1 00:00:01,440 --> 00:00:04,600 Speaker 1: Welcome back to Long Shot, a production of McClatchy Studios 2 00:00:04,880 --> 00:00:09,880 Speaker 1: and I Heart Radio. I'm executive producer Davin Coburn. This 3 00:00:10,039 --> 00:00:12,360 Speaker 1: is a bonus feature for a return man, taking you 4 00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:15,000 Speaker 1: behind the scenes of a reporting process that lasted more 5 00:00:15,080 --> 00:00:19,840 Speaker 1: than three years. In researching Jim Duncan's death, lead reporter 6 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:22,720 Speaker 1: Brett McCormick and the rest of our production team wanted 7 00:00:22,760 --> 00:00:26,000 Speaker 1: to better understand the actions taken or not by Lancaster 8 00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:29,360 Speaker 1: authorities following the shooting, and to learn more about how 9 00:00:29,400 --> 00:00:32,720 Speaker 1: police in that era approached their jobs in general. We're 10 00:00:32,760 --> 00:00:34,640 Speaker 1: continuing our coverage to night here on w c c 11 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:38,960 Speaker 1: O m CBSN. Minnesota protesters have set fire to Minneapolis's 12 00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:42,760 Speaker 1: third police precinct. Policing has evolved over time and its 13 00:00:42,760 --> 00:00:46,000 Speaker 1: tactics and its priorities, and as we've all seen during 14 00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:49,319 Speaker 1: recent nationwide protests, the role that officers play in their 15 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:53,159 Speaker 1: communities is the subject of much debate. The third precincts 16 00:00:53,360 --> 00:00:57,280 Speaker 1: where the officers involved in the George, Florida arrest were headquartered. 17 00:00:57,760 --> 00:01:01,400 Speaker 1: My initial reaction was, if we change the date, we 18 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:04,600 Speaker 1: could be having a conversation about the Jim Douggins shooting 19 00:01:04,720 --> 00:01:08,000 Speaker 1: from a year ago. Seth Stowton, who you heard in 20 00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:11,039 Speaker 1: the show, has a unique perspective on that happened. He 21 00:01:11,160 --> 00:01:14,360 Speaker 1: was a police officer himself before becoming a lawyer. I 22 00:01:14,360 --> 00:01:17,760 Speaker 1: got sucked right back into studying from an academic and 23 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:21,160 Speaker 1: legal perspective all of the stuff that I had previously 24 00:01:21,319 --> 00:01:24,600 Speaker 1: done as an officer, and he now teaches at the 25 00:01:24,680 --> 00:01:28,480 Speaker 1: University of South Carolina School of Law. Officers get involved 26 00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:32,120 Speaker 1: in a wide variety of very different situations, and good 27 00:01:32,319 --> 00:01:37,360 Speaker 1: policing is context specific. Student's expertise form the basis for 28 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:39,760 Speaker 1: a ted X talk he gave there in Columbia. On 29 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:43,360 Speaker 1: another level, though, we could identify a set of principles 30 00:01:43,360 --> 00:01:47,320 Speaker 1: that we could use to evaluate policing in almost any context. 31 00:01:47,960 --> 00:01:51,760 Speaker 1: Principles that shape the police function itself, what officers do 32 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:54,640 Speaker 1: and how they do it, the way that officers view 33 00:01:54,880 --> 00:01:58,400 Speaker 1: their job, and the way that they relate to community members. 34 00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:01,920 Speaker 1: Return Man, Sir Rachel Wise and I sat down with 35 00:02:01,960 --> 00:02:06,040 Speaker 1: Stouton in his office to learn more about the history 36 00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:10,440 Speaker 1: of policing, lessons today's officers can take from Jim Duncan's case, 37 00:02:11,080 --> 00:02:13,200 Speaker 1: and what Stowton says is the best way forward. For 38 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:17,200 Speaker 1: law enforcement in general through an approach known as guardian policing. 39 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:24,760 Speaker 1: This conversation has been edited for length and clarity. All Right, 40 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:27,760 Speaker 1: Jue Boy in My life in a nutshell Um. I 41 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:30,160 Speaker 1: grew up in South Florida. I moved to North Florida 42 00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:34,320 Speaker 1: to go to college, to go to Florida the now 43 00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:39,200 Speaker 1: the Florida State University, and it was working as a 44 00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:42,440 Speaker 1: martial arts instructor at the time, and one of the 45 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:45,160 Speaker 1: students at the martial arts studio where I worked was 46 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:48,920 Speaker 1: the public information officer for the local police department. He 47 00:02:49,240 --> 00:02:52,400 Speaker 1: encouraged me to do ride along with him, which I 48 00:02:52,440 --> 00:02:56,840 Speaker 1: did to start volunteering in victim services at the police 49 00:02:56,840 --> 00:03:02,919 Speaker 1: department and eventually to apply as a reserve officer. That 50 00:03:03,040 --> 00:03:06,079 Speaker 1: was there five years. I ultimately left the city police 51 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:08,240 Speaker 1: Department for a job as a state investigator. I was 52 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:10,600 Speaker 1: there for more than two and a half years, and 53 00:03:11,560 --> 00:03:14,560 Speaker 1: in an effort to continue to expand my career horizons, 54 00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:17,079 Speaker 1: essentially went to law school at the University of Virginia. 55 00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:20,320 Speaker 1: I clerked for a judge for a year. I was 56 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:23,280 Speaker 1: lucky enough to get an academic fellowship at Harvard Law 57 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:27,320 Speaker 1: School for two years and then came here to the 58 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:31,320 Speaker 1: University of South Carolina School of Law, where I've been well, 59 00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:33,880 Speaker 1: this is my sixth year here. What was your initial 60 00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:37,840 Speaker 1: gut reaction when you heard the basic overview of the 61 00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:41,560 Speaker 1: facts here. There are aspects of it that are obviously 62 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:46,680 Speaker 1: different because it happened so long ago, But the issues 63 00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:50,520 Speaker 1: that it raises are exactly the same as a lot 64 00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:52,760 Speaker 1: of the issues that we see, and a lot of 65 00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:55,680 Speaker 1: the concerns that are brought to a head by the 66 00:03:55,720 --> 00:03:59,040 Speaker 1: Walter Scott shooting in North Charleston, or the Michael Brown 67 00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:01,200 Speaker 1: shooting in for Sit or the timure Rice shooting in 68 00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:06,040 Speaker 1: Cleveland and so on. There are questions about transparency and accountability. 