WEBVTT - Chinese Tycoon Convicted & Homeless Veterans' Plight 0:00:03.200 --> 0:00:08.000 This is Bloomberg Law with June Brusso from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:10.360 --> 0:00:14.720 After a trial that lasted almost two months, exiled Chinese 0:00:14.760 --> 0:00:19.080 tycoon Guo Wangui was convicted of a massive fraud and 0:00:19.200 --> 0:00:22.639 duping investors out of one billion dollars to fund his 0:00:22.760 --> 0:00:27.200 lavish lifestyle. Quo's criticism of the Communist Party won him 0:00:27.280 --> 0:00:31.640 legions of online followers, and prosecutors say he fleeced those 0:00:31.760 --> 0:00:36.040 loyal followers out of their money for seemingly legitimate businesses 0:00:36.400 --> 0:00:39.279 and then diverted the funds to himself so he could 0:00:39.320 --> 0:00:42.839 spend his days living in his twenty six million dollar mansion, 0:00:43.240 --> 0:00:46.760 lounging on his thirty seven million dollar yacht, driving his 0:00:46.920 --> 0:00:50.640 million dollar red Lamborghini, not to mention a four million 0:00:50.680 --> 0:00:53.880 dollar Ferrari for his son, a more than one million 0:00:53.960 --> 0:00:58.600 dollar jewelry box, and other extravagant purchases. Joining me is 0:00:58.600 --> 0:01:01.800 Bloomberg Legal reporter av Benny Morrison, who covered the trial, 0:01:02.080 --> 0:01:05.840 ava the jury convicted him of fraud and racketeering nine 0:01:05.880 --> 0:01:09.319 counts out of twelve. Tell us about the prosecution's case. 0:01:09.959 --> 0:01:14.120 Marsgow was charged with twelve different offenses related to a 0:01:14.200 --> 0:01:17.720 scheme to defraud investors out of a billion dollars. Prosecutors 0:01:17.720 --> 0:01:21.080 alleged that he did this in a number of smaller schemes, 0:01:21.120 --> 0:01:24.880 one related to a cryptocurrency exchange, another related to a 0:01:24.920 --> 0:01:28.920 farm to lians program, and an exclusive membership club called 0:01:29.000 --> 0:01:32.800 G Clubs. The allegation was that he really pried on 0:01:33.280 --> 0:01:36.240 his followers, that he had a mass through his anti 0:01:36.560 --> 0:01:41.000 Chinese Communist Party campaign, A lot of people online gravitated 0:01:41.040 --> 0:01:45.440 towards his online videos and his very outspoken critical statements 0:01:45.480 --> 0:01:48.480 against the Chinese government, and then he appealed to them 0:01:48.560 --> 0:01:52.120 to invest money in the various business opportunities. The prosecution 0:01:52.240 --> 0:01:54.360 said that he took a lot of this money, more 0:01:54.360 --> 0:01:56.720 than a billion dollars, and spent it on himself and 0:01:56.800 --> 0:01:57.440 his family. 0:01:58.240 --> 0:02:03.279 He had incredible wealth, he flaunted, and the prosecution spent 0:02:03.600 --> 0:02:07.240 some time on showing how he spent his money. 0:02:07.520 --> 0:02:10.560 Yes, the prosecution said that he spent a lot of 0:02:10.639 --> 0:02:14.960 investor funds on enriching himself and his family. So that 0:02:15.040 --> 0:02:18.160 included a twenty six million dollar mansion in New Jersey, 0:02:18.560 --> 0:02:22.560 a red Lamborghini, a Ferrari for his son, a sixty 0:02:22.600 --> 0:02:27.000 thousand dollars TV, ridiculously expend his mattresses, all of those 0:02:27.160 --> 0:02:31.400 luxuries that went into living a very opulent lifestyle. The 0:02:31.440 --> 0:02:34.480 defense came back and said, look, he is used to 0:02:34.520 --> 0:02:37.400 this lifestyle. He came from a really wealthy family of 0:02:37.480 --> 0:02:41.079 properties developers in China. And while most people might think 0:02:41.080 --> 0:02:44.440 it's outrageous to spend thirty five thousand dollars on a mattress, 0:02:44.520 --> 0:02:47.680 these were things that Musglow was used to. He's always argued, 0:02:47.760 --> 0:02:49.480 and he shouldn't be judged for that. 0:02:50.320 --> 0:02:54.080 His crusade against the Communist Party, What part did that 0:02:54.240 --> 0:02:55.520 play in the trial? 0:02:56.000 --> 0:02:59.919 It was a big argument that the defense put forward. 