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Speaker 1: Family Secrets is a production of I Heart Radio. That

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Speaker 1: was it the anti climax of my whole parented life.

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Speaker 1: Mom reacted as expected. She kicked her mistake under the

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Speaker 1: couch and kept moving. If I wanted to keep a parent,

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Speaker 1: I needed to forgive and accept her as she was

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Speaker 1: a sixty year old woman with an enormous capacity to

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Speaker 1: love in the present but never reconcile the past. I

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Speaker 1: cut my losses and moved forward. That's Nicole J. George's.

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Speaker 1: Nicole is an illustrator, writer, zinster, podcaster, and educator. She's

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Speaker 1: also the author of the graphic memoir calling Dr Laura,

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Speaker 1: a story about discovering a secret hidden from her all

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Speaker 1: her life that had to do with the bedrock of

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Speaker 1: her identity. I'm Danny Shapiro and this is family Secrets,

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Speaker 1: the secrets that are kept from us, the secrets we

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Speaker 1: keep from others, and the secrets we keep from ourselves.

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Speaker 1: I grew up everywhere. I was born in Ohio. I

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Speaker 1: was raised with my mom's side of the family, which

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Speaker 1: is all Syrian, and I had a Lebanese stepgrandmother, and

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Speaker 1: so I grew up with a big family and a

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Speaker 1: lot of Lebanese food. I lived with my mom, and

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Speaker 1: I lived with my two sisters, who were ten and

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Speaker 1: twelve years older than me, and we quickly moved from

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Speaker 1: Ohio to Maryland, and then from Maryland we moved to Florida,

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Speaker 1: and then we moved to Kansas. And so at a

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Speaker 1: certain point, my sisters moved away and it was just

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Speaker 1: me with my mom and at that point various step

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Speaker 1: dads and I just really communed with animals. I stayed

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Speaker 1: home all the time. I never went to school. I

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Speaker 1: watched TV, made clothes for my stepped animals, trying to

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Speaker 1: teach my turtle how to read, trying to you know,

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Speaker 1: dress the dogs and clothes. I was like watching Phoebe's

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Speaker 1: playhouse and then living my Pope's playhouse fantasy. What was

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Speaker 1: the reason for all the moving? We moved a lot

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Speaker 1: for men. My mom was always kind of orbiting around

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Speaker 1: whatever man was my stepfather or was, you know, was

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Speaker 1: auditioning to be my next stepfather, And so we moved

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Speaker 1: for other people's jobs. Generally, my extended family all lives

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Speaker 1: in Ohio, you know, so that's that was where we

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Speaker 1: kept coming back to, or that's where and that's where

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Speaker 1: I was born. But then everywhere else we moved was

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Speaker 1: for a step dad or someone my mom was with.

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Speaker 1: Tell me a bit about your mom of your childhood.

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Speaker 1: What was she like. My mom's very charismatic, you know,

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Speaker 1: she smiled all the time. She was a motivational speaker.

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Speaker 1: At some point, she was also an eighties businesswoman. She

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Speaker 1: had a huge life with a lot of things. When

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Speaker 1: I was growing up, her temper to me was unpredictable,

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Speaker 1: and she was always trying to keep it together and

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Speaker 1: keep various secrets together from my stepdad's or whoever I

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Speaker 1: was dating. There was always something that we had to

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Speaker 1: be conspiring about to keep from people, whether it be

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Speaker 1: something about money or like don't tell your stepdad you

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Speaker 1: haven't been to school this week, or things like that.

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Speaker 1: You know, my mom was very warm. I've never had

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Speaker 1: a home where, you know, someone didn't say I love you,

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Speaker 1: or didn't give me a hug, or didn't you know. Food,

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Speaker 1: I think is one of my original love languages. My

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Speaker 1: mom was like always like rolling grape leaves and making

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Speaker 1: me food. And when I went vegan as a teenager,

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Speaker 1: her trying to figure out how to make vegan food.

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Speaker 1: She's always more than willing to do all of that stuff,

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Speaker 1: and yet I always had this feeling of being de

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Speaker 1: prioritized in favor of the men that were around, and

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Speaker 1: feeling like I just really wanted some time alone with

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Speaker 1: her and I couldn't get it. Her dance card was full.

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Speaker 1: When she would ask you to keep her secrets or

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Speaker 1: you know, not tell the truth in the service of

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Speaker 1: some kind of secret, was it an attempt to kind

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Speaker 1: of kind of bond with you, like you and she

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Speaker 1: were this team. What do you think that was? Absolutely,

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Speaker 1: we were co conspirators. We were a team. There was

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Speaker 1: some kind of the thing of, you know, us together.

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Speaker 1: It was almost like we were embattled, like us together

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Speaker 1: against Bill in the blank so against the truancy officer,

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Speaker 1: against my stepdad, against whomever from the outside wanted to

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Speaker 1: look into our home and we didn't want them to

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Speaker 1: know what was going on. There was kind of like

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Speaker 1: a best friend quality, and there was also a co

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Speaker 1: conspirator bonding sort of vibe. And also some of these

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Speaker 1: secrets were positioned to keep me safe or to keep

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Speaker 1: me out of farms, like I had done something wrong,

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Speaker 1: Like I had horrible stomach problems as a kid, and

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Speaker 1: I had stomach problems in particular ways that like there

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Speaker 1: was like I had the kinds of things that I

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Speaker 1: feel I could have been cleared up very quickly, but

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Speaker 1: lasted for a decade and I never went to school,

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Speaker 1: And so my mom would basically be like, Okay, well,

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Speaker 1: well since you didn't go to school all week, we

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Speaker 1: have to hide this from your step dad so you

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Speaker 1: don't get in trouble or just it was like I

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Speaker 1: had to keep myself as secret. I had to keep

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Speaker 1: you know, the fact that I was like soiling myself secret,

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Speaker 1: or the fact that this problem was happening secret. I

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Speaker 1: had to keep like the financial situation of our home secret.

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Speaker 1: There was just a lot of things is to keep

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Speaker 1: track of. It isn't until Nicole is an adult that

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Speaker 1: she comes to realize that there is a term, a

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Speaker 1: true medical definition for the crushing symptoms that plagued her

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Speaker 1: as a child, and co priceis which is often caused

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Speaker 1: by emotional distress or separation anxiety. The hallmark of it,

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Speaker 1: at least as I was understanding it, is, you know,

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Speaker 1: you had this terrible stomach trouble and just trouble going

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Speaker 1: to the bathroom. Really like serious stuff that seems like

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Speaker 1: it comes up most often with children who are like

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Speaker 1: really dealing with something that they don't understand. I don't

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Speaker 1: mean the physical part. I mean the psychological and emotional part,

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Speaker 1: Like there's something about what's going on that's just hidden

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Speaker 1: and I don't know. I mean, does that make sense

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Speaker 1: to you? Yeah, it makes perfect sense. It feels like,

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Speaker 1: you know, as far as I can tell, And from

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Speaker 1: researching it and being in therapy for a very long

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Speaker 1: time and talking to people, it feels like, either you

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Speaker 1: know something, it seems like a psychological problem, and it

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Speaker 1: was being treated like a physical problem. It was being

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Speaker 1: treated unreliably, so we would never see the same doctor twice.

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Speaker 1: It was treated unliably as a physical problem or a

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Speaker 1: failing on my part, like why don't you just go

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Speaker 1: to the bathroom. But I think it was a psychological

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Speaker 1: issue that started happening when I was a toddler. I

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Speaker 1: mean it interests me in terms of the subject of

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Speaker 1: this podcast two, because there's so much that I think

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Speaker 1: happens to children when something really significant is being kept

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Speaker 1: from them and they don't know it. You know, they don't.

