Speaker 1: Hi, Brian, Hi Katie. Well, you know, we had a
Speaker 1: whole other episode planned for this week and then breaking
Speaker 1: news interrupted, and so we're shifting gears today, that's right,
Speaker 1: and we're talking, of course, about the bombshell reports surrounding
Speaker 1: Hollywood mogul Harvey Weinstein. He allegedly sexually harassed and assaulted
Speaker 1: dozens and dozens of women over the course of decades.
Speaker 1: The New York Times first broke that story, and it's
Speaker 1: really made waves, especially as more details have emerged and
Speaker 1: more women have come forward. The drip, drip, drip has
Speaker 1: become a day luge of sorts, and it's opened up
Speaker 1: a much broader cultural conversation about sexual misconduct in general,
Speaker 1: what so many women continue to face in the workplace.
Speaker 1: And you know, I've been talking about this, Brian, by
Speaker 1: the way, for a long time, because one of my
Speaker 1: first big stories as a national reporter was covering the
Speaker 1: Clarence Thomas hearings. And I did the first interview with
Speaker 1: Anita Hill, and you think, wow, that was in the
Speaker 1: early nineties, and now here we are in two thousand seventeen,
Speaker 1: it's still happening. So we decided to continue the conversation
Speaker 1: and dive a little deeper with today's guest Gretchen Carlson
Speaker 1: and you. You may remember that in sixteen, Gretchen filed
Speaker 1: a sexual harassment lawsuit against the then all powerful chairman
Speaker 1: of Fox News, Roger Ales, and she alleged that while
Speaker 1: she was an anger at Fox, Ales made sexual advances
Speaker 1: toward her and then fired her. After she brought it
Speaker 1: to the network's attention, he was forced to resign. Gretchen
Speaker 1: got a report at twenty million dollars settlement, and since
Speaker 1: leaving Fox, she has decided to focus on advocacy rather
Speaker 1: than journalism, and she's out this week with a new
Speaker 1: book called b Fierce, Stop Harassment and Take Your Power Back. So,
Speaker 1: because of her legal settlement, there's a lot that Gretchen
Speaker 1: wasn't able to discussed in terms of the specifics of
Speaker 1: her case, But we spoke to her about sexual harassment
Speaker 1: and assault as a problem that's getting worse, not better
Speaker 1: in this society, about the advice that she'd give to women,
Speaker 1: as well as her own story her earliest days in
Speaker 1: the spotlight as Miss America. In fact, I think that's
Speaker 1: where Gretchen got the grace and grit required to really
Speaker 1: do something about her situation at Fox News. So we're
Speaker 1: having this conversation during a time when the hashtag me
Speaker 1: too has been flooding social media. You tweeted me to
Speaker 1: the night before we're taping this, Katie, and there's some
Speaker 1: disagreement about what that actually means. Right to me, I
Speaker 1: think it it's basically an all encompassing hashtag that signifies
Speaker 1: that you've experienced sexual harassment or even worse, sexual assault.
Speaker 1: And for me, obviously working for thirty five years, I've
Speaker 1: had incidents of sexual harassment and the work place. I
Speaker 1: don't have to get into details. You're gonna have to
Speaker 1: wait and buy the book. I'm glad we could do
Speaker 1: a little commerce in our intro here. We also, by
Speaker 1: the way, heard from many of you, so thank you
Speaker 1: so much to those who called in with your own
Speaker 1: stories of sexual harassment at work. We're gonna be sharing
Speaker 1: some of those calls during the break, so stay tuned
Speaker 1: for that. But first, here's Gretchen Carlson. Gretchen Carlson, I'm
Speaker 1: so excited to have you here in the studio. Brian
Speaker 1: is in Los Angeles and you're here on Gosh during
Speaker 1: a crazy period of time. I think for the subject
Speaker 1: that you're talking about in your book, it seems to
Speaker 1: be a really pivotal moment in the national discourse when
Speaker 1: it comes to this topic. When you saw this Harvey
Speaker 1: Weinstein stuff unfold, what were your thoughts. I wasn't surprised,
Speaker 1: but I actually, in spite of the horrific allegations and revelations,
Speaker 1: I actually was optimistic because it said to me that
Speaker 1: more and more women felt secure and coming forward. And
Speaker 1: that's the name of this game. You know. Unless we
Speaker 1: can encourage more and more women to have that kind
Speaker 1: of bravery, we're not going to get anywhere with this topic.
Speaker 1: And it made me realize that the fifteen months of
Speaker 1: work that I've been doing was possibly paying off, and
Speaker 1: that was incredibly um encouraging for me personally. Why weren't
Speaker 1: you surprised, Oh, because you know you've listen, you and
Speaker 1: I were. We've been in the television business for a
Speaker 1: long time, and then we've always heard the same things
Speaker 1: about Hollywood and the casting couch and that kind of behavior.
Speaker 1: But what I was surprised at when I first started
Speaker 1: putting together my book, or actually right after my story exploded,
Speaker 1: was all these women reaching out to me and what
Speaker 1: was surprising was that most of them, almost all of them,
Speaker 1: were not in television or Hollywood, and it made me
Speaker 1: realize that this is a pervasive epidemic in every profession,
Speaker 1: even female oriented professions like retail or flight attendants. So
Speaker 1: that's why I say the Hollywood stories not shocking. What
Speaker 1: was shocking is how pervasive this issue has penetrated our
Speaker 1: culture and we've done nothing about it until no. So, Gretchen,
Speaker 1: your new book, Your Fierce opens I love that title,
Speaker 1: by the way, opens on the day after Labor Day
Speaker 1: of you had sued your old boss, the former chairman
Speaker 1: of Fox News, Roger Ales, for harassment and retaliation. Um,
Speaker 1: and this was the day that the news broke about
Speaker 1: your settlement with Fox. That's the opening of the book.
Speaker 1: You're sitting in a nail salon and the news coverage
Speaker 1: starts rolling in. Can you describe that moment and what
Speaker 1: you were feeling. Yeah, So first day of school happened
Speaker 1: to be that same day. My husband and I have
Speaker 1: a tradition with our two children, twelve and fourteen, that
Speaker 1: we drive them to school, dropped them off, and then
Speaker 1: he and I would go into the city together because
Speaker 1: we both worked in the city for years, except this year.
Speaker 1: I had been fired, so I wasn't working, so that
Speaker 1: in and of itself was a change. And I knew
Speaker 1: that this that this news was going to be coming out.
Speaker 1: I wasn't supposed to come out until I believe maybe
Speaker 1: ten or eleven am, but I got to the city early.
Speaker 1: I was actually had a haircut appointment of all crazy things,
Speaker 1: and so I thought, well, what should I do with
Speaker 1: this extra hour? So there was a nail salon nearby,
Speaker 1: and one of the person in New York Cities getting
Speaker 1: their nails done at nine am nobody. So there I
Speaker 1: was in the nail salon all by myself and happened
Speaker 1: to be getting a pedicure, and the news started coming
Speaker 1: out on my phone and on Twitter and other social media,
Speaker 1: and tears were streaming down my face, not because I
Speaker 1: was sad, but because I was reading that the media
Speaker 1: was picking up on the apology and that meant so
Speaker 1: much to me. And I'm sure this woman who was
Speaker 1: helping me out was thinking I was nuts, you know, like,
Speaker 1: why is this woman crying on nine am on a
Speaker 1: Tuesday morning or whatever it was. But it was just
Speaker 1: so overwhelming, because it really was emblematic of my entire
Speaker 1: fight because there I was by myself, and that's how
Speaker 1: I started the fight, was by myself, which was really scary.
Speaker 1: And I know in the early days, Gretchen, I remember
Speaker 1: when all this happened. It seems to me that, you know,
Speaker 1: one of the things I heard almost immediately was her
Speaker 1: show was canceled, you know, uh and and and it
Speaker 1: was almost as if the victim blaming began instantaneously. Tell
Speaker 1: me about hearing things like that, and what that was
Speaker 1: like and how galling that must have been. Well, I
Speaker 1: was prepared for it because my attorneys had said that
Speaker 1: the you know, that they would come at me with
Speaker 1: a vengeance meaning a lot to people. Not that that
Speaker 1: makes it right, but um, I think I was prepared
Speaker 1: to take that on. I mean that was part of
Speaker 1: the courage building. This is not a process where you
Speaker 1: just decide one day, I think I'll do this. This
Speaker 1: is something that takes immense courage and it's an excruciating
Speaker 1: decision for women because of exactly what you're talking about
Speaker 1: that you know you're going to be labeled a troublemaker.