0:03:00.080 --> 0:03:02.120 So they tried to paint him as someone who had 0:03:02.120 --> 0:03:06.000 devoted his life to the whistleblower movement and put himself 0:03:06.080 --> 0:03:09.400 in grave danger because of that. They said that he 0:03:09.720 --> 0:03:13.760 was an unapologetic critic of the Chinese government and fled 0:03:13.800 --> 0:03:17.080 persecution in China to the US, where he sought political 0:03:17.120 --> 0:03:20.440 asylum in twenty seventeen. And the defense said that he 0:03:20.520 --> 0:03:24.360 had been the target of retaliation by the Chinese government. 0:03:24.480 --> 0:03:27.040 They'd tried to extradite him back to China a few 0:03:27.120 --> 0:03:30.239 years ago, that hacked into his bank account, his phones, 0:03:30.400 --> 0:03:33.120 his laptop. They said that he had put himself at 0:03:33.120 --> 0:03:36.400 great risk and painted him as of this brave political 0:03:36.480 --> 0:03:41.120 crusader and an activist. The government essentially suggested that this 0:03:41.600 --> 0:03:43.240 was all a bit of a front and even if 0:03:43.240 --> 0:03:45.960 he was a political activist, it didn't have anything to 0:03:46.000 --> 0:03:48.520 do with the crux of the case, which was that 0:03:48.880 --> 0:03:51.400 he defrauded a lot of investors out of a lot 0:03:51.400 --> 0:03:51.880 of money. 0:03:52.240 --> 0:03:55.360 A two month trial start with the prosecution what kinds 0:03:55.400 --> 0:03:57.760 of witnesses which were the most effective. 0:03:58.320 --> 0:04:02.600 The most effective witnesses were some of the investors themselves 0:04:02.600 --> 0:04:06.839 that the prosecution called. They described investing money in some 0:04:06.880 --> 0:04:11.200 of Milesgow's businesses and his companies like GTV Media, which 0:04:11.240 --> 0:04:14.560 was a social media platform on g clubs, the exclusive 0:04:14.600 --> 0:04:17.240 members only club, the farm to Loan program, and a 0:04:17.279 --> 0:04:21.600 crypto exchange. They said that they gravitated towards Miles Glow's 0:04:21.720 --> 0:04:25.480 videos where he was critical of the Chinese government. Some 0:04:25.520 --> 0:04:28.320 of those videos he recorded in the penthouse at the 0:04:28.640 --> 0:04:32.359 famous Sherry Nedeline hotel that overlooks Central Park in Manhattan, 0:04:32.680 --> 0:04:35.240 or on the deck of his one hundred and fifty 0:04:35.279 --> 0:04:39.480 two foot super yacht, which was often maud Off the Posters, Connecticut, 0:04:39.480 --> 0:04:41.760 where he had another house so some of these investors 0:04:41.800 --> 0:04:45.200 spoke about how they admired him and they believed in 0:04:45.279 --> 0:04:48.360 what he was saying and were on the same page 0:04:48.480 --> 0:04:50.719 as he was when it came to beaking out against 0:04:50.720 --> 0:04:53.360 the Chinese government. So they felt comfortable in investing their 0:04:53.360 --> 0:04:55.680 money with him. But then they never got it back. 0:04:55.839 --> 0:04:58.440 And I remember one witness being on the stand too well, 0:04:58.480 --> 0:05:01.080 get quite emotional a lot of times, was saying, you know, 0:05:01.360 --> 0:05:04.800 just because you're anti CCP doesn't give you an excuse 0:05:04.839 --> 0:05:06.920 to rip people off. Doesn't it give you an excuse 0:05:07.000 --> 0:05:09.919 to commit fraud either. So they were some of the 0:05:09.960 --> 0:05:13.240 most powerful I think prosecution witnesses. We also heard from 0:05:13.320 --> 0:05:17.360 luxury car dealers who sold Malsgow or his companies these 0:05:17.480 --> 0:05:20.520 extremely expensive and rare cars as well. What are the 0:05:20.520 --> 0:05:24.000 other witnesses was a managing director at a hedge fund 0:05:24.120 --> 0:05:27.719 run by Kyle Bass. Miles Glow had transferred one hundred 0:05:27.760 --> 0:05:31.719 million dollars, which prosecution said was stolen from investors to 0:05:31.960 --> 0:05:36.279 one of Kyle Bass's hedge funds. Interestingly, he was actually 0:05:36.279 --> 0:05:40.599 acquitted of three chargers, and those three charges relate to 0:05:41.080 --> 0:05:45.599 the stock offering in GTV, the social media platform company, 0:05:45.800 --> 0:05:48.479 and the one hundred million dollar transfer to the Hedge Fund. 0:05:48.640 --> 0:05:51.640 On the defense