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Speaker 1: I shouldn't say they, I should say we, you know,

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Speaker 1: we we don't know it. But yet it's kind of

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Speaker 1: in the air all around us, like some sort of

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Speaker 1: like invisible poisonous gas. And when that happens and there's

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Speaker 1: no ex pla nation for it, the child, even like

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Speaker 1: really young children, just start feeling like there must be

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Speaker 1: something really really wrong with them, and they turn it

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Speaker 1: against themselves. And that's like it's one of the most

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Speaker 1: toxic elements of a secret being withheld. Tell me also

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Speaker 1: a little bit about your relationship with your too much

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Speaker 1: older sisters, like both when you were a child and

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Speaker 1: then once they left home and you were left to

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Speaker 1: send kind of for yourself, was your mom, and they

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Speaker 1: were out of the house by the time you were,

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Speaker 1: you know what, like eight years old. Yeah, my sisters

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Speaker 1: went to college when I was six, and then when

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Speaker 1: I was eight, my middle sister, Meg, she pretty much

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Speaker 1: raised me. It was kind of like my sisters had

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Speaker 1: like a teen pregnancy. When my mom had me, she

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Speaker 1: was very preoccupied with other things, and so my sister,

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Speaker 1: who was ten years older than me, ended up, you know,

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Speaker 1: taking me to the grocery store with her, picking me

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Speaker 1: up from school, making sure I brushed my teeth, putting

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Speaker 1: me to bed. She was entirely responsible for me more

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Speaker 1: or less, and my mom kind of drilled into her

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Speaker 1: that she was a big drag and drilled into me like,

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Speaker 1: I just my mom will let me do whatever I wanted.

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Speaker 1: So if I wanted to eat a bunch of candy,

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Speaker 1: if I threw a fit, if I was being a

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Speaker 1: brat about something, my mom would be like, oh God,

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Speaker 1: just give it to me. Who wants to hear that.

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Speaker 1: But my sister Meg was the one that had to

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Speaker 1: be kind of the uptight one and be like, no,

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Speaker 1: this is here structure, here's rules, here's boundaries. And so

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Speaker 1: when my sister's left, it was devastating. It's actually something

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Speaker 1: I'm still processing and therapy, is how heartbroken I was

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Speaker 1: when my oldest sister Liz went to college and when

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Speaker 1: my middle sister Meg went to college, and Meg had

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Speaker 1: to be both of them had to be convinced to

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Speaker 1: go to college. They both had survivor's guilt, and Meg

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Speaker 1: in particular almost didn't go to college because she didn't

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Speaker 1: want to leave me behind as I was. You know,

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Speaker 1: at the time, I had a pretty horrible stepdad who

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Speaker 1: was emotional, who was abusive to my mom, and my

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Speaker 1: sister just couldn't bear to as my guardian, my longtime guardian.

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Speaker 1: She couldn't bear to leave me there, but somebody convinced

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Speaker 1: her that she needed to save herself. How many step

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Speaker 1: dads did you have? In all you know, I only had.

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Speaker 1: I had two step dads from what I can put together.

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Speaker 1: My mom left my dad to date a Saudi Arabian prince.

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Speaker 1: They did not get married. He was around for a

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Speaker 1: couple of years with his entourage, and then she whenever

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Speaker 1: he left. I had a stepdad in Florida, and then

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Speaker 1: I had a stepdad directly after that, who my mom

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Speaker 1: was still with to this day. Where was your father?

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Speaker 1: What had happened to him? It was my understanding that

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Speaker 1: he had died of colon cancer when I was a baby,

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Speaker 1: and this kind of got fleshed out by my mom

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Speaker 1: over the years that he died when I was a

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Speaker 1: year and a half old. He was thirty three years old,

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Speaker 1: and it was very sad. But side note, he was

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Speaker 1: a con man, and he was very funny, and he

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Speaker 1: came from maybe a bad home. Those are all the

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Speaker 1: things I knew. So every time as a kid, when

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Speaker 1: I had stomach problems and I would go see a gastronologist,

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Speaker 1: I would lead with that. My mom wouldn't say it,

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Speaker 1: but I would be like, oh, and by the way, yeah,

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Speaker 1: my dad died of calling cancer. It's like a you know,

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Speaker 1: an eight year old to be like, maybe that's what's

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Speaker 1: wrong with me. That was my understanding for a very

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Speaker 1: long time, and you're much older. Sisters also backed that

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Speaker 1: story up. Yes, my sisters and my mom back that

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Speaker 1: story up. And essentially people just really didn't talk about him.

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Speaker 1: My mom once mentioned we were an a vintage store

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Speaker 1: and she grabbed like a black hat with a veil

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Speaker 1: and said, I wore a hat just like this to

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Speaker 1: your dad's funeral. It was so sad. I think she

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Speaker 1: was just freestyling there. And no one in my family

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Speaker 1: ever mentioned my dad. Ever. There was one time I

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Speaker 1: can remember in my entire life where anyone else mentioned him,

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Speaker 1: and it was an old woman at my grandfather's birthday party,

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Speaker 1: because ninetieth birthday party, and she came up to me

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Speaker 1: and she said, oh, you're you're David's daughter. And I

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Speaker 1: had not even heard his name come out of a

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Speaker 1: different person's mouth aside from my mom pretty much ever,

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Speaker 1: and so I was fascinated, and she quickly got shooed

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Speaker 1: away from me. We'll be right back. When Nicole is

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Speaker 1: twenty two years old, a woman she's dating named Verona

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Speaker 1: gifts her as a belated birthday present with a palm

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Speaker 1: reading with a psychic who she finds where all good

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Speaker 1: psychics can be found in the back of the local newspaper.

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Speaker 1: I went to the palm reader, and she said, you

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Speaker 1: don't get along with your mother, I can tell from

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Speaker 1: your hand, and you should talk to your father more often.

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Speaker 1: And I said, I can't talk to him more often

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Speaker 1: because he's dead. And she said, maybe the man you

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Speaker 1: think is your father is dead, but your real father

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Speaker 1: is very much alive. And everything else she had said

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Speaker 1: had been such nonsense. She had said so many things

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Speaker 1: about me marrying an older man and having three pregnancies

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Speaker 1: with two children, and she said, all this stuff, that's

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Speaker 1: it seems fantastical, like you would imagine. And then she

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Speaker 1: said this thing, and it just rung a bell that

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Speaker 1: I couldn't unring. All the pieces, all the things that

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Speaker 1: I had worked so hard in my life to kind

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Speaker 1: of try and figure out, like why is everyone kind

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Speaker 1: of looking at each other over my heads? Why is

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Speaker 1: everyone talking around something? Is there something wrong with me?

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Speaker 1: There were so many things that I had supposed that

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Speaker 1: it was that people weren't telling me that this Tom

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Speaker 1: Reader saying this, it felt entirely plausible, Like it was

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Speaker 1: crystal clear that I was like, this is very possible. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's such an amazing that's such an amazing thing, right,

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Speaker 1: Like there's you know, you grew up in a house

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Speaker 1: where there were all of these secrets, but they were

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Speaker 1: like secrets in a minor key. They were not big,

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Speaker 1: gigantic secrets. They were don't tell your stepfather this, or

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Speaker 1: tell the truant officer that, or they were not like

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Speaker 1: the secret. And and then suddenly, now there's this possibility

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Speaker 1: that I guess really only occurs to you for the

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Speaker 1: first time. I mean, why would one ever have the thought,

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Speaker 1: you know, maybe my father, who I've been told died

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Speaker 1: of colon cancer when I was a year and a

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Speaker 1: half old, is really alive. You wouldn't have that thought.

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Speaker 1: Because we believe what we're told as children, then that

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Speaker 1: forms our identity, Like those just become the tent poles

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Speaker 1: and the pillars of the way that we grow up,

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Speaker 1: and we sort of form ourselves around that, even if

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Speaker 1: it doesn't really make sense. The fortune teller also tells

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Speaker 1: you two not tell anyone, to keep it to yourself,

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Speaker 1: right m hm? She said, yeah, whatever I tell you

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Speaker 1: in this room, it's nothing personal, and you need to

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Speaker 1: keep it to yourself for twenty four hours. And that

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Speaker 1: my friend and I we kind of exploded out the

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Speaker 1: door of this woman's place. It was a two for one.

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Speaker 1: So my friend also got her palm read and we

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Speaker 1: exploded out the door, and just as soon as we

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Speaker 1: hit the street, we were like, oh my god, what

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Speaker 1: does she tell you? And we told each other everything,

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Speaker 1: all of her like funny predictions about us being straight

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Speaker 1: and marrying these men and all this stuff. But I

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Speaker 1: didn't tell her. I didn't tell Verona about my dad.

