Speaker 1: Zone Media.
Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to bear Offline. We are not a car.
Speaker 2: This is a podcast, not a car, and I am
Speaker 2: ed Zetra. Today we have returning champions Steve Burke of
Speaker 2: Gamers Nexus joining us to talk about a little company
Speaker 2: called Video. Hey doing Steve, I'm also not a car.
Speaker 2: Good stuff. I was just making sure, just checking are
Speaker 2: you triggered as well, because based on the Stanford video,
Speaker 2: there's an interview with Jensen woggot Stanford. He appears to
Speaker 2: have been both triggered but also not mad at the
Speaker 2: same time.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I mean he definitely seemed a little sensitive
Speaker 3: in that one.
Speaker 2: It's interesting, So just to be clear to the audience,
Speaker 2: there was an interview about a month ago or two
Speaker 2: ago with Jensen Huang on the Dwarkesh podcast, which is
Speaker 2: a podcast that's both very fluffy but also occasionally has
Speaker 2: sentient thoughts, and there was this bizarre bit where I
Speaker 2: forget what the question leading in was, It's something about
Speaker 2: China perhaps, and Jensen Wang just gets pissed on goes
Speaker 2: we are not a car. We are not a car,
Speaker 2: and it's just he.
Speaker 3: Also, I think that was the same podcast right where
Speaker 3: he was like, I'm not a loser. America is not
Speaker 3: a loser. We're not losers like he wound this.
Speaker 2: This is I say this as a I was a
Speaker 2: very fat child and I was bullied a great deal.
Speaker 2: Let me tell you something. When someone's saying they're not
Speaker 2: upset that they're not a loser, they are like they
Speaker 2: they are, just that's them saying it. Except I was.
Speaker 2: I was just large. I wasn't a five trillion dollar company.
Speaker 2: It really feels like Jensen is starting to go off
Speaker 2: the wheels a bit.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I don't know if it's because it could
Speaker 3: I guess it could be all the things. It could
Speaker 3: be he's gotten to a size where he just doesn't
Speaker 3: care anymore. Maybe he is so important he's just dropped
Speaker 3: like that's just how he is, and he's kind of
Speaker 3: dropped the actor, or you know, maybe it's a top
Speaker 3: endicit or I don't know.
Speaker 2: I think it's more likely that because here's the thing.
Speaker 2: If we're talking about this. A few episodes back in
Speaker 2: twenty twenty five, he was signing Woman's Boobs. He was
Speaker 2: he was all swaggy. He'd go out on stage at
Speaker 2: GtC and just be like, the more you buy, the
Speaker 2: more you say we're the best, and everyone was cheering
Speaker 2: for him and he was like a rock star. Now
Speaker 2: he seems like Boakeshpottel is twenty three years old. If
Speaker 2: a twenty three year old was it was rude to me.
Speaker 2: Other than the numerous times they are online, I would
Speaker 2: I would just be like, Okay, it's not that not
Speaker 2: that big a deal.
Speaker 3: Especially if your companies worth trillions of dollars.
Speaker 2: And the quote is just a quote. We are not
Speaker 2: we are not a car. We are not a car.
Speaker 2: The fact that I can buy this car brand one
Speaker 2: day and use another car brand the other day easy
Speaker 2: computing is not like that. There's a reason why why
Speaker 2: the XA six deal exists. There's a reason why ARM
Speaker 2: is so sticky. These ecosystems are hard to replace. Oh no,
Speaker 2: if that, I mean, like.
Speaker 3: It's not really a clean analogy.
Speaker 2: It's also the kind of thing. It's also insane that
Speaker 2: they've got to this point without having a cleaner one
Speaker 2: than that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, it's that's easy to poke holes. And
Speaker 3: I get what he's trying to say. I get it.
Speaker 3: Like the architecture is, yes, it's difficult to move off of.
Speaker 3: But also on the consumer side, which is what he's
Speaker 3: talking about with buying a car and then buying a
Speaker 3: different one, you can in fact do exactly that with GPUs.
Speaker 2: So like, yeah, I get what.
Speaker 3: He means more on the business side, but it is uh,
Speaker 3: I don't It's just such a sensitive topic for him lately,
Speaker 3: and I don't understand if that's coming from a place
Speaker 3: of insecurity or I don't know. Just at this point,
Speaker 3: you know who you need to have on It's not me.
Speaker 3: It's like a therapist, Toshy analyze. He's like a therapist
Speaker 3: to break down his mental state.
Speaker 2: A director's commentary style, thinking like well, okay, stop there.
Speaker 2: You see when he says he has a car, this
Speaker 2: is a sign that just like in here, he's he's
Speaker 2: gonna cry. But they paused there. I So my theory
Speaker 2: is and we kin, we kind of talked about this
Speaker 2: and then we're not dipped into it a tom But
Speaker 2: there was a short cell report from Corporate Research that
Speaker 2: came out that suggested that over twenty percent of Nvidia's
Speaker 2: fiscal year twenty twenty six revenue came from China, right
Speaker 2: through a company called Megaspeed. I think what it might
Speaker 2: be is that he really does need China. I think
Speaker 2: it may be as simple as he really needs China.
Speaker 2: He needs China so bad, and Chinese GPUs terrify him
Speaker 2: in a way that that he's like the he's perhaps
Speaker 2: not willing to willing to totally ye talk about. And
Speaker 2: also he's not scared of am D. I don't think them.
Speaker 2: I instincts are gonna get a scare and video at
Speaker 2: all that would require.
Speaker 3: I don't think so. I Also, I think a m
Speaker 3: D is a known quantity at this point for Johnson, Yeah,
Speaker 3: and their strategies are known, their technology is known. It's
Speaker 3: really it's the the unknown technologies and strategy is probably
Speaker 3: what he needs to worry about. And right now, most
Speaker 3: of that's coming from Chinese companies. There's there's a lot
Speaker 3: of them. I we have some coverage coming up on Yeah,
Speaker 3: on Chinese GPUs, the rise of them kind of like
Speaker 3: our rise of Chinese memory video and they get It's interesting.
