Speaker 1: This is the most dramatic podcast ever and iHeartRadio podcast.
Speaker 1: Chris Harrison and Lauren Zema coming to you from the
Speaker 1: home office in Austin, Texas. I hope everybody's having a
Speaker 1: great week LZ. We just got back from Dad's weekend
Speaker 1: that you also attended at TCU. So much fun with
Speaker 1: their daughter, Taylor, and it was a great week. We
Speaker 1: had a great weekend.
Speaker 2: It's always awesome to see your kids thriving and wanting
Speaker 2: to share their life with you. We're so proud of Taylor.
Speaker 2: The most important thing to me is that she has
Speaker 2: an incredible group of girlfriends around her. I think you know,
Speaker 2: when you are parenting in any way, that's what you
Speaker 2: want the most, is just for your kids to have
Speaker 2: that group when they're away from you, to know they
Speaker 2: have that family of friends. And besides that, of course,
Speaker 2: she's doing great in school, so you want that too.
Speaker 2: But it's just nice to see them feel secure and
Speaker 2: happy and successful.
Speaker 1: It is a week out from our presidential election where
Speaker 1: the United States elected Donald Trump the forty seventh President
Speaker 1: of the United States, and the subsequent chatter and everything
Speaker 1: has now kind of played out. We did a very
Speaker 1: highly listened to podcast immediately after the day after the election,
Speaker 1: where we talked about the media and their responsibility and
Speaker 1: how they were And now that we're a week out,
Speaker 1: l Z I wanted to go back because now we
Speaker 1: have the ratings. Now we have kind of the proof
Speaker 1: of everything and what played out. And the good news
Speaker 1: is this is the good news. The media has done
Speaker 1: a full point eighty. They took a big gulp of
Speaker 1: humble pie. They have realized the error of their ways,
Speaker 1: and they have course corrected. And it is so refreshing
Speaker 1: to see how even the comedians have really learned a lot.
Speaker 1: Take for example, Jimmy.
Speaker 2: Kimmel being too dry with this.
Speaker 1: Take for example, Jimmy Kimmel who went on the next
Speaker 1: day and literally broke down in tears and told half
Speaker 1: the country, oh, well over half the country, since Donald
Speaker 1: Trump won the popular vote, that everybody is wrong and
Speaker 1: whether you voted for him or not, you all lost
Speaker 1: and you made one of the biggest disastrous decisions of
Speaker 1: your lives. And everybody lost. As he broke down into tears,
Speaker 1: and I just thought, my god, Johnny Carson must be
Speaker 1: rolling over in his grave. The day was ripe for comedy.
Speaker 1: The country needed comedy. The jokes wrote themselves. They were
Speaker 1: so there was such low hanging fruit and America needed
Speaker 1: to finally just be galvanized and laugh. And Jimmy Kimmel
Speaker 1: took his time to cry on National TV.
Speaker 2: When did late night comedy shows become? Like, I think
Speaker 2: what happened. I remember reading that when Colbert moved over,
Speaker 2: that Kimmel's people were thinking he needed to become more
Speaker 2: political because Colbert was going to bring this daily show
Speaker 2: background and really get ratings by leaning into political comedy,
Speaker 2: and so they wanted Kimmel to do more of that.
Speaker 2: It's still a late night comedy show you and I
Speaker 2: think that's where they've lost their ways, by losing their
Speaker 2: brand of Like if you're doing silly celebrity interviews but
Speaker 2: then also using your monologue for a tear filled, scolding
Speaker 2: speech at your audience, this.
Speaker 1: Arrogant, condescending, laughable speech by Kimmel, I want it, I
Speaker 1: feel like honestly, and I like Jimmy. I've known him
Speaker 1: for years. He's lost himself, Like he's so like the
Speaker 1: I just wonder if they're in this echo chamber, if anybody,
Speaker 1: if any like normal person's behind the scenes going Jimmy,
Speaker 1: what are you doing like you got to go out
Speaker 1: and do a show tonight?
Speaker 2: I want to put We said this in the last
Speaker 2: episode and I'll say it again. What we're here to
Speaker 2: do is an the last episode where we talked about
Speaker 2: the election. What we're here to do is analyze the media.
Speaker 2: We are both members of the media. That's what we
Speaker 2: built our careers on. We interviewed celebrities. I won't say
Speaker 2: I am, but you are money a celebrity I'd never feel.
Speaker 1: We also love producing TV and you got it and
Speaker 1: how you produce TV to do what it's supposed to do,
Speaker 1: which is get ratings.
Speaker 2: So exactly, and that's I think the biggest reason why
Speaker 2: we've been so fascinated by this election cycle is you know,
Speaker 2: the media is and TV shows and news are supposed
Speaker 2: to play to audiences, right, You're supposed to get ratings.
Speaker 2: We are not here to and we never endorsed anybody
Speaker 2: for president. We're not here to tell anybody who to
Speaker 2: vote for or look or to scold you for her
Speaker 2: you did vote for. We are here to talk about
Speaker 2: the way the media is handling this and that's where
Speaker 2: our interest and analysis lies. And the biggest thing to
Speaker 2: me when I see Kimmel crying or and I know
Speaker 2: you're going to get into Colbert. The popular vote also
Speaker 2: went to Donald Trump. So aren't you thinking about wanting
Speaker 2: more people to watch your show? You're yelling at your audience.
Speaker 2: And it's not just the late night hosts, it's news
Speaker 2: media too, and we'll get into that. So back to
Speaker 2: Kimmel and Colbert.
Speaker 1: And what I find interesting is, and we did this
Speaker 1: on the Battery, you did it on Entertainment tonight. You
Speaker 1: would have these kind of you know, post mortems every quarter,
Speaker 1: every time ratings come out. And according to Nielsen, across
Speaker 1: the board, the late night shows are dropping viewers like flies,
Speaker 1: every one of them across the board. I just looked
Speaker 1: two minutes before we recorded this. I looked everybody as
Speaker 1: Nielsen ratings are down over Q one. So while they've
Speaker 1: been covering this election stuff, while they have been unabashedly
Speaker 1: just crushing one side and making this so political and
Speaker 1: not really making jokes, they've lost viewers. So if I'm
Speaker 1: in the rooms is an executive prision yeah, or if
Speaker 1: I'm at Kobert any of these, I'm like, okay, let's
Speaker 1: go out tonight and look, we don't need to praise Trump,
Speaker 1: we don't need to be someone we're not. But let's
Speaker 1: crack some jokes about the vaunted ground game of Kamala Harris.
Speaker 1: Just again, don't be mean. How wrong the polls, how
Speaker 1: wrong the polls were. Everybody thought it was a close call.
Speaker 1: You're right, the comedy was there. The comedy's there, and
Speaker 1: you don't have to be mean to anybody, but you
Speaker 1: can be funny because clearly one side could not have
Speaker 1: missed it worse, like make fun of MSNBC, make fun
Speaker 1: of CNN. Like you don't have to make fun of
Speaker 1: the actual candidate, but you can have so much fun
Speaker 1: with what just happened, and we can all, you know,
Speaker 1: cry together or laugh together or whatever. So that was Kimmel.
Speaker 1: Kimmel came out and instead of doing anything close to that,
Speaker 1: he cried, literally cried, and told everyone how they lost.
Speaker 1: Stephen Colbert, who, as you said, did find an audience
Speaker 1: early on because he was so political and he's kind
Speaker 1: of stuck to it. But he came out and instead
Speaker 1: of doing something funny, he said, we still don't know
Speaker 1: the entire parade of clowns, degenerates and in laws that
Speaker 1: Trump will have running this country. But one guy we
Speaker 1: know we'll have a major role is RFK Junior. Now,
Speaker 1: if you're not familiar with him, it's probably because he
Speaker 1: ran for president and nobody cared.
Speaker 2: That's not even true. I mean, that's what's wild he had.
Speaker 2: If nobody cared, then how come it made a difference
Speaker 2: when RFK jumped in and brought his supporters over to Trump.
Speaker 1: Well, how come you're doing a stand up about it?
Speaker 1: And by the way, Colbert, in the most typocritical way,
Speaker 1: has had RFK on several times and lauded over him
Speaker 1: and kissed up to him and told him how great
Speaker 1: he was.
Speaker 3: To me.
Speaker 2: When late night comedy, when SNL, when journalism as well,
Speaker 2: I'll throw it in there. When it's solid. Its most
Speaker 2: brilliant is when you are the middle ground, analyzing both sides.
Speaker 2: It's making fun of both sides, critiquing both sides. That's
Speaker 2: when I feel the most connected as a viewer, and
Speaker 2: I have the empathy. Of the problem we have is
Speaker 2: that the more clearly one sided properties like an MSNBC
Speaker 2: Era A Fox have upped their ratings in recent years
Speaker 2: because people go to what they connect to. I guess
Speaker 2: it's people like kind of go to where they feel
Speaker 2: like they're hearing. They're hearing themselves, is what the ratings
Speaker 2: might show. But in the end, right one group's going
Speaker 2: to lose. Next time another group might lose. So to me,
Speaker 2: there's a smart business move in maintaining being that neutral
Speaker 2: ground over time. To me, it's the long game, it's
Speaker 2: the big picture. What do you think from a ratings perspective.
