1 00:00:14,036 --> 00:00:22,396 Speaker 1: Push it. This is probably the first episode I'm actually 2 00:00:22,396 --> 00:00:25,156 Speaker 1: nervous about. I'm not nervous in the shaky sense. I'm 3 00:00:25,196 --> 00:00:29,716 Speaker 1: nervous about like striking the right balance and how you know, 4 00:00:29,756 --> 00:00:35,036 Speaker 1: we talk about Obama and this book, and so I'm 5 00:00:35,076 --> 00:00:37,156 Speaker 1: here for you. I'm gonna I'm gonna be a gentle 6 00:00:37,556 --> 00:00:40,756 Speaker 1: a gentle lead. I'm gonna I'm gonna protect you. We're 7 00:00:40,756 --> 00:00:46,396 Speaker 1: gonna get through this together. Okay, I won't let you 8 00:00:46,436 --> 00:00:50,556 Speaker 1: get hurt. All right, Yeah, well that remains to be seen. 9 00:00:55,436 --> 00:00:58,876 Speaker 1: I'm Khalil Dubron Muhammad and I'm Ben Austin. We're two 10 00:00:58,916 --> 00:01:03,236 Speaker 1: best friends, one black, one white. I'm a historian and 11 00:01:03,316 --> 00:01:05,716 Speaker 1: I'm a journalist. And this is some of my best 12 00:01:05,756 --> 00:01:09,116 Speaker 1: friends are in this show. We wrestle with the challenge 13 00:01:09,556 --> 00:01:13,916 Speaker 1: and the absurdities of a deeply divided and unequal country. 14 00:01:14,356 --> 00:01:18,236 Speaker 1: And today's show, we're going to talk about two really 15 00:01:18,276 --> 00:01:20,876 Speaker 1: incredible people that we have already been talking about for 16 00:01:20,876 --> 00:01:25,076 Speaker 1: a long time. That's right, Barack and Michelle Obama. You know, 17 00:01:25,076 --> 00:01:27,676 Speaker 1: they were actually here in Chicago just the other day, 18 00:01:27,876 --> 00:01:30,636 Speaker 1: down the block from where I'm sitting right now, breaking 19 00:01:30,756 --> 00:01:34,636 Speaker 1: ground on the Obama Presidential Library and we have been 20 00:01:34,916 --> 00:01:39,236 Speaker 1: eager to dig into their biographies memoirs. There are autobiographies. Yeah, 21 00:01:39,236 --> 00:01:43,436 Speaker 1: we're gonna talk about Michelle and Barack Obama's books. Yeah, 22 00:01:43,436 --> 00:01:47,276 Speaker 1: I mean like and the titles like Becoming, Becoming what 23 00:01:47,556 --> 00:01:51,596 Speaker 1: that's fascinating and then promised Brama's Land. Yes, so we're 24 00:01:51,596 --> 00:01:54,316 Speaker 1: gonna look at these books to look at how they 25 00:01:54,356 --> 00:01:57,796 Speaker 1: talk about race and racism because we've been trying to 26 00:01:57,836 --> 00:02:01,076 Speaker 1: figure them out for quite a while. Let's do this 27 00:02:01,236 --> 00:02:20,076 Speaker 1: book club chapter one, chapter one, yeah, something. All right. 28 00:02:20,116 --> 00:02:22,236 Speaker 1: So look, before we really get into this episode, I 29 00:02:22,276 --> 00:02:25,076 Speaker 1: have to make it crystal clear. Look, Barack Obama is 30 00:02:25,196 --> 00:02:27,916 Speaker 1: adored and loved by many. I love him in so 31 00:02:27,956 --> 00:02:31,156 Speaker 1: many ways, but he's a complicated figure, and so I just, 32 00:02:31,516 --> 00:02:34,596 Speaker 1: you know, needed to be clear that people like my 33 00:02:34,636 --> 00:02:38,396 Speaker 1: wife Stephanie, are like, look, this is my first black president, period. 34 00:02:38,556 --> 00:02:43,076 Speaker 1: End of story. These are Obama's fireworks, whether they are 35 00:02:43,276 --> 00:02:47,716 Speaker 1: or not, there are for us. That was actually from 36 00:02:47,716 --> 00:02:49,996 Speaker 1: when we were on Martha's vineyard this summer and we 37 00:02:50,076 --> 00:02:52,116 Speaker 1: got out of our car because there were fireworks over 38 00:02:52,156 --> 00:02:55,236 Speaker 1: the water and I had to press record on my phone. 39 00:02:55,516 --> 00:02:58,436 Speaker 1: It's right. People thought that the fireworks might be for 40 00:02:59,076 --> 00:03:02,716 Speaker 1: Barack Obama's birthday. This is a whole This is way 41 00:03:02,756 --> 00:03:08,676 Speaker 1: too many fireworks. I'm just saying, this is Obama fireworks 42 00:03:09,876 --> 00:03:14,076 Speaker 1: and I don't care. Is too conservative not this is 43 00:03:14,116 --> 00:03:22,196 Speaker 1: a black You just celebrate yourself some Obama. That's right. 44 00:03:22,316 --> 00:03:26,356 Speaker 1: Maybe I love my wife. She doesn't mince her words. 45 00:03:26,876 --> 00:03:31,836 Speaker 1: But anyways, during all the release and news coverage about 46 00:03:31,836 --> 00:03:35,556 Speaker 1: a Promised Land coming out Obama's new memoir, I was 47 00:03:36,156 --> 00:03:41,196 Speaker 1: so excited to hear Obama talk about um, the book 48 00:03:42,276 --> 00:03:45,956 Speaker 1: in general, right. Um. He was giving interviews, and I 49 00:03:45,996 --> 00:03:47,956 Speaker 1: happened to be in the shower, and it was it 50 00:03:47,956 --> 00:03:50,916 Speaker 1: was late afternoon, you know, after workout or something, and 51 00:03:51,116 --> 00:03:58,116 Speaker 1: it's all things considered, I'm super excited, and I'm like, 52 00:03:58,156 --> 00:04:00,036 Speaker 1: oh my god, I gotta call Ben because I got 53 00:04:00,196 --> 00:04:03,636 Speaker 1: I gotta let him know that Obama's on talking about 54 00:04:03,676 --> 00:04:06,996 Speaker 1: his book. And for me in particular, what I was 55 00:04:07,076 --> 00:04:11,996 Speaker 1: fascinated at least anticipated, was he hadn't talked almost at 56 00:04:12,036 --> 00:04:14,276 Speaker 1: all in the wake of the four years of Trump. 57 00:04:14,556 --> 00:04:16,356 Speaker 1: Very little he had to say. I mean, he was 58 00:04:16,356 --> 00:04:19,076 Speaker 1: writing a seven hundred page book. Well that's true. But 59 00:04:19,476 --> 00:04:21,436 Speaker 1: I'm not the only one who felt like that. You 60 00:04:21,476 --> 00:04:24,076 Speaker 1: know that we could have used more from him too, 61 00:04:24,236 --> 00:04:26,396 Speaker 1: Definitely talk about what the hell was going on in 62 00:04:26,436 --> 00:04:28,756 Speaker 1: the country. Okay, So that was one reason that I 63 00:04:28,876 --> 00:04:31,116 Speaker 1: was fascinating to hear this interview. And then the second 64 00:04:31,116 --> 00:04:34,596 Speaker 1: reason is because it was although it was November, he 65 00:04:34,636 --> 00:04:38,236 Speaker 1: hadn't said very much about the madness of the George 66 00:04:38,236 --> 00:04:40,436 Speaker 1: Floyd summer in the protest and all of that. Yeah, 67 00:04:40,476 --> 00:04:42,996 Speaker 1: we are, I mean, just thinking about that crazy moment. 68 00:04:43,436 --> 00:04:48,396 Speaker 1: It's after the election. Biden has one, Trump hasn't conceded. 69 00:04:49,036 --> 00:04:51,676 Speaker 1: We're in the middle of the pandemic. We're coming after 70 00:04:51,716 --> 00:04:55,276 Speaker 1: the summer of George Floyd. It's fucking madness. Yeah, it's crazy. 