Speaker 1: I'm Laurie Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe You Should
Speaker 1: Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear Therapist advice
Speaker 1: column for the Atlantic.
Speaker 2: And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid,
Speaker 2: and I write the Dear Guy advice column for Ted.
Speaker 2: And this is Dear Therapists.
Speaker 1: Each week we invite you into a real session where
Speaker 1: we help people confront their biggest problems and then give
Speaker 1: them actionable advice and hear about the changes they've made
Speaker 1: in their lives.
Speaker 2: So sit back and welcome to today's session.
Speaker 1: This week, a man with unprocessed grief from his childhood
Speaker 1: struggles to trust himself and to set boundaries in his relationships.
Speaker 3: I was kind of head over heels for him at
Speaker 3: the beginning. There were a few red flags where I
Speaker 3: started to be a little bit concerned. I did kind
Speaker 3: of do mental gymnastics trying to justify his lies first.
Speaker 2: A quick note, Dear Therapists is for informational purposes only,
Speaker 2: does not constitute medical or psychologe advice, and is not
Speaker 2: a substitute for professional health care advice, diagnosis, or treatment.
Speaker 2: Always seek the advice of your physician, mental health professional,
Speaker 2: or other qualified health provider with any questions you may
Speaker 2: have regarding a medical or psychological condition. By submitting a letter,
Speaker 2: you are agreeing to let iHeart Media use it in
Speaker 2: part or in full, and we may edit it for
Speaker 2: length and clarity. In the sessions you'll hear. All names
Speaker 2: have been changed for the privacy of our guests.
Speaker 3: Hey Laurie, Hey guy.
Speaker 4: So what do we have today?
Speaker 2: So today we have a letter about relationships. So here's
Speaker 2: the letter, Dear therapists. My mom passed away when I
Speaker 2: was nine years old. Even though I was very young,
Speaker 2: I was incredibly close to her and felt like I
Speaker 2: had a deep and special connection with her. My family
Speaker 2: and I were with her when she died at home,
Speaker 2: and this moment has always stuck with me. I've never
Speaker 2: been able to share this experience with anybody, despite it
Speaker 2: being the most painful thing I've gone through, and it's
Speaker 2: still something I think about very often. I'm fortunate to
Speaker 2: have a loving family. However, we never really talked about
Speaker 2: my mum's death or the impact it had on us,
Speaker 2: and I feel that this has created an enormous amount
Speaker 2: of distance between us all. My relationship with my father
Speaker 2: is particularly distant and his lack of communication throughout my
Speaker 2: life has often left me feeling very alone. We have
Speaker 2: also had some big clashes in the past, including one
Speaker 2: very painful argument regarding my mom's wedding ring and who
Speaker 2: she left it for after she passed away. On top
Speaker 2: of this, I've struggled to have a healthy romantic relationship.
Speaker 2: Almost all of the people I've had a relationship with
Speaker 2: have cheated on me or lied, and I've often accepted
Speaker 2: behavior which, upon reflection, was totally unacceptable. I know that
Speaker 2: I have some attachment issues after my mom passed away,
Speaker 2: and I have been trying hard to work through that,
Speaker 2: but I feel a bit lost as to what I
Speaker 2: need to do to try and build healthy relationships with
Speaker 2: a romantic partner, and also my family love to hear
Speaker 2: any advice you may have, Adam Well.
Speaker 1: I think it's great that Adam is writing to us
Speaker 1: and realizes that there might be some connection between the
Speaker 1: unprocessed grief with his mom and what he's struggling with
Speaker 1: in his romantic relationships.
Speaker 2: I agree, and I think it's interesting that he's been
Speaker 2: unable to talk about the death with anyone, not just
Speaker 2: with his family who are reluctant to talk about it.
Speaker 2: But he's not found anyone in his life, not a friend,
Speaker 2: not a lover that he felt comfortable discussing it with.
Speaker 2: And that's something I'm curious about. So there's a lot
Speaker 2: we need to find out here. Let's go and talk
Speaker 2: to him.
Speaker 1: You're listening to Dear Therapists for my Heart Radio. We'll
Speaker 1: be back after a short break. I'm Laurie Gottlieb.
Speaker 2: And I'm Guy Wench and this is Dear Therapists. Adam.
Speaker 3: Hi, Laurie, Hi Guy. Thank you for having me. I
Speaker 3: really appreciate it.
Speaker 2: You're very welcome and thank you for coming on the show.
Speaker 2: Tell us a little bit about yourself, just about your
Speaker 2: current life. How old you are so we have a
Speaker 2: general picture of you.
Speaker 3: Okay, So I'm thirty one, I'm single, I live alone.
Speaker 3: I now live abroad, originally from the UK, but I
Speaker 3: moved away from home when I was about eighteen, so
Speaker 3: quite young. I went back to study, but as soon
Speaker 3: as I could, I left the country and moved abroad.
Speaker 4: Tell us a little bit about your relationships that you
Speaker 4: wrote to us about. When was the last time you
Speaker 4: were in a relationship, how long do they tend to last?
Speaker 4: And what has happened.
Speaker 3: Sure, So, my last relationship ended about two years ago,
Speaker 3: and I was in that relationship for about two years.
Speaker 3: It started fairly quickly. I think it was within four
Speaker 3: weeks we decided that we would be boyfriends together. I
Speaker 3: was kind of head over heels for him, but at
Speaker 3: the beginning there were a few red flags where I
Speaker 3: started to be a little bit concerned. But because of
Speaker 3: my previous relationships where I've been cheated on before, I
Speaker 3: decided to just start afresh. It wasn't fair for him
Speaker 3: to be under that same bracket, as I thought, you know,
Speaker 3: it's a new relationship, it's a new guy, so it's
Speaker 3: only fair to give him a fresh start.
Speaker 2: To what were the red flags?
Speaker 3: Yeah, so it was there were several things. I mean,
Speaker 3: I think at the beginning of the relationship, I mean,
Speaker 3: I had made very clear that I wanted this to
Speaker 3: be a very honest relationship. So I think upfront I
Speaker 3: said about how important honesty was to me. Then I
Speaker 3: noticed some little lies coming through here and there, nothing
Speaker 3: too big, just things like him lying about where he
Speaker 3: was and what he was doing. Later on, I found
Speaker 3: out that he was taking a holiday, and he was
Speaker 3: going on holiday with a guy. At first, I was
Speaker 3: a little bit funny about it, but I thought, you know,
Speaker 3: it's that they could just be friends, so that's fine.
Speaker 3: But as time went on, you know, I was never
Speaker 3: allowed to know who this person was. I was never
Speaker 3: now to meet them, So that was one big red
Speaker 3: flag that I had, But I just kind of brushed
Speaker 3: it aside, thinking that, you know, it was probably just
Speaker 3: in my head and I needed to relax a little bit.
Speaker 4: What strikes me is that you said there were some
Speaker 4: red flags, nothing too big, Just like he lied about
Speaker 4: where he was and who he was with. Yeah, that's
Speaker 4: not a little thing in a relationship. So I just
Speaker 4: wonder how you come to think of that as as
Speaker 4: a little thing.
Speaker 3: I think I'm just putting it into proportion to the
Speaker 3: things that later came. Things started to get really out
Speaker 3: of hand in terms of his lying.
Speaker 2: You're just starting this relationship and he's already lying about
Speaker 2: where he is, and then he actually refuses to give
Speaker 2: you information about who he's going away on holiday with.
Speaker 2: It's obviously very suspicious that he's not willing to tell you.
Speaker 2: There's obviously something he's hiding. How are you able to
Speaker 2: put that aside? What were the justifications you gave to
Speaker 2: yourself about why you can maybe put something that significant aside.
Speaker 3: That's a good question, and I'm not sure how I
Speaker 3: did it, but I did kind of do mental gymnastics
Speaker 3: trying to justify his lies. And I think I was
Speaker 3: really just head over heels and really liked him and
Speaker 3: really believed him when he said there wasn't anything to
Speaker 3: worry about. So I did just put my trust in him.
