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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 1: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 2: And I weigh in, using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 3: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried bones.

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Speaker 3: Hi, Kate, how are you?

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Speaker 1: I'm well, everybody wants to know about the fish. What's

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Speaker 1: going on with your fish? What's the very latest with

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Speaker 1: the fish. When I last checked in with you, something

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Speaker 1: horrific happened and it wiped out some of the residents

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Speaker 1: of your tank. Is that still the case?

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Speaker 2: Well, obviously, yeah, I went through that whole tragic process.

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Speaker 2: But the tank is stable good. You know, the fish

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Speaker 2: that are remaining have stayed alive. I think I've lost

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Speaker 2: one fish since then. But I'm getting to a point

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Speaker 2: where I think I may be trying to repopulate, and

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Speaker 2: I'll go slow, you know, I just want to, you know,

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Speaker 2: pick and choose my fish very carefully, make sure they're compatible,

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Speaker 2: and maybe put one in there that and see how

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Speaker 2: it responds inside the tank and then just kind of

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Speaker 2: slowly build it up from there.

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Speaker 1: Oh that sounds like a good plan. When we talk

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Speaker 1: about marine life, I think about my time in San Francisco,

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Speaker 1: which I just loved. I lived there for two or

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Speaker 1: three years, and I used to go the aquarium, I mean,

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Speaker 1: just sit by the water. And our next story is

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Speaker 1: set in San Francisco. So get ready because we're going

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Speaker 1: to be in a big city.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Well, you know I have some familiarity to San

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Speaker 2: Francisco a little bit.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, a little tiny bit. Okay, let's set the scene. Okay, Paul,

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Speaker 1: we are in eighteen ninety five, and normally when I

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Speaker 1: say that, I say New York Woo Gilded Age. But

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Speaker 1: we are actually in eighteen ninety five San Francisco, which

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Speaker 1: I don't know a ton about about that time period

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Speaker 1: in San Francisco. But it's going to be interesting because

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Speaker 1: I feel like we're in the countryside a lot, and

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Speaker 1: this is a big city, and we have two people

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Speaker 1: going missing with a lot of connections. So when you're

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Speaker 1: investigating something that happens in a big city versus a

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Speaker 1: small town, are we talking about? I mean, it's got

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Speaker 1: to be apples to oranges here. It has to be

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Speaker 1: two totally different sets of complications between figuring out what

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Speaker 1: happened to some in a big city who has a

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Speaker 1: lot of exposure, but then figuring out what happened to

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Speaker 1: someone in a small town where there's rumors everywhere, where

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Speaker 1: everybody feels like they know the answer. It seems like

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Speaker 1: two distinct problems.

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, being in the large cities, there's a

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Speaker 2: level of anonymity that really can complicate the investigation. However,

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Speaker 2: in a larger population. And I kind of dealt with

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Speaker 2: this to an extent with the Golden State Killer, because

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Speaker 2: he had attacks in some of the larger cities like

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Speaker 2: Sacramento and Stockton, as well as in some of the

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Speaker 2: smaller cities. And when I was working some leads in Stockton,

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Speaker 2: it's just that every rock I turned over there was

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Speaker 2: a bad guy, right, It's just that there's so many

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Speaker 2: avenues to pursue. So I decided to shift my gears

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Speaker 2: and take a look at Davis, California, which is a

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Speaker 2: much smaller town, especially back in the nineteen seventies, and

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Speaker 2: I called it my smaller haystack. I'm still looking for

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Speaker 2: the needle in the haystack, but I figured I had

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Speaker 2: few or hay that I had to sort through in

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Speaker 2: order to be able to find the guy I was

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Speaker 2: looking for. But I think in a big city you have,

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Speaker 2: you know, groups just because you like neighborhoods. But even

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Speaker 2: within a neighborhood, you can have social circles, and potentially

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Speaker 2: those social circles of people are like a small town.

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Speaker 2: They talk amongst themselves. So as an investigator, if you

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Speaker 2: can find the right social circle for the crime you're investigating,

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Speaker 2: you might be able to get the right lead.

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Speaker 1: Well, you just hit the nail on the head with

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Speaker 1: this story. We are in a big city. We're in

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Speaker 1: San Francisco with lots and lots and lots of people,

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Speaker 1: but we're going to tighten it on a social circle

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Speaker 1: here that centers around one particular place. So there's a

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Speaker 1: little bit of setup that I have to do. We

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Speaker 1: are concerned about a twenty one year old woman named

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Speaker 1: Blanche Lamont, and this will be for those of you

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Speaker 1: who are big fans of historical truths, crime and my goodness,

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Speaker 1: I hope all of you are at this point, but

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Speaker 1: if you're not, we're hoping to suck you in. This

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Speaker 1: is actually a well known story. I'm not going to

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Speaker 1: tell you the moniker that goes with this story because

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Speaker 1: then I think some of you will recognize it. But

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Speaker 1: this will become a kind of a well known story.

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Speaker 1: There's a woman named Blanche Lamont, twenty one years old.

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Speaker 1: She has only been in San Francisco for about six months.

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Speaker 1: She comes from Montana, and she is really passionate about

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Speaker 1: music and she wants to be a teacher. So she

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Speaker 1: enrolled in a local high school, Lowell High School, which

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Speaker 1: offered advanced classes for somebody who's a little bit older.

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Speaker 1: So she wanted to take music classes. She had a

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Speaker 1: couple of different music teachers. She was really active in

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Speaker 1: a local Baptist church, Emmanuel Baptist Church. She played the violin.

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Speaker 1: She was in the church orchestra. For a young woman

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Speaker 1: who's only been in San Francisco for about six months,

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Speaker 1: she's built quite a life. You know. People have found

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Speaker 1: her to be outgoing and attractive. She's living with an aunt.

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Speaker 1: She's got a pretty active social life, so popular, knows

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Speaker 1: a lot of people, particularly at the church. She goes

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Speaker 1: missing on Wednesday, April third, eighteen ninety five. And let

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Speaker 1: me just tell you the circumstances first, and then I'll

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Speaker 1: ask you several questions. So the day she goes missing,

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Speaker 1: she had gone to this high school for the advanced classes,

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Speaker 1: and then she went to an academic lecture at a

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Speaker 1: place called the Normal School, which is on Powell Street

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Speaker 1: in San Francisco. And after the lecture, about three point fifteen,

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Speaker 1: she gets on a street car like the old school

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Speaker 1: street cars that most people know, and that's it. She

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Speaker 1: vanishes and nobody sees her again. We will have witnesses

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Speaker 1: later on who will talk about who she's seen with,

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Speaker 1: who she's not seen with. But that is what police,

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Speaker 1: when they are alerted to this, are left with a

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Speaker 1: woman who knows a lot of people in a very

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Speaker 1: big city, gets on a streetcar with people she doesn't know,

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Speaker 1: packed in middle of the day, and she is gone.

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Speaker 1: And that has to be a family's worst nightmare because

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Speaker 1: people didn't even know where she was heading to. How

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Speaker 1: do we even narrow that down?

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Speaker 2: You know, my first thought is you think she's getting

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Speaker 2: onto this crowded street car. Now she's not being attacked

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Speaker 2: on the streetcar. You know, the street car is going

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Speaker 2: to go from A to B. If the offender is

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Speaker 2: on the streetcar with her, he's likely going to be

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Speaker 2: getting off the car at the stop she gets off at.

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Speaker 2: So now you've got sort of a secondary aspect. So

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Speaker 2: you've got the primary the streetcar, which is the last

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Speaker 2: where she's seen, and then you have a group of

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Speaker 2: individuals that are riding the car with her.

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Speaker 3: So those are our witnesses.

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Speaker 2: So hopefully authorities would be able to track down which

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Speaker 2: streetcar and what stops it would go to, you know,

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Speaker 2: so they can get a sense for her direction.

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Speaker 3: What she liked heading home?

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Speaker 2: Did her aunt know you know, well, she had plans

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Speaker 2: to go somewhere else, you know, maybe she was going

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Speaker 2: to go, let's say, just hypothetically, to go see an

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Speaker 2: orchestra that night, right, Okay, So now what stop would

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Speaker 2: she get off to go to that event that she

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Speaker 2: was planning on going to. So this is where again

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Speaker 2: victimology is huge. What was she planning on doing tonight?

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Speaker 2: What are her interests? Who else is in her life

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Speaker 2: that you can go interview. Can you track down any

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Speaker 2: of these witnesses on the street car? Maybe these are commuters.

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Speaker 2: You won't be able to get everybody, but if you

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Speaker 2: can go back to the stop she gets picked up

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Speaker 2: at and talk to people who go, yeah, I wrote

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Speaker 2: this yesterday. I wrote it on Wednesday, April third, and

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Speaker 2: talk to them, did you see this girl who was

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Speaker 2: wearing X, Y and Z. Did you see where she

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Speaker 2: got off on?

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Speaker 3: You know?

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Speaker 2: And then now you can start trying to retroactively piece

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Speaker 2: together a timeline. That's the only way, you know, ninety

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Speaker 2: five these investigators would be able to start digging into

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Speaker 2: this case. There's no surveillance cameras to see her walking,

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Speaker 2: you know, down the downtown or wherever.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 2: So, yeah, this is a tough thing. When I'm in

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Speaker 2: a large city, everybody kind of just goes into their

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Speaker 2: own bubble, right, It's it's like, okay, especially on a

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Speaker 2: crowded streetcar, it's sort of like, well, I've got all

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Speaker 2: these people that are inside my personal space. I'm not

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Speaker 2: wanting to make eye contact. I don't want to look

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Speaker 2: like I'm staring at somebody. I'm just kind of going

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Speaker 2: to be in my space. So it's very possible that

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Speaker 2: you have few people that really paid much attention to Blanche.

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Speaker 1: Well, and that's a question. You know, she's pretty nondescript,

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Speaker 1: attractive young woman. I mean, I'm sure there are tons

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Speaker 1: of people like that in San Francisco, very petite, very

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Speaker 1: very petite, very thin, and so maybe that might have

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Speaker 1: clued in a few people. But I just wonder how

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Speaker 1: reliable people on a street car would be, because we

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Speaker 1: do hear those stories like suspects are spotted here and there,

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Speaker 1: and then we find out the suspect's been dead for

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Speaker 1: seven days. How do you know about the reliability of

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Speaker 1: a witness when the witness is a stranger to the

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Speaker 1: person they're trying to identify.

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Speaker 2: Well, that becomes a sort of the million dollar question

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Speaker 2: is are the details that you're getting accurate? And we've

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Speaker 2: seen over and over again, you know, just like with

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Speaker 2: all the cold cases that I've worked, I've got multiple

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Speaker 2: cases in which women or girls initially go missing and

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Speaker 2: then you get all these reports of them being seen

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Speaker 2: in various locations, but then when their bodies found, you recognize, oh,

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Speaker 2: they weren't seen. You know, people are just calling in

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Speaker 2: tips and they're wrong you know. So this is where

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Speaker 2: the investigators have to assess the person they're talking to,

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Speaker 2: have to assess the veracity of the details, you know,

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Speaker 2: And does this add up with what the investigators know

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Speaker 2: about Blanche her physical appearance, you know, And with Blanche's appearance,

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Speaker 2: you know, you mentioned that's she's a young, attractive woman.

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Speaker 2: There's likely going to be some men on the street

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Speaker 2: car that would have at least paid attention to her,

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Speaker 2: go you know, she's attractive, and so they would have

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Speaker 2: made a mental note. And then there's maybe some women

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Speaker 2: that are you know, looking at her, going I like

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Speaker 2: the way she's dressed or something, you know. So that's

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Speaker 2: what you hope for, is you have somebody goes, oh,

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Speaker 2: I remember her because she caught my eye, you know,

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Speaker 2: versus oh, maybe I kind of remember a goal matching

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Speaker 2: that description getting on, but I'm not real sure.

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Speaker 3: I think she got off, you know, at the mission

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Speaker 3: stop or whatever.

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Speaker 2: Then you go, Okay, I'm not so sure that this

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Speaker 2: person really is accurately recalling good detail that I need

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Speaker 2: to follow up on.

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Speaker 1: Well, when she didn't return home that night, the aunt

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Speaker 1: went to the police, and they've been blowing her off.

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Speaker 1: The aunt says she would not have run away. She's

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Speaker 1: twenty one, she's stable, she's fine, she's a student. There's

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Speaker 1: no man that she would run off with. And the

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Speaker 1: police say they think that that's not the case that

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Speaker 1: she wanted to disappear. So my question, I guess is

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Speaker 1: this is victimology. Why would the police not listen to

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Speaker 1: a family member when seemingly this is not someone who

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Speaker 1: you know is in a so called high risk lifestyle.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, and again this you know, I can't

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Speaker 2: speak to you know, the eighteen nineties and law enforcement's

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Speaker 2: mentality when it comes to these missing people cases, but

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Speaker 2: I do know, you know, and this is something that

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Speaker 2: just is somewhat endemic. Is oftentimes, like in some of

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Speaker 2: my older cases, family would say my daughter's missing, and

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Speaker 2: police just assume they're a runaway. And you know, there's

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Speaker 2: a cynical aspect that law enforcement gains because most of

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Speaker 2: these reported missing persons are because they are runaways.

