WEBVTT - Malcolm Gladwell Doesn't Mind Being Wrong | From Hasan Minhaj Doesn't Know 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:20.876 Pushkin. Hey everyone, I recently went on the podcast to 0:00:20.996 --> 0:00:24.516 one of my very favorite comedians Asan Minaj, and we 0:00:24.556 --> 0:00:27.236 had so much fun together, I thought we'd drop our 0:00:27.276 --> 0:00:31.156 conversation into the revisionist history feed. My only regret is 0:00:31.156 --> 0:00:33.956 that we didn't talk more about basketball, since he's a 0:00:33.956 --> 0:00:36.476 fanatic and I'm kind of a phanatic too. So have 0:00:36.636 --> 0:00:39.916 me back Asan and we can correct the oversight. Here 0:00:39.956 --> 0:00:41.676 you go, enjoy the conversation. 0:00:43.116 --> 0:00:44.756 Last thing, and I don't know if you got your 0:00:44.796 --> 0:00:46.596 pep and your step to do this, but you are 0:00:47.276 --> 0:00:51.156 very famous for giving people blurbs on the back of 0:00:51.196 --> 0:00:54.516 their book. Oh yeah, Now, first things first, what is 0:00:54.556 --> 0:00:56.436 a blurb? Because it sounds like a slur that you 0:00:56.436 --> 0:00:57.716 would hear in Harry Potter. 0:00:58.316 --> 0:01:02.516 You bloody blurb two cents three cents endorsement goes on 0:01:02.556 --> 0:01:05.196 the back of a book which says I read it, 0:01:05.316 --> 0:01:07.196 I liked it. You should read it too. 0:01:07.436 --> 0:01:10.156 Do you mind giving a blurb for this interview? Kim? 0:01:10.236 --> 0:01:11.996 Oh my god, you're the master of blurb. 0:01:12.036 --> 0:01:14.156 I've seen your blurbs on many different books at. 0:01:14.196 --> 0:01:18.676 Niz Hassan got me to cry. I wasn't expecting it. 0:01:19.196 --> 0:01:23.276 I wasn't expecting that to happen. Anyone who can make 0:01:23.316 --> 0:01:27.236 their guests cry deserves a shout out. I would listen 0:01:27.796 --> 0:01:31.036 to Hassan doesn't Know on a regular basis from now on. 0:01:31.156 --> 0:01:33.276 How are you prepared to be dazzled? 0:01:33.396 --> 0:01:34.356 Pare to be dazzled? 0:01:39.956 --> 0:01:44.596 Maybe no other writer epitomizes popular nonfiction like Malcolm Gladwell. 0:01:45.076 --> 0:01:49.356 He literally made nonfiction popular. Millions and millions of people 0:01:49.396 --> 0:01:51.796 have read his books, and that has gotten him in 0:01:51.836 --> 0:01:56.116 trouble with two groups, one snobs who hate popular things, 0:01:56.516 --> 0:01:59.396 and two people impacted by some of the ideas that 0:01:59.436 --> 0:02:02.396 Malcolm Gladwell helped make popular. So I sat down with 0:02:02.436 --> 0:02:05.436 Malcolm to talk about the incredible new season of his podcast, 0:02:05.476 --> 0:02:08.636 Provisionist History and the profound impact that it had on him. 0:02:09.276 --> 0:02:12.476 We shook me why his books have had such a 0:02:12.516 --> 0:02:13.276 wide appeal. 0:02:13.596 --> 0:02:15.396 What my books do is allow you to play with 0:02:15.436 --> 0:02:16.676 the world of ideas. 0:02:16.396 --> 0:02:19.156 And we get into his hot take on working from home. 0:02:19.356 --> 0:02:20.516 I'll never live that one down. 0:02:20.596 --> 0:02:23.196 I also asked him about that Blink cameo and White lotus. 0:02:24.036 --> 0:02:26.076 Was it a compliment or a snake diss? I mean, 0:02:26.116 --> 0:02:28.516 Mike White, what are you doing here? Are you coming from? 0:02:28.516 --> 0:02:28.836 My boy? 0:02:28.876 --> 0:02:32.516 Malcolm, and more importantly, are you casting me in season 0:02:32.636 --> 0:02:40.236 four or what? Because I am available? Do you prefer 0:02:40.276 --> 0:02:42.076 writing books or do you prefer podcasting? 