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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,

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Speaker 2: my name is Noel.

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Speaker 3: They called me Ben. We're joined as always with our

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Speaker 3: super producer Andrew the try Force Howard. Most importantly, you

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Speaker 3: are here. That makes this the stuff they don't want

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Speaker 3: you to know. We're back from a brief break. We

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Speaker 3: had some classic episodes as we were all off on

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Speaker 3: separating collective adventures. We hope you had a great series

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Speaker 3: of holiday adventures as well. This one reminded me a

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Speaker 3: little bit, you guys, of our earlier conversation on how

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Speaker 3: to navigate the holidays. Remember we did a whole episode

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Speaker 3: about that.

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Speaker 4: That has some seriously good intel. I think for the

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Speaker 4: folks out there, it can be tough, and it's only

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Speaker 4: getting tougher with these trying times.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but hey, spending time with family can be one

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Speaker 2: of the best things ever. And guys, I don't know

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Speaker 2: about y'all, it was wonderful this year.

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Speaker 4: Oh it wasn't too bad for me either. My chosen

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Speaker 4: family in general. Did you guys see there's an article

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Speaker 4: that was floating around about the idea of like disconnecting

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Speaker 4: from family is becoming more and more common because of

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Speaker 4: like just irreconcilable differences, like to do with politics and

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Speaker 4: certain things like these kind of awkward dinner table conversations,

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Speaker 4: but just taken to the extreme. I think it's a

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Speaker 4: generational thing that I saw a piece about it that

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Speaker 4: apparently it's becoming super common.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, the holidays are always very difficult for me personally,

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Speaker 3: because you know, everybody's got a spectrum of experience, right,

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Speaker 3: and chosen family can be just as important as biological

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Speaker 3: family sometimes. Honestly, this is sadly familiar to a lot

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Speaker 3: of us in the crowd this evening. You can feel

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Speaker 3: like you're in a hostage situation when you're at the holidays.

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Speaker 3: You know, like, come on, uncle Ronnie, I asked you

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Speaker 3: to pass the you know, the mashed potatoes, not to

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Speaker 3: give me a hard sell on crypto or the gold

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Speaker 3: standard or whatever political bent is. In commemoration of everyone

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Speaker 3: who survived perhaps strange non consensual proselytization attempts at a

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Speaker 3: family gathering. We're going back to a conversation we had

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Speaker 3: earlier in twenty twenty four. What is Stockholm? This is

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Speaker 3: based on something from a listener mail segment. Why are

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Speaker 3: some people convinced Stockholm syndrome is fake?

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Speaker 4: It's a good question that we're going to get to

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Speaker 4: right after just a really quick word from a sponsor.

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Speaker 3: Here are the facts. All right, we've all heard of

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Speaker 3: Stockholm syndrome, right, it's not a medical condition where you

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Speaker 3: slowly turn into the city of Stockholm in Sweden. Oh,

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Speaker 3: that look like terrifying. It would look it would look

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Speaker 3: pretty weird, right.

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Speaker 4: I have become a very progressive city with really good

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Speaker 4: medical benefits and funding for the arts. Yes, actually sounds

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Speaker 4: kind of great.

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Speaker 3: I think more Stockholms in the world would be a

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Speaker 3: good thing. I agree with you. This particular Stockholm syndrome,

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Speaker 3: the one you hear about in film and probably tons

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Speaker 3: of true crime podcast It's an alleged psychological response wherein

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Speaker 3: someone held against their will, taken captives, somehow they begin

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Speaker 3: to identify positively with their captors.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. It's described and defined in a couple of different ways,

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Speaker 2: and we're going to get into the complexity of that

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Speaker 2: as we go here. But this concept of at least

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Speaker 2: in some way empathizing or finding a common there's like

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Speaker 2: a connection between captor and captive that is there.

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Speaker 4: Right, And you don't have to be a kidnapping victim

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Speaker 4: to understand this phenomenon as it's described anyway. I think

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Speaker 4: we've all maybe had jobs in the past or we

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Speaker 4: felt a little bit like we were experiencing Stockholm syndrome,

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Speaker 4: whether it be because we're so stressed about losing a

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Speaker 4: job that we just start to kind of empathize, I guess,

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Speaker 4: with really really awful employers because we feel like the

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Speaker 4: alternative is too terrifying to imagine.

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Speaker 3: And you could also see it applied to a microcosmic level,

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Speaker 3: a non crime level, just toxic relationships can lead to

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Speaker 3: something very much like something very similar to what we

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Speaker 3: call Stockholm syndrome. And that's because there's so many examples,

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Speaker 3: because the name, the nomenclature, the terminology is new. But

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Speaker 3: proponents of Stockholm syndrome will argue the phenomena itself is ancient.

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Speaker 3: For example, back in less secular days, rival religious forces

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Speaker 3: might take over a community and later the people who

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Speaker 3: have been taken over convert to that religion. So arguably

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Speaker 3: it's not us saying this. Arguably, Stockholm syndrome could be

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Speaker 3: an example of that.

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Speaker 4: There's so much psychology involved, Like I mean, you see

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Speaker 4: it in folks who are put through really really horrific interrogations.

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Speaker 4: For example, there's like mind games that are played by

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Speaker 4: one's captors to make like almost the good cop bad

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Speaker 4: cop kind of thing where you start to feel like

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Speaker 4: someone's in your corner and they're the only ones that

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Speaker 4: can rescue you from the situation that they themselves put

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Speaker 4: you in.