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Speaker 3: And so when you get the true let's say.

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Speaker 2: Abduction that occurs, you know, law enforcement's perception, especially back

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Speaker 2: like in the nineteen seventies on the types of cases

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Speaker 2: I worked, but they just assumed it's another runaway and

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Speaker 2: we've seen at least some improvement where law enforcement will

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Speaker 2: be more proactive earlier with missing reported missing persons. But

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Speaker 2: you know, eighteen ninety five, Blanche is assuming she's abducted,

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Speaker 2: you know the streetcar angle, Well that's gone cold. You know,

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Speaker 2: it's not like the investigators had photos of Blanche really

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Speaker 2: that they could go to witnesses and say, hey, do

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Speaker 2: you remember a week ago seeing this young woman. Now,

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Speaker 2: what you have to hope for is that if there

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Speaker 2: was truly an abduction and there was a witness to

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Speaker 2: that abduction, you know, now that's going to be something

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Speaker 2: that will stay in that witness's mind. I saw this

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Speaker 2: woman being drug around the corner. Okay, it's big city,

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Speaker 2: likely there's you know, lots of crime going on, but

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Speaker 2: that's potentially a starting point to see. Okay, well maybe

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Speaker 2: Blanche is that woman that was being drug away. So

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Speaker 2: you're looking now for that type of detail that is

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Speaker 2: really going to persist after a week.

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Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about the timeline of this investigation because

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Speaker 1: we can juxtapose it to what this would have been

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Speaker 1: like today. So you know, today somebody gets on a

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Speaker 1: street car, she goes missing. You've got what CCTV. You've

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Speaker 1: got the access to radio and television putting out a

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Speaker 1: polea from police if you were on the streetcar, if

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Speaker 1: you've seen this woman, and then you would expect I

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Speaker 1: would guess when you a flood of responses fairly quickly

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Speaker 1: when you spread it out on this media, whether they're

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Speaker 1: good responses or not. Do people respond pretty quickly to

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Speaker 1: these sort of urgent police from the police when someone

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Speaker 1: has been abducted.

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Speaker 2: Well to a point, you know, in this day and age, yes,

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Speaker 2: but you know it's not everybody responds, you know. Part

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Speaker 2: of in my experience, like when law enforcement puts something out,

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Speaker 2: let's say, in social media.

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Speaker 3: If you ever take a look at.

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Speaker 2: Most of law enforcement's number of followers, it's tiny, right,

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Speaker 2: That's not like they're getting notifications from the local PD

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Speaker 2: and their people. You know, people are going, oh, I

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Speaker 2: better report something in and there's you know, hundreds of

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Speaker 2: thousands of people that are getting that notification.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 2: So that's that's part of like when I've been involved,

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Speaker 2: let's say, whether it be with TV shows or podcasts,

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Speaker 2: as well as my own social media. Because I have

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Speaker 2: a number of followers, I can amplify what law enforcement's

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Speaker 2: message is far more than what law enforcement typically can do,

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Speaker 2: just because they don't have the number of followers in

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Speaker 2: this day and age. Yes, you're looking for those tips

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Speaker 2: from witnesses, and you've got the technology with the surveillance cameras,

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Speaker 2: but also you have the devices. The devices are huge,

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Speaker 2: so the phones, the tablets that people carry, even sometimes

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Speaker 2: you know, the laptops. You know now that you have

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Speaker 2: location services, you know with these devices, you have Wi

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Speaker 2: Fi aspects. There's a variety of different avenues law enforcement

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Speaker 2: can exploit to see, Okay, where did let's say Blanche's

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Speaker 2: phone go, you know, and when did did it stop,

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Speaker 2: you know, pinging? When did it get turned off? But

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Speaker 2: of course eighteen ninety five, they really don't have anything

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Speaker 2: but gumshoe detective work in order to try to track

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Speaker 2: down Blanche or and the likely possibility is when somebody

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Speaker 2: reports her body being found.

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Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about how important it is to get

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Speaker 1: information as soon as possible in a murder investigation. You know,

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Speaker 1: I said about a week after Blanche went missing, the

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Speaker 1: aunt is continuing to pound on the door of the

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Speaker 1: police and they're saying that she's probably run away. Finally

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Speaker 1: they take it seriously. They canvas, they track down people,

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Speaker 1: They put articles in newspapers, start writing about it. Does

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Speaker 1: anybody know where this woman is? Has anybody seen, you know,

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Speaker 1: what happened to her on the street car? They start

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Speaker 1: getting witnesses. Ten days later, we have multiple witnesses who say, yes,

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Speaker 1: they saw Blanche outside of the school right before she

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Speaker 1: caught the street car, and she was with a man

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Speaker 1: and they got on the street car together. Another one

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Speaker 1: of Blanche's classmates. I mean, I can't believe they waited

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Speaker 1: this long, But one of Blanche's classmates said, this is

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Speaker 1: a guy that they've seen. He waits for her often

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Speaker 1: after she gets out of classes. He was a medical student.

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Speaker 1: He had a dark mustache. And that's about all they

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Speaker 1: could say. They said that there were people who were

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Speaker 1: on the same street car. Say yes, a man with

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Speaker 1: a mustache was on the street car with this young woman.

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Speaker 1: But that's about it. So they were able after ten

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Speaker 1: days to track down at least you know, part of

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Speaker 1: what her timeline was that afternoon when she went missing.

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Speaker 1: But ten days later, if they had just believed the

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Speaker 1: aunt to begin with, this could have gone a much faster, don't.

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Speaker 2: You think, Yes, you know, and this is where time

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Speaker 2: is of the essence in these types of cases, there's

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Speaker 2: no question about it, in part for the safety of

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Speaker 2: the victim, but also so you can have fresh memories

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Speaker 2: to provide you accurate leads. However, this sounds promising. You

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Speaker 2: have multiple witnesses saying Blanche was seen with this man.

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Speaker 2: It doesn't sound like these witnesses know the man's name,

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Speaker 2: but they're giving a physical description saying he's a medical

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Speaker 2: student and he's meeting Blanche after getting off school. So

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Speaker 2: now they have a focus to see if they would

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Speaker 2: be able to identify this man. Where is he a

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Speaker 2: medical student at? You know, part of the investigative tactic

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Speaker 2: would be just having an undercover plane clothes cop standing

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Speaker 2: outside of the school looking nondescript, seeing if there's a

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Speaker 2: man that meets that description who ends up walking by

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Speaker 2: or ends up you know, contacting another woman outside of

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Speaker 2: the school. But there's at least something where they can

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Speaker 2: start digging in, and it may be where now they

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Speaker 2: have to go and talk to more people at the

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Speaker 2: school and say, hey, do you do you know a

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Speaker 2: man that fits this description?

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Speaker 3: Have you seen this man with Blanche? What's his name?

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Speaker 2: Where does he go to medical school, et cetera, and

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Speaker 2: hopefully be able to track this man down. And right now,

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Speaker 2: he's not a suspect as far as what I would consider,

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Speaker 2: but he's a witness. And if he's getting on the

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Speaker 2: streetcar with Blanche and he knows her, he may be

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Speaker 2: able to say if he's not the one responsible for

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Speaker 2: her going missing, he may be able to say what

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Speaker 2: stops she got off on and where she was headed to.

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Speaker 1: Well, as the police are trying to find Blanche, there

356
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Speaker 1: is something else that happens. The day that the newspapers

357
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Speaker 1: report all this stuff about this mystery man and Blanche

358
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Speaker 1: on the street car and she's gone missing, another woman

359
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Speaker 1: goes missing. And here's where it gets really interesting for me.

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Speaker 1: The woman who goes missing is the same age. She's

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Speaker 1: twenty one, and her name is Minnie Williams. And here's

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Speaker 1: the connection. Both Many and Blanche were members of the

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Speaker 1: same Baptist church and they were Sunday school classmates. So

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Speaker 1: now our big city gets narrowed down, just like you said,

365
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Speaker 1: to a much small, much much smaller community. Could be

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Speaker 1: a coincidence, I guess probably not.

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Speaker 2: You know, there's in my experience as coincidences do happen,

368
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Speaker 2: so you have to consider that is a possibility. However,

369
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Speaker 2: it is something that you know, with that type of

370
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Speaker 2: victim linkage, now there's at least a focus on a

371
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Speaker 2: potential lead. You have similar victimologies in terms of association

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Speaker 2: with the church, same age, they likely knew each other.

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Speaker 2: Of course that the initially as I'm as I'm listening

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Speaker 2: to this, it's like, Okay, now do we have a

375
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Speaker 2: a serial predator, you know, and his victim pool is

376
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Speaker 2: this Baptist church? Does he attend the same church or

377
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Speaker 2: is he just you know, waiting outside for whatever reason

378
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Speaker 2: of that location, you know, to you know, shop for victims.

379
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Speaker 2: But obviously I need to know more about, you know,

380
00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:59,600
Speaker 2: how this case progresses to make that determination. But this

381
00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:02,520
Speaker 2: is where our investigators need to at least put some

382
00:21:02,680 --> 00:21:06,280
Speaker 2: resources on really drilling down on that church, who's at

383
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Speaker 2: that church, and what did anybody see or know about,

384
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Speaker 2: you know, what's going on with Blanche and many and

385
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Speaker 2: anybody that they may be contacting with through the church itself.

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Speaker 1: And it gets complicated because we are approaching Easter services.

387
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Speaker 1: It gets a little more complicated because you have a

388
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Speaker 1: lot of people coming in and out of the church,

389
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Speaker 1: some new people who are coming in. And so even

390
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Speaker 1: though we have a smaller community than San Francisco that

391
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Speaker 1: we're dealing with, if we're really focusing in on the church,

392
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Speaker 1: there's still our extra people around who could be involved.

393
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Speaker 1: You know, we don't know. And so I can tell

394
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Speaker 1: you a little bit more about Many and the circumstances

395
00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:51,880
Speaker 1: of her disappearance before we really get into what ends

396
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Speaker 1: up happening here.

397
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Speaker 2: Right, And of course it sounds like because of the

398
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Speaker 2: Easter service that's coming up, your potential suspect pool of

399
00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:04,480
Speaker 2: ten des with that church, it grows. And of course

400
00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:08,399
Speaker 2: there's your devout attendees that always attend year round, and

401
00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:11,960
Speaker 2: they all probably know each other or at least familiar

402
00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:15,280
Speaker 2: with who all's coming on a regular basis. But when

403
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Speaker 2: you go to you know, I was born and raised Catholic,

404
00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:22,280
Speaker 2: and you go to Christmas Mass, now you have all

405
00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:25,879
Speaker 2: the other people because of you know, maybe family pressure

406
00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:28,840
Speaker 2: as well. Okay, now I'm attending this Mass service and

407
00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:31,680
Speaker 2: it's a lot of strangers that are inside there. As

408
00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:36,120
Speaker 2: you said earlier, that does complicate the assessment of potentially

409
00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:40,159
Speaker 2: who Many and Blanche were possibly either interacting with or

410
00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:43,359
Speaker 2: maybe they were followed. But yeah, tell me more about

411
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Speaker 2: Many's circumstances of how she goes missing.

412
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Speaker 1: Well, one other note. In some ways, I would also

413
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Speaker 1: be very concerned about the vendors, because you have to

414
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Speaker 1: think that they're bringing in more flowers, maybe they're doing repairs.

415
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Speaker 1: Maybe they have people who aren't going to be sitting

416
00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:02,280
Speaker 1: through a service necessarily as a predator. They could kind

417
00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:04,760
Speaker 1: of just be coming in and out. Who knows, you

418
00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:07,720
Speaker 1: know what these people have done in their past. So yeah,

419
00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:10,760
Speaker 1: like a much bigger pool of people. Let me tell

420
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Speaker 1: you about Mini So I mentioned before twenty one, the

421
00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:17,840
Speaker 1: same age as Blanche. She's no longer active on a

422
00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:22,639
Speaker 1: weekly basis with the Baptist Church because she's now in Alameda.

423
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Speaker 1: A year earlier before her disappearance, several of Miny's siblings

424
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Speaker 1: died of diphtheria. I'd like to go on a little

425
00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:35,280
Speaker 1: route here. What is diphtheria exactly? I mean, I've read

426
00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:37,560
Speaker 1: about it, but I just can't write. I get all

427
00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:40,680
Speaker 1: of my deadly diseases of the nineteenth century confused sometimes

428
00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:42,000
Speaker 1: what's diptheria?