Speaker 3: It's interesting to watch companies like Jaoshan, which makes CPUs,
Speaker 3: come to market and when they do in the consumer space,
Speaker 3: they get kind of ship on for being a couple
Speaker 3: generations behind, because I remember when some of their first
Speaker 3: cps came out and the early media reports that tested
Speaker 3: it were, oh, they're about the same as a three
Speaker 3: or four generation old Intel CPU, And like I the
Speaker 3: perspective was one of mockery. But I think that should
Speaker 3: really concern some of these companies because like, if you
Speaker 3: come from nowhere, Silicon is not an easy technology. Architectures hard,
Speaker 3: and if you come out of nowhere and you're like
Speaker 3: four generations back instantaneously, that should be pretty scary, I
Speaker 3: think for the companies that are in the space, because
Speaker 3: it's it's the getting started that's the hard.
Speaker 2: Part, right What do you mean by that? What is
Speaker 2: the getting started in this case?
Speaker 3: The getting started in this case, at least in the
Speaker 3: scope of China, is largely going to be things like
Speaker 3: figuring out your fab. So who's going to make the product?
Speaker 3: Do they have the technology to make it? And if
Speaker 3: they don't, how do you kind of work within the
Speaker 3: limitations of what you have access to?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 3: Because technically TSMC is not supposed to make products for
Speaker 3: like Chinese GPUs or I mean sometimes it kind of
Speaker 3: happens anyway, but in the past, but there's limitations of
Speaker 3: the fab that's a big challenge for them. And then
Speaker 3: there's also just the actual first coming up with an
Speaker 3: architectural design. Once you have that, you can iterate on
Speaker 3: it and make changes that advance it. But getting anything
Speaker 3: to work at all, that's that's the hard part, right.
Speaker 3: So once they pass that barrier and they have a
Speaker 3: fab that can make it from there, you just iterate.
Speaker 3: And as long as they have some customers, they yeah,
Speaker 3: they can like any other company, they just iterate. And
Speaker 3: if China has a built in pool of customers because
Speaker 3: they have restricted access to external hardware, then whether or
Speaker 3: not they're competitive, they're they're gonna have buy because yeah.
Speaker 2: Well the other thing is as well, and this is
Speaker 2: one of my own personal things is I also have
Speaker 2: to wonder if there's not this whole thing I've been
Speaker 2: said about data center's not getting built. And when I
Speaker 2: say that, because I always get one comment from someone saying,
Speaker 2: actually I just saw one being built near me, and uh,
Speaker 2: people just with I assume no object permanence, which like
Speaker 2: I sought one, even though I'm saying they're not getting finished.
Speaker 2: If that's the case, I imagine that's quite scary to get.
Speaker 2: Maybe this isn't it, but I imagine that's quite scary
Speaker 2: to Jensen as well, because if these things aren't getting
Speaker 2: built and China is saying we don't need these GPUs,
Speaker 2: then that makes vera Rubin a much weirder proposition as well,
Speaker 2: because it's like, Okay, if China doesn't need these and
Speaker 2: we don't have the space for the new ones, where
Speaker 2: would we buy the new ones or what would we
Speaker 2: do with these old ones? Do we just junk them?
Speaker 2: Is the walls kind of closing infamous to one?
Speaker 3: Yeah? I think so, I will say, though on the
Speaker 3: premier of death and are not being built. I'm not
Speaker 3: sure if you saw, but Oracle has a very nice
Speaker 3: beam in the ground, several of them.
Speaker 2: I love that. There's one photo I forget which data
Speaker 2: center is. There's just they put up the first steel
Speaker 2: beam I think in Wisconsin and there's one bloke with
Speaker 2: his hand on it and three others walking up. Yeah,
Speaker 2: And it's just it's so good because it's like, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: I've seen this in London a hundred times, like a
Speaker 2: bunch of guys with hard hats going or my yellow
Speaker 2: to it's going to take a minute or is it stable?
Speaker 2: We better lean on it another minute, mate. It's so
Speaker 2: it is funny watching that happen. But it is also
Speaker 2: so very weird that going back to the Stanford thing
Speaker 2: as well, at that moment where it's like, oh, thank
Speaker 2: you for triggering me again. These are children, These are children.
Speaker 2: These are children with questions that you should be ready for.
Speaker 2: But these are children. How do you and your seventeen
Speaker 2: thousand dollars leather jacket not just reflect these unless there
Speaker 2: are like very simple problems.
Speaker 3: Here on that. That one was interesting too because that
Speaker 3: segment he gets into I'm not sure who the guy
Speaker 3: was sitting with him. I assume someone who works for Stanford.
Speaker 3: He's the guy okay, yeah, yeah, yeah right, the guy
Speaker 3: fielding the questions, though he makes a count at one
Speaker 3: point where he says, you know, we at Stanford have
Speaker 3: a forty billion dollar endowment, and he's talking about how
Speaker 3: they're having trouble getting access to compute and GPUs and
Speaker 3: Jensen effectively me paraphrasing it, but not that much. He
Speaker 3: effectively says, you just need money, like you, And he
Speaker 3: talks about how the first thing he would do is
Speaker 3: cut a billion dollars and send it off to a
Speaker 3: cloud data data center service provider for compute, as opposed
Speaker 3: to you know, buying and having their own solution in house,
Speaker 3: which that I think also is it's concerning because it's
Speaker 3: the thing we've been worried about in then ssumer space
Speaker 3: for a while, which is that you'll own nothing. And
Speaker 3: you know, the companies.
Speaker 2: Right right, they want to get away from providing anything
Speaker 2: other than dumb clients, right.
Speaker 3: Except this is we're not talking about a guy who's
Speaker 3: saying he can't get a GPU for video games. We're
Speaker 3: talking about like a university that's considering whatever, hundreds of
Speaker 3: millions or a billion dollars of spend and Jensen's telling
Speaker 3: them to fuck off and use laptops to connect to
Speaker 3: a cloud provider. And to me, it just it kind
Speaker 3: of seems like they're being a lot more open with
Speaker 3: the concept that owning the devices is dead and it's
Speaker 3: all going to cloud, and that is he was talking about. Well,
Speaker 3: you know, you see people today, they all have a
Speaker 3: laptop and they connect and the compute's not local anymore.
Speaker 3: That's what he's talking about, and that should scare a
Speaker 3: lot of people.
Speaker 2: How likely do you think that actually is though, because
Speaker 2: know it just with the speed of internet connections, I
Speaker 2: just don't know what like I don't know how like
Speaker 2: practically it would be. But no, these people don't really
Speaker 2: give a fuck, Like I think that Jensen Wong doesn't
Speaker 2: give a fuck about other countries outside of how many
Speaker 2: GPUs they buy. But it's like I was on an airplane. Yes,
Speaker 2: I was on an airplane. It's one hundred years old,
Speaker 2: and like I could barely connect to the internet if
Speaker 2: at all. That alone makes me feel like this might
Speaker 2: not be or is the suggestion that this would be
Speaker 2: like a very classist thing. This would be like if
Speaker 2: you the only laptop you can afford is one that
Speaker 2: is effectively just a device that connects to the cloud.
