1 00:01:09,359 --> 00:01:12,439 Speaker 1: Hey to your Therapist listeners. It's Lori and Guy and 2 00:01:12,479 --> 00:01:13,599 Speaker 1: we have a quick update. 3 00:01:13,839 --> 00:01:16,039 Speaker 2: Many of you have told us that you get something 4 00:01:16,079 --> 00:01:18,439 Speaker 2: new out of each episode when you listen to it 5 00:01:18,479 --> 00:01:21,719 Speaker 2: again the second or third time. In fact, when we 6 00:01:21,839 --> 00:01:24,799 Speaker 2: listen to the episodes again, we also get takeaways we 7 00:01:24,799 --> 00:01:25,439 Speaker 2: didn't remember. 8 00:01:25,439 --> 00:01:28,079 Speaker 1: We're They're therapy is like that too. There are so 9 00:01:28,199 --> 00:01:30,839 Speaker 1: many learning moments in a session, and it's difficult to 10 00:01:30,919 --> 00:01:33,439 Speaker 1: absorb them all at once. So while we're not taping 11 00:01:33,559 --> 00:01:37,039 Speaker 1: new episodes right now, we are offering you our most 12 00:01:37,079 --> 00:01:40,399 Speaker 1: popular sessions as encores so that you can continue to 13 00:01:40,439 --> 00:01:41,519 Speaker 1: gain value from them. 14 00:01:41,759 --> 00:01:45,319 Speaker 2: We love doing the Therapists episodes, but we're each busy 15 00:01:45,359 --> 00:01:48,199 Speaker 2: with new and exciting projects that we hope you will 16 00:01:48,199 --> 00:01:49,239 Speaker 2: love just as much. 17 00:01:49,479 --> 00:01:52,679 Speaker 1: I have a new advice podcast called Since You Asked, 18 00:01:52,799 --> 00:01:55,159 Speaker 1: which you can get wherever you listen to podcasts. 19 00:01:55,359 --> 00:01:58,159 Speaker 2: And I have a new book coming out. It's called 20 00:01:58,559 --> 00:02:03,559 Speaker 2: Mind Overgrind, How to Break Free when work Hijacks your life, 21 00:02:03,759 --> 00:02:06,519 Speaker 2: and it will be published by Simon and Schuster. You 22 00:02:06,559 --> 00:02:08,759 Speaker 2: can find out more about it on my website. 23 00:02:10,319 --> 00:02:13,519 Speaker 1: You can learn more about these on our socials. And meanwhile, 24 00:02:13,719 --> 00:02:16,639 Speaker 1: we hope you find these Dear Therapist sessions as valuable 25 00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:22,999 Speaker 1: as we have making them for you. I'm Laur Gottlieb. 26 00:02:23,399 --> 00:02:25,519 Speaker 1: I'm the author of Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, 27 00:02:25,839 --> 00:02:28,679 Speaker 1: and I write the Dear Therapist advice column for The Atlantic. 28 00:02:29,119 --> 00:02:32,319 Speaker 2: And I'm Guy Winch. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid, 29 00:02:32,639 --> 00:02:34,839 Speaker 2: and I write the Dear Guy advice column for Ted. 30 00:02:35,199 --> 00:02:36,999 Speaker 2: And this is Dear Therapists. 31 00:02:37,559 --> 00:02:40,039 Speaker 1: Each week we invite you into a real session where 32 00:02:40,039 --> 00:02:42,799 Speaker 1: we help people confront their biggest problems and then give 33 00:02:42,799 --> 00:02:45,679 Speaker 1: them actionable advice and hear about the changes they've made 34 00:02:45,679 --> 00:02:46,359 Speaker 1: in their lives. 35 00:02:46,719 --> 00:02:49,359 Speaker 2: So sit back and welcome to today's session. 36 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:54,199 Speaker 1: This week, a man with unprocessed grief from his childhood 37 00:02:54,359 --> 00:02:58,359 Speaker 1: struggles to trust himself and to set boundaries in his relationships. 38 00:02:58,799 --> 00:03:01,119 Speaker 3: I was kind of head over heels for him at 39 00:03:01,119 --> 00:03:03,719 Speaker 3: the beginning. There were a few red flags where I 40 00:03:03,799 --> 00:03:06,839 Speaker 3: started to be a little bit concerned. I did kind 41 00:03:06,879 --> 00:03:12,519 Speaker 3: of do mental gymnastics, trying to just defy his lies first. 42 00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:16,879 Speaker 2: A quick note deotherapists is for informational purposes only, does 43 00:03:16,919 --> 00:03:20,039 Speaker 2: not constitute medical or psychological advice, and is not a 44 00:03:20,079 --> 00:03:24,559 Speaker 2: substitute for professional health care advice. Diagnosis or treatment. Always 45 00:03:24,599 --> 00:03:27,639 Speaker 2: seek the advice of your physician, mental health professional, or 46 00:03:27,679 --> 00:03:30,679 Speaker 2: other qualified health provider with any questions you may have 47 00:03:30,799 --> 00:03:34,639 Speaker 2: regarding a medical or psychological condition. By submitting a letter, 48 00:03:34,679 --> 00:03:36,799 Speaker 2: you are agreeing to let iHeart Media use it in 49 00:03:36,839 --> 00:03:39,119 Speaker 2: part or in full, and we may edit it for 50 00:03:39,199 --> 00:03:41,839 Speaker 2: length and clarity. In the sessions you'll hear. All names 51 00:03:41,879 --> 00:03:44,639 Speaker 2: have been changed for the privacy of our guests. 52 00:03:46,039 --> 00:03:47,559 Speaker 3: Hey Laurie, Hey guy. 53 00:03:48,079 --> 00:03:49,359 Speaker 1: So what do we have today? 54 00:03:49,679 --> 00:03:53,439 Speaker 2: So today we have a letter about relationships. So here's 55 00:03:53,479 --> 00:03:57,039 Speaker 2: the letter deotherapists. My mom passed away when I was 56 00:03:57,159 --> 00:04:00,239 Speaker 2: nine years old. Even though I was very young, I 57 00:04:00,359 --> 00:04:02,879 Speaker 2: was incredibly close to her and felt like I had 58 00:04:02,879 --> 00:04:06,199 Speaker 2: a deep and special connection with her. My family and 59 00:04:06,239 --> 00:04:08,599 Speaker 2: I were with her when she died at home, and 60 00:04:08,639 --> 00:04:12,039 Speaker 2: this moment has always stuck with me. I've never been 61 00:04:12,039 --> 00:04:15,119 Speaker 2: able to share this experience with anybody, despite it being 62 00:04:15,159 --> 00:04:17,839 Speaker 2: the most painful thing I've gone through, and it's still 63 00:04:17,879 --> 00:04:21,559 Speaker 2: something I think about very often. I'm fortunate to have 64 00:04:21,599 --> 00:04:24,679 Speaker 2: a loving family. However, we never really talked about my 65 00:04:24,799 --> 00:04:27,679 Speaker 2: mum's death or the impact it had on us, and 66 00:04:27,719 --> 00:04:30,319 Speaker 2: I feel that this has created an enormous amount of 67 00:04:30,319 --> 00:04:33,479 Speaker 2: distance between us all. My relationship with my father is 68 00:04:33,559 --> 00:04:37,279 Speaker 2: particularly distant, and his lack of communication throughout my life 69 00:04:37,519 --> 00:04:41,039 Speaker 2: has often left me feeling very alone. We have also 70 00:04:41,159 --> 00:04:44,439 Speaker 2: had some big clashes in the past, including one very 71 00:04:44,479 --> 00:04:47,919 Speaker 2: painful argument regarding my mom's wedding ring and who she 72 00:04:47,999 --> 00:04:51,199 Speaker 2: left it for after she passed away. On top of this, 73 00:04:51,599 --> 00:04:55,239 Speaker 2: I've struggled to have a healthy romantic relationship. Almost all 74 00:04:55,279 --> 00:04:58,079 Speaker 2: of the people I've had a relationship with have cheated 75 00:04:58,119 --> 00:05:01,319 Speaker 2: on me or lied, and I've often accepted behavior which, 76 00:05:01,439 --> 00:05:05,559 Speaker 2: upon reflection, was totally unacceptable. I know that I have 77 00:05:05,639 --> 00:05:08,759 Speaker 2: some attachment issues after my mom passed away, and I 78 00:05:08,759 --> 00:05:11,119 Speaker 2: have been trying hard to work through that, but I 79 00:05:11,159 --> 00:05:12,759 Speaker 2: feel a bit lost as to what I need to 80 00:05:12,799 --> 00:05:15,679 Speaker 2: do to try and build healthy relationships with a romantic 81 00:05:15,719 --> 00:05:19,159 Speaker 2: partner and also my family. I would love to hear 82 00:05:19,199 --> 00:05:22,079 Speaker 2: any advice you may have. Adam Well. 83 00:05:22,119 --> 00:05:26,359 Speaker 4: I think it's great that Adam is writing to us 84 00:05:26,519 --> 00:05:30,919 Speaker 4: and realizes that there might be some connection between the 85 00:05:31,279 --> 00:05:36,319 Speaker 4: unprocessed grief with his mom and what he's struggling with 86 00:05:36,359 --> 00:05:37,879 Speaker 4: in his romantic relationships. 87 00:05:38,439 --> 00:05:41,039 Speaker 2: I agree, and I think it's interesting that he's been 88 00:05:41,119 --> 00:05:44,079 Speaker 2: unable to talk about the death with anyone, not just 89 00:05:44,199 --> 00:05:46,959 Speaker 2: with his family who are reluctant to talk about it. 90 00:05:47,399 --> 00:05:49,719 Speaker 2: But he's not found anyone in his life, not a friend, 91 00:05:49,839 --> 00:05:52,519 Speaker 2: not a lover that he felt comfortable discussing it with. 92 00:05:52,599 --> 00:05:55,279 Speaker 2: And that's something I'm curious about. So there's a lot 93 00:05:55,319 --> 00:05:57,239 Speaker 2: we need to find out here. Let's go and talk 94 00:05:57,279 --> 00:05:59,959 Speaker 2: to him. 95 00:06:00,079 --> 00:06:03,199 Speaker 1: You're listening to Dear Therapists for my Heart Radio. We'll 96 00:06:03,199 --> 00:06:13,199 Speaker 1: be back after a short break. I'm Lori Gottlieb. 97 00:06:12,999 --> 00:06:15,879 Speaker 2: And I'm Guy Wench and this is Deo Therapist. 98 00:06:18,199 --> 00:06:21,599 Speaker 3: So Hi Adam, Hi Laurie, Hi Guy. Thank you for 99 00:06:21,639 --> 00:06:23,199 Speaker 3: having me. I really appreciate it. 100 00:06:23,639 --> 00:06:26,079 Speaker 2: You're very welcome, and thank you for coming on the show. 101 00:06:26,519 --> 00:06:28,959 Speaker 2: Tell us a little bit about yourself, just about your 102 00:06:28,999 --> 00:06:31,639 Speaker 2: current life. How old you are so we have a 103 00:06:31,679 --> 00:06:32,639 Speaker 2: general picture of you. 104 00:06:33,319 --> 00:06:38,719 Speaker 3: Okay, So I'm thirty one, I'm single, I live alone. 105 00:06:39,039 --> 00:06:43,639 Speaker 3: I now live abroad, originally from the UK, but I 106 00:06:43,759 --> 00:06:46,319 Speaker 3: moved away from home when I was about eighteen, so 107 00:06:46,439 --> 00:06:50,279 Speaker 3: quite young. I went back to study, but as soon 108 00:06:50,319 --> 00:06:54,319 Speaker 3: as I could, I left the country and moved abroad. 109 00:06:54,879 --> 00:06:58,879 Speaker 4: Tell us a little bit about your relationships that you 110 00:06:58,919 --> 00:07:01,719 Speaker 4: wrote to us about. When was the last time you 111 00:07:01,759 --> 00:07:04,199 Speaker 4: were in a relationship, how long do they tend to 112 00:07:04,279 --> 00:07:05,879 Speaker 4: last and what has happened? 113 00:07:06,799 --> 00:07:11,479 Speaker 3: Sure, so my last relationship ended about two years ago, 114 00:07:12,439 --> 00:07:15,719 Speaker 3: and I was in that relationship for about two years. 115 00:07:16,239 --> 00:07:20,479 Speaker 3: It started fairly quickly. I think it was within four 116 00:07:20,519 --> 00:07:25,399 Speaker 3: weeks we decided that we would be boyfriends together. I 117 00:07:25,639 --> 00:07:29,479 Speaker 3: was kind of head over heels for him, but at 118 00:07:29,479 --> 00:07:32,039 Speaker 3: the beginning there were a few red flags where I 119 00:07:32,199 --> 00:07:34,919 Speaker 3: started to be a little bit concerned. But because of 120 00:07:34,959 --> 00:07:39,599 Speaker 3: my previous relationships where I've been cheated on before, I 121 00:07:39,719 --> 00:07:42,399 Speaker 3: decided to just start afresh. It wasn't fair for him 122 00:07:42,439 --> 00:07:45,599 Speaker 3: to be under that same bracket, as I thought, you know, 123 00:07:45,599 --> 00:07:47,759 Speaker 3: it's a new relationship, it's a new guy, so it's 124 00:07:47,999 --> 00:07:51,039 Speaker 3: only fair to give him a fresh start. 125 00:07:50,759 --> 00:07:52,839 Speaker 2: To What were the red flags? 126 00:07:53,119 --> 00:07:56,639 Speaker 3: Yeah, so it was there were several things. I mean, 127 00:07:56,919 --> 00:08:00,519 Speaker 3: I think at the beginning of the relationship, I mean, 128 00:08:00,559 --> 00:08:03,839 Speaker 3: I had made very clear that I wanted this to 129 00:08:03,839 --> 00:08:06,399 Speaker 3: be a very honest relationship. So I think up front 130 00:08:07,319 --> 00:08:10,879 Speaker 3: I said about how important honesty was to me. Then 131 00:08:10,959 --> 00:08:13,799 Speaker 3: I noticed some little lies coming through here and there, 132 00:08:13,879 --> 00:08:17,159 Speaker 3: nothing too big, just things like him lying about where 133 00:08:17,199 --> 00:08:20,159 Speaker 3: he was and what he was doing. Later, on, I 134 00:08:20,199 --> 00:08:23,959 Speaker 3: found out that he was taking a holiday and he 135 00:08:24,079 --> 00:08:27,319 Speaker 3: was going on holiday with a guy. At first, I 136 00:08:27,359 --> 00:08:29,719 Speaker 3: was a little bit funny about it, but I thought, 137 00:08:29,839 --> 00:08:31,839 Speaker 3: you know, it's that they could just be friends, so 138 00:08:31,879 --> 00:08:35,519 Speaker 3: that's fine. But as time went on, you know, I 139 00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:37,679 Speaker 3: was never allowed to know who this person was. I 140 00:08:37,719 --> 00:08:40,719 Speaker 3: was never now to meet them, So that was one 141 00:08:40,799 --> 00:08:44,319 Speaker 3: big red flag that I had, But I just kind 142 00:08:44,319 --> 00:08:48,159 Speaker 3: of brushed it aside, thinking that, you know, it was 143 00:08:48,319 --> 00:08:50,719 Speaker 3: probably just in my head and I needed to relax 144 00:08:50,759 --> 00:08:51,279 Speaker 3: a little bit. 145 00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:54,799 Speaker 4: What strikes me is that you said there were some 146 00:08:54,839 --> 00:08:57,639 Speaker 4: red flags, nothing too big, Just like he lied about 147 00:08:57,759 --> 00:08:59,719 Speaker 4: where he was and who he was with. 148 00:08:59,999 --> 00:09:01,439 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's not a. 149 00:09:01,359 --> 00:09:06,359 Speaker 4: Little thing in a relationship. So I just wonder how 150 00:09:06,439 --> 00:09:08,679 Speaker 4: you come to think of that as as a little thing. 