Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt Podcast, your guide to
Speaker 1: the whitetail Woods, presented by first Light, creating proven versatile
Speaker 1: hunting apparel for the stand, saddle or blind. First Light,
Speaker 1: Go Farther, Stay Longer, and now your host, Mark Kenyon.
Speaker 2: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt Podcast. I'm your host,
Speaker 2: Mark Kenyon, and this week on the show, we are
Speaker 2: joined by David Kenyon, my father, to see what we
Speaker 2: can learn from his experience raising a hunting and fishing fool.
Speaker 2: All right, welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, brought
Speaker 2: to you by First Light, and today we are continuing
Speaker 2: our series on parenting and parenting outdoor kids, helping bring
Speaker 2: our children into the hunting and fishing and outdoor world,
Speaker 2: helping to foster a love for wildlife and adventure and
Speaker 2: you know, engaging with animals and fish and wild places,
Speaker 2: all the good stuff that I know that if you're
Speaker 2: listening to this show, you have come to love just
Speaker 2: as much as I have. And as we discussed last
Speaker 2: week when Tony and I kind of kicked off this topic,
Speaker 2: there is there's no right answer to many of these questions.
Speaker 2: There's there's so many shades of gray, there's so many
Speaker 2: different perspectives. There's so many different ways of going about this,
Speaker 2: you know, ultimate task of our lives. Really, I think
Speaker 2: anyone who has become a parent knows and has felt
Speaker 2: deep in your bones how it changes everything. And that
Speaker 2: includes hunting. That includes your passion for white tailed deer,
Speaker 2: fishing for trout, or whatever it is that you like
Speaker 2: to do. But it's something we don't talk about a
Speaker 2: whole lot. We love to talk about pinch points and
Speaker 2: funnels and food plots and scouting and all that good stuff,
Speaker 2: but then we just kind of assume that, you know,
Speaker 2: we'll just know what to do when it comes to
Speaker 2: taking our daughters their sons out in the woods. We'll
Speaker 2: just figure it out as we go. When it comes
Speaker 2: to teach them how to fish. Why don't we explore
Speaker 2: this in more detail? Why don't we give this as
Speaker 2: much attention as we do soil amendments and archery technique.
Speaker 2: That's the that's the question I've been asking myself here recently,
Speaker 2: and that's why we're doing this series. I think it
Speaker 2: deserves some time, some thought, and some different perspectives, new ideas.
Speaker 2: So when it comes to experts on this topic, you know,
Speaker 2: there aren't really any true experts. There's just a whole
Speaker 2: lot of people with some kind of experience. And when
Speaker 2: it comes to people that have some kind of experience,
Speaker 2: I know one person especially well that I have a
Speaker 2: very clear understanding, at least a personal understanding of what
Speaker 2: they did and the results it led to. And of
Speaker 2: course I'm talking about my own dad, and I know
Speaker 2: the results because the results are me. You are listening
Speaker 2: to me. You have found this podcast, This podcast is
Speaker 2: here and now and in the world, and the host
Speaker 2: you're listening to love's deer and fishing and wildlife and
Speaker 2: all sorts of crazy things like that. It's all because
Speaker 2: of him, this guy, David Kenyon. He mentored me, taught me,
Speaker 2: guided me into the outdoors, helped me understand how to
Speaker 2: engage in the natural world, come to love it, come
Speaker 2: to appreciate it, become capable within it, and so many
Speaker 2: other things. And so my thought today was who better
Speaker 2: to kind of dive into this with than someone who
Speaker 2: I grew up with doing this very thing, And see
Speaker 2: if I can learn something from him right now in
Speaker 2: a different kind of way than I did when I
Speaker 2: was actually a child following him along. But what can
Speaker 2: I learn now? Looking back on it all and kind
Speaker 2: of explicitly poking holes and shining a light on different
Speaker 2: sides of it and zooming in with a microscope and
Speaker 2: kind of picking apart what worked, what didn't work, what
Speaker 2: worked for me, what worked for him? What do I remember?
Speaker 2: What does he remember? And how did all of this
Speaker 2: lead to who I am?
Speaker 3: Now?
Speaker 2: This is a shared point of context. Right when you
Speaker 2: listen to other folks talking about hunting and talking about
Speaker 2: their kids, we don't really know what they're talking about, right.
Speaker 2: We hear the words they're saying, but we can't actually
Speaker 2: get a look at the results of what they're telling.
Speaker 3: You to do.
Speaker 2: In this case, it's unique. When you hear my dad
Speaker 2: share his thoughts and ideas and perspectives, you all pretty
Speaker 2: well know what came from it. So I think this
Speaker 2: gives us an interesting opportunity to, you know, hear what
Speaker 2: he has to say, and then look at me and
Speaker 2: what I'm doing. Whether you know, you might hear what
Speaker 2: my dad has to say and they're like, oh, well,
Speaker 2: that's why Mark's so messed up, or that's why Mark's
Speaker 2: so annoying, or that's why Mark is whatever, or you
Speaker 2: might say, man, okay, Mark loves hunting and fishing and
Speaker 2: this thing his dad did.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: I get it now. I can see how that led
Speaker 2: to Mark having this love. Maybe I can try something
Speaker 2: like that too. So I don't know. Maybe we're gonna
Speaker 2: have ideas like that, maybe we'll have the opposite. I'm
Speaker 2: not sure where this is gonna go, but I do
Speaker 2: know that my dad, David Kenyon, is someone who approaches
Speaker 2: things with a lot of thought, with a lot of care,
Speaker 2: and with a life journey. I think that gives his
Speaker 2: advice and his ideas a sense of weight. My dad
Speaker 2: is someone who has push through a lot of things,
Speaker 2: work through a lot of things, and always has been
Speaker 2: able to find the light in it, has been able
Speaker 2: to find the lesson in it, the wisdom that can
Speaker 2: be gained from whatever it might be. And I think
Speaker 2: that makes him a particularly helpful person to listen to
Speaker 2: when it comes to parenting, because anyone out there who
Speaker 2: is a parent knows that it's not always easy. It's
Speaker 2: not always cut and dry, it's not always fun. It's
Speaker 2: not always a straight and narrow path that you can
Speaker 2: walk on easily. It is a journey, and my Dad's
Speaker 2: been on that journey for many years now. I'm fortunate
Speaker 2: that he's been guiding me down that path too, and
Speaker 2: I'm appreciative of the fact that he's willing to hop
Speaker 2: on here and take some tough questions from his son,
Speaker 2: and I hope you all enjoy it as much as
Speaker 2: I did. So, without further ado, let's dive into this
Speaker 2: second episode of our parenting series with my very own father,
Speaker 2: David Kenyon. Okay, now with me on the other side
Speaker 2: of the internet is a special guest. More special, I
Speaker 2: guess I'm biased here, but more special than most I
Speaker 2: have on the show. We've got my father, the one
Speaker 2: and only, David Kenyon. Thanks for doing this, Dad, Hey.
Speaker 3: Glad to do it. Mark excited to be part of
Speaker 3: the wire to Hunt team.
Speaker 2: Yes, I've gotten great feedback from people on the past
Speaker 2: episodes you've joined us, so you know we've got a
Speaker 2: reputation to live up to. Now, Dad, we've done a
Speaker 2: few of these over the years. I think we did.
Speaker 2: I think the first one, if my memory serves me right,
Speaker 2: it was you, me and Josh up at the cabin
Speaker 2: and we talked kind of about the history up there
Speaker 2: and our hunts and stuff, and then I think we
Speaker 2: maybe did another show after you killed your Buck at
Speaker 2: the Back forty. I think that was the next one
Speaker 2: we did, and I of course enjoyed those. And I
Speaker 2: think during one or one or both of those or
Speaker 2: at some point I think I had asked you a
Speaker 2: little bit about what I was like as a kid
Speaker 2: and what it was like, you know, raising me a touch,
Speaker 2: But I think that was like a snippet of our conversation.
Speaker 2: But what I want to do today, if you're willing
Speaker 2: to do this, is to expand on that dramatically, because,
Speaker 2: as you know, we're doing this short series around parenting
Speaker 2: and parenting kids that, you know, learn to love hunting
Speaker 2: and fishing in the outdoors and the natural world and
Speaker 2: all that kind of stuff. And you know, when I'm
Speaker 2: sitting here at my desk and thinking through, who do
Speaker 2: I know that has done that? Well, I can't think
Speaker 2: of anyone better than you. But that is because I am,
Speaker 2: of course the product of that training and that parenting.
Speaker 2: But here I am. I love hunting, I love fishing,
Speaker 2: I love the natural world, and I'm obsessed with all
Speaker 2: the above. So I would like to raise a kid
Speaker 2: like me someday. So I suppose you are one of
Speaker 2: the best people I know to teach me how to
Speaker 2: do it.
Speaker 3: Dad.
Speaker 2: So that's the goal today. Are you up for the challenge?
Speaker 3: I am, but I hope I don't let you in
Speaker 3: your audience down.
Speaker 2: Here's the next question. Then, I I know you very well,
Speaker 2: and I know that you have uh you have dad
Speaker 2: blinders sometimes like you wear you wear rose colored dad glasses.
Speaker 2: By that, I mean you are you are so biased
Speaker 2: in your in your appreciation of your son, which I appreciate.
Speaker 2: But what I'm going to ask you to do here, Pops,
Speaker 2: is to be as objective, be as objective, unbiased and
Speaker 2: honest as possible as we talk about these things.
Speaker 3: Do you really want me to be brutal? Yes?
Speaker 2: So if you if if there's something you remember from
Speaker 2: my childhood where I drove you really nuts and I
Speaker 2: was a real a hole, you should say that. Okay,
Speaker 2: you don't need to pretend like, well, see I might
Speaker 2: I might cut you off somewhere down the line. Okay,
Speaker 2: But that's what I want to do here. I want
Speaker 2: to you know, as a kid with my dad, I
Speaker 2: can look back on all of our experiences together and
Speaker 2: try to glean insights from the things I experienced as
Speaker 2: a kid, But now as a dad myself, I'm you know,
Speaker 2: and I'm sure you experienced this when you know I
Speaker 2: was a kid, there wasn't like a handbook. There wasn't
Speaker 2: anyone that gave you like, here are the rules, or
Speaker 2: here's the playbook or hear are the step by step
Speaker 2: directions for how to do this right? How to raise
Speaker 2: a kid, how to introduce these things to them. So
Speaker 2: it's kind of I don't know how many kids and
Speaker 2: their parents get an opportunity to actually have like a
Speaker 2: a thorough conversation about this and ask the questions explicitly
Speaker 2: that maybe that you wonder about but you don't ever
Speaker 2: talk about. So I've got a few of those for you.
