WEBVTT - What to Expect When You’re Expecting the Epstein Files

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<v Speaker 1>I want to say in the record here that the

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<v Speaker 1>subject line of the calendar invite for this recording session

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<v Speaker 1>is feya callen Epstein slash Santa. It makes me wonder like,

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<v Speaker 1>wouldn't that just be the ultimate kick in the face

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<v Speaker 1>of twenty twenty five that Santa Claus is on the

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<v Speaker 1>Epstein list.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, for the record, we're not talking about Santa right

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<v Speaker 2>this second. That's a different episode. I want to talk

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<v Speaker 2>about how the FBI turned over dozens of emails to

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<v Speaker 2>me that revealed details about how hundreds of the Bureau's

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<v Speaker 2>special agents and personnel from the Freedom of Information Act

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<v Speaker 2>Office reviewed and processed the Epstein files earlier this year.

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<v Speaker 2>Plus the best chance forgetting the Epstein files released. Let's go.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm investigative journalist Jason Leopold. I spend most of my

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<v Speaker 2>days getting documents from the government.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm attorney Matt Tapik, and I fight them in court

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<v Speaker 1>to open their files when they don't want to.

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<v Speaker 2>From Bloomberg and no smiling, this is Disclosure, a podcast

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<v Speaker 2>about buying loose government secrets, the Freedom of Information Act,

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<v Speaker 2>and the the unexpected places that takes us. Now, before

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<v Speaker 2>we get into the documents, I recently pried loose and

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<v Speaker 2>the rest of it. Let's just recap what happened in

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<v Speaker 2>Epstein Land these last few weeks, so, Matt. Congress has

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<v Speaker 2>now passed a bill which is called the Epstein Files

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<v Speaker 2>Transparency Act, that compels the Department of Justice to release

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<v Speaker 2>their files on Jeffrey Epstein within thirty days, and President

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<v Speaker 2>Trump has already signed that into law.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I thought that the speculation about would Trump sign

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<v Speaker 1>it or out. What's kind of funny is like he

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<v Speaker 1>has the power himself to order get doj to release this.

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<v Speaker 1>He doesn't need Congress in order to do that. It

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<v Speaker 1>seems like it's taking an act of Congress to make

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<v Speaker 1>them do it. But it always felt a little weird

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<v Speaker 1>to me, like he's signing a bill that's saying do

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<v Speaker 1>what you ought to be doing.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, he could have released this at any time by

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<v Speaker 2>just calling for the Justice Department to release it, which

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<v Speaker 2>is exactly what he has done on other high profile

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<v Speaker 2>political matters earlier this year.

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<v Speaker 1>Donald Trump has just said that he is going to

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<v Speaker 1>release the files around the death of President JFK tomorrow.

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<v Speaker 2>The Trump administration has gone public with more than two

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<v Speaker 2>hundred and thirty thousand pages of records related to doctor

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<v Speaker 2>Martin Luther King Junior's assassination. But what's interesting about this

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<v Speaker 2>the Cepstein Transparency Act is what it allows the Justice

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<v Speaker 2>Department to do, and it allows them to withhold certain information,

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<v Speaker 2>particularly information within these files that could interfere with an

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<v Speaker 2>ongoing law enforcement investigation, which in foyle Land Matt we

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<v Speaker 2>like to refer to as the B seven A, well.

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<v Speaker 1>B seven A, but the investigations that would be the

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<v Speaker 1>predicate for that or what like. The President had requested

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<v Speaker 1>that Attorney General Pambindi opened some investigations into Bill Clinton

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<v Speaker 1>and some other Democrats or democratsretically inclined people, people that

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<v Speaker 1>I believe the truth Social Post or whatever it was

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<v Speaker 1>he posted it in like specifically referred to Democrats. So

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<v Speaker 1>just openly saying I want you to investigate some Democrats

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<v Speaker 1>about this, and.

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<v Speaker 2>Not surprisingly they they're going to do that, it seemed.

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<v Speaker 2>But that directive by Trump came one week prior to

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<v Speaker 2>the passage of this bill, and what we don't know

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<v Speaker 2>is what does an investigation like that look like? What

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<v Speaker 2>are they going to investigate? So Trump delivering this directive

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<v Speaker 2>via truth Social to Pambondi, so that means that you know,

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<v Speaker 2>whatever Epstein files they may have that relate to these

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<v Speaker 2>folks could arguably be withheld.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean I think that if they pull that,

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<v Speaker 1>like I mean, there's a lot of angry people already

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<v Speaker 1>about all this. If they now are pull the rug

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<v Speaker 1>out again and say, oh, you know, hardly release anything

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<v Speaker 1>because of these ongoing investigations, I don't know what's going

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<v Speaker 1>to happen. I think there's going to be a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of people that are going to be very upset about that.

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<v Speaker 2>So, Matt, this kind of gets at a fundamental question

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<v Speaker 2>when we talk about the release of the Epstein files.

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<v Speaker 2>When we say Epstein files, what are we actually talking about.

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<v Speaker 2>This is a guy who is investigated by federal authorities

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<v Speaker 2>starting around the mid two thousands. He signed a controversial

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<v Speaker 2>plea deal and did some light prison time, and then

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<v Speaker 2>he was arrested again in twenty nineteen and accused of

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<v Speaker 2>sex trafficking miners. And the idea is that those investigations

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<v Speaker 2>threw up a lot of paperwork, presumably about interviews with victims, evidence,

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<v Speaker 2>names of associates and co conspirators. So now with the

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<v Speaker 2>Epstein Files Transparency Act, there's going to be a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of discussion of what gets released and what may get withheld.

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<v Speaker 2>So the point of this, Matt, is that over the

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<v Speaker 2>past year, I've been doing some document requests and following

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<v Speaker 2>some other FOYA actions related to Epstein, and it all

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<v Speaker 2>helps us get a handle on what's in the Epstein

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<v Speaker 2>files and how the government has been handling them. And

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<v Speaker 2>as you know, Matt, this has been building since Trump

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<v Speaker 2>took office again in January. A lot of Trump's supporters

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<v Speaker 2>want this information out in the public, and Trump seemed

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<v Speaker 2>to say during the campaign that he'd do that, but

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<v Speaker 2>by the summer that was looking less likely. So in July,

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<v Speaker 2>the Justice Department and FBI released a joint statement that said,

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<v Speaker 2>it is the determination of the Department of Justice and

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<v Speaker 2>the Federal Bureau of Investigation that no further disclosure would

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<v Speaker 2>be appropriate or warranted. Q. The outrage, Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, I mean, there are a lot of people for

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<v Speaker 1>whom this is the most important issue in American politics

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<v Speaker 1>right now. Well, and you're just telling them, yeah, we

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<v Speaker 1>changed our mind, there's nothing to see here, move on.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And this is the biggest political story of the year.

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<v Speaker 2>So earlier this year I found a wide ranging Foyer

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<v Speaker 2>request for everything related to the processing of the Epstein files.

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<v Speaker 2>I was really interested in how the records were processed,

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<v Speaker 2>and I was even more interested did within the context

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<v Speaker 2>of how everything went down with the rollout of the

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<v Speaker 2>Epstein files earlier this year. What I was hoping was

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<v Speaker 2>to get a look at what was going on behind

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<v Speaker 2>closed doors with the Epstein records going back to the

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<v Speaker 2>beginning of the new administration. And remember, Matt just a

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<v Speaker 2>few weeks after Trump was inaugurated back in February, his

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<v Speaker 2>brand new Attorney General, Pam Bondi, calls a group of

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<v Speaker 2>right wing influencers to the White House for an event

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<v Speaker 2>because she has something to give them. They walked out

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<v Speaker 2>of the White House holding binders and hands them binders.

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<v Speaker 2>Look at what we got today, Let's say Epstein Files

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<v Speaker 2>Phase one. See that right there, that's the Epstein files.

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<v Speaker 2>Bondy has this kind of grand rollout, and so shortly thereafter,

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, I want to say more like I'm almost

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<v Speaker 2>immediately thereafter, the MAGA crowd goes nuts. We frankly assumed

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<v Speaker 2>this had at least some smoking guns. And now it's

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<v Speaker 2>a backlash. That's not what's in this binder at all.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a backlash against Bondi. It's a backlash against the FBI.