Speaker 3: I tried to ignore the fact that, you know, these
Speaker 3: kinds of things that happened to me in the past
Speaker 3: and start afresh. I had also been very clear from
Speaker 3: the start, you know, before we actually agree to start
Speaker 3: a relationship together, that was going to be the thing
Speaker 3: that was like, couldn't negotiate on, Like I just wanted
Speaker 3: complete honesty, and so I think I took him at
Speaker 3: his word, even though there were these obvious red flags.
Speaker 4: Did you confront him at some point about the fact
Speaker 4: that he was being secretive and that he had lied
Speaker 4: about his whereabouts in the past.
Speaker 3: I did. I did, and it wasn't met very well.
Speaker 3: He turned it around and made it seem like I
Speaker 3: was being very intrusive and overly possessive, which of course,
Speaker 3: when somebody says that to you, you do immediately back off,
Speaker 3: because that's not the kind of boyfriend that I wanted
Speaker 3: to be. When that happened, it really made me think like, oh, okay,
Speaker 3: maybe I am overthinking this too much. It kind of
Speaker 3: made me take a step back and think, just okay, relaxed.
Speaker 2: So how did things progress with this guy?
Speaker 3: Well, it wasn't until that holiday that he took where
Speaker 3: things really started to become clear that he was lying
Speaker 3: about lots of things. I found out that he had
Speaker 3: invited several guys to go on that holiday actually, and
Speaker 3: whilst he was there, he was using all these dating apps.
Speaker 3: He later admitted that he did meet people when he
Speaker 3: was away on holiday, and so obviously I was devastated
Speaker 3: by that. When I confronted him about this, well he
Speaker 3: was still on holiday. He immediately went into like apology
Speaker 3: mode and it was just endless emails and messages and
Speaker 3: I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, which made me think, Okay,
Speaker 3: like he's messed up, he's messed up, and maybe I
Speaker 3: need to rethink about giving him a second chance.
Speaker 4: Have you given people second chances like that in your
Speaker 4: other relationships?
Speaker 3: Yeah? Yeah, I have done several times pretty much for
Speaker 3: the same thing, lying cheating. It's been pretty much the
Speaker 3: same topics each time.
Speaker 4: And given that the second chances haven't worked out so well,
Speaker 4: what made you think I'm going to give this guy
Speaker 4: a second chance.
Speaker 3: I found it very, very difficult to let go of
Speaker 3: the relationship. Like I said, I was head over heels.
Speaker 3: I was really into him, and I think in my
Speaker 3: mind at that point it seemed just like when I
Speaker 3: was younger as well. I made mistakes, so I thought,
Speaker 3: you know, people do change, People mess up and then
Speaker 3: they learned from it, but he didn't.
Speaker 2: So you know, it's interesting, Adam, because you said you've
Speaker 2: had other relationships where people lied and cheated and asked
Speaker 2: for a second chance, and you gave them the second chance,
Speaker 2: and they continued to lie and cheat. So then you
Speaker 2: do that a second time. And the question is when
Speaker 2: you miss up by giving people second chances after lying
Speaker 2: and cheating repeatedly, do you learn from it?
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's interesting. I've not really thought about it like
Speaker 3: that before. I think more and more I've become the
Speaker 3: very intolerant of lying, and I've been trying to notice
Speaker 3: these red flags sooner than I had before and take
Speaker 3: them more seriously. But still I think I had that
Speaker 3: thing in my mind which just kind of talks me
Speaker 3: out a bit and talks me down, and yeah, it's
Speaker 3: just not very helpful for building a healthy relationship.
Speaker 2: Well, I think the thing is that you start the
Speaker 2: relationship with the right statement. And I'm going to elaborate
Speaker 2: a little bit. You've been hurt before. You didn't say
Speaker 2: that part to us, but I'm assuming you've said that
Speaker 2: to them, and therefore honesty is very important to me.
Speaker 2: I have a zero tolerance policy for lying. Then you
Speaker 2: catch him on small eyes like where he was, and
Speaker 2: the zero tolerance turns into tolerance, and so the messaging
Speaker 2: to him becomes I have a zero tolerance policy for lying,
Speaker 2: but if I catch you and a lie, I'll forgive you.
Speaker 2: And there's the mixed message that you give him about
Speaker 2: his untruths, and so he knows that you really are
Speaker 2: again but you will forgive it. And that's not the
Speaker 2: message you want to send. The message you want to
Speaker 2: send is I'm against it, and you know there will
Speaker 2: be consequences if it continues. But do you see that
Speaker 2: despite your intention, the message you're giving in your actions
Speaker 2: by forgiving. It's confusing.
Speaker 3: No, you're exactly right. It's all kind of empty, empty
Speaker 3: threats or empty promises of you know, if this happened,
Speaker 3: this is how I'm going to walk away, this is
Speaker 3: what's going to happen. But actually, in the end, it
Speaker 3: never did. I just kept tolerating it. Yeah.
Speaker 4: The other thing I'm thinking about is how it doesn't
Speaker 4: sound like he cared much about how much this hurt you.
Speaker 4: And as guy was saying, you have a history with this,
Speaker 4: he was aware of it, so you would think he
Speaker 4: would be extra sensitive to your needs there. And when
Speaker 4: he did apologize and send that string of apology because
Speaker 4: he was caught when he was on holiday, it was
Speaker 4: more about he wanted you to forgive him. I didn't
Speaker 4: get the sense that it was about I've really hurt you,
Speaker 4: I've really betrayed your trust. I know this is going
Speaker 4: to be really hard to repair. This must have been
Speaker 4: devastating for you.
Speaker 3: That's exactly right. And later on, when there were all
Speaker 3: these other things that came out, the same thing happened
Speaker 3: where I'd get endless messages and endless emails and it
Speaker 3: was a lot of words, but there wasn't much meaning
Speaker 3: behind it. There was a lot of you know, I
Speaker 3: even said to him at one point. You know, there's
Speaker 3: a difference between saying sorry and an apology. You know,
Speaker 3: anybody can say sorry, but an apology is really sort
Speaker 3: of taking time to think about what you did, how
Speaker 3: much it hurt, and how to move forwards. And there
Speaker 3: was none of that.
Speaker 2: Have you had any relationships, even if short, that you
Speaker 2: would consider successful and that maybe it didn't work out,
Speaker 2: it just didn't, you know, make the leap from infatuation
Speaker 2: to love or some but that there was honesty, there
Speaker 2: was good communication, you felt heard, scene supported. Did you
Speaker 2: have any experiences like that?
Speaker 3: Yeah? Actually, after my last relationship, the one that was
Speaker 3: pretty much a disaster, about seven months later, I decided
Speaker 3: to try dating again and I met somebody who was
Speaker 3: very nice and he had also been in the same
Speaker 3: situation as I had been. His ex boyfriend had cheated
Speaker 3: a lot and treated him quite badly, so we kind
Speaker 3: of bonded over that experience. And it was such a
Speaker 3: different experience from with my ex. There was just this
Speaker 3: feeling of calm. There wasn't this feeling of secrecy or
Speaker 3: things being hidden, and it didn't last very long. It
Speaker 3: was only about four maybe five months and he moved away,
Speaker 3: So it ended purely because of that. Yeah, that was
Speaker 3: like a big shock to the system, because you know,
Speaker 3: while it was very positive, there was a piece of
Speaker 3: me that was thinking things are going a little bit
Speaker 3: too smoothly. You know, when is something gonna come up,
Speaker 3: or when is this big surprise going to happen, because
Speaker 3: it's bound to happen again.
Speaker 4: Right when you said that there was this feeling of calm,
Speaker 4: I was wondering if there was also a feeling of
Speaker 4: when is the other shoe going to drop? This feeling
Speaker 4: of constant, low level.
Speaker 3: Dread exactly exactly that was the fear. I didn't act
Speaker 3: upon it. I wasn't questioning or asking all these things.