71 00:04:55,316 --> 00:05:01,356 Speaker 1: And then we get smooth, smooth jazz Barry. Right, So 72 00:05:01,996 --> 00:05:06,156 Speaker 1: he's giving an interview to Michelle Martin and they immediately 73 00:05:06,196 --> 00:05:12,316 Speaker 1: get to the race issue well, as I write, particularly 74 00:05:12,396 --> 00:05:15,036 Speaker 1: when you start looking at police issues. And that's why 75 00:05:15,156 --> 00:05:18,076 Speaker 1: I think what happened this summer with George Floyd was 76 00:05:18,116 --> 00:05:21,916 Speaker 1: so important, where you saw at least some shift in 77 00:05:21,956 --> 00:05:28,516 Speaker 1: the general population in recognizing that there's real racial bias 78 00:05:28,676 --> 00:05:31,996 Speaker 1: in how our criminal laws are applied and how policing 79 00:05:32,036 --> 00:05:36,636 Speaker 1: operates in this country. What I realized was that nothing 80 00:05:36,756 --> 00:05:40,796 Speaker 1: touches a nerve more in terms of the relationship between 81 00:05:40,836 --> 00:05:44,436 Speaker 1: the races in this country than the issue of policing. 82 00:05:45,276 --> 00:05:49,996 Speaker 1: We all know that Obama's brilliant and very thoughtful in 83 00:05:50,076 --> 00:05:53,676 Speaker 1: his speech, and we're thinking a lot of complicated ideas 84 00:05:53,796 --> 00:05:57,716 Speaker 1: and that he's not the fastest talker, right, but oh 85 00:05:57,756 --> 00:05:59,876 Speaker 1: my god, man, I mean, do you remember how frustrated 86 00:05:59,916 --> 00:06:04,596 Speaker 1: I was. I was like, yeah, yeah, every word that 87 00:06:04,716 --> 00:06:07,996 Speaker 1: came out of his mouth about how he was understanding 88 00:06:07,996 --> 00:06:11,076 Speaker 1: what was happening around races in the country was like 89 00:06:11,276 --> 00:06:16,076 Speaker 1: dripping one syllable at a time. Well, the dripping metaphor 90 00:06:16,116 --> 00:06:18,676 Speaker 1: is good because you're in the shower, but you you 91 00:06:18,716 --> 00:06:22,196 Speaker 1: had developed a theory after this that he speaks more 92 00:06:22,236 --> 00:06:25,836 Speaker 1: slowly when he's talking about race, yeah, than about other issues. 93 00:06:25,996 --> 00:06:29,916 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, and it probably could be empirically proven. I 94 00:06:29,916 --> 00:06:31,756 Speaker 1: haven't done it yet, even though I'm the one who's 95 00:06:31,796 --> 00:06:33,916 Speaker 1: the solow called why do you think that is? So 96 00:06:33,996 --> 00:06:36,276 Speaker 1: you came up with this theory at that moment, we 97 00:06:36,316 --> 00:06:38,596 Speaker 1: call it this shower theory. Yeah, I'm just listening to 98 00:06:38,596 --> 00:06:41,316 Speaker 1: an interview. But now that I've read the book, I mean, 99 00:06:41,556 --> 00:06:47,036 Speaker 1: the theory is now for real. Like he doesn't want 100 00:06:48,236 --> 00:06:53,076 Speaker 1: to own notice I'm modeling Obama, you are speaking slow 101 00:06:53,756 --> 00:07:02,516 Speaker 1: as he doesn't. He doesn't want to own the burden 102 00:07:03,796 --> 00:07:07,796 Speaker 1: of making white people feel like they're all racists. He 103 00:07:07,916 --> 00:07:13,876 Speaker 1: actually has a thing about black people who think white 104 00:07:13,876 --> 00:07:18,156 Speaker 1: people are in general racist, and he rejects this view 105 00:07:18,316 --> 00:07:21,476 Speaker 1: over and over again in the book. I resisted the 106 00:07:21,516 --> 00:07:23,596 Speaker 1: notion held by some of the black folks. I knew 107 00:07:23,716 --> 00:07:29,236 Speaker 1: that white people were irredeemably racist, the conviction that racism 108 00:07:29,556 --> 00:07:33,036 Speaker 1: wasn't inevitable. They also explained my willingness to defend the 109 00:07:33,076 --> 00:07:36,996 Speaker 1: American idea, what the country was and what it could become. 110 00:07:37,636 --> 00:07:39,916 Speaker 1: He calls it out. But do you think so that 111 00:07:39,956 --> 00:07:44,356 Speaker 1: means he's he's weighing his words even more carefully. Ye. Yes, 112 00:07:44,556 --> 00:07:48,156 Speaker 1: I think he is weighing his words because he doesn't 113 00:07:48,276 --> 00:07:50,796 Speaker 1: want to give the impression that he's one of those 114 00:07:50,956 --> 00:07:53,916 Speaker 1: kind of black people. Maybe he's speaking really slowly, just 115 00:07:53,996 --> 00:07:57,316 Speaker 1: hoping that people won't won't listen. Well, I think what 116 00:07:57,396 --> 00:08:00,196 Speaker 1: he's doing, Like, here's my takeaway on this point. I 117 00:08:00,236 --> 00:08:02,756 Speaker 1: think he's just trying not to give that impression to 118 00:08:02,796 --> 00:08:05,276 Speaker 1: white people. He wants white people to like him, or 119 00:08:05,316 --> 00:08:07,756 Speaker 1: at least to listen to him in such a way 120 00:08:07,796 --> 00:08:11,756 Speaker 1: that they won't confuse him with those crazy, radical, racist 121 00:08:11,756 --> 00:08:14,436 Speaker 1: black people. Yeah. So, so we didn't do an empirical 122 00:08:14,476 --> 00:08:17,636 Speaker 1: study of how he speaks and his pace, but we 123 00:08:17,676 --> 00:08:19,516 Speaker 1: did go back and read these two books, and we 124 00:08:19,596 --> 00:08:22,156 Speaker 1: read them really carefully. We're going to talk about them 125 00:08:22,156 --> 00:08:35,996 Speaker 1: in depth. Yep, let's do it. I mean, listen, Um, 126 00:08:36,556 --> 00:08:40,476 Speaker 1: there's so much in this book to talk about, and 127 00:08:40,956 --> 00:08:42,956 Speaker 1: one of the things that I think is really important 128 00:08:42,996 --> 00:08:47,156 Speaker 1: to start with is his conception of the American story, 129 00:08:47,436 --> 00:08:51,996 Speaker 1: the nation itself, like how he understands the promise of 130 00:08:51,996 --> 00:08:54,756 Speaker 1: the nation, hence the title of the book, and he 131 00:08:54,796 --> 00:08:57,996 Speaker 1: gets added right away. I mean, the preface, in many ways, 132 00:08:58,036 --> 00:09:01,156 Speaker 1: maybe the most revealing of how Obama talks about race 133 00:09:01,236 --> 00:09:03,956 Speaker 1: and democracy. I mean, oh, this is this is like 134 00:09:03,956 --> 00:09:05,556 Speaker 1: one of those book reports where it sounds like you 135 00:09:05,636 --> 00:09:08,436 Speaker 1: only read the preface. I know, I know, I know, 136 00:09:09,636 --> 00:09:12,756 Speaker 1: the most important part is in the first four pages. 