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Speaker 1: I'm Laurie Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe You Should

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Speaker 1: Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear Therapist advice

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Speaker 1: column for the Atlantic.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid,

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Speaker 2: and I write the Dear Guy advice column for Ted.

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Speaker 2: And this is Dear Therapists.

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Speaker 1: Each week we invite you into a real session where

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Speaker 1: we help people confront their biggest problems and then give

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Speaker 1: them actionable advice and hear about the changes they've made

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Speaker 1: in their lives.

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Speaker 2: So sit back and welcome to today's session.

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Speaker 1: This week, a man with unprocessed grief from his childhood

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Speaker 1: struggles to trust himself and to set boundaries in his relationships.

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Speaker 3: I was kind of head over heels for him at

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Speaker 3: the beginning. There were a few red flags where I

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Speaker 3: started to be a little bit concerned. I did kind

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Speaker 3: of do mental gymnastics trying to justify his lies first.

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Speaker 2: A quick note, Dear Therapists is for informational purposes only,

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Speaker 2: does not constitute medical or psychologe advice, and is not

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Speaker 2: a substitute for professional health care advice, diagnosis, or treatment.

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Speaker 2: Always seek the advice of your physician, mental health professional,

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Speaker 2: or other qualified health provider with any questions you may

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Speaker 2: have regarding a medical or psychological condition. By submitting a letter,

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Speaker 2: you are agreeing to let iHeart Media use it in

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Speaker 2: part or in full, and we may edit it for

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Speaker 2: length and clarity. In the sessions you'll hear. All names

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Speaker 2: have been changed for the privacy of our guests.

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Speaker 3: Hey Laurie, Hey guy.

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Speaker 4: So what do we have today?

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Speaker 2: So today we have a letter about relationships. So here's

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Speaker 2: the letter, Dear therapists. My mom passed away when I

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Speaker 2: was nine years old. Even though I was very young,

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Speaker 2: I was incredibly close to her and felt like I

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Speaker 2: had a deep and special connection with her. My family

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Speaker 2: and I were with her when she died at home,

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Speaker 2: and this moment has always stuck with me. I've never

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Speaker 2: been able to share this experience with anybody, despite it

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Speaker 2: being the most painful thing I've gone through, and it's

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Speaker 2: still something I think about very often. I'm fortunate to

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Speaker 2: have a loving family. However, we never really talked about

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Speaker 2: my mum's death or the impact it had on us,

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Speaker 2: and I feel that this has created an enormous amount

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Speaker 2: of distance between us all. My relationship with my father

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Speaker 2: is particularly distant and his lack of communication throughout my

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Speaker 2: life has often left me feeling very alone. We have

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Speaker 2: also had some big clashes in the past, including one

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Speaker 2: very painful argument regarding my mom's wedding ring and who

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Speaker 2: she left it for after she passed away. On top

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Speaker 2: of this, I've struggled to have a healthy romantic relationship.

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Speaker 2: Almost all of the people I've had a relationship with

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Speaker 2: have cheated on me or lied, and I've often accepted

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Speaker 2: behavior which, upon reflection, was totally unacceptable. I know that

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Speaker 2: I have some attachment issues after my mom passed away,

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Speaker 2: and I have been trying hard to work through that,

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Speaker 2: but I feel a bit lost as to what I

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Speaker 2: need to do to try and build healthy relationships with

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Speaker 2: a romantic partner, and also my family love to hear

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Speaker 2: any advice you may have, Adam Well.

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Speaker 1: I think it's great that Adam is writing to us

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Speaker 1: and realizes that there might be some connection between the

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Speaker 1: unprocessed grief with his mom and what he's struggling with

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Speaker 1: in his romantic relationships.

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Speaker 2: I agree, and I think it's interesting that he's been

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Speaker 2: unable to talk about the death with anyone, not just

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Speaker 2: with his family who are reluctant to talk about it.

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Speaker 2: But he's not found anyone in his life, not a friend,

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Speaker 2: not a lover that he felt comfortable discussing it with.

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Speaker 2: And that's something I'm curious about. So there's a lot

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Speaker 2: we need to find out here. Let's go and talk

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Speaker 2: to him.

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Speaker 1: You're listening to Dear Therapists for my Heart Radio. We'll

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Speaker 1: be back after a short break. I'm Laurie Gottlieb.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Guy Wench and this is Dear Therapists. Adam.

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Speaker 3: Hi, Laurie, Hi Guy. Thank you for having me. I

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Speaker 3: really appreciate it.

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Speaker 2: You're very welcome and thank you for coming on the show.

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Speaker 2: Tell us a little bit about yourself, just about your

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Speaker 2: current life. How old you are so we have a

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Speaker 2: general picture of you.

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Speaker 3: Okay, So I'm thirty one, I'm single, I live alone.

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Speaker 3: I now live abroad, originally from the UK, but I

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Speaker 3: moved away from home when I was about eighteen, so

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Speaker 3: quite young. I went back to study, but as soon

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Speaker 3: as I could, I left the country and moved abroad.

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Speaker 4: Tell us a little bit about your relationships that you

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Speaker 4: wrote to us about. When was the last time you

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Speaker 4: were in a relationship, how long do they tend to last?

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Speaker 4: And what has happened.

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Speaker 3: Sure, So, my last relationship ended about two years ago,

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Speaker 3: and I was in that relationship for about two years.

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Speaker 3: It started fairly quickly. I think it was within four

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Speaker 3: weeks we decided that we would be boyfriends together. I

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Speaker 3: was kind of head over heels for him, but at

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Speaker 3: the beginning there were a few red flags where I

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Speaker 3: started to be a little bit concerned. But because of

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Speaker 3: my previous relationships where I've been cheated on before, I

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Speaker 3: decided to just start afresh. It wasn't fair for him

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Speaker 3: to be under that same bracket, as I thought, you know,

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Speaker 3: it's a new relationship, it's a new guy, so it's

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Speaker 3: only fair to give him a fresh start.

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Speaker 2: To what were the red flags?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so it was there were several things. I mean,

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Speaker 3: I think at the beginning of the relationship, I mean,

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Speaker 3: I had made very clear that I wanted this to

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Speaker 3: be a very honest relationship. So I think upfront I

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Speaker 3: said about how important honesty was to me. Then I

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Speaker 3: noticed some little lies coming through here and there, nothing

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Speaker 3: too big, just things like him lying about where he

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Speaker 3: was and what he was doing. Later on, I found

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Speaker 3: out that he was taking a holiday, and he was

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Speaker 3: going on holiday with a guy. At first, I was

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Speaker 3: a little bit funny about it, but I thought, you know,

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Speaker 3: it's that they could just be friends, so that's fine.

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Speaker 3: But as time went on, you know, I was never

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Speaker 3: allowed to know who this person was. I was never

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Speaker 3: now to meet them, So that was one big red

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Speaker 3: flag that I had, But I just kind of brushed

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Speaker 3: it aside, thinking that, you know, it was probably just

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Speaker 3: in my head and I needed to relax a little bit.

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Speaker 4: What strikes me is that you said there were some

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Speaker 4: red flags, nothing too big, Just like he lied about

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Speaker 4: where he was and who he was with. Yeah, that's

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Speaker 4: not a little thing in a relationship. So I just

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Speaker 4: wonder how you come to think of that as as

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Speaker 4: a little thing.

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Speaker 3: I think I'm just putting it into proportion to the

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Speaker 3: things that later came. Things started to get really out

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Speaker 3: of hand in terms of his lying.

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Speaker 2: You're just starting this relationship and he's already lying about

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Speaker 2: where he is, and then he actually refuses to give

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Speaker 2: you information about who he's going away on holiday with.

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Speaker 2: It's obviously very suspicious that he's not willing to tell you.

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Speaker 2: There's obviously something he's hiding. How are you able to

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Speaker 2: put that aside? What were the justifications you gave to

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Speaker 2: yourself about why you can maybe put something that significant aside.

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Speaker 3: That's a good question, and I'm not sure how I

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Speaker 3: did it, but I did kind of do mental gymnastics

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Speaker 3: trying to justify his lies. And I think I was

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Speaker 3: really just head over heels and really liked him and

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Speaker 3: really believed him when he said there wasn't anything to

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Speaker 3: worry about. So I did just put my trust in him.

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Speaker 3: I tried to ignore the fact that, you know, these

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Speaker 3: kinds of things that happened to me in the past

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Speaker 3: and start afresh. I had also been very clear from

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Speaker 3: the start, you know, before we actually agree to start

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Speaker 3: a relationship together, that was going to be the thing

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Speaker 3: that was like, couldn't negotiate on, Like I just wanted

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Speaker 3: complete honesty, and so I think I took him at

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Speaker 3: his word, even though there were these obvious red flags.

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Speaker 4: Did you confront him at some point about the fact

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Speaker 4: that he was being secretive and that he had lied

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Speaker 4: about his whereabouts in the past.

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Speaker 3: I did. I did, and it wasn't met very well.

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Speaker 3: He turned it around and made it seem like I

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Speaker 3: was being very intrusive and overly possessive, which of course,

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Speaker 3: when somebody says that to you, you do immediately back off,

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Speaker 3: because that's not the kind of boyfriend that I wanted

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Speaker 3: to be. When that happened, it really made me think like, oh, okay,

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Speaker 3: maybe I am overthinking this too much. It kind of

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Speaker 3: made me take a step back and think, just okay, relaxed.

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Speaker 2: So how did things progress with this guy?

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Speaker 3: Well, it wasn't until that holiday that he took where

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Speaker 3: things really started to become clear that he was lying

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Speaker 3: about lots of things. I found out that he had

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Speaker 3: invited several guys to go on that holiday actually, and

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Speaker 3: whilst he was there, he was using all these dating apps.

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Speaker 3: He later admitted that he did meet people when he

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Speaker 3: was away on holiday, and so obviously I was devastated

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Speaker 3: by that. When I confronted him about this, well he

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Speaker 3: was still on holiday. He immediately went into like apology

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Speaker 3: mode and it was just endless emails and messages and

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Speaker 3: I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, which made me think, Okay,

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Speaker 3: like he's messed up, he's messed up, and maybe I

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Speaker 3: need to rethink about giving him a second chance.

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Speaker 4: Have you given people second chances like that in your

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Speaker 4: other relationships?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? Yeah, I have done several times pretty much for

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Speaker 3: the same thing, lying cheating. It's been pretty much the

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Speaker 3: same topics each time.

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Speaker 4: And given that the second chances haven't worked out so well,

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Speaker 4: what made you think I'm going to give this guy

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Speaker 4: a second chance.

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Speaker 3: I found it very, very difficult to let go of

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Speaker 3: the relationship. Like I said, I was head over heels.

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Speaker 3: I was really into him, and I think in my

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Speaker 3: mind at that point it seemed just like when I

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Speaker 3: was younger as well. I made mistakes, so I thought,

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Speaker 3: you know, people do change, People mess up and then

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Speaker 3: they learned from it, but he didn't.

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Speaker 2: So you know, it's interesting, Adam, because you said you've

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Speaker 2: had other relationships where people lied and cheated and asked

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Speaker 2: for a second chance, and you gave them the second chance,

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Speaker 2: and they continued to lie and cheat. So then you

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Speaker 2: do that a second time. And the question is when

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Speaker 2: you miss up by giving people second chances after lying

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Speaker 2: and cheating repeatedly, do you learn from it?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's interesting. I've not really thought about it like

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Speaker 3: that before. I think more and more I've become the

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Speaker 3: very intolerant of lying, and I've been trying to notice

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Speaker 3: these red flags sooner than I had before and take

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Speaker 3: them more seriously. But still I think I had that

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Speaker 3: thing in my mind which just kind of talks me

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Speaker 3: out a bit and talks me down, and yeah, it's

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Speaker 3: just not very helpful for building a healthy relationship.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think the thing is that you start the

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Speaker 2: relationship with the right statement. And I'm going to elaborate

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Speaker 2: a little bit. You've been hurt before. You didn't say

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Speaker 2: that part to us, but I'm assuming you've said that

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Speaker 2: to them, and therefore honesty is very important to me.

