1 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:06,760 Speaker 1: Quody balance with Joseph's gotten More my Lord. I love history. 2 00:00:08,160 --> 00:00:09,960 Speaker 1: If I thought that I could have made a living 3 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:14,560 Speaker 1: at it, I think my dream job probably would have 4 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:20,920 Speaker 1: been to have been a history professor. Nowadays, there's just 5 00:00:22,400 --> 00:00:27,760 Speaker 1: too much politics attached to it. But I love going 6 00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:35,760 Speaker 1: to historic sites because you go there and you see things, 7 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:40,360 Speaker 1: and it breathes life into those that are long since deead. 8 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:43,159 Speaker 1: A few years ago, I had an opportunity for the 9 00:00:43,320 --> 00:00:48,040 Speaker 1: very first time in my adult life to visit Philadelphia, 10 00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:54,560 Speaker 1: and the reason I really wanted to go was all 11 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:59,640 Speaker 1: about Ben Franklin. He's probably my favorite character from American history. 12 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:03,240 Speaker 1: Just I love his story. I love the fact that 13 00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:06,120 Speaker 1: he was living on the streets in the freezing cold 14 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:09,880 Speaker 1: in Boston and then in Philly, and he just kind 15 00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:12,240 Speaker 1: of set his own rules man lived his life. But 16 00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:14,679 Speaker 1: you know, one of the most interesting things that I 17 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:19,679 Speaker 1: saw in Philly was not I don't know, Constitutional Hall 18 00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:24,360 Speaker 1: or you know, or even the Liberty Bell, which was 19 00:01:24,440 --> 00:01:26,800 Speaker 1: kind of cool, you know. The coolest thing I saw 20 00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:31,760 Speaker 1: was the site of Ben Franklin's Privy, which I was 21 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:34,920 Speaker 1: fascinated by. And actually it's just a big block of 22 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:40,600 Speaker 1: stone that says that Ben Franklin's privy was here, and 23 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:45,440 Speaker 1: privy for those that don't know, that's essentially the outhouse. 24 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:52,320 Speaker 1: But what they did when they excavated that spot, they 25 00:01:52,360 --> 00:01:56,200 Speaker 1: found all manner of items. And there's actually a display 26 00:01:56,240 --> 00:02:01,240 Speaker 1: case that actually shows these items that were pulled from 27 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:04,640 Speaker 1: the privy of this brilliant man. And I don't know 28 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:08,160 Speaker 1: one side forgive me for being coarse here. I thought 29 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:12,200 Speaker 1: how many thoughts did he have during those periods of 30 00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:16,480 Speaker 1: time when he felt nature's call and he's sitting out 31 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:20,800 Speaker 1: there in the cold, but just considering life. But you 32 00:02:20,840 --> 00:02:26,560 Speaker 1: know it contained within that privy were bits of evidence 33 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:35,560 Speaker 1: of life, porcelain dolls, broken crockery and pottery, utensils, buttons, 34 00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:40,520 Speaker 1: just tons of stuff. Can you imagine? And there are 35 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:43,000 Speaker 1: people that do this, that go out and dig up 36 00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:49,040 Speaker 1: all privies and dig through and try to find what 37 00:02:49,240 --> 00:02:52,760 Speaker 1: still remains. It's a great area to preserve things in. 38 00:02:53,520 --> 00:03:00,760 Speaker 1: But you know, recently there was a fine in a 39 00:03:01,160 --> 00:03:04,760 Speaker 1: not too dissimilar from a privy, an old abandoned will 40 00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:10,120 Speaker 1: where something else was found, something that goes back years 41 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:17,000 Speaker 1: and years. Matter of fact, it was a person and 42 00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:22,360 Speaker 1: our dear friends at Authorm Labs helped solve a one 43 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:29,920 Speaker 1: hundred year plus mystery. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this 44 00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:37,240 Speaker 1: is body Bags. You know, Dave, I went to Philly 45 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:39,600 Speaker 1: for the very first time. A place I have never been, 46 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:42,160 Speaker 1: and I've had many friends up there that have asked 47 00:03:42,200 --> 00:03:44,840 Speaker 1: me to come is Canada. I've never been to Canada. 48 00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:47,120 Speaker 1: There are few sites that I've always wanted to go to. 49 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:50,840 Speaker 1: I've always wanted to go to see Quebec City, which 50 00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 1: is like this. It's upriver from Montreal. It's like one 51 00:03:56,720 --> 00:03:59,720 Speaker 1: of the original settlements that the French had up there. 52 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:01,800 Speaker 1: Thing it is supposed to This place is so beautiful, 53 00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:05,680 Speaker 1: cobblestone streets, it's it's high and bluffs and it's literally 54 00:04:05,720 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 1: like stepping back in tom But I got to tell you, 55 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:13,880 Speaker 1: I've never been. I've never the town of Saskatoon, in 56 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:19,240 Speaker 1: says Catchewan, has never been on my bucket list. But boy, Dave, 57 00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:23,480 Speaker 1: did they find something interesting down an old well in Sassic. 58 00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:24,479 Speaker 2: Funny. 59 00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:28,400 Speaker 3: You know, you get these guys that are working at 60 00:04:28,440 --> 00:04:31,839 Speaker 3: the site of where a hotel had been, and they're 61 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:35,800 Speaker 3: clearing it out to build something else, and they come 62 00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:40,040 Speaker 3: across an old well and they start digging, and in 63 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:42,920 Speaker 3: the well, not all the way at the bottom, but 64 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:47,480 Speaker 3: in the well they find a barrel and the barrel 65 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:48,120 Speaker 3: is hung up. 66 00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:48,800 Speaker 2: And so. 67 00:04:50,839 --> 00:04:53,680 Speaker 3: I don't know the process that construction workers go through 68 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:56,240 Speaker 3: when they find something like this, yeah, but I do 69 00:04:56,360 --> 00:05:00,000 Speaker 3: know that they don't just start willy nilly knocking stuff down. 70 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 3: They are aware that this could mean something, so they 71 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:10,160 Speaker 3: stop and they reach out. Sure enough, inside this barrel 72 00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:16,320 Speaker 3: in two thousand and six is a burlap bag, and 73 00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:19,559 Speaker 3: again burlap bag inside a barrel that's down a well, 74 00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:26,720 Speaker 3: and inside the burlap bag the well preserved remains of 75 00:05:26,760 --> 00:05:32,279 Speaker 3: a female. As they start looking at this, they're going, Okay, 76 00:05:32,279 --> 00:05:35,640 Speaker 3: this is not recent, all right, now, I don't know, 77 00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:38,200 Speaker 3: and I'm hoping you can fill me in here, because 78 00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:41,400 Speaker 3: my first thought was if I'm a construction guy and 79 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:46,280 Speaker 3: you've got decomposed remains. Now when we say fairly well preserved, 80 00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:49,840 Speaker 3: for the fact that they are fairly decomposed, you know, 81 00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:53,479 Speaker 3: I'm just wondering, how do you come to how old 82 00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:55,520 Speaker 3: are these remains? I mean, am I looking at something 83 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:58,400 Speaker 3: that even if it's all bones, there's still some clothing 84 00:05:58,480 --> 00:06:00,560 Speaker 3: and hair and there's all kinds of things in here. 85 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:01,160 Speaker 2: And I'm just. 86 00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:04,839 Speaker 3: Wondering, where do you start. Where do you start with 87 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:06,080 Speaker 3: a body in a well, Joe? 88 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:11,200 Speaker 1: You start with a barrel, I think. And okay, let 89 00:06:11,200 --> 00:06:14,520 Speaker 1: me ask you. Let me ask you a question. When's 90 00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:23,720 Speaker 1: the last time you actually came across a barrel that 91 00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:27,400 Speaker 1: other than former whiskey barrels that have been from Jack 92 00:06:27,480 --> 00:06:30,039 Speaker 1: Daniel's distillery or whatever that had been cut into and 93 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:32,960 Speaker 1: people and they've got that great bourbon smell to them inside, 94 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:36,320 Speaker 1: and people use them as planters in their yard. I 95 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:42,279 Speaker 1: got to confess something I've never seen, like a barrel 96 00:06:42,680 --> 00:06:45,680 Speaker 1: for utility at this stage in my life. I think 97 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:48,240 Speaker 1: I recall seeing them and they were really old when 98 00:06:48,279 --> 00:06:50,600 Speaker 1: I saw them when I was a kid in a 99 00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:52,839 Speaker 1: feed store that my grandpa used to go to that 100 00:06:52,880 --> 00:06:54,440 Speaker 1: I would go, you know, we'd buy stuff for his 101 00:06:54,520 --> 00:06:58,520 Speaker 1: horses and his mules and whatnot. I'd seen them there. 