0:02:42.556 --> 0:02:45.596 Well? I like them both because it's so different. It's 0:02:45.676 --> 0:02:50.076 like saying, do you prefer chicken to shrimp? I mean, 0:02:50.676 --> 0:02:53.276 I like them both, but there are hard to compare 0:02:53.836 --> 0:02:56.956 because there's things you want to do with podcasting that 0:02:57.036 --> 0:02:59.676 you can't do with writing, and vice versa. The thing 0:03:00.436 --> 0:03:05.116 I got tired of in writing books, I'm tired of 0:03:05.156 --> 0:03:07.036 it was too strong a word, but I wanted to 0:03:07.036 --> 0:03:10.156 get away from was I didn't like the insistence of 0:03:10.196 --> 0:03:14.156 my own voice. So the thing that's lovely about podcasting 0:03:14.276 --> 0:03:17.396 is or the kind of narrative audio storytelling that I do, 0:03:18.116 --> 0:03:20.636 is that I get to recede and what I'm doing 0:03:20.676 --> 0:03:24.076 is collecting other people's voices. 0:03:24.276 --> 0:03:26.276 I mean, your books have permeated culture in a way 0:03:26.996 --> 0:03:34.036 that is so It's so Hudson News Stand deep Like, 0:03:34.156 --> 0:03:36.276 there is not a year that I have traveled where 0:03:36.316 --> 0:03:38.796 I have not seen a Malcolm Gladwell book at an 0:03:38.876 --> 0:03:40.916 airport in the United States of America. Did you see 0:03:40.916 --> 0:03:44.236 the cameo of Blink You on season one of White Lotus? 0:03:44.316 --> 0:03:46.596 Oh? Yes, how'd you feel about that? 0:03:46.596 --> 0:03:47.316 That's hilarious. 0:03:47.716 --> 0:03:48.996 Shane was reading it. This is a moment. 0:03:49.596 --> 0:03:51.876 I did love that. I love that show. 0:03:52.156 --> 0:03:54.276 How did you feel about the way Mike White described 0:03:54.716 --> 0:03:56.356 this moment? So this is what Mike White said about it. 0:03:56.396 --> 0:03:58.116 Blink just felt like such a Norman book. It seems 0:03:58.116 --> 0:04:00.556 like he's stoking his curiosity, but it hasn't gone very deep. 0:04:00.676 --> 0:04:02.676 Gladwell's the kind of writer that makes you feel smart 0:04:02.836 --> 0:04:05.396 while you're reading it, whether you are or aren't. 0:04:05.636 --> 0:04:07.916 Oh, I love that. That's a very sweet thing to say. 0:04:07.956 --> 0:04:10.436 Don't you think some people think of this as a desk. 0:04:10.916 --> 0:04:11.476 I don't think. 0:04:11.556 --> 0:04:13.836 I see this as a compliment. So he was writing that, like, 0:04:13.876 --> 0:04:17.156 that's why Shane is reading the book in it. But 0:04:17.276 --> 0:04:23.796 I think I'm like, hey, you create egalitarian, accessible stories 0:04:23.796 --> 0:04:24.556 that people can read. 0:04:24.756 --> 0:04:27.676 Yeah, and it's but it's I think if I maybe 0:04:27.716 --> 0:04:31.196 reading too deeply into that. But the way I would 0:04:31.196 --> 0:04:35.116 phrase it is most people, as part of their daily lives, 0:04:35.756 --> 0:04:38.796 don't have a chance to engage in the world of ideas. 0:04:39.036 --> 0:04:45.356 People's lives are full, they have kids, jobs, responsibilities. They're 0:04:45.396 --> 0:04:49.156 not reading the Journal of the American Sociological Society at 0:04:49.236 --> 0:04:52.236 night right, or they're not getting exposed to the latest 0:04:52.276 --> 0:04:54.236 theory about this or that and the other. There's no 0:04:54.356 --> 0:04:58.276 place for it. They don't and so they don't get them. 0:04:58.436 --> 0:05:01.436 They don't get a chance to quote unquote, if feeling 0:05:01.596 --> 0:05:05.636 smart means being able to play in the world of ideas, 0:05:05.956 --> 0:05:08.916 they have limited opportunities for that. What my books do 0:05:08.996 --> 0:05:10.756 is allow you to play with the world of ideas. 0:05:10.916 --> 0:05:13.396 I say, I'll go out and find cool ideas for you, 0:05:13.916 --> 0:05:18.036 arrange them, let you just indulge in them, see whether 0:05:18.076 --> 0:05:20.516 you like them, try them on for size, reject them 0:05:20.556 --> 0:05:23.756 if you want like. And that's the thing. The books 0:05:23.756 --> 0:05:27.556 have been successful because people have a They recognize the 0:05:27.636 --> 0:05:30.236 fact that once you leave college, you don't have easy 0:05:30.316 --> 0:05:30.996 access to right. 