1 00:00:08,400 --> 00:00:12,240 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots Podcast. 2 00:00:12,360 --> 00:00:16,560 Speaker 1: I'm Joe and I'm Tracy. Alliwit, So, Tracy, you know, 3 00:00:16,640 --> 00:00:19,800 Speaker 1: what's something that both of us have in common? Oh? God, 4 00:00:19,920 --> 00:00:23,239 Speaker 1: it could be any number of things, couldn't it. Yeah, 5 00:00:23,320 --> 00:00:26,000 Speaker 1: now it's true, there's probably a number of things. Both 6 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:29,520 Speaker 1: of us are very old. Wait, you're older than I am. 7 00:00:29,680 --> 00:00:32,520 Speaker 1: So I'm going to go ahead and say, speak for yourself. Joe. Wait, 8 00:00:32,720 --> 00:00:35,479 Speaker 1: you are I am? Yeah, you're like three years older 9 00:00:35,479 --> 00:00:38,400 Speaker 1: than I am. Wait. Really, yes, I thought we were 10 00:00:38,440 --> 00:00:41,200 Speaker 1: the same age. Oh my god. I actually I honestly 11 00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:43,960 Speaker 1: thought we were the same You don't know me at all, thanks, Joe. Okay, 12 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:46,640 Speaker 1: so that if that's the case, then that makes me 13 00:00:46,800 --> 00:00:49,920 Speaker 1: not a millennial. But you are clearly a millennial because 14 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:54,440 Speaker 1: I've always heard that one two or something like that 15 00:00:54,560 --> 00:00:56,560 Speaker 1: is the cut off, and so you're clearly on the 16 00:00:56,560 --> 00:00:59,160 Speaker 1: other side of the cut off than I am. I yeah, 17 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:01,720 Speaker 1: I mean people are about the definition of millennials all 18 00:01:01,760 --> 00:01:05,280 Speaker 1: the time, but by most definitions, I am included in 19 00:01:05,319 --> 00:01:08,440 Speaker 1: that much maligned bracket, and you are not. I guess 20 00:01:08,880 --> 00:01:11,240 Speaker 1: I honestly never knew you were a millennial. Like I'm Sorry. 21 00:01:11,240 --> 00:01:12,840 Speaker 1: I'm kind of blown away by this because I was 22 00:01:12,880 --> 00:01:15,480 Speaker 1: expecting a whole intro of like, we can't relate to millennials, 23 00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:17,920 Speaker 1: and I didn't realize I was co hosting a podcast 24 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:21,319 Speaker 1: with a millennial. I've hidden it, well, haven't I. I've 25 00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:24,000 Speaker 1: also ruined your interest. This is blowing my mind right now. 26 00:01:24,680 --> 00:01:28,680 Speaker 1: Oh God, why are we talking about millennials? Well, you know, 27 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:32,240 Speaker 1: like in the media, obviously, as you say, much maligned generation, 28 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:36,199 Speaker 1: the media has some very stereotypical ways of talking about 29 00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:41,000 Speaker 1: millennials and these broad strokes. It's like millennials don't want houses, 30 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:45,520 Speaker 1: they just want to buy avocados, or millennials are only 31 00:01:45,600 --> 00:01:50,600 Speaker 1: interested in investing this way or whatever it is, and 32 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:54,640 Speaker 1: it's always very embarrassing, sort of reductionist form of coverage. 33 00:01:55,480 --> 00:01:57,720 Speaker 1: And you know, however, it's like we kind of have 34 00:01:57,760 --> 00:01:59,920 Speaker 1: to move on. It's kind of it's there's got to 35 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:03,320 Speaker 1: be a better way. As a long suffering millennial, I 36 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:06,600 Speaker 1: completely agree with your analysis, and I would also say 37 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:08,960 Speaker 1: that one of my pet peeves is people writing about 38 00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:13,480 Speaker 1: millennials as if we're somehow a separate subspecies of human 39 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:18,280 Speaker 1: beings with completely different desires and behaviors. It's still so 40 00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:20,000 Speaker 1: weird to me that you said is if weird? I 41 00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:22,359 Speaker 1: just was not. I'm sorry. I'm still having a hard 42 00:02:22,360 --> 00:02:24,920 Speaker 1: time getting over that. It's still weird to me, but 43 00:02:25,160 --> 00:02:27,400 Speaker 1: I'll get it. Yes, is if you're you and your 44 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:31,000 Speaker 1: type are a different type of human. Yes. So anyway, 45 00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:35,000 Speaker 1: as you say, we should probably rethink it, totally bust 46 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:40,680 Speaker 1: up these impressions that we have about this subspecies called millennials, 47 00:02:40,720 --> 00:02:44,680 Speaker 1: and the ramifications of this are huge because of buying power, 48 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:49,200 Speaker 1: economic cloud, political cloud. Every time there's a new generation, 49 00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:52,119 Speaker 1: things are going to change, so we should probably try 50 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:55,560 Speaker 1: to get it right. I completely agree. Um, so how 51 00:02:55,600 --> 00:02:57,480 Speaker 1: are we? First of all, can I just say I 52 00:02:57,560 --> 00:03:00,320 Speaker 1: totally distrust you, as a non millennial to represent our 53 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:01,960 Speaker 1: best interests. So it's going to be up to me 54 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:06,760 Speaker 1: in this podcast. Who are we having on them today? 55 00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:09,519 Speaker 1: I'm very excited about our guest. His name is Malcolm Harris. 56 00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:12,200 Speaker 1: He's a writer, and he is the author of a 57 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:15,720 Speaker 1: recent book called Kids These Days, Human Capital and the 58 00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:20,120 Speaker 1: Making of Millennials, which, if I sort of interpret that 59 00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:24,720 Speaker 1: title correctly, may imply that a lot of making of millennials, 60 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:28,200 Speaker 1: that there's an element of a sort of social construct 61 00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:30,880 Speaker 1: here that the way we talk about millennials is somehow 62 00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:35,400 Speaker 1: forced and artificial, and maybe there is a a better 63 00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:39,560 Speaker 1: way of understanding this generation millennials as a construct of 64 00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:48,040 Speaker 1: global capitalism. I love it already, Malcolm, Thank you very 65 00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:51,520 Speaker 1: much for johning us. Thanks for having me. John. So 66 00:03:51,840 --> 00:03:54,440 Speaker 1: I've mentioned in the intro that there is this sort 67 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:58,920 Speaker 1: of cliche way in which the media talks about millennials. 68 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:02,119 Speaker 1: I joke and you know, said, you guys all want 69 00:04:02,200 --> 00:04:06,200 Speaker 1: to your millennial, right, I am. We have a number 70 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:10,480 Speaker 1: you now on this podcast, definitely a numbered on the podcast. 71 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:14,040 Speaker 1: You want to spend all your money out avocados instead 72 00:04:14,080 --> 00:04:16,880 Speaker 1: of buying a mortgage, instead of getting a mortgage. But 73 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:21,880 Speaker 1: I'm curious, you know, when you think about how millennials 74 00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:26,479 Speaker 1: have been constructed, what you mean by that specifically, Well, 75 00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:28,599 Speaker 1: it's interesting. One of the first the first thing you 76 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:32,799 Speaker 1: said when you said millennials right, was buying power. And 77 00:04:33,720 --> 00:04:38,160 Speaker 1: because the easiest data we have for any cohort period 78 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:42,880 Speaker 1: is purchased data, It's really easy to get information about consumption. 