102 00:06:59,120 --> 00:07:05,560 Speaker 1: But they have there's a particular way that barrels were 103 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:10,880 Speaker 1: manufactured and made. I'm assuming that there is some type 104 00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:15,520 Speaker 1: of identifying mark on this thing somewhere, and we have 105 00:07:15,640 --> 00:07:22,320 Speaker 1: to also assume that it was essentially cobble together with nails, 106 00:07:22,760 --> 00:07:26,360 Speaker 1: all right, and you've probably got two bands that go 107 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:28,680 Speaker 1: around the outside to kind of hold it in here. 108 00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:31,880 Speaker 1: This wood has been specially treated to form it into 109 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:35,680 Speaker 1: a barrel like shape. These things are not These things 110 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:38,680 Speaker 1: are not like straight up and down like a perfect cylinder. 111 00:07:39,320 --> 00:07:44,320 Speaker 1: They have almost like a bowfin construction to them. I 112 00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:48,360 Speaker 1: say bowfen. That's a ballistic reference to the way projectiles 113 00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:50,880 Speaker 1: are actually shaped, where it kind of tapers at the end, 114 00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:54,320 Speaker 1: but this tapers on the top. Was the lid still there? 115 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:57,080 Speaker 1: Because those are going to have nails in it, you know, 116 00:07:57,080 --> 00:07:59,000 Speaker 1: And that's the way, you know. I guess they could 117 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:02,120 Speaker 1: use wooden pegs, but I think that by the time 118 00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:05,040 Speaker 1: and we're going to get to time here, by the 119 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:09,559 Speaker 1: time this period rolls around, you're going to be using 120 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:12,080 Speaker 1: probably iron nails in here. You're not going to be 121 00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:18,240 Speaker 1: using aluminum nails. And I'm fascinated by this, the ability 122 00:08:18,520 --> 00:08:27,120 Speaker 1: for something, particularly something that is organic like this a 123 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:30,960 Speaker 1: human remain, that it would still it would be this 124 00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:34,800 Speaker 1: well preserved in this environment. And not only that, I 125 00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:37,240 Speaker 1: was thinking about something else that you said. You said 126 00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:41,280 Speaker 1: that the barrel had not gone all the way down. 127 00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:47,080 Speaker 1: The measurement that they give is actually two meters down, 128 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:50,000 Speaker 1: and for those that don't work. In the metric system, 129 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:55,360 Speaker 1: two meters is essentially just over six feet in depth, 130 00:08:56,160 --> 00:08:59,440 Speaker 1: so I'm roughly six feet It all depends on which 131 00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:01,480 Speaker 1: liquor store walking out of. You know, they catch me 132 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:03,800 Speaker 1: on the camera with the you know, with the measuring 133 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:06,400 Speaker 1: tape at the door. You know, they're that's a joke 134 00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:10,400 Speaker 1: in certain laughter here laugh track. But anyway, when you 135 00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:15,320 Speaker 1: when you walk out six feet tall, I don't know, 136 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:18,240 Speaker 1: not necessarily an advertised man, but it ain't it ain't 137 00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:18,760 Speaker 1: that deep. 138 00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:20,599 Speaker 3: A lot of guys in the working out of a 139 00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:23,880 Speaker 3: liquor store, Joe are ten feet tall and bulletproof. So yeah, 140 00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:28,240 Speaker 3: they say, yeah, yeah, it is kind of they're only 141 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:30,640 Speaker 3: talking is six feet down the well a barrow with 142 00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:37,199 Speaker 3: a body inside. Obviously somebody did not want this body found, right, Yeah, 143 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:39,679 Speaker 3: And they were successful enough that it's two thousand and 144 00:09:39,679 --> 00:09:41,880 Speaker 3: six before we even know there is a body and 145 00:09:41,880 --> 00:09:43,480 Speaker 3: they have to call an excavation team out. 146 00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:46,240 Speaker 2: That's the part they got me where does not even begin? 147 00:09:46,760 --> 00:09:49,240 Speaker 1: I think it got lodged. And I'd also like to 148 00:09:49,240 --> 00:09:52,359 Speaker 1: know something that has not been revealed is the composition 149 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:54,840 Speaker 1: of the walls of this thing, if they are, if 150 00:09:54,880 --> 00:10:00,800 Speaker 1: there is like almost maybe I it could be brick 151 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:06,240 Speaker 1: or maybe cobblestone that is built in a cylinder essentially 152 00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:09,360 Speaker 1: around you know, Dave, this is my thought. We need 153 00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:12,560 Speaker 1: to know the diameter of the well itself to get 154 00:10:12,559 --> 00:10:14,880 Speaker 1: an idea, and you know, we kind of got it 155 00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:18,080 Speaker 1: in our mind. I think I wonder, I really wonder 156 00:10:18,200 --> 00:10:20,400 Speaker 1: if the thing had been lower in the well over 157 00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:24,480 Speaker 1: the years and as a water table rose, that maybe 158 00:10:24,559 --> 00:10:29,439 Speaker 1: it floated up and then got here's a technical term here, 159 00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:32,840 Speaker 1: wampy jawed in there and got you know, kind of 160 00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:36,679 Speaker 1: in a diagonal diagonal posture, and maybe it was caught 161 00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:39,880 Speaker 1: on one end and the top end it kind of 162 00:10:39,920 --> 00:10:44,400 Speaker 1: got wedged, and maybe the water water table never rose 163 00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:47,319 Speaker 1: high again enough and receded enough to bring it down 164 00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:50,600 Speaker 1: to the bottom. These are fascinating perspectives, and yeah, you 165 00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:54,520 Speaker 1: know you're right when you when you find something like 166 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:57,000 Speaker 1: this and a tip of the cap to the to 167 00:10:57,040 --> 00:11:01,800 Speaker 1: the construction workers that they stopped. I got to tell you, 168 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:04,200 Speaker 1: I'm going to chase a rabbit here just for a second, 169 00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:08,959 Speaker 1: please indulge me. But the one of the most on 170 00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:12,800 Speaker 1: tragic stories I think that is from around the area 171 00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:17,280 Speaker 1: where we live in the community of Oxford, Alabama, is 172 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:20,679 Speaker 1: when they were building a strip mall, and you probably 173 00:11:20,720 --> 00:11:25,520 Speaker 1: remember this story. They went into an area behind where 174 00:11:25,520 --> 00:11:29,640 Speaker 1: the strip mall is being torn down. They never consulted 175 00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:35,800 Speaker 1: an archaeologist, and they remember they tore in to the hill, 176 00:11:36,040 --> 00:11:38,200 Speaker 1: I mean, cut this thing and this thing is massive, 177 00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:40,680 Speaker 1: cut the thing in half, and they it was a 178 00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:46,360 Speaker 1: Native American mound. Can you imagine that? And so you know, 179 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:51,040 Speaker 1: retrospectively the Creek nation, who you know, essentially occupied this area. 180 00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:54,360 Speaker 1: They're kind of upset about this, you know, and no 181 00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:57,840 Speaker 1: telling how many ancestral remains artifacts. It would have been 182 00:11:57,880 --> 00:11:59,839 Speaker 1: really rich. You could learn a lot about the area 183 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:03,040 Speaker 1: that's gone. Man, So now you've got it. You're using 184 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:05,559 Speaker 1: this as backfield dirt so that you can build a 185 00:12:05,679 --> 00:12:09,640 Speaker 1: Ross's or TJ Max or target, which all exists in 186 00:12:09,679 --> 00:12:12,720 Speaker 1: this mall, the strip mall. Was it really worth it? 187 00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:14,520 Speaker 1: I mean, couldn't you have taken it? Couldn't you brought 188 00:12:14,520 --> 00:12:18,240 Speaker 1: dirt in from somewhere else? But in this case they 189 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:22,040 Speaker 1: actually paused and said, you know what, we probably need 190 00:12:22,040 --> 00:12:24,839 Speaker 1: to get hold of the authorities. There's probably going to 191 00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:26,640 Speaker 1: have to be an archaeologist that's going to come out 192 00:12:26,679 --> 00:12:32,280 Speaker 1: there and low and behold, that's what happened, Dave anthropologist. 193 00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:33,400 Speaker 2: I liked it. 194 00:12:33,640 --> 00:12:35,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, I know, isn't that cool? Yeah? And this guy, 195 00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:38,959 Speaker 1: this guy is actually pretty written out. He's he's been 196 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:41,040 Speaker 1: practicing for a long time. He's been at the University 197 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:44,520 Speaker 1: of Saskatchewan for a protracted period of time. They've got 198 00:12:44,559 --> 00:12:48,240 Speaker 1: a lot of Indigenous remains that he examines. But he's 199 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:55,280 Speaker 1: a forensic anthropologist, so he's handling also homicide cases, you know, 200 00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:59,680 Speaker 1: burned bodies, buried bodies, clandestine graves, all these sorts of things, 201 00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:03,240 Speaker 1: all through that region and probably all over Canada. I mean, 202 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:06,000 Speaker 1: this guy, Dave. This guy got his phc in nineteen 203 00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:08,640 Speaker 1: seventy nine. He's been in the field for a little 204 00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:11,200 Speaker 1: while right now. 205 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:12,880 Speaker 2: Okay, his name is Ernie Walker. 