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Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hey everyone, I recently went on the podcast to

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Speaker 1: one of my very favorite comedians Asan Minaj, and we

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Speaker 1: had so much fun together, I thought we'd drop our

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Speaker 1: conversation into the revisionist history feed. My only regret is

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Speaker 1: that we didn't talk more about basketball, since he's a

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Speaker 1: fanatic and I'm kind of a phanatic too. So have

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Speaker 1: me back Asan and we can correct the oversight. Here

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Speaker 1: you go, enjoy the conversation.

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Speaker 2: Last thing, and I don't know if you got your

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Speaker 2: pep and your step to do this, but you are

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Speaker 2: very famous for giving people blurbs on the back of

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Speaker 2: their book. Oh yeah, Now, first things first, what is

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Speaker 2: a blurb? Because it sounds like a slur that you

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Speaker 2: would hear in Harry Potter.

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Speaker 1: You bloody blurb two cents three cents endorsement goes on

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Speaker 1: the back of a book which says I read it,

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Speaker 1: I liked it. You should read it too.

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Speaker 3: Do you mind giving a blurb for this interview? Kim?

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, you're the master of blurb.

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Speaker 3: I've seen your blurbs on many different books at.

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Speaker 1: Niz Hassan got me to cry. I wasn't expecting it.

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Speaker 1: I wasn't expecting that to happen. Anyone who can make

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Speaker 1: their guests cry deserves a shout out. I would listen

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Speaker 1: to Hassan doesn't Know on a regular basis from now on.

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Speaker 3: How are you prepared to be dazzled?

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Speaker 1: Pare to be dazzled?

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Speaker 2: Maybe no other writer epitomizes popular nonfiction like Malcolm Gladwell.

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Speaker 2: He literally made nonfiction popular. Millions and millions of people

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Speaker 2: have read his books, and that has gotten him in

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Speaker 2: trouble with two groups, one snobs who hate popular things,

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Speaker 2: and two people impacted by some of the ideas that

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Speaker 2: Malcolm Gladwell helped make popular. So I sat down with

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Speaker 2: Malcolm to talk about the incredible new season of his podcast,

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Speaker 2: Provisionist History and the profound impact that it had on him.

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Speaker 2: We shook me why his books have had such a

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Speaker 2: wide appeal.

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Speaker 1: What my books do is allow you to play with

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Speaker 1: the world of ideas.

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Speaker 3: And we get into his hot take on working from home.

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Speaker 1: I'll never live that one down.

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Speaker 3: I also asked him about that Blink cameo and White lotus.

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Speaker 3: Was it a compliment or a snake diss? I mean,

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Speaker 3: Mike White, what are you doing here? Are you coming from?

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Speaker 3: My boy?

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Speaker 2: Malcolm, and more importantly, are you casting me in season

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Speaker 2: four or what? Because I am available? Do you prefer

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Speaker 2: writing books or do you prefer podcasting?

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Speaker 1: Well? I like them both because it's so different. It's

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Speaker 1: like saying, do you prefer chicken to shrimp? I mean,

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Speaker 1: I like them both, but there are hard to compare

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Speaker 1: because there's things you want to do with podcasting that

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Speaker 1: you can't do with writing, and vice versa. The thing

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Speaker 1: I got tired of in writing books, I'm tired of

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Speaker 1: it was too strong a word, but I wanted to

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Speaker 1: get away from was I didn't like the insistence of

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Speaker 1: my own voice. So the thing that's lovely about podcasting

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Speaker 1: is or the kind of narrative audio storytelling that I do,

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Speaker 1: is that I get to recede and what I'm doing

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Speaker 1: is collecting other people's voices.

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Speaker 2: I mean, your books have permeated culture in a way

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Speaker 2: that is so It's so Hudson News Stand deep Like,

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Speaker 2: there is not a year that I have traveled where

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Speaker 2: I have not seen a Malcolm Gladwell book at an

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Speaker 2: airport in the United States of America. Did you see

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Speaker 2: the cameo of Blink You on season one of White Lotus?

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Speaker 3: Oh? Yes, how'd you feel about that?

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Speaker 1: That's hilarious.

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Speaker 3: Shane was reading it. This is a moment.

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Speaker 1: I did love that. I love that show.

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Speaker 2: How did you feel about the way Mike White described

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Speaker 2: this moment? So this is what Mike White said about it.

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Speaker 2: Blink just felt like such a Norman book. It seems

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Speaker 2: like he's stoking his curiosity, but it hasn't gone very deep.

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Speaker 2: Gladwell's the kind of writer that makes you feel smart

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Speaker 2: while you're reading it, whether you are or aren't.

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Speaker 1: Oh, I love that. That's a very sweet thing to say.

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Speaker 3: Don't you think some people think of this as a desk.

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Speaker 1: I don't think.

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Speaker 2: I see this as a compliment. So he was writing that, like,

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Speaker 2: that's why Shane is reading the book in it. But

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Speaker 2: I think I'm like, hey, you create egalitarian, accessible stories

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Speaker 2: that people can read.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's but it's I think if I maybe

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Speaker 1: reading too deeply into that. But the way I would

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Speaker 1: phrase it is most people, as part of their daily lives,

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Speaker 1: don't have a chance to engage in the world of ideas.

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Speaker 1: People's lives are full, they have kids, jobs, responsibilities. They're

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Speaker 1: not reading the Journal of the American Sociological Society at

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Speaker 1: night right, or they're not getting exposed to the latest

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Speaker 1: theory about this or that and the other. There's no

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Speaker 1: place for it. They don't and so they don't get them.

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Speaker 1: They don't get a chance to quote unquote, if feeling

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Speaker 1: smart means being able to play in the world of ideas,

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Speaker 1: they have limited opportunities for that. What my books do

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Speaker 1: is allow you to play with the world of ideas.

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Speaker 1: I say, I'll go out and find cool ideas for you,

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Speaker 1: arrange them, let you just indulge in them, see whether

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Speaker 1: you like them, try them on for size, reject them

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Speaker 1: if you want like. And that's the thing. The books

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Speaker 1: have been successful because people have a They recognize the

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Speaker 1: fact that once you leave college, you don't have easy

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Speaker 1: access to right.

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Speaker 2: Right yeah, yeah, just hours and hours of kind of free, open,

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Speaker 2: guided time to explore big ideas, explore big ideas.

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Speaker 1: I have the luxury of doing that for others, and

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Speaker 1: that I think is a I think of that as

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Speaker 1: a noble calling.

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Speaker 2: How do you feel when people put what you do

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Speaker 2: on this huge pedestal that you go these Malcolm Gladwell

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Speaker 2: books are these seminal books for intellectualism.

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Speaker 3: Do you feel like that's too big?

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Speaker 2: Of a title because I had this with with my

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Speaker 2: Netflix show as well with Patriot Act. People feel like

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Speaker 2: these enfotainment shows are the same thing as being deep experts.

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Speaker 2: Like if you watch Patriot Act and you see our

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Speaker 2: episode about fentanyl, you're not a fentanyl expert. I'm not

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Speaker 2: a fentanyl expert. Like I'm literally reading off a prompter

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Speaker 2: and I learned about this like a month and a

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Speaker 2: half ago.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think I do think that's too much,

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Speaker 1: But I think what to the extent that what people

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Speaker 1: are doing when they say that is expressing their enthusiasm.

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Speaker 1: I'm happy because what they're what they're really saying is wow,

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Speaker 1: I got to play in this world of ideas and

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Speaker 1: it is way more fun than I thought. That's cool,

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Speaker 1: That's what they're saying. Yeah, and they don't, and you're

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Speaker 1: capturing that a moment in time, because usually what happens

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Speaker 1: then is they feel emboldened to go on on their

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Speaker 1: own and discover other stuff. And so the moment when

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Speaker 1: they think that, you know, Outliers, was the be all

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Speaker 1: end all, it passes because they then start to discover

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Speaker 1: on their own other ideas that complement their understanding of

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Speaker 1: the world and they fall in love with some other thing.

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Speaker 1: I'm the gateway drug. I'm not. I'm not the addiction.

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Speaker 2: Is is your dream that it gets them on a

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Speaker 2: path to being Like I need to access scientific research.

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Speaker 1: But I want to be the first thing. I want

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Speaker 1: to be the first thing you read, not the last

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Speaker 1: thing you read on that subject.

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Speaker 2: I think one of your greatest gifts is probably your

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Speaker 2: gift and ability to passionately tell a story. I feel

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Speaker 2: like you could tell a story literally about anything and

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Speaker 2: get me engaged, Like could you do a revisionist history

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Speaker 2: about W twos and W nine's.

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Speaker 3: Like how would you attack that?

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Speaker 2: Like give us a little bit of that Gladwell juice

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Speaker 2: of Like how do you take these very mundane topics

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Speaker 2: and make them super duper interesting.

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Speaker 1: You know, that's a tough one. I have to look

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Speaker 1: into it a little bit. I've been doing this a

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Speaker 1: version of this right now because I've been working on

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Speaker 1: this project about American gun violence, and i want to

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Speaker 1: tell a story about American gun violence and not talk

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Speaker 1: about guns, not at all. You got to talk about

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Speaker 1: kinds of sumptions. I'm interested in exploring all the all

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Speaker 1: the peculiarities of the way America and think about gun

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Speaker 1: violence that have that aren't the ones we normally think about.

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Speaker 1: And so there's one. There's one where I do an

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Speaker 1: entire chapter on the Second Amendment, which is all about

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Speaker 1: this is the grammar of the Second Amendment and understanding

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Speaker 1: in the eighteenth century if you wrote a sentence like that,

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Speaker 1: which is it's a sentence that begins with an absolute

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Speaker 1: clause and then has the operative clause, and the absolute

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Speaker 1: clause is what's called it an initial being clause. Particular

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Speaker 1: kind of absolute clause, and initial being clauses loom really

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Speaker 1: large in the grammar of the eighteenth century in a

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Speaker 1: way they don't now. And so the whole thing is

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Speaker 1: all about eighteenth century grammar. And it is like, I

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Speaker 1: don't know if I pulled it off because no one

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Speaker 1: else has read it. It's a draft, no one else

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Speaker 1: has read it.

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Speaker 2: But this, essentially, this is like a funk masterflex. Can

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Speaker 2: we get a bomb on this? Can we get a

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Speaker 2: bomb drop a hot ninety something bomb drop on this?

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Speaker 2: This could be the next this could be the exclusive,

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Speaker 2: This is your jay Z hot ninety something, this, this

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Speaker 2: is me, this is this could be the next book.

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Speaker 1: Well, this is a chap during the next book, Well.

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Speaker 2: Just drop a bomb on a flex. Go ahead, did

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Speaker 2: a bomb? Just drop We're gonna do it in a post.

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Speaker 1: Okay, but it's possible. I did not succeed in this,

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Speaker 1: But I got so deep into eighteenth century grammar. And

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Speaker 1: what's interesting about it is that you realize the whole

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Speaker 1: point of going on this incredibly nerdy grammatical path is

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Speaker 1: to make you understand that when the Supreme Court passes

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Speaker 1: opinions on the Second Amendment, they are making shit up.

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Speaker 1: They have no clue what they're talking about, and anyone

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Speaker 1: who knows what they're talking about is like, oh my god,

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Speaker 1: this is nuts. To pass a ruling about gun rights

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Speaker 1: based on our understanding of the Second Amendment requires it

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Speaker 1: to interpret the Second Amendment because it's a sentence that

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Speaker 1: actually makes no sense. It's a pre modern sentence. It's

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Speaker 1: like not a sentence we'd ever write today, right, And

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Speaker 1: they presume to interpret the sentence without knowing any thing

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Speaker 1: about linguistics, in particular, without learning anything about historical linguistics.

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Speaker 1: That's ridiculous. You can't read a sentence from seventeen eighty

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Speaker 1: three or whatever it was in as as someone living

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Speaker 1: in twenty twenty five and makes sense of it. You've

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Speaker 1: got to talk to people who knew what the way

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Speaker 1: people phrase things. In seventeen eighty three got it right.

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Speaker 1: And they didn't do that. They just thought, oh, I

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Speaker 1: can pull out Websters the Dictionary off the shelf and

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Speaker 1: just tell you what the words mean.

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Speaker 3: This is.

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Speaker 1: If you did this for a paper in college, you

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Speaker 1: would get a C minus.

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Speaker 2: You are very good at coining particular terms that catch

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Speaker 2: like wildfire, tipping point for example, obviously your super popular

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Speaker 2: book that came out in two thousand, Tipping Point. I

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Speaker 2: read it, many people read it. What is it about

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Speaker 2: certain terms that make them just catch on like wildfire?

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Speaker 2: Like I'll give an example.

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Speaker 3: You know the.

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Speaker 2: Term bucket list? Okay, that term came from this movie.

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Speaker 2: There was a movie called The bucket List with Jack

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Speaker 2: Nicholson and more startment with it starts with this.

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Speaker 1: It was not used.

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Speaker 2: It does not pre date this movie. Yeah, like in

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Speaker 2: social lexicon, it's not crazy. But my question is is

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Speaker 2: how do you know that something is going to catch

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Speaker 2: like that?

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Speaker 1: You don't, I mean, how could you know? I mean

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Speaker 1: you can, you can. It can sound good.

