1 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:08,000 Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Law with June Brusso from Bloomberg Radio. 2 00:00:10,360 --> 00:00:14,720 Speaker 1: After a trial that lasted almost two months, exiled Chinese 3 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:19,080 Speaker 1: tycoon Guo Wangui was convicted of a massive fraud and 4 00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:22,639 Speaker 1: duping investors out of one billion dollars to fund his 5 00:00:22,760 --> 00:00:27,200 Speaker 1: lavish lifestyle. Quo's criticism of the Communist Party won him 6 00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:31,640 Speaker 1: legions of online followers, and prosecutors say he fleeced those 7 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:36,040 Speaker 1: loyal followers out of their money for seemingly legitimate businesses 8 00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:39,279 Speaker 1: and then diverted the funds to himself so he could 9 00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:42,839 Speaker 1: spend his days living in his twenty six million dollar mansion, 10 00:00:43,240 --> 00:00:46,760 Speaker 1: lounging on his thirty seven million dollar yacht, driving his 11 00:00:46,920 --> 00:00:50,640 Speaker 1: million dollar red Lamborghini, not to mention a four million 12 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:53,880 Speaker 1: dollar Ferrari for his son, a more than one million 13 00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:58,600 Speaker 1: dollar jewelry box, and other extravagant purchases. Joining me is 14 00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:01,800 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Legal reporter av Benny Morrison, who covered the trial, 15 00:01:02,080 --> 00:01:05,840 Speaker 1: ava the jury convicted him of fraud and racketeering nine 16 00:01:05,880 --> 00:01:09,319 Speaker 1: counts out of twelve. Tell us about the prosecution's case. 17 00:01:09,959 --> 00:01:14,120 Speaker 2: Marsgow was charged with twelve different offenses related to a 18 00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:17,720 Speaker 2: scheme to defraud investors out of a billion dollars. Prosecutors 19 00:01:17,720 --> 00:01:21,080 Speaker 2: alleged that he did this in a number of smaller schemes, 20 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:24,880 Speaker 2: one related to a cryptocurrency exchange, another related to a 21 00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:28,920 Speaker 2: farm to lians program, and an exclusive membership club called 22 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:32,800 Speaker 2: G Clubs. The allegation was that he really pried on 23 00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:36,240 Speaker 2: his followers, that he had a mass through his anti 24 00:01:36,560 --> 00:01:41,000 Speaker 2: Chinese Communist Party campaign, A lot of people online gravitated 25 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:45,440 Speaker 2: towards his online videos and his very outspoken critical statements 26 00:01:45,480 --> 00:01:48,480 Speaker 2: against the Chinese government, and then he appealed to them 27 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:52,120 Speaker 2: to invest money in the various business opportunities. The prosecution 28 00:01:52,240 --> 00:01:54,360 Speaker 2: said that he took a lot of this money, more 29 00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:56,720 Speaker 2: than a billion dollars, and spent it on himself and 30 00:01:56,800 --> 00:01:57,440 Speaker 2: his family. 31 00:01:58,240 --> 00:02:03,279 Speaker 1: He had incredible wealth, he flaunted, and the prosecution spent 32 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:07,240 Speaker 1: some time on showing how he spent his money. 33 00:02:07,520 --> 00:02:10,560 Speaker 2: Yes, the prosecution said that he spent a lot of 34 00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:14,960 Speaker 2: investor funds on enriching himself and his family. So that 35 00:02:15,040 --> 00:02:18,160 Speaker 2: included a twenty six million dollar mansion in New Jersey, 36 00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:22,560 Speaker 2: a red Lamborghini, a Ferrari for his son, a sixty 37 00:02:22,600 --> 00:02:27,000 Speaker 2: thousand dollars TV, ridiculously expend his mattresses, all of those 38 00:02:27,160 --> 00:02:31,400 Speaker 2: luxuries that went into living a very opulent lifestyle. The 39 00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:34,480 Speaker 2: defense came back and said, look, he is used to 40 00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:37,400 Speaker 2: this lifestyle. He came from a really wealthy family of 41 00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:41,079 Speaker 2: properties developers in China. And while most people might think 42 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:44,440 Speaker 2: it's outrageous to spend thirty five thousand dollars on a mattress, 43 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:47,680 Speaker 2: these were things that Musglow was used to. He's always argued, 44 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:49,480 Speaker 2: and he shouldn't be judged for that. 45 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:54,080 Speaker 1: His crusade against the Communist Party, What part did that 46 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:55,520 Speaker 1: play in the trial? 47 00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:59,919 Speaker 2: It was a big argument that the defense put forward. 48 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:02,120 Speaker 2: So they tried to paint him as someone who had 49 00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:06,000 Speaker 2: devoted his life to the whistleblower movement and put himself 50 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:09,400 Speaker 2: in grave danger because of that. They said that he 51 00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:13,760 Speaker 2: was an unapologetic critic of the Chinese government and fled 52 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:17,080 Speaker 2: persecution in China to the US, where he sought political 53 00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:20,440 Speaker 2: asylum in twenty seventeen. And the defense said that he 54 00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:24,360 Speaker 2: had been the target of retaliation by the Chinese government. 55 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:27,040 Speaker 2: They'd tried to extradite him back to China a few 56 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:30,239 Speaker 2: years ago, that hacked into his bank account, his phones, 57 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:33,120 Speaker 2: his laptop. They said that he had put himself at 58 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:36,400 Speaker 2: great risk and painted him as of this brave political 59 00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:41,120 Speaker 2: crusader and an activist. The government essentially suggested that this 60 00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:43,240 Speaker 2: was all a bit of a front and even if 61 00:03:43,240 --> 00:03:45,960 Speaker 2: he was a political activist, it didn't have anything to 62 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:48,520 Speaker 2: do with the crux of the case, which was that 63 00:03:48,880 --> 00:03:51,400 Speaker 2: he defrauded a lot of investors out of a lot 64 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:51,880 Speaker 2: of money. 65 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:55,360 Speaker 1: A two month trial start with the prosecution what kinds 66 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:57,760 Speaker 1: of witnesses which were the most effective. 67 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:02,600 Speaker 2: The most effective witnesses were some of the investors themselves 68 00:04:02,600 --> 00:04:06,839 Speaker 2: that the prosecution called. They described investing money in some 69 00:04:06,880 --> 00:04:11,200 Speaker 2: of Milesgow's businesses and his companies like GTV Media, which 70 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:14,560 Speaker 2: was a social media platform on g clubs, the exclusive 71 00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:17,240 Speaker 2: members only club, the farm to Loan program, and a 72 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:21,600 Speaker 2: crypto exchange. They said that they gravitated towards Miles Glow's 73 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:25,480 Speaker 2: videos where he was critical of the Chinese government. Some 74 00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:28,320 Speaker 2: of those videos he recorded in the penthouse at the 75 00:04:28,640 --> 00:04:32,359 Speaker 2: famous Sherry Nedeline hotel that overlooks Central Park in Manhattan, 76 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:35,240 Speaker 2: or on the deck of his one hundred and fifty 77 00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:39,480 Speaker 2: two foot super yacht, which was often maud Off the Posters, Connecticut, 78 00:04:39,480 --> 00:04:41,760 Speaker 2: where he had another house so some of these investors 79 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:45,200 Speaker 2: spoke about how they admired him and they believed in 80 00:04:45,279 --> 00:04:48,360 Speaker 2: what he was saying and were on the same page 81 00:04:48,480 --> 00:04:50,719 Speaker 2: as he was when it came to beaking out against 82 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:53,360 Speaker 2: the Chinese government. So they felt comfortable in investing their 83 00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:55,680 Speaker 2: money with