0:05:30.996 --> 0:05:34.676 Right yeah, yeah, just hours and hours of kind of free, open, 0:05:34.956 --> 0:05:37.516 guided time to explore big ideas, explore big ideas. 0:05:38.196 --> 0:05:40.396 I have the luxury of doing that for others, and 0:05:40.396 --> 0:05:42.636 that I think is a I think of that as 0:05:42.676 --> 0:05:44.276 a noble calling. 0:05:44.396 --> 0:05:47.036 How do you feel when people put what you do 0:05:47.196 --> 0:05:51.036 on this huge pedestal that you go these Malcolm Gladwell 0:05:51.036 --> 0:05:54.956 books are these seminal books for intellectualism. 0:05:55.356 --> 0:05:56.316 Do you feel like that's too big? 0:05:56.356 --> 0:05:58.076 Of a title because I had this with with my 0:05:58.436 --> 0:06:00.836 Netflix show as well with Patriot Act. People feel like 0:06:00.916 --> 0:06:06.036 these enfotainment shows are the same thing as being deep experts. 0:06:06.036 --> 0:06:08.316 Like if you watch Patriot Act and you see our 0:06:08.356 --> 0:06:12.036 episode about fentanyl, you're not a fentanyl expert. I'm not 0:06:12.076 --> 0:06:14.676 a fentanyl expert. Like I'm literally reading off a prompter 0:06:14.716 --> 0:06:16.036 and I learned about this like a month and a 0:06:16.036 --> 0:06:16.476 half ago. 0:06:16.596 --> 0:06:21.276 Yeah, I mean, I think I do think that's too much, 0:06:22.276 --> 0:06:25.116 But I think what to the extent that what people 0:06:25.156 --> 0:06:27.836 are doing when they say that is expressing their enthusiasm. 0:06:28.276 --> 0:06:32.196 I'm happy because what they're what they're really saying is wow, 0:06:32.276 --> 0:06:34.156 I got to play in this world of ideas and 0:06:34.196 --> 0:06:36.516 it is way more fun than I thought. That's cool, 0:06:36.876 --> 0:06:38.916 That's what they're saying. Yeah, and they don't, and you're 0:06:38.956 --> 0:06:42.356 capturing that a moment in time, because usually what happens 0:06:42.356 --> 0:06:44.316 then is they feel emboldened to go on on their 0:06:44.356 --> 0:06:47.836 own and discover other stuff. And so the moment when 0:06:47.836 --> 0:06:51.396 they think that, you know, Outliers, was the be all 0:06:51.476 --> 0:06:54.076 end all, it passes because they then start to discover 0:06:54.916 --> 0:06:57.836 on their own other ideas that complement their understanding of 0:06:57.876 --> 0:07:00.316 the world and they fall in love with some other thing. 0:07:00.356 --> 0:07:03.556 I'm the gateway drug. I'm not. I'm not the addiction. 0:07:03.956 --> 0:07:06.396 Is is your dream that it gets them on a 0:07:06.436 --> 0:07:10.676 path to being Like I need to access scientific research. 0:07:10.356 --> 0:07:12.676 But I want to be the first thing. I want 0:07:12.716 --> 0:07:14.436 to be the first thing you read, not the last 0:07:14.436 --> 0:07:16.276 thing you read on that subject. 0:07:16.396 --> 0:07:19.036 I think one of your greatest gifts is probably your 0:07:19.076 --> 0:07:24.036 gift and ability to passionately tell a story. I feel 0:07:24.076 --> 0:07:26.916 like you could tell a story literally about anything and 0:07:26.956 --> 0:07:29.916 get me engaged, Like could you do a revisionist history 0:07:29.956 --> 0:07:32.916 about W twos and W nine's. 0:07:34.756 --> 0:07:36.436 Like how would you attack that? 0:07:36.596 --> 0:07:38.636 Like give us a little bit of that Gladwell juice 0:07:38.636 --> 0:07:41.356 of Like how do you take these very mundane topics 0:07:41.436 --> 0:07:42.756 and make them super duper interesting. 