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Speaker 2: To you, but but picking a title is pretty big,

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Speaker 2: like picking a title.

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Speaker 3: You know this.

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Speaker 2: You're sitting with this PDF, you're reviewing it, you're revising it.

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Speaker 2: It's like naming an album.

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Speaker 3: You go, okay, this is this is the phrase.

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Speaker 1: I mean. I have a theory about what a title,

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Speaker 1: what the perfect title is, although none of my books

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Speaker 1: have ever had the perfect title. The perfect title is

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Speaker 1: a oxymoron. So there has to be some tension between

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Speaker 1: the two kind of operative words in the title. So

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Speaker 1: the famous environmental book for the sixties, Silent Spring, is

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Speaker 1: to my mind, to perfect title. Silent and spring are

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Speaker 1: in opposition to each other, Right, it's an oxymoron. No

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Speaker 1: Spring is silent, and she's giving us she's that with

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Speaker 1: two words, we instantly know that there's stakes, something has

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Speaker 1: been right. She's taken two very very very sure, familiar

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Speaker 1: simple words, and by pairing them has just created this

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Speaker 1: whole understanding of what's going on. Right, So I've always

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Speaker 1: That's what I've always strived for. The title of my podcast,

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Speaker 1: Revision's History is not quite that, but it's a it is.

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Speaker 1: The tension is that that term is something that's usually

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Speaker 1: used as a term of disparagement, and so I am

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Speaker 1: suggesting that something that's usually disparaging is actually worth listening to.

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Speaker 2: Can you help me coin some terms these things that

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Speaker 2: I've been feeling. As a comedian, I use comedy as

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Speaker 2: a way to, in a healthy way, chance all my

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Speaker 2: add and internal feelings into something that is useful and

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Speaker 2: possibly provides people joy and comfort. Can you help me

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Speaker 2: come up with a term that describes the urge that

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Speaker 2: men above forty have to want to engage in devour history,

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Speaker 2: you know how, like dads who are forty four years

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Speaker 2: old and they're like, I'm super into Ken Burns. Now,

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Speaker 2: what is that.

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Speaker 1: So true?

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Speaker 2: But yeah, yeah, the bad term I have is dad stalgia.

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Speaker 2: But that like that, it's not it's not singing. It's

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Speaker 2: not singing, baby, help me make it sing. You know

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Speaker 2: what I'm talking about.

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Speaker 1: I know exactly what you're talking about. It never occurred

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Speaker 1: to me till now. It makes me happy that you

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Speaker 1: have identified this thing and you're what's right about this

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Speaker 1: is that it is absolutely the case that like there's

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Speaker 1: a moment when they're all the species of dad. It's

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Speaker 1: like there's suddenly it's all about General Patton.

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Speaker 2: It's a species of dude. Yes, it is a species

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Speaker 2: of heterosexual man.

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Speaker 1: Second, war is all.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to keep giving you the exposition. Hopefully this

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Speaker 2: sparks something. I'm talking about A type of guy. See,

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Speaker 2: here's what happens is in your childhood, your teens, your twenties,

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Speaker 2: your thirties, you're like, how does the world work? Okay, shit,

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Speaker 2: that will hurt me?

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Speaker 3: All right?

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Speaker 2: What is a bank account? Wells Fargo, got it? This

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Speaker 2: is a checkbook? Checks are stupid. This is a credit card,

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Speaker 2: Holy shit, interest rates are high. Finally got a job.

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Speaker 2: This is how you talk to people. I think I'm awkward.

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Speaker 2: I should probably go to therapy. You do all these things.

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Speaker 2: Then you come of a certain age and you're like, whoa,

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Speaker 2: I kind of get the world and then you're like,

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Speaker 2: how the fuck did we get here? And then you

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Speaker 2: dive into civil war by ken Burns, nineteen ninety.

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Speaker 1: That's right, it's like, but also it's about then that

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Speaker 1: word what's that word?

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Speaker 3: Because it is.

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Speaker 1: You're also hearkening back to at the moment that you're

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Speaker 1: beginning to lose your grip on your own masculinity kind

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Speaker 1: of physical force, you're HARKing back to a time when

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Speaker 1: those were the things that mattered the most. Right, It's

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Speaker 1: like it's like, you know, it's Testoster gone. It's like

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Speaker 1: it's I don't know what to it is, but that's

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Speaker 1: part of it. It is longing for not just longing

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Speaker 1: for a lost era, but it's a longing for a

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Speaker 1: lost version of yourself. At the time when you could

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Speaker 1: no longer be a soldier, you are starting to sort

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Speaker 1: of indulge the stories and lives of soldiers. Right. You

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Speaker 1: don't do it when you're twenty five because you realize, oh,

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Speaker 1: that's me, like being slaughtered in the trenches or whatever.

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Speaker 1: But when you're forty five or fifty, it's safe. It's like, oh, no,

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't I wouldn't be called up if we went

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Speaker 1: to war. So now I can kind of I can

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Speaker 1: stay home and watch Saving Private Rhine for the third time.

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Speaker 2: Sorry, I'm just like, I'm just still dwelling on Testospy. Okay,

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Speaker 2: let's move on to the next concept, because I don't

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Speaker 2: want to dwell on this. What I love about you

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Speaker 2: is that you are willing to be proven wrong, and

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Speaker 2: you talk about this in Revenge of the Tipping Point. Dude,

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Speaker 2: your Ted talk was nuts. How did you feel about

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Speaker 2: that Ted talk where you basically were like my bad.

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Speaker 1: I know. The thing is, it's a flips that I

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Speaker 1: was saying earlier because I don't have it. Because I

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Speaker 1: get such delight in personal delight in finding out that

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Speaker 1: something I thought was one way is another. It never

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Speaker 1: occurs to me that there's any public cost to speaking

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Speaker 1: about that out loud. Right, It's like, it's fine, Like

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Speaker 1: and if you're someone who likes my writing, you're used

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Speaker 1: to that, and you're you understand that what the game

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Speaker 1: we're playing here is we're playing in the world of ideas.

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Speaker 1: Ideas change, So we're gonna every now and again we're

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Speaker 1: going to pull up states.

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Speaker 2: You know, I got to give you credit, man, It

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Speaker 2: was really it's very cool of you to say, hey,

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Speaker 2: I was wrong about this, yeah, and then also add

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Speaker 2: that into the blockchain because we also live in a

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Speaker 2: society where it's deny, deny, defend, deny, deny, deny die.

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Speaker 1: I don't understand this, because my understanding this is this,

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Speaker 1: there's a whole series of cases where the perception of

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Speaker 1: people at the kind of who have public roles and

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Speaker 1: the perception of the rest of society are completely at odds.

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Speaker 1: I honestly don't think the average American is at all

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Speaker 1: distressed to learn that an author whose books they've read

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Speaker 1: would stand up and say, you know what, that twenty

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Speaker 1: five years ago and I wrote about that change my mind.

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Speaker 1: I think I was wrong. I think most people are like, oh,

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Speaker 1: that's great. You know why, because the common experience of

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Speaker 1: most people in the world is that you have to

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Speaker 1: change your mind all the time. Anyone who's had kids,

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Speaker 1: all you do is change your positions. Used to be

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Speaker 1: you're going to bed at seven, then all of a

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Speaker 1: sudden at seven thirty and you're forced to confront the

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Speaker 1: fact that the body of work that was devoted of

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Speaker 1: parental work, that was devoted to seven PM as a bedtime,

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Speaker 1: has gone out the window, and like there's no going back. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's it, right, So we're you like, but this there

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Speaker 1: continues to be this perception among people in the public

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Speaker 1: eye that if I do that, I'm somehow jeopardizing my credibility,

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Speaker 1: which is so nonsensical to me. Why wouldn't it jeopardize

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Speaker 1: your credibility if you refuse to change your mind in

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Speaker 1: the face of a rapidly changing world, Like that's credit

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Speaker 1: that someone who's like saying the same thing today as

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Speaker 1: they said twenty five years ago. That is a threat

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Speaker 1: to their credibility.

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Speaker 2: I think that is a byproduct of people saying, in

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Speaker 2: certain particular circles, you cannot say you're sorry. It will

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Speaker 2: fuck up with your credibility. That's because I think people

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Speaker 2: have noticed some of the most powerful people on planet

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Speaker 2: Earth are psychopaths that do not apologize, and we live

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Speaker 2: in their ecosystem. The shrapnel of their ideas affect us. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: Elon Musk, Donald Trump.

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Speaker 3: Et cetera.

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Speaker 2: Right, it's their ideas that they then push notification to

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Speaker 2: the entire world, and we have to deal with it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I interview these two people to the most impressive

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Speaker 1: people I've ever met the other week Secretary of the

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Speaker 1: Air Force and former Chief of Staff of the Air Force.

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Speaker 1: So Secretary is a political appointe. Chief of staff runs

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Speaker 1: the place. They knew each other. They were friends and

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Speaker 1: when they were both running the Air Force. There's a

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Speaker 1: mass shooter I forget where Oklahoma goes in and kills

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Speaker 1: twenty five people in like a church. They get a

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Speaker 1: call or in the morning that guy is an ex

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Speaker 1: Air Force person, and then they get another call and

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Speaker 1: by the way, he was drummed out of the Air

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Speaker 1: Force dishonorably for committing some kind of act of violence

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Speaker 1: involving a gun. And it was your responsibility to notify

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Speaker 1: the FBI so that he would be on a list

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Speaker 1: that wouldn't allow him to buy a gun. And you

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Speaker 1: didn't do it right, Like shit, my institution screwed up,

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Speaker 1: and as a result, this guy went out and killed

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Speaker 1: twenty five people. So they have a meeting, and everyone

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Speaker 1: in the meeting, all the top brass in Washington there,

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Speaker 1: tells them go slow, let's work the South. There's maybe

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Speaker 1: a weigh, some loopholes. And they're like, no, we screwed up.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna just hold a press conference and say we

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Speaker 1: screwed up. And so they go, they say we screwed up.

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Speaker 1: They go towards Congress and they say, we blew it.

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Speaker 1: We made a mistake, Like we've got to have better.

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Speaker 1: We're going to find out all the people who are accountable.

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Speaker 1: We're going to fix this thing.

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Speaker 2: BA.

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Speaker 1: And then there's a funeral for some of the people

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Speaker 1: killed by that shooter. And the guy who's the chief

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Speaker 1: of staff of the Air Force puts on his uniform,

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Speaker 1: flies down to Texas, flies down to Texas and attends

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Speaker 1: the funeral of the people who were killed because of

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Speaker 1: ant of an air by his institution. And I said

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Speaker 1: to him, Jesus, did you what did you think was

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Speaker 1: going to happen? I didn't know what was going to happen,

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Speaker 1: but it was my responsibility to go. And I was

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Speaker 1: so it was so anithetical to everything about the way

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Speaker 1: public servants behave popular expectations in popular culture. And it

406
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Speaker 1: was two these two incredibly decent people who, by the way,

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Speaker 1: they weren't personally responsible. It wasn't like they personally didn't

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Speaker 1: report it. It was like something they run an organization

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Speaker 1: with like one hundred thousand people. But they took responsibility.

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Speaker 1: They took the heat before Congress. And then the guy

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Speaker 1: puts on his uniform and flies to Texas and goes

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Speaker 1: to the funeral and goes up to the guy who

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Speaker 1: just who was one guy there who lost six children,

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Speaker 1: goes up and gives the guy a hug, right, just

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Speaker 1: like And.

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Speaker 2: So you were blown away by the empathy, the humanity,

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Speaker 2: and by the fact that he.

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Speaker 1: Didn't sure, he was not afraid to say I fucked up, right,

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Speaker 1: And he said, at the end of the day, they

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Speaker 1: were way better. They were way better off for doing that.

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Speaker 1: Said when they went to for Congress, everyone was expecting

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Speaker 1: them to deflect, deny, and delay. And when he said no, no,

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Speaker 1: we screwed up as the first thing out of his mouth,

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Speaker 1: He's like they were completely shocked, right, And it's like

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Speaker 1: sometimes the hardest thing is not just the best.

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Speaker 2: And maybe it's so refreshing because people and especially adults

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Speaker 2: in corporate American in their day to day life, hear it.

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Speaker 2: Never hear that from those who are in power, from

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Speaker 2: their manager all the way up to the sitting politician.

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Speaker 1: Or beer do Why is it? I listened to that

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Speaker 1: story and I was like, how can you listen to

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Speaker 1: this story and still believe it's a good idea too?

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00:22:49,636 --> 00:22:52,716
Speaker 2: I mean, this is such an inspiring thing that you're describing.

434
00:22:53,156 --> 00:22:55,116
Speaker 2: Just so our listeners are aware, Can you describe what

435
00:22:55,116 --> 00:22:56,756
Speaker 2: you talked about in Revenge of the Tipping Point and

436
00:22:56,796 --> 00:22:59,636
Speaker 2: in your ted talk in regards to the broken windows

437
00:22:59,716 --> 00:23:02,556
Speaker 2: theory that you had in two thousand book.