him. But then they never got it back. 84 00:04:55,839 --> 00:04:58,440 Speaker 2: And I remember one witness being on the stand too well, 85 00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:01,080 Speaker 2: get quite emotional a lot of times, was saying, you know, 86 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:04,800 Speaker 2: just because you're anti CCP doesn't give you an excuse 87 00:05:04,839 --> 00:05:06,920 Speaker 2: to rip people off. Doesn't it give you an excuse 88 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:09,919 Speaker 2: to commit fraud either. So they were some of the 89 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:13,240 Speaker 2: most powerful I think prosecution witnesses. We also heard from 90 00:05:13,320 --> 00:05:17,360 Speaker 2: luxury car dealers who sold Malsgow or his companies these 91 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:20,520 Speaker 2: extremely expensive and rare cars as well. What are the 92 00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:24,000 Speaker 2: other witnesses was a managing director at a hedge fund 93 00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:27,719 Speaker 2: run by Kyle Bass. Miles Glow had transferred one hundred 94 00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:31,719 Speaker 2: million dollars, which prosecution said was stolen from investors to 95 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:36,279 Speaker 2: one of Kyle Bass's hedge funds. Interestingly, he was actually 96 00:05:36,279 --> 00:05:40,599 Speaker 2: acquitted of three chargers, and those three charges relate to 97 00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:45,599 Speaker 2: the stock offering in GTV, the social media platform company, 98 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:48,479 Speaker 2: and the one hundred million dollar transfer to the Hedge Fund. 99 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:51,640 Speaker 2: On the defense side, Milesglow didn't get on the witness 100 00:05:51,640 --> 00:05:55,000 Speaker 2: stand himself, but the witnesses that they called all sort 101 00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:59,279 Speaker 2: of spoke to Milescow's position as a political activist and 102 00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:03,880 Speaker 2: why he felt so strongly about speaking out against the ECP, that. 103 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:07,120 Speaker 1: Being the Chinese Communist Party and he was friends with 104 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:10,400 Speaker 1: Trump advisor Steve Bannon, who got a million dollar payment 105 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:14,360 Speaker 1: from one of Guo's companies and was arrested on Guo's yacht. Now, 106 00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:17,680 Speaker 1: the prosecution played for the jury a secretly recorded phone 107 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:21,520 Speaker 1: call between Guo and his subordinates in twenty twenty one. 108 00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:22,719 Speaker 1: What did that show? 109 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:27,039 Speaker 2: Yes, the prosecution in its closing address to the jury, 110 00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:31,400 Speaker 2: opened with this quite dramatic phone call recording. Before the 111 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:34,599 Speaker 2: prosecutor even started speaking, he just pressed the play button 112 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:37,919 Speaker 2: and this recording played out across the courtroom and you 113 00:06:37,960 --> 00:06:42,360 Speaker 2: could hear Miles Glow yelling at some of his employees. 114 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:44,919 Speaker 2: He was speaking with some of his staff and the 115 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:47,839 Speaker 2: discussion was around the transfer of money from one of 116 00:06:47,880 --> 00:06:53,120 Speaker 2: Milesclow's entities to somewhere else, and one of Milesglow's employees 117 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:54,919 Speaker 2: was saying like, hang on, we need to go to 118 00:06:54,960 --> 00:06:56,880 Speaker 2: the board with this, and then all of a sudden 119 00:06:56,960 --> 00:07:01,599 Speaker 2: you can hear Miles Glow who's speaking. Amendorin translation was 120 00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:05,720 Speaker 2: included in subtitles before the jury. He's yelling at his employee, 121 00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:08,520 Speaker 2: calling them a scumbag, telling them to go to hell, 122 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:10,560 Speaker 2: telling them to shut the hell up. So it was 123 00:07:10,640 --> 00:07:12,920 Speaker 2: quite dramatic, and what the prosecution was trying to do 124 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:17,120 Speaker 2: there was say to the jury. Milesgow might sound very 125 00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:21,400 Speaker 2: reasonable and softly spoken and almost at times demure and 126 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:24,600 Speaker 2: calm in his videos that many of his followers and 127 00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:27,720 Speaker 2: investors have seen, but you know behind the scenes he 128 00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:31,720 Speaker 2: could be quite brash and abusive to his employees. 129 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:35,200 Speaker 1: His supporters were in the courtroom every day, a lot 130 00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:36,120 Speaker 1: of his supporters. 131 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:40,640 Speaker 2: Yes, every single day, the court was packed with his supporters. 132 00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:43,960 Speaker 2: There must have been anywhere between thirty and forty people 133 00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:47,840 Speaker 2: every single day. Without a doubt, they would file in there. 134 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:51,280 Speaker 2: Some of them were wearing T shirts or jackets or 135 00:07:51,320 --> 00:07:54,920 Speaker 2: scarves with the G Fashion logo on it, and G 136 00:07:55,160 --> 00:08:00,680 Speaker 2: Fashion was another one of Milesglow's companies, so you could 137 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:03,160 Speaker 2: tell that they were very, very supportive of him. Every 138 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:05,400 Speaker 2: time he was walking to the courtroom and they would 139 00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:07,880 Speaker 2: all sort of wave and smile at him, and at 140 00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:10,600 Speaker 2: different points throughout the trial days he would turn around, 141 00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:13,280 Speaker 2: he would look at the public gallery and give everyone 142 00:08:13,320 --> 00:08:15,760 Speaker 2: a smile. It was quite amazing to see them turn 143 00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:18,960 Speaker 2: up every single day over the course of almost two months. 144 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:23,280 Speaker 2: Towards the end of the trial, there were also some detractors, 145 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:25,000 Speaker 2: so there was a little bit of tension in the 146 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:27,760 Speaker 2: courtroom and you could see towards the end there there 147 00:08:27,760 --> 00:08:31,400 Speaker 2: were more US Marshals turning up to make sure everyone 148 00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:35,280 Speaker 2: was sort of behaving themselves, and the court security officers 149 00:08:34,800 --> 00:08:38,240 Speaker 2: were making sure that they were talking to these people 150 00:08:38,280 --> 00:08:41,400 Speaker 2: and telling them to be respectful of the environment that 151 00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:44,199 Speaker 2: they were in. Once the verdict was handed down, we 152 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:47,280 Speaker 2: were expecting some sort of emotions and tensions to boil over, 153 00:08:47,679 --> 00:08:50,920 Speaker 2: but everyone was very calm. Even Malesgow himself was very calm, 154 00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:53,520 Speaker 2: you know. If anything, he was comforting his lawyers, who 155 00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:55,720 Speaker 2: fought very hard for him and put up a pretty 156 00:08:55,720 --> 00:08:58,760 Speaker 2: good case throughout his trial. He hugged one of his 157 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:02,000 Speaker 2: defense lawyers, was shaking the hands of the others for 158 00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:04,920 Speaker 2: he was led away. One for his supporters got outside 159 00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:07,360 Speaker 2: the courthouse. There was a little bit of yelling and 160 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:10,960 Speaker 2: back and forth outside the court building, and some of 161 00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 2: the US marshals had to step in and tell them 162 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:16,120 Speaker 2: just to calm down. So, yeah, it was quite impressive 163 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:17,840 Speaker 2: to see the people that turned out to support him 164 00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:18,520 Speaker 2: every single day. 165 