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Speaker 1: Hi, Brian, Hi Katie. Well, you know, we had a

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Speaker 1: whole other episode planned for this week and then breaking

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Speaker 1: news interrupted, and so we're shifting gears today, that's right,

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Speaker 1: and we're talking, of course, about the bombshell reports surrounding

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Speaker 1: Hollywood mogul Harvey Weinstein. He allegedly sexually harassed and assaulted

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Speaker 1: dozens and dozens of women over the course of decades.

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Speaker 1: The New York Times first broke that story, and it's

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Speaker 1: really made waves, especially as more details have emerged and

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Speaker 1: more women have come forward. The drip, drip, drip has

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Speaker 1: become a day luge of sorts, and it's opened up

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Speaker 1: a much broader cultural conversation about sexual misconduct in general,

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Speaker 1: what so many women continue to face in the workplace.

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Speaker 1: And you know, I've been talking about this, Brian, by

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Speaker 1: the way, for a long time, because one of my

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Speaker 1: first big stories as a national reporter was covering the

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Speaker 1: Clarence Thomas hearings. And I did the first interview with

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Speaker 1: Anita Hill, and you think, wow, that was in the

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Speaker 1: early nineties, and now here we are in two thousand seventeen,

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Speaker 1: it's still happening. So we decided to continue the conversation

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Speaker 1: and dive a little deeper with today's guest Gretchen Carlson

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Speaker 1: and you. You may remember that in sixteen, Gretchen filed

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Speaker 1: a sexual harassment lawsuit against the then all powerful chairman

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Speaker 1: of Fox News, Roger Ales, and she alleged that while

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Speaker 1: she was an anger at Fox, Ales made sexual advances

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Speaker 1: toward her and then fired her. After she brought it

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Speaker 1: to the network's attention, he was forced to resign. Gretchen

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Speaker 1: got a report at twenty million dollars settlement, and since

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Speaker 1: leaving Fox, she has decided to focus on advocacy rather

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Speaker 1: than journalism, and she's out this week with a new

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Speaker 1: book called b Fierce, Stop Harassment and Take Your Power Back. So,

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Speaker 1: because of her legal settlement, there's a lot that Gretchen

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Speaker 1: wasn't able to discussed in terms of the specifics of

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Speaker 1: her case, But we spoke to her about sexual harassment

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Speaker 1: and assault as a problem that's getting worse, not better

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Speaker 1: in this society, about the advice that she'd give to women,

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Speaker 1: as well as her own story her earliest days in

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Speaker 1: the spotlight as Miss America. In fact, I think that's

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Speaker 1: where Gretchen got the grace and grit required to really

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Speaker 1: do something about her situation at Fox News. So we're

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Speaker 1: having this conversation during a time when the hashtag me

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Speaker 1: too has been flooding social media. You tweeted me to

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Speaker 1: the night before we're taping this, Katie, and there's some

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Speaker 1: disagreement about what that actually means. Right to me, I

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Speaker 1: think it it's basically an all encompassing hashtag that signifies

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Speaker 1: that you've experienced sexual harassment or even worse, sexual assault.

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Speaker 1: And for me, obviously working for thirty five years, I've

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Speaker 1: had incidents of sexual harassment and the work place. I

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Speaker 1: don't have to get into details. You're gonna have to

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Speaker 1: wait and buy the book. I'm glad we could do

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Speaker 1: a little commerce in our intro here. We also, by

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Speaker 1: the way, heard from many of you, so thank you

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Speaker 1: so much to those who called in with your own

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Speaker 1: stories of sexual harassment at work. We're gonna be sharing

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Speaker 1: some of those calls during the break, so stay tuned

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Speaker 1: for that. But first, here's Gretchen Carlson. Gretchen Carlson, I'm

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Speaker 1: so excited to have you here in the studio. Brian

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Speaker 1: is in Los Angeles and you're here on Gosh during

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Speaker 1: a crazy period of time. I think for the subject

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Speaker 1: that you're talking about in your book, it seems to

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Speaker 1: be a really pivotal moment in the national discourse when

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Speaker 1: it comes to this topic. When you saw this Harvey

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Speaker 1: Weinstein stuff unfold, what were your thoughts. I wasn't surprised,

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Speaker 1: but I actually, in spite of the horrific allegations and revelations,

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Speaker 1: I actually was optimistic because it said to me that

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Speaker 1: more and more women felt secure and coming forward. And

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Speaker 1: that's the name of this game. You know. Unless we

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Speaker 1: can encourage more and more women to have that kind

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Speaker 1: of bravery, we're not going to get anywhere with this topic.

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Speaker 1: And it made me realize that the fifteen months of

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Speaker 1: work that I've been doing was possibly paying off, and

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Speaker 1: that was incredibly um encouraging for me personally. Why weren't

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Speaker 1: you surprised, Oh, because you know you've listen, you and

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Speaker 1: I were. We've been in the television business for a

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Speaker 1: long time, and then we've always heard the same things

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Speaker 1: about Hollywood and the casting couch and that kind of behavior.

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Speaker 1: But what I was surprised at when I first started

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Speaker 1: putting together my book, or actually right after my story exploded,

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Speaker 1: was all these women reaching out to me and what

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Speaker 1: was surprising was that most of them, almost all of them,

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Speaker 1: were not in television or Hollywood, and it made me

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Speaker 1: realize that this is a pervasive epidemic in every profession,

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Speaker 1: even female oriented professions like retail or flight attendants. So

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Speaker 1: that's why I say the Hollywood stories not shocking. What

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Speaker 1: was shocking is how pervasive this issue has penetrated our

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Speaker 1: culture and we've done nothing about it until no. So, Gretchen,

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Speaker 1: your new book, Your Fierce opens I love that title,

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Speaker 1: by the way, opens on the day after Labor Day

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Speaker 1: of you had sued your old boss, the former chairman

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Speaker 1: of Fox News, Roger Ales, for harassment and retaliation. Um,

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Speaker 1: and this was the day that the news broke about

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Speaker 1: your settlement with Fox. That's the opening of the book.

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Speaker 1: You're sitting in a nail salon and the news coverage

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Speaker 1: starts rolling in. Can you describe that moment and what

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Speaker 1: you were feeling. Yeah, So first day of school happened

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Speaker 1: to be that same day. My husband and I have

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Speaker 1: a tradition with our two children, twelve and fourteen, that

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Speaker 1: we drive them to school, dropped them off, and then

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Speaker 1: he and I would go into the city together because

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Speaker 1: we both worked in the city for years, except this year.

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Speaker 1: I had been fired, so I wasn't working, so that

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Speaker 1: in and of itself was a change. And I knew

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Speaker 1: that this that this news was going to be coming out.

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Speaker 1: I wasn't supposed to come out until I believe maybe

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Speaker 1: ten or eleven am, but I got to the city early.

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Speaker 1: I was actually had a haircut appointment of all crazy things,

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Speaker 1: and so I thought, well, what should I do with

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Speaker 1: this extra hour? So there was a nail salon nearby,

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Speaker 1: and one of the person in New York Cities getting

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Speaker 1: their nails done at nine am nobody. So there I

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Speaker 1: was in the nail salon all by myself and happened

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Speaker 1: to be getting a pedicure, and the news started coming

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Speaker 1: out on my phone and on Twitter and other social media,

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Speaker 1: and tears were streaming down my face, not because I

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Speaker 1: was sad, but because I was reading that the media

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Speaker 1: was picking up on the apology and that meant so

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Speaker 1: much to me. And I'm sure this woman who was

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Speaker 1: helping me out was thinking I was nuts, you know, like,

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Speaker 1: why is this woman crying on nine am on a

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Speaker 1: Tuesday morning or whatever it was. But it was just

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Speaker 1: so overwhelming, because it really was emblematic of my entire

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Speaker 1: fight because there I was by myself, and that's how

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Speaker 1: I started the fight, was by myself, which was really scary.

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Speaker 1: And I know in the early days, Gretchen, I remember

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Speaker 1: when all this happened. It seems to me that, you know,

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Speaker 1: one of the things I heard almost immediately was her

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Speaker 1: show was canceled, you know, uh and and and it

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Speaker 1: was almost as if the victim blaming began instantaneously. Tell

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Speaker 1: me about hearing things like that, and what that was

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Speaker 1: like and how galling that must have been. Well, I

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Speaker 1: was prepared for it because my attorneys had said that

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Speaker 1: the you know, that they would come at me with

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Speaker 1: a vengeance meaning a lot to people. Not that that

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Speaker 1: makes it right, but um, I think I was prepared

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Speaker 1: to take that on. I mean that was part of

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Speaker 1: the courage building. This is not a process where you

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Speaker 1: just decide one day, I think I'll do this. This

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Speaker 1: is something that takes immense courage and it's an excruciating

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Speaker 1: decision for women because of exactly what you're talking about

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Speaker 1: that you know you're going to be labeled a troublemaker.

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Speaker 1: Not believed, he said, She said, culture called, you know, worse,

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Speaker 1: the v word and and worse than that, and and

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Speaker 1: that your Christian will be destroyed. And it was so

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Speaker 1: orchestrated by your former employer, right, I mean, it seems

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Speaker 1: to me it was not just a comment here or there.

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Speaker 1: It seemed to be almost like a political campaign in

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Speaker 1: a way, kind of like, uh, what are you you know,

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Speaker 1: opposition research? Right, Well, I can't comment on how they

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Speaker 1: put their plan together, but I can just say that

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Speaker 1: overwhelmly on social media. You know, there were some people

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Speaker 1: who were critical of me, but the hashtag stand for

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Speaker 1: Gretchen went viral and actually that was really heartening to

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Speaker 1: me and buoyed my spirits because there were some dark

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Speaker 1: days and dark moments in the beginning there, with no

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Speaker 1: sleep and a lot of restless nights. In fact, Brian,

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Speaker 1: as the lawyer in the group, you can ask Gretchen

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Speaker 1: about just so we make it clear for our listeners

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Speaker 1: what you can and cannot talk about when it comes

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Speaker 1: to this situation, because I think we should be transparent

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Speaker 1: about that. So take it away, counselor Well, there's actually

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Speaker 1: an interesting topic to explore because as part of your settlement,

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Speaker 1: it's been publicly reported you got paid twenty million dollars,

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Speaker 1: and in exchange for that, you agreed not to talk

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Speaker 1: about aspects of your case. And so I wondered whether

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Speaker 1: you considered not signing a settlement so that you could

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Speaker 1: in fact share all aspects of this case or was

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Speaker 1: that just never even on the table. Oh no, sure,

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Speaker 1: I mean, and I got asked that question a lot.

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Speaker 1: But here's the reality that people don't know about. We

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Speaker 1: as a society have decided that we solve sexual harassment

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Speaker 1: cases usually in settlements or in forced arbitration, if that's

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Speaker 1: in your employment contract. And here's the problem with both

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Speaker 1: their secret and nobody ever knows any of the details,

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Speaker 1: and the women cannot talk about what happened to them.