79 00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:46,039 Speaker 1: It's really hard to get information about anything else, and 80 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:49,520 Speaker 1: it takes years of scholarship, and it's not as flashy, 81 00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:53,720 Speaker 1: but consumption data is really easy, and there's an incentive 82 00:04:53,760 --> 00:04:57,560 Speaker 1: for people who are selling things to have these consumption profiles. 83 00:04:58,040 --> 00:05:00,680 Speaker 1: And so the first voices we hear to finding any 84 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:05,800 Speaker 1: generational cohort these days are marketers who are basing their 85 00:05:05,880 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 1: ideas off of consumption patterns. That's not how I think 86 00:05:11,440 --> 00:05:14,760 Speaker 1: of generations. It's not I think how generations are most 87 00:05:14,839 --> 00:05:20,160 Speaker 1: usefully understood as aggregates of purchasing power. So instead of 88 00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:23,400 Speaker 1: going just by you know, it's sort of like generational 89 00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:27,760 Speaker 1: bucket and arbitrary generational bucket that's chosen by marketers, what 90 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:32,320 Speaker 1: do you base your definition on them? So when I 91 00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:36,839 Speaker 1: went to look at what is structuring this cohort of workers, 92 00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:39,280 Speaker 1: which is how I look at you know, most members 93 00:05:39,320 --> 00:05:43,080 Speaker 1: of this cohort accurate as as producers, not as consumers. 94 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:47,120 Speaker 1: And so I was looking at, first of all, the 95 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:52,839 Speaker 1: research into what differentiates generations empirically in terms of they're 96 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:56,680 Speaker 1: like personal characteristics, their attitudes towards the world, and a 97 00:05:56,680 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 1: lot of that was about the social environment, the political, 98 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:04,360 Speaker 1: social economic environment, and not you know, quick changes. It's 99 00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:07,839 Speaker 1: not like nine eleven, you know, had a psychological effect 100 00:06:07,880 --> 00:06:12,440 Speaker 1: that has constructed this generation. Necessarily, it's about long term 101 00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:16,640 Speaker 1: secular shifts in the economy. And so the biggest one 102 00:06:17,040 --> 00:06:20,000 Speaker 1: and the one that I think defines this generation more 103 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:24,680 Speaker 1: than anything, is this divergence between compensation and productivity that 104 00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:29,159 Speaker 1: emerges exactly when we start being born and has continued 105 00:06:29,480 --> 00:06:34,560 Speaker 1: expanding since then. Before we get into sort of diving 106 00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:38,760 Speaker 1: into your framework, I find that just your point to 107 00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:41,640 Speaker 1: be both really interesting and simple, Which is this idea 108 00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:43,919 Speaker 1: that yeah, marketers come up with all these things and 109 00:06:43,960 --> 00:06:47,960 Speaker 1: then they get to define the rules of what aspects 110 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:51,680 Speaker 1: are most important, and of course they care about spending patterns. 111 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:56,280 Speaker 1: Is this new in the sense that previous generations where 112 00:06:56,279 --> 00:06:59,040 Speaker 1: they defined by marketers as well, or is this because 113 00:06:59,040 --> 00:07:03,200 Speaker 1: of the emergence of a marketing class that now Millennials, 114 00:07:03,279 --> 00:07:07,520 Speaker 1: Generation Z, every generation will now sort of be defined 115 00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:10,760 Speaker 1: by characteristics that maybe people didn't think about as much 116 00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:14,280 Speaker 1: in prior generations. Yeah. I think that starts with Gen X, 117 00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:17,520 Speaker 1: which is a generation that's may be characterized by its 118 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:20,800 Speaker 1: being targeted by marketers for the first time, and that 119 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:23,880 Speaker 1: was a marketing term as well. But if you look 120 00:07:23,880 --> 00:07:27,440 Speaker 1: at the baby boomers, right, that's not about consumers necessarily, 121 00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:30,040 Speaker 1: that's about their demographic effect. Right, if you look at 122 00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:34,480 Speaker 1: the greatest generation, you know some real great self branding there. Uh, 123 00:07:34,520 --> 00:07:38,080 Speaker 1: that's about fighting in a war and defeating fascism and 124 00:07:38,120 --> 00:07:40,200 Speaker 1: building a country or whatever. It has nothing to do 125 00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:44,640 Speaker 1: with selling them stuff. Whereas millennials was created by marketers. 126 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:48,360 Speaker 1: We've got marketers right now fighting desperately to name this 127 00:07:48,480 --> 00:07:52,520 Speaker 1: next cohort. Jean TWANGI is one of the the leading authorities, 128 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:55,120 Speaker 1: as they say, named her book Igen, which is also 129 00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:59,200 Speaker 1: the name of her consulting firm Igen, trying to sell 130 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:02,800 Speaker 1: things to Igen, or trying to sell companies on how 131 00:08:02,840 --> 00:08:05,640 Speaker 1: to sell things to Egen, or even just the name Igen. 132 00:08:06,160 --> 00:08:11,720 Speaker 1: So it's generational analysis is full of that kind of 133 00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:16,840 Speaker 1: marketing chicanery. Wait, I want to hear more about how 134 00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:21,840 Speaker 1: my compensation doesn't match my level of productivity. Yeah, Joe 135 00:08:21,880 --> 00:08:23,720 Speaker 1: wanted to get us off that. I wonder why, of 136 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:27,000 Speaker 1: course he did. He's not millennial, right, Um. Yeah, So 137 00:08:27,080 --> 00:08:30,720 Speaker 1: this is I think the most important thing about you know, 138 00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:35,760 Speaker 1: data point over the past three or four decades is 139 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:38,960 Speaker 1: this diversions that starts and really does about late seventies 140 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:44,120 Speaker 1: early eighties, where medium compensation starts to level off for workers, 141 00:08:44,160 --> 00:08:48,800 Speaker 1: and productivity keeps increases, and we've seen recently that productivity 142 00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:51,920 Speaker 1: itself start to level off as well. But that gap 143 00:08:52,040 --> 00:08:54,560 Speaker 1: is not closing, and there's no sign that it is 144 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:59,120 Speaker 1: going to close. And neo classical of economics doesn't really 145 00:08:59,120 --> 00:09:03,000 Speaker 1: have a term for that divergence, but Marxism does, and 146 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:05,959 Speaker 1: it's called the rate of exploitation, and that rate of 147 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:10,280 Speaker 1: exploitation is what characterizes, I think the millennial experience more 148 00:09:10,280 --> 00:09:13,320 Speaker 1: than anything else, certainly more than buying things. Let's talk 149 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:18,920 Speaker 1: about how that plays out the question of stagnant wages. 