Speaker 3: All right, Well, shoot, man, and I guess to.
Speaker 2: Begin it, it might be useful, and I think it'd
Speaker 2: be interesting for me even if we were to rewind
Speaker 2: the clock even further back. Let's go back not just
Speaker 2: when I was a kid, but let's go one generation
Speaker 2: further back and go back to when you were a kid,
Speaker 2: which I imagine some of those experiences were what informed
Speaker 2: you then when you started parenting me. Right, yeah, so
Speaker 2: do you remember or what can you remember about the
Speaker 2: earliest exposure or memory you have of hunting or fishing
Speaker 2: with your dad. What's that thing that sticks out for you? Still?
Speaker 2: Do something come to mind?
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know Grandpa, my dad, he loved the outdoor
Speaker 3: and it was you know, he was kind of a
Speaker 3: product of the depression, product of the Second World War,
Speaker 3: very strong minded, strong, powerful personality and as I think
Speaker 3: many particularly men, but you know, in that generation, had
Speaker 3: a challenge I think, really connecting personally with us as kids.
Speaker 3: So his way of being able to do that was
Speaker 3: through the outdoors. So the thing I remember that was
Speaker 3: most memorable was and not that my dad didn't spend
Speaker 3: time with us. He did. He did lots of different things.
Speaker 3: But where we really connected, where I really felt that
Speaker 3: I knew my dad best and really enjoyed being with
Speaker 3: him and we'd have great conversations, et cetera, was when
Speaker 3: we were hunting and fishing, and we spent a lot
Speaker 3: of time doing that. As you know, Mark, every opportunity
Speaker 3: we got, we were out in the boat fishing during
Speaker 3: the spring and the summer, and every opportunity we got
Speaker 3: to go up to the cabin or go out in
Speaker 3: the woods to do hunting we did during the fu
Speaker 3: and they were in the winter and early early fall
Speaker 3: as well for different kinds of animals. And so for me,
Speaker 3: I grew up outside, and I grew up loving and
Speaker 3: appreciating the outdoors and loving and appreciating the relationship that
Speaker 3: I had with my dad and with my brother because
Speaker 3: of that. So for me, it was very formative in
Speaker 3: that it created and I think really helped me grow
Speaker 3: into the kind of person that I was. And you know,
Speaker 3: I'm not not jumping ahead of a generation yet, but
Speaker 3: that's why that was so important to me that you
Speaker 3: had that experience, because I had it, and that was
Speaker 3: a primary way as for me, at least, to connect
Speaker 3: with my dad. Do you.
Speaker 2: Do you remember Do you have like a moment that
Speaker 2: you can think back on specifically? Is there a story
Speaker 2: that when I say, all right, tell me about one
Speaker 2: of these formative early in your life moments with your
Speaker 2: dad hunting or fishing that like, is there movie can
Speaker 2: still play in your mind of one of these days
Speaker 2: and one of these mornings. Can you tell about.
Speaker 3: One of those? It's yeah, I can. It's a little
Speaker 3: bit challenging choosing just one, because honestly, I have a bunch.
Speaker 3: But let me let me throw out one maybe two
Speaker 3: that are really I think exemplary of what I'm what
Speaker 3: I'm speaking of. So we did very little hunting up
Speaker 3: in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan. Most of our hunting
Speaker 3: was down in the southern in Baldwin in some of
Speaker 3: those areas in mid Michigan when I was really young,
Speaker 3: you know, four or five, six, seven, eight years old.
Speaker 3: But one time my dad wanted to go up to
Speaker 3: the up I think he had heard from some of
Speaker 3: his friends about an area that you know, was pretty
Speaker 3: well stocked with big bucks, and the Upper Penince of Michigan,
Speaker 3: for those that don't know, is especially back then, it
Speaker 3: was quite remote, big tall stands of pines and a
Speaker 3: lot of conifers, very deep woods. That the interesting thing
Speaker 3: is because there's very little agriculture up there. Although it's
Speaker 3: beautiful terrain, not a lot of food for the deer.
Speaker 3: So when you did find deer, they oftentimes were bigger,
Speaker 3: but they're fewer and far between because of that. But anyway,
Speaker 3: so I remember one time, I don't know exactly how
Speaker 3: old I was, maybe seven, six, seven years old. My
Speaker 3: dad got me up and said, hey, Dave, we're going
Speaker 3: to go hunting. But it's a long ways away. We've
Speaker 3: got to take off early in the morning. So you
Speaker 3: got me up at three in the morning. We were
Speaker 3: on the road by four, and we drove up to
Speaker 3: I don't even know where in the Upper Peninsula what
Speaker 3: it was, but it was a way beyond the MacNell Bridge.
Speaker 3: And so I say it was probably seven years old
Speaker 3: and back then. And you and I have talked about
Speaker 3: this before, Mark, you know, this is before all the
Speaker 3: fancy clothing. You know, I remember even seeing a pair
Speaker 3: of surround boots on the shows at the local store.
Speaker 3: It was a really big deal, you know. There just
Speaker 3: we just didn't have the quality and the level of
Speaker 3: technology in terms of outdoor clothing that we have today.
Speaker 3: So I had, you know, an orange sweatshirt, some pull
Speaker 3: on flannel jeans that you know I had, and then Grandma,
Speaker 3: who was a knitter, you know, knitted up a hat
Speaker 3: and knit hat and a knit scarf. And that's when
Speaker 3: I went into the woods with and it was certainly
Speaker 3: better than nothing. But I got to tell you, I
Speaker 3: froze my butt off. And so we get up, we
Speaker 3: get up to our spot up in the up. It's
Speaker 3: maybe seven o'clock because it's a three or four hour drive,
Speaker 3: we you know, very quietly sneak out to the to
Speaker 3: the to the woods. And because we hadn't been here,
Speaker 3: we hadn't set up any blinds or anything. That it
Speaker 3: was kind of a you know, find the best tree.
Speaker 3: That's the other thing that's so different about today. You know,
Speaker 3: nine times out of ten, we just go find a
Speaker 3: tree someplace and sit next to it. I'd sit on
Speaker 3: one side and my dad would sit on the other,
Speaker 3: and that's what we did in this particular situation. And
Speaker 3: overnight a snowstorm had come in. It wasn't snowing down south,
Speaker 3: but it was snowing hard up in the up So
Speaker 3: these big, beautiful snowflakes falling down, and you know, all
Speaker 3: the big pine trees were covered with snow and the
Speaker 3: branches were draping low. So as we went into the woods,
Speaker 3: there was probably a foot of snow on the on
Speaker 3: the ground, and it was brutally cold, so cold front
Speaker 3: had come in. It was I don't know what what
Speaker 3: the temp was, but I'm guessing ten above fifteen above
Speaker 3: for a little kid, it was really cold. So anyway,
Speaker 3: so we sneak into the woods and you know, I'm
Speaker 3: following a lot, and I got this. You know, I'm
Speaker 3: all bundled up in four or five layers with this
Speaker 3: orange sweatshirt on top and a knit you know it
Speaker 3: knitted cap and then knitted scarf around and I'm just
Speaker 3: kind of waddling into the woods behind my dad, and
Speaker 3: you know, he'd say, come on, Dave, let's cold. You
Speaker 3: can do it if you just pulled me in, and
Speaker 3: I'd follow him in these big beautiful trees. I remember
Speaker 3: seeing with all that snow all over the branches and
Speaker 3: hanging down, and it just seems surreal. It was like
Speaker 3: being on another planet. It was absolutely beautiful, absolutely gorgeous,
Speaker 3: absolutely freezing. So so so we get out to the to
Speaker 3: the tree. We find a tree someplace, and really all
Speaker 3: I remember is it was very thick, beautiful, just gorgeous,
Speaker 3: big snowflakes the size of quarters falling. And we get
Speaker 3: to this blind again. He sat on one side, I
Speaker 3: sat on the other end. And he would always bring
Speaker 3: a blanket, and so after I sat down, he'd take
Speaker 3: a blanket and kind of wrapped me up in that blanket. Right,
Speaker 3: so all you could see is my head poke up
Speaker 3: about this this little cocoon. So we're waiting and waiting,
Speaker 3: and Grandpa just like you and I marquess, and great
Speaker 3: conversations when we're going up to hunting and that sort
Speaker 3: of thing. So did so did he and I. And
Speaker 3: one of the things and this is one of the takeaways,
Speaker 3: certainly I took is you know, he talked about how
Speaker 3: great it was to be able to go hunting, the
Speaker 3: kind of experience of funny what to look out for,
Speaker 3: how to you know, how to see the deer and
Speaker 3: you know, spot the deer out in the woods, and
Speaker 3: you know what to do if they do if you
Speaker 3: do see a deer, and how to communicate with him.
Speaker 3: All those things we talked about all the way up.
Speaker 3: So by the time we got, you know, to the
Speaker 3: Upper Peninsula and we started going out of the woods,
Speaker 3: I was really stoked. I was excited. We tried back in.
Speaker 3: He puts me on one side, sits on the other
Speaker 3: side of this big old, you know, pine tree. And
Speaker 3: what do you do when you're seven years old and
Speaker 3: you're walked in a half mile and it's colder than
Speaker 3: I'll get out, You fall asleep.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you're still doing that same thing today.
Speaker 3: So a couple, a couple hours later, as I recall,
Speaker 3: I woke up and I'm just raizing, like my toes
Speaker 3: are cold, my nose is cold, my ears are cold,
Speaker 3: and and I'm just you know, my I'm shaking and
Speaker 3: I'm shivering, and Grandpa courses on the other side of
Speaker 3: the bine and he said, quiet, I think I see something.
Speaker 3: I hear something. Everybody, Oh yeah, right, sure, Dad, I'm
Speaker 3: freezing and you're gonna here. But it turns out that
Speaker 3: that was a false alarm. A little bit later, though,
Speaker 3: he says, damn, dam just touches my shoulder from the
Speaker 3: back of the tree and around comes a cup of
Speaker 3: hot chicken soup and a thermos. And it was the
Speaker 3: best thing ever. It was like dying and going to heaven,
Speaker 3: right for a little guy. So it's a combination of
Speaker 3: hot soup, I Coco and Nestle's chocolate bars that kept
Speaker 3: me going during those hunting trips. So did we shoot
Speaker 3: a big deer? No? Did we you know, see a
Speaker 3: monster come through the woods? And was it the best
Speaker 3: hume of my life? No? Was it one of those
Speaker 3: memories that I'll hold deer forever because it was that
Speaker 3: special time that I had with my dad and It
Speaker 3: was one of those experiences that clinched it for me
Speaker 3: as so why I left going going deer honey. Yeah.