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:22,560 Speaker 1: And something very unusual here the judge kept the names 166 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:26,400 Speaker 1: of the juror's secret. What was the reason for that. 167 00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:28,960 Speaker 2: That's right before the trial began, there were arguments on 168 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:32,480 Speaker 2: both sides as to why there should be an anonymous jury, 169 00:09:32,559 --> 00:09:35,640 Speaker 2: and this is quite an unusual step that the prosecution 170 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:39,600 Speaker 2: had argued that the jurors were potentially at risk if 171 00:09:39,600 --> 00:09:43,960 Speaker 2: they were identified because of the very strong and loyal 172 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:46,719 Speaker 2: supporter base that Milgo had and they were a bit 173 00:09:46,760 --> 00:09:50,320 Speaker 2: worried about and maybe retaliation, whereas the defense had argued 174 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:53,400 Speaker 2: that yes, the jury should be made anonymous, but the 175 00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:57,320 Speaker 2: risk was coming from the CCP. So the judge didn't 176 00:09:57,440 --> 00:10:00,960 Speaker 2: rule either way, but she said that yees essentially because 177 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:04,080 Speaker 2: this case has attracted so much intense interest, that the 178 00:10:04,160 --> 00:10:07,720 Speaker 2: jury should remain anonymous. And they were escorted by US 179 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:10,480 Speaker 2: marshals to the court each day and. 180 00:10:10,640 --> 00:10:13,600 Speaker 1: They deliberated over four days, but they had to start again. 181 00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:17,400 Speaker 2: Yes, they started, and then were a few hours in 182 00:10:17,559 --> 00:10:21,040 Speaker 2: before one of the jurors let it slip in deliberations 183 00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:25,079 Speaker 2: that they had googled the name of the co defendant, 184 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:28,160 Speaker 2: a man called William g who is actually still at large. 185 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:28,600 Speaker 3: He was a. 186 00:10:28,520 --> 00:10:31,920 Speaker 2: Financial advisor to Mirs Glow and featured prominently throughout the trial. 187 00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:34,079 Speaker 2: And then the jury four person wrote a letter to 188 00:10:34,120 --> 00:10:37,080 Speaker 2: the judge saying, you know, we've got a problem here. Now, 189 00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:39,840 Speaker 2: this is sort of jury service one O one. You're 190 00:10:39,920 --> 00:10:44,880 Speaker 2: not to read any external news article about the case 191 00:10:44,960 --> 00:10:48,400 Speaker 2: that you're serving on the jury of You're not to google, 192 00:10:48,559 --> 00:10:50,920 Speaker 2: certainly anyone that's mentioned in the case or do your 193 00:10:50,960 --> 00:10:53,920 Speaker 2: own research. So everyone sort of held their breath when 194 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:56,679 Speaker 2: the judge read out that letter, and you know, we're warried, 195 00:10:56,800 --> 00:10:59,320 Speaker 2: is this going to be a mistrial? But fortunately they 196 00:10:59,360 --> 00:11:02,200 Speaker 2: were able to just excuse that dura that did the 197 00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:06,040 Speaker 2: googling and bring in an alternate and they started deliberations again. 198 00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:10,520 Speaker 2: So that jury deliberated for about three days until they 199 00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:11,360 Speaker 2: came to a verdict. 200 00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:14,760 Speaker 1: You always have to have those alternate's ready. So he's 201 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:18,199 Speaker 1: going to be standards on November nineteenth, how much time. 202 00:11:18,040 --> 00:11:21,079 Speaker 2: Does he face even though he was acquitted on three 203 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:24,480 Speaker 2: out of the twelfth counts. He still faces decades in 204 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:28,439 Speaker 2: jail for the most serious charges, the fraud charges, the 205 00:11:28,520 --> 00:11:33,240 Speaker 2: racketeering conspiracy. He faces up to twenty years each on 206 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:37,080 Speaker 2: those counts. So he's definitely facing a long period in prison. 207 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:39,760 Speaker 2: And because he is a Chinese citizen, you know, he 208 00:11:39,800 --> 00:11:43,079 Speaker 2: faces extradition back to China as well, and there is 209 00:11:43,520 --> 00:11:46,600 Speaker 2: an Interpol red notice out for him issued by the 210 00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:49,840 Speaker 2: Chinese government. So his troubles will I think continue once 211 00:11:49,880 --> 00:11:50,960 Speaker 2: his release from prison. 212 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:52,880 Speaker 1: And he's already been in prison for more than a 213 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:56,160 Speaker 1: year now. Thanks so much, Ava. That's Bloomberg Legal reporter 214 00:11:56,240 --> 00:12:00,360 Speaker 1: Ava Benny Morrison coming up the ramifications of this Supreme 215 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:05,360 Speaker 1: Court's decision on homelessness. This is Bloomberg. For the first 216 00:12:05,400 --> 00:12:08,760 Speaker 1: time in four decades this term, the Supreme Court ruled 217 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:13,040 Speaker 1: on homelessness, and the ramifications of that decision are already 218 00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:16,560 Speaker 1: being felt across the country. In a decision split down 219 00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:22,800 Speaker 1: ideological lines, the Court's conservative majority reinstated in Oregon city's 220 00:12:22,880 --> 00:12:28,000 Speaker 1: law banning homeless residents from sleeping outside in public places. Now, 221 00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:31,600 Speaker 1: cities across the country are weighing their policies, and some 222 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:35,280 Speaker 1: are preparing to take a harder line on homeless encampments. 223 00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:39,200 Speaker 1: Joining me is Sanita Patel, a professor at UCLA Law 224 00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:42,520 Speaker 1: School and the founding director of the UCLA Law Veterans 225 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:45,720 Speaker 1: Legal Clinic. She co authored an amicust brief in the 226 00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:49,440 Speaker 1: case with the National Coalition for Homeless Veterans that was 227 00:12:49,520 --> 00:12:53,480 Speaker 1: quoted by Justice Sonya Sotomayor in her descent. What was 228 00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:55,840 Speaker 1: at stake in the Grant's past case. 229 00:12:56,720 --> 00:13:00,840 Speaker 4: The Supreme Court was deciding whether or not to allow 230 00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:05,040 Speaker 4: punishment for homeless people with no access to shelter who 231 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:08,760 Speaker 4: were sleeping outside was as little as a blanket or 232 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:12,120 Speaker 4: a bald up shirt for a pillow. And what was 233 00:13:12,440 --> 00:13:16,360 Speaker 4: behind all of this was a prior Ninth Circuit decision 234 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:21,360 Speaker 4: called Boise versus Martin, where the Ninth Circuit had said, okay, 235 00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:27,480 Speaker 4: cities and states can use restrictions on when, how and 236 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:33,720 Speaker 4: where unhoused folks can sleep outside, but they can't criminalize 237 00:13:33,800 --> 00:13:38,880 Speaker 4: activities like sleeping outside or eating outside, as Justice Brown 238 00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:43,600 Speaker 4: poised out, if there is no alternative, reasonable place to sleep. 239 00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:46,599 Speaker 4: So when you had no adequate shelter space, there was 240 00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:48,760 Speaker 4: a lot of hand ringing by the cities and the 241 00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:52,959 Speaker 4: states saying that they weren't able to enforce the laws 242 00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:56,200 Speaker 4: well enough. And what we see with the Grant's past 243 00:13:56,280 --> 00:13:58,320 Speaker 4: decision is that the core kind of buys into the 244 00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:01,760 Speaker 4: unnecessary hand ringing from the cities and states that weighed 245 00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:05,080 Speaker 4: in because they were complaining that the Ninth Circuit's prior 246 00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:09,920 Speaker 4: decision in Martin tied their hands from enforcing anti camping laws. 247 00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:12,840 Speaker 1: And so why did the court come to the conclusion 248 00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:15,800 Speaker 1: that this wasn't cruel and unusual punishment? 