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Speaker 1: I didn't tell anybody about it for a really long time.

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Speaker 1: I couldn't. It was too big. It was what was

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Speaker 1: like a Shortinger's cat. It was just like that box.

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Speaker 1: I just couldn't touch it right away. How did that

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Speaker 1: sit with you during that like nearly a year where

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Speaker 1: you didn't tell anyone that this had happened. Were you

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Speaker 1: thinking about it? Were you like lying awake at night

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Speaker 1: and wondering about it? Or did you kind of pack

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Speaker 1: it away a little bit? Of both. I kind of

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Speaker 1: would only allow myself to entertain it here and there,

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Speaker 1: because you know, I had just started going to therapy

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Speaker 1: I think the year before for the first time in

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Speaker 1: my life, and I had even started I had only

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Speaker 1: even started acknowledging that my upbringing was not normal very recently.

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Speaker 1: I was very young, and so I would think about

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Speaker 1: it sometimes at night or when I was alone. Otherwise,

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Speaker 1: I just kept myself very busy. I kept I felt

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Speaker 1: very busy with a lot of friends. I lived in

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Speaker 1: a house with a lot of roommates. I did volunteer work.

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Speaker 1: I had like two jobs at nonprofits. I hosted karaoke,

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Speaker 1: I just did There were so much I just packed

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Speaker 1: my days so full that there I really only processed

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Speaker 1: it a little bit in my diary. I've always kept

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Speaker 1: a diary, and sometimes it's the only place where my

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Speaker 1: reality has been reflected back to me. Especially when I

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Speaker 1: was growing up in such a chaotic way, that was

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Speaker 1: the only place where I dared to even talk about it.

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Speaker 1: Did you go back and revisit that diary later? I have, Well,

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Speaker 1: you know, a weird thing about me is that I

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Speaker 1: have the compulsion to publish everything, and so at that point,

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Speaker 1: I was doing a zine that was essentially just photocopy

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Speaker 1: diary entries. So I actually was just looking the other

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Speaker 1: day back at a zine I did in my early twenties,

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Speaker 1: like a fancy and a diary comic, and it has

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Speaker 1: me writing kind of cryptically about this secret and kind

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Speaker 1: of this like deep melancholy I felt. And everything was cryptic,

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Speaker 1: everything was kind of vague, everything was kind of sad.

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Speaker 1: But it just was like past, present and future, like

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Speaker 1: all here in the same moment as how I felt

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Speaker 1: about it. I felt overwhelming. And I had drawn some

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Speaker 1: picture of a vintage like a woman from the forties

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Speaker 1: that I had found in a magazine. I had drawn

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Speaker 1: this picture of her with kind of like a like

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Speaker 1: a scar across her head. I was very into drawing

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Speaker 1: people with like scars across their heads, like visible scars,

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Speaker 1: visible sewn up wounds. And that's how I expressed it

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Speaker 1: at the time. Wow, that's so interesting without knowing that

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Speaker 1: that's what you were doing, right, Yeah, it was the

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Speaker 1: you know, the outer expression of something that was so

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Speaker 1: internal that you couldn't really touch it, sort of like

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Speaker 1: a live wire inside of you. So you then end

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Speaker 1: up as happens like as one does when a secret

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Speaker 1: has been Like in this kind of pressure cooker of

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Speaker 1: being unspoken, you end up blurting out the story to

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Speaker 1: pretty much a stranger. Yeah. I didn't talk to anyone

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Speaker 1: in my life about I didn't talk to my sisters

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Speaker 1: about it. I didn't talk to my closest friends who

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Speaker 1: had known me. I just I was on essentially a

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Speaker 1: first date with a stranger, and I it was so

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Speaker 1: awkward that I just and I just was looking for

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Speaker 1: something to say, and so I told her this. I said, oh,

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Speaker 1: you know, I have a crazy story. A poem reader

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Speaker 1: told me my dad was alive what I've been told

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Speaker 1: he was dead my whole life, and she was like, what,

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Speaker 1: I feel like I told her almost to avoid emotional accountability,

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Speaker 1: because it's the kind of thing if I told one

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Speaker 1: of my friends, they would pause and reflect back how

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Speaker 1: hard they must be, and I would have to have

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Speaker 1: a feeling and before very vulnerable. And so it was

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Speaker 1: telling a stranger who doesn't have that relationship or reflection

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Speaker 1: of you. There was something about it that felt like

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Speaker 1: I was I don't know if I if I I

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Speaker 1: was almost removed from it, like trying to use it

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Speaker 1: as like a parlor trick instead of a very deep,

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Speaker 1: sad possibility. So how how long is it then before

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Speaker 1: you end up approaching one of your sisters and asking,

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Speaker 1: you know, so his dad really dead? And it was

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Speaker 1: at least another year, I think. So that person and

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Speaker 1: I ended up dating seriously, and she kept urging me

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Speaker 1: to ask about it. She was holding me accountable to

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Speaker 1: ask about it and to think about it, and that,

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Speaker 1: you know, maybe it was something I should consider finding

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Speaker 1: out if it was nagging at me that it might

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Speaker 1: be true, which it was, and so I asked my sister.

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Speaker 1: I asked my oldest sister, Liz. She had been kind

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Speaker 1: of cryptically telling my girlfriend that she had something she

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00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:18,159
Speaker 1: really wanted to tell me and that she loved me

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Speaker 1: a lot. This was happening simultaneously. She didn't know that

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Speaker 1: I knew, but she was like, I love Nicole so much.

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Speaker 1: I have something I really need to tell her, and

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Speaker 1: I was giving me a lot of anxiety, and so

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Speaker 1: I really just I blurted it out. I went to

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Speaker 1: visit her in San Francisco on tour with my band,

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00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:38,320
Speaker 1: and after our show, you know, it was probably like

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Speaker 1: twelve thirty in the morning, and I had like one

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Speaker 1: sip of one beer and was like, oh, so was

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00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:47,240
Speaker 1: my dad really dead? And she just immediately broke and

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Speaker 1: was like, no, no, he's not. And she immediately just

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Speaker 1: dissolved into tears, and I was like, I'm so sorry.

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Speaker 1: I you know, please don't hate me. I've always wanted

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Speaker 1: to tell you, and I you know, I it really

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00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:03,960
Speaker 1: never crossed my mind to hate my sisters. It had

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Speaker 1: crossed my mind to hate my mom over the secret,

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Speaker 1: but I knew that they were hostages basically to my

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Speaker 1: mom's reality, just like I was. And it was so

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Speaker 1: hard to see how much pain the secret had caused

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Speaker 1: them to keep all this time. What did it feel

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Speaker 1: like at that moment to have that confirmation there was

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Speaker 1: really overwhelming. I mean every step of this process has

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Speaker 1: just completely, um like overwhelmed my nervous system. I felt

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Speaker 1: very sad for my sisters, and I felt it kind

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Speaker 1: of just blew my mind that it was true. And

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Speaker 1: I think on some level I knew it was true,

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Speaker 1: or else I wouldn't have asked. But I think part

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Speaker 1: of the reason it felt overwhelming is because there wasn't

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Speaker 1: a place in my household for that kind of emotional

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Speaker 1: raw vulnerability and honesty. That wasn't how our house was

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Speaker 1: where we grew up, and so I was really we

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Speaker 1: were both very vulnerable of each other for my whole life.

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Speaker 1: So us just communing in this way felt very particular. Well,

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Speaker 1: I think it's also being an unwilling secret keeper is

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00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:21,920
Speaker 1: its own kind of hell. I can only imagine because

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00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:24,359
Speaker 1: now as an adult, any time I have a secret

389
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Speaker 1: from somebody, any kind of secret, even if I only

390
00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:30,720
Speaker 1: keep it for ten minutes, it will give me a migraine.