Speaker 1: Not believed, he said, She said, culture called, you know, worse,
Speaker 1: the v word and and worse than that, and and
Speaker 1: that your Christian will be destroyed. And it was so
Speaker 1: orchestrated by your former employer, right, I mean, it seems
Speaker 1: to me it was not just a comment here or there.
Speaker 1: It seemed to be almost like a political campaign in
Speaker 1: a way, kind of like, uh, what are you you know,
Speaker 1: opposition research? Right, Well, I can't comment on how they
Speaker 1: put their plan together, but I can just say that
Speaker 1: overwhelmly on social media. You know, there were some people
Speaker 1: who were critical of me, but the hashtag stand for
Speaker 1: Gretchen went viral and actually that was really heartening to
Speaker 1: me and buoyed my spirits because there were some dark
Speaker 1: days and dark moments in the beginning there, with no
Speaker 1: sleep and a lot of restless nights. In fact, Brian,
Speaker 1: as the lawyer in the group, you can ask Gretchen
Speaker 1: about just so we make it clear for our listeners
Speaker 1: what you can and cannot talk about when it comes
Speaker 1: to this situation, because I think we should be transparent
Speaker 1: about that. So take it away, counselor Well, there's actually
Speaker 1: an interesting topic to explore because as part of your settlement,
Speaker 1: it's been publicly reported you got paid twenty million dollars,
Speaker 1: and in exchange for that, you agreed not to talk
Speaker 1: about aspects of your case. And so I wondered whether
Speaker 1: you considered not signing a settlement so that you could
Speaker 1: in fact share all aspects of this case or was
Speaker 1: that just never even on the table. Oh no, sure,
Speaker 1: I mean, and I got asked that question a lot.
Speaker 1: But here's the reality that people don't know about. We
Speaker 1: as a society have decided that we solve sexual harassment
Speaker 1: cases usually in settlements or in forced arbitration, if that's
Speaker 1: in your employment contract. And here's the problem with both
Speaker 1: their secret and nobody ever knows any of the details,
Speaker 1: and the women cannot talk about what happened to them.
Speaker 1: And so for me, if I hadn't gone down that path,
Speaker 1: I would have been forced into secrecy anyway, and nobody
Speaker 1: would have really ever then known about about my case.
Speaker 1: So the way I answer that is my complaint is public.
Speaker 1: You can google it if you want to find out
Speaker 1: all the details. I don't really need to talk about
Speaker 1: the details because I have been afforded the opportunity within
Speaker 1: that settlement to be able to talk about this issue.
Speaker 1: And that's the way that I've been thinking for the
Speaker 1: last fifteen months is how do we move this forward.
Speaker 1: That's why I wrote the book Be Fierce, because how
Speaker 1: do I help people and move forward? And look, it's working.
Speaker 1: So that's why going back to the Weinstein revelations, I
Speaker 1: see that as a positive. I mean, they're horrific, but
Speaker 1: the reality is women and men are feeling more comfortable
Speaker 1: about coming forward. It really does feel like a watershed
Speaker 1: moment to me in many ways. You know, Unfortunately, there
Speaker 1: have been other things in the past that have felt
Speaker 1: like watershed moments. And I want to talk to you
Speaker 1: in a bit, Gretchen, about what sort of safeguards or
Speaker 1: structural changes can be put in place that will really
Speaker 1: make a difference once and for all. But we want
Speaker 1: to talk a little bit about sort of you and
Speaker 1: how you got here. You grew up in Minnesota, Minnesota,
Speaker 1: did I say, right? Yeah? Sure, and you've had You've
Speaker 1: had such an interesting journey from there. To hear it
Speaker 1: sounds like your parents were both pretty strict um by
Speaker 1: the book, and someone described your mom as a Swedish
Speaker 1: tiger mom, oh yeah, which I thought was so cute.
Speaker 1: What was life like you like for you as a child? Actually,
Speaker 1: I described her that way in my memoir, and she
Speaker 1: didn't really like it, but it was true. She sounds
Speaker 1: like quite the little powerhouse. And by the way, I
Speaker 1: shouldn't say little, she sounds like quite the powerhouse. Ye. Well,
Speaker 1: that's where I learned how to be fierce. Uh. And
Speaker 1: I actually talked about this a lot in the book.
Speaker 1: That's why I dedicated a chapter to parenting, because I
Speaker 1: really believe that, you know, gaining courage in your life
Speaker 1: and and having perseverance and tenacity starts at a young age,
Speaker 1: and it's it depends on how you're reared. And so
Speaker 1: first and foremost, she told me every day I could
Speaker 1: be anything I wanted to be. I thought every kid
Speaker 1: heard that, and I believed her. You know, she did
Speaker 1: have the caveat You're gonna have to work incredibly hard
Speaker 1: to get there. But that was a message that was
Speaker 1: ingrained in me. And so from an early age I
Speaker 1: built a lot of courage. Plus I was a really
Speaker 1: serious violinists, so I built incredible self confidence and courage
Speaker 1: from going out on stage and competing and performing and
Speaker 1: believing in myself. Because of that talent, nobody could take
Speaker 1: it away from me. Self disciplined to this is a
Speaker 1: ridiculous amount. Starting at age six, you did an hour
Speaker 1: a day, and then when you got a little bit older,
Speaker 1: it was three hours a day, something like three or
Speaker 1: four hours. Yeah, I know. It was something that I
Speaker 1: obviously loved until I got to be a teenager, and
Speaker 1: then I realized that to really succeed at the level
Speaker 1: that I wanted to succeed, and I'd have to give
Speaker 1: up everything else in my life. So that's when I quit,
Speaker 1: which was pretty devastating news to my parents at age seventeen.
Speaker 1: But it's it's disciplined that I still carry with me
Speaker 1: every single day, and it's the way in which I
Speaker 1: approach life that when you put time into something, you
Speaker 1: see that you get better at it. Well, and you
Speaker 1: quit that, but you you went on to Stanford and
Speaker 1: then you decided to compete to become Miss America. What
Speaker 1: what inspired you to do that? Yeah? Well I didn't
Speaker 1: actually decide to to try that. My mom actually tried
Speaker 1: to encourage me to do that. She got a rosure
Speaker 1: in the mail on the pageant ironically, and it said
Speaker 1: in the fine print fifty per of a contestant's points
Speaker 1: are based on talent, and she called me up I
Speaker 1: was actually studying at Oxford at the time, and she said,
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, I found something that I think you
Speaker 1: should try. She said, it's half your points are talent,
Speaker 1: you have that, you know, this is something you should do.
Speaker 1: And I'm like, mom, are you nuts? This is not
Speaker 1: on my radar screen at all? And I really had
Speaker 1: not watched pageants at all. It was a tomboy um
Speaker 1: so as I said, she's a very convincing person. Half
Speaker 1: your half your points or talent, but half your points
Speaker 1: or other things, you know, how you have baby suits
Speaker 1: and they had that part. I mean, so for me,
Speaker 1: as somebody who is ten years older than you are,
Speaker 1: it didn't take me long as a girl to realize
Speaker 1: pageants were just bullshit, honestly, and that they objectified women.