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Speaker 2: I have a zero tolerance policy for lying. Then you

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Speaker 2: catch him on small eyes like where he was, and

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Speaker 2: the zero tolerance turns into tolerance, and so the messaging

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Speaker 2: to him becomes I have a zero tolerance policy for lying,

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Speaker 2: but if I catch you and a lie, I'll forgive you.

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Speaker 2: And there's the mixed message that you give him about

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Speaker 2: his untruths, and so he knows that you really are

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Speaker 2: again but you will forgive it. And that's not the

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Speaker 2: message you want to send. The message you want to

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Speaker 2: send is I'm against it, and you know there will

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Speaker 2: be consequences if it continues. But do you see that

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Speaker 2: despite your intention, the message you're giving in your actions

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Speaker 2: by forgiving. It's confusing.

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Speaker 3: No, you're exactly right. It's all kind of empty, empty

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Speaker 3: threats or empty promises of you know, if this happened,

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Speaker 3: this is how I'm going to walk away, this is

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Speaker 3: what's going to happen. But actually, in the end, it

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Speaker 3: never did. I just kept tolerating it. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: The other thing I'm thinking about is how it doesn't

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Speaker 4: sound like he cared much about how much this hurt you.

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Speaker 4: And as guy was saying, you have a history with this,

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Speaker 4: he was aware of it, so you would think he

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Speaker 4: would be extra sensitive to your needs there. And when

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Speaker 4: he did apologize and send that string of apology because

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Speaker 4: he was caught when he was on holiday, it was

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Speaker 4: more about he wanted you to forgive him. I didn't

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Speaker 4: get the sense that it was about I've really hurt you,

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Speaker 4: I've really betrayed your trust. I know this is going

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Speaker 4: to be really hard to repair. This must have been

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Speaker 4: devastating for you.

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Speaker 3: That's exactly right. And later on, when there were all

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Speaker 3: these other things that came out, the same thing happened

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Speaker 3: where I'd get endless messages and endless emails and it

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Speaker 3: was a lot of words, but there wasn't much meaning

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Speaker 3: behind it. There was a lot of you know, I

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Speaker 3: even said to him at one point. You know, there's

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Speaker 3: a difference between saying sorry and an apology. You know,

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Speaker 3: anybody can say sorry, but an apology is really sort

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Speaker 3: of taking time to think about what you did, how

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Speaker 3: much it hurt, and how to move forwards. And there

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Speaker 3: was none of that.

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Speaker 2: Have you had any relationships, even if short, that you

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Speaker 2: would consider successful and that maybe it didn't work out,

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Speaker 2: it just didn't, you know, make the leap from infatuation

254
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Speaker 2: to love or some but that there was honesty, there

255
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Speaker 2: was good communication, you felt heard, scene supported. Did you

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Speaker 2: have any experiences like that?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? Actually, after my last relationship, the one that was

258
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Speaker 3: pretty much a disaster, about seven months later, I decided

259
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Speaker 3: to try dating again and I met somebody who was

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Speaker 3: very nice and he had also been in the same

261
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Speaker 3: situation as I had been. His ex boyfriend had cheated

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Speaker 3: a lot and treated him quite badly, so we kind

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Speaker 3: of bonded over that experience. And it was such a

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Speaker 3: different experience from with my ex. There was just this

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Speaker 3: feeling of calm. There wasn't this feeling of secrecy or

266
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Speaker 3: things being hidden, and it didn't last very long. It

267
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Speaker 3: was only about four maybe five months and he moved away,

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Speaker 3: So it ended purely because of that. Yeah, that was

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Speaker 3: like a big shock to the system, because you know,

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Speaker 3: while it was very positive, there was a piece of

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Speaker 3: me that was thinking things are going a little bit

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Speaker 3: too smoothly. You know, when is something gonna come up,

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Speaker 3: or when is this big surprise going to happen, because

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Speaker 3: it's bound to happen again.

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Speaker 4: Right when you said that there was this feeling of calm,

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Speaker 4: I was wondering if there was also a feeling of

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Speaker 4: when is the other shoe going to drop? This feeling

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Speaker 4: of constant, low level.

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Speaker 3: Dread exactly exactly that was the fear. I didn't act

280
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Speaker 3: upon it. I wasn't questioning or asking all these things.

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Speaker 3: I kind of just decided to go with the flow

282
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Speaker 3: and see how it went. But there was that feeling

283
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Speaker 3: of things are going a little too well. And I've

284
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Speaker 3: been here before where things just seemed great. But looking back,

285
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Speaker 3: I think it really was just that we were able

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Speaker 3: to bond over that experience and just knowing that's sort

287
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Speaker 3: of this unspoken thing between us that we wouldn't ever

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Speaker 3: do that to each other.

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Speaker 4: Did you know from the beginning that he was going

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Speaker 4: to move away, and if you didn't, was that upsetting

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Speaker 4: to you?

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Speaker 3: It was upsetting, but he was moving away to pursue

293
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Speaker 3: his career, and so I said to him, like, I

294
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Speaker 3: fully support that. You've got to do what's right for

295
00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:13,200
Speaker 3: you in your life right now. It was very sad, though,

296
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Speaker 3: because I think we were reaching the point where we

297
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Speaker 3: were going to be together. He had met my friends,

298
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Speaker 3: I'd met his friends, which was a big thing for me,

299
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Speaker 3: and things just felt good. And the way that he

300
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Speaker 3: spoke to me, the way he treated me, was just

301
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Speaker 3: something that I hadn't experienced in a long time. So

302
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Speaker 3: it was sad to say goodbye to that.

303
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Speaker 4: And so was there any conversation about maybe finding a

304
00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:43,960
Speaker 4: way to stay together, like you going to where he was,

305
00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:47,120
Speaker 4: or doing a long distance relationship, or ultimately figuring out

306
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Speaker 4: a way that you could be in the same place

307
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Speaker 4: together given how well it was going for both of you.

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Speaker 3: One of my friends had brought that up, but at

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Speaker 3: the time it just didn't seem viable. I have a

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Speaker 3: business here, so I wasn't able to and you know,

311
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Speaker 3: he was studying a new career, so you know he

312
00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:08,239
Speaker 3: was going to be meeting lots of new people and

313
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Speaker 3: going to be very busy, and only four months that

314
00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:13,920
Speaker 3: would be we had been together, so it seemed it

315
00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:16,199
Speaker 3: would be a little bit too quick to make that

316
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Speaker 3: step forwards of you know, could we move to the

317
00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:21,879
Speaker 3: same country together, could we even live together? You know,

318
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Speaker 3: it seemed a little bit too fast, and it felt

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Speaker 3: quite natural just to let it go and say goodbye.

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Speaker 4: That ended maybe about a year and a half ago.

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Speaker 3: Yes, that's right, Adam.

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Speaker 2: What's so encouraging there is that small, short relationship gave

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Speaker 2: you a taste of what it should feel like when

324
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Speaker 2: you don't have to be anxious and worried and checking

325
00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:49,439
Speaker 2: up and not getting information and catching small discrepancies and

326
00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:52,959
Speaker 2: truth and those kinds of things. When someone's communicative and

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00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:55,680
Speaker 2: can show up for you and has the same priorities

328
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Speaker 2: and values that you do in terms of honesty and cheating,

329
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Speaker 2: you got to take of that. I'm curious, since then, then,

330
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Speaker 2: have you been able to keep that taste going in

331
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Speaker 2: your latest elections of people you dated?

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Speaker 3: Well, since him, I haven't dated anybody. And you know,

333
00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:20,160
Speaker 3: after that relationship, I kind of made the choice that no,

334
00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:22,399
Speaker 3: I think I just need to take time and be

335
00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:26,080
Speaker 3: with myself, and that is kind of extended into you know,

336
00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:28,240
Speaker 3: I'm single, I don't need to have anybody. But I

337
00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:32,280
Speaker 3: think part of it is a bit worried that, you know,

338
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Speaker 3: I'm going to find somebody again, and this whole cycle

339
00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:40,000
Speaker 3: of lying and cheating is going to thought again, and

340
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Speaker 3: I just don't have the energy for that anymore. It's

341
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Speaker 3: just too emotionally draining.

342
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Speaker 4: I want to just go back to my question from earlier.

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Speaker 4: So were only together four months and he was leaving

344
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Speaker 4: to go change careers. So he must have known at

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Speaker 4: some point in those four months, pretty early on that

346
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Speaker 4: he would be leaving, right.

347
00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:04,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's interesting actually, because things were going incredibly well,

348
00:19:05,560 --> 00:19:09,160
Speaker 3: and towards the end, I noticed he started to distance

349
00:19:09,240 --> 00:19:12,680
Speaker 3: himself quite quickly compared to how close we were. He

350
00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:16,879
Speaker 3: distanced himself quite quickly. So I did confront him and

351
00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:19,680
Speaker 3: ask him like, what is going on, Like are you,

352
00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:22,000
Speaker 3: you know, changing your mind about us? And that's when

353
00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:24,040
Speaker 3: he told me that he was leaving. And he also

354
00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:26,040
Speaker 3: thought it was a good idea that we kind of

355
00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:28,639
Speaker 3: pumped the brakes considering that he would be leaving.

356
00:19:29,359 --> 00:19:33,680
Speaker 4: But here's another example of even though he didn't cheat

357
00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:37,440
Speaker 4: on you, there seemed to be open lines of communications

358
00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:41,639
Speaker 4: compared to your other relationships. This was a big omission

359
00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:45,840
Speaker 4: that he had this thing going on that he was

360
00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:48,680
Speaker 4: going to be leaving, and instead of telling you that,

361
00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:53,680
Speaker 4: he just pulled back and then you had to confront him.

362
00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:56,120
Speaker 4: And then he was honest with you about what was happening,

363
00:19:56,720 --> 00:19:59,240
Speaker 4: but he wasn't proactive about coming to you and saying

364
00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:03,960
Speaker 4: here's what's happening. So I think when you talk about

365
00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:06,639
Speaker 4: this year and a half of feeling like, well, I

366
00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:10,640
Speaker 4: don't need anyone, it sounds like from a very young

367
00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:13,680
Speaker 4: age you've been quite lonely. Your mother died when you

368
00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:17,960
Speaker 4: were nine, your family didn't talk about it, You've had

369
00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:22,960
Speaker 4: some difficulty with your father, and you've had these relationships

370
00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:27,439
Speaker 4: that have been very distressing. And I can see why

371
00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:33,000
Speaker 4: it might feel safer to say I would rather be

372
00:20:33,119 --> 00:20:38,880
Speaker 4: self sufficient than acknowledge my desire to have a partner.

373
00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:43,200
Speaker 4: But I think you wrote to us because you do

374
00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:44,440
Speaker 4: have a desire to.

375
00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:45,080
Speaker 3: Have a partner.

376
00:20:45,119 --> 00:20:47,080
Speaker 4: You just want to have a partner in a way

377
00:20:47,119 --> 00:20:50,080
Speaker 4: that you haven't quite experienced yet and want to figure

378
00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:52,720
Speaker 4: out how to do that. And so I think when

379
00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:56,639
Speaker 4: we talk about honesty, let's start with honesty towards yourself,

380
00:20:58,119 --> 00:21:00,639
Speaker 4: which is, it'll be really important for you to be

381
00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:05,400
Speaker 4: honest with yourself that you do have this desire that

382
00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:09,000
Speaker 4: you are lonely, that you would like to have a satisfying,

383
00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:16,040
Speaker 4: mutually fulfilling, trusting relationship. When other people lie to us,

384
00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:19,200
Speaker 4: sometimes we end up lying to ourselves. It just becomes

385
00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:23,200
Speaker 4: such a part of the atmosphere that there's just nobody

386
00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:25,879
Speaker 4: acknowledging the truth. So I want if anyone's going to

387
00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:28,000
Speaker 4: be honest with you, I want you to be honest

388
00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:28,280
Speaker 4: with you.