137 00:09:12,876 --> 00:09:15,556 Speaker 1: But I can assure you, Barack, if you're listening, I 138 00:09:15,596 --> 00:09:18,796 Speaker 1: read the entire book. Okay, Now that being said, you 139 00:09:18,836 --> 00:09:21,396 Speaker 1: know this notion. We talk a lot, you and me 140 00:09:21,556 --> 00:09:25,556 Speaker 1: about American exceptionalism. Yeah, and usually for me it's like 141 00:09:25,716 --> 00:09:29,836 Speaker 1: the myth of American exceptionalism. Yeah, so American exceptionalism the 142 00:09:29,916 --> 00:09:33,996 Speaker 1: idea that this country is really the greatest country in 143 00:09:34,036 --> 00:09:36,916 Speaker 1: the world, that we are the most perfect nation, and 144 00:09:36,916 --> 00:09:39,596 Speaker 1: we're striving towards a perfect nation, but we're already like 145 00:09:39,756 --> 00:09:42,996 Speaker 1: leaps and bounds ahead of others from our founding and 146 00:09:43,356 --> 00:09:46,116 Speaker 1: a sense of equality and democracy to now that we 147 00:09:46,196 --> 00:09:50,076 Speaker 1: are the leading democracy in the world. Right that there's 148 00:09:50,356 --> 00:09:53,476 Speaker 1: that there's something about this notion of the American dream 149 00:09:53,636 --> 00:09:56,796 Speaker 1: about everyone can have their cake and eat it too 150 00:09:56,796 --> 00:10:00,356 Speaker 1: if they just work hard enough. Usually for us falls 151 00:10:00,356 --> 00:10:02,436 Speaker 1: short of reality, and we spend a lot of time 152 00:10:02,476 --> 00:10:06,676 Speaker 1: trying to square that myth with reality. So Obama gets 153 00:10:06,756 --> 00:10:11,596 Speaker 1: right at it. I mean, in the preface, he basically says, 154 00:10:11,996 --> 00:10:14,636 Speaker 1: you know, I recognize that there are those who believe 155 00:10:14,836 --> 00:10:18,996 Speaker 1: that it is time to discard the myth. And then 156 00:10:19,036 --> 00:10:21,996 Speaker 1: he even says that the critiques of him as someone 157 00:10:22,516 --> 00:10:27,396 Speaker 1: who is committed to American exceptionalism means that he has 158 00:10:27,436 --> 00:10:31,236 Speaker 1: been quote unquote understood to be too tempered in speaking 159 00:10:31,316 --> 00:10:35,236 Speaker 1: the truth, too cautious in either word or deed. I mean, 160 00:10:35,236 --> 00:10:39,436 Speaker 1: this guy understands himself where he fits in the world, 161 00:10:39,556 --> 00:10:42,276 Speaker 1: and the ideas that are at stake with the choices 162 00:10:42,356 --> 00:10:44,676 Speaker 1: that he has made and the choices he's likely to 163 00:10:44,716 --> 00:10:46,956 Speaker 1: make in his post presidency. And so at the end 164 00:10:46,956 --> 00:10:49,596 Speaker 1: of the day, he says, like for him, he's not 165 00:10:49,676 --> 00:10:52,236 Speaker 1: ready to give up. He cites Lincoln. He says, like 166 00:10:52,356 --> 00:10:55,276 Speaker 1: Lincoln called out the better angels of our nation. He says, 167 00:10:55,276 --> 00:10:57,916 Speaker 1: I think we stand a better chance believing in the 168 00:10:57,956 --> 00:11:01,756 Speaker 1: promise of America. And he says, of course the jury 169 00:11:01,836 --> 00:11:05,036 Speaker 1: is still out, but I think this book is for 170 00:11:05,156 --> 00:11:08,436 Speaker 1: young people. This is an invitation for them to remake 171 00:11:08,476 --> 00:11:11,876 Speaker 1: the world, to work hard, to be determined, and to 172 00:11:12,036 --> 00:11:17,636 Speaker 1: make America finally achieve what it's always believed is possible. 173 00:11:18,076 --> 00:11:20,476 Speaker 1: So I'm really interested in that idea that you take 174 00:11:20,516 --> 00:11:23,196 Speaker 1: from the premise that we have this the myth and reality. 175 00:11:23,276 --> 00:11:26,756 Speaker 1: But he's still incredibly hopeful and is going to strive 176 00:11:26,876 --> 00:11:29,796 Speaker 1: towards good. Yeah, And then how he applies that to 177 00:11:29,876 --> 00:11:33,396 Speaker 1: some of these specific moments and talks about them, some 178 00:11:33,436 --> 00:11:36,916 Speaker 1: of these kind of racial trigger moments in his presidency. 179 00:11:37,276 --> 00:11:42,116 Speaker 1: So he basically talks about two Americas. There is essentially 180 00:11:42,196 --> 00:11:46,476 Speaker 1: the America of the Confederacy, the America of slave owners 181 00:11:46,476 --> 00:11:50,756 Speaker 1: of people committed to segregation in Jim Crow, in America 182 00:11:50,836 --> 00:11:53,836 Speaker 1: where there are real racist bigots and people who don't 183 00:11:53,836 --> 00:11:56,836 Speaker 1: believe in democracy. And then there's this other America, the 184 00:11:56,876 --> 00:11:59,756 Speaker 1: America that he believes in, the America that elected him twice, 185 00:11:59,756 --> 00:12:03,956 Speaker 1: the America that is the one that made promises that 186 00:12:04,316 --> 00:12:07,516 Speaker 1: will be the beacon of light to guide us to 187 00:12:07,556 --> 00:12:12,316 Speaker 1: the future. Because one the things that becomes clear very 188 00:12:12,396 --> 00:12:18,596 Speaker 1: quickly is that what Obama calls race, or what he 189 00:12:18,916 --> 00:12:22,996 Speaker 1: describes as our racial past and what we might call 190 00:12:23,076 --> 00:12:27,156 Speaker 1: as racism, is for him a thing of the past. 191 00:12:28,036 --> 00:12:32,596 Speaker 1: He has a clear eyed understanding of the realness of 192 00:12:32,716 --> 00:12:38,036 Speaker 1: racism that is situated in our past, but he does 193 00:12:38,156 --> 00:12:42,036 Speaker 1: not call it the same thing in our present. Here's 194 00:12:42,076 --> 00:12:45,156 Speaker 1: one thing I never believed, right, was the fever of 195 00:12:45,276 --> 00:12:49,396 Speaker 1: racism being broken by my election. But I never subscribed 196 00:12:49,436 --> 00:12:54,156 Speaker 1: to the we'd live in a post racial era. But 197 00:12:54,276 --> 00:13:01,556 Speaker 1: I think that what did happen during my presidency was, yes, 198 00:13:02,116 --> 00:13:08,476 Speaker 1: a backlash among some people who felt that somehow I 199 00:13:08,596 --> 00:13:14,476 Speaker 1: symbolized the possibility that they or their group were losing 200 00:13:14,556 --> 00:13:17,636 Speaker 1: status just by virtue of the fact that I didn't 201 00:13:17,636 --> 00:13:21,356 Speaker 1: look like all the other presidents previously. It is almost 202 00:13:21,436 --> 00:13:24,876 Speaker 1: as if in the present what we might recognize as 203 00:13:24,996 --> 00:13:32,116 Speaker 1: racism are grievances, resentments, lights, and things that are in 204 00:13:32,156 --> 00:13:35,556 Speaker 1: people's head. So Khalil I spoke to one of the 205 00:13:35,596 --> 00:13:40,396 Speaker 1: smartest people I know about books, Jennifer Sally. She's brilliant. 