Speaker 1: We can go further now and talk about the Nielsen ratings.
Speaker 1: As we were talking about, you know the fact that
Speaker 1: the election coverage on election night is the super Bowl,
Speaker 1: It's the biggest night for the press. And we've now
Speaker 1: gotten the Nielsen ratings for some of the media post election,
Speaker 1: so this last week and it's staggering. And now, look,
Speaker 1: I wanted to defend these numbers and the bleed off
Speaker 1: of these numbers because they are devastating. But remember if
Speaker 1: you just played in the super Bowl, that's Election night
Speaker 1: the next day, there is a hangover effect. There's a
Speaker 1: fatigue in your audience. They are tired. They're not going
Speaker 1: to tune in in masks like they were. It would
Speaker 1: be like having the culmination in the final rows of
Speaker 1: The Bachelor and the next night doing another show. It's like,
Speaker 1: you've got to give people a break. So I want
Speaker 1: to say there is a little bit of a caveat
Speaker 1: with these numbers, But these numbers are so big that
Speaker 1: it is pretty breathtaking and it's pretty noticeable. Nielsen ratings
Speaker 1: plunge at MSNBC since Trump was elected the forty seventh
Speaker 1: president of the United States. One example, Wednesday to Friday,
Speaker 1: so obviously the election was super Tuesday. Joe his first hour,
Speaker 1: down forty percent, his second hour. This is Joe Scarborough
Speaker 1: and Mika down thirty seven percent, Andrew Mitchell down forty percent,
Speaker 1: Ari Melber down fifty percent, Joy Reid, who's been easily
Speaker 1: the most outspoken propaganda machine for the Democratic Party, down
Speaker 1: fifty four point six percent, all in with Chris Hayes
Speaker 1: down forty seven percent, Alex Wagner tonight not sure what
Speaker 1: that is, but down fifty three percent, Lawrence o'donald down
Speaker 1: sixty percent, and Stephanie Rule down sixty seven percent. Even
Speaker 1: with the fatigue, as I try to give them an out,
Speaker 1: holy cow, that is no.
Speaker 2: Those numbers are staggering. And I think I mentioned earlier
Speaker 2: that some I mentioned that maybe CNN had done worse
Speaker 2: than MSNBC on election night, and now there's like a
Speaker 2: little bit of back and forth about like the way
Speaker 2: that that was presented. No, no, I'm sorry. Okay, so
Speaker 2: on elections, Okay, let's go to Thursday. MSNBC brought in
Speaker 2: Thursday after election night only five hundred ninety six thousand
Speaker 2: total average daily viewers. CNN had just four hundred and
Speaker 2: nineteen thousand. I mean these numbers in comparison, Fox News
Speaker 2: number one with two point six million viewers. So I
Speaker 2: think that speaks a little bit to what you were
Speaker 2: just saying. Those numbers you just listed, those percentage drops
Speaker 2: are staggering if you factor in. Okay, maybe there's fatigue,
Speaker 2: but then why on the Thursday after the election is
Speaker 2: Fox two point six million versus MSNBC five hundred ninety
Speaker 2: six thousand.
Speaker 1: Let me just throw at this theory. When the Dallas
Speaker 1: Cowboys lose, and they lose badly like they did this week,
Speaker 1: I won't watch SportsCenter. I don't want to hear Steven A.
Speaker 1: Smith and all the pundits just rip on the Cowboys
Speaker 1: and tell me how bad my team sucks. So that's
Speaker 1: kind of what this is. Are you going to go
Speaker 1: back and just listen to how bad your team sucks
Speaker 1: and how bad you lost for the next week, or
Speaker 1: are you going to take a big break from that?
Speaker 1: And Fox people are like, oh good, I get to
Speaker 1: just hear people that's true.
Speaker 2: We're in the win. Yeah, revel the win on MSNBC,
Speaker 2: Like part of me wonders though, would you tune in
Speaker 2: and like you and I are not MSNBC watchers, We
Speaker 2: just flip in and out on ye Election nights are
Speaker 2: a big political, big news moments between all the channels.
Speaker 2: But would you tune in to like feel like you're
Speaker 2: with your people still and to feel like maybe there's
Speaker 2: hope or to feel or to even wonder where did
Speaker 2: we go wrong? I don't know. Give me that sports
Speaker 2: analogy back, like would you go and listen to a
Speaker 2: podcast about the Cowboys loss and wonder and people speculating
Speaker 2: what do they do wrong and how can they do
Speaker 2: better in the future? Or would you just tune it
Speaker 2: all out?
Speaker 1: I think which to go? And there's a theme throughout
Speaker 1: this podcast the authenticity you're seeking authenticity and when you
Speaker 1: go see and I've I've watched MSNBC this week and
Speaker 1: I've watched CNN. I've watched them all and when you
Speaker 1: see Joy Reid not have any sort of her and
Speaker 1: Rachel Madda'll not have any sort of revelation or open,
Speaker 1: honest look in the mirror of what really went wrong.
Speaker 1: And now instead they're just doubling, tripling, quadrupling down on
Speaker 1: the same message they were giving you before. I think
Speaker 1: there is a fatigue there of like enough is enough.
Speaker 1: And clearly, as I look at these numbers, people have
Speaker 1: said enough is enough and they are walking away from
Speaker 1: that network in droves, and that those numbers can't just
Speaker 1: be explained by fatigue. That is, that is when you're
Speaker 1: up in the fifties and sixty percent of your audience,
Speaker 1: think about that, what's mass?
Speaker 2: That is scary over half your people? That's wild. I
Speaker 2: do want to look back. I don't have numbers, do
Speaker 2: you on how what they're how that compares to numbers
Speaker 2: like pre the past couple months, if you're comparing MSNBC
Speaker 2: just on an average month versus this had really been
Speaker 2: election season.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, clearly, clearly, if they're down, you know, fifty
Speaker 1: sixty percent, you can just double those numbers to where
Speaker 1: were pre And obviously again the lead up to the
Speaker 1: super Bowl, and the super Bowl itself is huge, so
Speaker 1: those numbers are going to drop, but these were just
Speaker 1: so glaring and astronomical I wanted to bring them up.
Speaker 1: The only thing you can definitely be guaranteed in politics
Speaker 1: in the United States of America is the pendulum will swing.
Speaker 1: It always has. I've only been alive fifty three years,
Speaker 1: and i have seen it swing from Jimmy Carter to Reagan,
Speaker 1: back over to Obama and Clinton and back over to
Speaker 1: the Bushes and back over to you know, it will
Speaker 1: always swing and you don't ever need to worry about it.
Speaker 1: That's going to happen. I just I wonder, like, why
Speaker 1: isn't anybody in the room saying, hey, let's go out
Speaker 1: and perform Jimmy or Steven, like, go out and be
Speaker 1: funny tonight, let's really let's let's be bigger than this
Speaker 1: and let's crush it. And the fact that they just can't,
Speaker 1: Like I would sit in that room and as an
Speaker 1: executive producer and say, you got to get over yourself.
Speaker 1: What you're telling me, and all you're saying is your feelings.
Speaker 1: I feel this, I feel this. I don't mean to
Speaker 1: be cruel. But I don't care how you feel right now, Jimmy.
Speaker 1: What I want you to do is go perform.
Speaker 2: At the end of the day, you're a late night
Speaker 2: comedyost instead of being a comedian. You went out there
Speaker 2: and you cried.
Speaker 1: This takes me back to whin. I got in a
Speaker 1: shouting match with an executive on my show. This is
Speaker 1: during the last campaign between Trump and Hillary Clinton, and
Speaker 1: we were doing a live a tape show and I
Speaker 1: got called off the set up and berated, very vocally
Speaker 1: abused in front of everyone in the control room because
Speaker 1: I wouldn't make a Trump joke and I wouldn't basically
Speaker 1: support Hillary Clinton. And it wasn't that I didn't support
Speaker 1: Hillary Clinton, and it wasn't that I didn't love hate Trump.
Speaker 1: But I said, that's not who we are, that's not
Speaker 1: what we do. The people that are tuning in on
Speaker 1: Monday night to watch the Bachelor Bacherette are not like man.
Speaker 1: I hope they really get political tonight, and I hope
Speaker 1: they solve our political problems. They're escaping to us. When
Speaker 1: I watched Saturday Night Live, when I watch Jimmy Kimore Colbert,
Speaker 1: I just wanted to laugh. I want I tuned in
Speaker 1: and be like, oh my god, they're going to crush
Speaker 1: it tonight. Their monologues are going to be amazing. If
Speaker 1: you're a comedy writer, this is manna from heaven. And
Speaker 1: they couldn't have failed and missed the mark more and
Speaker 1: it just it makes me sad for them. It makes
Speaker 1: me sad for the viewers they've killed. Late Night. The
Speaker 1: ratings have dropped across the board, you know, the number
Speaker 1: one late night show in America. Greg Guttfeldt on Fox
Speaker 1: News By Far, I want to say three at least
Speaker 1: three x the ratings of all the other late night
Speaker 1: shows that considered.
Speaker 2: So I've seen little clips, but I've never fully watched it.
Speaker 2: Is it like a comedic at all?