151 00:09:09,639 --> 00:09:12,239 Speaker 3: I think I'm just putting it into proportion to the 152 00:09:12,319 --> 00:09:15,799 Speaker 3: things that later came. Things started to get really out 153 00:09:15,799 --> 00:09:17,319 Speaker 3: of hand in terms of his lying. 154 00:09:17,919 --> 00:09:21,319 Speaker 2: Did it bother you? You're just starting this relationship and 155 00:09:21,359 --> 00:09:23,519 Speaker 2: he's already lying about where he is, and then he 156 00:09:23,599 --> 00:09:27,479 Speaker 2: actually refuses to give you information about who he's going 157 00:09:27,679 --> 00:09:30,799 Speaker 2: away on holiday with. It's obviously very suspicious that he's 158 00:09:30,839 --> 00:09:33,599 Speaker 2: not willing to tell you there's obviously something he's hiding. 159 00:09:34,759 --> 00:09:36,999 Speaker 2: How are you able to put that aside? What were 160 00:09:37,039 --> 00:09:39,879 Speaker 2: the justifications you gave to yourself about why you can 161 00:09:39,919 --> 00:09:43,239 Speaker 2: maybe put something that significant aside. 162 00:09:44,079 --> 00:09:46,119 Speaker 3: That's a good question, and I'm not sure how I 163 00:09:46,199 --> 00:09:48,959 Speaker 3: did it, but I did kind of do mental gymnastics 164 00:09:49,239 --> 00:09:54,639 Speaker 3: trying to justify his lies. And I think I was 165 00:09:55,679 --> 00:09:59,119 Speaker 3: really just head over heels and really liked him and 166 00:10:00,439 --> 00:10:02,999 Speaker 3: really believed him when he said there wasn't anything to 167 00:10:03,039 --> 00:10:06,279 Speaker 3: worry about. So I did just put my trust in him. 168 00:10:06,319 --> 00:10:08,759 Speaker 3: I tried to ignore the fact that, you know, these 169 00:10:08,799 --> 00:10:10,919 Speaker 3: kinds of things happened to me in the past and 170 00:10:10,999 --> 00:10:14,519 Speaker 3: start afresh. I had also been very clear from the start, 171 00:10:14,639 --> 00:10:18,039 Speaker 3: you know, before we actually agreed to start a relationship together, 172 00:10:18,079 --> 00:10:22,159 Speaker 3: that honesty was going to be the thing that was like, 173 00:10:22,639 --> 00:10:26,759 Speaker 3: couldn't negotiate on, Like I just wanted complete honesty, and 174 00:10:26,839 --> 00:10:28,879 Speaker 3: so I think I took him at his word, even 175 00:10:28,919 --> 00:10:31,039 Speaker 3: though there were these obvious red flags. 176 00:10:31,479 --> 00:10:34,359 Speaker 4: Did you confront him at some point about the fact 177 00:10:34,359 --> 00:10:36,799 Speaker 4: that he was being secretive and that he had lied 178 00:10:36,839 --> 00:10:38,999 Speaker 4: about his whereabouts in the past. 179 00:10:39,839 --> 00:10:44,319 Speaker 3: I did. I did, and it wasn't met very well. 180 00:10:44,719 --> 00:10:46,679 Speaker 3: He turned it around and made it seem like I 181 00:10:46,719 --> 00:10:53,079 Speaker 3: was being very intrusive and overly possessive, which, of course 182 00:10:53,079 --> 00:10:56,239 Speaker 3: when somebody says that to you, you do immediately back off, 183 00:10:56,279 --> 00:10:58,559 Speaker 3: because that's not the kind of boyfriend that I wanted 184 00:10:58,559 --> 00:11:02,759 Speaker 3: to be. When that happened, it really made me think like, oh, okay, 185 00:11:02,839 --> 00:11:05,279 Speaker 3: maybe I am overthinking this too much. It kind of 186 00:11:05,319 --> 00:11:07,919 Speaker 3: made me take a step back and think, just okay, relaxed. 187 00:11:08,039 --> 00:11:09,959 Speaker 2: So how did things progress this guy. 188 00:11:10,399 --> 00:11:14,079 Speaker 3: Well, it wasn't until that holiday that he took where 189 00:11:14,119 --> 00:11:18,119 Speaker 3: things really started to become clear that he was lying 190 00:11:18,159 --> 00:11:23,479 Speaker 3: about lots of things. I found out that he had 191 00:11:23,479 --> 00:11:27,359 Speaker 3: invited several guys to go on that holiday actually, and 192 00:11:27,559 --> 00:11:30,639 Speaker 3: whilst he was there, he was using all these dating apps. 193 00:11:30,719 --> 00:11:33,239 Speaker 3: He later admitted that he did meet people when he 194 00:11:33,319 --> 00:11:37,119 Speaker 3: was away on holiday, and so obviously I was devastated 195 00:11:37,159 --> 00:11:40,079 Speaker 3: by that. When I confronted him about this, well, he 196 00:11:40,199 --> 00:11:44,119 Speaker 3: was still on holiday. He immediately went into like apology 197 00:11:44,159 --> 00:11:46,999 Speaker 3: mode and it was just endless emails and messages and 198 00:11:47,079 --> 00:11:50,519 Speaker 3: I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, which made me think, Okay, 199 00:11:50,599 --> 00:11:54,159 Speaker 3: like he's messed up. He's messed up, and maybe I 200 00:11:54,239 --> 00:11:57,039 Speaker 3: need to rethink about giving him a second chance. 201 00:11:57,799 --> 00:12:00,439 Speaker 4: Have you given people second chances like that in your 202 00:12:00,479 --> 00:12:01,479 Speaker 4: other relationships? 203 00:12:02,559 --> 00:12:06,719 Speaker 3: Yeah? Yeah, I have done several times pretty much for 204 00:12:06,759 --> 00:12:12,199 Speaker 3: the same thing, lying, cheating. It's been pretty much the same, 205 00:12:12,439 --> 00:12:13,719 Speaker 3: the same topics each time. 206 00:12:14,439 --> 00:12:17,159 Speaker 4: And given that the second chances haven't worked out so well, 207 00:12:17,479 --> 00:12:19,999 Speaker 4: what made you think I'm going to give this guy 208 00:12:20,039 --> 00:12:20,799 Speaker 4: a second chance. 209 00:12:21,279 --> 00:12:25,199 Speaker 3: I found it very, very difficult to let go of 210 00:12:25,319 --> 00:12:27,399 Speaker 3: the relationship. Like I said, I was head over heels, 211 00:12:27,439 --> 00:12:32,519 Speaker 3: I was really into him, and I think in my 212 00:12:32,599 --> 00:12:34,879 Speaker 3: mind at that point it seemed just like when I 213 00:12:34,919 --> 00:12:36,999 Speaker 3: was younger as well. I made mistakes, so I thought, 214 00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:41,839 Speaker 3: you know, people do change, People mess up and then 215 00:12:41,839 --> 00:12:43,799 Speaker 3: they learned from it. But he didn't. 216 00:12:44,439 --> 00:12:48,359 Speaker 2: So you know, it's interesting, Adam, because you said you've 217 00:12:48,359 --> 00:12:52,359 Speaker 2: had other relationships where people lied and cheated and asked 218 00:12:52,399 --> 00:12:54,719 Speaker 2: for a second chance, and you gave them the second chance, 219 00:12:54,759 --> 00:12:58,679 Speaker 2: and they continued to lie and cheat. So then you 220 00:12:58,719 --> 00:13:01,959 Speaker 2: do that a second time, and the question is when 221 00:13:01,999 --> 00:13:04,639 Speaker 2: you miss up by giving people second chances after lying 222 00:13:04,679 --> 00:13:07,439 Speaker 2: and cheating repeatedly, do you learn from it? 223 00:13:08,359 --> 00:13:13,519 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's interesting. I've not really thought about it like 224 00:13:13,559 --> 00:13:18,839 Speaker 3: that before. I think more and more i've become very 225 00:13:18,839 --> 00:13:24,399 Speaker 3: intolerant of lying. And I've been trying to notice these 226 00:13:24,399 --> 00:13:27,639 Speaker 3: red flags sooner than I had before and take them 227 00:13:27,639 --> 00:13:31,559 Speaker 3: more seriously. But still I think I had that thing 228 00:13:31,599 --> 00:13:33,399 Speaker 3: in my mind which just kind of talks me out 229 00:13:33,399 --> 00:13:36,879 Speaker 3: a bit and talks me down, and yeah, it's just 230 00:13:36,919 --> 00:13:40,599 Speaker 3: not very helpful for building a healthy relationship. 231 00:13:41,119 --> 00:13:43,239 Speaker 2: Well, I think the thing is that you start the 232 00:13:43,279 --> 00:13:47,359 Speaker 2: relationship with the right statement. And I'm going to elaborate 233 00:13:47,399 --> 00:13:49,559 Speaker 2: a little bit. You've been hurt before and you didn't 234 00:13:49,599 --> 00:13:51,519 Speaker 2: say that part to us, but I'm assuming you've said 235 00:13:51,519 --> 00:13:54,839 Speaker 2: that to them, and therefore honesty is very important to me. 236 00:13:55,079 --> 00:13:58,479 Speaker 2: I have a zero tolerance policy for lying. Then you 237 00:13:58,639 --> 00:14:01,879 Speaker 2: catch him on small lines like where he was, and 238 00:14:01,919 --> 00:14:05,879 Speaker 2: the zero tolerance turns into tolerance, and so the messaging 239 00:14:05,959 --> 00:14:08,919 Speaker 2: to him becomes I have a zero tolerance policy for lying, 240 00:14:08,919 --> 00:14:10,599 Speaker 2: but if I can actually and a lie, I'll forgive you. 241 00:14:11,319 --> 00:14:14,879 Speaker 2: And there's the mixed message that you give him about 242 00:14:15,239 --> 00:14:18,439 Speaker 2: his untruths, and so he knows that you really are 243 00:14:18,479 --> 00:14:21,759 Speaker 2: against it, but you will forgive it. And that's not 244 00:14:21,879 --> 00:14:23,759 Speaker 2: the message you want to send. The message you want 245 00:14:23,799 --> 00:14:26,959 Speaker 2: to send is I'm against it, and you know there 246 00:14:26,999 --> 00:14:31,799 Speaker 2: will be consequences if it continues. But do you see 247 00:14:31,919 --> 00:14:35,359 Speaker 2: that despite your intention, the message you're giving in your 248 00:14:35,359 --> 00:14:38,039 Speaker 2: actions by forgiving, it's confusing. 249 00:14:38,719 --> 00:14:43,079 Speaker 3: No, You're exactly right. It's all kind of empty, empty 250 00:14:43,079 --> 00:14:47,119 Speaker 3: threats or empty promises of you know, if this happened, 251 00:14:47,599 --> 00:14:49,919 Speaker 3: this is how I'm going to walk away, this is 252 00:14:49,919 --> 00:14:52,399 Speaker 3: what's going to happen. But actually, in the end it 253 00:14:53,039 --> 00:14:55,319 Speaker 3: never did. I just kept tolerating it. 254 00:14:55,599 --> 00:14:56,119 Speaker 2: Yeah. 255 00:14:56,399 --> 00:14:59,919 Speaker 4: The other thing I'm thinking about is how it doesn't 256 00:14:59,919 --> 00:15:03,719 Speaker 4: sound like he cared much about how much this hurt you. 257 00:15:05,599 --> 00:15:08,079 Speaker 4: And as guy was saying, you have a history with this, 258 00:15:08,519 --> 00:15:11,319 Speaker 4: he was aware of that, so you would think he 259 00:15:11,319 --> 00:15:16,199 Speaker 4: would be extra sensitive to your needs there. And when 260 00:15:16,199 --> 00:15:19,079 Speaker 4: he did apologize and send that string of apologies because 261 00:15:19,079 --> 00:15:22,879 Speaker 4: he was caught when he was on holiday, it was 262 00:15:22,919 --> 00:15:26,119 Speaker 4: more about he wanted you to forgive him. I didn't 263 00:15:26,119 --> 00:15:29,439 Speaker 4: get the sense that it was about I've really hurt you, 264 00:15:29,559 --> 00:15:32,239 Speaker 4: I've really betrayed your trust. I know this is going 265 00:15:32,279 --> 00:15:35,359 Speaker 4: to be really hard to repair. This must have been 266 00:15:35,399 --> 00:15:36,599 Speaker 4: devastating for you. 267 00:15:37,239 --> 00:15:40,119 Speaker 3: That's exactly right. And later on, when there are all 268 00:15:40,119 --> 00:15:42,439 Speaker 3: these other things that came out, the same thing happened 269 00:15:42,439 --> 00:15:46,959 Speaker 3: where I'd get endless messages and endless emails, and it 270 00:15:46,999 --> 00:15:49,879 Speaker 3: was a lot of words, but there wasn't much meaning 271 00:15:49,959 --> 00:15:53,239 Speaker 3: behind it. There was a lot of you know, I 272 00:15:53,319 --> 00:15:55,199 Speaker 3: even said to him at one point. You know, there's 273 00:15:55,199 --> 00:15:58,239 Speaker 3: a difference between saying sorry and an apology. You know, 274 00:15:58,319 --> 00:16:02,039 Speaker 3: anybody can say sorry, but an apology is really sort 275 00:16:02,079 --> 00:16:04,439 Speaker 3: of taking time to think about what you did, how 276 00:16:04,479 --> 00:16:07,559 Speaker 3: much it hurt, and how to move forwards. And there 277 00:16:07,639 --> 00:16:09,239 Speaker 3: was none of that. 278 00:16:09,559 --> 00:16:12,439 Speaker 2: Have you had any relationships, even if short, that you 279 00:16:12,439 --> 00:16:15,239 Speaker 2: would consider successful in that maybe it didn't work out, 280 00:16:15,279 --> 00:16:17,919 Speaker 2: It just didn't, you know, make the leap from infatuation 281 00:16:17,999 --> 00:16:20,799 Speaker 2: to love or something, but that there was honesty, there 282 00:16:20,799 --> 00:16:24,199 Speaker 2: was good communication, you felt heard, scene supported. Did you 283 00:16:24,239 --> 00:16:25,679 Speaker 2: have any experiences like that? 284 00:16:26,399 --> 00:16:30,239 Speaker 3: Yeah? Actually, after my last relationship, the one that was 285 00:16:30,359 --> 00:16:34,479 Speaker 3: pretty much a disaster, about seven months later, I decided 286 00:16:34,599 --> 00:16:37,399 Speaker 3: to try dating again and I met somebody who was 287 00:16:38,319 --> 00:16:42,199 Speaker 3: very nice and he had also been in the same 288 00:16:42,639 --> 00:16:45,359 Speaker 3: situation as I had been. His ex boyfriend had cheated 289 00:16:45,359 --> 00:16:48,519 Speaker 3: a lot and treated him quite badly, so we kind 290 00:16:48,519 --> 00:16:51,479 Speaker 3: of bonded over that experience, and it was such a 291 00:16:51,559 --> 00:16:54,759 Speaker 3: different experience from with my ex. There was just this 292 00:16:54,839 --> 00:16:58,039 Speaker 3: feeling of calm. There wasn't this feeling of secrecy or 293 00:16:58,079 --> 00:17:00,959 Speaker 3: things being hidden. And it didn't last very long. It 294 00:17:00,999 --> 00:17:04,919 Speaker 3: was only about four maybe five months and he moved away, 295 00:17:04,999 --> 00:17:07,999 Speaker 3: So it ended purely because of that. Yeah, that was 296 00:17:08,039 --> 00:17:12,199 Speaker 3: like a big shock to the system, because, you know, 297 00:17:12,239 --> 00:17:15,279 Speaker 3: while it was very positive, there was a piece of 298 00:17:15,279 --> 00:17:17,599 Speaker 3: me that was thinking things are going a little bit 299 00:17:17,719 --> 00:17:21,999 Speaker 3: too smoothly. You know, when is something gonna come up, 300 00:17:22,159 --> 00:17:24,319 Speaker 3: or when is this big surprise going to happen, because 301 00:17:24,359 --> 00:17:25,879 Speaker 3: it's bound to happen again. 