Speaker 3: I kind of just decided to go with the flow
Speaker 3: and see how it went. But there was that feeling
Speaker 3: of things are going a little too well. And I've
Speaker 3: been here before where things just seemed great. But looking back,
Speaker 3: I think it really was just that we were able
Speaker 3: to bond over that experience and just knowing that's sort
Speaker 3: of this unspoken thing between us that we wouldn't ever
Speaker 3: do that to each other.
Speaker 4: Did you know from the beginning that he was going
Speaker 4: to move away, and if you didn't, was that upsetting
Speaker 4: to you?
Speaker 3: It was upsetting, but he was moving away to pursue
Speaker 3: his career, and so I said to him, like, I
Speaker 3: fully support that. You've got to do what's right for
Speaker 3: you in your life right now. It was very sad, though,
Speaker 3: because I think we were reaching the point where we
Speaker 3: were going to be together. He had met my friends,
Speaker 3: I'd met his friends, which was a big thing for me,
Speaker 3: and things just felt good. And the way that he
Speaker 3: spoke to me, the way he treated me, was just
Speaker 3: something that I hadn't experienced in a long time. So
Speaker 3: it was sad to say goodbye to that.
Speaker 4: And so was there any conversation about maybe finding a
Speaker 4: way to stay together, like you going to where he was,
Speaker 4: or doing a long distance relationship, or ultimately figuring out
Speaker 4: a way that you could be in the same place
Speaker 4: together given how well it was going for both of you.
Speaker 3: One of my friends had brought that up, but at
Speaker 3: the time it just didn't seem viable. I have a
Speaker 3: business here, so I wasn't able to and you know,
Speaker 3: he was studying a new career, so you know he
Speaker 3: was going to be meeting lots of new people and
Speaker 3: going to be very busy, and only four months that
Speaker 3: would be we had been together, so it seemed it
Speaker 3: would be a little bit too quick to make that
Speaker 3: step forwards of you know, could we move to the
Speaker 3: same country together, could we even live together? You know,
Speaker 3: it seemed a little bit too fast, and it felt
Speaker 3: quite natural just to let it go and say goodbye.
Speaker 4: That ended maybe about a year and a half ago.
Speaker 3: Yes, that's right, Adam.
Speaker 2: What's so encouraging there is that small, short relationship gave
Speaker 2: you a taste of what it should feel like when
Speaker 2: you don't have to be anxious and worried and checking
Speaker 2: up and not getting information and catching small discrepancies and
Speaker 2: truth and those kinds of things. When someone's communicative and
Speaker 2: can show up for you and has the same priorities
Speaker 2: and values that you do in terms of honesty and cheating,
Speaker 2: you got to take of that. I'm curious, since then, then,
Speaker 2: have you been able to keep that taste going in
Speaker 2: your latest elections of people you dated?
Speaker 3: Well, since him, I haven't dated anybody. And you know,
Speaker 3: after that relationship, I kind of made the choice that no,
Speaker 3: I think I just need to take time and be
Speaker 3: with myself, and that is kind of extended into you know,
Speaker 3: I'm single, I don't need to have anybody. But I
Speaker 3: think part of it is a bit worried that, you know,
Speaker 3: I'm going to find somebody again, and this whole cycle
Speaker 3: of lying and cheating is going to thought again, and
Speaker 3: I just don't have the energy for that anymore. It's
Speaker 3: just too emotionally draining.
Speaker 4: I want to just go back to my question from earlier.
Speaker 4: So were only together four months and he was leaving
Speaker 4: to go change careers. So he must have known at
Speaker 4: some point in those four months, pretty early on that
Speaker 4: he would be leaving, right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's interesting actually, because things were going incredibly well,
Speaker 3: and towards the end, I noticed he started to distance
Speaker 3: himself quite quickly compared to how close we were. He
Speaker 3: distanced himself quite quickly. So I did confront him and
Speaker 3: ask him like, what is going on, Like are you,
Speaker 3: you know, changing your mind about us? And that's when
Speaker 3: he told me that he was leaving. And he also
Speaker 3: thought it was a good idea that we kind of
Speaker 3: pumped the brakes considering that he would be leaving.
Speaker 4: But here's another example of even though he didn't cheat
Speaker 4: on you, there seemed to be open lines of communications
Speaker 4: compared to your other relationships. This was a big omission
Speaker 4: that he had this thing going on that he was
Speaker 4: going to be leaving, and instead of telling you that,
Speaker 4: he just pulled back and then you had to confront him.
Speaker 4: And then he was honest with you about what was happening,
Speaker 4: but he wasn't proactive about coming to you and saying
Speaker 4: here's what's happening. So I think when you talk about
Speaker 4: this year and a half of feeling like, well, I
Speaker 4: don't need anyone, it sounds like from a very young
Speaker 4: age you've been quite lonely. Your mother died when you
Speaker 4: were nine, your family didn't talk about it, You've had
Speaker 4: some difficulty with your father, and you've had these relationships
Speaker 4: that have been very distressing. And I can see why
Speaker 4: it might feel safer to say I would rather be
Speaker 4: self sufficient than acknowledge my desire to have a partner.
Speaker 4: But I think you wrote to us because you do
Speaker 4: have a desire to.
Speaker 3: Have a partner.
Speaker 4: You just want to have a partner in a way
Speaker 4: that you haven't quite experienced yet and want to figure
Speaker 4: out how to do that. And so I think when
Speaker 4: we talk about honesty, let's start with honesty towards yourself,
Speaker 4: which is, it'll be really important for you to be
Speaker 4: honest with yourself that you do have this desire that
Speaker 4: you are lonely, that you would like to have a satisfying,
Speaker 4: mutually fulfilling, trusting relationship. When other people lie to us,
Speaker 4: sometimes we end up lying to ourselves. It just becomes
Speaker 4: such a part of the atmosphere that there's just nobody
Speaker 4: acknowledging the truth. So I want if anyone's going to
Speaker 4: be honest with you, I want you to be honest
Speaker 4: with you.
Speaker 3: Yeah, now I think you're right. I think I noticed
Speaker 3: that in hindsight afterwards with my ex that there were
Speaker 3: so many red flags at one point, and I was
Speaker 3: just turning a blind eye, and I asked myself why
Speaker 3: I was doing that. I don't think I realized at
Speaker 3: the time I was lying to myself that these things
Speaker 3: weren't really happening when it was quite obvious that they were.
Speaker 2: And so it's interesting there, Adam, because two things that
Speaker 2: are important to you, honesty and trust are the things
Speaker 2: you need to repair within yourself in a way. The honesty,
Speaker 2: as Laur just explained, and the trust as well. And
Speaker 2: you to trust yourself. Means that when you say I
Speaker 2: won't accept something, you indeed won't and you won't turn
Speaker 2: a blind eye to so many incidences of that very
Speaker 2: thing that you said you won't accept. When you set
Speaker 2: a standard for yourself that then you reflect to the
Speaker 2: other person, But then you don't maintain that standard, you
Speaker 2: begin to lose trust in yourself as well. So both
Speaker 2: honesty and trust are things you need to repair within
Speaker 2: yourself in your own internal dialogue before you can repair
Speaker 2: them outside.
Speaker 3: I have been avoiding it, I think, deep down, if
Speaker 3: I ask myself, it has been more about me avoiding
Speaker 3: being hurt. And there are a lot of excuses as
Speaker 3: to why, you know, my career, I'm too busy, I this,
Speaker 3: that and the other, But actually I think it's those
Speaker 3: are all just excuses.
Speaker 4: Can we hear a little bit more about where some
Speaker 4: of this might have started. Can we hear a little
Speaker 4: bit more about what happened when you were nine?
Speaker 3: Yeah? So my mom passed away when I was nine
Speaker 3: years old. She had cancer. She was diagnosed when I
Speaker 3: was about four years old, but of course I wasn't
Speaker 3: really aware of what was going on until I was
Speaker 3: about seven eight. That's when I really started to get
Speaker 3: a deeper understanding of her illness and what that meant.