Speaker 3: I do think you start to see it cause segregation
Speaker 3: by class in terms of access to hardware, although that's
Speaker 3: maybe not unique to this industry, but the the likelihood
Speaker 3: just to pull a number g fours now, which is
Speaker 3: the low end online gaming service game streaming to basically
Speaker 3: any device. Yeah, they claim to have thirty million users
Speaker 3: for that hu which seems like a lot.
Speaker 2: That also really yeah this is g force now.
Speaker 3: Yeah, g Force now, there's a public document that they
Speaker 3: talk about thirty million users.
Speaker 2: Yeah, thirty million users. I don't know that that just
Speaker 2: feels very I'm just thinking of the PC gaming industry,
Speaker 2: like I for something of that scale, you would, I
Speaker 2: just maybe I'm just terribly ignorant. That just feels very
Speaker 2: high to me, because like every other game streaming service.
Speaker 3: I mean, they might be pumping their numbers because they
Speaker 3: do have an AD supported free tier.
Speaker 2: Well here's the thing. I just looked this up while
Speaker 2: on air. There are thirty five million subscribers to Xbox
Speaker 2: Game Pass.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I'll find it very unlikely that video which has failed
Speaker 2: to like they failed every single other like software like
Speaker 2: the omniverse, you know your for you and my favorite subject,
Speaker 2: the omniverse like a terrible face. Have they ever succeeded
Speaker 2: with any kind of external thing other than hardware? Yeah,
Speaker 2: exactly not. I just I don't believe that they have
Speaker 2: nearly as many, even with an AD support thing.
Speaker 3: So they have a PDF called Nvidio dash Story pdf
Speaker 3: our Story twenty twenty five and in here is where
Speaker 3: they I'll have to send it to you, and here's
Speaker 3: where they. Yeah, over thirty million members in more than
Speaker 3: one hundred and ten countries now have access to more
Speaker 3: than nineteen hundred.
Speaker 2: Ah, there you go, there's your thirty million members over
Speaker 2: a nonspecific period now have access could theoretically use so
Speaker 2: that thirty million people have signed up and given an
Speaker 2: email address. Yeah beautiful.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and so like how how likely that is? I'm
Speaker 3: not sure, but that that's an interesting story because I
Speaker 3: just learned thanks to the recent Force Now partner breach, right, Yeah,
Speaker 3: that Nvidia has partners to propagate this service kind of
Speaker 3: like some kind of like a Wi Fi range extender.
Speaker 2: Makes sense, That makes some sense.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I guess that's to try and solve what
Speaker 3: you're talking about, which is the latency issue. I mean,
Speaker 3: the US is pretty willfully far behind right in a
Speaker 3: lot of places for Internet where it's just non viable.
Speaker 2: It's all just a very strange time. Actually, before I
Speaker 2: go any further though, what is this g Force breach
Speaker 2: you mentioned to me just before we came on the call,
Speaker 2: and I realized we should give it some an time.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's so the hacking group Shiny Hunters, or someone
Speaker 3: at least posing as them. It's kind of the funny
Speaker 3: thing with the hacking groups. It's difficult to verify. Sometimes
Speaker 3: they impersonate each other and there's no real good way
Speaker 3: to verify it. But a user representing Shiny Hunters posted
Speaker 3: on a breach forum basically dark web stuff with an
Speaker 3: offer to sell I think it was for one hundred
Speaker 3: thousand dollars a data packet where they claimed that they
Speaker 3: had breached and harvested data including two factor authentication information,
Speaker 3: Jesus access flags, usernames, dates of birth, things like that,
Speaker 3: and they're offering it for sale for I think it
Speaker 3: was one hundred grand I'd have to check. And that
Speaker 3: was on a forum they said. They wrote it as
Speaker 3: if they had compromised all of Nvidia G Force now
Speaker 3: and Video responded within a couple of days and said,
Speaker 3: we've looked into this. Nope, what they've compromised is one
Speaker 3: of our partners representing the Armenia region.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 3: And then Video kind of pointed the finger to just
Speaker 3: Armenia for the breach, that the partner actually does service
Speaker 3: other countries as well and regions, so like, I think
Speaker 3: it's I want to take Kazakhstan and news Backstan. And
Speaker 3: they didn't talk about if any of them were breached,
Speaker 3: so it could actually be wirer than Nvideo is representing.
Speaker 2: But anyway, doesn't I find it hard to believe in
Speaker 2: Video would misrepresents something.
Speaker 3: Yeah, straightforward, Yeah, never any slipper rewording.
Speaker 2: But let's change tag to China, China, China, China, and
Speaker 2: this is so you've got you. We just what matched
Speaker 2: us up for this episode was that GPU smuggling thing,
Speaker 2: and we can talk about the super micro stuff, which
Speaker 2: I think rocks. I think that I've this whole time.
Speaker 2: All of these scumbags have been scummy, but in a
Speaker 2: very boring way. There's not been any goofy science fiction
Speaker 2: share or hair dryers and the fact that this that
Speaker 2: Wali Leao was going one of the blokes was going
Speaker 2: into the warehouses and just kind of hair drying off
Speaker 2: the cereal them. But I know we might have talked
Speaker 2: about this last time, but it was funny enough to
Speaker 2: go over again. I love it. I think it's hilarious.