150 00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:23,319 Speaker 1: The chart showing the gap between productivity and wage growth, 151 00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:26,240 Speaker 1: I think there's a fair amount of understanding of that, 152 00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:29,720 Speaker 1: or at least facets of it. But the sort of 153 00:09:29,800 --> 00:09:34,760 Speaker 1: translation or maybe the transmission mechanism between this pace of 154 00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:39,360 Speaker 1: wage growth. Uh two, cultural values and cultural definitions and 155 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:42,600 Speaker 1: what defines this generation. What are the sort of second 156 00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:47,040 Speaker 1: order effects of that. That's a great question. So in 157 00:09:47,160 --> 00:09:50,480 Speaker 1: a society in which the stakes are higher, because that's 158 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:54,000 Speaker 1: really what we've seen is the difference between making it 159 00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:57,120 Speaker 1: and not making it is greater now than it used 160 00:09:57,120 --> 00:09:58,960 Speaker 1: to be. It used to be you could do okay 161 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:03,200 Speaker 1: and do okay and that's not the feeling that young 162 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:06,160 Speaker 1: people have growing up in America anymore. Um and not 163 00:10:06,280 --> 00:10:10,360 Speaker 1: not that everyone always did, but there is an increasing 164 00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:14,400 Speaker 1: feeling that if you don't make it, life is not 165 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:16,959 Speaker 1: going to be easy. Life is going to be hard, 166 00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:22,440 Speaker 1: and so to make it requires more work, younger, earlier, 167 00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:26,400 Speaker 1: higher stakes, younger earlier than it has in past generations. 168 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:27,960 Speaker 1: And so when we talked about when I went into 169 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:31,440 Speaker 1: this project, I felt very critical about sort of the 170 00:10:31,480 --> 00:10:36,440 Speaker 1: helicopter parents archetype. But as I did more research, I 171 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:39,720 Speaker 1: found out that they're responding to real, actual situations that 172 00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:42,400 Speaker 1: the risk of their children having a much harder life 173 00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:46,560 Speaker 1: is higher. And so when parents are working harder and 174 00:10:46,640 --> 00:10:49,959 Speaker 1: most of these parents are not you know, rich, because 175 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:52,880 Speaker 1: most people aren't rich. These are mostly working class parents 176 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:56,480 Speaker 1: who are taking on extra work to try and make 177 00:10:56,520 --> 00:10:58,960 Speaker 1: sure their kid has the best shot they have in 178 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:01,920 Speaker 1: a world where if they don't make it they could 179 00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:05,040 Speaker 1: really suffer. And so I developed a lot of sympathy 180 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:07,880 Speaker 1: for that during the course of the project. It sounds 181 00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:11,160 Speaker 1: like there's a certain winner take all on this about 182 00:11:11,280 --> 00:11:15,280 Speaker 1: how millennials see the economy, or millennial parents as you 183 00:11:15,400 --> 00:11:18,080 Speaker 1: put it, in which you can make it and do 184 00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:22,200 Speaker 1: phenomenally well. And there are obviously people who have, but 185 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:24,800 Speaker 1: as you say, it's not as easy to just do 186 00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:30,600 Speaker 1: okay and do okay. So the possible paths, the successful paths, 187 00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:34,840 Speaker 1: are perhaps fewer and maybe greater, and then there's just 188 00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:37,400 Speaker 1: a lot of bad paths. Yeah, and that competition is 189 00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:41,920 Speaker 1: very useful for employers and not useful at all for employees. 190 00:11:42,679 --> 00:11:44,880 Speaker 1: Kevin Russ for The New York Times is a great 191 00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:48,800 Speaker 1: book called Young Money where he's talking to young stockbrokers, 192 00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:51,559 Speaker 1: you know, Goldman analysts, right out of college. And these 193 00:11:51,600 --> 00:11:54,280 Speaker 1: are the people who have never lost at anything in 194 00:11:54,280 --> 00:11:57,120 Speaker 1: their whole lives. And they're recruiting, you know, only out 195 00:11:57,120 --> 00:12:00,120 Speaker 1: of Ivy League schools. And they take these kids who 196 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:01,760 Speaker 1: have never lost any things in their lives and they 197 00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:04,200 Speaker 1: just pit them against each other. And they don't have 198 00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:06,640 Speaker 1: to know anything about finance or whatever. It's just about 199 00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:12,080 Speaker 1: this competition and winning and losing. Because employers harnessed profit 200 00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:16,040 Speaker 1: from that, that is an engine of productivity for them, 201 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:18,880 Speaker 1: whereas for us not so much. So they encourage that 202 00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:22,120 Speaker 1: kind of competitive behavior just to play devil's advocate for 203 00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:24,880 Speaker 1: a second, because as a millennial, this is often the 204 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:28,480 Speaker 1: response that I hear from people when this type of 205 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:34,320 Speaker 1: conversation crops up, it's that our definition of making it 206 00:12:34,679 --> 00:12:37,680 Speaker 1: has shifted. So yes, there's a lot of urgency to 207 00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:41,080 Speaker 1: make it in the workforce because otherwise life will be bad. 208 00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:45,200 Speaker 1: But the critics of millennials say that our expectations of 209 00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:49,880 Speaker 1: what making it actually looks like have grown exponentially and 210 00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:53,080 Speaker 1: in some cases unrealistically. So making it to us is, 211 00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:55,880 Speaker 1: you know, traveling all the time and posting photos on 212 00:12:55,920 --> 00:12:59,080 Speaker 1: Instagram and affording a really nice apartment and a big 213 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:01,440 Speaker 1: house that we can show off to our friends and families, 214 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:05,720 Speaker 1: and yes, eating avocados all the time as well. What 215 00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:08,280 Speaker 1: do you say to those people? I think they're they're 216 00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:12,240 Speaker 1: somewhat misinformed, and they might be misinformed