302 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:28,719 Speaker 4: Right when you said that there was this feeling of calm, 303 00:17:28,799 --> 00:17:31,119 Speaker 4: I was wondering if there was also a feeling of 304 00:17:31,239 --> 00:17:33,519 Speaker 4: when is the other shoe going to drop? This feeling 305 00:17:33,559 --> 00:17:36,519 Speaker 4: of constant, low level dread. 306 00:17:37,639 --> 00:17:42,679 Speaker 3: Exactly exactly that was the fear. I didn't act upon it. 307 00:17:42,839 --> 00:17:45,759 Speaker 3: I wasn't questioning or asking all these things. I kind 308 00:17:45,759 --> 00:17:48,679 Speaker 3: of just decided to go with the flow and see 309 00:17:48,679 --> 00:17:52,319 Speaker 3: how it went. But there was that feeling of things 310 00:17:52,359 --> 00:17:55,199 Speaker 3: are going a little too well. And I've been here 311 00:17:55,239 --> 00:17:58,679 Speaker 3: before where things just seemed great. But looking back, I 312 00:17:58,759 --> 00:18:01,559 Speaker 3: think it really was just that we were able to 313 00:18:01,599 --> 00:18:06,159 Speaker 3: bond over that experience and just knowing that's sort of 314 00:18:06,199 --> 00:18:09,479 Speaker 3: this unspoken thing between us that we wouldn't ever do 315 00:18:09,559 --> 00:18:10,239 Speaker 3: that to each other. 316 00:18:10,959 --> 00:18:12,759 Speaker 4: Did you know from the beginning that he was going 317 00:18:12,799 --> 00:18:15,599 Speaker 4: to move away? And if you didn't, was that upsetting 318 00:18:15,599 --> 00:18:15,799 Speaker 4: to you? 319 00:18:17,319 --> 00:18:20,719 Speaker 3: It was upsetting, but he was moving away to pursue 320 00:18:20,719 --> 00:18:23,959 Speaker 3: his career, and so I said to him, like, I 321 00:18:23,999 --> 00:18:26,239 Speaker 3: fully support that. You've got to do what's right for 322 00:18:26,279 --> 00:18:31,839 Speaker 3: you in your life right now. It was very sad, though, 323 00:18:31,879 --> 00:18:35,999 Speaker 3: because I think we were reaching the point where we 324 00:18:35,999 --> 00:18:38,319 Speaker 3: were going to be together. He had met my friends, 325 00:18:38,359 --> 00:18:40,399 Speaker 3: I'd met his friends, which was a big thing for me, 326 00:18:41,239 --> 00:18:47,199 Speaker 3: and things just felt good. And the way that he 327 00:18:47,279 --> 00:18:49,239 Speaker 3: spoke to me, the way he treated me, was just 328 00:18:49,279 --> 00:18:52,399 Speaker 3: something that I hadn't experienced in a long time. So 329 00:18:52,439 --> 00:18:55,279 Speaker 3: it was sad to say goodbye to that. 330 00:18:55,959 --> 00:18:59,199 Speaker 4: And so was there any conversation about maybe finding a 331 00:18:59,199 --> 00:19:02,599 Speaker 4: way to stay together, like you going to where he was, 332 00:19:02,719 --> 00:19:05,759 Speaker 4: or doing a long distance relationship, or ultimately figuring out 333 00:19:05,799 --> 00:19:08,279 Speaker 4: a way that you could be in the same place 334 00:19:08,319 --> 00:19:10,999 Speaker 4: together given how well it was going for both of you. 335 00:19:11,679 --> 00:19:13,639 Speaker 3: One of my friends had brought that up, but at 336 00:19:13,679 --> 00:19:16,919 Speaker 3: the time it just didn't seem viable. I have a 337 00:19:16,919 --> 00:19:20,799 Speaker 3: business here, so I wasn't able to move, and you know, 338 00:19:20,879 --> 00:19:25,239 Speaker 3: he was studying a new career, so you know, he 339 00:19:25,319 --> 00:19:26,879 Speaker 3: was going to be meeting lots of new people and 340 00:19:26,919 --> 00:19:30,079 Speaker 3: going to be very busy. And only four months that 341 00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:32,799 Speaker 3: would we had been together. So it seemed it would 342 00:19:32,839 --> 00:19:35,559 Speaker 3: be a little bit too quick to make that step forwards. 343 00:19:36,399 --> 00:19:38,839 Speaker 3: You know, could we move to the same country together, 344 00:19:38,959 --> 00:19:41,439 Speaker 3: could we even live together? You know, it seemed a 345 00:19:41,479 --> 00:19:46,079 Speaker 3: little bit too fast, and it felt quite natural just 346 00:19:46,159 --> 00:19:48,799 Speaker 3: to let it go and say goodbye. 347 00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:51,399 Speaker 4: That ended maybe about a year and a half ago. 348 00:19:52,199 --> 00:19:53,679 Speaker 3: Yes, that's right, Adam. 349 00:19:53,719 --> 00:19:57,879 Speaker 2: What's so encouraging there is that small, short relationship gave 350 00:19:57,919 --> 00:20:00,959 Speaker 2: you a taste of what it should feel like when 351 00:20:00,959 --> 00:20:03,839 Speaker 2: you don't have to be anxious and worried and checking 352 00:20:03,919 --> 00:20:08,079 Speaker 2: up and not getting information and catching small discrepancies and 353 00:20:08,159 --> 00:20:11,639 Speaker 2: truth and those kinds of things. When someone's communicative and 354 00:20:11,719 --> 00:20:14,319 Speaker 2: can show up for you and has the same priorities 355 00:20:14,319 --> 00:20:16,999 Speaker 2: and values that you do in terms of honesty and cheating, 356 00:20:17,879 --> 00:20:21,399 Speaker 2: you've got a taste of that. I'm curious, since then, then, 357 00:20:21,679 --> 00:20:27,439 Speaker 2: have you been able to keep that taste going in 358 00:20:27,479 --> 00:20:29,959 Speaker 2: your latest elections of people you dated? 359 00:20:30,559 --> 00:20:35,239 Speaker 3: Well, since him, I haven't dated anybody. And you know, 360 00:20:35,319 --> 00:20:38,799 Speaker 3: after that relationship, I kind of made the choice that no, 361 00:20:38,879 --> 00:20:41,039 Speaker 3: I think I just need to take time and be 362 00:20:41,199 --> 00:20:44,719 Speaker 3: with myself. And that is kind of extended into you know, 363 00:20:44,759 --> 00:20:46,879 Speaker 3: I'm single, I don't need to have anybody. But I 364 00:20:46,879 --> 00:20:50,919 Speaker 3: think part of it is a bit worried that, you know, 365 00:20:50,959 --> 00:20:54,279 Speaker 3: I'm going to find somebody again and this whole cycle 366 00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:58,639 Speaker 3: of lying and cheating is going to start again, and 367 00:20:58,679 --> 00:21:01,399 Speaker 3: I just don't have the energy for that anymore. It's 368 00:21:01,439 --> 00:21:02,719 Speaker 3: just too emotionally draining. 369 00:21:03,159 --> 00:21:05,399 Speaker 4: I want to just go back to my question from earlier. 370 00:21:05,479 --> 00:21:08,199 Speaker 4: So were only together four months and he was leaving 371 00:21:08,239 --> 00:21:13,039 Speaker 4: to go changed careers. So he must have known at 372 00:21:13,039 --> 00:21:16,559 Speaker 4: some point in those four months, pretty early on that 373 00:21:16,639 --> 00:21:18,039 Speaker 4: he would be leaving. 374 00:21:17,999 --> 00:21:23,279 Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, that's interesting actually because things were going incredibly well, 375 00:21:24,199 --> 00:21:27,799 Speaker 3: and towards the end, I noticed he started to distance 376 00:21:27,879 --> 00:21:31,319 Speaker 3: himself quite quickly compared to how close we were. He 377 00:21:31,439 --> 00:21:35,519 Speaker 3: distanced himself quite quickly. So I did confront him and 378 00:21:35,559 --> 00:21:38,319 Speaker 3: ask him like, what is going on, Like, are you 379 00:21:38,319 --> 00:21:40,639 Speaker 3: you know, changing your mind about us? And that's when 380 00:21:40,639 --> 00:21:42,679 Speaker 3: he told me that he was leaving. And he also 381 00:21:42,719 --> 00:21:44,719 Speaker 3: thought it was a good idea that we kind of 382 00:21:44,719 --> 00:21:47,279 Speaker 3: pumped the brakes considering that he would be leaving. 383 00:21:47,999 --> 00:21:52,319 Speaker 4: But here's another example of even though he didn't cheat 384 00:21:52,319 --> 00:21:56,079 Speaker 4: on you, there seemed to be open lines of communications 385 00:21:56,079 --> 00:22:00,279 Speaker 4: compared to your other relationships. This was a big omission 386 00:22:01,439 --> 00:22:04,519 Speaker 4: that he had this thing going on that he was 387 00:22:04,519 --> 00:22:07,319 Speaker 4: going to be leaving, and instead of telling you that, 388 00:22:07,919 --> 00:22:11,559 Speaker 4: he just pulled back back. And then you had to 389 00:22:11,599 --> 00:22:13,959 Speaker 4: confront him, and then he was honest with you about 390 00:22:13,959 --> 00:22:17,159 Speaker 4: what was happening, but he wasn't proactive about coming to 391 00:22:17,199 --> 00:22:21,679 Speaker 4: you and saying here's what's happening. So I think when 392 00:22:21,679 --> 00:22:25,159 Speaker 4: you talk about this year and a half of feeling like, well, 393 00:22:25,199 --> 00:22:29,039 Speaker 4: I don't need anyone, it sounds like from a very 394 00:22:29,079 --> 00:22:32,279 Speaker 4: young age you've been quite lonely. Your mother died when 395 00:22:32,279 --> 00:22:36,399 Speaker 4: you were nine, your family didn't talk about it, You've 396 00:22:36,439 --> 00:22:40,479 Speaker 4: had some difficulty with your father, and you've had these 397 00:22:40,879 --> 00:22:45,439 Speaker 4: relationships that have been very distressing. And I can see 398 00:22:45,719 --> 00:22:50,319 Speaker 4: why it might feel safer to say I would rather 399 00:22:51,559 --> 00:22:57,519 Speaker 4: be self sufficient than acknowledge my desire to have a partner. 400 00:22:59,319 --> 00:23:01,839 Speaker 4: But I think you wrote to us because you do 401 00:23:01,919 --> 00:23:04,359 Speaker 4: have a desire to have a partner. You just want 402 00:23:04,399 --> 00:23:06,399 Speaker 4: to have a partner in a way that you haven't 403 00:23:06,439 --> 00:23:09,119 Speaker 4: quite experienced yet and want to figure out how to 404 00:23:09,119 --> 00:23:12,519 Speaker 4: do that. And so I think when we talk about honesty, 405 00:23:12,959 --> 00:23:17,999 Speaker 4: let's start with honesty towards yourself, which is, it'll be 406 00:23:18,039 --> 00:23:22,239 Speaker 4: really important for you to be honest with yourself that 407 00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:25,159 Speaker 4: you do have this desire that you are lonely, that 408 00:23:25,239 --> 00:23:31,519 Speaker 4: you would like to have a satisfying, mutually fulfilling, trusting relationship. 409 00:23:33,279 --> 00:23:35,679 Speaker 4: When other people lie to us, sometimes we end up 410 00:23:35,759 --> 00:23:38,959 Speaker 4: lying to ourselves. It just becomes such a part of 411 00:23:38,999 --> 00:23:42,879 Speaker 4: the atmosphere that there's just nobody acknowledging the truth. So 412 00:23:42,919 --> 00:23:45,279 Speaker 4: I want if anyone's going to be honest with you, 413 00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:46,879 Speaker 4: I want you to be honest with you. 414 00:23:47,479 --> 00:23:50,599 Speaker 3: Yeah, now, I think you're right. I think I noticed 415 00:23:50,639 --> 00:23:54,959 Speaker 3: that in hindsight afterward with my ex, that there was 416 00:23:55,039 --> 00:23:57,719 Speaker 3: so many red flags at one point, and I was 417 00:23:57,799 --> 00:24:00,879 Speaker 3: just turning a blind eye, and I asked myself why 418 00:24:01,399 --> 00:24:03,479 Speaker 3: I was doing that. I don't think I realized at 419 00:24:03,479 --> 00:24:06,639 Speaker 3: the time I was lying to myself that these things 420 00:24:06,679 --> 00:24:11,199 Speaker 3: were really happening when it was quite obvious that they were. 421 00:24:11,719 --> 00:24:14,519 Speaker 2: And so it's interesting there, Adam, because two things that 422 00:24:14,559 --> 00:24:19,599 Speaker 2: are important to you, honesty and trust, are the things 423 00:24:19,599 --> 00:24:22,599 Speaker 2: you need to repair within yourself in a way, the honesty, 424 00:24:22,759 --> 00:24:26,719 Speaker 2: as Laur just explained, and the trust as well, and 425 00:24:26,799 --> 00:24:29,839 Speaker 2: you to trust yourself means that when you say I 426 00:24:29,919 --> 00:24:33,559 Speaker 2: won't accept something, you indeed won't and you won't turn 427 00:24:33,599 --> 00:24:36,559 Speaker 2: a blind eye to so many incidences of that very 428 00:24:36,639 --> 00:24:39,479 Speaker 2: thing that you said you won't accept. When you set 429 00:24:39,479 --> 00:24:42,039 Speaker 2: a standard for yourself that then you reflect to the 430 00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:46,039 Speaker 2: other person, But then you don't maintain that standard, you 431 00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:49,439 Speaker 2: begin to lose trust in yourself as well. So both 432 00:24:49,479 --> 00:24:52,999 Speaker 2: honesty and trust are things you need to repair within 433 00:24:53,039 --> 00:24:57,559 Speaker 2: yourself in your own internal dialogue before you can repair 434 00:24:57,639 --> 00:24:59,079 Speaker 2: them outside. 435 00:25:00,319 --> 00:25:02,559 Speaker 3: I have been avoiding it, I think, deep down, if 436 00:25:02,599 --> 00:25:05,159 Speaker 3: I ask myself, it has been more about me avoiding 437 00:25:05,199 --> 00:25:08,599 Speaker 3: being hurt. And there are a lot of excuses as 438 00:25:08,599 --> 00:25:11,799 Speaker 3: to why, you know, my career, I'm too busy, I this, 439 00:25:11,959 --> 00:25:14,519 Speaker 3: that and the other, But actually I think it's those 440 00:25:14,559 --> 00:25:16,039 Speaker 3: are all just excuses. 