389
00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:31,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, now I think you're right. I think I noticed

390
00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:36,320
Speaker 3: that in hindsight afterwards with my ex that there were

391
00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:39,080
Speaker 3: so many red flags at one point, and I was

392
00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:42,240
Speaker 3: just turning a blind eye, and I asked myself why

393
00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:44,840
Speaker 3: I was doing that. I don't think I realized at

394
00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:48,000
Speaker 3: the time I was lying to myself that these things

395
00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:52,440
Speaker 3: weren't really happening when it was quite obvious that they were.

396
00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:55,879
Speaker 2: And so it's interesting there, Adam, because two things that

397
00:21:55,920 --> 00:22:00,960
Speaker 2: are important to you, honesty and trust are the things

398
00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:03,960
Speaker 2: you need to repair within yourself in a way. The honesty,

399
00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:08,080
Speaker 2: as Laur just explained, and the trust as well. And

400
00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:11,199
Speaker 2: you to trust yourself. Means that when you say I

401
00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:14,920
Speaker 2: won't accept something, you indeed won't and you won't turn

402
00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:17,920
Speaker 2: a blind eye to so many incidences of that very

403
00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:20,840
Speaker 2: thing that you said you won't accept. When you set

404
00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:23,399
Speaker 2: a standard for yourself that then you reflect to the

405
00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:27,399
Speaker 2: other person, But then you don't maintain that standard, you

406
00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:30,800
Speaker 2: begin to lose trust in yourself as well. So both

407
00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:34,359
Speaker 2: honesty and trust are things you need to repair within

408
00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:38,920
Speaker 2: yourself in your own internal dialogue before you can repair

409
00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:40,440
Speaker 2: them outside.

410
00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:43,919
Speaker 3: I have been avoiding it, I think, deep down, if

411
00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:46,520
Speaker 3: I ask myself, it has been more about me avoiding

412
00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:49,960
Speaker 3: being hurt. And there are a lot of excuses as

413
00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:53,159
Speaker 3: to why, you know, my career, I'm too busy, I this,

414
00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:55,880
Speaker 3: that and the other, But actually I think it's those

415
00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:57,399
Speaker 3: are all just excuses.

416
00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:00,880
Speaker 4: Can we hear a little bit more about where some

417
00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:04,120
Speaker 4: of this might have started. Can we hear a little

418
00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:06,280
Speaker 4: bit more about what happened when you were nine?

419
00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:12,280
Speaker 3: Yeah? So my mom passed away when I was nine

420
00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:16,919
Speaker 3: years old. She had cancer. She was diagnosed when I

421
00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:21,160
Speaker 3: was about four years old, but of course I wasn't

422
00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:24,200
Speaker 3: really aware of what was going on until I was

423
00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:28,920
Speaker 3: about seven eight. That's when I really started to get

424
00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:33,280
Speaker 3: a deeper understanding of her illness and what that meant.

425
00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:38,399
Speaker 4: You got a deeper understanding because your parents communicated that

426
00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:42,439
Speaker 4: to you, or because you just intuited it from watching

427
00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:43,600
Speaker 4: what was going on around you.

428
00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:47,560
Speaker 3: Both, I think both. My dad was very honest with us,

429
00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:50,440
Speaker 3: especially towards the end. We would have family meetings where

430
00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:53,439
Speaker 3: we would sit down and he would tell us, you know,

431
00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:59,320
Speaker 3: the condition that my mom was in. But also before that,

432
00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:02,720
Speaker 3: I would notice that I spent so much of my

433
00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:04,960
Speaker 3: time with her as a kid, and there are a

434
00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:06,639
Speaker 3: lot of times where I could see that she was

435
00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:09,800
Speaker 3: just really really struggling. And at school as well. I mean,

436
00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:12,480
Speaker 3: all the teachers knew as well, so they would pull

437
00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:15,520
Speaker 3: me aside sometimes and kind of try and get me

438
00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:17,439
Speaker 3: to talk about it or ask me if I'm okay.

439
00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:20,120
Speaker 3: So there was just a lot of things that I noticed.

440
00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:23,400
Speaker 3: My dad did, like speak to us very honestly about

441
00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:25,480
Speaker 3: what was going to happen.

442
00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:28,080
Speaker 4: What about your mom, did she speak to you about

443
00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:28,960
Speaker 4: what was happening?

444
00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:35,320
Speaker 3: No, that's a good question. I think actually in all

445
00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:38,159
Speaker 3: of these family meetings, I think my mom found it

446
00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:40,760
Speaker 3: probably too difficult to be there. You know, I have

447
00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:44,840
Speaker 3: two sisters, and I think she probably thought it was

448
00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:47,560
Speaker 3: going to be too difficult to see our reaction when

449
00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:51,080
Speaker 3: we were told that she was dying and that, you know,

450
00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:53,960
Speaker 3: there was nothing that could be done to stop that.

451
00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:58,280
Speaker 4: I'm sure there was a period when she thought that

452
00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:02,040
Speaker 4: she might be able to get through the cancer. Did

453
00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:05,560
Speaker 4: she ever say to you, hey, I'm sick, but we're

454
00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:09,600
Speaker 4: treating it, and you know, we're hoping it's going to

455
00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:12,480
Speaker 4: be okay. It just was never acknowledged that she was

456
00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:13,920
Speaker 4: sick by her.

457
00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:19,359
Speaker 3: I have no memories really of her talking about it.

458
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:22,200
Speaker 3: I remember when she was, you know, in her last

459
00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:28,480
Speaker 3: few days, she spoke to us because we were with her,

460
00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:31,280
Speaker 3: and you know, she said that she didn't want us

461
00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:34,040
Speaker 3: to be upset about what was happening. Other than that,

462
00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:37,440
Speaker 3: I don't have any memories of her, you know, actively

463
00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:40,960
Speaker 3: talking about it with us. I think she probably tried

464
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:45,200
Speaker 3: to avoid talking about it as much as possible.

465
00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:50,879
Speaker 4: I can understand why, as your mother, it must have

466
00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:53,679
Speaker 4: been so painful for her to imagine how upsetting it

467
00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:56,480
Speaker 4: would be for you and your sisters to lose her.

468
00:25:57,240 --> 00:25:59,920
Speaker 4: But the message that she gave trying to protect you

469
00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:05,680
Speaker 4: was don't be upset about this incredibly life changing, upsetting thing.

470
00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:11,359
Speaker 4: And I'm thinking about how you started the conversation today saying, yeah,

471
00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:13,320
Speaker 4: he didn't tell me where he was and he was

472
00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:15,679
Speaker 4: not truthful about that, but it was just small things.

473
00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:21,639
Speaker 4: I wasn't really upset. So this idea that you're not

474
00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:26,320
Speaker 4: supposed to be upset about something that is incredibly upsetting

475
00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:32,439
Speaker 4: has lived inside of you for quite a long time.

476
00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:35,760
Speaker 4: She wasn't saying, I know this is going to be

477
00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:39,160
Speaker 4: really upsetting. I love you so much. It's so painful

478
00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:41,480
Speaker 4: to know that I'm not going to be here for you.

479
00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:45,200
Speaker 4: It's okay, don't be upset, but I'm dying, but don't

480
00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:51,359
Speaker 4: be upset. And I understand her intention was loving, but

481
00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:54,320
Speaker 4: the message is something that you seem to keep living

482
00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:56,480
Speaker 4: out in your relationships.

483
00:26:56,920 --> 00:27:00,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's interesting. With many different things, that's been the

484
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:04,520
Speaker 3: case where I, you know, something might be quite painful,

485
00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:09,679
Speaker 3: and I don't give it the space that it probably needs,

486
00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:13,480
Speaker 3: and I do minimize it and I avoid talking about

487
00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:17,000
Speaker 3: it with lots of things. But I mean, especially you

488
00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:20,800
Speaker 3: know the topic of my mom. I've never really shared

489
00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:25,440
Speaker 3: it with anybody, even like my close relationships. It's something

490
00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:29,600
Speaker 3: that I feel like I shouldn't burden them with that.

491
00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:32,520
Speaker 3: It's something that people don't need to hear. It's a

492
00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:36,080
Speaker 3: lot to take in, So I just don't.

493
00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:41,560
Speaker 2: But that there is the legacy of that last wish

494
00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:44,719
Speaker 2: of your mom, don't be upset, And I think that

495
00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:48,560
Speaker 2: you internalize that to mean that your feelings can be

496
00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:53,679
Speaker 2: a burden to other people. And I'm wondering that was

497
00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:56,399
Speaker 2: your mom. You mentioned that teachers pulled you out to

498
00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:58,480
Speaker 2: check in and see how you were doing because they

499
00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:01,879
Speaker 2: knew what was going on. But in your family, in

500
00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:04,920
Speaker 2: these family meetings, in one on ones with your dad

501
00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:09,080
Speaker 2: or your sisters, was there any discussion of how you felt,

502
00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:11,840
Speaker 2: not just what was going on, but how you felt

503
00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:14,080
Speaker 2: about what was going on. Was that something that was

504
00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:15,199
Speaker 2: discussed in the family.

505
00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:20,720
Speaker 3: No, from my memory, no, it was more about the

506
00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:24,320
Speaker 3: things that were happening and what will happen. We didn't

507
00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:28,840
Speaker 3: actually talk much about how we felt, you know, before, during,

508
00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:33,879
Speaker 3: and after, we never really had that discussion.

509
00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:38,920
Speaker 2: Have you ever tried in your family since to have

510
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:41,840
Speaker 2: a talk with anyone, whether your sisters or your dad,

511
00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:45,640
Speaker 2: about how you felt about your mom dying when you

512
00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:48,080
Speaker 2: were so young, No, we haven't.

513
00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:51,720
Speaker 3: You know, when it comes to my mom's birthday and

514
00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:54,800
Speaker 3: her death anniversary. We were all share a message saying

515
00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:59,720
Speaker 3: that we're thinking about her. That's as deep as it's gone.

516
00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:03,680
Speaker 3: I mean, when we're all together, we might share a

517
00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:06,000
Speaker 3: couple of memories here and there, but we never talked

518
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:09,040
Speaker 3: about the actual experience of what we went through as

519
00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:09,560
Speaker 3: a family.

520
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:14,600
Speaker 4: How old were your sisters when your mom died?

521
00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:17,880
Speaker 3: I was nine. I had one sister that was eleven

522
00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:19,720
Speaker 3: and thirteen, So.

523
00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:23,800
Speaker 4: You were really the youngest and the least able probably

524
00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:27,040
Speaker 4: to know how to talk about what was going on.

525
00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:27,840
Speaker 3: Yeah.

526
00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:32,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, so you're nine years old and your mom passes away.

527
00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:36,040
Speaker 2: What was the grieving like for you? We were to

528
00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:38,120
Speaker 2: see you then, what would we be seeing that was

529
00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:40,320
Speaker 2: going on with you? So you weren't talking about how

530
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:43,840
Speaker 2: you felt, but how were you managing? What did it

531
00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:46,320
Speaker 2: look like to see you managing in the aftermath?

532
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:51,440
Speaker 3: When my dad told us that she was going to die,

533
00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:54,280
Speaker 3: that was a moment that we all broke down as

534
00:29:54,280 --> 00:30:00,760
Speaker 3: a family. And also the night that she did, she

535
00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:03,080
Speaker 3: died at home. She decided she wanted to be at

536
00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:05,880
Speaker 3: home for her last few days. I mean I was

537
00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:12,280
Speaker 3: hysterically crying watching it happen. In front of me, and

538
00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:15,120
Speaker 3: I think the following days. I mean I remember bits

539
00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:16,880
Speaker 3: and pieces, but a lot of it is just kind

540
00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:20,000
Speaker 3: of blank. I mean, I know that I was really

541
00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:23,360
Speaker 3: hurt and really upset, but as very little that I

542
00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:26,680
Speaker 3: remember about what happened after that she died.

