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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. Hello, welcome back to the show.

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Speaker 1: My name is Matt, my name is Noel. They called

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Speaker 1: me Ben. We're joined as always with our super producer,

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Speaker 1: Paul Mission Control decades. Most importantly, you are you, You

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Speaker 1: are here, and that makes this stuff they don't want

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Speaker 1: you to know. Now. We've been starting off and on

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Speaker 1: with a Twitter roll call of sorts that we had

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Speaker 1: talked about, just to keep everybody in touch as close

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Speaker 1: as we can be during these our days of quarantine.

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Speaker 1: Wanted to shout out in particular, Uh, Snake Pliskin, who

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Speaker 1: just heard our episode on the Smiley Face Killer theory. Snake,

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Speaker 1: you said, hey, conspiracy stuff, I just listened to your

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Speaker 1: Smiley Face Killers episode. In the last two months, male

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Speaker 1: subjects were pulled from the Milwaukee River. Uh and someone else,

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Speaker 1: Lindsay at Backstreet on Twitter says, one of the guys,

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Speaker 1: luke h was in my graduating class in high school.

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Speaker 1: I remember he went missing. It was surreal seeing his

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Speaker 1: mom on TV. Related to the smiley face killers. So

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Speaker 1: it's interesting because you know, um, as we said in

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Speaker 1: our episode, the vast majority of law enforcement believes there's

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Speaker 1: nothing to the theory, but the two men who have

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Speaker 1: been spearheading the investigation themselves former law enforcement, are still

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Speaker 1: convinced there's something nefarious of foot. What did you guys

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Speaker 1: think about that when we when we looked into that episode.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's nice to have two people who have

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Speaker 1: decided to continue looking into it, especially for you know,

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Speaker 1: the individuals, uh like, the families of the victims that

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Speaker 1: are involved, just to have someone that it feels like

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Speaker 1: they're in your corner. Um. But you know, it did

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Speaker 1: seem like a bit of a stretch where we did

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Speaker 1: the episode. That doesn't mean it's you know, not real.

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Speaker 1: It just means we don't have enough evidence at this

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Speaker 1: point to connect everything. Yeah, I agree, And it just

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Speaker 1: felt like, you know, the smiley faces such a ubiquitous,

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Speaker 1: very um kind of easy thing to spray paint on

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Speaker 1: a wall. The existence of that, you know, connected to

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Speaker 1: multiple cases of drowning, which is also an easy thing

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Speaker 1: to happen near a body of water, seemed like a

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Speaker 1: real kind of shot in the dark to me. Um,

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Speaker 1: and it seems like that is what the evidence bore

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Speaker 1: out that it that it did feel like a bit

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Speaker 1: of either a coincidence or just you know, somebody getting

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Speaker 1: a little overly obsessed and wanting to find an answer

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Speaker 1: where none existed. And that's certainly a thing that happens.

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Speaker 1: You know, well said, well said, And it sounds like

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Speaker 1: we're all on the same page with this one. Uh.

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Speaker 1: We have to add to that the enormous difficulty of

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Speaker 1: proving drowning by homicide. But with that being said, of

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Speaker 1: course we want to hear your arguments for or against it,

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Speaker 1: and we would, like everybody else listening, I want nothing

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Speaker 1: more than closure for the families who have who have

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Speaker 1: lost these children. Today, we're diving into something that fellow

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Speaker 1: long time listeners will be more than familiar with. Uh,

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Speaker 1: at least in principle. I mean, hot gosh, we're in

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Speaker 1: a new golden age of propaganda. It's often said, right

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Speaker 1: since before the election, or at least it looks like

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Speaker 1: a new age if you don't as long as you

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Speaker 1: don't dive too deeply. While we're saying we're in a

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Speaker 1: new age of propaganda, you know, it's it's interesting because

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Speaker 1: it makes for a slick headline, but that's not entirely true.

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Speaker 1: So here are the facts. If you've listened to the show,

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Speaker 1: you know that propaganda is nothing new. Propaganda is something

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Speaker 1: that's been around forever because we've always needed we as

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Speaker 1: in us, every human UH, those in power or those

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Speaker 1: wanting to acquire power have always needed a way to

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Speaker 1: convince others that their way is the right way. And

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Speaker 1: if for some reason you didn't check out our very

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Speaker 1: first episode of Stuff they Don't Want You to Know

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Speaker 1: in podcast form, you should do that now because it's

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Speaker 1: all about the life and story of Edward Burns, who

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Speaker 1: is popularly known lovingly known as the father of public

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Speaker 1: relations i e. Propaganda. Right yeah, and you can. You

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Speaker 1: can read his work for yourself. It is surprisingly transparent

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Speaker 1: because Edward Burns felt like he was doing a good thing.

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Speaker 1: He thought it was making the world a better place.

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Speaker 1: You can find this stuff for free online. I like

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Speaker 1: to recommend for anybody who hasn't read him before checking

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Speaker 1: out Crystallizing Public Opinion and of course his breakout banger,

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Speaker 1: the single in his uh if his work as an album,

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Speaker 1: the book simply titled Propaganda. UH. I would also say

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Speaker 1: he's he's a very clear and talented writer. And these

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Speaker 1: are easy reads, you know, it's not like slogging your

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Speaker 1: way through kirk Guard or something like that. Uh. And

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Speaker 1: you know he will he will be. He will be

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Speaker 1: not by no means the only uh, the only author

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Speaker 1: you find writing about propaganda or writing actual propaganda if

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Speaker 1: you look on the Internet these days, because it is

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Speaker 1: chock full of propaganda. As a matter of fact, propaganda

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Speaker 1: has become increasingly weaponized. It's a crown jewel in the

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Speaker 1: world of asymmetrical warfare. And have this in the notes,

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Speaker 1: but just just for anybody who's like heard the term

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Speaker 1: propaganda or wondering what it means. Propagandas information, it's not

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Speaker 1: always untrue, but propaganda is information with an agenda. It's biased,

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Speaker 1: it can be misleading, and it's meant to make you feel,

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Speaker 1: as the reader or the viewer, the audience member, that

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Speaker 1: what you're being told is leading you inevitably to an

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Speaker 1: obvious conclusion. But that conclusion is not always the truth.

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Speaker 1: It's it's very tricky. Uh. I mean, yeah, yeah, it exists.

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Speaker 1: You know, we're talking about it existing now in modern

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Speaker 1: days and the Internet being chocked full of it. You could.

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Speaker 1: You can slightly put a twist on anything that gets

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Speaker 1: released from a public relations perspective, whether it's the messaging

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Speaker 1: within a let's say a company and the way it

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Speaker 1: portrays itself in advertising, or especially a candidate and the

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Speaker 1: way they are portrayed within within an election year. Well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean the term is spin right. Spin is literally

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Speaker 1: taking a truth and twist it. That is what spinning

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Speaker 1: something is. It is a way of of changing the

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Speaker 1: way a thing is perceived or quote unquote getting ahead

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Speaker 1: of it, which can basically mean controlling the narrative. It

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Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily mean that it's outright lying. In fact, it's

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Speaker 1: it's it's probably a bad idea to outright lie and

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Speaker 1: propaganda because you can you can call out a lie.