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Speaker 1: And so for me, if I hadn't gone down that path,

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Speaker 1: I would have been forced into secrecy anyway, and nobody

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Speaker 1: would have really ever then known about about my case.

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Speaker 1: So the way I answer that is my complaint is public.

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Speaker 1: You can google it if you want to find out

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Speaker 1: all the details. I don't really need to talk about

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Speaker 1: the details because I have been afforded the opportunity within

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Speaker 1: that settlement to be able to talk about this issue.

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Speaker 1: And that's the way that I've been thinking for the

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Speaker 1: last fifteen months is how do we move this forward.

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Speaker 1: That's why I wrote the book Be Fierce, because how

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Speaker 1: do I help people and move forward? And look, it's working.

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Speaker 1: So that's why going back to the Weinstein revelations, I

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Speaker 1: see that as a positive. I mean, they're horrific, but

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Speaker 1: the reality is women and men are feeling more comfortable

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Speaker 1: about coming forward. It really does feel like a watershed

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Speaker 1: moment to me in many ways. You know, Unfortunately, there

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Speaker 1: have been other things in the past that have felt

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Speaker 1: like watershed moments. And I want to talk to you

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Speaker 1: in a bit, Gretchen, about what sort of safeguards or

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Speaker 1: structural changes can be put in place that will really

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Speaker 1: make a difference once and for all. But we want

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Speaker 1: to talk a little bit about sort of you and

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Speaker 1: how you got here. You grew up in Minnesota, Minnesota,

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Speaker 1: did I say, right? Yeah? Sure, and you've had You've

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Speaker 1: had such an interesting journey from there. To hear it

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Speaker 1: sounds like your parents were both pretty strict um by

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Speaker 1: the book, and someone described your mom as a Swedish

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Speaker 1: tiger mom, oh yeah, which I thought was so cute.

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Speaker 1: What was life like you like for you as a child? Actually,

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Speaker 1: I described her that way in my memoir, and she

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Speaker 1: didn't really like it, but it was true. She sounds

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Speaker 1: like quite the little powerhouse. And by the way, I

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Speaker 1: shouldn't say little, she sounds like quite the powerhouse. Ye. Well,

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Speaker 1: that's where I learned how to be fierce. Uh. And

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Speaker 1: I actually talked about this a lot in the book.

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Speaker 1: That's why I dedicated a chapter to parenting, because I

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Speaker 1: really believe that, you know, gaining courage in your life

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Speaker 1: and and having perseverance and tenacity starts at a young age,

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Speaker 1: and it's it depends on how you're reared. And so

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Speaker 1: first and foremost, she told me every day I could

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Speaker 1: be anything I wanted to be. I thought every kid

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Speaker 1: heard that, and I believed her. You know, she did

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Speaker 1: have the caveat You're gonna have to work incredibly hard

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Speaker 1: to get there. But that was a message that was

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Speaker 1: ingrained in me. And so from an early age I

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Speaker 1: built a lot of courage. Plus I was a really

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Speaker 1: serious violinists, so I built incredible self confidence and courage

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Speaker 1: from going out on stage and competing and performing and

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Speaker 1: believing in myself. Because of that talent, nobody could take

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Speaker 1: it away from me. Self disciplined to this is a

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Speaker 1: ridiculous amount. Starting at age six, you did an hour

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Speaker 1: a day, and then when you got a little bit older,

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Speaker 1: it was three hours a day, something like three or

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Speaker 1: four hours. Yeah, I know. It was something that I

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Speaker 1: obviously loved until I got to be a teenager, and

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Speaker 1: then I realized that to really succeed at the level

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Speaker 1: that I wanted to succeed, and I'd have to give

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Speaker 1: up everything else in my life. So that's when I quit,

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Speaker 1: which was pretty devastating news to my parents at age seventeen.

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Speaker 1: But it's it's disciplined that I still carry with me

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Speaker 1: every single day, and it's the way in which I

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Speaker 1: approach life that when you put time into something, you

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Speaker 1: see that you get better at it. Well, and you

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Speaker 1: quit that, but you you went on to Stanford and

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Speaker 1: then you decided to compete to become Miss America. What

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Speaker 1: what inspired you to do that? Yeah? Well I didn't

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Speaker 1: actually decide to to try that. My mom actually tried

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Speaker 1: to encourage me to do that. She got a rosure

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Speaker 1: in the mail on the pageant ironically, and it said

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Speaker 1: in the fine print fifty per of a contestant's points

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Speaker 1: are based on talent, and she called me up I

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Speaker 1: was actually studying at Oxford at the time, and she said,

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Speaker 1: oh my gosh, I found something that I think you

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Speaker 1: should try. She said, it's half your points are talent,

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Speaker 1: you have that, you know, this is something you should do.

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Speaker 1: And I'm like, mom, are you nuts? This is not

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Speaker 1: on my radar screen at all? And I really had

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Speaker 1: not watched pageants at all. It was a tomboy um

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Speaker 1: so as I said, she's a very convincing person. Half

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Speaker 1: your half your points or talent, but half your points

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Speaker 1: or other things, you know, how you have baby suits

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Speaker 1: and they had that part. I mean, so for me,

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Speaker 1: as somebody who is ten years older than you are,

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Speaker 1: it didn't take me long as a girl to realize

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Speaker 1: pageants were just bullshit, honestly, and that they objectified women.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's nice at is talent, and obviously you're

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Speaker 1: enormously talented, you know, much more talented than like people

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Speaker 1: who play things with spoons or whatever, some of the

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Speaker 1: other frenriloquist or whatever. And I'm just curious, like, was

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Speaker 1: there something inside of you, Gretchen that said, you know what, honestly,

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Speaker 1: this is not this is not for me, This is

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Speaker 1: really not who I am, And this is not what

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Speaker 1: I want to convey to other women. Yeah, I mean

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Speaker 1: I felt that way. I guess more after the fact,

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Speaker 1: I went back to Stanford and took some feminism classes. UM,

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Speaker 1: and I've always been a huge advocate for women. So

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Speaker 1: you know, I guess you could argue that those two

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Speaker 1: things didn't ALIGNE but you know, you have to also

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Speaker 1: remember that it is a scholarship program. I want a

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Speaker 1: lot of scholarship money. I paid for my entire last

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Speaker 1: year of Stanford by myself based on my winnings from

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Speaker 1: Miss America. UM. I have been an advocate for a

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Speaker 1: long time of getting rid of the swimsuit portion and

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Speaker 1: for me, that was the toughest part because I'm short

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Speaker 1: and uh, I really had to struggle to get myself

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Speaker 1: into decent shape. So that was actually the most challenging

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Speaker 1: part for me. And I don't necessarily see that as

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Speaker 1: a negative, that you set a goal in front of

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Speaker 1: yourself and and you go for it and you feel

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Speaker 1: good about the end result. Would you want your daughter

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Speaker 1: to compete in a beauty count totally her decision. I

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Speaker 1: don't believe at all in pageants for young kids. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I shuddered to think these parents that are dress and

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Speaker 1: their kids up and three and four and five and

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Speaker 1: six and ten and twelve year olds. My daughter's fourteen. Now,

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Speaker 1: she happens to be an exceptional pianist. If she wants

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Speaker 1: to do it, I have no idea if she does

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Speaker 1: or not. I'll have a conversation with her about it.

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Speaker 1: But you also have to remember, I'm the mom who

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Speaker 1: never even told my kids that I was Miss America.

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Speaker 1: And one day I was waiting for this day to come.

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Speaker 1: And she came home from school when she was about

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Speaker 1: eight years old, maybe nine. She said, mom, She said,

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Speaker 1: somebody at school told me you were some America thing.

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Speaker 1: And I said, ah, I've been waiting for this day.

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Speaker 1: She said, well, Mommy, could I see you know the crown?

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Speaker 1: And I said, well, yeah, let me see if I

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Speaker 1: can find it in my closet. So we went upstairs

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Speaker 1: and I showed her the crown and she put it on.

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Speaker 1: And then I had my gown in a shoe box

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Speaker 1: and um and and I showed her that, and she

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Speaker 1: she put it onto and we took pictures, and then

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Speaker 1: that was that. I said, Mommy did this because mommy

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Speaker 1: played the violin and you played the piano. And you

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Speaker 1: know this is something mommy accomplished and it was the

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Speaker 1: end of the story. And I don't even know if

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Speaker 1: I've ever had the conversation with my son, to be

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Speaker 1: honest with you. Um So, it's not like I display

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Speaker 1: my Miss American life at home or talk about it

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Speaker 1: or I think my daughter should be a pageant person

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Speaker 1: in any stretch of the imagination. Do they really use

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Speaker 1: like preparation? H somewhere did that stuff? I'm from, Katie.

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Speaker 1: Are there some tricks like preparation or isn't there something

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Speaker 1: that you put on like a spray? I still wont

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Speaker 1: without doing any of that craft. Um so. And yeah,

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Speaker 1: I never believed in in doing that. Here's here's what

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Speaker 1: I learned from it, though. Uh. I learned guts from

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Speaker 1: being Miss America and also how to speak publicly without

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Speaker 1: any apprehension or nerves. I mean, I'll never forget. In

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Speaker 1: the first week, I was at some huge event in Atlanta.

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Speaker 1: Two thousand people thought I was just there to have dinner.

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Speaker 1: Guy comes up to me after dinner before jissert. He goes,

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Speaker 1: I just wanted to give you a five minute before

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Speaker 1: your keynote. I said, excuse me, He said, yeah, you're keynote,

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Speaker 1: I said, okay, I said, in how long would you

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Speaker 1: like me to speak? He goes, just forty five minutes.

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Speaker 1: So I went in the bathroom with a cocktail napkin

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Speaker 1: and a pencil that I borrowed from somebody else at

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Speaker 1: the table, and I wrote down a couple of bullet points,

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Speaker 1: and I went out and I gave a speech for

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Speaker 1: forty five minutes. So you know, Lesson number one, always

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Speaker 1: have three speeches in your back pocket. Lessen number two,

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Speaker 1: My gosh, look at what I gained from that year

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Speaker 1: of being put in those unbelievably adult situations at age two.

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Speaker 1: So it's not Pageants are not all bad, Katie. No,

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Speaker 1: I know, I know. I think I'm just like I

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Speaker 1: could never have entered one. Maybe I have pageant envy

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Speaker 1: or something. But you know, you played the violin in

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Speaker 1: the Miss America competition. So let's listen for a second,

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Speaker 1: uh to Gretchen playing what were you playing? Gretchen Yan

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Speaker 1: Gypsy airs, God Bless you, Zagunavis and a violin performance

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Speaker 1: by Gretchen. Elizabeth Carl said, Miss Minnesota, you're a sucker

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Speaker 1: for that vibrato, aren't you. Yeah, it feels like it

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Speaker 1: was yesterday, not really. By the way, you have a

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Speaker 1: beautiful green bow in your hair, which I understand you

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Speaker 1: made from the bottom of your dress. Is that true

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Speaker 1: resourceful to ladies and gentlemen are frugal in Minnesota? I did,

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Speaker 1: and the bow actually was falling out of my hair

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Speaker 1: while I was performing before millions of people. And I

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Speaker 1: also a secret fact I had a hairpiece in and

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Speaker 1: so I've been thinking to myself while I'm performing in

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Speaker 1: front of millions of people and trying to win this thing,

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Speaker 1: I'm thinking, Okay, this will be really awful if this

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Speaker 1: green piece falls out and the hairpiece falls out, but

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Speaker 1: will look like a whirl on the stage. So that's

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Speaker 1: what was actually going through my mind as I was.