249 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:20,000 Speaker 4: The Court was really looking at whether or not these 250 00:14:20,160 --> 00:14:25,040 Speaker 4: ordinances from Grant's Pass Oregon criminalized and punished homeless people 251 00:14:25,080 --> 00:14:28,640 Speaker 4: for the status of being homeless, or whether it was 252 00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:32,240 Speaker 4: for actions associated with being homeless. And so you see 253 00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:36,320 Speaker 4: this interesting play in the majority and the dissent where 254 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:39,200 Speaker 4: the majority says, well, you know, this is a punishment 255 00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:42,520 Speaker 4: not of status, but of actions that people are doing. 256 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:47,200 Speaker 4: This is not actually a case that falls squarely within 257 00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:50,680 Speaker 4: the prior precedent called Robinson, which had been in place 258 00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:55,280 Speaker 4: for fifty years already. And the court decided that the 259 00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:59,760 Speaker 4: punishments here were not actually cruel, that they were not. 260 00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:01,560 Speaker 4: So that's what they decided. 261 00:15:01,880 --> 00:15:06,720 Speaker 1: And just as Sonya Sotomayor's descent had some emotional overtones 262 00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:09,640 Speaker 1: in describing the crisis of homelessness. 263 00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:12,920 Speaker 4: Well, you know, I think that for many people in 264 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:15,800 Speaker 4: this country, the idea of living on the streets is 265 00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:19,040 Speaker 4: quite a stark reality, especially if you've lived on the 266 00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:21,320 Speaker 4: West Coast or she's from New York City. In the Bronx, 267 00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:26,040 Speaker 4: you see the plight of unhoused folks on a daily basis, 268 00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:30,239 Speaker 4: and in those circumstances were left to think, well, how 269 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:34,240 Speaker 4: can it not be cool to require someone to sleep 270 00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:37,960 Speaker 4: on the streets without even a blanket in the cold 271 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:41,040 Speaker 4: winter of Grant's past and have nowhere else to go? 272 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:44,280 Speaker 4: So here, you know, I thought she actually did a 273 00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:47,880 Speaker 4: very careful analysis of the purpose, the text, and the 274 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:51,840 Speaker 4: enforcement of the Grants ordinances. I agreed with how she 275 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:56,560 Speaker 4: showed the ordinances actually criminalized status. Right, So the action 276 00:15:56,880 --> 00:16:03,040 Speaker 4: of sleeping outside is something that necessarily defines the status 277 00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:07,800 Speaker 4: of being unhoused, and it is a human biological need. 278 00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:11,120 Speaker 4: Another thing that she points out, which is what the 279 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:14,480 Speaker 4: Ninth Circuit pointed to as well, is that the Martin 280 00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:19,880 Speaker 4: decision left open lots of ways to regulate homelessness. So 281 00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:24,600 Speaker 4: you're still able to find or ticket someone because you 282 00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:28,360 Speaker 4: don't like where they're sleeping. You're still able to sign 283 00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:32,760 Speaker 4: or ticket someone if they are intoxicated in a public area, 284 00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:35,920 Speaker 4: if they're urinating a public area, if they're obstructing an 285 00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:39,760 Speaker 4: entryway or panhandling. You know, there's a host of petty 286 00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:43,960 Speaker 4: offenses that you can still enforce. It was really just 287 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:48,360 Speaker 4: this idea of sleeping outside at night with a small covering, 288 00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:54,440 Speaker 4: which literally defines being unhoused, that was in front of 289 00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:58,640 Speaker 4: the court. What they decided was that in order to 290 00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:02,480 Speaker 4: apply the Eighth Amendment Cruel and Unusual Punishment clause, it 291 00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:06,639 Speaker 4: would need to extend the prior Robinson ruling sort of 292 00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:11,760 Speaker 4: extended slightly around the status offense. And luckily they said 293 00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:15,359 Speaker 4: Robinson is still the law of the land right now, 294 00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:18,280 Speaker 4: which is good. It's been a president that's been around 295 00:17:18,359 --> 00:17:21,600 Speaker 4: for decades, and when the court of precedent it can 296 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:23,280 Speaker 4: turn things on its head, and. 297 00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:25,520 Speaker 1: We've seen that a lot in the last few terms. 298 00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:28,920 Speaker 1: In Grant's pass, were they actually arresting people who were 299 00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:31,320 Speaker 1: sleeping outside at night, Yes. 300 00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:34,440 Speaker 4: That's my understanding. The two plaintiffs in this case, they 301 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:39,680 Speaker 4: were cited for and find and eventually excluded from the city, 302 00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:42,679 Speaker 4: but they were sleeping in cars. The definition of camping 303 00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:46,280 Speaker 4: in the Grands Pass Organance includes sleeping in any vehicle. 304 00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:50,040 Speaker 1: How do you think this decision will affect homeless veterans. 305 00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:52,919 Speaker 4: Yes, that's a very good question. So you see, a 306 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:57,040 Speaker 4: Veteran's Legal Clinic worked on behalf of the Coalition for 307 00:17:57,160 --> 00:17:59,879 Speaker 4: Homeless Veterans, and we filed an amicist brief in the 308 00:17:59,880 --> 00:18:05,359 Speaker 4: case that Justice Sotomayor did cite briefly, and we really 309 00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:08,760 Speaker 4: presented the picture of what it's like to be an 310 00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:14,360 Speaker 4: unhoused veterans, the complications that come with acquiring work, or 311 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:18,120 Speaker 4: receiving your medications, or finding your social worker. But when 312 00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:21,119 Speaker 4: you sleep outside and you're being shuffled around because of 313 00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:25,120 Speaker 4: criminalization efforts, because of police enforcement. And so this decision 314 00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:27,880 Speaker 4: is going to affect veterans in the same way it's 315 00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:31,600 Speaker 4: going to affect other on housed populations, on house communities. 316 00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:34,399 Speaker 4: We will see the veterans that we represent, the veterans 317 00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:39,040 Speaker 4: around the country getting moved around, unable to locate and 318 00:18:39,119 --> 00:18:43,640 Speaker 4: connect with their service providers, lose their medications, lose their paperwork. 319 00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:46,960 Speaker 4: All of these things make it extremely difficult for them 320 00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:53,320 Speaker 4: to obtain permanent housing, even in a resource rich system 321 00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:57,399 Speaker 4: like the VA, where there are lots of options and 322 00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:01,400 Speaker 4: different ways for individuals to the comme house and get 323 00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:03,680 Speaker 4: connected to housing and justice. 