441 00:25:16,479 --> 00:25:19,519 Speaker 4: Can we hear a little bit more about where some 442 00:25:19,599 --> 00:25:22,759 Speaker 4: of this might have started. Can we hear a little 443 00:25:22,799 --> 00:25:24,919 Speaker 4: bit more about what happened when you were nine? 444 00:25:26,799 --> 00:25:30,919 Speaker 3: Yeah, so my mom passed away when I was nine 445 00:25:30,999 --> 00:25:35,559 Speaker 3: years old. She had cancer. She was diagnosed when I 446 00:25:35,679 --> 00:25:39,799 Speaker 3: was about four years old. But of course I wasn't 447 00:25:39,839 --> 00:25:42,879 Speaker 3: really aware of what was going on until I was 448 00:25:42,879 --> 00:25:47,559 Speaker 3: about seven eight. That's when I really started to get 449 00:25:47,559 --> 00:25:51,919 Speaker 3: a deeper understanding of her illness and what that meant. 450 00:25:52,159 --> 00:25:57,039 Speaker 4: You got a deeper understanding because your parents communicated that 451 00:25:57,119 --> 00:26:01,079 Speaker 4: to you, or because you just intuited it from watching 452 00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:02,239 Speaker 4: what was going on around you. 453 00:26:02,919 --> 00:26:06,199 Speaker 3: Both, I think both. My dad was very honest with us, 454 00:26:06,399 --> 00:26:09,079 Speaker 3: especially towards the end. We would have family meetings, while 455 00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:12,119 Speaker 3: we sit down and he would tell us, you know, 456 00:26:14,999 --> 00:26:17,959 Speaker 3: the condition that my mom was in. But also before that, 457 00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:21,359 Speaker 3: I would notice that I spent so much of my 458 00:26:21,439 --> 00:26:23,599 Speaker 3: time with her as a kid, and there are a 459 00:26:23,599 --> 00:26:25,279 Speaker 3: lot of times where I could see that she was 460 00:26:25,439 --> 00:26:28,439 Speaker 3: just really really struggling. And at school as well. I mean, 461 00:26:28,479 --> 00:26:31,119 Speaker 3: all the teachers knew as well, so they would pull 462 00:26:31,159 --> 00:26:34,159 Speaker 3: me aside sometimes and kind of try and get me 463 00:26:34,199 --> 00:26:36,079 Speaker 3: to talk about it or ask me if I'm okay. 464 00:26:36,799 --> 00:26:38,759 Speaker 3: So there was just a lot of things that I noticed. 465 00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:42,039 Speaker 3: My dad did, like speak to us very honestly about 466 00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:44,119 Speaker 3: what was going to happen. 467 00:26:44,719 --> 00:26:46,719 Speaker 4: What about your mom, did she speak to you about 468 00:26:46,759 --> 00:26:47,559 Speaker 4: what was happening? 469 00:26:49,199 --> 00:26:53,999 Speaker 3: No, that's a good question. I think actually in all 470 00:26:53,999 --> 00:26:56,799 Speaker 3: of these family meetings. I think my mom found it 471 00:26:56,839 --> 00:26:59,399 Speaker 3: probably too difficult to be there. You know, I have 472 00:26:59,479 --> 00:27:03,479 Speaker 3: two sisters, and I think she probably thought it was 473 00:27:03,519 --> 00:27:06,199 Speaker 3: going to be too difficult to see our reaction when 474 00:27:06,199 --> 00:27:09,719 Speaker 3: we were told that she was dying and that, you know, 475 00:27:09,759 --> 00:27:12,599 Speaker 3: there's nothing that could be done to stop that. 476 00:27:13,479 --> 00:27:16,199 Speaker 4: I'm sure there was a period when she thought that 477 00:27:16,999 --> 00:27:20,679 Speaker 4: she might be able to get through the cancer. Did 478 00:27:20,759 --> 00:27:24,199 Speaker 4: she ever say to you, hey, I'm sick, but we're 479 00:27:24,319 --> 00:27:28,239 Speaker 4: treating it, and you know, we're hoping it's going to 480 00:27:28,279 --> 00:27:31,119 Speaker 4: be okay. It just was never acknowledged that she was 481 00:27:31,159 --> 00:27:32,559 Speaker 4: sick by her. 482 00:27:33,879 --> 00:27:37,999 Speaker 3: I have no memories really of her talking about it. 483 00:27:38,039 --> 00:27:40,839 Speaker 3: I remember when she was, you know, in her last 484 00:27:40,879 --> 00:27:47,119 Speaker 3: few days, she spoke to us because we were with her, 485 00:27:47,919 --> 00:27:49,919 Speaker 3: and you know, she said that she didn't want us 486 00:27:49,919 --> 00:27:52,679 Speaker 3: to be upset about what was happening. Other than that, 487 00:27:52,719 --> 00:27:56,079 Speaker 3: I don't have any memories of her, you know, actively 488 00:27:56,159 --> 00:27:59,599 Speaker 3: talking about it with us. I think she probably tried 489 00:27:59,639 --> 00:28:03,839 Speaker 3: to avoid talking about it as much as possible. 490 00:28:04,639 --> 00:28:09,799 Speaker 4: I can understand why, as your mother have been so 491 00:28:09,799 --> 00:28:12,959 Speaker 4: painful for her, to imagine how upsetting it would be 492 00:28:12,999 --> 00:28:16,119 Speaker 4: for you and your sisters to lose her. But the 493 00:28:16,239 --> 00:28:20,279 Speaker 4: message that she gave trying to protect you was don't 494 00:28:20,319 --> 00:28:25,559 Speaker 4: be upset about this incredibly life changing, upsetting thing. And 495 00:28:25,599 --> 00:28:29,999 Speaker 4: I'm thinking about how you started the conversation today saying, yeah, 496 00:28:30,039 --> 00:28:31,959 Speaker 4: he didn't tell me where he was and he was 497 00:28:32,159 --> 00:28:34,319 Speaker 4: not truthful about that, but it was just small things. 498 00:28:34,439 --> 00:28:40,279 Speaker 4: I wasn't really upset. So this idea that you're not 499 00:28:40,319 --> 00:28:44,959 Speaker 4: supposed to be upset about something that is incredibly upsetting 500 00:28:47,079 --> 00:28:51,079 Speaker 4: has lived inside of you for quite a long time. 501 00:28:52,319 --> 00:28:54,399 Speaker 4: She wasn't saying, I know this is going to be 502 00:28:54,479 --> 00:28:57,799 Speaker 4: really upsetting. I love you so much. It's so painful 503 00:28:57,919 --> 00:29:00,119 Speaker 4: to know that I'm not going to be here for you. 504 00:29:00,759 --> 00:29:03,839 Speaker 4: It's okay, don't be upset, but I'm dying, but don't 505 00:29:03,879 --> 00:29:10,079 Speaker 4: be upset. And I understand her intention was loving, but 506 00:29:10,119 --> 00:29:12,919 Speaker 4: the message is something that you seem to keep living 507 00:29:12,959 --> 00:29:15,839 Speaker 4: out in your relationships. Yeah. 508 00:29:15,999 --> 00:29:19,119 Speaker 3: It's interesting with many different things. I think that's been 509 00:29:19,159 --> 00:29:23,159 Speaker 3: the case where I, you know, something might be quite painful, 510 00:29:24,599 --> 00:29:28,319 Speaker 3: and I don't give it the space that it probably needs, 511 00:29:28,679 --> 00:29:32,119 Speaker 3: and I do minimize it and I avoid talking about 512 00:29:32,159 --> 00:29:35,639 Speaker 3: it with lots of things. But I mean, especially you 513 00:29:35,679 --> 00:29:39,439 Speaker 3: know the topic of my mom. I've never really shared 514 00:29:39,479 --> 00:29:44,079 Speaker 3: it with anybody, even like my close relationships. It's something 515 00:29:44,079 --> 00:29:48,239 Speaker 3: that I feel like I shouldn't burden them with that. 516 00:29:48,599 --> 00:29:51,159 Speaker 3: It's something that people don't need to hear. It's a 517 00:29:51,159 --> 00:29:54,399 Speaker 3: lot to take in, so I just don't. 518 00:29:55,599 --> 00:30:00,199 Speaker 2: But that there is the legacy of that last wish 519 00:30:00,239 --> 00:30:03,359 Speaker 2: of your mom, don't be upset, And I think that 520 00:30:03,399 --> 00:30:07,239 Speaker 2: you internalize that to mean that your feelings can be 521 00:30:07,359 --> 00:30:12,319 Speaker 2: a burden to other people. And I'm wondering that was 522 00:30:12,359 --> 00:30:15,079 Speaker 2: your mom. You mentioned that teachers pulled you out to 523 00:30:15,199 --> 00:30:17,119 Speaker 2: check in and see how you were doing because they 524 00:30:17,199 --> 00:30:20,519 Speaker 2: knew what was going on. But in your family, in 525 00:30:20,559 --> 00:30:23,559 Speaker 2: these family meetings, in one on ones with your dad 526 00:30:23,639 --> 00:30:27,719 Speaker 2: or your sisters, was there any discussion of how you felt, 527 00:30:27,999 --> 00:30:30,479 Speaker 2: not just what was going on, but how you felt 528 00:30:30,519 --> 00:30:32,759 Speaker 2: about what was going on. Was that something that was 529 00:30:32,759 --> 00:30:33,839 Speaker 2: discussed in the family. 530 00:30:35,239 --> 00:30:39,359 Speaker 3: No, from my memory, no, it was more about the 531 00:30:39,399 --> 00:30:42,959 Speaker 3: things that were happening and what will happen. We didn't 532 00:30:42,999 --> 00:30:46,999 Speaker 3: actually talk much about how we felt, you know, before, 533 00:30:47,159 --> 00:30:52,519 Speaker 3: during and after, we never really had that discussion. 534 00:30:53,599 --> 00:30:57,559 Speaker 2: Have you ever tried in your family since to have 535 00:30:57,639 --> 00:31:00,479 Speaker 2: a talk with anyone, whether your sisters or your dad 536 00:31:01,279 --> 00:31:04,279 Speaker 2: about how you felt about your mom dying when you 537 00:31:04,319 --> 00:31:04,999 Speaker 2: were so young. 538 00:31:05,639 --> 00:31:09,199 Speaker 3: No, we haven't. You know, when it comes to my 539 00:31:09,399 --> 00:31:12,639 Speaker 3: mom's birthday and her death anniversary, we were all share 540 00:31:12,679 --> 00:31:16,719 Speaker 3: a message saying that we're thinking about her. That's as 541 00:31:16,759 --> 00:31:20,599 Speaker 3: deep as it's gone. Really. I mean we when we're 542 00:31:20,599 --> 00:31:23,359 Speaker 3: all together, we might share a couple of memories here 543 00:31:23,359 --> 00:31:25,919 Speaker 3: and there, but we never talked about the actual experience 544 00:31:25,959 --> 00:31:28,199 Speaker 3: of what we went through as a family. 545 00:31:30,199 --> 00:31:33,239 Speaker 4: How old were your sisters when your mom died? 546 00:31:33,559 --> 00:31:36,519 Speaker 3: I was nine. I had one sister that was eleven 547 00:31:36,759 --> 00:31:38,079 Speaker 3: and thirteen. 548 00:31:38,119 --> 00:31:41,879 Speaker 4: So you were really the youngest and the least able 549 00:31:41,959 --> 00:31:45,679 Speaker 4: probably to know how to talk about what was going on. 550 00:31:46,199 --> 00:31:46,479 Speaker 3: Yeah. 551 00:31:47,239 --> 00:31:51,319 Speaker 2: Yeah, so you're nine years old and your mom passes away. 552 00:31:52,559 --> 00:31:54,679 Speaker 2: What was the grieving like for you? We were to 553 00:31:54,679 --> 00:31:56,759 Speaker 2: see you then, what would we be seeing that was 554 00:31:56,799 --> 00:31:58,919 Speaker 2: going on with you? So you weren't talking about how 555 00:31:58,959 --> 00:32:02,479 Speaker 2: you felt, but how were you managing? What did it 556 00:32:02,519 --> 00:32:04,959 Speaker 2: look like to see you managing in the aftermath? 557 00:32:06,279 --> 00:32:10,079 Speaker 3: When my dad told us that she was going to die, 558 00:32:10,199 --> 00:32:12,919 Speaker 3: that was a moment that we all broke down as 559 00:32:12,919 --> 00:32:19,479 Speaker 3: a family. And also the night that she died, she 560 00:32:19,519 --> 00:32:21,719 Speaker 3: died at home. She decided she wanted to be at 561 00:32:21,719 --> 00:32:24,519 Speaker 3: home for her last few days. I mean, I was 562 00:32:25,559 --> 00:32:30,919 Speaker 3: hysterically crying watching it happen in front of me, and 563 00:32:30,959 --> 00:32:33,799 Speaker 3: I think the following days, I mean I remember bits 564 00:32:33,839 --> 00:32:35,519 Speaker 3: and pieces, but a lot of it is just kind 565 00:32:35,519 --> 00:32:38,639 Speaker 3: of blank. I mean, I know that I was really 566 00:32:38,759 --> 00:32:41,999 Speaker 3: hurt and really upset, but as very little that I 567 00:32:42,039 --> 00:32:45,319 Speaker 3: remember about what happened after that she died. 568 00:32:46,039 --> 00:32:48,039 Speaker 4: When you got the news that your mother was going 569 00:32:48,079 --> 00:32:51,119 Speaker 4: to die, and you said you broke down and were crying, 570 00:32:52,119 --> 00:32:54,919 Speaker 4: was there anyone there to comfort you? What happened to 571 00:32:54,959 --> 00:32:55,439 Speaker 4: that moment? 572 00:32:55,959 --> 00:32:58,479 Speaker 3: I remember it quite clearly, and we were all sat 573 00:32:58,519 --> 00:33:02,199 Speaker 3: in different places in our living room, and I think 574 00:33:02,239 --> 00:33:05,839 Speaker 3: we all just broke down. We didn't, you know, come 575 00:33:05,879 --> 00:33:08,359 Speaker 3: together or embrace each other or anything like that. We 576 00:33:08,399 --> 00:33:10,119 Speaker 3: all kind of just sat in our own place and 577 00:33:11,479 --> 00:33:13,079 Speaker 3: cried separately, and. 578 00:33:13,039 --> 00:33:16,199 Speaker 4: No one came and hugged you or tried to comfort 579 00:33:16,239 --> 00:33:16,919 Speaker 4: you in any way. 580 00:33:18,679 --> 00:33:21,839 Speaker 3: I'm sure my dad maybe did at some point, but 581 00:33:22,079 --> 00:33:25,399 Speaker 3: that wasn't something that he really did too much fround 582 00:33:25,439 --> 00:33:26,839 Speaker 3: my childhood. He didn't really hug it. 583 00:33:27,239 --> 00:33:30,679 Speaker 4: And once you got that news, your mom wasn't in 584 00:33:30,719 --> 00:33:34,239 Speaker 4: the room when that news was delivered to you. So 585 00:33:34,319 --> 00:33:38,439 Speaker 4: did everybody just not acknowledge it to your mom? Meaning 586 00:33:38,439 --> 00:33:42,879 Speaker 4: nobody said, hey, mom, we're so sad. Dad told us 587 00:33:42,959 --> 00:33:45,839 Speaker 4: that you're going to die. So you just carried on 588 00:33:45,999 --> 00:33:51,119 Speaker 4: with your mom as if things were normal. Nobody acknowledged 589 00:33:51,159 --> 00:33:54,159 Speaker 4: that this news had been delivered to the three of you. 590 00:33:54,279 --> 00:33:55,439 Speaker 3: No. 591 00:33:55,439 --> 00:33:59,399 Speaker 2: No, So there's something that you learned there very young, 592 00:34:00,079 --> 00:34:05,799 Speaker 2: which is you can have huge feelings for really good reason, 593 00:34:06,439 --> 00:34:10,479 Speaker 2: and you have to kind of rea them by yourself. 