Speaker 3: And there were a lot of interesting things in the
Speaker 3: timeline where a lot of the stuff happened in August
Speaker 3: and some of the investigation in August, and that was
Speaker 3: the same time we ran our report and we were
Speaker 3: digging into some of that stuff too, and a lot
Speaker 3: of it matched what we found where you know, during
Speaker 3: our Black Market GP report, we did talk to Taiwanese
Speaker 3: company and a company that operates also in Singapore, and
Speaker 3: one of the things we learned was that they'll act
Speaker 3: as intermediaries where this one company I couldn't show them
Speaker 3: or anything on camera back then, but we talked about it. Yeah,
Speaker 3: they work to bring in nvidio. I want to say
Speaker 3: it was GB two hundred, Maybee three hundred, GB two
Speaker 3: hundred systems, so like actual racks of hardware. Yeah, like
Speaker 3: actual you know, full racks, and they'll bring them into
Speaker 3: Taiwan and run testing. So it's a testing house. They
Speaker 3: do pre testing before it gets deployed. They do configuration
Speaker 3: stuff like that on behalf of other companies, not for themselves,
Speaker 3: and their clients were in China. I remember talking to
Speaker 3: them about it because there's just showing us these GPU
Speaker 3: racks and explaining that, oh, we test it and you know,
Speaker 3: it's for a company in China that we work with,
Speaker 3: and they seemed somewhat oblivious to the fact that this
Speaker 3: is not supposed to happen as they were giving us
Speaker 3: all this information. Was it, yeah, go on, sorry, Yeah,
Speaker 3: So I mean they basically test it, forward it and
Speaker 3: that was what we reported, and that's also exactly what
Speaker 3: back last year Jensen was regularly talking about all these things.
Speaker 3: They weighed thousands of pounds. It's not like some small
Speaker 3: potato chip you can put in your pocket. Yeah right,
Speaker 3: And it's a total misrepresentation to your earlier point. And
Speaker 3: as far as we could tell, like this, this is
Speaker 3: not it's not like they're just smuggling in GPUs and
Speaker 3: crates of lobster and shrimp, which has also happened, by
Speaker 3: the way, but actually completed server product.
Speaker 2: But the thing is, I didn't realize. I guess you
Speaker 2: couldn't have set back then. I didn't realize it was
Speaker 2: an MVL seventy two.
Speaker 3: I'm not sure if it was an MVL seventy two,
Speaker 3: which it was a two hundred rack, I don't know
Speaker 3: how many were in there.
Speaker 2: But if it was like a full rank, that's still good.
Speaker 2: That was last year as well. If they had GB
Speaker 2: two hundreds, yeah, I mean I should have really us
Speaker 2: at the time, but like, well, I don't know if
Speaker 2: you could have actually disclosed. But that's the thing, Like,
Speaker 2: because these various reports, the super Micro one, the Culpur report,
Speaker 2: they will come back to a thing which is in
Speaker 2: video frames. It as oh, nothing has got through or
Speaker 2: if anything did. It's just a few things. You couldn't
Speaker 2: get the big stuff through. But every report seems to
Speaker 2: be like, yeah, entire racks are making it over. Yeah,
Speaker 2: we've got and they have dummy servers, which is the
Speaker 2: craziest shit they have just like fake ones.
Speaker 3: That's fascinating to me.
Speaker 2: I wonder what's in them.
Speaker 3: It's yeah, it is, I guess, brilliant and like it's
Speaker 3: a very dumb solution. I don't mean that in a
Speaker 3: mean way, right, Like it's just how do we how
Speaker 3: do we trick the inspectors, because basically inspectors will come
Speaker 3: through to ensure compliance, make sure that people who handle
Speaker 3: large amounts of these restricted GPUs, just like I guess
Speaker 3: handling large amounts of I don't know, if you're in
Speaker 3: the pharmaceuticals industry, there's probably some level of inspection also,
Speaker 3: and they inspect it, make sure it's compliant, and sign
Speaker 3: off on it. And so you work with third parties
Speaker 3: for this process and to pass inspection. They had, like
Speaker 3: you said, used hair dryers to remove serial numbers and labels,
Speaker 3: and then they had staged dummy servers that were compliant
Speaker 3: to kind of disguise the real operation that's the day.
Speaker 2: So I guess it's only a physical inspection.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm not sure. I was wondering that too, because
Speaker 3: I did read the entire report, and unfortunately the DJ
Speaker 3: had screenshots of the warehouse, but they didn't. It was
Speaker 3: like screenshots of surveillance camera footage, but no actual surveillance
Speaker 3: camera footage I can find. So from everything we know,
Speaker 3: it looks like a physical inspection. I don't know that
Speaker 3: there's ever a power on. If there is, though, you
Speaker 3: could still do dummy servers for that, but I'm not
Speaker 3: sure you know what it is.
Speaker 2: They It's good to turn out that you do more
Speaker 2: thorough testing than the DOJ, because think about like, I mean,
Speaker 2: you do this, you know obviously hundreds of times more
Speaker 2: than this about this than I do. But surely you
Speaker 2: could run a simple like load test on it or
Speaker 2: something that would like be like, okay, this could do this, Yeah, I.
Speaker 3: Mean you could. It's it's easier to make something underperform
Speaker 3: obviously than overperform, so if they need to bring something
Speaker 3: down to look like it's a lower and part, they could,
Speaker 3: But the probably really run into one physical inspection if
Speaker 3: someone knows that they're looking at you'll be able to
Speaker 3: identify it anyway, depending on what that entails. But two
Speaker 3: is on the software side. You can look at firmware
Speaker 3: and you can look at the diagnostics, and that stuff's
Speaker 3: pretty hard to trick. Normally can spoof things, but anyone
Speaker 3: who most yeah, it's just I'm not the government. What
Speaker 3: I can say is when I I spoke to people
Speaker 3: in DC last year, they had their tech guy in
Speaker 3: the room. These are staffers of Congress, and he seemed
Speaker 3: pretty okay actually, But there was a moment when I
Speaker 3: was talking about memory capacity ninety six gigabyte one twenty
Speaker 3: eight forty eight, things like that, and someone interrupted me
Speaker 3: and asked me to clarify if that number was the bandwidth,
Speaker 3: you know, and we're not talking in per second or anything.
Speaker 3: It was just gigabytes. It's like, no, that's capacity. And
Speaker 3: I needed to briefly explain kind of the you know,
Speaker 3: the difference. And I'm sure they have people who understand
Speaker 3: this stuff. Maybe just wasn't in the room, but but
Speaker 3: I did learn that they don't really have any sophisticated
Speaker 3: testing because the point I made it was like, look,
Speaker 3: restrict him or not. I don't really I don't know.
Speaker 3: I don't know if I care, But if you're going
Speaker 3: to restrict it, like at least do it in a
Speaker 3: way where it makes sense, where you can inform worse
Speaker 3: it And that would require some level of benchmarking, because
Speaker 3: right now the restrictions are done entirely based on the
Speaker 3: claimed performance metrics from the manufacturer, and the manufacturer knows
Speaker 3: a lot more about these GPUs obviously than the government.