by young people 217 00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:14,880 Speaker 1: in their own lives who are working hard to reassure 218 00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:17,439 Speaker 1: them that they're okay. And I hear this from young 219 00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:19,720 Speaker 1: people all the time that a lot of their like 220 00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:24,199 Speaker 1: curating of their digital lives and making themselves look good 221 00:13:24,559 --> 00:13:26,800 Speaker 1: is not just for their friends to make their friends 222 00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:30,840 Speaker 1: think they're doing well, but for their parents and older 223 00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:32,840 Speaker 1: people to make them think that, like, you know, their 224 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:37,000 Speaker 1: life is going okay. I think in reality, our expectations 225 00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:39,920 Speaker 1: are standards. And I I've actually just been reporting on 226 00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:43,800 Speaker 1: this about in my line of work, freelance writing, where 227 00:13:43,840 --> 00:13:47,120 Speaker 1: the nominal pay has decreased, just straight up gone down, 228 00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:51,280 Speaker 1: and you can see this across industries, and the jobs 229 00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:55,360 Speaker 1: we have now are worse, and that's not particularly controversial 230 00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:58,240 Speaker 1: if you look at the numbers. I would like to 231 00:13:58,679 --> 00:14:03,800 Speaker 1: address the idea of expectations or entitlement to life getting easier, 232 00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:08,040 Speaker 1: because that's a criticism we hear about young people. Millennial 233 00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:09,480 Speaker 1: was a lot, but it was also supposed to be 234 00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:12,560 Speaker 1: the premise of capitalism, right like a hundred years ago. 235 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:15,800 Speaker 1: Kane said, in about a hundred years, we should solve 236 00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:19,840 Speaker 1: this whole economic problem thing, and then we can spend 237 00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:23,000 Speaker 1: all our days doing art and being creative and eating 238 00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:25,920 Speaker 1: great food and you know, taking pictures of avocado tift. 239 00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:28,760 Speaker 1: That was supposed to be the deal. We haven't seen 240 00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:31,880 Speaker 1: that at all. We haven't seen any even movement in 241 00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:35,760 Speaker 1: that direction where the proceeds of this mode of production 242 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:41,160 Speaker 1: become more shared and our state of living increases. So 243 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:43,720 Speaker 1: I think people should feel entitled to a better life. 244 00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:46,080 Speaker 1: I got a question and one of the talks I 245 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:49,120 Speaker 1: was giving about the book where a college student asked me, 246 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:52,360 Speaker 1: if housing prices are always going to go up, then 247 00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:55,800 Speaker 1: when is life's supposed to get easier? And that's a 248 00:14:55,840 --> 00:14:58,880 Speaker 1: totally valid question that I think, you know, economists need 249 00:14:58,920 --> 00:15:01,960 Speaker 1: to be answering if things are supposed to get more 250 00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:06,240 Speaker 1: expensive continually forever, when does life get easier for people 251 00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:10,200 Speaker 1: on this planet. One of the areas that I don't 252 00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:15,400 Speaker 1: think is particularly controversial in terms of the way millennials 253 00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:18,600 Speaker 1: think about the world and think about sort of state 254 00:15:18,640 --> 00:15:21,000 Speaker 1: of things is the lack of trust. And so we 255 00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:25,760 Speaker 1: hear a lot about millennials don't trust politicians, they don't 256 00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:28,880 Speaker 1: trust the stock market, they don't trust their employers, that 257 00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:33,120 Speaker 1: all of these institutions have to some extent failed them, 258 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:36,640 Speaker 1: and whether that's true or not, that seems to be 259 00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:39,360 Speaker 1: a real thing. I'm curious what your take is on 260 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:42,880 Speaker 1: this sort of trust collapse idea. And it's not just institutions, 261 00:15:42,920 --> 00:15:46,040 Speaker 1: it's also other people. And that's one of the biggest, 262 00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:51,400 Speaker 1: most qualitative gaps that I think defines the generational cohort 263 00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:54,880 Speaker 1: if you look at compared to recent cohorts, is social trust. 264 00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:58,080 Speaker 1: It's the idea that most people can be trusted to 265 00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:01,360 Speaker 1: be honest, which was not huge for Gen X either, 266 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:05,400 Speaker 1: But we're I think ten points lower down to I 267 00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:08,960 Speaker 1: think nineteen or something. So four out of five millennials 268 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:12,200 Speaker 1: don't think most people can be trusted. And that again 269 00:16:12,280 --> 00:16:16,160 Speaker 1: goes back to that higher stakes economy where if you're 270 00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:19,280 Speaker 1: constantly competing with other people, of course you're not going 271 00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:21,120 Speaker 1: to trust them. You'd be an idiot to trust them. 272 00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:24,760 Speaker 1: They don't trust you either because they're in competition with you. Fundamentally, 273 00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:28,200 Speaker 1: that is their relation to you as another person, and 274 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:29,880 Speaker 1: that didn't used to be the case. I don't think, 275 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:34,400 Speaker 1: especially for younger people. When we're learning concepts of social trust, 276 00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:38,280 Speaker 1: the level of competition between young people was just lower, 277 00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:44,440 Speaker 1: so I we shouldn't be surprised. So how much of 278 00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:50,120 Speaker 1: the blame for the current situation, this intense competition, low compensation, 279 00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:53,160 Speaker 1: for the productivity that you're actually giving to your employer. 