429
00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:44,399
Speaker 2: You know, I'm having to look it up, and you

430
00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:47,479
Speaker 2: know it's a it's a very serious infection. It's caused

431
00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:51,840
Speaker 2: by a particular strain of bacteria, okay, and that bacteria

432
00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:55,359
Speaker 2: makes a toxin. You know, I at least have heard

433
00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:56,960
Speaker 2: of the theory in the past, and I know diph

434
00:23:56,960 --> 00:23:59,760
Speaker 2: theoria was a serious disease, you know, way back in

435
00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:01,360
Speaker 2: the day before antibiotics.

436
00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:04,160
Speaker 1: Well, and it looks like it kills young people. Because

437
00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:07,560
Speaker 1: these are her siblings and she's twenty one. Her parents

438
00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:11,679
Speaker 1: divorce after this, and she moves around a little bit

439
00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:14,400
Speaker 1: with her mother and her sister. But when she vanished,

440
00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:16,920
Speaker 1: her mother and her sister were in Canada, and many

441
00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:19,919
Speaker 1: decided to stay behind and live in Alameda. But she

442
00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:23,240
Speaker 1: was so fond of the Emmanuel Baptist Church that she

443
00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:26,679
Speaker 1: wanted to go to the Easter services. So that's why

444
00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:30,240
Speaker 1: she was there. Here are the circumstances, So now I

445
00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:33,280
Speaker 1: have to go back one day. So on the afternoon

446
00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:37,120
Speaker 1: of Friday, April twelfth, this is Good Friday, she comes

447
00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:40,040
Speaker 1: to town. Many comes to town with their trunk at

448
00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:42,560
Speaker 1: the home of a woman that she's staying with who

449
00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:47,320
Speaker 1: is just a friend, missus boys. And that evening Friday

450
00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:50,040
Speaker 1: she gets into town. And that evening she says she's

451
00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:53,240
Speaker 1: going out to a meeting of the church's Young people's

452
00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:56,840
Speaker 1: Christian Endeavor group and they're having a party. You know,

453
00:24:56,920 --> 00:24:59,960
Speaker 1: it's Easter weekend and they're having a party, and she said,

454
00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:03,280
Speaker 1: I'm going to this party. I'll be home. She leaves

455
00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:07,560
Speaker 1: at seven thirty that Friday night. This is just so

456
00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:12,400
Speaker 1: you know, nine days after Blanche has disappeared, and she's

457
00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:15,200
Speaker 1: supposed to go to this party and she doesn't show

458
00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:18,720
Speaker 1: up to the party, and then she is missing after that,

459
00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:22,760
Speaker 1: So another mystery, and the woman sounds the alarm, and

460
00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:25,560
Speaker 1: now the police are very concerned, just because now you've

461
00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:28,439
Speaker 1: got two women, both connected to this church, who are

462
00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:31,200
Speaker 1: both missing in less than two weeks from each other.

463
00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:36,720
Speaker 2: Okay, so many she comes over from Alameda, and who

464
00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:37,640
Speaker 2: is she staying with?

465
00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:41,760
Speaker 1: Just a friend, family friend who's married, and you know,

466
00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:45,240
Speaker 1: is just supposed to stay until Sunday when services are done,

467
00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:46,440
Speaker 1: and then she's going to go back home.

468
00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:49,840
Speaker 2: And I imagine this family friend probably lives in generally

469
00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:54,359
Speaker 2: the same area where Blanche and her aunt were living,

470
00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:56,600
Speaker 2: since they're still going to that same.

471
00:25:56,520 --> 00:25:58,600
Speaker 1: Church, right yep, neighborhood church.

472
00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:01,879
Speaker 2: And then at seven thirty she leaves to go to

473
00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:03,560
Speaker 2: the youth group party.

474
00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:06,320
Speaker 1: Yep, it's at a house. It's not at the church,

475
00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:09,879
Speaker 1: it's at a house of a different parishioner, and she

476
00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:12,119
Speaker 1: never shows up. There are lots of people at the party.

477
00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:13,920
Speaker 1: She doesn't show up when she's supposed to.

478
00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:17,600
Speaker 3: Okay, and she's likely just walking to this house or

479
00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:18,640
Speaker 3: taking a street car.

480
00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:19,600
Speaker 1: It sounds like it.

481
00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:23,760
Speaker 2: Yes, you know, several thoughts that are going through my head,

482
00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:26,840
Speaker 2: you know, because I'm kind of comparing and contrasting the

483
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:33,960
Speaker 2: circumstances around Blanche's disappearance versus Mini's. Blanche sounds like she's

484
00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:37,680
Speaker 2: in a very kind of a busier area San Francisco

485
00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:38,600
Speaker 2: when she gets on the.

486
00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:40,800
Speaker 1: Streetcar and it's in the middle of the day, it's

487
00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:42,520
Speaker 1: at three fifteen pm.

488
00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:45,880
Speaker 2: Right, and then in a separate location, but in the

489
00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:50,800
Speaker 2: same neighborhood, same community where Blanche and her aunt were living.

490
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:54,679
Speaker 2: Then we have many who's leaving to go to a

491
00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:58,720
Speaker 2: party at a house in that community, but it's probably

492
00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:02,280
Speaker 2: in a of a more isolated, what do you want

493
00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:05,879
Speaker 2: to say, subdivision within San Francisco itself.

494
00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:09,120
Speaker 1: You're right, a quieter in a quieter time of the day, certainly.

495
00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:11,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, So I'm trying to figure out if we're dealing

496
00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:16,440
Speaker 2: with a singular offender, a single offender responsible for both

497
00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:20,800
Speaker 2: of these women going missing. How is he crossing pass

498
00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:24,639
Speaker 2: with Mini. It's not like there's like some big announcement

499
00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:28,440
Speaker 2: that Minnie is going to be staying at her friend's

500
00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:31,960
Speaker 2: house and going to the Easter services at the church.

501
00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:34,439
Speaker 3: I can't imagine unless.

502
00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:36,560
Speaker 2: You know, there is a small group within the church

503
00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:39,679
Speaker 2: and they're saying, hey, Mini is coming. You know, remember

504
00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:42,080
Speaker 2: Many for what she used to attend before she moved away,

505
00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:43,200
Speaker 2: while she's going to come back.

506
00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:43,520
Speaker 3: You know.

507
00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:47,359
Speaker 2: So is this offender part of a group that would

508
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:53,280
Speaker 2: include Many and Blanche or is this he just coincidentally

509
00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:56,840
Speaker 2: happens to be in the same location as Mani and

510
00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:01,240
Speaker 2: she's isolated herself, probably walking alone or riding a streetcar

511
00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:04,520
Speaker 2: to get to the party, and he takes advantage of

512
00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:08,360
Speaker 2: her being alone, just like he took advantage of Blanche.

513
00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:11,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, And to you now, the way that you're hearing this,

514
00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:15,040
Speaker 1: where we have two people with kind of unpredictable schedules,

515
00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:17,800
Speaker 1: it sounds like, does this seem more likely that this

516
00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:20,760
Speaker 1: is connected to the church since they're both connected to

517
00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:23,840
Speaker 1: the church, or would this be like kind of crime

518
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:26,639
Speaker 1: of opportunities. We don't even know what happens with the

519
00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:27,240
Speaker 1: crime yet.

520
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:30,240
Speaker 2: Well, I think with Blanche, Blanche sounds like she had

521
00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:34,240
Speaker 2: a regular schedule, and we've got at least this mystery

522
00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:38,680
Speaker 2: man who is meeting her after school on a regular basis,

523
00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:41,640
Speaker 2: and so there could be pre planning. If he's responsible,

524
00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:44,720
Speaker 2: there could be pre planning. Or if there's another offender

525
00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:47,360
Speaker 2: that is seeing Blanche coming on to the same streetcar

526
00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:50,000
Speaker 2: on a regular basis because that's the one that she

527
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:53,600
Speaker 2: would take to go home or whatever, then you could

528
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:57,000
Speaker 2: see where that's pre planned. With many, this sounds like

529
00:28:57,160 --> 00:28:59,440
Speaker 2: more of a victim of opportunity because this is not

530
00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:03,600
Speaker 2: a root teen scheduled thing that she is doing right.

531
00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:06,000
Speaker 1: And so the woman that she's staying with, the only

532
00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:08,479
Speaker 1: thing she knows is Mannie says, I'm going to a party.

533
00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:10,560
Speaker 1: At seven point thirty, she walks out the door. The

534
00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:13,400
Speaker 1: woman has no idea if she met somebody and walked,

535
00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:16,320
Speaker 1: you know, over to this parishioner's house or what happens.

536
00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:19,600
Speaker 1: That's all we know right now. So now things get

537
00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:22,200
Speaker 1: complicated and you're probably going to have to tell me

538
00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:25,000
Speaker 1: what you want to hear about first, and now we

539
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:30,080
Speaker 1: are going to center on this church. Saturday. This is

540
00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:34,120
Speaker 1: the day where the police finally track down Blanche's witnesses

541
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:36,480
Speaker 1: who say, yes, we saw her on a street car

542
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:38,640
Speaker 1: with this guy. Everybody kind of has the same description

543
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:42,280
Speaker 1: of this guy. This same day, we have a group

544
00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:45,160
Speaker 1: of young women who are going to the church and

545
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:48,200
Speaker 1: they want to set up to decorate for Easter services,

546
00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:51,440
Speaker 1: which would be the next day. So Minnie has been

547
00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:56,480
Speaker 1: missing now for you know, maybe twelve hours, and they

548
00:29:56,520 --> 00:29:59,800
Speaker 1: go to the church library to get some supplies out

549
00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:02,680
Speaker 1: of the closet, and it sounds like the door of

550
00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:08,360
Speaker 1: the closet in the library is open and laying partially

551
00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:11,000
Speaker 1: in the closet, partially out of it is the body

552
00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:15,640
Speaker 1: of Manny Williams, the second woman who went missing, and

553
00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:19,880
Speaker 1: she is dead. And there's a lot to unpack about

554
00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:22,840
Speaker 1: this scene. But she is in the church and there

555
00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:25,640
Speaker 1: are no signs of Blanche as of right now.

556
00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:30,040
Speaker 2: Well, obviously there's a connection to the church. You have

557
00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:31,880
Speaker 2: a crime scene at the church, not does that mean

558
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:34,520
Speaker 2: the offender has a connection to the church or could

559
00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:37,920
Speaker 2: the offender just take advantage of that facility in order

560
00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:41,600
Speaker 2: to be able to you know, move Many to that location.

561
00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:43,120
Speaker 3: And kill her there.

562
00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:47,920
Speaker 2: Of course, this occurring inside the church likely is occurring

563
00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:50,920
Speaker 2: at a time when nobody else is inside the church, right.

564
00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:55,200
Speaker 2: Part of what I would want to know was how

565
00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:59,040
Speaker 2: this building is typically secure, if it's if it is

566
00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:02,240
Speaker 2: secure something that is just wide open for the public

567
00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:04,719
Speaker 2: to come and go all the time, or is it

568
00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:08,280
Speaker 2: limited access? And then who has access? You know, such

569
00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:11,280
Speaker 2: as the pastor as an example, he's the one that

570
00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:14,720
Speaker 2: has the keys to the church, the janitor comes in,

571
00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:15,600
Speaker 2: who cleans the church?

572
00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:16,160
Speaker 3: You know?

573
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:19,840
Speaker 2: Who are those individuals? But now the use of the

574
00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:24,240
Speaker 2: church is interesting because at least with Many, she's leaving

575
00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:27,440
Speaker 2: her friend's house and she's going to a youth group party.

576
00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:32,640
Speaker 2: She's not indicating she's stopping by the church, right, So

577
00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:34,560
Speaker 2: how does she end up at the church? Why does

578
00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:36,440
Speaker 2: she end up at the church? What does that inform

579
00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:39,360
Speaker 2: us about who the offender might be? So part of

580
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:43,000
Speaker 2: my next steps, of course, this is where I have

581
00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:46,080
Speaker 2: to drill down on what was done to Many, What

582
00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:49,160
Speaker 2: does the crime scene say, and then that could give

583
00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:53,080
Speaker 2: me some insight as to sort of the suspect pools

584
00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:53,960
Speaker 2: I would be looking at.

585
00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:57,080
Speaker 1: Well, a lot happens with many and a lot of

586
00:31:57,120 --> 00:32:00,880
Speaker 1: the details are, you know, pretty gruesome. Now, I just

587
00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:03,600
Speaker 1: want you to remember with sequencing, I'm sure you will

588
00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:07,200
Speaker 1: remember this. This is the second person, so she is

589
00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:10,240
Speaker 1: the second person to have gone missing. The corner says

590
00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:13,480
Speaker 1: that her arm is stretched over her head and you

591
00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:16,560
Speaker 1: could see it from the entrance of the library. Near

592
00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:21,800
Speaker 1: the body is a broken kitchen knife. And it's clear

593
00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:26,080
Speaker 1: that this is the weapon because she has been stabbed many,

594
00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:28,760
Speaker 1: many times. And I could tell you those details. Do

595
00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:31,280
Speaker 1: you need more or do you want to stop and

596
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:32,200
Speaker 1: say something here?