side, Milesglow didn't get on the witness 0:05:51.640 --> 0:05:55.000 stand himself, but the witnesses that they called all sort 0:05:55.040 --> 0:05:59.279 of spoke to Milescow's position as a political activist and 0:05:59.560 --> 0:06:03.880 why he felt so strongly about speaking out against the ECP, that. 0:06:04.000 --> 0:06:07.120 Being the Chinese Communist Party and he was friends with 0:06:07.200 --> 0:06:10.400 Trump advisor Steve Bannon, who got a million dollar payment 0:06:10.480 --> 0:06:14.360 from one of Guo's companies and was arrested on Guo's yacht. Now, 0:06:14.560 --> 0:06:17.680 the prosecution played for the jury a secretly recorded phone 0:06:17.720 --> 0:06:21.520 call between Guo and his subordinates in twenty twenty one. 0:06:21.760 --> 0:06:22.719 What did that show? 0:06:23.480 --> 0:06:27.039 Yes, the prosecution in its closing address to the jury, 0:06:27.200 --> 0:06:31.400 opened with this quite dramatic phone call recording. Before the 0:06:31.440 --> 0:06:34.599 prosecutor even started speaking, he just pressed the play button 0:06:34.880 --> 0:06:37.919 and this recording played out across the courtroom and you 0:06:37.960 --> 0:06:42.360 could hear Miles Glow yelling at some of his employees. 0:06:42.520 --> 0:06:44.919 He was speaking with some of his staff and the 0:06:44.960 --> 0:06:47.839 discussion was around the transfer of money from one of 0:06:47.880 --> 0:06:53.120 Milesclow's entities to somewhere else, and one of Milesglow's employees 0:06:53.240 --> 0:06:54.919 was saying like, hang on, we need to go to 0:06:54.960 --> 0:06:56.880 the board with this, and then all of a sudden 0:06:56.960 --> 0:07:01.599 you can hear Miles Glow who's speaking. Amendorin translation was 0:07:01.640 --> 0:07:05.720 included in subtitles before the jury. He's yelling at his employee, 0:07:05.720 --> 0:07:08.520 calling them a scumbag, telling them to go to hell, 0:07:08.720 --> 0:07:10.560 telling them to shut the hell up. So it was 0:07:10.640 --> 0:07:12.920 quite dramatic, and what the prosecution was trying to do 0:07:12.960 --> 0:07:17.120 there was say to the jury. Milesgow might sound very 0:07:17.320 --> 0:07:21.400 reasonable and softly spoken and almost at times demure and 0:07:21.480 --> 0:07:24.600 calm in his videos that many of his followers and 0:07:24.640 --> 0:07:27.720 investors have seen, but you know behind the scenes he 0:07:27.760 --> 0:07:31.720 could be quite brash and abusive to his employees. 0:07:32.320 --> 0:07:35.200 His supporters were in the courtroom every day, a lot 0:07:35.240 --> 0:07:36.120 of his supporters. 0:07:36.560 --> 0:07:40.640 Yes, every single day, the court was packed with his supporters. 0:07:40.840 --> 0:07:43.960 There must have been anywhere between thirty and forty people 0:07:44.640 --> 0:07:47.840 every single day. Without a doubt, they would file in there. 0:07:48.200 --> 0:07:51.280 Some of them were wearing T shirts or jackets or 0:07:51.320 --> 0:07:54.920 scarves with the G Fashion logo on it, and G 0:07:55.160 --> 0:08:00.680 Fashion was another one of Milesglow's companies, so you could 0:08:00.680 --> 0:08:03.160 tell that they were very, very supportive of him. Every 0:08:03.200 --> 0:08:05.400 time he was walking to the courtroom and they would 0:08:05.400 --> 0:08:07.880 all sort of wave and smile at him, and at 0:08:07.880 --> 0:08:10.600 different points throughout the trial days he would turn around, 0:08:10.680 --> 0:08:13.280 he would look at the public gallery and give everyone 0:08:13.320 --> 0:08:15.760 a smile. It was quite amazing to see them turn 0:08:15.840 --> 0:08:18.960 up every single day over the course of almost two months. 