280 00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:56,120 Speaker 1: How much of that can you weigh at the feet 281 00:16:56,440 --> 00:17:01,280 Speaker 1: of uh, let's say the older generation. I don't think 282 00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:05,560 Speaker 1: about that quite in generational terms. You can, there's a 283 00:17:05,600 --> 00:17:09,800 Speaker 1: way to think about it if you're using generational conflict 284 00:17:09,880 --> 00:17:13,800 Speaker 1: is your main frame, but that's not really how I 285 00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:17,040 Speaker 1: look at it, I would blame the ownership class of 286 00:17:17,080 --> 00:17:20,080 Speaker 1: that generational cohort in particular. And I think if you 287 00:17:20,119 --> 00:17:22,720 Speaker 1: look at Bruce Gibney's book, and he's the most he 288 00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:26,200 Speaker 1: wrote a book called Generation of Sociopaths that is about 289 00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:29,000 Speaker 1: the Boomers, that is straight up that argument, just like 290 00:17:29,080 --> 00:17:31,720 Speaker 1: the Boomers did this to us, uh, And I think 291 00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:34,880 Speaker 1: he's a gen X guy. At the beginning, he excludes 292 00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:40,600 Speaker 1: non white and non American born Boomers just from the jump, 293 00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:44,000 Speaker 1: and you know it, that doesn't make for as good 294 00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:46,600 Speaker 1: of a title, but you have to do that in 295 00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:48,920 Speaker 1: order for the analysis to make sense. So the idea 296 00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:52,159 Speaker 1: of blaming boomers itself is I think kind of faulty. 297 00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:56,600 Speaker 1: It doesn't stand up. Speaking of gen X. I like 298 00:17:56,640 --> 00:17:58,480 Speaker 1: a lot of gen X people are pretty upset these 299 00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:01,080 Speaker 1: days too, Right. Isn't there a sort of theme that 300 00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:04,399 Speaker 1: the gen xers feel no one ever talks about them 301 00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:08,680 Speaker 1: that so much interest is on millennials and the boomers 302 00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:11,520 Speaker 1: and then gen X which sort of felt, maybe in 303 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:13,520 Speaker 1: the late nineties, like their lives were all gonna be 304 00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:16,080 Speaker 1: awesome and everyone was gonna get rich, and they just 305 00:18:16,119 --> 00:18:19,359 Speaker 1: had this very brief moment and they've forgotten about. Yeah, 306 00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:22,840 Speaker 1: the thing about generational analysis is not everyone is born 307 00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:26,640 Speaker 1: at an equally important time, and that's that's nothing personal 308 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:29,840 Speaker 1: to to gen X, but and it also means no 309 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:32,199 Speaker 1: one is going to hold them ultimately responsible for the 310 00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:34,200 Speaker 1: state of the world and the way that I think 311 00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:37,680 Speaker 1: millennials will be that's yeah, so you could. I would 312 00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:39,639 Speaker 1: take that deal if I were you guys, to be honest, 313 00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:41,720 Speaker 1: for what it's worth. I think I'm also not gen 314 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:44,520 Speaker 1: X because I was born in and I always so. 315 00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:47,919 Speaker 1: I kind of like you're given the generation between millennials 316 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:50,800 Speaker 1: and gen X well, and that gets too. I think 317 00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:54,240 Speaker 1: an important point about the way I'm doing generational analysis, 318 00:18:54,280 --> 00:18:56,240 Speaker 1: which is that it isn't about a year cut off. 319 00:18:56,280 --> 00:18:59,680 Speaker 1: It's about the kind of life you have, right, Jared 320 00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:03,520 Speaker 1: cushed there's a millennial, but he doesn't live that way. 321 00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:08,600 Speaker 1: That's not that question. I'm curious about um to defining 322 00:19:09,119 --> 00:19:13,679 Speaker 1: things if I guess events in the last fifteen or 323 00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:17,720 Speaker 1: twenty years, and that is the Iraq War and also 324 00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:22,479 Speaker 1: the Great Financial Crisis, and the extent to which those 325 00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:27,920 Speaker 1: have informed millennials view of the world. There were war 326 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:30,199 Speaker 1: is an interesting one because it definitely for a lot 327 00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:34,640 Speaker 1: of us myself included was our first introduction to political participation. 328 00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:39,360 Speaker 1: UM I started protesting the Iraq War before it's protested 329 00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:42,880 Speaker 1: the war in Afghanistan. But um at the same time, 330 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:47,280 Speaker 1: the impacts of that constant state of war have been 331 00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:51,119 Speaker 1: cordoned off from most of society in a way that 332 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:55,919 Speaker 1: we've never really seen with war. And so a large 333 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:59,520 Speaker 1: effort for the Iraq War was to insulate the population 334 00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:02,720 Speaker 1: from its effects or even the knowledge that it was ongoing. 335 00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:07,560 Speaker 1: And so you don't see millennials influenced by the Iraq 336 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:13,080 Speaker 1: War at the same um rate volume that you know 337 00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:18,240 Speaker 1: Vietnam and impacted that generation. At the same time, we've 338 00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:20,760 Speaker 1: been at war that our entire lives and it's the 339 00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:24,960 Speaker 1: war that's been fought by young people. UM, so there 340 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:27,280 Speaker 1: are a lot of veterans out there. At the same time, 341 00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:30,400 Speaker 1: it's a not a infantry intensive war in the same 342 00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:33,520 Speaker 1: way that we've had past wars. So the impact of 343 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:37,159 Speaker 1: the Iraq War has been been very complicated. The financial crisis, 344 00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:40,080 Speaker 1: I think is probably a little bit more direct and 345 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:42,880 Speaker 1: a little bit more visible, and the bailouts I think 346 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:45,800 Speaker 1: is also part of the financial crisis. As part of 347 00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:50,680 Speaker 1: that whole sequence is understanding that firms would lie and 348 00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:52,800 Speaker 1: cheat and steal and get away with it, and that 349 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:56,120 Speaker 1: this was the condition of our politics and our economy, 350 00:20:56,160 --> 00:21:00,760 Speaker 1: and that they had the rest of us hostage, and 351 00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:03,159 Speaker 1: that they could take the whole thing any day and 352 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:05,760 Speaker 1: we had to, you know, appease the bondholders or else 353 00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:08,479 Speaker 1: we were all going to die, and that this was 354 00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:13,760 Speaker 1: the condition of our political existence. That's disheartening. So if 355 00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:18,520 Speaker 1: millennials are constructs of capitalism, and mostly constructs of the 356 00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:23,720 Speaker 1: downsides of capitalism, it sounds like what can possibly be 357 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:28,720 Speaker 1: done to improve the situation for our cohort of people? 