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<v Speaker 1>It is the biggest disappointment I think that you'll.

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<v Speaker 2>Find, because it turns out that these documents that were

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<v Speaker 2>in the binder had been previously released in court cases

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<v Speaker 2>and previously released by the FBI. So it ignited a firestorm.

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<v Speaker 1>This is kind of their own folks, right, they invite

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<v Speaker 1>all these people that are kind of from the MAGA world,

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<v Speaker 1>and they do they think they're so stupid that they're

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<v Speaker 1>not going to realize that these documents have already be

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<v Speaker 1>outed and out there. I mean, of course folks are

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<v Speaker 1>going to pick over every document. And like, I was

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<v Speaker 1>this just incompetence or was it? Did they were they

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<v Speaker 1>trying to pull a fast one? Or well I don't

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<v Speaker 1>think they actually pulled a fast one.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't. I just don't think they actually even looked

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<v Speaker 2>at any of the files they were going to release.

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<v Speaker 2>And so what happened after that is Bondi, who had

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<v Speaker 2>been really embarrassed by this, fires off a letter a

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<v Speaker 2>letter to FBI Director Cash Paatel the AG demanding the

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<v Speaker 2>release of the bureau's full and complete Epstein files.

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<v Speaker 1>So she's throwing Cash Patel kind of under the bus here, like, hey,

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<v Speaker 1>what are you guys doing.

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<v Speaker 2>This stuff has already been released exactly, and she kind

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<v Speaker 2>of blamed him for this. She says, I repeatedly questioned

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<v Speaker 2>whether this was the full set of documents responsive to

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<v Speaker 2>my request, and as she later explains on Fox.

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<v Speaker 3>News, you're looking at these documents, going, these aren't all

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<v Speaker 3>the Epstein files.

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<v Speaker 2>Bondi's letter to Patel goes on to say that she

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<v Speaker 2>knows there are more Epstein documents. She writes she has

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<v Speaker 2>a source in the FBI field office in New York

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<v Speaker 2>who told her so, and.

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<v Speaker 3>So a source said, ohoh, all this evidence is sitting

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<v Speaker 3>in the Southern District of New York's shock.

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<v Speaker 2>So she then tells Cash Ptel that he has until

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<v Speaker 2>February twenty eighth to have the FBI deliver the full

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<v Speaker 2>and complete Epstein files to her office.

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<v Speaker 3>And we got hopefully all of them Friday at eight am,

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<v Speaker 3>thousands of pages of documents.

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<v Speaker 2>And she goes on to say that she wants a

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<v Speaker 2>full investigation as to why her order to the FBI

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<v Speaker 2>originally wasn't followed.

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<v Speaker 3>Cash is going to get me and himself really a

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<v Speaker 3>detailed report as to why all these documents and evidence

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<v Speaker 3>had been withheld, and you know, we're going to go

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<v Speaker 3>through it, go through it as fast as we can.

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<v Speaker 2>So, Matt, as you know, I actually asked for that

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<v Speaker 2>detailed report, but they withheld it under a FOYA exemption.

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<v Speaker 2>But as I reported earlier this year for Bloomberg, after

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<v Speaker 2>all this happens, cash Ptel directs FBI agents from the

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<v Speaker 2>New York Field Office, the Washington d C. Field Office,

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<v Speaker 2>and personnel from the Records Information Dissemination Section or RIZ.

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<v Speaker 2>Those are the folks that process FOYER requests. And they

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<v Speaker 2>were all holed up in a facility in Virginia which

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<v Speaker 2>is called the Central Records Complex. So what do I

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<v Speaker 2>mean by processing. Well, when reviewing doc documents for a

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<v Speaker 2>ventral release, FOYA officers have to determine what can be

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<v Speaker 2>released and what needs to be withheld using nine exemptions

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<v Speaker 2>under the FOYA. For example, they would withhold information based

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<v Speaker 2>on someone's personal privacy or an ongoing investigation. And they

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<v Speaker 2>begin processing these EPSTEIN files right they're they're they're pulling

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<v Speaker 2>all nighters, they're you know, working twenty hour shifts just

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<v Speaker 2>to process the Epstein files. So I was really interested

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<v Speaker 2>in what was taking place. Behind the scenes, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>how these requests were processed, how much money they spent

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<v Speaker 2>on FBI personnel.

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<v Speaker 1>So this is like a this is like a meta request,

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<v Speaker 1>right like you're you're trying to get it's a foya

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<v Speaker 1>about a foya. Yes, So most agencies, as they're processing requests,

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<v Speaker 1>they have some kind of a database that they keep

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<v Speaker 1>track of all the steps received, request forwarded to analyst,

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<v Speaker 1>analyst rans search forty two thousand, search results narrowed with

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<v Speaker 1>search terms sent, extension, letter to request, or like all

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<v Speaker 1>those little details from a lot of agencies get tracked

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<v Speaker 1>in some kind of a centralized database, and we usually

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<v Speaker 1>refer to those as processing.

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<v Speaker 2>Those And that's informative because you sort of learn how

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<v Speaker 2>these requests are processed and maybe even you know, learn

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<v Speaker 2>about a record keeping system. So I find that to

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<v Speaker 2>be good information to get insight into how the agency

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<v Speaker 2>is handling a foyer request.

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<v Speaker 1>It kind of reminds me of like the updates or

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<v Speaker 1>texts I get from United Airlines about what's going on

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<v Speaker 1>with my checked bag. Like it'll say like it's like

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<v Speaker 1>through the screening, you've been loaded onto the plane. It's

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<v Speaker 1>like it's on the cart, you know. Yeah, but about

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<v Speaker 1>way more detail than that.

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<v Speaker 2>So I filed multiple Foyer requests over the summer, and

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<v Speaker 2>then Bloomberg sued to compel the really piece of these records,

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<v Speaker 2>and recently the FBI released about sixty pages of emails

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<v Speaker 2>and other documents I asked for related to the processing

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<v Speaker 2>in the Epstein files. So what do you get. We

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<v Speaker 2>have a bunch of emails and they're kind of heavily redacted,

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<v Speaker 2>but there is still a lot of info in here,

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<v Speaker 2>and there's some real interesting takeaways here.

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<v Speaker 1>So let's go through the timeline here. So where does

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<v Speaker 1>the story of the emails begin.

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<v Speaker 2>It begins in March, early March twenty twenty five this year.

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<v Speaker 2>There's an email here from the assistant director of the

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<v Speaker 2>Information Management Division stated March tenth, and it says that

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<v Speaker 2>we are prepared to receive boxes tomorrow as New York

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<v Speaker 2>agents are traveling to the Washington Field office in the

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<v Speaker 2>morning and will arrive to Winchester, that's the location of

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<v Speaker 2>the Central Records Complex, where they will start photographing and

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<v Speaker 2>we will start scanning and processing the physical files. Why

0:13:11.360 --> 0:13:14.800
<v Speaker 2>do you think that they were photographing the files?

0:13:15.360 --> 0:13:20.480
<v Speaker 1>Well, that's interesting because like regular paper documents, you would

0:13:20.520 --> 0:13:23.920
<v Speaker 1>think they would just scan them, you wouldn't need to

0:13:23.920 --> 0:13:28.120
<v Speaker 1>photograph them. It suggests that potentially there's some things that

0:13:28.400 --> 0:13:33.320
<v Speaker 1>aren't like documents, Like there could be physical evidence, right,

0:13:33.480 --> 0:13:35.319
<v Speaker 1>there could be a.

0:13:34.800 --> 0:13:36.920
<v Speaker 2>Right, it could be anything. It could be a beer bottle,

0:13:36.920 --> 0:13:38.319
<v Speaker 2>it could be a hair brush, you know whatever.

0:13:38.400 --> 0:13:42.160
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, they might be taking photos of those physical items

0:13:42.440 --> 0:13:45.760
<v Speaker 1>that you can't scan, but we're just kind of guessing

0:13:45.760 --> 0:13:47.199
<v Speaker 1>at that at least for now.

0:13:47.640 --> 0:13:50.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. The email goes on to say, once I see

0:13:50.520 --> 0:13:54.640
<v Speaker 2>the volume, I'll have a better estimate of processing times.

