1 00:00:15,604 --> 00:00:24,444 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hey everyone, Maria here with an exciting opportunity for 2 00:00:24,524 --> 00:00:27,284 Speaker 1: any of our listeners who are also new poker players. 3 00:00:27,924 --> 00:00:30,244 Speaker 1: Nate and I are looking for a beginning player who 4 00:00:30,324 --> 00:00:33,604 Speaker 1: is heading to this year's World Series of Poker. We 5 00:00:33,724 --> 00:00:36,244 Speaker 1: might want to talk with you before the tournament, hear 6 00:00:36,324 --> 00:00:40,404 Speaker 1: your story, maybe even offer you some advice. Reach out 7 00:00:40,444 --> 00:00:44,724 Speaker 1: to Risky Business at Pushkin dot FM if you're interested. 8 00:00:45,484 --> 00:00:48,844 Speaker 1: No guarantees, but here comes our first piece of advice. 9 00:00:49,404 --> 00:01:00,604 Speaker 1: It's plus ev to send that email. Welcome back to 10 00:01:00,684 --> 00:01:04,924 Speaker 1: Risky Business, a show about making better decisions. I'm Maria Kanikova. 11 00:01:04,684 --> 00:01:05,564 Speaker 2: And I'm Nate Selver. 12 00:01:06,044 --> 00:01:09,324 Speaker 1: Today on the show, we have a very special guest, 13 00:01:09,564 --> 00:01:13,804 Speaker 1: Vanessa Celtst. Vanessa and I first met when we were 14 00:01:14,004 --> 00:01:18,484 Speaker 1: both Poker Stars Team pros. I was just starting out 15 00:01:18,524 --> 00:01:21,164 Speaker 1: playing poker and Vanessa was just getting the hell out 16 00:01:21,164 --> 00:01:25,964 Speaker 1: of there. And Vanessa remains one of the most impressive 17 00:01:25,964 --> 00:01:29,084 Speaker 1: people I have ever met in or out of poker. 18 00:01:29,604 --> 00:01:35,204 Speaker 1: Yale undergrad Yale Law School, only female poker player ever 19 00:01:35,364 --> 00:01:38,764 Speaker 1: to have reached number one on the GPI that's Global 20 00:01:38,844 --> 00:01:44,124 Speaker 1: Poker Index rankings overall. So both men and women like 21 00:01:44,244 --> 00:01:47,884 Speaker 1: just number one, period, but only female to have ever 22 00:01:47,964 --> 00:01:51,524 Speaker 1: done that, over eleven million in earnings, three World Series 23 00:01:51,564 --> 00:01:55,284 Speaker 1: of Poker bracelets, and then left it all behind, left 24 00:01:55,364 --> 00:02:00,724 Speaker 1: that glamorous life behind to join Bridgewater Associates and go 25 00:02:00,844 --> 00:02:04,684 Speaker 1: into the Hedge fun world, after which she went to 26 00:02:04,924 --> 00:02:09,284 Speaker 1: Jane Street Capital, which is where we find her today. 27 00:02:09,724 --> 00:02:11,324 Speaker 1: Welcome to the show, Vanessa. 28 00:02:11,164 --> 00:02:16,204 Speaker 3: Thanks Maria, thank you for that intros. Definitely more than 29 00:02:16,244 --> 00:02:18,724 Speaker 3: I deserve, but I appreciate nonetheless. 30 00:02:19,564 --> 00:02:21,164 Speaker 1: And Nate, how long have you known Vanessa? 31 00:02:22,044 --> 00:02:24,364 Speaker 2: I think I knew her kind of about the time, 32 00:02:24,684 --> 00:02:27,004 Speaker 2: maybe when she quit, maybe I reached out and I'm like, oh, 33 00:02:27,124 --> 00:02:29,004 Speaker 2: you know, if you've kind of left poke for other things, 34 00:02:29,284 --> 00:02:31,484 Speaker 2: I know, since it was stupid cold email, I think, 35 00:02:31,524 --> 00:02:33,644 Speaker 2: and we wound up becoming friends and we have a 36 00:02:33,684 --> 00:02:35,884 Speaker 2: lot in common, and so I'm a huge admirer of 37 00:02:36,004 --> 00:02:36,924 Speaker 2: Vanessa as well. 38 00:02:37,284 --> 00:02:40,164 Speaker 3: That's not right at all, Nate. We met at a 39 00:02:40,284 --> 00:02:43,684 Speaker 3: really awkward well, my wife was joking, was like a 40 00:02:43,724 --> 00:02:46,044 Speaker 3: really awkward date. You don't remember this? And a Aussie 41 00:02:46,084 --> 00:02:46,724 Speaker 3: millions and. 42 00:02:46,724 --> 00:02:49,124 Speaker 2: Like, oh millions, Okay, when are we. 43 00:02:49,284 --> 00:02:51,404 Speaker 3: Twelve or twenty fourteen? I don't even know what year 44 00:02:51,404 --> 00:02:54,124 Speaker 3: it was, but like I don't know the people at 45 00:02:54,164 --> 00:02:57,284 Speaker 3: Astie Millions were like, Nate Silver wants to meet you. 46 00:02:57,404 --> 00:02:58,644 Speaker 3: I was like, oh, I want to meet him. And 47 00:02:58,684 --> 00:03:01,444 Speaker 3: then we went on like like at dinner, but it 48 00:03:01,484 --> 00:03:03,404 Speaker 3: was just like super awkward and funny, but like it 49 00:03:03,444 --> 00:03:04,004 Speaker 3: was a good time. 50 00:03:04,084 --> 00:03:05,044 Speaker 2: I suppressed it. 51 00:03:08,204 --> 00:03:10,524 Speaker 3: And then that was when we first hung out, but 52 00:03:10,524 --> 00:03:12,044 Speaker 3: then we didn't really start hanging out till a few 53 00:03:12,124 --> 00:03:14,124 Speaker 3: years later, so I just didn't know. That was a 54 00:03:14,204 --> 00:03:17,844 Speaker 3: very special one of my awkwardest states that I've ever had, 55 00:03:17,924 --> 00:03:21,284 Speaker 3: so I guess it was more meaningfully awkward to me, 56 00:03:21,404 --> 00:03:23,564 Speaker 3: but that's okay, it was it was a good time. 57 00:03:23,764 --> 00:03:25,804 Speaker 1: So I actually I remember the first time I met 58 00:03:25,844 --> 00:03:29,204 Speaker 1: you was in Monte Carlo. It was my first ever 59 00:03:29,244 --> 00:03:33,324 Speaker 1: Poker Stars stop and it was my first ever major, 60 00:03:33,444 --> 00:03:37,564 Speaker 1: kind of major tournament period. I knew, you know, I 61 00:03:37,604 --> 00:03:41,404 Speaker 1: had known nothing about poker and kind of there I was, 62 00:03:41,524 --> 00:03:45,844 Speaker 1: and Eric Sidell introduced us. Eric Sidell, obviously you know 63 00:03:45,924 --> 00:03:48,444 Speaker 1: who he is, and listeners of the show, no, he is, 64 00:03:48,484 --> 00:03:50,204 Speaker 1: you know, one of the greatest players of all time 65 00:03:50,564 --> 00:03:52,404 Speaker 1: became my coach and he was like, I want you 66 00:03:52,444 --> 00:03:55,484 Speaker 1: to meet Vanessa Selts. She's really really impressive, and I 67 00:03:55,524 --> 00:03:58,124 Speaker 1: was like, I don't want to meet Vanessa. She's scarce me. 68 00:04:00,844 --> 00:04:02,004 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's funny. 69 00:04:02,084 --> 00:04:04,244 Speaker 1: And then and then we met and at first I 70 00:04:04,284 --> 00:04:06,804 Speaker 1: was like, I don't think she likes me, and Eric's like, no, no, 71 00:04:06,924 --> 00:04:08,924 Speaker 1: she likes you. And then we became friends and I 72 00:04:08,964 --> 00:04:11,004 Speaker 1: realized that you were actually pretty amazing. 73 00:04:11,844 --> 00:04:14,404 Speaker 3: Well thanks, yeah, it was great, great to me beginning 74 00:04:14,404 --> 00:04:16,964 Speaker 3: of a great friendship. You know, it is funny that 75 00:04:17,004 --> 00:04:19,124 Speaker 3: you say that, because there is this thing where there's 76 00:04:19,204 --> 00:04:23,244 Speaker 3: less like you know, not to get to like whatever 77 00:04:23,284 --> 00:04:26,844 Speaker 3: serious about kind of a lighthearted anecdote, and it's like, 78 00:04:27,204 --> 00:04:29,564 Speaker 3: there really is this thing where you're on TV and 79 00:04:29,604 --> 00:04:31,524 Speaker 3: you're or you're just playing poker in general, not even 80 00:04:31,524 --> 00:04:33,724 Speaker 3: on TV, where you know, you're like you have your 81 00:04:33,724 --> 00:04:36,284 Speaker 3: game face, you're like in the zone. And I get 82 00:04:36,324 --> 00:04:39,004 Speaker 3: really intense when I'm playing, and I'm like really concentrating, 83 00:04:39,044 --> 00:04:42,244 Speaker 3: and I'm also often like playing pretty aggressive. So there's 84 00:04:42,244 --> 00:04:45,604 Speaker 3: this like weird like crossover between your poker style and 85 00:04:45,604 --> 00:04:48,044 Speaker 3: your personality, right, and so I can come across it's 86 00:04:48,124 --> 00:04:51,124 Speaker 3: like really intense, and I get really intense sometimes, like 87 00:04:51,124 --> 00:04:53,604 Speaker 3: I'm really in the moment, and I think sometimes it 88 00:04:53,604 --> 00:04:55,644 Speaker 3: would just be like really intense and people will be like, 89 00:04:55,684 --> 00:04:57,124 Speaker 3: oh my god, who is this person? 90 00:04:57,244 --> 00:05:01,964 Speaker 2: But you're you're very self I mean, you're very self possessed. 91 00:05:02,044 --> 00:05:05,884 Speaker 2: And I never want to make assumptions about someone's inner 92 00:05:06,084 --> 00:05:08,484 Speaker 2: confidence level versus how they project outwardly. But did you 93 00:05:08,524 --> 00:05:11,444 Speaker 2: feel like it was an advance just to be on TV? 94 00:05:13,924 --> 00:05:16,404 Speaker 3: Oh? Like, was it an advantage that I got to 95 00:05:16,404 --> 00:05:18,364 Speaker 3: be on TV playing poker? Like? Absolutely? 96 00:05:19,164 --> 00:05:20,884 Speaker 2: Do you feel I guess do you feel like you 97 00:05:20,924 --> 00:05:25,524 Speaker 2: played better on TV relative or you know, maybe everyone 98 00:05:25,564 --> 00:05:27,484 Speaker 2: plays worse because there's more external factors to deal with. 99 00:05:27,484 --> 00:05:30,964 Speaker 2: But did you like if you are told I'm at 100 00:05:30,964 --> 00:05:33,684 Speaker 2: whatever day of the World Series main event, right you're 101 00:05:33,684 --> 00:05:35,444 Speaker 2: at the future table? Is are you happy about that 102 00:05:35,564 --> 00:05:37,444 Speaker 2: or not? Oh? 103 00:05:37,524 --> 00:05:39,924 Speaker 3: Man, that's a complicated question. That's a good questions, complicated 104 00:05:40,004 --> 00:05:43,204 Speaker 3: question because I didn't actually like the act of like 105 00:05:43,284 --> 00:05:45,644 Speaker 3: being on TV, if you will, just like, I definitely 106 00:05:45,844 --> 00:05:48,244 Speaker 3: had advantage over my competitors at a random World Series 107 00:05:48,324 --> 00:05:50,644 Speaker 3: tournament where I've been on that stage a million times 108 00:05:50,684 --> 00:05:54,244 Speaker 3: and they haven't, and I'm gonna make better decisions and stuff. 109 00:05:54,284 --> 00:05:57,284 Speaker 3: But I just didn't like it on like a visceral level. 110 00:05:58,004 --> 00:06:00,324 Speaker 3: But being on TV was actually a huge advantage for me, 111 00:06:00,364 --> 00:06:03,724 Speaker 3: I kind of like utilized that. Basically, what I mean 112 00:06:03,764 --> 00:06:05,564 Speaker 3: to say is like I got a reputation the first 113 00:06:05,564 --> 00:06:07,324 Speaker 3: time I was ever on TV. I made this like 114 00:06:07,604 --> 00:06:10,764 Speaker 3: really crazy bluff. I four bet all in with with 115 00:06:10,844 --> 00:06:13,644 Speaker 3: two five suited. It was a thing that happens now 116 00:06:13,684 --> 00:06:15,804 Speaker 3: occasionally is still considered a reckless play, but at the 117 00:06:15,804 --> 00:06:18,244 Speaker 3: time it was two thousand and six and no one 118 00:06:18,244 --> 00:06:20,604 Speaker 3: had ever seen anyone do that or like had any idea, 119 00:06:20,724 --> 00:06:22,164 Speaker 3: you know what I mean. You re raised with like 120 00:06:22,204 --> 00:06:25,364 Speaker 3: pocket aces, maybe as king if you were feeling like bluffy, 121 00:06:25,404 --> 00:06:28,484 Speaker 3: you know at the time. And so when that happened, 122 00:06:28,564 --> 00:06:31,884 Speaker 3: I got this reputation as being like the craziest person 123 00:06:32,164 --> 00:06:33,324 Speaker 3: in the world, you know, in poker. 