206 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:15,400 Speaker 3: And the first thing I thought of, Joe was when 207 00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:18,240 Speaker 3: you ex Okay, we were talking one day on the 208 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:23,720 Speaker 3: show about how you find a forensic anthropologist or a 209 00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:26,960 Speaker 3: person of this expertise because the police just don't have 210 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:29,760 Speaker 3: him in a rolodex. You know, you don't know it 211 00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:31,920 Speaker 3: makes it you think they do. I mean I did 212 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:33,200 Speaker 3: until you told me they didn't. 213 00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:35,199 Speaker 2: I really did. I thought I just kind of assume 214 00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:36,400 Speaker 2: there's you know. 215 00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:40,199 Speaker 1: Let me see. No, I just didn't know that it 216 00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:44,160 Speaker 1: was allowed me to redirect. Yeah, okay, I no, no, no, no. 217 00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:47,080 Speaker 1: This is and people don't understand this. I tell my 218 00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:50,280 Speaker 1: kids all the time at university. Look, when you get 219 00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:53,120 Speaker 1: out into practice, you need to identify where there is 220 00:13:53,160 --> 00:13:58,680 Speaker 1: a forensic odentologist, a dentist, forensic anthropologist, a forensic entomologist, 221 00:13:58,920 --> 00:14:02,240 Speaker 1: because it's like you don't want to have the need 222 00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:04,920 Speaker 1: for one of these people on the day that you 223 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:09,040 Speaker 1: discover something you need to go out and buy them coffee. 224 00:14:09,679 --> 00:14:12,920 Speaker 1: You know, when you settle into your desk and establish 225 00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:15,520 Speaker 1: a relationship with them, say hey, doc, you know what 226 00:14:15,679 --> 00:14:18,640 Speaker 1: we might need you at some point in time. Can 227 00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:21,640 Speaker 1: I get your contact information? Just can we develop a 228 00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:25,000 Speaker 1: relationship and I you know, Saskatoon is a rather large 229 00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:29,320 Speaker 1: city by Canadian standards. It's up in an isolated area, 230 00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:35,320 Speaker 1: but rather isolated. But you know, you've got this guy 231 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:38,720 Speaker 1: that's there, he has availability, You're going to want to 232 00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:42,840 Speaker 1: bring him in on this because, let's face it, you 233 00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:46,600 Speaker 1: can have all the forensic pathologists that you want, all right, 234 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:51,440 Speaker 1: but when you're talking about human remains that have been 235 00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:55,800 Speaker 1: down there for I don't know, roughly close to a century. 236 00:14:56,000 --> 00:15:01,440 Speaker 1: We think, all right, dude, uh, you're going to want 237 00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:05,720 Speaker 1: somebody that deals in something other than still viable tissue 238 00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:08,120 Speaker 1: or even decomposing tissue. You're going to have to have 239 00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:10,680 Speaker 1: somebody that's gonna be able to read skeletal remains. And 240 00:15:11,520 --> 00:15:13,280 Speaker 1: boy did he do a bang up job, Dave. 241 00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:16,960 Speaker 3: You know, when I think about that, I'm thinking about 242 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:23,080 Speaker 3: somebody who is working with very sharp, small instruments. Okay, 243 00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 3: almost dainty, that's what I picture. But then this is 244 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:29,680 Speaker 3: what he said. Yeah, Ernie Walker said, my colleagues and 245 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:34,640 Speaker 3: I used heavy equipment, had some excavation around the well 246 00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:40,280 Speaker 3: and took it apart, board by board. And here's the 247 00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:43,560 Speaker 3: kicker to what Ernie Walker, the forensic anthropolgy. I'm thinking 248 00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:45,720 Speaker 3: a forensic anthropologist on an x graator. Okay, that's what 249 00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:48,560 Speaker 3: I'm picturing him on this big yellow talka toy, you know, 250 00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:52,400 Speaker 3: and but then taking it. But then, you know, going 251 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:56,120 Speaker 3: from this huge machine to board by board. 252 00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:58,720 Speaker 1: Bored by the word bitcha. 253 00:15:57,920 --> 00:16:02,760 Speaker 3: And he says, unknown, could the individual that dropped it 254 00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:07,360 Speaker 3: a piece of cribbing of the well had broken loose 255 00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:11,880 Speaker 3: and blocked the barrel from going all the way down 256 00:16:12,280 --> 00:16:12,960 Speaker 3: to the bottom. 257 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:17,280 Speaker 1: Holy smokes, what are the odds? Okay, here's another question 258 00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:23,440 Speaker 1: for you. If if it had not been caught up 259 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:27,480 Speaker 1: on that cribbing, all right, I wonder if they would 260 00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:30,000 Speaker 1: have found it or if it would have just been 261 00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:32,560 Speaker 1: down there and that would have just eradicated it. You know, 262 00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:35,680 Speaker 1: with excavators, you know, you go, hey, let me give 263 00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:41,000 Speaker 1: you another good example of using an excavator at a 264 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:45,240 Speaker 1: scene where you know that you have a body. You 265 00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:47,720 Speaker 1: remember our episode of Richard the Third, you know, the 266 00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:51,080 Speaker 1: king that was killed and the king and the car park. 267 00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:55,880 Speaker 1: Remember they started out with front end loaders out there 268 00:16:55,920 --> 00:16:58,600 Speaker 1: tearing because they had to tear that that car park 269 00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:02,720 Speaker 1: to pieces. And you have to have a sensibility about 270 00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:06,200 Speaker 1: you as a scientist, say, okay, boys, shut her down, 271 00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:10,240 Speaker 1: hand me my pick, hand me my shovel. Then after 272 00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:12,800 Speaker 1: you get done in the pick and shovel phase and 273 00:17:12,840 --> 00:17:16,680 Speaker 1: the sifter phase, okay, hand me my dental tools. Now 274 00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:19,120 Speaker 1: in my tiny little brush, all right. So it kind 275 00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:22,280 Speaker 1: of works this way. But that's why of these people 276 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:25,440 Speaker 1: go through such intense training throughout their life. That's why. 277 00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:27,879 Speaker 1: And it's not just a training. It's like getting in 278 00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:31,520 Speaker 1: a batting cage, swinging a golf club. It's practice, practice, practice, 279 00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:37,439 Speaker 1: you learn. You learn to understand what you're dealing with. 280 00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:41,159 Speaker 1: You have to understand the geology as well as the geography, 281 00:17:41,240 --> 00:17:46,000 Speaker 1: the topography. Something that I talk about my Clandestine Burials 282 00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:50,680 Speaker 1: class Dave is also hydrology. Hydrology plays a huge role 283 00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:54,440 Speaker 1: in this case, the movement of water over an area. 284 00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:58,320 Speaker 1: How it affects how many you know, over a century, 285 00:17:57,920 --> 00:18:01,960 Speaker 1: how many times has sesked and flooded, how many times 286 00:18:02,040 --> 00:18:07,200 Speaker 1: has the water table risen and dropped? You know? And 287 00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:09,560 Speaker 1: have there been sewer lines that have been laid in 288 00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:12,320 Speaker 1: around this thing over the years. You know, this is 289 00:18:12,359 --> 00:18:16,520 Speaker 1: a time when we get to the specific date, this 290 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:20,720 Speaker 1: is a time where well, people didn't have indoor plumbing. 