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Speaker 1: You can't call out a cleverly uh strategically placed partial

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Speaker 1: truth quite as easily, can't you? Right right? I think

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Speaker 1: I mentioned this in an earlier episode, but always makes

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Speaker 1: me think of that fantastic line from Emily Dickinson. Tell

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Speaker 1: the truth, but tell its slant, and you see more

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Speaker 1: and more of that. I want to arm everybody who's

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Speaker 1: been reading a lot of news, especially political news, with

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Speaker 1: a an easy tip to find stuff that maybe, if

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Speaker 1: not propaganda, uh, just opinion masquerading is fact. Uh. You

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Speaker 1: will notice this when you see by the verbs you

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Speaker 1: see in headlines, like if you ever read something where

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Speaker 1: it says like politician A slams country bees announcement of

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Speaker 1: blah blah blah, or they they slam or they blast

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Speaker 1: or they you know, excoreate whatever. All when they're putting

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Speaker 1: in those action verbs, that is the spin, that is

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Speaker 1: part of the narrative they're trying to make you agree with.

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Speaker 1: And and it's weird because typically here in the US,

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Speaker 1: before and after the advent of the internet, uh, when

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Speaker 1: we would hear about propaganda, it would be portrayed as

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Speaker 1: something that other countries do. Right. You might, for example,

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Speaker 1: remember hearing a news anchor saying something along the lines of,

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Speaker 1: look at all this crazy disinformation coming from Russia. RT

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Speaker 1: used to be known as the Russian Times or Russia

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Speaker 1: Times has a brand new crazy conspiracy theory, and they

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Speaker 1: might reference Russia's state level propaganda on everything from quote

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Speaker 1: unquote globalists, the five G and more. And you might

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Speaker 1: also if you're a fan of the Daily Show or

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Speaker 1: a fan of excellent work like last week tonight recall

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Speaker 1: the weird, over the top videos that countries like North

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Speaker 1: Korea or Turkmenistan release. Have you guys ever seen those? Oh? Yes,

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Speaker 1: I recall this very vividly calling out the United States

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Speaker 1: for its use of propaganda. But in a propaganda format

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Speaker 1: it was, It was fascinating and it was highly effective

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Speaker 1: because I remember watching it and myself personally feeling moved

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Speaker 1: in that I believed. I believed it to an extent, Uh,

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Speaker 1: if that makes sense. I believed that there was a

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Speaker 1: US campaign to wage propaganda against North Korea when I

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Speaker 1: was watching their tape in particular. And the problem is

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Speaker 1: it's kind of it was happening. It kind of is

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Speaker 1: happening at all times, but from all sides. As as

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Speaker 1: we said, this is this is uh the standard fodder

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Speaker 1: for asymmetrical means of warfare, right Why by a super

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Speaker 1: carrier when you can get the domestic population to turn

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Speaker 1: against its masters. We often see propaganda presented as a

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Speaker 1: tool in the dictator tool kit. You know, you can

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Speaker 1: use it to gaslight and suppress local populations, and you

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Speaker 1: can also use it to discredit any domestic opposition. But

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Speaker 1: if you think the US is somehow above this practice.

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Speaker 1: If you think the US is somehow immune to this practice,

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Speaker 1: you could not be anymore wrong. Sadly, what are we

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Speaker 1: talking about. We'll tell you after a word from our sponsor.

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Speaker 1: Here's where it gets crazy. Oh who do hold on?

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Speaker 1: Hold your horses, hold mine, hold the stable. You might

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Speaker 1: be saying domestic propaganda. Would the United States of America

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Speaker 1: really be allowed to gaslight its own citizens? No way.

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Speaker 1: There should be a law. There should be a law,

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Speaker 1: especially because we're talking about the United States government, the thing,

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Speaker 1: the entity that we all prop up every time we

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Speaker 1: pay our taxes, the thing that we make happen that

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Speaker 1: works for us ostensibly on paper. Yeah, and and like, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, private entities are are a different thing. Everybody

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Speaker 1: expects propaganda from private entities. We just call them advertisements.

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Speaker 1: When he's at least this amazing mixtape a while back,

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Speaker 1: that's definitely propaganda. Burger king once you to think that

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Speaker 1: McDonald's is garbage, that's propaganda too. Uh. But it's it's different,

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Speaker 1: you know, when, as you said, Matt, there are their

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Speaker 1: tax dollars involved, And there is actually a law. It's

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Speaker 1: called the US Information and Educational Exchange Acts. Usually it's

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Speaker 1: street name is the Smith Mount m U n D

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Speaker 1: T Act. This is the authorization, the legal authorization for

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Speaker 1: propaganda activities conducted by the Department of State here in

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Speaker 1: the US. Well I say here in the US. The

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Speaker 1: Department of State is based in this country. But Smith

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Speaker 1: Mount uh is is green lighting what could be euphemistically

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Speaker 1: called public diplomacy. I want to like walk this back

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Speaker 1: ever so slightly, like when you say public, So this

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Speaker 1: is governing public discourse in some way or like the

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Speaker 1: like like being is it trying to keep people honest?

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Speaker 1: Like what's the purpose? I don't I don't quite understand

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Speaker 1: if If it is meant for that, it doesn't seven

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Speaker 1: be doing a very good job, right right, So think

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Speaker 1: of things if um, you can listen to this, so

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Speaker 1: you can listen to this this now in the US,

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Speaker 1: but for a long time, uh, there were things like

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Speaker 1: v O A Voice of America. This is state sponsored

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Speaker 1: US content that specifically marketed to foreign audiences, you know,

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Speaker 1: like think of the Horn of Africa, think of East

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Speaker 1: or Southeast Asia, and it's it's meant to kind of

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Speaker 1: push the push Uncle Sam's narrative to to these foreign audiences.

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Speaker 1: And it uh. The the act itself, says uh or

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Speaker 1: said that this kind of stuff that we're piping out

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Speaker 1: two residents of other countries cannot be piped in here.

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Speaker 1: So that's why you can't turn on nine point one

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Speaker 1: or whatever your local NPR station is and hear them

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Speaker 1: talking about how uh dangerous the government actions of Myanmar

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Speaker 1: or Pakistan are. I see, Okay, So it's essentially like

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Speaker 1: giving permission for this kind of quote unquote. We'd never

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Speaker 1: all at propaganda. The propaganda is not even in the

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Speaker 1: thing that's sort of a dirty word, but it's essentially

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Speaker 1: allowing that legally within the framework of of our of

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Speaker 1: our government to to happen when it comes to outside countries.

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Speaker 1: But it's something that we would never do to our

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Speaker 1: own people knowingly or in terms of demonizing other countries. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: nail on the head. In short, the United States always

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Speaker 1: knew that domestic propaganda could have a delatorious or damaging

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Speaker 1: effect on the population. We moved to protect ourselves from

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Speaker 1: ourselves and and this, uh, this comes into play like,

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Speaker 1: after after all, the propaganda of World War One and

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Speaker 1: and things like that, when people are scrambling for the

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Speaker 1: ration cards and so on. The reasoning here was pretty patriotic.

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Speaker 1: In fact, Uh, there's one Senator Edward Zarinsky who explained it, um,

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Speaker 1: I think pretty pretty succinctly when he was working with

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Speaker 1: a Senator Jay William Fulbright to try to push this

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Speaker 1: act through Congress. And the purpose would be to distinguish

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Speaker 1: what the US is doing from uh, the way the

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Speaker 1: Soviets were conducting their propaganda, um, he said. Zerinsky said,

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Speaker 1: quote from the Soviet Union, where domestic propaganda is a

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Speaker 1: principal government activity, attempting to kind of demonize that. So

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Speaker 1: Zarinsky and Senator Jay William Fulbright sold their amendments on

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Speaker 1: this idea of sensible rhetoric, which I've been trying to

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Speaker 1: get get at. American taxpayers shouldn't be funding propaganda for

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Speaker 1: American audiences, and that makes sense to me. But we

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Speaker 1: should be funding propaganda, you know it to all the

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Speaker 1: other countries that are our enemies or our potential rivals. Sure, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: Like we shouldn't be lied to is the American public,

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Speaker 1: And you know what, we also shouldn't be paying people

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Speaker 1: for the privilege of being lied to. That makes sense

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Speaker 1: to me. It sounds like that's something all of us

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Speaker 1: are on board heard with and here's the news. Uh,

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Speaker 1: it's quiet news. So don't feel bad if you missed it.