543
00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:29,400
Speaker 4: When you got the news that your mother was going

544
00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:32,480
Speaker 4: to die, and you said you broke down and were crying,

545
00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:36,280
Speaker 4: was there anyone there to comfort you? What happened to

546
00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:36,800
Speaker 4: that moment?

547
00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:39,840
Speaker 3: I remember it quite clearly, and we were all sat

548
00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:43,560
Speaker 3: in different places in our living room, and I think

549
00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:47,560
Speaker 3: we all just broke down. We didn't know come together

550
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:49,880
Speaker 3: or embrace each other or anything like that. We all

551
00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:54,240
Speaker 3: kind of just sat in our own place and cried separately.

552
00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:57,160
Speaker 4: And no one came and hugged you or tried to

553
00:30:57,200 --> 00:30:59,880
Speaker 4: comfort you in any way.

554
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:03,200
Speaker 3: I'm sure my dad maybe did at some point, but

555
00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:06,720
Speaker 3: that wasn't something that he really did too much from

556
00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:08,840
Speaker 3: my childhood. He didn't really hug and.

557
00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:12,120
Speaker 4: Once you got that news, your mom wasn't in the

558
00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:15,800
Speaker 4: room when that news was delivered to you, So did

559
00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:21,440
Speaker 4: everybody just not acknowledge it to your mom? Meaning nobody said, hey, mom,

560
00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:25,400
Speaker 4: we're so sad. Dad told us that you're going to die,

561
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:29,400
Speaker 4: so you just carried on with your mom as if

562
00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:33,720
Speaker 4: things were normal. Nobody acknowledged that this news had been

563
00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:35,520
Speaker 4: delivered to the three of you.

564
00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:36,800
Speaker 3: No.

565
00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:40,720
Speaker 2: No, So there's something that you learned there very young,

566
00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:47,160
Speaker 2: which is you can have huge feelings for really good reason,

567
00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:52,280
Speaker 2: and you have to carry them by yourself. You don't

568
00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:55,440
Speaker 2: share them with people. People don't ask you about them,

569
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:57,720
Speaker 2: you don't ask other people who you know are having

570
00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:02,360
Speaker 2: similar feelings about theirs. This idea of you have to

571
00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:06,680
Speaker 2: go on as if things are normal. And I'm saying

572
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:10,280
Speaker 2: that in that way because it's a bit the rationalization

573
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:16,040
Speaker 2: you had about the cheating with the longer relationship, which

574
00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:17,960
Speaker 2: is that there was a part of you that just

575
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:20,160
Speaker 2: wanted to go on as if things were normal. You

576
00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:24,760
Speaker 2: had to learn how to compartmentalize or put aside your

577
00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:27,640
Speaker 2: feelings or just sit with them yourself without being able

578
00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:30,520
Speaker 2: to share them from a really young age. You've gotten

579
00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:33,200
Speaker 2: really good at it, at being able to sit with

580
00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:38,440
Speaker 2: big feelings and not have them validated by anyone, and

581
00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:43,080
Speaker 2: then you end up questioning their validity because if you

582
00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:47,600
Speaker 2: couldn't even get validation for how horrible and difficult it

583
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:50,719
Speaker 2: was when your mom was dying and then died in

584
00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:53,280
Speaker 2: the home and in front of you, and that couldn't

585
00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:58,320
Speaker 2: get validated externally, verbally or in other kinds of ways.

586
00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:01,800
Speaker 2: Then that's the legacy that you kind of bring forth.

587
00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:04,760
Speaker 2: The idea of my feelings won't get validated, there's no

588
00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:07,720
Speaker 2: point in really talking about them too much.

589
00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:15,600
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. It wasn't until quite recently that somebody, you know,

590
00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:20,959
Speaker 3: I've been doing therapy as well, that I was asked,

591
00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:23,960
Speaker 3: how who do you share this stuff with? Who do

592
00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:27,720
Speaker 3: you share these memories with about your mom or that experience?

593
00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:30,680
Speaker 3: And it was only then that I kind of looked

594
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:34,240
Speaker 3: back and I thought, for over twenty years, I haven't

595
00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:37,480
Speaker 3: shared it with anybody. You know, there are very specific

596
00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:42,640
Speaker 3: things about that experience which even the closest people in

597
00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:45,640
Speaker 3: my life, I'd never shared that with them at all.

598
00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:51,040
Speaker 4: Can you tell us a little bit about what happened

599
00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:53,760
Speaker 4: between you and your dad since then? Did your father

600
00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:56,600
Speaker 4: remarry or was it you and your sisters and your

601
00:33:56,720 --> 00:33:57,640
Speaker 4: dad after that?

602
00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:03,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, so my family's a little bit complicated. He didn't remarry,

603
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:06,800
Speaker 3: but he was in a very long term relationship. I

604
00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:09,960
Speaker 3: think when I was about eleven, he got into a

605
00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:14,760
Speaker 3: new relationship and they were together for about ten years.

606
00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:18,680
Speaker 3: They broke up in the end. So she was a

607
00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:21,840
Speaker 3: big part of my life growing up, but she didn't

608
00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:24,880
Speaker 3: have much experience with kids. She kind of just got

609
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:28,719
Speaker 3: thrown in with three teenagers at that point.

610
00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:32,239
Speaker 4: When she moved in, did the house still have the

611
00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:34,600
Speaker 4: presence of your mom and it meaning there was still

612
00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:38,839
Speaker 4: pictures of for you kids, so that both things could

613
00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:41,920
Speaker 4: co exist. There's the memory of your mom and then

614
00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:44,560
Speaker 4: there's this new person in the house. Was there any

615
00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:47,080
Speaker 4: kind of presence of your mom that continued in the

616
00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:48,319
Speaker 4: house after she died?

617
00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:53,080
Speaker 3: You know, when she moved in, a lot did change.

618
00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:56,120
Speaker 3: A lot changed quite quickly. You know, the color of

619
00:34:56,160 --> 00:34:58,960
Speaker 3: the walls, you know the decorations, and it was a

620
00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:03,879
Speaker 3: very very different dial to what we had before. There

621
00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:08,040
Speaker 3: were a few pictures I think of my mum in

622
00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:11,080
Speaker 3: the house, but not many, not many at all.

623
00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:14,440
Speaker 2: What was that like for you when she moves in

624
00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:19,239
Speaker 2: and the house changes, because as kids, that often feels

625
00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:22,200
Speaker 2: like a bit of the betrayal in terms of your

626
00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:25,279
Speaker 2: mom or being replaced, et cetera. Do you remember how

627
00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:28,920
Speaker 2: you felt about her moving in and about the I'm

628
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:30,680
Speaker 2: going to guess that nobody asked you how you felt

629
00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:34,000
Speaker 2: about her moving in, But correct me if that's incorrect.

630
00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:36,000
Speaker 2: But do you remember how you felt about her moving

631
00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:37,080
Speaker 2: in and those changes?

632
00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:39,480
Speaker 3: No, you're right, I don't think anybody did ask me.

633
00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:42,440
Speaker 3: But it did feel like a betrayal. I don't think

634
00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:45,200
Speaker 3: I have a voice that it felt like a lot

635
00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:49,879
Speaker 3: of my mum's essence was being quite like literally being

636
00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:54,040
Speaker 3: painted over, you know. And yeah, it was sad. It

637
00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:58,319
Speaker 3: was sad to see these things that you know, I

638
00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:03,879
Speaker 3: considered a a home be changed now. It was quite

639
00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:04,839
Speaker 3: confusing as well.

640
00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:12,239
Speaker 4: There wasn't a lot of awareness of how having a

641
00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:15,680
Speaker 4: connection to your mom would be important to the kids

642
00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:20,120
Speaker 4: in the house. It seems like not only were you

643
00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:22,359
Speaker 4: not asked about it, but there was just a lack

644
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:25,359
Speaker 4: of awareness that there might even be feelings about it.

645
00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:31,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I think because it wasn't something that we

646
00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:37,839
Speaker 3: talked about. For me, it just seemed somewhat normal, and

647
00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:42,160
Speaker 3: you know, with somebody else moving into the house, it

648
00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:44,560
Speaker 3: was already a big change. It was like a big

649
00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:47,640
Speaker 3: change to the way that we did things and our schedules.

650
00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:50,560
Speaker 3: And it was also at the point of time in

651
00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:53,560
Speaker 3: my life where I was changing as well as changing school,

652
00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:57,120
Speaker 3: and all these new things were happening. It was overwhelming,

653
00:36:57,160 --> 00:37:00,680
Speaker 3: and I was very little discussion about what was going on.

654
00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:03,680
Speaker 4: Did you have friends at school at that time.

655
00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:06,759
Speaker 3: I had one good friend at the time when I

656
00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:10,120
Speaker 3: was quite young. I mean, a lot of my friends

657
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:12,520
Speaker 3: knew that my mom had passed away, but it was

658
00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:14,640
Speaker 3: never something that we talked about.

659
00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:19,359
Speaker 2: You said that you left home and home being home

660
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:23,400
Speaker 2: and country when you were really young. It sounded a

661
00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:26,279
Speaker 2: little bit like you were in a hurry to lead.

662
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:28,440
Speaker 2: Tell me if that's the case, and tell me, if so,

663
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:31,000
Speaker 2: why you were in a hurry to leave.

664
00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:34,080
Speaker 3: No, you're right, it was pretty much as soon as

665
00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:37,400
Speaker 3: I turned eighteen, getting on a plane and going halfway

666
00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:40,040
Speaker 3: across the world. I think there was just a lot

667
00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:43,040
Speaker 3: about my home life which I wasn't very happy about.

668
00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:45,680
Speaker 3: I did feel alone. I don't think at that point

669
00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:48,319
Speaker 3: I had many people in my life that I would

670
00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:52,200
Speaker 3: have considered close. It just made sense to me to

671
00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:56,200
Speaker 3: get up and completely change the environment and to see

672
00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:59,680
Speaker 3: what happened. And in many ways it was very good.

673
00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:02,239
Speaker 3: I made lots of really close friends by doing that

674
00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:05,920
Speaker 3: and had lots of great experiences. But You're right, it

675
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:08,520
Speaker 3: was a get up and go as quickly as I could.

676
00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:10,840
Speaker 4: You talked a little bit in your letter about the

677
00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:13,080
Speaker 4: struggles that you've had with your dad. Can you tell

678
00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:13,840
Speaker 4: us about those.

679
00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:18,200
Speaker 3: Yeah. From a young age, I was very close with

680
00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:22,920
Speaker 3: my mom, and I always was a little bit scared

681
00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:25,560
Speaker 3: of my dad, not because he was, you know, a

682
00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:28,520
Speaker 3: bad guy or anything. It was just, you know, sometimes

683
00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:30,239
Speaker 3: he could lose his temper and I found that a

684
00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:33,759
Speaker 3: little bit scary, and so from a young age, I

685
00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:36,560
Speaker 3: was always quite kept my distance from him and was

686
00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:40,399
Speaker 3: spent all my time with my mom. After my mom

687
00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:45,200
Speaker 3: passed away, we did spend time together, and we would

688
00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:48,759
Speaker 3: have some pretty big arguments as well. We had like

689
00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:52,440
Speaker 3: a few big blowouts. Even up until recently, we've had

690
00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:57,600
Speaker 3: some huge arguments. You know. There be certainly been times

691
00:38:57,640 --> 00:39:02,480
Speaker 3: where I've been the instigator or pushing his buttons, but

692
00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:04,560
Speaker 3: I think a lot of them has also been him

693
00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:11,600
Speaker 3: unfairly being angry at me over something and even afterwards

694
00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:15,239
Speaker 3: not quite getting an apology. It's kind of the same

695
00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:17,640
Speaker 3: thing where it's a sorry, but it's not really a

696
00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:20,800
Speaker 3: deep apology about what happened and what went wrong.