Speaker 1: You know, it's nice at is talent, and obviously you're
Speaker 1: enormously talented, you know, much more talented than like people
Speaker 1: who play things with spoons or whatever, some of the
Speaker 1: other frenriloquist or whatever. And I'm just curious, like, was
Speaker 1: there something inside of you, Gretchen that said, you know what, honestly,
Speaker 1: this is not this is not for me, This is
Speaker 1: really not who I am, And this is not what
Speaker 1: I want to convey to other women. Yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: I felt that way. I guess more after the fact,
Speaker 1: I went back to Stanford and took some feminism classes. UM,
Speaker 1: and I've always been a huge advocate for women. So
Speaker 1: you know, I guess you could argue that those two
Speaker 1: things didn't ALIGNE but you know, you have to also
Speaker 1: remember that it is a scholarship program. I want a
Speaker 1: lot of scholarship money. I paid for my entire last
Speaker 1: year of Stanford by myself based on my winnings from
Speaker 1: Miss America. UM. I have been an advocate for a
Speaker 1: long time of getting rid of the swimsuit portion and
Speaker 1: for me, that was the toughest part because I'm short
Speaker 1: and uh, I really had to struggle to get myself
Speaker 1: into decent shape. So that was actually the most challenging
Speaker 1: part for me. And I don't necessarily see that as
Speaker 1: a negative, that you set a goal in front of
Speaker 1: yourself and and you go for it and you feel
Speaker 1: good about the end result. Would you want your daughter
Speaker 1: to compete in a beauty count totally her decision. I
Speaker 1: don't believe at all in pageants for young kids. I mean,
Speaker 1: I shuddered to think these parents that are dress and
Speaker 1: their kids up and three and four and five and
Speaker 1: six and ten and twelve year olds. My daughter's fourteen. Now,
Speaker 1: she happens to be an exceptional pianist. If she wants
Speaker 1: to do it, I have no idea if she does
Speaker 1: or not. I'll have a conversation with her about it.
Speaker 1: But you also have to remember, I'm the mom who
Speaker 1: never even told my kids that I was Miss America.
Speaker 1: And one day I was waiting for this day to come.
Speaker 1: And she came home from school when she was about
Speaker 1: eight years old, maybe nine. She said, mom, She said,
Speaker 1: somebody at school told me you were some America thing.
Speaker 1: And I said, ah, I've been waiting for this day.
Speaker 1: She said, well, Mommy, could I see you know the crown?
Speaker 1: And I said, well, yeah, let me see if I
Speaker 1: can find it in my closet. So we went upstairs
Speaker 1: and I showed her the crown and she put it on.
Speaker 1: And then I had my gown in a shoe box
Speaker 1: and um and and I showed her that, and she
Speaker 1: she put it onto and we took pictures, and then
Speaker 1: that was that. I said, Mommy did this because mommy
Speaker 1: played the violin and you played the piano. And you
Speaker 1: know this is something mommy accomplished and it was the
Speaker 1: end of the story. And I don't even know if
Speaker 1: I've ever had the conversation with my son, to be
Speaker 1: honest with you. Um So, it's not like I display
Speaker 1: my Miss American life at home or talk about it
Speaker 1: or I think my daughter should be a pageant person
Speaker 1: in any stretch of the imagination. Do they really use
Speaker 1: like preparation? H somewhere did that stuff? I'm from, Katie.
Speaker 1: Are there some tricks like preparation or isn't there something
Speaker 1: that you put on like a spray? I still wont
Speaker 1: without doing any of that craft. Um so. And yeah,
Speaker 1: I never believed in in doing that. Here's here's what
Speaker 1: I learned from it, though. Uh. I learned guts from
Speaker 1: being Miss America and also how to speak publicly without
Speaker 1: any apprehension or nerves. I mean, I'll never forget. In
Speaker 1: the first week, I was at some huge event in Atlanta.
Speaker 1: Two thousand people thought I was just there to have dinner.
Speaker 1: Guy comes up to me after dinner before jissert. He goes,
Speaker 1: I just wanted to give you a five minute before
Speaker 1: your keynote. I said, excuse me, He said, yeah, you're keynote,
Speaker 1: I said, okay, I said, in how long would you
Speaker 1: like me to speak? He goes, just forty five minutes.
Speaker 1: So I went in the bathroom with a cocktail napkin
Speaker 1: and a pencil that I borrowed from somebody else at
Speaker 1: the table, and I wrote down a couple of bullet points,
Speaker 1: and I went out and I gave a speech for
Speaker 1: forty five minutes. So you know, Lesson number one, always
Speaker 1: have three speeches in your back pocket. Lessen number two,
Speaker 1: My gosh, look at what I gained from that year
Speaker 1: of being put in those unbelievably adult situations at age two.
Speaker 1: So it's not Pageants are not all bad, Katie. No,
Speaker 1: I know, I know. I think I'm just like I
Speaker 1: could never have entered one. Maybe I have pageant envy
Speaker 1: or something. But you know, you played the violin in
Speaker 1: the Miss America competition. So let's listen for a second,
Speaker 1: uh to Gretchen playing what were you playing? Gretchen Yan
Speaker 1: Gypsy airs, God Bless you, Zagunavis and a violin performance
Speaker 1: by Gretchen. Elizabeth Carl said, Miss Minnesota, you're a sucker
Speaker 1: for that vibrato, aren't you. Yeah, it feels like it
Speaker 1: was yesterday, not really. By the way, you have a
Speaker 1: beautiful green bow in your hair, which I understand you
Speaker 1: made from the bottom of your dress. Is that true
Speaker 1: resourceful to ladies and gentlemen are frugal in Minnesota? I did,
Speaker 1: and the bow actually was falling out of my hair
Speaker 1: while I was performing before millions of people. And I
Speaker 1: also a secret fact I had a hairpiece in and
Speaker 1: so I've been thinking to myself while I'm performing in
Speaker 1: front of millions of people and trying to win this thing,
Speaker 1: I'm thinking, Okay, this will be really awful if this
Speaker 1: green piece falls out and the hairpiece falls out, but
Speaker 1: will look like a whirl on the stage. So that's
Speaker 1: what was actually going through my mind as I was.
Speaker 1: Oh and before I went out to do the swimsuit competition,
Speaker 1: I got my period. Oh lord yeah, Bryan Mosuh well sorry,
Speaker 1: it's more than more than I knew. Yeah, So I
Speaker 1: was like, anyone have any emergency help please. I had
Speaker 1: about two seconds to do the clothing change anyway, So
Speaker 1: these are all the things that make you a stronger person. Well,
Speaker 1: I have to say, you know, that kind of poise
Speaker 1: is unusual, because shortly after that they did play a
Speaker 1: funny joke on you. Gary Collins and Marianne Mobley, Uh
Speaker 1: where you were on some NBC blooper show. They left,
Speaker 1: I guess the set of their talk show, and you
Speaker 1: were told you had to to stall and kind of
Speaker 1: talk about a satellite system I knew nothing about. I mean,
Speaker 1: the fact that you kept your act together was really
Speaker 1: I noticed. I wanted to say something else, right, Trust me,
Speaker 1: I wanted to say all those words while I was
Speaker 1: standing up there. It was just I mean, I think
Speaker 1: gets worth anyone watching how I was so pitted out
Speaker 1: just watching you because I guess I'm thinking about all
Speaker 1: these really stressful moments. Yeah, this is what builds courage,
Speaker 1: um and and character. But yeah, that was a week
Speaker 1: into being Miss America, and all I could think of
Speaker 1: is they're going to fire me from this job because
Speaker 1: I thought I was talking about its satellite system I
Speaker 1: knew nothing about in front of five thousand engineers in
Speaker 1: d C. And they probably knew everything about it, right,
Speaker 1: And Gary and Marianne got called off the set for emergencies,
Speaker 1: and then they said we're coming to you in five
Speaker 1: four three two. Remember who knows absolutely nothing about the system,
Speaker 1: and you and I can appreciate this from live TV.
Speaker 1: And they go just just start talking, and I was like,
Speaker 1: about what, you know what? So I introduced myself. Hi,
Speaker 1: I'm glad to be back with you this morning. I'm
Speaker 1: Gretchen Carlson, the new Miss America and this is my
Speaker 1: second appearance here in Denver and it's been wonderful so far.