597
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:36,120
Speaker 2: Well, you know, the broken knife, that is something that

598
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:40,280
Speaker 2: is seen on a fairly routine basis when you're dealing

599
00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:45,480
Speaker 2: with stabbings, especially with kind of cheaper knives, when the

600
00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:48,600
Speaker 2: offender is stabbing the victim who you know, let's say,

601
00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:51,480
Speaker 2: laying on the floor, and the knife goes all the

602
00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:54,920
Speaker 2: way through the victim's body and then strikes the floor underneath.

603
00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:58,120
Speaker 2: You know, there are times when the blade itself will break,

604
00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:00,840
Speaker 2: either the tip of the blade or at the There

605
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:04,240
Speaker 2: are times that during stabbings and the knife is inside

606
00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:06,720
Speaker 2: the victim's body and he and she kind of turns

607
00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:09,840
Speaker 2: and moves her bone is struck. You could also see

608
00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:15,280
Speaker 2: where the cheaper metal will will break. So she stabbed,

609
00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:18,320
Speaker 2: you know, multiple times. That's all I need to know

610
00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:20,280
Speaker 2: in terms of that. You know, I'm not going to

611
00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:22,600
Speaker 2: ask how many times was she stabbed, but let's just

612
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:24,800
Speaker 2: say the stabbing is likely going to be to her

613
00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:27,040
Speaker 2: tor So is she stabbed in the face at all?

614
00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:28,000
Speaker 3: Is her throat cut?

615
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:30,760
Speaker 1: Let me tell you what they said without being too graphic.

616
00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:34,479
Speaker 1: There are two thick puddles of blood on the floor

617
00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:37,920
Speaker 1: and a spray of blood on one wall. They said

618
00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:41,040
Speaker 1: there is no evidence of a struggle, so they thought

619
00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:45,120
Speaker 1: this was a total surprise attack. The one newspaper said

620
00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:48,040
Speaker 1: she was lying on her back, covered with blood, the

621
00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:51,920
Speaker 1: clothing was disarranged, she had been stabbed in several places.

622
00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:54,480
Speaker 1: I read more than a dozen times in another article.

623
00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:58,120
Speaker 1: Her right hand was almost cut off, and there was

624
00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:01,120
Speaker 1: a horrible gash on her forehead. Some of the clothing

625
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:04,840
Speaker 1: have been torn from her body. And everything points to

626
00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:09,400
Speaker 1: an outrage followed by murder. And remember I said, outraged

627
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:13,160
Speaker 1: and ravage are both nineteenth century terms for sexual assault.

628
00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:14,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, and there's.

629
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:16,839
Speaker 1: More after that, but I figure that might be enough

630
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:17,479
Speaker 1: for right now.

631
00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:19,719
Speaker 2: You know, right now, with what you've told me, this

632
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:22,680
Speaker 2: looks like this is a you know, sexually motivated homicide.

633
00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:25,120
Speaker 3: Her right hand almost being cut off. That sounds like

634
00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:26,320
Speaker 3: it's a defensive wound.

635
00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:30,480
Speaker 2: So she's at least cognizant that she is starting to

636
00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:32,920
Speaker 2: be attacked, you know, and so she's trying to ward

637
00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:35,799
Speaker 2: the knife off, possibly grabs the knife. What we don't

638
00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:38,480
Speaker 2: know at this point, would you know, did the offender

639
00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:41,399
Speaker 2: just pop up out of the shadows or did he

640
00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:43,799
Speaker 2: and she and of course I'm using the term he,

641
00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:46,279
Speaker 2: you know, but right now we don't know if this

642
00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:48,440
Speaker 2: is a male offender. But with the sexual assault, I

643
00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:52,320
Speaker 2: would say likely it's a male or did this offender

644
00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:55,879
Speaker 2: and many you know, walk into the church together and

645
00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:59,279
Speaker 2: then he twists off and starts attacking her. Now that

646
00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:02,319
Speaker 2: he's got this woman isolated, So this is also now

647
00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:04,800
Speaker 2: assessing the crime scene in the facility, you know, what

648
00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:08,680
Speaker 2: is going on there in terms of the security.

649
00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:11,440
Speaker 1: Well, I will say with the wounds, what's interesting is

650
00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:14,040
Speaker 1: that they seem to be confined a little bit to

651
00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:17,520
Speaker 1: the torso, but mostly to her face. There was a

652
00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:20,520
Speaker 1: gash between her eyes, part of the knife was in

653
00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:24,320
Speaker 1: her breast, the part that was broken. So, yeah, this

654
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:27,360
Speaker 1: sounds awful, and it does sound like she was fighting back.

655
00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:31,640
Speaker 1: Here's the other thing. None of the police and any

656
00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:34,680
Speaker 1: of the immediate prisoners who came in could identify who

657
00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:37,880
Speaker 1: this woman was, and because she hadn't been there for

658
00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:41,680
Speaker 1: a year. So when a doctor shows up, he opens

659
00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:45,839
Speaker 1: her mouth and he discovers that part of Minnie's undergarments

660
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:49,000
Speaker 1: have been stuffed down her throat. Uh, okay, is that

661
00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:50,719
Speaker 1: a gag? Is that what that is? Or is that

662
00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:52,040
Speaker 1: something different?

663
00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:54,759
Speaker 3: There's multiple purposes that offenders do this.

664
00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:59,279
Speaker 2: Yes, there is the use of the victim's clothing inside

665
00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:03,719
Speaker 2: the mouth. Mouth is sometimes placed there to prevent the

666
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:07,520
Speaker 2: victim from crying out from screamings in essence a gig.

667
00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:12,320
Speaker 2: It's also used to asphyxiate, you know, if the offender,

668
00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:15,759
Speaker 2: just like I've brought up examples where let's say an

669
00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:19,840
Speaker 2: offender manually strangles a victim and then ties a ligature

670
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:23,680
Speaker 2: around afterwards. That's to make sure the victim's dead. So

671
00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:28,040
Speaker 2: this insertion of the clothing, the victim's clothing into her

672
00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:32,360
Speaker 2: mouth is also potentially used to ensure that the victim

673
00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:37,040
Speaker 2: can't breathe after the offender walks away. These killers, even

674
00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:42,000
Speaker 2: though they're able to accomplish the homicide, they're oftentimes, especially

675
00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:45,080
Speaker 2: early in the beginning novice killers. You know, it's like,

676
00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:47,600
Speaker 2: did I do enough to actually kill the victim? And

677
00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:50,520
Speaker 2: so now they take extra steps so when they walk away,

678
00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:53,520
Speaker 2: they have the confidence that the victim is not going

679
00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:58,520
Speaker 2: to survive their attack. But then there's also behavioral aspects

680
00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:01,279
Speaker 2: of stuffing her undergarments to her mouth, you know, and.

681
00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:06,360
Speaker 3: This starts to speak towards.

682
00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:08,760
Speaker 2: Now you may be dealing with a fantasy motivated killer.

683
00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:12,440
Speaker 2: This stuffing of the garment in her mouth may be

684
00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:16,200
Speaker 2: something that the killer has fantasized about, maybe has seen

685
00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:19,799
Speaker 2: in some I don't know inn eighteen nineties. You know

686
00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:22,600
Speaker 2: what kinds of materials that they would be looking at

687
00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:25,880
Speaker 2: or reading, you know, that could feed their fantasy going

688
00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:28,319
Speaker 2: this is what I want to do, and it could

689
00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:31,040
Speaker 2: be a signature. You know, this would be something where

690
00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:33,400
Speaker 2: you could have multiple victims, and this would be something

691
00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:36,320
Speaker 2: that the offender. It's not necessary to accomplish the crime,

692
00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:40,000
Speaker 2: but the offender does it because the offender has a

693
00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:43,960
Speaker 2: fantasy of doing that. It's a behavioral side. So not

694
00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:47,000
Speaker 2: sure what's going on, you know, just with the verbal

695
00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:52,160
Speaker 2: descriptors on in this particular case, however, this is sounding

696
00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:55,399
Speaker 2: this is a predator and you know, causes me great

697
00:37:55,440 --> 00:38:00,000
Speaker 2: concerns about what's happened to Blanche, and whereas Blanche's body.

698
00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:05,759
Speaker 1: Are concerned too, And the church points to someone who

699
00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:09,799
Speaker 1: works there as the most likely suspect when police ask.

700
00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:14,640
Speaker 1: It is the librarian for the Sunday School, and we

701
00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:18,040
Speaker 1: know that many and Blanche both went to Sunday School classes.

702
00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:23,080
Speaker 1: This is a man named Theodore Durant. He's twenty five,

703
00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:25,319
Speaker 1: and they make a big deal about the fact that

704
00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:27,600
Speaker 1: he's five foot six. Everybody in the story is small,

705
00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:31,320
Speaker 1: the women are small. He's short. He is also a

706
00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:34,920
Speaker 1: dental student, and we will learn that he is the

707
00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:39,839
Speaker 1: man that people say they saw multiple times picking up

708
00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:44,359
Speaker 1: Blanche after school and is the man with the mustache

709
00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:47,880
Speaker 1: who apparently got on the street car with Blanche. And

710
00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:51,560
Speaker 1: now police are very alarmed and he denies all of it.

711
00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:53,520
Speaker 1: Of course, what do you think about that?

712
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:57,560
Speaker 2: Well, how quickly do they get onto Durant? Are they

713
00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:02,000
Speaker 2: interviewing him like you know day that they mini's found.

714
00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:06,640
Speaker 1: It seems like it because he had apparently been involved

715
00:39:06,680 --> 00:39:09,560
Speaker 1: with both of these women romantically and people knew it.

716
00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:14,480
Speaker 1: I think that people thought maybe he was a little sleazy, unpredictable,

717
00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:17,160
Speaker 1: and so when they thought, oh gosh, both of them,

718
00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:19,560
Speaker 1: you know, both members of this church had gone missing.

719
00:39:19,640 --> 00:39:23,000
Speaker 1: Now one's dead in the church. Who has access to

720
00:39:23,080 --> 00:39:26,040
Speaker 1: the church. It is the librarian of course, for the

721
00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:28,840
Speaker 1: Sunday School. I will say, though, Paul, it's interesting, I

722
00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:31,879
Speaker 1: don't know how much access he had because they said

723
00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:34,080
Speaker 1: that the lock on the door between the library and

724
00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:37,040
Speaker 1: the sanctuary had been broken to a point where a

725
00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:40,040
Speaker 1: piece of the doorframe was also broken. I don't know

726
00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:42,200
Speaker 1: if he was trying to if this is the person,

727
00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:43,840
Speaker 1: if he was trying to do it to kind of,

728
00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:45,879
Speaker 1: you know, cover up the fact that maybe he did

729
00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:49,920
Speaker 1: have access. But yeah, that's part of the evidence that

730
00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:52,080
Speaker 1: they have when they start talking to Theodore.

731
00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:57,160
Speaker 2: Well, if he's breaking you know, the lock to this

732
00:39:57,320 --> 00:40:01,799
Speaker 2: door himself, this is likely what we call staging. He's

733
00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:03,960
Speaker 2: trying to make it look like a stranger who did

734
00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:07,319
Speaker 2: not have access is coming in. But you also have

735
00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:10,359
Speaker 2: to pay attention to the possibility that maybe somebody who

736
00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:11,240
Speaker 2: did not have access.

737
00:40:11,239 --> 00:40:13,280
Speaker 3: It's the one response for this crime.

738
00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:17,520
Speaker 2: So everything right now I mean, this Durant character is

739
00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:22,040
Speaker 2: he is now a significant individual in this case, no

740
00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:25,160
Speaker 2: question about it. It's what's going on with the interview,

741
00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:28,040
Speaker 2: what's going on with the clothing he was wearing. Because

742
00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:32,480
Speaker 2: he's stabbing many, the offender stabbing many multiple times, You've

743
00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:36,680
Speaker 2: got multiple blood pools. You have what they called blood spray.

744
00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:40,080
Speaker 2: I'm wondering if that's either cast off from the knife.

745
00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:42,360
Speaker 2: I mean you can if her throat was cut, you

746
00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:44,240
Speaker 2: possibly could have an arterial spurt.

747
00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:45,200
Speaker 3: Well, her heart is.

748
00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:47,759
Speaker 2: Still beating, but there's a chance that he's going to

749
00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:50,160
Speaker 2: have at least some of her blood on his person,

750
00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:54,200
Speaker 2: on his clothing. Did they search for any evidence like that?

751
00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:57,760
Speaker 2: Does he have any fresh cuts to his hands himself?

752
00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:01,719
Speaker 2: Does he have any scratches? I many's fighting him. So

753
00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:04,720
Speaker 2: now this is really focusing in on, you know, Durant,

754
00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:07,760
Speaker 2: you know, from a physical evidence standpoint, but then also

755
00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:10,760
Speaker 2: an alibi standpoint. What is he saying he did? Where

756
00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:13,200
Speaker 2: was he at? Do you have witnesses that could support that?