124 00:06:33,404 --> 00:06:35,604 Speaker 1: And by the way, you managed to run into aces 125 00:06:35,604 --> 00:06:36,524 Speaker 1: in that hand. 126 00:06:36,484 --> 00:06:38,324 Speaker 3: I did manage to run to aces, And I don't 127 00:06:38,324 --> 00:06:41,124 Speaker 3: know if that was a coincidence. Having just explained that 128 00:06:41,164 --> 00:06:45,004 Speaker 3: most people that three bet usually had aces, so the 129 00:06:45,004 --> 00:06:46,724 Speaker 3: point just being like it was this crazy play, and 130 00:06:46,764 --> 00:06:49,724 Speaker 3: everybody kind of took notice, you know, They're like, I 131 00:06:49,764 --> 00:06:51,884 Speaker 3: don't look like your typical poker player. I wasn't playing 132 00:06:51,924 --> 00:06:53,964 Speaker 3: like your typical poker butler like, who is this person? 133 00:06:54,564 --> 00:06:56,524 Speaker 3: And I think that stuck out in people's mind so 134 00:06:56,644 --> 00:07:00,244 Speaker 3: much that I just instantly got this reputation for being 135 00:07:00,244 --> 00:07:03,204 Speaker 3: this like crazy, crazy player, to the point where I 136 00:07:03,204 --> 00:07:05,924 Speaker 3: would play games and I, you know, I would end 137 00:07:06,044 --> 00:07:09,564 Speaker 3: up in like one thousand big blind pots meaning for 138 00:07:09,604 --> 00:07:12,004 Speaker 3: the average view were meaning pods that were like way 139 00:07:12,004 --> 00:07:14,804 Speaker 3: bigger than your average pot, like just a giant, giant, 140 00:07:14,804 --> 00:07:16,924 Speaker 3: giant pot, and I would like go all in on 141 00:07:16,964 --> 00:07:19,284 Speaker 3: the river, and I would get called by like Ace High, 142 00:07:19,604 --> 00:07:21,044 Speaker 3: and You're just like, how do I end up in 143 00:07:21,044 --> 00:07:23,284 Speaker 3: a situation where there's like a thousand big blinds in 144 00:07:23,284 --> 00:07:24,884 Speaker 3: the middle and I'm being called by Ace High? And 145 00:07:24,964 --> 00:07:26,844 Speaker 3: so anyway to get back to the original point of 146 00:07:26,884 --> 00:07:28,804 Speaker 3: what I was saying, like I was just as crazy 147 00:07:28,804 --> 00:07:31,324 Speaker 3: player and I was never gonna shake that image. And 148 00:07:31,404 --> 00:07:33,884 Speaker 3: so it's honestly part of what led me to retire 149 00:07:33,924 --> 00:07:35,924 Speaker 3: from poker because it was pretty boring. I like really 150 00:07:35,964 --> 00:07:38,124 Speaker 3: just couldn't bluff nearly as much as your average person. 151 00:07:38,204 --> 00:07:40,244 Speaker 3: Like every story was like, so I knew they had 152 00:07:40,244 --> 00:07:43,844 Speaker 3: third pair, so I just gave up, or like you know, 153 00:07:44,044 --> 00:07:45,804 Speaker 3: or I decided I was either gonna put in you know, 154 00:07:45,844 --> 00:07:49,164 Speaker 3: my entire stack or give up. And so what I 155 00:07:49,244 --> 00:07:51,884 Speaker 3: ended up doing was realizing I was like, okay, I 156 00:07:51,964 --> 00:07:55,044 Speaker 3: literally I get the most action of any player ever, 157 00:07:55,564 --> 00:07:57,084 Speaker 3: so I just have to play tight. This is the 158 00:07:57,124 --> 00:08:01,564 Speaker 3: most profitable strategy by far. So whenever I went on TV, 159 00:08:02,444 --> 00:08:05,044 Speaker 3: if there was ever a close decision between like making 160 00:08:05,084 --> 00:08:08,444 Speaker 3: aggressive action like bluff or rays or just like folder call, 161 00:08:08,484 --> 00:08:11,084 Speaker 3: I always took the aggress action. And sometimes even when 162 00:08:11,084 --> 00:08:13,004 Speaker 3: it wasn't a close decision, you know, like when I, 163 00:08:13,444 --> 00:08:15,604 Speaker 3: you know, five bet shove with Jackson and suit whatever. 164 00:08:15,644 --> 00:08:17,644 Speaker 3: But I wasn't trying to light money on fire. But 165 00:08:17,684 --> 00:08:19,884 Speaker 3: it was this really weird real thing where it was 166 00:08:19,884 --> 00:08:21,444 Speaker 3: like I would give up a little bit of equity 167 00:08:21,524 --> 00:08:23,324 Speaker 3: or a lot of equity sometimes to just kind of 168 00:08:23,764 --> 00:08:26,644 Speaker 3: maintain this crazy image because you know, and I can 169 00:08:26,644 --> 00:08:28,724 Speaker 3: say this now because I don't play poker anymore, but 170 00:08:28,764 --> 00:08:31,604 Speaker 3: it was like a decade of me just like playing 171 00:08:32,044 --> 00:08:34,884 Speaker 3: I would say, I mean postlop I was pretty aggressive, 172 00:08:34,884 --> 00:08:37,004 Speaker 3: but like preflop I was probably tighter than like ninety 173 00:08:37,004 --> 00:08:40,924 Speaker 3: percent of the table honestly, because I couldn't never shake 174 00:08:41,004 --> 00:08:43,164 Speaker 3: that image anyway. So I was just like, let me 175 00:08:43,244 --> 00:08:45,484 Speaker 3: use these like TV time as a way to kind 176 00:08:45,484 --> 00:08:48,164 Speaker 3: of keep up my reputation, and people just believe what 177 00:08:48,164 --> 00:08:50,164 Speaker 3: they see on TV, and that was just the most 178 00:08:50,204 --> 00:08:51,204 Speaker 3: profitable way to play. 179 00:08:51,444 --> 00:08:54,204 Speaker 1: Yeah, So I think you're raising a really interesting point, 180 00:08:54,244 --> 00:08:56,924 Speaker 1: which is that you know, when you're talking about you know, 181 00:08:56,964 --> 00:08:59,164 Speaker 1: we we love poker on this show, not just because 182 00:08:59,204 --> 00:09:01,284 Speaker 1: we all play poker, but because it's such a great 183 00:09:01,284 --> 00:09:04,124 Speaker 1: way of looking at decision making. And I think you 184 00:09:04,124 --> 00:09:06,764 Speaker 1: you're raising a really important point, which is that no 185 00:09:06,844 --> 00:09:08,204 Speaker 1: decision is made in a vacuum. 186 00:09:08,284 --> 00:09:08,444 Speaker 3: Right. 187 00:09:08,724 --> 00:09:12,364 Speaker 1: I have a very different reputation from yours, but you know, 188 00:09:12,404 --> 00:09:14,364 Speaker 1: I've been a bounty in big events and I hate 189 00:09:14,364 --> 00:09:16,404 Speaker 1: it because you can't bluff. Right, It's kind of the 190 00:09:16,444 --> 00:09:16,764 Speaker 1: same thing. 191 00:09:16,924 --> 00:09:18,564 Speaker 2: We're just funny thing. We're like, we'll talk up. So 192 00:09:18,604 --> 00:09:21,324 Speaker 2: you've said, I think a couple of times, Maria, we're like, okay, 193 00:09:21,844 --> 00:09:24,204 Speaker 2: when you make a big shove or a big bet 194 00:09:24,284 --> 00:09:28,324 Speaker 2: on the river and an opponent tanks, and if you're 195 00:09:28,364 --> 00:09:30,644 Speaker 2: not a poker fan, that means they're waiting, you know, 196 00:09:31,724 --> 00:09:33,724 Speaker 2: at least half a minute to several minutes to make 197 00:09:33,764 --> 00:09:34,204 Speaker 2: a decision. 198 00:09:34,244 --> 00:09:34,404 Speaker 3: Right. 199 00:09:34,764 --> 00:09:37,524 Speaker 2: In my experience, when they tank against me, they fold 200 00:09:37,924 --> 00:09:39,804 Speaker 2: two thirds of the time. Right, And you said it's 201 00:09:39,804 --> 00:09:41,084 Speaker 2: the opposite for me, they. 202 00:09:40,964 --> 00:09:43,204 Speaker 1: Call right for me. The longer they tank, the more 203 00:09:43,244 --> 00:09:46,684 Speaker 1: I'm like, okay, motherfucker, just call already, right, like, you know, 204 00:09:46,844 --> 00:09:49,684 Speaker 1: just stop, take me out of my misery hand. And 205 00:09:49,724 --> 00:09:52,524 Speaker 1: it is, you know, it is so incredibly you know, 206 00:09:52,564 --> 00:09:55,164 Speaker 1: there's I think that's one of the interesting things about poker. 207 00:09:55,164 --> 00:09:58,164 Speaker 1: And I'm curious, you know, how how you see it 208 00:09:58,324 --> 00:10:00,684 Speaker 1: both in poker and outside of poker, kind of that 209 00:10:00,764 --> 00:10:03,884 Speaker 1: added layer to it, right that there is it's not 210 00:10:04,044 --> 00:10:07,884 Speaker 1: just the math, right, that every single risk assessment, every 211 00:10:07,964 --> 00:10:12,444 Speaker 1: single decision is so dependent on the player, on the situation, 212 00:10:12,724 --> 00:10:15,124 Speaker 1: on the dynamics, on all of those things. The math 213 00:10:15,204 --> 00:10:19,244 Speaker 1: is there, right, the math matters, but but there's so 214 00:10:19,364 --> 00:10:20,404 Speaker 1: much more going on. 215 00:10:20,204 --> 00:10:22,204 Speaker 3: One hundred percent. And I think your point about like 216 00:10:22,244 --> 00:10:24,444 Speaker 3: the longer it takes that being the key point of 217 00:10:24,484 --> 00:10:29,044 Speaker 3: divergence is like a really a really great perception because 218 00:10:29,044 --> 00:10:31,604 Speaker 3: I think that is like we have all these kind 219 00:10:31,644 --> 00:10:36,564 Speaker 3: of emotional biases and you know, like if you usually 220 00:10:36,644 --> 00:10:38,524 Speaker 3: your brain is kind of leading the charge for the 221 00:10:38,564 --> 00:10:41,484 Speaker 3: first like beginning of your decision making, right, and then 222 00:10:41,924 --> 00:10:45,604 Speaker 3: eventually it's like the emotional the monkey brain or whatever 223 00:10:45,604 --> 00:10:47,684 Speaker 3: it takes over. And that's what I used to say 224 00:10:47,724 --> 00:10:49,724 Speaker 3: about you know, to go back to that story about 225 00:10:49,724 --> 00:10:52,204 Speaker 3: how people would call me with these crazy, crazy hands, 226 00:10:52,244 --> 00:10:54,964 Speaker 3: and it's like there were hands where the only way 227 00:10:55,084 --> 00:10:58,524 Speaker 3: to correct call if I'm like bluffing with a part 228 00:10:58,524 --> 00:11:00,884 Speaker 3: of my rain, like we're spots, you're supposed to bluff 229 00:11:00,924 --> 00:11:02,604 Speaker 3: like fifteen percent, they would have to have assumed I 230 00:11:02,604 --> 00:11:05,364 Speaker 3: was bluffing like eighty percent to make the call. And 231 00:11:05,404 --> 00:11:07,924 Speaker 3: it's like, Okay, you see a person who's had like 232 00:11:08,044 --> 00:11:11,004 Speaker 3: very good poker results. Could I be like the one 233 00:11:11,204 --> 00:11:13,524 Speaker 3: point zho one percent luckiest person and just a terrible 234 00:11:13,524 --> 00:11:16,484 Speaker 3: poker player. I guess it's possible, athough, like from a 235 00:11:16,484 --> 00:11:21,284 Speaker 3: Baysian perspective, like probably, like if the other priors that like, 236 00:11:21,324 --> 00:11:24,604 Speaker 3: you're wrong about my range, like probably that should be 237 00:11:24,644 --> 00:11:27,524 Speaker 3: a stronger prior, but like hey, never mind. So you know, 238 00:11:28,004 --> 00:11:30,484 Speaker 3: people would make these calls where I'm like, Okay, the 239 00:11:30,564 --> 00:11:33,444 Speaker 3: only way that this call could be correct is if 240 00:11:33,484 --> 00:11:36,084 Speaker 3: I'm just a terrible player and getting lucky all the time. 241 00:11:36,084 --> 00:11:37,964 Speaker 3: Like there's no way that I could be a successful 242 00:11:37,964 --> 00:11:39,924 Speaker 3: player and be bluffing the frequency that it needs to be. 243 00:11:40,244 --> 00:11:42,644 Speaker 3: But it didn't matter, Like it was just like I've 244 00:11:42,684 --> 00:11:44,244 Speaker 3: seen you on TV I call you know what I mean, 245 00:11:44,364 --> 00:11:46,564 Speaker 3: or like, I'm not gonna be bluffed by you. I'm 246 00:11:46,564 --> 00:11:50,324 Speaker 3: not gonna be bullied by you. And it was truly 247 00:11:50,364 --> 00:11:54,044 Speaker 3: incredible because if you really just thought about it from 248 00:11:54,124 --> 00:11:57,044 Speaker 3: a from a logical decision making like rational perspective, it 249 00:11:57,044 --> 00:11:59,764 Speaker 3: would just be an absurd way to play against anyone. 