Speaker 2: Okay? 674 00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:54,240 Speaker 4: Like several days name this segment Anyway, Elon Musk has 675 00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:58,240 Speaker 4: announced it's a great fanfare that he does not care 676 00:33:58,240 --> 00:33:59,440 Speaker 4: about Mars anymore. 677 00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:01,640 Speaker 5: What that's his whole thing. 678 00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:04,080 Speaker 4: Maybe I overstay that, but he's he's Mars is on 679 00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:08,080 Speaker 4: the backboard burner and it's the Moon he's focusing. 680 00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:10,279 Speaker 5: Oh, for fashion week the moon? 681 00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:11,640 Speaker 2: The moon is? 682 00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:12,959 Speaker 5: What's the appeal of the moon? 683 00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:15,879 Speaker 4: Well, I think there are two things going on. One 684 00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:20,560 Speaker 4: is smart. There's more money in talking about the moon. 685 00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:25,040 Speaker 4: Right now, the US government is preparing this, these missions 686 00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:25,480 Speaker 4: to the Moon. 687 00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:26,440 Speaker 2: It's called artemists. 688 00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:28,400 Speaker 4: There're gonna be billions, maybe even tens of billions of 689 00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:32,160 Speaker 4: dollars spending that. Elon Musk, being a savvy guy who 690 00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:35,279 Speaker 4: kind of tries to go where the US government money is, 691 00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:38,319 Speaker 4: is following that. But but Musk is essentially saying it's 692 00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:40,920 Speaker 4: easier we can go to the moon. It's a lot closer, 693 00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:41,839 Speaker 4: you can go back. 694 00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:43,160 Speaker 5: That's undeniably true. 695 00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:44,520 Speaker 2: It's undeniably true. 696 00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:47,520 Speaker 4: And he is talking about I kid, you not making 697 00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:50,400 Speaker 4: and and I should say completely straight face, this is 698 00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:52,880 Speaker 4: not a bit, as far as I can tell, making 699 00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:55,000 Speaker 4: AI factories on the moon. 700 00:34:55,440 --> 00:35:00,359 Speaker 12: It sounds like a factories, like like solar panels, to Yeah, 701 00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:04,759 Speaker 12: solar panels and chips, and they're gonna slingshot those from 702 00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:06,240 Speaker 12: the Moon into orbit. 703 00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:07,720 Speaker 5: I think the Moon deserves better. 704 00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:11,680 Speaker 4: I think this is all very unrealistic. But as somebody 705 00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:15,959 Speaker 4: who has followed the Elon Musk and the Elon Musk 706 00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:20,359 Speaker 4: companies for basically like two decades now, uh, it is 707 00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:23,640 Speaker 4: very strange watching a guy who's basically spent the last 708 00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:26,440 Speaker 4: twenty years saying Mars is the thing, Mars is the thing, 709 00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:29,000 Speaker 4: Mars the thing to Mars is out, Moon is in. 710 00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:31,719 Speaker 3: I think he sold out Mars. I feel like, how 711 00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:33,480 Speaker 3: do you imagine Mars feels about this? 712 00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:36,240 Speaker 5: Like you know, he was, he was all about Mars. 713 00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:37,720 Speaker 5: They were at this love affair. 714 00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:41,000 Speaker 3: Now suddenly he just dropped Mars for the Moon because 715 00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:41,560 Speaker 3: it's easier. 716 00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:43,680 Speaker 4: Yeah, I know, the rovers are just gonna be roving 717 00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:45,080 Speaker 4: around in a very lonely. 718 00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:48,560 Speaker 3: Way, apparently to AI factories. This is a very bleak 719 00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:50,080 Speaker 3: version of the Moon. By the way, do you know 720 00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:51,279 Speaker 3: I own property on the Moon. 721 00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:52,560 Speaker 2: That can't be true. 722 00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:56,399 Speaker 5: It is true that embassy I bought property on the Moon. 723 00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:57,880 Speaker 5: I own an does. 724 00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:00,000 Speaker 4: The lunar embassy actually own the Moon? I feel like 725 00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:00,960 Speaker 4: you just got swept. 726 00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:05,080 Speaker 3: That is slightly controversial, But I do I own a 727 00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:06,239 Speaker 3: parcel of land on the moon. 728 00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:10,000 Speaker 2: All right, Well, when Elon opens his factory on the Moon. 729 00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:12,440 Speaker 5: I expect you compensation at least. 730 00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:13,960 Speaker 2: What's your underrated story? 731 00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:16,520 Speaker 5: Okay, so my underrated story has to do with real estate. 