Speaker 1: I think there's something weird or.
Speaker 2: Supernatural about twins, and you know, I can't even explain it.
Speaker 1: But I remember the first time.
Speaker 2: The government came to prepped me for the Chapel trial.
Speaker 1: You have like, how many languages do you speak? And
Speaker 1: I said three, and they're like okay.
Speaker 2: English, Spanish, and the third one like twin and they're
Speaker 2: like okay, I said, because I realized over the years
Speaker 2: of my brother and I had like especially way to communicate.
Speaker 2: And you notice it more when you were apart, because
Speaker 2: I couldn't communicate with others as well as I did
Speaker 2: with him, because him and I shared so much together,
Speaker 2: so many in the same experiences in life and the
Speaker 2: day to.
Speaker 1: Day activities that he understood. I was saying thing without
Speaker 1: me say much.
Speaker 3: Hey, it's fifty and I'm Charlie Webster. This is surviving
Speaker 3: El Chapel, the Twins who brought down a drug lord
Speaker 3: Season two.
Speaker 4: L Chapel's escape was so much bigger than the Florist Twins.
Speaker 3: It was labeled a national embarrassment to Mexico and the
Speaker 3: then president and U. K.
Speaker 5: Penyonieto.
Speaker 3: He and his government were already out of favor due
Speaker 3: to increasing allegations of corruption and violence.
Speaker 4: El Chapel escaping mint that it got real between the
Speaker 4: US and Mexico, especially as the US had been pushing
Speaker 4: for El Chapel's extradition for exactly this reason. It was
Speaker 4: a symbol of deep corruption in Mexico.
Speaker 3: At the same time, locals in Sinaloa were optimistic. News
Speaker 3: of El Chapo's return prompted parties and celebratory gunfire. While
Speaker 3: El Chapo had been in prison, his son Ivan Archivaldo
Speaker 3: had been running the cartel. Locals felt he was too
Speaker 3: unstable and El Chapo's return would bring back order to
Speaker 3: the region. He was already viewed by many as a
Speaker 3: Robin Hood figure. Almost immediately, the Mexican government put out
Speaker 3: a three point eight million dollar reward for information leading
Speaker 3: to El Chapo's capture.
Speaker 4: Three months later, El Chapo met with Sean Pinn for
Speaker 4: that Rolling Stones in Tea, you know exactly the one
Speaker 4: I'm talking about. El Chapel's return strengthen this cartel's power.
Speaker 4: He was known as the internal future for the Florist Twins.
Speaker 4: Even more uncertainty, he thought El Chapo would never be
Speaker 4: caught again.
Speaker 2: I cannot believe he actually pulls that off, you know,
Speaker 2: And I think that that alone probably.
Speaker 1: Have the cartel like in uh situational power, you know.
Speaker 2: I think that that is cable is bigger than just
Speaker 2: him escaping and fill the cartel when it should have
Speaker 2: been on its way out, it had just you know
Speaker 2: a little more forced to it. You tend to feel
Speaker 2: like that that's the team you want to be with.
Speaker 1: When they get away with things like that.
Speaker 6: Did it make you question what team you were on
Speaker 6: in not in that merriment na month.
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm gonna tell you something. I would say
Speaker 2: I was impressed. I mean, but no, he's on the
Speaker 2: losing side. Everyone who's in that life is on the
Speaker 2: losing side. I don't care who you are. I don't
Speaker 2: care how many people you have with. It's the only
Speaker 2: a matter of time.
Speaker 7: Were you considered by him escaping and the continuous power
Speaker 7: of the cartel, but it made it more dangerous for
Speaker 7: you and your family?
Speaker 6: Were they more likely to come after you? Then?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Of course, of course they're still like real strong.
Speaker 2: But then sometimes I would think that would be scary
Speaker 2: if they were, if you thought they were gone, if
Speaker 2: you thought they didn't exist, I think it would be
Speaker 2: worse because sometimes they exist like if you thought they
Speaker 2: lost their power and they just were completely superior. I
Speaker 2: think that's what happened, like in Columbia, Like Okay, they
Speaker 2: didn't have popular school war anymore, but that doesn't mean
Speaker 2: that they weren't people as powerful as him or with
Speaker 2: that kind of you know, controlling power, like in place
Speaker 2: you know where maybe it was a lot more people,
Speaker 2: but they were still there everything. When they're like hiding
Speaker 2: in the shadows, it's kind of scary for me, you know,
Speaker 2: to think that us. It's kind of you're that sense
Speaker 2: of security, all sense of security, you think like, Okay,
Speaker 2: they're gone.
Speaker 1: For me, I'm the same person like they're not gone.
Speaker 1: I know they're not gonna. I know they're there.
Speaker 2: At that point, there's one thing I need for sure,
Speaker 2: that the Mexican government was gonna be like, you know, America,
Speaker 2: you know, USA, do whatever you want to catch this
Speaker 2: guy like Retir. And from a business perspective, me being
Speaker 2: in the drug business and me still have been down
Speaker 2: there at that time, I would have been like, yeah,
Speaker 2: Li's set him up because he's causing too much shrug,
Speaker 2: Like the whole this whole drug business doesn't revolve around
Speaker 2: one person. It's not all about Chop or all about
Speaker 2: my there's it's a big, you know, community of people
Speaker 2: that it takes to keep this going. And and he
Speaker 2: was just would be a person that was just creating
Speaker 2: too many problems.
Speaker 3: Do you get the impression right that the way it's
Speaker 3: publicized is if Chapa is the.