206 00:13:40,796 --> 00:13:48,756 Speaker 1: She has reviewed pretty much every single political memoir over 207 00:13:48,756 --> 00:13:51,596 Speaker 1: the last four years. I think public figures in general, 208 00:13:51,636 --> 00:13:57,436 Speaker 1: when they read a memoir, it is often about, you know, 209 00:13:57,596 --> 00:14:03,356 Speaker 1: either trying to explain themselves, trying to excuse themselves, and 210 00:14:04,156 --> 00:14:08,116 Speaker 1: trying to shape the contours of how they're remembered. She 211 00:14:08,196 --> 00:14:11,636 Speaker 1: actually reviewed both of these books, Becoming and a Promised 212 00:14:11,676 --> 00:14:15,876 Speaker 1: Land in the Times. So I asked her basically, like, 213 00:14:16,116 --> 00:14:18,636 Speaker 1: how do these books function? Meaning if we're going to 214 00:14:18,716 --> 00:14:21,196 Speaker 1: look into these books, you know, how are we supposed 215 00:14:21,196 --> 00:14:23,716 Speaker 1: to judge them? And this is one of the things 216 00:14:23,716 --> 00:14:28,196 Speaker 1: that jen told me. I do think that his way 217 00:14:28,196 --> 00:14:32,476 Speaker 1: of thinking, even if it turns out sometimes to be 218 00:14:32,596 --> 00:14:35,996 Speaker 1: politically frustrating and it is not necessarily what you want 219 00:14:36,036 --> 00:14:40,276 Speaker 1: from a politician, especially when the stakes are really high. 220 00:14:40,316 --> 00:14:44,796 Speaker 1: But I think as a reader, I do appreciate reading 221 00:14:44,916 --> 00:14:50,516 Speaker 1: along in someone's consciousness who is, you know, very self 222 00:14:50,596 --> 00:14:53,596 Speaker 1: aware and also aware of the situation at hand. I 223 00:14:53,636 --> 00:14:56,836 Speaker 1: think that that can actually have you know, maybe real 224 00:14:56,956 --> 00:15:00,836 Speaker 1: world hindrances when it comes to dealing with some of 225 00:15:00,836 --> 00:15:05,676 Speaker 1: these things. Oh Man, that that that line when she 226 00:15:05,756 --> 00:15:12,156 Speaker 1: says that he's you know, thoughtful, very self aware and formed, 227 00:15:12,636 --> 00:15:16,716 Speaker 1: that's it, Like she's guided exactly right, just in terms 228 00:15:16,756 --> 00:15:22,956 Speaker 1: of my one of my major impressions, aside from watching 229 00:15:23,036 --> 00:15:27,916 Speaker 1: him very thoughtfully and deliberatively talk about complicating things over 230 00:15:27,916 --> 00:15:32,236 Speaker 1: the course of his presidency, reading his memoir, I was 231 00:15:32,316 --> 00:15:35,796 Speaker 1: struck by the fact that all the times that I 232 00:15:35,796 --> 00:15:38,516 Speaker 1: would have pulled him by his lapel and said, rock, 233 00:15:38,916 --> 00:15:41,756 Speaker 1: this is where you need to do and then given 234 00:15:41,796 --> 00:15:44,596 Speaker 1: him a history lesson or some kind of policy context 235 00:15:44,716 --> 00:15:47,356 Speaker 1: or something like the New Deal didn't work for black people, 236 00:15:47,436 --> 00:15:50,556 Speaker 1: the universal programs won't get us there to racial justice. 237 00:15:50,756 --> 00:15:52,996 Speaker 1: Like any of those moments I felt over the course 238 00:15:53,036 --> 00:15:57,996 Speaker 1: of his administration, I learned by reading this book that 239 00:15:58,396 --> 00:16:01,236 Speaker 1: he taken all that into account. Yeah, Like I came 240 00:16:01,276 --> 00:16:03,636 Speaker 1: away from the book thinking to myself, I could not 241 00:16:03,756 --> 00:16:08,996 Speaker 1: have passed on any nugget of information or historical context 242 00:16:09,236 --> 00:16:12,716 Speaker 1: wisdom that he didn't already know. And in that She's right, 243 00:16:12,796 --> 00:16:17,036 Speaker 1: he's brilliant. He's incredibly well informed. Let's turn to Michelle 244 00:16:17,076 --> 00:16:39,236 Speaker 1: Obama's Becoming. Let's do it. Becoming came out at the 245 00:16:39,276 --> 00:16:43,476 Speaker 1: same time as my book, High Risers, and I would 246 00:16:43,796 --> 00:16:46,236 Speaker 1: go to the bookstore, you know, fucking excited, like there's 247 00:16:46,276 --> 00:16:48,836 Speaker 1: my book on the stand, and I would see people 248 00:16:48,916 --> 00:16:51,636 Speaker 1: come in and buy Becoming. This is on the South 249 00:16:51,676 --> 00:16:54,796 Speaker 1: side of Chicago, like like they were like they were 250 00:16:54,836 --> 00:16:58,436 Speaker 1: shopping for toilet paper during the pandemic. They would like 251 00:16:58,556 --> 00:17:01,556 Speaker 1: grab six or seven and you know, and just like 252 00:17:01,596 --> 00:17:05,676 Speaker 1: walk to the register. I was like, oh shit, that's 253 00:17:05,676 --> 00:17:07,516 Speaker 1: how you sell a lot of books. They were making 254 00:17:07,556 --> 00:17:10,436 Speaker 1: an investment. Man, those books. They're thinking those books, they're 255 00:17:10,436 --> 00:17:12,116 Speaker 1: gonna be worth a lot of money on eBay one 256 00:17:12,196 --> 00:17:17,236 Speaker 1: day it was before Christmas of twenty eighteen, and people 257 00:17:17,276 --> 00:17:19,996 Speaker 1: were just giving them away. Yeah, you know, that was 258 00:17:20,036 --> 00:17:24,036 Speaker 1: in everyone stocking or under their manorah or on the quan. 259 00:17:25,396 --> 00:17:29,076 Speaker 1: So you had, in many ways, the better of the 260 00:17:29,116 --> 00:17:31,876 Speaker 1: two tasks, because I read a whole bunch of foreign policy. 261 00:17:31,916 --> 00:17:33,316 Speaker 1: I mean, I know more about what was going on 262 00:17:33,356 --> 00:17:36,156 Speaker 1: in the world during Obama years than most people in 263 00:17:36,196 --> 00:17:39,356 Speaker 1: the world who were living in those places. But I digress. 264 00:17:39,636 --> 00:17:43,676 Speaker 1: So the first time Michelle Obama is really thrust into 265 00:17:43,716 --> 00:17:46,276 Speaker 1: the national stage is this moment in two thousand and 266 00:17:46,356 --> 00:17:49,316 Speaker 1: eight when she's on the campaign trail for her husband. 267 00:17:50,236 --> 00:17:52,636 Speaker 1: Let me tell you something, for the first time in 268 00:17:52,756 --> 00:17:57,156 Speaker 1: my adult lifetime, I'm really proud of my country, and 269 00:17:57,236 --> 00:18:02,636 Speaker 1: not just because Barack is done well, but because I 270 00:18:02,676 --> 00:18:05,516 Speaker 1: think people are hungry for change. And what she means 271 00:18:05,596 --> 00:18:08,596 Speaker 1: is that there's even a black candidate for president. But 272 00:18:08,636 --> 00:18:13,196 Speaker 1: it becomes this sort of highly politicized moment, and to 273 00:18:13,316 --> 00:18:16,076 Speaker 1: think of her becomes her angry black woman moment. Yeah, yeah, 274 00:18:16,076 --> 00:18:19,236 Speaker 1: she suddenly gets stamped as an angry black woman. You know. 275 00:18:19,316 --> 00:18:21,716 Speaker 1: There there's you know, this idea that she is a 276 00:18:21,796 --> 00:18:24,716 Speaker 1: radical who, like, the most radical thing she's ever done 277 00:18:24,836 --> 00:18:27,316 Speaker 1: is decide not to be a lawyer. But it's it's 278 00:18:27,316 --> 00:18:30,636 Speaker 1: also a radicalism that is interpreted through the right wing 279 00:18:30,716 --> 00:18:34,476 Speaker 1: media as someone who hates America, because if this is 280 00:18:34,476 --> 00:18:36,676 Speaker 1: the first time and she's a grown up adult, then 281 00:18:36,796 --> 00:18:39,076 Speaker 1: what then she must have been hating on the country 282 00:18:39,116 --> 00:18:41,316 Speaker 1: all this time. So for us to talk about how 283 00:18:41,356 --> 00:18:44,316 Speaker 1: she talks about race, this is a good starting point 284 00:18:44,316 --> 00:18:47,276 Speaker 1: because it is this sort of like, you know, touchstone 285 00:18:47,276 --> 00:18:49,156 Speaker 1: moment for her yeah, and I can't wait. I know 286 00:18:49,156 --> 00:18:51,836 Speaker 1: what Obama says about