324 00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:06,840 Speaker 1: Sodo Mayor, in quoting from your Brief and her Descent, 325 00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:12,840 Speaker 1: talked about Aaron Spencer, a disabled Marine Corps veteran. Tell 326 00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:13,639 Speaker 1: us what she said. 327 00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:16,879 Speaker 4: You know, she's discussing how diverse the veteran community is 328 00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:21,240 Speaker 4: and how this decision is unfortunately going to affect marginalized 329 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:25,600 Speaker 4: and vulnerable populations more. We know that, for example, thirty 330 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:29,440 Speaker 4: seven percent of the homeless community is black, even though 331 00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:32,280 Speaker 4: they're thirteen percent of the general population, and because of 332 00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:36,119 Speaker 4: structural racism lack of access to housing and jobs, we 333 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:39,199 Speaker 4: have this racial disparity when it comes to veterans. We 334 00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:44,119 Speaker 4: also have a pretty stark disparity for unsheltered veterans in 335 00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:46,880 Speaker 4: comparison to the veteran population the general population. 336 00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:48,200 Speaker 3: And so here she's. 337 00:19:48,040 --> 00:19:51,600 Speaker 4: Pointing out that veterans are more likely to become homeless 338 00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:55,000 Speaker 4: if they have served in combat, if they have PTSD, 339 00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:59,359 Speaker 4: And she talks about the case of Aaron Spenser, who 340 00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:03,080 Speaker 4: is a disable Bold Marine Corps veteran, and he was 341 00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:07,080 Speaker 4: putting his tools and his bike parts and other things 342 00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:10,320 Speaker 4: that he uses to make money on the side in 343 00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:15,040 Speaker 4: a cart, and then he was arrested repeatedly for illegal lodgings, 344 00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:17,640 Speaker 4: for being on the streets, and every time his car 345 00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:21,080 Speaker 4: and his belongings they were taken away. And you know, 346 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:23,639 Speaker 4: she quotes him saying, the massive number of times the 347 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:26,520 Speaker 4: city or state has taken all I possessed leaves me 348 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:31,000 Speaker 4: in a macuous daja zoo. And this is really indicative 349 00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:35,080 Speaker 4: of the stories that we hear from unhoused veterans and 350 00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:38,560 Speaker 4: unhoused people in general. There's this sense of I don't 351 00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:40,080 Speaker 4: know when I wake up, am I going to be 352 00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:42,080 Speaker 4: able to sleep here or not? Are my things going 353 00:20:42,119 --> 00:20:45,199 Speaker 4: to be taken? Am I going to be facing some 354 00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:48,719 Speaker 4: bureaucratic nightmare today as I try to access services and 355 00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:52,240 Speaker 4: food and shelter and just the basic human needs. 356 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:55,719 Speaker 1: How does this opinion leave you feeling as an advocate 357 00:20:56,119 --> 00:20:59,479 Speaker 1: for homeless veterans rather than as a lawyer. 358 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:04,760 Speaker 4: I am doing a research project on homelessness in La County, 359 00:21:05,359 --> 00:21:09,000 Speaker 4: and you know, I think this idea of the cycle 360 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:11,800 Speaker 4: of moving in and out the majority opinions sort of 361 00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:15,640 Speaker 4: suggests that well, police are really on the front lines 362 00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:19,679 Speaker 4: of protecting our un housed folks and getting them into services. 363 00:21:20,119 --> 00:21:22,919 Speaker 4: I mean, it's just not the lived reality of the 364 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:26,080 Speaker 4: people we speak to, and that is really a problem. 365 00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:30,040 Speaker 4: I think when the Supreme Court doesn't recognize the wealth 366 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:33,560 Speaker 4: of research, social science and other research that's out there, 367 00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:37,399 Speaker 4: but instead is quoting from the Sheriff's Association brief on 368 00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:41,040 Speaker 4: the work that they do to help connect veterans, that's 369 00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:43,919 Speaker 4: one thing that is a bit of a problem. But 370 00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:46,240 Speaker 4: I'm hopeful that there are other ways for us to 371 00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:49,760 Speaker 4: challenge these laws. I mean, as an advocate, we always say, well, 372 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:53,080 Speaker 4: the fight's going to continue, right, So the court left 373 00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:56,879 Speaker 4: open lots of other ways to challenge really problematic laws. 374 00:21:57,000 --> 00:22:00,320 Speaker 4: We have the do process clause. There's several claims there. 375 00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:05,119 Speaker 4: There's also in Dan's past there is a provision on 376 00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:09,000 Speaker 4: the fines and Fees clause excessive punishment clause that is 377 00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:12,480 Speaker 4: still a live challenge that's in front of the district Court. 378 00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:16,600 Speaker 4: The city didn't appeal the loss that they have faced 379 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:20,080 Speaker 4: on that claim because they really couldn't. I mean, the 380 00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:24,359 Speaker 4: punishment that they're seeking again someone for sleeping outside is 381 00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:27,960 Speaker 4: so excessive and beyond the pale that they would have 382 00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:31,399 Speaker 4: lost clearly, and so they didn't even challenge that. So 383 00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:35,600 Speaker 4: advocates can raise those claims. Advocates can also raise other 384 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:40,160 Speaker 4: claims like vagueness challenges. There are some other ways to 385 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:44,720 Speaker 4: continue the sort of legal challenges. Now that's me being 386 00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:47,919 Speaker 4: an optimist. The reality is that I think that this 387 00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:53,840 Speaker 4: is just going to clear the groundwork for more police actions, 388 00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:58,639 Speaker 4: more coercive activity, and ultimately that is not going to 389 00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:02,240 Speaker 4: actually solve the problem in the crisis of homelessness that 390 00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:06,560 Speaker 4: we're facing today. There are proven solutions. Obviously, we need 391 00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:10,040 Speaker 4: more affordable housing. We need more access to the resources 392 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:13,840 Speaker 4: that will help people not only become housed, but stay housed, 393 00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:16,800 Speaker 4: because there's a problematic, kind of cyclical effect if you 394 00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:20,439 Speaker 4: stay homeless, if you have these tickets, you know, they 395 00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:23,560 Speaker 4: affect your credit, and then when your credit is bad, 396 00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:25,920 Speaker 4: you can't find a house. I mean, this is all 397 00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:29,320 Speaker 4: very connected, and so you know, unfortunately we had the 398 00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:33,120 Speaker 4: LAPD already has tweeted that, you know, now we can 399 00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:34,840 Speaker 4: do what we want sort of thing, and I think that, 400 00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:38,359 Speaker 4: unfortunately that's going to be the law enforcement mentality rather 401 00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:41,199 Speaker 4: than you know, helping you know, I should say hopefully 402 00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:44,440 Speaker 4: cities and counties around the country will not take the bait. 403 00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:48,520 Speaker 4: They will actually decide that they're going to decline to 404 00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:52,720 Speaker 4: over enforce these laws and put excessive finds through the 405 00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:56,000 Speaker 4: court system, which will only make it more difficult for 406 00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:58,720 Speaker 4: people to move out of living on the street. 