594 00:34:10,519 --> 00:34:12,999 Speaker 2: You don't share them with people. People don't ask you 595 00:34:13,599 --> 00:34:15,839 Speaker 2: about them, you don't ask other people who you know 596 00:34:15,959 --> 00:34:20,279 Speaker 2: are having similar feelings about theirs. There's this idea of 597 00:34:20,479 --> 00:34:23,479 Speaker 2: you have to go on as if things are normal. 598 00:34:24,439 --> 00:34:26,719 Speaker 2: And I'm saying that in that way because it's a 599 00:34:26,799 --> 00:34:32,279 Speaker 2: bit the rationalization you had about the cheating with the 600 00:34:32,999 --> 00:34:36,279 Speaker 2: longer relationship, which is that there was a part of 601 00:34:36,279 --> 00:34:37,839 Speaker 2: you that just wanted to go on as if things 602 00:34:37,879 --> 00:34:42,759 Speaker 2: were normal. You had to learn how to compartmentalize or 603 00:34:42,759 --> 00:34:45,399 Speaker 2: put aside your feelings or just sit with them yourself 604 00:34:45,439 --> 00:34:48,359 Speaker 2: without being able to share them from a really young age. 605 00:34:48,639 --> 00:34:51,439 Speaker 2: You've gotten really good at it, at being able to 606 00:34:51,479 --> 00:34:56,679 Speaker 2: sit with big feelings and not have them validated by anyone, 607 00:34:56,959 --> 00:35:01,599 Speaker 2: and then you end up questioning their validity because if 608 00:35:01,639 --> 00:35:06,119 Speaker 2: you couldn't even get validation for how horrible and difficult 609 00:35:06,159 --> 00:35:09,079 Speaker 2: it was when your mom was dying and then died 610 00:35:09,399 --> 00:35:11,399 Speaker 2: in the home and in front of you, and that 611 00:35:11,559 --> 00:35:16,799 Speaker 2: couldn't get validated externally, verbally or in other kinds of ways, 612 00:35:17,359 --> 00:35:20,439 Speaker 2: then that's the legacy that you kind of bring forth. 613 00:35:20,559 --> 00:35:23,399 Speaker 2: The idea of my feelings won't get validated, there's no 614 00:35:23,519 --> 00:35:26,319 Speaker 2: point in really talking about them too much. 615 00:35:27,879 --> 00:35:34,839 Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. It wasn't until quite recently that somebody I've 616 00:35:34,839 --> 00:35:40,159 Speaker 3: been doing therapy as well, that I was asked, how 617 00:35:40,679 --> 00:35:42,719 Speaker 3: who do you share this stuff with? Who do you 618 00:35:42,759 --> 00:35:46,359 Speaker 3: share these memories with about your mom or that experience? 619 00:35:47,079 --> 00:35:49,319 Speaker 3: And it was only then that I kind of looked 620 00:35:49,359 --> 00:35:52,879 Speaker 3: back and I thought, for over twenty years, I haven't 621 00:35:53,519 --> 00:35:56,119 Speaker 3: shared it with anybody. You know, there are very specific 622 00:35:56,199 --> 00:36:01,279 Speaker 3: things about that experience which even the closest people in 623 00:36:01,319 --> 00:36:04,279 Speaker 3: my life I've never shared that with them at all. 624 00:36:06,519 --> 00:36:09,679 Speaker 4: Can you tell us a little bit about what happened 625 00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:12,359 Speaker 4: between you and your dad since then? Did your father 626 00:36:12,479 --> 00:36:15,239 Speaker 4: remarry or was it you and your sisters and your 627 00:36:15,359 --> 00:36:16,359 Speaker 4: dad after that? 628 00:36:17,359 --> 00:36:21,679 Speaker 3: Yeah? So my family's a little bit complicated. He didn't remarry, 629 00:36:22,079 --> 00:36:25,439 Speaker 3: but he was in a very long term relationship. I 630 00:36:25,439 --> 00:36:28,599 Speaker 3: think when I was about eleven, he got into a 631 00:36:28,639 --> 00:36:33,439 Speaker 3: new relationship and they were together for about ten years. 632 00:36:33,759 --> 00:36:37,319 Speaker 3: They broke up in the end. So she was a 633 00:36:37,319 --> 00:36:40,519 Speaker 3: big part of my life growing up, but she didn't 634 00:36:40,839 --> 00:36:43,479 Speaker 3: have much experience with kids. She kind of just got 635 00:36:44,479 --> 00:36:47,399 Speaker 3: thrown in with three teenagers at that point. 636 00:36:47,519 --> 00:36:50,879 Speaker 4: When she moved in, did the house still have the 637 00:36:50,879 --> 00:36:53,239 Speaker 4: presence of your mom and it meaning there was still 638 00:36:53,679 --> 00:36:57,479 Speaker 4: pictures of for you kids, so that both things could 639 00:36:57,559 --> 00:37:00,559 Speaker 4: co exist. There's the memory of your mom and then 640 00:37:00,599 --> 00:37:03,199 Speaker 4: there's this new person in the house. Was there any 641 00:37:03,279 --> 00:37:05,719 Speaker 4: kind of presence of your mom that continued in the 642 00:37:05,759 --> 00:37:06,959 Speaker 4: house after she died? 643 00:37:08,119 --> 00:37:11,719 Speaker 3: You know, when she moved in, a lot did change. 644 00:37:11,799 --> 00:37:14,759 Speaker 3: A lot changed quite quickly. You know, the color of 645 00:37:14,799 --> 00:37:17,599 Speaker 3: the walls, you know the decorations, and it was a 646 00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:22,519 Speaker 3: very very different style to what we had before. There 647 00:37:22,519 --> 00:37:26,679 Speaker 3: were a few pictures I think of my mum in 648 00:37:26,759 --> 00:37:29,719 Speaker 3: the house, but not many, not many at all. 649 00:37:30,559 --> 00:37:33,079 Speaker 2: What was that like for you when she moves in 650 00:37:33,119 --> 00:37:37,879 Speaker 2: and the house changes, Because as kids, that often feels 651 00:37:38,599 --> 00:37:40,839 Speaker 2: like a bit of the betrayal in terms of your 652 00:37:40,919 --> 00:37:44,039 Speaker 2: mom or being replaced, etc. Do you remember how you 653 00:37:44,119 --> 00:37:47,679 Speaker 2: felt about her moving in and about the I'm going 654 00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:49,599 Speaker 2: to guess that nobody asked you how you felt about 655 00:37:49,599 --> 00:37:52,479 Speaker 2: her moving in, But correct me if that's incorrect, But 656 00:37:52,959 --> 00:37:54,799 Speaker 2: do you remember how you felt about her moving in 657 00:37:54,839 --> 00:37:55,719 Speaker 2: and those changes? 658 00:37:56,039 --> 00:37:58,119 Speaker 3: No, you're right, I don't think anybody did ask me. 659 00:37:58,279 --> 00:38:01,079 Speaker 3: But it did feel like a betrayal. I don't think 660 00:38:01,079 --> 00:38:03,839 Speaker 3: I have a voice that it felt like a lot 661 00:38:03,839 --> 00:38:08,519 Speaker 3: of my mum's essence was being quite like literally being 662 00:38:08,519 --> 00:38:12,679 Speaker 3: painted over, you know. And yeah, it was sad. It 663 00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:16,959 Speaker 3: was sad to see these things that you know, I 664 00:38:17,039 --> 00:38:23,039 Speaker 3: considered a home be changed. Now it is quite confusing 665 00:38:23,079 --> 00:38:23,479 Speaker 3: as well. 666 00:38:24,879 --> 00:38:30,879 Speaker 4: There wasn't a lot of awareness of how having a 667 00:38:30,919 --> 00:38:34,319 Speaker 4: connection to your mom would be important to the kids 668 00:38:34,959 --> 00:38:38,759 Speaker 4: in the house. It seems like not only were you 669 00:38:38,839 --> 00:38:40,999 Speaker 4: not asked about it, but there was just a lack 670 00:38:41,039 --> 00:38:43,999 Speaker 4: of awareness that there might even be feelings about it. 671 00:38:45,999 --> 00:38:46,519 Speaker 2: Yeah. 672 00:38:46,879 --> 00:38:51,479 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think because it wasn't something that we talked about. 673 00:38:51,559 --> 00:38:58,399 Speaker 3: For me, it just seemed somewhat normal, and you know, 674 00:38:58,479 --> 00:39:02,039 Speaker 3: with somebody else moving into the house, it was already 675 00:39:02,039 --> 00:39:03,639 Speaker 3: a big change. It was like a big change to 676 00:39:03,679 --> 00:39:06,719 Speaker 3: the way that we did things and our schedules. And 677 00:39:06,799 --> 00:39:08,599 Speaker 3: it was also at the you know, a point of 678 00:39:08,799 --> 00:39:11,199 Speaker 3: time in my life life where I was changing as 679 00:39:11,199 --> 00:39:13,719 Speaker 3: well as changing school, and all these new things were happening. 680 00:39:14,639 --> 00:39:17,999 Speaker 3: It was overwhelming, and I was very little discussion about 681 00:39:17,999 --> 00:39:19,319 Speaker 3: what was going on. 682 00:39:19,959 --> 00:39:22,319 Speaker 4: Did you have friends at school at that time. 683 00:39:22,919 --> 00:39:25,399 Speaker 3: I had one good friend at the time when I 684 00:39:25,479 --> 00:39:28,759 Speaker 3: was quite young. I mean, a lot of my friends 685 00:39:28,839 --> 00:39:31,159 Speaker 3: knew that my mom had passed away, but it was 686 00:39:31,199 --> 00:39:33,279 Speaker 3: never something that we talked about. 687 00:39:34,359 --> 00:39:37,999 Speaker 2: You said that you left home and home being home 688 00:39:38,039 --> 00:39:42,039 Speaker 2: and country when you were really young. It sounded a 689 00:39:42,079 --> 00:39:44,919 Speaker 2: little bit like you were in a hurry to lead. 690 00:39:45,439 --> 00:39:47,079 Speaker 2: Tell me if that's the case, and tell me, if so, 691 00:39:47,599 --> 00:39:49,639 Speaker 2: why you were in a hurry to leave. 692 00:39:50,599 --> 00:39:52,719 Speaker 3: No, you're right, it was pretty much as soon as 693 00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:56,039 Speaker 3: I turned eighteen, getting on a plane and going halfway 694 00:39:56,039 --> 00:39:58,679 Speaker 3: across the world. I think there was just a lot 695 00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:01,679 Speaker 3: about my home life which I wasn't very happy about. 696 00:40:02,199 --> 00:40:04,319 Speaker 3: I did feel alone. I don't think at that point 697 00:40:04,359 --> 00:40:06,959 Speaker 3: I had many people in my life that I would 698 00:40:06,999 --> 00:40:10,839 Speaker 3: have considered close. It just made sense to me to 699 00:40:10,919 --> 00:40:14,839 Speaker 3: get up and completely change the environment and to see 700 00:40:14,839 --> 00:40:18,319 Speaker 3: what happened, and in many ways it was very good. 701 00:40:18,399 --> 00:40:20,879 Speaker 3: I made lots of really close friends by doing that 702 00:40:21,039 --> 00:40:24,559 Speaker 3: and had lots of great experiences. But you're right, it 703 00:40:24,599 --> 00:40:27,159 Speaker 3: was a get up and go as quickly as I could. 704 00:40:27,479 --> 00:40:29,479 Speaker 4: You talked a little bit in your letter about the 705 00:40:29,519 --> 00:40:31,719 Speaker 4: struggles that you've had with your dad. Can you tell 706 00:40:31,799 --> 00:40:32,479 Speaker 4: us about those. 707 00:40:33,519 --> 00:40:36,839 Speaker 3: Yeah. From a young age, I was very close with 708 00:40:36,879 --> 00:40:41,559 Speaker 3: my mom, and I always was a little bit scared 709 00:40:41,599 --> 00:40:44,679 Speaker 3: of my dad, not because he was a bad guy 710 00:40:44,799 --> 00:40:47,479 Speaker 3: or anything. It was just, you know, sometimes he could 711 00:40:47,519 --> 00:40:49,799 Speaker 3: lose his temper and I found that a little bit scary, 712 00:40:50,759 --> 00:40:53,279 Speaker 3: and so from a young age I was always quite 713 00:40:53,599 --> 00:40:56,519 Speaker 3: kept my distance from him and was spent all my 714 00:40:56,599 --> 00:41:00,119 Speaker 3: time with my mom. After my mom passed away, we 715 00:41:00,159 --> 00:41:05,119 Speaker 3: did spend time together, and we would have some pretty 716 00:41:05,159 --> 00:41:08,639 Speaker 3: big arguments as well. We had like a few big blowouts. 717 00:41:09,479 --> 00:41:14,799 Speaker 3: Up until recently, we've had some huge arguments. You know. 718 00:41:14,839 --> 00:41:18,439 Speaker 3: There certainly been times where I've been the instigator or 719 00:41:18,559 --> 00:41:22,039 Speaker 3: being pushing his buttons, but I think a lot of 720 00:41:22,079 --> 00:41:26,239 Speaker 3: them has also been him unfairly being angry at me 721 00:41:26,679 --> 00:41:32,879 Speaker 3: over something and even afterwards not quite getting an apology. 722 00:41:32,999 --> 00:41:34,839 Speaker 3: It's kind of the same thing where it's a sorry, 723 00:41:34,839 --> 00:41:37,959 Speaker 3: but it's not really a deep apology about what happened 724 00:41:37,999 --> 00:41:39,439 Speaker 3: and what went wrong. 725 00:41:39,959 --> 00:41:45,119 Speaker 4: I'm just noticing how you minimize his anger. You said, well, 726 00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:48,359 Speaker 4: I kind of avoided him when I was younger because 727 00:41:48,359 --> 00:41:50,639 Speaker 4: he had a little bit of a temper. You know, 728 00:41:50,719 --> 00:41:54,319 Speaker 4: a temper from an adult when you're young and small 729 00:41:54,599 --> 00:42:00,239 Speaker 4: is incredibly scary, very frightening to see an adult with 730 00:42:00,399 --> 00:42:05,039 Speaker 4: that big kind of rage, even if other times he's 731 00:42:05,159 --> 00:42:08,519 Speaker 4: very loving and kind. I just want you to notice 732 00:42:08,559 --> 00:42:12,679 Speaker 4: how much you minimize the experiences that happened to you 733 00:42:13,439 --> 00:42:18,319 Speaker 4: that elicit some kind of emotion in you, like fear 734 00:42:18,839 --> 00:42:24,159 Speaker 4: or sadness, or even your own anger at your boyfriend 735 00:42:24,159 --> 00:42:26,599 Speaker 4: for cheating, or at your father for being angry with you. 736 00:42:27,279 --> 00:42:31,279 Speaker 4: These external things get minimized, and then you don't allow 737 00:42:31,319 --> 00:42:36,479 Speaker 4: yourself to feel your feelings because you're not really acknowledging 738 00:42:36,559 --> 00:42:38,439 Speaker 4: how these things are affecting you. 739 00:42:40,119 --> 00:42:43,759 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's interesting. A friend actually pointed that out to 740 00:42:43,799 --> 00:42:47,079 Speaker 3: me not too long ago, where they said, you know, you, 741 00:42:48,319 --> 00:42:52,119 Speaker 3: even when you're telling somebody about something bad that happened, 742 00:42:52,199 --> 00:42:55,559 Speaker 3: you always kind of give a little clause at the 743 00:42:55,559 --> 00:42:58,479 Speaker 3: beginning at the end, where for example, with my ex, 744 00:42:58,519 --> 00:43:01,439 Speaker 3: I would say, you know, I wasn't a perfect boyfriend either, 745 00:43:01,599 --> 00:43:04,919 Speaker 3: so obviously I didn't do anything to the same level 746 00:43:04,999 --> 00:43:06,919 Speaker 3: was as you did, but there would always be some 747 00:43:06,999 --> 00:43:11,399 Speaker 3: kind of bookended by these these things about myself. 