757
00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:16,120
Speaker 2: All efforts must be going in on trying to figure

758
00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:20,200
Speaker 2: out is Durant responsible for many? And then also okay,

759
00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:21,080
Speaker 2: where's Blanche.

760
00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:25,600
Speaker 1: Well let's talk about first Mini. So we have witnesses

761
00:41:25,640 --> 00:41:29,279
Speaker 1: who say that Theodore was with Minnie the night that

762
00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:32,080
Speaker 1: she disappeared. She left the house at seven point thirty.

763
00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:35,520
Speaker 1: There's a man named Charles Hills who lives near the church.

764
00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:38,960
Speaker 1: He said, Now he does not know Theodor and Mani,

765
00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:42,279
Speaker 1: but he says thirty minutes later after she left, around

766
00:41:42,320 --> 00:41:44,960
Speaker 1: eight o'clock, that there was a man and a woman

767
00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:49,000
Speaker 1: who matched Mani and Theodor's descriptions that night, having a

768
00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:53,360
Speaker 1: heated conversation outside the church, and then they went through

769
00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:56,440
Speaker 1: the church through the side door, and he said it

770
00:41:56,480 --> 00:41:58,960
Speaker 1: looked like the woman, who was very small and Minnie

771
00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:03,480
Speaker 1: was very small, was dragged inside by her arm. Now,

772
00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:07,480
Speaker 1: this is not somebody who knows either of them, matches

773
00:42:07,520 --> 00:42:10,680
Speaker 1: their description. Theodore goes to the party that Many is

774
00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:13,960
Speaker 1: supposed to go to. He gets there at nine p thirty,

775
00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:17,200
Speaker 1: which is late for this party. So he shows up.

776
00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:20,200
Speaker 1: He doesn't know anything about Many. He's denying any of

777
00:42:20,239 --> 00:42:22,960
Speaker 1: it being involved with anybody. And that is that as

778
00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:25,640
Speaker 1: far as Theodore is concerned about Many at least, and

779
00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:27,040
Speaker 1: of course Blanche is still missing.

780
00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:30,799
Speaker 2: And do we know how long prior to Minnie's homicide

781
00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:34,040
Speaker 2: that Durant and her had a dating relationship.

782
00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:37,000
Speaker 1: Well, remember she had been gone for a year. Yeah,

783
00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:39,319
Speaker 1: so she was in Alameda, And I don't get the

784
00:42:39,320 --> 00:42:44,400
Speaker 1: impression that they were dating necessarily when she was in Alameda,

785
00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:47,799
Speaker 1: But it does sound like there could have been some crossover,

786
00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:52,600
Speaker 1: as in maybe Blanche and Mini had dated him around

787
00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:55,000
Speaker 1: about the same time. I don't know if there was

788
00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:57,840
Speaker 1: a little bit of a love triangle many might have

789
00:42:57,920 --> 00:43:00,400
Speaker 1: indicated before she went missing, like she was and had

790
00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:03,680
Speaker 1: been competing for this guy's affections. But the only thing

791
00:43:03,719 --> 00:43:06,680
Speaker 1: we know is the last interaction, if this is them

792
00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:09,600
Speaker 1: outside the church, was not a good interaction, and she

793
00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:13,880
Speaker 1: gets dragged inside. Now, the man who's the witness, Charles Hills,

794
00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:16,200
Speaker 1: and he has no reason, he's got no dog in

795
00:43:16,239 --> 00:43:18,480
Speaker 1: the fight, no reason to make that up. But what

796
00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:20,319
Speaker 1: do you think about him as a witness if he

797
00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:22,759
Speaker 1: doesn't actually he's not a parishoner, He doesn't actually know

798
00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:23,560
Speaker 1: these two people.

799
00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:26,440
Speaker 2: I don't doubt the statements that he's making. You know,

800
00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:31,440
Speaker 2: he's seeing what likely is many and probably her killer

801
00:43:31,480 --> 00:43:34,880
Speaker 2: standing outside getting into an argument, and then the killer

802
00:43:34,960 --> 00:43:38,160
Speaker 2: is dragging her into the church. Now, part of the

803
00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:41,000
Speaker 2: circumstances of Many is there was nothing to indicate that

804
00:43:41,040 --> 00:43:43,360
Speaker 2: she was planning on going to the church en route

805
00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:47,799
Speaker 2: to the youth party, right, you know, so that's you know,

806
00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:53,520
Speaker 2: why is she there and her killer is there by

807
00:43:53,560 --> 00:43:56,439
Speaker 2: the church and appears to utilize the church in order

808
00:43:56,480 --> 00:43:59,680
Speaker 2: to be able to get her inside, in order to

809
00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:01,399
Speaker 2: be a to assault and kill her.

810
00:44:02,239 --> 00:44:03,719
Speaker 3: Sounds like the killer.

811
00:44:03,760 --> 00:44:07,080
Speaker 2: Knows is familiar with the church, has access to the church,

812
00:44:07,640 --> 00:44:09,760
Speaker 2: knows that there isn't going to be anybody else inside

813
00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:13,240
Speaker 2: this church, and can isolate Many and accomplish a crime.

814
00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:17,960
Speaker 2: And of course Durant is somebody that fits that profile

815
00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:21,239
Speaker 2: of the killer. Now, doesn't sound like Charles Hill is

816
00:44:21,280 --> 00:44:25,480
Speaker 2: able to identify Durant as the man. This is not

817
00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:28,360
Speaker 2: a solid case against Durant just based off what Charles

818
00:44:28,440 --> 00:44:32,040
Speaker 2: Hill is saying, But it does raise suspicion that Durant

819
00:44:31,880 --> 00:44:36,960
Speaker 2: is possibly Many's killer, just in this day and age.

820
00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:41,000
Speaker 2: You know, in eighteen ninety five, if Many is coming

821
00:44:41,040 --> 00:44:45,359
Speaker 2: over to this church for Easter service, is there any

822
00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:49,000
Speaker 2: communication between Durant and her ahead of time? You know,

823
00:44:49,040 --> 00:44:52,240
Speaker 2: that's where the relationship. What is the status of the relationship.

824
00:44:52,840 --> 00:44:56,799
Speaker 2: How would that communication occur in eighteen ninety five that

825
00:44:56,840 --> 00:45:00,200
Speaker 2: investigators would be able to kind of go, oh, hold on,

826
00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:03,240
Speaker 2: Durant knew she was coming over to attend the service

827
00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:08,120
Speaker 2: for Easter, you know, so that gives Durant some knowledge.

828
00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:12,120
Speaker 2: And then how would Durant and many connect up en

829
00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:13,960
Speaker 2: route to the youth group. Well, if Durant goes to

830
00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:16,200
Speaker 2: the youth group at nine point thirty, he must have

831
00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:19,520
Speaker 2: had knowledge about this youth group party going on that

832
00:45:19,640 --> 00:45:24,920
Speaker 2: they happen to arrive outside of this party location. And

833
00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:29,480
Speaker 2: now Durant esteemed because he's seeing his former girlfriend and

834
00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:33,040
Speaker 2: they get into a conversation and you know, maybe walk

835
00:45:33,120 --> 00:45:35,919
Speaker 2: back towards the church to isolate away from the other

836
00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:39,400
Speaker 2: people attending the party, and then Durant takes advantage of

837
00:45:39,440 --> 00:45:40,799
Speaker 2: her being alone.

838
00:45:41,080 --> 00:45:44,560
Speaker 1: Yep, and we don't know yet. The circumstances are very murky.

839
00:45:44,719 --> 00:45:48,520
Speaker 1: And of course they wanted to talk to Theodore, and

840
00:45:48,560 --> 00:45:52,520
Speaker 1: they eventually track him down. His mom said that he

841
00:45:52,680 --> 00:45:55,759
Speaker 1: is in the signal Corps with the army. These are

842
00:45:55,760 --> 00:45:58,239
Speaker 1: the folks who still are in charge of communication for

843
00:45:58,320 --> 00:46:01,280
Speaker 1: the army. They left early that more for Mount Diablo,

844
00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:04,680
Speaker 1: and they track him down and again denies everything. The

845
00:46:04,760 --> 00:46:07,920
Speaker 1: mother defends him of course, and then we have to

846
00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:12,840
Speaker 1: think about Blanche, because now things get pretty weird. The

847
00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:16,960
Speaker 1: day that Many is found, which is that Saturday before Easter,

848
00:46:17,680 --> 00:46:21,440
Speaker 1: a package arrives in the mail at Blanche's aunt's house

849
00:46:21,480 --> 00:46:25,239
Speaker 1: where she is staying. Where Blanche is staying, and it's

850
00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:29,480
Speaker 1: got three rings that Blanche had been wearing the night

851
00:46:29,560 --> 00:46:33,160
Speaker 1: that she disappeared, which was ten to twelve days ago.

852
00:46:33,480 --> 00:46:36,759
Speaker 1: They are wrapped in newspaper. In the margin of the newspaper,

853
00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:39,440
Speaker 1: there are two names written in pencil. There are the

854
00:46:39,520 --> 00:46:43,640
Speaker 1: names of two male music teachers. And it sounds like

855
00:46:43,960 --> 00:46:47,840
Speaker 1: this is handwriting. That's not her nieces, according to the aunt.

856
00:46:48,560 --> 00:46:53,000
Speaker 1: So somebody has mailed these rings with the names of

857
00:46:53,080 --> 00:46:56,719
Speaker 1: these men onto the aunt's house, which is very odd

858
00:46:56,760 --> 00:46:58,759
Speaker 1: and mysterious. And I have no idea. That's all the

859
00:46:58,760 --> 00:47:01,520
Speaker 1: information I know about that. What would be the motivation,

860
00:47:01,800 --> 00:47:04,120
Speaker 1: because we have to assume it's the killer doing this,

861
00:47:04,640 --> 00:47:07,040
Speaker 1: what's the motivation for that? To frame up somebody?

862
00:47:07,080 --> 00:47:12,120
Speaker 2: Maybe, yeah, well to include those men's names, yeah, framing.

863
00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:16,160
Speaker 3: You know, this is misdirection, but it's also so obvious.

864
00:47:16,719 --> 00:47:20,160
Speaker 2: You know, it's like, come on, anybody would kind of go,

865
00:47:20,239 --> 00:47:23,719
Speaker 2: what's the likelihood the killer's sending his own name in

866
00:47:23,920 --> 00:47:27,440
Speaker 2: you know, the sending of the rings the offender is

867
00:47:27,640 --> 00:47:31,040
Speaker 2: proving I have Blanche. Doesn't sound like the offender is

868
00:47:31,040 --> 00:47:33,840
Speaker 2: communicating in any way to indicate that Blanche is dead.

869
00:47:34,040 --> 00:47:36,839
Speaker 2: Now is this a potential? I mean, you could see

870
00:47:36,840 --> 00:47:39,920
Speaker 2: where this is like setting up a ransom situation. I've

871
00:47:39,960 --> 00:47:43,000
Speaker 2: got Blanche, she's alive, I want money, et cetera. But

872
00:47:43,120 --> 00:47:45,960
Speaker 2: the communication doesn't have anything like that in there. It's

873
00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:50,239
Speaker 2: just these two men's names and they're music teachers, so

874
00:47:50,719 --> 00:47:53,520
Speaker 2: we know Blanche had an anchor point, you know, with

875
00:47:53,600 --> 00:47:57,600
Speaker 2: their victimology. She was music student. She's going to the

876
00:47:57,840 --> 00:48:01,959
Speaker 2: high school for class. Her other anchor point is the church.

877
00:48:02,239 --> 00:48:06,479
Speaker 2: So this could be classic misdirection by the offender by

878
00:48:06,520 --> 00:48:10,400
Speaker 2: including these men's name to where investigators know, okay, Blanche

879
00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:12,080
Speaker 2: has a connection there. Of course, they're going to be

880
00:48:12,160 --> 00:48:15,680
Speaker 2: putting their resources to now interview those men and see

881
00:48:15,800 --> 00:48:17,960
Speaker 2: do they have any knowledge of where Blanche is at

882
00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:20,759
Speaker 2: and what has happened to Blanche. So I think that

883
00:48:20,760 --> 00:48:23,680
Speaker 2: that's what's going on here. I think this is sort

884
00:48:23,719 --> 00:48:28,200
Speaker 2: of a staging a certain type of misdirections. You use

885
00:48:28,239 --> 00:48:31,600
Speaker 2: the term framing. That's what it sounds like to me,

886
00:48:32,160 --> 00:48:37,440
Speaker 2: So this is interesting. The offender had Blanche's address.