391
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Speaker 1: It will tear me, it will eat me up. It

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Speaker 1: makes me so uncomfortable. So to think about, like my

393
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Speaker 1: sister Meg, being ten years old or eleven and a half,

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00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:43,840
Speaker 1: you know, raising an infant, and then having your mother

395
00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:46,520
Speaker 1: implicate you in this secret and having to hold it

396
00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:48,480
Speaker 1: for your whole life from somebody who you care about

397
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Speaker 1: that much. I feel devastated for both of them that

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Speaker 1: they had their child, that piece of their childhoods and

399
00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:59,680
Speaker 1: that ability to bond with me taken away. Regular listeners

400
00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:02,760
Speaker 1: of this podcast, no that trauma lives in the body.

401
00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:06,480
Speaker 1: Just listen to my bonus episodes with Dr Bessel vander

402
00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:10,840
Speaker 1: Kolk and Dr Rachel Yehuda for starters. Seriously, if you

403
00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:14,320
Speaker 1: haven't listened to those, I hope you will. Trauma lodges

404
00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:18,359
Speaker 1: itself within us and becomes, in a very real physical sense,

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Speaker 1: like a slumbering giant. In her graphic memoir calling Dr

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00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:30,440
Speaker 1: Laura Nicole illustrates this with the story of fainting goat syndrome. Yes,

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00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:33,359
Speaker 1: you heard that right. You've probably heard of fight or

408
00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:37,040
Speaker 1: flight as a response to a fearful situation. Well, there's

409
00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:41,680
Speaker 1: also freeze, and there is apparently faint and it's not

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00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:47,639
Speaker 1: just for goats. There's something that I call fainting goat syndrome,

411
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Speaker 1: and I've heard some other people call it this too,

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Speaker 1: But basically, there's this kind of goat where if they

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00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:59,520
Speaker 1: get scared or overwhelmed, like if a predator is coming

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00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:03,600
Speaker 1: at them, they will freeze up. Their bodies will completely

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00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:06,040
Speaker 1: freeze up, and they'll have a temporary paralysis and just

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Speaker 1: fall over. And so they're called fainting goats. And I

417
00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:16,440
Speaker 1: felt like I had this anytime somebody wanted to process,

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Speaker 1: or lesbian process as I call it, basically just sitting

419
00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:22,360
Speaker 1: down and talking about our feelings, talking about hard feelings.

420
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Speaker 1: It was so overwhelming to me that I would get

421
00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:28,680
Speaker 1: so tired and just fall asleep. And as a kid,

422
00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:31,080
Speaker 1: my mom would joke to like, oh, my little narcaleptic,

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Speaker 1: because I would I would just fall asleep all the time.

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00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:37,360
Speaker 1: I would fall asleep in the car, I would fall

425
00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:41,200
Speaker 1: asleep during a hard conversation. I would just it overwhelmed

426
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Speaker 1: my whole body. And so around this time, when I

427
00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:47,199
Speaker 1: was dealing with this with my sister and with my

428
00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:50,920
Speaker 1: partner at the time, I would sometimes get so overwhelmed

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Speaker 1: by all the information I would just start kind of

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Speaker 1: nodding off or getting very drowsy. That's something I've outgrown

431
00:24:57,680 --> 00:24:59,199
Speaker 1: with time. I mean it just as a it's a

432
00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:02,639
Speaker 1: it's been a actice of getting used to being vulnerable,

433
00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:06,720
Speaker 1: saying my feelings, understanding that like criticism isn't the worst

434
00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:09,560
Speaker 1: thing in the world, and that being accountable is okay.

435
00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:12,640
Speaker 1: But it's been a long it's been a long road well,

436
00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:15,480
Speaker 1: And it seems like you learned that sort of at

437
00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:19,960
Speaker 1: your mother's feet. You know, you describe what it was

438
00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:23,160
Speaker 1: like to ever have any kind of confrontation with your

439
00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:26,120
Speaker 1: mother or a fight with your mother, and you didn't

440
00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:29,720
Speaker 1: grow up learning that it was okay to be emotionally vulnerable.

441
00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:34,200
Speaker 1: Absolutely not. I mean I I learned to come at

442
00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:38,520
Speaker 1: any kind of confrontation or uncomfortable conversation to get in

443
00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:43,040
Speaker 1: a defensive crouch, to be just like all horns and thorns,

444
00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:47,360
Speaker 1: and just like clowse out like everyone defend themselves. Because

445
00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:50,480
Speaker 1: I mean also when I grew up, if there was

446
00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:53,199
Speaker 1: a vulnerable conversation, if there was a conversation with my

447
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:57,960
Speaker 1: mom that took a turn through outsized responses or anger

448
00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:01,440
Speaker 1: or name calling, we're so unpredictable that I think it.

449
00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:03,880
Speaker 1: You know, I feel like my brain was always trying

450
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:06,000
Speaker 1: to find an order to it or a reason and

451
00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:08,600
Speaker 1: being like, oh, well, maybe if she disunderstands that I

452
00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:11,360
Speaker 1: didn't mean to hurt her, or maybe this, or I'm

453
00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:13,760
Speaker 1: not quite sure what set her off, my brain will

454
00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:17,320
Speaker 1: be working so fast trying to find reason in order

455
00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:20,040
Speaker 1: to the chaos that was in front of me. But

456
00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:22,760
Speaker 1: I think it just overwhelmed my whole system, and it

457
00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:26,959
Speaker 1: wasn't a place where I could take vulnerable, soft feelings

458
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:30,119
Speaker 1: and get any kind of have anybody emotionally meet me

459
00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:33,359
Speaker 1: there or reflect back to me like oh that seems

460
00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:37,440
Speaker 1: really hard or I'm so sorry that happened, you know,

461
00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:40,159
Speaker 1: it wasn't that. It was either like somebody hurt you.

462
00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:44,520
Speaker 1: Now there our enemy, or I hurt you. No, I didn't.

463
00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:47,439
Speaker 1: I'll give you something to cry about. What are you

464
00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:49,639
Speaker 1: crying like? I got? I got the very soothing I'll

465
00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:51,920
Speaker 1: give you something to cry about. That's kind of how

466
00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:56,600
Speaker 1: my feelings were held when I was young. So Nicole

467
00:26:56,680 --> 00:27:00,680
Speaker 1: is understandably terrified and resistant about the idea of confronting

468
00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:04,840
Speaker 1: her mother. It's nearing the holidays, and her mother's spidy

469
00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:08,000
Speaker 1: sense kicks into gear. She starts calling more than usual,

470
00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:11,440
Speaker 1: stalking Nicole. The more Nicole keeps her at a distance,

471
00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:15,520
Speaker 1: the more her mother pursues. Nicole is also hiding from

472
00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:18,879
Speaker 1: her mother the fact that her roommate, a woman named Radar,

473
00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:23,639
Speaker 1: is actually her girlfriend. It's around this time that Nicole

474
00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:27,639
Speaker 1: decides to reach out to Dr Laura. Yes, that Doctor Laura,

475
00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:31,640
Speaker 1: the famous radio personality known for dolling out harsh advice.

476
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:36,280
Speaker 1: Nicole's mom has been a fan of Doctor Laura's for

477
00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:38,560
Speaker 1: many years, and Nicole grew up stuck in the car

478
00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:42,760
Speaker 1: listening to her, So it seems somehow logical that she

479
00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:46,360
Speaker 1: a left leaning lesbian who has recently learned that she's

480
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:49,200
Speaker 1: been lied to all her life about her dad called

481
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:52,760
Speaker 1: the conservative super hetero radio shrink whose m o is

482
00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:57,600
Speaker 1: just plain mean. It's strange. I I didn't think about

483
00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:00,760
Speaker 1: my mom here in the episode. I thought if she

484
00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:04,480
Speaker 1: did hear the episode, it was a little bit like

485
00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:07,600
Speaker 1: I was like an edgewalker or something. I didn't imagine

486
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:09,600
Speaker 1: she was going to hear the episode because she had

487
00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:12,040
Speaker 1: decided at some poy that Dr Laura was too mean

488
00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:16,919
Speaker 1: and had stopped listening to her. Yet I her, you know,

489
00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:21,600
Speaker 1: radical feminist gay daughter had continued to listen to Dr Laura.

490
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:23,840
Speaker 1: So I didn't think my mom would listen to it.