Speaker 1: And I gave my little Miss America speel and then
Speaker 1: I stopped, and he goes, oh no, no, keep going,
Speaker 1: keep keeping. If you want to talk talk about the
Speaker 1: machine a little bit, whatever you can remember about it,
Speaker 1: just it doesn't matter, even if you don't know I
Speaker 1: Standwarches well. Today Gary, Gary and Marianne are supposed to
Speaker 1: be here with me, and they're going to be discussing
Speaker 1: the intricate details details about the system. My only directions
Speaker 1: are to press a few of these buttons. So this
Speaker 1: one on for fourteen minutes, and literally in my brain again,
Speaker 1: I'm thinking I'm going to be, you know, fired from
Speaker 1: this job. And I have to say that, you know,
Speaker 1: life works in mysterious ways, and this is a great
Speaker 1: lesson for anyone about struggle and how you perceive yourself
Speaker 1: and how it can change on a dime. So when
Speaker 1: that actually aired, that's how I got into TV. I
Speaker 1: know someone saw you and thought. A couple agents saw
Speaker 1: it and they called me and they said, if you
Speaker 1: can do that, you can do TV. We're going to
Speaker 1: take a quick break. We'll be back soon with more
Speaker 1: from Gretchen and hear about her path into TV news
Speaker 1: after her days as Miss America. But first a word
Speaker 1: from our sponsors and from you. Sexual harassment doesn't just
Speaker 1: happen to powerful people. It's not just committed by powerful people.
Speaker 1: It happens across industries, two people from all walks of life.
Speaker 1: So many of you called in with testimony of your
Speaker 1: own experiences, from big box store employees to auto plant workers.
Speaker 1: Here's some of what you had to say. When I
Speaker 1: was seventeen, UM, I went for a job and the
Speaker 1: person interviewing me put his hand on my leg and
Speaker 1: robbed it and I did not accept job because of that.
Speaker 1: I was sexually harassed by the CEO of our company.
Speaker 1: I had told him my head had so much coffee
Speaker 1: that morning. I said, I can actually feel my insights
Speaker 1: vibrating and he said, oh really, I thought that Miss,
Speaker 1: maybe a sex toy in your purse. When I accorded
Speaker 1: it to h R. HR came back to me and
Speaker 1: told me that I kind of uh participated in the
Speaker 1: conversation when my boss and I because we had become
Speaker 1: friends and he wanted to know if I had any
Speaker 1: friends that I could hook him up with that he
Speaker 1: could date. UM. So h R said that I had
Speaker 1: kind of instigated the conversation. Um. I was then fired
Speaker 1: two days later, and UM, yeah, and lost my job
Speaker 1: because of it. He was the assistant principal of my school.
Speaker 1: I was the first year teacher. I was afraid to
Speaker 1: tell him no. I was a manager at one of
Speaker 1: the big box stores and I was the only female
Speaker 1: black manager. My head manager had a problem with lesbian
Speaker 1: women that we had working for us. He made lots
Speaker 1: of comments about them being lesbians and this and that,
Speaker 1: and I reported him, even though I was straight. I
Speaker 1: reported him to the corporate department. The corporate people came,
Speaker 1: they took the reports, and from then on, every time
Speaker 1: we were on a monthly conference call, he used to
Speaker 1: just go after me. Um. My company that I work
Speaker 1: for is terrible with sexual harassment. They think it's not
Speaker 1: a big deal. Boys will be boys. Terrible things have
Speaker 1: happened here, from pictures of people's private parts being shown
Speaker 1: to women to people commenting about whether or not you
Speaker 1: had a boob job, etcetera, etcetera. This is at an
Speaker 1: auto planet free un California, Gorge of California. It's a
Speaker 1: Friday night, almost time to leave. Crabs your hands, put
Speaker 1: some lout her grasp for the minute you just melt
Speaker 1: that you Oh my god, what happened? You know? I
Speaker 1: sweeps you off your feet. You can't believe it, but
Speaker 1: it's it was very real. When I was out of college,
Speaker 1: at my first job in the business world, I experienced
Speaker 1: some sexual harassment, just inappropriate UM, sexual behavior by one
Speaker 1: of the executives where I worked. UM. I had a
Speaker 1: witness to it. I reported it to my boss, who
Speaker 1: was wonderful, and he actually asked several of the other women,
Speaker 1: uh and they corroborated. They had their own stories to
Speaker 1: share as well, and eventually the harasser was fired. But
Speaker 1: you know, it's a very isolating experience and that's very scary. UM.
Speaker 1: But you know, we're not alone. Thanks so much again
Speaker 1: to everyone who called in. You know, Katie, this conversation
Speaker 1: with Gretchen Carlson reminds me of some of our previous
Speaker 1: episodes where we've had trailblazing women. And in fact, if
Speaker 1: you liked this episode, wait there's more, I think you'd
Speaker 1: also like our chat from August. That's episode number thirty
Speaker 1: seven with Avia di Verney. I love Eva. She is
Speaker 1: so a comp place. You're gonna be hearing a lot
Speaker 1: more about her very soon with a wrinkle in Time.
Speaker 1: Or how about our discussion from back in April with
Speaker 1: Cheryl Sandberg That is episode And of course, Julia Louis
Speaker 1: Dreyfuss was one of our first guests way back in
Speaker 1: episode four and one of my favorites. And not just
Speaker 1: to name a few that are worth checking out, but
Speaker 1: for now, back to our conversation with Gretchen Carlson. To
Speaker 1: fast forward a little bit, you you work for some
Speaker 1: local stations from there, then CBS News, then Fox, which
Speaker 1: was started to be an ideological counterbalance to the mainstream media.
Speaker 1: Were you at the time attracted to the idea of
Speaker 1: a pro Republican network. No, I was attracted to my
Speaker 1: life dream, which was to do a morning show Monday
Speaker 1: through Friday. I didn't want to listen to my mom anymore,
Speaker 1: asked me why I didn't smile more when I was
Speaker 1: covering murders and fires in local news, which is what
Speaker 1: she would do when I'd send the tape. People need
Speaker 1: to really get to know you, Gretchen. You know you
Speaker 1: have a funny side, you have you know, you have
Speaker 1: this all this other that you can offer, and you
Speaker 1: can't do that while you're just reporting the news. And
Speaker 1: I'm like, yeah, but I'm getting experience, mom, which I
Speaker 1: really really need. So my my goal always in in
Speaker 1: television was to be able to do um, you know
Speaker 1: what Katie did Monday Monday through Friday National Morning Show
Speaker 1: and have the ability to show my chops in hard
Speaker 1: news and also my fun side. It's really a nice
Speaker 1: format for people who have a personality because you can
Speaker 1: do serious journalism and really, you know, put someone in
Speaker 1: the hot seat and then you can have a lot
Speaker 1: of fun and interact with your co hosts. And but
Speaker 1: that was challenging for you. Tell me a little bit
Speaker 1: about your experience doing that show. It's funny because I
Speaker 1: know you worked with someone named Steve Doocey, who I
Speaker 1: worked with at the NBC O and O in Washington,
Speaker 1: d C. And you can talk about it and I can't.
Speaker 1: You can't talk about it, But can you talk about
Speaker 1: sort of the atmosphere in general of doing that show?
Speaker 1: You're not allowed to talk about any of that anyway, Well,
Speaker 1: never mind, sorry, Roger Ales. Obviously, the head of Fox
Speaker 1: News was known as a very tough and temperamental boss.
Speaker 1: Can you talk about when his treatment of you started
Speaker 1: to cross the line or do we have to read
Speaker 1: the complaint for that? Yeah, it's all in the complaint. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I can't. I can't talk about my experience there at all.