it. He was like, yeah, we 287 00:18:51,836 --> 00:18:54,116 Speaker 1: shouldn't have even put her up there without practice, which 288 00:18:54,156 --> 00:18:56,276 Speaker 1: is interesting, But I can't wait to hear what she 289 00:18:56,276 --> 00:18:59,036 Speaker 1: says about it. I'm gonna actually tell you about how 290 00:18:59,036 --> 00:19:02,356 Speaker 1: the book is written to sort of explain. Becoming is 291 00:19:02,356 --> 00:19:04,916 Speaker 1: written in three parts, okay, and the first part is 292 00:19:04,916 --> 00:19:08,236 Speaker 1: called Becoming Me, the second part is called Becoming Us, 293 00:19:08,436 --> 00:19:11,996 Speaker 1: and the third heart is called Becoming More. The book 294 00:19:12,036 --> 00:19:14,436 Speaker 1: is kind of self empowerment, sort of has this kind 295 00:19:14,436 --> 00:19:18,116 Speaker 1: of self help, self actualization. She keeps on talking about 296 00:19:18,116 --> 00:19:20,996 Speaker 1: finding her voice, and she talks a lot about how 297 00:19:21,076 --> 00:19:24,876 Speaker 1: women support women. And the part that you just mentioned 298 00:19:24,916 --> 00:19:28,476 Speaker 1: where she says this in Madison, Wisconsin occurs late in 299 00:19:28,516 --> 00:19:31,276 Speaker 1: the second part of Becoming Us, which is about her 300 00:19:31,436 --> 00:19:34,596 Speaker 1: and Barack becoming a couple and then him running for president. 301 00:19:34,876 --> 00:19:36,636 Speaker 1: The third part is when they're in the White House. 302 00:19:37,156 --> 00:19:39,196 Speaker 1: But to really answer that question, I have to go 303 00:19:39,236 --> 00:19:41,556 Speaker 1: back to the first part, which is about her becoming me. 304 00:19:42,556 --> 00:19:45,076 Speaker 1: You're you're teasing us. You're setting this up, right, I 305 00:19:45,116 --> 00:19:47,436 Speaker 1: just got to explain the context. You can't understand it. 306 00:19:47,556 --> 00:19:50,716 Speaker 1: I'm I'm giving the book it's due because I gotta say, 307 00:19:50,796 --> 00:19:53,476 Speaker 1: like that first part. I love that first part. The 308 00:19:53,556 --> 00:19:56,756 Speaker 1: first part of the book is, which is about her 309 00:19:57,036 --> 00:20:01,596 Speaker 1: and her upbringing, is beautiful. It's beautifully written, it's powerfully written. 310 00:20:01,636 --> 00:20:06,556 Speaker 1: It's so specific and rich in detail and read something 311 00:20:06,596 --> 00:20:11,916 Speaker 1: from it. And Michelle's book is so specifically about being black, 312 00:20:11,956 --> 00:20:15,636 Speaker 1: working class on the South Side of Chicago and of 313 00:20:15,676 --> 00:20:18,516 Speaker 1: a certain moment in time which we know, which is 314 00:20:18,556 --> 00:20:22,436 Speaker 1: after civil Rights. It's so grounded in that moment and 315 00:20:22,556 --> 00:20:26,836 Speaker 1: in such in such detail. Now I don't live that experience, 316 00:20:27,076 --> 00:20:28,756 Speaker 1: but for me, part of the pleasure of the book 317 00:20:28,836 --> 00:20:32,956 Speaker 1: is that it's so familiar in locale. Uh. You know, 318 00:20:33,076 --> 00:20:35,156 Speaker 1: she is growing up a couple of blocks from me. 319 00:20:35,396 --> 00:20:37,636 Speaker 1: She gets on the six Jeffrey bus, which is my 320 00:20:37,716 --> 00:20:40,636 Speaker 1: bus yep, I know that buzz that's my bus too. 321 00:20:40,716 --> 00:20:43,156 Speaker 1: She goes to Whitney Young, where my niece goes. You know, 322 00:20:43,236 --> 00:20:45,476 Speaker 1: her and her friends go to WaterTower to ride up 323 00:20:45,476 --> 00:20:48,316 Speaker 1: and down the escalator, which is what we did. That's right. 324 00:20:48,516 --> 00:20:51,956 Speaker 1: Marshall Fields was where I got all my backed clothes, 325 00:20:52,116 --> 00:20:54,556 Speaker 1: because yes I was. I was black and bougie in 326 00:20:54,596 --> 00:20:58,076 Speaker 1: a way black and bougie, black and bougie. Yep. You know. 327 00:20:58,116 --> 00:21:00,876 Speaker 1: She talks about racial turnover in the neighborhood, which is, 328 00:21:01,196 --> 00:21:03,476 Speaker 1: you know, it's my experience if suddenly you see all 329 00:21:03,516 --> 00:21:08,116 Speaker 1: these churches that ten, fifteen, twenty years before, we're synagogues. 330 00:21:08,196 --> 00:21:10,796 Speaker 1: It's just incredibly But I think the book it would 331 00:21:10,796 --> 00:21:13,396 Speaker 1: be almost it would even even other people reading would 332 00:21:13,436 --> 00:21:15,996 Speaker 1: feel this sense of familiarity, because that's just good writing, 333 00:21:16,116 --> 00:21:19,596 Speaker 1: you see it. And it's also about striving. It's also 334 00:21:19,636 --> 00:21:23,356 Speaker 1: about being. You know, the very first line of the 335 00:21:23,396 --> 00:21:26,356 Speaker 1: book is I spent much of my childhood listening to 336 00:21:26,396 --> 00:21:30,476 Speaker 1: the sounds of striving. And she's talking specifically about her aunt. 337 00:21:30,516 --> 00:21:32,396 Speaker 1: They live in a split level home and her aunt 338 00:21:32,476 --> 00:21:35,916 Speaker 1: is teaching piano below her. But um, you know, it's 339 00:21:35,996 --> 00:21:38,796 Speaker 1: it's as a metaphor, she extends it of being somebody 340 00:21:38,836 --> 00:21:41,156 Speaker 1: who wants to achieve, who thinks about this and is 341 00:21:41,596 --> 00:21:44,476 Speaker 1: kind of on a path, almost thoughtlessly. She talks about 342 00:21:44,476 --> 00:21:47,316 Speaker 1: herself being a box checker. She's such a rule following. 343 00:21:47,396 --> 00:21:51,476 Speaker 1: You know, Michelle gives Obama this grounded experience, you know, 344 00:21:51,596 --> 00:21:54,276 Speaker 1: a sense of place. So back to the idea of 345 00:21:54,276 --> 00:21:55,916 Speaker 1: when she says, you know, I'm not this is the 346 00:21:55,916 --> 00:21:57,756 Speaker 1: first time I've been proud of my country because it's 347 00:21:57,756 --> 00:22:00,596 Speaker 1: really in the details and in the details of her experience. 