438
00:23:02,636 --> 00:23:05,876
Speaker 1: In my twenty book twenty five years ago I made

439
00:23:06,556 --> 00:23:08,356
Speaker 1: I was trying to describe why crime fell in New

440
00:23:08,436 --> 00:23:12,396
Speaker 1: York City madically in the nineteen nineties, and I spent

441
00:23:12,476 --> 00:23:14,716
Speaker 1: a lot of time arguing that it was the result

442
00:23:14,796 --> 00:23:18,676
Speaker 1: of what was called broken windows policing, which was this

443
00:23:18,836 --> 00:23:25,636
Speaker 1: idea that relatively trivial signs of disorder are sent a

444
00:23:25,716 --> 00:23:31,156
Speaker 1: signal to would be criminals that behavior, misbehavior is possible.

445
00:23:31,716 --> 00:23:34,796
Speaker 1: More than that almost welcomed, right, no one's in charge.

446
00:23:35,876 --> 00:23:39,556
Speaker 1: That idea was then taken by the NAYPD, and that

447
00:23:39,716 --> 00:23:41,796
Speaker 1: was the basis for the stopp and frisk program, where

448
00:23:41,796 --> 00:23:44,036
Speaker 1: the NAPD went out and over the course of many

449
00:23:44,116 --> 00:23:48,676
Speaker 1: years stopped hundreds of thousands of young black men on

450
00:23:48,756 --> 00:23:52,436
Speaker 1: a street looking for weapons. Because that was broken windows policing.

451
00:23:52,516 --> 00:23:55,716
Speaker 1: It's like, all right, if we crack down on gun carrying,

452
00:23:55,756 --> 00:23:59,836
Speaker 1: we'll send a message that people will I At the time,

453
00:23:59,916 --> 00:24:02,076
Speaker 1: like many people in New York thought that stop and

454
00:24:02,156 --> 00:24:04,396
Speaker 1: frisk was a really good idea. It's like, yeah, that's

455
00:24:04,436 --> 00:24:06,516
Speaker 1: a good extension of this idea. That's the way we

456
00:24:06,916 --> 00:24:11,156
Speaker 1: keep the crime rate down. A court stepped in and

457
00:24:11,276 --> 00:24:15,156
Speaker 1: threw out as unconstitutional stop and frisk policing, and YPD

458
00:24:15,316 --> 00:24:18,876
Speaker 1: went from stopping hundreds of millions of young black men

459
00:24:18,916 --> 00:24:22,916
Speaker 1: every year to almost none. And what happened, crime continued

460
00:24:22,956 --> 00:24:27,436
Speaker 1: to fall. So if you wrote it if you endorse

461
00:24:27,476 --> 00:24:29,476
Speaker 1: stop and frisk, and then you were suddenly faced with

462
00:24:29,516 --> 00:24:33,516
Speaker 1: the empirical reality that once stop and frisk went away,

463
00:24:33,556 --> 00:24:36,196
Speaker 1: things did not get worse, but rather better. You have

464
00:24:36,236 --> 00:24:41,076
Speaker 1: to re examine your position, right, got it? Wait, didn't

465
00:24:41,076 --> 00:24:42,316
Speaker 1: work the way I thought it was going to work.

466
00:24:42,596 --> 00:24:44,956
Speaker 1: In my heart when I read that court case that

467
00:24:44,996 --> 00:24:47,356
Speaker 1: throughout stopping frisk, I'm forgetten. When it was two thousand

468
00:24:47,356 --> 00:24:50,636
Speaker 1: and something, Like many New Yorkers, I was like, this

469
00:24:50,716 --> 00:24:51,996
Speaker 1: is the end. It's all coming back.

470
00:24:52,436 --> 00:24:54,516
Speaker 3: Oh you thought New York would turn into Gotham City.

471
00:24:54,596 --> 00:24:56,196
Speaker 1: Oh my god. I thought the crime was coming back.

472
00:24:56,236 --> 00:24:59,156
Speaker 1: And so did. I mean, if you read editorials in

473
00:24:59,196 --> 00:25:01,436
Speaker 1: all the papers in New York and early aughts when

474
00:25:01,436 --> 00:25:05,236
Speaker 1: that court decision went down, everybody was like glooming and dooming,

475
00:25:05,316 --> 00:25:08,996
Speaker 1: We're bringing back the battle days. Didn't happen. The reverse happened.

476
00:25:09,316 --> 00:25:12,716
Speaker 1: Crime accelerate, the crime drop accelerated. So I just gave

477
00:25:12,756 --> 00:25:15,236
Speaker 1: a ted talk when my book came out, my last book,

478
00:25:15,236 --> 00:25:19,316
Speaker 1: Criben's a tipping point where I talk about this, where

479
00:25:19,316 --> 00:25:23,556
Speaker 1: I just said I was wrong, you know, and I

480
00:25:24,996 --> 00:25:27,676
Speaker 1: have to take ownership of this. And here's the thing

481
00:25:27,716 --> 00:25:31,396
Speaker 1: that I have come to understand about that explanation I

482
00:25:31,476 --> 00:25:35,236
Speaker 1: gave of why crime fell in New York I was wrong.

483
00:25:37,676 --> 00:25:39,636
Speaker 1: I wrote a book that was read by a ton

484
00:25:39,676 --> 00:25:43,276
Speaker 1: of people, millions of people in two thousand, arguing that

485
00:25:43,356 --> 00:25:46,676
Speaker 1: the way to explain New York City's crime drop was

486
00:25:46,996 --> 00:25:49,036
Speaker 1: essentially some version of aggressive policing.

487
00:25:49,196 --> 00:25:52,476
Speaker 2: How did you feel when you found out that, oh,

488
00:25:52,516 --> 00:25:58,676
Speaker 2: the NYPD used your book as literary or intellectual justification

489
00:25:58,956 --> 00:25:59,956
Speaker 2: to stop in frisk.

490
00:26:00,236 --> 00:26:02,676
Speaker 1: I mean there were many I wasn't the sole source

491
00:26:02,716 --> 00:26:06,156
Speaker 1: of there, but it was a biography, right, Yeah, but

492
00:26:06,316 --> 00:26:09,116
Speaker 1: my book became part of this kind of zeitgeisty discussion,

493
00:26:09,356 --> 00:26:13,036
Speaker 1: discussion about how aggressive policing was the way to cure crime.

494
00:26:15,396 --> 00:26:18,596
Speaker 1: I mean, if I think back to that time, I

495
00:26:18,596 --> 00:26:22,796
Speaker 1: think I was flattered. How could you not be, because

496
00:26:22,796 --> 00:26:26,036
Speaker 1: we were in the middle of this extraordinary urban experiment

497
00:26:26,116 --> 00:26:28,556
Speaker 1: where Neil goes from being one of the most dangerous

498
00:26:28,556 --> 00:26:30,516
Speaker 1: big cities in the world to one of the safest.

499
00:26:30,756 --> 00:26:33,476
Speaker 1: And the idea that I was part of a movement

500
00:26:33,556 --> 00:26:38,876
Speaker 1: that kind of helped justify this crackdown on crime was

501
00:26:38,916 --> 00:26:45,756
Speaker 1: like made me feel good. And then find out oops, at.

502
00:26:45,596 --> 00:26:47,476
Speaker 2: The end of the Ted talk, a woman comes on

503
00:26:47,516 --> 00:26:49,836
Speaker 2: stage and thanks you for your mea Kalpa, And then

504
00:26:49,876 --> 00:26:52,916
Speaker 2: you guys get into an interesting discussion about the way

505
00:26:52,956 --> 00:26:55,156
Speaker 2: your work was interpreted for Did you.

506
00:26:55,116 --> 00:26:57,516
Speaker 3: Ever think about what if they got it wrong?

507
00:26:58,516 --> 00:27:01,716
Speaker 1: What if it was wrong and innocent people were going

508
00:27:01,796 --> 00:27:02,836
Speaker 1: to have to experience this?

509
00:27:02,916 --> 00:27:04,516
Speaker 3: What were your thoughts about that back then?

510
00:27:05,476 --> 00:27:07,596
Speaker 1: Well, I wasn't thinking about that.

511
00:27:08,356 --> 00:27:09,516
Speaker 3: After that experien operience.

512
00:27:10,396 --> 00:27:13,116
Speaker 2: How do you now see your work in the way

513
00:27:13,196 --> 00:27:15,996
Speaker 2: it's received by others? Do you want to put addendums

514
00:27:15,996 --> 00:27:20,476
Speaker 2: that hey, this could change or has it fundamentally how

515
00:27:20,476 --> 00:27:22,236
Speaker 2: has it changed the way you approach your work?

516
00:27:22,636 --> 00:27:26,276
Speaker 1: Well, the over the course of my career, I think

517
00:27:26,316 --> 00:27:28,436
Speaker 1: one of the changes that I've made is I have

518
00:27:28,556 --> 00:27:30,876
Speaker 1: slowly come to the understanding that if you are going

519
00:27:30,956 --> 00:27:34,956
Speaker 1: to play this game with ideas, you have to not

520
00:27:35,036 --> 00:27:40,036
Speaker 1: temper your enthusiasm, but temper your certainty. You have to

521
00:27:40,036 --> 00:27:45,996
Speaker 1: make it clear that this is what we're talking about

522
00:27:46,116 --> 00:27:50,716
Speaker 1: right now, and that ideas, by their very nature are

523
00:27:50,716 --> 00:27:54,476
Speaker 1: based on evidence, and evidence changes, we learn more things.

524
00:27:54,796 --> 00:27:58,236
Speaker 1: Criminology is a great example. Criminology last twenty five years,

525
00:27:59,076 --> 00:28:02,516
Speaker 1: the feel of criminology has, I mean, so much has happened,

526
00:28:02,516 --> 00:28:05,476
Speaker 1: We know so much more. I mean, we were in

527
00:28:05,676 --> 00:28:11,756
Speaker 1: retrospect primitives in two thousand. We know like that one

528
00:28:11,836 --> 00:28:14,596
Speaker 1: hundred years of advances and understanding have happened in the

529
00:28:14,676 --> 00:28:17,356
Speaker 1: last twenty five years. So we need to be remind

530
00:28:17,436 --> 00:28:21,956
Speaker 1: people this is a knowledge is a moving target, and

531
00:28:22,036 --> 00:28:24,196
Speaker 1: I think I need to do I've realized I need

532
00:28:24,196 --> 00:28:28,236
Speaker 1: to do a better job of communicating that just because

533
00:28:28,276 --> 00:28:31,116
Speaker 1: I'm saying this now doesn't mean it's going to be

534
00:28:31,236 --> 00:28:34,276
Speaker 1: I'm going to be saying the same thing a generation

535
00:28:34,396 --> 00:28:36,196
Speaker 1: now or five, or even next year.

536
00:28:36,476 --> 00:28:38,836
Speaker 2: By the way, by the way, hey, I've been caught

537
00:28:39,276 --> 00:28:42,836
Speaker 2: in comedy crime before as well. Yeah, as a drifting charlatan.

538
00:28:43,596 --> 00:28:46,916
Speaker 2: And I think the adjustment that I've made is you

539
00:28:47,036 --> 00:28:48,236
Speaker 2: have to lead with.

540
00:28:49,636 --> 00:28:50,156
Speaker 3: I don't know.

541
00:28:51,276 --> 00:28:53,676
Speaker 2: That's what I make it very clear on our little

542
00:28:53,676 --> 00:28:56,796
Speaker 2: microphones here, just in case if anyone is using micro

543
00:28:56,836 --> 00:28:59,836
Speaker 2: content as a way or vessel to truth, I just

544
00:28:59,836 --> 00:29:01,036
Speaker 2: want to make it very clear that the title of

545
00:29:01,036 --> 00:29:02,276
Speaker 2: the show is awesome MANAJ doesn't know.

546
00:29:02,756 --> 00:29:04,636
Speaker 1: Don't get me started on what happened to you, which

547
00:29:04,676 --> 00:29:05,556
Speaker 1: I'm still angry about.

548
00:29:05,676 --> 00:29:06,716
Speaker 3: No, don't.

549
00:29:06,996 --> 00:29:11,996
Speaker 1: Nothing is more tiresome than people who fact check stories.

550
00:29:12,116 --> 00:29:14,756
Speaker 1: These are not like you weren't writing a history of

551
00:29:14,796 --> 00:29:17,156
Speaker 1: your life that was going to be published by Harvard

552
00:29:17,236 --> 00:29:18,036
Speaker 1: University Press.

553
00:29:18,116 --> 00:29:20,276
Speaker 3: I was condensing many stories into seventy minutes.

554
00:29:20,476 --> 00:29:23,556
Speaker 1: That's you're a performer, forgetness sake, do we forget what

555
00:29:23,636 --> 00:29:28,716
Speaker 1: a performer is like. Part of what's funny about comedians,

556
00:29:29,036 --> 00:29:32,196
Speaker 1: like the universe of good comedians, is that when we

557
00:29:32,276 --> 00:29:35,996
Speaker 1: are listening to you, the thing that's that draws us

558
00:29:35,996 --> 00:29:39,516
Speaker 1: to you is is the idea that you guys have

559
00:29:39,596 --> 00:29:43,476
Speaker 1: a distorted lens like It's that's what we don't have.