Speaker 1: He does a roundtable thing, he has consistent and gut
Speaker 1: Felt's very you know, whether you think he's funny or not,
Speaker 1: he's comedic. He writes his jokes and they're very you know.
Speaker 2: Like so it's more political, but a little.
Speaker 1: Comm tongue in cheek, lighthearted.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: And the other one that had did go up, it's
Speaker 1: kind of skewed. Comedy Central's their their show has gone
Speaker 1: up because obviously the Daily Show on Comedy Central the
Speaker 1: return of John Stewart was a big part of that.
Speaker 1: So those were skewed early. It's dropped since John Stewart's return,
Speaker 1: but Comedy Central is notably up as well. And the ratings,
Speaker 1: and we'll get into this, that kind of momentum carried
Speaker 1: into election night as well. For and we we theorized
Speaker 1: and hypothesized of what we thought the ratings were going
Speaker 1: to be about network News versus cable, and we were right.
Speaker 1: We were right about network Everybody was down. The overall
Speaker 1: election coverage in our viewership was down. But who did
Speaker 1: well cable networks? Who was a disaster? The actual networks
Speaker 1: which is just such a again it's still partless, yes,
Speaker 1: and that's exactly what I'm talking about. It's ABC, NBC,
Speaker 1: CBS was barely on the board. And you know, ABC
Speaker 1: was the best of the worst than NBC, than CBS.
Speaker 1: But who led coverage? Fox, MSNBC, CNN.
Speaker 2: And I think CNN did the worst of those things.
Speaker 1: They were that they yeah, they were the worst of
Speaker 1: all those which.
Speaker 2: Look at Also, that's what it speaks to, is what
Speaker 2: I just said. I mean, people do seem to want
Speaker 2: to go to where they're going to feel their opinions
Speaker 2: are matched, and that scares me. I don't think it's
Speaker 2: a good way to live. I've said this before. I
Speaker 2: try on social media to follow people I don't agree with.
Speaker 2: On election night, I flip back and forth between the
Speaker 2: channels because I want to be exposed to other voices
Speaker 2: to keep a good perspective. But you know, also there's
Speaker 2: something to like the importance of a talent that people
Speaker 2: connect with. People like to feel like, oh, I like
Speaker 2: and trust Anderson Cooper, or I like and trust and
Speaker 2: watch you know, Brettbear, whoever it is.
Speaker 1: And I guess that's what's crazy is when I grew up,
Speaker 1: it's just like I'm going to watch Dan rather I'm
Speaker 1: going to watch Tom Brokaw. The networks owned those faces
Speaker 1: and voices, and now I think, to your point, the
Speaker 1: cable news networks own those characters.
Speaker 2: That back then you went to those personalities because you
Speaker 2: felt you would get trusted news, and that now people
Speaker 2: feel they like the opinion.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I think that. I think the idea when
Speaker 1: I was younger was this is unbiased news, and now
Speaker 1: that we know that they are biased, I think people
Speaker 1: feel like, well, if I know George Stephanopolis does not
Speaker 1: have a journalistic take at all, Like he journalism's gone.
Speaker 1: So George Stephanopolis is just a mouthpiece for the Democratic Party.
Speaker 1: So if you're going to get a really bad take
Speaker 1: from George and ABC News, I'll just go to CNN
Speaker 1: and or MSNBC and really and really get like Rachel
Speaker 1: matt Hower read that a really propagandist or Tucker Carlson
Speaker 1: or whoever who's really in the propaganda of the right.
Speaker 1: You know, like, if you're going to go that way,
Speaker 1: I might as well just go all the way.
Speaker 2: I think you're right. I think that that's the problem
Speaker 2: is that the networks didn't stay, didn't keep that level
Speaker 2: of trust of being unbiased, of being if they'd maintain that,
Speaker 2: but I think they lost it the last time Trump
Speaker 2: and in twenty sixteen was when it became really evident
Speaker 2: how people felt, and that is I agree, that's the problem.
Speaker 2: Is it's not being clear because it's a lack of authenticity,
Speaker 2: and then it's a lack of trust. Like if you're
Speaker 2: gonna be someone who really stands one way, you have
Speaker 2: to be honest and own that and say I am
Speaker 2: an opinion journalist or whatever the phrase we want to
Speaker 2: use for it is. You can't say no, no, no,
Speaker 2: I'm a journalist when it's so clear that you feel
Speaker 2: one way like you have to own it or not
Speaker 2: one person. That's like and I think it all changed again.
Speaker 2: It leaned even more towards showing that this time because
Speaker 2: I think of the debate and David Muhr. I held
Speaker 2: David muirorup as someone who I thought he stayed pretty
Speaker 2: I did too straightforward.
Speaker 1: And I've heard nothing but good things about him.
Speaker 2: I was like, that man is an old school like
Speaker 2: he just reports the news and keeps it even. And
Speaker 2: then the way that he was in the debate of
Speaker 2: only fact checking Trump and not Harris, I thought wow.
Speaker 2: And then he tried to do we talked about on
Speaker 2: the podcast. He tried to do that apology tour the
Speaker 2: next day. I'm different, like I'm Live with Kelly and
Speaker 2: not really an apology tour, but sort of trying to
Speaker 2: justify the way he was. And I thought, no, you've
Speaker 2: lost me. I've seen big.
Speaker 1: Shadow of Dana Walden who runs ABC News, and that
Speaker 1: lauded over him as well. You know, I go back
Speaker 1: and this will be an interesting kind of if there
Speaker 1: was such a thing as self reflection, and clearly there's not.
Speaker 1: Is that this is the whole point of this podcast.
Speaker 1: There is zero self reflection from the media. And that's
Speaker 1: what I find fascinating. I go back to that Republican
Speaker 1: debate the first time. I remember, like Jeb Bush and
Speaker 1: who was like maybe Ted Cruz, I was trying to
Speaker 1: think he was in that debate when they debated Trump
Speaker 1: for the first time, and they went in for a
Speaker 1: presidential primary debate for the Republicans, and you know, Trump
Speaker 1: came in just like it was like so like like
Speaker 1: a college frat boy showed up and just like disrupted
Speaker 1: this tea party, and it was like nobody knew how
Speaker 1: to handle him. And I found that fascinating. I remember
Speaker 1: they were just like, you know, Jeb Bush, who was
Speaker 1: the heir apparent, I mean, he was a Bush and
Speaker 1: he's going to be our presidential nominee and he just
Speaker 1: fumbled and bumbled and he lost the primary to nobody
Speaker 1: knew how to handle him. Donald Trump was living rent
Speaker 1: free in all their heads. Everyone just was like befuddled
Speaker 1: on how to handle him. And I feel like the
Speaker 1: same thing happened to the media. At first. They treated
Speaker 1: him with kid gloves and a comedian.
Speaker 2: He was the guy from The Apprentice, right right, he's
Speaker 2: one of that.
Speaker 1: He had been on all these shows. He had been
Speaker 1: on the View, he went on Jimmy Fallon, he did
Speaker 1: all this stuff, and when he became a candidate, it
Speaker 1: was like, oh, this is going to be fun. We're
Speaker 1: going to do bits with Donald Trump because he's so comedic.
Speaker 1: He's really good at this stuff. That's why he's been
Speaker 1: on SNL. He's funny.
Speaker 2: Now Trump actually has good comedic timing. He does.
Speaker 1: But the problem is, all of a sudden there was
Speaker 1: a turn of like, oh crap, he's actually going to
Speaker 1: beat Hillary Clinton. We have aid it and embedded in
Speaker 1: all this what do we do? And then from there
Speaker 1: on there was this tipping point, as Malcolm Gladwell would say,
Speaker 1: where he has lived rent free in everybody's head and
Speaker 1: nobody no intellectuals. And there are so many smart people
Speaker 1: on both sides of the aisle, you know, opposed to
Speaker 1: what Jimmy Kimmel says, there's brilliant people on both sides
Speaker 1: of the aisle. Nobody's been able to crack the code
Speaker 1: of how do we handle this guy who's a bully
Speaker 1: he's bombastic. Yes, he tells very tall tales. As Joe
Speaker 1: Rogan says, he bobs and weaves, and he goes on
Speaker 1: these weird tangents about rockets and stuff.
Speaker 2: I think Trump says that about himself.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah. But nobody has cracked the code of how
Speaker 1: do we unpack this and how do we handle it?
Speaker 1: And my point was, don't feel bad because the Republicans
Speaker 1: couldn't figure it out either. They couldn't beat him in
Speaker 1: their own house. The media has just not been able
Speaker 1: to figure out how do we crack the code of
Speaker 1: how do we handle.
Speaker 2: It's the balance of how do we cover him?
Speaker 1: But you know what, and I don't have the answer.
Speaker 1: I'm not brilliant. I don't have the answer, but I
Speaker 1: just know that what's happened has clearly not been the answer.
Speaker 2: Well, what has happened from a lot of media has
Speaker 2: been that they've you know, I mean MSNBC footage of
Speaker 2: his rally up against footage of Hitler's rally from Madison
Speaker 2: Square Garden. I mean, what has happened I think is
Speaker 2: last time it was more playful, and so this time
Speaker 2: they leaned so hard into like, no, he's this villain
Speaker 2: and however you feel whoever you voted for, the popular
Speaker 2: vote has shown that the country does not feel that way.