291 00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:22,400 Speaker 1: We got a well, right, you've got to go out 292 00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:25,320 Speaker 1: and pump the water out of the well. My grandmother 293 00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:27,520 Speaker 1: used to tell me about that. Oh, you go out 294 00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:31,040 Speaker 1: to you have to go out to the you know, 295 00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:35,240 Speaker 1: to the outhouse to use use the privy. Okay, you're 296 00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:37,679 Speaker 1: not going in the house, so you've got to have 297 00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:40,320 Speaker 1: you've got to have sewer lines and water lines and 298 00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:43,640 Speaker 1: all that stuff. Did that affect anything in this environment, 299 00:18:44,359 --> 00:18:47,280 Speaker 1: and so you have all of these considerations running through 300 00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:51,200 Speaker 1: your mind. You've got the stratification of dirt, multiple layers 301 00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:53,640 Speaker 1: in there, and just to be able to work your 302 00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:56,560 Speaker 1: way through it. But you know, the one saving grace here, 303 00:18:57,960 --> 00:18:59,960 Speaker 1: The one saving grace, and I'm going to use this 304 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:02,600 Speaker 1: term because I dropped it on you a few moments ago, 305 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:09,639 Speaker 1: is that this body was not in a vault or 306 00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:14,240 Speaker 1: in a mausoleum. It wasn't even in a casket. It 307 00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:19,359 Speaker 1: was in an old oaken barrel dropped down a well. 308 00:19:20,119 --> 00:19:24,000 Speaker 1: But yet it was still what we refer to as 309 00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:40,280 Speaker 1: an intunement. Okay, So Dave, I'm going to go ahead 310 00:19:40,280 --> 00:19:45,119 Speaker 1: and tell our friends something about myself. I am obviously 311 00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:50,119 Speaker 1: a long standing massochist. And here's why this is not 312 00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:50,880 Speaker 1: the dating game. 313 00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:52,919 Speaker 2: And I'm not Jim Lang so. 314 00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:57,760 Speaker 1: Well, I'm a masochist in the sense that I'm a 315 00:19:57,760 --> 00:20:02,520 Speaker 1: Saints fan. Okay, I'm a long standing Saints fan, and 316 00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:05,520 Speaker 1: I don't care how bad my boys play. I don't 317 00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:10,800 Speaker 1: care if they're in the cellar, which they are right now, 318 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:14,040 Speaker 1: or you know, Drew Brees is leading them to the 319 00:20:14,080 --> 00:20:16,240 Speaker 1: two thousand and nine Super Bowl. I don't care. I 320 00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:18,439 Speaker 1: am faithful to the core when it comes to my Saints. 321 00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:21,080 Speaker 1: I love them, I love my hometown, and I love 322 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:22,800 Speaker 1: that team. 323 00:20:23,119 --> 00:20:25,040 Speaker 2: You know, I love Chuck when he played for the 324 00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:25,560 Speaker 2: same Oh. 325 00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:28,679 Speaker 1: Boy, yeah, we're in the glasses. Yeah, wasn't that something. 326 00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:32,359 Speaker 1: And you know, Kenny Stabler actually finished his career. Couldn't 327 00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:34,680 Speaker 1: walk that a dreamed fluid off of his knees, never 328 00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:38,040 Speaker 1: went through contact practice, that's how bad of shape he 329 00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:41,919 Speaker 1: was in. Uh yeah, don't get me started. I know 330 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:44,600 Speaker 1: all the history. You know, my mother was actually at 331 00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:48,919 Speaker 1: the first Saints home game and on the kickoff they 332 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:52,600 Speaker 1: were playing the Los Angeles Rams the kicking the Saints 333 00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:57,200 Speaker 1: received a kickoff, and maybe this is a bad thing, 334 00:20:57,480 --> 00:21:00,760 Speaker 1: but their first kickoff that they received, they ran it 335 00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:04,400 Speaker 1: back for a touchdown. That's how that's how they're their 336 00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:07,639 Speaker 1: franchise established itself. And then it all just kind of 337 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:11,040 Speaker 1: went limited to the side of the mountain at that 338 00:21:11,119 --> 00:21:13,560 Speaker 1: point in time. But you know the thing about it is, 339 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:15,840 Speaker 1: I've got the reason I'm brought up to Saints. I 340 00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:18,399 Speaker 1: have got one of I don't know if you have 341 00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:21,040 Speaker 1: one of these. I'm pretty sure you do, because you're 342 00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:25,440 Speaker 1: a dude. If you go into your chest of drawers. 343 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:27,720 Speaker 1: There's probably a T shirt that out of all the 344 00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:31,520 Speaker 1: T shirts that you possess, it's old, it's ratty, but 345 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:33,560 Speaker 1: it's soft, and it's one of these things that you 346 00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:36,160 Speaker 1: I don't know. I've got this T shirt that is ancient. 347 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:39,840 Speaker 1: It's a Saint shirt and for some reason, I put 348 00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:44,000 Speaker 1: this thing on and I just feel comforted by it. Now. 349 00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:46,880 Speaker 1: I don't know if it would require a forensic archivist 350 00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:50,680 Speaker 1: clothing arkifast to date this probably not, But in this 351 00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:55,760 Speaker 1: particular case in Saskatoon, they brought in. They brought in 352 00:21:55,920 --> 00:22:01,960 Speaker 1: a forensic clothing expert, which is fascinating to me. 353 00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:05,480 Speaker 3: Absolutely, somebody work in Hollywood on movies or something. 354 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:06,160 Speaker 2: I mean, it. 355 00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:08,880 Speaker 1: Really does, it really does, and I would assume that 356 00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:12,159 Speaker 1: within that field there's utility for that. You know, if 357 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:15,120 Speaker 1: you're going to do costuming, you know you're doing period pieces. 358 00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:18,400 Speaker 1: These people have to understand how people dressed. I hate 359 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:22,880 Speaker 1: these movies where they try to portray people in older 360 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:26,760 Speaker 1: you know, older in ancient ages and they put them 361 00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:31,480 Speaker 1: in in accurate costumes. I know, accurate costumes are probably 362 00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:35,320 Speaker 1: very expensive, but in this case, they brought this person 363 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:39,760 Speaker 1: in when they discovered that they had remains that they're 364 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:43,560 Speaker 1: dealing with. They've just tod date, just to date the 365 00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:47,120 Speaker 1: clothing to try to understand the circle of the clothing, 366 00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:52,040 Speaker 1: what was the origin of it. And not only was 367 00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:57,840 Speaker 1: there a tire that was still remaining, but Dave, they 368 00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:02,440 Speaker 1: also had a lap back, which I think plays in 369 00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:04,320 Speaker 1: to the narrative of this kick. 370 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:10,200 Speaker 3: Well, all right, so we've got a body or remains 371 00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:14,719 Speaker 3: in a burlac bag inside a barrel thrown down a 372 00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:16,600 Speaker 3: well that didn't make. 373 00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:17,879 Speaker 2: It all the way to the bottom. 374 00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:24,040 Speaker 3: They get it out and as we documented excavating and 375 00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:25,960 Speaker 3: then bored by board and pulling it out. 376 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:30,600 Speaker 2: Do you take the body then out? What do you do? 377 00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:32,479 Speaker 3: I mean, I'm going to assume they're not leaving this 378 00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:35,359 Speaker 3: barrel hanging there, that at some point they've pulled the 379 00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:38,879 Speaker 3: body out, the remains out of the barrel. How did 380 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:40,879 Speaker 3: they get the barrel out of the ground and then 381 00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:42,680 Speaker 3: get the remains and what do they take them? They're 382 00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:44,359 Speaker 3: not going to do an autopsy or look at it. 383 00:23:44,359 --> 00:23:45,720 Speaker 3: They're spread it on the grass. 384 00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:50,879 Speaker 1: Well, okay, let me let me go this way with you. Okay, 385 00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:55,040 Speaker 1: let me just tell you how Josep Scott More. We 386 00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:57,280 Speaker 1: want to do it all right, And I can't guarantee 387 00:23:57,320 --> 00:23:59,960 Speaker 1: that they did it this way. If in the watchword 388 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:04,719 Speaker 1: here is containment. Yeah, if you have if you have 389 00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:08,240 Speaker 1: a vessel, which we're going to call this barrel of vessel, 390 00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:11,439 Speaker 1: and that just means a container of something. If you 391 00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:14,480 Speaker 1: have this vessel that the body has been contained in 392 00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:18,879 Speaker 1: and apparently has been contained in for a long long time, 393 00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:23,840 Speaker 1: I'm not going to do anything to disrupt the remains 394 00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:26,960 Speaker 1: any more than I have to. Now. The question is 395 00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:31,360 Speaker 1: had the thing completely fallen apart? Was it still partially together? 