0:13:54.960 --> 0:13:59.280
<v Speaker 2>Although I suggest we do a rolling delivery to further

0:13:59.400 --> 0:14:06.360
<v Speaker 2>demonstrate the FBI's commitment to delivery and transparency. Yeah. Interesting,

0:14:06.480 --> 0:14:09.360
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I think that's just funny because the FBI

0:14:09.960 --> 0:14:15.600
<v Speaker 2>wants to demonstrate to the DOJ that its commitment to transparency.

0:14:16.240 --> 0:14:18.280
<v Speaker 2>It also says, by the way, in this email, and

0:14:18.320 --> 0:14:21.520
<v Speaker 2>again this very early is March tenth, so it says

0:14:21.640 --> 0:14:24.960
<v Speaker 2>that you know, in a meeting with the Criminal Division

0:14:24.960 --> 0:14:28.080
<v Speaker 2>in New York and Washington Field offices, there were questions

0:14:28.120 --> 0:14:31.280
<v Speaker 2>on the types of reactions the FBI should apply to

0:14:31.320 --> 0:14:34.280
<v Speaker 2>these files, and then there's like just a really long

0:14:34.680 --> 0:14:35.680
<v Speaker 2>redaction box.

0:14:35.880 --> 0:14:38.880
<v Speaker 1>So do we know anything from these emails about like

0:14:38.960 --> 0:14:42.120
<v Speaker 1>what kinds of records the FBI was reviewing.

0:14:43.040 --> 0:14:45.760
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, yeah, I mean we do. And it's kind

0:14:45.760 --> 0:14:52.080
<v Speaker 2>of fascinating. So on one page, they're discussing FBI search

0:14:52.160 --> 0:15:00.480
<v Speaker 2>warrant execution photos, FBI interview videos, Julaine Maxwell's prison security footage,

0:15:00.520 --> 0:15:04.840
<v Speaker 2>time lapsed video footage from an office, and in parentheses

0:15:04.880 --> 0:15:08.760
<v Speaker 2>it says no persons identified and no crimes observed, street

0:15:08.840 --> 0:15:13.600
<v Speaker 2>surveillance footage, aerial footage from FBI search warrant execution, police

0:15:13.640 --> 0:15:14.720
<v Speaker 2>interview videos.

0:15:14.920 --> 0:15:17.600
<v Speaker 1>And you're just salivating. See you're like, oh man, oh yeah,

0:15:17.640 --> 0:15:18.720
<v Speaker 1>I gotta get this stuff.

0:15:19.400 --> 0:15:24.520
<v Speaker 2>And marketing videos, marketing videos, marketing videos. I mean, this

0:15:24.600 --> 0:15:27.640
<v Speaker 2>is what's this is what's identifying? Do we not know?

0:15:27.840 --> 0:15:33.080
<v Speaker 2>I don't know marketing videos, Yeah, it's it's that like,

0:15:33.720 --> 0:15:34.160
<v Speaker 2>is that.

0:15:34.240 --> 0:15:38.840
<v Speaker 1>Mister Epstein's like, come visit my island kind of marketing videos?

0:15:38.880 --> 0:15:40.640
<v Speaker 2>I don't know. I mean, I'm trying to figure out

0:15:40.720 --> 0:15:45.840
<v Speaker 2>what marketing videos. Yeah. Oh. Actually, the other thing that's

0:15:45.880 --> 0:15:51.120
<v Speaker 2>here is they're discussing the prison video of Epstein before

0:15:51.160 --> 0:15:54.560
<v Speaker 2>he was found dead and after he was found dead,

0:15:54.600 --> 0:15:58.120
<v Speaker 2>and they discussed this video and eight terabytes of data

0:15:58.360 --> 0:16:00.800
<v Speaker 2>related to Epstein, so that is some thing that they

0:16:00.800 --> 0:16:01.840
<v Speaker 2>were looking at as well.

0:16:02.120 --> 0:16:05.400
<v Speaker 1>So do these documents tell us anything about sort of

0:16:05.400 --> 0:16:10.320
<v Speaker 1>the interactions between FBI and DJ, because, like you know,

0:16:10.360 --> 0:16:12.520
<v Speaker 1>this is a little bit of a tense This is

0:16:12.720 --> 0:16:16.480
<v Speaker 1>after the binders that really weren't anything new, right, So

0:16:16.640 --> 0:16:19.280
<v Speaker 1>like you got a little bit of an awkward relationship

0:16:19.280 --> 0:16:21.680
<v Speaker 1>between the FBI and the DJ. Are they communicating with

0:16:21.760 --> 0:16:22.640
<v Speaker 1>each other at all? Here?

0:16:23.240 --> 0:16:26.040
<v Speaker 2>Great question? I mean, in these records, it does not

0:16:26.160 --> 0:16:30.640
<v Speaker 2>appear that they're communicating. And in fact, there's one email

0:16:30.880 --> 0:16:34.240
<v Speaker 2>that asked the question of did you happen to send

0:16:34.280 --> 0:16:39.840
<v Speaker 2>the results of the below review to DJ at any point?

0:16:40.080 --> 0:16:44.480
<v Speaker 2>And the response is we definitely did not provide anything

0:16:44.520 --> 0:16:49.440
<v Speaker 2>to DJ, just to HQ headquarters. So it doesn't appear.

0:16:49.480 --> 0:16:51.360
<v Speaker 2>And this just may be the fact that it's early

0:16:51.400 --> 0:16:55.000
<v Speaker 2>at least in these documents that the FBI released, that

0:16:55.000 --> 0:16:59.240
<v Speaker 2>there's no communication with DJ. But I also want to

0:16:59.280 --> 0:17:03.960
<v Speaker 2>know that the FBI did withhold one hundred and sixty

0:17:04.200 --> 0:17:05.560
<v Speaker 2>pages in its entirety.

0:17:05.720 --> 0:17:11.280
<v Speaker 1>Okay, so not a ton about the DOJ FBI relationship.

0:17:11.680 --> 0:17:14.080
<v Speaker 1>So do we learn anything about like did they do

0:17:14.119 --> 0:17:18.320
<v Speaker 1>this in phases? Like, how did they structure the processing? Yeah,

0:17:18.359 --> 0:17:21.000
<v Speaker 1>I see reference to like phase one in phase two.

0:17:21.200 --> 0:17:25.679
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and so another document here. You know, again this

0:17:25.760 --> 0:17:29.280
<v Speaker 2>is all in March, and I think what's noteworthy is

0:17:29.560 --> 0:17:32.159
<v Speaker 2>the bulk of the work was taking place in March.

0:17:32.320 --> 0:17:36.520
<v Speaker 2>You know, almost one thousand FBI agents in personnel working

0:17:36.840 --> 0:17:41.320
<v Speaker 2>during the month of March. Just plowing through these records.

0:17:41.359 --> 0:17:45.320
<v Speaker 2>You know, there's an email on Sunday, March twenty third,

0:17:45.359 --> 0:17:47.600
<v Speaker 2>twenty twenty five, six forty three pm, so you can

0:17:47.640 --> 0:17:50.840
<v Speaker 2>already see that they're working on the weekends. Right stand by,

0:17:51.200 --> 0:17:56.160
<v Speaker 2>we have identified more files requiring phase one review. Please

0:17:56.359 --> 0:18:00.760
<v Speaker 2>continue to refresh as files will be populated momentarily.

0:18:00.920 --> 0:18:03.600
<v Speaker 1>So do we know anything about what those phases mean?

0:18:04.240 --> 0:18:09.280
<v Speaker 2>Now? Unfortunately the documents don't describe what those phases refer

0:18:09.359 --> 0:18:11.360
<v Speaker 2>to what it actually means.

0:18:11.359 --> 0:18:14.240
<v Speaker 1>And it looks like so then upon completion of Phase two,

0:18:14.600 --> 0:18:17.919
<v Speaker 1>the FBI is going to provide what they call see

0:18:17.920 --> 0:18:21.679
<v Speaker 1>through redaction files for DOJ review, which to me reads

0:18:21.760 --> 0:18:25.000
<v Speaker 1>like FBI is doing the work of identifying what to redect,

0:18:25.000 --> 0:18:27.959
<v Speaker 1>but they're giving it to DOJ so DJ can see

0:18:28.400 --> 0:18:29.359
<v Speaker 1>what the plan.