697
00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:26,480
Speaker 4: I'm just noticing how you minimize his anger. You said, well,

698
00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:29,719
Speaker 4: I kind of avoided him when I was younger because

699
00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:32,000
Speaker 4: he had a little bit of a temper. You know,

700
00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:35,680
Speaker 4: a temper from an adult when you're young and small

701
00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:41,600
Speaker 4: is incredibly scary, very frightening to see an adult with

702
00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:46,399
Speaker 4: that big kind of rage, even if other times he's

703
00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:49,880
Speaker 4: very loving and kind. I just want you to notice

704
00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:54,000
Speaker 4: how much you minimize the experiences that happened to you

705
00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:59,680
Speaker 4: that elicits some kind of emotion in you, like fear

706
00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:05,520
Speaker 4: or sadness, or even your own anger at your boyfriend

707
00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:07,960
Speaker 4: for cheating or at your father for being angry with you.

708
00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:12,640
Speaker 4: These external things get minimized, and then you don't allow

709
00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:17,839
Speaker 4: yourself to feel your feelings because you're not really acknowledging

710
00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:19,799
Speaker 4: how these things are affecting you.

711
00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:25,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's interesting. A friend actually pointed that out to

712
00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:28,440
Speaker 3: me not too long ago, where they said, you know, you,

713
00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:33,480
Speaker 3: even when you're telling somebody about something bad that happened,

714
00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:36,920
Speaker 3: you always kind of give a little clause at the

715
00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:39,839
Speaker 3: beginning at the end, where for example, with my ex,

716
00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:42,800
Speaker 3: I would say, you know, I wasn't a perfect boyfriend either,

717
00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:46,400
Speaker 3: so obviously I didn't do anything to the same levels

718
00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:48,480
Speaker 3: as you did, but there would always be some kind

719
00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:52,759
Speaker 3: of bookended by these things about myself.

720
00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:58,080
Speaker 2: You mentioned in your letter an incident with your mom's

721
00:40:58,120 --> 00:41:01,120
Speaker 2: wedding and that was a big dispute with your dad

722
00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:04,600
Speaker 2: who that would be left for. Can you tell us

723
00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:05,600
Speaker 2: about what happened there?

724
00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:10,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was all quite dramatic. My elder sister she

725
00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:14,480
Speaker 3: when she got married, my dad decided to give her

726
00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:16,800
Speaker 3: the wedding ring, and my brother in law at the

727
00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:19,239
Speaker 3: time was very gracious. He came to me and my

728
00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:22,360
Speaker 3: other sister and asked if we felt okay with the

729
00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:26,399
Speaker 3: ring going towards my elder sister. I was totally fine

730
00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:28,520
Speaker 3: with it. I felt very happy that it would go

731
00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:30,400
Speaker 3: to her and she was going to start this family

732
00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:33,480
Speaker 3: and it was going to be great. But a few

733
00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:37,480
Speaker 3: weeks later I got an email from my auntie and

734
00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:39,279
Speaker 3: she was the one who had been taking care of

735
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:43,520
Speaker 3: the ring, and the email was worded in such a

736
00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:46,280
Speaker 3: way that made me question why she was sending this email.

737
00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:50,000
Speaker 3: And she asked me if I was sure that I

738
00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:54,880
Speaker 3: was okay with the ring going to my sister, and

739
00:41:55,840 --> 00:41:58,240
Speaker 3: I said, of course, why would I have a problem,

740
00:41:58,719 --> 00:42:02,000
Speaker 3: And she told me, well, actually, Mom asked me to

741
00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:04,400
Speaker 3: keep the ring for you for when you were ready

742
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:06,640
Speaker 3: to get married. The ring was kept in the photo

743
00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:09,319
Speaker 3: frame of a picture of me and my mom. I

744
00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:12,040
Speaker 3: started to question a lot of things as well, like

745
00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:14,319
Speaker 3: it makes sense that it went to my auntie rather

746
00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:17,440
Speaker 3: than my dad because he's so disorganized and you know,

747
00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:22,359
Speaker 3: has a terrible memory. And a friend pointed out as

748
00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:25,000
Speaker 3: well that actually, it kind of makes sense that you'd

749
00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:27,480
Speaker 3: leave it to the boy in the family because they

750
00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:30,920
Speaker 3: would probably use it to propose. So I decided, with

751
00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:33,359
Speaker 3: no intention of trying to get the ring at all,

752
00:42:34,239 --> 00:42:39,360
Speaker 3: to talk to my dad about it. And I started

753
00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:43,759
Speaker 3: the conversation by saying, first of all, that this has

754
00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:45,799
Speaker 3: nothing to do with like the thing, like I don't

755
00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:48,719
Speaker 3: want to get anything from this, but also it was

756
00:42:48,760 --> 00:42:51,400
Speaker 3: super important that there were no arguments in the family

757
00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:55,759
Speaker 3: about this, and he agreed to that. And when I

758
00:42:55,800 --> 00:42:58,040
Speaker 3: started to tell him what my auntie had told me,

759
00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:02,080
Speaker 3: he just immediately shut it down. He said, no, there

760
00:43:02,120 --> 00:43:04,239
Speaker 3: was no way that my mom would have left me

761
00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:07,680
Speaker 3: the ring, and that if I was so desperate for

762
00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:09,959
Speaker 3: a ring, that I could have his wedding ring after

763
00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:12,839
Speaker 3: he died. And at that point I just I think

764
00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:15,520
Speaker 3: I just hung up the phone and he didn't keep

765
00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:17,360
Speaker 3: the promise. He brought it up with my auntie and

766
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:21,160
Speaker 3: they had a falling out over it as well. Luckily

767
00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:23,880
Speaker 3: there on good terms now, but I think at the

768
00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:25,000
Speaker 3: time it was quite heated.

769
00:43:25,520 --> 00:43:31,680
Speaker 2: There was something so moving to hear that your mom

770
00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:36,520
Speaker 2: thought so much about it that she left it for you,

771
00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:39,839
Speaker 2: with this picture of her and you together, gave it

772
00:43:39,880 --> 00:43:42,880
Speaker 2: to her sister, knowing her husband was disorganized for the

773
00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:46,080
Speaker 2: one day, years in the future, years and years in

774
00:43:46,120 --> 00:43:49,400
Speaker 2: the future from where she was. You might want to propose,

775
00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:53,160
Speaker 2: and you might want the ring. What was it like

776
00:43:53,239 --> 00:43:55,719
Speaker 2: for you to find out that she had given such

777
00:43:55,800 --> 00:43:58,640
Speaker 2: thought to it, that she had asked to do that

778
00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:01,400
Speaker 2: that your aunt had kept for so many years. What

779
00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:02,680
Speaker 2: was that like to hear that?

780
00:44:04,360 --> 00:44:08,000
Speaker 3: It was such a huge shock that nobody had ever

781
00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:13,320
Speaker 3: mentioned this to me. And on some level it felt

782
00:44:14,280 --> 00:44:17,759
Speaker 3: like I had communicated with my mom all this time

783
00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:21,319
Speaker 3: after she had passed away. It felt like she had

784
00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:24,680
Speaker 3: sent me a message. I think I spent a long

785
00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:28,120
Speaker 3: time just crying, because it really did feel like after

786
00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:31,680
Speaker 3: all that time, we still had that special connection that

787
00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:34,719
Speaker 3: I had when I was a kid, and that she

788
00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:39,000
Speaker 3: was thinking about me so far ahead and thinking about

789
00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:40,680
Speaker 3: all these things that I would do in my life.

790
00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:47,120
Speaker 3: So yeah, it was incredibly meaningful. But then again, on

791
00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:49,839
Speaker 3: the other hand, it felt like, well, is this real

792
00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:52,960
Speaker 3: like because apparently it's not. According to my dad.

793
00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:58,000
Speaker 4: It sounds like the experience that you have repeatedly with

794
00:44:58,040 --> 00:45:00,239
Speaker 4: people when you confront them with something that you know

795
00:45:01,040 --> 00:45:04,399
Speaker 4: and they tell you that that's not what's happening. So

796
00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:08,320
Speaker 4: you say, hey, you going on holiday. This doesn't sound right. Oh, no,

797
00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:13,520
Speaker 4: you're being paranoid. So I think that you do know

798
00:45:13,760 --> 00:45:18,400
Speaker 4: a lot, but you've had this experience repeatedly of being

799
00:45:18,400 --> 00:45:22,359
Speaker 4: told that what you know is not true, and that

800
00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:25,759
Speaker 4: can be incredibly confusing and it can really get in

801
00:45:25,760 --> 00:45:29,719
Speaker 4: the way of trusting yourself. And I'm so glad to

802
00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:33,920
Speaker 4: hear that you were able to feel when you were

803
00:45:33,920 --> 00:45:36,359
Speaker 4: told that your mom had left this to you and

804
00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:39,359
Speaker 4: that beautiful story. I was tearing up hearing that part

805
00:45:39,400 --> 00:45:42,080
Speaker 4: about the photo and how you were nine years old

806
00:45:42,120 --> 00:45:45,200
Speaker 4: and she thought, I can't be there for him, but

807
00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:48,640
Speaker 4: I'm going to connect with him in this way that

808
00:45:48,719 --> 00:45:50,600
Speaker 4: I have him in mind, and I want him to

809
00:45:50,640 --> 00:45:54,720
Speaker 4: know that I have him in mind. That's so lovely

810
00:45:55,400 --> 00:45:58,160
Speaker 4: and you were able to feel that, and then you

811
00:45:58,200 --> 00:46:00,520
Speaker 4: went to your father and he denied that those were

812
00:46:00,560 --> 00:46:04,160
Speaker 4: the facts. But what he couldn't deny was your experience.

813
00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:06,520
Speaker 4: And that's the part I want you to hold on to.

814
00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:11,600
Speaker 4: Nobody can take your experience away from you unless you

815
00:46:11,800 --> 00:46:14,719
Speaker 4: let that. And it sounds like in your relationships you

816
00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:18,080
Speaker 4: often let people take your experience away from you. I'm

817
00:46:18,080 --> 00:46:20,080
Speaker 4: feeling this, but no, I'm not going to feel this

818
00:46:20,160 --> 00:46:21,719
Speaker 4: because they're telling me this other thing.

819
00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:30,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, that sounds pretty right to me. It's in many

820
00:46:30,160 --> 00:46:32,799
Speaker 3: different aspects. I feel like I'm often being told that, no,

821
00:46:32,920 --> 00:46:36,399
Speaker 3: it's not that way, it's this way, And like you said,

822
00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:40,560
Speaker 3: it's very confusing and very disorientating, and it's hard to

823
00:46:40,560 --> 00:46:41,520
Speaker 3: know which way is up.

824
00:46:42,040 --> 00:46:45,040
Speaker 2: Are you dating now? Did you say? Are you still

825
00:46:45,120 --> 00:46:46,560
Speaker 2: on the shelf with that?

826
00:46:47,960 --> 00:46:52,680
Speaker 3: I have a dating app, and you know, I talk

827
00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:56,000
Speaker 3: to people here and there, and on occasion, I might

828
00:46:56,000 --> 00:46:58,840
Speaker 3: talk to somebody that I think, Oh, this person's interesting,

829
00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:02,440
Speaker 3: and then when it gets to the point of okay,

830
00:47:02,520 --> 00:47:08,279
Speaker 3: let's meet up, I generally make excuses. I just think, like, oh,

831
00:47:08,320 --> 00:47:11,320
Speaker 3: I just now, it's not a good time. There's a

832
00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:14,799
Speaker 3: lot going on and it never gets to the point

833
00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:16,319
Speaker 3: where I go on a date.