Speaker 6: God and that controls everything.
Speaker 2: I mean, he's a major figure, you know, but there's
Speaker 2: a lot of people in this business. But you know,
Speaker 2: like another thing that where I feel like like my
Speaker 2: brother and I like knowing him in a different level
Speaker 2: and not just like you know, the more personal level
Speaker 2: that I've seen him being like, I've seen his flaws,
Speaker 2: you know, I've seen things that I disagree with, the
Speaker 2: things I didn't like, and like to imagine again that
Speaker 2: people died every time they were chasing him around. You know,
Speaker 2: he left ran away and people were left there to
Speaker 2: fight from and die, you know.
Speaker 1: And then the thing like, you know, many.
Speaker 2: People during those six months he was free, how I mean,
Speaker 2: people probably lost their lives protecting him while he's invading
Speaker 2: law enforcement.
Speaker 1: Then he gets.
Speaker 3: Caught on January eighth, twenty sixteen, tipped off in parts
Speaker 3: after a large order of Tacos Mexican naval marines surrounded
Speaker 3: a house in Los Mitos, on the coast of Sineloa.
Speaker 5: They've been scoping out the house for a while.
Speaker 3: Phone interceptions suggested someone high up in the cartel was coming.
Speaker 3: In the early hours of the morning, a huge gunfight
Speaker 3: broke out as the marines entered the house. Five of
Speaker 3: el proposed men were killed in the gunfight, as well
Speaker 3: as one marine. When they finally entered the house, El
Speaker 3: Chapo had once again vanished. He had two tunnels built
Speaker 3: into the house, one a decoy tunnel under the fridge
Speaker 3: designed to confuse officials, the other behind a mirror.
Speaker 5: This was the one he fled through.
Speaker 3: It was almost the same length as the tunnel he
Speaker 3: escaped from prison. In The tunnel behind the mirror led
Speaker 3: to a street right near a walmart. El Chapo was
Speaker 3: with his most ruthless assassin, Ivancholo, was simply Elchollo. The
Speaker 3: two of them stole a taxi at gunpoint and sped away.
Speaker 3: The cab driver flagged down another cabby to radio that
Speaker 3: he'd been carjacked. The Mexican authorities were listening. El Chapo
Speaker 3: and Elchollo decided to ditch the car to avoid capture.
Speaker 3: At the next traffic light, they approached a red Ford
Speaker 3: focus inside an elderly woman, her daughter, and five year
Speaker 3: old grandson. Achollo pulled out his weapon and forced them
Speaker 3: out of the car, but not before giving the woman
Speaker 3: her purse. He and Chappo got in, but by that
Speaker 3: time the authorities had caught up in a literal Mexican standoff.
Speaker 5: El Chapo told the police that they would all die.
Speaker 3: The cartel was readying a small army of forty assassins
Speaker 3: to rescue him. The police took Al Chapo to a
Speaker 3: local motel, the Hotel d'Eu, to wait for backup. The
Speaker 3: Hotel duh is not just any old motel. It's a
Speaker 3: sex motel which could be rented at the cost of
Speaker 3: three hundred paysos sixteen US dollars for six hours. There's
Speaker 3: a famous photo online that you can look at of
Speaker 3: a very filthy El Chapo sitting handcuffed on beige satin
Speaker 3: sheets in room fifty one. El Chapo desperately tried to
Speaker 3: bribe the police to let him go, but it was
Speaker 3: too late. Back up arrived and he was taken by
Speaker 3: helicopter to Mexico City President Nieto tweeted, mission accomplished.
Speaker 5: We got him.
Speaker 1: He gets re arrested January eighth or whatever.
Speaker 2: And yet like within a week, the governments at my
Speaker 2: prison facility and I'm signing the extradition papers.
Speaker 1: Capital was.
Speaker 2: That was a real like like shocking, you know, moment
Speaker 2: to be signing those papers.
Speaker 1: You know, we hear like.
Speaker 2: We hear a bar capone and you have those bad
Speaker 2: guys like pom Pobscawachapo was.
Speaker 1: It was like that moment you know in history.
Speaker 2: That I never thought I would be a part of
Speaker 2: the call.
Speaker 3: That heat recorded of al Chappo was the key piece
Speaker 3: of evidence that the US government was using to convict
Speaker 3: l Chapo. So Pete had to be the one to
Speaker 3: sign the extradition papers.
Speaker 8: For certain people in that case, like Chapo was byd
Speaker 8: Once they're arrested, they they put a package together, you
Speaker 8: know together. You know, the American government would requests or
Speaker 8: formally requests extradition of a of a person, and the
Speaker 8: Office of External Affairs will handle most of that process.
Speaker 8: So you submit certain papers like evidence that they.
Speaker 9: Have and and sometimes they want to know, they want
Speaker 9: to know something, they want to ask a couple of
Speaker 9: questions about you know, you're basically your testimony, right, you know,
Speaker 9: just I guess, just to do their due diligence, and
Speaker 9: before they extradized someone that that you know, they have
Speaker 9: enough sufficient evidence, you know, to request them.
Speaker 3: For the US to seek the extradition of someone from abroad,
Speaker 3: they have to put in a formal request supported by
Speaker 3: sufficient and certified evidence that a crime has been committed.
Speaker 3: So when did you find out that you've got to
Speaker 3: stand up and testify against him?