Speaker 3: They can tweak the knobs to comply just barely right.
Speaker 3: And so the point being, yes, I think any bedroom
Speaker 3: benchmarker who's just started their YouTube channel probably is more sophisticated.
Speaker 3: And so yeah, that's why on Nvidia, you know, they're
Speaker 3: in just such a dominating position because they're they're up
Speaker 3: against people who don't understand their technology.
Speaker 2: So I'm reading off the Culper report here. So numerous
Speaker 2: experts told us that in Nvidia has long possessed the
Speaker 2: means to detect diversion, including pre sale signposts and standwood
Speaker 2: standard stand would Jesus standard KYC checks e g. Recently
Speaker 2: incorporated customer suddenly placed in large orders with that warranties,
Speaker 2: as well as post sale technical indicators server IP data
Speaker 2: mismatch server latency times and surfers going dark. With that explanation,
Speaker 2: because that's the thing. I assume that in video must
Speaker 2: have some connection to every GPU, right, maybe not completely
Speaker 2: phone home.
Speaker 3: But yeah, they should know. I mean it's they do know.
Speaker 2: So I'm not saying they know for sure, because that
Speaker 2: would obviously be impossible to verify. But I don't see
Speaker 2: how they don't know.
Speaker 3: I mean, it's the professor we spoke with last year
Speaker 3: for a documentary. I asked him the question, you know,
Speaker 3: do you think Nvideo knows? And his response was how
Speaker 3: could they not? These things are valuable. You'd think they'd
Speaker 3: keep very good track of every single one of them.
Speaker 2: I just I'm wondering. So let's back to the wider
Speaker 2: AI bubble with in video GPS, especially like the next
Speaker 2: generation and then the generation after that, so Vera Rubin
Speaker 2: one and then Vera Rubin two, which is the one
Speaker 2: megawatt scale racks. It's I feel like I'm taking crazy
Speaker 2: pills when I talk about this stuff, because when you
Speaker 2: actually think about it, if they indeed, I think it's
Speaker 2: moving to Kuyber racks, they call them the one megawa once.
Speaker 3: Okay, Kyber, I'm not familiar with, doesn't.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's the next one that will mean that
Speaker 2: the majority of I mean, all data centers are useless,
Speaker 2: as in, you can't just install a one megawatt rack
Speaker 2: in a data center that's full of that much more distributed,
Speaker 2: even one hundred megawats because just the power requirements. And
Speaker 2: it's just it feels like at some point in Nvidia
Speaker 2: is going to escalate too far that they just won't
Speaker 2: understand that. They will just think our customers have unlimited
Speaker 2: money and will do whatever we want.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, in some way, it seems like I
Speaker 3: feel like they're starting to address some of that by
Speaker 3: having now the government as more of a potential customer
Speaker 3: as well, where I don't know if it's like you
Speaker 3: run out of money from private equity and you turn
Speaker 3: to government or what is going on, but they definitely
Speaker 3: have gotten a lot more interested in military.
Speaker 2: Uh. But even then, if the data center is all
Speaker 2: getting built because Oracles giving them a bunch of GPUs,
Speaker 2: we know that, right, And it's just I I don't know,
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know how this ends, but I'm
Speaker 2: also just I don't know how this continues.
Speaker 3: I think, to me, the real top indicator, And I
Speaker 3: don't know. I mean, like the market's probably after I
Speaker 3: say that, the market's gonna fucking rip for like the
Speaker 3: next yea, three years or whatever, you know. But I'm
Speaker 3: not a market guy. But like the point is to me,
Speaker 3: the thing that jumped out as like, oh this this
Speaker 3: reminds me of like Crypto when it was getting too crazy?
Speaker 3: Is this company Span. Did you hear about them? I'd
Speaker 3: never heard of them.
Speaker 2: Oh you mean the distributed thing?
Speaker 3: Yes, Oh they want to do distributed like many component
Speaker 3: of a data center right there in your yard. Yeah,
Speaker 3: right where you want it with RTX pro six thousands,
Speaker 3: which is like I hope they change the power connection
Speaker 3: from twelve high power so it doesn't catch on fire.
Speaker 3: But the plan I don't really get it, Like it's
Speaker 3: it seems like so the idea of the concept is
Speaker 3: we're gonna put this nice box in your yard that
Speaker 3: kind of resembles like an air conditioning unit on the ground,
Speaker 3: and it's gonna have hardware in it to distribute the
Speaker 3: compute capacity across a wider area where there's maybe easier access.
Speaker 3: You don't need to go through all these pesky zoning laws,
Speaker 3: and maybe you partner with an hoa with three hundred
Speaker 3: houses in the neighborhood, or your partner with individual homeowners
Speaker 3: or whatever, and they say they'll give you discounts on
Speaker 3: your energy, which is silly because it's like the energy
Speaker 3: costs you're going up because of data centers. Yeah, so
Speaker 3: that was a small one in your yard and discounted
Speaker 3: after we've increased it, which is like at best, you're
Speaker 3: back to where you were. And yeah, and the whole thing.
Speaker 3: I just it's like the latency. It's not going to
Speaker 3: work for massive important projects. It works for smaller stuff,
Speaker 3: I guess, But I don't understand how this idea comes
Speaker 3: to fruition. And I also wonder how do you stop
Speaker 3: the tweakers from opening the box and stealing all the copper,
Speaker 3: Cause like.
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is that. And there's also oh no, I
Speaker 2: was unfortunate enough to live in an ha community several
Speaker 2: years ago. It was truly awful. And I'll tell you,
Speaker 2: even in a nice place, the electric is bullshit like that.
Speaker 2: I had to replace the circuit breaker or whatever you
Speaker 2: call like you're going to have to do that in
Speaker 2: every single house in the development, and probably a bunch
Speaker 2: of the transmission lines just to make sure that I
Speaker 2: don't know if they're generating Marmaduke with a seventh crashing
Speaker 2: at seven or seven, like that is going to like
Speaker 2: cause a blackout in the neighborhood. How do you prioritize
Speaker 2: power in the neighborhood?
Speaker 3: That was my question too, Like in a winter storm,
Speaker 3: who gets priority right and and.
Speaker 2: You know, just run the JPUS.