0:08:19.400 --> 0:08:23.280 Towards the end of the trial, there were also some detractors, 0:08:23.480 --> 0:08:25.000 so there was a little bit of tension in the 0:08:25.000 --> 0:08:27.760 courtroom and you could see towards the end there there 0:08:27.760 --> 0:08:31.400 were more US Marshals turning up to make sure everyone 0:08:31.480 --> 0:08:35.280 was sort of behaving themselves, and the court security officers 0:08:34.800 --> 0:08:38.240 were making sure that they were talking to these people 0:08:38.280 --> 0:08:41.400 and telling them to be respectful of the environment that 0:08:41.440 --> 0:08:44.199 they were in. Once the verdict was handed down, we 0:08:44.200 --> 0:08:47.280 were expecting some sort of emotions and tensions to boil over, 0:08:47.679 --> 0:08:50.920 but everyone was very calm. Even Malesgow himself was very calm, 0:08:51.080 --> 0:08:53.520 you know. If anything, he was comforting his lawyers, who 0:08:53.520 --> 0:08:55.720 fought very hard for him and put up a pretty 0:08:55.720 --> 0:08:58.760 good case throughout his trial. He hugged one of his 0:08:58.840 --> 0:09:02.000 defense lawyers, was shaking the hands of the others for 0:09:02.120 --> 0:09:04.920 he was led away. One for his supporters got outside 0:09:04.920 --> 0:09:07.360 the courthouse. There was a little bit of yelling and 0:09:07.440 --> 0:09:10.960 back and forth outside the court building, and some of 0:09:10.960 --> 0:09:13.040 the US marshals had to step in and tell them 0:09:13.200 --> 0:09:16.120 just to calm down. So, yeah, it was quite impressive 0:09:16.120 --> 0:09:17.840 to see the people that turned out to support him 0:09:17.880 --> 0:09:18.520 every single day. 0:09:18.720 --> 0:09:22.560 And something very unusual here the judge kept the names 0:09:22.640 --> 0:09:26.400 of the juror's secret. What was the reason for that. 0:09:26.400 --> 0:09:28.960 That's right before the trial began, there were arguments on 0:09:29.000 --> 0:09:32.480 both sides as to why there should be an anonymous jury, 0:09:32.559 --> 0:09:35.640 and this is quite an unusual step that the prosecution 0:09:35.800 --> 0:09:39.600 had argued that the jurors were potentially at risk if 0:09:39.600 --> 0:09:43.960 they were identified because of the very strong and loyal 0:09:44.120 --> 0:09:46.719 supporter base that Milgo had and they were a bit 0:09:46.760 --> 0:09:50.320 worried about and maybe retaliation, whereas the defense had argued 0:09:50.360 --> 0:09:53.400 that yes, the jury should be made anonymous, but the 0:09:53.520 --> 0:09:57.320 risk was coming from the CCP. So the judge didn't 0:09:57.440 --> 0:10:00.960 rule either way, but she said that yees essentially because 0:10:01.000 --> 0:10:04.080 this case has attracted so much intense interest, that the 0:10:04.160 --> 0:10:07.720 jury should remain anonymous. And they were escorted by US 0:10:07.720 --> 0:10:10.480 marshals to the court each day and. 0:10:10.640 --> 0:10:13.600 They deliberated over four days, but they had to start again. 0:10:14.440 --> 0:10:17.400 Yes, they started, and then were a few hours in 0:10:17.559 --> 0:10:21.040 before one of the jurors let it slip in deliberations 0:10:21.080 --> 0:10:25.079 that they had googled the name of the co defendant, 0:10:25.240 --> 0:10:28.160 a man called William g who is actually still at large. 0:10:28.200 --> 0:10:28.600 He was a. 0:10:28.520 --> 0:10:31.920 Financial advisor to Mirs Glow and featured prominently throughout the trial. 0:10:32.200 --> 0:10:34.079 And then the jury four person wrote a letter to 0:10:34.120 --> 0:10:37.080 the judge saying, you know, we've got a problem here. Now, 0:10:37.160 --> 0:10:39.840 this is sort of jury service one O one. You're 0:10:39.920 --> 0:10:44.880 not to read any external news article about the case 0:10:44.960 --> 0:10:48.400 that you're serving on the jury of You're not to google, 0:10:48.559 --> 0:10:50.920 certainly anyone that's mentioned in the case or do your 0:10:50.960 --> 0:10:53.920 own research. So everyone sort of held their breath when 0:10:53.920 --> 0:10:56.679 the judge read out that letter, and you know, we're warried, 0:10:56.800 --> 0:10:59.320 is this going to be a mistrial? But fortunately they 0:10:59.360 --> 0:11:02.200 were able to just excuse that dura that did the 0:11:02.280 --> 0:11:06.040 googling and bring in an alternate and they started deliberations again. 0:11:06.200 --> 0:11:10.520 So that jury deliberated for about three days until they 0:11:10.520 --> 0:11:11.360 came to a verdict. 