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Speaker 1: Oh and before I went out to do the swimsuit competition,

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Speaker 1: I got my period. Oh lord yeah, Bryan Mosuh well sorry,

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Speaker 1: it's more than more than I knew. Yeah, So I

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Speaker 1: was like, anyone have any emergency help please. I had

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Speaker 1: about two seconds to do the clothing change anyway, So

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Speaker 1: these are all the things that make you a stronger person. Well,

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Speaker 1: I have to say, you know, that kind of poise

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Speaker 1: is unusual, because shortly after that they did play a

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Speaker 1: funny joke on you. Gary Collins and Marianne Mobley, Uh

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Speaker 1: where you were on some NBC blooper show. They left,

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Speaker 1: I guess the set of their talk show, and you

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Speaker 1: were told you had to to stall and kind of

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Speaker 1: talk about a satellite system I knew nothing about. I mean,

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Speaker 1: the fact that you kept your act together was really

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Speaker 1: I noticed. I wanted to say something else, right, Trust me,

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Speaker 1: I wanted to say all those words while I was

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Speaker 1: standing up there. It was just I mean, I think

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Speaker 1: gets worth anyone watching how I was so pitted out

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Speaker 1: just watching you because I guess I'm thinking about all

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Speaker 1: these really stressful moments. Yeah, this is what builds courage,

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Speaker 1: um and and character. But yeah, that was a week

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Speaker 1: into being Miss America, and all I could think of

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Speaker 1: is they're going to fire me from this job because

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Speaker 1: I thought I was talking about its satellite system I

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Speaker 1: knew nothing about in front of five thousand engineers in

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Speaker 1: d C. And they probably knew everything about it, right,

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Speaker 1: And Gary and Marianne got called off the set for emergencies,

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Speaker 1: and then they said we're coming to you in five

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Speaker 1: four three two. Remember who knows absolutely nothing about the system,

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Speaker 1: and you and I can appreciate this from live TV.

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Speaker 1: And they go just just start talking, and I was like,

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Speaker 1: about what, you know what? So I introduced myself. Hi,

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Speaker 1: I'm glad to be back with you this morning. I'm

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Speaker 1: Gretchen Carlson, the new Miss America and this is my

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Speaker 1: second appearance here in Denver and it's been wonderful so far.

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Speaker 1: And I gave my little Miss America speel and then

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Speaker 1: I stopped, and he goes, oh no, no, keep going,

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Speaker 1: keep keeping. If you want to talk talk about the

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Speaker 1: machine a little bit, whatever you can remember about it,

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Speaker 1: just it doesn't matter, even if you don't know I

401
00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:07,320
Speaker 1: Standwarches well. Today Gary, Gary and Marianne are supposed to

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Speaker 1: be here with me, and they're going to be discussing

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Speaker 1: the intricate details details about the system. My only directions

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Speaker 1: are to press a few of these buttons. So this

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Speaker 1: one on for fourteen minutes, and literally in my brain again,

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Speaker 1: I'm thinking I'm going to be, you know, fired from

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Speaker 1: this job. And I have to say that, you know,

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Speaker 1: life works in mysterious ways, and this is a great

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Speaker 1: lesson for anyone about struggle and how you perceive yourself

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Speaker 1: and how it can change on a dime. So when

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Speaker 1: that actually aired, that's how I got into TV. I

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Speaker 1: know someone saw you and thought. A couple agents saw

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Speaker 1: it and they called me and they said, if you

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Speaker 1: can do that, you can do TV. We're going to

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Speaker 1: take a quick break. We'll be back soon with more

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Speaker 1: from Gretchen and hear about her path into TV news

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Speaker 1: after her days as Miss America. But first a word

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Speaker 1: from our sponsors and from you. Sexual harassment doesn't just

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Speaker 1: happen to powerful people. It's not just committed by powerful people.

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Speaker 1: It happens across industries, two people from all walks of life.

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Speaker 1: So many of you called in with testimony of your

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Speaker 1: own experiences, from big box store employees to auto plant workers.

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Speaker 1: Here's some of what you had to say. When I

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Speaker 1: was seventeen, UM, I went for a job and the

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Speaker 1: person interviewing me put his hand on my leg and

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Speaker 1: robbed it and I did not accept job because of that.

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Speaker 1: I was sexually harassed by the CEO of our company.

428
00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:49,360
Speaker 1: I had told him my head had so much coffee

429
00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:51,880
Speaker 1: that morning. I said, I can actually feel my insights

430
00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:55,520
Speaker 1: vibrating and he said, oh really, I thought that Miss,

431
00:23:55,560 --> 00:24:00,480
Speaker 1: maybe a sex toy in your purse. When I accorded

432
00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:03,720
Speaker 1: it to h R. HR came back to me and

433
00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:06,679
Speaker 1: told me that I kind of uh participated in the

434
00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:11,240
Speaker 1: conversation when my boss and I because we had become

435
00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:13,520
Speaker 1: friends and he wanted to know if I had any

436
00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:15,560
Speaker 1: friends that I could hook him up with that he

437
00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:20,120
Speaker 1: could date. UM. So h R said that I had

438
00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:23,800
Speaker 1: kind of instigated the conversation. Um. I was then fired

439
00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:28,480
Speaker 1: two days later, and UM, yeah, and lost my job

440
00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:31,800
Speaker 1: because of it. He was the assistant principal of my school.

441
00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:35,199
Speaker 1: I was the first year teacher. I was afraid to

442
00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:39,280
Speaker 1: tell him no. I was a manager at one of

443
00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:42,920
Speaker 1: the big box stores and I was the only female

444
00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:48,520
Speaker 1: black manager. My head manager had a problem with lesbian

445
00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:52,160
Speaker 1: women that we had working for us. He made lots

446
00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:55,119
Speaker 1: of comments about them being lesbians and this and that,

447
00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:57,800
Speaker 1: and I reported him, even though I was straight. I

448
00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:01,120
Speaker 1: reported him to the corporate department. The corporate people came,

449
00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:05,000
Speaker 1: they took the reports, and from then on, every time

450
00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:08,720
Speaker 1: we were on a monthly conference call, he used to

451
00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:13,160
Speaker 1: just go after me. Um. My company that I work

452
00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:16,720
Speaker 1: for is terrible with sexual harassment. They think it's not

453
00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:20,920
Speaker 1: a big deal. Boys will be boys. Terrible things have

454
00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:25,479
Speaker 1: happened here, from pictures of people's private parts being shown

455
00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:29,800
Speaker 1: to women to people commenting about whether or not you

456
00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:34,160
Speaker 1: had a boob job, etcetera, etcetera. This is at an

457
00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:39,000
Speaker 1: auto planet free un California, Gorge of California. It's a

458
00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:46,440
Speaker 1: Friday night, almost time to leave. Crabs your hands, put

459
00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:49,720
Speaker 1: some lout her grasp for the minute you just melt

460
00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:53,639
Speaker 1: that you Oh my god, what happened? You know? I

461
00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:56,320
Speaker 1: sweeps you off your feet. You can't believe it, but

462
00:25:56,520 --> 00:26:00,840
Speaker 1: it's it was very real. When I was out of college,

463
00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:04,880
Speaker 1: at my first job in the business world, I experienced

464
00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:08,800
Speaker 1: some sexual harassment, just inappropriate UM, sexual behavior by one

465
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:11,520
Speaker 1: of the executives where I worked. UM. I had a

466
00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:14,320
Speaker 1: witness to it. I reported it to my boss, who

467
00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:18,560
Speaker 1: was wonderful, and he actually asked several of the other women,

468
00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:21,480
Speaker 1: uh and they corroborated. They had their own stories to

469
00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:26,040
Speaker 1: share as well, and eventually the harasser was fired. But

470
00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:31,160
Speaker 1: you know, it's a very isolating experience and that's very scary. UM.

471
00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:40,520
Speaker 1: But you know, we're not alone. Thanks so much again

472
00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:43,320
Speaker 1: to everyone who called in. You know, Katie, this conversation

473
00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:45,960
Speaker 1: with Gretchen Carlson reminds me of some of our previous

474
00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:49,679
Speaker 1: episodes where we've had trailblazing women. And in fact, if

475
00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:52,720
Speaker 1: you liked this episode, wait there's more, I think you'd

476
00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:56,200
Speaker 1: also like our chat from August. That's episode number thirty

477
00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:59,159
Speaker 1: seven with Avia di Verney. I love Eva. She is

478
00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:01,200
Speaker 1: so a comp place. You're gonna be hearing a lot

479
00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:03,760
Speaker 1: more about her very soon with a wrinkle in Time.

480
00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:06,639
Speaker 1: Or how about our discussion from back in April with

481
00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:10,720
Speaker 1: Cheryl Sandberg That is episode And of course, Julia Louis

482
00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:13,480
Speaker 1: Dreyfuss was one of our first guests way back in

483
00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:16,399
Speaker 1: episode four and one of my favorites. And not just

484
00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:19,159
Speaker 1: to name a few that are worth checking out, but

485
00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:28,159
Speaker 1: for now, back to our conversation with Gretchen Carlson. To

486
00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:30,280
Speaker 1: fast forward a little bit, you you work for some

487
00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:34,320
Speaker 1: local stations from there, then CBS News, then Fox, which

488
00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:40,159
Speaker 1: was started to be an ideological counterbalance to the mainstream media.

489
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:43,600
Speaker 1: Were you at the time attracted to the idea of

490
00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:48,120
Speaker 1: a pro Republican network. No, I was attracted to my

491
00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:50,400
Speaker 1: life dream, which was to do a morning show Monday

492
00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:53,879
Speaker 1: through Friday. I didn't want to listen to my mom anymore,

493
00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:57,280
Speaker 1: asked me why I didn't smile more when I was

494
00:27:57,320 --> 00:27:59,840
Speaker 1: covering murders and fires in local news, which is what

495
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:02,000
Speaker 1: she would do when I'd send the tape. People need

496
00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:03,840
Speaker 1: to really get to know you, Gretchen. You know you

497
00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:06,000
Speaker 1: have a funny side, you have you know, you have

498
00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:07,760
Speaker 1: this all this other that you can offer, and you

499
00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:09,440
Speaker 1: can't do that while you're just reporting the news. And

500
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:11,439
Speaker 1: I'm like, yeah, but I'm getting experience, mom, which I

501
00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:15,720
Speaker 1: really really need. So my my goal always in in

502
00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:18,679
Speaker 1: television was to be able to do um, you know

503
00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:22,200
Speaker 1: what Katie did Monday Monday through Friday National Morning Show

504
00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:25,119
Speaker 1: and have the ability to show my chops in hard

505
00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:28,480
Speaker 1: news and also my fun side. It's really a nice

506
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:32,000
Speaker 1: format for people who have a personality because you can

507
00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:37,560
Speaker 1: do serious journalism and really, you know, put someone in

508
00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:39,920
Speaker 1: the hot seat and then you can have a lot

509
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:43,680
Speaker 1: of fun and interact with your co hosts. And but

510
00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:47,000
Speaker 1: that was challenging for you. Tell me a little bit

511
00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:50,480
Speaker 1: about your experience doing that show. It's funny because I

512
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:52,880
Speaker 1: know you worked with someone named Steve Doocey, who I

513
00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:56,640
Speaker 1: worked with at the NBC O and O in Washington,

514
00:28:56,760 --> 00:28:59,520
Speaker 1: d C. And you can talk about it and I can't.