Speaker 3: That's true, that's solved it. Yeah, I mean it's but
Speaker 3: that reminds me of the crypto stuff where I remember
Speaker 3: during one of the crypto peaks mining there were these
Speaker 3: space heaters where it's like, buy our space heater and
Speaker 3: it's actually just a miner and it makes you money,
Speaker 3: but also it's a space heater. And there was some
Speaker 3: other one I remember where it was you know, the
Speaker 3: mind money goes to them, like they get that, but
Speaker 3: you get free space heating. And it just sounds an
Speaker 3: awful lot like the distributed data center thing. I just
Speaker 3: I don't know, it seems too we've like lost the
Speaker 3: plot on this, you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it feels like one of those theoretical things
Speaker 2: that comes with the end of any era, like towards
Speaker 2: the end of the Metaverse era, there was the whole
Speaker 2: thing about people buying millions of dollars of real estate. Yeah,
Speaker 2: that was one of the last ones. But the real,
Speaker 2: the real final one for me was the Other Side.
Speaker 2: Do you remember other side from the board apes, the
Speaker 2: board apes, the board apes, the other side, and it
Speaker 2: was just they were like, look, we've finally done it.
Speaker 2: We've got the Other Side demo, and it was just
Speaker 2: a giant open world. We're just let you And you
Speaker 2: didn't get to go in as the ape you owned.
Speaker 2: Oh great, okay, he went as just a a regular
Speaker 2: not a regular ape. They were like these kind of
Speaker 2: gorillas rip offs.
Speaker 3: So they've realized, yeah, this is like yeah metaverse. I
Speaker 3: had the same feeling. Or it's just you look at
Speaker 3: it and you kind of go, do you You guys
Speaker 3: know that video games have already.
Speaker 2: Ex exactly like I was playing EverQuest like back in
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety nine, like I I know how this goes,
Speaker 2: and I didn't have to pay one hundred thousand dollars
Speaker 2: for my character. I just had to give up most
Speaker 2: of my life. Yeah, I just had to play for
Speaker 2: eleven hours a day to make level fifty. Those of
Speaker 2: us pre kunok people, k u nar k. This is
Speaker 2: the second expansion. It was much harder, very unfair of
Speaker 2: those of us.
Speaker 3: Plans of power.
Speaker 2: So damn do pop was good place of powers? Like
Speaker 2: the end of the end of how good that was?
Speaker 2: I like though, the whole planes of time thing. I
Speaker 2: don't know if you followed that.
Speaker 3: I did a little bit.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the collapse of everquests with the fires of Heaven.
Speaker 2: Oh anyway, we shouldn't talk about that, so all I'll
Speaker 2: talk about. But with the other side metaverse, that was
Speaker 2: what I think was the top was when everyone went
Speaker 2: in this big session. But what's crazy is they are
Speaker 2: still doing this. They're still doing the metaverse that they're
Speaker 2: still going to limp along, which may which I think
Speaker 2: is what's going to happen with the AI bubble. I
Speaker 2: think it bursts, but there's going to be like a
Speaker 2: cloister of perverts who still try and keep this going.
Speaker 2: And it's just insanely expensive.
Speaker 3: That's a that's a brilliant strain of words. You've just.
Speaker 2: Yes, that's just right off the dough. Just think it's
Speaker 2: inspired by these people because it's like, I, have you
Speaker 2: been I realized someone off the topic of GPS, have
Speaker 2: you've been following this git hub co pilot thing as well.
Speaker 3: I only just saw the headlines. Like g hub that
Speaker 3: I've been following lately has been the Bamboo lab situation,
Speaker 3: but I have not seen the one you were.
Speaker 2: Talking about now. It's just that they're switching the token
Speaker 2: based bailing on June first, and the subreddit is just
Speaker 2: people being like, hey, so I'm able to burn a
Speaker 2: thousand dollars worth of tokens to ten dollars. Does anyone
Speaker 2: know if there's an alternative to do this? And just
Speaker 2: people being like, yeah, anthropic, I guess, And it's just
Speaker 2: people realizing in real time how much this ca I
Speaker 2: think the I think you're going to see a rush
Speaker 2: of people to try and do this on a hardware,
Speaker 2: and a rush of people to try and like buy
Speaker 2: up old GPUs and try and do the post dot
Speaker 2: com bubble thing. But it's not gonna work because there
Speaker 2: is no there's absolutely nothing, like, there's no way to
Speaker 2: make this economically viable. And I think the lost it's
Speaker 2: gonna be like all I was about, say the Alamo Star,
Speaker 2: but like a just like a final stand of just
Speaker 2: guys burning out the remaining capital until it all falls apart.
Speaker 3: I absolutely do wonder. I mean, it's it's the PC
Speaker 3: industry and the DIY industry. Yeah, seems to be the
Speaker 3: first casualty of AI. And it's it's like AI is
Speaker 3: born and then it immediately kills the thing it was
Speaker 3: born from, you know. Yeah, And so I'm not sure,
Speaker 3: like even if the bubble bursts, there's gonna be a
Speaker 3: lot of damage.
Speaker 2: First there was I was gonna was going to ask, like, what,
Speaker 2: let's just see who the bubble busts and the AI
Speaker 2: rolls back and the in video is no longer only
Speaker 2: selling those GPUs. Isn't that like a significant amount of
Speaker 2: damage to the supply chain of PCAs?
Speaker 3: Oh? Yeah, I mean people can't do business with this climate,
Speaker 3: because it's interesting where RAM prices are a lot to
Speaker 3: do with where we're at now with the PC industry,
Speaker 3: but a lot of I guess people who aren't in
Speaker 3: PC building may or may not realize, but there's a
Speaker 3: lot of other component manufacturers who have absolutely no control
Speaker 3: over any of this. So even though the RAM is
Speaker 3: expensive and the GPUs are hard to get her expensive
Speaker 3: and whatever, the company that makes cool arty computer cases,
Speaker 3: they don't have any control here. And so they're just
Speaker 3: a loan for the ride. And historically those types of
Speaker 3: companies liquid coolers that you know, enthusiast air coolers, cases, whatever,
Speaker 3: they live and die, buy GPU and CPU launch cycles
Speaker 3: to where they need to have their best product lined
Speaker 3: up for the new architecture launch. So if something comes
Speaker 3: out now, then eighteen to twenty four months for now
Speaker 3: they need to have their next big thing ready. And
Speaker 3: now the cycles are lengthening.
Speaker 2: For those which what do you mean by that? As
Speaker 2: in there is they're skipping a year of conceiving GPUs.
Speaker 3: The architectural cadence for Nvidia has slowed for a while.