250 00:11:59,844 --> 00:12:02,124 Speaker 2: So I'm curious. So you think when people take longer 251 00:12:02,164 --> 00:12:05,164 Speaker 2: to make a decision that they get more emotional because 252 00:12:05,204 --> 00:12:07,684 Speaker 2: people would say, well, I'm going through all the all 253 00:12:07,724 --> 00:12:10,084 Speaker 2: the different combinations and thinking through things carefully. You think 254 00:12:10,084 --> 00:12:11,364 Speaker 2: that like actually kind of like. 255 00:12:11,404 --> 00:12:15,484 Speaker 1: I think mostly there, yeah, a few people are thinking 256 00:12:15,524 --> 00:12:16,444 Speaker 1: through the combinations. 257 00:12:16,484 --> 00:12:18,924 Speaker 3: But even if you're thinking through the combinations, I think, like, 258 00:12:19,044 --> 00:12:21,764 Speaker 3: even in a really complicated way, it takes you like 259 00:12:21,844 --> 00:12:23,964 Speaker 3: max thirty seconds to get like ninety percent of the 260 00:12:24,004 --> 00:12:26,644 Speaker 3: way there. Like, I just think that time is allowing 261 00:12:26,764 --> 00:12:30,524 Speaker 3: so much more emotional stuff to creep in that it's 262 00:12:30,604 --> 00:12:34,284 Speaker 3: just like the ratio of like math to emotion is 263 00:12:34,324 --> 00:12:36,764 Speaker 3: just like definitely going down over time. 264 00:12:36,964 --> 00:12:40,484 Speaker 2: Totally agree if you so, you were kind of playing 265 00:12:40,484 --> 00:12:43,844 Speaker 2: in the era before solvers became quite so ubiquitous. 266 00:12:43,964 --> 00:12:45,884 Speaker 1: If I don't think they existed at the beginning when 267 00:12:45,924 --> 00:12:46,724 Speaker 1: I've literally. 268 00:12:46,444 --> 00:12:47,564 Speaker 3: Never used a solver before. 269 00:12:47,644 --> 00:12:51,404 Speaker 2: So and a solver, if you're not aware at home, 270 00:12:51,604 --> 00:12:55,644 Speaker 2: is a product that literally solves the Nash equilibrium for a. 271 00:12:55,644 --> 00:12:58,764 Speaker 1: Poker literally since it doesn't actually exist. But yes, wait, 272 00:12:58,804 --> 00:12:59,164 Speaker 1: what do you. 273 00:12:59,124 --> 00:13:01,644 Speaker 2: Mean, Well, there's a because you a nashqlibrium Truther. 274 00:13:02,004 --> 00:13:05,324 Speaker 1: No, but because poker is an unsolved game, it approximates 275 00:13:05,324 --> 00:13:05,804 Speaker 1: a solution. 276 00:13:06,044 --> 00:13:10,764 Speaker 3: But it's true to break down, it's true. Well wow, sorry, 277 00:13:11,844 --> 00:13:15,404 Speaker 3: that is true technically. Actually, you know, I feel like 278 00:13:15,404 --> 00:13:17,484 Speaker 3: when you need that means literally Truther. 279 00:13:17,764 --> 00:13:21,804 Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, would you how would you play differently today? 280 00:13:21,884 --> 00:13:25,244 Speaker 2: Do you think you'd try to be more quote unquote 281 00:13:25,244 --> 00:13:27,844 Speaker 2: gto driven or even or less so or this or 282 00:13:27,884 --> 00:13:28,164 Speaker 2: the same? 283 00:13:28,324 --> 00:13:30,284 Speaker 3: That's that's a great question. And so my goal is 284 00:13:30,324 --> 00:13:31,884 Speaker 3: just to make the most money, right, it's not to 285 00:13:32,044 --> 00:13:34,524 Speaker 3: like play in a way that makes Jane Street look 286 00:13:34,804 --> 00:13:37,564 Speaker 3: more like a reasonable place and not make crazy bluffs. Right. 287 00:13:38,044 --> 00:13:42,124 Speaker 3: So okay, just under that premise, I would say, I think, 288 00:13:43,404 --> 00:13:46,764 Speaker 3: I mean, so in my career, I'm a trader, like 289 00:13:47,364 --> 00:13:49,764 Speaker 3: poker player, trader or whatever. It is, Like you think 290 00:13:49,804 --> 00:13:54,244 Speaker 3: about where does your edge come from? And uh, it's 291 00:13:54,244 --> 00:13:57,004 Speaker 3: certainly for me not in playing GTO better than anybody 292 00:13:57,044 --> 00:14:00,964 Speaker 3: else at this point, Like I've literally never used to solver. 293 00:14:01,164 --> 00:14:03,884 Speaker 3: I've never studied it. I'm also very unpracticed from the game, 294 00:14:04,084 --> 00:14:07,004 Speaker 3: and so I don't even remember like what the lines 295 00:14:07,044 --> 00:14:09,044 Speaker 3: I'm supposed to take in various spots are. Like I 296 00:14:09,124 --> 00:14:10,964 Speaker 3: used to come close enough to what the solvers would 297 00:14:10,964 --> 00:14:12,604 Speaker 3: say if I had used them. It was actually like 298 00:14:12,764 --> 00:14:14,484 Speaker 3: pretty cool. I would ask my friends, and I'd be like, 299 00:14:14,604 --> 00:14:16,684 Speaker 3: I kind of got there, you know, just from understanding 300 00:14:16,724 --> 00:14:20,084 Speaker 3: the theoretical underpinnings of the game. And I'm pretty far 301 00:14:20,084 --> 00:14:22,524 Speaker 3: from that because I really play maybe once or twice 302 00:14:22,524 --> 00:14:25,044 Speaker 3: a year at this point for the last almost decades, 303 00:14:25,124 --> 00:14:28,804 Speaker 3: so you know, I don't have to play less GGO. 304 00:14:29,364 --> 00:14:31,404 Speaker 3: My strategy back then was to put people, you know, 305 00:14:31,484 --> 00:14:33,324 Speaker 3: people that were trying to play GTO that I thought 306 00:14:33,324 --> 00:14:36,404 Speaker 3: were just kind of like memorizing, and like there was 307 00:14:36,404 --> 00:14:38,284 Speaker 3: this there's this class of poker players that was like 308 00:14:38,284 --> 00:14:40,964 Speaker 3: successful because they were good at memorizing things and not 309 00:14:40,964 --> 00:14:44,124 Speaker 3: not that great at thinking through things. And so I 310 00:14:44,164 --> 00:14:45,964 Speaker 3: was like, Okay, let me sacrifice a little bit of 311 00:14:46,044 --> 00:14:49,644 Speaker 3: EV on an early part of the hand in order 312 00:14:49,764 --> 00:14:51,644 Speaker 3: to get them into a spot they're very unused to, 313 00:14:51,724 --> 00:14:54,124 Speaker 3: uncomfortable with, and just outreason them in a spot where 314 00:14:54,164 --> 00:14:57,084 Speaker 3: the pot is much bigger. And I would just do 315 00:14:57,124 --> 00:14:59,844 Speaker 3: that repeatedly, and kind of through doing that, I would, 316 00:15:00,644 --> 00:15:03,404 Speaker 3: you know, kind of figure out where the population where 317 00:15:03,404 --> 00:15:06,684 Speaker 3: most players were making the most mistakes and you know, 318 00:15:06,804 --> 00:15:08,964 Speaker 3: and so I think I would just do that, but 319 00:15:09,004 --> 00:15:12,364 Speaker 3: even more because I think my edge there is probably 320 00:15:12,404 --> 00:15:14,564 Speaker 3: still similar to what it is now. You know, it 321 00:15:14,604 --> 00:15:16,204 Speaker 3: would take me a while. I probably wouldn't be winning 322 00:15:16,204 --> 00:15:19,004 Speaker 3: at first doing that, because I think part of the 323 00:15:19,004 --> 00:15:22,204 Speaker 3: reason that was such a successful strategy for me was 324 00:15:22,244 --> 00:15:24,724 Speaker 3: like I would just see the same thing over and over. 325 00:15:24,764 --> 00:15:26,844 Speaker 3: I would be like, you know, I don't know, not 326 00:15:26,884 --> 00:15:28,524 Speaker 3: to make it too pokery, but I'd be like, oh, 327 00:15:28,564 --> 00:15:30,324 Speaker 3: I check the turn in a spot that no one 328 00:15:30,404 --> 00:15:32,364 Speaker 3: would and then I would like raise small and then 329 00:15:32,524 --> 00:15:34,964 Speaker 3: you know whatever, like some weird line that no one takes, 330 00:15:35,004 --> 00:15:36,244 Speaker 3: but I would take it a lot, And so I 331 00:15:36,244 --> 00:15:40,044 Speaker 3: would see how people would react over and over again. 332 00:15:40,124 --> 00:15:42,524 Speaker 3: But I think, like whenever you're making any decision, and 333 00:15:42,524 --> 00:15:45,044 Speaker 3: I think this applies to trading way even more than poker, 334 00:15:45,404 --> 00:15:49,124 Speaker 3: it's just like thinking through really really carefully like where 335 00:15:49,164 --> 00:15:51,164 Speaker 3: does your edge come from? Where does my edge not 336 00:15:51,204 --> 00:15:53,884 Speaker 3: come from? Where am I getting outplayed? And so that 337 00:15:53,884 --> 00:15:54,964 Speaker 3: would have to be the answers. 338 00:15:55,084 --> 00:15:59,004 Speaker 2: No, I would much rather play against like a gto 339 00:16:00,124 --> 00:16:03,044 Speaker 2: perfect player than like Vanessa. 340 00:16:03,084 --> 00:16:05,404 Speaker 1: I think it's such a smart strategy, both in poke 341 00:16:05,404 --> 00:16:08,724 Speaker 1: around in life to put people in parts of the 342 00:16:08,724 --> 00:16:11,804 Speaker 1: game tree where they're not as familiar, right, get them 343 00:16:11,844 --> 00:16:14,404 Speaker 1: out of their comfort zone. And I've been on the 344 00:16:14,444 --> 00:16:16,524 Speaker 1: receiving end of that when I was just starting out. 345 00:16:16,524 --> 00:16:18,564 Speaker 1: There are some people who are very exploited of players. 346 00:16:18,604 --> 00:16:21,044 Speaker 1: I still remember a hand I played against someone you 347 00:16:21,084 --> 00:16:24,884 Speaker 1: know of Vanessa Joe Chong, and he defended the blinds. 