515
00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:01,440
Speaker 1: You can't talk about it, But can you talk about

516
00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:04,320
Speaker 1: sort of the atmosphere in general of doing that show?

517
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:07,920
Speaker 1: You're not allowed to talk about any of that anyway, Well,

518
00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:12,400
Speaker 1: never mind, sorry, Roger Ales. Obviously, the head of Fox

519
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:15,280
Speaker 1: News was known as a very tough and temperamental boss.

520
00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:18,440
Speaker 1: Can you talk about when his treatment of you started

521
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:19,920
Speaker 1: to cross the line or do we have to read

522
00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:24,000
Speaker 1: the complaint for that? Yeah, it's all in the complaint. Yeah,

523
00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:26,640
Speaker 1: I can't. I can't talk about my experience there at all.

524
00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:28,960
Speaker 1: But I think based on all the news stories that

525
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:32,600
Speaker 1: have come out since my story broke, it's pretty apparent

526
00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:34,960
Speaker 1: and out there. We can read from the book though,

527
00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:37,400
Speaker 1: right of course it's just from Brian. Do you want

528
00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:40,800
Speaker 1: to read from from be Fear? So we don't put

529
00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:44,320
Speaker 1: Gretchen in that weird situation. Before you do that, though,

530
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:48,040
Speaker 1: we have this audio clip from Fox and Friends. Gretchen, Okay,

531
00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:50,040
Speaker 1: let's just listen to it and see if you can

532
00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:53,400
Speaker 1: comment in any way, shape or form. Last night and

533
00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:54,840
Speaker 1: some guy came up and he said, I saw you

534
00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:57,600
Speaker 1: have Fox and Friends this morning. Is Gretchen as cute

535
00:29:57,600 --> 00:29:59,040
Speaker 1: in person as she is onto you? And what did

536
00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:03,920
Speaker 1: you answer America beautiful dressing look wonderful? Was that sort

537
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:07,440
Speaker 1: of par for the course? Um, I can't. I can't

538
00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:09,520
Speaker 1: talk about it. I think it speaks for itself. Again,

539
00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:13,160
Speaker 1: I don't need to say anything about it. So it

540
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:18,160
Speaker 1: has been reported and and Gretchen said this that when

541
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:22,320
Speaker 1: she joined the network in two thousand five, Ale suggested

542
00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:26,360
Speaker 1: that she wear tight fitting outfits. Um. When Gretchen complained

543
00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:30,440
Speaker 1: to her supervisor about Steve Doocey, who she said condescended

544
00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:33,200
Speaker 1: to her on and off the air, Ales responded that

545
00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:35,360
Speaker 1: she was a man hater and a killer who needed

546
00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:38,760
Speaker 1: to get along with the boys. And after this conversation,

547
00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:42,360
Speaker 1: Gretchen said that her role on the show diminished, that

548
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:49,920
Speaker 1: she was demoted, and ultimately she was terminated. But before then,

549
00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:53,960
Speaker 1: she um, she turned the tables on Roger Ales. I

550
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:56,480
Speaker 1: know you can't comment on this, but with your iPhone

551
00:30:57,280 --> 00:31:02,320
Speaker 1: you recorded meetings with him in his office. And the

552
00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:06,840
Speaker 1: famous quote was Ailes saying to you, I think you

553
00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:09,200
Speaker 1: and I should have had a sexual relationship a long

554
00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:11,719
Speaker 1: time ago, and then you'd be good and better and

555
00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:14,960
Speaker 1: I'd be good and better. Sometimes problems are easier to

556
00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:21,320
Speaker 1: solve that way. So that was all pretty stunning and appalling,

557
00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:24,520
Speaker 1: and it's a it's a little challenging that you can't

558
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:26,920
Speaker 1: comment on it, but at the very least our listeners

559
00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:30,240
Speaker 1: ought to know. Um. You quote in the book Lisa Bloom,

560
00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:33,800
Speaker 1: who has represented women for over thirty years, saying that

561
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:37,240
Speaker 1: of all the women I know who publicly complained, not

562
00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:41,720
Speaker 1: one is working in her chosen career today. And in fact,

563
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:44,400
Speaker 1: ste you do see is still on Fox. You know,

564
00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:47,840
Speaker 1: these women are labeled as as troublemakers. Gretchen, do you

565
00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:52,040
Speaker 1: think that broader problem of women losing their jobs blaming

566
00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:55,160
Speaker 1: the victim can be fixed? Yeah? I mean, wouldn't it

567
00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:57,880
Speaker 1: be fantastic with all the attention on this issue right now,

568
00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:00,720
Speaker 1: in a national dialogue about it more than ever before,

569
00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:04,600
Speaker 1: wouldn't it be great if corporations decided to hire these

570
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:07,200
Speaker 1: people back? You know, that would be a step in

571
00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:09,360
Speaker 1: the right direction. I mean, who deserves to have the

572
00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:12,200
Speaker 1: American dream taken away from them because of some random jerk.

573
00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:17,240
Speaker 1: That's what's happening. And the thousands of women who reached

574
00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:20,600
Speaker 1: out to me, Um, the majority are not working in

575
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:25,120
Speaker 1: their in their chosen field anymore. And that's outrageous, And

576
00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:28,120
Speaker 1: this is why we need to all be a part

577
00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:30,840
Speaker 1: of the solution. And I'm talking not only men and women.

578
00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:35,080
Speaker 1: I'm talking Republicans and Democrats. That's why I've been I've

579
00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:37,200
Speaker 1: been so active on Capitol Hill in the last year

580
00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:40,120
Speaker 1: trying to get this bill introduced that would take the

581
00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:44,160
Speaker 1: secrecy out of these forced arbitration clauses. It's a baby step,

582
00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:46,959
Speaker 1: but at least it would try to even out the

583
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:50,520
Speaker 1: pendulum of power. Right now, the employer is sitting way

584
00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:52,960
Speaker 1: up here knowing that anything that happens in the workplace

585
00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:57,239
Speaker 1: is secret. Isn't that a great thing for them? And

586
00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:00,200
Speaker 1: the employee who may have a dispute has no hour

587
00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:04,040
Speaker 1: and can never tell anyone about it. Ever, you testified

588
00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:06,840
Speaker 1: on Capitol Hill. I think Al Franken I did press

589
00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:10,080
Speaker 1: conference with him. Testifying has not yet happened. But I

590
00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:12,440
Speaker 1: am optimistic because I've been having so many private meetings

591
00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:15,080
Speaker 1: with Republicans. Democrats are already on board with this issue.

592
00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:18,160
Speaker 1: But I am optimistic because I've had so many private

593
00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:21,760
Speaker 1: meetings um with Republicans that I Am going to get

594
00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:24,800
Speaker 1: this bipartisan bill to happen. How difficult is it, given

595
00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:28,800
Speaker 1: the kind of behavior we saw from the president during

596
00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:33,960
Speaker 1: the campaign and and perhaps allegedly in the months and

597
00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:38,800
Speaker 1: years before he decided to run. Sure, I think it

598
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:42,720
Speaker 1: sends mixed messages to our culture, There's no doubt about that.

599
00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:45,959
Speaker 1: I actually featured Natasha Stoynof in my book Be Fierce.

600
00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:47,960
Speaker 1: She was one of the Trump accusers who worked for

601
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:54,640
Speaker 1: People magazine, and her story is complete in my book. So,

602
00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:58,000
Speaker 1: you know, I think what was fascinating about all those

603
00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:00,480
Speaker 1: women that had the bravery to come forward before he

604
00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:03,480
Speaker 1: was elected was that their stories were published and then

605
00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:06,640
Speaker 1: they just sort of disappeared as well, right, not not

606
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:08,840
Speaker 1: the women, but the stories, and that that goes to

607
00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:11,280
Speaker 1: show you how we treat this issue in our culture.

608
00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:14,480
Speaker 1: It was like, Okay, well they made those allegations. I guess, oh, well,

609
00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:16,520
Speaker 1: we haven't heard from them recently, so I guess we'll

610
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:20,120
Speaker 1: just move on. And and that was not a watershed moment.

611
00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:25,040
Speaker 1: That was not a tipping point moment moment. So what

612
00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:28,000
Speaker 1: do I think about the videotape. I think it was awful.

613
00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:33,120
Speaker 1: I thought it was some of the worst human behavior

614
00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:36,800
Speaker 1: that I've ever heard in my life talking about Hollywood tape.

615
00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:40,520
Speaker 1: And you know, I'm sure that millions of other parents,

616
00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:43,640
Speaker 1: like myself, were faced with the same thing to grapple with.

617
00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:45,920
Speaker 1: The day that came out and the days that followed,

618
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:50,200
Speaker 1: is what the hell do I tell my kids? And

619
00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:53,239
Speaker 1: that became an issue, you know, in our household. And

620
00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:56,360
Speaker 1: it was personal for me because my story had just happened,

621
00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:00,520
Speaker 1: So it was extremely personal. And and I took it

622
00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:02,960
Speaker 1: as a teachable moment for my kids and had them

623
00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:06,239
Speaker 1: watch it and listen to it and told them this

624
00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:09,799
Speaker 1: is not how you treat another human being. I think

625
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:12,840
Speaker 1: what was shocking and appalling for people, though, was it

626
00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:16,239
Speaker 1: didn't seem to matter among some members of the electorate.

627
00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:20,239
Speaker 1: You know, a lot of people felt you know, repulsed

628
00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:23,160
Speaker 1: by it, but other people really seemed to brush it

629
00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:27,399
Speaker 1: off as quote unquote locker room talk. That's such an

630
00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:32,000
Speaker 1: overused excuse. It's like boys will be boys, and you know,

631
00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:34,239
Speaker 1: or in the Harvey Weinstein story, while he was a

632
00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:37,759
Speaker 1: you know, a product of the sixties and seventies, Nah,

633
00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:40,439
Speaker 1: my grandparents didn't treat yet treat each other that way.