396 00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:38,000 Speaker 1: Because even the components of that barrel, from a forensic standpoint, 397 00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:41,840 Speaker 1: each component that may have fallen away went deeper has 398 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:44,439 Speaker 1: got value. It's you know, in this case is no 399 00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:47,880 Speaker 1: different than any other case. You have to collect every 400 00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:51,240 Speaker 1: bit of evidence. And can I tell you I want 401 00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:54,480 Speaker 1: to tell you a real quick story about being in 402 00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:56,760 Speaker 1: a space like this. You know, one of the most 403 00:24:56,960 --> 00:25:00,920 Speaker 1: terrifying cases I have ever worked. And I say terrifying. 404 00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:07,240 Speaker 1: It had nothing to do with the actual remains, like 405 00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:10,040 Speaker 1: it was some kind of scary thing. It wasn't monsters 406 00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:12,960 Speaker 1: or anything like this. There was a case in Atlanta 407 00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:17,440 Speaker 1: years ago where the city came by and they were 408 00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:22,920 Speaker 1: inspecting either gas or waterlines in a particular area, and 409 00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:27,359 Speaker 1: they had an indication that there was a manhole beneath 410 00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:29,800 Speaker 1: the surface of the street and seeing had been and 411 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:32,800 Speaker 1: I think this is completely forbidden, but they still did it. 412 00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:36,840 Speaker 1: This thing. We calculated the thing had been asshalted over 413 00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:43,199 Speaker 1: at least seven times. So these guys they had to 414 00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:46,680 Speaker 1: break through that strata of asshalt and then they found 415 00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:49,960 Speaker 1: the manhole cover where they popped it off and guess what. 416 00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:57,280 Speaker 1: There was a woman's body in the bottom of this 417 00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:03,439 Speaker 1: manhole and it had been dismembered and placed into plastic backs. 418 00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:06,400 Speaker 1: Plastics still existed. I had to go down in this thing. 419 00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:10,840 Speaker 1: And the scary thing about going down into a manhole, 420 00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:13,600 Speaker 1: other than if you're claust phobic, it's not a cool 421 00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:17,119 Speaker 1: place to be, is that you know, the lower you 422 00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:20,879 Speaker 1: descend in this thing, the less oxygen there is. And 423 00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:23,000 Speaker 1: there have been people that have gone into these things 424 00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:27,360 Speaker 1: and suffocated before, even with a lid open on this thing. 425 00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:28,879 Speaker 1: So I was like, and I had this in the 426 00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:31,440 Speaker 1: back of my mind, Listen, if there's anybody out there 427 00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:34,440 Speaker 1: that can work up a worst case scenario, I'm chief 428 00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:39,600 Speaker 1: among centers. You know, my wife says, I've got a 429 00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:46,439 Speaker 1: mind that has an incalpable amount of trivia. It's because 430 00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:48,720 Speaker 1: I read all the time. I'd be great on a 431 00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:52,960 Speaker 1: trivia team. But you know, I'd read, you know, over 432 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:54,680 Speaker 1: the years about these sorts of things, and there are 433 00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:57,879 Speaker 1: cases out there where people have had to go into manholes. 434 00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:01,760 Speaker 1: Manholes over the years have been a great, well, I 435 00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:04,000 Speaker 1: say great, that's not a good word to use, have 436 00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:08,879 Speaker 1: been a preferred location, particularly in big cities, for dumping 437 00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:12,520 Speaker 1: bodies because the course of nature is just going to 438 00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:15,320 Speaker 1: take over. The body's going to break down, and they'll 439 00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:19,720 Speaker 1: just slap the lid on top of it. And particularly 440 00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:22,080 Speaker 1: if they're aware of the manhole in the location of it, 441 00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:23,840 Speaker 1: and they know that they live around the area, they 442 00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:25,840 Speaker 1: know nobody ever comes out here. I want to see 443 00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:27,960 Speaker 1: work crews out here. I've got it. I've killed somebody. 444 00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:30,520 Speaker 1: I'm going to dump them down down into this manhole. 445 00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:33,480 Speaker 1: And so for me, that was terrifying, and that was 446 00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:36,840 Speaker 1: a really painstaking thing. We did not have an anthropologist 447 00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:37,240 Speaker 1: out there. 448 00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:38,879 Speaker 3: I had you have to go in head first. Did 449 00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:41,240 Speaker 3: they like hold you by a rope around your feet 450 00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:43,760 Speaker 3: and drag it in. I mean, I think it's halfway 451 00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:45,880 Speaker 3: down there. You had to be cussing going. I went 452 00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:47,879 Speaker 3: to so many years in college, hub boyd. 453 00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:51,480 Speaker 2: This kind of worked. Isn't there somebody there? Anybody something 454 00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:52,359 Speaker 2: can come down here? 455 00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:55,520 Speaker 1: There was something that was kind of intellectually stimulating about it, 456 00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:58,720 Speaker 1: I have to say, because and again it's being a 457 00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:04,520 Speaker 1: death investigator. The odd road of a death investigator is 458 00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:09,280 Speaker 1: going to take you to many unique locations along your journey, 459 00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:12,159 Speaker 1: and that's just one of them. For me, it was 460 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:15,240 Speaker 1: and I hadn't really thought about that until we started chatting, 461 00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:21,760 Speaker 1: but collecting those remains because those bags had actually erupted 462 00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:24,480 Speaker 1: down there and had torn over a period of time. 463 00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:29,120 Speaker 1: But it was in this real kind of mucky, muddy 464 00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:32,440 Speaker 1: bottom down there, and you could actually see the little 465 00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:35,200 Speaker 1: turn valves you know, that were still there. They're made 466 00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:38,800 Speaker 1: out of cast iron or aluminum or something where you 467 00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:41,720 Speaker 1: could go down there and manage like whatever pipes. We're 468 00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:43,520 Speaker 1: going through. This area shows you how much I know 469 00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:47,080 Speaker 1: about plumbing, but you know, to be able to access 470 00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:50,040 Speaker 1: all the stuff down there. And when this body in 471 00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:53,040 Speaker 1: the bottom of this thing had landed, you could tell 472 00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:55,640 Speaker 1: it was like it impacted really hard. I think that 473 00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:58,760 Speaker 1: probably the bag initially got torn by the initial drop. 474 00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:02,520 Speaker 1: That's why the case up in Saskatoon is kind of interesting, 475 00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:07,520 Speaker 1: because if this thing got cock eyed going down the well, dude, 476 00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:10,520 Speaker 1: this thing may have been preserved to a great degree. 477 00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:13,640 Speaker 1: And they're actually saying the body was in a barrel, 478 00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:18,000 Speaker 1: So do you still have containment with the remains and 479 00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:22,240 Speaker 1: the barrel is the structural integrity of the thing has 480 00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:26,120 Speaker 1: not been compromised to the point where you couldn't maybe 481 00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:28,040 Speaker 1: remove it in one piece. Now, for all I know 482 00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:32,520 Speaker 1: they went in and did. But the the problem is 483 00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:36,920 Speaker 1: is if you take if you take that body out 484 00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:39,680 Speaker 1: of that barrel, if you take it out of the barrel, 485 00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:44,640 Speaker 1: there are so many fine components of the human skeleton 486 00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:47,400 Speaker 1: that you start losing the bones of the hands, the 487 00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:50,400 Speaker 1: bones of the feet really really quickly. And don't even 488 00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:53,160 Speaker 1: get me started on for tebral bodies. Oh and by 489 00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:57,760 Speaker 1: the way, what's really important the hyoid bone, the fact 490 00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:02,000 Speaker 1: that you would have a preserved, perhaps historic hyoid bones 491 00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:05,160 Speaker 1: still in place, because that's something you can actually appreciate. 