0:11:11.760 --> 0:11:14.760 You always have to have those alternate's ready. So he's 0:11:14.800 --> 0:11:18.199 going to be standards on November nineteenth, how much time. 0:11:18.040 --> 0:11:21.079 Does he face even though he was acquitted on three 0:11:21.320 --> 0:11:24.480 out of the twelfth counts. He still faces decades in 0:11:24.600 --> 0:11:28.439 jail for the most serious charges, the fraud charges, the 0:11:28.520 --> 0:11:33.240 racketeering conspiracy. He faces up to twenty years each on 0:11:33.360 --> 0:11:37.080 those counts. So he's definitely facing a long period in prison. 0:11:37.360 --> 0:11:39.760 And because he is a Chinese citizen, you know, he 0:11:39.800 --> 0:11:43.079 faces extradition back to China as well, and there is 0:11:43.520 --> 0:11:46.600 an Interpol red notice out for him issued by the 0:11:46.679 --> 0:11:49.840 Chinese government. So his troubles will I think continue once 0:11:49.880 --> 0:11:50.960 his release from prison. 0:11:50.840 --> 0:11:52.880 And he's already been in prison for more than a 0:11:52.960 --> 0:11:56.160 year now. Thanks so much, Ava. That's Bloomberg Legal reporter 0:11:56.240 --> 0:12:00.360 Ava Benny Morrison coming up the ramifications of this Supreme 0:12:00.400 --> 0:12:05.360 Court's decision on homelessness. This is Bloomberg. For the first 0:12:05.400 --> 0:12:08.760 time in four decades this term, the Supreme Court ruled 0:12:08.760 --> 0:12:13.040 on homelessness, and the ramifications of that decision are already 0:12:13.080 --> 0:12:16.560 being felt across the country. In a decision split down 0:12:16.640 --> 0:12:22.800 ideological lines, the Court's conservative majority reinstated in Oregon city's 0:12:22.880 --> 0:12:28.000 law banning homeless residents from sleeping outside in public places. Now, 0:12:28.040 --> 0:12:31.600 cities across the country are weighing their policies, and some 0:12:31.720 --> 0:12:35.280 are preparing to take a harder line on homeless encampments. 0:12:36.160 --> 0:12:39.200 Joining me is Sanita Patel, a professor at UCLA Law 0:12:39.240 --> 0:12:42.520 School and the founding director of the UCLA Law Veterans 0:12:42.600 --> 0:12:45.720 Legal Clinic. She co authored an amicust brief in the 0:12:45.720 --> 0:12:49.440 case with the National Coalition for Homeless Veterans that was 0:12:49.520 --> 0:12:53.480 quoted by Justice Sonya Sotomayor in her descent. What was 0:12:53.520 --> 0:12:55.840 at stake in the Grant's past case. 0:12:56.720 --> 0:13:00.840 The Supreme Court was deciding whether or not to allow 0:13:01.400 --> 0:13:05.040 punishment for homeless people with no access to shelter who 0:13:05.040 --> 0:13:08.760 were sleeping outside was as little as a blanket or 0:13:08.800 --> 0:13:12.120 a bald up shirt for a pillow. And what was 0:13:12.440 --> 0:13:16.360 behind all of this was a prior Ninth Circuit decision 0:13:16.480 --> 0:13:21.360 called Boise versus Martin, where the Ninth Circuit had said, okay, 0:13:21.600 --> 0:13:27.480 cities and states can use restrictions on when, how and 0:13:27.880 --> 0:13:33.720 where unhoused folks can sleep outside, but they can't criminalize 0:13:33.800 --> 0:13:38.880 activities like sleeping outside or eating outside, as Justice Brown 0:13:38.920 --> 0:13:43.600 poised out, if there is no alternative, reasonable place to sleep. 0:13:43.760 --> 0:13:46.599 So when you had no adequate shelter space, there was 0:13:46.600 --> 0:13:48.760 a lot of hand ringing by the cities and the 0:13:48.800 --> 0:13:52.959 states saying that they weren't able to enforce the laws 0:13:53.000 --> 0:13:56.200 well enough. And what we see with the Grant's past 0:13:56.280 --> 0:13:58.320 decision is that the core kind of buys into the 0:13:58.400 --> 0:14:01.760 unnecessary hand ringing from the cities and states that weighed 0:14:01.760 --> 0:14:05.080 in because they were complaining that the Ninth Circuit's prior 0:14:05.120 --> 0:14:09.920 decision in Martin tied their hands from enforcing anti camping laws. 0:14:10.080 --> 0:14:12.840 And so why did the court come to the conclusion 0:14:12.880 --> 0:14:15.800 that this wasn't cruel and unusual punishment? 