348 00:22:00,596 --> 00:22:02,676 Speaker 1: She doesn't she doesn't have to say it exactly, it's 349 00:22:02,716 --> 00:22:06,476 Speaker 1: actually been shown. She has this sketch of her grandfather, 350 00:22:06,756 --> 00:22:09,676 Speaker 1: and I'm going to read your little bit of it. 351 00:22:10,756 --> 00:22:12,476 Speaker 1: I'm really glad you're going to read a little bit 352 00:22:12,476 --> 00:22:16,916 Speaker 1: of it. If this were an American dream story, Dandy, 353 00:22:16,996 --> 00:22:19,436 Speaker 1: which is what she calls her grandfather, who arrived in 354 00:22:19,556 --> 00:22:22,476 Speaker 1: Chicago in the early nineteen thirties, would have found a 355 00:22:22,476 --> 00:22:25,716 Speaker 1: good job and a pathway to college. But the reality 356 00:22:25,796 --> 00:22:29,036 Speaker 1: was far different. Jobs were hired to come by, limited 357 00:22:29,076 --> 00:22:31,356 Speaker 1: at least somewhat by the fact that managers at some 358 00:22:31,396 --> 00:22:35,556 Speaker 1: of the big factories in Chicago regularly hired Europeans over 359 00:22:35,636 --> 00:22:39,876 Speaker 1: African American workers. Dandy took what work he could find, 360 00:22:39,956 --> 00:22:44,396 Speaker 1: setting pins in the bowling alley and freelancing as a handyman. Gradually, 361 00:22:44,436 --> 00:22:48,036 Speaker 1: he downgraded his hopes, letting go of the idea of college, 362 00:22:48,436 --> 00:22:51,716 Speaker 1: thinking he'd trained to become an electrician instead. But this 363 00:22:51,796 --> 00:22:56,236 Speaker 1: too was quickly thwarted, and so then she talks about 364 00:22:56,436 --> 00:23:00,436 Speaker 1: not experiencing the American dream. She has this really amazing 365 00:23:01,036 --> 00:23:03,596 Speaker 1: depiction of her father, and you'd asked what are her 366 00:23:03,596 --> 00:23:06,436 Speaker 1: parents to Her father works in the water department for 367 00:23:06,556 --> 00:23:11,036 Speaker 1: the city of Chicago, and he also has stunted dreams. 368 00:23:11,076 --> 00:23:15,356 Speaker 1: He wanted to be an artist, he was an athlete, 369 00:23:15,716 --> 00:23:19,836 Speaker 1: but then he gets ms, he gets multiple sclerosis, and 370 00:23:19,916 --> 00:23:22,996 Speaker 1: he is just somebody who works so hard and works 371 00:23:23,076 --> 00:23:26,436 Speaker 1: kind of like silently and tirelessly. And she tells this 372 00:23:26,636 --> 00:23:30,756 Speaker 1: amazing story of his car and how much he loves 373 00:23:30,756 --> 00:23:33,236 Speaker 1: his car, and his car is sort of like a 374 00:23:33,356 --> 00:23:37,236 Speaker 1: symbol of success and and you know, rising up but 375 00:23:37,316 --> 00:23:42,276 Speaker 1: also giving him mobility because of his disease. And he 376 00:23:42,316 --> 00:23:45,476 Speaker 1: has this car. It's a bronze colored two door Buick 377 00:23:45,516 --> 00:23:49,396 Speaker 1: Electra two two five, which he calls Aduce in a Quarter. 378 00:23:49,876 --> 00:23:51,956 Speaker 1: I was gonna say it, man, I wanted to call 379 00:23:51,996 --> 00:23:53,956 Speaker 1: it out just before you did. Of course, it's a 380 00:23:54,036 --> 00:23:56,356 Speaker 1: deuce in the quarter. Aduce in a quarter. So then 381 00:23:56,396 --> 00:23:59,916 Speaker 1: she tells this story of you know, someone in the neighborhood, 382 00:23:59,916 --> 00:24:02,756 Speaker 1: a black family, one of their neighbors moves to the suburbs, 383 00:24:02,876 --> 00:24:05,076 Speaker 1: and it's like what they moved to the suburbs, And 384 00:24:05,116 --> 00:24:06,476 Speaker 1: so they live in the in the city on the 385 00:24:06,516 --> 00:24:10,076 Speaker 1: south side of Chicago and they, yeah, all get in 386 00:24:10,116 --> 00:24:13,116 Speaker 1: the in the car. One day, Michelle, her brother, Craig, 387 00:24:13,316 --> 00:24:15,556 Speaker 1: her parents, and they drive out there in the deuce 388 00:24:15,636 --> 00:24:18,436 Speaker 1: in a quarter to see this family and they're like, 389 00:24:18,476 --> 00:24:20,276 Speaker 1: you know, its suburbs are kind of weird. There's all 390 00:24:20,316 --> 00:24:23,436 Speaker 1: these white people looking at them. Um, they have a house, like, 391 00:24:23,996 --> 00:24:26,436 Speaker 1: you know, she doesn't think it's that appealing. At the 392 00:24:26,516 --> 00:24:29,196 Speaker 1: end of the day, they leave to go home and 393 00:24:29,516 --> 00:24:32,356 Speaker 1: they get to their car and there's a giant scratch 394 00:24:32,356 --> 00:24:35,556 Speaker 1: in it. Someone has run a rock or something across 395 00:24:35,676 --> 00:24:41,636 Speaker 1: across the driver's side. Wow. And and like literally like 396 00:24:41,756 --> 00:24:44,836 Speaker 1: for a black man, his castle is his car, like 397 00:24:44,876 --> 00:24:47,796 Speaker 1: in a in a way that like having you know, 398 00:24:47,956 --> 00:24:50,836 Speaker 1: the American dream embodied in a mortgage in a great home. 399 00:24:51,396 --> 00:24:53,156 Speaker 1: If you couldn't have that, the next thing you could 400 00:24:53,196 --> 00:24:55,436 Speaker 1: have is a is an amazing ride like a deuce 401 00:24:55,516 --> 00:24:58,956 Speaker 1: in a quarter. Now some asshole has scratched it up. Yeah. Yeah, 402 00:24:58,996 --> 00:25:00,836 Speaker 1: and it's and it's a it's about race. I mean, 403 00:25:00,876 --> 00:25:03,076 Speaker 1: they're in a white about racism. Let's be clear, that's 404 00:25:03,116 --> 00:25:06,876 Speaker 1: about racism. Yeah, And what her father says is, well, 405 00:25:06,916 --> 00:25:10,756 Speaker 1: I'll be damned, and then they don't talk about it again. Yeah, 406 00:25:11,276 --> 00:25:14,116 Speaker 1: so that's that's how she talks about that moment. That's 407 00:25:14,116 --> 00:25:16,996 Speaker 1: how she explains it. Yeah. So the so when you 408 00:25:17,036 --> 00:25:20,156 Speaker 1: say the devil's in the details, like the narrative arc 409 00:25:20,236 --> 00:25:24,076 Speaker 1: of that kind of origin story for Michelle, when she 410 00:25:24,196 --> 00:25:28,996 Speaker 1: sees a racist act that Obama might call a racial 411 00:25:29,076 --> 00:25:32,356 Speaker 1: slight because he doesn't really talk about such things in 412 00:25:33,076 --> 00:25:36,916 Speaker 1: the kind of forceful way, so she bears direct witness, 413 00:25:37,036 --> 00:25:41,116 Speaker 1: like to the vulnerability and innocence of her own family 414 00:25:41,796 --> 00:25:46,436 Speaker 1: and yet they could be subject to this degrading assault 415 00:25:46,836 --> 00:25:52,036 Speaker 1: on just their basic dignity. Then helps to explain why 416 00:25:52,156 --> 00:25:55,876 Speaker 1: she is now on this national stage potentially be about 417 00:25:55,916 --> 00:25:58,076 Speaker 1: to become the first Lady. And it's like, holy smokes, 418 00:25:58,116 --> 00:26:00,436 Speaker 1: Like I'm seeing a part of America that I'd never 419 00:26:00,476 --> 00:26:04,836 Speaker 1: really known personally before until now. Yeah. This ties to 420 00:26:04,916 --> 00:26:07,596 Speaker 1: something that Jen Sali said to me when I interviewed her. 421 00:26:08,156 --> 00:26:11,916 Speaker 1: I did get a sense of political pessimism in her book. 422 00:26:13,956 --> 00:26:16,316 Speaker 1: You know, not quite in his book, but in her book, 423 00:26:16,596 --> 00:26:19,676 Speaker 1: where you know, the implication is that there's only so 424 00:26:19,756 --> 00:26:25,356 Speaker 1: much that politics can do to change something as deeply 425 00:26:25,796 --> 00:26:32,036 Speaker 1: entrenched in American institutions as racism. You know, people love 426 00:26:32,196 --> 00:26:36,436 Speaker 1: Michelle Obama for her realness. She's relatable in this way 427 00:26:36,476 --> 00:26:39,876 Speaker 1: that that her husband isn't. Who's you know, is prophetsorial 428 00:26:39,996 --> 00:26:44,036 Speaker 1: and cerebral and like sometimes you know, aloof cool um. 429 00:26:44,556 --> 00:26:47,236 Speaker 1: She's so grounded in place, and I I have to 430 00:26:47,276 --> 00:26:49,916 Speaker 1: say that reading this book, I loved her even more 431 00:26:50,076 --> 00:26:52,436 Speaker 1: like I felt that. And even in the ways that 432 00:26:52,556 --> 00:26:56,076 Speaker 1: she she talked about race and racism, you know, especially 433 00:26:56,156 --> 00:26:59,076 Speaker 1: in those early parts, you know her her own history. 