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Speaker 1: This rule, this, this sort of differentiation between US and

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Speaker 1: the quote unquote bad guys, all ended in ten seven

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Speaker 1: years ago, almost exactly seven years There was a reform

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Speaker 1: that was passed in January and went into effect in July.

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Speaker 1: It had relatively little media coverage, and it changed the rule.

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Speaker 1: So ever since, the US government has been allowed to

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Speaker 1: market propaganda directly to the residents of the United States.

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Speaker 1: And this sounds maybe arguably like a small difference, like

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Speaker 1: that doesn't really matter. It does, especially when you consider

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Speaker 1: how much programming that opened the door for It's it's huge. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there's a ton of stuff produced prior to that that

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Speaker 1: you would never get inside the United States. Uh, the

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Speaker 1: stuff like the um, it's stuff that's made by the

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Speaker 1: Broadcasting Board of Governors, so Voice of America that we

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Speaker 1: already mentioned, Radio Free Europe, Radio Liberty, the Middle East Broadcasting,

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Speaker 1: all of those networks. Uh, they can only be viewed

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Speaker 1: or listened to in broadcast quality, like the full quality

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Speaker 1: that you're meant to listen to. Let's say, like if

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Speaker 1: you're in your car listening to the radio or something. Um,

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Speaker 1: if you're in a foreign country, if you were a

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Speaker 1: different place other than than the United States or territory,

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Speaker 1: theo's the only places you could listen to that stuff.

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Speaker 1: But uh, not anymore. And that content is viewed in

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Speaker 1: more than a hundred countries in sixty one languages. And

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Speaker 1: within that programming, you're gonna hear about human rights abuses

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Speaker 1: in Iran, uh, issues in Tibet like self immolation of

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Speaker 1: you know, certain believers there or protesters there, the human

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Speaker 1: human trafficking all across the Asian continent, and all kinds

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Speaker 1: of on the ground reporting in war torn areas, in

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Speaker 1: places like Egypt, also in places like a Rock, that's

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Speaker 1: where you're gonna find all of that kind of stuff.

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Speaker 1: But you know, to to be fair, I mean, we

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Speaker 1: have to know that there's definitely a reason for this.

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Speaker 1: There's some valid arguments for this. Uh. The v O

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Speaker 1: A S Charter makes makes this pretty boldly stated. Um,

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Speaker 1: they emphasize accuracy. Quote. Our journalists provide what many people

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Speaker 1: cannot get locally uncensored news, responsible discussion, and open debate.

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Speaker 1: How do you how do you like that language? Ben?

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Speaker 1: That's what they said, you know, that's that's their charter. Uh.

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Speaker 1: You know, I think it's a good point though, because

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Speaker 1: the uh, because it is what could be described, maybe

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Speaker 1: somewhat glibally as a pickle. There's an anonymous source where

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Speaker 1: several anonymous sources from the US government who say that

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Speaker 1: Voice of America warts and all does serve a good purpose.

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Speaker 1: They call it counter programming, counterpropagandistic programming for people in

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Speaker 1: incredibly unstable areas that have little media access. So take

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Speaker 1: Somalia for example. Smalia is of failed state. It's very

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Speaker 1: difficult to live there. And according to at least one source,

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Speaker 1: again who wished to remain anonymous, they say Somali's have

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Speaker 1: three options for news, word of Mouth, al Shabab, or

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Speaker 1: Voice of America Somalia. So their argument is this propaganda

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Speaker 1: has to exist because it is um. It is providing

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Speaker 1: like like you said in that mission statement, and all

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Speaker 1: it's providing uh quote unquote uncensored news. Uh And okay,

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Speaker 1: look clearly uncensored news and responsible discussion. UM. Responsible discussion

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Speaker 1: sounds like it could also be censorship. That could be

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Speaker 1: a that could be like someone's safe word for censorship, honestly,

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Speaker 1: but that also dodges the real question Okay, yeah, alright.

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Speaker 1: Granted this is important for areas of the world that

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Speaker 1: would not otherwise have any kind of international news or

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Speaker 1: any kind of larger context, but that fails to answer

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Speaker 1: the question about why we would pipe this kind of stuff,

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Speaker 1: which can sometimes be orwellian, into the ears of people

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Speaker 1: who live in this country. Uh. The argument is that

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Speaker 1: if we do that by doing that, since this programming

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Speaker 1: has been able to reach large expatriate communities like U

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Speaker 1: the to go back to the Smalley example, a big

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Speaker 1: part of the Smalley and diaspora is composed of people

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Speaker 1: who live in St. Paul, Minnesota. So they're saying, look,

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Speaker 1: this is propaganda, but it's accurate and it lets us

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Speaker 1: reach people, you know, who need to be reached here

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Speaker 1: in the country. So overall, they're saying, we're doing a

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Speaker 1: good thing. Do you believe them? We'll see, We'll see.

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Speaker 1: Proponents who argue in favor of Voice of America and

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Speaker 1: similar propaganda enterprises produced by the US government say that

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Speaker 1: they are transparent. As a matter of fact, spokesperson for

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Speaker 1: the BBG the Broadcasting Board of Governors, again named Lynn Well,

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Speaker 1: would not even call what the organization does propaganda Instead,

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Speaker 1: she said, it's an argument for transparency. She said, Look,

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Speaker 1: this is overall a good thing. Quote. Now Americans will

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Speaker 1: be able to know more about what they are paying

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Speaker 1: for with their tax dollars. Greater transparency, she says, is

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Speaker 1: a win win for everyone involved. Uh. She doesn't mention

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Speaker 1: this in her statements, but it is important to note. Uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, less we look at less, we look at

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Speaker 1: skance at the US for uh, marketing propaganda to U.

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Speaker 1: S citizens. We have to remember a ton of other

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Speaker 1: foreign countries are already marketing propaganda here, arguably a little

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Speaker 1: more successfully in some case. Yeah, and you know, before

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Speaker 1: you say hey, yeah, yeah, BBC News in the United States,

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Speaker 1: that's obviously propaganda. Hey, come on, we don't know. Maybe

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Speaker 1: it is, but it's certainly something that comes on my

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Speaker 1: radio when I listened to NPR in the morning. Well

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Speaker 1: that's the thing, though, It's all about like what your

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Speaker 1: opinion of propaganda is, and like what's the rubric? You know,

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Speaker 1: like I don't know that there is one exactly, because

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Speaker 1: so much of it you can't prove is a lie

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Speaker 1: or is well if there's a the slant that Ben

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Speaker 1: kind of mentioned at the top of this here that's

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Speaker 1: where you end up kind of seeing the crack, seeing

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Speaker 1: where it actually is propaganda of some sort because they're

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Speaker 1: reoccurring themes. Let's take a quick case in point here

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Speaker 1: and jump to Kansas City, Missouri, Missouri. How did Missouri

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Speaker 1: missa Missouri? Well, there was a New York Times article

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Speaker 1: that came out in February of this year that it's

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Speaker 1: written by Neil mc mc mcfarquhar, and he is talking

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Speaker 1: about a radio station that is broadcasting there in Kansas City.