Speaker 4: You got a deeper understanding because your parents communicated that
Speaker 4: to you, or because you just intuited it from watching
Speaker 4: what was going on around you.
Speaker 3: Both, I think both. My dad was very honest with us,
Speaker 3: especially towards the end. We would have family meetings where
Speaker 3: we would sit down and he would tell us, you know,
Speaker 3: the condition that my mom was in. But also before that,
Speaker 3: I would notice that I spent so much of my
Speaker 3: time with her as a kid, and there are a
Speaker 3: lot of times where I could see that she was
Speaker 3: just really really struggling. And at school as well. I mean,
Speaker 3: all the teachers knew as well, so they would pull
Speaker 3: me aside sometimes and kind of try and get me
Speaker 3: to talk about it or ask me if I'm okay.
Speaker 3: So there was just a lot of things that I noticed.
Speaker 3: My dad did, like speak to us very honestly about
Speaker 3: what was going to happen.
Speaker 4: What about your mom, did she speak to you about
Speaker 4: what was happening?
Speaker 3: No, that's a good question. I think actually in all
Speaker 3: of these family meetings, I think my mom found it
Speaker 3: probably too difficult to be there. You know, I have
Speaker 3: two sisters, and I think she probably thought it was
Speaker 3: going to be too difficult to see our reaction when
Speaker 3: we were told that she was dying and that, you know,
Speaker 3: there was nothing that could be done to stop that.
Speaker 4: I'm sure there was a period when she thought that
Speaker 4: she might be able to get through the cancer. Did
Speaker 4: she ever say to you, hey, I'm sick, but we're
Speaker 4: treating it, and you know, we're hoping it's going to
Speaker 4: be okay. It just was never acknowledged that she was
Speaker 4: sick by her.
Speaker 3: I have no memories really of her talking about it.
Speaker 3: I remember when she was, you know, in her last
Speaker 3: few days, she spoke to us because we were with her,
Speaker 3: and you know, she said that she didn't want us
Speaker 3: to be upset about what was happening. Other than that,
Speaker 3: I don't have any memories of her, you know, actively
Speaker 3: talking about it with us. I think she probably tried
Speaker 3: to avoid talking about it as much as possible.
Speaker 4: I can understand why, as your mother, it must have
Speaker 4: been so painful for her to imagine how upsetting it
Speaker 4: would be for you and your sisters to lose her.
Speaker 4: But the message that she gave trying to protect you
Speaker 4: was don't be upset about this incredibly life changing, upsetting thing.
Speaker 4: And I'm thinking about how you started the conversation today saying, yeah,
Speaker 4: he didn't tell me where he was and he was
Speaker 4: not truthful about that, but it was just small things.
Speaker 4: I wasn't really upset. So this idea that you're not
Speaker 4: supposed to be upset about something that is incredibly upsetting
Speaker 4: has lived inside of you for quite a long time.
Speaker 4: She wasn't saying, I know this is going to be
Speaker 4: really upsetting. I love you so much. It's so painful
Speaker 4: to know that I'm not going to be here for you.
Speaker 4: It's okay, don't be upset, but I'm dying, but don't
Speaker 4: be upset. And I understand her intention was loving, but
Speaker 4: the message is something that you seem to keep living
Speaker 4: out in your relationships.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's interesting. With many different things, that's been the
Speaker 3: case where I, you know, something might be quite painful,
Speaker 3: and I don't give it the space that it probably needs,
Speaker 3: and I do minimize it and I avoid talking about
Speaker 3: it with lots of things. But I mean, especially you
Speaker 3: know the topic of my mom. I've never really shared
Speaker 3: it with anybody, even like my close relationships. It's something
Speaker 3: that I feel like I shouldn't burden them with that.
Speaker 3: It's something that people don't need to hear. It's a
Speaker 3: lot to take in, So I just don't.
Speaker 2: But that there is the legacy of that last wish
Speaker 2: of your mom, don't be upset, And I think that
Speaker 2: you internalize that to mean that your feelings can be
Speaker 2: a burden to other people. And I'm wondering that was
Speaker 2: your mom. You mentioned that teachers pulled you out to
Speaker 2: check in and see how you were doing because they
Speaker 2: knew what was going on. But in your family, in
Speaker 2: these family meetings, in one on ones with your dad
Speaker 2: or your sisters, was there any discussion of how you felt,
Speaker 2: not just what was going on, but how you felt
Speaker 2: about what was going on. Was that something that was
Speaker 2: discussed in the family.
Speaker 3: No, from my memory, no, it was more about the
Speaker 3: things that were happening and what will happen. We didn't
Speaker 3: actually talk much about how we felt, you know, before, during,
Speaker 3: and after, we never really had that discussion.
Speaker 2: Have you ever tried in your family since to have
Speaker 2: a talk with anyone, whether your sisters or your dad,
Speaker 2: about how you felt about your mom dying when you
Speaker 2: were so young, No, we haven't.
Speaker 3: You know, when it comes to my mom's birthday and
Speaker 3: her death anniversary. We were all share a message saying
Speaker 3: that we're thinking about her. That's as deep as it's gone.
Speaker 3: I mean, when we're all together, we might share a
Speaker 3: couple of memories here and there, but we never talked
Speaker 3: about the actual experience of what we went through as
Speaker 3: a family.
Speaker 4: How old were your sisters when your mom died?
Speaker 3: I was nine. I had one sister that was eleven
Speaker 3: and thirteen, So.
Speaker 4: You were really the youngest and the least able probably
Speaker 4: to know how to talk about what was going on.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so you're nine years old and your mom passes away.
Speaker 2: What was the grieving like for you? We were to
Speaker 2: see you then, what would we be seeing that was
Speaker 2: going on with you? So you weren't talking about how
Speaker 2: you felt, but how were you managing? What did it
Speaker 2: look like to see you managing in the aftermath?
Speaker 3: When my dad told us that she was going to die,
Speaker 3: that was a moment that we all broke down as
Speaker 3: a family. And also the night that she did, she
Speaker 3: died at home. She decided she wanted to be at
Speaker 3: home for her last few days. I mean I was
Speaker 3: hysterically crying watching it happen. In front of me, and
Speaker 3: I think the following days. I mean I remember bits
Speaker 3: and pieces, but a lot of it is just kind
Speaker 3: of blank. I mean, I know that I was really
Speaker 3: hurt and really upset, but as very little that I
Speaker 3: remember about what happened after that she died.
Speaker 4: When you got the news that your mother was going
Speaker 4: to die, and you said you broke down and were crying,
Speaker 4: was there anyone there to comfort you? What happened to
Speaker 4: that moment?
Speaker 3: I remember it quite clearly, and we were all sat
Speaker 3: in different places in our living room, and I think
Speaker 3: we all just broke down. We didn't know come together
Speaker 3: or embrace each other or anything like that. We all
Speaker 3: kind of just sat in our own place and cried separately.
Speaker 4: And no one came and hugged you or tried to
Speaker 4: comfort you in any way.
Speaker 3: I'm sure my dad maybe did at some point, but
Speaker 3: that wasn't something that he really did too much from
Speaker 3: my childhood. He didn't really hug and.
Speaker 4: Once you got that news, your mom wasn't in the
Speaker 4: room when that news was delivered to you, So did
Speaker 4: everybody just not acknowledge it to your mom? Meaning nobody said, hey, mom,
Speaker 4: we're so sad. Dad told us that you're going to die,
Speaker 4: so you just carried on with your mom as if
Speaker 4: things were normal. Nobody acknowledged that this news had been
Speaker 4: delivered to the three of you.
Speaker 3: No.