Speaker 2: And so again when you go back to that discussion
Speaker 2: of like how do you handle it? I believe journalists
Speaker 2: should be the voice for the voice of the people.
Speaker 2: I think they should critique across the board. I think
Speaker 2: if you're going to be a more opinionated journalist and
Speaker 2: be on a cable network that has more of a slant,
Speaker 2: you have to own that. And to me, the biggest
Speaker 2: you know, now we're in this election blame game, right
Speaker 2: and everyone in the in is analyzing and has their
Speaker 2: sources on and who's to blame? And as you pointed out,
Speaker 2: I think the biggest who's to blame meaning for the
Speaker 2: Harris loss. And I think, as you pointed out, the
Speaker 2: biggest thing that's not happening is that both media and
Speaker 2: I would say a lot of people in the Democratic
Speaker 2: Party aren't looking in the mirror. I think overall the
Speaker 2: biggest issue has been a lack of authenticity and a
Speaker 2: lack of connection to your audience. And I would say
Speaker 2: that to both the media and the Democratic Party. And
Speaker 2: I probably have to say that because I think there's
Speaker 2: a lot of overlap. The statistics just show the media
Speaker 2: is overwhelmingly democratic.
Speaker 1: Like well, that's why you know when you say that
Speaker 1: dominated the ratings, and they dominated election night ratings by far.
Speaker 1: There's only one network where where Republicans go. There's only
Speaker 1: there's out of ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN, MSNBC, those are
Speaker 1: clearly hugely liberal Democratic staunch supporters, there's only one place.
Speaker 1: So all Republicans basically went to Fox News. So Fox
Speaker 1: gets thirteen million, and you know ABC got five million.
Speaker 1: So if Fox Fox News, a cable network, did over
Speaker 1: two x what Abc News did, a network with massively,
Speaker 1: massively more reach, that's what Fox did and they completely
Speaker 1: dominated the landscape. But again, there's only one place to
Speaker 1: go if you really want to hear your side, and
Speaker 1: you're on the right. So it is a little bit
Speaker 1: of misleading numbers because Democrats are spread across the board.
Speaker 1: And so when you look at the blame game, and
Speaker 1: this is what's interesting, and to expand on your point,
Speaker 1: if they really wanted to beat Donald Trump, if they
Speaker 1: really wanted to and when I say they, if I'm
Speaker 1: met CNN, MSNBC or whatever, and you really want to
Speaker 1: beat Donald Trump with which they do wholeheartedly. They would
Speaker 1: have not given him any oxygen. You just don't cover
Speaker 1: him and don't talk about him. That's how you treat
Speaker 1: a bully, right, If you have a bully and they've
Speaker 1: called him a bully many times, what would you do
Speaker 1: in school? Ignore? Don't give it oxygen. But here in
Speaker 1: lies the hypocritical problem. The best ratings in the world
Speaker 1: for MSNBC, CNN, all of them are with Donald Trump
Speaker 1: in the lead. So if Donald Trump went away, so
Speaker 1: do their ratings. This is really the best thing that's happened.
Speaker 1: They won't say this quiet part out loud, but the
Speaker 1: best thing they could have hoped for is Donald Trump.
Speaker 1: That gives Rachel mattout Joy read Anderson Cooper endless amounts
Speaker 1: like don't believe they're tears.
Speaker 2: Well, ratings when Trump was in the White House were
Speaker 2: way higher dar Biden was. Yet there's a lot of
Speaker 2: a lot of news happening.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and so in this will continue right now, they
Speaker 1: took a hit, But the best thing that happens for
Speaker 1: them is now they have news for the next four years.
Speaker 1: They can tell you what's wrong in the world. And
Speaker 1: that that is immediately you know, was there a Mara
Speaker 1: Kopa was there a about face of guys, this is
Speaker 1: what went wrong with our our plan with getting Biden
Speaker 1: out and getting Kamala in and not having an election.
Speaker 1: There was no primary. Nobody really elected her. Like there
Speaker 1: were so many things that went wrong on the Democratic side.
Speaker 1: There's a laundry list of problems. There wasn't one thing.
Speaker 1: There were a million things that went wrong. Instead of
Speaker 1: that laundry list, I think Bernie Sanders is anyone that's
Speaker 1: really kind of hit back. But there's a laundry list
Speaker 1: of things that went wrong. And instead of like, guys,
Speaker 1: this is what we did wrong, it's the first day
Speaker 1: was Trump Trump, Trump Trump. He still lives rent free
Speaker 1: in their head, but now he's going to help them
Speaker 1: pay the rent for another four years. So it's it's
Speaker 1: it is this kind of interesting. You know, they're really
Speaker 1: opposing feelings of God, do we want him to go away? God?
Speaker 1: We love it when he's in the White House. It's
Speaker 1: a tough it's a tough inner battle. But now they
Speaker 1: have something to talk about because if they had it
Speaker 1: their way, let's say they had the House, the Senate
Speaker 1: and Kamala Harris, what the hell are you going to
Speaker 1: talk about for four years, It's true, it's Trump's fault again.
Speaker 1: I mean, they spent the last four years blaming Trump.
Speaker 1: How could you spend the next four years. How could
Speaker 1: you spend the next four years the better part of
Speaker 1: a decade blaming someone who's not in office. They were
Speaker 1: kind of running out of rope there. So it is
Speaker 1: very interesting. So I'm just saying, be careful when you
Speaker 1: hear the when you see the crocodile tears, because they're
Speaker 1: also laughing their way to the bank.
Speaker 2: Well, you're pointing to the conflict of on the one
Speaker 2: hand that we heard from a lot of media, like
Speaker 2: you know, critiquing Trump and Trump is is evil and so,
Speaker 2: and the promoting of Kamala Harris and that. I mean, look,
Speaker 2: I'll take Time magazine, for example, without an interview from her,
Speaker 2: they put her on the cover with the headline her moment,
Speaker 2: no critique, just an article when Trump. When the assassination
Speaker 2: attempt on Trump happened, I watched Times Instagram they first
Speaker 2: posted their cover and it was the photo of him
Speaker 2: with his fist in the air, and I was like, wow,
Speaker 2: what a poignant cover that. You know, We'll go down
Speaker 2: in history an assassination attempt on a former president. At
Speaker 2: some point they changed the cover. They changed it to
Speaker 2: a different photo where he was lying on the ground,
Speaker 2: and I thought, wow, who made the call and said, hey,
Speaker 2: that photos like makes him look too powerful. You need
Speaker 2: to change it. There's no other way to read that
Speaker 2: to me. And so they're stuck between do we, you know,
Speaker 2: promote and help and support Kamala Harris becoming the president
Speaker 2: because so many of us we are so democratic, that's
Speaker 2: the way we all lean and you know, that's not
Speaker 2: even getting into like who's paying the bills and everything,
Speaker 2: or we also do want Trump in the White House
Speaker 2: because of the ratings and oh also so we have
Speaker 2: to kind of appear like we're like, we're not so
Speaker 2: biased and we're critiquing both sides. And what all that
Speaker 2: boils down to to me is what I just said
Speaker 2: a few minutes ago. A lack of authenticity. That's where
Speaker 2: they've lost their way own what you are as a brand,
Speaker 2: be who you are as a brand. It's just what
Speaker 2: you were talking about with The Bachelor, where you're like,
Speaker 2: this isn't what we are as a brand. When you're
Speaker 2: trying to appease too many parties. When you're trying to
Speaker 2: check too many boxes, when you're listening to everybody on
Speaker 2: Twitter and you have your advertisers, and you have your
Speaker 2: own personal feelings and you've got to appear like your
Speaker 2: that's when it's going you're losing because you're trying to
Speaker 2: do too much at once.
Speaker 1: Well, the old saying is if you try to please everybody,
Speaker 1: you please nobody.
Speaker 2: Right, if you stand for everything, you stand for nothing.
Speaker 2: I think when you look at what people will probably
Speaker 2: call this the podcast election, the rise of the podcast Election,
Speaker 2: Joe Rogan was simple and clear. He had Trump in
Speaker 2: for three hours in his studio, that's his brand. Did
Speaker 2: he grill Trump as much as and Anden? Did he
Speaker 2: push him as much as you know, maybe a classic
Speaker 2: journalist would have no, but that wasn't his brand. And
Speaker 2: he said he would have done the same thing for Harris.
Speaker 2: She didn't end up wanting to do it, and he
Speaker 2: has later come out and revealed well, also part of
Speaker 2: that was she didn't want to come to his studio
Speaker 2: and she only wanted to get forty five minutes, and
Speaker 2: her team wanted some editing power, and he said no
Speaker 2: to all those things. He stuck to his brand. Instead
Speaker 2: of getting what could have been, Oh, Harris could be
Speaker 2: a big get, he stuck to his brand and I
Speaker 2: think that that is that has meant something.
Speaker 1: The comedian Theovonn who also Trump, went on his podcast
Speaker 1: said the exact same thing that the Harris campaign asked
Speaker 1: about editing rights, and they both said the same thing. No,
Speaker 1: we we don't do that. We tape. This is like
Speaker 1: what podcasts are is kind of that live radio feel.