Speaker 2: It's an interesting example too because it's, uh, you know,
Speaker 2: one of the cliche pieces of advice and probably because
Speaker 2: there's truth to it when it comes to introducing your
Speaker 2: kids to hunting or fishing is to you know, always
Speaker 2: make sure it's fun, right, keep it fun, keep it light.
Speaker 2: But will you just described there was kind of miserable
Speaker 2: and challenging for a lot of it, and then punctuated
Speaker 2: by a little moment of of you know, heaven.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So yeah, what do you uh, what do you think
Speaker 2: your dad did best? Like when you look back and
Speaker 2: try to understand why did you end up falling in
Speaker 2: love with this stuff? Kind of knowing you your dad's
Speaker 2: teaching style or just his personality or whatever it is,
Speaker 2: What do you think worked as far as how he
Speaker 2: taught you and steve to engage in these things and
Speaker 2: brought you, guys to a point where you loved it
Speaker 2: and wanted to do it yourselves. What what did you
Speaker 2: do right?
Speaker 3: You know? I think there were a couple of things
Speaker 3: my dad did really well. One is he was always
Speaker 3: teaching it was always talking to us about the woods
Speaker 3: and about hunting and fishing in the different aspects of it.
Speaker 3: But it was always in It was always a teaching mode.
Speaker 3: It was always, hey, remember to do this, remember how
Speaker 3: to do that. You know, be careful about this. You
Speaker 3: remember the walking through the woods. And then just my
Speaker 3: dad was really good of building excitement and Mark, I
Speaker 3: think you can relate to this, right. I mean, we
Speaker 3: go into the cabin and there's a dozen outdoor life
Speaker 3: or you know, the Least Deer Hunting magazine sitting on
Speaker 3: the table, would pull it up and talk about an
Speaker 3: artic league just so and it just he made it fun.
Speaker 3: The other thing is that if my dad transitioned from
Speaker 3: being a teacher to being a coach, and I think
Speaker 3: that's really critical. So you know, a teacher explains to
Speaker 3: you what to do, describes what to do and leads
Speaker 3: you through it. A coach stands back and watches you
Speaker 3: do it and then just at the right time and
Speaker 3: the right place, strategically adds a little hint, a little
Speaker 3: piece of information to help you do a little bit better.
Speaker 3: And my dad was good at that.
Speaker 2: As we got older, when did that transition start to happen.
Speaker 2: When you do you recall when that shift started to
Speaker 2: take place.
Speaker 3: Yeah, somewhere around forty five.
Speaker 2: It took him a little while, Yeah, I know, No, no.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'd say it was maybe twelve, I would say
Speaker 3: fourteen in that timeframe, you know, because we'd been hunting
Speaker 3: with him, that that shift from us being with him
Speaker 3: and he was the hunter, to us being with him
Speaker 3: and we were also the hunter. Because it was a
Speaker 3: period where we would carry our you know, when I
Speaker 3: was twelve, fourteen years old and I had a twenty
Speaker 3: two fourteen, four ten over and over under. You know,
Speaker 3: there were times when we would both sit on either
Speaker 3: side of the tree and he just kind of that
Speaker 3: was kind of his mentoring, right, It was to kind
Speaker 3: of coach us through that. But I'd say sometime after
Speaker 3: that we transitioned to that pure coach And again, like
Speaker 3: I say, my dad was really good at that.
Speaker 2: What was your dad not good at? What do you
Speaker 2: recall when you look back on those early days when
Speaker 2: you were hunting and fishing, that did not help you
Speaker 2: fall in love with these things or to teach you that. Yeah,
Speaker 2: was there anything that almost made you not want to
Speaker 2: do these things?
Speaker 3: You know, although my dad was a good teacher and
Speaker 3: a good coach, he sometimes could be impatient. And well,
Speaker 3: there's another thing that I think I need to put
Speaker 3: on the plus side before I talk about the negative.
Speaker 3: The other thing my dad was really really good at
Speaker 3: is making it, making us excited and making it fun. Okay,
Speaker 3: So those were on the on the plus side. But
Speaker 3: I think on the negative side, I think the patience
Speaker 3: at times was a struggle with him. So my father
Speaker 3: was very goal oriented, a perfectionist in what he did,
Speaker 3: and although he was really good at teaching and coaching,
Speaker 3: I think he at times was impatient with how you know,
Speaker 3: we're ten year old kids, right year old kids or whatever.
Speaker 3: So I say that that's something that I tried to
Speaker 3: do with you is to be a lot more patient
Speaker 3: and allowed you to maybe make your own mistakes. And
Speaker 3: that's okay because you learned from mistakes.
Speaker 2: Yeah. What what when you look back on those early years,
Speaker 2: is there a lesson or one single thing if you
Speaker 2: had to take one thing that you learned from your
Speaker 2: dad that when you became a dad yourself, you thought
Speaker 2: would be foundational in how you parented me in Kristin,
Speaker 2: what would be that most important thing and I'm sure
Speaker 2: you probably mentioned an example maybe, but what was that
Speaker 2: If there was ultimate lesson that you took with you.
Speaker 3: You know, it's interesting you bring it up. And this
Speaker 3: is kind of tied to some of what we just
Speaker 3: talked about. You know, what's kind of a hard transition
Speaker 3: for me to make, and I think every parent needs
Speaker 3: to keep this in mind. We joke about how when
Speaker 3: you were young and we were walking through the woods
Speaker 3: before the age of six or seven, let's say, was
Speaker 3: somewhere around that six seven, maybe eight. I was in front,
Speaker 3: I was leading. I was kind of giving you perspective
Speaker 3: than saying watch out for that log, mark so on
Speaker 3: and so forth. Somewhere around that transition, something flipped and
Speaker 3: it was you and fraud, you telling me to watch
Speaker 3: out for the log. And I think what's really important
Speaker 3: is a parent is to allow that to happen, is
Speaker 3: to encourage that transition. Don't be threatened by it. Don't
Speaker 3: And I remember, you know, in a different domain, but
Speaker 3: I remember when you and I were bass fishing and
Speaker 3: doing bass fishing tournaments, and there was a there was
Speaker 3: a point at which you knew more than I did.
Speaker 3: You were better at it than I was. And it
Speaker 3: would have been easy to kind of maybe not maybe
Speaker 3: not resent it, but but you know, kind of react
Speaker 3: to that a little bit. And I think it's really
Speaker 3: important as a parent to allow your kids to express
Speaker 3: themselves and be their own persons, even if that means
Speaker 3: they might be a little bit more knowledgeable or a
Speaker 3: little bit better at something that you love and do.
Speaker 3: So it'd be different if I don't really I didn't
Speaker 3: really care for dear hunting, or it'd be different if
Speaker 3: I didn't really care for bass fishing. But I love both,
Speaker 3: and you were better than I was, and that's okay,
Speaker 3: and that's a good thing. But I think that's something
Speaker 3: important to recognize and encourage. It's not about and I
Speaker 3: think men in particular, we tend to be, or at
Speaker 3: least the men I know, we tend to be so competitive,
Speaker 3: and sometimes it's easy to translate that into our relationship
Speaker 3: with our kids as well.
Speaker 2: So you mentioned, you know, my early days as a kid,
Speaker 2: and I know a story you told before is about
Speaker 2: when I was, you know, a little guy, and we
Speaker 2: were going on hunting and I was three or four
Speaker 2: on the floor of the blind just playing with toys
Speaker 2: and napping and all that kind of stuff. So one
Speaker 2: thing I noticed that I can recall, I think this
Speaker 2: mirror is what you experienced as a kid, was that,
Speaker 2: you know, you took me, You took me whenever you
Speaker 2: were going. It seems like I don't honestly remember a
Speaker 2: whole lot of hunting or fishing trips that you went
Speaker 2: on when I was alive that I wasn't on. I
Speaker 2: can I can remember, like I remember once you went
Speaker 2: to Canada on a fishing trip without me. I remember
Speaker 2: that one, yeah, But I can't recall a whole lot
Speaker 2: other than that. So you were dragging me along in
Speaker 2: all these things with you. What was that like when
Speaker 2: I was three or four or five and you had
Speaker 2: your own passion for the thing, hunting or fishing, But
Speaker 2: now you had this tag along who's slower, louder, you know,
Speaker 2: more easily distracted. I know what that experience has been
Speaker 2: like for me as an adult, But what was that
Speaker 2: like for you? And having a three year old, four
Speaker 2: year old little Mark Kenyon messing up your hunt and fishing?
Speaker 3: Yeah? No, No, I think that's a really really good point,
Speaker 3: and I think it was. It certainly impacts your success,
Speaker 3: It impacts and I think you're like me, Mark, Well,
Speaker 3: you're much more than me in terms of being very
Speaker 3: gulorated and everything's formalized, and you want to make You've
Speaker 3: got a strategy and a plan for how you're going
Speaker 3: to approach a particular hunt or whatever. And when something
Speaker 3: doesn't work out, he doesn't go exactly to plan. It's
Speaker 3: easy to get upset by that. It's pretty easy to
Speaker 3: get frustrated by that. I think when you're again this,
Speaker 3: I'll point back to Grandpa for this. Grandpa was just
Speaker 3: really good and no matter how he was very serious,
Speaker 3: a very serious hunter and a very serious fisherman. But
Speaker 3: we were always first, so we never he never compromised
Speaker 3: that experience of his experience for us. He always prioritized
Speaker 3: us over that. And I think that's what I try
Speaker 3: to do with you, and I think that's what you
Speaker 3: do with your kids. So it's not about as much
Speaker 3: as we love the sport if you really want to.
Speaker 3: So I think another thing that's really important about teaching
Speaker 3: our kids to love the outdoors and to love, you know,
Speaker 3: the sports that we enjoy that I think a lot
Speaker 3: of people may not appreciate. It is not just about
Speaker 3: getting them outdoors and given them the experience and that
Speaker 3: sort of thing. It's about building deeper relationships they're going
Speaker 3: to last a lifetime, because I really think that's what
Speaker 3: this is all about. It's not about catching the biggest
Speaker 3: fish or shooting the biggest ear. It's really about love
Speaker 3: for God's creation and nature and building a really strong
Speaker 3: relationship with the ones you love and doing that. And
Speaker 3: I think that's that's what I've learned from my dad,
Speaker 3: and I think that's what I see you doing with
Speaker 3: your kids.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, I think I've said this before on
Speaker 2: the podcast, or maybe you said I can't remember who,
Speaker 2: but you know, if we hadn't had hunting and fishing,
Speaker 2: I don't know what kind of relationship we would have had.