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Speaker 1: It's called Radio spot Nick, and according to Neil in

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Speaker 1: the New York Times, it is a propaganda arm of

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Speaker 1: the Russian government and it started broadcasting on three radio

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Speaker 1: stations in that area during the prime drive time. So radio,

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Speaker 1: if you're in your car commuting, you're gonna hear this

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Speaker 1: if you are on that channel. And uh, it's a

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Speaker 1: little strange. Let let me just read this quote. In

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Speaker 1: the United States, talk radio on this channel, spot Nick

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Speaker 1: covers the political spectrum from right to left. So again

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Speaker 1: you're getting what may feel like balanced news, like you're

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Speaker 1: getting just a regular old station, but there is a

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Speaker 1: constant backbeat according to this article, that is that America

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Speaker 1: is damaged goods that there's something wrong with America. There's

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Speaker 1: things aren't going right. There are problems, major issues, and

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Speaker 1: here all here are all of the issues with America. UM.

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Speaker 1: And it's interesting just to know that this is happening

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Speaker 1: in the United States with what is believed, like we said, uh,

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Speaker 1: to be Russian propaganda. We want to emphasize this is legal.

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Speaker 1: You can learn a lot about the story and you

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Speaker 1: have to remember there's a human element. So this Radio

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Speaker 1: spot Nick exists in the US primarily because of a

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Speaker 1: radio station owner named Pete Chartel. Uh he was laying

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Speaker 1: like two years ago, eighteen or so, he had to

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Speaker 1: lay off his entire staff and uh he sail. He

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Speaker 1: was having a fire sale on ad spots. He hadn't

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Speaker 1: paid himself in months and months. It looked like his

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Speaker 1: operation was going to close. But Radio spot Nick was

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Speaker 1: paying thirty thousand dollars a month to broadcast its programming

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Speaker 1: in d C. And that's what that's what led him

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Speaker 1: to to this. It was He's not like a Russian

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Speaker 1: sleeper agent allah the Americans that we know of, right right,

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Speaker 1: He's a guy who's trying to UM, who's trying to

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Speaker 1: keep the lights on it's an understandable thing. And this

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Speaker 1: is this is just one specific example. Uh, this could

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Speaker 1: be also it's been called public diplomacy. It could also

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Speaker 1: be called soft diplomacy. You know, you can win hearts

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Speaker 1: and minds without ever putting your hand on a gun

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Speaker 1: or god forbid, a nuclear weapon. But we wanted to

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Speaker 1: bring to your attention today something else. That's the that's

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Speaker 1: the lay of the land now, right. Whatever law protected

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Speaker 1: you quote unquote from domestic propaganda, uh is no longer

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Speaker 1: in effect. It hasn't been for almost seven years. So

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Speaker 1: please think critically about all the stuff you you've run

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Speaker 1: into since. Uh. It also turns out that there's much

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Speaker 1: more to this story. The US has been flouting its

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Speaker 1: own laws for even longer. We're going to take a

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Speaker 1: pause for word from our sponsor. Uh. That, as far

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Speaker 1: as we know, is not US propaganda. Uh. And we'll

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Speaker 1: get back to you after the break. Here's where it

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Speaker 1: gets crazier, actually much crazy. Yeah. Yeah, we've got double

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Speaker 1: double the crazy here. First, I don't know it's a

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Speaker 1: double ment of crazy though, for sure. Uh, the US

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Speaker 1: has been conducting this domestic propaganda kind of operation. The

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Speaker 1: these sorts of endeavors for decades and decades. Uh since uh,

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Speaker 1: since your grandparents were alive easily if you know, uh,

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Speaker 1: it's it's uh. The easiest way to to crack this

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Speaker 1: one open is to start with two words. Operation mocking Bird. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Operation mocking Bird was a secret campaign by the U

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Speaker 1: S c i A designed to influence the media, our media.

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Speaker 1: It was started by Cord Meyer and Alan W. Dulles

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Speaker 1: uh and later run by Frank Wisner after Dulles became

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Speaker 1: the head of the c i A. On paper, it

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Speaker 1: was all about fighting communism, fighting the reds, the roost keys,

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Speaker 1: and promoting Western values. Uh. Wisner was told to create

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Speaker 1: an organization the concentrated on quote propaganda, economic warfare, preventative

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Speaker 1: direct action including sabotage, anti sabotage, demolition and evacuation measures, uh,

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Speaker 1: subversion against hostile states, including assistance to underground resistance groups,

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Speaker 1: and US support of indigenous anti communist elements and threatened

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Speaker 1: countries of the free world. Hold on, let's unpack this.

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Speaker 1: So this is like a free reign to kind of

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Speaker 1: collude with other countries and like an effort of h

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Speaker 1: of covert warfare back against our own country. Yeah, this

426
00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:13,639
Speaker 1: is uh, this is a quote that directly speaks to

427
00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:17,920
Speaker 1: our earlier episodes on why a lot of foreign countries

428
00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:22,800
Speaker 1: don't trust nonprofits. Uh. This is this, This is a

429
00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:28,879
Speaker 1: war of ideology, and Wisener is Wisener is tasked with

430
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:32,480
Speaker 1: controlling the narrative in the US and later franchising or

431
00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:37,440
Speaker 1: expanding into a global war. So that's why like underground

432
00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:43,600
Speaker 1: resistance groups that could be anybody from UM transparent political

433
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:48,760
Speaker 1: opponents of a regime to uh student body that gets

434
00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:56,480
Speaker 1: uh that gets radicalized. Uh. Wisner also is pulling journalists

435
00:28:56,960 --> 00:29:00,200
Speaker 1: from the US who are who are a credit it

436
00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:03,800
Speaker 1: and who work at uh some top notch publications of

437
00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:06,680
Speaker 1: note here, and he's he's getting them to help fight

438
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:09,479
Speaker 1: the battle at home. He turns a guy named Philip

439
00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:13,720
Speaker 1: Graham at the Washington Post, UH, and he has Graham

440
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:19,360
Speaker 1: run this project within the journalism industry, and Graham starts

441
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:22,840
Speaker 1: recruiting other people. Uh. There's a laundry list of names

442
00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:26,680
Speaker 1: who may be familiar to our fellow listeners, who are

443
00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:29,960
Speaker 1: history buffs into the murky world of spycraft. We're talking

444
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:34,360
Speaker 1: about people like James Truett, Russell Wiggins, UH, Phil Guillen,

445
00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:39,720
Speaker 1: John Hayes, Alan Barth And there's here's something important. Technically,

446
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:45,080
Speaker 1: when you read about this in official sources, declassified documents

447
00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:50,080
Speaker 1: and so on, you'll you'll hear the program uh rarely

448
00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:52,720
Speaker 1: ever mentioned in actual documents. We have one mention that

449
00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:55,800
Speaker 1: will cite later. But then you will also here it's

450
00:29:55,800 --> 00:30:01,440
Speaker 1: still described as a quote alleged opera ration. But but

451
00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:03,640
Speaker 1: what what did it do? So we've got that, like

452
00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:06,000
Speaker 1: you said, well, we've got a lot to unpack in

453
00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:10,000
Speaker 1: Wisners sort of mandate. But how did that translate to

454
00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:15,560
Speaker 1: actual things they did with journalists here? Well, ultimately, this

455
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:20,080
Speaker 1: thing that we're calling Operation mocking Bird, it was an

456
00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:24,480
Speaker 1: influence campaign, a way to influence all the media different media,

457
00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:30,040
Speaker 1: print media, uh, television. It was to incentivize or threaten

458
00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:35,560
Speaker 1: so carrot or stick uh journalists to really put out

459
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:39,280
Speaker 1: the stories that the people running this operation wanted to

460
00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:41,800
Speaker 1: actually be out there, to be talked about around the

461
00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:44,840
Speaker 1: water cooler, to be things that would generally be in

462
00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:49,480
Speaker 1: the zeitgeist um or. And this is really important. When

463
00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:52,320
Speaker 1: a big news story would come out, the operatives that

464
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:56,520
Speaker 1: we're working, you know, led by Philip Graham there would