0:07:42.876 --> 0:07:44.436 You know, that's a tough one. I have to look 0:07:44.476 --> 0:07:46.356 into it a little bit. I've been doing this a 0:07:46.436 --> 0:07:49.076 version of this right now because I've been working on 0:07:49.116 --> 0:07:52.596 this project about American gun violence, and i want to 0:07:52.636 --> 0:07:55.836 tell a story about American gun violence and not talk 0:07:56.836 --> 0:08:00.916 about guns, not at all. You got to talk about 0:08:00.996 --> 0:08:07.156 kinds of sumptions. I'm interested in exploring all the all 0:08:07.196 --> 0:08:10.396 the peculiarities of the way America and think about gun 0:08:10.556 --> 0:08:13.116 violence that have that aren't the ones we normally think about. 0:08:13.796 --> 0:08:17.356 And so there's one. There's one where I do an 0:08:17.556 --> 0:08:21.236 entire chapter on the Second Amendment, which is all about 0:08:21.436 --> 0:08:25.116 this is the grammar of the Second Amendment and understanding 0:08:25.596 --> 0:08:27.676 in the eighteenth century if you wrote a sentence like that, 0:08:27.876 --> 0:08:32.036 which is it's a sentence that begins with an absolute 0:08:32.036 --> 0:08:35.996 clause and then has the operative clause, and the absolute 0:08:35.996 --> 0:08:39.116 clause is what's called it an initial being clause. Particular 0:08:39.236 --> 0:08:43.356 kind of absolute clause, and initial being clauses loom really 0:08:43.436 --> 0:08:45.556 large in the grammar of the eighteenth century in a 0:08:45.596 --> 0:08:49.076 way they don't now. And so the whole thing is 0:08:49.116 --> 0:08:52.636 all about eighteenth century grammar. And it is like, I 0:08:52.676 --> 0:08:53.956 don't know if I pulled it off because no one 0:08:53.956 --> 0:08:55.396 else has read it. It's a draft, no one else 0:08:55.436 --> 0:08:56.236 has read it. 0:08:55.876 --> 0:08:58.756 But this, essentially, this is like a funk masterflex. Can 0:08:58.796 --> 0:08:59.876 we get a bomb on this? Can we get a 0:08:59.876 --> 0:09:01.596 bomb drop a hot ninety something bomb drop on this? 0:09:01.596 --> 0:09:03.316 This could be the next this could be the exclusive, 0:09:03.516 --> 0:09:05.356 This is your jay Z hot ninety something, this, this 0:09:05.396 --> 0:09:07.636 is me, this is this could be the next book. 0:09:08.236 --> 0:09:10.076 Well, this is a chap during the next book, Well. 0:09:09.916 --> 0:09:19.236 Just drop a bomb on a flex. Go ahead, did 0:09:19.276 --> 0:09:21.116 a bomb? Just drop We're gonna do it in a post. 0:09:21.196 --> 0:09:26.196 Okay, but it's possible. I did not succeed in this, 0:09:26.596 --> 0:09:31.436 But I got so deep into eighteenth century grammar. And 0:09:31.476 --> 0:09:36.076 what's interesting about it is that you realize the whole 0:09:36.076 --> 0:09:38.876 point of going on this incredibly nerdy grammatical path is 0:09:38.876 --> 0:09:41.876 to make you understand that when the Supreme Court passes 0:09:42.076 --> 0:09:45.276 opinions on the Second Amendment, they are making shit up. 0:09:45.636 --> 0:09:47.996 They have no clue what they're talking about, and anyone 0:09:47.996 --> 0:09:50.756 who knows what they're talking about is like, oh my god, 0:09:50.836 --> 0:09:54.156 this is nuts. To pass a ruling about gun rights 0:09:54.196 --> 0:09:57.036 based on our understanding of the Second Amendment requires it 0:09:57.116 --> 0:09:59.516 to interpret the Second Amendment because it's a sentence that 0:09:59.556 --> 0:10:02.916 actually makes no sense. It's a pre modern sentence. It's 0:10:02.956 --> 0:10:05.876 like not a sentence we'd ever write today, right, And 0:10:06.236 --> 0:10:09.276 they presume to interpret the sentence without knowing any thing 0:10:09.316 --> 0:10:12.876 about linguistics, in particular, without learning anything about historical linguistics. 0:10:13.436 --> 0:10:18.316 That's ridiculous. You can't read a sentence from seventeen eighty 0:10:18.916 --> 0:10:22.316 three or whatever it was in as as someone living 0:10:22.356 --> 0:10:25.076 in twenty twenty five and makes sense of it. You've 0:10:25.116 --> 0:10:27.596 got to talk to people who knew what the way 0:10:27.636 --> 0:10:30.236 people phrase things. In seventeen eighty three got it right. 