887
00:48:39,120 --> 00:48:42,320
Speaker 1: Luckily, the police don't fall for this, and they're convinced

888
00:48:42,480 --> 00:48:47,120
Speaker 1: that since Mini was found at the church, that Blanche,

889
00:48:47,480 --> 00:48:50,400
Speaker 1: if she's dead, and they're assuming that she is, is

890
00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:53,600
Speaker 1: probably at the church somewhere too. And they are under

891
00:48:53,680 --> 00:48:58,480
Speaker 1: tremendous pressure because Easter is coming and they need to

892
00:48:58,560 --> 00:49:02,440
Speaker 1: figure out what happened before some parishioner walks in and

893
00:49:02,480 --> 00:49:06,360
Speaker 1: finds Blanche potentially, and the church doesn't want to be

894
00:49:06,400 --> 00:49:08,239
Speaker 1: shut down, but they want to find Blanche at the

895
00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:13,359
Speaker 1: same time, so they just search everywhere. They make no

896
00:49:13,480 --> 00:49:19,760
Speaker 1: progress finding Blanche on Saturday. Very early on Sunday Easter,

897
00:49:20,239 --> 00:49:23,400
Speaker 1: the police make their way up to the bell tower,

898
00:49:23,520 --> 00:49:26,640
Speaker 1: which is called the Belfry, and this is where the

899
00:49:26,680 --> 00:49:30,440
Speaker 1: famous name comes from where some people might have heard

900
00:49:30,480 --> 00:49:32,680
Speaker 1: of this case I had. It's called the Demon in

901
00:49:32,719 --> 00:49:36,440
Speaker 1: the Belfry, and the way that this goes, you'll see why.

902
00:49:36,840 --> 00:49:39,640
Speaker 1: They make their way up to the top, and they

903
00:49:39,640 --> 00:49:42,319
Speaker 1: already make discoveries before they even get up there. They

904
00:49:42,400 --> 00:49:45,080
Speaker 1: are climbing into the rafters of the steeple and they

905
00:49:45,120 --> 00:49:49,880
Speaker 1: find all of Blanche's clothing except for her hat and

906
00:49:49,920 --> 00:49:53,480
Speaker 1: her shoes. The call On Post, which is a great newspaper,

907
00:49:53,840 --> 00:49:57,600
Speaker 1: says the corsets were tucked under the eaves of the steeple.

908
00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:00,839
Speaker 1: The dress skirt was whole, except it was split from

909
00:50:00,880 --> 00:50:04,120
Speaker 1: top to bottom. The waist was torn as if it

910
00:50:04,160 --> 00:50:07,399
Speaker 1: had been unbuttoned and then torn from the body through

911
00:50:07,440 --> 00:50:12,600
Speaker 1: the impatience. One sleeve was turned inside out. The undervest

912
00:50:12,760 --> 00:50:15,160
Speaker 1: was torn in three places as if it were wrenched

913
00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:17,480
Speaker 1: from the body. The drawers were torn in two and

914
00:50:17,520 --> 00:50:20,640
Speaker 1: stained with blood. The mate to the glove at the

915
00:50:20,680 --> 00:50:25,160
Speaker 1: girl's feet was not discovered. The door to the stairs

916
00:50:25,280 --> 00:50:27,919
Speaker 1: up to the steeple is missing its knob and its

917
00:50:27,960 --> 00:50:31,800
Speaker 1: lock plate. And of course up in the steeple area

918
00:50:31,920 --> 00:50:35,680
Speaker 1: there was dust usually and it was swept clean as

919
00:50:35,680 --> 00:50:40,080
Speaker 1: if something big had been dragged over it. No Blanche yet,

920
00:50:40,080 --> 00:50:42,440
Speaker 1: but they find Oliver clothes in their bloody and torn up.

921
00:50:42,760 --> 00:50:45,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not looking good for Blanche. So you mentioned

922
00:50:45,360 --> 00:50:47,040
Speaker 2: part of her clothing. What was the part of clothing

923
00:50:47,040 --> 00:50:48,000
Speaker 2: that was split open.

924
00:50:48,200 --> 00:50:51,040
Speaker 1: The dress skirt was whole, except it was split from

925
00:50:51,040 --> 00:50:51,840
Speaker 1: top to bottom.

926
00:50:52,200 --> 00:50:54,359
Speaker 2: Okay, so the stress skirt that is split from top

927
00:50:54,400 --> 00:50:57,239
Speaker 2: to bottom. That to me sounds like the offender has

928
00:50:57,280 --> 00:51:01,000
Speaker 2: taken a knife and has cut this. These sections motivated offenders,

929
00:51:01,000 --> 00:51:03,839
Speaker 2: they enjoy doing this with the knives.

930
00:51:04,080 --> 00:51:04,760
Speaker 3: You know, this.

931
00:51:05,040 --> 00:51:09,279
Speaker 2: Inflicts terror on the woman if she's conscious. They're purposely

932
00:51:09,400 --> 00:51:13,279
Speaker 2: doing this. They enjoy cutting the clothes off while the

933
00:51:13,320 --> 00:51:16,640
Speaker 2: woman is in absolute fear. And then of course this

934
00:51:17,000 --> 00:51:20,799
Speaker 2: tearing of the clothing almost this sexual frenzy that is

935
00:51:20,840 --> 00:51:23,840
Speaker 2: occurring as the offender is getting closer to closer to

936
00:51:23,880 --> 00:51:27,480
Speaker 2: be able to expose Blanche's body and then to be

937
00:51:27,560 --> 00:51:31,920
Speaker 2: able to engage in sexual acts with the victim. So

938
00:51:32,440 --> 00:51:37,600
Speaker 2: Blanche is dead somewhere obviously inside this church, you know. Now,

939
00:51:38,200 --> 00:51:41,960
Speaker 2: now we know, okay, this Baptist church is core.

940
00:51:41,880 --> 00:51:43,040
Speaker 3: To this case.

941
00:51:43,280 --> 00:51:48,520
Speaker 2: The offender is comfortable inside this church. Somehow sounds like

942
00:51:49,000 --> 00:51:52,840
Speaker 2: Lord many to get at least within proximity of the

943
00:51:52,960 --> 00:51:56,719
Speaker 2: church where many could be drug in. The question is is, now,

944
00:51:56,800 --> 00:52:01,080
Speaker 2: how does the offender get Blanche to the location. It's

945
00:52:01,080 --> 00:52:05,080
Speaker 2: not like the offender is able to knock Blanche over

946
00:52:05,120 --> 00:52:06,839
Speaker 2: the head, you know, in the middle of the day

947
00:52:06,960 --> 00:52:09,279
Speaker 2: and then sling her over the shoulder and walk over

948
00:52:09,360 --> 00:52:13,399
Speaker 2: to the church. So the offender has likely had an

949
00:52:13,440 --> 00:52:18,640
Speaker 2: interaction with Blanche. Blanche is comfortable enough with the offender

950
00:52:18,760 --> 00:52:21,480
Speaker 2: to go with the offender to get like many at

951
00:52:21,560 --> 00:52:24,520
Speaker 2: least within proximity of the church, where now the offender

952
00:52:24,520 --> 00:52:29,720
Speaker 2: can pull Blanche in or have her walk involuntarily into

953
00:52:29,760 --> 00:52:33,719
Speaker 2: his layer, so to speak. This is where again, Durant,

954
00:52:34,440 --> 00:52:35,439
Speaker 2: he's notching up.

955
00:52:35,800 --> 00:52:35,960
Speaker 3: Now.

956
00:52:36,000 --> 00:52:39,840
Speaker 2: I'm not saying he's the guy yet, relationship with both women.

957
00:52:40,280 --> 00:52:44,040
Speaker 2: He most certainly could probably convince both women to go

958
00:52:44,080 --> 00:52:46,879
Speaker 2: with him to within proximity of the church. He has

959
00:52:47,040 --> 00:52:50,760
Speaker 2: access to the church. I don't know about to the tower,

960
00:52:51,160 --> 00:52:53,960
Speaker 2: you know, but this is something where he most certainly

961
00:52:54,000 --> 00:52:57,799
Speaker 2: is comfortable with. So Durant is definitely in my mind

962
00:52:57,880 --> 00:53:01,239
Speaker 2: right now he's a prime suspect, but I need more

963
00:53:01,320 --> 00:53:03,520
Speaker 2: before I'm convinced he's the actual killer.

964
00:53:04,000 --> 00:53:09,040
Speaker 1: Well, they look through the belfry very closely, and finally

965
00:53:09,560 --> 00:53:14,080
Speaker 1: they find Blanche's body way up top. She has been strangled,

966
00:53:14,560 --> 00:53:18,680
Speaker 1: and police believe that the person who strangled her was

967
00:53:18,880 --> 00:53:21,640
Speaker 1: left handed. And it turns out that Theodora, in case

968
00:53:21,680 --> 00:53:26,640
Speaker 1: you're interested, is ambidextrous. Does that matter in strangulation? Is

969
00:53:26,680 --> 00:53:27,760
Speaker 1: there a dominant hand?

970
00:53:28,640 --> 00:53:33,440
Speaker 2: I don't see how they could reliably come to that conclusion.

971
00:53:33,480 --> 00:53:34,640
Speaker 3: They're stretching there.

972
00:53:35,280 --> 00:53:38,880
Speaker 1: Yeah. So they said that they believed that Blanche was

973
00:53:38,960 --> 00:53:41,759
Speaker 1: killed in the same room that Many was killed in,

974
00:53:41,800 --> 00:53:44,759
Speaker 1: which was several flights down because we're now in the

975
00:53:44,760 --> 00:53:47,799
Speaker 1: top of the church, but that she was dragged through

976
00:53:47,840 --> 00:53:51,120
Speaker 1: the church and up several flights of stairs. Later on,

977
00:53:51,280 --> 00:53:54,120
Speaker 1: Durrance defense team will say, well, he's tiny, and of

978
00:53:54,160 --> 00:53:57,520
Speaker 1: course the prosecutors will say, well, they're tiny too. Everybody

979
00:53:57,640 --> 00:54:00,600
Speaker 1: is small in this case. Let me tell you kind

980
00:54:00,640 --> 00:54:02,640
Speaker 1: of a little bit more here about the details of

981
00:54:02,680 --> 00:54:06,560
Speaker 1: the murder. This is what a police detective describes. About

982
00:54:06,600 --> 00:54:11,360
Speaker 1: sixty feet directly above where Minnie's body was discovered is

983
00:54:11,400 --> 00:54:16,160
Speaker 1: where Blanches. The body was stark naked Blanche. There was

984
00:54:16,200 --> 00:54:18,839
Speaker 1: not a stitch of clothing upon it or nearby. The

985
00:54:18,880 --> 00:54:22,080
Speaker 1: body was laid on its back as if for burial,

986
00:54:22,360 --> 00:54:25,800
Speaker 1: and no undertaker could have done it better, very dramatic.

987
00:54:26,239 --> 00:54:30,160
Speaker 1: The arms were crossed upon the breast, and limbs had

988
00:54:30,160 --> 00:54:33,719
Speaker 1: been placed close together and perfectly straight, and bits of

989
00:54:33,760 --> 00:54:37,319
Speaker 1: wood placed beneath them to keep them in position. And

990
00:54:37,320 --> 00:54:40,360
Speaker 1: the head lay straight but with the face turned slightly

991
00:54:40,400 --> 00:54:43,520
Speaker 1: to one side. And I will just say I normally,

992
00:54:43,800 --> 00:54:46,120
Speaker 1: before I talked to you a month or so ago,

993
00:54:46,200 --> 00:54:49,040
Speaker 1: I would say, oh, this is some religious something or other,

994
00:54:49,120 --> 00:54:52,200
Speaker 1: but obviously this is for transportation purposes, is what you've

995
00:54:52,200 --> 00:54:53,560
Speaker 1: told me, right, That's.

996
00:54:53,400 --> 00:54:57,480
Speaker 2: My initial thought, you know, in terms of how she's positioned.

997
00:54:58,000 --> 00:55:01,239
Speaker 2: You know, of course, there's you know, there's this phenomena

998
00:55:01,400 --> 00:55:03,399
Speaker 2: that some of these offenders do where they pose their

999
00:55:03,480 --> 00:55:06,080
Speaker 2: victims after death, you know, and so this is where

1000
00:55:06,120 --> 00:55:09,719
Speaker 2: really assessing, you know, is the way her body is,

1001
00:55:09,800 --> 00:55:12,759
Speaker 2: you know, like is she bound and contained so she

1002
00:55:12,800 --> 00:55:16,480
Speaker 2: could be easily transported, or is she posed in a

1003
00:55:16,640 --> 00:55:20,279
Speaker 2: maybe a symbolic way to the offender where he likes

1004
00:55:20,320 --> 00:55:22,680
Speaker 2: to look at her after death in a certain way.

1005
00:55:22,760 --> 00:55:25,200
Speaker 2: I don't know right now, but the fact that she's

1006
00:55:25,320 --> 00:55:28,640
Speaker 2: up sixty feet you know, in this tower, and it

1007
00:55:28,719 --> 00:55:31,800
Speaker 2: sounds like they're convinced that she was killed down below.