Speaker 2: He went to Torown November twenty eighteen. It was just
Speaker 2: right before exactly a year to the date, like like
Speaker 2: November twenty seventeen. They came to see me in just
Speaker 2: as a kind of a pre interview of how I
Speaker 2: felt about testifying and was I going to be able
Speaker 2: to be a good witness.
Speaker 3: So they come to see you as in the prison
Speaker 3: and then yes, you then like, how's it work?
Speaker 2: Yeah, they comes to my attorney was present, the Chicago officers, president,
Speaker 2: a prosecutor, Agentine, and here comes a team to the
Speaker 2: New York team.
Speaker 1: There's like eight of 'em, eight prosecutors.
Speaker 6: Why is it in like a special read more?
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like it's actually our visiting room sort our
Speaker 2: visit room.
Speaker 1: They come in.
Speaker 2: And and you walk into the hun there's like all
Speaker 2: these people there and you're just like, it's so awkward.
Speaker 1: And introduce themselves and can't tell you what they're there for.
Speaker 2: I just just wanna go over some of the things
Speaker 2: about my case and ask your questions, you know, like
Speaker 2: random questions, like I tell you, I'll never forget that.
Speaker 1: She asks me, so, how many languages do you speak?
Speaker 2: I would say I'm fluent in English, Spanish, and twin.
Speaker 2: The prosecutor look at me, like, what do you mean.
Speaker 2: I'm like, oh, my brother and I we have a
Speaker 2: special way to communicate.
Speaker 1: With each other.
Speaker 10: Right.
Speaker 3: That was US attorney Andrea Goldborg asking Pete what languages
Speaker 3: he speaks, English, Spanish and twin. If you remember, back
Speaker 3: in episode four, Jay talked about having to relearn how
Speaker 3: to communicate after being separated for the first time from
Speaker 3: his identical twin brother Pete. Twin talk is actually not uncommon.
Speaker 3: It's called cryptophasia, a form of autonomous language, and happens
Speaker 3: in up to forty percent of all twins. While the
Speaker 3: siblings caldn't understand each other, just fine, no one else
Speaker 3: will have any idea what they're talking about. In the
Speaker 3: prison visiting room, Pete was surrounded by the team of
Speaker 3: attorneys the government had assembled for the El Chapo case.
Speaker 3: Pete worked closely with assistant US attorneys Andrew Goldbarg and
Speaker 3: Adam Fels, both known and celebrator for taking down some
Speaker 3: of the world's most renowned drug lords and terrorists, including
Speaker 3: Colombian kingpins Fan Carlos Ramirez and Al Loco.
Speaker 2: I was fortunate, you know, to have been chosen to
Speaker 2: work with Adam Fellas.
Speaker 1: Yeah, all my respect.
Speaker 2: He was like super intelligent, you know, it's so made
Speaker 2: me feel comfortable, you know, patient with me.
Speaker 1: He understood my situation. He was like the.
Speaker 2: Prosecutor was in charge of like my peppery mean, he
Speaker 2: was gonna be the one question in me talent to
Speaker 2: people like you could touch and talking to him out
Speaker 2: They're like they're like they sent the best m h.
Speaker 3: He was the one on the recording of the phone
Speaker 3: call with Chapo, so he was the only one who
Speaker 3: would need to testify. He spent a year prepping for
Speaker 3: the trial, primarily with Adam Fels. Each month, the team
Speaker 3: would stop by and go over the details of the
Speaker 3: case and what Pete was going to say. They did
Speaker 3: mock trials and did as much as they could to
Speaker 3: prepare Pete for potential cross examination from el Chapo's attorneys. Finally,
Speaker 3: as Christmas of twenty eighteen approached, Pete had to make
Speaker 3: his way across the country to el Chapo's trial in
Speaker 3: New York.
Speaker 2: The last time I seen the prosecutors in my prison,
Speaker 2: they're like, Okay, next time I'll see you will be
Speaker 2: you know, New York. That's nerve working to feel that
Speaker 2: the reality of it against kind of step in and
Speaker 2: I'm like constantly anxious, like it brought so much like
Speaker 2: stressed me and it shouldn't have, but he did. I
Speaker 2: can't sleep, I can't I think, I can't not hungry,
Speaker 2: I'm not you know, ain't about it every day.
Speaker 3: Like what do you think drove that overwhelming feeling? Do
Speaker 3: you think it was the anticipation and anxiety, the fear.
Speaker 2: Like everything and everything all into one, like just everything
Speaker 2: like like those feelings and like of course like cleaning
Speaker 2: with my own emotions, like thinking about even my dad,
Speaker 2: like like this is the biggest form of mentioning you
Speaker 2: could do.
Speaker 6: You know, did his words come in your hat.
Speaker 2: Of course, a lot of people cooperate, and you know,
Speaker 2: they never see a court room, you know, and I
Speaker 2: thought that was going to be the case. And it
Speaker 2: was so nervous, and I remember them finally kind of
Speaker 2: telling me, like get ready that morning.
Speaker 1: It's like seven in the morning. They get ready.
Speaker 6: I told you this, did they come and.
Speaker 1: The staff comes and told you, like get.
Speaker 2: Ready, and the phones are off and they do, you know,
Speaker 2: certain things for security, so they don't come to like ninth.
Speaker 2: Those hours were like.
Speaker 6: I gotta come out torture. What were you doing like pasting?