Speaker 2: No, So there's something that you learned there very young,
Speaker 2: which is you can have huge feelings for really good reason,
Speaker 2: and you have to carry them by yourself. You don't
Speaker 2: share them with people. People don't ask you about them,
Speaker 2: you don't ask other people who you know are having
Speaker 2: similar feelings about theirs. This idea of you have to
Speaker 2: go on as if things are normal. And I'm saying
Speaker 2: that in that way because it's a bit the rationalization
Speaker 2: you had about the cheating with the longer relationship, which
Speaker 2: is that there was a part of you that just
Speaker 2: wanted to go on as if things were normal. You
Speaker 2: had to learn how to compartmentalize or put aside your
Speaker 2: feelings or just sit with them yourself without being able
Speaker 2: to share them from a really young age. You've gotten
Speaker 2: really good at it, at being able to sit with
Speaker 2: big feelings and not have them validated by anyone, and
Speaker 2: then you end up questioning their validity because if you
Speaker 2: couldn't even get validation for how horrible and difficult it
Speaker 2: was when your mom was dying and then died in
Speaker 2: the home and in front of you, and that couldn't
Speaker 2: get validated externally, verbally or in other kinds of ways.
Speaker 2: Then that's the legacy that you kind of bring forth.
Speaker 2: The idea of my feelings won't get validated, there's no
Speaker 2: point in really talking about them too much.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. It wasn't until quite recently that somebody, you know,
Speaker 3: I've been doing therapy as well, that I was asked,
Speaker 3: how who do you share this stuff with? Who do
Speaker 3: you share these memories with about your mom or that experience?
Speaker 3: And it was only then that I kind of looked
Speaker 3: back and I thought, for over twenty years, I haven't
Speaker 3: shared it with anybody. You know, there are very specific
Speaker 3: things about that experience which even the closest people in
Speaker 3: my life, I'd never shared that with them at all.
Speaker 4: Can you tell us a little bit about what happened
Speaker 4: between you and your dad since then? Did your father
Speaker 4: remarry or was it you and your sisters and your
Speaker 4: dad after that?
Speaker 3: Yeah, so my family's a little bit complicated. He didn't remarry,
Speaker 3: but he was in a very long term relationship. I
Speaker 3: think when I was about eleven, he got into a
Speaker 3: new relationship and they were together for about ten years.
Speaker 3: They broke up in the end. So she was a
Speaker 3: big part of my life growing up, but she didn't
Speaker 3: have much experience with kids. She kind of just got
Speaker 3: thrown in with three teenagers at that point.
Speaker 4: When she moved in, did the house still have the
Speaker 4: presence of your mom and it meaning there was still
Speaker 4: pictures of for you kids, so that both things could
Speaker 4: co exist. There's the memory of your mom and then
Speaker 4: there's this new person in the house. Was there any
Speaker 4: kind of presence of your mom that continued in the
Speaker 4: house after she died?
Speaker 3: You know, when she moved in, a lot did change.
Speaker 3: A lot changed quite quickly. You know, the color of
Speaker 3: the walls, you know the decorations, and it was a
Speaker 3: very very different dial to what we had before. There
Speaker 3: were a few pictures I think of my mum in
Speaker 3: the house, but not many, not many at all.
Speaker 2: What was that like for you when she moves in
Speaker 2: and the house changes, because as kids, that often feels
Speaker 2: like a bit of the betrayal in terms of your
Speaker 2: mom or being replaced, et cetera. Do you remember how
Speaker 2: you felt about her moving in and about the I'm
Speaker 2: going to guess that nobody asked you how you felt
Speaker 2: about her moving in, But correct me if that's incorrect.
Speaker 2: But do you remember how you felt about her moving
Speaker 2: in and those changes?
Speaker 3: No, you're right, I don't think anybody did ask me.
Speaker 3: But it did feel like a betrayal. I don't think
Speaker 3: I have a voice that it felt like a lot
Speaker 3: of my mum's essence was being quite like literally being
Speaker 3: painted over, you know. And yeah, it was sad. It
Speaker 3: was sad to see these things that you know, I
Speaker 3: considered a a home be changed now. It was quite
Speaker 3: confusing as well.
Speaker 4: There wasn't a lot of awareness of how having a
Speaker 4: connection to your mom would be important to the kids
Speaker 4: in the house. It seems like not only were you
Speaker 4: not asked about it, but there was just a lack
Speaker 4: of awareness that there might even be feelings about it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I think because it wasn't something that we
Speaker 3: talked about. For me, it just seemed somewhat normal, and
Speaker 3: you know, with somebody else moving into the house, it
Speaker 3: was already a big change. It was like a big
Speaker 3: change to the way that we did things and our schedules.
Speaker 3: And it was also at the point of time in
Speaker 3: my life where I was changing as well as changing school,
Speaker 3: and all these new things were happening. It was overwhelming,
Speaker 3: and I was very little discussion about what was going on.
Speaker 4: Did you have friends at school at that time.
Speaker 3: I had one good friend at the time when I
Speaker 3: was quite young. I mean, a lot of my friends
Speaker 3: knew that my mom had passed away, but it was
Speaker 3: never something that we talked about.
Speaker 2: You said that you left home and home being home
Speaker 2: and country when you were really young. It sounded a
Speaker 2: little bit like you were in a hurry to lead.
Speaker 2: Tell me if that's the case, and tell me, if so,
Speaker 2: why you were in a hurry to leave.
Speaker 3: No, you're right, it was pretty much as soon as
Speaker 3: I turned eighteen, getting on a plane and going halfway
Speaker 3: across the world. I think there was just a lot
Speaker 3: about my home life which I wasn't very happy about.
Speaker 3: I did feel alone. I don't think at that point
Speaker 3: I had many people in my life that I would
Speaker 3: have considered close. It just made sense to me to
Speaker 3: get up and completely change the environment and to see
Speaker 3: what happened. And in many ways it was very good.
Speaker 3: I made lots of really close friends by doing that
Speaker 3: and had lots of great experiences. But You're right, it
Speaker 3: was a get up and go as quickly as I could.
Speaker 4: You talked a little bit in your letter about the
Speaker 4: struggles that you've had with your dad. Can you tell
Speaker 4: us about those.
Speaker 3: Yeah. From a young age, I was very close with
Speaker 3: my mom, and I always was a little bit scared
Speaker 3: of my dad, not because he was, you know, a
Speaker 3: bad guy or anything. It was just, you know, sometimes
Speaker 3: he could lose his temper and I found that a
Speaker 3: little bit scary, and so from a young age, I
Speaker 3: was always quite kept my distance from him and was
Speaker 3: spent all my time with my mom. After my mom
Speaker 3: passed away, we did spend time together, and we would
Speaker 3: have some pretty big arguments as well. We had like
Speaker 3: a few big blowouts. Even up until recently, we've had
Speaker 3: some huge arguments. You know. There be certainly been times
Speaker 3: where I've been the instigator or pushing his buttons, but
Speaker 3: I think a lot of them has also been him
Speaker 3: unfairly being angry at me over something and even afterwards
Speaker 3: not quite getting an apology. It's kind of the same
Speaker 3: thing where it's a sorry, but it's not really a
Speaker 3: deep apology about what happened and what went wrong.
Speaker 4: I'm just noticing how you minimize his anger. You said, well,
Speaker 4: I kind of avoided him when I was younger because
Speaker 4: he had a little bit of a temper. You know,
Speaker 4: a temper from an adult when you're young and small
Speaker 4: is incredibly scary, very frightening to see an adult with
Speaker 4: that big kind of rage, even if other times he's
Speaker 4: very loving and kind. I just want you to notice
Speaker 4: how much you minimize the experiences that happened to you
Speaker 4: that elicits some kind of emotion in you, like fear
Speaker 4: or sadness, or even your own anger at your boyfriend
Speaker 4: for cheating or at your father for being angry with you.
Speaker 4: These external things get minimized, and then you don't allow
Speaker 4: yourself to feel your feelings because you're not really acknowledging
Speaker 4: how these things are affecting you.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's interesting. A friend actually pointed that out to
Speaker 3: me not too long ago, where they said, you know, you,
Speaker 3: even when you're telling somebody about something bad that happened,
Speaker 3: you always kind of give a little clause at the
Speaker 3: beginning at the end, where for example, with my ex,
Speaker 3: I would say, you know, I wasn't a perfect boyfriend either,
Speaker 3: so obviously I didn't do anything to the same levels
Speaker 3: as you did, but there would always be some kind
Speaker 3: of bookended by these things about myself.