Speaker 3: You're right, You're right, you know these we're very different
Speaker 3: a lot of ways.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like that. This has been that one thing that
Speaker 2: has really brought us together on something we have shared
Speaker 2: interest in and passion for and vocabulary around, you know.
Speaker 3: Yep, yep, right.
Speaker 2: So you brought up something though that raises a question
Speaker 2: that I have been, you know, struggling with at times,
Speaker 2: or I guess recognizing in myself a challenge. I guess
Speaker 2: I've recognized in myself is that I have found myself
Speaker 2: wanting success when I'm out there with the kids, and
Speaker 2: as you mentioned, I'm goal oriented, I'm hard charging. I
Speaker 2: think there's a lot of other hunters and anglers out
Speaker 2: there like that too, who want to get the turkey.
Speaker 2: I want to shoot the buck. I want to catch
Speaker 2: the big fish. And so I have caught myself sometimes
Speaker 2: out there with Everett or Colton, and I want success
Speaker 2: so badly, and I think, like, man, if only we
Speaker 2: could shoot this buck with Ever here, it would be
Speaker 2: so incredible and it would be such a great moment
Speaker 2: for him. And I'm thinking about this for him, but
Speaker 2: then I'll catch myself. So an example I talked about
Speaker 2: this last week with Tony. An example of this was
Speaker 2: this past hunting season. I think I told you the story.
Speaker 2: There was this opportunity that me and Effort had to
Speaker 2: go after like a four and a half year old,
Speaker 2: actual mature buck here in Michigan. I was like, man,
Speaker 2: we actually have a chance to kill this big old
Speaker 2: buck with Ever, Like everything's set up perfect, and he
Speaker 2: was excited about it, and I thought this would just be incredible,
Speaker 2: Like this is going to be so great. But what
Speaker 2: happened over the course of these two hunts. Is that
Speaker 2: because I was putting this extra pressure on it, because
Speaker 2: I thought we had a real chance to kill this
Speaker 2: big old buck, everything all of a sudden, like everything
Speaker 2: was ramped up, the pressure on every time he talked
Speaker 2: too loud, or every time he moved too much, or
Speaker 2: every time it was just like I was on a
Speaker 2: hair trigger because of that, because I wanted it so
Speaker 2: bad for him. But then I realized at some point
Speaker 2: down the road, like he doesn't really care about that.
Speaker 2: He just wants to have a good time. He just
Speaker 2: wants to be out here with me. And I am
Speaker 2: I hurting his ability to have a good time because
Speaker 2: I'm trying to put my goals on his or impose
Speaker 2: my goals on him. So did you ever I guess
Speaker 2: what I'm trying to get at here is did you
Speaker 2: ever encounter that? Did you have how did you deal
Speaker 2: with that? What did you do? Did you Did you
Speaker 2: ever have a time back in the day when man
Speaker 2: you want to catch fits so bad because he knew
Speaker 2: I'd be stoked about it, but then you know, I
Speaker 2: was just in la la land. And did you push
Speaker 2: through that? Did you try to get me over the
Speaker 2: hump or did you say, all right, no, this is
Speaker 2: going to be a warm collecting mission because that's what
Speaker 2: Mark wants to do. What's your recommendation for dealing with
Speaker 2: that or where's that balance point?
Speaker 3: Well, well, I think I think it's a I think
Speaker 3: I think you hit on some really good points. And
Speaker 3: I think one of the maybe guiding principles is to
Speaker 3: remember that it's more about the relationship, especially with your kids.
Speaker 3: Right when you're with your friends, when you're with your
Speaker 3: your favorite hunting buddy, then then that's all different. But
Speaker 3: when you're with your kids or your family, I think
Speaker 3: it's more about the relationship than it is about the trophy.
Speaker 3: And I think keeping things in perspective. And you know,
Speaker 3: one of the things I tried to do, and I
Speaker 3: think it's really important right up front, is that your
Speaker 3: expectations appropriately, you know, think about it ahead of time,
Speaker 3: Think about the great experience you're going to have, think
Speaker 3: about maybe the big buck that's going to walk on
Speaker 3: in front of you with when you're with your son.
Speaker 3: But then remind yourself that it doesn't matter how big
Speaker 3: the deer is. It doesn't matter whether you even see
Speaker 3: a deer going back to your point, Mark, you know,
Speaker 3: some of my best hunts with my dad we never
Speaker 3: shot a deer. That wasn't what I remember. What I
Speaker 3: remember is the conversations we had, or the time, you know,
Speaker 3: the chicken soup that he passed around the tree to me.
Speaker 3: That's what I remember. Those are the things that you know,
Speaker 3: ten years from now from then, gave me the passion
Speaker 3: for wanting to be outdoors and being with him, and
Speaker 3: you know, being able to hunt and fish. So those
Speaker 3: think of it as the seeds that you're planning that
Speaker 3: are going to grow into the love for the outdoors.
Speaker 3: And sometimes speeds need watering, and sometimes you know, you
Speaker 3: need to prone a few of those those you know
Speaker 3: dead branches. And some of those dead branches aren't on
Speaker 3: the one you're hunting with, they're in you. And so
Speaker 3: I think that's really important. I think that's really cay
Speaker 3: and it's really hard. Again, I think not not to
Speaker 3: be not to say that this isn't a challenge for
Speaker 3: women as well, but I think it's particularly a challenge
Speaker 3: for me because we tend to be so competitive.
Speaker 2: So along those same lines, another one of my debates
Speaker 2: that I continue to return to when I'm outside with
Speaker 2: the boys. Is something I'm curious about how you dealt
Speaker 2: with I see, as we talked about hunting and fishing
Speaker 2: and all these outside activities as a great opportunity to
Speaker 2: have fun with the kids.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 2: You want to keep it fun, You want to make
Speaker 2: it fun for them. You want to focus on what
Speaker 2: their experience is, right, all these things you just mentioned.
Speaker 2: On the flip side, though, I've also seen hunting and
Speaker 2: fishing in the outdoors as this great arena for developing
Speaker 2: resilience and toughness and you know, becoming comfortable discomfort. Right, Like,
Speaker 2: these these experiences where we are pushed beyond what we
Speaker 2: think is possible. I have found those to be, you know,
Speaker 2: such such critical parts of what that hunting and fishing
Speaker 2: experience has been for me. If I didn't have that,
Speaker 2: how would I have developed these characteristics? And so I
Speaker 2: want that for my kids too. I want them to
Speaker 2: be pushed. I want them to have to deal with
Speaker 2: the tough stuff and push through it and develop mental
Speaker 2: toughness and all that. So how did you go about
Speaker 2: walking that line between the two between keeping it fun
Speaker 2: but not making it so cushy cushy that I never
Speaker 2: had to deal with the tough stuff. Was that something
Speaker 2: you were thinking about at any point over those years?
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah, And I think one of the ways
Speaker 3: we did that's something we haven't talked about yet. That's
Speaker 3: kind of related to this. And the phrase that I
Speaker 3: would use is feed the habit. Remember that Mark? Oh yeah,
Speaker 3: So feeding the habit is when we go to Cabela's
Speaker 3: or our favorite sporting goods store. You were there with me,
Speaker 3: we were going through we were talking about, you know,
Speaker 3: the gear that we wanted to pick up for our
Speaker 3: next hunt, or the gear we're going to buy for
Speaker 3: the next tournament we're going to fish, and and very
Speaker 3: quickly you started studying and looking at what the best
Speaker 3: equipment was. And you would be you know, teaching me
Speaker 3: in many cases because that became an internal passion for you.
Speaker 3: So I think I think a couple of things that
Speaker 3: are really important is, first of all, everybody's different. Every
Speaker 3: one of your children would be different. So don't try
Speaker 3: to make a square peg into a round hole. There's
Speaker 3: some kids and I can see this with you know,
Speaker 3: with some of our grandkids as well, is that you know,
Speaker 3: they they approach it maybe a little bit differently than you.
Speaker 3: Would or maybe a little bit different than their sibling.
Speaker 3: That's okay, find that way. So you know, with with
Speaker 3: our daughter, we took a very different approach, but we
Speaker 3: were able to find her passion or see what her
Speaker 3: passion was, and then help her discover that. It's I
Speaker 3: think there's a couple of key That one is, I like,
Speaker 3: you know, that whole euphemism about feeding the habit It
Speaker 3: really gets that. Make sure they don't have to have
Speaker 3: the best equipment, they don't have to have the best
Speaker 3: of everything, but it has to be good enough. It
Speaker 3: has to be good enough that it encourages the experience
Speaker 3: and enhances the experience. So we didn't go out and
Speaker 3: buy the twenty dollars of co reels and you know,
Speaker 3: ten dollars crappy little poll from Walmart. We spent a
Speaker 3: little bit of money and got a decent reel and
Speaker 3: a decent rig And you were part of that. You were,
Speaker 3: in many cases telling us what you wanted, right because
Speaker 3: you've done the research. I think the other pieces is
Speaker 3: that it's eternal. You can never you can never make
Speaker 3: somebody love somebody something. It really has to come from them.
Speaker 3: And your job as a parent is not to force
Speaker 3: them to love your Your favorite sport is to encourage
Speaker 3: that passion and love inside first. And I think that's
Speaker 3: how you do it. You make it fun. You feed
Speaker 3: to have it. So when you see that spark of interest,
Speaker 3: that spark of gee, I really enjoy are you doing this?
Speaker 3: Then encourage it. You don't need to spend a ton
Speaker 3: of money. It's not about buying the best. It's about
Speaker 3: buying or encouraging them and equipping them with the equipment
Speaker 3: that's going to allow them to have a positive experience.
Speaker 2: Okay, then that all makes sense, But I feel like
Speaker 2: I feel like, let me let me rephrase my question.
Speaker 2: WHOA did you ever make me sit it out in
Speaker 2: the freezing cold blizzard weather when I said I want
Speaker 2: to go inside. I'm cold, this is miserable, and you're no, no,
Speaker 2: hear me out though I want to go inside, I
Speaker 2: wasn't having fun. But did you have situations like where
Speaker 2: that where you thought to yourself, all right, I have
Speaker 2: a choice. Mark says he is cold. Mark says he's
Speaker 2: not having fun. But this is a teaching moment. This
Speaker 2: is an opportunity for Mark to grow a little are there?