1008
00:55:32,680 --> 00:55:35,080
Speaker 2: The offenders going to need a transporter, and you know,

1009
00:55:35,440 --> 00:55:38,759
Speaker 2: bodies that are you know, there is such a thing

1010
00:55:38,800 --> 00:55:40,759
Speaker 2: as dead weight. It does feel heavy, even with a

1011
00:55:40,760 --> 00:55:45,160
Speaker 2: petite woman. I've used this example before. Is you think

1012
00:55:45,160 --> 00:55:47,320
Speaker 2: of let's say a petite woman that weighs one hundred pounds,

1013
00:55:47,480 --> 00:55:50,600
Speaker 2: small woman try to pick up one hundred pounds bag

1014
00:55:50,719 --> 00:55:56,360
Speaker 2: of concrete. Now imagine a floppy dead body that weighs

1015
00:55:56,400 --> 00:55:59,840
Speaker 2: the same. Even though it's this is a petite human,

1016
00:56:00,360 --> 00:56:04,200
Speaker 2: it still takes strength to do. And this is where

1017
00:56:04,239 --> 00:56:07,480
Speaker 2: offenders are going to package the bodies in order to

1018
00:56:07,520 --> 00:56:10,680
Speaker 2: aid them to be able to transport, especially carrying up

1019
00:56:10,800 --> 00:56:13,759
Speaker 2: you know, sixty feet worth of stairs, you know, to

1020
00:56:13,800 --> 00:56:17,200
Speaker 2: get to this isolated location. Now, the offender in this

1021
00:56:17,360 --> 00:56:21,200
Speaker 2: case takes the time to isolate Blanche's body. Why not

1022
00:56:21,360 --> 00:56:25,520
Speaker 2: Minnie's body? What happened in that case? Did somebody enter

1023
00:56:25,600 --> 00:56:28,400
Speaker 2: the church and the offender had to run off? It

1024
00:56:28,480 --> 00:56:30,320
Speaker 2: was like an interrupted scene.

1025
00:56:31,640 --> 00:56:36,600
Speaker 1: There is no evidence of stabbing or cut marks. There's

1026
00:56:36,760 --> 00:56:40,600
Speaker 1: a large carpenter's hatchet laying nearby, no blood stains on it.

1027
00:56:41,160 --> 00:56:44,160
Speaker 1: There is a tiny pool of blood stained below her

1028
00:56:44,239 --> 00:56:47,440
Speaker 1: mouth on the floor, but they don't find evidence that

1029
00:56:47,520 --> 00:56:50,800
Speaker 1: she's been hacked. She has been strangled. The belfry was

1030
00:56:50,840 --> 00:56:53,640
Speaker 1: a very cold place during this time, so you know,

1031
00:56:53,680 --> 00:56:56,840
Speaker 1: her body was well preserved, but decomposition was happening and

1032
00:56:56,880 --> 00:57:00,560
Speaker 1: she was starting to turn black. He is arrested at

1033
00:57:00,560 --> 00:57:02,480
Speaker 1: the foot of Mount Diablo, where he was with the

1034
00:57:02,520 --> 00:57:08,000
Speaker 1: signal Corps. They also find in his pants at his house,

1035
00:57:08,600 --> 00:57:12,240
Speaker 1: Mini's wallet. It's a purse, but it's really like a wallet.

1036
00:57:12,440 --> 00:57:14,640
Speaker 1: This is a you know, to me, the first really

1037
00:57:14,680 --> 00:57:18,080
Speaker 1: solid piece of evidence. He was very vague. He said, yes,

1038
00:57:18,120 --> 00:57:20,880
Speaker 1: I knew both women. Yes, I had been kind of

1039
00:57:21,000 --> 00:57:24,640
Speaker 1: involved romantically, but not really with both women. He was

1040
00:57:24,880 --> 00:57:27,640
Speaker 1: very squishy in the details about the timeline when he

1041
00:57:27,640 --> 00:57:30,800
Speaker 1: had last seen people. And the issue with Theodore is

1042
00:57:30,840 --> 00:57:34,080
Speaker 1: that he's a church leader, he's a medical student, dental student,

1043
00:57:34,280 --> 00:57:36,120
Speaker 1: he has a lot of friends. He comes from a

1044
00:57:36,200 --> 00:57:39,880
Speaker 1: quote unquote good family, ordinary guy. This comes out of

1045
00:57:40,040 --> 00:57:44,400
Speaker 1: nowhere for people in the church community, the Baptist community,

1046
00:57:44,840 --> 00:57:48,120
Speaker 1: as well as his family. Of course, he's not helpful

1047
00:57:48,240 --> 00:57:50,720
Speaker 1: with police. He just said, I mean, I've kind of

1048
00:57:50,720 --> 00:57:52,680
Speaker 1: seen both of these women around. I've kind of dated

1049
00:57:52,720 --> 00:57:56,680
Speaker 1: both of them around, but there is nothing that really

1050
00:57:56,720 --> 00:57:59,520
Speaker 1: locks him into both of these women. And one more

1051
00:57:59,560 --> 00:58:01,560
Speaker 1: point before where I ask you what you think so

1052
00:58:01,720 --> 00:58:06,959
Speaker 1: far is someone did see him on the day that

1053
00:58:07,280 --> 00:58:11,760
Speaker 1: Blanche was murdered coming out of the belfry and he

1054
00:58:11,800 --> 00:58:15,720
Speaker 1: looked sick, is what the person said. And he said

1055
00:58:16,120 --> 00:58:18,360
Speaker 1: that there was a gas leak up there and he

1056
00:58:18,400 --> 00:58:19,920
Speaker 1: had been trying to fix it and made him look

1057
00:58:19,960 --> 00:58:22,640
Speaker 1: really nauseous. But when he came down the stairs, the

1058
00:58:22,680 --> 00:58:24,880
Speaker 1: person who saw him said he looked like five shades

1059
00:58:24,920 --> 00:58:28,480
Speaker 1: of gray. So he is charged at this point, which

1060
00:58:28,800 --> 00:58:30,400
Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, you've got some people. I'm

1061
00:58:30,400 --> 00:58:32,520
Speaker 1: trying to think about the evidence here. You've got yes,

1062
00:58:32,800 --> 00:58:37,160
Speaker 1: you've got Blanche's wallet, You've got the romantic connection between them.

1063
00:58:37,600 --> 00:58:41,160
Speaker 1: He doesn't really have a great alibi during this time period.

1064
00:58:41,400 --> 00:58:44,920
Speaker 1: He matches a description of somebody getting on the streetcar

1065
00:58:45,040 --> 00:58:48,600
Speaker 1: with Blanche, matches a description of somebody arguing with many

1066
00:58:48,600 --> 00:58:51,000
Speaker 1: in front of the church. He comes to the party late.

1067
00:58:52,000 --> 00:58:54,040
Speaker 1: So I don't know, what do you think about this

1068
00:58:54,120 --> 00:58:54,720
Speaker 1: case so far?

1069
00:58:55,080 --> 00:58:59,360
Speaker 2: You know, the totality of the circumstantial evidence. You know

1070
00:58:59,440 --> 00:59:02,240
Speaker 2: you have witness is seeing him or identifying him as

1071
00:59:02,280 --> 00:59:06,120
Speaker 2: the man that has routinely been showing up when Blanche

1072
00:59:06,240 --> 00:59:10,000
Speaker 2: is getting out of the school, and he's seen getting

1073
00:59:10,080 --> 00:59:14,200
Speaker 2: onto the street car with Blanche the day she goes missing,

1074
00:59:15,120 --> 00:59:19,600
Speaker 2: So you have that connection, the connection to Minnie. You

1075
00:59:19,640 --> 00:59:23,480
Speaker 2: know he's dated both of them. You know, circumstantially this

1076
00:59:23,560 --> 00:59:26,520
Speaker 2: is adding up. He has access to both crime scene locations.

1077
00:59:26,560 --> 00:59:30,120
Speaker 2: He puts himself up in this very isolated location up

1078
00:59:30,160 --> 00:59:33,640
Speaker 2: in the tower, you know, and then the physical evidence

1079
00:59:33,640 --> 00:59:38,560
Speaker 2: of Minnie's purse being found with him. Everything about Durant

1080
00:59:38,640 --> 00:59:42,760
Speaker 2: is checking the box. And I think especially with Minnie's purse,

1081
00:59:42,800 --> 00:59:44,800
Speaker 2: because she hasn't been you know, this is where I

1082
00:59:44,800 --> 00:59:48,760
Speaker 2: would need to know more about, you know, the relationship

1083
00:59:48,800 --> 00:59:51,480
Speaker 2: and when he's saying he last saw her, and when

1084
00:59:51,640 --> 00:59:53,960
Speaker 2: you know, her family or her friends are saying she

1085
00:59:54,040 --> 00:59:56,520
Speaker 2: last saw him. You know, but why does he have

1086
00:59:56,520 --> 00:59:58,720
Speaker 2: her purse? I mean, that's not something she's just going

1087
00:59:58,800 --> 01:00:02,280
Speaker 2: to give him. That to me kind of pushes this

1088
01:00:02,440 --> 01:00:06,680
Speaker 2: over the edge where I think authorities have sufficient probable

1089
01:00:06,760 --> 01:00:08,640
Speaker 2: cause to arrest them. They still need to build a

1090
01:00:08,680 --> 01:00:11,800
Speaker 2: case eighteen ninety five. They're not going to have the

1091
01:00:11,880 --> 01:00:14,720
Speaker 2: DNA evidence. I guarantee there's DNA evidence in both of

1092
01:00:14,760 --> 01:00:18,320
Speaker 2: these cases, you know, but I think they could probably

1093
01:00:18,440 --> 01:00:21,440
Speaker 2: solidify this case before it goes to trial. Now you're

1094
01:00:21,440 --> 01:00:24,320
Speaker 2: probably going to give me some boomerang thing where you're

1095
01:00:24,320 --> 01:00:26,439
Speaker 2: going to make me second guess this, But right now,

1096
01:00:26,480 --> 01:00:28,640
Speaker 2: I think they got the right guy, you.

1097
01:00:28,640 --> 01:00:32,040
Speaker 1: Know, yeah, yeah, And now I think they got the

1098
01:00:32,120 --> 01:00:35,479
Speaker 1: right guy. Theodore is inconsistent. So he said, I haven't

1099
01:00:35,520 --> 01:00:37,720
Speaker 1: seen many in weeks. And then he says, well, I

1100
01:00:37,760 --> 01:00:40,160
Speaker 1: saw her a few days before she was murdered. And

1101
01:00:40,200 --> 01:00:42,960
Speaker 1: then he says I saw her that day. He doesn't

1102
01:00:42,960 --> 01:00:46,840
Speaker 1: have a good explanation for having her purse. And here's

1103
01:00:46,880 --> 01:00:51,600
Speaker 1: another kicker. The police track down witnesses and the owner

1104
01:00:51,640 --> 01:00:54,040
Speaker 1: of a pawnshop who said he's the guy who came

1105
01:00:54,080 --> 01:00:57,920
Speaker 1: in and tried to pawn one of Blanche's rings. He

1106
01:00:58,000 --> 01:01:00,800
Speaker 1: didn't buy the ring, and that's, you know, one of

1107
01:01:00,840 --> 01:01:03,400
Speaker 1: the three rings that was shipped off to Blanche's aunt.

1108
01:01:03,920 --> 01:01:07,480
Speaker 1: With the mysterious names of these music teachers of Blanche,

1109
01:01:07,520 --> 01:01:10,080
Speaker 1: it sounds like he wants to try to set them up.

1110
01:01:10,800 --> 01:01:13,600
Speaker 1: And so they charge him with first degree murder in

1111
01:01:13,680 --> 01:01:15,680
Speaker 1: Blanche's case. And I just want to put this in

1112
01:01:15,720 --> 01:01:19,600
Speaker 1: because I just think it's gross. They go with Blanche's murder,

1113
01:01:19,680 --> 01:01:23,080
Speaker 1: not with Minnie's murder or both of them, because they

1114
01:01:23,120 --> 01:01:25,520
Speaker 1: think that Blanche will be sympathetic. She came from a

1115
01:01:25,560 --> 01:01:29,080
Speaker 1: great family. Minnie was the child of divorce and she

1116
01:01:29,400 --> 01:01:31,880
Speaker 1: was a housekeeper, and they just didn't think that she

1117
01:01:32,000 --> 01:01:36,160
Speaker 1: was going to be a sympathetic victim. So Theodore's defense

1118
01:01:36,440 --> 01:01:38,720
Speaker 1: makes what I consider to be a pretty bonehead move,

1119
01:01:38,800 --> 01:01:42,080
Speaker 1: which is putting him on the stand. He was a

1120
01:01:42,200 --> 01:01:46,320
Speaker 1: terrible witness. He had contradicting stories, just like when he

1121
01:01:46,400 --> 01:01:49,640
Speaker 1: was interviewed by the police. He was contradicting himself about

1122
01:01:49,640 --> 01:01:52,360
Speaker 1: how serious he was with either woman, was there a

1123
01:01:52,400 --> 01:01:56,200
Speaker 1: love triangle when he saw them, Why he had Minnie's

1124
01:01:56,240 --> 01:01:58,880
Speaker 1: wallet and the rings and everything else. It does a

1125
01:01:58,880 --> 01:02:02,280
Speaker 1: lot more harm for him than good. And ultimately this

1126
01:02:02,400 --> 01:02:05,040
Speaker 1: is not going to be a shocker, Thank goodness. The

1127
01:02:05,120 --> 01:02:08,000
Speaker 1: jury takes twenty minutes and comes back with a guilty verdict,

1128
01:02:08,480 --> 01:02:11,320
Speaker 1: and he is sentenced to death, and he is executed

1129
01:02:11,760 --> 01:02:15,200
Speaker 1: at the age of twenty seven in eighteen ninety eight.