0:18:29.280 --> 0:18:31.960
<v Speaker 2>Is is that how you read that? That's how exactly

0:18:32.000 --> 0:18:32.679
<v Speaker 2>how I read that?

0:18:32.960 --> 0:18:36.399
<v Speaker 1>So Jason, in March, they're doing all this processing, So

0:18:37.119 --> 0:18:39.120
<v Speaker 1>what's the next kind of big thing that happens.

0:18:40.440 --> 0:18:43.320
<v Speaker 2>Well, the next big thing, at least according to these emails,

0:18:43.520 --> 0:18:46.960
<v Speaker 2>is April fifteenth, the tax day. An email goes out

0:18:47.280 --> 0:18:52.960
<v Speaker 2>to FBI personnel that says cash Patel quote asked for

0:18:53.200 --> 0:18:58.200
<v Speaker 2>status of all remaining Epstein related reviews. Makes sense, Yeah,

0:18:58.240 --> 0:19:00.719
<v Speaker 2>it makes sense. But there's no response to that email.

0:19:00.720 --> 0:19:03.199
<v Speaker 2>But Ptel is weighing in, right, The director of the

0:19:03.280 --> 0:19:06.199
<v Speaker 2>FBI wants an update. Where are we at, you know,

0:19:06.359 --> 0:19:08.919
<v Speaker 2>with the Epstein files? So when do they finish the review?

0:19:09.400 --> 0:19:13.880
<v Speaker 2>So it appears around May second is when they kind

0:19:13.920 --> 0:19:16.119
<v Speaker 2>of wrap things up. An FBI employee from the New

0:19:16.200 --> 0:19:20.040
<v Speaker 2>York Field office sends an email and attached a document

0:19:20.600 --> 0:19:26.720
<v Speaker 2>titled Epstein Overview Final that summarize their work. Well do

0:19:26.760 --> 0:19:29.840
<v Speaker 2>we what does? What does it say? Unfortunately, you know,

0:19:29.880 --> 0:19:35.840
<v Speaker 2>the FBI withheld the attachment. No, so they withheld those

0:19:35.880 --> 0:19:40.320
<v Speaker 2>attachments citing a number of different FOYA exemptions such as

0:19:40.480 --> 0:19:45.359
<v Speaker 2>attorney client privilege, the deliberative process, and others.

0:19:45.400 --> 0:19:47.720
<v Speaker 1>So they're taunting you. They're taunting you by telling you

0:19:47.760 --> 0:19:49.680
<v Speaker 1>what's there, but that you can't have it?

0:19:49.800 --> 0:19:52.320
<v Speaker 2>Can I tell you that? As I'm reading these files

0:19:52.520 --> 0:19:57.080
<v Speaker 2>and the subject lines refer to a PowerPoint or a document,

0:19:57.119 --> 0:19:59.560
<v Speaker 2>I'm like clicking. I'm clicking to see if there's any

0:19:59.680 --> 0:20:05.439
<v Speaker 2>chance that like it will magically open up. Did not.

0:20:05.680 --> 0:20:10.480
<v Speaker 2>It did not, Bummer, But importantly to me, like this

0:20:10.520 --> 0:20:14.840
<v Speaker 2>is the biggest standout on these records. So I asked

0:20:15.000 --> 0:20:18.199
<v Speaker 2>how much money they spent on overtime, for example, for

0:20:18.680 --> 0:20:23.000
<v Speaker 2>agents who are tasked with processing these records. So go

0:20:23.080 --> 0:20:24.840
<v Speaker 2>to page fourteen of the release.

0:20:24.920 --> 0:20:27.840
<v Speaker 1>Okay, so I'm looking at it. It's a chart and

0:20:27.880 --> 0:20:32.720
<v Speaker 1>then the division name column says Business Strategy and Analytics Section,

0:20:33.240 --> 0:20:39.240
<v Speaker 1>Counterintelligence Division, counter Terrorism Division, Criminal Investigative Division, Cyberdivision, Directorate

0:20:39.280 --> 0:20:44.679
<v Speaker 1>of Intelligence EAD, Information and Technology Branch, Finance and Facilities Division,

0:20:44.720 --> 0:20:49.199
<v Speaker 1>Human Resources Division, and then everything else is withheld for

0:20:49.840 --> 0:20:56.480
<v Speaker 1>secret investigative techniques that if released would harm some future investigations.

0:20:56.480 --> 0:20:59.280
<v Speaker 2>So these are all the divisions that were involved in

0:20:59.320 --> 0:21:01.159
<v Speaker 2>the review of the STEAM files. And how do we

0:21:01.200 --> 0:21:07.520
<v Speaker 2>know that because the government released an index of what

0:21:07.640 --> 0:21:11.479
<v Speaker 2>I requested and the FBI document types is how they

0:21:11.560 --> 0:21:16.880
<v Speaker 2>refer to it. And this is a resource planning office.

0:21:16.880 --> 0:21:21.400
<v Speaker 2>That's an office within the FBI report that documents the

0:21:21.440 --> 0:21:26.720
<v Speaker 2>premium pay hours and premium pay is overtime, nighttime, differential hours,

0:21:27.000 --> 0:21:29.240
<v Speaker 2>but more or less, you could think of it as overtime,

0:21:29.560 --> 0:21:35.440
<v Speaker 2>and it's the number of hours they recorded on this project, right,

0:21:35.480 --> 0:21:38.879
<v Speaker 2>That's how they refer to it. The Epstein files. They

0:21:38.920 --> 0:21:43.400
<v Speaker 2>refer to as as a special redaction project. And it's

0:21:43.520 --> 0:21:46.440
<v Speaker 2>during the period of March seventeen through March twenty second,

0:21:46.520 --> 0:21:48.920
<v Speaker 2>so five or six days, right.

0:21:48.760 --> 0:21:52.240
<v Speaker 1>So they're withholding from you the total amount of pay

0:21:52.560 --> 0:21:56.200
<v Speaker 1>across each of those, but they are giving you the

0:21:56.240 --> 0:22:00.480
<v Speaker 1>grand total of employees worked premium pay hours total in

0:22:00.520 --> 0:22:03.800
<v Speaker 1>premium expenses. So they just did not want to give

0:22:03.840 --> 0:22:06.280
<v Speaker 1>you the breakdown. I guess on the theory that somehow

0:22:06.280 --> 0:22:08.960
<v Speaker 1>you could interfere with an investigation if they knew the

0:22:09.000 --> 0:22:10.800
<v Speaker 1>specifics of how they staffed.

0:22:10.400 --> 0:22:12.880
<v Speaker 2>This up, but you at least know the totals. Yeah,

0:22:12.880 --> 0:22:16.920
<v Speaker 2>and those totals are kind of stunning. There were nine

0:22:17.000 --> 0:22:23.480
<v Speaker 2>hundred and thirty four employees that were involved in the

0:22:23.680 --> 0:22:28.600
<v Speaker 2>processing and review of the Epstein files, fourteen thousand and

0:22:28.680 --> 0:22:34.400
<v Speaker 2>two hundred and seventy eight premium pay hours worked for

0:22:34.560 --> 0:22:39.160
<v Speaker 2>a total of eight hundred and fifty one thousand, three

0:22:39.240 --> 0:22:43.600
<v Speaker 2>hundred and forty four dollars that the FBI spent on

0:22:43.840 --> 0:22:48.160
<v Speaker 2>premium pay during the March seventeenth and March twenty second

0:22:48.440 --> 0:22:50.640
<v Speaker 2>review of these files. I mean, that's a lot of money.

0:22:50.680 --> 0:22:52.159
<v Speaker 2>That seems like a ton of money to me for

0:22:52.200 --> 0:22:54.640
<v Speaker 2>the FBI to spend all this. I mean it wasn't

0:22:54.640 --> 0:22:58.359
<v Speaker 2>a national emergency. Well, it depends who you ask, Yeah, true.