491
00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:26,000
Speaker 1: But I did think if she did. Dr Laura felt

492
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:28,080
Speaker 1: like an adult in the room. It felt like a

493
00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:31,840
Speaker 1: different adult giving a perspective on something. I started listening

494
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:33,679
Speaker 1: to Dr Laura with my mom and I thought she

495
00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:35,560
Speaker 1: I also thought she was mean. I was like, who

496
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:40,160
Speaker 1: is this evil woman yelling at people? And then something

497
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:42,160
Speaker 1: turned and I you know, it kind of went from

498
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:45,840
Speaker 1: me turning off the radio, to um suffering through it,

499
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:48,840
Speaker 1: to then actually preferring it. And I liked I like

500
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:52,520
Speaker 1: to formulate quality, and I like somebody who just feels

501
00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:54,520
Speaker 1: like there's a plan for life, and they know what

502
00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:56,840
Speaker 1: to do, and they know what to tell you to

503
00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:00,560
Speaker 1: do that there's like a lot of boundaries. She doesn't

504
00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:02,560
Speaker 1: like the word boundaries, Dr Laura, but she is like

505
00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:06,720
Speaker 1: nothing but rules. She loves rules. And I realized at

506
00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:10,240
Speaker 1: some point that actually I appreciated that she was telling

507
00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:15,000
Speaker 1: people to choose their children over themselves or over their

508
00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:19,920
Speaker 1: romantic relationships, and so I at some point started I

509
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:23,320
Speaker 1: just I think that I really enjoyed that element. You know,

510
00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:24,880
Speaker 1: there's so many other parts. I'm so used to the

511
00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:26,880
Speaker 1: I don't know if it's cognitive distance or what, but

512
00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:30,760
Speaker 1: you know, growing up as like a gay, radical feminist

513
00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:34,280
Speaker 1: in a home where my mom had just converted to Catholicism,

514
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:36,880
Speaker 1: and there were so many things about her that didn't

515
00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:38,600
Speaker 1: align with me, there were so many things I had

516
00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:40,479
Speaker 1: to take with a grain of salt at all times

517
00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:42,760
Speaker 1: that I was used to that grain of salt, and

518
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:45,960
Speaker 1: I just applied it to Dr Laura, where I was like, Okay,

519
00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:49,320
Speaker 1: she's very pro life, she's very anti feminist. She has

520
00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:53,840
Speaker 1: questionable views about gay people. However, I appreciate that she's

521
00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:58,120
Speaker 1: yelling at these people to choose their children because your

522
00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:01,320
Speaker 1: mother did not choose you. I didn't feel chosen. No,

523
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:04,880
Speaker 1: so you called Dr Laura. You're actually thinking of what

524
00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:06,920
Speaker 1: pseudonym you're going to use, and then you just is

525
00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:10,440
Speaker 1: your real name? Yeah, I was. I was practicing in

526
00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:11,760
Speaker 1: my head. I was like, are you going to say

527
00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:15,680
Speaker 1: your name is Amber? They're twenty two, you know your

528
00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:18,720
Speaker 1: name Stacy. You live in Palm Springs. And I just

529
00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:23,000
Speaker 1: was like, oh, Nicole, Nicole, here's my exact dature's exactly

530
00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:26,080
Speaker 1: where I lived. I froze and I was like, my

531
00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:28,400
Speaker 1: name is Nicole. And then I was compulsively honest and

532
00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:32,200
Speaker 1: just rattled off my story. And Dr Laura got mad

533
00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:34,080
Speaker 1: at me, even though I tried to follow the rules

534
00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:36,920
Speaker 1: that I know. She doesn't want too many details. She

535
00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:39,800
Speaker 1: wanted to know why I was mad at my mom

536
00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:43,400
Speaker 1: for keeping this man from me, who probably could have

537
00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:46,240
Speaker 1: found me if he wanted to anyway. So that was

538
00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:50,320
Speaker 1: Dr Laura's main takeaway. Oh yeah, she said, you've suffered enough,

539
00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:54,920
Speaker 1: go have Christmas. She basically said that my mom had

540
00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:58,160
Speaker 1: created stability for me today and I should appreciate that

541
00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:00,680
Speaker 1: instead of bringing up the past and sing it all up.

542
00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:07,360
Speaker 1: We'll be back in a moment with more family secrets.

543
00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:26,240
Speaker 1: M Nicole goes home and heeds Dr Laura's advice. She

544
00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:29,080
Speaker 1: doesn't talk to her mom about any of it, not

545
00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:31,960
Speaker 1: the massive lie about her dad, not the fact of

546
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:36,720
Speaker 1: her sexuality, none of the secrets. Meanwhile, Radar has made

547
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:39,880
Speaker 1: her promise that she'd confront her mom by saying, all

548
00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:44,680
Speaker 1: in one go, I'm gay, who's my dad? I've decided

549
00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:50,920
Speaker 1: to stay closeted. And I just had an incredible migraine

550
00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:54,040
Speaker 1: the whole time. You know, my mom at by this point,

551
00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:57,040
Speaker 1: had reached substability with my you know, she had been

552
00:31:57,080 --> 00:31:59,680
Speaker 1: with my current stepdad for many years. They had the

553
00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:02,280
Speaker 1: same house that I was in from high school forward.

554
00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:04,480
Speaker 1: She really, you know, she said at the guest room.

555
00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:08,240
Speaker 1: She put her dogs in jingle bell collars, She made

556
00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:11,280
Speaker 1: me all my favorite foods. She was really trying to

557
00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:15,440
Speaker 1: host me. And I grew up feeling an allegiance to

558
00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:18,280
Speaker 1: her that she instilled in me. So it felt like anything.

559
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:20,640
Speaker 1: I felt like a little bit like don't go against

560
00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:23,400
Speaker 1: the family. It felt like a betrayal. I felt like

561
00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:26,280
Speaker 1: not telling her I knew this information, and actually me

562
00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:29,840
Speaker 1: even discovering her secret, I felt like I had somehow

563
00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:33,520
Speaker 1: betrayed her or I was feeling shame. Instead of me

564
00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:35,200
Speaker 1: being like, oh, this is someone's going to be accountable

565
00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:36,600
Speaker 1: to me, it just was like me feeling like I

566
00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:39,000
Speaker 1: had betrayed her. And then I was like, and now

567
00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:40,960
Speaker 1: I have this secret that I'm gay and I can't

568
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:43,040
Speaker 1: tell her, and it's going to disappoint her, and everything's

569
00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:45,960
Speaker 1: going to disappoint her or betray her. And you, Wilso,

570
00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:48,000
Speaker 1: had the additional pressure of the fact that you knew

571
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:50,720
Speaker 1: that Radar was going to be really pissed if you

572
00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:53,320
Speaker 1: came home and you hadn't told your mother the truth,

573
00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:57,920
Speaker 1: particularly about being gay. Yeah, it was you know, Radar

574
00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:00,840
Speaker 1: somebody who had come out really young and who was

575
00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:03,240
Speaker 1: butch in a way where she couldn't hide that she

576
00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:05,560
Speaker 1: was gay, and so it fell to her like a

577
00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:08,760
Speaker 1: betrayal to our relationship and also like me using a

578
00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:11,800
Speaker 1: kind of privilege as a betrayal to her to like

579
00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:14,960
Speaker 1: go and just you know, pass as a straight person

580
00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:18,200
Speaker 1: and pretend like she was my roommate and pretend like

581
00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:20,720
Speaker 1: this whole life we had built together with like too

582
00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:24,360
Speaker 1: many dogs in a band and a house, you know,

583
00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:27,600
Speaker 1: we were partnered, and to pretend like that person was

584
00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:31,360
Speaker 1: my roommate felt like a betrayal to her. She's somebody

585
00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:33,400
Speaker 1: who had no choice but to live in her honesty,

586
00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:38,040
Speaker 1: and she was seeing me make a different choice. Nicole

587
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:41,360
Speaker 1: returns home, back to her life with Radar, all the

588
00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:45,840
Speaker 1: unsaid words and feelings still stuck inside of her. What's more,

589
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:50,600
Speaker 1: now her romantic relationship is on the rocks. So I

590
00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:56,600
Speaker 1: came home from Kansas, and shortly thereafter, you know, I

591
00:33:57,000 --> 00:33:59,120
Speaker 1: had kind of been able to get away with not

592
00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:03,000
Speaker 1: thinking about the dad issue because I had built a

593
00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:06,480
Speaker 1: chosen family, you know, as a queer person and a

594
00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:08,799
Speaker 1: person who came from a fraud household. I had a

595
00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:12,520
Speaker 1: lot of stock in chosen family and my community, my

596
00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:16,880
Speaker 1: artistic community, and then my relationships with my queer friends

597
00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:20,279
Speaker 1: and with my partner. And when I got home, I

598
00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:23,799
Speaker 1: found out pretty soon after that my partner, Radar, had

599
00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:27,000
Speaker 1: been cheating on me and then replaced me in our

600
00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:29,360
Speaker 1: band with someone that she had been cheating on me with.