407 00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:01,920 Speaker 1: Are there any cities that are dealing with the homelessness 408 00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:03,720 Speaker 1: crisis successfully? 409 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:07,040 Speaker 4: You know, remarkably? I would say yes. I mean, Houston 410 00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:10,200 Speaker 4: has made a lot of progress in solving homelessness by 411 00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:15,240 Speaker 4: funding housing services. Also, Miami Dade County has done a 412 00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:19,239 Speaker 4: pretty good job, and Milwaukee has also had like a 413 00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:22,719 Speaker 4: remarkable ninety percent decrease in unsheltered population. 414 00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:26,600 Speaker 1: So some hope there. Thanks so much, Sanita. That's Professor 415 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:30,080 Speaker 1: Sanita Patel of UCLA Law School. Coming up next on 416 00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:33,560 Speaker 1: the Bloomberg Law Show. It's time for the Summer Olympics 417 00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:36,680 Speaker 1: and there are lots of rules for companies who are 418 00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:40,560 Speaker 1: not sponsors. I'm June Grosso and you're listening to Bloomberg. 419 00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:45,160 Speaker 1: The Summer Olympics is coming up, and like everything else 420 00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:48,720 Speaker 1: at the Olympics, there are lots of rules and regulations 421 00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:52,679 Speaker 1: around the exclusive rights of the international Olympic Committee and 422 00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:56,960 Speaker 1: the us Olympic Committee, to everything from symbols like those 423 00:24:57,119 --> 00:25:02,760 Speaker 1: famous interlocking rings to terms like team USA. The IOC 424 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:07,320 Speaker 1: and USOC are hyper vigilant, so companies have to be 425 00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:10,520 Speaker 1: very careful or they could get a cease and desist 426 00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:14,040 Speaker 1: letter or worse yet, be sued. Joining me is an 427 00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:17,879 Speaker 1: expert in trademarks, Fara soon Dirgy, a partner at Dorsey 428 00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:21,480 Speaker 1: and Whitney, tell us about the exclusive rights of the 429 00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:23,480 Speaker 1: IOC and the USOC. 430 00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:28,359 Speaker 5: Sure, So the trademark situation resurspect to the Olympics in 431 00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:31,200 Speaker 5: the United States is very interesting and it's a little 432 00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:36,440 Speaker 5: bit different than your average brand. While the USOC does 433 00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:42,199 Speaker 5: have regular trademark registrations, they also have statutory protection in 434 00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:46,119 Speaker 5: the form of the Ted Stevens Olympic and Amateur Sports Act, 435 00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:49,199 Speaker 5: which was originally passed in nineteen seventy eight and then 436 00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:53,320 Speaker 5: it was amended again ten years later. So the reason 437 00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:57,320 Speaker 5: for all of this is actually pretty interesting. The United 438 00:25:57,359 --> 00:26:00,720 Speaker 5: States is one of the few countries where the Olympic 439 00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:04,880 Speaker 5: teams are not funded by the government. The funding actually 440 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:09,040 Speaker 5: comes solely from sponsorships, and so in order to keep 441 00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:14,280 Speaker 5: those sponsorship dollars really rolling in from large sponsors. They 442 00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:17,400 Speaker 5: have to make promises to the sponsors or the would 443 00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:20,440 Speaker 5: be sponsors and say, hey, brands, you guys are paying 444 00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:22,840 Speaker 5: a lot of money to sponsor the team. We're going 445 00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:26,520 Speaker 5: to make sure that other brands who are not paying 446 00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:30,719 Speaker 5: those sponsorship dollars don't step on your exclusive rights. And 447 00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:35,480 Speaker 5: so that's basically the genesis of the statutory protection. There 448 00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:39,680 Speaker 5: was actually a Supreme Court case in eighty seven where 449 00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:45,600 Speaker 5: the San Francisco Arts and Athletics Association they wanted to 450 00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:49,280 Speaker 5: use gay Olympic games, and the case went all the 451 00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:51,520 Speaker 5: way up to the Supreme Court, and the Supreme Court 452 00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:57,840 Speaker 5: confirmed that they could not use it. The statutory rights 453 00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:01,679 Speaker 5: that are involved here don't violate the First Amendments. And 454 00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:04,240 Speaker 5: an interesting piece that also came out of that case 455 00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:08,080 Speaker 5: was actually that the USOC when they sue somebody for 456 00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:14,200 Speaker 5: trademark infringement, unlike regular brands who own trademark registrations, they 457 00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:17,800 Speaker 5: do not have to prove likelihood of confusion. It's almost 458 00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:22,760 Speaker 5: a strict liability circumstance where you use the trademark Olympics, 459 00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:26,560 Speaker 5: you use go for the gold, or let the game begin. 460 00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:30,200 Speaker 5: In any kind of advertising here in the United States, 461 00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:34,960 Speaker 5: and it's automatically themed trademark infringement and then they take 462 00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:38,159 Speaker 5: it from there. So it's really sort of a step 463 00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:40,360 Speaker 5: above regular brands. 464 00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:45,399 Speaker 1: So now let's go through the basic list of do 465 00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:49,600 Speaker 1: not use, starting with the Olympic Rings logo. 466 00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:55,760 Speaker 5: So the protection here extends to the Olympic ring logo, 467 00:27:57,080 --> 00:28:04,040 Speaker 5: it extends to the word Olympics, Paralympics, Team USA, go 468 00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:09,080 Speaker 5: for the goals, let the Games begin, pairs twenty twenty four, 469 00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:11,680 Speaker 5: and the list is a little bit longer, but those 470 00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:14,639 Speaker 5: are sort of the main ones. There is an interesting 471 00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:20,800 Speaker 5: carve out that happened, I believe when the statutory section 472 00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:29,720 Speaker 5: got amended where companies who are validly using the term 473 00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:34,280 Speaker 5: Olympic in association with the Olympic Mountains in Washington are 474 00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:36,959 Speaker 5: allowed to do that, but everybody else is not going 475 00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:37,760 Speaker 5: to be able to use it. 476 00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:42,400 Speaker 1: And what about images of the athletes or you know, 477 00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:43,880 Speaker 1: snippets from the games. 478 00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:47,120 Speaker 5: The other things that you can't use when you're doing 479 00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:51,080 Speaker 5: marketing during the Olympics or frankly ever, is if you're 480 00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:53,960 Speaker 5: not affiliated and you don't have a license, you can't 481 00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:56,880 Speaker 5: stay put up a social media post and use an 482 00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:00,960 Speaker 5: image of you know, an athlete participate at the Olympics. 