0:10:30.316 --> 0:10:32.356 And they didn't do that. They just thought, oh, I 0:10:32.356 --> 0:10:35.596 can pull out Websters the Dictionary off the shelf and 0:10:35.676 --> 0:10:37.396 just tell you what the words mean. 0:10:37.716 --> 0:10:38.196 This is. 0:10:39.836 --> 0:10:42.676 If you did this for a paper in college, you 0:10:42.676 --> 0:10:43.796 would get a C minus. 0:10:44.236 --> 0:10:46.996 You are very good at coining particular terms that catch 0:10:47.036 --> 0:10:50.356 like wildfire, tipping point for example, obviously your super popular 0:10:50.396 --> 0:10:52.436 book that came out in two thousand, Tipping Point. I 0:10:52.476 --> 0:10:56.396 read it, many people read it. What is it about 0:10:56.476 --> 0:10:59.036 certain terms that make them just catch on like wildfire? 0:10:59.356 --> 0:11:00.236 Like I'll give an example. 0:11:01.276 --> 0:11:01.716 You know the. 0:11:01.756 --> 0:11:09.396 Term bucket list? Okay, that term came from this movie. 0:11:09.676 --> 0:11:12.316 There was a movie called The bucket List with Jack 0:11:12.356 --> 0:11:15.036 Nicholson and more startment with it starts with this. 0:11:15.556 --> 0:11:16.356 It was not used. 0:11:16.436 --> 0:11:19.276 It does not pre date this movie. Yeah, like in 0:11:20.516 --> 0:11:23.516 social lexicon, it's not crazy. But my question is is 0:11:24.276 --> 0:11:28.116 how do you know that something is going to catch 0:11:28.276 --> 0:11:28.636 like that? 0:11:28.996 --> 0:11:33.236 You don't, I mean, how could you know? I mean 0:11:33.276 --> 0:11:36.716 you can, you can. It can sound good. 0:11:36.596 --> 0:11:38.836 To you, but but picking a title is pretty big, 0:11:39.476 --> 0:11:40.476 like picking a title. 0:11:40.516 --> 0:11:40.876 You know this. 0:11:40.956 --> 0:11:44.436 You're sitting with this PDF, you're reviewing it, you're revising it. 0:11:44.436 --> 0:11:45.556 It's like naming an album. 0:11:45.676 --> 0:11:49.116 You go, okay, this is this is the phrase. 0:11:49.236 --> 0:11:51.436 I mean. I have a theory about what a title, 0:11:51.796 --> 0:11:53.996 what the perfect title is, although none of my books 0:11:53.996 --> 0:11:57.516 have ever had the perfect title. The perfect title is 0:11:57.756 --> 0:12:02.916 a oxymoron. So there has to be some tension between 0:12:02.956 --> 0:12:07.036 the two kind of operative words in the title. So 0:12:07.876 --> 0:12:12.436 the famous environmental book for the sixties, Silent Spring, is 0:12:12.476 --> 0:12:16.356 to my mind, to perfect title. Silent and spring are 0:12:16.356 --> 0:12:18.596 in opposition to each other, Right, it's an oxymoron. No 0:12:18.636 --> 0:12:21.556 Spring is silent, and she's giving us she's that with 0:12:21.636 --> 0:12:27.196 two words, we instantly know that there's stakes, something has 0:12:27.236 --> 0:12:32.716 been right. She's taken two very very very sure, familiar 0:12:33.356 --> 0:12:36.556 simple words, and by pairing them has just created this 0:12:36.596 --> 0:12:39.236 whole understanding of what's going on. Right, So I've always 0:12:39.436 --> 0:12:43.236 That's what I've always strived for. The title of my podcast, 0:12:43.236 --> 0:12:46.556 Revision's History is not quite that, but it's a it is. 0:12:46.596 --> 0:12:50.796 The tension is that that term is something that's usually 0:12:50.916 --> 0:12:54.076 used as a term of disparagement, and so I am 0:12:54.316 --> 0:12:58.916 suggesting that something that's usually disparaging is actually worth listening to. 0:12:59.076 --> 0:13:00.956 Can you help me coin some terms these things that 0:13:00.956 --> 0:13:06.116 I've been feeling. As a comedian, I use comedy as 0:13:06.116 --> 0:13:09.436 a way to, in a healthy way, chance all my 0:13:09.476 --> 0:13:13.796 add and