434 00:26:59,476 --> 00:27:05,156 Speaker 1: It's so detailed, her own striving, her feeling of being underestimated, 435 00:27:05,236 --> 00:27:07,836 Speaker 1: her feeling of being the only black person in her 436 00:27:07,836 --> 00:27:10,236 Speaker 1: world as she's sort of moving through corporate worlds and 437 00:27:10,276 --> 00:27:12,956 Speaker 1: Princeton in other places, and then she enters the maelstrom 438 00:27:12,996 --> 00:27:16,276 Speaker 1: of national politics, and she she talks about being bewildered 439 00:27:16,276 --> 00:27:18,476 Speaker 1: by it all suddenly for her to be cast as 440 00:27:18,556 --> 00:27:21,836 Speaker 1: this this black radical and that's just not who she is. 441 00:27:40,836 --> 00:27:42,716 Speaker 1: But I want to tell you a quick story. The 442 00:27:42,876 --> 00:27:45,716 Speaker 1: last week of the Obama administration. I think it was 443 00:27:45,756 --> 00:27:48,396 Speaker 1: like the last week before the election. I actually went 444 00:27:48,396 --> 00:27:50,916 Speaker 1: to the White House with my wife. You went to 445 00:27:50,916 --> 00:27:52,636 Speaker 1: the White House? What to this? You didn't take me 446 00:27:52,756 --> 00:27:55,916 Speaker 1: to this beat? There's a b et event black entertainment 447 00:27:55,916 --> 00:27:59,396 Speaker 1: television has a sort of like, you know, celebration of 448 00:27:59,436 --> 00:28:12,356 Speaker 1: the Obama's this must be a BT event. Hello, everybody, 449 00:28:13,196 --> 00:28:18,716 Speaker 1: welcome to the White House. I love you back. That's 450 00:28:18,756 --> 00:28:24,236 Speaker 1: why we're having this concert. And I'm there because my 451 00:28:24,876 --> 00:28:27,076 Speaker 1: wife has the Hook told me about this. Yeah you 452 00:28:27,116 --> 00:28:31,396 Speaker 1: saw everybody, Yeah yeah. Ton Hassei Coachs writes about this, 453 00:28:31,556 --> 00:28:35,036 Speaker 1: and he is there. Barack Obama gets on the stage 454 00:28:35,036 --> 00:28:37,756 Speaker 1: with Bell Biv Devaux and dances. Cisco was there? Wasn't 455 00:28:37,796 --> 00:28:41,116 Speaker 1: Cisco there too? This woman Yolanda Adams, this gospel singer, 456 00:28:41,236 --> 00:28:44,836 Speaker 1: sings uh the John Legend part of Glory with Common 457 00:28:45,156 --> 00:28:47,956 Speaker 1: and it is just like her sound. Her voice is 458 00:28:47,996 --> 00:28:51,476 Speaker 1: just ricocheting off the room. It's like the greatest musical 459 00:28:51,516 --> 00:28:53,156 Speaker 1: experience I've ever had in my life. You know, it 460 00:28:53,196 --> 00:28:56,236 Speaker 1: was like a religious experience. Dave Chappelle actually makes a 461 00:28:56,316 --> 00:28:58,716 Speaker 1: joke there. He says that all the famous black people 462 00:28:58,956 --> 00:29:03,796 Speaker 1: and one white person, Bradley Cooper, but not the only one, 463 00:29:04,396 --> 00:29:07,476 Speaker 1: not the only one, the only one. This motherfucker was 464 00:29:07,516 --> 00:29:11,276 Speaker 1: there too. But I think I think it's important to 465 00:29:11,356 --> 00:29:15,836 Speaker 1: note that you weren't there as journalist Ben Austin. You 466 00:29:15,876 --> 00:29:19,876 Speaker 1: were there as as arm candy to your beautiful black wife. 467 00:29:20,196 --> 00:29:23,596 Speaker 1: So it was amazing, it was extraordinary. But the vibe 468 00:29:23,596 --> 00:29:27,916 Speaker 1: of the night was just this you know, celebration of 469 00:29:27,956 --> 00:29:31,036 Speaker 1: the last eight years, almost like pinching yourself and saying, 470 00:29:31,436 --> 00:29:33,836 Speaker 1: there really was like a black first family in the 471 00:29:33,836 --> 00:29:37,876 Speaker 1: White House. Like the whole evening is just this wild celebration. 472 00:29:38,196 --> 00:29:42,636 Speaker 1: The election is in days. There wasn't one mention the 473 00:29:42,916 --> 00:29:47,956 Speaker 1: entire night of the election. Get out the vote Hillary 474 00:29:47,956 --> 00:29:50,796 Speaker 1: Clinton is the best way to continue this legacy. We 475 00:29:50,836 --> 00:29:56,596 Speaker 1: need to support her, support your local elections. Not a word, nothing, zero. 476 00:29:56,876 --> 00:30:00,276 Speaker 1: And so you know, most people didn't expect that Trump 477 00:30:00,356 --> 00:30:03,956 Speaker 1: was going to win, but it did happen. And you 478 00:30:03,996 --> 00:30:06,916 Speaker 1: can't go back and talk about that night and talk 479 00:30:06,956 --> 00:30:10,196 Speaker 1: about what a great celebration of looking backwards at these 480 00:30:10,276 --> 00:30:13,276 Speaker 1: last eight years without thinking about what was to come. 481 00:30:13,796 --> 00:30:17,436 Speaker 1: And so there was that night just this great omission. 482 00:30:18,036 --> 00:30:21,636 Speaker 1: And you know that is a way. Also I think 483 00:30:21,676 --> 00:30:27,116 Speaker 1: about Michelle's book, because you can't reckon with the past 484 00:30:27,316 --> 00:30:30,796 Speaker 1: without thinking about what's going to come next. And I 485 00:30:30,836 --> 00:30:34,116 Speaker 1: guess I would say, like that's like for her to 486 00:30:34,196 --> 00:30:38,196 Speaker 1: do that, it would be a different book. It would 487 00:30:38,236 --> 00:30:41,596 Speaker 1: be less uplifting and maybe she would also be like 488 00:30:41,636 --> 00:30:44,556 Speaker 1: a different person, but that's a difficult storytelling you also 489 00:30:44,636 --> 00:30:48,756 Speaker 1: have to do. And I just I guess to kind 490 00:30:48,756 --> 00:30:54,956 Speaker 1: of bring it full circle, I think the frustration overall 491 00:30:55,916 --> 00:31:02,956 Speaker 1: is understanding for the first time that Obama's gonna stick 492 00:31:02,996 --> 00:31:05,556 Speaker 1: to his guns, right, And I mean that, like in 493 00:31:05,596 --> 00:31:10,916 Speaker 1: every way he truly believes in American acceptionalism, his commitment 494 00:31:11,316 --> 00:31:14,716 Speaker 1: to this notion of a promised land. I don't believe 495 00:31:14,716 --> 00:31:16,716 Speaker 1: it in the way that he does, and that's okay. 496 00:31:17,076 --> 00:31:19,996 Speaker 1: He just he wrote a book that basically said, no 497 00:31:20,076 --> 00:31:22,996 Speaker 1: matter what's happened in our past, and no matter what 498 00:31:23,116 --> 00:31:26,116 Speaker 1: happened doing my presidency, and no matter what's happened since, 499 00:31:26,596 --> 00:31:29,316 Speaker 1: including with the election of Donald Trump, that he's going 500 00:31:29,356 --> 00:31:31,476 Speaker 1: to double down on it. And I think I think 501 00:31:31,516 --> 00:31:34,356 Speaker 1: actually both books and when you talked about this belief 502 00:31:34,396 --> 00:31:38,076 Speaker 1: in the country, both books sort of reference that that 503 00:31:38,196 --> 00:31:41,276 Speaker 1: King quote that Obama would often cite. You know, the 504 00:31:41,396 --> 00:31:43,516 Speaker 1: arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends 505 00:31:43,516 --> 00:31:46,676 Speaker 1: towards justice. Justice. Yeah, that it is. It has this 506 00:31:46,916 --> 00:31:52,236 Speaker 1: very optimistic view of the country and the sense that 507 00:31:52,756 --> 00:31:56,356 Speaker 1: the work it actually takes to move it towards justice. 