Speaker 1: But I think based on all the news stories that
Speaker 1: have come out since my story broke, it's pretty apparent
Speaker 1: and out there. We can read from the book though,
Speaker 1: right of course it's just from Brian. Do you want
Speaker 1: to read from from be Fear? So we don't put
Speaker 1: Gretchen in that weird situation. Before you do that, though,
Speaker 1: we have this audio clip from Fox and Friends. Gretchen, Okay,
Speaker 1: let's just listen to it and see if you can
Speaker 1: comment in any way, shape or form. Last night and
Speaker 1: some guy came up and he said, I saw you
Speaker 1: have Fox and Friends this morning. Is Gretchen as cute
Speaker 1: in person as she is onto you? And what did
Speaker 1: you answer America beautiful dressing look wonderful? Was that sort
Speaker 1: of par for the course? Um, I can't. I can't
Speaker 1: talk about it. I think it speaks for itself. Again,
Speaker 1: I don't need to say anything about it. So it
Speaker 1: has been reported and and Gretchen said this that when
Speaker 1: she joined the network in two thousand five, Ale suggested
Speaker 1: that she wear tight fitting outfits. Um. When Gretchen complained
Speaker 1: to her supervisor about Steve Doocey, who she said condescended
Speaker 1: to her on and off the air, Ales responded that
Speaker 1: she was a man hater and a killer who needed
Speaker 1: to get along with the boys. And after this conversation,
Speaker 1: Gretchen said that her role on the show diminished, that
Speaker 1: she was demoted, and ultimately she was terminated. But before then,
Speaker 1: she um, she turned the tables on Roger Ales. I
Speaker 1: know you can't comment on this, but with your iPhone
Speaker 1: you recorded meetings with him in his office. And the
Speaker 1: famous quote was Ailes saying to you, I think you
Speaker 1: and I should have had a sexual relationship a long
Speaker 1: time ago, and then you'd be good and better and
Speaker 1: I'd be good and better. Sometimes problems are easier to
Speaker 1: solve that way. So that was all pretty stunning and appalling,
Speaker 1: and it's a it's a little challenging that you can't
Speaker 1: comment on it, but at the very least our listeners
Speaker 1: ought to know. Um. You quote in the book Lisa Bloom,
Speaker 1: who has represented women for over thirty years, saying that
Speaker 1: of all the women I know who publicly complained, not
Speaker 1: one is working in her chosen career today. And in fact,
Speaker 1: ste you do see is still on Fox. You know,
Speaker 1: these women are labeled as as troublemakers. Gretchen, do you
Speaker 1: think that broader problem of women losing their jobs blaming
Speaker 1: the victim can be fixed? Yeah? I mean, wouldn't it
Speaker 1: be fantastic with all the attention on this issue right now,
Speaker 1: in a national dialogue about it more than ever before,
Speaker 1: wouldn't it be great if corporations decided to hire these
Speaker 1: people back? You know, that would be a step in
Speaker 1: the right direction. I mean, who deserves to have the
Speaker 1: American dream taken away from them because of some random jerk.
Speaker 1: That's what's happening. And the thousands of women who reached
Speaker 1: out to me, Um, the majority are not working in
Speaker 1: their in their chosen field anymore. And that's outrageous, And
Speaker 1: this is why we need to all be a part
Speaker 1: of the solution. And I'm talking not only men and women.
Speaker 1: I'm talking Republicans and Democrats. That's why I've been I've
Speaker 1: been so active on Capitol Hill in the last year
Speaker 1: trying to get this bill introduced that would take the
Speaker 1: secrecy out of these forced arbitration clauses. It's a baby step,
Speaker 1: but at least it would try to even out the
Speaker 1: pendulum of power. Right now, the employer is sitting way
Speaker 1: up here knowing that anything that happens in the workplace
Speaker 1: is secret. Isn't that a great thing for them? And
Speaker 1: the employee who may have a dispute has no hour
Speaker 1: and can never tell anyone about it. Ever, you testified
Speaker 1: on Capitol Hill. I think Al Franken I did press
Speaker 1: conference with him. Testifying has not yet happened. But I
Speaker 1: am optimistic because I've been having so many private meetings
Speaker 1: with Republicans. Democrats are already on board with this issue.
Speaker 1: But I am optimistic because I've had so many private
Speaker 1: meetings um with Republicans that I Am going to get
Speaker 1: this bipartisan bill to happen. How difficult is it, given
Speaker 1: the kind of behavior we saw from the president during
Speaker 1: the campaign and and perhaps allegedly in the months and
Speaker 1: years before he decided to run. Sure, I think it
Speaker 1: sends mixed messages to our culture, There's no doubt about that.
Speaker 1: I actually featured Natasha Stoynof in my book Be Fierce.
Speaker 1: She was one of the Trump accusers who worked for
Speaker 1: People magazine, and her story is complete in my book. So,
Speaker 1: you know, I think what was fascinating about all those
Speaker 1: women that had the bravery to come forward before he
Speaker 1: was elected was that their stories were published and then
Speaker 1: they just sort of disappeared as well, right, not not
Speaker 1: the women, but the stories, and that that goes to
Speaker 1: show you how we treat this issue in our culture.
Speaker 1: It was like, Okay, well they made those allegations. I guess, oh, well,
Speaker 1: we haven't heard from them recently, so I guess we'll
Speaker 1: just move on. And and that was not a watershed moment.
Speaker 1: That was not a tipping point moment moment. So what
Speaker 1: do I think about the videotape. I think it was awful.
Speaker 1: I thought it was some of the worst human behavior
Speaker 1: that I've ever heard in my life talking about Hollywood tape.
Speaker 1: And you know, I'm sure that millions of other parents,
Speaker 1: like myself, were faced with the same thing to grapple with.
Speaker 1: The day that came out and the days that followed,
Speaker 1: is what the hell do I tell my kids? And
Speaker 1: that became an issue, you know, in our household. And
Speaker 1: it was personal for me because my story had just happened,
Speaker 1: So it was extremely personal. And and I took it
Speaker 1: as a teachable moment for my kids and had them
Speaker 1: watch it and listen to it and told them this
Speaker 1: is not how you treat another human being. I think
Speaker 1: what was shocking and appalling for people, though, was it
Speaker 1: didn't seem to matter among some members of the electorate.
Speaker 1: You know, a lot of people felt you know, repulsed
Speaker 1: by it, but other people really seemed to brush it
Speaker 1: off as quote unquote locker room talk. That's such an
Speaker 1: overused excuse. It's like boys will be boys, and you know,
Speaker 1: or in the Harvey Weinstein story, while he was a
Speaker 1: you know, a product of the sixties and seventies, Nah,
Speaker 1: my grandparents didn't treat yet treat each other that way.
Speaker 1: They were born in the nineteen hundreds. Um, my dad
Speaker 1: doesn't treat my mom that way, and he's eighty three
Speaker 1: and my mom's seventy six, So you know, those are
Speaker 1: just all lame excuses to try to pass the buck
Speaker 1: and not really delve into the issue at hand. Well,
Speaker 1: and perversely, the grabbed him by the pussy comment may
Speaker 1: have helped UM because it was so memorable and so
Speaker 1: striking that it obscured all of the allegations of behavior,
Speaker 1: not just talk. The miss us A contestant who said
Speaker 1: that she was assaulted, the woman who said that he
Speaker 1: groped her on a plane, the People magazine writer that
Speaker 1: you mentioned who said that she was assaulted at maral Lago,
Speaker 1: ironically while writing a profile about his happy marriage. UM,
Speaker 1: the miss ten USA contestants, and and all that people
Speaker 1: seem to remember is that one tape which could be
Speaker 1: dismissed as locker room talk. Although you know, as my
Speaker 1: father and his sixties said, he's been in a lot
Speaker 1: of locker rooms and he's never heard that kind of talk.
Speaker 1: I think a lot of professional athletes said the same. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I mean I'm married to a sports agent. He
Speaker 1: also said the same, And I love sports and I've
Speaker 1: been in my share flocker rooms as well, and not
Speaker 1: quite heard that. Again, this is just this is an excuse,
Speaker 1: but you know, for well, to be fair to Trump's voters,
Speaker 1: or at least some of Trump's voters, many of them
Speaker 1: said that these comments bothered them. It wasn't that these
Speaker 1: comments were okay. It was that they voted for him anyway,
Speaker 1: based on other issues or dislike of Hillary Clinton or
Speaker 1: whatever it was. I mean, I there was a stat
Speaker 1: in the exit poll that I think se of the
Speaker 1: electorate thought that he didn't have the experience in the
Speaker 1: temperament to be president, and yet he got of the vote. Well,
Speaker 1: that's what I was saying in the beginning that and
Speaker 1: I wrote a New York Times bet about this right
Speaker 1: after the election, which was I guess that as a
Speaker 1: society then we decided that political policies did supersede human decency.
Speaker 1: Let's talk about some of the women who are featured
Speaker 1: in your book and some of the things that you learned,
Speaker 1: the common threads among the stories, what struck you the most?
Speaker 1: I know you said that it happens to everyone, all ages,
Speaker 1: at all levels of their careers. Um, what were some
Speaker 1: of the common threads among the women you profiled and
Speaker 1: heard from The pain and the shame and the agony.