560
00:29:43,556 --> 00:29:46,076
Speaker 1: We don't have a distorted lens. We don't see the

561
00:29:46,076 --> 00:29:49,076
Speaker 1: comic possibilities in looking at the world from a slightly

562
00:29:49,076 --> 00:29:53,716
Speaker 1: different angle. And the delight we get from listening is, Oh,

563
00:29:54,116 --> 00:29:57,196
Speaker 1: that person's not looking at something straight on. They have

564
00:29:57,276 --> 00:30:04,556
Speaker 1: this completely you know this surprising wacko. Never would have

565
00:30:04,556 --> 00:30:07,156
Speaker 1: thought about it in a million years perspective. That's the punchline.

566
00:30:07,156 --> 00:30:10,116
Speaker 1: That's what a punchline is, sure right. So like to

567
00:30:10,156 --> 00:30:12,876
Speaker 1: sit to fact check a story like that is to

568
00:30:12,996 --> 00:30:16,356
Speaker 1: essentially undermine the very basis of what we want in

569
00:30:16,436 --> 00:30:19,396
Speaker 1: a comedian. And if you're getting your history from a

570
00:30:19,636 --> 00:30:24,036
Speaker 1: from a from a comics routine, then you're so intellectually impoverished.

571
00:30:24,076 --> 00:30:24,756
Speaker 1: I have no time for you.

572
00:30:24,836 --> 00:30:26,716
Speaker 2: Welcome, don't do this already put out I put out

573
00:30:26,716 --> 00:30:28,116
Speaker 2: a twenty three minute YouTube video about this.

574
00:30:28,156 --> 00:30:30,036
Speaker 3: You can see it in the way below. But it's fine.

575
00:30:30,076 --> 00:30:32,956
Speaker 1: It drives me crazy.

576
00:30:33,036 --> 00:30:35,876
Speaker 2: So Malcolm, it's okay. I'm a race baiting Britain Charlatan.

577
00:30:35,956 --> 00:30:36,836
Speaker 2: It's okay.

578
00:30:37,316 --> 00:30:38,476
Speaker 3: Meanwhile, you can you can.

579
00:30:38,396 --> 00:30:39,956
Speaker 2: And then you can make funny You can make funny

580
00:30:39,996 --> 00:30:41,156
Speaker 2: jokes about it, and then you can sell out.

581
00:30:41,076 --> 00:30:43,756
Speaker 1: Any other people for who this stuff does matter get

582
00:30:43,756 --> 00:30:48,276
Speaker 1: a pass, okay, Right, the politicians who are telling bullshit stories,

583
00:30:48,476 --> 00:30:51,716
Speaker 1: they're not comedians, right. I didn't vote for you to

584
00:30:51,716 --> 00:30:54,116
Speaker 1: look at the world from a forty five degree angles.

585
00:30:54,116 --> 00:30:56,556
Speaker 3: Okay, Malcolm, you can put in comedy jail.

586
00:30:56,556 --> 00:30:59,396
Speaker 1: It's fine. I guess that my sentence about this. I

587
00:30:59,436 --> 00:31:02,636
Speaker 1: do not want my comics to be like dryly relating

588
00:31:02,636 --> 00:31:03,396
Speaker 1: the facts of the day.

589
00:31:03,476 --> 00:31:04,756
Speaker 3: Okay, understood.

590
00:31:05,676 --> 00:31:07,956
Speaker 2: You want your comics spicy, You want your comics line

591
00:31:07,996 --> 00:31:09,716
Speaker 2: to you, and that's okay. You know I got to

592
00:31:09,716 --> 00:31:13,996
Speaker 2: give it to you, though, But again, you and I

593
00:31:14,076 --> 00:31:17,436
Speaker 2: we love a hot take literally in your in you

594
00:31:17,436 --> 00:31:20,196
Speaker 2: know you have revenge of the tipping point and then

595
00:31:20,236 --> 00:31:22,436
Speaker 2: CBS Sunday Morning does a story on you.

596
00:31:22,716 --> 00:31:24,956
Speaker 3: And you've got even more spicy takes. Let's take a look.

597
00:31:25,156 --> 00:31:28,436
Speaker 1: You should never go to the best institution you get into.

598
00:31:28,676 --> 00:31:30,716
Speaker 1: If you want to get a science and math degree,

599
00:31:30,836 --> 00:31:31,796
Speaker 1: don't go to Harvard.

600
00:31:31,996 --> 00:31:32,516
Speaker 3: This is nuts.

601
00:31:32,996 --> 00:31:36,916
Speaker 1: Well, no, that's part of a complicated argument from my

602
00:31:37,036 --> 00:31:39,996
Speaker 1: book David and Glythe which just says you should never

603
00:31:40,676 --> 00:31:44,516
Speaker 1: if you're interested in succeeding in an educational institution, you

604
00:31:44,596 --> 00:31:48,636
Speaker 1: never want to be in the bottom half of your class.

605
00:31:48,876 --> 00:31:52,276
Speaker 1: It's too hard, So you should go to Harvard. If

606
00:31:52,276 --> 00:31:54,836
Speaker 1: you think you can be in the top quarter of

607
00:31:54,836 --> 00:31:57,236
Speaker 1: your class at Harvard, that's fine, but don't go there.

608
00:31:57,276 --> 00:31:58,556
Speaker 1: If you're going to be the bottom of a class,

609
00:31:58,636 --> 00:32:02,396
Speaker 1: no doing stem. You're just going to drop out. You

610
00:32:02,436 --> 00:32:03,476
Speaker 1: just get it. Now.

611
00:32:03,516 --> 00:32:05,236
Speaker 2: You're triggering me because I was pre mad and I

612
00:32:05,276 --> 00:32:06,556
Speaker 2: was in the bottom third of my class. They did

613
00:32:06,596 --> 00:32:08,076
Speaker 2: the whole thing. Look to your right, look to your left.

614
00:32:08,116 --> 00:32:09,036
Speaker 2: Two of you won't make it.

615
00:32:09,156 --> 00:32:10,596
Speaker 1: You were one of those, was one of the two.

616
00:32:10,676 --> 00:32:12,396
Speaker 2: Yeah, and we don't have to get into this because

617
00:32:12,476 --> 00:32:14,676
Speaker 2: you're triggering me. But let me just say, Malcolm, if

618
00:32:14,716 --> 00:32:16,276
Speaker 2: you do get into Harvard, you gotta go to Harvard.

619
00:32:16,916 --> 00:32:17,476
Speaker 3: You have to.

620
00:32:17,716 --> 00:32:22,116
Speaker 1: You know, if my daughters knock on Wood get into

621
00:32:22,116 --> 00:32:24,236
Speaker 1: Harvard and I don't think they're going to be in

622
00:32:24,236 --> 00:32:26,076
Speaker 1: the top third of their class, I'm gonna say, don't go.

623
00:32:26,556 --> 00:32:29,036
Speaker 1: It's too hard. It's crazy hard. Do you know how

624
00:32:29,076 --> 00:32:31,556
Speaker 1: smart those kids are? I know people who went to

625
00:32:31,676 --> 00:32:37,236
Speaker 1: like elite public high schools, like you know Stuyvesant in

626
00:32:37,236 --> 00:32:39,876
Speaker 1: New York. Yeah, and everyone in Stuvesant basically has an

627
00:32:39,876 --> 00:32:43,716
Speaker 1: IQ one hundred and eighty. So the dumbest person in

628
00:32:43,756 --> 00:32:46,116
Speaker 1: a math class in Stuyvesant can have an IQ of

629
00:32:46,116 --> 00:32:50,436
Speaker 1: one hundred and whatever seventy. So they think they're dumb

630
00:32:50,516 --> 00:32:53,396
Speaker 1: because you measure your that's how you measure your intelligence

631
00:32:53,436 --> 00:32:55,956
Speaker 1: by looking around the room. They're not dumb. They're in

632
00:32:55,996 --> 00:32:59,436
Speaker 1: the top ninety nine point nine nine nine percent of humanity.

633
00:32:59,596 --> 00:33:01,476
Speaker 1: But they are misled by the fact that they happen

634
00:33:01,556 --> 00:33:04,796
Speaker 1: to be in the most extraordinarily selective group of individuals

635
00:33:05,276 --> 00:33:10,116
Speaker 1: in the city of New York. Don't do that to yourself, or.

636
00:33:10,076 --> 00:33:12,956
Speaker 2: You should, because I'll tell you why both Ted Cruise.

637
00:33:13,036 --> 00:33:15,956
Speaker 2: Ted Cruse went to Harvard and then Donald Trump went

638
00:33:15,956 --> 00:33:19,476
Speaker 2: to Penn. So my point is is that there are

639
00:33:19,516 --> 00:33:22,796
Speaker 2: idiots that go to these institutions and if they can

640
00:33:22,836 --> 00:33:25,436
Speaker 2: spin it into a win, so can you. If you

641
00:33:25,476 --> 00:33:28,516
Speaker 2: get into Harvard, go take your shot of going to

642
00:33:28,516 --> 00:33:30,676
Speaker 2: the league, if you get drafted, if David Starting gives

643
00:33:30,676 --> 00:33:33,196
Speaker 2: you the call. I went to UC Davis, unfortunately. And

644
00:33:33,276 --> 00:33:35,236
Speaker 2: the crazy part is I got into UCLA, but I

645
00:33:35,236 --> 00:33:36,916
Speaker 2: didn't go I went to Davis instead.

646
00:33:36,996 --> 00:33:39,316
Speaker 3: This is a longer story for another time. I got scared.

647
00:33:40,916 --> 00:33:43,276
Speaker 1: Your family's from Sacramento.

648
00:33:42,596 --> 00:33:44,796
Speaker 3: With it, Sacramento Davis. I grew up in Davis and

649
00:33:44,836 --> 00:33:45,716
Speaker 3: I went to UC Davis.

650
00:33:45,876 --> 00:33:46,916
Speaker 1: You got you do want to go to you?

651
00:33:47,116 --> 00:33:49,436
Speaker 2: I met I met my wife there and so so

652
00:33:49,476 --> 00:33:51,756
Speaker 2: it was the biggest bles all and it was wonderful.

653
00:33:51,836 --> 00:33:55,156
Speaker 1: But you see Subercamp, It's.

654
00:33:54,996 --> 00:33:57,196
Speaker 3: Like, Malcolm, I get it.

655
00:33:57,316 --> 00:33:58,116
Speaker 1: What were you doing?

656
00:33:58,276 --> 00:34:00,396
Speaker 3: I know, I know, I got I got shook, I

657
00:34:00,396 --> 00:34:04,996
Speaker 3: got shund That is madness that I didn't go to UCLA. Yeah,

658
00:34:05,076 --> 00:34:06,556
Speaker 3: I know, I know. It is a regret.

659
00:34:06,676 --> 00:34:08,436
Speaker 1: Were you like an agg major? Like what were you is?

660
00:34:08,516 --> 00:34:09,516
Speaker 3: This is a pre major?

661
00:34:09,676 --> 00:34:12,996
Speaker 2: And I ran into somebody when I did my campus

662
00:34:13,116 --> 00:34:16,156
Speaker 2: visit that said, hey, stem at UCLA is really hard.

663
00:34:16,196 --> 00:34:17,036
Speaker 3: You shouldn't go here.

664
00:34:17,196 --> 00:34:19,036
Speaker 1: Oh, I see, so you're thinking, and.

665
00:34:18,916 --> 00:34:21,396
Speaker 2: That's what got me to not go. Now, look again,

666
00:34:21,436 --> 00:34:23,236
Speaker 2: I met the love of my life, the mother of

667
00:34:23,276 --> 00:34:24,156
Speaker 2: my children.

668
00:34:23,796 --> 00:34:26,676
Speaker 3: At UC Davis. Let's take that reality to the side.

669
00:34:26,916 --> 00:34:30,276
Speaker 2: Everything else. UCLA the wooden center of the history Kareem

670
00:34:30,276 --> 00:34:31,276
Speaker 2: abdul Jabbar.

671
00:34:31,436 --> 00:34:34,716
Speaker 3: And you're in the middle of last would I should

672
00:34:34,756 --> 00:34:35,196
Speaker 3: have gone?

673
00:34:35,316 --> 00:34:38,796
Speaker 2: And so, Malcolm, if you get a call from Adam

674
00:34:38,836 --> 00:34:40,716
Speaker 2: Silver that says we're calling you up to be one

675
00:34:40,716 --> 00:34:42,556
Speaker 2: of the four hundred players to play in the league,

676
00:34:42,796 --> 00:34:44,596
Speaker 2: you got to go to the league. And if you

677
00:34:44,636 --> 00:34:46,636
Speaker 2: can't cut it, fine, but you got to go to

678
00:34:46,676 --> 00:34:48,716
Speaker 2: the l Let's look at another one of your crazy,

679
00:34:48,756 --> 00:34:51,236
Speaker 2: spicy takes that I don't know how you thought this

680
00:34:51,436 --> 00:34:51,836
Speaker 2: was cool.

681
00:34:52,116 --> 00:34:52,916
Speaker 3: Let's take a look.

682
00:34:53,156 --> 00:34:55,676
Speaker 1: It's not in your best interest to work at home.

683
00:34:56,036 --> 00:34:58,396
Speaker 1: I know it's a hassle come to the office. But

684
00:34:58,516 --> 00:35:01,476
Speaker 1: like you know, if you work, if you're just sitting

685
00:35:01,476 --> 00:35:04,516
Speaker 1: in your pajamas in your bedroom, is that the work

686
00:35:04,556 --> 00:35:05,436
Speaker 1: life you want to live?