Speaker 2: Did you ever have that situation where you had to
Speaker 2: debate with yourself like, okay, do we call it quits
Speaker 2: because this is not type one fun anymore? Or were
Speaker 2: there moments where like, you know what, I know, this
Speaker 2: isn't fun right now, but this is going to make
Speaker 2: him a man, This is going to help him grow,
Speaker 2: This is going to help him learn to deal with
Speaker 2: the tough shit in life that's coming down the line.
Speaker 2: Was that something you were explicitly ever thinking about, debating,
Speaker 2: trying to figure out did you do that the right way?
Speaker 2: Do you think or at all?
Speaker 3: Yes? And no, so yes, we thought about it. Yes,
Speaker 3: there are times when you wanted to go in, you
Speaker 3: were uncomfortable, you weren't ready. Now you're a little bit
Speaker 3: of a special case in this domain. I mean, you
Speaker 3: were pretty passionate about it. You were the one who
Speaker 3: was telling me to stay out in the woods longer.
Speaker 3: So this is a little bit different in your case.
Speaker 3: But I guess what I'm saying is you kind of
Speaker 3: have to read your audience, is really what I'm saying.
Speaker 3: And yes, reading your audience doesn't mean you you just
Speaker 3: you know, follow at everyone requests, but it also means
Speaker 3: that if you there's a very fine line between sticking
Speaker 3: it out, going the way the whole way and then
Speaker 3: or and have an experience turned into a negative experience
Speaker 3: that turns you off and encourages you to go off
Speaker 3: and take up soccer or something else. R right, And
Speaker 3: I think you have to be really careful on how
Speaker 3: you play that as parent. So I think, yes, we did,
Speaker 3: and we have, But I also think it's really important.
Speaker 3: What's most important is not that you force your kids
Speaker 3: to stick it out and make them tougher and that
Speaker 3: sort of thing, but that you you understand kind of
Speaker 3: the psychology behind what the what is going on in
Speaker 3: the experience and and help them wright because this is
Speaker 3: these are life lessons, and I think that's the other
Speaker 3: thing that's really important. This This isn't about it partially
Speaker 3: about you know, getting outside and hunting and fishing. Yes,
Speaker 3: it's about that, but even more so and underlying all that,
Speaker 3: we're really talking about how you live your life, how
Speaker 3: you approach failure, how you approach success, how you approach
Speaker 3: you know, to your point mark perseverance. That's what you're
Speaker 3: teaching throughout all this. So think about the lesson that's
Speaker 3: being learned from their perspective and make sure that you're
Speaker 3: taking that into context as you make those decisions.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So, continuing on a similar line of thinking, then
Speaker 2: what I'm giving you here dat is all of my
Speaker 2: existential questions that I'm trying to figure out. Like you
Speaker 2: just described, like there's this line, a very fine line
Speaker 2: between those two things, and it seems really hard to
Speaker 2: be able pin down where the line is. Yeah, but
Speaker 2: here's another one that I have thought about a lot,
Speaker 2: especially with ever, you know, having more and more interest
Speaker 2: in getting, you know, really seriously involved with hunts and
Speaker 2: you know, wanting to be with me when I shoot
Speaker 2: at ear or shooting a with his BB gun at
Speaker 2: an animal, or you know, going out there and helping
Speaker 2: me track and gut deer. He wants to be in
Speaker 2: it and do it all. And so I find myself
Speaker 2: asking and thinking a lot about how do I balance
Speaker 2: this other thing, which is keeping hunting or fishing fun,
Speaker 2: like just fun, enjoying the experience, but also somehow conveying
Speaker 2: the seriousness of it. How do I keep a thing
Speaker 2: fun but also teach them to respect the animal, to
Speaker 2: understand the gravity of killing an animal, clubbing a fish,
Speaker 2: whatever it might be, I could see. I have found
Speaker 2: myself like battling with like, Okay, I want to make
Speaker 2: sure he understands this and he's got to take this
Speaker 2: serious and he needs to get this. But then I
Speaker 2: will catch myself and be like, Okay, whoa, whoa, whoa?
Speaker 2: Am I putting too much on him too soon? And
Speaker 2: do I just need to let it be fun right
Speaker 2: now without diving too deep into that because he's too
Speaker 2: young to understand that. How do you think about that?
Speaker 2: How do you do that?
Speaker 3: You know? So now I'm and it sounds like I'm
Speaker 3: flipping because I think those are really important license Now
Speaker 3: maybe maybe you're thinking about this as being such an
Speaker 3: important aspect because I emphasized that and Grandpa emphasized it
Speaker 3: with me. So underlying everything I just talked about, all
Speaker 3: the experiences that we had hunting and fishing, was a
Speaker 3: really strong sense of how do you be safe? How
Speaker 3: do you be respectful? How do you make sure you're
Speaker 3: doing the right thing and you're doing you're hunting or
Speaker 3: you're fishing or whatever the sport is, whatever the activity is,
Speaker 3: you're doing it with integrity. And that was I think
Speaker 3: an underlying theme in every conversation we had, and that
Speaker 3: was one of those things that was absolutely essential. It
Speaker 3: was it was non negotiable, is the word I'm looking for.
Speaker 3: So we started, we started young with that and that
Speaker 3: I think we had maybe not as many conversations about
Speaker 3: those things as we did, you know, the actual process
Speaker 3: of hunting, but pretty close. I mean, that was pretty important,
Speaker 3: you know, I mean, can you recite the what was
Speaker 3: it to tip? What was the little acronym that Grandpa
Speaker 3: gave you for? How do you carry your weapon and
Speaker 3: use your weapon?
Speaker 2: TPS?
Speaker 3: TPS?
Speaker 2: Yeah, that T stands for trigger. I'll never put your
Speaker 2: finger on the trigger until just before you're about to shoot.
Speaker 2: P stands for points. Never point your gun at anything
Speaker 2: unless you're gonna shoot it. Always keep it up in
Speaker 2: the air, down to the ground, and s always make
Speaker 2: sure your gun is on safety TPS.
Speaker 3: I made my point and that was part of drilled
Speaker 3: into you when you're probably six years.
Speaker 2: Old, right, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3: So you know, I think you need to do. My
Speaker 3: opinion is and everybody is different, So I'm not suggesting
Speaker 3: that my way is the only way or the best way,
Speaker 3: but my opinion is that that's that you do that
Speaker 3: hand in hand with the process of learning how to
Speaker 3: and loving the sport of hunting. It's just as important
Speaker 3: and in some ways even more important, because then these
Speaker 3: are life lessons. This is not to me, hunting and
Speaker 3: fishing is as much about teaching life lessons as it
Speaker 3: is about the sport itself.
Speaker 2: What do you what do you think about what we
Speaker 2: have now in Michigan in many states now where age
Speaker 2: requirements have been removed, So so kind of taking what
Speaker 2: we're talking about here, how there's so many life lessons.
Speaker 2: There's all these different important things we're learning as we
Speaker 2: learn to hunt or fish or shoot. And you know,
Speaker 2: I think kids can be remarkably mature and ready to
Speaker 2: understand the gravity of hunting or fishing to some degree
Speaker 2: at different ages. But you know, you and I were
Speaker 2: forced to wait until we were twelve or fourteen or
Speaker 2: whatever it is before we could actually do the thing
Speaker 2: ourselves because the state regulated it. Now that has been
Speaker 2: removed in many states because we want to have the
Speaker 2: opportunity for kids to hunting fish sooner before they get
Speaker 2: into video games or competitive sports or whatever and never
Speaker 2: have the chance to do it.
Speaker 3: So now, yeah, you and I've had this conversation.
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, So there are a lot of five year
Speaker 2: old kids, six year old kids, seven year old kids
Speaker 2: now who are shooting and killing deer with their dad
Speaker 2: or the grandpa or a mentor with them, but they're
Speaker 2: they're pulling the trigger on animals at five years old,
Speaker 2: six years old? What are your thoughts not, you know,
Speaker 2: we're not necessarily judging other people for their decisions, but
Speaker 2: what are your thoughts on the timing of a kid's
Speaker 2: exposure to that, giving your experience with me, because I'm
Speaker 2: trying to make that decision right now with Ever, Like
Speaker 2: when when Ever wants to shoot a deer? Now he's like,
Speaker 2: I want to do it, I'm ready, Dad. What would
Speaker 2: your guidance be to me as I try to decide
Speaker 2: what that appropriate age will be for him?
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, you and I had this conversation a
Speaker 3: few months ago. When you shared this with me, I
Speaker 3: wasn't aware that many states had lowered or eliminated some
Speaker 3: of those age requirements. I was shocked, quite honestly. I
Speaker 3: really struggle with that because I think, for a couple
Speaker 3: of reasons, there are the mark Kenyans of the world
Speaker 3: who were very mature and very i would say responsible
Speaker 3: at a very young age as they learned how to hunt, okay,
Speaker 3: and you had that structure around you and pounding in
Speaker 3: your head around safety and that sort of and you know,
Speaker 3: respect for the animal and that sort of thing from
Speaker 3: a very young age. But not everybody has that, and
Speaker 3: not everybody is mature mature is at the same rate.
Speaker 3: And I'm really concerned about that that I understand why
Speaker 3: it's being done. I totally understand the need to be
Speaker 3: able to encourage more hunters in the woods, and I
Speaker 3: applaud that, but I'm really concerned about that because I'm
Speaker 3: afraid there are going to be you know, not even
Speaker 3: I'm not even as concerned about there being some terrible
Speaker 3: accident where somebody gets shot, that sort of thing. But
Speaker 3: just this realizes sense of oh, I don't know, casualness,
Speaker 3: casual illness, casualness. I guess the work about you know,
Speaker 3: carrying a firearm or a bow into the woods and
Speaker 3: the impact of that, the potential for an accident. But also,
Speaker 3: and as you know, Mark, one of the things that
Speaker 3: Grandpa really pounded in my head and your head as well,
Speaker 3: is you never shoot a running deer. Now, why did
Speaker 3: he do that?
Speaker 2: You asked me that. The question for me, why did
Speaker 2: he say not to shoot the running deer.
Speaker 3: Why do you think Grandpa not just said it, he
Speaker 3: pounded that in square heads?
Speaker 2: Yeah, because his the rule that we learned was that
Speaker 2: you would only take the most ethical, you know, quick
Speaker 2: killing shot you could out of respect for the animal,
Speaker 2: and that a running shot would not do that right exactly.