Speaker 1: It is AM radio. You're just you are coming on.
Speaker 1: And this isn't a clean, edited, polished propaganda advertisement. And
Speaker 1: so you know, to your point when people said, well, well,
Speaker 1: two things that I find very funny. One, immediately people
Speaker 1: came out and Democrats and liberals said we need our
Speaker 1: version of Joe Rogan. Guys, I hate to break this
Speaker 1: to you, Democrats, you had him. He was a liberal,
Speaker 1: he's a Democrat.
Speaker 2: A Democratic, and he was a Bernie Sanders fan.
Speaker 1: There Democrats pushed him away and pushed him out of
Speaker 1: the party. It's so funny. I was just like, man,
Speaker 1: could you be more blind to what's going on? He
Speaker 1: was a die hard Democrat. He has ripped both sides,
Speaker 1: but he definitely leaned on that liberal side. But the
Speaker 1: other thing is people said, well, you know, she did
Speaker 1: go on Call Her Daddy Alex Cooper, and this is
Speaker 1: nothing against Alex Cooper or Call Her Daddy. It's a
Speaker 1: hugely successful, huge money revenue making podcast. But that was
Speaker 1: not I think people give too much credit to Joe Rogan,
Speaker 1: and I really I'm a fan of Joe Rogan. But
Speaker 1: it didn't have to be Joe Rogan. It could have
Speaker 1: been anybody because the huge difference was podcast A we'll
Speaker 1: call it Joe Rogan was open, you could say anything.
Speaker 1: It was unedited. They talked about crazy stuff, they talked
Speaker 1: about serious stuff. To Call Her Daddy was clearly a
Speaker 1: scripted moment. It was Kamala Harris going in giving her
Speaker 1: talking points. There was no follow up, there was no creativity.
Speaker 2: That's what I'm talking about, is the inauthentic thing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and so that's what that goes to my point
Speaker 1: of like it just you're comparing apples and oranges. Those
Speaker 1: podcasts weren't the same because she didn't go do a podcast.
Speaker 1: She went and taped a commercial with Alex Cooper.
Speaker 2: Well, let's think about it, like this, Call Her Daddy
Speaker 2: is known. How it started was a very sex focused podcast.
Speaker 2: She's expanded from that, but there's still every time she
Speaker 2: has like a Katy Perry or Gwyneth Paltrow on, there's
Speaker 2: a couple sex questions out there. From what I saw,
Speaker 2: I don't think they got into sex at all. So
Speaker 2: and look, by the way, I'm not saying you should
Speaker 2: you're a presidential candidate, but what is Call Her Daddy?
Speaker 2: I think that's why in part that, I mean, you
Speaker 2: could argue it was whether people wanted to hear from
Speaker 2: Kamala Harris or not. But I think at least in
Speaker 2: part why it wasn't as Gangbuster's numbers, as even a
Speaker 2: typical Call Her Daddy episode, it wasn't what Call Her
Speaker 2: Daddy was. It wasn't even the same set. It's now
Speaker 2: come out from Harris's FEC filings that they paid one
Speaker 2: hundred thousand dollars to build a fake Call Her Daddy
Speaker 2: set for her to do that interview in a hotel
Speaker 2: room somewhere. I think because she said she couldn't leave Washington.
Speaker 2: And also I've worked on a lot of sets in
Speaker 2: different newsrooms, from startups to bigger. That was not on
Speaker 2: a hundred one thousand dollars. I don't know where that
Speaker 2: money went, but two chairs and a table and like
Speaker 2: a little signage and some picture frames. That was not
Speaker 2: one hundred grand, That was a couple thousand dollars max.
Speaker 2: So whoever you pay to do that, that money was
Speaker 2: not you were ripped off. Well, but it wasn't authentic.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you're right, the authenticity of everything. And now
Speaker 1: that things are coming out, and you know, Kamala Harris
Speaker 1: one thing you have to give credit for. She came
Speaker 1: in late and she raised a billion dollars. A billion dollars.
Speaker 1: That is staggering, staggering, staggering.
Speaker 2: No matter how you feel politically, it sickens me on
Speaker 2: some level how much our country spells on elections. The
Speaker 2: problem is, I guess you have to. But god, it's.
Speaker 1: Now come out that she spent more than a billion
Speaker 1: dollars in that they are either somewhere between eighteen to
Speaker 1: twenty million dollars in debt, so they spent over a
Speaker 1: billion dollars. They couldn't even balance their own budget, which
Speaker 1: is kind of laughable, but they spent over a billion dollars.
Speaker 1: And then the story came out one of the big
Speaker 1: celebrity endorsers. And you know there's another thing where we
Speaker 1: talked about the day after in the last podcast we
Speaker 1: did about celebrity endorsements.
Speaker 2: There were whether they're worth anything?
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think you and I both agree they
Speaker 1: they didn't. They don't move the needle to the good.
Speaker 1: But I do not think they moved the needle to
Speaker 1: the bad. Like were the Avengers and that video cringe worthy?
Speaker 1: And were they ineffective? Yes? Are they laughable sometimes? Yeah?
Speaker 1: But I don't think they I don't think anybody in
Speaker 1: a sase you're deterred, right, I don't think anybody in
Speaker 1: Pennsylvania's like Scarlet Johannes.
Speaker 2: For I'm not going to agree. I don't think that happened.
Speaker 1: I don't think it matters. I don't think Taylor Swift
Speaker 1: hurt anybody by saying she loved Kamala and if it
Speaker 1: made her feel better, great, So I don't think they
Speaker 1: matter one way or the other. But one thing I
Speaker 1: will say I find very disheartening is now that all
Speaker 1: the filings and all the truth has to come out
Speaker 1: as far as financials, Kamala raised a billion dollars. That's great.
Speaker 1: Now it comes out that Oprah Winfrey. Her, you know,
Speaker 1: arguably the biggest interview in the world that you can get,
Speaker 1: was paid a million dollars. Oprah took a million dollar
Speaker 1: paycheck to interview Kamala in what seemed like a very
Speaker 1: friendly town hall. This is my girl. I got my
Speaker 1: arm around her. I'm endorsing her. This is just me
Speaker 1: being me Oprah, you know, the most genuine face that
Speaker 1: we all trusted. Does it tarnish that feeling of love
Speaker 1: and unity when you realize Oprah took a million dollars
Speaker 1: to do that in ah centic?
Speaker 2: Yeah, that, again, I think is where people are now.
Speaker 2: Media are blaming this group or that group, and that
Speaker 2: just disgusts me. To do that too, is like to
Speaker 2: place the blame back on different groups of people who
Speaker 2: allegedly didn't show up. It's not to turn around and
Speaker 2: blame the average person. These are our elected officials or
Speaker 2: hopeful elected officials. Do your job to win the people over.
Speaker 2: I I really can't handle the media blaming. And again,
Speaker 2: it's bad business blaming their own audiences for whether someone
Speaker 2: won an election. That's a quick way to get people
Speaker 2: to turn off the TV.
Speaker 1: You're all you're all stupid, We're smart.
Speaker 2: Honestly so on the celebrity endorsement thing and the oprun
Speaker 2: the one million and authentic, right. I think now we
Speaker 2: spent at the last podcast we asked, is the celebrity
Speaker 2: endorsement dead? I think it might now be buried with
Speaker 2: some of these numbers.
Speaker 1: Well, I can't wait to see more will come out,
Speaker 1: like did what did you know there was one hundred
Speaker 1: thousand dollars spent on the call her daddy? Did Alex
Speaker 1: Cooper get a paycheck? Did Beyonce get a paycheck to
Speaker 1: show up? You know? Did all these people?
Speaker 2: Has come out that the concerts were paid for? They
Speaker 2: had different people perform, like Katy Perry, Megan thee Stallion.
Speaker 2: So I think it's come out the concerts were paid
Speaker 2: for and I won. I was like, I kind of
Speaker 2: thought that's something that I don't know the law on it.
Speaker 2: I guess I'm naive. I would have thought that would
Speaker 2: have been something that you would have had to disclose
Speaker 2: if Oprah was paid to do that interview, But I'm wrong.
Speaker 2: I guess I guess you didn't have to and all
Speaker 2: from the beginning.
Speaker 1: I'll be very interested to find out. On the flip side,
Speaker 1: you know, did did the Trump administration or campaign did
Speaker 1: they pay people to do certain things? I did a
Speaker 1: little research and a friend of mine Sage Steele, and
Speaker 1: she won't mind me telling this. I asked her because
Speaker 1: she had been hosting town hall meetings and doing basically
Speaker 1: what Oprah was doing, but for doing it in the
Speaker 1: Trump campaign, for Jade Vance, for Tolsey Gabbard, Danica Patrick,
Speaker 1: all these people. And I asked, you know, are you
Speaker 1: getting paid to do this? And she said, no, absolutely not.
Speaker 1: And she's like, as far as I know, nobody is.
Speaker 1: And I said, are you sure. She's like, as far
Speaker 1: as I know. And that's so it's only one that
Speaker 1: is not scientific. And as a journalist I need at
Speaker 1: least two more sources. But at least that source material
Speaker 1: told me we're here on our own volition because we
Speaker 1: believe in this. And again it goes back to your
Speaker 1: word authentic. These people, whether you like them or not,
Speaker 1: are authentic in their belief and why they're there. And
Speaker 1: that comes across.