Speaker 3: They were like roughly eighteen months. For a little bit,
Speaker 3: they tended to average twenty four months between major architectural launches,
Speaker 3: and now they're moving closer to thirty months. And for
Speaker 3: a company that relies on that GPU to be there
Speaker 3: to spur sales for enthusiast PC builds for example, that's
Speaker 3: a long time to wait, you know, for your next
Speaker 3: big wave of customers. And if you sell cases and coolers,
Speaker 3: even motherboards, you can't really self generate that much momentumly
Speaker 3: you can if you launch the best case ever killer
Speaker 3: product in the middle of a cycle. Yeah, you'll do okay,
Speaker 3: but there's just far fewer people building a computer at
Speaker 3: that time versus waiting for the next big launch because
Speaker 3: normally so GPU that triggers.
Speaker 2: So that I understand. So a new GPU comes out
Speaker 2: every two years, you're saying, and that launch is what
Speaker 2: spurs people to buy a bunch of new cases. I
Speaker 2: know this sounds obvious. I just want to spell it
Speaker 2: out right. So and that cycle is now broken.
Speaker 3: Yeah, because it's it's that launch that people use that
Speaker 3: as a trigger for when they want to build their
Speaker 3: new system and video or AMD. Same for CPUs. But
Speaker 3: you know, the thing that really dictates your performance, broadly
Speaker 3: speaking for most people is the CPU or the GPU,
Speaker 3: and once you've built, there's not a lot of reason
Speaker 3: to change it until the next big thing comes out.
Speaker 3: So there's that where everyone's along the ride, along for
Speaker 3: the ride for the silicon launches. And then there's also
Speaker 3: the memory prices where even companies like gez Skill, which
Speaker 3: is a memory stick maker, so they don't make the
Speaker 3: actual memory of the silicon, but they put it on
Speaker 3: a stick and put a heat sink on it and
Speaker 3: sell it. Even companies like them. We did an interview
Speaker 3: with them, and they're down just as much as the
Speaker 3: case company is for revenue, even though there's stuff is
Speaker 3: going up in price, and it's because they're not getting
Speaker 3: priority and that's the data centers. And they also obviously
Speaker 3: if they increase their retail cost, fewer people can buy it,
Speaker 3: and so you just run into this volume trap where
Speaker 3: they just can't move enough stuff because no one's buying anything.
Speaker 3: So a lot of the companies we spoke with are
Speaker 3: down on the year forty to sixty percent, and an
Speaker 3: year on year about seventy percent.
Speaker 2: God, it's very fucking grim like. What's left at the
Speaker 2: end of this, genuinely what's left?
Speaker 3: Yeah, A lot of really talented people have lost their
Speaker 3: jobs or will be losing their jobs after for Computex,
Speaker 3: which is in two weeks, like some of the best
Speaker 3: designers I know in the industry, and the companies you know,
Speaker 3: they can't keep them employed because they're not selling anything.
Speaker 2: So that's fucking grim like. I mean, can any of
Speaker 2: this recovery afterwards, because I get the sense that in video,
Speaker 2: let's say they walk away from GPUs at the industrial scale,
Speaker 2: I guess they could return to gamers, but reallocating all
Speaker 2: of that, I don't know. Capex, I guess it would be.
Speaker 3: Yeah, they just can't get that much money out of it.
Speaker 3: So if ny Video wants to be anything like it
Speaker 3: is now, yeah, maybe they whatever ship a couple of
Speaker 3: billion dollars more stuff to gamers, But it's just the.
Speaker 2: Does that revenue exist? Is there that much revenue in
Speaker 2: the gamers?
Speaker 3: Yeah, and there is billions of dollars, but there's not
Speaker 3: tens of billions of dollars, you.
Speaker 2: Know, there's not fifty billion dollars a quarter.
Speaker 3: All right, Yeah, And and so I don't know, even
Speaker 3: if they kind of come back, it's also going to
Speaker 3: leave the market in shambles where whoever survives at the
Speaker 3: end of this. It's not clear if those are the
Speaker 3: companies that are going to be the pro consumer companies,
Speaker 3: because there are actually a lot of companies that do
Speaker 3: the right thing for consumers in the DIY space, but
Speaker 3: they're smaller and I don't know that they can survive
Speaker 3: this type of thing. But you know, if there's a
Speaker 3: situation where I currently, to me, it feels like a
Speaker 3: new player, as a new GPU maker, would have to
Speaker 3: bail out the DIY industry with something or like a
Speaker 3: government would have to come in and do some kind
Speaker 3: of you know, antitrust or whatever bust, which isn't going
Speaker 3: to happen. So I'm not really sure. And the memory
Speaker 3: prices aren't solved with either of those two things, so
Speaker 3: it's unless it seems like the AI bubble has to pop.
Speaker 3: I don't know who's holding the needle though.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean when this comes out, it will be
Speaker 2: the day of in video earnings, so there's no point
Speaker 2: of ever. They'll probably be and raise again. And it's
Speaker 2: interesting because without saying anything definitive, it is taking the
Speaker 2: piss a bit like just like it's like beating raised
Speaker 2: every single time, like without fail more than an analysts could
Speaker 2: ever say. All while nowhere near as many data centers
Speaker 2: get built as the chips that have been shipped, it
Speaker 2: feels like something is gonna pop here. It feels like
Speaker 2: something is weird as happening. I think that's actually the
Speaker 2: best one. It's just things feel very goddamn weird.
Speaker 3: It doesn't seem I know, markets aren't rational, this seems
Speaker 3: like beyond irrational. It seems artificial to me.
Speaker 2: Yes, I mean a propos i guess for the name.
Speaker 2: But it's like, but it's it's also all in pursuit
Speaker 2: of what exactly because all of these because at least
Speaker 2: with gaming, people have fun. I think AIL was like
Speaker 2: the least joyful thing ever, Like it's just it's just
Speaker 2: when you would like the we talked about this before
Speaker 2: as well, but this year's GtC when he's like, it's
Speaker 2: a gentic, it's Nemo claw. Hey remember remember open Claw?
Speaker 2: Remember that shit? It's like when when that like remember this?
Speaker 2: If today in video beats some races, which they very
Speaker 2: well made, then if they don't, we but let's say
Speaker 2: remember their big announcement last GtC was we made open Claw, Like,
Speaker 2: this is what this is why people are buying all
Speaker 2: the GPUs. This is the reason I don't know. Something's
Speaker 2: up up man.