508 00:31:56,396 --> 00:31:58,916 Speaker 1: It's not that it bends on its own. That's exactly 509 00:31:59,436 --> 00:32:02,276 Speaker 1: that is so well said, because that's my other point, 510 00:32:02,396 --> 00:32:03,996 Speaker 1: like I wanted to say, because I don't want to 511 00:32:03,996 --> 00:32:06,756 Speaker 1: just seem like I'm like hating on our country, right, 512 00:32:07,116 --> 00:32:10,556 Speaker 1: I live here too, my people back generations that I 513 00:32:10,596 --> 00:32:13,716 Speaker 1: can't even number. My point is that the only way 514 00:32:13,756 --> 00:32:16,396 Speaker 1: we ever got to make the country better was by 515 00:32:16,436 --> 00:32:18,796 Speaker 1: facing the facts in front of us. And the facts 516 00:32:18,876 --> 00:32:22,556 Speaker 1: of race and racism are the actual stories that Obama 517 00:32:22,596 --> 00:32:25,876 Speaker 1: tells about American exceptionalism, the story of civil rights leaders, 518 00:32:25,916 --> 00:32:28,996 Speaker 1: the stories of people who put on their marching shoes. 519 00:32:29,076 --> 00:32:32,836 Speaker 1: He tells those stories constantly, as if race and racism 520 00:32:32,836 --> 00:32:37,476 Speaker 1: are only ever a thing of the past. And this 521 00:32:37,516 --> 00:32:41,796 Speaker 1: book does exact same thing. It keeps referring to the 522 00:32:41,876 --> 00:32:44,356 Speaker 1: heroism and the sacrifice of people in the past, but 523 00:32:44,556 --> 00:32:49,196 Speaker 1: never calls to arms the requirement and necessity of facing 524 00:32:49,236 --> 00:32:51,596 Speaker 1: those facts before the same thing in Becoming, I mean, 525 00:32:51,636 --> 00:32:55,316 Speaker 1: so those powerful stories about her father and her grandfather 526 00:32:55,756 --> 00:32:58,956 Speaker 1: of not having an equal opportunity, that the country does 527 00:32:58,996 --> 00:33:01,516 Speaker 1: not allow the dream to happen for these black men, 528 00:33:02,156 --> 00:33:04,876 Speaker 1: that that isn't a thing of the past, that is 529 00:33:04,916 --> 00:33:09,916 Speaker 1: something that is something that could could be applied to everything. Yeah, yeah, yeah, No, 530 00:33:10,116 --> 00:33:12,716 Speaker 1: she doesn't bring it up, you know, that past and 531 00:33:12,756 --> 00:33:15,236 Speaker 1: sort of apply it to her own experiences in the 532 00:33:15,276 --> 00:33:18,396 Speaker 1: White House. It feels sort of, you know, a little 533 00:33:18,396 --> 00:33:21,796 Speaker 1: bit in amber in the background. Yeah, well, I mean this, 534 00:33:21,796 --> 00:33:25,396 Speaker 1: this raises a whole series of questions that we've tried 535 00:33:25,436 --> 00:33:29,876 Speaker 1: to explore, just in centering how they talk and write 536 00:33:30,036 --> 00:33:36,436 Speaker 1: about race and racism. All right, Khalil, this was a 537 00:33:36,476 --> 00:33:39,436 Speaker 1: great talk. Yeah man, great chat. Oh man, this has 538 00:33:39,436 --> 00:33:42,956 Speaker 1: been such an amazing experience. I learned I repent from 539 00:33:42,996 --> 00:33:46,436 Speaker 1: both my reading and listening to you and this conversation 540 00:33:46,556 --> 00:33:51,356 Speaker 1: for sure. And of course yeah yeah, yeah, we got 541 00:33:51,356 --> 00:33:53,276 Speaker 1: to do this again. This was this was fun, This 542 00:33:53,436 --> 00:33:56,156 Speaker 1: was fun productive, I don't know, all right, love you, 543 00:33:56,276 --> 00:34:04,276 Speaker 1: Love you too. Some of My Best Friends Are is 544 00:34:04,316 --> 00:34:07,916 Speaker 1: a production of Pushkin Industries. The show is written and 545 00:34:08,036 --> 00:34:11,996 Speaker 1: hosted by me Lil Jibrad Muhammad and my best friend 546 00:34:12,076 --> 00:34:15,916 Speaker 1: Ben Austin. It's produced by Sheer Vincent and edited by 547 00:34:15,996 --> 00:34:22,036 Speaker 1: Karen Shakerjee. Our engineer is Martin Gonzalez, our associate editor 548 00:34:22,316 --> 00:34:27,596 Speaker 1: is Keishell Williams, and our showrunner is Sasha Matthias. Our 549 00:34:27,636 --> 00:34:32,716 Speaker 1: executive producers are Lee Tall, Molad and Mia Lobell at 550 00:34:32,756 --> 00:34:38,156 Speaker 1: Pushkin thanks to Heather Fane, Carly Migliori, John Schnars, and 551 00:34:38,316 --> 00:34:42,116 Speaker 1: Jacob Weisberg. Our theme song, Little Lily, is by fellow 552 00:34:42,236 --> 00:34:46,676 Speaker 1: chicagoan Avery R. Young from his amazing album Tubman. You 553 00:34:46,716 --> 00:34:48,956 Speaker 1: will definitely want to check out more of his music 554 00:34:49,236 --> 00:34:52,676 Speaker 1: at his website Avery R. Young dot com. You can 555 00:34:52,676 --> 00:34:56,716 Speaker 1: find Pushkin on all social platforms at Pushkin pods, and 556 00:34:56,876 --> 00:35:00,796 Speaker 1: you can sign up for our newsletter at pushkin dot fm. 557 00:35:00,836 --> 00:35:04,956 Speaker 1: To find more Pushkin podcasts, listen on the ByHeart Radio app, 558 00:35:05,316 --> 00:35:09,356 Speaker 1: Apple podcast and wherever you like to listen. If you 559 00:35:09,396 --> 00:35:13,396 Speaker 1: love this show and others from Pushkin Industries, consider becoming 560 00:35:13,556 --> 00:35:18,196 Speaker 1: a Pushnick. Pushnick is a podcast subscription that offers bonus 561 00:35:18,236 --> 00:35:22,676 Speaker 1: content and uninterrupted listening for four dollars and ninety nine 562 00:35:22,716 --> 00:35:26,596 Speaker 1: cents a month. Look for Pushnick exclusively on Apple podcast 563 00:35:26,636 --> 00:35:30,036 Speaker 1: subscriptions and most of all, I want to thank you, Khalil, 564 00:35:30,036 --> 00:35:58,996 Speaker 1: and thank you too. Mom. All right, so Khalil, let's 565 00:35:59,076 --> 00:36:01,836 Speaker 1: let's just move. We're flowing. We're flowing. So you you 566 00:36:01,996 --> 00:36:04,156 Speaker 1: you set me up. Yeah, I was like I was 567 00:36:04,156 --> 00:36:06,156 Speaker 1: out of fifth I was out of fifty cent party 568 00:36:06,236 --> 00:36:09,556 Speaker 1: last night. He smelled like we uh. I saw a 569 00:36:09,596 --> 00:36:13,676 Speaker 1: big Daddy Kane at a concert and in Manhattan. It 570 00:36:13,716 --> 00:36:17,156 Speaker 1: was amazing. No one's gonna accuse you of being a 571 00:36:17,196 --> 00:36:20,436 Speaker 1: certain Your your your bona fides are right there.