Speaker 2: And you know the let me let me make the
Speaker 2: smallest comparison here, huh. If you do an ad on Instagram, right,
Speaker 2: you have to do hashtag ad hashtag sponsored for this product.
Speaker 1: Yeah, good point.
Speaker 2: Why if Oprah is getting paid to do a town
Speaker 2: hall with Kamala Harris, does that not have to be
Speaker 2: disclosed right from the beginning when this is for a
Speaker 2: presidential election for the American people. That kind of blows
Speaker 2: my mind. And I'm not saying that Oprah's job isn't
Speaker 2: worth being paid for. Well, yeah, obviously she's the you know,
Speaker 2: interviewer of our time, right, but it certainly was portrayed
Speaker 2: as if she was just in support of Kamala Harris
Speaker 2: and this is just what she believed in. And if
Speaker 2: I were in that position, if I was going to
Speaker 2: be at the position of I don't know, I would
Speaker 2: have just made it clear from the start, Like I
Speaker 2: would have come out and said, hey, everybody, you know,
Speaker 2: I'm here doing my job tonight. And if she was
Speaker 2: getting paid for it, well then maybe I would have
Speaker 2: taken my job very seriously and asked some really probing questions.
Speaker 1: Well, it's funny you just took kind of my thought
Speaker 1: is like, I really respect Oprah. She's brilliant. Again, whether
Speaker 1: you're a fan of her or not, you cannot deny
Speaker 1: her success. Her success and what she's accomplished she's amazing,
Speaker 1: and I agree with how smart she is, and I
Speaker 1: know she has brilliant people around her. I can't fathom
Speaker 1: that Oprah didn't know this would get out, because you
Speaker 1: have to file this stuff. This all comes out, so
Speaker 1: you know what's going to come out, and it did
Speaker 1: come out. TMZ caught up with Oprah and got a
Speaker 1: comment on this. She looked like she was on her
Speaker 1: morning walk there in Montecito before she was getting in
Speaker 1: her range Rover, and they asked her about taking a
Speaker 1: payment from Harris and receiving this million dollar payout. She
Speaker 1: denied it. She said, absolutely not true. Didn't happen, now, Oprah.
Speaker 1: This is where it gets interesting. Technically, did Kamala Harris
Speaker 1: pay Oprah a million dollars? Well, maybe not, but this
Speaker 1: has definitely happened. Two payments to Winfrey's production company, Harpo Productions,
Speaker 1: can be found under the Harris campaign's disbursements on the
Speaker 1: Federal Election Committee website. This is fact, it did happen.
Speaker 1: The payments of five hundred thousand dollars each were made
Speaker 1: on October fifteenth and are marked as event production. So
Speaker 1: very slippery.
Speaker 2: And here's what my speculation is there. Yes, I think
Speaker 2: Oprah said no, absolutely, not in a again i'mating, but
Speaker 2: I think she's saying that answer and like a get
Speaker 2: kind of around the around the semantics kind of way,
Speaker 2: because you could say, oh, well, that was a production
Speaker 2: fee or like that was like for the setup or whatever.
Speaker 2: But I looked at that town hall, I don't know
Speaker 2: what a million dollars. I mean it was a studio
Speaker 2: with audience members, and I mean, at the end of
Speaker 2: the day, I think that we have to acknowledge. I've
Speaker 2: heard us say this other members of the media podcast
Speaker 2: I listened to. I feel naive, but I was shocked
Speaker 2: to find out that Oprah would even take an event
Speaker 2: fee or whatever you want to call that. I was
Speaker 2: shocked to find out that these people playing concerts for
Speaker 2: the Harris campaign were paid millions of dollars. To Megan
Speaker 2: the Stallion, to Katie Perry. I thought they were doing
Speaker 2: it like for the campaign. I really thought it was
Speaker 2: a oh, we endorse you and we support you kind
Speaker 2: of a thing.
Speaker 1: This report also came out. It has hit several different sites.
Speaker 1: I tried to do a deep dive on this. I've
Speaker 1: looked at several other sources. I can't source it enough
Speaker 1: to call it fact, and you know, I do take
Speaker 1: our journalism serious. But the alleged reports are that Kamala
Speaker 1: Harris gave Beyonce a ten million dollars to speak. She
Speaker 1: didn't sing ten million dollars to speak, and for her endorsement,
Speaker 1: five million went to Megan thee Stallion for the Torking incident,
Speaker 1: three million to Lizzo, one point eight million to eminem
Speaker 1: and a million to Oprah. We can absolutely and equivocally
Speaker 1: verify two five hundred thousand dollars payments did go to
Speaker 1: Harpo production, so that did happen. The rest, I have
Speaker 1: to say alleged, but these are all very specific that
Speaker 1: somebody if it was just made up. It's very specific.
Speaker 1: So it is something that we all have to grapple
Speaker 1: with when you thought that something was so sincere and
Speaker 1: so honest and we were just behind this candidate, and
Speaker 1: then you find millions of dollars and look, over a
Speaker 1: billion dollars went somewhere. We know that she raised over
Speaker 1: a billion dollars and now she's eighteen to twenty million
Speaker 1: dollars in debt, So it just it's such a bad look.
Speaker 2: It's definitely the nail in the coffin on the celebrity endorsement,
Speaker 2: because I think people found celebrity endorsements annoying enough when
Speaker 2: they're watching this multimillionaire tell them how to vote to
Speaker 2: then find out that the multimillionaire was paid to do that,
Speaker 2: to make those appearances and paid with campaign money that
Speaker 2: potentially the average person donated is striking. I think that
Speaker 2: says all we're going to say about whether a celebrity
Speaker 2: endorsement is valuable. And I think people are also finding
Speaker 2: an insincere because you heard celebrities really sounding the alarm
Speaker 2: on what a Trump presidency would mean, making it seem
Speaker 2: like the world's going to collapse if Trump becomes president.
Speaker 2: But you were I'm so worried about the future of
Speaker 2: our country that you were okay with taking a payment
Speaker 2: for it. That doesn't look good. I mean, you and
Speaker 2: I have done many many charity events. I have you. Ever,
Speaker 2: we've never taken money for charity.
Speaker 1: No, I have taken in full disclosure, I've taken money
Speaker 1: for corporate events, for sure, when I'm paid by a
Speaker 1: company to come in and host something that is specifically
Speaker 1: for a company, but never for coming in and for
Speaker 1: a charity.
Speaker 2: Absolutely not, And I sort of thought it was like
Speaker 2: some people take I could never but I kind of assumed, well,
Speaker 2: if this is like a cause, you believe it, it's
Speaker 2: along those same lines.
Speaker 1: Well, just the numbers are so staggering. When you are,
Speaker 1: you know, the party of the working man and the
Speaker 1: inflation and all this, and when there are tens of
Speaker 1: millions of dollars going to celebrities, it's just such a
Speaker 1: gross look. It's a really really bad look. And I
Speaker 1: don't know if the media, that's the tough part, is
Speaker 1: so much the media is slanted. Will they dive in
Speaker 1: and try and unearth this, I know some will. Will
Speaker 1: it get any footing, I don't know, but it's definitely
Speaker 1: as this unravels, and that's what this whole podcast is about.
Speaker 1: As things unravel, that is one of the things that
Speaker 1: is quickly unraveling is these endorsements and the payola that
Speaker 1: went along with it.
Speaker 2: Well, and you know, you have to like bring in
Speaker 2: I mean, interestingly, Trump being a candidate being president for
Speaker 2: the past eight years or whatever it's been has been
Speaker 2: really interesting from the Hollywood perspective because he was a
Speaker 2: member of Hollywood, you know, I.
Speaker 1: Mean He's a Hollywood darling on.
Speaker 2: The Apprentice, in movies like Home Alone two on Saturday
Speaker 2: Night Live for years, very friendly with people like Oprah
Speaker 2: on Oprah's Shosh. There's past clips of her asking him, well,
Speaker 2: would you ever run for president? One day? On the
Speaker 2: view in the past, like he was in that world.
Speaker 2: And what's really interesting to me now when you think
Speaker 2: about like the celebrity endoor factor is Trump? Like when
Speaker 2: I look at the way Trump is a lot of
Speaker 2: the time, my my sense goes off of like he's
Speaker 2: coming at politics from the perspective of an entertainer. Like
Speaker 2: when he's saying a lot of the things he says,
Speaker 2: I'm like, oh, that's because he's used to like creating
Speaker 2: teases for The Apprentice years ago. You know. He speaks
Speaker 2: in these big ways and makes these wild statements that
Speaker 2: get attention. And I'm hearing a lot of media analyze
Speaker 2: now just like how like I think what ended up
Speaker 2: happening actually is the Democratic campaign tried to bring in
Speaker 2: other celebrities, but it's like Trump is a celebrity on
Speaker 2: his own. So it's just interesting the back and forth
Speaker 2: of like trying to combat those two things in the
Speaker 2: earned media that you get out of big moments like
Speaker 2: Beyonce speaking was supposed to be this really big moment,
Speaker 2: but it backfired because I think people thought she would
Speaker 2: going to sing and there were headlines about how she
Speaker 2: was going to sing, and then you kind of have
Speaker 2: Trump just creating these moments for a much cheaper price.