1130
01:02:15,680 --> 01:02:17,640
Speaker 1: And that is the end of the story of the

1131
01:02:17,720 --> 01:02:21,040
Speaker 1: Demon in the Belfry, which is a well known story.

1132
01:02:21,440 --> 01:02:24,800
Speaker 1: Unreal to me that this is the epicenter, this church

1133
01:02:25,160 --> 01:02:26,040
Speaker 1: for all of this.

1134
01:02:26,520 --> 01:02:30,920
Speaker 2: It is interesting from just assessing Durant as an offender.

1135
01:02:31,160 --> 01:02:36,200
Speaker 2: You know, these sexually motivated homicides. He's committing these homicides

1136
01:02:36,720 --> 01:02:41,560
Speaker 2: on women that he knows. However, you know, there does

1137
01:02:41,600 --> 01:02:44,680
Speaker 2: appear to be a level of fantasy involved. You know,

1138
01:02:44,800 --> 01:02:49,760
Speaker 2: he's predatory in some ways, him showing up outside of Blanches,

1139
01:02:50,080 --> 01:02:53,320
Speaker 2: you know, high school music class multiple times is almost

1140
01:02:53,360 --> 01:02:56,120
Speaker 2: like a grooming making her comfortable enough with him again

1141
01:02:56,520 --> 01:02:59,680
Speaker 2: to where he could possibly lure her back to the church.

1142
01:03:01,000 --> 01:03:03,480
Speaker 2: As well as what he did with with Many. You know,

1143
01:03:03,520 --> 01:03:07,320
Speaker 2: there was a component that where he could be angry

1144
01:03:07,360 --> 01:03:10,120
Speaker 2: with these two women they broke up with them possibly,

1145
01:03:10,280 --> 01:03:12,800
Speaker 2: you know, and now he's getting back at them. But

1146
01:03:13,440 --> 01:03:17,600
Speaker 2: this the use of the knife to split the skirt,

1147
01:03:18,240 --> 01:03:23,840
Speaker 2: the stuffing the undergarments into Many's mouth, kind of the

1148
01:03:23,840 --> 01:03:27,400
Speaker 2: the way you know, he's in a frenzy kind of

1149
01:03:27,440 --> 01:03:31,320
Speaker 2: tearing off these women's clothing in order to get access

1150
01:03:31,320 --> 01:03:33,960
Speaker 2: to their bodies. It just speaks to me that he's

1151
01:03:34,120 --> 01:03:37,200
Speaker 2: he's had a he's got a fantasy aspect to him,

1152
01:03:37,640 --> 01:03:41,120
Speaker 2: and likely that was something that he had prior you know,

1153
01:03:41,600 --> 01:03:45,400
Speaker 2: this just didn't happen. He's been kind of fantasizing about

1154
01:03:45,520 --> 01:03:50,400
Speaker 2: this and he figured out, well, the victims that he

1155
01:03:50,440 --> 01:03:53,200
Speaker 2: can start with were women that he knew, that he

1156
01:03:53,240 --> 01:03:55,720
Speaker 2: knew he could lure to the location that he had

1157
01:03:55,800 --> 01:03:59,160
Speaker 2: access to where nobody else would be. Something happened with

1158
01:03:59,320 --> 01:04:02,600
Speaker 2: Miny's case where now he's he's doing the Oh shit,

1159
01:04:02,720 --> 01:04:05,320
Speaker 2: I better get to the youth group party. And he's

1160
01:04:05,400 --> 01:04:08,720
Speaker 2: leaving many in essence and playing view versus hiding her

1161
01:04:08,800 --> 01:04:12,960
Speaker 2: up in the tower like Blanche. So something spooped him.

1162
01:04:13,240 --> 01:04:16,120
Speaker 2: If that didn't happen, I would not be surprised if

1163
01:04:16,160 --> 01:04:19,080
Speaker 2: a third woman would have gone missing in short order.

1164
01:04:19,440 --> 01:04:21,680
Speaker 1: Well, I'll tell you something that's interesting before we leave

1165
01:04:21,720 --> 01:04:24,600
Speaker 1: this story. What I had been thinking about is all

1166
01:04:24,680 --> 01:04:27,560
Speaker 1: the witnesses say she got on this streetcar. Blanche got

1167
01:04:27,560 --> 01:04:30,640
Speaker 1: on the streetcar at three fifteen pm. There's no way

1168
01:04:30,680 --> 01:04:33,400
Speaker 1: he would have done this at the church, let's say

1169
01:04:33,440 --> 01:04:38,040
Speaker 1: twenty minutes later, an hour later. What happened between three

1170
01:04:38,160 --> 01:04:41,280
Speaker 1: fifteen pm when both of them got onto the streetcar

1171
01:04:42,000 --> 01:04:44,080
Speaker 1: and everything seemed okay, So when he even said they'd

1172
01:04:44,080 --> 01:04:46,600
Speaker 1: seemed to be kind of flirting. What happened between three

1173
01:04:46,600 --> 01:04:49,600
Speaker 1: point fifteen and whenever he felt like he had enough

1174
01:04:49,640 --> 01:04:53,640
Speaker 1: privacy in the library of this Baptist church. It had

1175
01:04:53,640 --> 01:04:56,240
Speaker 1: to have been at night. What happened in this time period?

1176
01:04:56,280 --> 01:04:57,840
Speaker 1: Where did they go? What did they do?

1177
01:04:58,400 --> 01:05:00,480
Speaker 2: Well, you know, I'm not entirely sure it has to

1178
01:05:00,480 --> 01:05:02,320
Speaker 2: be at night. It depends on you know, who else

1179
01:05:02,320 --> 01:05:05,120
Speaker 2: would have access to the church, you know, in the afternoon.

1180
01:05:05,760 --> 01:05:09,480
Speaker 2: But you think about it. If he's trying to rekindle

1181
01:05:09,480 --> 01:05:11,920
Speaker 2: a relationship with Blanch, or at least under the guise

1182
01:05:11,960 --> 01:05:14,880
Speaker 2: of doing that, and she's somewhat flirting back with him,

1183
01:05:14,880 --> 01:05:17,480
Speaker 2: maybe I should, you know, look at getting back together

1184
01:05:17,520 --> 01:05:18,440
Speaker 2: with my old boyfriend.

1185
01:05:18,480 --> 01:05:18,840
Speaker 3: Whatever.

1186
01:05:19,200 --> 01:05:21,320
Speaker 2: Maybe they just got off and ate at a restaurant

1187
01:05:21,400 --> 01:05:23,560
Speaker 2: and hung out and talked and then he says, hey,

1188
01:05:23,720 --> 01:05:25,680
Speaker 2: you know, I want to show you something cool back

1189
01:05:25,720 --> 01:05:26,800
Speaker 2: at the church, you know.

1190
01:05:28,280 --> 01:05:30,560
Speaker 3: Whatever ruse he used.

1191
01:05:31,000 --> 01:05:34,320
Speaker 2: But it sure sounds like yeah, And I'd be kind

1192
01:05:34,320 --> 01:05:36,320
Speaker 2: of curious to see what the source of the knife is.

1193
01:05:36,800 --> 01:05:41,160
Speaker 2: You know, is this something that he had ready access

1194
01:05:41,200 --> 01:05:43,920
Speaker 2: to just inside the church, or was this something that

1195
01:05:44,000 --> 01:05:47,720
Speaker 2: he would have had on his person, possibly showing a

1196
01:05:47,840 --> 01:05:50,480
Speaker 2: level of premeditation that he was going to use the

1197
01:05:50,560 --> 01:05:54,800
Speaker 2: knife on Blanche. He's most certainly cutting the clothing, at

1198
01:05:54,920 --> 01:05:57,040
Speaker 2: least part of the clothing off of Blant, so I

1199
01:05:57,040 --> 01:06:00,200
Speaker 2: think there's a knife being used. He strangles Blanche, but

1200
01:06:00,240 --> 01:06:03,240
Speaker 2: then he uses the knife on Many. It's interesting the

1201
01:06:03,320 --> 01:06:07,840
Speaker 2: change from strangulation to the stabbing could be due to circumstances.

1202
01:06:07,960 --> 01:06:12,080
Speaker 2: Many fought more than Blanche. Possibly, Yeah, who knows, you know,

1203
01:06:12,560 --> 01:06:16,400
Speaker 2: but maybe he didn't have the nerve to use a

1204
01:06:16,480 --> 01:06:19,320
Speaker 2: knife with Blanche before the second one he does.

1205
01:06:19,600 --> 01:06:19,800
Speaker 3: You know.

1206
01:06:20,000 --> 01:06:22,640
Speaker 2: It's kind of an evolution in terms of his psychology

1207
01:06:23,200 --> 01:06:25,840
Speaker 2: as he's gaining experience as a predator.

1208
01:06:27,800 --> 01:06:30,360
Speaker 1: Well, there you go. What a story. I'm glad that

1209
01:06:30,360 --> 01:06:33,040
Speaker 1: these two women got justice. I'm so sorry about the

1210
01:06:33,080 --> 01:06:36,320
Speaker 1: way their lives ended and all of this. They're just

1211
01:06:36,760 --> 01:06:40,920
Speaker 1: going to church, you know, being there and feeling good

1212
01:06:40,960 --> 01:06:44,080
Speaker 1: about being there and both of them and then they

1213
01:06:44,120 --> 01:06:46,680
Speaker 1: meet a predatory. You know. I hope to have a

1214
01:06:46,720 --> 01:06:51,160
Speaker 1: story next week that hopefully we'll have the same type

1215
01:06:51,200 --> 01:06:55,680
Speaker 1: of justice here, but I can't guarantee it. Paul, you know,

1216
01:06:55,880 --> 01:07:01,080
Speaker 1: I throker balls, you know, true him. It doesn't end

1217
01:07:01,120 --> 01:07:04,160
Speaker 1: happily often. So hopefully we'll have another good story for you.

1218
01:07:04,200 --> 01:07:04,840
Speaker 1: I know we will.

1219
01:07:05,240 --> 01:07:08,400
Speaker 2: Okay, Yeah, this was This was a great story. I

1220
01:07:08,400 --> 01:07:10,560
Speaker 2: appreciate you sharing it. I had never heard of it before,

1221
01:07:10,600 --> 01:07:12,040
Speaker 2: so now I'm informed.

1222
01:07:12,400 --> 01:07:14,240
Speaker 1: There you go. Okay, I see you next week.

1223
01:07:14,440 --> 01:07:15,240
Speaker 3: Sounds good. Thank you.

1224
01:07:20,120 --> 01:07:23,400
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production for our sources

1225
01:07:23,440 --> 01:07:26,960
Speaker 1: and show notes go to Exactlyrightmedia dot com, slash Buried

1226
01:07:27,000 --> 01:07:30,600
Speaker 1: Bones sources, Our Senior producer is Alexis Emrosi.

1227
01:07:30,880 --> 01:07:35,120
Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin and Kate Winkler Dawson.

1228
01:07:35,360 --> 01:07:37,640
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

1229
01:07:37,960 --> 01:07:40,240
Speaker 3: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

1230
01:07:40,480 --> 01:07:42,520
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

1231
01:07:42,760 --> 01:07:46,920
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgariff, Georgia hard Stark, and Daniel Kramer.

1232
01:07:47,200 --> 01:07:50,560
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

1233
01:07:50,800 --> 01:07:51,440
Speaker 1: Ary Bones.

1234
01:07:51,520 --> 01:07:54,440
Speaker 2: Pod. Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a

1235
01:07:54,480 --> 01:07:56,760
Speaker 2: Gilded Age story of murder and the race to decode

1236
01:07:56,800 --> 01:07:59,080
Speaker 2: the criminal mind, is available now, and

1237
01:07:59,200 --> 01:08:03,960
Speaker 1: Paul's best saeling memoir, Unmasked, My life Solving America's Cold Cases,

1238
01:08:04,160 --> 01:08:05,320
Speaker 1: is also available now