Speaker 2: Yeah, Patian, just you know, and they come up and
Speaker 2: pull it through bees and they shackle you and they
Speaker 2: put you in the back of a armored vehicle with
Speaker 2: the windows covered, and they always pick like a nearby
Speaker 2: like airfield, so you know, on the road for a
Speaker 2: long period of time. And then they pull you up
Speaker 2: to the private jet and there's more agents that are
Speaker 2: waiting for your marshals, marshall agents trying in charge of
Speaker 2: your protection, and we cram up, We all cramb up
Speaker 2: into the little chat and it was the most uncomfortable
Speaker 2: five and anine a half hours, like like sitting there
Speaker 2: like unable like to stretch my fear anything, and being
Speaker 2: sick to my stomach, you know, like nervous just thinking
Speaker 2: about what's to come, thinking about my family, make so
Speaker 2: many emotions.
Speaker 6: Were you like shoulders to shoulder with.
Speaker 2: The yeah with that end, and you know, one in
Speaker 2: front of me is his feet offstairs down in front
Speaker 2: of me. I can't even you know, sit comfortable, and
Speaker 2: I'm shackled, so it makes it a lot more uncomfortable.
Speaker 2: They usually give you, like, you know, some street clothes
Speaker 2: like to travel because you know, the pilot doesn't know
Speaker 2: who you are. You know, no one knows who you are.
Speaker 2: And I'm just like.
Speaker 1: In some regular sweats.
Speaker 2: There's this long ride and we find to somewhere like
Speaker 2: Connecticut or something, and then we have a long riding
Speaker 2: traffic and I'm shackled by listen like I'm already tired
Speaker 2: of sitting and my back hurts, and I'm anxious and
Speaker 2: I'm worried, and I'm sick to my stomach, and I
Speaker 2: have an ate and they're playing like the just awful
Speaker 2: classic music. I can't look out the window, you know,
Speaker 2: and it's making it's felt like torture, like I should
Speaker 2: have got time off. Just just sitting in the back
Speaker 2: of that try, I felt like I told him, I said,
Speaker 2: I need to tell you guys something.
Speaker 1: I said. The rider took what the kidnappers was better
Speaker 1: than this. They just left on me. It just you know,
Speaker 1: I think the stress was already kind of built up.
Speaker 6: How many do you reckon we're in that convoy in that.
Speaker 2: Kind of probably twelve at least martials And then you
Speaker 2: get there, I'm like, where are they going to put me?
Speaker 2: And then, you know, every prisoner understands what it is
Speaker 2: to be transferred from prison to prison into another unit
Speaker 2: or whatever.
Speaker 1: You're like, you're going straight to the whole, you know.
Speaker 1: So I thought about that, You're going to share to
Speaker 1: the whole?
Speaker 6: And is that what happened every time then? Anywhere?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Most of the time. Yeah.
Speaker 5: So there are a.
Speaker 3: Few different reasons you might end up in solitary confinements,
Speaker 3: or as Pete refers to.
Speaker 5: It as the shoe or the hole.
Speaker 3: Disciplinary reasons is just one of them. Often prisoners are
Speaker 3: temporarily put in solitary confinement for administrative reasons, for protection,
Speaker 3: or while being transferred.
Speaker 5: That's why Pete ended up in solitary a lot.
Speaker 3: Pete was taken to MCC New York, the same prison
Speaker 3: Jay was taken to when the twins were first separated
Speaker 3: because of the billboards. If you remember, he described it
Speaker 3: as the worst place and told us that prisoners prepared
Speaker 3: the food, adding a couple of dead roachors for flavor.
Speaker 3: It's where Jeffrey Epstein was held, and as Pete arrived,
Speaker 3: it also happened to be where El Chapo was being held.
Speaker 1: So we going on.
Speaker 2: They put in I'm not sure where I'm at, but
Speaker 2: they're walking on these long hallways and it's dirty and ugly,
Speaker 2: and they come into the receiving area of the MCC.
Speaker 2: I remember the Marshall came up to the glass window
Speaker 2: of MCC New York here and he's like bangs like
Speaker 2: on the windows. They have like a sliding bulletproof plast
Speaker 2: store and it's like almost like a drive through kind
Speaker 2: like that can help you.
Speaker 1: And then.
Speaker 2: There's a woman there, a short like Latin like woman
Speaker 2: Puerto Rican or something, and she purses his ass out
Speaker 2: like what the fuck do you want? What the fuck
Speaker 2: give me your ID like talk something like that. I'm like,
Speaker 2: I'm in New York. That's for sure, you know what
Speaker 2: I'm saying. Like I'm in New York and they pull
Speaker 2: you in and you get that, you know, the mcc uniform.
Speaker 2: Mcc uniform just like blue guarb, like no pants, pull shirt,
Speaker 2: and there's a box with like prison clothes, you know,
Speaker 2: like when you go out, they'll put your stuff in
Speaker 2: a box and you got to get fresh clothes in
Speaker 2: fresh clothes, you know, press clothed you leave out and
Speaker 2: they'll clothes you come in. You can't take what they'll
Speaker 2: give you those he left behind, you know, for security reasons.
Speaker 2: They want to you know, which closer or whatever. And
Speaker 2: they're like a cubicles like like like locker cuba open.
Speaker 1: Just open a little square shelving and things.
Speaker 6: Like that and like yeah, kind of square shovels against
Speaker 6: the wall.
Speaker 2: And I'm like, we'll flow chop one. They're like, that's
Speaker 2: his clothes right there. And I was like that felt
Speaker 2: weird to see if because they put mine right next
Speaker 2: to him, you know, like we're probably the same size.
Speaker 6: Oh my god, that must have felt so strange.