483 00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:04,720 Speaker 5: It violates the right of publicity of the particular athletes 484 00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:08,880 Speaker 5: who's in the picture, and it also violates the copyright 485 00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:13,680 Speaker 5: that's probably owned by, you know, the International Olympic Committee 486 00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:17,880 Speaker 5: or the broadcaster who took the video or the picture. 487 00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:21,880 Speaker 1: One of the biggest concerns is what's referred to as 488 00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:23,240 Speaker 1: ambush marketing. 489 00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:26,080 Speaker 3: Tell us what that is, sure. 490 00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:30,320 Speaker 5: Ambush marketing is it's actually kind of an interesting way 491 00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:33,600 Speaker 5: to market and it's not your sort of typical we're 492 00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:37,760 Speaker 5: gonna put an ad up or you know, talking about 493 00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:40,320 Speaker 5: our brand or our company, or we're going to put 494 00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:43,120 Speaker 5: an ad on social media. Ambush marketing is something that's 495 00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:47,880 Speaker 5: a little bit dicey, and it is actually prohibited by 496 00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:51,920 Speaker 5: the Ted Stevens Zat and the International Olympic Committee. Wherever 497 00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:55,360 Speaker 5: the games are, they've got pretty strong rules against it. 498 00:29:56,160 --> 00:30:01,760 Speaker 5: One of the sort of interesting examples of ambush marketing 499 00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:07,240 Speaker 5: happened in the twenty ten World Cup. Budweiser was actually 500 00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:12,560 Speaker 5: the official sponsor for beer and this Dutch beer brand, Bavaria. 501 00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:16,560 Speaker 5: They purchased a bunch of tickets to one of the 502 00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:20,680 Speaker 5: matches and they gave them to a bunch of women 503 00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:24,720 Speaker 5: and asked all these women to wear bright orange mini dresses. 504 00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:28,120 Speaker 5: And so when you know, you looked at the crowd, 505 00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:33,480 Speaker 5: your eyes were instantly drawn to the sort of orange sections, 506 00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:37,160 Speaker 5: and you know, that's that's a good example of ambush marketing. 507 00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:41,480 Speaker 5: And after the game, I believe the games were in 508 00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:45,640 Speaker 5: South Africa that year, the women were actually detained and 509 00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:49,920 Speaker 5: the beer brand was charged. You know, again, they pay 510 00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:52,680 Speaker 5: the official sponsor pays a lot of money, you know, 511 00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:57,480 Speaker 5: millions and millions of dollars in many cases to sponsor 512 00:30:57,560 --> 00:30:59,520 Speaker 5: and have all the ads and stuff like that during 513 00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:03,600 Speaker 5: the game, and a brand like this bought a handful 514 00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:06,320 Speaker 5: of tickets and they got a bunch of publicity. And 515 00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:10,000 Speaker 5: you know, the World Cup, FIFA, the NFL does not 516 00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:12,840 Speaker 5: obviously permit that or like that, and the Olympics don't 517 00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:13,400 Speaker 5: like it either. 518 00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:19,400 Speaker 1: How aggressive is the IOC and the USOC in protecting 519 00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:20,320 Speaker 1: their rights? 520 00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:24,680 Speaker 5: The Olympics is very aggressive. In the United States. The USOC, 521 00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:29,000 Speaker 5: which is the US Olympic Committee, they have an army 522 00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:32,600 Speaker 5: of lawyers, whether they have outside lawyers or inside lawyers 523 00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:36,200 Speaker 5: working on this. In the period around the games, they 524 00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:40,280 Speaker 5: send out so many CEASYM business letters each time there 525 00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:45,920 Speaker 5: are games. They also provide guidance beforehand for marketers trying 526 00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:50,720 Speaker 5: to avoid mishaps during the games. But I think their 527 00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:55,240 Speaker 5: team is probably online and working, you know, twenty four 528 00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:58,240 Speaker 5: hours a day during the games to try to ensure 529 00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:02,920 Speaker 5: that nobody who's not a sponsor is really working with 530 00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:07,400 Speaker 5: and you know, capitalizing on the goodwill of the Olympics trademarks. 531 00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:11,120 Speaker 1: And is it just big companies they go after or 532 00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:13,320 Speaker 1: do they go after small companies? 533 00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:17,760 Speaker 5: Everywhere in the past they've gone after everyone, they have 534 00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:21,080 Speaker 5: gone after. I believe there was a case now it's 535 00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:25,160 Speaker 5: probably many years ago where they went after a small 536 00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:30,320 Speaker 5: carpet company in Minnesota for using Olympics in their name. 537 00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:33,680 Speaker 5: So I think they really they go after big companies 538 00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:38,040 Speaker 5: and small companies. Probably now after so many years of 539 00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:42,560 Speaker 5: really large enforcement, I think that major brands are well 540 00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:45,160 Speaker 5: aware of the situation that are not going to step 541 00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:49,360 Speaker 5: on the toes of the Olympics rights. It's probably more 542 00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:54,080 Speaker 5: smaller brands these bes. And with social media, it's so 543 00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:58,240 Speaker 5: easy to step on the toes here because the USOC 544 00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:04,320 Speaker 5: doesn't want you you using hashtag team USA, hashtag Olympics 545 00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:06,600 Speaker 5: they think that that is there, and they're right in 546 00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:09,320 Speaker 5: the United States per the Statute that those are their 547 00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:12,920 Speaker 5: trademarks and they don't want them being used without payments. 548 00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:16,280 Speaker 1: Do they go after individuals who might do that on 549 00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:17,400 Speaker 1: social media? 550 00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:20,400 Speaker 5: So they don't go after individuals. I think there's sort 551 00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:25,560 Speaker 5: of four buckets here, right. There is the companies who 552 00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:29,920 Speaker 5: pay to be sponsors of the Olympics and pay a 553 00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:32,440 Speaker 5: large amount of money to be sponsored the Olympics. Then 554 00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:37,120 Speaker 5: there's another group of companies and brands that sponsor individual athletes. 555 00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:40,920 Speaker 5: They don't sponsor the games themselves, but they sponsor individual athletes. 