Speaker 1: And I would just wait for it. After a while,
Speaker 1: when I started talking to all of them where they
Speaker 1: would say the boys club, that just became a common phrase.
Speaker 1: And that was so shocking to me because I just
Speaker 1: really believed in two thousand seventeen that we had overcome that.
Speaker 1: But they all used that that term. I mean some
Speaker 1: of them their experience had happened a long time ago,
Speaker 1: but a lot of them it was going on right now.
Speaker 1: I mean I feature in the book cases that are
Speaker 1: still being adjudicated right now. So uh, it was interesting
Speaker 1: that that has not changed over time. Maybe more than interesting,
Speaker 1: it was tragic, and so many other common threads about
Speaker 1: how the minute that they complained, they were retaliated against,
Speaker 1: and not just by men, but by other colleagues who
Speaker 1: are women in their businesses. And this brings me to
Speaker 1: the huge unanswered questions with this issue. I've been working
Speaker 1: so hard on trying to answer so many of the
Speaker 1: other questions and move this ball forward, but this is
Speaker 1: the question that troubles me every night. Why as a
Speaker 1: culture and society do we protect harassers. I don't know
Speaker 1: why yet, but I have found that it's not just
Speaker 1: protecting harassers who are the top money makers within the company.
Speaker 1: I have countless stories in the book from women whose
Speaker 1: harassers were low level male employees and the company still
Speaker 1: protected them, so it wasn't like we got to protect
Speaker 1: the CEO. Have you talked to people who are in
Speaker 1: positions of responsibility and power at companies to get some
Speaker 1: insight from them about sort of the corporate culture or
Speaker 1: the company culture that would in fact side with someone.
Speaker 1: Is it because it's there's so much built in sexism,
Speaker 1: or is it expensive? You know, there must be an
Speaker 1: explanation for it culturally and maybe perhaps financially. Nobody on
Speaker 1: the record is going to tell you that, but I
Speaker 1: wonder if you could get former CEOs or former human
Speaker 1: resources people that might be interesting. Yeah, I mean, I
Speaker 1: actually advocate in the book my progressive ideas for how
Speaker 1: to handle this issue better in the workplace to help
Speaker 1: move the ball forward. For example, maybe HR isn't the
Speaker 1: right place to go and complain because you have to
Speaker 1: remember that that HR representatives are getting paid by potentially
Speaker 1: the harasser, and so is that the right mechanism for
Speaker 1: which women and men should go to complain. So I
Speaker 1: advocate in the book that it might be worthy for
Speaker 1: companies to consider having an ambusman of sorts, where it's
Speaker 1: an independent person, where people really feel like they can
Speaker 1: go to somebody who's not going to retaliate against them. Right. So,
Speaker 1: there are a lot of other things I advocate for
Speaker 1: in the book, including bystander training and turning them into allies.
Speaker 1: That's that's where we need you. And looking at you, Brian,
Speaker 1: Brian or male friend, we need we need male to
Speaker 1: males to become allies and not just bystanders. And by
Speaker 1: the way, this shouldn't be on the shoulders of women
Speaker 1: only to solve this, should we need men in the fight. Uh,
Speaker 1: it's really actually more of a man's issue than it
Speaker 1: is a women's issue. It just turns out that the
Speaker 1: women are the ones who end up not working anymore well.
Speaker 1: In fact, in the book you have a lot of
Speaker 1: practical advice for both women and men to make this better.
Speaker 1: Um at a time when you started a report that
Speaker 1: shows worthplace harassments actually getting worse, which is hard to
Speaker 1: believe in this day and age. I know I was
Speaker 1: shocked by that. And that's that's only the cases that
Speaker 1: are reported of people do not report anything, so imagine
Speaker 1: how bad it really is. Can you run through some
Speaker 1: of the advice that you would share with people about
Speaker 1: you know, what to do if they're harassed to prevent harassment,
Speaker 1: and what men should do in all of this. So
Speaker 1: chapter four is actually my playbook, which is a twelve
Speaker 1: point plan, and I really see it as a guide
Speaker 1: book if you are actually going through harassment at work
Speaker 1: right now, or just to hold on too, just in
Speaker 1: case you too, ever unfortunately go through it. But I'll
Speaker 1: just touch on a couple of the highlights, which is,
Speaker 1: I think the most important thing is to call an
Speaker 1: attorney first and foremost. I don't know, Brian, if you've
Speaker 1: given out your number, but you know you have to call.
Speaker 1: You have to call an attorney, just even for ten minutes,
Speaker 1: and and just to say, here's what's happening to me.
Speaker 1: What should I do? Do I have a case? And
Speaker 1: the first thing they're gonna ask you is do you
Speaker 1: have an arbitration class. That's going to be the first thing,
Speaker 1: because then that's going to mean your muzzled. And and
Speaker 1: so you know, this is why I'm doing so much
Speaker 1: work on Capitol Hill, because we've gotta get rid of that.
Speaker 1: I was gonna say, it's not as if you can
Speaker 1: say hey, by the way, i'd love to come work
Speaker 1: for you. Can you get rid of the arbitration? You
Speaker 1: can't know, I know, But then they're gonna be like, yeah, thanks,
Speaker 1: have a nice day, I know, good luck. So this
Speaker 1: is why we need to attack it from the other way.
Speaker 1: So that's the first thing. Call a lawyer. Second, document, document,
Speaker 1: document right down when it's happening to you, what happened,
Speaker 1: journal and keep it at home, Keep every email, text card,
Speaker 1: any piece of evidence. Um. And then tell at least
Speaker 1: two trusted colleagues, because if you don't have witnesses and
Speaker 1: we're still in the he said, she said culture, then
Speaker 1: you're probably not going to be believed. But especially if
Speaker 1: you tell a male colleague and they come to your defense,
Speaker 1: I think that makes all the difference in the world.
Speaker 1: Those are three of my my twelve points. Um. So
Speaker 1: people will have to check out the book to to
Speaker 1: see the entire playbook. But but it's essential that you
Speaker 1: have this plan because I think what women typically do
Speaker 1: is because I think we have to work harder to
Speaker 1: get ahead in the workplace in general, when we're faced
Speaker 1: with this kind of a circumstance, we think we can
Speaker 1: overcome it. Because we've overcome so many other things, and
Speaker 1: so we just push it off and keep working harder
Speaker 1: and thinking it will change. And then one day we're like, well,
Speaker 1: we can't take it anymore, and we might go and
Speaker 1: file a complaint. And then the problem is you can't
Speaker 1: put the genie back in the bottle and you don't
Speaker 1: have a plan, and now you're literally screwed. I mean
Speaker 1: because you can't go back and document, You can't go
Speaker 1: back and gather evidence. You can't call an attorney and
Speaker 1: say what should I do. You can't start telling trusted colleagues,
Speaker 1: so now all that stuff. You can't save your performance
Speaker 1: reviews in case you're retaliated against to see how they
Speaker 1: might start changing. Now, this is why the plan is
Speaker 1: is so important for women and men to have and
Speaker 1: then decide what they want to use or what they don't.
Speaker 1: You have to be smart and protect yourself. Yes, Gretchen,
Speaker 1: what do you say to people who point out that
Speaker 1: you wrote some warm words about Roger Ales in your
Speaker 1: first book, which was a couple of years ago, and
Speaker 1: and wonder why you did that, and also why it
Speaker 1: took you so long to come forward and report his
Speaker 1: harassment against you. Well, in general, I can just say
Speaker 1: that it's a classic sign of somebody who's going through
Speaker 1: sexual harassment to do everything in their power to try
Speaker 1: and improve their situation in the workplace, and that includes
Speaker 1: writing flowery and smiley face notes, because as I just mentioned,
Speaker 1: women in particular think that the harder they work, the
Speaker 1: better the situation will become, and that you can overcome it,
Speaker 1: and so you will do everything in your power to
Speaker 1: try and make your life better. Number Two, why this
Speaker 1: is the number one myth that I write about in
Speaker 1: the book. Why did you just not come forward sooner?