465
00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:59,720
Speaker 1: be able to spin the news and those big stories

466
00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:01,400
Speaker 1: as they come out, we can put a little something

467
00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:03,920
Speaker 1: on it before we you know, send it out into

468
00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:06,560
Speaker 1: the world. That's going to change the way people are

469
00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:10,320
Speaker 1: going to view this particular story or and this is

470
00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:15,360
Speaker 1: probably the worst part, to hide news stories from the public,

471
00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:18,920
Speaker 1: just to keep things that they've found unfavorable out of

472
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:22,120
Speaker 1: our ears and eyes. Yeah, that's the thing. A method

473
00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:25,440
Speaker 1: called catch and kill where you basically like intercept the

474
00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:29,280
Speaker 1: story and uh, in some way or another, influence it

475
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:31,520
Speaker 1: to not ever see the light of day, whether it's

476
00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:35,800
Speaker 1: through intimidation, tactics, or bribery or any number of ways. Yeah,

477
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 1: it's kind of similar to the tactic or the phenomenon

478
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:44,560
Speaker 1: known as the Overton window, which is sort of influencing

479
00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:47,480
Speaker 1: the bounds of what can be talked about, what is

480
00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:53,000
Speaker 1: considered credible or legitimate or valid conversation. Uh. Good examples

481
00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:56,520
Speaker 1: of this would be, uh, the suppression of agent orange

482
00:31:56,600 --> 00:32:00,560
Speaker 1: reporting for a while. Another I don't know if this

483
00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:03,200
Speaker 1: is a solid example, but a good question to ask

484
00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:07,200
Speaker 1: is why isn't there more reporting about the health effects

485
00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:11,560
Speaker 1: of depleted uranium, which has been used in firearm rounds.

486
00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:15,080
Speaker 1: There should be more, but for a long time there

487
00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:23,400
Speaker 1: wasn't the the organizations that the CIA contacted, organizations and individuals. Uh,

488
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:26,320
Speaker 1: they wanted to present as you said, that the CIA's view.

489
00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:30,920
Speaker 1: The CIA also funded student and cultural organizations and used

490
00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:36,160
Speaker 1: magazines as fronts. Not necessarily specialized trade magazines all the time,

491
00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:38,680
Speaker 1: more the kind of stuff you would see in a

492
00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:42,440
Speaker 1: waiting room at your local doctors or dentist's office. And

493
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:44,640
Speaker 1: then as it developed, kind of like you said, no,

494
00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:47,320
Speaker 1: it started to franchise out. They would work to influence

495
00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:51,960
Speaker 1: foreign media, They work to influence political campaigns in other countries.

496
00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:54,520
Speaker 1: And this was all by the way, this was all

497
00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:59,160
Speaker 1: just like gravy on the meat loaf. That was other

498
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:04,560
Speaker 1: illegal CIA operations already happening. Sorry for that painful comparison.

499
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:08,680
Speaker 1: Didn't get lunch today, So I'm very all my comparisons

500
00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:11,440
Speaker 1: are like food based for right now. But we know,

501
00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:15,320
Speaker 1: we know that Wisner was a huge success. There's an

502
00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:18,880
Speaker 1: author named Deborah Davis. Uh. She had wrote a book

503
00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:21,960
Speaker 1: called Catherine the Great, and when she's talking about Wisner,

504
00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:26,800
Speaker 1: she says, by the early nineteen fifties, Wisner owned respective

505
00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:31,880
Speaker 1: members of the New York Times, Newsweek, CBS, and other

506
00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:36,800
Speaker 1: communications vehicles and they were. They were getting big name

507
00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:40,080
Speaker 1: journalists like too many to name, but well we've got

508
00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:42,440
Speaker 1: an example of like at least one or two, we

509
00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:45,240
Speaker 1: sure do. UM. One of the most important journalists under

510
00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:49,280
Speaker 1: the control of Operation Locking Bird was Joseph Alsop, who

511
00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:53,000
Speaker 1: wrote articles forever three hundred different newspapers. And he was

512
00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:56,840
Speaker 1: far from the only player the mocking Bird UH project

513
00:33:56,920 --> 00:34:00,680
Speaker 1: of influence. The sphere of influence that wise are held

514
00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:05,600
Speaker 1: UM included journalists from the New York Herald, Tribune, Time Magazine,

515
00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:09,520
Speaker 1: Miami News, the Washington Star, Newsweek, the Chattanooga Times. I

516
00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:12,879
Speaker 1: mean paper is large and small. No, you know, none

517
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:16,759
Speaker 1: were too insignificant. The whole idea was to influence broadly

518
00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:20,080
Speaker 1: and uh and also narrowly if needed. The list goes

519
00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:22,799
Speaker 1: on UM. According to a guy by the name of

520
00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:26,359
Speaker 1: Alex Constantine, who wrote a book called Mockingbird, The Subversion

521
00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:30,680
Speaker 1: of the Free Press by the CIA in the fifties. UH,

522
00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:34,840
Speaker 1: he says, quote, some three thousand salaried and contracts CIA

523
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:41,520
Speaker 1: employees were eventually engaged in propaganda efforts. That's that's not insignificant,

524
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:46,279
Speaker 1: ben we talk about the idea of illegal CIA operations.

525
00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:48,880
Speaker 1: It's just that's always interesting to me to hear that, because,

526
00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:54,120
Speaker 1: you know, isn't it like it's just extra legal kind of? Right?

527
00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:57,359
Speaker 1: The idea that it's illegal, it's almost a misnomer kind

528
00:34:57,360 --> 00:35:01,080
Speaker 1: of because it's like it's obviously got sanctioned the blessing

529
00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:03,719
Speaker 1: from someone that's a very on on high. You know,

530
00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:07,840
Speaker 1: I always wonder about that. Yeah, it's uh, it's the

531
00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:12,520
Speaker 1: Congressional military industrial complex. Right. That was the original phrase

532
00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:16,200
Speaker 1: Eisenhower was going to use, but it got edited out

533
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:20,360
Speaker 1: of his speech, so he doesn't mention Congress in it. Yeah,

534
00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:23,600
Speaker 1: you know, it's there's so many moving parts to an

535
00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:26,960
Speaker 1: organization the size of the US government that they're inevitably

536
00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:31,160
Speaker 1: going to be contradictory agendas. And if you are able

537
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:36,000
Speaker 1: to pursue what you see as the greater good, uh,

538
00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:39,160
Speaker 1: and there's only one or two pesky laws stopping you,

539
00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:44,040
Speaker 1: then wouldn't you put doing the right thing over following

540
00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:47,320
Speaker 1: some uh, some sheaf of documents that's rotting in the

541
00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:50,320
Speaker 1: dusty hall. Uh? And you know, even if those documents

542
00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:53,480
Speaker 1: are things like the U. S. Constitution. Uh, It's it's

543
00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:57,920
Speaker 1: very easy for very intelligent people to rationalize all sorts

544
00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:02,360
Speaker 1: of horrible behavior. And this this goes into um, yeah,

545
00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:06,239
Speaker 1: this goes into the subversion of the free press. That's

546
00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:09,560
Speaker 1: exactly what happened, Matt. I appreciate that you pointed out.

547
00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:12,760
Speaker 1: One of the most dangerous capabilities of Operation mocking Bird

548
00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:17,120
Speaker 1: was to again I'm like legally required to say allegedly

549
00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:22,440
Speaker 1: so was to allegedly, uh, keep stories out of the

550
00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:25,239
Speaker 1: news too, as you said, Noel catch and to kill

551
00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:31,400
Speaker 1: Wisner was able to stop newspapers from reporting the overthrow

552
00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:34,520
Speaker 1: of the government of Iran, at least for a while, uh,

553
00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:38,080
Speaker 1: to prevent them from reporting on the coup and Guatemala,

554
00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:43,000
Speaker 1: which we should also mentioned Edward Burns was instrumental in

555
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:48,279
Speaker 1: uh drumming up at least ideological support for this is

556
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:52,640
Speaker 1: where this is where Eisenhower himself kind of shows up. Uh.