556 00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:42,120 Speaker 3: Then there are. 557 00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:45,560 Speaker 5: Companies and brands that don't pay any sponsorship fees and 558 00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:49,160 Speaker 5: are just out there trying to capitalize on interesting marketing situations, 559 00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:52,280 Speaker 5: which really comprises a large group of companies, right. And 560 00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:56,600 Speaker 5: then they're individuals. Individuals have a lot more rights for 561 00:33:56,720 --> 00:34:00,239 Speaker 5: fair use because they are not using these trademarks in 562 00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:03,160 Speaker 5: commercial manners. If I want to go on an Instagram 563 00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:06,840 Speaker 5: account and just write a posting I love the Olympics, 564 00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:11,759 Speaker 5: I think it's awesome hashtag team USA. The likelihood that 565 00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:13,680 Speaker 5: the USOC is going to come after me, I. 566 00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:16,880 Speaker 2: Think it's pretty small also considering I don't really. 567 00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:20,400 Speaker 5: Have that any followers, it's not really making any intact 568 00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:24,040 Speaker 5: on anything. But companies who do it, it's a different 569 00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:27,800 Speaker 5: story because it's a commercial use on social media or 570 00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:31,640 Speaker 5: you know, in another forum. The middle sort of group 571 00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:37,400 Speaker 5: of brands who sponsor athletes but don't sponsor the games officially. 572 00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:42,799 Speaker 5: In recent years or recent Olympics, the IOC and the 573 00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:47,759 Speaker 5: USOC has created many, many rules for those types of 574 00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:55,879 Speaker 5: brands about when they can congratulate their athletes, how they 575 00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:59,040 Speaker 5: can care adu their athletes, how often they can post 576 00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:02,759 Speaker 5: during they call the blackout period. And it's a very 577 00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:06,640 Speaker 5: complex set of rules about you know, what they can 578 00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:08,799 Speaker 5: do and how they can do it, what imagery they 579 00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:11,640 Speaker 5: can use. Like I said, it's very complex, but they 580 00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:13,920 Speaker 5: do provide pretty good guidance on it. 581 00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:16,080 Speaker 1: Can AI be used in any way to get around 582 00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:17,480 Speaker 1: these AI. 583 00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:21,279 Speaker 5: Is obviously the hot topic of the year. I guess 584 00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:24,600 Speaker 5: it was clearly hot before that. But AI and marketing 585 00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:28,840 Speaker 5: can be fantastic. It can also be really dangerous legally, 586 00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:34,279 Speaker 5: and using AI to for example, clone of voice, that's 587 00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:37,280 Speaker 5: not going to get you around a rite of publicity claim. 588 00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:40,040 Speaker 5: It's not going to get you around any kind of 589 00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:43,480 Speaker 5: copyright claims or anything like that. You still have to 590 00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:47,520 Speaker 5: be mindful of the basic IP rights of different rights holders. 591 00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:50,560 Speaker 5: And just because you're using AI doesn't mean that you 592 00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:52,960 Speaker 5: can step back and say, oh, we didn't create this. 593 00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:56,400 Speaker 5: You know it's not us. And just because it's technically possible, 594 00:35:57,080 --> 00:36:00,120 Speaker 5: for example, to clone someone's voice, doesn't mean you have 595 00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:02,279 Speaker 5: their permission and you could still get food. 596 00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:08,240 Speaker 3: Any closing thoughts for marketers who fall in the last 597 00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:12,720 Speaker 3: bucket where they don't sponsor the games and they don't 598 00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:20,839 Speaker 3: sponsor a particular athlete, there's still opportunities to be involved in. 599 00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:25,440 Speaker 5: Marketing during the Olympics. You just have to be very careful. Obviously, 600 00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:27,799 Speaker 5: you can't use the trademarks, as we said, you can't 601 00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:30,880 Speaker 5: use footage, and you can't use images of athletes. But 602 00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:34,920 Speaker 5: that doesn't mean that your team can't be watching the 603 00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:39,160 Speaker 5: Olympics and you know, moving dynamically and creating really great 604 00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:42,399 Speaker 5: ads about you know what has happened. I think one 605 00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:47,520 Speaker 5: of the best examples sort of real time marketing happened 606 00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:49,680 Speaker 5: in the It's actually one of my favorites in the 607 00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:54,560 Speaker 5: twenty thirteen Super Bowl when the lights went out in 608 00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:58,320 Speaker 5: the middle of that Super Bowl, there's this very well 609 00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:02,520 Speaker 5: known now in marketing circle tweet that went out from Oreos. 610 00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:05,239 Speaker 5: They wrote a post that said something like power out, 611 00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:07,480 Speaker 5: you can still dunk in the dark. They didn't mention 612 00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:10,880 Speaker 5: Super Bowl, they didn't even mention big games, but the 613 00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:15,279 Speaker 5: tweet it went out like wildfire, and everybody picked it 614 00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:17,400 Speaker 5: up during the game and thought it was this great 615 00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:21,040 Speaker 5: marketing sensation. And they got so many impressions from it, 616 00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:24,239 Speaker 5: and they didn't step on anybody's IP rights. It was 617 00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:28,719 Speaker 5: a really great piece of marketing. There's another one, specifically 618 00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:30,960 Speaker 5: from the Olympics that I always liked to cite to 619 00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:36,919 Speaker 5: as a good example. Nike has an ad where they 620 00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:40,080 Speaker 5: have a picture of a boy standing on one of 621 00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:45,040 Speaker 5: those platforms above a very large pool that you often see, 622 00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:47,400 Speaker 5: you know, in the diving competition in the Olympics, and 623 00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:49,560 Speaker 5: it's a small boy and we just see his back 624 00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:53,040 Speaker 5: and it says, find your greatness. It's not using anybody 625 00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:55,760 Speaker 5: else's IP You're not having an image of a famous 626 00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:59,959 Speaker 5: diver on the platform. There's no flags, there's no Olympic trade, 627 00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:03,879 Speaker 5: but you get the look and the feel and the 628 00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:06,399 Speaker 5: spirit of the Olympics in there and I think it's 629 00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:07,560 Speaker 5: such a great ad. 630 00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:12,120 Speaker 1: Some great examples, Thanks so much, Fara. That's Fara, Soondergy 631 00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:14,960 Speaker 1: of Dorsey and Whitney. And that's it for this edition 632 00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:18,040 Speaker 1: of the Bloomberg Law Podcast. Remember you can always get 633 00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:20,759 Speaker 1: the latest legal news by subscribing and listening to the 634 00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:24,840 Speaker 1: show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and at Bloomberg dot com, 635 00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:29,120 Speaker 1: slash podcast, slash Law. I'm June Grosso and this is 636 00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:29,759 Speaker 1: Bloomberg