348 00:16:24,884 --> 00:16:27,084 Speaker 1: I was a pre flap raiser. He checked, I bet 349 00:16:27,284 --> 00:16:30,204 Speaker 1: and then he led the turn and I was already 350 00:16:30,204 --> 00:16:33,364 Speaker 1: planning to bet that turn. I was a perfect barrel 351 00:16:33,404 --> 00:16:36,244 Speaker 1: cart and he led it. I was like, what the hell, 352 00:16:37,124 --> 00:16:40,684 Speaker 1: what are you doing? And it really I messed up. 353 00:16:40,684 --> 00:16:42,804 Speaker 1: I ended up busting the tournament on that hand. 354 00:16:43,644 --> 00:16:45,444 Speaker 3: And he's probably done that a bunch of times. But 355 00:16:45,564 --> 00:16:48,044 Speaker 3: now he kind of understands how people in their first 356 00:16:48,044 --> 00:16:51,004 Speaker 3: time reacting to that react and you know, the mistakes 357 00:16:51,044 --> 00:16:53,924 Speaker 3: wind up being way bigger. Yeah, he's making a conscious decision. 358 00:16:53,924 --> 00:16:55,964 Speaker 3: You know. It's really interesting. One thing I have heard 359 00:16:56,004 --> 00:16:57,924 Speaker 3: that Once again, I don't know anything about this, so 360 00:16:57,964 --> 00:17:00,284 Speaker 3: if I might be speaking on my ass but I 361 00:17:00,284 --> 00:17:04,044 Speaker 3: think you can do things like node lock. So if 362 00:17:04,084 --> 00:17:07,124 Speaker 3: you make some assumptions about, you know, the way a 363 00:17:07,164 --> 00:17:10,044 Speaker 3: player will react in a certain spot, you can like 364 00:17:10,884 --> 00:17:13,044 Speaker 3: you know, that's different than GTO. I think you can 365 00:17:13,044 --> 00:17:14,484 Speaker 3: no luck and then you can like kind of go 366 00:17:14,524 --> 00:17:16,724 Speaker 3: back and say, okay, like conditional on them reacting a 367 00:17:16,724 --> 00:17:20,524 Speaker 3: certain way, what is my gto play? And like that's 368 00:17:20,564 --> 00:17:22,564 Speaker 3: what GGO is about. It's not or that's what like 369 00:17:22,724 --> 00:17:24,884 Speaker 3: just I guess solid strategy and anything is about. It's 370 00:17:24,924 --> 00:17:27,524 Speaker 3: not like supposed to be this rigid thing. It's supposed 371 00:17:27,524 --> 00:17:30,004 Speaker 3: to be a way to say, okay, conditional on these 372 00:17:30,044 --> 00:17:32,684 Speaker 3: assumptions I'm making about the world, what is the best 373 00:17:32,684 --> 00:17:36,004 Speaker 3: course of action. The problem is that gdo pure GTO. 374 00:17:36,364 --> 00:17:39,404 Speaker 3: The assumption that it's relying on is that everybody else 375 00:17:39,484 --> 00:17:42,404 Speaker 3: is going to play perfectly. And then if you condition 376 00:17:42,484 --> 00:17:45,204 Speaker 3: on different assumptions, it's going to tell you like different things. 377 00:17:45,444 --> 00:17:46,604 Speaker 3: And so that's pretty cool. 378 00:17:50,884 --> 00:18:03,964 Speaker 1: And we'll be back right after this. You have a 379 00:18:04,084 --> 00:18:08,564 Speaker 1: unique background for people who went into the world of poker, 380 00:18:09,044 --> 00:18:11,164 Speaker 1: And I mean, I think something that unites a lot 381 00:18:11,204 --> 00:18:14,404 Speaker 1: of what you've done is kind of the competitive edge 382 00:18:14,444 --> 00:18:17,204 Speaker 1: to it, the love of games. But you went to 383 00:18:17,284 --> 00:18:20,204 Speaker 1: undergrad you studied political science, right, and then you played 384 00:18:20,244 --> 00:18:24,524 Speaker 1: poker after that. But then even though you were ridiculously successful, 385 00:18:24,844 --> 00:18:28,524 Speaker 1: you didn't go pro. You went to law school and 386 00:18:28,724 --> 00:18:32,884 Speaker 1: only then after law school did you go into professional poker. 387 00:18:32,884 --> 00:18:36,204 Speaker 1: Can you talk us through that and how kind of 388 00:18:37,124 --> 00:18:40,484 Speaker 1: how that thinking went and kind of what the strand, 389 00:18:41,084 --> 00:18:43,564 Speaker 1: whether the strand that I have picked out, kind of 390 00:18:43,604 --> 00:18:46,004 Speaker 1: the competition and kind of the game aspect of it 391 00:18:46,044 --> 00:18:48,124 Speaker 1: is correct or not? You know, how did that all 392 00:18:48,124 --> 00:18:48,484 Speaker 1: work out? 393 00:18:48,564 --> 00:18:51,364 Speaker 3: It's not that deep. For me. It was mostly me 394 00:18:51,524 --> 00:18:53,884 Speaker 3: trying to convince myself I'm not a degenerate, when in 395 00:18:53,924 --> 00:19:00,244 Speaker 3: fact I am a degenerate. So yeah, that was I mean, honestly, 396 00:19:00,484 --> 00:19:02,604 Speaker 3: it was a lot of like, oh, this isn't actually 397 00:19:02,604 --> 00:19:04,204 Speaker 3: what I'm doing for a career, right, Like that's not 398 00:19:04,244 --> 00:19:07,604 Speaker 3: a real career, and so it was much more like 399 00:19:07,604 --> 00:19:09,164 Speaker 3: a hobby. And honestly it kind of always was a 400 00:19:09,204 --> 00:19:09,884 Speaker 3: hot be for me. 401 00:19:10,284 --> 00:19:11,284 Speaker 1: When did you start playing? 402 00:19:12,244 --> 00:19:14,684 Speaker 3: And like, well, I mean I started playing in high school, 403 00:19:14,724 --> 00:19:17,484 Speaker 3: like when we watched Rounders. Oh wow, my friends and 404 00:19:17,524 --> 00:19:22,124 Speaker 3: I love to play. Yeah, old school, and so yeah, 405 00:19:22,124 --> 00:19:23,284 Speaker 3: my friends and I used to play in like the 406 00:19:23,364 --> 00:19:26,684 Speaker 3: lunch room. But but I started getting more serious at Yale. 407 00:19:26,724 --> 00:19:30,004 Speaker 3: There was a like a game where like a bunch 408 00:19:30,004 --> 00:19:31,764 Speaker 3: of people were like getting pretty serious about the game. 409 00:19:31,764 --> 00:19:33,524 Speaker 3: And I discovered two plus two and I started going 410 00:19:33,564 --> 00:19:36,804 Speaker 3: to Foxwits every week, and you know, so the story goes, 411 00:19:37,964 --> 00:19:39,844 Speaker 3: and then so I played for a few years and 412 00:19:39,884 --> 00:19:41,564 Speaker 3: it was okay, But then I don't know, I just 413 00:19:41,564 --> 00:19:44,524 Speaker 3: like thought, I don't know, you know, like you're from 414 00:19:44,684 --> 00:19:47,484 Speaker 3: like an upper middle class Jewish background. You're like, you know, 415 00:19:47,524 --> 00:19:49,964 Speaker 3: you're taught like education, blah blah blah, Like I'd done 416 00:19:50,004 --> 00:19:51,844 Speaker 3: well in school. I thought that was kind of just 417 00:19:51,844 --> 00:19:53,244 Speaker 3: like the path. I thought this was just kind of 418 00:19:53,284 --> 00:19:57,964 Speaker 3: like a fun sidetrack thing for me. And so yeah, 419 00:19:58,044 --> 00:19:59,604 Speaker 3: I took all my money offline when I went to 420 00:19:59,684 --> 00:20:01,684 Speaker 3: law school, and I was like, I'm not not doing this. 421 00:20:01,764 --> 00:20:03,804 Speaker 3: I'm not going to like fall into playing pograming nor 422 00:20:03,884 --> 00:20:05,804 Speaker 3: my studies. This is like a great opportunity. That's what 423 00:20:05,804 --> 00:20:06,924 Speaker 3: I always wanted to do. 424 00:20:07,764 --> 00:20:09,404 Speaker 1: And you'd always wanted to be a lawyer. 425 00:20:10,124 --> 00:20:12,684 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I thought I did. I mean that, you know, 426 00:20:12,724 --> 00:20:15,164 Speaker 3: there's like, you know, you don't know what careers actually 427 00:20:15,204 --> 00:20:17,004 Speaker 3: are available to when you're younger, but. 428 00:20:17,204 --> 00:20:18,564 Speaker 2: It's kind of done that they make you pick when 429 00:20:18,564 --> 00:20:18,924 Speaker 2: you're young. 430 00:20:19,764 --> 00:20:23,564 Speaker 3: Yeah, I know. But uh yeah, so I had no idea. 431 00:20:23,564 --> 00:20:25,364 Speaker 3: So so I thought I wanted to be a lawyer, 432 00:20:26,444 --> 00:20:28,444 Speaker 3: and I just ended up falling back into poker because 433 00:20:28,484 --> 00:20:31,324 Speaker 3: I just ran like hotter than the sun in law school. 434 00:20:31,604 --> 00:20:35,844 Speaker 3: Like there were these four tournaments that I played like two. 435 00:20:35,884 --> 00:20:37,324 Speaker 3: There was one tournament Fox that it was in one 436 00:20:37,324 --> 00:20:41,484 Speaker 3: tournament Mohigan both years, and I played some like it 437 00:20:41,604 --> 00:20:43,684 Speaker 3: was like you know, a three K, a three K. 438 00:20:43,764 --> 00:20:45,404 Speaker 3: There was a main event or some and I just 439 00:20:45,444 --> 00:20:47,124 Speaker 3: like one three of them and got third in the 440 00:20:47,164 --> 00:20:51,644 Speaker 3: other one. It was, Yeah, it was really dumb. It was. 441 00:20:51,684 --> 00:20:53,084 Speaker 3: I mean, part of it was probably like I was 442 00:20:53,124 --> 00:20:55,084 Speaker 3: not being in my own head anymore about like I 443 00:20:55,124 --> 00:20:56,644 Speaker 3: was still not far enough from move poker that I 444 00:20:56,644 --> 00:20:58,364 Speaker 3: was still pretty good at it. Everybody else was terrible 445 00:20:58,364 --> 00:21:02,364 Speaker 3: at that time, and and I was just like feeling it, 446 00:21:02,404 --> 00:21:03,644 Speaker 3: you know what I mean. I didn't care. I was 447 00:21:03,684 --> 00:21:05,884 Speaker 3: just playing my game and stuff. So obviously I was 448 00:21:05,924 --> 00:21:08,564 Speaker 3: also running hotter than the sun, and so I kind 449 00:21:08,564 --> 00:21:09,804 Speaker 3: of just fell back into it. Point. 450 00:21:09,844 --> 00:21:11,804 Speaker 2: Have you seen twenty one, which is a movie adaptation 451 00:21:11,924 --> 00:21:14,484 Speaker 2: of Bring Down the House? Right? Yeah, they like fly 452 00:21:14,644 --> 00:21:18,124 Speaker 2: back from like Vegas with like tens of thousands of 453 00:21:18,124 --> 00:21:19,804 Speaker 2: dollars in their pockets, right, and they have to like 454 00:21:19,884 --> 00:21:22,564 Speaker 2: go to their fucking like Monday morning classes. Where you 455 00:21:22,604 --> 00:21:26,244 Speaker 2: feel like I am cooler and or smarter than these people. 