358 00:21:29,560 --> 00:21:34,320 Speaker 1: That's the hundred million dollar question, I guess. Thankfully, we 359 00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:37,479 Speaker 1: we have one example recently, what was the West Virginia 360 00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:42,680 Speaker 1: treat teacher strike, um and labor strike. Labor actions which 361 00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:45,720 Speaker 1: a point I'm making the book, have been basically banned 362 00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:51,480 Speaker 1: since we over the course of millennial development, strikes have 363 00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:55,119 Speaker 1: been marginalized as a practice, so much so that everyone 364 00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:57,240 Speaker 1: sort of forgot that even that they were illegal, I 365 00:21:57,320 --> 00:22:01,359 Speaker 1: feel like, and that they could repress them. And so 366 00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:05,399 Speaker 1: the West Virginia teacher strike, which was illegal, was also 367 00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:11,040 Speaker 1: successful and victorious and earned them a wage increase, and 368 00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:13,440 Speaker 1: I think a lot of people saw that, especially teachers 369 00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:15,480 Speaker 1: and around the country. We're going to see the impact 370 00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:21,719 Speaker 1: of that so um lawbreaking, mostly lawbreaking labor action. If 371 00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:23,680 Speaker 1: it's not breaking laws, it's probably not going to be 372 00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:27,080 Speaker 1: very useful. I think at this point, I'm glad you 373 00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:30,360 Speaker 1: brought that up, because I'm curious, you know, like you know, 374 00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:33,120 Speaker 1: in the world that I kind of inhabit New York 375 00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:36,800 Speaker 1: City media. I used to work for a digital or 376 00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:40,840 Speaker 1: strictly digital media company. We've seen a number of unionizations 377 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:45,960 Speaker 1: of newsrooms recently. I think, uh, places like Fox Media 378 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:49,920 Speaker 1: and Vice Media have recently unionized. Is this a phenomenon 379 00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:56,320 Speaker 1: that is okay, this is liberal leftist journalists in New 380 00:22:56,359 --> 00:22:59,600 Speaker 1: York City are sort of getting into the idea of 381 00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:03,439 Speaker 1: lay for action. Or is this a phenomenon that is 382 00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:06,240 Speaker 1: taking root in a in your view in a broader way, 383 00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:08,840 Speaker 1: because I have a hard time telling what's just the 384 00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:10,800 Speaker 1: bubble of the people I follow on Twitter or my 385 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:15,640 Speaker 1: colleagues versus the larger cohort, and this is something that's 386 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:17,960 Speaker 1: started to change. I think since I wrote the book, 387 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:20,920 Speaker 1: actually that the numbers when I was writing the book 388 00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:24,440 Speaker 1: is that millennials were less likely to join unions even 389 00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:29,560 Speaker 1: when they were available in their workplace, those numbers might 390 00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:32,920 Speaker 1: be different now. I do think we've seen maybe an 391 00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:35,919 Speaker 1: excess of attention on the media space because it's the 392 00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:39,280 Speaker 1: media space. We we do control the media, the media 393 00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:42,639 Speaker 1: controls the media. But I do think this West Virginia 394 00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:44,720 Speaker 1: teacher strike is going to have a big impact because 395 00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:48,800 Speaker 1: it's been so off the table for so long. Um 396 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:51,960 Speaker 1: part of the problem is that that just labor organizations 397 00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:56,320 Speaker 1: have been weakened, the leadership is not necessarily acting in 398 00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:58,080 Speaker 1: the best interests in the rank and file, which again, 399 00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:01,000 Speaker 1: this West Virginia teacher strike as a wildcat strike at 400 00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:03,040 Speaker 1: a certain point where the leadership was ready to go 401 00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:06,159 Speaker 1: back in and the rank and file stayed out. And 402 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:09,600 Speaker 1: so I think more than just the question of labor action, 403 00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:12,439 Speaker 1: it's the the type of labor action, the kind of 404 00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:14,560 Speaker 1: labor action that we're going to see that's led by 405 00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:19,240 Speaker 1: you know, Facebook memes rather than union bureaucrats, and that 406 00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:22,720 Speaker 1: seems more effective at this moment. I for one, can't 407 00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:25,840 Speaker 1: wait for the millennial revolution. I do wonder how much 408 00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:30,000 Speaker 1: of the reluctance to join unions is part of that 409 00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:34,199 Speaker 1: competitive culture that has essentially been bred into millennials in 410 00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:36,920 Speaker 1: the workplace. You know, you talked about that winner takes 411 00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:39,920 Speaker 1: all environment. It's kind of hard to be the one 412 00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:42,639 Speaker 1: joining a union if you think that you also have 413 00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:45,359 Speaker 1: to set yourself apart from the rest of the group 414 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:48,359 Speaker 1: and basically do whatever your employer wants from you in 415 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:51,720 Speaker 1: order to get ahead in life. I think that's absolutely true, 416 00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:56,119 Speaker 1: that crucial point. We saw this with the the Gawker union. Actually, 417 00:24:56,200 --> 00:25:00,000 Speaker 1: back when there was a a Gawker union, they negotiate 418 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:03,439 Speaker 1: did an at will higher contract, which is insane. If 419 00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:07,240 Speaker 1: any union person looked at that contract, they, you know, 420 00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:10,240 Speaker 1: slap that Gawker negotiating team right in the face because 421 00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:15,080 Speaker 1: that terrible contract. But it was motivated by this idea 422 00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:17,200 Speaker 1: that I think had been bred into all of them 423 00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:19,439 