internal feelings into something that is useful and 0:13:14.236 --> 0:13:17.236 possibly provides people joy and comfort. Can you help me 0:13:17.276 --> 0:13:19.436 come up with a term that describes the urge that 0:13:19.516 --> 0:13:25.876 men above forty have to want to engage in devour history, 0:13:27.636 --> 0:13:29.836 you know how, like dads who are forty four years 0:13:29.836 --> 0:13:32.356 old and they're like, I'm super into Ken Burns. Now, 0:13:32.676 --> 0:13:33.596 what is that. 0:13:35.276 --> 0:13:35.796 So true? 0:13:35.836 --> 0:13:38.596 But yeah, yeah, the bad term I have is dad stalgia. 0:13:38.876 --> 0:13:42.116 But that like that, it's not it's not singing. It's 0:13:42.116 --> 0:13:46.796 not singing, baby, help me make it sing. You know 0:13:46.836 --> 0:13:47.556 what I'm talking about. 0:13:47.876 --> 0:13:50.596 I know exactly what you're talking about. It never occurred 0:13:50.596 --> 0:13:53.476 to me till now. It makes me happy that you 0:13:53.516 --> 0:13:57.236 have identified this thing and you're what's right about this 0:13:57.676 --> 0:14:00.596 is that it is absolutely the case that like there's 0:14:00.636 --> 0:14:04.516 a moment when they're all the species of dad. It's 0:14:04.556 --> 0:14:07.276 like there's suddenly it's all about General Patton. 0:14:07.436 --> 0:14:09.996 It's a species of dude. Yes, it is a species 0:14:09.996 --> 0:14:10.836 of heterosexual man. 0:14:11.356 --> 0:14:12.076 Second, war is all. 0:14:12.876 --> 0:14:15.196 I'm going to keep giving you the exposition. Hopefully this 0:14:15.236 --> 0:14:17.476 sparks something. I'm talking about A type of guy. See, 0:14:17.476 --> 0:14:21.516 here's what happens is in your childhood, your teens, your twenties, 0:14:21.556 --> 0:14:24.076 your thirties, you're like, how does the world work? Okay, shit, 0:14:24.196 --> 0:14:24.876 that will hurt me? 0:14:24.916 --> 0:14:25.276 All right? 0:14:25.396 --> 0:14:28.436 What is a bank account? Wells Fargo, got it? This 0:14:28.516 --> 0:14:31.156 is a checkbook? Checks are stupid. This is a credit card, 0:14:31.196 --> 0:14:34.236 Holy shit, interest rates are high. Finally got a job. 0:14:34.356 --> 0:14:36.716 This is how you talk to people. I think I'm awkward. 0:14:36.916 --> 0:14:39.476 I should probably go to therapy. You do all these things. 0:14:39.636 --> 0:14:41.596 Then you come of a certain age and you're like, whoa, 0:14:41.636 --> 0:14:45.756 I kind of get the world and then you're like, 0:14:46.396 --> 0:14:49.476 how the fuck did we get here? And then you 0:14:49.556 --> 0:14:52.556 dive into civil war by ken Burns, nineteen ninety. 0:14:52.676 --> 0:14:57.236 That's right, it's like, but also it's about then that 0:14:57.276 --> 0:14:58.476 word what's that word? 0:14:58.556 --> 0:14:59.396 Because it is. 0:15:00.196 --> 0:15:03.316 You're also hearkening back to at the moment that you're 0:15:03.316 --> 0:15:07.196 beginning to lose your grip on your own masculinity kind 0:15:07.196 --> 0:15:10.996 of physical force, you're HARKing back to a time when 0:15:11.036 --> 0:15:13.436 those were the things that mattered the most. Right, It's 0:15:13.436 --> 0:15:18.476 like it's like, you know, it's Testoster gone. It's like 0:15:19.676 --> 0:15:23.276 it's I don't know what to it is, but that's 0:15:23.356 --> 0:15:26.596 part of it. It is longing for not just longing 0:15:26.636 --> 0:15:28.156 for a lost era, but it's a longing for a 0:15:28.196 --> 0:15:31.356 lost version of yourself. At the time when you could 0:15:31.396 --> 0:15:35.076 no longer be a soldier, you are starting to sort 0:15:35.076 --> 0:15:38.236 of indulge the stories and lives of soldiers. Right. You 0:15:38.276 --> 0:15:40.596 don't do it when you're twenty five because you realize, oh, 0:15:40.596 --> 0:15:44.596 that's me, like being slaughtered in the trenches or whatever. 