748 00:43:12,559 --> 00:43:16,759 Speaker 2: You mentioned in your letter an incident with your mom's 749 00:43:16,759 --> 00:43:19,439 Speaker 2: wedding ring, and that was a big dispute with your 750 00:43:19,519 --> 00:43:23,079 Speaker 2: dad who that would be left for. Can you tell 751 00:43:23,119 --> 00:43:24,279 Speaker 2: us about what happened there? 752 00:43:25,479 --> 00:43:29,199 Speaker 3: Yeah, it was all quite dramatic. My elder sister she 753 00:43:29,479 --> 00:43:33,119 Speaker 3: when she got married, my dad decided to give her 754 00:43:33,119 --> 00:43:35,439 Speaker 3: the wedding ring, and my brother in law at the 755 00:43:35,479 --> 00:43:37,879 Speaker 3: time was very gracious. He came to me and my 756 00:43:37,919 --> 00:43:40,999 Speaker 3: other sister and asked if we felt okay with the 757 00:43:41,119 --> 00:43:45,039 Speaker 3: ring going towards my elder sister. I was totally fine 758 00:43:45,039 --> 00:43:47,159 Speaker 3: with it. I felt very happy that it would go 759 00:43:47,239 --> 00:43:49,039 Speaker 3: to her and she was going to start this family 760 00:43:49,079 --> 00:43:52,119 Speaker 3: and it was going to be great. But a few 761 00:43:52,159 --> 00:43:56,119 Speaker 3: weeks later I got an email from my auntie and 762 00:43:56,159 --> 00:43:57,919 Speaker 3: she was the one who had been taking care of 763 00:43:57,959 --> 00:44:02,199 Speaker 3: the ring, and the email was worded in such a 764 00:44:02,199 --> 00:44:04,919 Speaker 3: way that made me question why she was sending this email, 765 00:44:05,439 --> 00:44:08,639 Speaker 3: and she asked me if I was sure that I 766 00:44:08,839 --> 00:44:13,439 Speaker 3: was okay with the ring going to my sister, and 767 00:44:14,479 --> 00:44:16,799 Speaker 3: I said, of course, why would I have a problem, 768 00:44:17,319 --> 00:44:20,399 Speaker 3: and she told me, well, actually, your mom asked me 769 00:44:20,519 --> 00:44:22,719 Speaker 3: to keep the ring for you for when you were 770 00:44:22,759 --> 00:44:24,879 Speaker 3: ready to get married. The ring was kept in the 771 00:44:24,959 --> 00:44:27,199 Speaker 3: photo frame of a picture of me and my mom. 772 00:44:27,879 --> 00:44:30,519 Speaker 3: I started to question a lot of things as well, 773 00:44:30,559 --> 00:44:32,679 Speaker 3: like it makes sense that it went to my auntie 774 00:44:32,759 --> 00:44:36,079 Speaker 3: rather than my dad because he's so disorganized and you know, 775 00:44:36,439 --> 00:44:40,999 Speaker 3: has a terrible memory. And a friend pointed out as 776 00:44:40,999 --> 00:44:43,639 Speaker 3: well that actually, it kind of makes sense that you'd 777 00:44:43,719 --> 00:44:46,119 Speaker 3: leave it to the boy in the family because they 778 00:44:46,159 --> 00:44:49,559 Speaker 3: would probably use it to propose. So I decided, with 779 00:44:49,719 --> 00:44:51,999 Speaker 3: no intention of trying to get the ring at all, 780 00:44:52,879 --> 00:44:57,999 Speaker 3: to talk to my dad about it. And I started 781 00:44:58,039 --> 00:45:02,399 Speaker 3: the conversation by saying, first of all, that this has 782 00:45:02,479 --> 00:45:04,439 Speaker 3: nothing to do with like the thing, like I don't 783 00:45:04,479 --> 00:45:07,359 Speaker 3: want to get anything from this. But also it was 784 00:45:07,399 --> 00:45:10,039 Speaker 3: super important that there were no arguments in the family 785 00:45:10,279 --> 00:45:14,399 Speaker 3: about this, and he agreed to that. And when I 786 00:45:14,439 --> 00:45:16,679 Speaker 3: started to tell him what my auntie had told me, 787 00:45:17,279 --> 00:45:20,719 Speaker 3: he just immediately shut it down. He said, no, there 788 00:45:20,759 --> 00:45:22,879 Speaker 3: was no way that my mom would have left me 789 00:45:22,919 --> 00:45:26,319 Speaker 3: the ring and that if I was so desperate for 790 00:45:26,319 --> 00:45:28,599 Speaker 3: a ring, that I could have his wedding ring after 791 00:45:28,639 --> 00:45:31,479 Speaker 3: he died. And at that point I just I think 792 00:45:31,519 --> 00:45:34,159 Speaker 3: I just hung up the phone and he didn't keep 793 00:45:34,159 --> 00:45:35,999 Speaker 3: the promise. He brought it up with my auntie and 794 00:45:36,039 --> 00:45:39,799 Speaker 3: they had a falling out over it as well. Luckily 795 00:45:40,999 --> 00:45:42,759 Speaker 3: on good terms now, but I think at the time 796 00:45:42,799 --> 00:45:43,639 Speaker 3: it was quite heated. 797 00:45:44,159 --> 00:45:50,039 Speaker 2: There was something so moving to hear that your mom 798 00:45:51,039 --> 00:45:55,159 Speaker 2: thought so much about it that she left it for you, 799 00:45:55,439 --> 00:45:58,479 Speaker 2: with this picture of her and you together, gave it 800 00:45:58,519 --> 00:46:01,559 Speaker 2: to her sister, knowing her husband was disorganized for the 801 00:46:01,559 --> 00:46:04,719 Speaker 2: one day, years in the future, years and years in 802 00:46:04,759 --> 00:46:08,039 Speaker 2: the future. From where she was. You might want to propose, 803 00:46:08,079 --> 00:46:11,839 Speaker 2: and you might want the ring. What was it like 804 00:46:11,879 --> 00:46:14,359 Speaker 2: for you to find out that she had given such 805 00:46:14,479 --> 00:46:17,279 Speaker 2: thought to it, that she had asked to do, that 806 00:46:17,759 --> 00:46:20,039 Speaker 2: your aunt had kept it for so many years? What 807 00:46:20,159 --> 00:46:21,359 Speaker 2: was that like to hear that? 808 00:46:22,999 --> 00:46:26,639 Speaker 3: It was such a huge shock that nobody had ever 809 00:46:26,999 --> 00:46:31,959 Speaker 3: mentioned this to me. And on some level it felt 810 00:46:32,919 --> 00:46:36,399 Speaker 3: like I had communicated with my mom all this time 811 00:46:36,439 --> 00:46:39,959 Speaker 3: after she had passed away. It felt like she had 812 00:46:39,959 --> 00:46:43,359 Speaker 3: sent me a message. I think I spent a long 813 00:46:43,359 --> 00:46:46,759 Speaker 3: time just crying because it really did feel like after 814 00:46:46,799 --> 00:46:50,359 Speaker 3: all that time, we still had that special connection that 815 00:46:50,999 --> 00:46:53,359 Speaker 3: I had when I was a kid, and that she 816 00:46:53,519 --> 00:46:57,639 Speaker 3: was thinking about me so far ahead and thinking about 817 00:46:57,639 --> 00:46:59,319 Speaker 3: all these things that I would do in my life. 818 00:47:01,439 --> 00:47:05,759 Speaker 3: So yeah, it was incredibly meaningful. But then again, on 819 00:47:05,799 --> 00:47:08,479 Speaker 3: the other hand, it felt like, well, is this real 820 00:47:08,559 --> 00:47:11,599 Speaker 3: like because apparently is not. According to my dad. 821 00:47:12,479 --> 00:47:16,639 Speaker 4: It sounds like the experience that you have repeatedly with 822 00:47:16,639 --> 00:47:18,839 Speaker 4: people when you confront them with something that you know 823 00:47:19,679 --> 00:47:23,039 Speaker 4: and they tell you that that's not what's happening. So 824 00:47:23,119 --> 00:47:26,959 Speaker 4: you say, hey, you going on holiday. This doesn't sound right. Oh, no, 825 00:47:27,319 --> 00:47:32,159 Speaker 4: you're being paranoid. So I think that you do know 826 00:47:32,399 --> 00:47:37,039 Speaker 4: a lot, but you've had this experience repeatedly of being 827 00:47:37,039 --> 00:47:40,999 Speaker 4: told that what you know is not true, and that 828 00:47:41,039 --> 00:47:44,399 Speaker 4: can be incredibly confusing and it can really get in 829 00:47:44,399 --> 00:47:48,359 Speaker 4: the way of trusting yourself. And I'm so glad to 830 00:47:48,399 --> 00:47:52,559 Speaker 4: hear that you were able to feel when you were 831 00:47:52,559 --> 00:47:54,999 Speaker 4: told that your mom had left this to you and 832 00:47:55,039 --> 00:47:57,999 Speaker 4: that beautiful story. I was tearing up hearing that part 833 00:47:58,039 --> 00:48:00,719 Speaker 4: about the photo and how you were nine years old 834 00:48:00,759 --> 00:48:03,839 Speaker 4: and she thought I can't be there for him. But 835 00:48:03,959 --> 00:48:07,279 Speaker 4: I'm going to connect with him in this way that 836 00:48:07,359 --> 00:48:09,119 Speaker 4: I have him in mind, and I want him to 837 00:48:09,199 --> 00:48:13,359 Speaker 4: know that I have him in mind. That's so lovely 838 00:48:14,039 --> 00:48:16,799 Speaker 4: and you were able to feel that, and then you 839 00:48:16,839 --> 00:48:19,159 Speaker 4: went to your father and he denied that those were 840 00:48:19,199 --> 00:48:22,799 Speaker 4: the facts. But what he couldn't deny was your experience. 841 00:48:23,439 --> 00:48:25,159 Speaker 4: And that's the part I want you to hold on to. 842 00:48:26,759 --> 00:48:30,239 Speaker 4: Nobody can take your experience away from you unless you 843 00:48:30,439 --> 00:48:33,399 Speaker 4: let that. And it sounds like in your relationships you 844 00:48:33,479 --> 00:48:36,719 Speaker 4: often let people take your experience away from you. I'm 845 00:48:36,719 --> 00:48:38,719 Speaker 4: feeling this, but no, I'm not going to feel this 846 00:48:38,799 --> 00:48:40,359 Speaker 4: because they're telling me this other thing. 847 00:48:43,199 --> 00:48:48,759 Speaker 3: Yeah, that sounds pretty right to me. It's in many 848 00:48:48,799 --> 00:48:51,439 Speaker 3: different aspects. I feel like I'm often being told that, no, 849 00:48:51,559 --> 00:48:55,039 Speaker 3: it's not that way, it's this way, And like you said, 850 00:48:55,039 --> 00:48:59,199 Speaker 3: it's very confusing and very disorientating, and it's hard to 851 00:48:59,199 --> 00:49:00,159 Speaker 3: know which way is up. 852 00:49:00,679 --> 00:49:03,679 Speaker 2: Are you dating now? Did you say are you still 853 00:49:03,759 --> 00:49:05,199 Speaker 2: on the showf with that? 854 00:49:06,599 --> 00:49:11,399 Speaker 3: I have a dating app, and you know, I talked 855 00:49:11,399 --> 00:49:14,639 Speaker 3: to people here and there, and on occasion I might 856 00:49:14,679 --> 00:49:17,479 Speaker 3: talk to somebody that I think, oh, this person's interesting, 857 00:49:18,719 --> 00:49:21,079 Speaker 3: and then when it gets to the point of Okay, 858 00:49:21,159 --> 00:49:26,919 Speaker 3: let's meet up. I generally make excuses. I just think like, oh, 859 00:49:26,959 --> 00:49:29,919 Speaker 3: I I just now, it's not a good time. There's 860 00:49:29,919 --> 00:49:33,199 Speaker 3: a lot going on, and it never gets to the 861 00:49:33,239 --> 00:49:34,959 Speaker 3: point where I go on a date. 862 00:49:36,279 --> 00:49:38,479 Speaker 4: I just go back to one thing with your aunt. 863 00:49:38,919 --> 00:49:42,759 Speaker 4: So when she told you this, you said, you've really 864 00:49:42,759 --> 00:49:46,399 Speaker 4: never talked about your mom's death with anyone. Was there 865 00:49:46,439 --> 00:49:49,599 Speaker 4: an opening there to talk with your aunt about your 866 00:49:49,639 --> 00:49:50,199 Speaker 4: mom's death? 867 00:49:52,759 --> 00:49:57,639 Speaker 3: You know, recently I did bring something up about my mom, 868 00:49:58,679 --> 00:50:01,639 Speaker 3: and for me, I felt like I had said a 869 00:50:01,639 --> 00:50:06,079 Speaker 3: little bit too much about how I felt growing up, 870 00:50:06,319 --> 00:50:08,279 Speaker 3: and this was all done by message, so it wasn't 871 00:50:08,319 --> 00:50:11,039 Speaker 3: a great medium to do it. And it wasn't until 872 00:50:11,079 --> 00:50:13,679 Speaker 3: the next day, I think she replied, saying like, oh that, 873 00:50:13,799 --> 00:50:15,439 Speaker 3: you know, you've given me a lot to think about, 874 00:50:15,799 --> 00:50:17,999 Speaker 3: you know, just talking about my experience as as a kid, 875 00:50:19,399 --> 00:50:22,999 Speaker 3: and that made it immediately made me feel like, oh, 876 00:50:22,999 --> 00:50:24,759 Speaker 3: I've shared too much. I shouldn't have said that. 877 00:50:24,999 --> 00:50:25,879 Speaker 2: What is it you said? 878 00:50:26,239 --> 00:50:29,919 Speaker 3: I think it was that our family would have benefited 879 00:50:29,919 --> 00:50:34,279 Speaker 3: from therapy like family therapy, that we never spoke about it, 880 00:50:34,319 --> 00:50:38,039 Speaker 3: and I understood that it was probably because we were 881 00:50:38,079 --> 00:50:41,279 Speaker 3: all in pain. I think I said, I don't think 882 00:50:41,279 --> 00:50:45,119 Speaker 3: it's a coincidence that I and actually my other sister 883 00:50:45,359 --> 00:50:48,759 Speaker 3: moved halfway across the world as soon as we could. 884 00:50:49,079 --> 00:50:52,759 Speaker 3: I think there was something going on with us that 885 00:50:52,759 --> 00:50:54,679 Speaker 3: that made us want to leave as quickly as we could. 886 00:50:55,079 --> 00:50:57,279 Speaker 2: And that's what your aunt said. You're giving me a 887 00:50:57,319 --> 00:51:00,039 Speaker 2: lot to think about because there's a bit of an 888 00:51:00,039 --> 00:51:03,319 Speaker 2: invitation in what you're saying to her to have a conversation. 889 00:51:03,999 --> 00:51:06,959 Speaker 3: It made me feel like I said just a little 890 00:51:06,999 --> 00:51:09,519 Speaker 3: bit too much, that perhaps I was saying that she 891 00:51:10,719 --> 00:51:13,679 Speaker 3: wasn't there enough for us as kids. I think maybe 892 00:51:13,719 --> 00:51:16,399 Speaker 3: she started to feel a little bit guilty that she 893 00:51:16,479 --> 00:51:21,639 Speaker 3: hadn't been there enough to support us. I might be wrong. 