0:22:58.440 --> 0:23:01.080
<v Speaker 1>I mean I think there's a sizeable number of people,

0:23:01.119 --> 0:23:05.960
<v Speaker 1>and I think they probably are skewing towards Trump supporters,

0:23:06.000 --> 0:23:09.400
<v Speaker 1>for whom like this is like right, So I'm looking

0:23:09.400 --> 0:23:11.679
<v Speaker 1>at these numbers. I'm seeing eight hundred and fifty thousand,

0:23:11.680 --> 0:23:14.720
<v Speaker 1>and that's just the overtime. So you know, it's possible

0:23:14.800 --> 0:23:19.080
<v Speaker 1>that the overtime might only be like maybe half of

0:23:19.119 --> 0:23:21.560
<v Speaker 1>the total cost, So you could easily be looking at

0:23:21.600 --> 0:23:27.200
<v Speaker 1>like a couple million dollars total. The people are just working,

0:23:27.359 --> 0:23:31.760
<v Speaker 1>which means they're not in the field investigating crimes. They're

0:23:31.760 --> 0:23:35.080
<v Speaker 1>not in the office processing Jason's other Foyer requests. Like

0:23:35.160 --> 0:23:38.080
<v Speaker 1>it's sort of they drop everything. This is what they're doing,

0:23:38.119 --> 0:23:40.919
<v Speaker 1>and all this work gets done and then Pam Bondi

0:23:41.000 --> 0:23:43.879
<v Speaker 1>says there's nothing to see here, so nothing more is

0:23:43.880 --> 0:23:46.160
<v Speaker 1>going to get released, right, So it sounds like by

0:23:46.200 --> 0:23:50.160
<v Speaker 1>May second they've pretty much wrapped up. And then in

0:23:50.280 --> 0:23:54.960
<v Speaker 1>May DOJ tells Trump that his name appears in the documents.

0:23:55.240 --> 0:23:59.879
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's the timing of it. And shortly thereafter, you know,

0:24:00.080 --> 0:24:06.000
<v Speaker 2>we have this unsigned memo saying that they collected three

0:24:06.080 --> 0:24:12.440
<v Speaker 2>hundred gigabytes of data, which is video, photographs, actual documents,

0:24:12.960 --> 0:24:16.840
<v Speaker 2>and none of that, not a single document from that

0:24:17.040 --> 0:24:18.600
<v Speaker 2>trove can be released.

0:24:19.000 --> 0:24:22.040
<v Speaker 1>All right, Well, the clock is ticking on the thirty

0:24:22.119 --> 0:24:26.280
<v Speaker 1>day Epstein Transparency Act deadline. So I guess that work

0:24:26.560 --> 0:24:30.440
<v Speaker 1>wasn't a waste because it's gonna probably come in pretty handy,

0:24:30.560 --> 0:24:32.680
<v Speaker 1>pretty quickly. It's a good thing that they already did

0:24:32.720 --> 0:24:35.960
<v Speaker 1>all this back in the summer. Hopefully we're gonna start

0:24:36.200 --> 0:24:37.360
<v Speaker 1>seeing some more stuff.

0:24:41.400 --> 0:24:45.199
<v Speaker 2>I want to segue into what may be in the

0:24:45.240 --> 0:24:51.080
<v Speaker 2>Epstein files. So earlier this year, I wrote about the

0:24:51.680 --> 0:24:56.159
<v Speaker 2>under the Radar Freedom of Information Act lawsuit that was

0:24:56.240 --> 0:25:00.399
<v Speaker 2>filed back in I think it was twenty seventeen. It's

0:25:00.520 --> 0:25:06.480
<v Speaker 2>nearly nine year old lawsuit that an attorney named Dan

0:25:06.600 --> 0:25:11.000
<v Speaker 2>Novak filed on behalf of a reporter for what was

0:25:11.080 --> 0:25:14.800
<v Speaker 2>Radar magazine at the time this foil lawsuit that he filed.

0:25:14.880 --> 0:25:17.320
<v Speaker 2>They were trying to get at that time all of

0:25:17.359 --> 0:25:22.400
<v Speaker 2>the FBI's Epstein files. And in this lawsuit that had

0:25:22.400 --> 0:25:25.159
<v Speaker 2>been going on now for nearly nine years, the FBI

0:25:25.280 --> 0:25:30.199
<v Speaker 2>released about twelve hundred pages of documents. And these are

0:25:30.240 --> 0:25:32.400
<v Speaker 2>the twelve hundred pages more or less that have been

0:25:32.560 --> 0:25:36.080
<v Speaker 2>screenshotted and shared on social media. And is this the

0:25:36.119 --> 0:25:41.040
<v Speaker 2>same stuff that was in the famous binders? Yeah, exactly

0:25:41.040 --> 0:25:43.080
<v Speaker 2>where people who've been following this are like, what is

0:25:43.119 --> 0:25:46.800
<v Speaker 2>this trash? We've already seen this, right, that's exactly right.

0:25:47.160 --> 0:25:50.119
<v Speaker 2>So here's what happened. I dig into this case and

0:25:50.200 --> 0:25:53.480
<v Speaker 2>the FBI and the Justice Department essentially withheld the vast

0:25:53.480 --> 0:25:57.800
<v Speaker 2>majority of records, at least ten thousand plus pages, because

0:25:57.800 --> 0:26:01.280
<v Speaker 2>of an ongoing investigation. I should go back and say

0:26:01.359 --> 0:26:04.200
<v Speaker 2>they denied the request before they moved to a lawsuit.

0:26:04.520 --> 0:26:06.240
<v Speaker 2>They said to the reporter that you need to have

0:26:06.280 --> 0:26:08.520
<v Speaker 2>a privacy waiver. You need to get Epstein to sign

0:26:08.520 --> 0:26:13.560
<v Speaker 2>a privacy waiver before returning over right, And he's.

0:26:13.440 --> 0:26:15.720
<v Speaker 1>Still alive then in twenty seven, Yeah.

0:26:15.600 --> 0:26:18.360
<v Speaker 2>He's still alive. So they're going down the road of

0:26:18.600 --> 0:26:22.760
<v Speaker 2>privacy waiver and a privacy excemption. They sue, right, and

0:26:23.119 --> 0:26:25.040
<v Speaker 2>so you know how it is. I mean, we both

0:26:25.080 --> 0:26:27.080
<v Speaker 2>know how it is. This is dragging out for a while,

0:26:27.160 --> 0:26:29.880
<v Speaker 2>but this is really long. This is really it's really long.

0:26:29.960 --> 0:26:33.000
<v Speaker 2>The next thing, you know, what happens is fast forwarding here.

0:26:33.000 --> 0:26:37.200
<v Speaker 2>But Epstein gets arrested and so now everything is being

0:26:37.200 --> 0:26:40.879
<v Speaker 2>withheld under B seven eight and ongoing law enforced. Right,

0:26:41.320 --> 0:26:44.640
<v Speaker 2>So they're not getting anything. They're still arguing, going back

0:26:44.680 --> 0:26:48.440
<v Speaker 2>and forth. So these folks just continuously hit roadblocks and

0:26:48.520 --> 0:26:53.440
<v Speaker 2>roadblocks and roadblocks and they're just unable to pry anything loose.

0:26:53.480 --> 0:26:57.200
<v Speaker 2>But they're fighting. They're continuing to fight, right. I respect that.

0:26:57.440 --> 0:26:59.760
<v Speaker 1>It's nice to hear you not be med at other

0:26:59.800 --> 0:27:02.200
<v Speaker 1>PEO people making Foyer requests and filing lawsuits.

0:27:02.359 --> 0:27:05.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean, I like when other people file Foy

0:27:05.680 --> 0:27:07.879
<v Speaker 2>requests and lawsuits, as long as it's not for the

0:27:07.880 --> 0:27:10.080
<v Speaker 2>same records. I want fair. So I go into the

0:27:10.119 --> 0:27:13.000
<v Speaker 2>docket of this Foyle lawsuit that Radar filed trying to

0:27:13.000 --> 0:27:16.320
<v Speaker 2>make these Epstein documents public, and on the docket is

0:27:16.320 --> 0:27:19.800
<v Speaker 2>what's called a Vaughn index. This specific document is very

0:27:19.840 --> 0:27:22.919
<v Speaker 2>important as far as the Epstein files are concerned. But

0:27:23.000 --> 0:27:25.800
<v Speaker 2>before we get into that, Matt, can you explain what

0:27:25.880 --> 0:27:29.159
<v Speaker 2>a Vaughn index is and the old Foyle lawsuit that

0:27:29.240 --> 0:27:30.040
<v Speaker 2>gave rise to it.