0:14:16.440 --> 0:14:20.000 The Court was really looking at whether or not these 0:14:20.160 --> 0:14:25.040 ordinances from Grant's Pass Oregon criminalized and punished homeless people 0:14:25.080 --> 0:14:28.640 for the status of being homeless, or whether it was 0:14:28.680 --> 0:14:32.240 for actions associated with being homeless. And so you see 0:14:32.280 --> 0:14:36.320 this interesting play in the majority and the dissent where 0:14:36.560 --> 0:14:39.200 the majority says, well, you know, this is a punishment 0:14:39.440 --> 0:14:42.520 not of status, but of actions that people are doing. 0:14:42.600 --> 0:14:47.200 This is not actually a case that falls squarely within 0:14:47.360 --> 0:14:50.680 the prior precedent called Robinson, which had been in place 0:14:50.760 --> 0:14:55.280 for fifty years already. And the court decided that the 0:14:55.320 --> 0:14:59.760 punishments here were not actually cruel, that they were not. 0:15:00.280 --> 0:15:01.560 So that's what they decided. 0:15:01.880 --> 0:15:06.720 And just as Sonya Sotomayor's descent had some emotional overtones 0:15:07.040 --> 0:15:09.640 in describing the crisis of homelessness. 0:15:09.680 --> 0:15:12.920 Well, you know, I think that for many people in 0:15:12.960 --> 0:15:15.800 this country, the idea of living on the streets is 0:15:16.040 --> 0:15:19.040 quite a stark reality, especially if you've lived on the 0:15:19.040 --> 0:15:21.320 West Coast or she's from New York City. In the Bronx, 0:15:21.680 --> 0:15:26.040 you see the plight of unhoused folks on a daily basis, 0:15:26.160 --> 0:15:30.239 and in those circumstances were left to think, well, how 0:15:30.320 --> 0:15:34.240 can it not be cool to require someone to sleep 0:15:34.360 --> 0:15:37.960 on the streets without even a blanket in the cold 0:15:38.000 --> 0:15:41.040 winter of Grant's past and have nowhere else to go? 0:15:41.600 --> 0:15:44.280 So here, you know, I thought she actually did a 0:15:44.360 --> 0:15:47.880 very careful analysis of the purpose, the text, and the 0:15:48.000 --> 0:15:51.840 enforcement of the Grants ordinances. I agreed with how she 0:15:52.040 --> 0:15:56.560 showed the ordinances actually criminalized status. Right, So the action 0:15:56.880 --> 0:16:03.040 of sleeping outside is something that necessarily defines the status 0:16:03.040 --> 0:16:07.800 of being unhoused, and it is a human biological need. 0:16:08.680 --> 0:16:11.120 Another thing that she points out, which is what the 0:16:11.240 --> 0:16:14.480 Ninth Circuit pointed to as well, is that the Martin 0:16:14.560 --> 0:16:19.880 decision left open lots of ways to regulate homelessness. So 0:16:20.400 --> 0:16:24.600 you're still able to find or ticket someone because you 0:16:24.680 --> 0:16:28.360 don't like where they're sleeping. You're still able to sign 0:16:28.480 --> 0:16:32.760 or ticket someone if they are intoxicated in a public area, 0:16:32.840 --> 0:16:35.920 if they're urinating a public area, if they're obstructing an 0:16:36.120 --> 0:16:39.760 entryway or panhandling. You know, there's a host of petty 0:16:39.760 --> 0:16:43.960 offenses that you can still enforce. It was really just 0:16:44.160 --> 0:16:48.360 this idea of sleeping outside at night with a small covering, 0:16:49.440 --> 0:16:54.440 which literally defines being unhoused, that was in front of 0:16:54.440 --> 0:16:58.640 the court. What they decided was that in order to 0:16:59.320 --> 0:17:02.480 apply the Eighth Amendment Cruel and Unusual Punishment clause, it 0:17:02.520 --> 0:17:06.639 would need to extend the prior Robinson ruling sort of 0:17:06.680 --> 0:17:11.760 extended slightly around the status offense. And luckily they said 0:17:12.160 --> 0:17:15.359 Robinson is still the law of the land right now, 0:17:15.440 --> 0:17:18.280 which is good. It's been a president that's been around 0:17:18.359 --> 0:17:21.600 for decades, and when the court of precedent it can 0:17:21.720 --> 0:17:23.280 turn things on its head, and. 0:17:23.200 --> 0:17:25.520 We've seen that a lot in the last few terms. 0:17:26.040 --> 0:17:28.920 In Grant's pass, were they actually arresting people who were 0:17:28.960 --> 0:17:31.320 sleeping outside at night, Yes. 0:17:31.200 --> 0:17:34.440 That's my understanding. The two plaintiffs in this case, they 0:17:34.480 --> 0:17:39.680 were cited for and find and eventually excluded from the city, 0:17:40.040 --> 0:17:42.679 but they were sleeping in cars. The definition of camping 0:17:43.240 --> 0:17:46.280 in the Grands Pass Organance includes sleeping in any vehicle. 