Speaker 3: And again I'm not judging somebody who disagrees on other
Speaker 3: circumstances where that may not be possible. But to me,
Speaker 3: my suspicion is that not all parents are not all
Speaker 3: guardians or friends or whatever have that kind of sense.
Speaker 3: So to me, it seems more dangerous, less respectful, and
Speaker 3: more likely that we're going to have hunters in the
Speaker 3: woods who are more likely to kill deer through a wound,
Speaker 3: not through a kill shot where they find the deer
Speaker 3: and you know, harvest it, and there'll be more probability
Speaker 3: for accidents. That's what I'm worried.
Speaker 2: About, because kids are getting to start hunting from a
Speaker 2: younger age. I don't know, if I don't know, if
Speaker 2: I follow.
Speaker 3: You, yes, so not not. I'm not saying in every case.
Speaker 3: I'm saying that kids mature at different rates, and I'm
Speaker 3: concerned about younger kids being in the woods. Now tell
Speaker 3: me if this is true. Mark. As part of that process,
Speaker 3: some of the hunter safety requirements have also been dropped,
Speaker 3: isn't that true?
Speaker 2: So so like in Michigan, you can have if I
Speaker 2: were call the latest the last time I looked into this,
Speaker 2: to bring someone out, you had two years where you
Speaker 2: could apprentice as a hunter, so without having to go
Speaker 2: through hunter safety. You could buy hunting license and hunt
Speaker 2: with a licensed mentor for two years before you had
Speaker 2: to complete hunter safety. So that would give you the
Speaker 2: opportunity to have a kid go out at a younger
Speaker 2: age before they've gone through the whole thing and experience it,
Speaker 2: and then you know, go through the hunter safety thing,
Speaker 2: but again they have to be with a licensed mentor
Speaker 2: who has gone through hunter safety, who has done those things.
Speaker 2: So to Devil's Advocate what you're saying, there could be
Speaker 2: an eight year old who goes with his dad, who
Speaker 2: his dad's sitting right next to there, next to him,
Speaker 2: guides him through everything. He gets this exposure, he gets
Speaker 2: to experience it, he recognizes that he is into this
Speaker 2: and is excited about it. Then he goes to the
Speaker 2: whole hunter safety thing and then eventually when he's older,
Speaker 2: he can go off on his own. So this isn't
Speaker 2: like we're releasing eight year olds into the while by themselves,
Speaker 2: right right, Yeah, And I.
Speaker 3: Feel more comfortable with that, I would say, so an
Speaker 3: apprenticeship kind of approach. I'm more comfortable with so. But
Speaker 3: but again, I'm you know, this is not a yay
Speaker 3: or nay or black and white. I'm just a little
Speaker 3: concerned about so. And it's also a degree. So if
Speaker 3: you're talking eight year olds versus ten year olds versus
Speaker 3: twelve year olds, you know, it was fourteen when I
Speaker 3: first got my first license, and first here we were
Speaker 3: not allowed to hunt younger than that. So I can
Speaker 3: see both sides of the coin and that remark reguard Mark,
Speaker 3: and I do like that apprenticeship kind of mentor approach.
Speaker 3: But it you know, you asked, and that's my kind
Speaker 3: of where I stand.
Speaker 2: Hey, no, I did ask, but you didn't answer my question.
Speaker 2: My question would be what would your guys be to me?
Speaker 2: Not what's your overall opinion on should younger kids be
Speaker 2: able to go hunting? My question is, so.
Speaker 3: You're asking me what should you do with ever Coleton?
Speaker 2: Yeah, what's your advice to me? When I choose when
Speaker 2: Everett should be able to shoot his first turkey or deer,
Speaker 2: because he can accurately shoot a baby gun right now,
Speaker 2: and next year he'll probably be shooting a four ten
Speaker 2: or something or twenty two, and a year or two
Speaker 2: after that, I'm sure he'll be able to shoot a
Speaker 2: two seventy or a three fifty or whatever. So within
Speaker 2: a few years he will be I'm pretty dark confident
Speaker 2: he will be able to effectively shoot a weapon that
Speaker 2: would kill a deer or a turkey by the time
Speaker 2: he's let's say eight, If not, probably could do it sooner,
Speaker 2: but let's just conservatively say I'm confident he could do
Speaker 2: that by then. So if you and I were sitting
Speaker 2: drinking coffee and I told you, hey, man, Everett could
Speaker 2: do it. He can pull the trigger and the thing.
Speaker 2: He's consistently effective. He wants to go, he wants to
Speaker 2: get his first dear, he wants to get his first turkey.
Speaker 2: What would your father advice be to me about the
Speaker 2: appropriate age or how to come to determine what that
Speaker 2: appropriate age is for us? How do you how do
Speaker 2: you approach that?
Speaker 3: So now it's a little bit unfair because I know you,
Speaker 3: and I know your experience and I know how you
Speaker 3: approach that right, So with you, quite honestly, I mean
Speaker 3: to speak out of both sides of my mouth. I
Speaker 3: won't be concerned, but from a legislative perspective or a
Speaker 3: regulatory perspective, I.
Speaker 2: Don't care about that about I don't care about that.
Speaker 2: All I want is just give just give me the advice.
Speaker 3: I think you should do it.
Speaker 2: That's that's all I want. But but tell me more
Speaker 2: that you still not answer my question?
Speaker 3: Dad? Yeah, what else is it? Right?
Speaker 2: What do you what's your advice to me about how
Speaker 2: I think about this, how how I determine that proper
Speaker 2: age forever? So let's play what questions would you ask me?
Speaker 3: Yeah, let's play Devil's advocate a little bit. Okay, Now,
Speaker 3: I'm I don't mean to put you on the spot
Speaker 3: with your kids, but let me let me do that
Speaker 3: just because I know them fairly well. And so you
Speaker 3: describe Everett and his passion for hunting and his carefulness
Speaker 3: around hunting. You've been coaching and I've watched you do this.
Speaker 3: You are very careful. You do exactly what my dad
Speaker 3: did with me and with you, So and Everett also
Speaker 3: has this really intense focus on hunting, so he listens
Speaker 3: to everything you say and he applies it uniquely. I mean,
Speaker 3: he's taken almost as if he's writing everything down and
Speaker 3: reviewing it every time he does, you know, something related
Speaker 3: to that. And again I'm not suggesting that Colet and
Speaker 3: someone like this, he very well can be. He's two
Speaker 3: years younger, who knows, But let's say he wasn't. Let's
Speaker 3: say he was a little less careful, a little bit
Speaker 3: more uncautious, or a little bit more spontaneous. Right. You know,
Speaker 3: you need as a parent to be able to read
Speaker 3: the differences in your kids and how they approach them
Speaker 3: and then to modify your style from a coaching perspective
Speaker 3: from a hunting and fishing perspective accordingly. And you may
Speaker 3: decide I think it's appropriate. What I'm really saying is
Speaker 3: I'm asking your question by saying, this is what I
Speaker 3: would do if if Colton, just from a maturity perspective,
Speaker 3: is not ready, or if he's a little bit too
Speaker 3: you know, quick to take a shot, for example, then
Speaker 3: you know you have to be careful on you know,
Speaker 3: how the kids compare themselves and that sort of thing.
Speaker 3: But that's a scenario where I would I would pull back.
Speaker 3: I would say I try to do it in a
Speaker 3: way that he doesn't take it personally, but I try
Speaker 3: to position up a perspective of maybe it's ten for him,
Speaker 3: not eight. But so I don't know if he answers
Speaker 3: your question. Yeah, but that's a little closer what I
Speaker 3: think you're looking for.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think that the overall point is it
Speaker 2: comes down to knowing your child and reading their maturity,
Speaker 2: understanding what they are ready for and what they aren't,
Speaker 2: and taking that really seriously, because I do think that
Speaker 2: there is a there is a big upside right to
Speaker 2: be able to getting your kid out there and give
Speaker 2: them these opportunities. But then there's also this big, significant
Speaker 2: risk if you have if you take a child out
Speaker 2: that's relatively young and they have a really negative experience. Yes,
Speaker 2: you know, there's there's a real risk of like they
Speaker 2: make a bad shot, or they make some kind of
Speaker 2: mistake that ruins it all. So that's something you want
Speaker 2: to guard against too. So so yeah, I'm definitely thinking
Speaker 2: about that. And so that brings me to another one
Speaker 2: of these things that I thought a lot about, which
Speaker 2: is what about you know, kind of continuing in this
Speaker 2: same vein what about you know how you exposed me
Speaker 2: or taught me about seeing a dead animal, gutting a deer,
Speaker 2: seeing the blotting gore. I mean I remember being around
Speaker 2: you know, seeing I mean we've told the stories before,
Speaker 2: folks that have seen it, maybe in some of those shows.
Speaker 2: Like as a kid, I love standing next to the
Speaker 2: buck pole, staring at the dead deer, examining their corpses,
Speaker 2: looking up into their insides. I mean, I was fascinated
Speaker 2: by all that. But what were you thinking as a
Speaker 2: as a dad? We're worried at all about me? You know,
Speaker 2: I don't know about being exposed to that too early?
Speaker 2: Or is it? Can it not be early enough? Because
Speaker 2: the earlier you are exposed to it, the less it
Speaker 2: seems like a weird thing to be scared of or
Speaker 2: worried about. You know, I have I have thoughts, and
Speaker 2: I've an approach, but I'm curious what yours was.
Speaker 3: Yeah, my attitude towards that as a camp be early enough. Now, yeah,
Speaker 3: I think it needs to be couched from the perspective
Speaker 3: of this is part of life. This is part of
Speaker 3: the respect we have for the animal and for this
Speaker 3: gift that we have right of nature and of deer
Speaker 3: and fish and whatever wild game we're talking about. But yeah,
Speaker 3: I don't that's a that's a case where and again
Speaker 3: I think you do need to read the child. Again,
Speaker 3: this is a really important component of everything we're talking about.
Speaker 3: So there's not one size spits off. So it may
Speaker 3: be perfectly fine forever. It may not be perfectly fine
Speaker 3: for cold and that's okay. So I think you need
Speaker 3: to take that into account and allow the kids to
Speaker 3: kind of help guide that perspective. Now, sometimes it may
Speaker 3: be that there's maybe a fear of something that might
Speaker 3: be stronger than it should be. You might want to
Speaker 3: push back on that a little bit or help mitigate that.
Speaker 3: But in general, I think you need to read the
Speaker 3: audience and act accordingly.