69 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:09,480 Speaker 1: There are questions about whether there was a sufficient investigation, 70 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:14,160 Speaker 1: And the reason that that's a little depressing is because 71 00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:18,240 Speaker 1: the conversations that we're having now about policing aren't new. 72 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:22,680 Speaker 1: They've actually been fairly steady, going back at least as 73 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:26,520 Speaker 1: far as the eighteen thirties and forties. As American policing 74 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:29,840 Speaker 1: really started the modern era of policing in this country 75 00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:33,680 Speaker 1: kicked off, there have been concerns about police abuses and 76 00:04:33,839 --> 00:04:40,480 Speaker 1: overreach and unfairly targeting certain population groups. About unaccountable extra 77 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:44,680 Speaker 1: judicial killings and the like. So the shooting in the 78 00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:49,640 Speaker 1: individual incident may seem like an aberration, but one it's 79 00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:52,279 Speaker 1: not clear that as a factual matter, it is or 80 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:56,320 Speaker 1: was that unusual, and too certainly with regard to the 81 00:04:56,800 --> 00:04:59,440 Speaker 1: concerns that it raises, those are not at all unusual. 82 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:02,240 Speaker 1: And the timeline you laid out back to the eighteen 83 00:05:02,320 --> 00:05:06,680 Speaker 1: thirties and forties, very different place in American history, very 84 00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:10,960 Speaker 1: different place in South Carolina history, but apparently not a 85 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:14,320 Speaker 1: very different place in these questions about police interactions with 86 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:17,159 Speaker 1: communities of color, and I think it's inevitable. I think 87 00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:19,400 Speaker 1: we will always have those conversations. I don't think there's 88 00:05:19,440 --> 00:05:23,560 Speaker 1: a way to alleviate everyone's concerns about the role that 89 00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:27,080 Speaker 1: the police play. And it's because the police exist at 90 00:05:27,120 --> 00:05:32,679 Speaker 1: the very point of tension between society's need for order, 91 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:36,080 Speaker 1: to be protected from people who do bad things, to 92 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:39,960 Speaker 1: apprehend people who do bad things. Keeping in mind that 93 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:44,520 Speaker 1: society's need for order requires us to allow the government 94 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:47,440 Speaker 1: to infringe on our freedoms in different ways, to search 95 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:52,159 Speaker 1: our cars, to use force. On the other hand, we 96 00:05:52,279 --> 00:05:57,440 Speaker 1: also demand in a democracy to be protected from government overreach. 97 00:05:58,040 --> 00:06:00,640 Speaker 1: How much freedom are we willing to give up to 98 00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:04,880 Speaker 1: get both my individual interest in freedom and also society's 99 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:10,080 Speaker 1: interest in order. That's not a question that has a 100 00:06:10,080 --> 00:06:12,800 Speaker 1: stable answer. At any given point of time, in any 101 00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:16,480 Speaker 1: given community, they're going to be multiple perspectives about how 102 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:20,680 Speaker 1: to balance those priorities. So to a certain extent, it's 103 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:25,360 Speaker 1: very natural that we've always had these conversations. They're inevitable, 104 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:29,680 Speaker 1: especially in this place. And I think about the Confederate 105 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:32,040 Speaker 1: flag in the conversation that happened about that in this 106 00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:36,240 Speaker 1: concept of the government should not be overstepping its bounty. 107 00:06:36,800 --> 00:06:39,840 Speaker 1: And I can give you a historical example, right, um, 108 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:44,400 Speaker 1: back a long time ago before and at the time 109 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:48,440 Speaker 1: that American police agencies were really kicking off in cities 110 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:51,400 Speaker 1: like Philadelphia, New York, in Boston, right, the big cities 111 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:53,839 Speaker 1: were the first to adopt what we now would consider 112 00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:57,080 Speaker 1: a police force. South Carolina and a number of the 113 00:06:57,080 --> 00:07:02,240 Speaker 1: other states had slave acts that either allowed or required 114 00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:10,320 Speaker 1: the government to put together groups of usually white land 115 00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:15,600 Speaker 1: and slave owning men to round up fugitive slaves and 116 00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:20,440 Speaker 1: to effectively prevent slave uprisings by intimidating the black population. 117 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:25,240 Speaker 1: Number of plantation owners didn't like those laws, not because 118 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:28,520 Speaker 1: they wanted to look out for slaves rights. It's because 119 00:07:28,560 --> 00:07:32,080 Speaker 1: they didn't want the government interfering in what they viewed 120 00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:36,360 Speaker 1: as a plantation and slave owners prerogative of disciplining their 121 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:39,280 Speaker 1: own slaves. They didn't want the government to get involved 122 00:07:39,320 --> 00:07:42,080 Speaker 1: in that. That was something for me as a man 123 00:07:42,440 --> 00:07:46,440 Speaker 1: to deal with and not something that the government should intervene. So, 124 00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:52,120 Speaker 1: even when we're talking about that really disturbing history that 125 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:54,760 Speaker 1: I think it's important for us to acknowledge as one 126 00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:58,800 Speaker 1: of the precursors to modern policing, we still see this 127 00:07:58,960 --> 00:08:04,080 Speaker 1: resistance or this tension between how much do we want 128 00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:07,080 Speaker 1: to allow the government to infringe and how much do 129 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:10,880 Speaker 1: we want to keep the government out. In the sixties 130 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:13,720 Speaker 1: and seventies, when Duncan would have been growing up, and 131 00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:16,560 Speaker 1: then when he died, can