Speaker 1: That was weird, Like you have to know, like, man,
Speaker 1: we're in the same building. I think that's weird.
Speaker 6: Did it feel kind of more reopen, you like.
Speaker 2: But then his clothes, Yeah, I mean, of course it
Speaker 2: didn't feel like not only they're his clothes, that means
Speaker 2: that he's right in the same building with me.
Speaker 1: It brings back that little anxiety a little bit.
Speaker 2: It's such a you know things feeling that overcomes you,
Speaker 2: that you feel you feel over and over and over.
Speaker 2: They walked me down, they moved me through the building,
Speaker 2: and I kind of get the feeling like I'm going
Speaker 2: to the the special unit in MCAC, like the.
Speaker 1: Winsick unit, and that at least it was a little
Speaker 1: bit better than the shoe.
Speaker 2: And you know, there's a couple of people that I
Speaker 2: already knew that was in another prison was before, and
Speaker 2: a couple of people that knew my brother. It makes
Speaker 2: it less kind of like awkward, you know. And they
Speaker 2: put you in the CEW and they put me with
Speaker 2: uself with someone else familiarly with. Yeah, so someone I
Speaker 2: knew from prison. Yeah, he was a he was a
Speaker 2: terrorist and he was accused of terrorism then and he
Speaker 2: was going to get sentenced.
Speaker 3: Turns out, for the first time, Pete didn't end up
Speaker 3: in solitary as part of his transfer. Instead, he ended
Speaker 3: up cell mates with a terrorist, Abdul Rahman Albana. Sawi
Speaker 3: pled guilty to planning a major terrorist attack on New
Speaker 3: York City. He said he aspired to create the next
Speaker 3: nine to eleven by bombing Times Square, the New York
Speaker 3: City subway system, and shooting people at concerts. He was
Speaker 3: sentenced to forty years in prison. The day Pete went
Speaker 3: to testify against al Chapo.
Speaker 2: That very morning, I have a legal visit at MCC
Speaker 2: and my attorney's there and the prosecutors are there and
Speaker 2: we're kind of going through everything again. Yeah, I hear
Speaker 2: him talking then. For that was like the last time
Speaker 2: I wasn't get to see my attorney because they're going
Speaker 2: to move me to like their safe house where I
Speaker 2: was going to continue that the de briefing, you know,
Speaker 2: and the prep just very stressful. That Saturday, they come
Speaker 2: and they get me ready and they the Marshalls like
Speaker 2: take me to the safe house where I'm meeting the
Speaker 2: prosecutors and the agents and we're doing the prepping, going
Speaker 2: over stuff, and I remember like one of those moments.
Speaker 1: Like we touched you know a lot of them, like
Speaker 1: little moments.
Speaker 2: That really like you know, the hurt to talk about
Speaker 2: stuff of them, my dad, stuff of them, my brother,
Speaker 2: And were they asking you those things? Yeah, they're like, look, man,
Speaker 2: this conversation come up about your dad. Yeah, like they
Speaker 2: might come up, like we we just got to walk
Speaker 2: you through it because they're gonna come up there.
Speaker 1: Like if I was them, I could use this, you know.
Speaker 3: And so they were trying to cover every single thing
Speaker 3: that might come up and try and make sure you preparetriol.
Speaker 1: And they were good at that.
Speaker 2: Like I like to teach that travel had great lawyers,
Speaker 2: but I think they had the government had better ones.
Speaker 2: I remember like that Sunday. It was like like Pete,
Speaker 2: the next time I see, it's gonna be in the courtroom.
Speaker 2: And I was like, no, no way, Like I don't
Speaker 2: think I can't do this, Like you got this thing
Speaker 2: for me, Like I can't do this.
Speaker 1: I don't think I can help you. And then like
Speaker 1: you got it.
Speaker 2: Man, you're gonna do. You're gonna be good, just going in,
Speaker 2: just tell the truth and you're gonna be fine. And
Speaker 2: the things you you did, you didn't And they're embarrassing
Speaker 2: to me though, you know they are.
Speaker 1: I didn't sleep Someday night. It was rough.
Speaker 2: And it was rough, and I thought I was gonna
Speaker 2: be able to wear some simple clothes. You don't get
Speaker 2: to do that. You're just wearing your regular prison and
Speaker 2: that whatever they give you, that's what you're wearing.
Speaker 6: It's a call.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you going there with some prison guards that got
Speaker 2: like rips in them, and that's what I wore, whatever
Speaker 2: they give it, you know. And I'm sick, like really sick,
Speaker 2: like I'm like mentally like just not feeling like myself.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: It sucks to be in a situation like that. I
Speaker 2: remember them coming and get me. I was so like
Speaker 2: stressed out, man, I felt my knees felt weak, and.
Speaker 6: What did your buddies feel like?
Speaker 1: Weak and tense and not healthy like.
Speaker 2: I remember feeling like that when I first got kidnapped,
Speaker 2: like where my knees got weak and I wanted to run.
Speaker 2: I don't know where to run where, but I wanted
Speaker 2: to run somewhere and it just felt like that upset
Speaker 2: stomach like just.
Speaker 1: And they come and.
Speaker 2: They come get me in there takes me back out
Speaker 2: the way I came in, and that there's a box
Speaker 2: with travels clothes.
Speaker 1: Again, I see it. I know he's gonna be transported to.
Speaker 2: I remember going up to the Brooklyn Courthouse and they
Speaker 2: had tons of marshalls that day. It's Monday morning, tons
Speaker 2: of marshals, like everywhere you live. It's cold out too.