732 00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:19,239 Speaker 3: So we've talking about the K shaped economy for the 733 00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:21,839 Speaker 3: last X number of months, and I feel like this 734 00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:24,480 Speaker 3: is the latest and I have to say my personal 735 00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:28,359 Speaker 3: favorite iteration of it, which is, there's a great story 736 00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:30,960 Speaker 3: in the Wall Street Journal about this about luxury real estate, 737 00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:33,360 Speaker 3: like a lot of you know, the very most expensive 738 00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:36,759 Speaker 3: houses built in LA and New York and these big, 739 00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:42,000 Speaker 3: sprawling estates, and apparently security has become just this increasingly 740 00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:45,160 Speaker 3: big deal. There's a great number in here, apparently from 741 00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:49,680 Speaker 3: Coldwell Banker. The mentions of security are about forty now, 742 00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:51,960 Speaker 3: about like half of luxury homes, where it was more 743 00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:55,960 Speaker 3: like a third just a couple of years ago. And 744 00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:57,640 Speaker 3: we're talking things like moats. 745 00:36:57,840 --> 00:36:58,160 Speaker 2: Moats. 746 00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:01,680 Speaker 4: Moats are back wait, you mean like back from the 747 00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:04,840 Speaker 4: fifteenth century, like they were in a style back. 748 00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:07,840 Speaker 3: When the K shaped economy it was like the original 749 00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:11,760 Speaker 3: K shaped economy, like medieval times. Yeah, so moats are back. 750 00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:15,200 Speaker 3: But also these other kind of interesting security measures. They 751 00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:18,040 Speaker 3: talk about one house that had thirteen dead bolts on 752 00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:21,080 Speaker 3: the front door. And then also these these kinds of 753 00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:24,280 Speaker 3: trees called sour orange trees are very invoked. They're spiky. 754 00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:26,160 Speaker 3: I guess they smell really nice, but they have like 755 00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:28,839 Speaker 3: spikes all over them, so you can plant them around 756 00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:33,080 Speaker 3: your property for safety. But there's like increase leaning into 757 00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:35,160 Speaker 3: security for the very rich. 758 00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:39,560 Speaker 4: You know, So bleak moats are bleak stacey. This is 759 00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:41,239 Speaker 4: this is kind of depressing. And this is what we're 760 00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:44,400 Speaker 4: worried about, is if you're an alligator, this is what 761 00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:45,080 Speaker 4: we're worried about. 762 00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:46,160 Speaker 2: The K shaped economy. 763 00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:49,440 Speaker 5: There's not a real estate for alligators. But maybe not interested. 764 00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:53,200 Speaker 4: It's not just that, hey, it's bad to live in 765 00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:55,600 Speaker 4: a world where you know, a very small number of 766 00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:59,080 Speaker 4: people control a vast percentage of the wealth. But also 767 00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:01,920 Speaker 4: like it creates social instability, It creates a market for 768 00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:05,400 Speaker 4: moats and alligators and all sorts of stuff. Also people 769 00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:07,799 Speaker 4: need to chill out, like there's too much security in 770 00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:09,040 Speaker 4: our in our world. 771 00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:11,799 Speaker 3: I mean, I think I think it also speaks to 772 00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:15,000 Speaker 3: this like us and them kind of mentality. That's been 773 00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:16,440 Speaker 3: growing in this country where it's like. 774 00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:18,959 Speaker 5: Very much as zero. 775 00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:21,080 Speaker 3: They always say an economic zero sum game, this is 776 00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:23,320 Speaker 3: always the thing, and I do not believe that's true. 777 00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:25,360 Speaker 3: And there are a million economic studies that back me 778 00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:28,440 Speaker 3: up that when a society gets wealthier and that wealth 779 00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:31,920 Speaker 3: is able to most people are able to access that wealth, 780 00:38:32,239 --> 00:38:36,640 Speaker 3: then you don't need sour orange trees in every corner 781 00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:37,920 Speaker 3: of your compounds. 782 00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:40,799 Speaker 4: One thing I'll say in praise of moats, though, tell 783 00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:42,840 Speaker 4: me nice to have like a little water you know, 784 00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:44,160 Speaker 4: a little like a water feature. 785 00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:49,120 Speaker 3: I mean, I honestly like moats are kind of awesome, 786 00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:52,120 Speaker 3: Like what is wrong? Like, but it just feels like 787 00:38:52,160 --> 00:39:01,960 Speaker 3: a bad sign. This show is produced by Stacy Wong 788 00:39:02,080 --> 00:39:02,959 Speaker 3: and Jasmine JT. 789 00:39:03,080 --> 00:39:03,319 Speaker 9: Green. 790 00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:07,719 Speaker 3: Magnus Hendrickson is our supervising producer, Sam Rogig handles engineering, 791 00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:11,200 Speaker 3: and Dave Purcell factchecks. Special thanks to Jeff Muscus, Julia 792 00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:14,080 Speaker 3: Rubin and Maria Ling. And if you have a minute, 793 00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:16,120 Speaker 3: please rate and review the show. It really means a 794 00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:19,120 Speaker 3: lot to us. Also, if you have a story that 795 00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:22,480 Speaker 3: should be our business, send us an email. Everybody's at 796 00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:25,480 Speaker 3: Bloomberg dot net. That is, everybody's with an s at 797 00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:27,880 Speaker 3: Bloomberg dot net. Thank you for listening, and see you 798 00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:28,400 Speaker 3: next week.