you offer sort of a 132 00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:20,400 Speaker 1: general description of police procedures and the sort of tactical 133 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:23,080 Speaker 1: and training revolution of that era. So there are a 134 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:25,120 Speaker 1: couple of things to keep in mind about that era. 135 00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:28,760 Speaker 1: When policing was first introduced in this country, it was 136 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:32,960 Speaker 1: introduced as a very localized endeavor, which of course it 137 00:08:33,040 --> 00:08:36,560 Speaker 1: is today. We don't have one police agency. In the 138 00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:39,160 Speaker 1: state of South Carolina, we have more than two hundred 139 00:08:39,160 --> 00:08:45,000 Speaker 1: police agencies. When policing originated in the larger cities and 140 00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:48,920 Speaker 1: spread to the midsize cities in starting in the eighteen 141 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:52,560 Speaker 1: forties and getting into the eighteen fifties and sixties, the 142 00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:56,480 Speaker 1: officers job was in large part to make sure that 143 00:08:56,559 --> 00:09:00,640 Speaker 1: their local elected official state and power. Because someone knew 144 00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:03,560 Speaker 1: got voted in, they would fire all the police officers, 145 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:07,240 Speaker 1: and then through a political patronage system, they would hire 146 00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:09,400 Speaker 1: an all new group of police officers, many of whom 147 00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:12,240 Speaker 1: would pay the political patron for the privilege of getting 148 00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:16,640 Speaker 1: hired as a police officer. Starting in the very late 149 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:19,840 Speaker 1: eighteen hundreds and into the early nineteen hundreds, there was 150 00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:25,400 Speaker 1: a police reform or police professionalism movement. The reform era 151 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:32,320 Speaker 1: sought to shift policing from a politically involved constituent services 152 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:38,640 Speaker 1: type endeavor to being primarily about law enforcement and crime fighting. 153 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:44,280 Speaker 1: Officers were crime fighters first and foremost. There are all 154 00:09:44,320 --> 00:09:46,720 Speaker 1: kinds of reasons why that was actually wrong. Crime started 155 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:49,760 Speaker 1: going up and police agencies couldn't handle it. So the 156 00:09:49,800 --> 00:09:52,000 Speaker 1: image that they had been selling to the public, we 157 00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:54,960 Speaker 1: are crime fighters, let us do our thing, well, if 158 00:09:54,960 --> 00:09:57,360 Speaker 1: you're crime fighters, you're doing an awful job of it. 159 00:09:57,760 --> 00:10:01,920 Speaker 1: So that the perspectives started to shift in the sixties 160 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:05,280 Speaker 1: and seventies, in part because of public pressure during the 161 00:10:05,280 --> 00:10:09,480 Speaker 1: Civil Rights movement. So that started what we now refer 162 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:13,960 Speaker 1: to as the tactical revolution in policing, making sure that 163 00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:17,199 Speaker 1: there is now a book so that officers can go 164 00:10:17,320 --> 00:10:21,080 Speaker 1: by the book. But that was a slow process. It 165 00:10:21,160 --> 00:10:25,000 Speaker 1: didn't penetrate fully. Like a lot of things in policing. 166 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:28,880 Speaker 1: It started at the largest agencies and kind of trickled 167 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:33,320 Speaker 1: down to smaller agencies, which ultimately gets us to Jim 168 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:39,040 Speaker 1: Duncan Lancaster event and these questions of trust faith. In 169 00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:41,559 Speaker 1: the aftermath of a critical incident like a shooting, there 170 00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:48,319 Speaker 1: is always going to be uncertainty. When Officer Wilson shot 171 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:52,000 Speaker 1: and killed Michael Brown, there were different pieces of information 172 00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:56,480 Speaker 1: flying all over the place, and two narratives came out 173 00:10:56,520 --> 00:10:59,640 Speaker 1: of that, and one of those narratives was that Michael 174 00:10:59,679 --> 00:11:06,679 Speaker 1: Brown had violently attacked Officer Wilson and then was returning aggressively, 175 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:11,360 Speaker 1: approaching a second time, purportedly to violently attack him again 176 00:11:12,040 --> 00:11:14,640 Speaker 1: at the time he was shot and killed. The second 177 00:11:14,760 --> 00:11:18,720 Speaker 1: narrative is that Officer Wilson shot Michael Brown while Michael 178 00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:23,400 Speaker 1: Brown's hands were up and he was surrendering. After that shooting, 179 00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:27,160 Speaker 1: I would hazard a guess that anyone who wasn't an 180 00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:31,640 Speaker 1: eyewitness did not have facts to figure out which narrative 181 00:11:32,040 --> 00:11:35,720 Speaker 1: was correct, which narrative they should believe. So one of 182 00:11:35,760 --> 00:11:38,360 Speaker 1: the big questions for me is not just what happened 183 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:41,040 Speaker 1: in that shooting. One of the big questions is why 184 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:43,920 Speaker 1: did so many people in Ferguson and the surrounding area 185 00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:49,320 Speaker 1: and across the country believe the second narrative? Why did 186 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:53,360 Speaker 1: so many people think, Yeah, I could totally see that 187 00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:56,360 Speaker 1: an officer would shoot and kill an unarmed black man 188 00:11:56,400 --> 00:11:59,520 Speaker 1: whose hands were raised in surrender. The answer to that 189 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:03,440 Speaker 1: question and his lack of trust. People in Ferguson, people 190 00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:05,439 Speaker 1: in the St. Louis area, and many people across the 191 00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:09,679 Speaker 1: country saw the shooting of an unarmed black man while 192 00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:15,719 Speaker 1: surrendering as consistent with their perspective of policing. So when 193 00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:20,120 Speaker 1: I see the Jim Duncan shooting story, it raises that 194 00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:24,320 Speaker 1: same question of trust, and it raises a question of power. 