0:17:46.760 --> 0:17:50.040 How do you think this decision will affect homeless veterans. 0:17:50.600 --> 0:17:52.919 Yes, that's a very good question. So you see, a 0:17:52.960 --> 0:17:57.040 Veteran's Legal Clinic worked on behalf of the Coalition for 0:17:57.160 --> 0:17:59.879 Homeless Veterans, and we filed an amicist brief in the 0:17:59.880 --> 0:18:05.359 case that Justice Sotomayor did cite briefly, and we really 0:18:05.560 --> 0:18:08.760 presented the picture of what it's like to be an 0:18:08.800 --> 0:18:14.360 unhoused veterans, the complications that come with acquiring work, or 0:18:14.400 --> 0:18:18.120 receiving your medications, or finding your social worker. But when 0:18:18.160 --> 0:18:21.119 you sleep outside and you're being shuffled around because of 0:18:21.160 --> 0:18:25.120 criminalization efforts, because of police enforcement. And so this decision 0:18:25.280 --> 0:18:27.880 is going to affect veterans in the same way it's 0:18:27.880 --> 0:18:31.600 going to affect other on housed populations, on house communities. 0:18:31.880 --> 0:18:34.399 We will see the veterans that we represent, the veterans 0:18:34.440 --> 0:18:39.040 around the country getting moved around, unable to locate and 0:18:39.119 --> 0:18:43.640 connect with their service providers, lose their medications, lose their paperwork. 0:18:44.200 --> 0:18:46.960 All of these things make it extremely difficult for them 0:18:47.040 --> 0:18:53.320 to obtain permanent housing, even in a resource rich system 0:18:53.720 --> 0:18:57.399 like the VA, where there are lots of options and 0:18:57.720 --> 0:19:01.400 different ways for individuals to the comme house and get 0:19:01.400 --> 0:19:03.680 connected to housing and justice. 0:19:03.680 --> 0:19:06.840 Sodo Mayor, in quoting from your Brief and her Descent, 0:19:07.600 --> 0:19:12.840 talked about Aaron Spencer, a disabled Marine Corps veteran. Tell 0:19:12.920 --> 0:19:13.639 us what she said. 0:19:14.119 --> 0:19:16.879 You know, she's discussing how diverse the veteran community is 0:19:16.960 --> 0:19:21.240 and how this decision is unfortunately going to affect marginalized 0:19:21.240 --> 0:19:25.600 and vulnerable populations more. We know that, for example, thirty 0:19:25.600 --> 0:19:29.440 seven percent of the homeless community is black, even though 0:19:29.440 --> 0:19:32.280 they're thirteen percent of the general population, and because of 0:19:32.320 --> 0:19:36.119 structural racism lack of access to housing and jobs, we 0:19:36.240 --> 0:19:39.199 have this racial disparity when it comes to veterans. We 0:19:39.320 --> 0:19:44.119 also have a pretty stark disparity for unsheltered veterans in 0:19:44.160 --> 0:19:46.880 comparison to the veteran population the general population. 0:19:47.280 --> 0:19:48.200 And so here she's. 0:19:48.040 --> 0:19:51.600 Pointing out that veterans are more likely to become homeless 0:19:51.880 --> 0:19:55.000 if they have served in combat, if they have PTSD, 0:19:55.760 --> 0:19:59.359 And she talks about the case of Aaron Spenser, who 0:19:59.480 --> 0:20:03.080 is a disable Bold Marine Corps veteran, and he was 0:20:03.320 --> 0:20:07.080 putting his tools and his bike parts and other things 0:20:07.119 --> 0:20:10.320 that he uses to make money on the side in 0:20:10.440 --> 0:20:15.040 a cart, and then he was arrested repeatedly for illegal lodgings, 0:20:15.200 --> 0:20:17.640 for being on the streets, and every time his car 0:20:17.760 --> 0:20:21.080 and his belongings they were taken away. And you know, 0:20:21.119 --> 0:20:23.639 she quotes him saying, the massive number of times the 0:20:23.680 --> 0:20:26.520 city or state has taken all I possessed leaves me 0:20:26.680 --> 0:20:31.000 in a macuous daja zoo. And this is really indicative 0:20:31.080 --> 0:20:35.080 of the stories that we hear from unhoused veterans and 0:20:35.160 --> 0:20:38.560 unhoused people in general. There's this sense of I don't 0:20:38.600 --> 0:20:40.080 know when I wake up, am I going to be 0:20:40.119 --> 0:20:42.080 able to sleep here or not? Are my things going 0:20:42.119 --> 0:20:45.199 to be taken? Am I going to be facing some 0:20:45.359 --> 0:20:48.719 bureaucratic nightmare today as I try to access services and 0:20:48.840 --> 0:20:52.240 food and shelter and just the basic human needs. 