601
00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:34,120
Speaker 1: And so all at once it was like my chosen

602
00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:36,160
Speaker 1: family of the person who I lived with, who I

603
00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:39,080
Speaker 1: had partnered with, whose dogs I had taken care of,

604
00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:41,560
Speaker 1: who I had let room my house, this person had

605
00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:44,560
Speaker 1: left me, and not only that, she had implicated community

606
00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:47,920
Speaker 1: members like people who I trusted with my creative projects

607
00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:50,600
Speaker 1: and friends of mine. They knew about it or they

608
00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:52,480
Speaker 1: were part of it. And it just I felt like

609
00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:54,359
Speaker 1: the rug was pulled out from under me and I

610
00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:57,440
Speaker 1: hit what at that time was my complete rock bottom,

611
00:34:57,520 --> 00:34:59,800
Speaker 1: and I just felt like I had nothing left to lose.

612
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:03,520
Speaker 1: I felt so low that it didn't matter to me

613
00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:05,800
Speaker 1: what my mom said. I just already like the worst

614
00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:08,400
Speaker 1: heartbreak I could possibly handle happened. And so I just

615
00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:11,640
Speaker 1: was like, you know what, I'm almost again aggressively wanting

616
00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:14,200
Speaker 1: to come visit Portland's. And I was like, all right,

617
00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:16,239
Speaker 1: if this lady wants to come visit Portland's so bad,

618
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:19,080
Speaker 1: she needs to know everything before she buys a ticket,

619
00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:21,719
Speaker 1: because I don't want her to buy a ticket under

620
00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:26,479
Speaker 1: false pretenses. And so I just emailed her and I said,

621
00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:30,040
Speaker 1: you know, Radar was not my roommate. She was my girlfriend.

622
00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:32,680
Speaker 1: We were in love and now we're not very sad,

623
00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:36,719
Speaker 1: and that's the secret I've been keeping from you. But

624
00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:39,880
Speaker 1: I know that you have a secret to I found

625
00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:44,120
Speaker 1: out that my dad was alive. Nobody told me. I

626
00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:48,080
Speaker 1: found out from a psychic and um, I just want

627
00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:51,319
Speaker 1: you to know that. And she didn't respond for a

628
00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:54,000
Speaker 1: few days, but she later told me that she cried

629
00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:56,640
Speaker 1: for three days and three nights and her husband almost

630
00:35:56,640 --> 00:35:58,560
Speaker 1: took her to the hospital because she couldn't stop crying,

631
00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:01,160
Speaker 1: which I I don't even know if that's the thing.

632
00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:05,359
Speaker 1: But she finally wrote me back at a camera, which

633
00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:09,000
Speaker 1: she basically spun it as he was a bad guy

634
00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:12,360
Speaker 1: and he abandoned you and I was protecting you. She

635
00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:15,480
Speaker 1: basically I'm sorry, you're heartbroken, and basically, you know, in

636
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:18,440
Speaker 1: her classic fashion of people becoming the enemy. Then Radar

637
00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:21,759
Speaker 1: became her enemy for breaking my heart, and she came

638
00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:24,880
Speaker 1: to visit. And the way that my mom is, I

639
00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:26,600
Speaker 1: had known that if I came to her with this,

640
00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:29,439
Speaker 1: she would defend herself. She would get in that low

641
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:33,239
Speaker 1: defensive crouch and find a way to spin it so

642
00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:38,360
Speaker 1: that she didn't have to acknowledge blame or that she

643
00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:40,319
Speaker 1: had made this decision out of shame and then really

644
00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:42,640
Speaker 1: had to stick with it for so long. And that's

645
00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:48,920
Speaker 1: exactly what happened. So it was a rather anticlimactic series

646
00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:52,560
Speaker 1: of events. You're you know, you're finally coming out and

647
00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:55,239
Speaker 1: telling your mother that you know about your father. Yeah,

648
00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:57,480
Speaker 1: it was almost like I was telling her that I

649
00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:01,239
Speaker 1: was bad, like I had to steal myself. I had

650
00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:02,840
Speaker 1: tried to say, like, you know, let's just clear the

651
00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:04,799
Speaker 1: board and just start from scratch, and she was like,

652
00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:07,799
Speaker 1: we are not equals. I am your mother, so we

653
00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:09,960
Speaker 1: couldn't start from scratch. And it wasn't a moment in

654
00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:12,640
Speaker 1: which I was parented. It was this anti climactic moment

655
00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:15,439
Speaker 1: where I had to kind of put on my old

656
00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:19,520
Speaker 1: armor from when I was a kid and was vulnerable. Um,

657
00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:21,520
Speaker 1: but now I wasn't adult. And she was sitting in

658
00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:26,040
Speaker 1: my living room and she was like, yeah, he abandoned you,

659
00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:30,360
Speaker 1: he didn't want you. But I'm essentially the hero because

660
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:32,880
Speaker 1: I did want you. And guess what, I'm not going

661
00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:35,440
Speaker 1: to make a big deal out of you being gay, basically,

662
00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:37,400
Speaker 1: like she was like, I'm not going to abuse emotionally

663
00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:40,719
Speaker 1: abuse you for being a homosexual. So you're welcome, and

664
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:43,040
Speaker 1: I saved you from your debt. You're welcome. It was

665
00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:45,560
Speaker 1: kind of like that. It was kind of like, you're welcome,

666
00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:48,759
Speaker 1: and then I had to forge this path on my own.

667
00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:54,360
Speaker 1: So there it all is. Or so Nicole thinks the

668
00:37:54,440 --> 00:38:00,320
Speaker 1: information about David, her father. She occasionally does half hearted

669
00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:03,799
Speaker 1: Google search that leads to a dead end. Maybe there's

670
00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:06,480
Speaker 1: nothing more to know. Maybe she should leave well enough

671
00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:10,440
Speaker 1: alone now, maybe this David really is a bad guy.

672
00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:14,759
Speaker 1: But eventually she gets serious she wants to know more.

673
00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:21,840
Speaker 1: I honestly only did it at that moment for the

674
00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:25,840
Speaker 1: sake of my art in my book. There was something

675
00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:28,800
Speaker 1: in me that felt so compelled to tell people about

676
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:31,919
Speaker 1: this story within the Kookie framework of I called Dr

677
00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:36,759
Speaker 1: Laura that I toured the country with this story, and

678
00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:38,880
Speaker 1: I got a literary agent who was like, will you

679
00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:41,560
Speaker 1: would you consider doing a graphic memoir about this? And

680
00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:43,480
Speaker 1: I always wanted to do that because I've always been

681
00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:46,880
Speaker 1: drawing comics and doing diaries. And I got, you know,

682
00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:50,279
Speaker 1: a few years into this graphic memoir, and it just

683
00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:52,520
Speaker 1: felt like I needed to do it in service of

684
00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:55,880
Speaker 1: the book and in service of my art. What's so

685
00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:59,480
Speaker 1: interesting to call is that I think sometimes that for

686
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:04,600
Speaker 1: those of us who are artists and writers, that we

687
00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:09,200
Speaker 1: actually kind of need the permission that the making of

688
00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:12,960
Speaker 1: the work grants us in a way, like it's too

689
00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:20,000
Speaker 1: scary to anxiety producing. There's too much resistance to it

690
00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:22,960
Speaker 1: to just go ahead and do it. But if you're

691
00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:25,560
Speaker 1: doing it for the book, you know, or you're doing

692
00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:29,719
Speaker 1: it for the story, then suddenly there's just more permission.