195 00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:29,679 Speaker 1: Who in that story trusted the police and who had 196 00:12:29,720 --> 00:12:33,000 Speaker 1: the power to express that trust or distrust. And I 197 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:35,640 Speaker 1: don't just mean express it like saying it. I mean 198 00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:39,320 Speaker 1: express it through their actions. In Ferguson, you had a 199 00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:42,439 Speaker 1: lot of people who distrusted the police and were empowered 200 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:47,320 Speaker 1: to show that distrust by marching, by protesting, by holding visuals. 201 00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:51,160 Speaker 1: I don't think you've had quite that same dynamic in 202 00:12:51,200 --> 00:13:00,880 Speaker 1: the sixties. We'll be right back after the break. I 203 00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:04,959 Speaker 1: was out in Lancaster yesterday afternoon. I went by Duncan's 204 00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:06,760 Speaker 1: house where he was living at the end of his life. 205 00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:09,600 Speaker 1: And for a long time that house has been vacant, 206 00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:12,840 Speaker 1: and there was a car in the driveway this time. 207 00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:16,840 Speaker 1: So I went up and I knocked on the door. 208 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:20,160 Speaker 1: There's a new owner and her name is Camelia Funderburke. 209 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:23,360 Speaker 1: And I asked her if she knew anything about who 210 00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:26,120 Speaker 1: had lived in the home before or this case. She 211 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:28,200 Speaker 1: had not known anything about this. She had lived in 212 00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:31,560 Speaker 1: Lancaster all her life, but I told her about it. 213 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:35,360 Speaker 1: He played for the Baltimore Colts and he actually died 214 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:39,200 Speaker 1: in the Lancaster police station. And I would like to 215 00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:43,600 Speaker 1: just play you her reaction and get your reaction to it. 216 00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:47,640 Speaker 1: Camelia Funderburke declined to let us use her voice in 217 00:13:47,679 --> 00:13:53,319 Speaker 1: this podcast, but Stonton's reaction to hearing the tape spoke volumes, Yeah, 218 00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:59,199 Speaker 1: that's she had never heard the story before, that some 219 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:04,000 Speaker 1: total of her knowledge about this was be outlining the 220 00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:07,640 Speaker 1: facts for and it's fascinating, isn't it? And a little 221 00:14:07,679 --> 00:14:11,960 Speaker 1: frightening that her immediate conclusion is, I don't believe that 222 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:18,120 Speaker 1: it's not completely crazy, right, like people absolutely have in 223 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:22,080 Speaker 1: the course of American history walked up to officers and 224 00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:25,200 Speaker 1: attempted to wrestle their gun out of their holsters. So 225 00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:28,600 Speaker 1: why not believe it? I would hazard a guess it's 226 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:31,360 Speaker 1: because either she doesn't trust police now, which may be 227 00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:34,760 Speaker 1: part of the story, or she thinks about what policing 228 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:37,200 Speaker 1: was like at the time in the nineteen sixties and says, 229 00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:40,880 Speaker 1: there's no way that I'm going to trust that institution, right, 230 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:45,080 Speaker 1: that's a distrust issue. Even then, if Duncan's death did 231 00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:49,680 Speaker 1: happen exactly as it's described based on what we know 232 00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:53,280 Speaker 1: of how police investigated the incident, there are critics, obviously, 233 00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:55,680 Speaker 1: who say that they sort of invited these kinds of 234 00:14:55,760 --> 00:14:58,080 Speaker 1: questions and second guessing based on what seemed like a 235 00:14:58,160 --> 00:15:01,600 Speaker 1: perfunctory kind of an investigation the incident. Is that fair 236 00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:05,440 Speaker 1: the criticism the criticism, absolutely, that's fair. Well, let's be 237 00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:08,720 Speaker 1: a little bit cautious. Investigations into police shootings in the 238 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:12,480 Speaker 1: sixties do not look like what should be investigations of 239 00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:16,000 Speaker 1: police shootings today. Unfortunately, there are at least some investigations 240 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:18,720 Speaker 1: of police shootings even today that would have looked pretty 241 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:22,160 Speaker 1: normal back in the sixties. That's not because the investigations 242 00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:24,240 Speaker 1: in the sixties were so good. That's because even today 243 00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:28,000 Speaker 1: we still have some pretty shitty investigations into officer involved shootings. 244 00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:32,320 Speaker 1: There wasn't the same demand for that in the sixties, 245 00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:37,160 Speaker 1: and what demand there was was not from a part 246 00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:41,200 Speaker 1: of the population that really had the power to make 247 00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:45,240 Speaker 1: that demand a reality. Since the summer, when we've had 248 00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:47,840 Speaker 1: a number of high profile police killings, one of the 249 00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:52,200 Speaker 1: reasons that we've seen such a spotlight being shined on 250 00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:58,160 Speaker 1: policing is because of video, Because people who otherwise would 251 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:03,600 Speaker 1: not have believed that police could do these things are 252 00:16:03,640 --> 00:16:09,680 Speaker 1: now looking at their phones and being shown effectively incontrovertible 253 00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:13,920 Speaker 1: proof that in fact, police do, on at least some occasions, 254 00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:18,400 Speaker 1: engage in these entirely and obviously inappropriate and egregious actions. 255 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:22,920 Speaker 1: And then you have people, especially from the black community 256 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:26,440 Speaker 1: or other communities of color, who say, of course that's possible. 