456 00:21:26,684 --> 00:21:28,884 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean not cooler or smarter. That 457 00:21:28,884 --> 00:21:31,244 Speaker 3: definitely was smarter, was definitely not up there, but it 458 00:21:31,324 --> 00:21:33,404 Speaker 3: was like definitely like honestly I would better, you know 459 00:21:33,484 --> 00:21:35,284 Speaker 3: what I mean. I felt like on top of the 460 00:21:35,284 --> 00:21:37,444 Speaker 3: world for sure. It was always really fun. 461 00:21:37,484 --> 00:21:39,164 Speaker 2: So how long were you kind of doing the whole 462 00:21:40,164 --> 00:21:43,684 Speaker 2: poker tournament live world travel scene and like just because 463 00:21:43,724 --> 00:21:45,804 Speaker 2: like not many people do that, right, And Yeah, I'm 464 00:21:45,804 --> 00:21:47,724 Speaker 2: interested in you because you're not somebody I think if 465 00:21:47,764 --> 00:21:49,924 Speaker 2: you you know, you have a lot of attitude, peness 466 00:21:50,084 --> 00:21:53,164 Speaker 2: at a lot of a lot of things. Yeah, so 467 00:21:53,244 --> 00:21:55,084 Speaker 2: you might not always find your way into this, But like, 468 00:21:55,124 --> 00:21:58,364 Speaker 2: what's it like for someone like you, young, openly gay, 469 00:21:58,484 --> 00:22:01,324 Speaker 2: very bright, has you know, is interested in politics in 470 00:22:01,364 --> 00:22:03,524 Speaker 2: the world. What's it like kind of being on the 471 00:22:03,564 --> 00:22:06,044 Speaker 2: poker scene for a few years, the kind of grindiness 472 00:22:06,084 --> 00:22:07,364 Speaker 2: of it or the glamour of it. 473 00:22:08,124 --> 00:22:14,084 Speaker 3: Yeah, honestly, I like never really felt like a poker pro. 474 00:22:14,164 --> 00:22:16,044 Speaker 3: And I know that's weird to say. To answer your question, 475 00:22:16,084 --> 00:22:19,204 Speaker 3: I played. I would say it was like close as 476 00:22:19,244 --> 00:22:21,484 Speaker 3: close to full time as I ever was from twenty 477 00:22:21,524 --> 00:22:24,604 Speaker 3: eleven to twenty seventeen. So that was kind of like 478 00:22:24,644 --> 00:22:26,844 Speaker 3: the main part of my poker career when I was 479 00:22:26,884 --> 00:22:31,004 Speaker 3: mostly not doing other things, although I still dabbled, dabbled 480 00:22:31,004 --> 00:22:33,244 Speaker 3: in law because I think I was still always trying 481 00:22:33,244 --> 00:22:36,484 Speaker 3: to convince myself that I wasn't really a poker player 482 00:22:36,564 --> 00:22:41,124 Speaker 3: or something. But yeah, because honestly, it was hard. It 483 00:22:41,164 --> 00:22:43,964 Speaker 3: was like I think it can be really fun, you know, 484 00:22:44,044 --> 00:22:47,284 Speaker 3: you you know like it it's you know, you're playing poker. 485 00:22:47,604 --> 00:22:49,644 Speaker 3: It's the ultimate lifestyle. You're seeing the world. I mean, 486 00:22:49,684 --> 00:22:51,804 Speaker 3: I don't want to downplay like it was. It was 487 00:22:51,844 --> 00:22:53,924 Speaker 3: really great and it was really fun. You're you're seeing 488 00:22:53,964 --> 00:22:57,444 Speaker 3: the world, you know, traveling from country to country or whatever. 489 00:22:57,924 --> 00:23:00,564 Speaker 3: You get to play a game pretty much all day 490 00:23:00,564 --> 00:23:02,244 Speaker 3: every day if you want to. If you wake up 491 00:23:02,284 --> 00:23:03,684 Speaker 3: and you don't feel like going to work. You don't 492 00:23:03,724 --> 00:23:06,164 Speaker 3: go to work like you you know, you were in 493 00:23:06,284 --> 00:23:09,404 Speaker 3: ultimate control of everything, and at the end of the day, 494 00:23:09,484 --> 00:23:11,844 Speaker 3: it's really fun. You're meeting really interesting people from all 495 00:23:11,884 --> 00:23:15,004 Speaker 3: over the world. I did find it hard, I guess, 496 00:23:15,084 --> 00:23:19,764 Speaker 3: to kind of stay informed and stay kind of doing 497 00:23:19,844 --> 00:23:22,404 Speaker 3: things that felt like meaningful. I think a lot of 498 00:23:22,404 --> 00:23:24,804 Speaker 3: foker players struggle with that, like finding meaning, Like when 499 00:23:24,804 --> 00:23:27,084 Speaker 3: you're just playing a card game all the time, it's like, 500 00:23:27,164 --> 00:23:28,484 Speaker 3: kind of what is the point of this? You know? 501 00:23:29,044 --> 00:23:31,324 Speaker 3: When I was doing law, my goal was to be 502 00:23:31,324 --> 00:23:34,364 Speaker 3: a civil rights attorney, but I just, you know, my 503 00:23:34,444 --> 00:23:36,044 Speaker 3: brain is built in a certain way, and I tried 504 00:23:36,124 --> 00:23:38,964 Speaker 3: being a lawyer, but it was horribly inefficient and just 505 00:23:39,044 --> 00:23:42,564 Speaker 3: like I just couldn't do it, Like it just felt 506 00:23:42,564 --> 00:23:45,884 Speaker 3: really slow and not like fun. And I think poker 507 00:23:45,884 --> 00:23:47,484 Speaker 3: and trading is the thing that like gets me really 508 00:23:47,524 --> 00:23:50,004 Speaker 3: excited in terms of the strategy, Like you're constantly making 509 00:23:50,004 --> 00:23:53,684 Speaker 3: strategic decisions like every second of the day. So for me, 510 00:23:54,364 --> 00:23:56,004 Speaker 3: it was just sort of like an evolution of my 511 00:23:56,244 --> 00:23:58,404 Speaker 3: understanding of self that I that I knew this is 512 00:23:58,404 --> 00:24:00,764 Speaker 3: what like made me happy, and then what do I 513 00:24:00,804 --> 00:24:03,404 Speaker 3: have to do to make meaning for myself in the world, 514 00:24:03,404 --> 00:24:05,524 Speaker 3: and so being in the poker world, it was just 515 00:24:05,564 --> 00:24:08,524 Speaker 3: like hard to kind of be more well rounded, like 516 00:24:08,604 --> 00:24:10,724 Speaker 3: have interest into in places. It was like, you know, 517 00:24:10,724 --> 00:24:13,004 Speaker 3: when you're traveling, there's this weird disoriented thing of like 518 00:24:13,044 --> 00:24:16,604 Speaker 3: being your physical environment kind of dictates like what you're 519 00:24:16,604 --> 00:24:18,484 Speaker 3: thinking about or what you're focusing on. And so for me, 520 00:24:18,524 --> 00:24:21,044 Speaker 3: it's like, now I have a boring routine. I have kids, 521 00:24:21,164 --> 00:24:23,564 Speaker 3: I wake up, I like have my boring commute, I 522 00:24:23,644 --> 00:24:24,764 Speaker 3: like go to the office, you know what I mean, 523 00:24:24,764 --> 00:24:26,804 Speaker 3: Like I just kind of like understand what life is. 524 00:24:27,444 --> 00:24:29,764 Speaker 2: If you have a big trade on, do you enjoy 525 00:24:29,764 --> 00:24:30,484 Speaker 2: the sweat of that? 526 00:24:31,804 --> 00:24:34,804 Speaker 1: What he's asking is, are you still a djen Vanessa? 527 00:24:34,964 --> 00:24:37,244 Speaker 3: Am I still a dgen? Yeah? No, for sure, I'm 528 00:24:37,244 --> 00:24:40,444 Speaker 3: still a DGEN, much more so than anybody else. I'm like, 529 00:24:41,004 --> 00:24:43,004 Speaker 3: for sure, I like to, you know, sweat the outcome 530 00:24:43,004 --> 00:24:45,364 Speaker 3: of trades and stuff. But you're you know, but but 531 00:24:45,484 --> 00:24:47,364 Speaker 3: much less than poker than I you know, it's not 532 00:24:47,524 --> 00:24:49,044 Speaker 3: like the most DGEN exciting stuff. 533 00:24:49,084 --> 00:24:53,164 Speaker 2: Okay, so you're playing poker, I can imagine a very 534 00:24:53,284 --> 00:24:56,884 Speaker 2: very particular skills set. I don't know if I want 535 00:24:56,884 --> 00:24:58,924 Speaker 2: to stereotype people I can imagine a very particular type 536 00:24:58,924 --> 00:25:03,644 Speaker 2: person has like poor social skills and it's very undisciplined, 537 00:25:03,724 --> 00:25:06,644 Speaker 2: right for whom like poker is a maximizing amount of money, 538 00:25:06,684 --> 00:25:11,244 Speaker 2: but for for ninety seven percent of good players, then 539 00:25:11,604 --> 00:25:14,484 Speaker 2: you can probably make more money doing something else if 540 00:25:14,484 --> 00:25:15,844 Speaker 2: you still want it to be a DJ, and then 541 00:25:15,844 --> 00:25:17,844 Speaker 2: you can go work for Hedge fund or something. 542 00:25:17,884 --> 00:25:21,564 Speaker 1: But like, I mean, when you shots fired, how. 543 00:25:21,404 --> 00:25:22,604 Speaker 2: Did you get into this industry? 544 00:25:22,604 --> 00:25:22,644 Speaker 3: That? 545 00:25:22,644 --> 00:25:25,404 Speaker 2: Because I mean you you you quit and literally the 546 00:25:25,404 --> 00:25:28,124 Speaker 2: New York Times write about you. That's pretty cool. Yeah, 547 00:25:28,724 --> 00:25:31,684 Speaker 2: did you find Bridgewater or they found you or or 548 00:25:31,804 --> 00:25:34,084 Speaker 2: you found them through friends or have this relationship come about? 549 00:25:35,364 --> 00:25:38,524 Speaker 3: Yeah? It was just Galen, like Galen Hall, another really 550 00:25:38,564 --> 00:25:42,124 Speaker 3: successful poker player. Like I didn't know anything about finance. 551 00:25:42,164 --> 00:25:45,404 Speaker 3: I kind of thought of it as like, you know, 552 00:25:45,804 --> 00:25:48,524 Speaker 3: the Wolf of Wall Street kind of situation. You know. 553 00:25:48,804 --> 00:25:52,084 Speaker 3: So Galen was working at Bridgewater and he was like, oh, yeah, 554 00:25:52,124 --> 00:25:53,764 Speaker 3: this place like they'll hire you. They have a really 555 00:25:53,804 --> 00:25:55,684 Speaker 3: good kind of like education program. And so I was 556 00:25:55,724 --> 00:25:58,244 Speaker 3: just thrilled that, you know, I had heard about finance 557 00:25:58,244 --> 00:25:59,964 Speaker 3: and like kind of how it was similar to poker. 558 00:25:59,964 --> 00:26:02,164 Speaker 3: And my mom actually had been an options trader when 559 00:26:02,884 --> 00:26:03,964 Speaker 3: an avid poker player. 560 00:26:04,004 --> 00:26:04,604 Speaker 1: That's amazing. 561 00:26:05,044 --> 00:26:05,884 Speaker 3: What year was that? 562 00:26:06,204 --> 00:26:07,564 Speaker 1: How did that happen? 563 00:26:09,044 --> 00:26:12,564 Speaker 3: Yeah? She played poker, uh like basically to put herself 564 00:26:12,564 --> 00:26:16,444 Speaker 3: through college, which I guess was in like seventy three 565 00:26:16,604 --> 00:26:20,684 Speaker 3: or seventy two, and then was an option trader like 566 00:26:20,684 --> 00:26:25,404 Speaker 3: in the nineties. Yeah, on the American stock. It's pretty crazy. 567 00:26:26,324 --> 00:26:27,364 Speaker 3: The only woman I think. 568 00:26:27,284 --> 00:26:29,364 Speaker 1: I was gonna say there might must not have been 569 00:26:29,364 --> 00:26:29,964 Speaker 1: married many. 570 00:26:29,964 --> 00:26:33,244 Speaker 3: It was basically just her and so so I'd heard 571 00:26:33,284 --> 00:26:34,844 Speaker 3: about it, but I but I didn't know much about it, 572 00:26:34,884 --> 00:26:37,204 Speaker 3: and so Galen was like, yeah, they'll they'll teach you 573 00:26:37,204 --> 00:26:38,764 Speaker 3: and whatever. So I was just told someone was like 574 00:26:38,804 --> 00:26:41,564 Speaker 3: willing to give me a job. But yeah, ultimately it wasn't. 575 00:26:41,604 --> 00:26:43,404 Speaker 3: It wasn't like the right fit. And they're like kind 576 00:26:43,444 --> 00:26:46,084 Speaker 3: of more they do like kind of like long term 577 00:26:46,124 --> 00:26:51,484 Speaker 3: investment strategy stuff, and so it felt more like a 578 00:26:51,484 --> 00:26:52,884 Speaker 3: think tank. Like I would try to get people to 579 00:26:52,884 --> 00:26:54,604 Speaker 3: gamble with me on stuff and they were just like no, 580 00:26:54,804 --> 00:26:57,044 Speaker 3: And I'm like, what, like what you know, don't we 581 00:26:57,084 --> 00:26:59,324 Speaker 3: work at a Like I would finally get people to 582 00:26:59,324 --> 00:27:01,324 Speaker 3: gamble with me, they'd owe me like, you know, seven 583 00:27:01,364 --> 00:27:03,324 Speaker 3: dollars and sixty cents because like that's what they were 584 00:27:03,324 --> 00:27:05,564 Speaker 3: comfortable gambling for. And they were like or like whatever, 585 00:27:05,804 --> 00:27:07,724 Speaker 3: and they're like, okay, can you pay me? And I'm 586 00:27:07,724 --> 00:27:09,604 Speaker 3: like yeah, like let's just flip until it's like one 587 00:27:09,684 --> 00:27:12,804 Speaker 3: hundred or zero and you actually liked this story. Literally, 588 00:27:12,844 --> 00:27:14,444 Speaker 3: I would have debts of like thirteen dollars that I 589 00:27:14,484 --> 00:27:16,084 Speaker 3: would have to pay, and so I'd be like, okay, 590 00:27:16,164 --> 00:27:17,724 Speaker 3: let's just flia, like lets of roll one hundred sid 591 00:27:17,764 --> 00:27:20,044 Speaker 3: to die and you know, I'll take thirteen number or 592 00:27:20,164 --> 00:27:22,244 Speaker 3: you can take thirteen numbers and you know, if you 593 00:27:22,244 --> 00:27:23,524 Speaker 3: get one of them, I'll give you a hundred bucks. 