634
00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:43,920
Speaker 1: They were born in the nineteen hundreds. Um, my dad

635
00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:46,080
Speaker 1: doesn't treat my mom that way, and he's eighty three

636
00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:49,200
Speaker 1: and my mom's seventy six, So you know, those are

637
00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:51,759
Speaker 1: just all lame excuses to try to pass the buck

638
00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:55,200
Speaker 1: and not really delve into the issue at hand. Well,

639
00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:59,279
Speaker 1: and perversely, the grabbed him by the pussy comment may

640
00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:03,880
Speaker 1: have helped UM because it was so memorable and so

641
00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:10,280
Speaker 1: striking that it obscured all of the allegations of behavior,

642
00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:14,520
Speaker 1: not just talk. The miss us A contestant who said

643
00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:17,680
Speaker 1: that she was assaulted, the woman who said that he

644
00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:21,200
Speaker 1: groped her on a plane, the People magazine writer that

645
00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:24,480
Speaker 1: you mentioned who said that she was assaulted at maral Lago,

646
00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:28,520
Speaker 1: ironically while writing a profile about his happy marriage. UM,

647
00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:31,600
Speaker 1: the miss ten USA contestants, and and all that people

648
00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:36,200
Speaker 1: seem to remember is that one tape which could be

649
00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:39,440
Speaker 1: dismissed as locker room talk. Although you know, as my

650
00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:41,960
Speaker 1: father and his sixties said, he's been in a lot

651
00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:44,200
Speaker 1: of locker rooms and he's never heard that kind of talk.

652
00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:48,600
Speaker 1: I think a lot of professional athletes said the same. Yeah,

653
00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:50,560
Speaker 1: and I mean I'm married to a sports agent. He

654
00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:52,839
Speaker 1: also said the same, And I love sports and I've

655
00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:55,600
Speaker 1: been in my share flocker rooms as well, and not

656
00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:58,040
Speaker 1: quite heard that. Again, this is just this is an excuse,

657
00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:00,720
Speaker 1: but you know, for well, to be fair to Trump's voters,

658
00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:03,399
Speaker 1: or at least some of Trump's voters, many of them

659
00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:06,799
Speaker 1: said that these comments bothered them. It wasn't that these

660
00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:10,840
Speaker 1: comments were okay. It was that they voted for him anyway,

661
00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:14,239
Speaker 1: based on other issues or dislike of Hillary Clinton or

662
00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:17,000
Speaker 1: whatever it was. I mean, I there was a stat

663
00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:19,400
Speaker 1: in the exit poll that I think se of the

664
00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:22,279
Speaker 1: electorate thought that he didn't have the experience in the

665
00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:28,239
Speaker 1: temperament to be president, and yet he got of the vote. Well,

666
00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:31,120
Speaker 1: that's what I was saying in the beginning that and

667
00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:33,040
Speaker 1: I wrote a New York Times bet about this right

668
00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:36,680
Speaker 1: after the election, which was I guess that as a

669
00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:42,680
Speaker 1: society then we decided that political policies did supersede human decency.

670
00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:48,320
Speaker 1: Let's talk about some of the women who are featured

671
00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:51,000
Speaker 1: in your book and some of the things that you learned,

672
00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:55,400
Speaker 1: the common threads among the stories, what struck you the most?

673
00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:59,440
Speaker 1: I know you said that it happens to everyone, all ages,

674
00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:02,920
Speaker 1: at all levels of their careers. Um, what were some

675
00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:05,560
Speaker 1: of the common threads among the women you profiled and

676
00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:11,280
Speaker 1: heard from The pain and the shame and the agony.

677
00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:15,440
Speaker 1: And I would just wait for it. After a while,

678
00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:17,759
Speaker 1: when I started talking to all of them where they

679
00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:22,760
Speaker 1: would say the boys club, that just became a common phrase.

680
00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:25,719
Speaker 1: And that was so shocking to me because I just

681
00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:29,279
Speaker 1: really believed in two thousand seventeen that we had overcome that.

682
00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:34,480
Speaker 1: But they all used that that term. I mean some

683
00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:36,600
Speaker 1: of them their experience had happened a long time ago,

684
00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:38,600
Speaker 1: but a lot of them it was going on right now.

685
00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:41,120
Speaker 1: I mean I feature in the book cases that are

686
00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:45,840
Speaker 1: still being adjudicated right now. So uh, it was interesting

687
00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:50,160
Speaker 1: that that has not changed over time. Maybe more than interesting,

688
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:55,880
Speaker 1: it was tragic, and so many other common threads about

689
00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:59,760
Speaker 1: how the minute that they complained, they were retaliated against,

690
00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:04,200
Speaker 1: and not just by men, but by other colleagues who

691
00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:07,319
Speaker 1: are women in their businesses. And this brings me to

692
00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:10,439
Speaker 1: the huge unanswered questions with this issue. I've been working

693
00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:12,000
Speaker 1: so hard on trying to answer so many of the

694
00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:15,960
Speaker 1: other questions and move this ball forward, but this is

695
00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:20,600
Speaker 1: the question that troubles me every night. Why as a

696
00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:26,200
Speaker 1: culture and society do we protect harassers. I don't know

697
00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:30,160
Speaker 1: why yet, but I have found that it's not just

698
00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:33,920
Speaker 1: protecting harassers who are the top money makers within the company.

699
00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:37,280
Speaker 1: I have countless stories in the book from women whose

700
00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:41,400
Speaker 1: harassers were low level male employees and the company still

701
00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:45,080
Speaker 1: protected them, so it wasn't like we got to protect

702
00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:48,120
Speaker 1: the CEO. Have you talked to people who are in

703
00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:52,200
Speaker 1: positions of responsibility and power at companies to get some

704
00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:55,520
Speaker 1: insight from them about sort of the corporate culture or

705
00:39:55,520 --> 00:39:59,320
Speaker 1: the company culture that would in fact side with someone.

706
00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:03,760
Speaker 1: Is it because it's there's so much built in sexism,

707
00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:08,040
Speaker 1: or is it expensive? You know, there must be an

708
00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:13,040
Speaker 1: explanation for it culturally and maybe perhaps financially. Nobody on

709
00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:14,640
Speaker 1: the record is going to tell you that, but I

710
00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:18,880
Speaker 1: wonder if you could get former CEOs or former human

711
00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:22,279
Speaker 1: resources people that might be interesting. Yeah, I mean, I

712
00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:25,960
Speaker 1: actually advocate in the book my progressive ideas for how

713
00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:28,960
Speaker 1: to handle this issue better in the workplace to help

714
00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:31,480
Speaker 1: move the ball forward. For example, maybe HR isn't the

715
00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:33,279
Speaker 1: right place to go and complain because you have to

716
00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:37,280
Speaker 1: remember that that HR representatives are getting paid by potentially

717
00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:41,400
Speaker 1: the harasser, and so is that the right mechanism for

718
00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:46,480
Speaker 1: which women and men should go to complain. So I

719
00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:49,120
Speaker 1: advocate in the book that it might be worthy for

720
00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:52,920
Speaker 1: companies to consider having an ambusman of sorts, where it's

721
00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:55,960
Speaker 1: an independent person, where people really feel like they can

722
00:40:56,000 --> 00:41:01,359
Speaker 1: go to somebody who's not going to retaliate against them. Right. So,

723
00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:03,360
Speaker 1: there are a lot of other things I advocate for

724
00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:06,640
Speaker 1: in the book, including bystander training and turning them into allies.

725
00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:11,600
Speaker 1: That's that's where we need you. And looking at you, Brian,

726
00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:14,680
Speaker 1: Brian or male friend, we need we need male to

727
00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:18,719
Speaker 1: males to become allies and not just bystanders. And by

728
00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:20,920
Speaker 1: the way, this shouldn't be on the shoulders of women

729
00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:24,799
Speaker 1: only to solve this, should we need men in the fight. Uh,

730
00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:26,640
Speaker 1: it's really actually more of a man's issue than it

731
00:41:26,719 --> 00:41:28,279
Speaker 1: is a women's issue. It just turns out that the

732
00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:31,560
Speaker 1: women are the ones who end up not working anymore well.

733
00:41:31,640 --> 00:41:33,160
Speaker 1: In fact, in the book you have a lot of

734
00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:37,520
Speaker 1: practical advice for both women and men to make this better.

735
00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:41,040
Speaker 1: Um at a time when you started a report that

736
00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:44,040
Speaker 1: shows worthplace harassments actually getting worse, which is hard to

737
00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:46,719
Speaker 1: believe in this day and age. I know I was

738
00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:50,319
Speaker 1: shocked by that. And that's that's only the cases that

739
00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:56,000
Speaker 1: are reported of people do not report anything, so imagine

740
00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:58,840
Speaker 1: how bad it really is. Can you run through some

741
00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:01,800
Speaker 1: of the advice that you would share with people about

742
00:42:02,160 --> 00:42:04,960
Speaker 1: you know, what to do if they're harassed to prevent harassment,

743
00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:07,200
Speaker 1: and what men should do in all of this. So

744
00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:10,320
Speaker 1: chapter four is actually my playbook, which is a twelve

745
00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:12,880
Speaker 1: point plan, and I really see it as a guide

746
00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:14,839
Speaker 1: book if you are actually going through harassment at work

747
00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:16,560
Speaker 1: right now, or just to hold on too, just in

748
00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:20,000
Speaker 1: case you too, ever unfortunately go through it. But I'll

749
00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:22,000
Speaker 1: just touch on a couple of the highlights, which is,

750
00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:23,680
Speaker 1: I think the most important thing is to call an

751
00:42:23,719 --> 00:42:26,399
Speaker 1: attorney first and foremost. I don't know, Brian, if you've

752
00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:29,839
Speaker 1: given out your number, but you know you have to call.

753
00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:32,240
Speaker 1: You have to call an attorney, just even for ten minutes,

754
00:42:32,480 --> 00:42:34,520
Speaker 1: and and just to say, here's what's happening to me.

755
00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:36,719
Speaker 1: What should I do? Do I have a case? And

756
00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:37,840
Speaker 1: the first thing they're gonna ask you is do you

757
00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:40,680
Speaker 1: have an arbitration class. That's going to be the first thing,

758
00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:44,000
Speaker 1: because then that's going to mean your muzzled. And and

759
00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:45,880
Speaker 1: so you know, this is why I'm doing so much

760
00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:47,640
Speaker 1: work on Capitol Hill, because we've gotta get rid of that.

761
00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:49,279
Speaker 1: I was gonna say, it's not as if you can

762
00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:51,560
Speaker 1: say hey, by the way, i'd love to come work

763
00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:53,200
Speaker 1: for you. Can you get rid of the arbitration? You

764
00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:56,680
Speaker 1: can't know, I know, But then they're gonna be like, yeah, thanks,

765
00:42:56,760 --> 00:42:58,879
Speaker 1: have a nice day, I know, good luck. So this

766
00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:00,759
Speaker 1: is why we need to attack it from the other way.