0:15:44.996 --> 0:15:48.956 But when you're forty five or fifty, it's safe. It's like, oh, no, 0:15:48.996 --> 0:15:50.596 I wouldn't I wouldn't be called up if we went 0:15:50.636 --> 0:15:52.676 to war. So now I can kind of I can 0:15:52.756 --> 0:15:55.356 stay home and watch Saving Private Rhine for the third time. 0:15:55.476 --> 0:16:01.236 Sorry, I'm just like, I'm just still dwelling on Testospy. Okay, 0:16:01.356 --> 0:16:02.916 let's move on to the next concept, because I don't 0:16:02.916 --> 0:16:04.436 want to dwell on this. What I love about you 0:16:04.516 --> 0:16:06.996 is that you are willing to be proven wrong, and 0:16:07.036 --> 0:16:09.396 you talk about this in Revenge of the Tipping Point. Dude, 0:16:09.396 --> 0:16:11.276 your Ted talk was nuts. How did you feel about 0:16:11.276 --> 0:16:13.356 that Ted talk where you basically were like my bad. 0:16:13.556 --> 0:16:15.716 I know. The thing is, it's a flips that I 0:16:15.756 --> 0:16:20.676 was saying earlier because I don't have it. Because I 0:16:20.716 --> 0:16:25.556 get such delight in personal delight in finding out that 0:16:25.636 --> 0:16:29.356 something I thought was one way is another. It never 0:16:29.396 --> 0:16:34.756 occurs to me that there's any public cost to speaking 0:16:34.836 --> 0:16:38.756 about that out loud. Right, It's like, it's fine, Like 0:16:39.516 --> 0:16:42.196 and if you're someone who likes my writing, you're used 0:16:42.236 --> 0:16:45.876 to that, and you're you understand that what the game 0:16:45.876 --> 0:16:48.796 we're playing here is we're playing in the world of ideas. 0:16:49.036 --> 0:16:52.836 Ideas change, So we're gonna every now and again we're 0:16:52.836 --> 0:16:53.596 going to pull up states. 0:16:53.876 --> 0:16:55.116 You know, I got to give you credit, man, It 0:16:55.156 --> 0:16:57.836 was really it's very cool of you to say, hey, 0:16:57.996 --> 0:17:00.396 I was wrong about this, yeah, and then also add 0:17:00.396 --> 0:17:02.996 that into the blockchain because we also live in a 0:17:02.996 --> 0:17:07.796 society where it's deny, deny, defend, deny, deny, deny die. 0:17:07.876 --> 0:17:11.436 I don't understand this, because my understanding this is this, 0:17:11.876 --> 0:17:16.476 there's a whole series of cases where the perception of 0:17:16.516 --> 0:17:22.276 people at the kind of who have public roles and 0:17:22.316 --> 0:17:25.396 the perception of the rest of society are completely at odds. 0:17:25.676 --> 0:17:28.156 I honestly don't think the average American is at all 0:17:28.196 --> 0:17:31.236 distressed to learn that an author whose books they've read 0:17:31.676 --> 0:17:34.476 would stand up and say, you know what, that twenty 0:17:34.516 --> 0:17:36.676 five years ago and I wrote about that change my mind. 0:17:36.756 --> 0:17:39.156 I think I was wrong. I think most people are like, oh, 0:17:39.156 --> 0:17:41.636 that's great. You know why, because the common experience of 0:17:41.676 --> 0:17:44.196 most people in the world is that you have to 0:17:44.276 --> 0:17:46.756 change your mind all the time. Anyone who's had kids, 0:17:47.036 --> 0:17:50.716 all you do is change your positions. Used to be 0:17:51.196 --> 0:17:52.596 you're going to bed at seven, then all of a 0:17:52.596 --> 0:17:54.636 sudden at seven thirty and you're forced to confront the 0:17:54.636 --> 0:17:58.676 fact that the body of work that was devoted of 0:17:58.796 --> 0:18:01.836 parental work, that was devoted to seven PM as a bedtime, 0:18:01.876 --> 0:18:04.756 has gone out the window, and like there's no going back. Yeah, 0:18:04.796 --> 0:18:08.156 that's it, right, So we're you like, but this there 0:18:08.196 --> 0:18:10.596 continues to be this perception among people in the public 0:18:10.596 --> 0:18:15.276 eye that if I do that, I'm somehow jeopardizing my credibility, 0:18:15.516 --> 0:18:19.676 which is so nonsensical to me. Why wouldn't it jeopardize 0:18:19.676 --> 0:18:22.116 your credibility if you refuse to change your mind in 0:18:22.116 --> 0:18:25.876 the face of a rapidly changing world, Like that's credit 0:18:26.196 --> 0:18:29.156 that someone who's like saying the same thing today as 0:18:29.156 --> 0:18:32.756 they said twenty five years ago. That is a threat 0:18:32.756 --> 0:18:33.436 to their credibility. 