594 00:27:23,524 --> 00:27:26,484 Speaker 3: And they're like no, I'm just like they're like, I 595 00:27:26,484 --> 00:27:29,204 Speaker 3: don't campl like I can't deal with this. So what 596 00:27:29,364 --> 00:27:34,284 Speaker 3: I I went to the bank and I got a 597 00:27:34,284 --> 00:27:37,964 Speaker 3: lot of rolls of pennies and some nickels, and I 598 00:27:38,044 --> 00:27:40,284 Speaker 3: unrolled them all a lot of them, like a hundred 599 00:27:40,404 --> 00:27:42,564 Speaker 3: rolls of pennies and like one hundred rolls of nickels, 600 00:27:42,644 --> 00:27:44,364 Speaker 3: and I put them in a bag under my desk. 601 00:27:44,404 --> 00:27:47,444 Speaker 3: And anytime someone wanted me to pay them a debt 602 00:27:47,804 --> 00:27:50,924 Speaker 3: and a number that wasn't a round number, I used 603 00:27:50,924 --> 00:27:53,084 Speaker 3: to just sort through my bag of pennies and nickels 604 00:27:53,124 --> 00:27:56,284 Speaker 3: and pay the debt that way. 605 00:27:55,204 --> 00:27:57,444 Speaker 1: That is the best. 606 00:27:57,684 --> 00:28:01,924 Speaker 3: Yeah, And when when I left, actually my old coworkers 607 00:28:01,924 --> 00:28:04,484 Speaker 3: met up at some point like a few months later, 608 00:28:04,524 --> 00:28:06,564 Speaker 3: and they were like, oh, we found this bag of 609 00:28:06,564 --> 00:28:09,044 Speaker 3: pennies under your desk? Did you want them? Like? No, no, no, 610 00:28:09,204 --> 00:28:09,764 Speaker 3: it's you. 611 00:28:09,724 --> 00:28:12,204 Speaker 1: Worked with a bunch of nets, Vanessa, is what you're 612 00:28:12,244 --> 00:28:12,644 Speaker 1: trying to. 613 00:28:14,164 --> 00:28:16,484 Speaker 3: I was like, literally, do you guys remember that this? 614 00:28:16,884 --> 00:28:19,244 Speaker 3: But anyway, so it wasn't it wasn't the same kind 615 00:28:19,244 --> 00:28:21,524 Speaker 3: of fit. But luckily that's where I heard about Jane Street, 616 00:28:21,524 --> 00:28:22,644 Speaker 3: which is a much better fit. 617 00:28:22,724 --> 00:28:28,364 Speaker 1: So do you feel like poker has kind of enabled 618 00:28:28,364 --> 00:28:30,524 Speaker 1: you to excel in that kind of environment? Was it 619 00:28:30,564 --> 00:28:33,764 Speaker 1: transferable or were both of these things that you kind 620 00:28:33,764 --> 00:28:36,204 Speaker 1: of carried with you both to poker and now to 621 00:28:36,764 --> 00:28:39,764 Speaker 1: Bridgewater and then and then Jane Street? Like is it 622 00:28:39,804 --> 00:28:42,004 Speaker 1: is it what you're bringing to it or did it? 623 00:28:42,204 --> 00:28:44,604 Speaker 1: Did it impart knowledge that you're now using as well? 624 00:28:45,204 --> 00:28:47,844 Speaker 3: Oh? I mean like of course, Like it's a completely 625 00:28:47,844 --> 00:28:49,644 Speaker 3: different sphere, Like there was a ton to learn, there's 626 00:28:49,684 --> 00:28:51,804 Speaker 3: still a ton to learn, like learning all the time. 627 00:28:51,844 --> 00:28:57,204 Speaker 3: It's it's like such a complicated, complex like world, but poker. 628 00:28:57,364 --> 00:29:00,324 Speaker 3: I mean, I didn't realize just how much it mattered, 629 00:29:00,364 --> 00:29:03,684 Speaker 3: like how much, whether it just poker or just general 630 00:29:03,844 --> 00:29:06,644 Speaker 3: strategic thinking. Like I think the way that poker players 631 00:29:06,644 --> 00:29:10,084 Speaker 3: think is the way that traders think, just thinking about 632 00:29:10,084 --> 00:29:13,004 Speaker 3: things and expected values, but also just like thinking about 633 00:29:13,324 --> 00:29:15,764 Speaker 3: the different players in a game and your motivations, because 634 00:29:15,764 --> 00:29:17,364 Speaker 3: if you're trading, someone else is on the other side 635 00:29:17,364 --> 00:29:21,044 Speaker 3: of the trade, and particularly I trade options and options 636 00:29:21,044 --> 00:29:23,924 Speaker 3: are like really complex things where there's like a lot 637 00:29:23,924 --> 00:29:27,124 Speaker 3: of different kinds of risk and different like kind of 638 00:29:27,524 --> 00:29:30,484 Speaker 3: distributions of returns and whatever, and so you really have 639 00:29:30,524 --> 00:29:33,284 Speaker 3: to think through like the different possible situations, the probabilities 640 00:29:33,284 --> 00:29:37,204 Speaker 3: of them, what's someone's motivation, the whole concept of average selection. 641 00:29:37,364 --> 00:29:39,924 Speaker 3: Who am I trading against? What is their motivation? It 642 00:29:39,964 --> 00:29:42,724 Speaker 3: really does feel like being in a poker game, and 643 00:29:42,724 --> 00:29:44,404 Speaker 3: and there's a reason, like a lot of you know, 644 00:29:44,404 --> 00:29:45,964 Speaker 3: there's a lot of poker players at the firm that 645 00:29:46,004 --> 00:29:48,724 Speaker 3: are anywhere from casual poker players where there's always poker 646 00:29:48,724 --> 00:29:51,884 Speaker 3: games going. We have poker tables in our like main cafeteria, 647 00:29:52,564 --> 00:29:54,484 Speaker 3: and so there's always a poker game after work and 648 00:29:54,524 --> 00:29:57,204 Speaker 3: then you know, even at the World Series, a couple 649 00:29:57,244 --> 00:29:58,764 Speaker 3: of the guys always go out and one of them 650 00:29:58,764 --> 00:30:01,404 Speaker 3: actually I think got like second or third, I don't 651 00:30:01,444 --> 00:30:03,364 Speaker 3: actually remember, and one of the one of the events 652 00:30:03,444 --> 00:30:06,644 Speaker 3: last year. So there's like some serious poker players here 653 00:30:06,644 --> 00:30:09,044 Speaker 3: and it's not you know, it's not a coincidence. Like 654 00:30:09,084 --> 00:30:11,204 Speaker 3: there's huge amount of like crossover skills. 655 00:30:11,244 --> 00:30:14,764 Speaker 2: Do you find it hard to play against coworkers because 656 00:30:14,804 --> 00:30:16,964 Speaker 2: of like the office politics dimension of it? 657 00:30:19,724 --> 00:30:22,604 Speaker 3: Uh no, no, only office politics. 658 00:30:22,324 --> 00:30:23,764 Speaker 1: And I love how you said that. 659 00:30:24,684 --> 00:30:28,644 Speaker 3: Competition. No, no, no, it's like it's actually like amazing 660 00:30:28,684 --> 00:30:30,324 Speaker 3: because I think Jane Street is really good at this. 661 00:30:30,404 --> 00:30:33,644 Speaker 3: If like it's it's really competitive in the sense of 662 00:30:33,684 --> 00:30:36,644 Speaker 3: like everybody comes from a place of like being having 663 00:30:36,684 --> 00:30:39,004 Speaker 3: really competitive background. Like a lot of a lot of 664 00:30:39,044 --> 00:30:41,444 Speaker 3: the people that get hired are people that have a 665 00:30:41,484 --> 00:30:45,324 Speaker 3: history of playing games or math competitions or or whatever. 666 00:30:45,364 --> 00:30:47,644 Speaker 3: It is, like you know a lot of people with 667 00:30:47,724 --> 00:30:52,164 Speaker 3: like really competitive personalities. But Jane Street is a place 668 00:30:52,244 --> 00:30:54,724 Speaker 3: that is very collaborative, like out of all of the 669 00:30:54,764 --> 00:31:00,084 Speaker 3: different you know, training firms or whatever, like just for 670 00:31:00,164 --> 00:31:01,884 Speaker 3: a lot of reasons, like it's just like a very 671 00:31:01,924 --> 00:31:04,604 Speaker 3: collaborative like congenial place. So it's sort of like a 672 00:31:04,644 --> 00:31:07,324 Speaker 3: great mix where we're like super competitive with each other 673 00:31:07,324 --> 00:31:09,244 Speaker 3: at the poker table, but just in like a fun 674 00:31:09,764 --> 00:31:13,564 Speaker 3: you know, a place where people just really appreciate when 675 00:31:13,564 --> 00:31:16,644 Speaker 3: someone like outplays someone else and just like oh yeah, props, 676 00:31:16,644 --> 00:31:18,244 Speaker 3: like that was awesome. Like everyone just wants to outplay 677 00:31:18,244 --> 00:31:21,204 Speaker 3: each other, you know, and and play really well, and 678 00:31:21,244 --> 00:31:23,524 Speaker 3: like that's that's the joy of it is is just 679 00:31:23,564 --> 00:31:25,564 Speaker 3: like finding the best play and figuring it out, you know. 680 00:31:29,244 --> 00:31:31,164 Speaker 2: And we'll be right back after this break. 681 00:31:44,124 --> 00:31:46,644 Speaker 1: Is that a gp I award that I spy over 682 00:31:46,724 --> 00:31:47,804 Speaker 1: your shoulders? 683 00:31:48,004 --> 00:31:50,484 Speaker 3: Pokers? It's a bookend. It's a bookend. 684 00:31:50,604 --> 00:31:53,124 Speaker 1: Yeah, but it is a GPI. It as a book 685 00:31:53,164 --> 00:31:56,124 Speaker 1: and you're using it. But but don't don't skirt the question. 686 00:31:56,164 --> 00:31:57,964 Speaker 2: You don't know about prize. It's a bookend. 687 00:31:57,924 --> 00:32:02,124 Speaker 3: It's someone important. I guess it is. Yeah, Actually, I 688 00:32:02,244 --> 00:32:04,284 Speaker 3: just know you'll like this too. I just finally cleaned 689 00:32:04,284 --> 00:32:07,644 Speaker 3: out my garage after four years. Uh. We am renovating 690 00:32:07,684 --> 00:32:10,804 Speaker 3: the basement. And we moved here four years ago and 691 00:32:10,884 --> 00:32:13,604 Speaker 3: in Montclair, New Jersey, and we realized that I hadn't 692 00:32:13,604 --> 00:32:19,084 Speaker 3: really unpacked. So I finally found all of my old trophies. 693 00:32:19,244 --> 00:32:22,804 Speaker 3: This is now sitting in my office. It's my old 694 00:32:23,124 --> 00:32:26,564 Speaker 3: oh bartous poker turn. This is the best biggest tournament 695 00:32:26,564 --> 00:32:28,724 Speaker 3: I ever won. It's covered in hay. 696 00:32:29,524 --> 00:32:30,764 Speaker 1: This is okay, you can. 697 00:32:30,684 --> 00:32:32,364 Speaker 3: Find some hey here you go. There's like a whole 698 00:32:32,364 --> 00:32:34,644 Speaker 3: bunch of hay everywhere. I don't know if you can see. Yeah, 699 00:32:34,684 --> 00:32:37,164 Speaker 3: because my wife decided that it was a good idea 700 00:32:37,244 --> 00:32:40,244 Speaker 3: to purchase lots of different bales of hay and keep 701 00:32:40,284 --> 00:32:42,484 Speaker 3: them also in our garage. So now all of because 702 00:32:42,564 --> 00:32:44,404 Speaker 3: I don't know, you have to decorate for fall. I 703 00:32:44,444 --> 00:32:46,604 Speaker 3: don't know, there's like a lapse. She's very into decorating, 704 00:32:46,604 --> 00:32:50,244 Speaker 3: and there's apparently a lapse between Halloween and Christmas that 705 00:32:50,324 --> 00:32:52,844 Speaker 3: involves lots of barrels of hay. But anyway, all of 706 00:32:52,924 --> 00:32:56,564 Speaker 3: my old trophies are now covered in hay and have 707 00:32:56,644 --> 00:32:58,164 Speaker 3: like lots of cracks. So I got to figure out 708 00:32:58,204 --> 00:33:00,284 Speaker 3: what to do with them, maybe like some kind of 709 00:33:00,284 --> 00:33:02,084 Speaker 3: we My kids were trying to use them as weapons. 