0:20:52.400 --> 0:20:55.719 How does this opinion leave you feeling as an advocate 0:20:56.119 --> 0:20:59.479 for homeless veterans rather than as a lawyer. 0:21:00.080 --> 0:21:04.760 I am doing a research project on homelessness in La County, 0:21:05.359 --> 0:21:09.000 and you know, I think this idea of the cycle 0:21:09.200 --> 0:21:11.800 of moving in and out the majority opinions sort of 0:21:11.840 --> 0:21:15.640 suggests that well, police are really on the front lines 0:21:15.760 --> 0:21:19.679 of protecting our un housed folks and getting them into services. 0:21:20.119 --> 0:21:22.919 I mean, it's just not the lived reality of the 0:21:22.960 --> 0:21:26.080 people we speak to, and that is really a problem. 0:21:26.119 --> 0:21:30.040 I think when the Supreme Court doesn't recognize the wealth 0:21:30.080 --> 0:21:33.560 of research, social science and other research that's out there, 0:21:33.600 --> 0:21:37.399 but instead is quoting from the Sheriff's Association brief on 0:21:37.800 --> 0:21:41.040 the work that they do to help connect veterans, that's 0:21:41.119 --> 0:21:43.919 one thing that is a bit of a problem. But 0:21:44.040 --> 0:21:46.240 I'm hopeful that there are other ways for us to 0:21:46.320 --> 0:21:49.760 challenge these laws. I mean, as an advocate, we always say, well, 0:21:49.880 --> 0:21:53.080 the fight's going to continue, right, So the court left 0:21:53.160 --> 0:21:56.879 open lots of other ways to challenge really problematic laws. 0:21:57.000 --> 0:22:00.320 We have the do process clause. There's several claims there. 0:22:00.400 --> 0:22:05.119 There's also in Dan's past there is a provision on 0:22:05.200 --> 0:22:09.000 the fines and Fees clause excessive punishment clause that is 0:22:09.040 --> 0:22:12.480 still a live challenge that's in front of the district Court. 0:22:13.160 --> 0:22:16.600 The city didn't appeal the loss that they have faced 0:22:16.680 --> 0:22:20.080 on that claim because they really couldn't. I mean, the 0:22:20.640 --> 0:22:24.359 punishment that they're seeking again someone for sleeping outside is 0:22:24.640 --> 0:22:27.960 so excessive and beyond the pale that they would have 0:22:28.040 --> 0:22:31.399 lost clearly, and so they didn't even challenge that. So 0:22:31.560 --> 0:22:35.600 advocates can raise those claims. Advocates can also raise other 0:22:35.680 --> 0:22:40.160 claims like vagueness challenges. There are some other ways to 0:22:40.200 --> 0:22:44.720 continue the sort of legal challenges. Now that's me being 0:22:44.760 --> 0:22:47.919 an optimist. The reality is that I think that this 0:22:48.160 --> 0:22:53.840 is just going to clear the groundwork for more police actions, 0:22:53.840 --> 0:22:58.639 more coercive activity, and ultimately that is not going to 0:22:58.720 --> 0:23:02.240 actually solve the problem in the crisis of homelessness that 0:23:02.280 --> 0:23:06.560 we're facing today. There are proven solutions. Obviously, we need 0:23:06.600 --> 0:23:10.040 more affordable housing. We need more access to the resources 0:23:10.080 --> 0:23:13.840 that will help people not only become housed, but stay housed, 0:23:13.920 --> 0:23:16.800 because there's a problematic, kind of cyclical effect if you 0:23:16.840 --> 0:23:20.439 stay homeless, if you have these tickets, you know, they 0:23:20.520 --> 0:23:23.560 affect your credit, and then when your credit is bad, 0:23:23.720 --> 0:23:25.920 you can't find a house. I mean, this is all 0:23:26.040 --> 0:23:29.320 very connected, and so you know, unfortunately we had the 0:23:29.480 --> 0:23:33.120 LAPD already has tweeted that, you know, now we can 0:23:33.160 --> 0:23:34.840 do what we want sort of thing, and I think that, 0:23:34.960 --> 0:23:38.359 unfortunately that's going to be the law enforcement mentality rather 0:23:38.440 --> 0:23:41.199