Speaker 1: of competition. You know, we don't want to protect the 424 00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:22,439 Speaker 1: jobs of people who aren't pulling their weight. All right, 425 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:24,760 Speaker 1: I'm going to ask you a question that is perhaps 426 00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:30,240 Speaker 1: anathema to you, but let's hear it. No, but let's 427 00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:33,600 Speaker 1: let's say, and maybe this has already happened, because people 428 00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:37,000 Speaker 1: are smart, this would have already happened. But you know, 429 00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:42,200 Speaker 1: someone at PEPSI or Procter and Gamble or something came 430 00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:47,439 Speaker 1: across your book kids these days about millennials, and they're like, oh, 431 00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:50,639 Speaker 1: we should get that guy Malcolm Harrison to teach us 432 00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:54,040 Speaker 1: about millennials and how we're all taking this very naive 433 00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:56,680 Speaker 1: view of them. That's and how we should be thinking 434 00:25:56,680 --> 00:25:59,720 Speaker 1: about them more than just a bunch of checkboxes of 435 00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:04,080 Speaker 1: consumption patterns. We really need to learn more. A has 436 00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:06,320 Speaker 1: that happened and be you know they bring you in 437 00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:09,840 Speaker 1: to give a talk, would you tell them? So? The 438 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:13,719 Speaker 1: only one where that happened was for the twenty one 439 00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:19,240 Speaker 1: century Fox off site before they sold the whole company. Basically, 440 00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:21,760 Speaker 1: they asked if I wanted to come talk about young 441 00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:24,240 Speaker 1: people at the twenty one century Fox off site in 442 00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:27,560 Speaker 1: like Palm Beach. So I got some email about that 443 00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:31,280 Speaker 1: and I wrote back, you know, being a good Marxist, 444 00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:34,480 Speaker 1: how much? And at that point I think they sold 445 00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:37,960 Speaker 1: the company. So that was the closest I've I've come 446 00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:40,040 Speaker 1: to corporate consulting. I think I would have done that 447 00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:42,240 Speaker 1: just to go to Paul Meach, to hang out with 448 00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:46,320 Speaker 1: Lachlan Murphy Murdoch and see what the al Right, so 449 00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:48,720 Speaker 1: what let's say, let's say they had hit your bed 450 00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:51,400 Speaker 1: and like, yeah, we you know, come down and talk 451 00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:53,520 Speaker 1: to us. And I love I just love that vision, 452 00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:55,960 Speaker 1: by the way, if you down there. But let's say 453 00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:58,040 Speaker 1: they had, you know, they had come back with an 454 00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:00,520 Speaker 1: adequate number for you, and they're like, okay, so what 455 00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:03,000 Speaker 1: would you What would you tell them, assuming you were 456 00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:05,080 Speaker 1: trying to saboteger to them roll them? Sure? If I 457 00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:09,520 Speaker 1: wanted to talk to Laclamurphy, Well, it's hard because the 458 00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:11,239 Speaker 1: honest things I have to say to them are not 459 00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:14,040 Speaker 1: ones they'd want to hear. Right, I'd say, your father 460 00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:19,600 Speaker 1: dies happy and you will die in the street surrounded 461 00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:23,240 Speaker 1: by lots of angry people. And I think they are 462 00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:25,960 Speaker 1: aware of that possibility right now. Right was the head 463 00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:28,280 Speaker 1: of Cardier the other day was like, I you know, 464 00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:31,320 Speaker 1: the idea of uprising keeps me up all night every night, 465 00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:33,879 Speaker 1: and I think partly that's what they want to hear. Right. 466 00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:38,240 Speaker 1: They get a some sense of excitement over knowing their 467 00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:43,200 Speaker 1: position is somewhat precarious, but it's it's true. I mean, 468 00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:47,080 Speaker 1: I don't have anything that I think they would find useful. 469 00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:50,160 Speaker 1: They know what their strategy is in terms of labor exploitation. 470 00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:52,240 Speaker 1: Maybe they can clarify it by reading the book if 471 00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:55,240 Speaker 1: they want, but I'm not inclined to give them any 472 00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:57,280 Speaker 1: advice about it. I'm not like Jean Twang, where I'm 473 00:27:57,280 --> 00:27:59,760 Speaker 1: going to go talk to the American Petroleum Institute about 474 00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:03,880 Speaker 1: how you can sell cars to millennials, and no one 475 00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:06,360 Speaker 1: has reached out to me to do something like that. 476 00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:09,320 Speaker 1: I think we should call this episode. Do you hear 477 00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:13,679 Speaker 1: the millennials sing that should be it? Malcolm? How much 478 00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:15,639 Speaker 1: do you think the pressures that we're talking about that 479 00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:19,160 Speaker 1: are on millennials? How much do those get eased as 480 00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:23,920 Speaker 1: the older generation leaves the workforce? And dare I say 481 00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:28,399 Speaker 1: it actually dies off and maybe leave some money to 482 00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:31,560 Speaker 1: their children, um which we can all inherit, and also 483 00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:35,600 Speaker 1: relinquishes their voting power and their influence in US politics. 484 00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:38,840 Speaker 1: Is that the point where things start getting better? No? 485 00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:42,200 Speaker 1: I don't think so, because that one, I have no 486 00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:44,520 Speaker 1: idea when that's going to happen, and they sure have 487 00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:48,200 Speaker 1: invested a bunch of time and money into prolonging it 488 00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:52,120 Speaker 1: as far as possible. It's like Western civilization, right, It's 489 00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:56,280 Speaker 1: like a nice idea boomers retiring, but also that they've 490 00:28:56,360 --> 00:29:01,200 Speaker 1: set up the next millennial leadership cohort is not any 491 00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:05,360 Speaker 1: better than the boomer leadership cohort. Again, people like Jared Pushner. 