687
00:35:05,756 --> 00:35:07,516
Speaker 3: Is that the work life I want? Answer?

688
00:35:07,796 --> 00:35:11,636
Speaker 1: Yes, so much trouble for that. I'll never leave that

689
00:35:11,676 --> 00:35:13,956
Speaker 1: one down. I can't believe you dredge that one up.

690
00:35:14,036 --> 00:35:17,236
Speaker 3: It's one of the top videos of you, Malcolm, What

691
00:35:17,276 --> 00:35:19,716
Speaker 3: am I wearing? You're wearing like a great tea shirt.

692
00:35:19,796 --> 00:35:21,596
Speaker 2: So the irony here is that you're telling people to

693
00:35:21,636 --> 00:35:24,236
Speaker 2: not be bums being their pajamas and work at home,

694
00:35:24,276 --> 00:35:26,236
Speaker 2: and you're wearing a goddamn Haines tea Here.

695
00:35:26,476 --> 00:35:28,836
Speaker 1: Here's what I should have said. I should have said

696
00:35:28,836 --> 00:35:35,596
Speaker 1: two things, No, one thing. It depends who you are.

697
00:35:36,316 --> 00:35:39,156
Speaker 1: If you're twenty five and you're trying to entering a

698
00:35:39,156 --> 00:35:42,636
Speaker 1: new field and trying to master it, you shouldn't be

699
00:35:42,676 --> 00:35:45,356
Speaker 1: at home. You got to go to the office because

700
00:35:45,436 --> 00:35:48,396
Speaker 1: you got to learn from other people. And it's way, way, way,

701
00:35:48,436 --> 00:35:50,596
Speaker 1: way easier to learn from other people when you can

702
00:35:50,596 --> 00:35:54,316
Speaker 1: see them face to face. If you're fifty and you

703
00:35:54,396 --> 00:35:56,636
Speaker 1: got three kids at home, and you've got an hour

704
00:35:56,676 --> 00:35:58,196
Speaker 1: and a half commute, and you're really good at your

705
00:35:58,236 --> 00:36:01,356
Speaker 1: job and experienced, why are you coming in that makes

706
00:36:01,356 --> 00:36:03,716
Speaker 1: any sense? You can be way more productive at home.

707
00:36:03,876 --> 00:36:06,356
Speaker 1: Depends who you are. What I was reacting to, I

708
00:36:06,356 --> 00:36:09,556
Speaker 1: think in that was this widespread belief that every is

709
00:36:09,556 --> 00:36:11,996
Speaker 1: better off just working from home. I don't think that's true.

710
00:36:12,236 --> 00:36:14,756
Speaker 1: I do think if I had worked from home in

711
00:36:14,796 --> 00:36:17,876
Speaker 1: my twenties, I would not be here. You would never

712
00:36:17,916 --> 00:36:18,876
Speaker 1: have heard of Malcolm Level.

713
00:36:19,356 --> 00:36:21,876
Speaker 2: Here's my subway take. I'm kareem now I have one

714
00:36:21,996 --> 00:36:24,196
Speaker 2: hundred percent disagree. I'm not here to tell anybody how

715
00:36:24,236 --> 00:36:25,476
Speaker 2: they should live their life. I used to work at

716
00:36:25,516 --> 00:36:27,156
Speaker 2: Office Max for many years. I'm not trying to brag,

717
00:36:27,196 --> 00:36:30,436
Speaker 2: but I wasn't a great employee, and I truly did

718
00:36:30,436 --> 00:36:32,476
Speaker 2: not care because my first name isn't Office and my

719
00:36:32,556 --> 00:36:36,396
Speaker 2: last name isn't Max. Whatever you can to do, you

720
00:36:37,436 --> 00:36:40,516
Speaker 2: protect your own, get the bag and take care of

721
00:36:40,516 --> 00:36:41,676
Speaker 2: your family, do your thing.

722
00:36:42,156 --> 00:36:45,356
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, that yours is a bunch more evolved position

723
00:36:45,436 --> 00:36:50,116
Speaker 1: than mine, but I do. I was simply trying to

724
00:36:50,236 --> 00:36:54,516
Speaker 1: explain if you've never if you're young and you're trying to,

725
00:36:54,716 --> 00:36:58,356
Speaker 1: like I said, master something complicated, it can be hard

726
00:36:58,356 --> 00:37:03,236
Speaker 1: to understand how much richer the learning experience is when

727
00:37:03,276 --> 00:37:07,116
Speaker 1: it's in a social setting, right, that's all, if you're

728
00:37:07,156 --> 00:37:08,756
Speaker 1: trying to be a journalist. So when I started out

729
00:37:08,756 --> 00:37:10,836
Speaker 1: in journal I got a job at the age of

730
00:37:10,836 --> 00:37:14,236
Speaker 1: twenty three at the Washington Post, and I was within

731
00:37:14,356 --> 00:37:18,356
Speaker 1: ten feet of four or five of the greatest journalists

732
00:37:18,396 --> 00:37:21,796
Speaker 1: of my generation. And I didn't know any about journalism.

733
00:37:21,996 --> 00:37:23,876
Speaker 3: And I whorr you around? I mean, man, I.

734
00:37:23,796 --> 00:37:27,556
Speaker 1: Mean, among others, Bob Woodward was greatest investigative reporter of

735
00:37:27,596 --> 00:37:30,396
Speaker 1: the twentieth century. Was as far away from me as

736
00:37:30,436 --> 00:37:32,796
Speaker 1: you aren't. There was just a serious a guy named

737
00:37:34,116 --> 00:37:36,796
Speaker 1: Steve call who was like a legend. There was a

738
00:37:36,836 --> 00:37:39,796
Speaker 1: guy next to me called Mike Kisikoff who was another legend.

739
00:37:40,556 --> 00:37:45,116
Speaker 1: And I spent like six months, my first six months,

740
00:37:45,396 --> 00:37:48,556
Speaker 1: almost doing nothing but sitting there and just eavesdropping and

741
00:37:48,676 --> 00:37:51,996
Speaker 1: like it was a masterclass all these things that I

742
00:37:52,036 --> 00:37:54,476
Speaker 1: didn't know. Idea, how to ask a question, how to

743
00:37:54,556 --> 00:37:57,756
Speaker 1: get how to interview someone who didn't want to be interviewed,

744
00:37:58,116 --> 00:38:02,076
Speaker 1: how to frame idea, how to extreme I could go

745
00:38:02,156 --> 00:38:03,756
Speaker 1: on and on and on, how to process things on

746
00:38:03,796 --> 00:38:06,316
Speaker 1: the fly, how to write. I just watched them.

747
00:38:06,356 --> 00:38:08,116
Speaker 3: You picked up a ton of game from these people

748
00:38:08,476 --> 00:38:08,996
Speaker 3: in person.

749
00:38:09,356 --> 00:38:12,756
Speaker 1: And No, by the way, no athlete would ever say

750
00:38:13,196 --> 00:38:17,436
Speaker 1: you can master a sport by yourself. Every would They

751
00:38:17,436 --> 00:38:20,876
Speaker 1: would never say, oh, I got drafted by the Nickson.

752
00:38:21,116 --> 00:38:23,036
Speaker 1: Here's what I'm going to do to work from home

753
00:38:23,116 --> 00:38:26,796
Speaker 1: over the off season. No, they would never say that. Like, no,

754
00:38:27,636 --> 00:38:33,236
Speaker 1: if Lebron wants to spend the off season by himself. Absolutely,

755
00:38:33,396 --> 00:38:36,076
Speaker 1: he's the top of this game. But if you're a rookie,

756
00:38:36,556 --> 00:38:39,636
Speaker 1: if you're nineteen and you just got drafted out of wherever,

757
00:38:40,436 --> 00:38:43,676
Speaker 1: Kansas State, No, you show up with your peers and

758
00:38:43,756 --> 00:38:45,396
Speaker 1: learn from them. That's what That's all I was saying.

759
00:38:45,436 --> 00:38:47,276
Speaker 1: I don't think that's a I do not think that

760
00:38:47,356 --> 00:38:52,036
Speaker 1: it's a controversial take. And I was speaking from my

761
00:38:52,076 --> 00:38:55,796
Speaker 1: own personal experience because I had become aware, acutely aware,

762
00:38:55,836 --> 00:38:59,916
Speaker 1: in later life just how much I learned in those

763
00:38:59,956 --> 00:39:01,036
Speaker 1: early years in journalists.

764
00:39:01,036 --> 00:39:02,836
Speaker 2: You know, Malcolm, you were able to pick up game

765
00:39:02,876 --> 00:39:05,476
Speaker 2: from some legends at some great institutions.

766
00:39:05,596 --> 00:39:08,156
Speaker 3: But a lot of people who have jobs.

767
00:39:09,276 --> 00:39:12,436
Speaker 2: Their coworkers are a bunch of bums, and so they

768
00:39:12,516 --> 00:39:17,156
Speaker 2: just want to say, peace out, Carl, Yeah, I'm going home.

769
00:39:17,196 --> 00:39:19,116
Speaker 1: I don't know. You're more of a cynic than me

770
00:39:19,156 --> 00:39:22,956
Speaker 1: on this. I actually think that if you're if you

771
00:39:22,956 --> 00:39:26,436
Speaker 1: are motivated, you can always find in any setting somebody

772
00:39:26,516 --> 00:39:30,036
Speaker 1: from whom you can learn. And that's part of That's

773
00:39:30,076 --> 00:39:34,436
Speaker 1: another thing that is useful about going in your early years,

774
00:39:34,476 --> 00:39:38,756
Speaker 1: in going to the immersing yourself is making those kinds

775
00:39:38,756 --> 00:39:42,596
Speaker 1: of social calls, right, there's ten people around here, who's

776
00:39:42,636 --> 00:39:44,876
Speaker 1: the one that matters and that I should be attaching

777
00:39:44,956 --> 00:39:47,716
Speaker 1: myself and learning from. That's a really, really important skill

778
00:39:48,036 --> 00:39:49,316
Speaker 1: that you can't learn by yourself.

779
00:39:49,556 --> 00:39:53,116
Speaker 2: We've had an amazing conversation, but we haven't even gotten

780
00:39:53,156 --> 00:39:55,396
Speaker 2: to I think one of your best pieces of work.

781
00:39:55,516 --> 00:39:58,396
Speaker 2: I'm talking about the podcast revision Is History. Yeah, Season eleven,

782
00:39:58,436 --> 00:40:04,356
Speaker 2: Ladies and Gentlemen. Season eleven of Revisionist History is about

783
00:40:04,476 --> 00:40:08,756
Speaker 2: the Alabama murders. Now that's the title of it, But

784
00:40:08,876 --> 00:40:11,996
Speaker 2: give give me the details of what launched this story

785
00:40:12,436 --> 00:40:15,916
Speaker 2: about this particular situation in Alabama.

786
00:40:16,276 --> 00:40:19,476
Speaker 1: A friend of myn named Stephen I was talking to

787
00:40:19,556 --> 00:40:20,916
Speaker 1: about a year and a half ago when he goes,

788
00:40:21,356 --> 00:40:24,636
Speaker 1: I have a friend named Kate who has the most

789
00:40:24,636 --> 00:40:27,916
Speaker 1: interesting job in America. You should talk to her. I

790
00:40:27,956 --> 00:40:31,436
Speaker 1: was like, okay, And I did this thing which I've

791
00:40:31,436 --> 00:40:33,316
Speaker 1: started to do more and more and more, where I

792
00:40:33,356 --> 00:40:36,716
Speaker 1: find someone interesting and I just sit down with them

793
00:40:36,756 --> 00:40:39,356
Speaker 1: for as many hours as they can tolerate and just

794
00:40:39,396 --> 00:40:42,916
Speaker 1: talk to them with no agenda. So Kate was someone.

795
00:40:43,396 --> 00:40:47,996
Speaker 1: Kate Porterfield was this really extraordinary woman whose job it

796
00:40:48,196 --> 00:40:52,916
Speaker 1: was She's a trauma expert, and she started out by

797
00:40:52,916 --> 00:40:56,396
Speaker 1: treating people who've been started working at the Torture Clinic

798
00:40:56,476 --> 00:40:59,316
Speaker 1: of Bellevue, treating people who've been tortured around the world.

799
00:40:59,556 --> 00:41:02,716
Speaker 1: I'm this world renowned torture clinic there. Then she went

800
00:41:02,756 --> 00:41:04,396
Speaker 1: on and she spent a lot of time on Goodtnama

801
00:41:04,476 --> 00:41:06,676
Speaker 1: Bay working with people who've been tortured by the CIA.

802
00:41:07,476 --> 00:41:11,316
Speaker 1: And then she got involved in criminal cases, capital cases

803
00:41:11,716 --> 00:41:14,916
Speaker 1: where she was brought in by usually by the defense

804
00:41:15,916 --> 00:41:21,236
Speaker 1: in a death penalty case to try and understand the

805
00:41:22,356 --> 00:41:28,116
Speaker 1: life and the trauma of the convicted killer. Right and

806
00:41:28,196 --> 00:41:30,676
Speaker 1: so incredibly interesting. So I sat down with her. We

807
00:41:30,756 --> 00:41:34,676
Speaker 1: met five times, each time for about three hours, and

808
00:41:34,916 --> 00:41:40,516
Speaker 1: in the fourth time, fourth visit, fourth session, she started

809
00:41:40,516 --> 00:41:42,716
Speaker 1: talking about a case she had just finished working on

810
00:41:42,916 --> 00:41:48,116
Speaker 1: by a guy named Kenny Smith, and I was just floored.