767
00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:04,320
Speaker 1: So that's the first thing. Call a lawyer. Second, document, document,

768
00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:08,840
Speaker 1: document right down when it's happening to you, what happened,

769
00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:14,320
Speaker 1: journal and keep it at home, Keep every email, text card,

770
00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:18,640
Speaker 1: any piece of evidence. Um. And then tell at least

771
00:43:18,640 --> 00:43:23,799
Speaker 1: two trusted colleagues, because if you don't have witnesses and

772
00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:26,960
Speaker 1: we're still in the he said, she said culture, then

773
00:43:27,280 --> 00:43:30,440
Speaker 1: you're probably not going to be believed. But especially if

774
00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:33,840
Speaker 1: you tell a male colleague and they come to your defense,

775
00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:36,520
Speaker 1: I think that makes all the difference in the world.

776
00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:39,960
Speaker 1: Those are three of my my twelve points. Um. So

777
00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:41,520
Speaker 1: people will have to check out the book to to

778
00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:45,719
Speaker 1: see the entire playbook. But but it's essential that you

779
00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:50,160
Speaker 1: have this plan because I think what women typically do

780
00:43:50,320 --> 00:43:51,799
Speaker 1: is because I think we have to work harder to

781
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:55,560
Speaker 1: get ahead in the workplace in general, when we're faced

782
00:43:55,560 --> 00:43:57,160
Speaker 1: with this kind of a circumstance, we think we can

783
00:43:57,200 --> 00:44:00,640
Speaker 1: overcome it. Because we've overcome so many other things, and

784
00:44:00,719 --> 00:44:03,240
Speaker 1: so we just push it off and keep working harder

785
00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:06,319
Speaker 1: and thinking it will change. And then one day we're like, well,

786
00:44:06,360 --> 00:44:08,160
Speaker 1: we can't take it anymore, and we might go and

787
00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:10,879
Speaker 1: file a complaint. And then the problem is you can't

788
00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:13,000
Speaker 1: put the genie back in the bottle and you don't

789
00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:17,640
Speaker 1: have a plan, and now you're literally screwed. I mean

790
00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:20,520
Speaker 1: because you can't go back and document, You can't go

791
00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:23,440
Speaker 1: back and gather evidence. You can't call an attorney and

792
00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:26,680
Speaker 1: say what should I do. You can't start telling trusted colleagues,

793
00:44:27,680 --> 00:44:30,320
Speaker 1: so now all that stuff. You can't save your performance

794
00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:33,680
Speaker 1: reviews in case you're retaliated against to see how they

795
00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:37,440
Speaker 1: might start changing. Now, this is why the plan is

796
00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:40,719
Speaker 1: is so important for women and men to have and

797
00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:42,919
Speaker 1: then decide what they want to use or what they don't.

798
00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:47,200
Speaker 1: You have to be smart and protect yourself. Yes, Gretchen,

799
00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:49,880
Speaker 1: what do you say to people who point out that

800
00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:53,399
Speaker 1: you wrote some warm words about Roger Ales in your

801
00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:57,280
Speaker 1: first book, which was a couple of years ago, and

802
00:44:57,280 --> 00:45:00,239
Speaker 1: and wonder why you did that, and also why it

803
00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:03,920
Speaker 1: took you so long to come forward and report his

804
00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:07,400
Speaker 1: harassment against you. Well, in general, I can just say

805
00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:11,319
Speaker 1: that it's a classic sign of somebody who's going through

806
00:45:11,360 --> 00:45:15,360
Speaker 1: sexual harassment to do everything in their power to try

807
00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:18,480
Speaker 1: and improve their situation in the workplace, and that includes

808
00:45:18,520 --> 00:45:23,520
Speaker 1: writing flowery and smiley face notes, because as I just mentioned,

809
00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:26,160
Speaker 1: women in particular think that the harder they work, the

810
00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:28,480
Speaker 1: better the situation will become, and that you can overcome it,

811
00:45:28,719 --> 00:45:31,520
Speaker 1: and so you will do everything in your power to

812
00:45:31,560 --> 00:45:35,480
Speaker 1: try and make your life better. Number Two, why this

813
00:45:35,560 --> 00:45:37,160
Speaker 1: is the number one myth that I write about in

814
00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:39,760
Speaker 1: the book. Why did you just not come forward sooner?

815
00:45:40,440 --> 00:45:43,359
Speaker 1: And I mean, I think we've talked about this. It's

816
00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:48,800
Speaker 1: an excruciating choice because you know what's going to probably

817
00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:52,520
Speaker 1: happen to you in the workplace, troublemaker, demoted, possibly fired,

818
00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:56,920
Speaker 1: and culturally as well. It's not just in the workplace,

819
00:45:56,920 --> 00:45:59,279
Speaker 1: it's how are people going to perceive you on the outside.

820
00:45:59,320 --> 00:46:01,040
Speaker 1: And this is what we need to change, And this

821
00:46:01,120 --> 00:46:04,200
Speaker 1: is what I feel like we're moving towards changing now

822
00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:06,960
Speaker 1: with more and more people coming out and and this

823
00:46:07,080 --> 00:46:09,920
Speaker 1: becoming a national dialogue for the last ten days to

824
00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:13,280
Speaker 1: two weeks, and still we're talking about it. That's good.

825
00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:17,440
Speaker 1: That starts to make these changes so that we flip

826
00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:20,759
Speaker 1: it one degrees from being a troublemaker to being a hero.

827
00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:24,040
Speaker 1: You know, that's really how we should be looking at

828
00:46:24,080 --> 00:46:26,920
Speaker 1: these situations. Do you worry about the backlash? It seems

829
00:46:26,920 --> 00:46:31,120
Speaker 1: to me the pendulum swings repeatedly and then so many

830
00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:34,080
Speaker 1: people are coming forward, so many people are standing up,

831
00:46:34,160 --> 00:46:37,680
Speaker 1: so many people are using the hashtag me too. Do

832
00:46:37,719 --> 00:46:40,640
Speaker 1: you worry that then suddenly people are, like I saw

833
00:46:40,760 --> 00:46:43,440
Speaker 1: today Woody Allen not sure if he's the best person

834
00:46:43,560 --> 00:46:46,080
Speaker 1: to be quoting on this fear as a witch hunt.

835
00:46:46,600 --> 00:46:49,520
Speaker 1: He's irrelevant on this, right, But I'm just saying that

836
00:46:49,560 --> 00:46:53,719
Speaker 1: I think some people probably are concerned that it's going

837
00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:56,440
Speaker 1: to be too much. How do you find some kind

838
00:46:56,480 --> 00:47:00,400
Speaker 1: of balance where there isn't a backlash? No, actually, I

839
00:47:00,960 --> 00:47:05,040
Speaker 1: don't see the backlash happening In my own personal experience.

840
00:47:05,680 --> 00:47:09,480
Speaker 1: I've seen it actually curb the social media trolls that

841
00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:12,800
Speaker 1: have been coming after me, because well, first of all,

842
00:47:12,960 --> 00:47:15,040
Speaker 1: it's always fun to call out a few of them,

843
00:47:15,080 --> 00:47:17,400
Speaker 1: but also, you know, to say, this is exactly what

844
00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:19,799
Speaker 1: the problem is, that we're battling these people like this.

845
00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:22,799
Speaker 1: But number two, I think that the more and more

846
00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:27,000
Speaker 1: people that are speaking out. It makes the trolls voices

847
00:47:27,239 --> 00:47:32,440
Speaker 1: less significant, and even somewhere in their pea brains they

848
00:47:32,480 --> 00:47:35,399
Speaker 1: are determining, oh my gosh, maybe I won't tweet this

849
00:47:35,920 --> 00:47:40,520
Speaker 1: right because so many people are tweeting support that suddenly

850
00:47:40,600 --> 00:47:42,920
Speaker 1: they're on their the back of their heels. That's been

851
00:47:42,960 --> 00:47:45,080
Speaker 1: my experience over the last ten days. I feel like

852
00:47:45,120 --> 00:47:50,360
Speaker 1: this massive, appropriate shaming of this kind of behavior is

853
00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:52,960
Speaker 1: really going to make a lot of people think twice

854
00:47:53,360 --> 00:47:56,720
Speaker 1: and the workplace. No, they may not be Harvey weinstains,

855
00:47:56,840 --> 00:48:01,799
Speaker 1: but you know the fact that the repercussions have been

856
00:48:02,040 --> 00:48:07,160
Speaker 1: so swift and so intense, and the shame so enormous.

857
00:48:07,560 --> 00:48:09,839
Speaker 1: Now he's on the cover of Time magazine, and I

858
00:48:09,880 --> 00:48:15,640
Speaker 1: believe it says producer predator pariah. And I think that

859
00:48:15,920 --> 00:48:19,120
Speaker 1: probably so many people see that and they think, not

860
00:48:19,239 --> 00:48:24,320
Speaker 1: only in Hollywood, but all across the country, oh wow, uh,

861
00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:27,160
Speaker 1: look what. I don't want to be that guy on

862
00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:29,280
Speaker 1: the cover of Time magazine. I don't want to be

863
00:48:29,400 --> 00:48:33,280
Speaker 1: that guy in my community or in my company. That's

864
00:48:33,360 --> 00:48:36,160
Speaker 1: the hope, And that's what I wrote in my recent

865
00:48:36,160 --> 00:48:38,560
Speaker 1: New York Times op ed is Predators. This is a

866
00:48:38,600 --> 00:48:42,160
Speaker 1: warning shot because now that more and more people are

867
00:48:42,160 --> 00:48:44,160
Speaker 1: speaking out. You could be next. I feel like it's

868
00:48:44,160 --> 00:48:45,960
Speaker 1: a shot through the heart. I feel like it's even

869
00:48:46,000 --> 00:48:49,160
Speaker 1: more than a warning shot. I think that it's a

870
00:48:49,160 --> 00:48:53,680
Speaker 1: clear signal to people everywhere that this behavior is not

871
00:48:53,719 --> 00:48:56,600
Speaker 1: going to be tolerated. And it will be interesting to

872
00:48:56,600 --> 00:48:59,480
Speaker 1: see if this has staying power. But so look at

873
00:48:59,520 --> 00:49:01,440
Speaker 1: what happened. When we take it out of the shadows

874
00:49:01,440 --> 00:49:06,920
Speaker 1: of secrecy, everything changes. I mean, that's why I'm fighting

875
00:49:07,000 --> 00:49:10,880
Speaker 1: so hard to take the secrecy element out, because the

876
00:49:11,000 --> 00:49:15,520
Speaker 1: minute that it's this public we're talking about that, we've

877
00:49:15,520 --> 00:49:18,000
Speaker 1: put the shame from the women to the right people.

878
00:49:19,120 --> 00:49:24,040
Speaker 1: Roger Ale's downfall was almost Shakespearean. Um. And I'm curious

879
00:49:24,080 --> 00:49:27,000
Speaker 1: how you felt, Gretchen the day you heard that he

880
00:49:27,160 --> 00:49:34,320
Speaker 1: had passed away. UM. I can't comment on any thought

881
00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:36,520
Speaker 1: or feeling that I had. I mean, I shouldn't. We

882
00:49:36,600 --> 00:49:41,000
Speaker 1: chose not to comment publicly. I just was curious. It

883
00:49:41,080 --> 00:49:44,440
Speaker 1: must have been a strange sort of sensation for you.