492 00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:06,960 Speaker 1: They might give you clues. 493 00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:09,320 Speaker 3: I want to ask you something as we're talking about 494 00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:12,240 Speaker 3: this in the well and the body and we know 495 00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:14,160 Speaker 3: it's old, we don't know how old. They're trying to 496 00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:17,200 Speaker 3: figure this out. And you mentioned the forensic coming in 497 00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:19,760 Speaker 3: and looking at the clothing and the threads and the 498 00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:22,880 Speaker 3: things like that, and having that type of expertise you 499 00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:25,080 Speaker 3: told me about the. 500 00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:26,320 Speaker 2: Case of Huey P. Long. 501 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:30,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, and how that that came into play with 502 00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:33,280 Speaker 3: that as well, with that type of forensic. 503 00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:36,720 Speaker 2: Uh thread count. I mean, I don't even know. 504 00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:39,800 Speaker 1: Listen, I knew nothing. Listen. I've got to I've got 505 00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:41,760 Speaker 1: to proclaim my ignorance here. And I was a very 506 00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:44,040 Speaker 1: young investigator when this happened. There was a guy named 507 00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:46,400 Speaker 1: Bill Stars. If you had a chance, check him out. 508 00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:49,280 Speaker 1: I think I think Ductor Stars our professor Stars has 509 00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:53,800 Speaker 1: passed on now. He was at George Washington University. He 510 00:30:53,880 --> 00:31:01,520 Speaker 1: did the exhumation on Huey P. Loong's uh assassin. Who's 511 00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:03,480 Speaker 1: a guy named doctor Weiss. If you don't know who 512 00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:07,840 Speaker 1: who E. Pen Long was. He was a populist governor 513 00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:14,840 Speaker 1: in Louisiana and he was assassinated in the hallway in 514 00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:18,200 Speaker 1: the main hallway in the old Capitol building in Baton Rouge. 515 00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:20,960 Speaker 1: And this guy had a beef with him doctor Weiss did. 516 00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:23,240 Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, they think that Hughey may 517 00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:26,400 Speaker 1: have actually been shot by one of his bodyguards by accident. 518 00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:30,720 Speaker 1: But heugh I think, if I remember correctly, Weiss had 519 00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:37,080 Speaker 1: a compact pocket thirty two caliber automatic, which you don't 520 00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:41,520 Speaker 1: come across those very often anymore, and shot. He shot 521 00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:43,640 Speaker 1: Governor Long and struck him in the abdom and he 522 00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:47,320 Speaker 1: lingered for a few days. But they killed Weiss's graveyard dead. Well. 523 00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:53,320 Speaker 1: The family had questions about the specific injuries. Also, they 524 00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:55,000 Speaker 1: wanted to know if it was actually Wiss in the 525 00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:58,080 Speaker 1: grave because there was all kinds of political injury back then. 526 00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:00,680 Speaker 1: But Bill Starrs also did something else famous that you 527 00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:03,080 Speaker 1: might be aware of, Dave, And I wasn't part of this. 528 00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:06,240 Speaker 1: I wish I could have been. He exhumed Jesse James's 529 00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:08,960 Speaker 1: body and he's the way that actually proved that Jesse 530 00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:12,760 Speaker 1: James was in fact buried in his grave. Wow, and 531 00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:15,160 Speaker 1: you can see those now, listen. It's nothing, I mean, 532 00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:17,320 Speaker 1: go online. You can look it up and see the 533 00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:20,360 Speaker 1: exhammation of Jesse James is out there. And doctor our 534 00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:23,959 Speaker 1: professor Stars and Professor Stars got involved in a lot 535 00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:25,880 Speaker 1: of these well. He gets involved in the Huey P. 536 00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:30,520 Speaker 1: Long case, and I'm a very young death investigator, and 537 00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:34,160 Speaker 1: we brought some of those remains. I think back to 538 00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:38,800 Speaker 1: our facility where I was working in Metro New Orleans 539 00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:41,120 Speaker 1: and did some imaging and things like that. But the 540 00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:43,720 Speaker 1: person I was fascinated by is they had this lady 541 00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:48,280 Speaker 1: that was that worked for the Smithsonian and this was 542 00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:52,640 Speaker 1: her job. Her job was examining clothing and they brought 543 00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:56,080 Speaker 1: her in on the Weiss case to examine, you know, 544 00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:59,960 Speaker 1: Weiss's clothing, and she was looking for things like, well, 545 00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:06,880 Speaker 1: obviously manufacture markers, thread counts, what was there any type 546 00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:10,520 Speaker 1: of blend, you know, relative to the clothing. Were there 547 00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:13,080 Speaker 1: any types of special dyes that were used, because they're 548 00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:14,800 Speaker 1: going to go if you're going to go to the 549 00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:20,360 Speaker 1: to the trouble to dig up somebody, you're going to 550 00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:22,280 Speaker 1: have all hands on deck because there's a lot of 551 00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:25,280 Speaker 1: eyes on this. I remember at the time the news 552 00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:28,400 Speaker 1: news media was in a frenzy in the state of Louisiana. 553 00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:32,040 Speaker 1: It was a big deal. But they actually used one 554 00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:35,040 Speaker 1: of these people in this case in Saskatoon where they 555 00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:39,440 Speaker 1: bring in this clothing archivist who's got apparently a background 556 00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:44,320 Speaker 1: in forensics, and here we're dealing with a body that 557 00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:48,400 Speaker 1: is completely unidentified. Wis you kind of knew that it 558 00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:50,880 Speaker 1: was going to be him, But in this case, you 559 00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:53,920 Speaker 1: don't know what you're dealing with. Dude, you have no idea. 560 00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:57,000 Speaker 1: So every bit of data that you can glean, by 561 00:33:57,040 --> 00:33:59,840 Speaker 1: the way being contained not just in a barrel, but 562 00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:02,520 Speaker 1: actually in a burlap sack. And for folks that don't 563 00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:05,880 Speaker 1: know what burlap is, it's actually made out of the 564 00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:11,000 Speaker 1: ute plant jute, and it's very resilient as a matter 565 00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:14,759 Speaker 1: of fact, for any biblical scholar, you don't have to 566 00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:16,799 Speaker 1: be a scholar. You may have read about the term 567 00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:21,919 Speaker 1: of people that they talk about grieving. There's a couple 568 00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:23,799 Speaker 1: of verses in the Bible they talk about putting on 569 00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:28,839 Speaker 1: sackcloth and ashes. Well, sackcloth is actually burr lap. And 570 00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:31,560 Speaker 1: you mentioned something. I'll go ahead and let you say this. 571 00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:34,959 Speaker 1: There's a modern case right now that's in the news 572 00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:39,240 Speaker 1: that actually involves burlap as well. And Dave take it away, which. 573 00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:39,719 Speaker 2: Case is that? 574 00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:43,080 Speaker 3: Is that the crazy one we've been dealing with out 575 00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:44,360 Speaker 3: there on the beach forever. 576 00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:47,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, you'll go beach man, yeah, list man. 577 00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:51,359 Speaker 3: Yeah, And it's just crazy because that burlap sack thing 578 00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:53,520 Speaker 3: they came into play where there was could have been 579 00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:56,359 Speaker 3: a fisherman because the carry oysters and these things. Yeah, 580 00:34:56,520 --> 00:34:59,680 Speaker 3: I mean, we actually did an entire episode on where 581 00:34:59,840 --> 00:35:03,800 Speaker 3: the these burlap type sacks could have come from up there, 582 00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:05,920 Speaker 3: because they were found near the bodies, or under the 583 00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:08,640 Speaker 3: bodies or on the bodies. And it's like, I mean, 584 00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:11,640 Speaker 3: the craziness that goes into covering a case. You have 585 00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:15,600 Speaker 3: no idea, but the Long Island serial Killer, I still 586 00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:18,600 Speaker 3: haven't found an answer for the burlap sacks. 