811
00:41:48,156 --> 00:41:51,116
Speaker 1: I was like, Oh, my god, that's what I want.

812
00:41:51,476 --> 00:41:56,596
Speaker 1: So in our like twenty I was like, Oh, that's

813
00:41:56,636 --> 00:41:57,556
Speaker 1: what I want to talk about.

814
00:41:57,676 --> 00:41:57,996
Speaker 3: Yes.

815
00:41:58,236 --> 00:42:03,076
Speaker 1: Kenny Smith was a guy from Florence, Alabama, in the

816
00:42:03,116 --> 00:42:06,436
Speaker 1: north western corner of the state, who had been convicted

817
00:42:06,476 --> 00:42:11,396
Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty eight of murdering the wife of a preacher,

818
00:42:12,476 --> 00:42:15,516
Speaker 1: and it was a murder for hire. And I'd been

819
00:42:15,556 --> 00:42:18,716
Speaker 1: sentenced to to death by in a state of Alabama,

820
00:42:18,716 --> 00:42:21,596
Speaker 1: and I'd been living on death row for forty eight years.

821
00:42:23,196 --> 00:42:26,396
Speaker 1: And she got involved in that case as just as

822
00:42:26,476 --> 00:42:30,076
Speaker 1: Kenny was about to be executed, and so I just said, oh,

823
00:42:30,156 --> 00:42:32,316
Speaker 1: I wonder to tell that story. And it is the

824
00:42:32,316 --> 00:42:35,236
Speaker 1: most I think it's the best thing I've ever done.

825
00:42:36,196 --> 00:42:39,596
Speaker 1: It was the most emotionally powerful thing I've ever done.

826
00:42:39,756 --> 00:42:44,876
Speaker 1: We ended up doing seven episodes, We ended up expanding it,

827
00:42:45,036 --> 00:42:47,956
Speaker 1: so Kate, who plays a central role in the story,

828
00:42:48,196 --> 00:42:51,156
Speaker 1: doesn't even appear until episode five or six.

829
00:42:51,196 --> 00:42:51,516
Speaker 3: Isn't it.

830
00:42:51,436 --> 00:42:53,756
Speaker 2: It was two men that were two men, Yeah, another

831
00:42:53,796 --> 00:42:55,556
Speaker 2: guys as well. So the whole premise of this thing

832
00:42:55,636 --> 00:42:57,796
Speaker 2: is so interesting. It almost sounds like a prestige show

833
00:42:57,836 --> 00:43:01,996
Speaker 2: for FX, which is there's a wife, there's a husband,

834
00:43:02,276 --> 00:43:08,636
Speaker 2: there's a murder for hire. The men assault and beats

835
00:43:08,676 --> 00:43:10,916
Speaker 2: said wife, but then the husband kills the wife.

836
00:43:11,036 --> 00:43:13,596
Speaker 3: We think, we think yeah, And then.

837
00:43:13,516 --> 00:43:17,156
Speaker 2: It's specifically about the two men that were part of

838
00:43:17,196 --> 00:43:21,636
Speaker 2: this murder for hire that are then given the death sentence.

839
00:43:22,396 --> 00:43:25,116
Speaker 2: And what's really fascinating about it is you think this

840
00:43:25,196 --> 00:43:29,316
Speaker 2: is almost like true crime, but it's actually an analysis

841
00:43:29,396 --> 00:43:31,756
Speaker 2: about how crazy Alabama judges are.

842
00:43:32,316 --> 00:43:33,396
Speaker 3: Why are they so crazy?

843
00:43:34,196 --> 00:43:37,076
Speaker 1: Well, why is Alabama crazy? I mean, Alabama is the

844
00:43:37,076 --> 00:43:38,276
Speaker 1: weirdest stay in the Union.

845
00:43:38,396 --> 00:43:39,516
Speaker 3: I think that's.

846
00:43:39,316 --> 00:43:43,876
Speaker 1: Beyond dispute, also one of the most fascinating. I mean

847
00:43:43,916 --> 00:43:46,956
Speaker 1: I say that I actually love Alabama. I go there.

848
00:43:47,196 --> 00:43:48,956
Speaker 1: I've done so many stories there. I go there all

849
00:43:48,996 --> 00:43:52,636
Speaker 1: the time. I find it absolutely riveting place. The great

850
00:43:53,796 --> 00:43:56,476
Speaker 1: curse of the United States is of course, to the

851
00:43:56,556 --> 00:44:03,196
Speaker 1: legacy of slavery, which has persisted. That curse has lingered

852
00:44:03,236 --> 00:44:06,276
Speaker 1: longer in some parts of the country than others, and

853
00:44:06,356 --> 00:44:13,556
Speaker 1: Alabama is a place that is still kind of struggling

854
00:44:14,556 --> 00:44:17,396
Speaker 1: under the weight of that legacy. Now, this case involves

855
00:44:17,516 --> 00:44:19,996
Speaker 1: everyone's white and in this case, so it's not explicitly

856
00:44:20,036 --> 00:44:22,956
Speaker 1: about the relationship being black and white people. But what

857
00:44:22,996 --> 00:44:30,316
Speaker 1: we're describing is a brutal and unfeeling system of punishment

858
00:44:30,676 --> 00:44:33,756
Speaker 1: that arises in response to the kind of racial realities

859
00:44:33,796 --> 00:44:37,516
Speaker 1: of the state. So we have this what we're documenting

860
00:44:38,316 --> 00:44:50,716
Speaker 1: in this series is the unrelenting, tireless, relentless desire on

861
00:44:50,796 --> 00:44:53,476
Speaker 1: the part of the state of Alabama to find a

862
00:44:53,516 --> 00:44:56,276
Speaker 1: way to murder these two guys, to execute these two

863
00:44:56,316 --> 00:44:57,796
Speaker 1: convicted murderers.

864
00:44:57,836 --> 00:45:00,396
Speaker 2: What's so interesting about it is this is an analysis

865
00:45:00,476 --> 00:45:06,636
Speaker 2: on capital punishment. So the jury is actually against the

866
00:45:06,676 --> 00:45:09,596
Speaker 2: death sentence, the judge is for it. But just for

867
00:45:09,636 --> 00:45:16,556
Speaker 2: our audience before they dive into the season, can you

868
00:45:16,556 --> 00:45:20,276
Speaker 2: give me the history of capital punishment in America? What's

869
00:45:20,356 --> 00:45:22,396
Speaker 2: the history of capital punishment in the United States.

870
00:45:22,516 --> 00:45:28,636
Speaker 1: Yes, so it's compared to our Western European peers, America

871
00:45:28,796 --> 00:45:33,436
Speaker 1: was very slow to kind of dial back capital punishment.

872
00:45:33,476 --> 00:45:36,076
Speaker 1: It's a pretty big deal in this country up through

873
00:45:36,236 --> 00:45:41,156
Speaker 1: the seventies. And then the Supreme Court says, We've looked

874
00:45:41,156 --> 00:45:43,356
Speaker 1: at the way capital punishment is being used in the

875
00:45:43,516 --> 00:45:46,636
Speaker 1: States and we think it clearly shows signs of racial

876
00:45:46,636 --> 00:45:49,156
Speaker 1: bias and arbitrary in US. You know, you get two

877
00:45:49,196 --> 00:45:53,716
Speaker 1: people convicted of the same crime, one's getting executed one tonight.

878
00:45:53,796 --> 00:45:55,036
Speaker 1: You can't do that. You got to have some kind

879
00:45:55,036 --> 00:45:59,476
Speaker 1: of rigor. They put a pause on it on death pedally.

880
00:45:59,796 --> 00:46:02,476
Speaker 1: Public support for the death penalty plummets and people think

881
00:46:02,476 --> 00:46:07,116
Speaker 1: it's going away, and then it comes roaring back, not everywhere,

882
00:46:07,396 --> 00:46:12,396
Speaker 1: but particularly in the South. And one of the states

883
00:46:12,396 --> 00:46:14,996
Speaker 1: in which it comes running back is Alabama. And Alabama

884
00:46:15,036 --> 00:46:20,556
Speaker 1: does this thing to ensure that they will to retain

885
00:46:20,596 --> 00:46:23,316
Speaker 1: their right to execute whoever they choose. They give the

886
00:46:23,396 --> 00:46:27,676
Speaker 1: judges what are called what is called override. So the

887
00:46:27,716 --> 00:46:29,116
Speaker 1: only one of the state in the Union that does

888
00:46:29,156 --> 00:46:32,156
Speaker 1: any remotely like this. But in the state of Alabama,

889
00:46:32,156 --> 00:46:33,996
Speaker 1: if you are convicted of a crime and the jury

890
00:46:34,276 --> 00:46:38,436
Speaker 1: votes for life without parole and not the death penalty,

891
00:46:38,516 --> 00:46:42,036
Speaker 1: if the judge wants it's not been change but for

892
00:46:42,076 --> 00:46:45,476
Speaker 1: many years, if the judge wanted to, the judge could

893
00:46:45,556 --> 00:46:47,796
Speaker 1: override the jury and just say, I know you wanted

894
00:46:47,836 --> 00:46:49,956
Speaker 1: life without parole, but I think this person should be killed.

895
00:46:50,916 --> 00:46:52,956
Speaker 1: And which is like a really really weird thing where

896
00:46:52,996 --> 00:46:54,236
Speaker 1: they basically throw out.

897
00:46:55,036 --> 00:46:57,596
Speaker 2: A judge basically gets to have a super veto on

898
00:46:57,716 --> 00:47:01,076
Speaker 2: a jury, which is nuts nuts. But have two questions

899
00:47:01,076 --> 00:47:03,316
Speaker 2: follow up questions. The first is is that up until

900
00:47:03,316 --> 00:47:07,476
Speaker 2: the seventies they were like, no, we cannot kill people,

901
00:47:07,916 --> 00:47:09,836
Speaker 2: we are against the death penalty. What was it about

902
00:47:09,876 --> 00:47:11,316
Speaker 2: the Supreme Court that lifted that band?

903
00:47:11,556 --> 00:47:14,116
Speaker 1: So everyone's doing it. The Supreme Court says stop, and

904
00:47:14,156 --> 00:47:15,996
Speaker 1: then the sweep got comes back a couple of years

905
00:47:16,076 --> 00:47:19,036
Speaker 1: later and says, you can proceed so long as you

906
00:47:19,556 --> 00:47:23,116
Speaker 1: ensure they're speaking to the states that there's some rigord

907
00:47:23,116 --> 00:47:25,796
Speaker 1: of the process. You gonna have standards you have to say,

908
00:47:26,796 --> 00:47:28,436
Speaker 1: you know what.

909
00:47:28,436 --> 00:47:29,156
Speaker 3: Other standards here.

910
00:47:29,156 --> 00:47:31,836
Speaker 2: They're like, look, you can't the guillotines gotta go, we

911
00:47:31,876 --> 00:47:34,196
Speaker 2: can't have a firing squad. Some states, by the way,

912
00:47:34,236 --> 00:47:34,996
Speaker 2: have the firing squad.

913
00:47:35,076 --> 00:47:36,876
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, there's a big week. I didn't get into it,

914
00:47:36,876 --> 00:47:39,796
Speaker 1: but I interviewed all these people about you know, one

915
00:47:39,836 --> 00:47:42,596
Speaker 1: of the standards is the method of punishment must be

916
00:47:43,116 --> 00:47:46,236
Speaker 1: neither cruel nor unusual. And so you get into these

917
00:47:46,276 --> 00:47:50,716
Speaker 1: big definitional things. Is is lethal injection, for example, cruel

918
00:47:51,676 --> 00:47:53,996
Speaker 1: And there's a big argument that it is because you suffer.

919
00:47:54,036 --> 00:47:56,396
Speaker 1: Actually you think you're not suffering lethal injection, you are,

920
00:47:56,916 --> 00:48:00,876
Speaker 1: Then the electric chair was clearly cruel. You did suffer.

921
00:48:01,196 --> 00:48:02,836
Speaker 1: So there's a big argument. One of the reasons that

922
00:48:02,956 --> 00:48:05,836
Speaker 1: UTAH brings back the firing squad is that as an

923
00:48:05,876 --> 00:48:11,636
Speaker 1: argument that it's more humane than lethal injection. Actually, if

924
00:48:11,676 --> 00:48:15,796
Speaker 1: I had to be executed, I would choose the firing

925
00:48:15,836 --> 00:48:17,036
Speaker 1: squad over lethal injection.

926
00:48:17,196 --> 00:48:18,516
Speaker 3: It's that bad lethal injection.

927
00:48:18,596 --> 00:48:20,236
Speaker 1: Yeah, we talked about that in one of the episodes.

928
00:48:20,516 --> 00:48:23,036
Speaker 3: So take me through the mechanics of lethal injection. How

929
00:48:23,036 --> 00:48:23,596
Speaker 3: does it work?

930
00:48:23,716 --> 00:48:27,556
Speaker 1: It's three drugs. It was dreamt up by this doctor

931
00:48:27,596 --> 00:48:30,196
Speaker 1: in Oklahoma in the seventies on the back of an envelope.