0:27:30.480 --> 0:27:33.560
<v Speaker 1>Yes, Jason, it comes from a case called Vaughn versus Rosen,

0:27:33.640 --> 0:27:36.040
<v Speaker 1>and I think kind of like the nineteen seventies, and

0:27:36.080 --> 0:27:39.000
<v Speaker 1>what used to happen is agencies would withhold a bunch

0:27:39.040 --> 0:27:41.000
<v Speaker 1>of stuff and then they would just dump all the

0:27:41.040 --> 0:27:43.199
<v Speaker 1>documents on the court in the lawsuit and be like,

0:27:43.240 --> 0:27:45.760
<v Speaker 1>here you go, court, you tell us it's called in

0:27:45.880 --> 0:27:49.000
<v Speaker 1>camera review, like where the court in chambers, not in

0:27:49.040 --> 0:27:51.879
<v Speaker 1>public reviews these documents. So agencies were just kind of

0:27:51.880 --> 0:27:54.720
<v Speaker 1>like dumping all this stuff, and eventually the courts you're like, yeah,

0:27:54.920 --> 0:27:57.160
<v Speaker 1>we're not cool with that. You've got to make an

0:27:57.200 --> 0:28:00.840
<v Speaker 1>index of what all these documents are, just describe them,

0:28:00.920 --> 0:28:04.439
<v Speaker 1>at least in some level of generality, and identify the

0:28:04.480 --> 0:28:07.360
<v Speaker 1>specific exemptions that you're claiming for each one of those.

0:28:07.400 --> 0:28:10.480
<v Speaker 1>So that has become known as a Vaughn index. So

0:28:10.640 --> 0:28:12.719
<v Speaker 1>it's what it sounds like. It's a listing of all

0:28:12.760 --> 0:28:15.800
<v Speaker 1>the documents. And sometimes the Vaughn index can have a

0:28:15.880 --> 0:28:18.160
<v Speaker 1>whole lot of interesting information even if you can't get

0:28:18.160 --> 0:28:19.400
<v Speaker 1>the documents right.

0:28:19.520 --> 0:28:27.359
<v Speaker 2>And we've received many Vaughan indices in our l lawsuits. Yeah, routinely. Yeah,

0:28:27.560 --> 0:28:30.640
<v Speaker 2>and they're extremely to me, it's extremely valuable just to

0:28:30.680 --> 0:28:33.240
<v Speaker 2>even have a general overview of what the documents are

0:28:33.320 --> 0:28:34.200
<v Speaker 2>that they're worth holding.

0:28:34.440 --> 0:28:37.080
<v Speaker 1>So I was talking to who and when they're talking, like,

0:28:37.080 --> 0:28:38.840
<v Speaker 1>even if you don't know what they're saying, it can

0:28:38.840 --> 0:28:42.200
<v Speaker 1>be really interesting like oh, this person was involved or huh,

0:28:42.240 --> 0:28:45.320
<v Speaker 1>that timing is really interesting as to when things were happening.

0:28:45.320 --> 0:28:47.200
<v Speaker 1>And you can usually get those kinds of details.

0:28:47.560 --> 0:28:49.600
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and I feel like their news were then you

0:28:49.600 --> 0:28:51.360
<v Speaker 2>could write a story out of it. You have written

0:28:51.400 --> 0:28:53.680
<v Speaker 2>stories out of it. Oh yeah, I thought this one

0:28:53.760 --> 0:28:56.600
<v Speaker 2>was really important. And it doesn't seem like anyone you know,

0:28:56.640 --> 0:29:00.000
<v Speaker 2>even knew it was out there. It had some pretty

0:29:00.040 --> 0:29:03.600
<v Speaker 2>i'm good detail of what the documents are that the

0:29:03.680 --> 0:29:07.400
<v Speaker 2>FBI had as it relates to Jeffrey Epstein, And obviously

0:29:07.440 --> 0:29:09.280
<v Speaker 2>it's a sliver, but what would be in the Epstein

0:29:09.320 --> 0:29:13.160
<v Speaker 2>files that are now supposed to be released. And the

0:29:13.200 --> 0:29:19.400
<v Speaker 2>index says that the FBI processed but withheld information it

0:29:19.400 --> 0:29:25.000
<v Speaker 2>obtained from confidential sources, letters addressed to then US Attorney

0:29:25.240 --> 0:29:28.360
<v Speaker 2>for the Southern District to Florida, alex Acosta. He was

0:29:28.400 --> 0:29:32.120
<v Speaker 2>the one that ultimately authorized that non prosecution agreement with

0:29:32.200 --> 0:29:36.880
<v Speaker 2>Jeffrey Epstein. Subpoenas to MySpace, remember my space? Oh yeah,

0:29:37.040 --> 0:29:41.200
<v Speaker 2>that's specifically in this Vaughn index. The handwritten notes of

0:29:41.320 --> 0:29:45.920
<v Speaker 2>FBI agents, photographs, grand jury subpoenas is all listed out

0:29:45.960 --> 0:29:51.080
<v Speaker 2>in the index. Yeah, and bank records communications with foreign

0:29:51.280 --> 0:29:56.680
<v Speaker 2>government agencies. I thought that was really really interesting. Of course,

0:29:56.760 --> 0:29:59.440
<v Speaker 2>there are three O two's tell everyone of FBI three

0:29:59.480 --> 0:29:59.920
<v Speaker 2>O two.

0:29:59.840 --> 0:30:02.240
<v Speaker 1>Is FBI three H two is a summary of an

0:30:02.800 --> 0:30:04.280
<v Speaker 1>FBI interview with someone.

0:30:04.560 --> 0:30:07.840
<v Speaker 2>So in this Vaughn index, so I counted, right, because

0:30:07.840 --> 0:30:11.160
<v Speaker 2>it describes the three H twos here. And mind you,

0:30:11.920 --> 0:30:17.680
<v Speaker 2>this index relates to the investigation that the Justice Department

0:30:17.720 --> 0:30:21.000
<v Speaker 2>and FBI took on between two thousand and six, and

0:30:21.160 --> 0:30:22.880
<v Speaker 2>you know when fsc and pleaded guilty in two thousand

0:30:22.920 --> 0:30:25.840
<v Speaker 2>and eight. So I counted, and it reveals that the

0:30:25.880 --> 0:30:29.040
<v Speaker 2>FBI conducted at lease according to this Vond index, fifty

0:30:29.080 --> 0:30:34.920
<v Speaker 2>five interviews with witnesses, victims, potential investigative targets, and importantly,

0:30:35.200 --> 0:30:38.480
<v Speaker 2>bank records so you know, I'm hoping we get a

0:30:38.520 --> 0:30:41.960
<v Speaker 2>chance to see those. But here's what I like really

0:30:42.080 --> 0:30:45.080
<v Speaker 2>zeroed in on is that it shows that some of

0:30:45.120 --> 0:30:52.120
<v Speaker 2>the documents that were processed and withheld from Radar Magazine

0:30:52.320 --> 0:30:57.280
<v Speaker 2>are from twenty eleven and include dozens of photographs and agents,

0:30:57.680 --> 0:31:02.360
<v Speaker 2>interview summaries of third parties, and documents provided to the

0:31:02.440 --> 0:31:04.840
<v Speaker 2>FBI by confidential sources.

0:31:05.320 --> 0:31:09.560
<v Speaker 1>That's twenty eleven, twenty eleven, you get charged in twenty nineteen.

0:31:10.040 --> 0:31:12.800
<v Speaker 2>No, so we're only talking about the first investigation right

0:31:12.840 --> 0:31:14.760
<v Speaker 2>two thousand and six through two thousand and eight. But

0:31:15.120 --> 0:31:18.120
<v Speaker 2>it looks like the FBI never really closed it is

0:31:18.120 --> 0:31:21.920
<v Speaker 2>that it remained active because there's documents from twenty eleven.