Speaker 2: I don't have jack and cold. I'll see you're just
Speaker 2: in your prison. Yeah, it's just in its cold in
Speaker 2: New York in December. You know, I'm probably colding on
Speaker 2: my own already because I'm stressed out and my nerves
Speaker 2: are kicking it.
Speaker 1: And they take me up to like the fourth floor.
Speaker 2: We're going like up the backstairs, and I remember aluminum
Speaker 2: like rating super playing in the house, you know, and
Speaker 2: whenever they were walking into a people that are like
Speaker 2: the marshal will come and blocked us all the doors,
Speaker 2: say everybody stop normal and while they walk you by,
Speaker 2: and you know, we're using it the doors, the back staircase,
Speaker 2: you know, on avoiding the elevators. I could look out
Speaker 2: those windows and see like the street of that familiar
Speaker 2: like picture where you were seeing the news, but instead
Speaker 2: of you looking at the courthouse, I'm you know, I
Speaker 2: was looking at them. And they take me to that
Speaker 2: where they have jury rooms really nice the other chairs
Speaker 2: and they sit you down and you and your twelve
Speaker 2: agents there they're protecting. And the way before we left
Speaker 2: the prison though, they they grabbed me a sacked lunch
Speaker 2: and they gave it to me.
Speaker 1: Here be hungry.
Speaker 2: Four pieces of bread and two pieces of cheese, fell
Speaker 2: the fruit, the milk.
Speaker 1: Sitting there, maybe hours went by, like waiting.
Speaker 2: I remember on eleven thirty he comes, you know, the prosecutors,
Speaker 2: and they're like, we're gonna bring you in. You ready, No,
Speaker 2: I'm not ready, No way, I'm not ready. I don't
Speaker 2: want it to You can be fine, okayment don't. I
Speaker 2: remember seeing at him Fellas and them and seeing on
Speaker 2: them Fellas, and.
Speaker 1: He just looked like different. You know, a shower, does
Speaker 1: you good?
Speaker 2: I wanted to tell him because he just looked like
Speaker 2: a different person, you know, well, like Fresherman smart.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: They were calling him the candidate, so he had that
Speaker 2: kind of demeanor where he could I could see him
Speaker 2: be a politician. Got me admiring his nice suit too.
Speaker 2: He's like, we're gonna come get you and you're gonna
Speaker 2: be fine. Okay, I've seen a bit.
Speaker 1: Oh my, did I.
Speaker 2: Just feel so sick after that? I was just I mean,
Speaker 2: just rethinking about it. I was just sitting there, you know,
Speaker 2: under leather, reclining, just rocking back and forth, standing up
Speaker 2: and walking, and the marshals in sensitive like sit down here,
Speaker 2: making me nervous, like you're nervous.
Speaker 1: Like really, And.
Speaker 2: A while later they're like, okay, come on, let's go.
Speaker 2: You ready, guys going? So then everyone gets up, like
Speaker 2: let's go. We're going out to the court.
Speaker 1: They go on.
Speaker 2: They closed to make sure nobody's coming out any elevators
Speaker 2: or doors. Here we go back up the staircase and
Speaker 2: we're going up you know, six floors I believe, like
Speaker 2: to the tenth floor where the court was happening.
Speaker 1: And we're on our way up and we make it
Speaker 1: to like floor number eight. No go back, go back,
Speaker 1: go back, Yeah, go back, go back, go back, go back.
Speaker 1: Everyone go back.
Speaker 2: Get it?
Speaker 1: They said, wait, they had to wait.
Speaker 2: And here I go back, sitting in the courting in
Speaker 2: that jury room again. I pissed a thousand times. I think,
Speaker 2: you know, just none stopped going to bad job you NEOs.
Speaker 2: In my mind, I'm going just to prayer, been saying
Speaker 2: to praying, like just you know, it's just talking to
Speaker 2: God on my own, just ask him to be with
Speaker 2: me and them. Fellas comes back that, look, we got
Speaker 2: a little backed up, but we're working on it. We're
Speaker 2: gonna make sure we we're trying to get you into Okay.
Speaker 10: He goes like an hour and a half goals by it.
Speaker 10: It's like near four o'clock. I've been sitting in this
Speaker 10: room stressed out since nine in the morning. Another hour ago.
Speaker 2: Somebody nothing like five thirty or something, six o'clock almost,
Speaker 2: and he comes back and says, pee, looking man, I'm sorry, yeah,
Speaker 2: we're yeah, we're not the court during them for tomorrow.
Speaker 2: I was like, what I just sat here in this
Speaker 2: torturing myself all day and here we go again, back
Speaker 2: to the prison. Could I drive back to the MTC?
Speaker 6: What was that night?
Speaker 2: Like?
Speaker 1: I couldn't handle that no more so.
Speaker 2: What I did is they give you like an allergy
Speaker 2: medication and you take one and that makes you like sleepy.
Speaker 1: But I prayed and I slept. I will up here
Speaker 1: a lot better that to not ready to do it,
Speaker 1: but better.
Speaker 2: And we go through the same process, get my back, lunch,
Speaker 2: get my torn prison guards, and we go back and
Speaker 2: I sit again in the same room. There's way anxious again.
Speaker 2: But then I'm seeing this time is for real and
Speaker 2: hours go back again. I don't know, maybe eleven o'clock
Speaker 2: or so, they come into like okay, let's go, it's time,
Speaker 2: and here we go again. Same a team go close, door,
Speaker 2: moving out there, you know, and they stop.