884
00:49:44,600 --> 00:49:45,680
Speaker 1: I mean, the only thing I can say is that

885
00:49:45,760 --> 00:49:48,000
Speaker 1: every day since I have filed suit has been surreal.

886
00:49:48,280 --> 00:49:50,400
Speaker 1: I mean, I could have never predicted how any of

887
00:49:50,440 --> 00:49:54,120
Speaker 1: those days would have happened. Or turned out that I'd

888
00:49:54,160 --> 00:49:56,960
Speaker 1: be sitting here talking about my book be fears. I mean,

889
00:49:57,360 --> 00:49:59,160
Speaker 1: who would have known? Who would have known I'd be

890
00:49:59,200 --> 00:50:01,120
Speaker 1: sitting here as one of the phases of sexual harassment.

891
00:50:01,120 --> 00:50:03,839
Speaker 1: I certainly didn't choose that for myself. Do you think

892
00:50:03,880 --> 00:50:08,359
Speaker 1: the atmosphere at Fox News has changed? I have no idea. Well,

893
00:50:08,560 --> 00:50:10,640
Speaker 1: certainly you know people who work there. Do you think

894
00:50:10,680 --> 00:50:14,239
Speaker 1: I don't think any of them? None of them? I

895
00:50:14,280 --> 00:50:17,799
Speaker 1: guess you hope it's gotten better. No, I don't really care.

896
00:50:20,320 --> 00:50:25,840
Speaker 1: I'm really concerned about helping the millions of other women

897
00:50:25,840 --> 00:50:28,040
Speaker 1: and men across the country, so many of who have

898
00:50:28,160 --> 00:50:31,880
Speaker 1: reached out to me, and there's so much work to

899
00:50:31,960 --> 00:50:34,600
Speaker 1: do in other places that I can't I can't be

900
00:50:34,640 --> 00:50:38,120
Speaker 1: worried or bothered about that. So, Gretchen, what's your reaction

901
00:50:38,239 --> 00:50:42,360
Speaker 1: to the Trump administration weakening the standard to judge whether

902
00:50:42,440 --> 00:50:46,319
Speaker 1: a student in college is guilty of sexual assault. A

903
00:50:46,360 --> 00:50:50,960
Speaker 1: lot of people feel like the Obama administration overcorrected by

904
00:50:51,040 --> 00:50:54,520
Speaker 1: saying the lowest standard of proof is the one that

905
00:50:54,560 --> 00:50:57,680
Speaker 1: should be used, and the Trump administration responded by raising

906
00:50:57,680 --> 00:50:59,759
Speaker 1: the standard of proof because they said that the old

907
00:51:00,000 --> 00:51:04,240
Speaker 1: policey was unfair to those who are accused of sexual assault.

908
00:51:05,760 --> 00:51:09,239
Speaker 1: This whole topic drives me crazy because I feel like

909
00:51:10,080 --> 00:51:13,279
Speaker 1: these actions are taking place for politics instead of what

910
00:51:13,360 --> 00:51:16,920
Speaker 1: really needs to be happening on college campuses. And so

911
00:51:16,960 --> 00:51:19,080
Speaker 1: we either are all into something and just because a

912
00:51:19,120 --> 00:51:21,359
Speaker 1: Democrat did that, then a Republican comes along and takes

913
00:51:21,360 --> 00:51:22,839
Speaker 1: it all away, and you know, we could go on

914
00:51:22,880 --> 00:51:25,960
Speaker 1: and on and talk about both sides doing the same thing. Listen,

915
00:51:27,080 --> 00:51:29,839
Speaker 1: the majority of people who come forward and say they

916
00:51:29,840 --> 00:51:34,640
Speaker 1: were assaulted are telling the truth. It's a small minority

917
00:51:34,680 --> 00:51:39,280
Speaker 1: of cases where it turns out to be false accusations.

918
00:51:39,880 --> 00:51:42,680
Speaker 1: So yes, we need to make sure that we protect

919
00:51:43,080 --> 00:51:45,759
Speaker 1: those who are falsely accused. We wouldn't want that to

920
00:51:45,800 --> 00:51:50,120
Speaker 1: be our children. However, it seems to me that the

921
00:51:50,200 --> 00:51:52,759
Speaker 1: much greater problem is that one in five girls going

922
00:51:52,800 --> 00:51:55,640
Speaker 1: off to college are going to be sexually assaulted. And

923
00:51:55,680 --> 00:51:59,439
Speaker 1: that could be my daughter or anyone else who's listening. Daughter,

924
00:52:00,239 --> 00:52:03,640
Speaker 1: that to me, see her son, that's true, and so

925
00:52:04,760 --> 00:52:07,960
Speaker 1: that to me seems to be the paramount concern. I'm

926
00:52:07,960 --> 00:52:10,880
Speaker 1: not really sure that that number one on the list,

927
00:52:10,920 --> 00:52:13,879
Speaker 1: it's who's falsely accused. Yeah, we've seen news stories of that,

928
00:52:14,160 --> 00:52:17,000
Speaker 1: but then what that says, though, to culture is that

929
00:52:17,040 --> 00:52:19,640
Speaker 1: we makes a big deal about those that it almost

930
00:52:19,640 --> 00:52:22,239
Speaker 1: equals the playing field and makes it look like it's

931
00:52:22,280 --> 00:52:26,680
Speaker 1: fifty and and I don't think it is. So I

932
00:52:26,719 --> 00:52:28,680
Speaker 1: just wish we could take the politics out of it,

933
00:52:28,800 --> 00:52:31,240
Speaker 1: and you know, let's do what's best for our young people.

934
00:52:31,920 --> 00:52:35,879
Speaker 1: And to me, that's calling attention to the issue. As

935
00:52:35,880 --> 00:52:38,000
Speaker 1: I was telling people that we were going to be

936
00:52:38,040 --> 00:52:41,640
Speaker 1: interviewing you, Gretchen, the reaction, at least among a lot

937
00:52:41,640 --> 00:52:45,160
Speaker 1: of people I know, was that Fox and Friends, both

938
00:52:45,200 --> 00:52:49,200
Speaker 1: when you were anchoring it and today is a show

939
00:52:49,280 --> 00:52:54,759
Speaker 1: that's tilted against Democrats and and for the Republicans. Did

940
00:52:54,840 --> 00:52:58,640
Speaker 1: you feel when you were doing that program like you

941
00:52:58,680 --> 00:53:02,960
Speaker 1: were under pressure to look at the news through a

942
00:53:03,000 --> 00:53:08,279
Speaker 1: certain filter or was that reporting authentic to your view

943
00:53:08,320 --> 00:53:12,160
Speaker 1: of the news. I wish I could answer that, but

944
00:53:12,239 --> 00:53:14,560
Speaker 1: I can't. So you can't even talk about your your

945
00:53:14,920 --> 00:53:18,799
Speaker 1: professional news experiences. I can't talk about any experience at

946
00:53:18,840 --> 00:53:24,520
Speaker 1: Fox for eleven years. Okay, well worth a try. This

947
00:53:24,560 --> 00:53:26,080
Speaker 1: is why we have to change the way in which

948
00:53:26,080 --> 00:53:28,600
Speaker 1: we silence women. I mean, I can't think of a

949
00:53:28,600 --> 00:53:31,160
Speaker 1: better way to make my case. So as we as

950
00:53:31,160 --> 00:53:34,520
Speaker 1: we mentioned Gretchen, you quoted Lisa Bloom, who has represented

951
00:53:34,520 --> 00:53:38,400
Speaker 1: many women in harassment cases over the years. What was

952
00:53:38,520 --> 00:53:43,719
Speaker 1: your reaction to Lisa choosing to represent and defend Harvey Weinstein.

953
00:53:44,160 --> 00:53:50,840
Speaker 1: Disappointment because I know that my attorney who represented me,

954
00:53:51,960 --> 00:53:57,200
Speaker 1: who specializes in these types of cases, only represents the

955
00:53:57,800 --> 00:54:02,160
Speaker 1: plaintiff in the case. If you're a businesses representing women,

956
00:54:02,200 --> 00:54:04,480
Speaker 1: and that's what it should be. So I was I

957
00:54:04,520 --> 00:54:07,880
Speaker 1: was disappointed with that one thing, I think, which is

958
00:54:07,920 --> 00:54:11,400
Speaker 1: an interesting observation, and I don't know aggression if you

959
00:54:11,440 --> 00:54:14,880
Speaker 1: feel this way, but someone told me that one of

960
00:54:14,920 --> 00:54:18,640
Speaker 1: the reasons why this is becoming such front page news

961
00:54:19,000 --> 00:54:23,600
Speaker 1: is there many more female journalists who are making sure

962
00:54:23,680 --> 00:54:26,600
Speaker 1: that these stories are covered. I mean there are some

963
00:54:26,680 --> 00:54:30,120
Speaker 1: men too. Obviously, Ronning Pharaoh deserves a lot of credit

964
00:54:30,320 --> 00:54:36,120
Speaker 1: for his many months investigation of Harvey Weinstein. But that's

965
00:54:36,160 --> 00:54:39,680
Speaker 1: a really positive thing and I think that is really changing.

966
00:54:39,719 --> 00:54:42,360
Speaker 1: I remember when I was anchoring the CBS Evening News,

967
00:54:42,440 --> 00:54:45,320
Speaker 1: I tried to ensure that we did stories about dating

968
00:54:45,440 --> 00:54:49,160
Speaker 1: violence or sexual assault in the military, you know, stories

969
00:54:49,200 --> 00:54:51,680
Speaker 1: that were just not on the radar screens of my

970
00:54:51,800 --> 00:54:56,120
Speaker 1: male colleagues. And that is why it's so critically important

971
00:54:56,160 --> 00:55:00,800
Speaker 1: we have more women in these powerful decision making positions

972
00:55:00,800 --> 00:55:04,800
Speaker 1: in every profession and every profession Washington, d C. Where

973
00:55:04,840 --> 00:55:08,360
Speaker 1: we're enacting laws. There couldn't be a more important position

974
00:55:08,480 --> 00:55:11,759
Speaker 1: for women to have a voice. Um, And I just

975
00:55:11,760 --> 00:55:14,040
Speaker 1: want to mention that the fund that I've set up

976
00:55:14,800 --> 00:55:17,799
Speaker 1: after my story, Gift of Courage, is actually sponsoring a

977
00:55:17,880 --> 00:55:21,480
Speaker 1: leadership initiative for women to become more involved civically and politically.

978
00:55:21,840 --> 00:55:24,520
Speaker 1: It's called the Gretchen Carlson Leadership Initiative nine City Tour

979
00:55:24,640 --> 00:55:27,960
Speaker 1: starting next month. But here's the thing, it's helping underserved

980
00:55:28,000 --> 00:55:31,680
Speaker 1: women get involved. That's one thing that has also surfaced

981
00:55:31,719 --> 00:55:35,320
Speaker 1: in this whole conversation, you know, hashtag white girl problems.