557
00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:56,319
Speaker 1: Henry Luch. Henry Luch. He is the owner at the

558
00:36:56,360 --> 00:36:59,600
Speaker 1: time of a large media empire, and the rules were

559
00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:03,040
Speaker 1: a little bit different for him because he was a tycoon.

560
00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:05,560
Speaker 1: You know, he was a mogul. He wasn't just uh,

561
00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:09,359
Speaker 1: he wasn't just a hard working in trepid journalists. He

562
00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:13,360
Speaker 1: became key in Operation Mockingbird, and because of his personal

563
00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:16,560
Speaker 1: wealth and power, he was able to push his own agenda.

564
00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:23,719
Speaker 1: He really wanted a more right wing presidential administration, and

565
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:26,680
Speaker 1: he did this because he thought it was the best

566
00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:28,960
Speaker 1: way to fight communism. So he was one of those

567
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:31,560
Speaker 1: guys who was always at the time saying, well, you know,

568
00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:35,319
Speaker 1: the Democrats are very, very soft on communism, and this

569
00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:38,439
Speaker 1: nation is gonna fall if we let these reds get

570
00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:42,000
Speaker 1: in and and launch their fifth column or whatever. So

571
00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:47,120
Speaker 1: he used his magazines in the concert kind of with

572
00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:51,640
Speaker 1: Operation Mockingbird to help get Dwight D. Eisenhower elected president.

573
00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:55,240
Speaker 1: And then in nineteen fifty three the web expands because

574
00:37:55,280 --> 00:38:00,920
Speaker 1: Eisenhower appointed appointed a family member of Henry Luches to

575
00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:05,920
Speaker 1: become ambassador to Italy. This was the first first American

576
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:10,040
Speaker 1: woman ambassador to a major country. So on the offset,

577
00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:12,239
Speaker 1: that seems like a very very good thing. It's more

578
00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:18,719
Speaker 1: representation in politics, right, But they got there because in

579
00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:21,160
Speaker 1: a dirty way. They took a dirty path to get there.

580
00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:24,600
Speaker 1: And then other members to to your point about um

581
00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:28,600
Speaker 1: or that that point about contradicting agendas, other powerful people

582
00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:32,279
Speaker 1: in the government, other members of other institutions started to

583
00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:39,040
Speaker 1: become worry of the CIA's power, even envious of it. Yes, yeah,

584
00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:41,120
Speaker 1: This is where we're going to talk about kind of

585
00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:45,680
Speaker 1: the the fall of this operation, why it wasn't successful,

586
00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:50,480
Speaker 1: and why it allegedly doesn't continue right now. Yeah, it's

587
00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:54,080
Speaker 1: it's because our boy, Jed gro Hoover Um was not

588
00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:58,600
Speaker 1: happy with how powerful the CIA had grown. Um he

589
00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:04,799
Speaker 1: referred to Wisener's network as Wisener's gang of weirdos. And

590
00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:08,640
Speaker 1: then he actually started looking for dirt on the members

591
00:39:08,719 --> 00:39:12,239
Speaker 1: of Wisener's Gang of Weirdos, looking into their past, and

592
00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:14,480
Speaker 1: didn't take him long to figure out that some of

593
00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:18,480
Speaker 1: them had been active, uh surprise, surprise in Oh Heavens

594
00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:22,000
Speaker 1: to Betsy left wing politics back in the nineteen thirties,

595
00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:26,400
Speaker 1: which is at that time was was essentially tantamount to

596
00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:31,920
Speaker 1: being a commie. Right. Yeah, that's and Joseph McCarthy, who

597
00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:35,080
Speaker 1: will dive into in a future episode on the House

598
00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:39,239
Speaker 1: on American Activities Committee. Joseph McCarthy also started trying to

599
00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:42,319
Speaker 1: target members of the CIA and say that they were

600
00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:45,800
Speaker 1: security risk or they were compromised. He claimed the CIA

601
00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:49,000
Speaker 1: was a quote sync whole of communists, and he said,

602
00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:51,640
Speaker 1: I'm I'm gonna root out a hundred of them. One

603
00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:54,480
Speaker 1: of his first targets was cord Meyer, who at that

604
00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:59,440
Speaker 1: time was still working still allegedly working for Operation mocking Bird.

605
00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:03,680
Speaker 1: But to put it bluntly, McCarthy had no idea who

606
00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:10,800
Speaker 1: he was messing with. Uh. Wisner unleashed mocking Bird on McCarthy. Uh.

607
00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:14,440
Speaker 1: Several members of the media that were also working on

608
00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:19,040
Speaker 1: this operation, Drew Pearson, Ed Murrow, Walter Lippman, and more.

609
00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:22,560
Speaker 1: They went into attack mode. They're part of the reason

610
00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:27,279
Speaker 1: that McCarthy got such damaging press coverage. Again, again, we're

611
00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:31,200
Speaker 1: not here to defend McCarthy, and he clearly became a

612
00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:33,799
Speaker 1: flim flam man who was out of his depth. But

613
00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:37,200
Speaker 1: the way we got there was dirty and it was

614
00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:41,799
Speaker 1: orchestrated in part by the CIA. There aren't a lot

615
00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:44,880
Speaker 1: of good guys here, if you know, if you delve

616
00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:48,880
Speaker 1: into the story, and the US government was then attacking

617
00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:52,960
Speaker 1: its own people and attacking its own you know, technically,

618
00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:56,200
Speaker 1: its own agenda. It's weird because it feels like the

619
00:40:56,400 --> 00:41:00,000
Speaker 1: change in public opinion, you know, when you're thinking about

620
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:02,160
Speaker 1: McCarthy is um And I know we haven't outlined that

621
00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:04,759
Speaker 1: to its full extent in this episode, but as Ben said,

622
00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:10,040
Speaker 1: we will later. But you you may think of the

623
00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:13,719
Speaker 1: public support that McCarthy had for rooting out communists in

624
00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:16,640
Speaker 1: the way that he was in the you know, administration

625
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:20,400
Speaker 1: was at that time. Um, there was such support for it,

626
00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:24,359
Speaker 1: or there was perceived support for it, um in a

627
00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:27,880
Speaker 1: lot of ways, and then to have that perceived support

628
00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:33,600
Speaker 1: just completely taken away by these very prominent voices within

629
00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:38,560
Speaker 1: the media industry. You can really see you can see

630
00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:42,480
Speaker 1: it happening, I guess. And it's not something it's not

631
00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:44,520
Speaker 1: in a way that I would have imagined if I

632
00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:46,759
Speaker 1: was just reading it in you know, a history book,

633
00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:49,479
Speaker 1: the way it has been recorded over all these years.

634
00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:52,040
Speaker 1: It's just, you know, the winds, the winds of change

635
00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:56,160
Speaker 1: came and now McCarthy was out. But no, there was

636
00:41:56,200 --> 00:42:00,520
Speaker 1: some assistance there, allegedly. And this this where we get

637
00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:04,040
Speaker 1: to a point where we we ask ourselves what happened

638
00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:08,600
Speaker 1: to Operation Mockingbird. Eventually, all good and evil things must

639
00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:12,000
Speaker 1: come to an end, right, This operation had so many

640
00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:14,800
Speaker 1: players it couldn't be secret forever. It was an open

641
00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:17,880
Speaker 1: secret in the industry, in the journalism industry. By the

642
00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:20,680
Speaker 1: late nineteen sixties. It started to lose its cover in

643
00:42:20,719 --> 00:42:24,160
Speaker 1: the seventies in a big way because of Watergate. So

644
00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:29,120
Speaker 1: the Watergate scandal exacerbated concern about the power of intelligence agencies.