492 00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:07,880 Speaker 1: All Right, these these folks are already in place, and 493 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:11,240 Speaker 1: they are responsible to an even smaller number of people 494 00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:15,440 Speaker 1: than their fathers were. So I'm not looking forward to 495 00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:19,800 Speaker 1: our millennial over here, Malcolm Harris. The book is Kids 496 00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:22,800 Speaker 1: These Days, Human Capital and the Making of Millennials. Thank 497 00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:24,720 Speaker 1: you very much for joining. Thanks so much for having 498 00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:38,480 Speaker 1: to Tracy. I know you like that episode. I definitely did. 499 00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:41,800 Speaker 1: It was so good. I feel empowered as a millennial, 500 00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:43,760 Speaker 1: and you know, I'm going to go out and start 501 00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:47,400 Speaker 1: the revolution. And I know that Malcolm, as he said 502 00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:51,120 Speaker 1: multiple times, he doesn't really think that the straight up 503 00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:55,640 Speaker 1: generational warfare lens is exactly the correct one, But I 504 00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:59,920 Speaker 1: do know that nothing gets you more excited about anything 505 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:02,680 Speaker 1: ing that sort of any sort of vague whiff of 506 00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:05,680 Speaker 1: generational warfare, because it has been a constant theme of 507 00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:08,320 Speaker 1: your writing. Well, come on, I think there's more than 508 00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:10,640 Speaker 1: a vague wif to be fair, but I also think 509 00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:12,760 Speaker 1: if you pin it just on the baby boomers, of 510 00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:16,520 Speaker 1: course that is oversimplifying things, but just to broaden it 511 00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:20,760 Speaker 1: out and not be a completely self centered millennial and 512 00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:24,719 Speaker 1: play to that stereotype. I do think there's an important 513 00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:28,040 Speaker 1: aspect to this conversation, and a lot of it you 514 00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:31,520 Speaker 1: can apply to the broader workforce. Right, we talk in 515 00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:35,640 Speaker 1: markets and economics all the time about that elusive wage growth, 516 00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:38,080 Speaker 1: why hasn't it happened? And a lot of what we've 517 00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:41,880 Speaker 1: been discussing about companies sort of holding all the cards 518 00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:46,440 Speaker 1: in the battle between corporations, capital owners, and the labor 519 00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:49,480 Speaker 1: force when it comes to millennials, you can apply that 520 00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:54,440 Speaker 1: to a much much broader section of the workforce. I think, yeah, absolutely, 521 00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:56,640 Speaker 1: and I think there's there's a lot of themes to 522 00:30:56,880 --> 00:31:02,160 Speaker 1: unpack here, including and increasingly less controversial viewpoint that the 523 00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:07,520 Speaker 1: concentration of corporate power among a smaller and smaller number 524 00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:11,840 Speaker 1: of winner take all companies has put downward pressure on wages. 525 00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:14,760 Speaker 1: I think this lens is absolutely, as you say, very 526 00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:18,200 Speaker 1: useful for a much broader conversation as well. Yeah, and 527 00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:20,280 Speaker 1: I like the part where Malcolm said that you weren't 528 00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:23,160 Speaker 1: born in an important time. I know I've come to 529 00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:25,160 Speaker 1: realize that and I just accept it now that it 530 00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:27,719 Speaker 1: makes me a little bit sad. The one other thing 531 00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:30,320 Speaker 1: I really liked is the idea of, you know, when 532 00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:34,240 Speaker 1: we're talking about the strikes, and the idea of maybe 533 00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:36,800 Speaker 1: the sort of labor action in the future will be 534 00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:40,959 Speaker 1: people in a Facebook page sharing memes about labor action 535 00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:46,040 Speaker 1: rather than some sort of centralized union leadership. And it's 536 00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:51,040 Speaker 1: a good reminder that the next wave of things may 537 00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:53,080 Speaker 1: not look like the old things. And so we might 538 00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:55,520 Speaker 1: have this view like, Okay, we're watching for the re 539 00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:59,959 Speaker 1: emergence of a more powerful labor movement, and we key 540 00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:02,880 Speaker 1: looking at union membership or something like that. But it 541 00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:06,880 Speaker 1: could just be ideas taking ideas taking root, or some 542 00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:10,720 Speaker 1: sort of more horizontal coordination. Sort of a good idea 543 00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:14,040 Speaker 1: to remain open to how these things could look different. 544 00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:18,040 Speaker 1: It could be something as simple as millennial employees talking 545 00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:20,840 Speaker 1: to each other about what their actual salaries are and 546 00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:24,280 Speaker 1: then going to their bosses and figuring out how to 547 00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:28,400 Speaker 1: make those higher. Absolutely, I'm a little bit worried that 548 00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:31,800 Speaker 1: maybe the revolution is going to play out on Instagram. Um, 549 00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:35,959 Speaker 1: but we'll we'll find out, We'll say, alright. This has 550 00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:39,560 Speaker 1: been another edition of the Odd Thoughts podcast. I'm Tracy Alloway. 551 00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:42,640 Speaker 1: You can follow me on Twitter at Tracy Alloway and 552 00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:46,000 Speaker 1: I'm Joe Wisenthal. You can follow me on Twitter at 553 00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:49,280 Speaker 1: The Stalwart, and you can follow Malcolm on Twitter at 554 00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:53,520 Speaker 1: Big Mean Internet. And you should follow our producer Topur 555 00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:56,760 Speaker 1: Foreheads on Twitter at forehead t, as well as the 556 00:32:56,800 --> 00:33:00,760 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Head of podcast, Brincesica Levy at Print. Just good today, 557 00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:01,880 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.