587 00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:19,680 Speaker 2: That were part of that investigation. 588 00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:23,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's this really cheap to manufacture, but back 589 00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:27,040 Speaker 1: then everybody used burlap. I mean, you would put feed 590 00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:31,960 Speaker 1: in there, you would put corn in their flour. You 591 00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:35,200 Speaker 1: can imagine, and they're very resilient, just like hemp is 592 00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:38,640 Speaker 1: very resilient. You know, you use these naturally occurring fibers 593 00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:42,600 Speaker 1: and it would last a long long time. And you know, 594 00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:46,080 Speaker 1: and I'm thinking about this case, why would why would 595 00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:50,839 Speaker 1: somebody essentially and they didn't mind, you, Dave. They did 596 00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:55,960 Speaker 1: not say this body was wrapped in burlap. They said 597 00:35:56,160 --> 00:36:00,200 Speaker 1: this lady was placed into a burlap sack. And then 598 00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:04,560 Speaker 1: placed into a barrel. Why not just place her into 599 00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:08,920 Speaker 1: a barrel? Why use a sack? I wonder, I wonder 600 00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:16,160 Speaker 1: if the sack was intended for maybe absorption or maybe 601 00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:23,520 Speaker 1: to mask something, or is the individual so intimately involved 602 00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:26,920 Speaker 1: with the person We've talked about this before. As grotesque 603 00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:31,160 Speaker 1: as this is, was this some kind of weird desth route, 604 00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:35,839 Speaker 1: like they're memorializing the dead that goes to a personal relationship, Like, right, 605 00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:39,480 Speaker 1: you know that you would take this much, this much time, 606 00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:43,200 Speaker 1: and by the way, commit a homicide and take this 607 00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:45,960 Speaker 1: much time with an individual, place them into a sack, 608 00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:51,319 Speaker 1: place them into a barrel, I guess, nail down the 609 00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:54,520 Speaker 1: lid of the barrel, walk out to a well on 610 00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:57,640 Speaker 1: this property at the hotel, right, and just drop it 611 00:36:57,719 --> 00:37:00,120 Speaker 1: down in there and walk away from it. It's a 612 00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:16,360 Speaker 1: fascinating dynamic looking back at it. Look, if you're an 613 00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:18,399 Speaker 1: investigator and you show up at a scene and there's 614 00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:23,640 Speaker 1: an abandoned well, Huh, you got a body in a barrel? 615 00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:26,640 Speaker 1: You got to the body in the barrel is in 616 00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:31,399 Speaker 1: case in a sack. You know, because the anthropologist tells 617 00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:35,160 Speaker 1: you that this is a female, they're thinking she's maybe 618 00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:38,319 Speaker 1: in her early thirties to mid thirties, and we can 619 00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:41,560 Speaker 1: get into that how they would determine that. But they're 620 00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:47,680 Speaker 1: also seeing what has been noted as fatal trauma to 621 00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:51,960 Speaker 1: her body. Well, if you're saying fatal trauma, you're not 622 00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:54,240 Speaker 1: looking for at this point in time, you're not looking 623 00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:58,040 Speaker 1: for contusions or bruises on the body. They're seeing something 624 00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:02,399 Speaker 1: dave on the skeleton that gives you an idea that 625 00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:07,000 Speaker 1: this lady was subjected to pretty brutal violence. I think 626 00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:11,080 Speaker 1: in this case, what kind of fatal trauma can you 627 00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:15,880 Speaker 1: identify on a body? And they give the indication that 628 00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:18,600 Speaker 1: this is some kind of repeated trauma. So I'm thinking 629 00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:22,320 Speaker 1: that this is evidenced on the skull more than likely. Again, 630 00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:25,640 Speaker 1: that's a very you know, I was talking about memorialization. 631 00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:30,560 Speaker 1: This is an intimate thing because if this was like 632 00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:34,279 Speaker 1: a bludgeoning that's up close and personal, you know, it's 633 00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:37,239 Speaker 1: I always talk about that how bludgeonings and sharp force 634 00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:41,160 Speaker 1: injuries are. It's intimate. You know, there's no way to 635 00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:44,759 Speaker 1: get past it's very very intimate. And bludgeonings in particular 636 00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:51,279 Speaker 1: are rage filled. So who could a thirty something year 637 00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:55,360 Speaker 1: old woman aggravate to the point where they're going to 638 00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:58,759 Speaker 1: start striking her multiple times on the head, to the 639 00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:03,239 Speaker 1: point where they're going to killer. I think that's that's 640 00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:07,560 Speaker 1: a big question here. And you know, you can look 641 00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:10,520 Speaker 1: at things in the modern sense and say, well, if 642 00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:12,520 Speaker 1: you can do that, and you can attach you know, 643 00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:15,200 Speaker 1: the idea of the intimacy, you begin to narrow down 644 00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:18,279 Speaker 1: the field as far as suspects go. But dude, what 645 00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:23,600 Speaker 1: happens when there's no more suspects? I mean, because look, 646 00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:27,439 Speaker 1: she's been gone a long long time. Who out there 647 00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:32,880 Speaker 1: could have had anything to do with her demise? If 648 00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:35,239 Speaker 1: they're not still living and breathing, how are you going 649 00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:37,160 Speaker 1: to track this down? And that's that's one of the 650 00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:39,399 Speaker 1: big things that these investigators faced with, Dave. 651 00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:42,319 Speaker 2: And they still have to identify who the victim is. 652 00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:44,759 Speaker 2: They still don't know who she is. 653 00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:49,080 Speaker 3: And for all these years, nearly twenty years, okay, we don't, 654 00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:51,640 Speaker 3: they just called her the woman in the well And 655 00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:55,600 Speaker 3: it was this past July. Okay, Now that's how fast 656 00:39:55,680 --> 00:40:00,759 Speaker 3: this moved. Our friends at author them, have they have 657 00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:08,280 Speaker 3: been able to use their abilities? And I would hope, 658 00:40:08,719 --> 00:40:12,440 Speaker 3: I would hope everyone that has certain abilities, certain mental 659 00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:15,840 Speaker 3: ability or whatever your ability in life is I hope 660 00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:18,080 Speaker 3: and pray that if you have something that is so 661 00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:21,440 Speaker 3: special and so specific, that you actually do use it 662 00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:25,800 Speaker 3: for good. Because without the work they're doing, we wouldn't 663 00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:29,080 Speaker 3: know so many things. This woman would not have a name. 664 00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:31,440 Speaker 3: She has a name now by the way. 665 00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:32,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, Joe. 666 00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:38,680 Speaker 3: None of her family, none of her descendants, knew anything, 667 00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:41,960 Speaker 3: and we now know. She was born in eighteen eighty one, 668 00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:44,319 Speaker 3: one of five children in and she was born in 669 00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:46,359 Speaker 3: Michigan in the US. 670 00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:47,640 Speaker 2: In nineteen oh. 671 00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:50,040 Speaker 3: Two, she moved to Duluth, Minnesota with her mother and 672 00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:54,840 Speaker 3: two brothers. A marriage certificate shows that she married Charles 673 00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:59,359 Speaker 3: Spence in Saint Louis, Minnesota in nineteen oh four, So 674 00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:04,000 Speaker 3: at the age of twenty three, she marries Charles Spence 675 00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:08,360 Speaker 3: and gives birth to their daughter, Idella. In