645
00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:32,600
Speaker 1: This is early seventies, nineteen seventy two, nineteen seventy four.

646
00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:38,360
Speaker 1: Congress was becoming concerned uh that the president would be

647
00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:41,480
Speaker 1: able to use the powers of the intelligence networks for

648
00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:45,279
Speaker 1: their own nefarious ends. And then this all hits a

649
00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:49,680
Speaker 1: powder keg moment when the famous reporter Seymour Hirsch publishes

650
00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:53,400
Speaker 1: is nineteen seventy five expose a about c I a

651
00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:56,680
Speaker 1: domestic surveillance which you know, fellow listeners, you've you've heard

652
00:42:56,719 --> 00:43:00,319
Speaker 1: us talk about that before. Long story short. This leads

653
00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:04,200
Speaker 1: Congress to authorize a series of investigations into the CIA

654
00:43:04,239 --> 00:43:08,080
Speaker 1: from ninety five to nineteen seventy six. They examined a

655
00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:11,560
Speaker 1: ton of different operations. They also find CIA ties with

656
00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:16,359
Speaker 1: journalists as well as private voluntary organizations, but none of

657
00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:23,280
Speaker 1: these reports, interestingly enough, specifically refer to Operation mocking Bird.

658
00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:26,760
Speaker 1: All the famous Church Committee report found was that quote,

659
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:30,880
Speaker 1: the CIA currently maintains a network of several hundred foreign

660
00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:34,600
Speaker 1: individuals around the world who provide intelligence and at times

661
00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:39,880
Speaker 1: attempt to influence opinion through the use of propaganda and this.

662
00:43:39,880 --> 00:43:43,799
Speaker 1: This is weird because the CIA already knew the heat

663
00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:48,359
Speaker 1: was coming, and they had they had begun restricting their

664
00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:51,960
Speaker 1: use of domestic journalists and foreign journalists, at least according

665
00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:56,480
Speaker 1: to them. Uh like right as this was all hitting

666
00:43:56,520 --> 00:43:59,800
Speaker 1: the fan. So in nineteen seventy three, the former director

667
00:43:59,840 --> 00:44:04,080
Speaker 1: of the CIA, William Colby, told the Church Committee UM

668
00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:08,320
Speaker 1: that he believed, as a general policy, Um, the CIA

669
00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:14,759
Speaker 1: won't be able to use clandestine uh operations anymore, won't

670
00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:17,600
Speaker 1: be able to use staff to perpetrate these kinds of

671
00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:22,680
Speaker 1: operations UM on US publications. It's it's it's it's uh,

672
00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:25,440
Speaker 1: which have a substantial impact is what he says, quote

673
00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:30,400
Speaker 1: uh or influence on public opinion. Um. So he's essentially

674
00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:33,799
Speaker 1: shutting this down, right. And just three years after that,

675
00:44:33,960 --> 00:44:37,040
Speaker 1: George H. W. Bush, who was in the CIA director

676
00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:41,879
Speaker 1: you know, member of the Bush political dynasty would later

677
00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:44,720
Speaker 1: go on to be president, he said the following quote,

678
00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:48,480
Speaker 1: effective immediately, CIA will not enter into any paid or

679
00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:52,680
Speaker 1: contractual relationship with any full time or part time news

680
00:44:52,680 --> 00:44:58,680
Speaker 1: correspondent accredited by any new US news service, newspaper, periodical, radio,

681
00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:04,640
Speaker 1: or television network or station. So there we go, problem solved, right,

682
00:45:04,760 --> 00:45:08,080
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy six on we are G two G that

683
00:45:08,239 --> 00:45:11,880
Speaker 1: is short for good to go, uh we or are we?

684
00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:14,799
Speaker 1: We do have to mention uh we tease the one

685
00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:19,600
Speaker 1: specific mention of Operation mocking Bird in official docks the

686
00:45:19,640 --> 00:45:24,560
Speaker 1: Family Jewels, the Infamous Family Jewels, Massy classification of CIA documents,

687
00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:28,880
Speaker 1: uh says the following in full. Here, it's interesting to

688
00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:33,799
Speaker 1: see how they characterize mocking Bird. And this comes from

689
00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:36,080
Speaker 1: and you can find this right now if you're hanging

690
00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:38,880
Speaker 1: out the Black Vault dot com. And this is a

691
00:45:38,960 --> 00:45:41,960
Speaker 1: quote from the sixth page that you'll find there. Projects

692
00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:45,960
Speaker 1: mocking Bird, a telephone intercept activity was conducted between twelve

693
00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:50,440
Speaker 1: of March nineteen sixty three and fifteenth of June nineteen

694
00:45:50,520 --> 00:45:53,560
Speaker 1: sixty three, so a very short time there, and targeted

695
00:45:53,600 --> 00:45:56,680
Speaker 1: to Washington based newsman who at the time had been

696
00:45:56,680 --> 00:46:01,680
Speaker 1: publishing news articles based on and frequently quoting classified materials

697
00:46:01,719 --> 00:46:05,400
Speaker 1: of this agency, the CIA, and others, including top secret

698
00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:10,319
Speaker 1: and special intelligence. And you know, that's it sounds like

699
00:46:11,120 --> 00:46:13,680
Speaker 1: a very tiny operation, right There are two newsmen who

700
00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:16,960
Speaker 1: have access to information that they probably shouldn't have or

701
00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:21,160
Speaker 1: that you know, someone is feeding to them, or that uh,

702
00:46:21,520 --> 00:46:24,280
Speaker 1: you know, in some way, these guys are getting access

703
00:46:24,280 --> 00:46:26,560
Speaker 1: to that secret information that they shouldn't have it. So

704
00:46:26,719 --> 00:46:29,000
Speaker 1: they checked out two guys, they wire tapped them, and

705
00:46:29,120 --> 00:46:31,200
Speaker 1: they figured out what happened, and then it was over right,

706
00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:34,240
Speaker 1: But they stopped, right, I mean, if everything's fine, they're

707
00:46:34,280 --> 00:46:37,839
Speaker 1: not doing this anymore. That they put the brakes on

708
00:46:37,880 --> 00:46:42,640
Speaker 1: this program, so no worries, Everything is all good, right. Yeah,

709
00:46:42,880 --> 00:46:45,560
Speaker 1: that leads us to our conclusion, and we wish there

710
00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:48,080
Speaker 1: was a little bit different because the answer really to

711
00:46:48,160 --> 00:46:51,920
Speaker 1: that excellent question is not so fast. You know, decades

712
00:46:51,960 --> 00:46:56,200
Speaker 1: have passed since the mid seventies, but numerous people, some

713
00:46:56,320 --> 00:47:01,080
Speaker 1: of your faithful hosts included, believe this program never really stopped.

714
00:47:01,239 --> 00:47:03,280
Speaker 1: And it's easy to see why a lot of people

715
00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:06,319
Speaker 1: believe that this is the era of fake news. After all,

716
00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:10,800
Speaker 1: maybe we don't even need the CIA to conduct this anymore.

717
00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:16,400
Speaker 1: Maybe the massive consolidation of media conglomerates alone has led

718
00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:20,880
Speaker 1: to more effective control over more media than ever before.