Speaker 1: And I mean, I think we've talked about this. It's
Speaker 1: an excruciating choice because you know what's going to probably
Speaker 1: happen to you in the workplace, troublemaker, demoted, possibly fired,
Speaker 1: and culturally as well. It's not just in the workplace,
Speaker 1: it's how are people going to perceive you on the outside.
Speaker 1: And this is what we need to change, And this
Speaker 1: is what I feel like we're moving towards changing now
Speaker 1: with more and more people coming out and and this
Speaker 1: becoming a national dialogue for the last ten days to
Speaker 1: two weeks, and still we're talking about it. That's good.
Speaker 1: That starts to make these changes so that we flip
Speaker 1: it one degrees from being a troublemaker to being a hero.
Speaker 1: You know, that's really how we should be looking at
Speaker 1: these situations. Do you worry about the backlash? It seems
Speaker 1: to me the pendulum swings repeatedly and then so many
Speaker 1: people are coming forward, so many people are standing up,
Speaker 1: so many people are using the hashtag me too. Do
Speaker 1: you worry that then suddenly people are, like I saw
Speaker 1: today Woody Allen not sure if he's the best person
Speaker 1: to be quoting on this fear as a witch hunt.
Speaker 1: He's irrelevant on this, right, But I'm just saying that
Speaker 1: I think some people probably are concerned that it's going
Speaker 1: to be too much. How do you find some kind
Speaker 1: of balance where there isn't a backlash? No, actually, I
Speaker 1: don't see the backlash happening In my own personal experience.
Speaker 1: I've seen it actually curb the social media trolls that
Speaker 1: have been coming after me, because well, first of all,
Speaker 1: it's always fun to call out a few of them,
Speaker 1: but also, you know, to say, this is exactly what
Speaker 1: the problem is, that we're battling these people like this.
Speaker 1: But number two, I think that the more and more
Speaker 1: people that are speaking out. It makes the trolls voices
Speaker 1: less significant, and even somewhere in their pea brains they
Speaker 1: are determining, oh my gosh, maybe I won't tweet this
Speaker 1: right because so many people are tweeting support that suddenly
Speaker 1: they're on their the back of their heels. That's been
Speaker 1: my experience over the last ten days. I feel like
Speaker 1: this massive, appropriate shaming of this kind of behavior is
Speaker 1: really going to make a lot of people think twice
Speaker 1: and the workplace. No, they may not be Harvey weinstains,
Speaker 1: but you know the fact that the repercussions have been
Speaker 1: so swift and so intense, and the shame so enormous.
Speaker 1: Now he's on the cover of Time magazine, and I
Speaker 1: believe it says producer predator pariah. And I think that
Speaker 1: probably so many people see that and they think, not
Speaker 1: only in Hollywood, but all across the country, oh wow, uh,
Speaker 1: look what. I don't want to be that guy on
Speaker 1: the cover of Time magazine. I don't want to be
Speaker 1: that guy in my community or in my company. That's
Speaker 1: the hope, And that's what I wrote in my recent
Speaker 1: New York Times op ed is Predators. This is a
Speaker 1: warning shot because now that more and more people are
Speaker 1: speaking out. You could be next. I feel like it's
Speaker 1: a shot through the heart. I feel like it's even
Speaker 1: more than a warning shot. I think that it's a
Speaker 1: clear signal to people everywhere that this behavior is not
Speaker 1: going to be tolerated. And it will be interesting to
Speaker 1: see if this has staying power. But so look at
Speaker 1: what happened. When we take it out of the shadows
Speaker 1: of secrecy, everything changes. I mean, that's why I'm fighting
Speaker 1: so hard to take the secrecy element out, because the
Speaker 1: minute that it's this public we're talking about that, we've
Speaker 1: put the shame from the women to the right people.
Speaker 1: Roger Ale's downfall was almost Shakespearean. Um. And I'm curious
Speaker 1: how you felt, Gretchen the day you heard that he
Speaker 1: had passed away. UM. I can't comment on any thought
Speaker 1: or feeling that I had. I mean, I shouldn't. We
Speaker 1: chose not to comment publicly. I just was curious. It
Speaker 1: must have been a strange sort of sensation for you.
Speaker 1: I mean, the only thing I can say is that
Speaker 1: every day since I have filed suit has been surreal.
Speaker 1: I mean, I could have never predicted how any of
Speaker 1: those days would have happened. Or turned out that I'd
Speaker 1: be sitting here talking about my book be fears. I mean,
Speaker 1: who would have known? Who would have known I'd be
Speaker 1: sitting here as one of the phases of sexual harassment.
Speaker 1: I certainly didn't choose that for myself. Do you think
Speaker 1: the atmosphere at Fox News has changed? I have no idea. Well,
Speaker 1: certainly you know people who work there. Do you think
Speaker 1: I don't think any of them? None of them? I
Speaker 1: guess you hope it's gotten better. No, I don't really care.
Speaker 1: I'm really concerned about helping the millions of other women
Speaker 1: and men across the country, so many of who have
Speaker 1: reached out to me, and there's so much work to
Speaker 1: do in other places that I can't I can't be
Speaker 1: worried or bothered about that. So, Gretchen, what's your reaction
Speaker 1: to the Trump administration weakening the standard to judge whether
Speaker 1: a student in college is guilty of sexual assault. A
Speaker 1: lot of people feel like the Obama administration overcorrected by
Speaker 1: saying the lowest standard of proof is the one that
Speaker 1: should be used, and the Trump administration responded by raising
Speaker 1: the standard of proof because they said that the old
Speaker 1: policey was unfair to those who are accused of sexual assault.
Speaker 1: This whole topic drives me crazy because I feel like
Speaker 1: these actions are taking place for politics instead of what
Speaker 1: really needs to be happening on college campuses. And so
Speaker 1: we either are all into something and just because a
Speaker 1: Democrat did that, then a Republican comes along and takes
Speaker 1: it all away, and you know, we could go on
Speaker 1: and on and talk about both sides doing the same thing. Listen,
Speaker 1: the majority of people who come forward and say they
Speaker 1: were assaulted are telling the truth. It's a small minority
Speaker 1: of cases where it turns out to be false accusations.
Speaker 1: So yes, we need to make sure that we protect
Speaker 1: those who are falsely accused. We wouldn't want that to
Speaker 1: be our children. However, it seems to me that the
Speaker 1: much greater problem is that one in five girls going
Speaker 1: off to college are going to be sexually assaulted. And
Speaker 1: that could be my daughter or anyone else who's listening. Daughter,
Speaker 1: that to me, see her son, that's true, and so
Speaker 1: that to me seems to be the paramount concern. I'm
Speaker 1: not really sure that that number one on the list,
Speaker 1: it's who's falsely accused. Yeah, we've seen news stories of that,
Speaker 1: but then what that says, though, to culture is that
Speaker 1: we makes a big deal about those that it almost
Speaker 1: equals the playing field and makes it look like it's
Speaker 1: fifty and and I don't think it is. So I
Speaker 1: just wish we could take the politics out of it,
Speaker 1: and you know, let's do what's best for our young people.
Speaker 1: And to me, that's calling attention to the issue. As
Speaker 1: I was telling people that we were going to be
Speaker 1: interviewing you, Gretchen, the reaction, at least among a lot
Speaker 1: of people I know, was that Fox and Friends, both
Speaker 1: when you were anchoring it and today is a show
Speaker 1: that's tilted against Democrats and and for the Republicans. Did
Speaker 1: you feel when you were doing that program like you
Speaker 1: were under pressure to look at the news through a
Speaker 1: certain filter or was that reporting authentic to your view
Speaker 1: of the news. I wish I could answer that, but
Speaker 1: I can't. So you can't even talk about your your
Speaker 1: professional news experiences. I can't talk about any experience at
Speaker 1: Fox for eleven years. Okay, well worth a try. This
Speaker 1: is why we have to change the way in which
Speaker 1: we silence women. I mean, I can't think of a
Speaker 1: better way to make my case. So as we as
Speaker 1: we mentioned Gretchen, you quoted Lisa Bloom, who has represented
Speaker 1: many women in harassment cases over the years. What was
Speaker 1: your reaction to Lisa choosing to represent and defend Harvey Weinstein.