Speaker 1: Again like they'll go back. I'm like, what you're driving
Speaker 1: me bananas? Like go back, go back, go back. Oh
Speaker 1: oh my god.
Speaker 2: I was like, what the hell are they doing?
Speaker 1: I would say, like around one o'clock or so when
Speaker 1: they come again.
Speaker 6: What did you feel like at that point?
Speaker 2: I right, just like I felt like just now myself,
Speaker 2: like nigga, I'm like, I've been living with the anxieties
Speaker 2: for since I flew into this place, you know, and
Speaker 2: it's been uncomfortable and kind of horrific to be in
Speaker 2: this moment, but you got to live through it for
Speaker 2: you don't understand what I'm saying. If I could explain it,
Speaker 2: maybe like receiving your master's or your PhD or college
Speaker 2: green walking on State and things so good with the
Speaker 2: exact opposite is what I kind of could feel like,
Speaker 2: and here we go again this and I walked in
Speaker 2: the last time, I remember feeling like, are we really
Speaker 2: going but as we're going up the stairs, you know
Speaker 2: it's bright. It's sunny out, super sunny that day. You
Speaker 2: know it's cold, so but super soon the hallway though,
Speaker 2: the stair kise is cold. I'm freezing, like it's freezing.
Speaker 2: And this time I make it like past the ninth floor,
Speaker 2: I'm like, oh shit, like this is real. Well, I
Speaker 2: could feel like like breathing came like a little bit
Speaker 2: short and deeper, you know, And they open the door
Speaker 2: and the path towards the courtroom is narrow, I kind
Speaker 2: of like narrow, and it's so clean. It's like white
Speaker 2: and bright, like the way you think about you open
Speaker 2: your eyes and you're seeing heaving, Like that's how bright
Speaker 2: it is. Cause the whole floor is surrounded by windows
Speaker 2: and the windows are open, you know, no shading. The
Speaker 2: sun is shining that day, and there's marshals lined up
Speaker 2: all around the all down the hallway like like they're
Speaker 2: just standing there. I remember walking on the path and
Speaker 2: they're kind of walking me kind of fast, and you're
Speaker 2: just kind of like just walking like I have no custom,
Speaker 2: just you know, walking through this narrow hallway. And then
Speaker 2: I could see the courtroom door like through the lot
Speaker 2: and I remember it feeling like horrible taking that first
Speaker 2: step into the court room and looking but not really looking,
Speaker 2: you know, and they kind of like guide me right
Speaker 2: into the witness seat which is off of the laft
Speaker 2: like that, and they just like sit down and and
Speaker 2: I kind of sit down, thatch. And I haven't even
Speaker 2: really got you know, looked up to get a glimpse
Speaker 2: of the court room yet, but I can. I know
Speaker 2: there's tons of people in the courtroom still. And I
Speaker 2: remember the pro the marshall leaned over and he whispered
Speaker 2: to me like just remember, you know. I just remember,
Speaker 2: he ain't shit here, he can't do nothing here. And
Speaker 2: then I sit down and I look up and it's
Speaker 2: just like people, like just everyone just walking around. I
Speaker 2: could see the the benches where people said to view
Speaker 2: the case. I could see him, and I could see
Speaker 2: the cameras everywhere, and I hear them saying. I hear
Speaker 2: them talk to something about like the overflow area. Now
Speaker 2: I'm aware that there's more people in the view, like
Speaker 2: viewing it from outside the courtrooma and I could see
Speaker 2: different people and right away I could see, like, you know,
Speaker 2: a woman off the back of undem and she like looking,
Speaker 2: you know, cause it's far. It feels like it's a
Speaker 2: block away, like from the witness seat to the door
Speaker 2: to the to their main natrance. It seems like a long.
Speaker 1: In a way. I could see it. And then she
Speaker 1: grabs her binoculars. I'm like, the fuck.
Speaker 2: I see h you know, someone in the suit kind
Speaker 2: of looking at me and I he's walking towards and
Speaker 2: I could see him and he's smiling. He comes towards
Speaker 2: and he's like, he just gives me their thumbs up,
Speaker 2: and I see it's my brother's attorney, and I know
Speaker 2: what he's saying to just because I've dealt with it.
Speaker 1: I've dealt with people like it so much.
Speaker 2: In that situation, I could see him telling me, like,
Speaker 2: you look just like your brother, you know from his demeanor,
Speaker 2: like you look just like your brother, because I never
Speaker 2: met him personally. With my know he gives me a
Speaker 2: done up and you know he's representing.
Speaker 3: Chapel Jay's attorney, Jeffrey Litman, had previously defended wait for it,
Speaker 3: John Gotti Junior, the son of the John Gotti who
Speaker 3: sam Me the Bull cooperated against. Yes, the same Sami
Speaker 3: the Bull who was Pete sellmate of course, Sammy the
Speaker 3: Bulls cooperation against John Gotti was what led to Jay's
Speaker 3: epiphany that he too could cooperate. Jeffrey Littman is a
Speaker 3: top defense lawyer, and after working for John Gotti Junior
Speaker 3: and Jay Flores, he ended up defending alf Chappo.
Speaker 6: How did you make that that made you feel like that?
Speaker 6: Your brothers?
Speaker 3: It's a he ended up representing our chape that you're
Speaker 3: stood up against. Were you worried that he could use
Speaker 3: stuff that he knew about you against you? It seems strange,
Speaker 3: right that he that he could represent day and then
Speaker 3: he can go and represent the person that you cooperated against.