894 00:51:21,759 --> 00:51:24,159 Speaker 3: This is just coming from what I think, but it 895 00:51:25,679 --> 00:51:27,879 Speaker 3: made me feel like, Okay, this is not something I 896 00:51:27,919 --> 00:51:30,519 Speaker 3: can keep talking about with her. I didn't want to 897 00:51:30,799 --> 00:51:34,439 Speaker 3: make her feel any guilt or any burden. 898 00:51:35,039 --> 00:51:37,319 Speaker 4: So we're back to burden again. Guy had said that 899 00:51:37,639 --> 00:51:41,279 Speaker 4: your note was maybe an invitation, but I think that 900 00:51:41,519 --> 00:51:46,479 Speaker 4: she in her response, was offering you an invitation too. 901 00:51:46,679 --> 00:51:49,559 Speaker 4: She wasn't saying everybody did the best they could, or 902 00:51:49,599 --> 00:51:52,519 Speaker 4: she didn't not respond. She said, this has given me 903 00:51:52,559 --> 00:51:55,759 Speaker 4: a lot to think about, which is very open ended, 904 00:51:56,039 --> 00:51:59,119 Speaker 4: and it makes me feel like there could have been 905 00:51:59,119 --> 00:52:03,759 Speaker 4: a potential opening there. But then your younger feelings came 906 00:52:03,799 --> 00:52:07,559 Speaker 4: in of I don't want to be a burden, don't 907 00:52:07,599 --> 00:52:11,679 Speaker 4: be upset. Everybody did the best they could. However, you 908 00:52:11,879 --> 00:52:14,159 Speaker 4: justify it to yourself. You know, I don't want to 909 00:52:14,159 --> 00:52:18,119 Speaker 4: bring up with my boyfriends that they're cheating or lying 910 00:52:18,199 --> 00:52:22,879 Speaker 4: because I don't want to burden people with my emotional reaction. 911 00:52:24,359 --> 00:52:29,479 Speaker 4: That's really interesting to me how you interpret something very 912 00:52:29,479 --> 00:52:32,039 Speaker 4: differently from the way that I'm hearing it, not being 913 00:52:32,079 --> 00:52:36,359 Speaker 4: in your experience. You interpret it as, oh, I said 914 00:52:36,399 --> 00:52:38,919 Speaker 4: too much, I was a burden, she must feel accused. 915 00:52:39,239 --> 00:52:41,719 Speaker 4: You create all these stories around it. You just don't 916 00:52:41,719 --> 00:52:42,839 Speaker 4: know if those stories are there. 917 00:52:43,119 --> 00:52:47,599 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's interesting. I never thought of her response in 918 00:52:47,639 --> 00:52:51,359 Speaker 3: that light, and now you say it, it makes a 919 00:52:51,399 --> 00:52:53,919 Speaker 3: lot more sense that she was. It was more of 920 00:52:53,959 --> 00:52:57,039 Speaker 3: a positive. I think that she was one thing to 921 00:52:57,399 --> 00:52:59,159 Speaker 3: take some time to think about what I said. 922 00:52:59,399 --> 00:53:04,639 Speaker 2: The thing that stops you from having these conversations different 923 00:53:04,759 --> 00:53:07,759 Speaker 2: feelings of yes, my feelings would be a burden, or 924 00:53:07,799 --> 00:53:11,519 Speaker 2: the other person might not want to But any kind 925 00:53:11,519 --> 00:53:14,359 Speaker 2: of interpretation always leads to the same path of so 926 00:53:14,439 --> 00:53:17,039 Speaker 2: let's not have these kinds of conversations, and that's the 927 00:53:17,079 --> 00:53:20,079 Speaker 2: thing to pay attention to. And despite the evidence, all 928 00:53:20,199 --> 00:53:23,279 Speaker 2: roads lead to Okay, I won't have the conversation, I 929 00:53:23,319 --> 00:53:27,119 Speaker 2: won't date. I'll use the app, but basically not really. 930 00:53:27,279 --> 00:53:30,839 Speaker 2: You know, you're swiping and you're chatting, but you're not meeting. 931 00:53:31,279 --> 00:53:35,639 Speaker 2: There's again this big, big hesitancy to kind of engage 932 00:53:35,639 --> 00:53:37,959 Speaker 2: in the things that will evoke emotion. 933 00:53:38,919 --> 00:53:42,159 Speaker 3: Yeah, no, that's absolutely right. I totally see that. 934 00:53:48,079 --> 00:53:52,319 Speaker 2: So, Adam, we have some advice for you. We would 935 00:53:52,399 --> 00:53:56,879 Speaker 2: like you to this week email or text your sisters 936 00:53:57,039 --> 00:54:00,999 Speaker 2: and your dad and tell them that you've been thinking 937 00:54:01,399 --> 00:54:06,359 Speaker 2: about your mum a lot lately, and you know that 938 00:54:06,519 --> 00:54:10,439 Speaker 2: they think about her as well, and that you would 939 00:54:10,559 --> 00:54:14,479 Speaker 2: like it if on the next anniversary of her death, 940 00:54:14,879 --> 00:54:18,999 Speaker 2: you all got in a call and talked about her 941 00:54:19,119 --> 00:54:22,839 Speaker 2: a little bit, shared some memories of her that would 942 00:54:22,959 --> 00:54:25,399 Speaker 2: make you feel good and you would really like that. 943 00:54:25,799 --> 00:54:28,599 Speaker 2: The emphasis is that you would like that to happen. 944 00:54:28,639 --> 00:54:31,439 Speaker 2: You're owning that that's something that you want. Now, I'm 945 00:54:31,479 --> 00:54:33,919 Speaker 2: sure you're thinking, I don't know what kind of response 946 00:54:34,039 --> 00:54:37,679 Speaker 2: is I will get from them. Neither do we. But 947 00:54:38,279 --> 00:54:41,639 Speaker 2: the goal here is to represent how you feel, and 948 00:54:41,679 --> 00:54:43,439 Speaker 2: that is something that you would like. It is a 949 00:54:43,479 --> 00:54:46,759 Speaker 2: door you would like to open. So that's the first 950 00:54:46,799 --> 00:54:48,439 Speaker 2: part of the assignment. 951 00:54:49,039 --> 00:54:51,719 Speaker 4: And what's important about that, as guy was saying, is 952 00:54:51,759 --> 00:54:54,839 Speaker 4: that this isn't so much about whether they respond or 953 00:54:54,879 --> 00:54:56,639 Speaker 4: if they respond in a way that you would like. 954 00:54:57,199 --> 00:54:59,559 Speaker 4: It's that you are putting what you would like out 955 00:54:59,599 --> 00:55:02,839 Speaker 4: there so that you can exercise that muscle and get 956 00:55:02,919 --> 00:55:05,279 Speaker 4: used to doing that. And that leads us into the 957 00:55:05,279 --> 00:55:09,719 Speaker 4: second part of the advice, which is that what happened 958 00:55:09,759 --> 00:55:13,359 Speaker 4: with your aunt is that when she told you about 959 00:55:13,439 --> 00:55:17,719 Speaker 4: the wedding ring, it happened on text or on email. 960 00:55:17,839 --> 00:55:19,959 Speaker 4: It was not where she could see you. She does 961 00:55:20,039 --> 00:55:23,039 Speaker 4: not know that you broke down crying, you had this 962 00:55:23,879 --> 00:55:26,599 Speaker 4: really lovely feeling of being connected to your mom again. 963 00:55:27,759 --> 00:55:31,919 Speaker 4: And also we think you made some interpretations about her 964 00:55:31,999 --> 00:55:36,039 Speaker 4: response to your other text about being a burden. We 965 00:55:36,119 --> 00:55:39,599 Speaker 4: think it was sort of potentially an invitation, and so 966 00:55:39,639 --> 00:55:43,679 Speaker 4: we would like you to contact your aunt and say 967 00:55:43,719 --> 00:55:45,999 Speaker 4: to her, you know, when you told me about the 968 00:55:46,039 --> 00:55:49,879 Speaker 4: wedding ring, it moved me so much. It was so 969 00:55:50,159 --> 00:55:55,279 Speaker 4: nice to hear something about my mom and me from you. 970 00:55:55,959 --> 00:55:57,399 Speaker 4: And when I sent you that other text and you 971 00:55:57,439 --> 00:55:59,159 Speaker 4: said it was a lot to think about, I was 972 00:55:59,199 --> 00:56:03,599 Speaker 4: really glad that I could share that with you. And 973 00:56:03,679 --> 00:56:07,239 Speaker 4: now that I'm in my thirties and I don't have 974 00:56:07,599 --> 00:56:12,079 Speaker 4: memories of my mom past nine years old, it would 975 00:56:12,119 --> 00:56:14,279 Speaker 4: mean so much to me if maybe you could share 976 00:56:14,639 --> 00:56:17,999 Speaker 4: with me some parts of my mom that I either 977 00:56:18,039 --> 00:56:21,559 Speaker 4: don't remember or happened before I was born. I just 978 00:56:21,599 --> 00:56:24,359 Speaker 4: wanted to get to know her better. I would love 979 00:56:24,359 --> 00:56:26,439 Speaker 4: to hear stories about me and my mom when I 980 00:56:26,479 --> 00:56:29,679 Speaker 4: was little. What was my mom like as a little girl. 981 00:56:30,159 --> 00:56:33,039 Speaker 4: What are some funny stories that happened in her life. 982 00:56:33,759 --> 00:56:35,679 Speaker 4: If you could help me get to know her better, 983 00:56:35,719 --> 00:56:39,239 Speaker 4: that would mean so much to me. And see what 984 00:56:39,319 --> 00:56:41,519 Speaker 4: happens when you open the door that way with her. 985 00:56:44,439 --> 00:56:47,279 Speaker 2: So one last piece of advice, Adam, and that's about 986 00:56:47,279 --> 00:56:51,039 Speaker 2: your dating life. As we said, you need to restore 987 00:56:51,439 --> 00:56:54,999 Speaker 2: a sense of trust with yourself and restore that sense 988 00:56:54,999 --> 00:56:58,679 Speaker 2: of honesty with yourself, so you really listen to how 989 00:56:58,719 --> 00:57:02,879 Speaker 2: you feel and you don't marginalize it and push it aside. 990 00:57:02,919 --> 00:57:05,639 Speaker 2: And to that end, would like you to do two things. 991 00:57:06,039 --> 00:57:09,639 Speaker 2: Number one, we'd like you to write a pact with 992 00:57:09,719 --> 00:57:13,999 Speaker 2: yourself that you'll stick to from here on, with items 993 00:57:14,119 --> 00:57:18,599 Speaker 2: such as, since honesty is really important for me, and 994 00:57:18,639 --> 00:57:21,439 Speaker 2: I will let that person know whoever the next potential 995 00:57:21,439 --> 00:57:25,439 Speaker 2: boyfriend is that it is important to me. If I 996 00:57:25,479 --> 00:57:27,679 Speaker 2: catch them lying, I will let them know that that's 997 00:57:27,719 --> 00:57:30,879 Speaker 2: not something I can tolerate, such that if it happens again, 998 00:57:31,479 --> 00:57:34,159 Speaker 2: I will be out because I can't be in a 999 00:57:34,199 --> 00:57:37,119 Speaker 2: relationship where I'm worrying all the time that the person's 1000 00:57:37,199 --> 00:57:41,159 Speaker 2: not being honest with me. But the pact is one strike, 1001 00:57:41,639 --> 00:57:47,279 Speaker 2: and one strike too, they're out, and other items that 1002 00:57:47,359 --> 00:57:49,599 Speaker 2: you want to put there that you know that you've 1003 00:57:49,639 --> 00:57:51,639 Speaker 2: not done a good enough job in the past of 1004 00:57:51,999 --> 00:57:55,359 Speaker 2: sticking to what's true for you and what's important for you. 1005 00:57:56,039 --> 00:57:58,919 Speaker 2: It'll be easy for you to stick to a written 1006 00:57:58,999 --> 00:58:01,519 Speaker 2: pact that you should have in your pocket when you 1007 00:58:01,559 --> 00:58:05,159 Speaker 2: go on dates, just to remind you that this is 1008 00:58:05,159 --> 00:58:08,799 Speaker 2: something that you've promised yourself. And then this week you're 1009 00:58:08,839 --> 00:58:11,479 Speaker 2: on the app you've been chatting. We would like you 1010 00:58:11,599 --> 00:58:15,319 Speaker 2: to set up one date, and what we want you 1011 00:58:15,399 --> 00:58:19,279 Speaker 2: to note on that date is how it feels going 1012 00:58:19,319 --> 00:58:22,039 Speaker 2: in there with this new determination, this packed in your 1013 00:58:22,079 --> 00:58:25,679 Speaker 2: pocket that you are going to be operating very very differently, 1014 00:58:26,159 --> 00:58:28,439 Speaker 2: and that you're going to stay really close to your 1015 00:58:28,639 --> 00:58:32,279 Speaker 2: truth because your truth is I don't abide the lying 1016 00:58:32,359 --> 00:58:34,759 Speaker 2: and the cheating. I can't be in a relationship where 1017 00:58:34,759 --> 00:58:37,199 Speaker 2: I'm anxious all the time because the person isn't honest. 1018 00:58:37,479 --> 00:58:39,879 Speaker 2: I've tasted what it's like to be with somebody I 1019 00:58:39,919 --> 00:58:42,959 Speaker 2: can trust. That's what I'm looking for. And with that 1020 00:58:43,119 --> 00:58:46,279 Speaker 2: new idea in mind, would like you to note what 1021 00:58:46,319 --> 00:58:48,439 Speaker 2: your experience of that first date is. 1022 00:58:49,479 --> 00:58:53,119 Speaker 4: So this is a contract between you and you, not 1023 00:58:53,239 --> 00:58:56,599 Speaker 4: between you and the other person. It's between you and you. 1024 00:58:56,599 --> 00:58:59,319 Speaker 4: You can't control whether other people are going to betray you, 1025 00:58:59,759 --> 00:59:03,119 Speaker 4: but if you stop betraying yourself, we think you're going 1026 00:59:03,159 --> 00:59:07,199 Speaker 4: to pick better partners as a result of that. Yeah. 1027 00:59:07,439 --> 00:59:09,799 Speaker 3: Now, I like that idea of making a pack myself 1028 00:59:09,839 --> 00:59:11,519 Speaker 3: and writing it out as thought. 1029 00:59:11,799 --> 00:59:14,999 Speaker 2: And once you do that, you'll know one thing. Somebody's 1030 00:59:15,039 --> 00:59:17,759 Speaker 2: gonna lie to me. They'll only do it once. Somebody's 1031 00:59:17,759 --> 00:59:21,039 Speaker 2: gonna cheat, They'll only do it once because I won't 1032 00:59:21,079 --> 00:59:24,999 Speaker 2: be there for the second time. So that makes it 1033 00:59:24,999 --> 00:59:28,879 Speaker 2: feel much safer. Yeah, because it can't keep happening. You 1034 00:59:28,919 --> 00:59:29,519 Speaker 2: won't let it. 1035 00:59:30,159 --> 00:59:32,159 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's an interesting way. I've never thought of it 1036 00:59:32,239 --> 00:59:34,399 Speaker 3: like that. It can't happen more than once if I 1037 00:59:34,479 --> 00:59:38,519 Speaker 3: said this this boundary or this this pact. Yeah, no, 1038 00:59:38,639 --> 00:59:41,839 Speaker 3: I like that idea. Thank you. I'm nervous but excited 1039 00:59:41,839 --> 00:59:44,159 Speaker 3: at the same time that thank you for your advice. 1040 00:59:44,319 --> 00:59:45,119 Speaker 3: I appreciate it. 1041 00:59:45,599 --> 00:59:46,159 Speaker 2: You're welcome. 