0:18:33.516 --> 0:18:38.436 I think that is a byproduct of people saying, in 0:18:38.916 --> 0:18:44.876 certain particular circles, you cannot say you're sorry. It will 0:18:44.916 --> 0:18:49.556 fuck up with your credibility. That's because I think people 0:18:49.556 --> 0:18:51.636 have noticed some of the most powerful people on planet 0:18:51.636 --> 0:18:59.796 Earth are psychopaths that do not apologize, and we live 0:19:00.276 --> 0:19:05.996 in their ecosystem. The shrapnel of their ideas affect us. Yeah, 0:19:06.436 --> 0:19:08.516 Elon Musk, Donald Trump. 0:19:08.516 --> 0:19:08.996 Et cetera. 0:19:09.236 --> 0:19:13.516 Right, it's their ideas that they then push notification to 0:19:13.556 --> 0:19:15.676 the entire world, and we have to deal with it. 0:19:15.756 --> 0:19:18.276 Yeah. I interview these two people to the most impressive 0:19:18.316 --> 0:19:23.476 people I've ever met the other week Secretary of the 0:19:23.516 --> 0:19:25.956 Air Force and former Chief of Staff of the Air Force. 0:19:25.996 --> 0:19:28.916 So Secretary is a political appointe. Chief of staff runs 0:19:28.956 --> 0:19:31.556 the place. They knew each other. They were friends and 0:19:32.676 --> 0:19:36.916 when they were both running the Air Force. There's a 0:19:36.956 --> 0:19:40.796 mass shooter I forget where Oklahoma goes in and kills 0:19:40.836 --> 0:19:43.716 twenty five people in like a church. They get a 0:19:43.756 --> 0:19:46.676 call or in the morning that guy is an ex 0:19:46.716 --> 0:19:50.916 Air Force person, and then they get another call and 0:19:50.956 --> 0:19:56.316 by the way, he was drummed out of the Air 0:19:56.356 --> 0:19:59.996 Force dishonorably for committing some kind of act of violence 0:20:00.036 --> 0:20:02.796 involving a gun. And it was your responsibility to notify 0:20:02.836 --> 0:20:07.076 the FBI so that he would be on a list 0:20:07.076 --> 0:20:08.596 that wouldn't allow him to buy a gun. And you 0:20:08.636 --> 0:20:14.716 didn't do it right, Like shit, my institution screwed up, 0:20:14.716 --> 0:20:16.476 and as a result, this guy went out and killed 0:20:16.516 --> 0:20:20.636 twenty five people. So they have a meeting, and everyone 0:20:20.676 --> 0:20:22.836 in the meeting, all the top brass in Washington there, 0:20:23.196 --> 0:20:26.556 tells them go slow, let's work the South. There's maybe 0:20:26.556 --> 0:20:30.196 a weigh, some loopholes. And they're like, no, we screwed up. 0:20:30.716 --> 0:20:33.316 We're gonna just hold a press conference and say we 0:20:33.356 --> 0:20:36.836 screwed up. And so they go, they say we screwed up. 0:20:37.116 --> 0:20:40.396 They go towards Congress and they say, we blew it. 0:20:40.516 --> 0:20:42.556 We made a mistake, Like we've got to have better. 0:20:42.596 --> 0:20:44.796 We're going to find out all the people who are accountable. 0:20:44.796 --> 0:20:45.756 We're going to fix this thing. 0:20:45.876 --> 0:20:45.996 BA. 0:20:46.836 --> 0:20:50.556 And then there's a funeral for some of the people 0:20:51.236 --> 0:20:53.916 killed by that shooter. And the guy who's the chief 0:20:53.916 --> 0:20:56.116 of staff of the Air Force puts on his uniform, 0:20:56.436 --> 0:21:00.436 flies down to Texas, flies down to Texas and attends 0:21:00.636 --> 0:21:03.516 the funeral of the people who were killed because of 0:21:03.556 --> 0:21:06.756 ant of an air by his institution. And I said 0:21:06.756 --> 0:21:10.356