nineteen oh five. 676 00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:15,719 Speaker 3: February nineteen sixteen, Alice gives birth to a daughter who 677 00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:21,320 Speaker 3: died that same day. The nineteen sixteen census shows Alice, Charles, 678 00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:25,279 Speaker 3: and Idella living in Saskatoon. By the way, they moved 679 00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:29,640 Speaker 3: to sas Saskatoon in nineteen thirteen. I meant to say 680 00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:32,680 Speaker 3: that apologize, So they moved from Minnesota or from Michigan, 681 00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:39,640 Speaker 3: Canada in nineteen thirteen. Nineteen sixteen, the census shows Alice, 682 00:41:39,719 --> 00:41:42,560 Speaker 3: Charles and Idella living in Saskatoon. Now, there's a newspaper 683 00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:45,680 Speaker 3: article that came out in nineteen eighteen that details how 684 00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:48,800 Speaker 3: the Spence House was destroyed by fire while the family 685 00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:56,800 Speaker 3: was away. In nineteen twenty one, Joe, the census lists 686 00:41:56,920 --> 00:41:59,960 Speaker 3: Charles as living with his daughter Idella and a house 687 00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:03,799 Speaker 3: keeper and her son. Charles died of heart attack in 688 00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:08,239 Speaker 3: May of nineteen twenty three. So let me focus real 689 00:42:08,280 --> 00:42:12,319 Speaker 3: quick here on Idella, the daughter born in nineteen oh five. 690 00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:16,880 Speaker 3: Idella died in nineteen ninety five at the age of ninety, 691 00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:20,719 Speaker 3: and all her relatives knew her granddaughters and her great 692 00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:26,759 Speaker 3: They only knew that Grandma Idella was orphaned at seventeen, 693 00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:31,800 Speaker 3: and that's all they knew. She wouldn't talk about anything 694 00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:34,640 Speaker 3: before she was seventeen. And when you think of it, yeah, 695 00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:38,200 Speaker 3: now police believe. And this is why the family is 696 00:42:38,239 --> 00:42:41,479 Speaker 3: like if we'd only known, you know, because when Idella died, 697 00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:43,920 Speaker 3: the woman in the well was eleven years away from 698 00:42:43,920 --> 00:42:49,759 Speaker 3: being found and the family knew nothing of Idella's mother. 699 00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:53,319 Speaker 3: They knew nothing of Idella's father because she didn't tell 700 00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:54,279 Speaker 3: them anything about it. 701 00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:57,120 Speaker 2: But what we do have is the police eleon this. 702 00:42:57,200 --> 00:43:01,840 Speaker 3: Between nineteen sixteen and nineteen eighteen, Alice Spence was killed 703 00:43:02,600 --> 00:43:04,799 Speaker 3: and based on that fire in the house when their 704 00:43:04,840 --> 00:43:10,080 Speaker 3: sofas away from home. Yep, what do you think maybe 705 00:43:10,880 --> 00:43:13,640 Speaker 3: based on the bur lab sack being placed and by 706 00:43:13,640 --> 00:43:15,600 Speaker 3: the way, they lived a block away from where this 707 00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:16,160 Speaker 3: well was. 708 00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:19,560 Speaker 1: And the well was actually part of an old hotel. 709 00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:21,719 Speaker 3: Was yes, it was, and it was the well was 710 00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:24,600 Speaker 3: used by that hotel. So if it's an active well 711 00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:27,480 Speaker 3: being used, you know, pumping water up out of it, 712 00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:29,960 Speaker 3: and you drop something down in there, it's not going 713 00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:32,000 Speaker 3: to be discovered put in you know. 714 00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:36,479 Speaker 1: No, Yeah, unless unless the actual return on the well 715 00:43:36,600 --> 00:43:39,000 Speaker 1: is blocked in some way. And apparently I guess it 716 00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:42,040 Speaker 1: was never blocked. No, apparently, not water out of it. 717 00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:45,279 Speaker 1: But here's an interesting thing that the anthropologist brought up, Dave, 718 00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:50,400 Speaker 1: and I'm fascinated by this aspect, was that he opined 719 00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:54,480 Speaker 1: that the level of preservation in this body, first off, 720 00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:58,000 Speaker 1: it was pretty striking. According to him, he said that 721 00:43:58,080 --> 00:44:00,759 Speaker 1: he felt as though that the level of press preservation 722 00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:04,440 Speaker 1: of the body can be tied directly to both a 723 00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:10,640 Speaker 1: combination of water and get this gasoline that was apparently 724 00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:14,480 Speaker 1: permeating this area. And I'm thinking, you know, one of 725 00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:17,200 Speaker 1: the things I'm thinking, I've just been teaching a section 726 00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:22,279 Speaker 1: in my Clandestine Burials class about the bog bodies that 727 00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:25,400 Speaker 1: you find in Denmark and some in Great Britain and 728 00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:28,880 Speaker 1: other locations, and they're found in peat bogs. Well, that's 729 00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:32,120 Speaker 1: that is what's referred to. We all know what aerobics is, 730 00:44:32,160 --> 00:44:35,640 Speaker 1: you know, like aerobic exercise taken on oxygen. I wonder 731 00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:41,239 Speaker 1: if this created almost an aerobic environment that promotes preservation. 732 00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:45,080 Speaker 1: I'm not saying to a great extent. You know, obviously 733 00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:48,600 Speaker 1: her soft tissues are probably gone, but he's saying this 734 00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:53,239 Speaker 1: as a preservative. I'm wondering if the alcohol are the 735 00:44:54,360 --> 00:44:58,680 Speaker 1: gasoline factors into this? And where's a gasoline? I mean, 736 00:44:58,719 --> 00:45:01,080 Speaker 1: gasoline is something that has to be refined. It's not 737 00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:04,680 Speaker 1: just like naturally occurring in that area. And you do 738 00:45:04,760 --> 00:45:09,000 Speaker 1: have petroleum, and I think Sasktchewan is known, you know 739 00:45:09,080 --> 00:45:13,080 Speaker 1: as a petroleum producer. I don't know, it's it's an 740 00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:17,600 Speaker 1: interesting it's interesting I think to speculate about. But the 741 00:45:17,640 --> 00:45:22,239 Speaker 1: fact that she was in fact finally identified, and that 742 00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:25,799 Speaker 1: they have what sounds like homicidal trauma. One of the 743 00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:30,520 Speaker 1: things another aspect of this, Dave, is they the Canadian 744 00:45:30,560 --> 00:45:35,759 Speaker 1: authorities are refusing they they're refusing to name the suspect 745 00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:39,880 Speaker 1: because now get this, they say he's not here to 746 00:45:39,960 --> 00:45:44,759 Speaker 1: defend himself. No kidding, no kidding. Yeah, yeah, I would 747 00:45:44,800 --> 00:45:47,400 Speaker 1: say he's not here to defend himself. And I'm thinking, 748 00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:50,200 Speaker 1: you know, so I may. I don't know, maybe their 749 00:45:50,239 --> 00:45:52,560 Speaker 1: brain stretches much further than now. I just don't understand 750 00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:55,200 Speaker 1: what considerations there are. But we do have a name 751 00:45:55,239 --> 00:45:57,799 Speaker 1: of the victim, and of course on bodybacks, that's what 752 00:45:57,840 --> 00:46:00,800 Speaker 1: we're all about. We're we're about the dead and speaking 753 00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:03,680 Speaker 1: for the dead. I'm just glad that this was brought 754 00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:08,480 Speaker 1: to a conclusion by our friends at AUTHRAM and I 755 00:46:08,560 --> 00:46:10,680 Speaker 1: got to tell you this. It's and you and I 756 00:46:10,840 --> 00:46:13,040 Speaker 1: talked about this just a few seconds ago off air. 757 00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:16,080 Speaker 1: And it's an amazing world that we live in now. 758 00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:21,759 Speaker 1: It's sometimes it's a very scary place, but technology nowadays 759 00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:24,320 Speaker 1: is kind of amazing. And we live in a world 760 00:46:24,920 --> 00:46:32,960 Speaker 1: where sometimes the actual deaths, the cases they take time 761 00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:38,600 Speaker 1: to solve, and sometimes those cases, well, they have to 762 00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:42,120 Speaker 1: catch up with science, and in this case, that's what 763 00:46:42,200 --> 00:46:45,360 Speaker 1: our friends at AUTHRAM employed. If you have an interest 764 00:46:46,040 --> 00:46:51,040 Speaker 1: in wanting to help, wanting to help a family out 765 00:46:51,040 --> 00:46:55,040 Speaker 1: there that, like Alice's family, didn't even know who she was, 766 00:46:56,440 --> 00:46:59,279 Speaker 1: and you want to help them draw conclusion to a 767 00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:03,440 Speaker 1: dark secret, maybe get those answers that they've been longing for. 768 00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:08,040 Speaker 1: Check out dnasolves dot com. Visit their website. You can 769 00:47:08,080 --> 00:47:10,760 Speaker 1: go there and you can contribute. You pick a case, 770 00:47:11,520 --> 00:47:14,480 Speaker 1: you can help fund this and they have a trigger point. 771 00:47:14,560 --> 00:47:17,200 Speaker 1: I think it's roughly seven to seven thousand dollars and 772 00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:20,480 Speaker 1: if they hit that goal, they'll flip the switch and 773 00:47:20,520 --> 00:47:22,719 Speaker 1: they'll start to work. But they have them listed there. 774 00:47:22,760 --> 00:47:30,880 Speaker 1: That's a DNA solves dot com. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan 775 00:47:31,320 --> 00:47:34,080 Speaker 1: and this is Bodybacks