Speaker 3: I will say there was. If anybody needs something to
Speaker 3: feel positive and find some.
Speaker 2: Joy, this is a good way to it. Please please.
Speaker 3: There was a great clip that was circulated yesterday today
Speaker 3: of one of the former Google I think CEO right,
Speaker 3: who did a commencement speech. Oh yeah, and he mentions
Speaker 3: AI and immediately gets booed.
Speaker 2: It's and then that happened as well to some McKinsey
Speaker 2: eye person at another school who I don't know if
Speaker 2: some woman went up and had the same thing and
Speaker 2: she just looked. In both cases they looked so surprised.
Speaker 3: Yeah, they looked like and that's how you know they're
Speaker 3: out of touch. I did see some one count where
Speaker 3: a guy was like, Oh, these billionaires don't care about
Speaker 3: getting booed, you know, they get so much money or whatever.
Speaker 3: I actually I do think they care. I think if
Speaker 3: you're that level, you're a begelomaniac and like that probably
Speaker 3: deeply bothers them, which is great because it's like you
Speaker 3: can't take anything else from them, so at least make
Speaker 3: sure they hear the booze echo and they try to
Speaker 3: sleep at night.
Speaker 2: Well that's the thing as well, Like I don't think
Speaker 2: anyone is immune to a group of people booing them. No,
Speaker 2: I think actually that is the best thing we could do.
Speaker 2: But I think it's funny as well, because I was
Speaker 2: watching it as we wrap up here. I was watching
Speaker 2: that and I was thinking, Yeah, you used to be
Speaker 2: that these fuck nuts would get on stage to'd be
Speaker 2: like it's all about hard work. And I remember when
Speaker 2: I sat like by sir Gabrion and Larry Page and
Speaker 2: we're all doing business together and we were just like, wow,
Speaker 2: I love doing hard work so much, and everyone collapse.
Speaker 2: It's like, wow, if I work hard, I could be
Speaker 2: one of these guys, even though that's not how that
Speaker 2: works right now. It's just like ay for a I.
Speaker 2: You don't do this, You're dead everything.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 3: She has her commencement speech like ten days from Lisa
Speaker 3: boom much.
Speaker 2: But that's the thing, Lisa's that's I will be honest, Lisa.
Speaker 2: SU's the biggest disappointment of them because in my history
Speaker 2: of gaming and PC gaming, AMD always seemed more normal.
Speaker 3: Yeah, she says like they gave the turncoat I think
Speaker 3: for a lot of but.
Speaker 2: She turned them around and now she's just like right
Speaker 2: into the void with you.
Speaker 3: Thanks for getting me where I needed to be.
Speaker 2: Now I can make a three hundred. Do you hear
Speaker 2: about they deal with Cruso. Cruso is buying a bunch
Speaker 2: of GPUs and then AMD is going to rent them back. Okay,
Speaker 2: it's so cool. That needs to and but no, I
Speaker 2: think that the booing thing is good. I think we
Speaker 2: need more of that. I think I think it's necessary
Speaker 2: because they clearly are not reading anything that people are
Speaker 2: actually saying or talking to, people having any experiences outside
Speaker 2: of the perimeter of security guards that surround them at
Speaker 2: all time.
Speaker 3: Change like how the schools work on their own programs.
Speaker 3: I mean, you don't know like that kind of response.
Speaker 3: You know, people might look at it and it can
Speaker 3: have a ripple effect where maybe people watching this commencement
Speaker 3: speaker get booed realize like, uh, there's a little more
Speaker 3: nuanced this AI thin beyond just make money and you know,
Speaker 3: replace humans.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've I mean, I've done a few things with
Speaker 2: a few universities, and it's interesting because it's like a
Speaker 2: fifty to fifty split of the people who clearly don't
Speaker 2: do any work at the university. So people at the
Speaker 2: top are like are like, okay, well here we go. Yeah,
Speaker 2: this is the best thing ever. I love AI so much,
Speaker 2: And then everyone else who actually does the work is like, yeah,
Speaker 2: you've never used that. You've never used this. You talk
Speaker 2: to it and it tells you things you like to hear,
Speaker 2: and you're like, this is amazing, And I think that
Speaker 2: that you're right that the booing is the only thing
Speaker 2: that we'll get to these people but I also think
Speaker 2: that there are some of them who are like, well,
Speaker 2: they just don't get it yet. And I think if
Speaker 2: an executive says that, look the Soul movies, I feel
Speaker 2: like Jigsaw goes a little too far. But I think
Speaker 2: the idea of just keeping someone in one place and
Speaker 2: explaining something vigorously could work on them. I'm not saying
Speaker 2: we totally copy Jigsaw. I'm just saying that the focused
Speaker 2: thing of no, you need to listen might work. Or alternatively,
Speaker 2: we just change the law so that CEOs have personal liability, right.
Speaker 3: But just just for just for speaking of liability, not
Speaker 3: fully endorsing methods.
Speaker 2: No, no, no no, we were just very.
Speaker 3: His They just they don't get them, the people exactly.
Speaker 2: I think that Jigsaw Jigsaw went too far. But the
Speaker 2: focus that Jigsaw got from people is something could be like.
Speaker 2: I think that that's a good place to wrap it
Speaker 2: as well. There this anti saw anti Jigsaw, but considering
Speaker 2: all managerial effects, Steve, where can people find you?
Speaker 3: Uh? YouTube dot com, slash gameras and access? And I hope,
Speaker 3: I hope when the FBI visits both of us to
Speaker 3: ask about our cowents on Jigsaw, you'll have me back.
Speaker 2: On yes, and just to be clear to the to
Speaker 2: everyone that was a bit, we are joking and we're
Speaker 2: not talking with any specificity anyway. Thank you so much.
Speaker 2: You've been listened to better or flower back back with
Speaker 2: a monologue in a few days. Cheers. Thank you for
Speaker 2: listening to Better Offline.
Speaker 4: The editor and composer of the Better Offline theme song
Speaker 4: is Mattersowski. You can check out more of his music
Speaker 4: and audio projects at Mattasowski dot com, m A T
Speaker 4: T O S O W s ki dot com. You
Speaker 4: can email me at easy at Better Offline dot com
Speaker 4: or visit Better Offline dot com to find more podcast
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Speaker 2: Thank you so much for listening.
Speaker 1: Better Offline is a production of cool Zone Media. For
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