Speaker 2: Speaking of differences with children, you have me, who became
Speaker 2: a hunting and fishing fool, right, I mean, I'm obsessed
Speaker 2: with it. It has become the sun that my world
Speaker 2: revolves around. It has become my passion, my career, all
Speaker 2: of these things that's my life revolves around the outdoors
Speaker 2: in the natural world. Then we have my sister Kristen,
Speaker 2: who does not hunt. She I wouldn't say she really fishes.
Speaker 2: She's fished a handful times, but she doesn't fish independently.
Speaker 2: She likes nature, she gets out here and there for
Speaker 2: some camping and hiking, but it's in no way what
Speaker 2: my relationship with the outdoor world is.
Speaker 3: Yes.
Speaker 2: Yes, When you look back on your parenting between me
Speaker 2: and Kristen, is there anything you can point to? I
Speaker 2: guess my question for is why is that? Do you
Speaker 2: think that was just? Is that just because of who
Speaker 2: she is? Or do you think that And this might
Speaker 2: be a hard thing to talk about, maybe maybe not,
Speaker 2: I don't know, but did you parent her in any
Speaker 2: kind of different way, if you were being honest with yourself,
Speaker 2: that maybe led to her having a different experience than
Speaker 2: I did.
Speaker 3: So that's a really, really, really good question. And I
Speaker 3: thought a lot about that because I so I guess
Speaker 3: the first honest answer is I really don't know. But
Speaker 3: there are some things that I guess I think back
Speaker 3: on and think that maybe there were so Christian. Kristin
Speaker 3: had a different bent. Her passion, her explicit passion, the
Speaker 3: things she talked about, the things she really seemed to
Speaker 3: gravitate to, was something very different. It was horseback riding
Speaker 3: and anything related to horses. So we fed that habit, right,
Speaker 3: We never never really tried to push her in a
Speaker 3: different direction or guide her direction. We saw that that
Speaker 3: strong interest, and we thought of that as her passion
Speaker 3: and we encouraged it. And as I say, we fed
Speaker 3: the habit. So that meant finding a person who had horses,
Speaker 3: who was learning how to ride it, was doing you know,
Speaker 3: competitive racing like she did for ten years, was all
Speaker 3: those kinds of things. Now, having said that, I think
Speaker 3: a mom and I were very invomed in that right
Speaker 3: where in that as we were with you in hunting
Speaker 3: and fishing. But you know, looking back in retrospect, and
Speaker 3: Christen's made some you know a few comments along the
Speaker 3: way that lead me to believe that she kind of
Speaker 3: felt left out that I favored you for going up
Speaker 3: to the cabin or going hunting or going fishing or whatever,
Speaker 3: when maybe there was more of an interest in her
Speaker 3: doing it than we realized. So yeah, I mean, I
Speaker 3: think that's the honest answer. I don't really know, and
Speaker 3: she would I think she would tease, you know, she
Speaker 3: would joke about it, but I'm not sure how serious
Speaker 3: she is that she you know, that I would always
Speaker 3: take you up and not take her. But I do
Speaker 3: kind of look back and then say, wow, did I
Speaker 3: miss an opportunity? Should I have spent more time with her?
Speaker 3: It wasn't a conscious thing, but yeah, I minut it's
Speaker 3: a good question. Unfortunately, I don't have a really good
Speaker 3: answer for you other than that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so looking back, what would you say? Yeah, well, actually,
Speaker 2: before we go here, you mentioned the feed the habit thing,
Speaker 2: right you said you said you did that with me
Speaker 2: and with her was with the horseback riding. Can you
Speaker 2: just elaborate on that a little bit because I do
Speaker 2: feel like that has been one of the one of
Speaker 2: the great lessons I've learned from you, was this idea
Speaker 2: of feeding the habit. Can you just expand a little
Speaker 2: bit on what that looked like more? I mean you
Speaker 2: earlier you talked about that was like buying the gear,
Speaker 2: but it was more than that. Can you can you
Speaker 2: just elaborate on that a little bit more and how
Speaker 2: that helped?
Speaker 3: Yeah. So I think it's a combination of three or
Speaker 3: four things. One is talking about it, having conversations around it,
Speaker 3: understanding what your interests were around that topic, yours being
Speaker 3: primarily hunting, and fishing, and Christen's being horseback riding and
Speaker 3: then learning about it, being an active engager with your
Speaker 3: child and so that they know that you care about
Speaker 3: what they care about. And again, this is relationship building, right,
Speaker 3: This is more than just getting out in the woods.
Speaker 3: This is about life lessons. So I think that's part
Speaker 3: of it. Yes, what I saw and partially with my dad,
Speaker 3: but that was kind of the age, you know, thirty
Speaker 3: four years ago. But I see this with other people
Speaker 3: as well, where they they kind of you know, when
Speaker 3: it gets down to them bringing their kids into their sport,
Speaker 3: they're more interested in making sure they have the best equipment,
Speaker 3: the best stuff, whatever it is. And then they either
Speaker 3: give hand me down to or they they buy the
Speaker 3: you know, Walmart stuff for their kids. And in some
Speaker 3: respects that doesn't matter, right, kids may be too young
Speaker 3: or may not necessarily care what kind of rifle they're
Speaker 3: carrying or whatever. But in many cases it sends a message, right,
Speaker 3: It sends a subtle thing that that maybe it's not
Speaker 3: as important, you're not as important or whatever. And I'm
Speaker 3: not talking again about buying the best stuff. I'm talking
Speaker 3: about having them actively participate in that. And then I
Speaker 3: think the third thing that I think we did with
Speaker 3: you is we we you know, we we got involved
Speaker 3: in kind of the community around deer hunting. So we
Speaker 3: read a lot of magazines, we you and I. I
Speaker 3: don't remember how many times you and I went and
Speaker 3: beast feasts and that sort of thing with other hunters. Right,
Speaker 3: We got involved with the community around you know, our
Speaker 3: cabin and the people in the cabin around the cabin
Speaker 3: that we talked to, around the hunting that was going on.
Speaker 3: So it's just the whole atmosphere, the environment, and I
Speaker 3: think that's really important. So, you know, I say that
Speaker 3: that's kind of the the overall perspective that I would
Speaker 3: take around that perspective of feeding the habit Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that that if I were to look
Speaker 2: back on things and say what led me to be
Speaker 2: who I am, A lot of it was was that
Speaker 2: it was it was putting rocket fuel behind anything I
Speaker 2: indicated I was interested in. So it was Yes, when
Speaker 2: I showed that love for hunting fishing, you were fanning
Speaker 2: the flames. I didn't have to fight for time to
Speaker 2: go hunting and fishing. I didn't have to fight for
Speaker 2: the fishing rod. You know, you saw something that you
Speaker 2: viewed as positive for me, and then you you fan
Speaker 2: those flames, you make that happen. That you were in
Speaker 2: no way slowing that down. You were helping that. You
Speaker 2: were giving me the push there and supporting that with gear,
Speaker 2: with your time, and and to your point, the community
Speaker 2: thing was no small thing. I think just the idea
Speaker 2: of like being able to be a part of the group,
Speaker 2: like being with the men up at deer Camp. That
Speaker 2: was pretty transformational for me too. Just getting to be
Speaker 2: in the room, hear the stories, be a part of that.
Speaker 2: That was so I mean, I don't know, maybe you
Speaker 2: remember when you were a kid hanging out with your
Speaker 2: dad and Jerry and those guys like you felt like
Speaker 2: you were bigger than you were and you were part
Speaker 2: of this very exciting, manly adult thing that was like
Speaker 2: a dream and you get to be a part of
Speaker 2: it and that was pretty special. So I can point
Speaker 2: to a lot of things like that that I look
Speaker 2: back on that that were great, that worked, that got
Speaker 2: me to where I am. What about what didn't work?
Speaker 2: Do you remember anything? Is there anything when you look
Speaker 2: back on raising me that you realize, like, man, this
Speaker 2: is not working well or I really screwed that up
Speaker 2: or I made a big mistake there, so so you know, yes.
Speaker 3: But it's probably not in a way that you would expect.
Speaker 3: And I kind of alluded to this before. You know,
Speaker 3: it's not that I screwed up or we screwed up
Speaker 3: and helping you discover your sport or you're passionate for
Speaker 3: your sport. It's more that that moment of recognition when
Speaker 3: I realized that the mantle had kind of been transferred
Speaker 3: from me to you, and that's that is. You know.
Speaker 3: I think we all, again, especially men, maybe not exclusively men,
Speaker 3: we all have a we all have a need to
Speaker 3: feel like we're good at something, we're successful at something,
Speaker 3: we can we can beat our competitors. You know, this
Speaker 3: is just overall sense, and I think whether we acknowledge
Speaker 3: it or not, we all want to feel that way
Speaker 3: with our kids as well, until they're adults, right. I
Speaker 3: think we all consciously think, well, when they're adults, they're
Speaker 3: you know, they're having their own careers. They have, But
Speaker 3: when your twelve year old son can outbeat you, outfish
Speaker 3: you in a tournament, that's a little humbling and I
Speaker 3: think that's okay. I think that's what I learned is
Speaker 3: I started shifting my perspective from personal success to celebrating
Speaker 3: your success and not and not seeing that as a
Speaker 3: personal front or somehow as a you know, a weakness.
Speaker 3: It was a strength. It's great to see your kids
Speaker 3: and then and then actually step back to a different role.
Speaker 3: So I would say, certainly, in the last twenty years,
Speaker 3: since you've been in this role and your passion has
Speaker 3: grown and your knowledge has grown, the roles have changed.
Speaker 3: So now I'm the mentee and you're the tur and
Speaker 3: that's fine.
Speaker 2: Was that was that hard when that first began? Did
Speaker 2: you resist that? Did you was there? Did we ever
Speaker 2: butt heads or did you ever want to put me
Speaker 2: in my place? Tell me a shut up and listen?
Speaker 2: I mean, what was that experience?
Speaker 3: Like? Well, I think we did butt heads a little bit, right,
Speaker 3: and those I think and you probably can recall a
Speaker 3: few of these instances as well where I would say something,
Speaker 3: you say, well, Dad, that's not quite right, and I think, uh, again,
Speaker 3: going back to relationships, our relationship is such that it
Speaker 3: was fine, but there is a little bit of personal
Speaker 3: pride and perspective that relationship changes, just like you know,
Speaker 3: kind of similar to the process of aging. You know, you,
Speaker 3: as you get older, your your role changes a little bit,
Speaker 3: and I think that I think you need to do
Speaker 3: that gracefully is really what I'm what I'm trying to say,
Speaker 3: recognize and celebrate and encourage this success of your kids.