0:31:22.280 --> 0:31:24.400
<v Speaker 2>So I just wanted to get your take on this,

0:31:24.520 --> 0:31:27.040
<v Speaker 2>because we've dealt with the FBI a lot. Do you

0:31:27.080 --> 0:31:30.000
<v Speaker 2>think that people may have just been coming in and

0:31:30.280 --> 0:31:33.760
<v Speaker 2>just collecting evidence and submitting it to the investigative file

0:31:34.200 --> 0:31:37.720
<v Speaker 2>or could this be kind of evidence that the FBI

0:31:37.840 --> 0:31:41.640
<v Speaker 2>still had an active investigation in twenty eleven, three years

0:31:41.640 --> 0:31:44.680
<v Speaker 2>after Epstein had pled guilty and at that point was

0:31:44.720 --> 0:31:45.760
<v Speaker 2>already out of jail.

0:31:46.080 --> 0:31:48.400
<v Speaker 1>I mean, that's pretty hard to tell. I mean wouldn't

0:31:48.440 --> 0:31:51.840
<v Speaker 1>surprise me if victims and others continued to come to

0:31:51.960 --> 0:31:57.000
<v Speaker 1>the FBI for good reason dissatisfied with the minimal punishment

0:31:57.320 --> 0:32:00.240
<v Speaker 1>that he had gotten to that point. In whether the

0:32:00.320 --> 0:32:03.520
<v Speaker 1>FBI did anything with that, we really don't know unless

0:32:03.520 --> 0:32:06.640
<v Speaker 1>the Vaughan Index shows like more activity at the time.

0:32:06.680 --> 0:32:08.400
<v Speaker 1>But if all you have is like a listing of

0:32:08.400 --> 0:32:10.440
<v Speaker 1>a bunch of three h twos of witness interviews, that

0:32:10.880 --> 0:32:14.000
<v Speaker 1>it's hard to really say if they were actively investigating

0:32:14.080 --> 0:32:16.200
<v Speaker 1>or just sort of passively receiving information.

0:32:16.360 --> 0:32:19.640
<v Speaker 2>Right. Yeah, And based on my reporting, the FBI doesn't

0:32:19.680 --> 0:32:22.960
<v Speaker 2>typically close investigations. They're sort of keeping it open. That's

0:32:23.000 --> 0:32:24.600
<v Speaker 2>just my experience, right.

0:32:24.480 --> 0:32:28.080
<v Speaker 1>For in these circumstances, that would make perfect sense.

0:32:28.160 --> 0:32:30.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and I didn't see anything in the Vaughn Index

0:32:30.160 --> 0:32:32.959
<v Speaker 2>that indicated there was like a case closing memorandum, an

0:32:33.000 --> 0:32:36.920
<v Speaker 2>actual document there. So I dug into this over the summer.

0:32:37.200 --> 0:32:41.520
<v Speaker 2>This was during that time where everyone was just kind

0:32:41.560 --> 0:32:46.800
<v Speaker 2>of clamoring these Epstein files because this was immediately after

0:32:47.200 --> 0:32:50.080
<v Speaker 2>the Justice Department FBI said we're not going to release anything.

0:32:50.640 --> 0:32:54.360
<v Speaker 2>So now Radar Magazine is eight years into its lawsuit

0:32:54.400 --> 0:32:56.960
<v Speaker 2>to get the Epstein records. At this point, they know

0:32:57.160 --> 0:33:00.040
<v Speaker 2>the FBI has reviewed the records, and the FBI and

0:33:00.120 --> 0:33:02.960
<v Speaker 2>the DOJ say they're not going to release more records.

0:33:03.200 --> 0:33:06.960
<v Speaker 2>So the Radar lawsuit has some new urgency. It looks

0:33:07.000 --> 0:33:09.480
<v Speaker 2>like they have a pretty clear path to say you

0:33:09.680 --> 0:33:14.760
<v Speaker 2>have to release the records. But then Julaine Maxwell appeals

0:33:14.760 --> 0:33:18.080
<v Speaker 2>her case Dlayne Maxwell. We now see that her attorney

0:33:18.120 --> 0:33:22.320
<v Speaker 2>renewing his requests for the Supreme Court to overturn her conviction.

0:33:22.920 --> 0:33:26.000
<v Speaker 2>So there's Radar Magazine again with like ah Man. This

0:33:26.120 --> 0:33:29.800
<v Speaker 2>is still an ongoing law enforcement proceeding, so they still

0:33:29.840 --> 0:33:33.160
<v Speaker 2>can't get anything. And now that the Supreme Court has

0:33:33.200 --> 0:33:37.400
<v Speaker 2>rejected Maxwell's petition, Dan Novak and Radar Magazine has now

0:33:37.560 --> 0:33:40.680
<v Speaker 2>appealed to the Second Circuit and so there's an oral

0:33:40.880 --> 0:33:45.160
<v Speaker 2>argument set for January twenty eighth. So I still think, Matt,

0:33:45.200 --> 0:33:47.160
<v Speaker 2>I just want to see what you think this Foyer

0:33:47.280 --> 0:33:50.360
<v Speaker 2>case is the best actually the best chance of getting

0:33:50.440 --> 0:33:56.400
<v Speaker 2>anything from the Epstein Files versus Congress's Epstein Files Transparency Act. Yeah.

0:33:56.480 --> 0:33:58.720
<v Speaker 2>I think for a couple reasons.

0:33:58.800 --> 0:34:01.280
<v Speaker 1>I mean, first, I think that the Vaughn Index is

0:34:01.360 --> 0:34:04.360
<v Speaker 1>going to be a check on whatever gets released, like

0:34:04.400 --> 0:34:06.720
<v Speaker 1>if you see that there's things on the Vaughn Index

0:34:06.800 --> 0:34:10.000
<v Speaker 1>that don't get released, then there's some splaining to do. Right,

0:34:10.560 --> 0:34:13.919
<v Speaker 1>but the lawsuit also has teeth. The Epstein Act has

0:34:13.920 --> 0:34:17.640
<v Speaker 1>no teeth. If DOJ decides to violate it, there's no

0:34:17.719 --> 0:34:20.600
<v Speaker 1>private cause of action. You and I can't file a

0:34:20.680 --> 0:34:24.160
<v Speaker 1>lawsuit over that. You need to have a Foyer case.

0:34:24.200 --> 0:34:28.080
<v Speaker 1>And so so that case could end up being the

0:34:28.280 --> 0:34:33.640
<v Speaker 1>legal vehicle by which the Epstein Act release actually gets challenged.

0:34:33.920 --> 0:34:35.600
<v Speaker 1>I mean, there's so many twists and turns to this,

0:34:35.719 --> 0:34:38.000
<v Speaker 1>and like people get charged, and people die, and it

0:34:38.239 --> 0:34:41.239
<v Speaker 1>impacts what can be with helld or not, and it's

0:34:41.320 --> 0:34:43.400
<v Speaker 1>up and down on appeal and all this stuff going on.

0:34:43.560 --> 0:34:46.000
<v Speaker 1>And so that's got to be frustrating to go after

0:34:46.040 --> 0:34:50.640
<v Speaker 1>that long. But now it's it's it almost turns out

0:34:50.680 --> 0:34:53.600
<v Speaker 1>it does turn out that, like it's great, rightly there

0:34:53.680 --> 0:34:56.399
<v Speaker 1>is a live, active Foya case right now that can

0:34:56.480 --> 0:35:00.440
<v Speaker 1>be the vehicle by which if the DOJ is trying

0:35:00.440 --> 0:35:02.120
<v Speaker 1>to get away with withholding things.

0:35:02.239 --> 0:35:04.719
<v Speaker 2>That's how they can be held accountable for that.

0:35:04.840 --> 0:35:07.360
<v Speaker 1>In how we can courts can guarantee in the public

0:35:07.360 --> 0:35:10.440
<v Speaker 1>can guarantee that they're actually releasing everything that they're supposed

0:35:10.440 --> 0:35:12.799
<v Speaker 1>to release because the track record ain't that great so far.

0:35:13.320 --> 0:35:15.239
<v Speaker 2>That's kind of how I felt as well. It's like,

0:35:15.320 --> 0:35:19.440
<v Speaker 2>this is really the best course of action for the

0:35:19.480 --> 0:35:22.279
<v Speaker 2>public to kind of see what's going on. It will

0:35:22.320 --> 0:35:27.919
<v Speaker 2>be interesting if the government argues that, well, Donald Trump

0:35:28.040 --> 0:35:32.919
<v Speaker 2>is now called for an investigation into Democrats, so we're

0:35:32.960 --> 0:35:35.759
<v Speaker 2>going to keep withholding is because of an ongoing investigation.