Speaker 1: Disappointment because I know that my attorney who represented me,
Speaker 1: who specializes in these types of cases, only represents the
Speaker 1: plaintiff in the case. If you're a businesses representing women,
Speaker 1: and that's what it should be. So I was I
Speaker 1: was disappointed with that one thing, I think, which is
Speaker 1: an interesting observation, and I don't know aggression if you
Speaker 1: feel this way, but someone told me that one of
Speaker 1: the reasons why this is becoming such front page news
Speaker 1: is there many more female journalists who are making sure
Speaker 1: that these stories are covered. I mean there are some
Speaker 1: men too. Obviously, Ronning Pharaoh deserves a lot of credit
Speaker 1: for his many months investigation of Harvey Weinstein. But that's
Speaker 1: a really positive thing and I think that is really changing.
Speaker 1: I remember when I was anchoring the CBS Evening News,
Speaker 1: I tried to ensure that we did stories about dating
Speaker 1: violence or sexual assault in the military, you know, stories
Speaker 1: that were just not on the radar screens of my
Speaker 1: male colleagues. And that is why it's so critically important
Speaker 1: we have more women in these powerful decision making positions
Speaker 1: in every profession and every profession Washington, d C. Where
Speaker 1: we're enacting laws. There couldn't be a more important position
Speaker 1: for women to have a voice. Um, And I just
Speaker 1: want to mention that the fund that I've set up
Speaker 1: after my story, Gift of Courage, is actually sponsoring a
Speaker 1: leadership initiative for women to become more involved civically and politically.
Speaker 1: It's called the Gretchen Carlson Leadership Initiative nine City Tour
Speaker 1: starting next month. But here's the thing, it's helping underserved
Speaker 1: women get involved. That's one thing that has also surfaced
Speaker 1: in this whole conversation, you know, hashtag white girl problems.
Speaker 1: And I think that some people of color feel that
Speaker 1: there's an inordinate amount of attention spent on white women
Speaker 1: where there's so much and what's commonly called intersectionality now
Speaker 1: with women of color and this kind of treatment of
Speaker 1: the workplace being much worse and not acknowledged as much.
Speaker 1: Do you hope it will have a trickle down effect?
Speaker 1: But I have to say, of all the women who
Speaker 1: reached out to me, I would say that the demographics
Speaker 1: were exactly what the demographics are in the United States, right,
Speaker 1: But we don't hear necessarily about some of those women
Speaker 1: in in sort of other position possibly, but I'm featuring them, um.
Speaker 1: And also, I just want to say that this leadership
Speaker 1: initiative that I'm doing is also for domestic violence victims
Speaker 1: and in cities across the country. Unfortunately, predominantly those women
Speaker 1: are minorities. So my initiative is going to help them
Speaker 1: incredibly for free to be able to come and go
Speaker 1: to workshops on both of those issues, get help from attorneys,
Speaker 1: and learn how to become more civically and politically involved,
Speaker 1: because when you're a victim of those things you have,
Speaker 1: you feel like you don't have a voice on that issue,
Speaker 1: but you also feel like you don't have a voice
Speaker 1: on anything. And I want these women to know that
Speaker 1: their voice matters. So do you intend to really make
Speaker 1: this your life's work? Now? Do you miss television? Would
Speaker 1: you like to to do journalism again? This is obviously
Speaker 1: incredibly important, worthwhile work. But I'm just curious when you
Speaker 1: look kind of at the next ten years, what do
Speaker 1: you see yourself doing. I'm going to be working doing
Speaker 1: something because I've worked my whole life, but right now
Speaker 1: I'm doing four full time jobs. I'm way more busy
Speaker 1: than I ever was doing one TV job, and you know,
Speaker 1: I yeah, I hope to go back to TV. But
Speaker 1: I have to say this last fifteen months has given
Speaker 1: me great perspective, and I'm glad that I took this
Speaker 1: time to really sit back and take it all in
Speaker 1: and not just jump right back into any opportunity. And
Speaker 1: there's been a lot of inquiries and opportunities, but I
Speaker 1: don't think I was ready to go and do that
Speaker 1: because this is what I was meant to be doing
Speaker 1: right now, and if I wasn't going to do it,
Speaker 1: who was going to do it? So this first and
Speaker 1: foremost was important. And number two, the perspective that I've
Speaker 1: gained has really made me understand that whatever I go
Speaker 1: back to do, it's what I'm going to choose to
Speaker 1: go back to do. Plus, it must be really gratifying
Speaker 1: and satisfying to be a change agent and to be
Speaker 1: able to really dig in on a certain issue and
Speaker 1: effect change. Not many people can claim that true. And
Speaker 1: I have to say it's an incredibly emotional experience for me.
Speaker 1: You know, when I get emails from people after, especially
Speaker 1: after the Weinstein story broke, where my next door neighbor
Speaker 1: who's a good friend of mine, you know, wrote me
Speaker 1: an email and said her sixteen year old daughter had
Speaker 1: the news on that morning and turned to her and said, mom,
Speaker 1: none of this would have happened if Mrs Carlson hadn't
Speaker 1: done what she did. I mean, wow, it makes me
Speaker 1: take a step back, and I can get very emotional
Speaker 1: about that because I'm like, wait a minute, are they
Speaker 1: talking about me? You know, again, this is surreal experience.
Speaker 1: And I've gotten tons of those emails from you know,
Speaker 1: a woman I saw at a dinner party and she
Speaker 1: confided in me something that happened to her at work.
Speaker 1: And I actually said to her at the end, I said,
Speaker 1: you realize that was assault, right, And she was like no.
Speaker 1: And after the Weinstein story she wrote me an email
Speaker 1: and said, I just want to thank you again for
Speaker 1: your bravery and for helping me to acknowledge what happened
Speaker 1: to me was a crime. You know. Wow, those are
Speaker 1: just two examples. But you know, if if I've inspired
Speaker 1: hundreds or thousands more, then wow, this mission has been
Speaker 1: worth it. Well, Gretchen, I'm so grateful that you came
Speaker 1: by to talk about your book. Be fierce and good
Speaker 1: luck with everything. It will be fascinating to watch if
Speaker 1: real change is on the horizon or is already taking
Speaker 1: place in offices all across the country. I I get
Speaker 1: the sense that it really is a watershed moment that
Speaker 1: you helped create or at least paved the way for.
Speaker 1: And uh, it is very courageous of you to make
Speaker 1: this an important issue and to focus so much attention
Speaker 1: on it and help so many women who aren't famous
Speaker 1: and don't have the voice you have. Well, thank you
Speaker 1: for saying that. And if for people who know me
Speaker 1: incredibly well, they know that I never ever give up
Speaker 1: on an issue, so um, I'm bound and determined to
Speaker 1: make change on this one. Well, thank you so much,
Speaker 1: Thank you Katie and Brian, Thanks Qutch, and we're all
Speaker 1: rooting for you in this Um. It's it's extraordinary work
Speaker 1: you're doing. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you
Speaker 1: to our production team. That's Jeannah Palmer, our producer, nor Richie,
Speaker 1: our production assistant, and Jared O'Connell our audio engineer. Alison
Speaker 1: Bresnick pulls the shows social media strings, and Emily Beena
Speaker 1: over at the Behemoth, Katie currekt Media helps make the
Speaker 1: pod possible as well. Mark Phillips wrote our theme music.
Speaker 1: And remember, if you want to keep up with us
Speaker 1: on social media, you can find me under Katie Curic
Speaker 1: on Twitter and Instagram and Katie dot Curric on Snapchat.
Speaker 1: I'm on Facebook and of course I'm on there all
Speaker 1: the time, well mostly Instagram. Lately, I've been in Instagram freak.
Speaker 1: Brian meanwhile tweets from at goldsmith b on Twitter and
Speaker 1: he can be quite political. Indeed. And if you like
Speaker 1: our show and you haven't already subscribed, what are you
Speaker 1: what are you waiting for? This is outrageous, um, please subscribe,
Speaker 1: rate and review it over at Apple Podcasts really helps
Speaker 1: us out. We get a couple of shekels every time
Speaker 1: you do. No, not really, but we appreciate it nonetheless. Um,
Speaker 1: and we'll talk to you next time.