257 00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:31,600 Speaker 1: We've known about stuff like that since um slavery. That's 258 00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:35,320 Speaker 1: not a surprise to us. Can you talk about what 259 00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:38,440 Speaker 1: sort of an investigation might have been done, what sort 260 00:16:38,440 --> 00:16:43,520 Speaker 1: of capabilities they would have had, technological or Okay, so 261 00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:48,640 Speaker 1: there are things that we could do today that wouldn't 262 00:16:48,640 --> 00:16:51,720 Speaker 1: necessarily have been an option at the time. And I'll 263 00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:55,479 Speaker 1: give you a very superficial example. Today, it would probably 264 00:16:55,520 --> 00:16:57,440 Speaker 1: be the case that the police station would have had 265 00:16:57,440 --> 00:17:01,240 Speaker 1: a security camera rolling. It would probably be pretty simple 266 00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:04,679 Speaker 1: to just pull the tape. So what would an investigation 267 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:07,920 Speaker 1: look like? Well, the first sort of investigations one oh one, 268 00:17:08,080 --> 00:17:10,919 Speaker 1: which was as true in the nineteen sixties as it 269 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:14,640 Speaker 1: is today, is you separate the witnesses and get statements 270 00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:17,760 Speaker 1: from them. There were multiple officers around, as I understand, 271 00:17:18,320 --> 00:17:20,119 Speaker 1: and you're going to want to separate them so they 272 00:17:20,119 --> 00:17:24,560 Speaker 1: don't cross contaminate each other's interviews. We're not just going 273 00:17:24,600 --> 00:17:27,520 Speaker 1: to say go in with a list of questions and 274 00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:30,639 Speaker 1: get specific answers. We want to have more open ended interviews. 275 00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:33,480 Speaker 1: We want to engage in what today is called cognitive interviewing, 276 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:36,119 Speaker 1: and then we compare those statements to make sure that 277 00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:39,600 Speaker 1: they are consistent, and when we find inconsistencies, we look 278 00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:43,800 Speaker 1: for reasons for those inconsistencies, but would also be looking 279 00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:47,359 Speaker 1: at other pieces of evidence. We would, for example, do 280 00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:51,240 Speaker 1: a gunshot residue test, particularly back at the time, with 281 00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:57,159 Speaker 1: a revolver when the revolver goes off. Um, sorry, I 282 00:17:57,200 --> 00:18:00,320 Speaker 1: don't have a revolver. I don't think I'd didn't think 283 00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:01,960 Speaker 1: to ask how many firearms might be in this room? 284 00:18:02,040 --> 00:18:09,639 Speaker 1: Right now? I have a taser, very plastic. Uh, you 285 00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:11,320 Speaker 1: know the sad things. I used this as a prop 286 00:18:11,320 --> 00:18:13,320 Speaker 1: in class sometimes, and every time I use it as 287 00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:15,080 Speaker 1: a prop in class, I feel like I have to 288 00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:17,640 Speaker 1: say the gun you were about to see is not real. 289 00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:20,680 Speaker 1: Please don't come up and tackle me. I didn't used 290 00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:22,600 Speaker 1: to say that, and now I kind of have to 291 00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:27,040 Speaker 1: which ship. It's troubling. Okay. So this is a plastic 292 00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:32,919 Speaker 1: replica of a semi automatic firearm, and very basically, um, 293 00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:36,160 Speaker 1: in a real semi automatic firearm, this piece here would 294 00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:38,040 Speaker 1: come out that would be the magazine you would load 295 00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:41,399 Speaker 1: bullets into the magazine. A revolver is an old timey 296 00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:44,360 Speaker 1: wheel gun, and the wheel would have a little thing 297 00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:46,280 Speaker 1: that you pull out and then it would fall open 298 00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:49,320 Speaker 1: and you could put your five or six bullets in, 299 00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:52,000 Speaker 1: and then you close the wheel, and when you pulled 300 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:54,399 Speaker 1: the trigger, the firing pin would hit the bullet and 301 00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:58,040 Speaker 1: send it to the barrel, and then the wheel would 302 00:18:58,119 --> 00:19:01,920 Speaker 1: rotate by one fifth or one sixth of a turn 303 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:06,200 Speaker 1: to line the next bullet up with the barrel. A 304 00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:13,480 Speaker 1: semi automatic like this will eject gunshot residue, burnt powder, 305 00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:16,760 Speaker 1: a little bit of unburnt powder, the chemicals from the 306 00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:20,280 Speaker 1: explosion of the bullet in the chamber. A wheel gun, 307 00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:23,280 Speaker 1: a revolver is even more open, so you're going to 308 00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:26,640 Speaker 1: have even more gunpowder residue coming out of the back 309 00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:29,800 Speaker 1: sprang off to the sides. Obviously some coming out of 310 00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:31,560 Speaker 1: the front with a bullet coming out of the muzzle 311 00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:33,640 Speaker 1: with a bullet um, but there might be a lot 312 00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:38,679 Speaker 1: more gunpowder residue to test form. If you have no 313 00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:44,240 Speaker 1: gunpowder residue on someone's hands, you can be pretty sure 314 00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:47,120 Speaker 1: that that person either was not the shooter, or they 315 00:19:47,119 --> 00:19:49,159 Speaker 1: were the shooter, but they were wearing multiple sets of 316 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:52,200 Speaker 1: gloves that came up to their forearms that someone took 317 00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:56,280 Speaker 1: off afterwards. Right. So in a case like this, I 318 00:19:56,320 --> 00:20:00,000 Speaker 1: would have wanted to see them test Jim Duncan's hands 319 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:02,879 Speaker 1: for gunshot residue, and if it turns out that he 320 00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:05,840 Speaker 1: didn't have gunshot residue, then that would have suggested that 321 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:10,640 Speaker 1: he was not the shooter here. Also, I mentioned that 322 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:15,240 Speaker 1: when the bullet is fired, gunshot powder which is on 323 00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:18,840 Speaker 1: fire right, which is in the process of exploding, comes 324 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:21,320 Speaker 1: out of the front of the gun. It propels the 325 00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:26,840 Speaker 1: bullet forward. Essentially, when the firearm is too close to someone, 326 00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:30,520 Speaker 1: the powder that's expelled from the front, the chemicals and 327 00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:33,480 Speaker 1: the residue that's expelled from the front can penetrate the skin. 328 00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:36,560 Speaker 1: That's called stippling. And what we now know, but I'm 329 00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:39,240 Speaker 1: not sure we would have known in the nineteen sixties, 330 00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:43,119 Speaker 1: is how to measure approximately a burn pattern from a 331 00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:45,960 Speaker 1: particular gun or the stippling pattern from a particular gun, 332 00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:49,399 Speaker 1: and estimate about how far away the gun was at 333 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:54,240 Speaker 1: the time, also the position an angle of the wound. 334 00:20:54,520 --> 00:20:56,600 Speaker 1: And this is something that I would have expected them 335 00:20:56,640 --> 00:21:01,640 Speaker 1: to have been able to identify it's not always possible 336 00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:05,760 Speaker 1: to line up with perfect accuracy the penetration pattern of 337 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:08,240 Speaker 1: a bullet, and thus to backtrack that and say, okay, well, 338 00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:11,000 Speaker 1: the bullet penetrated here, then it clearly came off at 339 00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:14,520 Speaker 1: this angle. But we can rule out certain things, right. 340 00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:16,560 Speaker 1: We can say, okay, well it definitely came from somewhere 341 00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:19,880 Speaker 1: over here as opposed to somewhere over here. If they're 342 00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:23,920 Speaker 1: examining this gunshot wound and the person is right handed, 343 00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:27,440 Speaker 1: but it's from over here, then we have some questions. 344 00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:30,520 Speaker 1: It's not impossible, but it becomes a little bit more 345 00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:35,080 Speaker 1: improbable when you start to put together things like distance 346 00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:41,000 Speaker 1: and angle. Then you can maybe, and I'm emphasizing maybe, 347 00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:45,800 Speaker 1: start to say this looks consistent with or this does 348 00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:48,600 Speaker 1: not look consistent with a self inflicted gun job wund 349 00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:58,520 Speaker 1: We'll be back after the break. Then we get into 350 00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:01,560 Speaker 1: the questions of report and what would be written down, 351 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:06,240 Speaker 1: what would have what are current best practices and what 352 00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:08,880 Speaker 1: how do you anticipate they might have differed from what 353 00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:12,160 Speaker 1: was happening in a rural police station in the early 354 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:18,040 Speaker 1: nineteen seventies. Yeah, best practices now are largely officers report 355 00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:23,959 Speaker 1: everything an officer's report is their representation of the facts 356 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:26,919 Speaker 1: as best as they can make it. When you're talking 357 00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:30,720 Speaker 1: about an officer being involved in a critical incident, particularly 358 00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:34,720 Speaker 1: police shooting, the rules change a little bit. Ideally, you 359 00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:37,080 Speaker 1: still want the officer to give a statement, and you 360 00:22:37,119 --> 00:22:39,560 Speaker 1: still want them to give a statement fairly promptly. But 361 00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:43,359 Speaker 1: a lot of agencies now allow officers to either not 362 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:46,760 Speaker 1: write their own report or to delay the providing of 363 00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:50,000 Speaker 1: a statement or report for reasons that I think are 364 00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:54,040 Speaker 1: are largely flawed, but it is common practice. We're going 365 00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:56,440 Speaker 1: to give the officer time to decompress a little bit, 366 00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:59,359 Speaker 1: maybe time to have a representative present with them, a 367 00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:03,000 Speaker 1: lawyer or a union rap or something like that. The 368 00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:06,159 Speaker 1: purported facts of this case is that this wasn't an 369 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:10,160 Speaker 1: officer involved shooting. Applying modern standards, I would expect officers 370 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:12,199 Speaker 1: to write reports as if this was a suicide that 371 00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:17,440 Speaker 1: they had witnessed. Back in the day at a smaller agency, 372 00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:20,480 Speaker 1: at a more rural agency, at an agency that may 373 00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:25,000 Speaker 1: not have been leading the charge of police reform and professionalization, 374 00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:30,199 Speaker 1: a lot of ship happened that never got reported, and 375 00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:33,240 Speaker 1: so is where today we might have this massive case 376 00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:37,520 Speaker 1: file hundreds of pictures, hundreds of pages of statements from officers, 377 00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:43,439 Speaker 1: of reports of witnesses, of forensic reports. Um. Yeah, in 378 00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:46,240 Speaker 1: a case like this, if you had anything, you might 379 00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:49,439 Speaker 1: have a one line or one paragraph right up in 380 00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:54,120 Speaker 1: the watch log. At eight oh three pm, one man 381 00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:57,439 Speaker 1: later identified as Jim Duncan entered, attempted to take an 382 00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:01,960 Speaker 1: officer's firearm and shot himself. Period it done. If you 383 00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:05,199 Speaker 1: had that, nobody's going to jail. The officers are never 384 00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:08,720 Speaker 1: gonna have to testify against anyone because the only bad 385 00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:12,800 Speaker 1: actor here, so to speak, is the decedent. Why bother? 