932
00:48:30,636 --> 00:48:34,036
Speaker 1: It's never been subjected to any kind of scientific protocol

933
00:48:34,116 --> 00:48:37,396
Speaker 1: or medical analysis. Is the random dude in response to

934
00:48:37,436 --> 00:48:43,436
Speaker 1: a request from the Oklahoma state legislature which wanted to

935
00:48:43,476 --> 00:48:47,116
Speaker 1: start putting prisoners down the same way they put down horses.

936
00:48:48,396 --> 00:48:50,716
Speaker 1: And so the guy says, Okay, here's what you should do.

937
00:48:51,396 --> 00:48:57,276
Speaker 1: Give them a sedative like a barbituate, then hit them

938
00:48:57,316 --> 00:49:01,156
Speaker 1: with a paralytic that basically kind of freezes you. Yeah,

939
00:49:01,236 --> 00:49:04,396
Speaker 1: and then hit them with potassium chloride, which will stop

940
00:49:04,436 --> 00:49:08,276
Speaker 1: their heart. I think basically this position is that should work.

941
00:49:09,116 --> 00:49:10,316
Speaker 1: I was like, Okay, let's do that.

942
00:49:10,396 --> 00:49:12,476
Speaker 3: And Reagan, funny enough, was a big proponent of.

943
00:49:12,636 --> 00:49:16,316
Speaker 1: Reg's proponent of it, and so lethal injection which spreads

944
00:49:16,356 --> 00:49:20,356
Speaker 1: throughout America and then throughout the world. So you know

945
00:49:20,396 --> 00:49:24,436
Speaker 1: in many countries now that have euthanasia legalized euthanasia, they're

946
00:49:24,516 --> 00:49:27,356
Speaker 1: using the lethal injection protocol. Well, we have a whole

947
00:49:27,956 --> 00:49:32,836
Speaker 1: episode of the podcast where this really brilliant anaesesiologist from

948
00:49:32,916 --> 00:49:36,756
Speaker 1: Orlando named Joel Zivitt Barry does all these autopsies of

949
00:49:36,796 --> 00:49:39,156
Speaker 1: people who have been executed. He finds that their lungs

950
00:49:39,156 --> 00:49:44,796
Speaker 1: are filled with blood, frothy blood, and realizes what's happening

951
00:49:45,436 --> 00:49:47,796
Speaker 1: is that the barbituate that they get at the very

952
00:49:47,796 --> 00:49:51,636
Speaker 1: beginning is given in such a high dose that it's

953
00:49:51,716 --> 00:49:55,716
Speaker 1: turned their blood as acidic and it's burning up their lungs.

954
00:49:56,596 --> 00:50:00,316
Speaker 1: So what happens is your lungs are on fire, which is,

955
00:50:00,436 --> 00:50:03,516
Speaker 1: as you can imagine, quite painful because you've been giving

956
00:50:03,556 --> 00:50:06,116
Speaker 1: a paralytic you can't cry out in pain.

957
00:50:06,796 --> 00:50:08,396
Speaker 2: I mean, the way you describe it in the podcast

958
00:50:08,436 --> 00:50:11,156
Speaker 2: is horrifying. This is the poll quote. The last thing

959
00:50:11,196 --> 00:50:12,996
Speaker 2: that you may know is that you're on fire from

960
00:50:13,036 --> 00:50:16,036
Speaker 2: the inside and the blood is filling up your lungs

961
00:50:16,036 --> 00:50:16,556
Speaker 2: as you die.

962
00:50:17,156 --> 00:50:21,036
Speaker 1: It's nasty. The whole point of this is no one

963
00:50:21,076 --> 00:50:23,436
Speaker 1: who's involved in the death penalty game is even remotely

964
00:50:23,436 --> 00:50:26,356
Speaker 1: interested in trying to prove that this is a quote

965
00:50:26,436 --> 00:50:30,836
Speaker 1: unquote humane method of They don't you when Joel Zivitt

966
00:50:30,876 --> 00:50:33,196
Speaker 1: did the analysis of autopsies to figure out what was

967
00:50:33,236 --> 00:50:36,516
Speaker 1: going on with lethal injection. Lethal injection have been used

968
00:50:36,516 --> 00:50:40,076
Speaker 1: in American prisons for close to fifty years. So for

969
00:50:40,156 --> 00:50:42,236
Speaker 1: half a century we've been doing this, and no one

970
00:50:42,596 --> 00:50:46,876
Speaker 1: bothered in fifty years to ask the question of how

971
00:50:46,916 --> 00:50:51,036
Speaker 1: exactly lethal injection was doing its work. That's the level

972
00:50:51,076 --> 00:50:53,756
Speaker 1: of kind of moral callousness that we're talking about.

973
00:50:53,916 --> 00:50:55,716
Speaker 2: It just felt like it was common knowledge when Reagan

974
00:50:55,796 --> 00:50:57,716
Speaker 2: was like, look, they use it on horses, but now

975
00:50:57,916 --> 00:51:00,036
Speaker 2: horses are people, so it'll be the same.

976
00:51:02,116 --> 00:51:04,676
Speaker 1: Yeah, And we go into this in some detail, and

977
00:51:04,956 --> 00:51:07,556
Speaker 1: it's the most horrifying part of what is a very

978
00:51:07,596 --> 00:51:11,116
Speaker 1: long and horrifying story. It's just like nobody gives a shit.

979
00:51:11,556 --> 00:51:14,556
Speaker 2: Well, there's an interesting philosophical discussion to be had here

980
00:51:15,116 --> 00:51:17,596
Speaker 2: with I call them the revenge heads, the petty police.

981
00:51:17,636 --> 00:51:19,436
Speaker 3: There's two camps. There's one camp.

982
00:51:19,236 --> 00:51:21,716
Speaker 2: That's like, there has to be a more humane way

983
00:51:22,596 --> 00:51:26,476
Speaker 2: to have justice and to understand that you cannot just

984
00:51:26,556 --> 00:51:32,316
Speaker 2: kill human beings. Then there are people that are like good, yeah, good.

985
00:51:33,196 --> 00:51:33,916
Speaker 1: There's a lot of that.

986
00:51:34,036 --> 00:51:37,036
Speaker 3: No, but for real yeah good yeah.

987
00:51:37,116 --> 00:51:39,836
Speaker 1: There is that strong which I don't understand.

988
00:51:42,076 --> 00:51:43,396
Speaker 3: How do you react to that sentiment?

989
00:51:46,876 --> 00:51:53,836
Speaker 1: It seems peculiarly American, it seems peculiarly medieval. It's part

990
00:51:53,836 --> 00:51:55,916
Speaker 1: of this weird thing about this country. Which is that

991
00:51:55,956 --> 00:51:59,796
Speaker 1: we are simultaneously the most sophisticated country in the world

992
00:51:59,916 --> 00:52:03,996
Speaker 1: and also the least. The larger part of it about

993
00:52:03,996 --> 00:52:06,556
Speaker 1: this is that if you compare the US to say,

994
00:52:06,556 --> 00:52:12,836
Speaker 1: Western Europe or parts of South Asia East Asia, that

995
00:52:13,796 --> 00:52:19,276
Speaker 1: we're very interested in the severity of punishment and they're

996
00:52:19,476 --> 00:52:22,716
Speaker 1: interested in the certainty of punishment. So if you think

997
00:52:22,756 --> 00:52:29,636
Speaker 1: about deterrence, about the attempt to dissuade someone from committing

998
00:52:29,636 --> 00:52:32,996
Speaker 1: a crime, the certainty of punishment, how likely are you

999
00:52:33,036 --> 00:52:37,716
Speaker 1: to get caught, the severity of punishment, how much you'll

1000
00:52:37,716 --> 00:52:41,196
Speaker 1: suffer if once we catch you, and the celerity of punishment,

1001
00:52:41,196 --> 00:52:45,036
Speaker 1: how quickly it happens. In Europe, they are super focused

1002
00:52:45,076 --> 00:52:50,116
Speaker 1: on certainty. If you murder someone in Europe, it's almost

1003
00:52:50,116 --> 00:52:51,996
Speaker 1: one hundred percent certain you will get arrested or someone

1004
00:52:52,036 --> 00:52:55,316
Speaker 1: will get arrested for that. Homicide certainly super high, but

1005
00:52:55,356 --> 00:52:59,636
Speaker 1: they go really easy on severity. Prison sentences are fractions

1006
00:52:59,636 --> 00:53:02,116
Speaker 1: a long. Most people don't go to prison. We do

1007
00:53:02,196 --> 00:53:07,796
Speaker 1: the opposite. We have very low certainty the chances of

1008
00:53:07,836 --> 00:53:10,396
Speaker 1: getting arrested for homicide in this country, or less than

1009
00:53:10,436 --> 00:53:13,636
Speaker 1: fifty percent in parts in certain neighborhoods in this country.

1010
00:53:13,636 --> 00:53:16,316
Speaker 1: They're beholo on the South side of Chicago, it's like

1011
00:53:16,396 --> 00:53:20,196
Speaker 1: fifteen percent. But if you get caught, you will throw

1012
00:53:20,196 --> 00:53:23,276
Speaker 1: away the key. Right, So this is part of that

1013
00:53:23,316 --> 00:53:25,676
Speaker 1: same dynamic. We've decided we're going to put all of

1014
00:53:25,716 --> 00:53:29,676
Speaker 1: our eggs in the severity basket and make we want

1015
00:53:29,716 --> 00:53:32,956
Speaker 1: to make punishment as horrifying as it sounds to try

1016
00:53:32,956 --> 00:53:36,876
Speaker 1: and dissuade you from committing a crime. The Europeans said,

1017
00:53:37,476 --> 00:53:41,196
Speaker 1: that's don't put your emphasis there, put your emphasis on certainty.

1018
00:53:41,916 --> 00:53:44,956
Speaker 1: I happen to believe the European approach is far superior.

1019
00:53:45,676 --> 00:53:47,836
Speaker 2: Why do you think in America there is this obsession,

1020
00:53:48,356 --> 00:53:52,436
Speaker 2: particularly with the severity and the feeling of hey, look,

1021
00:53:52,436 --> 00:53:55,076
Speaker 2: if you kill these bad people. We're talking about criminals,

1022
00:53:55,116 --> 00:53:59,036
Speaker 2: we're talking about murderers. If you kill them, now you

1023
00:53:59,116 --> 00:54:02,796
Speaker 2: just have good people left. Yeah, that was kind of

1024
00:54:02,836 --> 00:54:04,636
Speaker 2: the conversation I had I had with different friends and

1025
00:54:04,756 --> 00:54:07,476
Speaker 2: people at the office before you came in, Hey, how

1026
00:54:07,476 --> 00:54:09,476
Speaker 2: do you feel about this? And there was again camp

1027
00:54:09,476 --> 00:54:11,556
Speaker 2: of people that were like, this is barbaric. All of

1028
00:54:11,596 --> 00:54:14,356
Speaker 2: this is barbaric. The Green Mile electric chair is barbaric. Yeah,

1029
00:54:14,436 --> 00:54:17,196
Speaker 2: firing squad is barbaric. Lethal injection. This is nuts, it's

1030
00:54:17,236 --> 00:54:17,756
Speaker 2: all crazy.

1031
00:54:17,756 --> 00:54:20,156
Speaker 3: I'm not with this. And then there's people that are like, yeah,

1032
00:54:20,356 --> 00:54:20,756
Speaker 3: it'd be like.

1033
00:54:20,836 --> 00:54:24,156
Speaker 1: Mind, this is a total digression. But my brother was

1034
00:54:24,196 --> 00:54:27,876
Speaker 1: a principle in an elementary school and he was his

1035
00:54:27,916 --> 00:54:31,876
Speaker 1: great struggle was ensuring the quality of his teachers, right,

1036
00:54:32,116 --> 00:54:34,516
Speaker 1: because it's a big difference. And he would always say,

1037
00:54:34,956 --> 00:54:40,116
Speaker 1: you cannot fire your way to a better school, meaning

1038
00:54:40,156 --> 00:54:44,316
Speaker 1: that like you think your first thought is, oh, I'll

1039
00:54:44,356 --> 00:54:46,196
Speaker 1: just get rid of my bad teachers and hire good ones,

1040
00:54:46,236 --> 00:54:49,356
Speaker 1: and he's like, doesn't worked that way. You can't you

1041
00:54:50,516 --> 00:54:53,156
Speaker 1: If you're just getting rid of the bad ones and

1042
00:54:53,476 --> 00:54:56,116
Speaker 1: quote unquote hiring good ones, you're not solving the problem

1043
00:54:56,116 --> 00:54:58,796
Speaker 1: that made the bad teacher bad. Right. You have to

1044
00:54:58,836 --> 00:55:02,316
Speaker 1: look at yourself and say, am I developing people properly?

1045
00:55:02,316 --> 00:55:04,156
Speaker 1: Am I supporting them properly? Am I putting them in

1046
00:55:04,156 --> 00:55:06,716
Speaker 1: the right place? Those are the questions you got to

1047
00:55:06,756 --> 00:55:08,236
Speaker 1: start with. You can't just like go in there and

1048
00:55:08,196 --> 00:55:10,636
Speaker 1: willingly get rid of me people. And I think there's

1049
00:55:10,636 --> 00:55:14,076
Speaker 1: a version of that with that's what's not happening in

1050
00:55:14,116 --> 00:55:18,276
Speaker 1: people who are obsessed with killing off murderers. They aren't

1051
00:55:18,316 --> 00:55:22,196
Speaker 1: asking the harder question which is, well, it doesn't help.