Speaker 2: So it's interesting combating celebrity endorsements with a celebrity candidate.
Speaker 1: Here's the funniest irony of it all. Maybe the most
Speaker 1: authentic celebrity is the one that's being blamed for this,
Speaker 1: and the one that's being ripped on George Clooney. The
Speaker 1: Daily Beast wrote an article blaming George Clooney, or is
Speaker 1: George Clooney to blame? Because back in July, there was
Speaker 1: this huge fundraiser in New York and they were raising
Speaker 1: tens of millions of dollars and George Clooney was on stage,
Speaker 1: had his arm around Biden, was touting Joe Biden, how
Speaker 1: great he is, how great he is. Well in July,
Speaker 1: after that event, George Clooney noticed something. He noticed something
Speaker 1: that we had all noticed for the last two years.
Speaker 1: Joe Biden's in serious mental and physical decline. He's not
Speaker 1: up to the job, according to George Clooney, and he
Speaker 1: wrote an op ed in The New York Times of
Speaker 1: I love you Joe, but it's time to step down.
Speaker 1: And that was the beginning of the end of Joe Biden.
Speaker 1: And it was the rise of Kamala.
Speaker 2: Harris and was a major term.
Speaker 3: Yes, that was a huge because then everybody it legitimized,
Speaker 3: it had the ability to speak their mind and start
Speaker 3: talking about what we've all been witnessing and what we've
Speaker 3: all been watching.
Speaker 1: And then that led to the no primary Kamala Harris
Speaker 1: is installed, et cetera, and the debacle that followed clearly now,
Speaker 1: so that's what's interesting is maybe the most authentic celebrity
Speaker 1: who spoke his mind is now being blamed for the downfall.
Speaker 2: Not only I don't think took any paychecks, but was
Speaker 2: helping raise the money I mean.
Speaker 1: And he has since backed away and walked away from
Speaker 1: all of this.
Speaker 2: Well, I haven't really heard from him. There's an article
Speaker 2: in Variety. The headline is stop blaming celebrity endorsements for
Speaker 2: Kamala Harris loss. We need to hear from artists now
Speaker 2: more than ever. Now, I'll be honest, I started reading
Speaker 2: this article and it is so long, and I just
Speaker 2: couldn't get through it. I read it as well, Well,
Speaker 2: then maybe if you read the whole thing, maybe you
Speaker 2: can weigh more.
Speaker 1: For you, it doesn't get better read it, It gets
Speaker 1: worse as you read it.
Speaker 2: It just wasn't that captivating. But if I just look
Speaker 2: at the headline, I agree with the first half of
Speaker 2: the headline. Stop blaming celebrity endorsements for Kamala Harris loss.
Speaker 2: Blame a million other things. Blame the way the campaign
Speaker 2: was run, the way that they use their money, how
Speaker 2: long she had, the administration she was coming out of.
Speaker 2: There are like a million other things to blame before that.
Speaker 2: But we need to hear from artists now more than ever.
Speaker 2: I mean, obviously, Variety is a Hollywood publication, That's what
Speaker 2: it does, so they're gonna it's in Variety's interest to
Speaker 2: protect me artists because that's who they cover. But I
Speaker 2: don't know if we need to hear from artists now
Speaker 2: more than ever. I think that what this election has
Speaker 2: proven is that the celebrity endorsement does not help. Again,
Speaker 2: Kamala Harris had Taylor Swift, the biggest artist in the world,
Speaker 2: endorsing her she lost in a landslide. It does not help,
Speaker 2: and I don't think it helps celebrities themselves. I don't
Speaker 2: what career benefit are you getting out of this.
Speaker 1: If I could rewrite the headline for Variety, and Lord
Speaker 1: knows they need help, I would say, don't blame celebrities
Speaker 1: for this. There is zero blame. And George Clooney, you're
Speaker 1: up there, man. You have no blame, no culpability in this.
Speaker 1: We need to hear and see your art. Yes, more
Speaker 1: than ever, art needs to be created the theater, music, comedy.
Speaker 1: We've never This goes back to summizing this entire thing
Speaker 1: and how we started this. We've never needed your art more.
Speaker 1: Stephen Colbert, Jimmy Kimmel, John Stewart, we want you to
Speaker 1: promote Perry Beyonce, Oprah. We've never needed your talents more
Speaker 1: this country. One of the things we're known for, and
Speaker 1: you actually brought this up the other day, of the
Speaker 1: shining beacons on the Hill of America is Hollywood movies.
Speaker 1: Everywhere I've traveled around the world with the Bachelor Bacherette,
Speaker 1: we kind of represent that right with they think, oh Hollywood,
Speaker 1: Hollywood's here. It's no matter where you go. John Wayne
Speaker 1: was huge. People still talk about him. Cline Eastwood, our
Speaker 1: movie stars are huge, Tom Cruise, and I mean that's
Speaker 1: why our movies are massive in China, they're massive in Russia.
Speaker 1: We are the arts of the world. And Variety came
Speaker 1: so close to writing a good article. But that is
Speaker 1: what I would have taken. That is, we've never needed
Speaker 1: your talents and your art more. Go back on stage,
Speaker 1: go back. We don't need you to rail against half
Speaker 1: the country. We don't need you to rail against the president.
Speaker 1: And I'm not saying shut up and dribble, shut up
Speaker 1: and seeing. I respect your opinions, I respect your feelings,
Speaker 1: but at the same time, go kick ass at what
Speaker 1: you do, and we love you for that.
Speaker 2: What you're talking about is something we learned in journalist school,
Speaker 2: which is show, don't tell show the story, don't tell
Speaker 2: people how to feel. And I think it applies to
Speaker 2: journalism and it applies to movies, film, TV music. Quote
Speaker 2: from this headline. We need to hear from artists now
Speaker 2: more than ever. I think we need to hear from
Speaker 2: them with their art. That's what you're saying. It's I
Speaker 2: think what this has proven is people don't feel people
Speaker 2: will feel so much from a Beyonce song. They did
Speaker 2: not feel so much from Beyonce standing on that stage
Speaker 2: for Kamala Harris and telling them because they know, at
Speaker 2: the end of the day, this is someone who's a
Speaker 2: multi millionaire, who's living a totally different life than me.
Speaker 2: And it applies, and you can be powerful and you
Speaker 2: can affect change with your art, with your music. In
Speaker 2: all those ways.
Speaker 1: Times of great strife and oppression and anger and war
Speaker 1: have always well, it's always created the best art. Some
Speaker 1: of the best art came out of the World War
Speaker 1: two era, the like you think of like the artists
Speaker 1: and the people, the great art of Europe and all that.
Speaker 1: A lot of that came from that time. And it's
Speaker 1: always been like that. Look at the great music that
Speaker 1: came out of the rebellion and civil rights and the
Speaker 1: hippie era and all that. So much great music that
Speaker 1: kids are still singing today. They may not know what
Speaker 1: it stands for, but great music comes on right and
Speaker 1: you think, oh man, this is so write music. Taylor
Speaker 1: Swift writes the greatest breakup songs ever. Her greatest gift
Speaker 1: has been picking the wrong guy and writing music about it.
Speaker 1: That's her brilliance, right, write about this, Go make a
Speaker 1: great song and let us listen to it, and let
Speaker 1: us empathize and sympathize with you through your art. And
Speaker 1: again I'm not saying don't ever speak your mind.
Speaker 2: Well, Hollywood wasn't always like this, right, it used to be.
Speaker 2: It wasn't that long ago that. Like when Michael Moore
Speaker 2: got up and I forget which awards show and he
Speaker 2: critiqued Bush, people were booing him from the audience and
Speaker 2: people were like, this isn't what our awards shows are about,
Speaker 2: and it's gotten.
Speaker 1: So now if you don't do.
Speaker 2: That, if you don't do that, then you're messing up
Speaker 2: your silence is definitely and I think we've had enough
Speaker 2: awards shows and ratings and all that to prove that
Speaker 2: is not what people at home want. They want to
Speaker 2: escape with this or they want to feel thought provoked,
Speaker 2: but like able to sit and discuss those thoughts, not
Speaker 2: to be told how to take the arts, not to
Speaker 2: be told how to feel. And like I said, that's
Speaker 2: a phrase from journalism show don't tell. I think it's
Speaker 2: the same with the media. I think that right now
Speaker 2: the media needs to take a step back, ask what
Speaker 2: their audience wants, not what they want to tell their audience.
Speaker 2: And I think that media personalities have gotten kind of
Speaker 2: on that level of like movie stars and singers and stuff,
Speaker 2: in terms of their disconnection from their audience. This week
Speaker 2: on MSNBC, Joe Scarborough starts talking about the results and
Speaker 2: they're talking about this thing. It's like he can't believe
Speaker 2: that people voted in part because of how expensive groceries are.
Speaker 2: And his wife, who co hosts a show with him,
Speaker 2: I always say.
Speaker 1: Her name on it, don't make it present. I don't
Speaker 1: know if they're still together.
Speaker 2: Oh I thought they were. I don't be wrong.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, I know they were married at one time.