386 00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:16,240 Speaker 1: That leaves the door open for a lot of questions 387 00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:20,560 Speaker 1: about how authoritative that narrator is. Yeah, it does, But 388 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:24,320 Speaker 1: you know, at the time, officers didn't feel the need 389 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:29,240 Speaker 1: to present an authoritative narrative because their verbal explanations would 390 00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:31,960 Speaker 1: be enough. At least it would be enough for everyone 391 00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:34,680 Speaker 1: who they cared about. And I want to emphasize that's 392 00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:38,720 Speaker 1: not policing specific right. We constantly make divisions based on 393 00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:43,200 Speaker 1: differences or perceived differences, and we're using them to adjust 394 00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:47,480 Speaker 1: how much deference we give the other person and how 395 00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:51,040 Speaker 1: much difference we expect them to give us. There's some 396 00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:55,520 Speaker 1: problems that are particularly acute in the policing context when 397 00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:58,959 Speaker 1: both people expect more deference than the other one is 398 00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:04,840 Speaker 1: giving them. Social psychologists called this an asymmetric deference norm. 399 00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:08,840 Speaker 1: The officer might say, this person should defer to me 400 00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:13,280 Speaker 1: because I am the authority. The other person might say 401 00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:16,680 Speaker 1: the officer should defer to me in at least some 402 00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:21,520 Speaker 1: respect because I am a taxpayer, or something like that. 403 00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:25,520 Speaker 1: The potential for conflict comes up when the officer may 404 00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:28,240 Speaker 1: not just view lack of deference as something that is upsetting. 405 00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:31,679 Speaker 1: They may view it is something that requires a physical response. 406 00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:33,920 Speaker 1: And I can think of no better example than the 407 00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:37,399 Speaker 1: Sandra Bland traffic stoff. Hello man, well it takes how 408 00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:39,120 Speaker 1: I've told The reason for your stop is you didn't fail. 409 00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:41,320 Speaker 1: You failed to signal lane change. You get a dramas 410 00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:45,040 Speaker 1: lice insurance with you. After an initial interaction, the officer 411 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:47,520 Speaker 1: walked back to his car, wrote out what we later 412 00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:50,399 Speaker 1: learned as a warning ticket, walked back up to Sandra 413 00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:53,640 Speaker 1: Bland's car, and one of the first things he said 414 00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:57,800 Speaker 1: was you seem irritated. Okay, I'm like, now you you 415 00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:02,240 Speaker 1: this is Joja. I'm know you what you seem very irritated. 416 00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:04,959 Speaker 1: I am, I really am like that. But what I'm 417 00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:06,960 Speaker 1: doing tychical. I was getting out of your way. You're 418 00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:10,359 Speaker 1: speeding up tailorly, so I'll move over and you stop. 419 00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:13,200 Speaker 1: So yeah, I am a little irritated, but that doesn't 420 00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:15,760 Speaker 1: stop you from giving me a ticket. Sever If that 421 00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:19,080 Speaker 1: had been me in my newer model car, dressed in 422 00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:22,639 Speaker 1: my business suit, I think the cop would have, again, 423 00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:26,200 Speaker 1: unconsciously and without realizing it, given me a little more 424 00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:29,400 Speaker 1: deference than he gave Sandra Bland. But what he did 425 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:36,400 Speaker 1: was Sandra Bland is He waited four seconds and he said, 426 00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:39,800 Speaker 1: are you done? You asked me what's wrong, and I 427 00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:42,960 Speaker 1: told you so now I'm doing you. In other words, 428 00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:45,679 Speaker 1: he was telling her, I'm not deferring to you that 429 00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:50,800 Speaker 1: I don't care about or respect your concerns. They were 430 00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:53,879 Speaker 1: in a staring contest, and the problem with the staring 431 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:58,360 Speaker 1: contest in this context is not who blinks first. It's 432 00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:01,080 Speaker 1: who has the power to swing for and that's the officer. 433 00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:03,320 Speaker 1: I'm giving you a law for to turn around, will you. 434 00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:07,320 Speaker 1: I'm not complaining because you just pulled me out of 435 00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:12,440 Speaker 1: my car around and the idea that a guy coming 436 00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:16,280 Speaker 1: from Baltimore at the time, where he was royalty, where 437 00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:19,919 Speaker 1: he where he might have expected quite a bit of deference. Again, 438 00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:22,040 Speaker 1: I want to emphasize I'm not saying that is what happened. 