Speaker 3: In your case, I mean, you way far surpassed and
Speaker 3: most every aspect of hunting anything I ever did. And
Speaker 3: I think that's phenomenal now.
Speaker 2: And fishing too, fishing too, don't forget that.
Speaker 3: Thanks a lot. But it's not just that, it's also
Speaker 3: recognizing that that I can it's okay, and I want
Speaker 3: to learn and grow through you. So that's okay, and
Speaker 3: that's tremendous. And because we have that relationship, we have
Speaker 3: fun doing it so we can joke about it. You know.
Speaker 3: That's I think that's really important. But I think that
Speaker 3: that is a risk I think and maybe could be
Speaker 3: threatening some dads and some moms who are teaching their
Speaker 3: kids how to hunter fish when they go through that transition,
Speaker 3: that can be a little bit threatening at times.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So we were talking about this the other day.
Speaker 2: You and I were up at the up a deer camp.
Speaker 2: We were driving home. We are in the drive through
Speaker 2: at McDonald and I brought up a statistic I recently heard,
Speaker 2: which was something along the lines of, on average, you
Speaker 2: will the average American will have experienced eighty percent of
Speaker 2: their time with their child by the time their child
Speaker 2: turns eighteen. So eighty percent of the time you will
Speaker 2: get with your kids over your entire life happens eighty
Speaker 2: percent happens before they turn eighteen and are out the door.
Speaker 2: That was a very like eye opening thing for me.
Speaker 2: So what I'm getting at here is that those years
Speaker 2: where your child is living at home and you have
Speaker 2: this close intimate opportunity to experience these hunting and fishing
Speaker 2: memories and adventures and outings, that's like a fleeting thing. It's
Speaker 2: this I've been having this realization myself as it's gone
Speaker 2: so fast, like it seems like yesterday I didn't have kids,
Speaker 2: and now I have a five year old going on
Speaker 2: six's who can do almost everything, and who's who I'm
Speaker 2: realizing is so quickly going to be like like you're
Speaker 2: talking about, he's going to be surpassing me and he's
Speaker 2: gonna be out there doing his own things. And I
Speaker 2: guess I'm just realizing that this thing is flying in
Speaker 2: front of my eyes, and it's it's something I feel
Speaker 2: like I'm still trying to figure out how to do it.
Speaker 2: And before I even figure out how to do it,
Speaker 2: it's going to be done. So when you look back,
Speaker 2: you look back on those years with me and Kristen.
Speaker 2: You look at those eighteen years when we were there
Speaker 2: at home with you and I was going to ken
Speaker 2: Revean with you as a kid, and we were sitting
Speaker 2: the blind together, or we were in the boat up
Speaker 2: in Canada catching walleye, or we were walking through the swamp.
Speaker 2: Two things I would ask, number one, what do you
Speaker 2: cherish the most from those years? What stands out above
Speaker 2: everything else as the great takeaway from those years? And
Speaker 2: then secondly, do you have any regrets threats? Do you
Speaker 2: regret anything that either happened or did not happen over
Speaker 2: those years?
Speaker 3: Good questions. So what do I cherish the most? Is
Speaker 3: the one on one time? It is it is the
Speaker 3: so our sport, whether it was hunting or fishing, became
Speaker 3: the It was the rallying point. It was the thing
Speaker 3: that we were doing together. It was the context. But
Speaker 3: that was providing the context for some of the best conversations,
Speaker 3: some of the most intimate moments, some of the most
Speaker 3: vulnerable moments that I've ever had with you, And same
Speaker 3: thing's true with Kristin. Now with Kristin was a little
Speaker 3: bit different because it was usually Mom and I and
Speaker 3: we were doing group things, not so much one on one.
Speaker 3: And I say, that's my regret, my regret with Kristin
Speaker 3: as I wish I had found a one on one
Speaker 3: activity where I could have spent more one on one
Speaker 3: time with her. It's really you know, the old adage
Speaker 3: of quality time and that sort of in my opinion,
Speaker 3: that's bunk. There is no such thing as quality time.
Speaker 3: There's just time and focus and personal one on one
Speaker 3: time with your child and whatever context, hopefully a positive,
Speaker 3: encouraging and fun environment. Those are the opportunities. That's the
Speaker 3: opportunity for those relationships to grow. What I love so
Speaker 3: much about hunting and fishing is that it's not just
Speaker 3: an opportunity for the two of you to get together
Speaker 3: for a moment. It's usually at least hours long, if
Speaker 3: not days long, So you just have this wonderful context
Speaker 3: to be close, to be vulnerable, to talk about things
Speaker 3: you normally and you know you and I always joke
Speaker 3: about that right, Mark, we have some of our best
Speaker 3: conversations in the car going up to the cabin and
Speaker 3: coming back to the cabin. I mean, that's the opportunity.
Speaker 3: And so you know, my own regret is kind of
Speaker 3: going back to what you said a few minutes ago.
Speaker 3: That time, that first eighteen years goes by so fast,
Speaker 3: and one of the one of the challenges I think
Speaker 3: we've had, and I think most parents who have good
Speaker 3: relationships with their kids have, is you just wish you
Speaker 3: had more. You just wish you who. You know, during
Speaker 3: the period of time when your kids are young, you're
Speaker 3: so focused on your career. You're so focused on things
Speaker 3: that in the big scheme of things, frankly, just don't
Speaker 3: matter much that by the time you realize that kids
Speaker 3: are grown and they're off doing their thing, and now
Speaker 3: you try to make up for it by doing that
Speaker 3: with your grandkids. Right, So, you know, the younger you
Speaker 3: can realize that, the sooner you develop those kinds of
Speaker 3: habits with your family, I think, the happier you'll be,
Speaker 3: the happier they'll be, and the longer those relationships and
Speaker 3: deeper those relationships will be.
Speaker 2: Yeah, if if you for whatever reason, we're told that
Speaker 2: today is the last day ever that you can give
Speaker 2: your son a piece of advice when it comes to
Speaker 2: this hunting and fishing, raising children to become hunters and anglers,
Speaker 2: to appreciate the outdoors, to when it comes to all this.
Speaker 2: If today, right now was your last opportunity to leave
Speaker 2: me with two thoughts, you've got two final thoughts of
Speaker 2: everything we've talked about here, or maybe something we haven't
Speaker 2: talked about, if you had to synthesize it down, if
Speaker 2: you had to distill everything we've covered down to the
Speaker 2: two simple things that I absolutely must take away from
Speaker 2: this conversation and carry with me for the rest of
Speaker 2: my life. And you will not have another opportunity ever
Speaker 2: to tell me these things. What would those two things
Speaker 2: be dead?
Speaker 3: Find? Okay, two things. First, find a way to build strong,
Speaker 3: deep relationships with your kids. And again, there is no
Speaker 3: such thing as quality time. Quality time as well. Gee,
Speaker 3: if I spend an hour with them a week doing something,
Speaker 3: that's that's enough. It's not. Find a way to make
Speaker 3: time one on one with your kids. And two, find
Speaker 3: a way to help them feel important. And when I mean,
Speaker 3: what I mean by that is not haughty, but that
Speaker 3: they're loved unconditionally, and that there's nothing in this world
Speaker 3: that can make you love them many last. And I
Speaker 3: think that's part of what being a good parent is.
Speaker 3: It's building that sense of self worth in your child,
Speaker 3: that sense of confidence, that sense of of you know,
Speaker 3: at the end of the day, I know who I am,
Speaker 3: I know I am loved. I know that nothing, no
Speaker 3: matter how rough the situations in life are, that I'm
Speaker 3: going to make it. And I think the time. It
Speaker 3: sounds cliche, but I truly believe that a time in
Speaker 3: the woods, the time and the boat, the time in
Speaker 3: the stream, if you approach it from that perspective, is
Speaker 3: the way you do that, or at least one of
Speaker 3: the ways you do that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, wise, wise words dead. I am very fortunate
Speaker 2: to uh to have had you teaching me those things
Speaker 2: and uh and raising me that way. So thank you
Speaker 2: for that, and thank you for chatting about all this
Speaker 2: publicly in front of I'm not in front of, but
Speaker 2: verbally in front of a whole lot of folks. I
Speaker 2: I appreciate it. I think this has been great.
Speaker 3: Thank you, Mark.
Speaker 2: And let's uh, let's just say I'll remove that rule
Speaker 2: off the table. You are allowed to continue giving advice
Speaker 2: into the future, all right, I will. I will continue
Speaker 2: to take your wisdom and insights because I still got
Speaker 2: a lot to learn. So don't feel like you're stuck.
Speaker 3: Funny, funny, how that's completely turn around. I'm usually asking
Speaker 3: you questions and learning from you and getting all that.
Speaker 3: So you know, remember that whole you know, the tables
Speaker 3: are turned thing. But I think that's you know, as
Speaker 3: you as you develop your relationship with your kids into adulthood,
Speaker 3: those relationships become friendships as opposed to mentoring and coaching, right,
Speaker 3: And I am thrilled and blessed to have the relationship
Speaker 3: with you and Krystal.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's pretty good stuff. And I guess on that note,
Speaker 2: let's let's wrap this one up and hopefully we can
Speaker 2: come back and do another podcast a few years down
Speaker 2: the road from now, and we can be talking about
Speaker 2: however it got his first deer or his first turkey,
Speaker 2: or the great memories we've been able to build up
Speaker 2: at Ken Rovan and some success that we've had up there. Hopefully,
Speaker 2: I trust we're gonna have some good stories in the
Speaker 2: next five to ten years to share.
Speaker 3: Sounds great, Mark, Thank you all.
Speaker 2: Right there, you have it. Thank you for tuning in.
Speaker 2: I hope there was something interesting in here. Hope you
Speaker 2: were able to garner a few insights, something that will
Speaker 2: help inspire you in your own either as a parent
Speaker 2: now or down the road, if that's in the cards
Speaker 2: for you. Like I said at the top, this is
Speaker 2: the pinnacle of hunting and fishing in my opinion, right,
Speaker 2: I don't care about the big bucks, I don't care
Speaker 2: about the trophy turout bringing our kids into this world,
Speaker 2: into this tradition, into this pursuit and lifestyle. Man, there's
Speaker 2: no bigger win than that. There's no more meaningful trophy,
Speaker 2: experience and achievement and way of life than sharing these
Speaker 2: outdoor pursuits with our kids. So let's give it the
Speaker 2: same attention, passion, and obsession that we do for our deer, hunting,
Speaker 2: our fishing, whatever it is. So thank you, Thanks for
Speaker 2: taking time to dive into this with you, Thanks for
Speaker 2: being here, and until next time, stay wired.