834
00:47:17,640 --> 00:47:19,840
Speaker 4: I just go back to one thing with your aunt.

835
00:47:20,280 --> 00:47:24,120
Speaker 4: So when she told you this, you said, you've really

836
00:47:24,120 --> 00:47:27,759
Speaker 4: never talked about your mom's death with anyone. Was there

837
00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:30,960
Speaker 4: an opening there to talk with your aunt about your

838
00:47:31,000 --> 00:47:31,560
Speaker 4: mom's death?

839
00:47:34,120 --> 00:47:39,000
Speaker 3: You know, recently I did bring something up about my mom,

840
00:47:40,040 --> 00:47:43,000
Speaker 3: and for me, I felt like I had said a

841
00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:47,120
Speaker 3: little bit too much about how I felt growing up,

842
00:47:47,680 --> 00:47:49,640
Speaker 3: and this was all done by message, so it wasn't

843
00:47:49,680 --> 00:47:52,400
Speaker 3: a great medium to do it. And it wasn't until

844
00:47:52,440 --> 00:47:54,920
Speaker 3: the next day, I think she replied saying like, oh

845
00:47:54,960 --> 00:47:56,800
Speaker 3: that you know, you've given me a lot to think about,

846
00:47:57,160 --> 00:47:59,359
Speaker 3: you know, just talking about my experiences as a kid,

847
00:48:00,760 --> 00:48:04,359
Speaker 3: and that made it immediately made me feel like, oh,

848
00:48:04,360 --> 00:48:06,120
Speaker 3: I've shared too much. I shouldn't have said that.

849
00:48:06,360 --> 00:48:07,320
Speaker 2: What is it you said?

850
00:48:07,600 --> 00:48:11,239
Speaker 3: I think it was that our family would have benefited

851
00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:15,640
Speaker 3: from therapy like family therapy, that we never spoke about it,

852
00:48:15,680 --> 00:48:19,400
Speaker 3: and I understood that it was probably because we were

853
00:48:19,440 --> 00:48:22,640
Speaker 3: all in pain, I think, I said. I don't think

854
00:48:22,640 --> 00:48:26,120
Speaker 3: it's as a coincidence that I and actually my other

855
00:48:26,239 --> 00:48:29,799
Speaker 3: sister moved halfway across the world as soon as we

856
00:48:29,840 --> 00:48:33,360
Speaker 3: could I think there was something going on with us

857
00:48:32,640 --> 00:48:35,640
Speaker 3: that that made us want to leave as quickly as

858
00:48:35,680 --> 00:48:36,040
Speaker 3: we could.

859
00:48:36,440 --> 00:48:38,640
Speaker 2: And that's what your aunt said. You're giving me a

860
00:48:38,680 --> 00:48:41,400
Speaker 2: lot to think about because there's a bit of an

861
00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:44,680
Speaker 2: invitation in what you're saying to her to have a conversation.

862
00:48:45,360 --> 00:48:48,319
Speaker 3: It made me feel like I said just a little

863
00:48:48,360 --> 00:48:50,840
Speaker 3: bit too much, that perhaps I was saying that she

864
00:48:52,080 --> 00:48:55,040
Speaker 3: wasn't there enough for us as kids. I think maybe

865
00:48:55,080 --> 00:48:57,680
Speaker 3: she started to feel a little bit guilty that she

866
00:48:57,840 --> 00:49:03,000
Speaker 3: hadn't been there enough to support us. I might be wrong.

867
00:49:03,120 --> 00:49:05,520
Speaker 3: This is just coming from what I think, but it

868
00:49:07,040 --> 00:49:09,239
Speaker 3: made me feel like, Okay, this is not something I

869
00:49:09,280 --> 00:49:11,879
Speaker 3: can keep talking about with her. I didn't want to

870
00:49:12,160 --> 00:49:16,240
Speaker 3: make her feel any guilt or any burden.

871
00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:18,680
Speaker 4: So we're back to burden again. Guy had said that

872
00:49:19,000 --> 00:49:22,640
Speaker 4: your note was maybe an invitation, but I think that

873
00:49:22,880 --> 00:49:27,800
Speaker 4: she in her response was offering you an invitation too.

874
00:49:28,040 --> 00:49:30,920
Speaker 4: She wasn't saying everybody did the best they could, or

875
00:49:30,960 --> 00:49:33,880
Speaker 4: she didn't not respond. She said, this has given me

876
00:49:33,920 --> 00:49:37,120
Speaker 4: a lot to think about, which is very open ended,

877
00:49:37,400 --> 00:49:40,480
Speaker 4: and it makes me feel like there could have been

878
00:49:40,480 --> 00:49:45,120
Speaker 4: a potential opening there. But then your younger feelings came

879
00:49:45,160 --> 00:49:48,919
Speaker 4: in of I don't want to be a burden. Don't

880
00:49:48,960 --> 00:49:53,040
Speaker 4: be upset. Everybody did the best they could. However, you

881
00:49:53,200 --> 00:49:55,520
Speaker 4: justify it to yourself. You know, I don't want to

882
00:49:55,520 --> 00:49:59,480
Speaker 4: bring up with my boyfriends that they're cheating or lying

883
00:49:59,520 --> 00:50:04,240
Speaker 4: because I don't want to burden people with my emotional reaction.

884
00:50:05,719 --> 00:50:10,839
Speaker 4: That's really interesting to me how you interpret something very

885
00:50:10,840 --> 00:50:13,399
Speaker 4: differently from the way that I'm hearing it, not being

886
00:50:13,440 --> 00:50:17,719
Speaker 4: in your experience. You interpret it as, Oh, I said

887
00:50:17,760 --> 00:50:20,280
Speaker 4: too much, I was a burden. She must feel accused.

888
00:50:20,600 --> 00:50:23,080
Speaker 4: You create all these stories around it. You just don't

889
00:50:23,080 --> 00:50:24,240
Speaker 4: know if those stories are there.

890
00:50:24,480 --> 00:50:28,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's interesting. I never thought of her response in

891
00:50:29,000 --> 00:50:32,719
Speaker 3: that light, and now you say it, it makes a

892
00:50:32,760 --> 00:50:35,279
Speaker 3: lot more sense that she was. It was more of

893
00:50:35,320 --> 00:50:38,960
Speaker 3: a positive. I think that she was oneting to take

894
00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:40,520
Speaker 3: some time to think about what I said.

895
00:50:40,760 --> 00:50:46,000
Speaker 2: The thing that stops you from having these conversations different

896
00:50:46,120 --> 00:50:49,120
Speaker 2: feelings of yes, my feelings would be a burden, or

897
00:50:49,160 --> 00:50:52,879
Speaker 2: the other person might not want to But any kind

898
00:50:52,880 --> 00:50:55,719
Speaker 2: of interpretation always leads to the same path of so

899
00:50:55,800 --> 00:50:58,400
Speaker 2: let's not have these kinds of conversations. And that's the

900
00:50:58,440 --> 00:51:01,439
Speaker 2: thing to pay attention to. And despite the evidence all

901
00:51:01,560 --> 00:51:04,640
Speaker 2: roads lead to Okay, I won't have the conversation, I

902
00:51:04,680 --> 00:51:08,480
Speaker 2: won't date. I'll use the app, but basically not really.

903
00:51:08,640 --> 00:51:12,200
Speaker 2: You know, you're swiping and you're chatting, but you're not meeting.

904
00:51:12,640 --> 00:51:17,000
Speaker 2: There's again this big, big hesitancy to kind of engage

905
00:51:17,000 --> 00:51:19,320
Speaker 2: in the things that will evoke emotion.

906
00:51:20,280 --> 00:51:23,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, that's absolutely right. I totally see that.

907
00:51:29,440 --> 00:51:33,680
Speaker 2: So, Adam, we have some advice for you. We would

908
00:51:33,760 --> 00:51:38,240
Speaker 2: like you to this week email or text your sisters

909
00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:42,360
Speaker 2: and your dad and tell them that you've been thinking

910
00:51:42,760 --> 00:51:47,719
Speaker 2: about your mum a lot lately, and you know that

911
00:51:47,880 --> 00:51:51,800
Speaker 2: they think about her as well, and that you would

912
00:51:51,920 --> 00:51:55,839
Speaker 2: like it if on the next anniversary of her death,

913
00:51:56,239 --> 00:52:00,560
Speaker 2: you all got on a call and talked about a

914
00:52:00,600 --> 00:52:04,480
Speaker 2: little bit, shared some memories of her that would make

915
00:52:04,520 --> 00:52:07,239
Speaker 2: you feel good and you would really like that. The

916
00:52:07,280 --> 00:52:10,160
Speaker 2: emphasis is that you would like that to happen. You're

917
00:52:10,200 --> 00:52:13,120
Speaker 2: owning that that's something that you want. Now, I'm sure

918
00:52:13,160 --> 00:52:15,480
Speaker 2: you're thinking, I don't know what kind of response is

919
00:52:16,239 --> 00:52:19,719
Speaker 2: I will get from them. Neither do we. But the

920
00:52:19,760 --> 00:52:23,120
Speaker 2: goal here is to represent how you feel, and that

921
00:52:23,280 --> 00:52:25,080
Speaker 2: is something that you would like. It is a door

922
00:52:25,120 --> 00:52:28,440
Speaker 2: you would like to open. So that's the first part

923
00:52:29,000 --> 00:52:29,800
Speaker 2: of the assignment.

924
00:52:30,400 --> 00:52:33,080
Speaker 4: And what's important about that, as guy was saying, is

925
00:52:33,120 --> 00:52:36,200
Speaker 4: that this isn't so much about whether they respond or

926
00:52:36,239 --> 00:52:38,000
Speaker 4: if they respond in a way that you would like.

927
00:52:38,560 --> 00:52:40,919
Speaker 4: It's that you are putting what you would like out

928
00:52:40,960 --> 00:52:44,200
Speaker 4: there so that you can exercise that muscle and get

929
00:52:44,280 --> 00:52:46,640
Speaker 4: used to doing that. And that leads us into the

930
00:52:46,640 --> 00:52:51,080
Speaker 4: second part of the advice, which is that what happened

931
00:52:51,080 --> 00:52:54,760
Speaker 4: with your aunt is that when she told you about

932
00:52:54,800 --> 00:52:59,080
Speaker 4: the wedding ring, it happened on text or on email.

933
00:52:59,200 --> 00:53:01,319
Speaker 4: It was not where she could see you. She does

934
00:53:01,400 --> 00:53:04,399
Speaker 4: not know that you broke down crying, you had this

935
00:53:05,239 --> 00:53:07,960
Speaker 4: really lovely feeling of being connected to your mom again.

936
00:53:09,120 --> 00:53:13,279
Speaker 4: And also we think you made some interpretations about her

937
00:53:13,360 --> 00:53:17,400
Speaker 4: response to your other text about being a burden. We

938
00:53:17,480 --> 00:53:20,920
Speaker 4: think it was sort of potentially an invitation, and so

939
00:53:21,000 --> 00:53:25,040
Speaker 4: we would like you to contact your aunt and say

940
00:53:25,080 --> 00:53:27,360
Speaker 4: to her, you know, when you told me about the

941
00:53:27,400 --> 00:53:31,239
Speaker 4: wedding ring, it moved me so much. It was so

942
00:53:31,520 --> 00:53:36,719
Speaker 4: nice to hear something about my mom and me from you.