Speaker 1: I don't know if they still are.
Speaker 2: But but she goes, well, butter costs seven dollars right now,
Speaker 2: and he goes what he goes, what is it made
Speaker 2: of gold? And I'm like, dude, you just outed yourself.
Speaker 2: You don't even You're sitting here talking about how you
Speaker 2: can't believe people voted based on groceries and you don't
Speaker 2: know how much the groceries costs. Like, do their research,
Speaker 2: do the work, Be in touch with your audience, know
Speaker 2: your audience and what they want. That is part of
Speaker 2: your job. If you want people to tune into you,
Speaker 2: then be in touch with them. And I think that
Speaker 2: media personalities have gotten so overpaid and out of touch
Speaker 2: clearly that that's part of the problem. Yeah, so in authenticity,
Speaker 2: a lack of connection to your audience, a lack of trust.
Speaker 2: I mean, we were talking about how Rogan and Vaughn
Speaker 2: were saying that Kamala Harris's team wanted editing power and
Speaker 2: they wouldn't give it. I go back to that CBS
Speaker 2: sixty minutes interview. I would have loved to see CBS
Speaker 2: interview Trump as well, and I would have loved for
Speaker 2: CBS to air both interviews unedited or as we all
Speaker 2: wanted them to do. After the controversy about the Harris
Speaker 2: interview and how it was edited came out, drop the
Speaker 2: full transcript. This election has also clearly changed the game
Speaker 2: on when you have podcasters doing three hour interviews with
Speaker 2: presidential candidates, the media is going to have to step
Speaker 2: up the game their game with that and be authentic.
Speaker 1: You know, it makes me think of call her Daddy.
Speaker 1: Was that edited and who had the editing rights over that?
Speaker 1: And all of all the things she did. Uh. There
Speaker 1: is a lot to learn and take from this, but
Speaker 1: again I'll urge I'll start with the late night guys.
Speaker 1: Go on the show tonight and be funny. Go do
Speaker 1: you you guys are good? You got you got the
Speaker 1: job for a reason years ago? Remember that, Remember how
Speaker 1: funny you used to be? The bits on Kimmel that
Speaker 1: I had a part of many of those.
Speaker 2: And then remember when SNL years ago did a they
Speaker 2: did a bit like the Whole Sketch where they mocked
Speaker 2: the debate, but they had they were in personing both
Speaker 2: Trump and Clinton. I remember that being really funny.
Speaker 1: I merry and we watched, like many people, we watched
Speaker 1: Saturday Night Live, and I'm like, oh, you know, Bill
Speaker 1: Burr was on, and I think he's really funny. He's
Speaker 1: pretty clever. He tried to go both sides. I think
Speaker 1: he's pretty you know, down the middle with his comedy.
Speaker 1: But I was watching and I was like, okay again,
Speaker 1: like the weekend update, like this is going to be funny,
Speaker 1: Like this again, there's the low hanging fruit is just there.
Speaker 1: The writers can just have so much fun with this
Speaker 1: and we can all laugh. Oh, and it just missed
Speaker 1: so poorly. Go back to doing what you do.
Speaker 2: So well, making fun of everybody, making fun.
Speaker 1: Of everybody, and be funny and be talented and show
Speaker 1: your art off and be authentic. Be authentic.
Speaker 2: If anyone is looking for some new media sources to follow,
Speaker 2: I will say I've used Twitter quite a lot just
Speaker 2: following the news on the selection, the selection cycle, probably
Speaker 2: more than anything. One person I've found is Mark Halprin.
Speaker 2: He was I think on ABC at ABC and maybe
Speaker 2: at time for a long time. He's now launched his
Speaker 2: own thing, but he was the first person to break
Speaker 2: the news that Biden was stepping down. So he's deeply
Speaker 2: sourced in Washington, and I always felt like he was
Speaker 2: as I was watching him, I felt like he was
Speaker 2: giving pretty middle of the road, like solid old school
Speaker 2: type of reporting. So just to shout out to Mark
Speaker 2: Calburn because I thought he did a really good job
Speaker 2: covering it.
Speaker 1: You know, I listen to Breaking Points as well. I
Speaker 1: think they do a good job. They kind of go
Speaker 1: back and forth, they have really good interviews, and they
Speaker 1: really cover both sides.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, but we both like that podcast.
Speaker 1: It's just good. There's media out there, and again I
Speaker 1: think that's the big problem is even on election night
Speaker 1: when we saw such drastic numbers. I actually had the numbers.
Speaker 1: I never really got into how big of a fall
Speaker 1: it was, but it was really a drastic turn of events.
Speaker 1: According to Nielsen, there was How crazy is this? There's
Speaker 1: forty two million people overall watching the election?
Speaker 2: Does this mean broadcasting the cable network was broadcasting cable.
Speaker 1: That's down from fifty seven million who watched in twenty twenty.
Speaker 1: That is down from seventy one million that watched in
Speaker 1: twenty sixteen. Wow, that is thirty million, almost thirty million viewers.
Speaker 1: You've lost, and a lot of that can be attributed
Speaker 1: to the decline of TV in general, terrestrial TV. But
Speaker 1: there's other options like you and I like, we listen
Speaker 1: to other people now.
Speaker 2: Well, no, I think that's exactly it. I don't think
Speaker 2: those numbers being down as a reflection of people not
Speaker 2: caring about the election.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think to the contrary, more people care and
Speaker 1: more people are seeking out voices that they want to
Speaker 1: listen to or can listen to and feel like they're
Speaker 1: getting news.
Speaker 2: And if I can actually even specify when you said
Speaker 2: a little more, to be clear, I don't think it's
Speaker 2: that people are seeking out like alternate voices for different opinions.
Speaker 2: I think it's alternate sources and they're looking for more
Speaker 2: of what they can trust. That's just my gut on
Speaker 2: what it is. I think those numbers being down as
Speaker 2: a reflection of I don't trust the TV media anymore
Speaker 2: and they're seeking their news out elsewhere. Now, I will
Speaker 2: say a lot of the Twitter news like it's sort
Speaker 2: of dependent on big media because a lot of you
Speaker 2: got to find it well well, I mean a lot
Speaker 2: of Twitter news and coverage is like accounts that pull
Speaker 2: little clips from CNN or MSNBC or whatever, and then
Speaker 2: that spurs discussion. Then they add on reportings. So it's
Speaker 2: almost like the new media needs the old media to
Speaker 2: have something to talk about a little bit. But I
Speaker 2: do think those numbers being down as reflective of people
Speaker 2: using podcasts, using Twitter, using newsletters for other forms of coverage.
Speaker 1: Yes, it was fascinating. It was fascinating to see all
Speaker 1: this play out of the last week, even since we
Speaker 1: talked about it the first time.
Speaker 2: Well, I'm predicting. I think we're going to see some
Speaker 2: layoffs in media because those numbers are way down and
Speaker 2: you can always rely on an election for numbers to
Speaker 2: be up. Well, now, yeah, my prediction would be we
Speaker 2: see some layoffs happening.
Speaker 1: This is their super Bowl, this is this is the
Speaker 1: new super Bowl. Yeah, your super Bowl is over now
Speaker 1: for another I mean two years. You have you have
Speaker 1: the midterms. That's not that's like the playoffs. You know,
Speaker 1: the election of the President of the United States is
Speaker 1: the super Bowl for news and you lost. Right, that
Speaker 1: was a big l You'd have to look at it
Speaker 1: as far as advertisers go, money raise, getting the key
Speaker 1: demographics in it was a big failure. And if you
Speaker 1: are not as a news director and a president of
Speaker 1: a network reorganizing, rethinking, figuring out how we can adjust
Speaker 1: course to the wins of change, you're going to be obsolete.
Speaker 1: The late night shows, you are almost already obsolete. You
Speaker 1: got a course correct here, Try something different because what's
Speaker 1: going on is not working. And I want these people
Speaker 1: to succeed. I'm a big fan of a rising tide
Speaker 1: lifts all boats. I want Jimmy Kimmel to succeed. I
Speaker 1: don't dislike Jimmy. I don't just I've never met Kobeir.
Speaker 1: I'm sure he's fine, but I you know, I like
Speaker 1: it when TV people succeed, because then we all succeed
Speaker 1: in this business and more people give money to advertisers,
Speaker 1: et cetera. So I don't root against any of these people.
Speaker 1: Same thing for the news industry. I want my friends
Speaker 1: in the news industry to succeed. But gosh, you got
Speaker 1: to do better. You can't keep you know, it's that
Speaker 1: old definition of insanity. You can't keep doing the same
Speaker 1: thing and expect to different results. And we've been doing
Speaker 1: the same thing now for the better part of a
Speaker 1: decade and we're getting the same result, and that result
Speaker 1: is not good. So let's change. Let's be authentic, and
Speaker 1: let's find our voices and find our talent again, because
Speaker 1: it's out there and that's what we're yearning for. Thank
Speaker 1: you for listening, Thank you for being here. We'll do
Speaker 1: it again next time because we have a lot more
Speaker 1: to talk about. Thanks for listening. Follow us on Instagram
Speaker 1: at the most dramatic pod ever and make sure to
Speaker 1: write us a review and leave us five stars. I'll
Speaker 1: talk to you next time.