710 00:33:02,564 --> 00:33:05,444 Speaker 1: So Partush was the biggest tournament you ever won, Yeah, 711 00:33:05,484 --> 00:33:08,764 Speaker 1: and the biggest trophy. It's amazing, Vanessa, were you at 712 00:33:08,804 --> 00:33:11,444 Speaker 1: the par two with the cheating scandal or was that 713 00:33:11,524 --> 00:33:12,124 Speaker 1: not your year? 714 00:33:12,164 --> 00:33:14,164 Speaker 3: Oh? Yeah, that was that was my year. Yeah, that's 715 00:33:14,204 --> 00:33:15,804 Speaker 3: a good, great memory that you remember that. 716 00:33:15,884 --> 00:33:18,164 Speaker 1: Well, I'm I'm writing a book about cheating right now, 717 00:33:18,244 --> 00:33:22,164 Speaker 1: so oh awesome. So for people who aren't familiar since 718 00:33:22,244 --> 00:33:24,604 Speaker 1: you were there, do you this is a great story 719 00:33:25,404 --> 00:33:29,484 Speaker 1: and involved journalism or faux journalism and a lot of things. So, Nest, 720 00:33:29,484 --> 00:33:30,844 Speaker 1: do you want to tell us a little bit about 721 00:33:30,844 --> 00:33:33,284 Speaker 1: your part tuwish victory and this crazy moment? 722 00:33:34,484 --> 00:33:36,884 Speaker 3: Yeah? So well, from my perspective, I was a triplayer 723 00:33:36,924 --> 00:33:38,484 Speaker 3: going into the final table and it was the delayed 724 00:33:38,524 --> 00:33:41,524 Speaker 3: final table, which was crazy. So we finished the tournament 725 00:33:41,604 --> 00:33:44,844 Speaker 3: in September and played down to the final table and 726 00:33:44,924 --> 00:33:47,484 Speaker 3: then played the final table in November, so we had 727 00:33:47,524 --> 00:33:49,044 Speaker 3: like two months to stew on it. So I'm having 728 00:33:49,044 --> 00:33:51,964 Speaker 3: like literal nightmares that I'm like chip leader my equity. 729 00:33:52,044 --> 00:33:53,724 Speaker 3: It was the biggest turnam I ever played. First prize 730 00:33:53,764 --> 00:33:57,324 Speaker 3: was almost two million, you know, and and I was 731 00:33:57,324 --> 00:33:59,164 Speaker 3: having nightmares that I would like bust out ninth. So 732 00:33:59,204 --> 00:34:01,684 Speaker 3: when I get there and they're like, oh, congratulations, everyone's 733 00:34:01,684 --> 00:34:03,644 Speaker 3: got at least eighth, I was like, okay, cool, I'm 734 00:34:03,644 --> 00:34:06,484 Speaker 3: going to win this now, you know, like basically all 735 00:34:06,524 --> 00:34:08,604 Speaker 3: of my nightmares were no more. But but yeah, so 736 00:34:08,644 --> 00:34:10,404 Speaker 3: when I got there, there like yeah, you're all guaranteed 737 00:34:10,444 --> 00:34:12,444 Speaker 3: eighth for like what they're like, Oh yeah. One of 738 00:34:12,484 --> 00:34:14,764 Speaker 3: the guys was just like cheating the whole time, throughout 739 00:34:14,764 --> 00:34:17,564 Speaker 3: the whole tournament and also on the whole poker tour. Yeah, 740 00:34:17,604 --> 00:34:20,084 Speaker 3: he had these like like journalists I guess with this 741 00:34:20,164 --> 00:34:22,644 Speaker 3: like fake website that had nothing on it. I think 742 00:34:22,644 --> 00:34:24,804 Speaker 3: it was like I don't remember the name of the site, 743 00:34:25,004 --> 00:34:27,164 Speaker 3: but he would just have like fake journalists stand behind 744 00:34:27,164 --> 00:34:29,964 Speaker 3: people and like fake report and then just like give 745 00:34:30,044 --> 00:34:33,084 Speaker 3: signs to this guy Ali what was his name. 746 00:34:33,844 --> 00:34:36,724 Speaker 1: His name was Ali Tecantum. 747 00:34:36,204 --> 00:34:38,164 Speaker 3: Guk tech and Togak. There you go. 748 00:34:38,324 --> 00:34:40,164 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's pretty good fucking cheat. 749 00:34:40,404 --> 00:34:42,444 Speaker 3: Yeah. So he would just give him signals on like 750 00:34:42,484 --> 00:34:43,884 Speaker 3: what they had, and he was just like looking over 751 00:34:43,884 --> 00:34:46,564 Speaker 3: at peaper soldiers. It was so old school. There's no devices, 752 00:34:46,644 --> 00:34:49,564 Speaker 3: there's no like, you know, poker's gotten a lot more sophisticated, 753 00:34:49,604 --> 00:34:52,204 Speaker 3: like we've gotten poker cheating solvers now. I feel like, 754 00:34:52,244 --> 00:34:54,124 Speaker 3: you know that are just uh, they're like that's not 755 00:34:54,164 --> 00:34:56,084 Speaker 3: the gto way to cheat, Like the GTO way to 756 00:34:56,164 --> 00:34:58,524 Speaker 3: cheat with this strategy would have at least involved having 757 00:34:58,604 --> 00:35:02,404 Speaker 3: legitimate poker blog that had some words on it. But 758 00:35:02,404 --> 00:35:04,524 Speaker 3: but yeah, so he was finally discovered. 759 00:35:04,564 --> 00:35:06,804 Speaker 2: So you can't trust you can't trust journalists. See. 760 00:35:07,124 --> 00:35:08,964 Speaker 1: Well it was one of those things where when I 761 00:35:09,004 --> 00:35:12,084 Speaker 1: heard that story, I was like, oh wow, like you 762 00:35:12,124 --> 00:35:15,724 Speaker 1: really need to learn how to protect your cards, Like, yeah, 763 00:35:15,764 --> 00:35:18,404 Speaker 1: just you know, it's crazy that cheating. I mean, cheating 764 00:35:18,444 --> 00:35:21,164 Speaker 1: has always been a part of whenever there's money. Even 765 00:35:21,164 --> 00:35:24,404 Speaker 1: when there's no money, there's there's cheating. People cheat on 766 00:35:24,604 --> 00:35:27,284 Speaker 1: trivia nights. But yeah, I just remember that he had 767 00:35:27,284 --> 00:35:29,564 Speaker 1: the fake journalists who would look at people's cards and 768 00:35:30,044 --> 00:35:34,204 Speaker 1: just hand signs, completely old school, and you think about. 769 00:35:34,004 --> 00:35:36,124 Speaker 2: All this, like the press hats and stuff like that. 770 00:35:36,284 --> 00:35:38,324 Speaker 1: Probably they had, yeah, all of these things. 771 00:35:38,724 --> 00:35:40,284 Speaker 3: It went on for like a year and a half 772 00:35:40,444 --> 00:35:42,644 Speaker 3: something crazy like it was. But like the number of 773 00:35:42,684 --> 00:35:44,684 Speaker 3: cheating scales that you've read about and been like, wow, 774 00:35:44,684 --> 00:35:47,084 Speaker 3: if you were just a little less greedy, you could 775 00:35:47,084 --> 00:35:48,204 Speaker 3: have gotten away with this forever. 776 00:35:48,444 --> 00:35:50,604 Speaker 1: Absolutely no, I mean I think that's the case with 777 00:35:50,684 --> 00:35:52,924 Speaker 1: most of them, whether or not it's poker, that if 778 00:35:52,924 --> 00:35:55,724 Speaker 1: you just cheated a little bit smarter and you know, 779 00:35:55,844 --> 00:35:59,204 Speaker 1: got out a little bit faster, we would not know 780 00:35:59,244 --> 00:36:01,604 Speaker 1: about it. And some of the biggest cheating stories in 781 00:36:01,684 --> 00:36:03,644 Speaker 1: poker they did get out, and so. 782 00:36:04,244 --> 00:36:06,364 Speaker 3: Oh my god, you have to get a nice user for. 783 00:36:06,324 --> 00:36:11,124 Speaker 1: Your people's reputation that is more or less intact. 784 00:36:11,924 --> 00:36:14,044 Speaker 3: Really, are you gonna uncover some of this in your book? 785 00:36:15,644 --> 00:36:18,124 Speaker 1: I will have to have some alleged lies in there. 786 00:36:18,684 --> 00:36:19,004 Speaker 3: I will. 787 00:36:19,044 --> 00:36:20,724 Speaker 1: I will tell you that one of the people is 788 00:36:20,724 --> 00:36:23,564 Speaker 1: no longer alive, so you could probably put two and 789 00:36:23,604 --> 00:36:24,084 Speaker 1: two together. 790 00:36:25,204 --> 00:36:26,924 Speaker 3: But yeah, that's my favorite guy. 791 00:36:27,084 --> 00:36:29,564 Speaker 2: Mahi have been from the Southern United States. 792 00:36:29,884 --> 00:36:38,484 Speaker 1: Yeah, Nate's accents, Nate's accent. So are you now, you know, 793 00:36:38,564 --> 00:36:42,404 Speaker 1: now that you're kind of settled down, do you how 794 00:36:42,444 --> 00:36:45,644 Speaker 1: do you feel about poker? I'm actually just curious. You know, 795 00:36:45,684 --> 00:36:47,364 Speaker 1: we obviously know it's a big part of your life 796 00:36:47,404 --> 00:36:51,284 Speaker 1: because you have your GPI award in your zoom background 797 00:36:51,484 --> 00:36:55,364 Speaker 1: and you've got your No you're not, You've got your partner. 798 00:36:55,444 --> 00:36:57,524 Speaker 2: I mean, I've got that World Series Poker carpeting. 799 00:36:57,564 --> 00:37:01,644 Speaker 1: I think, where are your bracelets? Vanessa? But I mean 800 00:37:01,724 --> 00:37:05,164 Speaker 1: it is, it is, Actually, it is remarkable that and 801 00:37:05,364 --> 00:37:07,524 Speaker 1: you know, there's a numbers game. A lot of things 802 00:37:07,524 --> 00:37:09,604 Speaker 1: have changed in the game since you've left, but a 803 00:37:09,604 --> 00:37:13,204 Speaker 1: lot of things haven't. This year was a record low 804 00:37:13,324 --> 00:37:17,124 Speaker 1: number of women in the WSP main event for like, 805 00:37:17,444 --> 00:37:19,444 Speaker 1: you know, it just it went, it went down. 806 00:37:19,404 --> 00:37:21,644 Speaker 3: And realize that it was. It's just like low enough 807 00:37:21,644 --> 00:37:22,084 Speaker 3: that it's. 808 00:37:21,964 --> 00:37:25,924 Speaker 1: Just yeah, it was just yeah exactly in terms of 809 00:37:25,924 --> 00:37:28,004 Speaker 1: like the last you know, when people have been tracking this, 810 00:37:28,764 --> 00:37:32,564 Speaker 1: there's still So when I won my first bracelet this year, 811 00:37:33,364 --> 00:37:34,244 Speaker 1: I was, I think. 812 00:37:34,084 --> 00:37:35,964 Speaker 3: Woman, I don't know, you want to bracelet what? 813 00:37:36,844 --> 00:37:38,964 Speaker 1: So I was woman number like twenty nine. I think 814 00:37:38,964 --> 00:37:41,204 Speaker 1: it was. I don't remember. It was under thirty women 815 00:37:41,244 --> 00:37:43,324 Speaker 1: who've won open bracelet events since the beginning? 816 00:37:43,364 --> 00:37:46,084 Speaker 3: What did you win? I really don't follow poker all, 817 00:37:46,164 --> 00:37:48,324 Speaker 3: but congratulations, thank you. 818 00:37:48,444 --> 00:37:51,044 Speaker 1: It was that was eighty eight crazy eights. 