943
00:53:37,320 --> 00:53:38,759
Speaker 4: And when I sent you that other text and you

944
00:53:38,800 --> 00:53:40,520
Speaker 4: said it was a lot to think about, I was

945
00:53:40,560 --> 00:53:45,000
Speaker 4: really glad that I could share that with you. And

946
00:53:45,040 --> 00:53:48,640
Speaker 4: now that I'm in my thirties and I don't have

947
00:53:48,960 --> 00:53:53,439
Speaker 4: memories of my mom past nine years old, it would

948
00:53:53,480 --> 00:53:55,640
Speaker 4: mean so much to me if maybe you could share

949
00:53:56,040 --> 00:53:59,359
Speaker 4: with me some parts of my mom that I either

950
00:53:59,400 --> 00:54:02,920
Speaker 4: don't remember or happened before I was born. I just

951
00:54:02,960 --> 00:54:05,719
Speaker 4: wanted to get to know her better. I would love

952
00:54:05,719 --> 00:54:07,799
Speaker 4: to hear stories about me and my mom when I

953
00:54:07,840 --> 00:54:10,680
Speaker 4: was little. What was my mom like as a little girl,

954
00:54:11,520 --> 00:54:14,480
Speaker 4: What are some funny stories that happened in her life?

955
00:54:15,120 --> 00:54:17,040
Speaker 4: If you could help me get to know her better,

956
00:54:17,080 --> 00:54:20,600
Speaker 4: that would mean so much to me. And see what

957
00:54:20,680 --> 00:54:24,560
Speaker 4: happens when you open the door that way with her.

958
00:54:25,800 --> 00:54:28,600
Speaker 2: So one last piece of advice, Adam, and that's about

959
00:54:28,640 --> 00:54:32,400
Speaker 2: your dating life. As we said, you need to restore

960
00:54:32,800 --> 00:54:36,359
Speaker 2: a sense of trust with yourself and restore that sense

961
00:54:36,360 --> 00:54:40,040
Speaker 2: of honesty with yourself, so you really listen to how

962
00:54:40,080 --> 00:54:44,240
Speaker 2: you feel and you don't marginalize it and push it aside.

963
00:54:44,280 --> 00:54:47,000
Speaker 2: And to that end, would like you to do two things.

964
00:54:47,400 --> 00:54:51,000
Speaker 2: Number one, we'd like you to write a pact with

965
00:54:51,080 --> 00:54:55,360
Speaker 2: yourself that you'll stick to from here on, with items

966
00:54:55,480 --> 00:55:00,120
Speaker 2: such as, since honesty is really important for me, I

967
00:55:00,120 --> 00:55:03,280
Speaker 2: will let that person know whoever the next potential boyfriend

968
00:55:03,360 --> 00:55:07,120
Speaker 2: is that it is important to me if I catch

969
00:55:07,120 --> 00:55:09,239
Speaker 2: them lying, I will let them know that that's not

970
00:55:09,280 --> 00:55:12,240
Speaker 2: something I can tolerate, such that if it happens again,

971
00:55:12,840 --> 00:55:15,520
Speaker 2: I will be out because I can't be in a

972
00:55:15,560 --> 00:55:18,480
Speaker 2: relationship where I'm worrying all the time that the person's

973
00:55:18,560 --> 00:55:22,520
Speaker 2: not being honest with me. But the pact is one strike,

974
00:55:23,000 --> 00:55:28,640
Speaker 2: and one strike too, they're out. And other items that

975
00:55:28,719 --> 00:55:30,960
Speaker 2: you want to put there that you know that you've

976
00:55:31,000 --> 00:55:33,000
Speaker 2: not done a good enough job in the past of

977
00:55:33,360 --> 00:55:36,719
Speaker 2: sticking to what's true for you and what's important for you.

978
00:55:37,400 --> 00:55:40,280
Speaker 2: It'll be easy for you to stick to a written

979
00:55:40,360 --> 00:55:42,880
Speaker 2: pact that you should have in your pocket when you

980
00:55:42,920 --> 00:55:46,520
Speaker 2: go on dates, just to remind you that this is

981
00:55:46,520 --> 00:55:50,160
Speaker 2: something that you've promised yourself. And then this week you're

982
00:55:50,200 --> 00:55:52,839
Speaker 2: on the apps, you've been chatting. We would like you

983
00:55:52,960 --> 00:55:56,719
Speaker 2: to set up one date, and what we want you

984
00:55:56,760 --> 00:56:00,640
Speaker 2: to note on that date is how it feels going

985
00:56:00,680 --> 00:56:03,840
Speaker 2: in there with this new determination, this pact in your pocket,

986
00:56:04,360 --> 00:56:07,040
Speaker 2: that you are going to be operating very very differently,

987
00:56:07,520 --> 00:56:09,839
Speaker 2: and that you're going to stay really close to your

988
00:56:10,000 --> 00:56:13,640
Speaker 2: truth because your truth is I don't abide the lying

989
00:56:13,719 --> 00:56:16,120
Speaker 2: and the cheating. I can't be in a relationship where

990
00:56:16,120 --> 00:56:18,560
Speaker 2: I'm anxious all the time because the person isn't honest.

991
00:56:18,840 --> 00:56:21,239
Speaker 2: I've tasted what it's like to be with somebody I

992
00:56:21,280 --> 00:56:24,319
Speaker 2: can trust. That's what I'm looking for. And with that

993
00:56:24,480 --> 00:56:27,640
Speaker 2: new idea in mind, would like you to know what

994
00:56:27,680 --> 00:56:29,839
Speaker 2: your experience of that first date is.

995
00:56:30,840 --> 00:56:34,480
Speaker 4: So this is a contract between you and you, not

996
00:56:34,600 --> 00:56:37,920
Speaker 4: between you and the other person. It's between you and you.

997
00:56:37,920 --> 00:56:40,680
Speaker 4: You can't control whether other people are going to betray you,

998
00:56:41,120 --> 00:56:44,480
Speaker 4: but if you stop betraying yourself, we think you're going

999
00:56:44,520 --> 00:56:46,880
Speaker 4: to pick better partners as a result of that.

1000
00:56:47,960 --> 00:56:50,640
Speaker 3: Yeah. Now, I like that idea of making a pact

1001
00:56:50,640 --> 00:56:52,120
Speaker 3: of myself and writing it out.

1002
00:56:52,440 --> 00:56:55,200
Speaker 2: I thought. And once you do that, you'll know one thing.

1003
00:56:55,920 --> 00:56:57,799
Speaker 2: Somebody is going to lie to me. I'll only do

1004
00:56:57,880 --> 00:57:00,799
Speaker 2: it once. Somebody's going to cheat. We'll only do it

1005
00:57:00,840 --> 00:57:03,439
Speaker 2: once because I won't be there for the second time.

1006
00:57:05,239 --> 00:57:09,239
Speaker 2: So that makes it feel much safer. Yeah, because it

1007
00:57:09,280 --> 00:57:10,880
Speaker 2: can't keep happening, you won't let it.

1008
00:57:11,520 --> 00:57:13,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's an interesting way. I've never thought of it

1009
00:57:13,600 --> 00:57:15,759
Speaker 3: like that. It can't happen more than once. If I

1010
00:57:15,840 --> 00:57:20,120
Speaker 3: said this, this boundary or this pact. Yeah, no, I

1011
00:57:20,160 --> 00:57:23,360
Speaker 3: like that idea. Thank you. I'm nervous but excited at

1012
00:57:23,360 --> 00:57:25,800
Speaker 3: the same time that thank you for your advice. I

1013
00:57:25,800 --> 00:57:26,480
Speaker 3: appreciate it.

1014
00:57:26,960 --> 00:57:27,520
Speaker 2: You're welcome.

1015
00:57:34,680 --> 00:57:38,320
Speaker 4: You know, often as therapists, we hear something in a

1016
00:57:38,360 --> 00:57:41,720
Speaker 4: first session that becomes sort of the touchstone of what

1017
00:57:41,960 --> 00:57:45,880
Speaker 4: keeps getting that person stuck. And what stands out to

1018
00:57:45,920 --> 00:57:49,600
Speaker 4: me was when he was talking about sitting at his

1019
00:57:49,680 --> 00:57:52,880
Speaker 4: mother's deathbed and her saying to the children, please don't

1020
00:57:52,880 --> 00:57:56,280
Speaker 4: be upset. And as a parent myself, I understand so

1021
00:57:56,400 --> 00:57:58,640
Speaker 4: much of the pain his mother must have been in

1022
00:57:58,720 --> 00:58:01,320
Speaker 4: and not wanting the kids to feel that. But the

1023
00:58:01,400 --> 00:58:06,120
Speaker 4: message and the legacy of that moment was don't be

1024
00:58:06,200 --> 00:58:09,440
Speaker 4: a burden, don't be upset. You're feeling these huge feelings,

1025
00:58:09,520 --> 00:58:13,680
Speaker 4: but it's not okay to feel that, And that has

1026
00:58:13,880 --> 00:58:17,080
Speaker 4: been the narrative in the family even after the mother died,

1027
00:58:17,280 --> 00:58:21,080
Speaker 4: where they just did not talk about the immense pain

1028
00:58:21,600 --> 00:58:24,439
Speaker 4: that they were all feeling in different ways. When there's

1029
00:58:24,480 --> 00:58:27,560
Speaker 4: a death in a family, everybody in the family experiences

1030
00:58:27,600 --> 00:58:30,400
Speaker 4: it in a different way from their own perspectives and

1031
00:58:30,440 --> 00:58:34,160
Speaker 4: their own pain, and nobody felt that it was okay

1032
00:58:34,840 --> 00:58:37,720
Speaker 4: to talk about it, and that is what he has

1033
00:58:37,760 --> 00:58:41,040
Speaker 4: inherited in terms of his adult relationships.

1034
00:58:41,400 --> 00:58:44,120
Speaker 2: You're absolutely right. And the other snapshot that I have

1035
00:58:44,560 --> 00:58:47,640
Speaker 2: is that scene after she dies, with all four of

1036
00:58:47,680 --> 00:58:52,000
Speaker 2: them sitting in a room, each crying alone. Is the

1037
00:58:52,080 --> 00:58:54,680
Speaker 2: other kind of set up there in that family. Of

1038
00:58:54,720 --> 00:58:56,919
Speaker 2: what other feelings you have, it's not only we don't

1039
00:58:56,920 --> 00:59:00,640
Speaker 2: talk about them, cry alone, but I'm hotened because he

1040
00:59:01,240 --> 00:59:05,200
Speaker 2: did seem quite interested in breaking some of these molds

1041
00:59:05,240 --> 00:59:07,600
Speaker 2: and having some of these conversations or trying to at

1042
00:59:07,640 --> 00:59:09,480
Speaker 2: least be beyond, and he will see what happens with

1043
00:59:09,520 --> 00:59:14,160
Speaker 2: the family. It feels risky and dangerous to share these

1044
00:59:14,200 --> 00:59:20,320
Speaker 2: feelings when you were so early on taught not to right.

1045
00:59:20,400 --> 00:59:23,960
Speaker 4: Not only to not share them, but he came to

1046
00:59:24,000 --> 00:59:26,760
Speaker 4: a place where he doesn't even trust that like when

1047
00:59:26,800 --> 00:59:31,160
Speaker 4: his mom, should I feel upset with his boyfriends? Should

1048
00:59:31,200 --> 00:59:33,720
Speaker 4: I be upset about this little thing? Like he didn't

1049
00:59:33,760 --> 00:59:37,240
Speaker 4: tell me where he was, and it takes going on

1050
00:59:37,280 --> 00:59:40,280
Speaker 4: holiday with other men for it to become something that

1051
00:59:40,840 --> 00:59:44,480
Speaker 4: he can acknowledge is maybe not okay. It's not only

1052
00:59:44,520 --> 00:59:46,240
Speaker 4: not being able to feel the feelings, but not being

1053
00:59:46,280 --> 00:59:49,440
Speaker 4: able to trust that the feelings you're feeling are valid.