719
00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:25,400
Speaker 1: The thing is, you'll notice that that mentioned from Family

720
00:47:25,480 --> 00:47:29,080
Speaker 1: Jewels talks about a project mocking Bird. We're talking about

721
00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:32,960
Speaker 1: an Operation mocking Bird. That's that's the closest we could get.

722
00:47:33,320 --> 00:47:36,640
Speaker 1: And they sound like very different things. They sound like

723
00:47:36,800 --> 00:47:41,680
Speaker 1: completely different things. One is feeding information to the press,

724
00:47:41,800 --> 00:47:44,480
Speaker 1: the other is trying to figure out how the press

725
00:47:44,520 --> 00:47:49,480
Speaker 1: is getting all this dang information. So maybe maybe Operation

726
00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:53,360
Speaker 1: Mockingbird was happening, and then Project mocking Bird was to

727
00:47:53,360 --> 00:47:55,400
Speaker 1: figure out what the heck was happening with the operation.

728
00:47:55,920 --> 00:48:00,959
Speaker 1: I mean, honestly, because the people involved, Robert Kennedy, Rob McNamara,

729
00:48:01,400 --> 00:48:05,120
Speaker 1: huge names, These people are involved directly with the tiny

730
00:48:05,120 --> 00:48:09,040
Speaker 1: snippet we talked about Project mocking Bird. Joseph Carroll is involved.

731
00:48:09,480 --> 00:48:14,960
Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's just it's so insane to imagine

732
00:48:15,680 --> 00:48:20,400
Speaker 1: if Operation mocking Bird was real, absolutely was real, just

733
00:48:20,520 --> 00:48:24,680
Speaker 1: full stop, and they were doing all these things. Who

734
00:48:24,840 --> 00:48:28,799
Speaker 1: who knows exactly how many people were involved and would

735
00:48:28,880 --> 00:48:34,879
Speaker 1: have information about this compartmentalized activity. Um, you know, it's

736
00:48:34,960 --> 00:48:37,360
Speaker 1: that whole thing where maybe the left hand has no

737
00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:40,279
Speaker 1: idea what the right hand is doing. Yeah, And and

738
00:48:40,320 --> 00:48:43,320
Speaker 1: then the big question is if you had this tremendous network,

739
00:48:43,400 --> 00:48:46,560
Speaker 1: this infrastructure, and you knew that you were on the

740
00:48:46,760 --> 00:48:50,360
Speaker 1: verge of of discovering technology that would give you even

741
00:48:50,400 --> 00:48:54,120
Speaker 1: more control, why the hell would you walk away? It's

742
00:48:53,840 --> 00:48:56,359
Speaker 1: it's a question that can't really be answered, and if

743
00:48:56,400 --> 00:49:00,000
Speaker 1: you dig into Operation mocking Bird you will you'll see

744
00:49:00,160 --> 00:49:04,640
Speaker 1: that it's still legally again an alleged operation, but there

745
00:49:04,760 --> 00:49:08,839
Speaker 1: is also there's no solid cut off tape other than

746
00:49:08,920 --> 00:49:13,440
Speaker 1: the like nineteen seventies statements, uh that that we mentioned

747
00:49:13,440 --> 00:49:16,040
Speaker 1: just a few minutes ago. You will not find an

748
00:49:16,040 --> 00:49:19,719
Speaker 1: official end for this thing because this thing doesn't officially

749
00:49:19,800 --> 00:49:22,719
Speaker 1: really exist. So this is where we leave it to you.

750
00:49:22,719 --> 00:49:25,799
Speaker 1: What do you think, folks, Operation mocking Bird. Is it

751
00:49:25,880 --> 00:49:29,960
Speaker 1: a small time conspiracy to hasslesome journalists? Was it a

752
00:49:30,040 --> 00:49:33,480
Speaker 1: deeper conspiracy to rule the mind of the public. Was

753
00:49:33,520 --> 00:49:37,680
Speaker 1: it a conspiracy that never actually ended? We'd love to

754
00:49:37,719 --> 00:49:40,040
Speaker 1: hear your thoughts. Yeah. You can reach us in the

755
00:49:40,120 --> 00:49:44,839
Speaker 1: usual ways on the internet at Facebook or we have

756
00:49:44,880 --> 00:49:47,640
Speaker 1: our Facebook group. Here's where it gets crazy. You can

757
00:49:47,680 --> 00:49:51,160
Speaker 1: also find us on Instagram and Twitter. It's some combination

758
00:49:51,239 --> 00:49:55,120
Speaker 1: of conspiracy stuff, conspiracy stuff show um. We also have

759
00:49:55,200 --> 00:49:58,799
Speaker 1: a telephone number that are good. Buddy Matt is kind

760
00:49:59,000 --> 00:50:02,040
Speaker 1: enough to sort of be the gate keeper of that's right.

761
00:50:02,600 --> 00:50:07,400
Speaker 1: Our number is one eight three three st d w

762
00:50:07,840 --> 00:50:11,680
Speaker 1: y t K. Leave a message we you know, we'll

763
00:50:11,719 --> 00:50:14,200
Speaker 1: hear it. Whatever you want. To say whether you want

764
00:50:14,200 --> 00:50:15,880
Speaker 1: to talk about this episode or when you want to

765
00:50:15,920 --> 00:50:18,640
Speaker 1: hear in the future or a past episode, or if

766
00:50:18,680 --> 00:50:21,560
Speaker 1: you want to talk about Knowle's awesome hats that he

767
00:50:21,600 --> 00:50:23,839
Speaker 1: wears on Instagram all the time, or that he's wearing

768
00:50:23,960 --> 00:50:28,120
Speaker 1: right now Ben sunglasses that he's wearing while recording an

769
00:50:28,120 --> 00:50:30,000
Speaker 1: episode of stuff. I want you to know because you

770
00:50:30,120 --> 00:50:32,480
Speaker 1: gotta be be a while you're making this show. I've

771
00:50:32,480 --> 00:50:35,960
Speaker 1: got a magic the gathering background on Zoom right now. Actually,

772
00:50:35,960 --> 00:50:39,000
Speaker 1: all of us have really nice psychedelic backgrounds right now.

773
00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:41,240
Speaker 1: Call us and talk to us about that. What should

774
00:50:41,239 --> 00:50:43,640
Speaker 1: we put in our background when we make these episodes?

775
00:50:44,480 --> 00:50:47,880
Speaker 1: Too much? Okay, let's move on. I think it's the

776
00:50:47,920 --> 00:50:50,680
Speaker 1: perfect amount. Do you hit the Goldilock zone with that one?

777
00:50:51,080 --> 00:50:54,400
Speaker 1: Old friends? Uh, but wait, you might be saying I

778
00:50:54,880 --> 00:50:58,920
Speaker 1: hate social media, I don't get it, or I I

779
00:50:59,000 --> 00:51:02,680
Speaker 1: hate Tyke can phone twenty but I have something important

780
00:51:02,719 --> 00:51:05,439
Speaker 1: that you or my fellow listeners need to hear. How

781
00:51:05,480 --> 00:51:07,719
Speaker 1: do I get in touch with you? Well, we have

782
00:51:07,840 --> 00:51:10,160
Speaker 1: good news for you, my friend. You can reach us

783
00:51:10,200 --> 00:51:14,040
Speaker 1: directly twenty four seven at our good old fashioned email

784
00:51:14,040 --> 00:51:37,160
Speaker 1: address where we are conspiracy at iHeart Radio dot com

785
00:51:37,280 --> 00:51:39,360
Speaker 1: stuff they don't want you to know. Is a production

786
00:51:39,440 --> 00:51:42,520
Speaker 1: of I heart Radio. For more podcasts from my heart Radio,

787
00:51:42,680 --> 00:51:45,520
Speaker 1: visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

788
00:51:45,600 --> 00:51:46,880
Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.