Speaker 2: You mentioned in your letter an incident with your mom's
Speaker 2: wedding and that was a big dispute with your dad
Speaker 2: who that would be left for. Can you tell us
Speaker 2: about what happened there?
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was all quite dramatic. My elder sister she
Speaker 3: when she got married, my dad decided to give her
Speaker 3: the wedding ring, and my brother in law at the
Speaker 3: time was very gracious. He came to me and my
Speaker 3: other sister and asked if we felt okay with the
Speaker 3: ring going towards my elder sister. I was totally fine
Speaker 3: with it. I felt very happy that it would go
Speaker 3: to her and she was going to start this family
Speaker 3: and it was going to be great. But a few
Speaker 3: weeks later I got an email from my auntie and
Speaker 3: she was the one who had been taking care of
Speaker 3: the ring, and the email was worded in such a
Speaker 3: way that made me question why she was sending this email.
Speaker 3: And she asked me if I was sure that I
Speaker 3: was okay with the ring going to my sister, and
Speaker 3: I said, of course, why would I have a problem,
Speaker 3: And she told me, well, actually, Mom asked me to
Speaker 3: keep the ring for you for when you were ready
Speaker 3: to get married. The ring was kept in the photo
Speaker 3: frame of a picture of me and my mom. I
Speaker 3: started to question a lot of things as well, like
Speaker 3: it makes sense that it went to my auntie rather
Speaker 3: than my dad because he's so disorganized and you know,
Speaker 3: has a terrible memory. And a friend pointed out as
Speaker 3: well that actually, it kind of makes sense that you'd
Speaker 3: leave it to the boy in the family because they
Speaker 3: would probably use it to propose. So I decided, with
Speaker 3: no intention of trying to get the ring at all,
Speaker 3: to talk to my dad about it. And I started
Speaker 3: the conversation by saying, first of all, that this has
Speaker 3: nothing to do with like the thing, like I don't
Speaker 3: want to get anything from this, but also it was
Speaker 3: super important that there were no arguments in the family
Speaker 3: about this, and he agreed to that. And when I
Speaker 3: started to tell him what my auntie had told me,
Speaker 3: he just immediately shut it down. He said, no, there
Speaker 3: was no way that my mom would have left me
Speaker 3: the ring, and that if I was so desperate for
Speaker 3: a ring, that I could have his wedding ring after
Speaker 3: he died. And at that point I just I think
Speaker 3: I just hung up the phone and he didn't keep
Speaker 3: the promise. He brought it up with my auntie and
Speaker 3: they had a falling out over it as well. Luckily
Speaker 3: there on good terms now, but I think at the
Speaker 3: time it was quite heated.
Speaker 2: There was something so moving to hear that your mom
Speaker 2: thought so much about it that she left it for you,
Speaker 2: with this picture of her and you together, gave it
Speaker 2: to her sister, knowing her husband was disorganized for the
Speaker 2: one day, years in the future, years and years in
Speaker 2: the future from where she was. You might want to propose,
Speaker 2: and you might want the ring. What was it like
Speaker 2: for you to find out that she had given such
Speaker 2: thought to it, that she had asked to do that
Speaker 2: that your aunt had kept for so many years. What
Speaker 2: was that like to hear that?
Speaker 3: It was such a huge shock that nobody had ever
Speaker 3: mentioned this to me. And on some level it felt
Speaker 3: like I had communicated with my mom all this time
Speaker 3: after she had passed away. It felt like she had
Speaker 3: sent me a message. I think I spent a long
Speaker 3: time just crying, because it really did feel like after
Speaker 3: all that time, we still had that special connection that
Speaker 3: I had when I was a kid, and that she
Speaker 3: was thinking about me so far ahead and thinking about
Speaker 3: all these things that I would do in my life.
Speaker 3: So yeah, it was incredibly meaningful. But then again, on
Speaker 3: the other hand, it felt like, well, is this real
Speaker 3: like because apparently it's not. According to my dad.
Speaker 4: It sounds like the experience that you have repeatedly with
Speaker 4: people when you confront them with something that you know
Speaker 4: and they tell you that that's not what's happening. So
Speaker 4: you say, hey, you going on holiday. This doesn't sound right. Oh, no,
Speaker 4: you're being paranoid. So I think that you do know
Speaker 4: a lot, but you've had this experience repeatedly of being
Speaker 4: told that what you know is not true, and that
Speaker 4: can be incredibly confusing and it can really get in
Speaker 4: the way of trusting yourself. And I'm so glad to
Speaker 4: hear that you were able to feel when you were
Speaker 4: told that your mom had left this to you and
Speaker 4: that beautiful story. I was tearing up hearing that part
Speaker 4: about the photo and how you were nine years old
Speaker 4: and she thought, I can't be there for him, but
Speaker 4: I'm going to connect with him in this way that
Speaker 4: I have him in mind, and I want him to
Speaker 4: know that I have him in mind. That's so lovely
Speaker 4: and you were able to feel that, and then you
Speaker 4: went to your father and he denied that those were
Speaker 4: the facts. But what he couldn't deny was your experience.
Speaker 4: And that's the part I want you to hold on to.
Speaker 4: Nobody can take your experience away from you unless you
Speaker 4: let that. And it sounds like in your relationships you
Speaker 4: often let people take your experience away from you. I'm
Speaker 4: feeling this, but no, I'm not going to feel this
Speaker 4: because they're telling me this other thing.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that sounds pretty right to me. It's in many
Speaker 3: different aspects. I feel like I'm often being told that, no,
Speaker 3: it's not that way, it's this way, And like you said,
Speaker 3: it's very confusing and very disorientating, and it's hard to
Speaker 3: know which way is up.
Speaker 2: Are you dating now? Did you say? Are you still
Speaker 2: on the shelf with that?
Speaker 3: I have a dating app, and you know, I talk
Speaker 3: to people here and there, and on occasion, I might
Speaker 3: talk to somebody that I think, Oh, this person's interesting,
Speaker 3: and then when it gets to the point of okay,
Speaker 3: let's meet up, I generally make excuses. I just think, like, oh,
Speaker 3: I just now, it's not a good time. There's a
Speaker 3: lot going on and it never gets to the point
Speaker 3: where I go on a date.
Speaker 4: I just go back to one thing with your aunt.
Speaker 4: So when she told you this, you said, you've really
Speaker 4: never talked about your mom's death with anyone. Was there
Speaker 4: an opening there to talk with your aunt about your
Speaker 4: mom's death?
Speaker 3: You know, recently I did bring something up about my mom,
Speaker 3: and for me, I felt like I had said a
Speaker 3: little bit too much about how I felt growing up,
Speaker 3: and this was all done by message, so it wasn't
Speaker 3: a great medium to do it. And it wasn't until
Speaker 3: the next day, I think she replied saying like, oh
Speaker 3: that you know, you've given me a lot to think about,
Speaker 3: you know, just talking about my experiences as a kid,
Speaker 3: and that made it immediately made me feel like, oh,
Speaker 3: I've shared too much. I shouldn't have said that.
Speaker 2: What is it you said?
Speaker 3: I think it was that our family would have benefited
Speaker 3: from therapy like family therapy, that we never spoke about it,
Speaker 3: and I understood that it was probably because we were
Speaker 3: all in pain, I think, I said. I don't think
Speaker 3: it's as a coincidence that I and actually my other
Speaker 3: sister moved halfway across the world as soon as we
Speaker 3: could I think there was something going on with us
Speaker 3: that that made us want to leave as quickly as
Speaker 3: we could.
Speaker 2: And that's what your aunt said. You're giving me a
Speaker 2: lot to think about because there's a bit of an
Speaker 2: invitation in what you're saying to her to have a conversation.