693
00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:31,359
Speaker 1: There's a feeling of like, well, I have a job

694
00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:33,160
Speaker 1: to do and so I have to do it, when

695
00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:36,439
Speaker 1: in fact, really deep down on some level, I think

696
00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:39,200
Speaker 1: we really want to do it. Does that resonate at

697
00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:44,640
Speaker 1: all completely? And it's not like I been paid like

698
00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:47,040
Speaker 1: a trillion dollars for this book and I had an

699
00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:49,680
Speaker 1: editor saying you better find him, like it was none

700
00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:52,319
Speaker 1: of that. It really was me. You know, there was

701
00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:54,240
Speaker 1: a draft of the book that existed where I don't

702
00:39:54,239 --> 00:39:56,200
Speaker 1: find him, but it just, yeah, there was something that

703
00:39:56,239 --> 00:40:00,359
Speaker 1: compulsed me to do it. But it feels like doing

704
00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:02,640
Speaker 1: it in service for my art, like my art maybe

705
00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:06,360
Speaker 1: exists for some other kind of soul piece of me

706
00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:11,400
Speaker 1: that I wouldn't acknowledge otherwise for whatever reason. So I

707
00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:15,520
Speaker 1: put some money into a detective website and I found

708
00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:18,960
Speaker 1: David with He has a very common last name, and

709
00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:22,560
Speaker 1: I found him connected to my mom, and then I

710
00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:26,680
Speaker 1: saw him connected to another woman named Tina and some kids.

711
00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:28,960
Speaker 1: And what my sister Mega told me that he had

712
00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:32,239
Speaker 1: a couple of sons named Brendan and Jason. So I

713
00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:35,120
Speaker 1: went on Facebook again with this new information and I

714
00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:37,640
Speaker 1: found Brennan and Jason, and then I found my dad's

715
00:40:37,719 --> 00:40:43,200
Speaker 1: name and I clicked on it. But the person I

716
00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:47,200
Speaker 1: was very young. The person looked like they were maybe

717
00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:50,120
Speaker 1: like in their mid to late twenties, and he was

718
00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:53,240
Speaker 1: very handsome, but he was connected to all these people

719
00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:56,400
Speaker 1: I had seen on that detective website. I liled him

720
00:40:56,440 --> 00:40:58,439
Speaker 1: right away. As soon as I found him, I just said,

721
00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:01,359
Speaker 1: you know, this is probably gonna sound crazy, but I

722
00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:04,880
Speaker 1: think I might be your sister. Is your dad's name, David.

723
00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:07,799
Speaker 1: I was told he was dead my whole life. I

724
00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:11,600
Speaker 1: found out he was alive through a psychic and I

725
00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:14,120
Speaker 1: just wanted to know. I think we might be related,

726
00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:16,200
Speaker 1: and if you have any information, I would really love it,

727
00:41:16,239 --> 00:41:19,839
Speaker 1: but if not, I understand. And he wrote me back

728
00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:23,360
Speaker 1: right away. He brought me back within a day and said, yeah,

729
00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:26,279
Speaker 1: I did know David. I you know, I did know him,

730
00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:29,359
Speaker 1: and I actually have heard about you. He said he

731
00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:33,719
Speaker 1: was heartbroken that your mom told him she was going

732
00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:36,799
Speaker 1: to tell you that he was dead. And I said, oh, well,

733
00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:38,719
Speaker 1: you know you're talking about in the past. Tense. I

734
00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:40,319
Speaker 1: heard he was a dead beat. He must have left

735
00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:42,200
Speaker 1: you too. Do you know if there's any way I

736
00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:44,440
Speaker 1: can find him? You know, how long was he in

737
00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:47,360
Speaker 1: your life? And he said, oh, you know, he was

738
00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:49,160
Speaker 1: around for my whole life. He was a great dad.

739
00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:51,279
Speaker 1: He was not a con man or a dirt bag

740
00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:53,839
Speaker 1: at all. He was my football coach. And I'm so

741
00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:56,520
Speaker 1: sorry to tell you, but you he died like a

742
00:41:56,600 --> 00:42:00,399
Speaker 1: year ago. He missed him by just about year ago,

743
00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:04,200
Speaker 1: and um, it's too bad. I heard that he had

744
00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:07,760
Speaker 1: your baby picture in his wallet for his entire life.

745
00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:12,000
Speaker 1: I felt the weight of my mom's secret hit me.

746
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:16,040
Speaker 1: I've been missing the point all this time, um, because

747
00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:17,960
Speaker 1: I just never really understood what a dad was for.

748
00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:23,279
Speaker 1: But there was something about hearing that he wasn't a

749
00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:26,120
Speaker 1: dirt bag and that he had always wanted to find me,

750
00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:28,480
Speaker 1: or that he had always thought about me, And I

751
00:42:28,560 --> 00:42:34,200
Speaker 1: just felt the full implication of everything, and also the

752
00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:36,359
Speaker 1: implication of them telling me he was a dirt bag,

753
00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:38,840
Speaker 1: which is what led me to stall for so long

754
00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:44,560
Speaker 1: that I missed him by a year. Did now meeting

755
00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:48,440
Speaker 1: a new half sibling, you know, this half brother, has

756
00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:53,560
Speaker 1: that been something that has been healing in any way

757
00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:57,640
Speaker 1: to have like some some connection to David through through

758
00:42:57,680 --> 00:43:01,760
Speaker 1: his son. Yeah, you know, A couple of things happened

759
00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:04,640
Speaker 1: after that where I went to Texas and I met

760
00:43:04,719 --> 00:43:08,520
Speaker 1: David Jr. I also have a sister named Summer in

761
00:43:08,600 --> 00:43:13,600
Speaker 1: my dad's widow, Tina, and they are so warm and

762
00:43:13,640 --> 00:43:16,600
Speaker 1: they're so close, and they were so excited to tell

763
00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:19,799
Speaker 1: me about my dad, who they still I mean, you

764
00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:21,960
Speaker 1: know currently it's been a long time since he died,

765
00:43:22,080 --> 00:43:24,080
Speaker 1: and they will still tear up to this day because

766
00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:27,479
Speaker 1: they miss him so much and they loved him so much,

767
00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:30,120
Speaker 1: and so they have such a It really helps fill

768
00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:34,760
Speaker 1: out the picture of who I was told he was needing.

769
00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:38,040
Speaker 1: David Jr. In Summer. Of course I noticed, like we

770
00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:40,360
Speaker 1: have the same eyes. My sister was like, you have

771
00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:44,480
Speaker 1: the same nail beds. It was all these things. But

772
00:43:44,600 --> 00:43:50,640
Speaker 1: I also after that, I was found via Facebook by

773
00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:56,000
Speaker 1: my grandma, my dad's mom, because my book came out.

774
00:43:56,400 --> 00:43:59,319
Speaker 1: My grandma found me and she had been looking for

775
00:43:59,360 --> 00:44:02,520
Speaker 1: me my whole using telephone books. You know, I thought

776
00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:06,200
Speaker 1: a piece of this feeling of comfort for meeting David Jr.

777
00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:09,600
Speaker 1: And their side of the family, but also it was

778
00:44:09,640 --> 00:44:12,200
Speaker 1: so different than how I had heard he was that.

779
00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:13,720
Speaker 1: I had to take that with a grain of salt

780
00:44:13,719 --> 00:44:15,360
Speaker 1: because I feel like the truth is probably somewhere in

781
00:44:15,360 --> 00:44:19,040
Speaker 1: the middle. But meeting my grandma was the feeling, like

782
00:44:19,080 --> 00:44:21,719
Speaker 1: I heard you say that, you know, meeting your dad

783
00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:24,000
Speaker 1: it felt like the country you were from. That's how

784
00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:26,560
Speaker 1: it felt when I met my grandma. When I met

785
00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:30,960
Speaker 1: David's mom is it felt like I understood biology for

786
00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:33,839
Speaker 1: a second, and I understood that piece of it and

787
00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:37,399
Speaker 1: finding people that spoke a language that was the same

788
00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:40,759
Speaker 1: as mine that I had been born with. Where did

789
00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:46,520
Speaker 1: this leave you in terms of your mom? And you

790
00:44:46,560 --> 00:44:50,440
Speaker 1: know now that you know the depths and the breadth

791
00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:55,520
Speaker 1: and the implications and the ripple effect of what she

792
00:44:55,680 --> 00:45:00,040
Speaker 1: chose to do by keeping secrets and telling lies, what

793
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:03,840
Speaker 1: do you do with that? I still don't know. After

794
00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:06,239
Speaker 1: calling Dr Laura came out, my mom gave it a

795
00:45:06,239 --> 00:45:10,799
Speaker 1: one star Amazon review, and it's under her real name.