439 00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:27,000 Speaker 1: But if Jim Duncan, the football star who is used 440 00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:31,440 Speaker 1: to deference and even a degree of hero worship in Baltimore, 441 00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:36,440 Speaker 1: comes down to South Carolina, the potential for explosive conflict 442 00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:41,200 Speaker 1: is pretty obvious. There's an interesting parallel here again that 443 00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:44,480 Speaker 1: in a lot of ways, NFL players are at the 444 00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:51,320 Speaker 1: forefront of this conversation about police interactions with communities of color. Yes, yes, yes, 445 00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:53,800 Speaker 1: look at I oh my god, the whole the kneeling, 446 00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:57,920 Speaker 1: the Colin Kaepernick's um. Yeah. Look at the way that 447 00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:00,520 Speaker 1: that we have responded as a society. Look at the 448 00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:04,240 Speaker 1: way that we responded to other sports figures taking stances 449 00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:09,479 Speaker 1: on things. No one got upset when Chuck Norris started 450 00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:12,760 Speaker 1: his Kick Drugs out of America program. These are the 451 00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:17,800 Speaker 1: faces of America's future now more than ever. They need 452 00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:22,120 Speaker 1: our help. Hi, I'm Chuck Nora. I want to talk 453 00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:24,760 Speaker 1: to you about our kids. What the hell does Chuck 454 00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:28,760 Speaker 1: Norris know about drugs? Stay in your lane, Chuck, that's 455 00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:31,000 Speaker 1: why I'm here to ask your support for kick drugs 456 00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:34,480 Speaker 1: out of America. Of course that would be absurd to say, right, 457 00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:38,680 Speaker 1: But Colin Kaepernick, he should just shut up and play 458 00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:41,400 Speaker 1: any case like this, whether it was Ferguson, whether it 459 00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:45,400 Speaker 1: was Lancaster, it's frustrating to try and pick apart because 460 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:47,920 Speaker 1: we don't know if this was a cover up. Yeah, 461 00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:51,600 Speaker 1: we don't know if this was actually a straightforward, open 462 00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:54,440 Speaker 1: and chut kind of thing, or if it was a straightforward, 463 00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:56,400 Speaker 1: open and shut kind of a thing that was just 464 00:28:56,840 --> 00:29:02,040 Speaker 1: handled really badly. Yeah, what can we learn from this 465 00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:05,720 Speaker 1: historical incident that we can apply today? And one of 466 00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:08,560 Speaker 1: the things I can tell you, just very superficially is 467 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:13,640 Speaker 1: we need accurate and legitimate investigations. At risk of repeating you, 468 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:20,480 Speaker 1: there are some predictable possibilities to explain what happened. It 469 00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:22,920 Speaker 1: happened the way that the police later said it did, 470 00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:26,840 Speaker 1: and they acted appropriately in the aftermath. It happened the 471 00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:30,520 Speaker 1: way the police said it did, and they botched the aftermath. 472 00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:34,000 Speaker 1: It did not happen the way that the officers said 473 00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:38,800 Speaker 1: it did, and there is some ineptitude at best, or 474 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:43,880 Speaker 1: active cover up at worst. We don't know. That's again 475 00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:46,040 Speaker 1: where trust comes in. That's again why trust is so 476 00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:49,560 Speaker 1: incredibly important. If I'm the police chief, I need to 477 00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:53,520 Speaker 1: be able to say we messed up or the circumstances, 478 00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:57,000 Speaker 1: the facts, the evidence certainly suggest that we messed up. 479 00:29:57,400 --> 00:29:59,800 Speaker 1: Here's what I'm going to do immediately, and here's what 480 00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:01,120 Speaker 1: I hope to do in the mid term, in the 481 00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:03,640 Speaker 1: long term, to make sure that we stay on top 482 00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:12,440 Speaker 1: of this. By acknowledging missteps, police agencies can build that 483 00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:17,280 Speaker 1: trust step by painful step so that when something happens, 484 00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:18,840 Speaker 1: and it's not a matter of if, it is a 485 00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:22,120 Speaker 1: matter of when. When something happens in which there is 486 00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:26,120 Speaker 1: ambiguity or uncertainty that can ignite a fire in the community, 487 00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:30,360 Speaker 1: when the police chief steps forward and says this is 488 00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:34,240 Speaker 1: not as bad as it looks, they'll have some trust 489 00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:37,120 Speaker 1: that if it was as bad as it looks, that 490 00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:40,240 Speaker 1: would be acknowledged. They're not going to have the same 491 00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:43,080 Speaker 1: questions then that we have now about the Jim Duncan shooting. 492 00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:50,680 Speaker 1: I'm Davin Coburn. Return Man is a production of The 493 00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:55,560 Speaker 1: Herald McClatchy Studios and I Heart Radio. Brett McCormick is 494 00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:58,360 Speaker 1: the lead reporter, and the show is produced by Matt Walsh, 495 00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:03,000 Speaker 1: Tara Tabor, Caught Stevens, and Rachel Wise. I'm the executive 496 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:06,440 Speaker 1: producer from McLatchy Studios. The executive producer for I Heart 497 00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:10,080 Speaker 1: Radio is Sean Titone. For lots more on this story, 498 00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:13,600 Speaker 1: go to Harold Online dot com Slash return Man. If 499 00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:17,080 Speaker 1: you have any additional information about Jim Duncan's life or death, 500 00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:21,680 Speaker 1: email us at return Man at Harold online dot com. 501 00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:24,800 Speaker 1: To continue supporting this kind of work, visit Herald online 502 00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:30,400 Speaker 1: dot com slash podcasts and consider a digital subscription. And 503 00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:33,320 Speaker 1: for more podcasts for my Heart Radio, visit the I 504 00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:37,360 Speaker 1: Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to 505 00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:38,200 Speaker 1: your favorite shows