Speaker 3: It made me feel like I said just a little
Speaker 3: bit too much, that perhaps I was saying that she
Speaker 3: wasn't there enough for us as kids. I think maybe
Speaker 3: she started to feel a little bit guilty that she
Speaker 3: hadn't been there enough to support us. I might be wrong.
Speaker 3: This is just coming from what I think, but it
Speaker 3: made me feel like, Okay, this is not something I
Speaker 3: can keep talking about with her. I didn't want to
Speaker 3: make her feel any guilt or any burden.
Speaker 4: So we're back to burden again. Guy had said that
Speaker 4: your note was maybe an invitation, but I think that
Speaker 4: she in her response was offering you an invitation too.
Speaker 4: She wasn't saying everybody did the best they could, or
Speaker 4: she didn't not respond. She said, this has given me
Speaker 4: a lot to think about, which is very open ended,
Speaker 4: and it makes me feel like there could have been
Speaker 4: a potential opening there. But then your younger feelings came
Speaker 4: in of I don't want to be a burden. Don't
Speaker 4: be upset. Everybody did the best they could. However, you
Speaker 4: justify it to yourself. You know, I don't want to
Speaker 4: bring up with my boyfriends that they're cheating or lying
Speaker 4: because I don't want to burden people with my emotional reaction.
Speaker 4: That's really interesting to me how you interpret something very
Speaker 4: differently from the way that I'm hearing it, not being
Speaker 4: in your experience. You interpret it as, Oh, I said
Speaker 4: too much, I was a burden. She must feel accused.
Speaker 4: You create all these stories around it. You just don't
Speaker 4: know if those stories are there.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's interesting. I never thought of her response in
Speaker 3: that light, and now you say it, it makes a
Speaker 3: lot more sense that she was. It was more of
Speaker 3: a positive. I think that she was oneting to take
Speaker 3: some time to think about what I said.
Speaker 2: The thing that stops you from having these conversations different
Speaker 2: feelings of yes, my feelings would be a burden, or
Speaker 2: the other person might not want to But any kind
Speaker 2: of interpretation always leads to the same path of so
Speaker 2: let's not have these kinds of conversations. And that's the
Speaker 2: thing to pay attention to. And despite the evidence all
Speaker 2: roads lead to Okay, I won't have the conversation, I
Speaker 2: won't date. I'll use the app, but basically not really.
Speaker 2: You know, you're swiping and you're chatting, but you're not meeting.
Speaker 2: There's again this big, big hesitancy to kind of engage
Speaker 2: in the things that will evoke emotion.
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, that's absolutely right. I totally see that.
Speaker 2: So, Adam, we have some advice for you. We would
Speaker 2: like you to this week email or text your sisters
Speaker 2: and your dad and tell them that you've been thinking
Speaker 2: about your mum a lot lately, and you know that
Speaker 2: they think about her as well, and that you would
Speaker 2: like it if on the next anniversary of her death,
Speaker 2: you all got on a call and talked about a
Speaker 2: little bit, shared some memories of her that would make
Speaker 2: you feel good and you would really like that. The
Speaker 2: emphasis is that you would like that to happen. You're
Speaker 2: owning that that's something that you want. Now, I'm sure
Speaker 2: you're thinking, I don't know what kind of response is
Speaker 2: I will get from them. Neither do we. But the
Speaker 2: goal here is to represent how you feel, and that
Speaker 2: is something that you would like. It is a door
Speaker 2: you would like to open. So that's the first part
Speaker 2: of the assignment.
Speaker 4: And what's important about that, as guy was saying, is
Speaker 4: that this isn't so much about whether they respond or
Speaker 4: if they respond in a way that you would like.
Speaker 4: It's that you are putting what you would like out
Speaker 4: there so that you can exercise that muscle and get
Speaker 4: used to doing that. And that leads us into the
Speaker 4: second part of the advice, which is that what happened
Speaker 4: with your aunt is that when she told you about
Speaker 4: the wedding ring, it happened on text or on email.
Speaker 4: It was not where she could see you. She does
Speaker 4: not know that you broke down crying, you had this
Speaker 4: really lovely feeling of being connected to your mom again.
Speaker 4: And also we think you made some interpretations about her
Speaker 4: response to your other text about being a burden. We
Speaker 4: think it was sort of potentially an invitation, and so
Speaker 4: we would like you to contact your aunt and say
Speaker 4: to her, you know, when you told me about the
Speaker 4: wedding ring, it moved me so much. It was so
Speaker 4: nice to hear something about my mom and me from you.
Speaker 4: And when I sent you that other text and you
Speaker 4: said it was a lot to think about, I was
Speaker 4: really glad that I could share that with you. And
Speaker 4: now that I'm in my thirties and I don't have
Speaker 4: memories of my mom past nine years old, it would
Speaker 4: mean so much to me if maybe you could share
Speaker 4: with me some parts of my mom that I either
Speaker 4: don't remember or happened before I was born. I just
Speaker 4: wanted to get to know her better. I would love
Speaker 4: to hear stories about me and my mom when I
Speaker 4: was little. What was my mom like as a little girl,
Speaker 4: What are some funny stories that happened in her life?
Speaker 4: If you could help me get to know her better,
Speaker 4: that would mean so much to me. And see what
Speaker 4: happens when you open the door that way with her.
Speaker 2: So one last piece of advice, Adam, and that's about
Speaker 2: your dating life. As we said, you need to restore
Speaker 2: a sense of trust with yourself and restore that sense
Speaker 2: of honesty with yourself, so you really listen to how
Speaker 2: you feel and you don't marginalize it and push it aside.
Speaker 2: And to that end, would like you to do two things.
Speaker 2: Number one, we'd like you to write a pact with
Speaker 2: yourself that you'll stick to from here on, with items
Speaker 2: such as, since honesty is really important for me, I
Speaker 2: will let that person know whoever the next potential boyfriend
Speaker 2: is that it is important to me if I catch
Speaker 2: them lying, I will let them know that that's not
Speaker 2: something I can tolerate, such that if it happens again,
Speaker 2: I will be out because I can't be in a
Speaker 2: relationship where I'm worrying all the time that the person's
Speaker 2: not being honest with me. But the pact is one strike,
Speaker 2: and one strike too, they're out. And other items that
Speaker 2: you want to put there that you know that you've
Speaker 2: not done a good enough job in the past of
Speaker 2: sticking to what's true for you and what's important for you.
Speaker 2: It'll be easy for you to stick to a written
Speaker 2: pact that you should have in your pocket when you
Speaker 2: go on dates, just to remind you that this is
Speaker 2: something that you've promised yourself. And then this week you're
Speaker 2: on the apps, you've been chatting. We would like you
Speaker 2: to set up one date, and what we want you
Speaker 2: to note on that date is how it feels going
Speaker 2: in there with this new determination, this pact in your pocket,
Speaker 2: that you are going to be operating very very differently,
Speaker 2: and that you're going to stay really close to your
Speaker 2: truth because your truth is I don't abide the lying
Speaker 2: and the cheating. I can't be in a relationship where
Speaker 2: I'm anxious all the time because the person isn't honest.
Speaker 2: I've tasted what it's like to be with somebody I
Speaker 2: can trust. That's what I'm looking for. And with that
Speaker 2: new idea in mind, would like you to know what
Speaker 2: your experience of that first date is.
Speaker 4: So this is a contract between you and you, not
Speaker 4: between you and the other person. It's between you and you.
Speaker 4: You can't control whether other people are going to betray you,
Speaker 4: but if you stop betraying yourself, we think you're going
Speaker 4: to pick better partners as a result of that.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Now, I like that idea of making a pact
Speaker 3: of myself and writing it out.
Speaker 2: I thought. And once you do that, you'll know one thing.
Speaker 2: Somebody is going to lie to me. I'll only do
Speaker 2: it once. Somebody's going to cheat. We'll only do it
Speaker 2: once because I won't be there for the second time.