0:35:36.080 --> 0:35:39.080
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and that's you know, I mean, it depends on

0:35:39.680 --> 0:35:43.280
<v Speaker 1>how bold they are on trying to make those with holding.

0:35:43.520 --> 0:35:46.520
<v Speaker 1>And I think they're given the memo from July. I

0:35:46.760 --> 0:35:49.000
<v Speaker 1>was representing you right now in a case on this,

0:35:49.200 --> 0:35:51.919
<v Speaker 1>and they said, oh, well, there's these investigations, I think

0:35:51.960 --> 0:35:55.000
<v Speaker 1>you can make dogument that's a sham. They already said

0:35:55.040 --> 0:35:57.799
<v Speaker 1>that there isn't any predicate to investigate anybody else.

0:35:58.080 --> 0:36:00.799
<v Speaker 2>That's right, and doj and FBI, I said in their

0:36:00.880 --> 0:36:05.360
<v Speaker 2>joint statement from July quote, there was also no credible

0:36:05.520 --> 0:36:10.719
<v Speaker 2>evidence found that Epstein blackmailed prominent individuals as part of

0:36:10.719 --> 0:36:14.680
<v Speaker 2>his actions. We did not uncover evidence that could predicate

0:36:14.800 --> 0:36:19.480
<v Speaker 2>an investigation against uncharged third party.

0:36:19.719 --> 0:36:21.920
<v Speaker 1>So the fact that they're now claiming they're going to

0:36:21.960 --> 0:36:24.640
<v Speaker 1>do investigation it's not a real investigation, so it doesn't

0:36:24.640 --> 0:36:27.360
<v Speaker 1>count for foya purposes. That's how I would argue that,

0:36:27.480 --> 0:36:30.280
<v Speaker 1>I don't know some you know, I think there's a fair.

0:36:30.160 --> 0:36:33.759
<v Speaker 2>Chance of succeeding on that, but no guarantees. I mean,

0:36:33.800 --> 0:36:37.040
<v Speaker 2>the timing couldn't be better for Radar magazine, right, they

0:36:37.440 --> 0:36:41.440
<v Speaker 2>file this back in twenty seventeen, so they're coming up

0:36:41.480 --> 0:36:45.200
<v Speaker 2>on nine years. That's a really long time. But man,

0:36:45.280 --> 0:36:49.040
<v Speaker 2>the fact that they're still fighting at this very moment,

0:36:49.400 --> 0:36:53.000
<v Speaker 2>where the Epstein files have become the biggest political story

0:36:53.000 --> 0:36:57.080
<v Speaker 2>of the year, that's wild. So, as I mentioned, there's

0:36:57.120 --> 0:37:00.200
<v Speaker 2>a hearing in the Second Circuit, an oral argument that's

0:37:00.239 --> 0:37:03.360
<v Speaker 2>scheduled for January twenty eighth. And let me just let me,

0:37:03.600 --> 0:37:04.280
<v Speaker 2>let me just explain.

0:37:04.360 --> 0:37:08.600
<v Speaker 1>So that's the Court of Appeals that covers the trial

0:37:08.680 --> 0:37:13.120
<v Speaker 1>courts that are in New York and some other adjacent states.

0:37:13.160 --> 0:37:16.360
<v Speaker 1>The country is divided into a series of different regional

0:37:16.400 --> 0:37:18.440
<v Speaker 1>courts of appeals, so it's above the trial court and

0:37:18.440 --> 0:37:19.919
<v Speaker 1>it's before the Supreme Court.

0:37:20.040 --> 0:37:20.920
<v Speaker 2>An oral argument.

0:37:21.040 --> 0:37:24.320
<v Speaker 1>Explain it, man, oral argument is the parties have filed

0:37:24.320 --> 0:37:27.120
<v Speaker 1>their briefs and then they come in and they answer

0:37:27.200 --> 0:37:29.920
<v Speaker 1>the judges questions and they make their arguments and those

0:37:30.000 --> 0:37:32.120
<v Speaker 1>are open to the public. I got a feeling that

0:37:32.160 --> 0:37:35.240
<v Speaker 1>it's going to be a packed court room with overflow rooms.

0:37:35.360 --> 0:37:38.919
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and it's interesting because it's coming, you know, it's

0:37:38.920 --> 0:37:43.120
<v Speaker 2>happening right after kind of the deadline for when the

0:37:43.200 --> 0:37:45.799
<v Speaker 2>Justice Department is supposed to turn over everything in the

0:37:45.840 --> 0:37:48.439
<v Speaker 2>Epstein files. So I just want to ask you this question, Matt.

0:37:48.680 --> 0:37:53.360
<v Speaker 2>So let's say the Justice Department does turn over everything

0:37:53.400 --> 0:37:57.720
<v Speaker 2>in the Epstein files to Congress, as they are required

0:37:57.760 --> 0:38:01.759
<v Speaker 2>to do under the law. Would those same records be

0:38:01.920 --> 0:38:05.240
<v Speaker 2>responsive to this FOIL lawsuit.

0:38:05.760 --> 0:38:09.040
<v Speaker 1>Well, the scope of that request was, like all records

0:38:09.040 --> 0:38:12.520
<v Speaker 1>from the FBI's investigation, right, all documents relating to the

0:38:12.560 --> 0:38:16.479
<v Speaker 1>FBI's investigation and prosecution of Jeffrey Epstein. Now they made

0:38:16.480 --> 0:38:20.680
<v Speaker 1>their request in twenty seventeen. Yeah, there could be a

0:38:20.760 --> 0:38:25.480
<v Speaker 1>dispute about whether documents after that date get included or not.

0:38:25.680 --> 0:38:27.880
<v Speaker 1>I mean, it certainly would be cut off. At whatever

0:38:27.920 --> 0:38:32.640
<v Speaker 1>point the FBI searched then that would typically be the cutoff.

0:38:32.960 --> 0:38:35.040
<v Speaker 1>Sometimes it's the date of the request. Sometimes it's whenever

0:38:35.080 --> 0:38:38.760
<v Speaker 1>they do the search. So there could be some later stuff,

0:38:38.840 --> 0:38:41.160
<v Speaker 1>like you know, because he When did he When did

0:38:41.160 --> 0:38:44.320
<v Speaker 1>he die? Twenty nineteen, twenty nineteen. Yeah, so there's a

0:38:44.320 --> 0:38:45.680
<v Speaker 1>couple of years there, two thousand nine, a.

0:38:45.640 --> 0:38:48.000
<v Speaker 2>Little bit of there, maybe a little bit of indulgent. Well,

0:38:48.040 --> 0:38:50.279
<v Speaker 2>I guess we'll see what happens whether or not the

0:38:50.400 --> 0:38:54.440
<v Speaker 2>Justice Department releases the Epstein files to Congress, And I

0:38:54.440 --> 0:38:57.960
<v Speaker 2>guess we'll see what happens in late January in the

0:38:58.040 --> 0:39:05.879
<v Speaker 2>Radar Foil lawsuit for the FBI files. An upstick from

0:39:05.920 --> 0:39:09.680
<v Speaker 2>Bloomberg and No Smiling. This is Disclosure. The show is

0:39:09.719 --> 0:39:13.480
<v Speaker 2>hosted by Matt Topic and me Jason Leopold. It's produced

0:39:13.520 --> 0:39:16.799
<v Speaker 2>by Heather Schroing and Sean Cannon for No Smiling. Our

0:39:16.920 --> 0:39:20.640
<v Speaker 2>editor for Bloomberg is Jeff Grocott. Our executive producers for

0:39:20.719 --> 0:39:24.920
<v Speaker 2>Bloomberg are Sage Bauman and me Jason Leopold, and our

0:39:24.960 --> 0:39:28.920
<v Speaker 2>executive producers for No Smiling are Sean Cannon, Heather Schrowing,

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<v Speaker 2>with additional music by Nick An Epidemic Sound. Sound design

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<v Speaker 2>around the world. We'll see you again next Tuesday. Okay,

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<v Speaker 2>opening the link. Do do Do Do Do Do Do

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<v Speaker 2>Do