819 00:37:51,124 --> 00:37:51,724 Speaker 3: Oh my god. 820 00:37:52,844 --> 00:37:54,764 Speaker 1: So that that was fun. But it was a you know, 821 00:37:55,084 --> 00:37:57,884 Speaker 1: women's are still not really winning open events, like so 822 00:37:58,084 --> 00:37:59,844 Speaker 1: if you don't count the women's events, then you don't 823 00:37:59,844 --> 00:38:00,204 Speaker 1: count seen. 824 00:38:00,404 --> 00:38:00,564 Speaker 3: Yeah. 825 00:38:00,604 --> 00:38:02,924 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's still under thirty. Like I said, I 826 00:38:02,924 --> 00:38:03,924 Speaker 1: think I was number twenty nine. 827 00:38:03,924 --> 00:38:05,964 Speaker 3: I don't. Actually I feel embarrassed to be in the 828 00:38:05,964 --> 00:38:07,484 Speaker 3: presence of two bracelet winners. 829 00:38:07,524 --> 00:38:10,204 Speaker 2: I am, I fucking guess second a couple of years ago. 830 00:38:10,324 --> 00:38:12,164 Speaker 2: I mean, we're gonna grind this year, that we're gonna 831 00:38:12,164 --> 00:38:13,724 Speaker 2: grind this year. 832 00:38:14,004 --> 00:38:16,964 Speaker 1: Yeah, So I'm curious kind of how you know, given 833 00:38:17,044 --> 00:38:19,644 Speaker 1: your legacy and that you're you're still I mean, if 834 00:38:19,644 --> 00:38:22,284 Speaker 1: I were to say, like, who is the person I 835 00:38:22,324 --> 00:38:24,724 Speaker 1: most look up to in the game, it would be you, honestly, 836 00:38:25,164 --> 00:38:28,444 Speaker 1: because because of the of what you've accomplished, and it 837 00:38:28,484 --> 00:38:30,404 Speaker 1: does it does you know, it means a lot like 838 00:38:30,444 --> 00:38:32,324 Speaker 1: where you came from, and you know kind of what 839 00:38:32,364 --> 00:38:35,644 Speaker 1: you've done. And I don't know who's number two, right, 840 00:38:35,684 --> 00:38:37,844 Speaker 1: Like you're you're kind of in a category. 841 00:38:37,444 --> 00:38:37,964 Speaker 3: Of your own. 842 00:38:38,244 --> 00:38:40,004 Speaker 1: So how do you you know, how do you think 843 00:38:40,044 --> 00:38:43,524 Speaker 1: about your your legacy? You're still very much alive and 844 00:38:43,564 --> 00:38:45,924 Speaker 1: still playing, but like how you know, how is that 845 00:38:45,964 --> 00:38:47,804 Speaker 1: a part of your life other than you know, being 846 00:38:47,804 --> 00:38:49,124 Speaker 1: a part of your Zoom background. 847 00:38:49,524 --> 00:38:54,284 Speaker 3: Oh man, I don't know. It's weird. I was just 848 00:38:54,404 --> 00:38:57,124 Speaker 3: never wanted to think that much about that kind of stuff, Like, 849 00:38:58,404 --> 00:39:00,004 Speaker 3: you know, I don't know, it just wasn't me, Like 850 00:39:00,044 --> 00:39:03,244 Speaker 3: I didn't like all that that the attention about it 851 00:39:03,324 --> 00:39:06,004 Speaker 3: and and the pomp and circumstance of it and all. 852 00:39:06,284 --> 00:39:08,244 Speaker 3: I don't know that that's you know, look, Kristian Bicknell 853 00:39:08,284 --> 00:39:11,204 Speaker 3: is probably gonna like win a bunch more money like 854 00:39:11,244 --> 00:39:15,284 Speaker 3: this year, She's gonna overtake that spot, and then I'll 855 00:39:15,364 --> 00:39:18,564 Speaker 3: just be some random husband. You know. I don't think 856 00:39:18,684 --> 00:39:19,284 Speaker 3: that'll be good. 857 00:39:19,404 --> 00:39:22,324 Speaker 1: No, you'll be the You'll be the deuce five into 858 00:39:22,364 --> 00:39:25,804 Speaker 1: ass never never never, the random husband. You know, the 859 00:39:26,484 --> 00:39:26,884 Speaker 1: go ahead. 860 00:39:26,964 --> 00:39:28,964 Speaker 3: Yeah. Oh, I was just gonna say, I do feel 861 00:39:29,004 --> 00:39:30,644 Speaker 3: like I'm in a spot where, like for a few years, 862 00:39:30,644 --> 00:39:32,284 Speaker 3: I felt like I want nothing to do with this game, 863 00:39:32,284 --> 00:39:34,684 Speaker 3: and I find myself like coming around like really remembering 864 00:39:34,684 --> 00:39:36,644 Speaker 3: why I love the game. Like, you know, I really 865 00:39:36,644 --> 00:39:39,244 Speaker 3: had like a love hate relationship followed by like a 866 00:39:39,284 --> 00:39:41,564 Speaker 3: hate hate relationship with it towards the end, Like you know, 867 00:39:41,644 --> 00:39:43,804 Speaker 3: we would hang out and you'd be like my friends 868 00:39:43,804 --> 00:39:45,284 Speaker 3: met the end of my burger who my friends be like, 869 00:39:45,324 --> 00:39:46,644 Speaker 3: so we're gonna go play the tournament. I'm like, no, 870 00:39:46,764 --> 00:39:48,484 Speaker 3: I see, I'll see it later. Let me know any 871 00:39:48,524 --> 00:39:51,964 Speaker 3: bus you know. But but now I feel like whenever 872 00:39:52,004 --> 00:39:54,164 Speaker 3: I'm playing, I'm having fun again, and I don't feel 873 00:39:54,844 --> 00:39:58,004 Speaker 3: like burdened by all of the different stuff that came 874 00:39:58,084 --> 00:40:01,404 Speaker 3: that came with the I don't know, so so I 875 00:40:01,444 --> 00:40:02,284 Speaker 3: enjoy playing Again. 876 00:40:02,164 --> 00:40:05,204 Speaker 2: If you're at a random dinner party, you don't know, 877 00:40:05,244 --> 00:40:08,524 Speaker 2: somebody is super well, right, was it more awkward to 878 00:40:08,564 --> 00:40:11,044 Speaker 2: introduce yourself as a potker player or is a hedge fund. 879 00:40:12,644 --> 00:40:15,724 Speaker 3: Rhenna? Actually, my wife has this funny joke because I 880 00:40:15,804 --> 00:40:18,364 Speaker 3: used to go around, you know, and people would talk 881 00:40:18,364 --> 00:40:19,484 Speaker 3: about it all the time, and I was used to 882 00:40:19,524 --> 00:40:21,204 Speaker 3: getting all this attention and stuff, so I would just 883 00:40:21,244 --> 00:40:24,164 Speaker 3: be like, oh, like, you know whatever, I play poker, 884 00:40:24,284 --> 00:40:25,604 Speaker 3: you know, and I would try to try to change 885 00:40:25,644 --> 00:40:28,124 Speaker 3: the subject. And now I like go out to people 886 00:40:28,164 --> 00:40:29,404 Speaker 3: and I'm like, they're like, what do you do? And 887 00:40:29,444 --> 00:40:32,404 Speaker 3: I'm like, I'm I'm a trader, like in finance, and 888 00:40:32,524 --> 00:40:33,844 Speaker 3: they just like look around. But I used to be 889 00:40:33,884 --> 00:40:36,604 Speaker 3: a poker player, like so bored by the time I 890 00:40:36,604 --> 00:40:38,964 Speaker 3: finish the sentence, and I'm like, no, no, no, I swear 891 00:40:39,004 --> 00:40:43,124 Speaker 3: to god, I'm a little more interesting. So the grass 892 00:40:43,164 --> 00:40:45,684 Speaker 3: is always greener, I guess. So, So what's next for you? 893 00:40:45,804 --> 00:40:49,444 Speaker 3: What does the future hold for Vanessa? I don't know 894 00:40:49,484 --> 00:40:52,044 Speaker 3: what is I mean, who knows? Really? I mean, I 895 00:40:52,084 --> 00:40:54,164 Speaker 3: love my job, so hopefully I'll do that for a 896 00:40:54,164 --> 00:40:59,084 Speaker 3: little while At least and kind of play it by year. Honestly, 897 00:40:59,204 --> 00:41:04,324 Speaker 3: I don't see myself like reinventing myself again. But but 898 00:41:04,404 --> 00:41:08,364 Speaker 3: I think some combination of trading poker hobbies, spend time 899 00:41:08,364 --> 00:41:10,804 Speaker 3: with the kids, Like, you know, my kids are really 900 00:41:10,804 --> 00:41:13,124 Speaker 3: fun age. They're almost five and almost. 901 00:41:13,204 --> 00:41:14,884 Speaker 1: Time time to start them playing poker. 902 00:41:15,244 --> 00:41:18,484 Speaker 3: Yeah, I know, know it really is. My older one, 903 00:41:18,524 --> 00:41:21,804 Speaker 3: Felix's friend is really into poker, and so I keep 904 00:41:21,804 --> 00:41:23,444 Speaker 3: trying to be like, let's go over to Clark's house 905 00:41:23,444 --> 00:41:27,884 Speaker 3: and like, let's go play poker. But yeah, so some 906 00:41:27,964 --> 00:41:31,444 Speaker 3: combination of that stuff. Like I think probably my guess 907 00:41:31,524 --> 00:41:34,804 Speaker 3: is like when I'm retired or something and maybe who knows, 908 00:41:34,844 --> 00:41:38,044 Speaker 3: ten years or ten fifteen years, like just poker much 909 00:41:38,084 --> 00:41:40,164 Speaker 3: more recreationally. You know, I'll have to get you guys 910 00:41:40,164 --> 00:41:41,964 Speaker 3: to like start a regular home game. 911 00:41:42,684 --> 00:41:46,044 Speaker 1: That will be fun. Well, We'll make the hardest hardest 912 00:41:46,044 --> 00:41:51,764 Speaker 1: home game in ther poker. It will be fun. Well, Vanessa, 913 00:41:51,844 --> 00:41:55,124 Speaker 1: this has been such an absolute pleasure. I am so 914 00:41:55,284 --> 00:41:57,924 Speaker 1: glad that Eric introduced us and that I got to 915 00:41:57,964 --> 00:42:01,364 Speaker 1: meet you, and I don't know, you know, I think 916 00:42:01,524 --> 00:42:03,684 Speaker 1: you have made my life richer and I hope that 917 00:42:03,724 --> 00:42:06,364 Speaker 1: all of our listeners will have learned something from listening 918 00:42:06,444 --> 00:42:07,044 Speaker 1: to you today. 919 00:42:07,164 --> 00:42:09,524 Speaker 2: Thank you well, Thank you guys so much for so 920 00:42:09,564 --> 00:42:16,804 Speaker 2: much that we appreciate you spending this time with us. 921 00:42:17,364 --> 00:42:19,524 Speaker 1: Let us know what you think of the show. Reach 922 00:42:19,604 --> 00:42:23,084 Speaker 1: out to us at Risky Business at pushkin dot fm. 923 00:42:23,284 --> 00:42:25,764 Speaker 1: And by the way, if you're a Pushkin Plus subscriber, 924 00:42:25,924 --> 00:42:28,764 Speaker 1: we have some bonus content for you. We'll be answering 925 00:42:28,804 --> 00:42:31,804 Speaker 1: a listener question each week that's coming up right after 926 00:42:31,804 --> 00:42:32,364 Speaker 1: the credits. 927 00:42:32,844 --> 00:42:36,124 Speaker 2: And if you're not subscribing yet, consider signing up for 928 00:42:36,284 --> 00:42:38,444 Speaker 2: just six ninety nine a month. What a nice price 929 00:42:38,804 --> 00:42:41,604 Speaker 2: you get access to all that premium content and ad 930 00:42:41,644 --> 00:42:44,244 Speaker 2: for listening across Pushkin's entire network of shows. 931 00:42:44,804 --> 00:42:47,844 Speaker 1: Risky Business is hosted by me Maria Kannakova. 932 00:42:47,484 --> 00:42:49,844 Speaker 2: And by me Nate Silver. The show is a co 933 00:42:49,884 --> 00:42:54,004 Speaker 2: production of Pushkin Industries and iHeartMedia. This episode was produced 934 00:42:54,004 --> 00:42:57,844 Speaker 2: by Isabelle Carter. Our associate producer is Sonia Gerwit. Sally 935 00:42:57,924 --> 00:43:00,924 Speaker 2: helm is our editor, and our executive producer is Jacob Goldstein. 936 00:43:01,444 --> 00:43:02,644 Speaker 2: Mixing by Sarah Bruger. 937 00:43:03,204 --> 00:43:05,604 Speaker 1: If you like this show, please rate and review us 938 00:43:05,604 --> 00:43:07,964 Speaker 1: so other people can find us too. Thanks so much 939 00:43:08,004 --> 00:43:08,524 Speaker 1: for tuning in 940 00:43:10,524 --> 00:43:13,244 Speaker 3: Acting from Boy Klaa