982
00:55:35,800 --> 00:55:39,040
Speaker 1: And I think that some people of color feel that

983
00:55:39,080 --> 00:55:43,480
Speaker 1: there's an inordinate amount of attention spent on white women

984
00:55:43,719 --> 00:55:48,040
Speaker 1: where there's so much and what's commonly called intersectionality now

985
00:55:48,480 --> 00:55:52,200
Speaker 1: with women of color and this kind of treatment of

986
00:55:52,200 --> 00:55:57,600
Speaker 1: the workplace being much worse and not acknowledged as much.

987
00:55:57,680 --> 00:55:59,680
Speaker 1: Do you hope it will have a trickle down effect?

988
00:56:00,120 --> 00:56:01,759
Speaker 1: But I have to say, of all the women who

989
00:56:01,760 --> 00:56:03,920
Speaker 1: reached out to me, I would say that the demographics

990
00:56:03,920 --> 00:56:06,839
Speaker 1: were exactly what the demographics are in the United States, right,

991
00:56:06,840 --> 00:56:09,600
Speaker 1: But we don't hear necessarily about some of those women

992
00:56:09,680 --> 00:56:13,839
Speaker 1: in in sort of other position possibly, but I'm featuring them, um.

993
00:56:13,880 --> 00:56:15,760
Speaker 1: And also, I just want to say that this leadership

994
00:56:15,760 --> 00:56:18,600
Speaker 1: initiative that I'm doing is also for domestic violence victims

995
00:56:19,080 --> 00:56:24,439
Speaker 1: and in cities across the country. Unfortunately, predominantly those women

996
00:56:24,480 --> 00:56:28,640
Speaker 1: are minorities. So my initiative is going to help them

997
00:56:28,680 --> 00:56:31,520
Speaker 1: incredibly for free to be able to come and go

998
00:56:31,560 --> 00:56:34,360
Speaker 1: to workshops on both of those issues, get help from attorneys,

999
00:56:34,840 --> 00:56:37,360
Speaker 1: and learn how to become more civically and politically involved,

1000
00:56:37,400 --> 00:56:39,400
Speaker 1: because when you're a victim of those things you have,

1001
00:56:39,680 --> 00:56:41,880
Speaker 1: you feel like you don't have a voice on that issue,

1002
00:56:41,880 --> 00:56:43,440
Speaker 1: but you also feel like you don't have a voice

1003
00:56:43,440 --> 00:56:47,120
Speaker 1: on anything. And I want these women to know that

1004
00:56:47,160 --> 00:56:50,319
Speaker 1: their voice matters. So do you intend to really make

1005
00:56:50,400 --> 00:56:54,080
Speaker 1: this your life's work? Now? Do you miss television? Would

1006
00:56:54,120 --> 00:56:58,120
Speaker 1: you like to to do journalism again? This is obviously

1007
00:56:58,320 --> 00:57:02,440
Speaker 1: incredibly important, worthwhile work. But I'm just curious when you

1008
00:57:02,480 --> 00:57:05,560
Speaker 1: look kind of at the next ten years, what do

1009
00:57:05,600 --> 00:57:08,680
Speaker 1: you see yourself doing. I'm going to be working doing

1010
00:57:08,719 --> 00:57:11,879
Speaker 1: something because I've worked my whole life, but right now

1011
00:57:11,920 --> 00:57:14,799
Speaker 1: I'm doing four full time jobs. I'm way more busy

1012
00:57:14,800 --> 00:57:18,520
Speaker 1: than I ever was doing one TV job, and you know,

1013
00:57:19,440 --> 00:57:20,920
Speaker 1: I yeah, I hope to go back to TV. But

1014
00:57:20,960 --> 00:57:23,080
Speaker 1: I have to say this last fifteen months has given

1015
00:57:23,120 --> 00:57:26,320
Speaker 1: me great perspective, and I'm glad that I took this

1016
00:57:26,440 --> 00:57:30,720
Speaker 1: time to really sit back and take it all in

1017
00:57:31,840 --> 00:57:34,880
Speaker 1: and not just jump right back into any opportunity. And

1018
00:57:34,880 --> 00:57:38,080
Speaker 1: there's been a lot of inquiries and opportunities, but I

1019
00:57:38,080 --> 00:57:39,880
Speaker 1: don't think I was ready to go and do that

1020
00:57:39,920 --> 00:57:41,880
Speaker 1: because this is what I was meant to be doing

1021
00:57:42,000 --> 00:57:44,160
Speaker 1: right now, and if I wasn't going to do it,

1022
00:57:44,200 --> 00:57:47,040
Speaker 1: who was going to do it? So this first and

1023
00:57:47,080 --> 00:57:50,640
Speaker 1: foremost was important. And number two, the perspective that I've

1024
00:57:50,680 --> 00:57:53,680
Speaker 1: gained has really made me understand that whatever I go

1025
00:57:53,760 --> 00:57:56,400
Speaker 1: back to do, it's what I'm going to choose to

1026
00:57:56,400 --> 00:57:59,160
Speaker 1: go back to do. Plus, it must be really gratifying

1027
00:57:59,200 --> 00:58:03,080
Speaker 1: and satisfying to be a change agent and to be

1028
00:58:03,160 --> 00:58:06,760
Speaker 1: able to really dig in on a certain issue and

1029
00:58:06,840 --> 00:58:11,920
Speaker 1: effect change. Not many people can claim that true. And

1030
00:58:11,960 --> 00:58:14,640
Speaker 1: I have to say it's an incredibly emotional experience for me.

1031
00:58:15,000 --> 00:58:18,040
Speaker 1: You know, when I get emails from people after, especially

1032
00:58:18,040 --> 00:58:20,880
Speaker 1: after the Weinstein story broke, where my next door neighbor

1033
00:58:20,920 --> 00:58:22,720
Speaker 1: who's a good friend of mine, you know, wrote me

1034
00:58:22,760 --> 00:58:24,800
Speaker 1: an email and said her sixteen year old daughter had

1035
00:58:24,800 --> 00:58:28,120
Speaker 1: the news on that morning and turned to her and said, mom,

1036
00:58:28,280 --> 00:58:31,080
Speaker 1: none of this would have happened if Mrs Carlson hadn't

1037
00:58:31,120 --> 00:58:37,280
Speaker 1: done what she did. I mean, wow, it makes me

1038
00:58:37,400 --> 00:58:40,560
Speaker 1: take a step back, and I can get very emotional

1039
00:58:40,600 --> 00:58:42,160
Speaker 1: about that because I'm like, wait a minute, are they

1040
00:58:42,200 --> 00:58:46,480
Speaker 1: talking about me? You know, again, this is surreal experience.

1041
00:58:46,520 --> 00:58:49,360
Speaker 1: And I've gotten tons of those emails from you know,

1042
00:58:49,360 --> 00:58:50,880
Speaker 1: a woman I saw at a dinner party and she

1043
00:58:50,920 --> 00:58:53,000
Speaker 1: confided in me something that happened to her at work.

1044
00:58:53,320 --> 00:58:54,840
Speaker 1: And I actually said to her at the end, I said,

1045
00:58:54,880 --> 00:58:58,760
Speaker 1: you realize that was assault, right, And she was like no.

1046
00:59:00,000 --> 00:59:02,240
Speaker 1: And after the Weinstein story she wrote me an email

1047
00:59:02,280 --> 00:59:05,160
Speaker 1: and said, I just want to thank you again for

1048
00:59:05,240 --> 00:59:09,240
Speaker 1: your bravery and for helping me to acknowledge what happened

1049
00:59:09,240 --> 00:59:14,440
Speaker 1: to me was a crime. You know. Wow, those are

1050
00:59:14,480 --> 00:59:19,480
Speaker 1: just two examples. But you know, if if I've inspired

1051
00:59:20,160 --> 00:59:24,240
Speaker 1: hundreds or thousands more, then wow, this mission has been

1052
00:59:24,240 --> 00:59:27,680
Speaker 1: worth it. Well, Gretchen, I'm so grateful that you came

1053
00:59:27,720 --> 00:59:32,680
Speaker 1: by to talk about your book. Be fierce and good

1054
00:59:32,760 --> 00:59:37,120
Speaker 1: luck with everything. It will be fascinating to watch if

1055
00:59:37,200 --> 00:59:40,840
Speaker 1: real change is on the horizon or is already taking

1056
00:59:40,840 --> 00:59:46,400
Speaker 1: place in offices all across the country. I I get

1057
00:59:46,800 --> 00:59:50,200
Speaker 1: the sense that it really is a watershed moment that

1058
00:59:50,280 --> 00:59:53,720
Speaker 1: you helped create or at least paved the way for.

1059
00:59:54,800 --> 00:59:59,120
Speaker 1: And uh, it is very courageous of you to make

1060
00:59:59,160 --> 01:00:01,920
Speaker 1: this an important issue and to focus so much attention

1061
01:00:01,960 --> 01:00:06,280
Speaker 1: on it and help so many women who aren't famous

1062
01:00:06,320 --> 01:00:09,520
Speaker 1: and don't have the voice you have. Well, thank you

1063
01:00:09,560 --> 01:00:11,520
Speaker 1: for saying that. And if for people who know me

1064
01:00:11,560 --> 01:00:14,120
Speaker 1: incredibly well, they know that I never ever give up

1065
01:00:14,120 --> 01:00:16,840
Speaker 1: on an issue, so um, I'm bound and determined to

1066
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Speaker 1: make change on this one. Well, thank you so much,

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Speaker 1: Thank you Katie and Brian, Thanks Qutch, and we're all

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Speaker 1: rooting for you in this Um. It's it's extraordinary work

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Speaker 1: you're doing. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you

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Speaker 1: to our production team. That's Jeannah Palmer, our producer, nor Richie,

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Speaker 1: our production assistant, and Jared O'Connell our audio engineer. Alison

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01:00:42,400 --> 01:00:45,840
Speaker 1: Bresnick pulls the shows social media strings, and Emily Beena

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01:00:46,040 --> 01:00:50,080
Speaker 1: over at the Behemoth, Katie currekt Media helps make the

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Speaker 1: pod possible as well. Mark Phillips wrote our theme music.

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Speaker 1: And remember, if you want to keep up with us

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Speaker 1: on social media, you can find me under Katie Curic

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01:00:58,600 --> 01:01:01,920
Speaker 1: on Twitter and Instagram and Katie dot Curric on Snapchat.

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Speaker 1: I'm on Facebook and of course I'm on there all

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Speaker 1: the time, well mostly Instagram. Lately, I've been in Instagram freak.

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Speaker 1: Brian meanwhile tweets from at goldsmith b on Twitter and

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Speaker 1: he can be quite political. Indeed. And if you like

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Speaker 1: our show and you haven't already subscribed, what are you

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01:01:20,920 --> 01:01:24,439
Speaker 1: what are you waiting for? This is outrageous, um, please subscribe,

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01:01:25,160 --> 01:01:28,959
Speaker 1: rate and review it over at Apple Podcasts really helps

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01:01:29,040 --> 01:01:30,920
Speaker 1: us out. We get a couple of shekels every time

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Speaker 1: you do. No, not really, but we appreciate it nonetheless. Um,

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Speaker 1: and we'll talk to you next time.