1054
00:59:50,200 --> 00:59:52,240
Speaker 4: One thing I was so moved by was that he

1055
00:59:52,280 --> 00:59:54,560
Speaker 4: said he had never really talked about any of this

1056
00:59:55,160 --> 01:00:00,800
Speaker 4: with other people, and he was so open and willing

1057
01:00:01,480 --> 01:00:04,160
Speaker 4: to share this with us, and I felt so honored

1058
01:00:04,480 --> 01:00:07,360
Speaker 4: by this experience. I think we always feel honored that

1059
01:00:07,400 --> 01:00:09,520
Speaker 4: people share their lives with us, but this one in

1060
01:00:09,560 --> 01:00:11,240
Speaker 4: particular really really moved me.

1061
01:00:17,080 --> 01:00:20,240
Speaker 2: You're listening to deer therapists. We'll be back after a

1062
01:00:20,280 --> 01:00:34,480
Speaker 2: short break. So we heard from Adam and we gave

1063
01:00:34,520 --> 01:00:36,439
Speaker 2: him a lot to do. Let's see how that went.

1064
01:00:37,120 --> 01:00:40,560
Speaker 3: Hi guy, Hi Laurie. So it's been a week and

1065
01:00:40,760 --> 01:00:43,640
Speaker 3: I wanted to let you know what's happened since you

1066
01:00:43,720 --> 01:00:47,640
Speaker 3: gave me your advice. The first piece was to reach

1067
01:00:47,680 --> 01:00:50,520
Speaker 3: out to my family and to tell them I'd like

1068
01:00:50,600 --> 01:00:54,640
Speaker 3: to do a call on my mom's death anniversary. I

1069
01:00:54,680 --> 01:00:57,320
Speaker 3: actually changed it a little bit to my mom's birthday

1070
01:00:57,360 --> 01:01:01,880
Speaker 3: because that's just coming up much sooner. My family were

1071
01:01:01,960 --> 01:01:06,320
Speaker 3: a little slow to respond, but everybody did eventually reply,

1072
01:01:06,880 --> 01:01:09,160
Speaker 3: and they all said how much they loved the idea

1073
01:01:09,800 --> 01:01:12,320
Speaker 3: of taking some time to talk about memories that we

1074
01:01:12,400 --> 01:01:14,800
Speaker 3: have with my mom and share some stories. So that

1075
01:01:14,920 --> 01:01:18,680
Speaker 3: was really great. Secondly, I got in touch with my aunt.

1076
01:01:19,560 --> 01:01:22,160
Speaker 3: I explained to her that I wanted to try to

1077
01:01:22,200 --> 01:01:25,080
Speaker 3: connect more with the family on the topic of my mom,

1078
01:01:25,520 --> 01:01:28,920
Speaker 3: and she was really supportive of that. It does still

1079
01:01:28,960 --> 01:01:33,720
Speaker 3: feel a little uncomfortable to have these discussions, but I think,

1080
01:01:33,800 --> 01:01:36,120
Speaker 3: as with anything, the more I do it, then the

1081
01:01:36,120 --> 01:01:38,880
Speaker 3: more I'll get better at it. I think at first

1082
01:01:38,880 --> 01:01:41,600
Speaker 3: it will probably be me trying to connect us all

1083
01:01:41,640 --> 01:01:44,680
Speaker 3: in this way, but I've realized in essence, I feel

1084
01:01:44,720 --> 01:01:46,880
Speaker 3: like this is a kind of way to keep my

1085
01:01:46,960 --> 01:01:51,080
Speaker 3: mom alive by sharing our memories and our stories about her.

1086
01:01:51,640 --> 01:01:54,680
Speaker 3: Even though that she's gone, having that closeness to her

1087
01:01:54,800 --> 01:01:57,840
Speaker 3: is still very important to me, so thank you for that.

1088
01:02:00,040 --> 01:02:02,800
Speaker 3: My next assignment was to write a pact with myself,

1089
01:02:03,560 --> 01:02:06,240
Speaker 3: and this was really interesting because I actually had to

1090
01:02:06,280 --> 01:02:09,280
Speaker 3: stop and consider what it is that I do and

1091
01:02:09,400 --> 01:02:13,680
Speaker 3: don't want from a relationship, and writing it down made

1092
01:02:13,680 --> 01:02:16,560
Speaker 3: it feel much more tangible rather than just some vague

1093
01:02:16,560 --> 01:02:19,960
Speaker 3: ideas floating around in my head. It gave me some

1094
01:02:20,040 --> 01:02:22,800
Speaker 3: confidence knowing that I can rely on this pack to

1095
01:02:22,840 --> 01:02:25,000
Speaker 3: come back to whenever I feel like something might be

1096
01:02:25,040 --> 01:02:29,439
Speaker 3: going wrong, and hearing you both talk about me being

1097
01:02:29,480 --> 01:02:33,320
Speaker 3: honest with myself. Also made me realize that I need

1098
01:02:33,360 --> 01:02:36,520
Speaker 3: to treat this promise to myself in the same way

1099
01:02:36,560 --> 01:02:38,919
Speaker 3: that I would treat a promise to a friend too.

1100
01:02:40,800 --> 01:02:43,880
Speaker 3: And finally, you told me to go on a date,

1101
01:02:44,640 --> 01:02:47,400
Speaker 3: and I have to be honest, I was really finding

1102
01:02:47,440 --> 01:02:50,360
Speaker 3: any excuse not to do this, but I did, in

1103
01:02:50,400 --> 01:02:53,600
Speaker 3: fact go on a date and it was really nice.

1104
01:02:54,200 --> 01:02:57,600
Speaker 3: And also, having made that pack with myself, I felt

1105
01:02:57,680 --> 01:03:01,000
Speaker 3: like I was going into it much better in the

1106
01:03:01,040 --> 01:03:04,360
Speaker 3: case of red flag starting to pop up. So it's

1107
01:03:04,400 --> 01:03:07,760
Speaker 3: still a work in progress, but I feel like I'm

1108
01:03:07,800 --> 01:03:11,720
Speaker 3: pointing in the right direction. So thank you both so

1109
01:03:11,840 --> 01:03:14,320
Speaker 3: much for listening to me. I really appreciate all of

1110
01:03:14,360 --> 01:03:17,520
Speaker 3: your insights and all of your advice as well. Thank you.

1111
01:03:22,760 --> 01:03:25,040
Speaker 1: Well. I am so pleased for Adam, and I think

1112
01:03:25,320 --> 01:03:27,160
Speaker 1: one of the things that came out of this was

1113
01:03:27,200 --> 01:03:31,400
Speaker 1: being able to connect some of these earlier experiences of

1114
01:03:31,520 --> 01:03:36,400
Speaker 1: loss with what was happening in his relationships now and

1115
01:03:36,440 --> 01:03:40,640
Speaker 1: the earlier experience of not talking about things and how

1116
01:03:40,720 --> 01:03:44,600
Speaker 1: that translated to what he was doing in his relationships

1117
01:03:44,640 --> 01:03:46,760
Speaker 1: now and not being able to trust himself if something

1118
01:03:46,800 --> 01:03:47,440
Speaker 1: felt off.

1119
01:03:48,960 --> 01:03:52,200
Speaker 2: I agree because I think the theme with Adam was avoidance.

1120
01:03:52,320 --> 01:03:56,640
Speaker 2: It was avoidance talking about his mum. It was avoidance dating.

1121
01:03:57,080 --> 01:04:00,840
Speaker 2: And I think that the push we gave him really

1122
01:04:00,880 --> 01:04:03,800
Speaker 2: work because he sounds less avoidant, even though he said

1123
01:04:03,840 --> 01:04:05,720
Speaker 2: he did try to avoid having the date, but he

1124
01:04:05,760 --> 01:04:10,080
Speaker 2: had a good experience. He sounds like he opened up

1125
01:04:10,120 --> 01:04:13,919
Speaker 2: a conduit in his family to talk about his mom

1126
01:04:13,920 --> 01:04:18,680
Speaker 2: again that I think everyone will end up benefiting from eventually.

1127
01:04:18,960 --> 01:04:21,080
Speaker 1: And I think the beauty of what he did was

1128
01:04:21,280 --> 01:04:25,080
Speaker 1: seeing that people are really receptive. That he didn't know

1129
01:04:25,160 --> 01:04:27,360
Speaker 1: how they were going to reply, and we always said

1130
01:04:27,400 --> 01:04:30,000
Speaker 1: to him, it doesn't matter how they respond. What matters

1131
01:04:30,040 --> 01:04:32,720
Speaker 1: is that you do it. But then as a bonus

1132
01:04:32,800 --> 01:04:36,320
Speaker 1: to see and they were very receptive. And sometimes it

1133
01:04:36,360 --> 01:04:39,560
Speaker 1: takes one person in the family to be that person

1134
01:04:39,960 --> 01:04:43,400
Speaker 1: to start having conversations in a way that the rest

1135
01:04:43,400 --> 01:04:46,200
Speaker 1: of the family wasn't able to do. And I think

1136
01:04:46,200 --> 01:04:48,600
Speaker 1: the takeaway here that I think many people can relate

1137
01:04:48,640 --> 01:04:53,560
Speaker 1: to is that when you avoid things, it creates so

1138
01:04:53,720 --> 01:04:57,240
Speaker 1: many problems. He wasn't just avoiding things with his family

1139
01:04:57,240 --> 01:05:00,200
Speaker 1: members and with the people that he was in relationships with.

1140
01:05:00,880 --> 01:05:05,040
Speaker 1: He was avoiding facing these things himself. And when we

1141
01:05:05,160 --> 01:05:10,040
Speaker 1: stop avoiding things with ourselves. This whole new world opens

1142
01:05:10,120 --> 01:05:16,200
Speaker 1: up next week. A couple struggles with a toxic ex

1143
01:05:16,240 --> 01:05:19,560
Speaker 1: spouse who's not happy about their upcoming marriage.

1144
01:05:19,600 --> 01:05:23,600
Speaker 5: My ex wife is not happy about the fact that

1145
01:05:23,720 --> 01:05:27,800
Speaker 5: I am engaged to anyone, and she's not happy that

1146
01:05:27,840 --> 01:05:30,320
Speaker 5: I'm engaged in particular to Lily.

1147
01:05:30,680 --> 01:05:33,760
Speaker 1: If you're enjoying our podcast, don't forget to subscribe for

1148
01:05:33,840 --> 01:05:36,720
Speaker 1: free so that you don't miss any episodes, and please

1149
01:05:36,760 --> 01:05:39,520
Speaker 1: help support Dear Therapists by telling your friends about it

1150
01:05:39,640 --> 01:05:42,960
Speaker 1: and leaving a review on Apple Podcasts. Your reviews really

1151
01:05:42,960 --> 01:05:44,200
Speaker 1: help people to find the show.

1152
01:05:44,800 --> 01:05:47,000
Speaker 2: If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us,

1153
01:05:47,320 --> 01:05:52,040
Speaker 2: email us at Laurie and Guy at iHeartMedia dot com.

1154
01:05:52,480 --> 01:05:56,760
Speaker 2: Our executive producer is Noel Brown. We're produced and edited

1155
01:05:56,800 --> 01:06:01,480
Speaker 2: by Josh Fisher. Additional editing support by Elena Rosen, John

1156
01:06:01,600 --> 01:06:06,520
Speaker 2: Washington and Zachary Fisher. Our interns are Ben Bernstein, Emily

1157
01:06:06,560 --> 01:06:10,880
Speaker 2: Gutierrez and Silver Lifton and special thanks to our podcast

1158
01:06:10,920 --> 01:06:14,240
Speaker 2: fairy Godmother Katie Curic. We can't wait to see you

1159
01:06:14,280 --> 01:06:18,680
Speaker 2: at our next session. Deotherapist is a production of iHeartRadio,

1160
01:06:23,600 --> 01:06:24,280
Speaker 2: Fisher Food