1042 00:59:53,319 --> 00:59:56,959 Speaker 4: You know, often as therapist, we hear something in a 1043 00:59:56,999 --> 01:00:00,359 Speaker 4: first session that becomes sort of the touchstone of what 1044 01:00:00,599 --> 01:00:04,519 Speaker 4: keeps getting that person stuck. And what stands out to 1045 01:00:04,559 --> 01:00:08,239 Speaker 4: me was when he was talking about sitting at his 1046 01:00:08,359 --> 01:00:11,519 Speaker 4: mother's deathbed and her saying to the children, please don't 1047 01:00:11,519 --> 01:00:14,879 Speaker 4: be upset. And as a parent myself, I understand so 1048 01:00:15,039 --> 01:00:17,279 Speaker 4: much of the pain his mother must have been in 1049 01:00:17,359 --> 01:00:19,959 Speaker 4: and not wanting the kids to feel that. But the 1050 01:00:20,039 --> 01:00:24,759 Speaker 4: message and the legacy of that moment was don't be 1051 01:00:24,839 --> 01:00:28,079 Speaker 4: a burden, don't be upset. You're feeling these huge feelings, 1052 01:00:28,159 --> 01:00:32,319 Speaker 4: but it's not okay to feel that, And that has 1053 01:00:32,519 --> 01:00:35,719 Speaker 4: been the narrative in the family even after the mother died, 1054 01:00:35,919 --> 01:00:39,719 Speaker 4: where they just did not talk about the immense pain 1055 01:00:40,239 --> 01:00:43,079 Speaker 4: that they were all feeling in different ways. When there's 1056 01:00:43,119 --> 01:00:46,199 Speaker 4: a death in a family, everybody in the family experiences 1057 01:00:46,239 --> 01:00:49,039 Speaker 4: it in a different way from their own perspectives and 1058 01:00:49,079 --> 01:00:52,799 Speaker 4: their own pain, and nobody felt that it was okay 1059 01:00:53,479 --> 01:00:56,359 Speaker 4: to talk about it, and that is what he has 1060 01:00:56,399 --> 01:00:59,439 Speaker 4: inherited in terms of his adult relationships. 1061 01:01:00,039 --> 01:01:02,759 Speaker 2: You're absolutely right. And the other snapshot that I have 1062 01:01:03,159 --> 01:01:06,279 Speaker 2: is that scene after she dies, with all four of 1063 01:01:06,319 --> 01:01:10,639 Speaker 2: them sitting in a room, each crying alone. Is the 1064 01:01:10,719 --> 01:01:13,319 Speaker 2: other kind of set up there in that family. Of 1065 01:01:13,359 --> 01:01:15,759 Speaker 2: whatever feelings you have, it's not only we don't talk 1066 01:01:15,759 --> 01:01:20,079 Speaker 2: about them, cry alone. But I'm heartened because he did 1067 01:01:20,119 --> 01:01:23,999 Speaker 2: seem quite interested in breaking some of these molds and 1068 01:01:24,039 --> 01:01:26,519 Speaker 2: having some of these conversations or trying to at least 1069 01:01:26,519 --> 01:01:28,719 Speaker 2: be beyond, and he will see what happens with the family. 1070 01:01:29,559 --> 01:01:33,479 Speaker 2: It feels risky and dangerous to share these feelings when 1071 01:01:33,519 --> 01:01:37,079 Speaker 2: you were so early on taught not to. 1072 01:01:38,799 --> 01:01:42,479 Speaker 4: Right. Not only to not share them, but he came 1073 01:01:42,519 --> 01:01:45,199 Speaker 4: to a place where he doesn't even trust that like 1074 01:01:45,239 --> 01:01:48,519 Speaker 4: when his mom, should I feel upset with his boyfriends? 1075 01:01:49,519 --> 01:01:52,039 Speaker 4: Should I be upset about this little thing? Like he 1076 01:01:52,079 --> 01:01:55,719 Speaker 4: didn't tell me where he was. And it takes going 1077 01:01:55,759 --> 01:01:58,799 Speaker 4: on holiday with other men for it to become something 1078 01:01:58,839 --> 01:02:02,799 Speaker 4: that he can acknowledge is maybe not okay. It's not 1079 01:02:02,839 --> 01:02:04,679 Speaker 4: only not being able to feel the feelings, but not 1080 01:02:04,719 --> 01:02:08,079 Speaker 4: being able to trust that the feelings you're feeling are valid. 1081 01:02:08,839 --> 01:02:10,879 Speaker 4: One thing I was so moved by was that he 1082 01:02:10,919 --> 01:02:13,239 Speaker 4: said he had never really talked about any of this 1083 01:02:13,799 --> 01:02:19,479 Speaker 4: with other people, and he was so open and willing 1084 01:02:20,119 --> 01:02:22,799 Speaker 4: to share this with us, and I felt so honored 1085 01:02:23,119 --> 01:02:25,999 Speaker 4: by this experience. I think we always feel honored that 1086 01:02:26,039 --> 01:02:28,159 Speaker 4: people share their lives with us, but this one in 1087 01:02:28,199 --> 01:02:29,879 Speaker 4: particular really really moved me. 1088 01:02:35,719 --> 01:02:38,879 Speaker 2: You're listening to dea therapists. We'll be back after a 1089 01:02:38,919 --> 01:02:53,119 Speaker 2: short break. So we heard from Adam and we gave 1090 01:02:53,159 --> 01:02:55,079 Speaker 2: him a lot to do. Let's see how that went. 1091 01:02:55,759 --> 01:02:59,239 Speaker 3: Hi Guy, Hi Laurie. So it's been a week and 1092 01:02:59,399 --> 01:03:02,279 Speaker 3: I wanted to let you know what's happened since you 1093 01:03:02,359 --> 01:03:06,279 Speaker 3: gave me your advice. The first piece was to reach 1094 01:03:06,319 --> 01:03:09,119 Speaker 3: out to my family and to tell them I'd like 1095 01:03:09,159 --> 01:03:13,279 Speaker 3: to do a call on my mom's death anniversary. I 1096 01:03:13,319 --> 01:03:15,959 Speaker 3: actually changed it a little bit to my mom's birthday 1097 01:03:16,039 --> 01:03:20,559 Speaker 3: because that's just coming up much sooner. My family were 1098 01:03:20,599 --> 01:03:24,959 Speaker 3: a little slow to respond, but everybody did eventually reply, 1099 01:03:25,519 --> 01:03:27,799 Speaker 3: and they all said how much they loved the idea 1100 01:03:28,439 --> 01:03:30,959 Speaker 3: of taking some time to talk about memories that we 1101 01:03:31,079 --> 01:03:33,439 Speaker 3: have with my mom and share some stories, so that 1102 01:03:33,559 --> 01:03:37,319 Speaker 3: was really great. Secondly, I got in touch with my aunt. 1103 01:03:38,199 --> 01:03:40,799 Speaker 3: I explained to her that I wanted to try to 1104 01:03:40,839 --> 01:03:43,719 Speaker 3: connect more with the family on the topic of my mom, 1105 01:03:44,159 --> 01:03:47,559 Speaker 3: and she was really supportive of that. It does still 1106 01:03:47,599 --> 01:03:52,359 Speaker 3: feel a little uncomfortable to have these discussions, but I think, 1107 01:03:52,439 --> 01:03:54,759 Speaker 3: as with anything, the more I do it, then the 1108 01:03:54,759 --> 01:03:57,519 Speaker 3: more I'll get better at it. I think at first 1109 01:03:57,519 --> 01:04:00,239 Speaker 3: it will probably be me trying to connect us all 1110 01:04:00,279 --> 01:04:03,319 Speaker 3: in this way, but I've realized in essence, I feel 1111 01:04:03,359 --> 01:04:05,479 Speaker 3: like this is a kind of way to keep my 1112 01:04:05,599 --> 01:04:09,719 Speaker 3: mom alive by sharing our memories and our stories about her. 1113 01:04:10,279 --> 01:04:13,319 Speaker 3: Even though that she's gone, having that closeness to her 1114 01:04:13,439 --> 01:04:16,479 Speaker 3: is still very important to me, so thank you for that. 1115 01:04:18,599 --> 01:04:21,439 Speaker 3: My next assignment was to write a pact with myself, 1116 01:04:22,199 --> 01:04:24,879 Speaker 3: and this was really interesting because I actually had to 1117 01:04:24,919 --> 01:04:27,919 Speaker 3: stop and consider what it is that I do and 1118 01:04:28,039 --> 01:04:32,279 Speaker 3: don't want from a relationship, and writing it down made 1119 01:04:32,319 --> 01:04:35,199 Speaker 3: it feel much more tangible rather than just some vague 1120 01:04:35,199 --> 01:04:38,559 Speaker 3: ideas floating around in my head. It gave me some 1121 01:04:38,679 --> 01:04:41,439 Speaker 3: confidence knowing that I can rely on this pack to 1122 01:04:41,479 --> 01:04:43,639 Speaker 3: come back to whenever I feel like something might be 1123 01:04:43,679 --> 01:04:48,079 Speaker 3: going wrong, and hearing you both talk about me being 1124 01:04:48,119 --> 01:04:51,959 Speaker 3: honest with myself also made me realize that I need 1125 01:04:51,999 --> 01:04:55,159 Speaker 3: to treat this promise to myself in the same way 1126 01:04:55,199 --> 01:04:57,559 Speaker 3: that I would treat a promise to a friend too. 1127 01:04:59,439 --> 01:05:02,559 Speaker 3: And finally, you told me to go on a date, 1128 01:05:03,279 --> 01:05:06,039 Speaker 3: and I have to be honest. I was really finding 1129 01:05:06,079 --> 01:05:08,959 Speaker 3: any excuse not to do this, but I did, in 1130 01:05:08,999 --> 01:05:13,079 Speaker 3: fact on a date and it was really nice. And 1131 01:05:13,119 --> 01:05:16,399 Speaker 3: also having made that pact with myself, I felt like 1132 01:05:16,439 --> 01:05:19,639 Speaker 3: I was going into it much better equipped in the 1133 01:05:19,679 --> 01:05:22,999 Speaker 3: case of red flag starting to pop up. So it's 1134 01:05:23,039 --> 01:05:26,399 Speaker 3: still a work in progress, but I feel like I'm 1135 01:05:26,439 --> 01:05:30,359 Speaker 3: pointing in the right direction. So thank you both so 1136 01:05:30,479 --> 01:05:32,959 Speaker 3: much for listening to me. I really appreciate all of 1137 01:05:32,999 --> 01:05:35,959 Speaker 3: your insights and all of your advice as well. Thank 1138 01:05:35,999 --> 01:05:41,559 Speaker 3: you well. 1139 01:05:41,599 --> 01:05:44,079 Speaker 4: I am so pleased for Adam, and I think one 1140 01:05:44,159 --> 01:05:45,999 Speaker 4: of the things that came out of this was being 1141 01:05:46,039 --> 01:05:50,599 Speaker 4: able to connect some of these earlier experiences of loss 1142 01:05:51,199 --> 01:05:55,159 Speaker 4: with what was happening in his relationships now and the 1143 01:05:55,239 --> 01:05:59,599 Speaker 4: earlier experience of not talking about things, and how that 1144 01:05:59,919 --> 01:06:03,439 Speaker 4: translated to what he was doing in his relationships now 1145 01:06:03,439 --> 01:06:06,079 Speaker 4: and not being able to trust himself if something felt off. 1146 01:06:07,599 --> 01:06:10,839 Speaker 2: I agreed because I think the theme with Adam was avoidance. 1147 01:06:10,959 --> 01:06:15,279 Speaker 2: It was avoidance talking about his mom, it was avoidance dating. 1148 01:06:15,719 --> 01:06:19,479 Speaker 2: And I think that the push we gave him really 1149 01:06:19,519 --> 01:06:22,439 Speaker 2: worked because he sounds less avoidant, even though he said 1150 01:06:22,479 --> 01:06:24,359 Speaker 2: he did try to avoid having the date, but he 1151 01:06:24,399 --> 01:06:28,719 Speaker 2: had a good experience. He sounds like he opened up 1152 01:06:28,759 --> 01:06:32,519 Speaker 2: a conduit in his family to talk about his mom 1153 01:06:32,559 --> 01:06:37,319 Speaker 2: again that I think everyone will end up benefiting from eventually. 1154 01:06:37,599 --> 01:06:39,719 Speaker 1: And I think the beauty of what he did was 1155 01:06:39,919 --> 01:06:43,719 Speaker 1: seeing that people are really receptive. That he didn't know 1156 01:06:43,799 --> 01:06:45,999 Speaker 1: how they were going to reply, and we always said 1157 01:06:46,039 --> 01:06:48,639 Speaker 1: to him, it doesn't matter how they respond. What matters 1158 01:06:48,679 --> 01:06:51,359 Speaker 1: is that you do it. But then as a bonus 1159 01:06:51,439 --> 01:06:54,959 Speaker 1: to see and they were very receptive. And sometimes it 1160 01:06:54,999 --> 01:06:58,199 Speaker 1: takes one person in the family to be that person 1161 01:06:58,599 --> 01:07:02,039 Speaker 1: to start having conversations in a way that the rest 1162 01:07:02,039 --> 01:07:04,839 Speaker 1: of the family wasn't able to do. And I think 1163 01:07:04,839 --> 01:07:07,239 Speaker 1: the takeaway here that I think many people can relate 1164 01:07:07,279 --> 01:07:11,919 Speaker 1: to is that when you of av things, it creates 1165 01:07:12,119 --> 01:07:15,479 Speaker 1: so many problems. He wasn't just avoiding things with his 1166 01:07:15,519 --> 01:07:17,799 Speaker 1: family members and with the people that he was in 1167 01:07:17,839 --> 01:07:23,079 Speaker 1: relationships with. He was avoiding facing these things himself. And 1168 01:07:23,199 --> 01:07:27,679 Speaker 1: when we stop avoiding things with ourselves, this whole new 1169 01:07:27,719 --> 01:07:34,039 Speaker 1: world opens up. Next week, a couple struggles with a 1170 01:07:34,119 --> 01:07:38,199 Speaker 1: toxic ex spouse who's not happy about their upcoming marriage. 1171 01:07:38,239 --> 01:07:42,239 Speaker 5: My ex wife is not happy about the fact that 1172 01:07:42,359 --> 01:07:46,439 Speaker 5: I am engaged to anyone, and she's not happy that 1173 01:07:46,479 --> 01:07:48,959 Speaker 5: I'm engaged in particular to Lily. 1174 01:07:49,319 --> 01:07:52,399 Speaker 1: If you're enjoying our podcast, don't forget to subscribe for 1175 01:07:52,479 --> 01:07:55,359 Speaker 1: free so that you don't miss any episodes, and please 1176 01:07:55,399 --> 01:07:58,159 Speaker 1: help support Dear Therapists by telling your friends about it 1177 01:07:58,279 --> 01:08:01,599 Speaker 1: and leaving a review on Apple Podcasts. Your reviews really 1178 01:08:01,599 --> 01:08:02,839 Speaker 1: help people to find the show. 1179 01:08:03,439 --> 01:08:05,639 Speaker 2: If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us, 1180 01:08:05,959 --> 01:08:10,999 Speaker 2: email us at Laurie and Guy at iHeartMedia dot com. 1181 01:08:11,119 --> 01:08:14,879 Speaker 2: Our executive producer is Noel Brown. We are produced and 1182 01:08:15,039 --> 01:08:19,399 Speaker 2: edited by Josh Fisher, additional editing support by Helena Rosen, 1183 01:08:19,839 --> 01:08:24,479 Speaker 2: John Washington and Zachary Fisher. Our interns are Ben Bernstein, 1184 01:08:24,839 --> 01:08:28,919 Speaker 2: Emily Gutierrez and Silver Lifton, and special thanks to our 1185 01:08:28,999 --> 01:08:32,799 Speaker 2: podcast fairy Godmother Katie Curic. We can't wait to see 1186 01:08:32,799 --> 01:08:36,439 Speaker 2: you at our next session. Deotherapist is a production of 1187 01:08:36,519 --> 01:08:37,319 Speaker 2: iHeartRadio 1188 01:08:42,239 --> 01:08:42,919 Speaker 3: Fisherfood