796
00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:16,240
Speaker 1: She's very you know, she's a real anti fan. And

797
00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:19,000
Speaker 1: after the book came out she wrote me and she

798
00:45:19,080 --> 00:45:20,560
Speaker 1: was like, oh, I've heard you to head your book

799
00:45:20,560 --> 00:45:22,880
Speaker 1: about your pitiful life, and you should write about how

800
00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:26,120
Speaker 1: much the George's family loved you. Maybe I'll write a book.

801
00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:29,200
Speaker 1: Maybe I'll write a book about how much I loved

802
00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:31,560
Speaker 1: how you were so loved. And I was like, okay,

803
00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:35,239
Speaker 1: you can. And my stepdad started calling me, be like

804
00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:37,879
Speaker 1: I forbid you to talk to your mother about your

805
00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:42,040
Speaker 1: supposed father and your so called lifestyle, and they're really

806
00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:45,120
Speaker 1: bullying me. She wrote all that without even reading. She

807
00:45:45,160 --> 00:45:47,680
Speaker 1: wrote all that from the description, and then I think

808
00:45:47,719 --> 00:45:51,960
Speaker 1: she read it, and she sent me a voicemail, and

809
00:45:52,040 --> 00:45:54,479
Speaker 1: in that moment she really changed his moment to moment.

810
00:45:54,480 --> 00:45:56,520
Speaker 1: But in that moment, she was teary and she just

811
00:45:56,560 --> 00:46:00,160
Speaker 1: said I read your book. I'm humbled, I'm sorry, ye,

812
00:46:01,080 --> 00:46:04,880
Speaker 1: And that voicemail was enough for me. It was a

813
00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:07,960
Speaker 1: huge moment, you know, as you can imagine from everything

814
00:46:08,000 --> 00:46:10,480
Speaker 1: I told you about how these things go and how

815
00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:14,960
Speaker 1: vulnerability goes. Was huge. Had she ever apologized to you

816
00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:18,279
Speaker 1: before about anything? Never in my life had I ever

817
00:46:18,360 --> 00:46:22,120
Speaker 1: been apologized to buy her for anything she had done.

818
00:46:23,239 --> 00:46:25,720
Speaker 1: The first time a friend apologized to me as an adult,

819
00:46:25,719 --> 00:46:28,040
Speaker 1: when I was like twenty one or twenty two, I

820
00:46:28,080 --> 00:46:30,960
Speaker 1: couldn't handle it and I burst into tears. I had

821
00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:34,279
Speaker 1: never been apologized to I didn't even know that I

822
00:46:34,440 --> 00:46:37,360
Speaker 1: deserved that, or I was worth that, or like that

823
00:46:37,440 --> 00:46:39,960
Speaker 1: someone could be accountable to me, or acknowledge that they

824
00:46:39,960 --> 00:46:44,880
Speaker 1: had hurt me. So basically, my mom and I live

825
00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:49,000
Speaker 1: in different realities. She will refer to the book as

826
00:46:49,040 --> 00:46:53,000
Speaker 1: a fairy tale. If it's in passing, she will jokingly

827
00:46:53,280 --> 00:46:56,040
Speaker 1: refer to it to me as her favorite book. And

828
00:46:56,200 --> 00:46:58,920
Speaker 1: recently on the phone, she went off the rails and

829
00:46:58,960 --> 00:47:01,759
Speaker 1: called me a backstabber and said it was so backstabby,

830
00:47:01,840 --> 00:47:03,399
Speaker 1: and said that, you know, she was the one who

831
00:47:03,400 --> 00:47:05,360
Speaker 1: held me close, she was the one who wanted me,

832
00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:07,279
Speaker 1: and how could I do this to her? And so

833
00:47:07,320 --> 00:47:09,719
Speaker 1: we're just we're doing some different realities. And I just

834
00:47:10,080 --> 00:47:12,279
Speaker 1: I'm trying to accept the love that she has right now,

835
00:47:13,040 --> 00:47:15,440
Speaker 1: and I'm trying to just give her love back. You know,

836
00:47:15,560 --> 00:47:20,520
Speaker 1: she's in her seventies, she is mellowed. She just wants

837
00:47:20,520 --> 00:47:22,080
Speaker 1: to tell me she's praying for me some mean religious

838
00:47:22,120 --> 00:47:24,839
Speaker 1: medallions and like recipes. And I want to be able

839
00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:27,840
Speaker 1: to accept that as much as I can. You know,

840
00:47:27,880 --> 00:47:30,360
Speaker 1: it's just it's heart. It is what it is, and

841
00:47:30,360 --> 00:47:33,040
Speaker 1: I understand some of this. It's just gonna be mine

842
00:47:33,360 --> 00:47:36,440
Speaker 1: to deal with, Like Okay, I have forgiven her for

843
00:47:36,600 --> 00:47:40,120
Speaker 1: keeping this secret about my dad. But as time goes

844
00:47:40,160 --> 00:47:43,439
Speaker 1: on and I learned more information, I keep finding out

845
00:47:43,480 --> 00:47:47,960
Speaker 1: new things that I have to forgive her for, you know,

846
00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:51,000
Speaker 1: like meeting my grandma and having my grandma say, oh,

847
00:47:51,120 --> 00:47:52,839
Speaker 1: I tried to keep in touch with you, and your

848
00:47:52,920 --> 00:47:55,279
Speaker 1: mom told me I could only speak to you on

849
00:47:55,320 --> 00:47:58,680
Speaker 1: the phone if I didn't say who I was, And

850
00:47:58,719 --> 00:48:00,439
Speaker 1: I told you I was just a family, a friend,

851
00:48:01,320 --> 00:48:03,680
Speaker 1: like my grandmother on her deathbed and tears saying I

852
00:48:03,719 --> 00:48:05,479
Speaker 1: try to call you when you were five years old,

853
00:48:06,040 --> 00:48:08,400
Speaker 1: and your mom said, you'll never talk to Nicole again

854
00:48:08,840 --> 00:48:10,759
Speaker 1: unless you can only hear her voice right now if

855
00:48:10,760 --> 00:48:12,360
Speaker 1: you tell her that you're a friend of the family,

856
00:48:14,040 --> 00:48:16,600
Speaker 1: and like that kind of thing, and learning that it's

857
00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:18,160
Speaker 1: just I feel like it's like I have a little

858
00:48:18,200 --> 00:48:20,440
Speaker 1: backpack full of like you know, when you get to it,

859
00:48:20,960 --> 00:48:23,960
Speaker 1: you know, forgive people for these things. Every time I've

860
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Speaker 1: cleaned it out, something else gets dropped. In That Family's

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Speaker 1: Secrets is a production of My Heart Media. Dylan Fagin

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Speaker 1: and Bethman Mcalouso are the executive producers. Andrew Howard is

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Speaker 1: our audio editor. If you have a secret, you'd like

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Speaker 1: to share, leave us a voicemail and your story could

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Speaker 1: appear on an upcoming bonus episode. Our number is eight

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Speaker 1: Secret zero. That's secret and then the number zero. You

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Speaker 1: can also find us on Instagram at Danny Writer, Facebook

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Speaker 1: at facebook dot com slash Family Secrets Pod, and Twitter

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Speaker 1: at fami Secret Spot. And if you want to know

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Speaker 1: about my family secret that inspired this podcast, check out

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Speaker 1: my New York Times best selling memoir Inheritance. For more

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Speaker 1: podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app,

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Speaker 1: Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,