Speaker 6: It just seems to be weird.
Speaker 1: I can't say that.
Speaker 2: I don't think that for mister Ligman that he didn't
Speaker 2: get to be a successful lawyer by doing stuff like that.
Speaker 1: I don't think that even Chapel would be worth him
Speaker 1: doing it.
Speaker 2: I think his reputation is more important, you know, because
Speaker 2: if I can't trust some long contrust that you know,
Speaker 2: I think that he has to be there's gotta be
Speaker 2: some form of professionalism in that world. And at the
Speaker 2: same time, everything he knows my prosecutors now because they
Speaker 2: acted as an attorney for my brother and I as well.
Speaker 2: But still it is a little weird because you know
Speaker 2: it's like my you know, you know my wife. You know,
Speaker 2: it's certaintien. He gets me the tongues up. And then
Speaker 2: I see in Jai Goberg and everyone's like dressing the
Speaker 2: nine's like I don't even recognize no more. Everyone looks
Speaker 2: different to me, like in their best clothes. And I'm
Speaker 2: looking around. I'm nervous. I'm like I can't find my
Speaker 2: come to a spot. I'm cold, and my mouth is
Speaker 2: so dry. I'm drinking like they have like small waters
Speaker 2: like right off to my within my reach. I'm like
Speaker 2: just drinking the water. They're not helping me. And the
Speaker 2: martial like you wanna breast mean or something you want
Speaker 2: like he see it, Like I said, my moth so dry,
Speaker 2: and it's just nothing was helping me. My mouth was
Speaker 2: I've never been experience that kind of like drying off
Speaker 2: in my in my life. And I'm just like, oh,
Speaker 2: what's gonna happen? And I could see like the defense
Speaker 2: table off to the left and the court rooms nothing
Speaker 2: like you see on TV. The courtrooms set up a
Speaker 2: little different. Word you do have the aisles with the
Speaker 2: benches for the audience for the people, right.
Speaker 1: Okay, and the little r you know, the little door.
Speaker 2: But there's just two beautiful long tables, like a couple
Speaker 2: of long tables like in the front, and then behind,
Speaker 2: you know, behind it another long tables are one of
Speaker 2: 'em for the defense defense table, and the other one's
Speaker 2: a government's tables. Beautiful leather chairs and you know, and
Speaker 2: beautiful wood everywhere, and.
Speaker 1: I could see like the judge's.
Speaker 2: Seat, and you know, I have to kind of like
Speaker 2: look up a little bit, and the court reporters right
Speaker 2: sitting right in front of me.
Speaker 1: And s slowly slowly.
Speaker 2: I see the people like coming into the court room,
Speaker 2: more of the prosecutors more, you know, I see my
Speaker 2: Boxcutity and just waves at me from padway, and he
Speaker 2: seems distant. You know. There's such a big court room
Speaker 2: and the people are staring, you know, pondering, and I'm like,
Speaker 2: at this point, like my nerves are the worst they've
Speaker 2: ever been, and the people are finding it and fighting
Speaker 2: in and and here it comes the jurors and they
Speaker 2: walk in and there right away, as soon as they
Speaker 2: walk in there they're looking at the witness. See and
Speaker 2: then downstairs back thing. They they just they don't stop
Speaker 2: staring at you. And they're not that far away from me,
Speaker 2: but they just wouldn't stop staying at you. They're just
Speaker 2: staring at you like up and down. Now I'm looking
Speaker 2: at them like I that's one of the worst things,
Speaker 2: that they're looking at you like you're a zoo animal.
Speaker 2: And there's a lot of them. Thinking I thought I
Speaker 2: was twelve. There's like twenty onemen. It seems I guess
Speaker 2: he got the back of Jers or whatever and m
Speaker 2: and I could see like that the fence tables starting
Speaker 2: to get a little more crowded, like people are coming
Speaker 2: in and I see other people with knock clears in
Speaker 2: the back. And I could see that they're sketch artists too,
Speaker 2: like they're they're they're drawing.
Speaker 1: I could see 'em sketching out.
Speaker 2: And and as as I'm sitting there like nervously for
Speaker 2: like maybe ten minutes, fifteen minutes, it felt like forever,
Speaker 2: you know, I could like sit back on the table,
Speaker 2: I could kind of look, I can lean forward and
Speaker 2: I could like see around the the jurdges kind of like.
Speaker 1: Podium can whatever you call it.
Speaker 2: Uh, I could see that there's a door right opposite
Speaker 2: of my door, and I see them kind of open
Speaker 2: it and close it. And then I look and I
Speaker 2: see that there's marshals there, and I'm like yeah, And
Speaker 2: then I look and I see them bringing open the door.
Speaker 2: Let's see and Drey don't letting chat one.
Speaker 3: Surviving l Chapo, The Twins Who Brought Down a Drug
Speaker 3: Lord Season two is hosted by Curtis fifty cent Jackson
Speaker 3: and me Charlie Webster, Produced by myself and Jackson mcclennan,
Speaker 3: Assistant producer and research support.
Speaker 5: By Kasey Hurtz.
Speaker 3: Edit and sound designed by Nico Kalella. Theme music and
Speaker 3: original score by Ryan Sorenson. It's executive produced by Curtis
Speaker 3: fifty cent Jackson and Me Charlie Webster. Curtis fifty cent.
Speaker 5: Jackson presents a Lionsgate Sound and.
Speaker 3: G Unit audio production exclusively for iHeart Podcasts
Speaker 1: Danger