1052
00:55:22,516 --> 00:55:24,356
Speaker 1: You're just going to if you don't solve the underlying

1053
00:55:24,356 --> 00:55:27,036
Speaker 1: conditions that create this, you're just going to get another

1054
00:55:27,076 --> 00:55:28,076
Speaker 1: crop taken your place.

1055
00:55:28,356 --> 00:55:31,596
Speaker 2: You have obviously a high level of empathy and curiosity,

1056
00:55:31,756 --> 00:55:33,996
Speaker 2: and one of the ways that you showed that is

1057
00:55:34,036 --> 00:55:37,196
Speaker 2: the way you end season eleven. There's this really powerful

1058
00:55:37,236 --> 00:55:40,516
Speaker 2: moment where you speak to the therapist of the man

1059
00:55:40,556 --> 00:55:43,036
Speaker 2: who was sentenced to death, and you do something that

1060
00:55:43,116 --> 00:55:49,676
Speaker 2: is extremely rare in podcasting. You literally are quiet and

1061
00:55:49,756 --> 00:55:51,876
Speaker 2: choked up and silent for a minute.

1062
00:55:51,916 --> 00:55:52,076
Speaker 3: Now.

1063
00:55:52,116 --> 00:55:54,356
Speaker 2: Remember this is a medium where you have to keep yapping,

1064
00:55:55,036 --> 00:56:00,236
Speaker 2: but you are so emotionally moved that you cannot even speak.

1065
00:56:00,436 --> 00:56:03,076
Speaker 2: Why did you choose to end the podcast in this moment?

1066
00:56:06,956 --> 00:56:08,876
Speaker 1: Because we've been on this, I'm going to get an

1067
00:56:08,836 --> 00:56:16,156
Speaker 1: emotion about it all over again. That doing that show

1068
00:56:16,316 --> 00:56:20,036
Speaker 1: was the single most There are a very small number

1069
00:56:20,036 --> 00:56:23,196
Speaker 1: of events that I've been a part of in my

1070
00:56:23,276 --> 00:56:29,716
Speaker 1: life experiences that have shaken me emotionally. Death of my

1071
00:56:29,796 --> 00:56:33,476
Speaker 1: father number one by far. I'll never get over that,

1072
00:56:37,956 --> 00:56:41,796
Speaker 1: birth of my children in a positive sense, doing that

1073
00:56:41,876 --> 00:56:47,636
Speaker 1: show is like up there in the shook me, shook

1074
00:56:47,676 --> 00:56:54,996
Speaker 1: me and still does it was incredibly hard to write,

1075
00:56:55,596 --> 00:57:00,036
Speaker 1: to report to like the number of times I found

1076
00:57:00,036 --> 00:57:03,276
Speaker 1: myself after a conducting interview where I couldn't function for

1077
00:57:03,316 --> 00:57:07,636
Speaker 1: the next like, and it seemed the most honest thing

1078
00:57:07,636 --> 00:57:10,636
Speaker 1: to do at the end of the show to communicate

1079
00:57:10,836 --> 00:57:17,316
Speaker 1: the fact that this tore me apart, right like, because

1080
00:57:17,356 --> 00:57:19,916
Speaker 1: what I wanted to do was the whole idea was

1081
00:57:19,956 --> 00:57:22,436
Speaker 1: it was a show about people who looked at these

1082
00:57:22,476 --> 00:57:29,396
Speaker 1: two kids from this little town in northern Alabama who

1083
00:57:29,436 --> 00:57:33,916
Speaker 1: do something insanely stupid when they're nineteen years old and

1084
00:57:35,876 --> 00:57:38,076
Speaker 1: were written off by the state of Alabama and by

1085
00:57:38,076 --> 00:57:40,796
Speaker 1: the rest of society, and the series of people come

1086
00:57:41,996 --> 00:57:46,916
Speaker 1: and see in them some element of humanity, go to

1087
00:57:46,996 --> 00:57:52,916
Speaker 1: the trouble of investing in these kids whose society has

1088
00:57:52,956 --> 00:57:56,756
Speaker 1: thought were worthless and finding something of value in them

1089
00:57:56,796 --> 00:58:01,876
Speaker 1: and learning how to love them, right And I mean,

1090
00:58:01,916 --> 00:58:04,836
Speaker 1: in one case, this guy we talked about, I think

1091
00:58:04,876 --> 00:58:10,116
Speaker 1: episode three, this lawyer visited this guy in prison, drove

1092
00:58:10,396 --> 00:58:14,716
Speaker 1: two hours each way once a month for twenty years

1093
00:58:15,676 --> 00:58:17,756
Speaker 1: to visit this kid in prison, one of one of

1094
00:58:17,796 --> 00:58:20,236
Speaker 1: the murderers in prison, just to spend time with them,

1095
00:58:21,116 --> 00:58:25,236
Speaker 1: and that like, just throw me apart, right I just

1096
00:58:25,316 --> 00:58:28,436
Speaker 1: it just and I needed at the end of that

1097
00:58:29,636 --> 00:58:34,516
Speaker 1: of the of the show to kind of just to

1098
00:58:34,556 --> 00:58:42,436
Speaker 1: tell people that, like, it's okay to like, it's okay

1099
00:58:42,476 --> 00:59:12,716
Speaker 1: to to it, it's okay to feel it is okay

1100
00:59:14,476 --> 00:59:25,796
Speaker 1: to open your heart to someone whose society, to someone

1101
00:59:25,796 --> 00:59:26,956
Speaker 1: whose society's given up.

1102
00:59:35,676 --> 00:59:40,476
Speaker 3: Thank you for sharing that. Appreciate it. Man, It's a

1103
00:59:40,596 --> 00:59:44,436
Speaker 3: very powerful moment and something to think about. And it's

1104
00:59:44,436 --> 00:59:45,116
Speaker 3: a very.

1105
00:59:46,556 --> 00:59:48,436
Speaker 2: What I thought was so amazing about It is a

1106
00:59:48,516 --> 00:59:51,596
Speaker 2: very real thing that there are people. These two men

1107
00:59:51,716 --> 00:59:56,916
Speaker 2: obviously did something wrong, but for you to explore the

1108
00:59:56,916 --> 01:00:03,116
Speaker 2: complexity of despite the fact that people make mistakes and

1109
01:00:03,196 --> 01:00:08,676
Speaker 2: do things that are horrible, we're still human beings and

1110
01:00:08,716 --> 01:00:11,996
Speaker 2: we're some much more than what the state was thinking,

1111
01:00:11,996 --> 01:00:16,316
Speaker 2: where they would literally kill people from the inside as

1112
01:00:16,316 --> 01:00:20,476
Speaker 2: if they were animals. Yeah, and so I just thought

1113
01:00:20,516 --> 01:00:22,516
Speaker 2: that was a really powerful moment, And thank you for

1114
01:00:22,636 --> 01:00:25,716
Speaker 2: sharing how those interviews moved you.

1115
01:00:26,156 --> 01:00:26,436
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1116
01:00:27,356 --> 01:00:30,076
Speaker 2: Do you hope that it makes us as a society

1117
01:00:30,116 --> 01:00:32,916
Speaker 2: more empathetic or it makes perhaps America reflect on our

1118
01:00:32,956 --> 01:00:34,796
Speaker 2: own internal empathy.

1119
01:00:34,876 --> 01:00:37,036
Speaker 1: It's always it's always a hope with these things, you know,

1120
01:00:37,556 --> 01:00:40,516
Speaker 1: it's very difficult to measure the impact. But I think

1121
01:00:41,316 --> 01:00:45,516
Speaker 1: all you can do is, like is just join the

1122
01:00:45,596 --> 01:00:49,836
Speaker 1: chorus right of people who are are insisting that we

1123
01:00:49,956 --> 01:00:50,636
Speaker 1: be more human.

1124
01:00:54,676 --> 01:00:56,436
Speaker 2: I gotta somehow end on a positive note. We got

1125
01:00:56,436 --> 01:00:56,996
Speaker 2: a button this thing?

1126
01:00:56,996 --> 01:00:57,396
Speaker 3: How do we do?

1127
01:00:57,716 --> 01:01:00,116
Speaker 1: I don't know what I did bring us down to,

1128
01:01:00,196 --> 01:01:03,396
Speaker 1: not my ability to kind of like inject a down

1129
01:01:03,436 --> 01:01:05,556
Speaker 1: or note to any room.

1130
01:01:05,556 --> 01:01:06,756
Speaker 3: I appreciate it.

1131
01:01:06,836 --> 01:01:07,916
Speaker 1: I was.

1132
01:01:08,236 --> 01:01:11,996
Speaker 2: It was a rare podcast moment and I think an

1133
01:01:11,996 --> 01:01:17,356
Speaker 2: amazing counterweight to the never ending blabbering that we have

1134
01:01:17,516 --> 01:01:18,556
Speaker 2: through laugh mics.

1135
01:01:18,876 --> 01:01:20,476
Speaker 3: It was just a really human, beautiful moment.

1136
01:01:21,396 --> 01:01:25,636
Speaker 2: And so, like I said, everyone, please listen to season

1137
01:01:25,636 --> 01:01:27,396
Speaker 2: eleven of Revisionist History.

1138
01:01:28,436 --> 01:01:28,876
Speaker 3: Last thing.

1139
01:01:28,876 --> 01:01:30,356
Speaker 2: And I don't know if you you got your pep

1140
01:01:30,396 --> 01:01:32,876
Speaker 2: and your step to do this, but you are very

1141
01:01:32,876 --> 01:01:36,116
Speaker 2: famous for giving people blurbs on.

1142
01:01:36,076 --> 01:01:36,916
Speaker 3: The back of their book.

1143
01:01:37,436 --> 01:01:40,316
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, Now, first things first, what is a blurb?

1144
01:01:40,396 --> 01:01:43,036
Speaker 2: Because it sounds like a slur that you hear, Harry Potter,

1145
01:01:43,636 --> 01:01:44,876
Speaker 2: you bloody blurb?

1146
01:01:45,236 --> 01:01:45,796
Speaker 1: Two?

1147
01:01:45,836 --> 01:01:46,276
Speaker 3: What is it?

1148
01:01:46,316 --> 01:01:50,676
Speaker 1: Two cents? Three cents? Endorsement goes on the back of

1149
01:01:50,716 --> 01:01:53,676
Speaker 1: a book which says I read it, I liked it.

1150
01:01:54,116 --> 01:01:54,956
Speaker 1: You should read it too.

1151
01:01:56,156 --> 01:01:58,036
Speaker 3: Do you mind giving a blurb for this interview here

1152
01:01:58,516 --> 01:01:58,836
Speaker 3: you can.

1153
01:01:59,836 --> 01:02:01,556
Speaker 1: Oh my god, you're the master of blurb.

1154
01:02:01,636 --> 01:02:03,556
Speaker 3: I've seen your blurbs on many different books.

1155
01:02:03,556 --> 01:02:08,516
Speaker 1: At Hassan got me to cry. I wasn't expecting it.

1156
01:02:08,756 --> 01:02:13,076
Speaker 1: I expecting that to happen. Anyone who can make their

1157
01:02:13,116 --> 01:02:18,316
Speaker 1: guests scry deserves a shout out. I would listen to

1158
01:02:18,516 --> 01:02:21,916
Speaker 1: Hassan doesn't know on a regular basis from now on, how.

1159
01:02:21,756 --> 01:02:23,716
Speaker 3: Are you prepare to be dazzled?

1160
01:02:23,956 --> 01:02:24,916
Speaker 1: Prepared to be dazzled?

1161
01:02:26,836 --> 01:02:28,676
Speaker 2: Can you also ad a parenthesis that I didn't bully

1162
01:02:28,716 --> 01:02:29,316
Speaker 2: you into crying?

1163
01:02:30,316 --> 01:02:32,796
Speaker 3: Holy rne away only lay No.

1164
01:02:34,996 --> 01:02:37,716
Speaker 2: If you haven't subscribed to Lemonada Premium yet, now's the

1165
01:02:37,716 --> 01:02:41,996
Speaker 2: perfect time because guess what. You can listen completely ad free.

1166
01:02:42,476 --> 01:02:46,436
Speaker 2: Plus you'll unlock exclusive bonus content like Halle Berry on

1167
01:02:46,476 --> 01:02:49,116
Speaker 2: how to be a good partner during menopause or Maddie

1168
01:02:49,156 --> 01:02:52,116
Speaker 2: Husson on the dumbing down of media clips you won't

1169
01:02:52,116 --> 01:02:56,596
Speaker 2: hear anywhere else. Just tap that subscribe button on Apple Podcasts,

1170
01:02:56,716 --> 01:02:59,796
Speaker 2: or head to Lemonade Premium dot com to subscribe on

1171
01:02:59,956 --> 01:03:03,516
Speaker 2: any other app that's Lemonada Premium dot Com.

1172
01:03:04,116 --> 01:03:04,796
Speaker 3: Don't miss out