Speaker 2: So that makes it feel much safer. Yeah, because it
Speaker 2: can't keep happening, you won't let it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's an interesting way. I've never thought of it
Speaker 3: like that. It can't happen more than once. If I
Speaker 3: said this, this boundary or this pact. Yeah, no, I
Speaker 3: like that idea. Thank you. I'm nervous but excited at
Speaker 3: the same time that thank you for your advice. I
Speaker 3: appreciate it.
Speaker 2: You're welcome.
Speaker 4: You know, often as therapists, we hear something in a
Speaker 4: first session that becomes sort of the touchstone of what
Speaker 4: keeps getting that person stuck. And what stands out to
Speaker 4: me was when he was talking about sitting at his
Speaker 4: mother's deathbed and her saying to the children, please don't
Speaker 4: be upset. And as a parent myself, I understand so
Speaker 4: much of the pain his mother must have been in
Speaker 4: and not wanting the kids to feel that. But the
Speaker 4: message and the legacy of that moment was don't be
Speaker 4: a burden, don't be upset. You're feeling these huge feelings,
Speaker 4: but it's not okay to feel that, And that has
Speaker 4: been the narrative in the family even after the mother died,
Speaker 4: where they just did not talk about the immense pain
Speaker 4: that they were all feeling in different ways. When there's
Speaker 4: a death in a family, everybody in the family experiences
Speaker 4: it in a different way from their own perspectives and
Speaker 4: their own pain, and nobody felt that it was okay
Speaker 4: to talk about it, and that is what he has
Speaker 4: inherited in terms of his adult relationships.
Speaker 2: You're absolutely right. And the other snapshot that I have
Speaker 2: is that scene after she dies, with all four of
Speaker 2: them sitting in a room, each crying alone. Is the
Speaker 2: other kind of set up there in that family. Of
Speaker 2: what other feelings you have, it's not only we don't
Speaker 2: talk about them, cry alone, but I'm hotened because he
Speaker 2: did seem quite interested in breaking some of these molds
Speaker 2: and having some of these conversations or trying to at
Speaker 2: least be beyond, and he will see what happens with
Speaker 2: the family. It feels risky and dangerous to share these
Speaker 2: feelings when you were so early on taught not to right.
Speaker 4: Not only to not share them, but he came to
Speaker 4: a place where he doesn't even trust that like when
Speaker 4: his mom, should I feel upset with his boyfriends? Should
Speaker 4: I be upset about this little thing? Like he didn't
Speaker 4: tell me where he was, and it takes going on
Speaker 4: holiday with other men for it to become something that
Speaker 4: he can acknowledge is maybe not okay. It's not only
Speaker 4: not being able to feel the feelings, but not being
Speaker 4: able to trust that the feelings you're feeling are valid.
Speaker 4: One thing I was so moved by was that he
Speaker 4: said he had never really talked about any of this
Speaker 4: with other people, and he was so open and willing
Speaker 4: to share this with us, and I felt so honored
Speaker 4: by this experience. I think we always feel honored that
Speaker 4: people share their lives with us, but this one in
Speaker 4: particular really really moved me.
Speaker 2: You're listening to deer therapists. We'll be back after a
Speaker 2: short break. So we heard from Adam and we gave
Speaker 2: him a lot to do. Let's see how that went.
Speaker 3: Hi guy, Hi Laurie. So it's been a week and
Speaker 3: I wanted to let you know what's happened since you
Speaker 3: gave me your advice. The first piece was to reach
Speaker 3: out to my family and to tell them I'd like
Speaker 3: to do a call on my mom's death anniversary. I
Speaker 3: actually changed it a little bit to my mom's birthday
Speaker 3: because that's just coming up much sooner. My family were
Speaker 3: a little slow to respond, but everybody did eventually reply,
Speaker 3: and they all said how much they loved the idea
Speaker 3: of taking some time to talk about memories that we
Speaker 3: have with my mom and share some stories. So that
Speaker 3: was really great. Secondly, I got in touch with my aunt.
Speaker 3: I explained to her that I wanted to try to
Speaker 3: connect more with the family on the topic of my mom,
Speaker 3: and she was really supportive of that. It does still
Speaker 3: feel a little uncomfortable to have these discussions, but I think,
Speaker 3: as with anything, the more I do it, then the
Speaker 3: more I'll get better at it. I think at first
Speaker 3: it will probably be me trying to connect us all
Speaker 3: in this way, but I've realized in essence, I feel
Speaker 3: like this is a kind of way to keep my
Speaker 3: mom alive by sharing our memories and our stories about her.
Speaker 3: Even though that she's gone, having that closeness to her
Speaker 3: is still very important to me, so thank you for that.
Speaker 3: My next assignment was to write a pact with myself,
Speaker 3: and this was really interesting because I actually had to
Speaker 3: stop and consider what it is that I do and
Speaker 3: don't want from a relationship, and writing it down made
Speaker 3: it feel much more tangible rather than just some vague
Speaker 3: ideas floating around in my head. It gave me some
Speaker 3: confidence knowing that I can rely on this pack to
Speaker 3: come back to whenever I feel like something might be
Speaker 3: going wrong, and hearing you both talk about me being
Speaker 3: honest with myself. Also made me realize that I need
Speaker 3: to treat this promise to myself in the same way
Speaker 3: that I would treat a promise to a friend too.
Speaker 3: And finally, you told me to go on a date,
Speaker 3: and I have to be honest, I was really finding
Speaker 3: any excuse not to do this, but I did, in
Speaker 3: fact go on a date and it was really nice.
Speaker 3: And also, having made that pack with myself, I felt
Speaker 3: like I was going into it much better in the
Speaker 3: case of red flag starting to pop up. So it's
Speaker 3: still a work in progress, but I feel like I'm
Speaker 3: pointing in the right direction. So thank you both so
Speaker 3: much for listening to me. I really appreciate all of
Speaker 3: your insights and all of your advice as well. Thank you.
Speaker 1: Well. I am so pleased for Adam, and I think
Speaker 1: one of the things that came out of this was
Speaker 1: being able to connect some of these earlier experiences of
Speaker 1: loss with what was happening in his relationships now and
Speaker 1: the earlier experience of not talking about things and how
Speaker 1: that translated to what he was doing in his relationships
Speaker 1: now and not being able to trust himself if something
Speaker 1: felt off.
Speaker 2: I agree because I think the theme with Adam was avoidance.
Speaker 2: It was avoidance talking about his mum. It was avoidance dating.
Speaker 2: And I think that the push we gave him really
Speaker 2: work because he sounds less avoidant, even though he said
Speaker 2: he did try to avoid having the date, but he
Speaker 2: had a good experience. He sounds like he opened up
Speaker 2: a conduit in his family to talk about his mom
Speaker 2: again that I think everyone will end up benefiting from eventually.
Speaker 1: And I think the beauty of what he did was
Speaker 1: seeing that people are really receptive. That he didn't know
Speaker 1: how they were going to reply, and we always said
Speaker 1: to him, it doesn't matter how they respond. What matters
Speaker 1: is that you do it. But then as a bonus
Speaker 1: to see and they were very receptive. And sometimes it
Speaker 1: takes one person in the family to be that person
Speaker 1: to start having conversations in a way that the rest
Speaker 1: of the family wasn't able to do. And I think
Speaker 1: the takeaway here that I think many people can relate
Speaker 1: to is that when you avoid things, it creates so
Speaker 1: many problems. He wasn't just avoiding things with his family
Speaker 1: members and with the people that he was in relationships with.
Speaker 1: He was avoiding facing these things himself. And when we
Speaker 1: stop avoiding things with ourselves. This whole new world opens
Speaker 1: up next week. A couple struggles with a toxic ex
Speaker 1: spouse who's not happy about their upcoming marriage.
Speaker 5: My ex wife is not happy about the fact that
Speaker 5: I am engaged to anyone, and she's not happy that
Speaker 5: I'm engaged in particular to Lily.
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Speaker 2: Our executive producer is Noel Brown. We're produced and edited
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