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Speaker 3: Start using the royal we, the inclusive pronouns, how they

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Speaker 3: get you. This identification is to your point, Matt, it's

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Speaker 3: a personal ideological exercise of empathy. Right, We're not so

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Speaker 3: different to you and Ie. The person who experiences Stockholm

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Speaker 3: syndrome has a rapport with their captor on what appears

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Speaker 3: to be a personal level, kind of like how you

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Speaker 3: would vibe with a close friend or a romantic partner.

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Speaker 3: And then the extra layer on the cake here is

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Speaker 3: that the person experiencing Stockholm syndrome also starts to identify

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Speaker 3: with the agenda and demands of the captor. So Stockholm

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Speaker 3: syndrome argues that if you are kidnapped in certain circumstances,

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Speaker 3: even if your captors have the opposite ideology that you

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Speaker 3: subscribe to. Over time, you start to lean toward the

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Speaker 3: power structure in which you exist, which is another comp

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Speaker 3: for this would be prisoners of war, right, maybe American

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Speaker 3: military members held by communist forces back in the day

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Speaker 3: who eventually said, there's something to this, Carl Marx guy.

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Speaker 4: I mean, it's an odd kind of self preservation mechanism

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Speaker 4: in a way, right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's one of the big questions, right, Is it

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Speaker 2: a psychological condition, a strategy that can be employed, or

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Speaker 2: a coping mechanism or other or some combination, you know.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, right? And this obviously, folks, this does not happen

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Speaker 3: in every kidnapping, every hostage situation, every toxic relationship. As

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Speaker 3: a matter of fact, as we'll come to find the

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Speaker 3: smartest people in the field right now, still don't know

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Speaker 3: how often this happens overall and exactly what mix of

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Speaker 3: factors lead to this alleged phenomena occurring. But we do

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Speaker 3: know the human face of this. We know the stories

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Speaker 3: that led to both the existing of Stockholm syndrome in

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Speaker 3: public in the public sphere, as well as the problems

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Speaker 3: with whether or not, Stockholm syndrome exists. One of the

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Speaker 3: most famous examples. I can't believe this is over half

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Speaker 3: a century ago now is a newspaper eiress Patricia Hurst

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Speaker 3: Patty to her friends, we all remember when she got kidnapped.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that's when the nineteen year old daughter of

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Speaker 2: this huge, well known person, mister Hurst, was kidnapped by

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Speaker 2: the Symbionese Liberation Army. This is nineteen seventy four. Well,

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Speaker 2: it's a long story, and I guess let's tell you.

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Speaker 2: Because she got kidnapped and then things started getting weird,

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Speaker 2: at least the information that was coming out to people

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Speaker 2: via newspapers like mister Hurst's.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's a good connection there. It's surreal. The

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Speaker 3: reason she was kidnapped the SLA Symbionese Liberation Army. They're

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Speaker 3: like a far leftist terrorist group. Basically, they wanted a

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Speaker 3: high value target for leverage because they wanted the authorities

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Speaker 3: in California to free two of their members from incarceration.

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Speaker 3: And they said, we need we need a VIP hostage

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Speaker 3: and we can ransom off this hostage and exchange for

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Speaker 3: our compatriots Patty Hurst to get This is yes, an heiress,

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Speaker 3: but more importantly, for the SLA, she is convenient. This

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Speaker 3: sounds so dumb, but they picked her because her apartment

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Speaker 3: was near the SLA hideout. They were like, what am

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Speaker 3: I going to drive across town through California traffic just

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Speaker 3: for a hostage? What are the chances?

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Speaker 4: That's so funny.

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Speaker 2: Well, it makes it feel like it was an a

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Speaker 2: crime of opportunity, right, oh, Patty Hurst lives over there. Shoot.

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Speaker 3: It's like, you know, you may have a favorite grocery store,

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Speaker 3: but the grocery store you go to most often is

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Speaker 3: the one closest to you, you know, And that's kind

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Speaker 3: of what they did. They went to the closest grocery store.

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Speaker 3: California did not free the SLA members. The organization pivoted

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Speaker 3: to this other request. It's a story all its own,

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Speaker 3: maybe fit for ridiculous history. But to your earlier point there,

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Speaker 3: things got weird so quickly. Hostage situation is never pleasant.

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Speaker 3: It is incredibly dangerous. Multiple people are being held hostage

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Speaker 3: for a multitude of reasons across the world today. Hurst

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Speaker 3: was kept in a closet and blindfolded for weeks. Over time,

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Speaker 3: her captors would say that she earned things like a

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Speaker 3: flashlight for reading literature from this terrorist group, so she

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Speaker 3: could get the blindfold removed in the closet and have

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Speaker 3: a flashlight and read the stuff they allowed her to read.

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Speaker 4: I mean, isn't it a kind of conditioning in a

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Speaker 4: way if you think about it, sort of like the

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Speaker 4: way you train an animal. You know, you train an

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Speaker 4: animal by oftentimes being kind of mean and then giving

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Speaker 4: a treat of some kind, you know, giving some sort

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Speaker 4: of reward, but usually there is some sort of well

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Speaker 4: not necessarily violence, some sort of unpleasant kind of forcing,

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Speaker 4: you know, behavior on a creature when you're trying to

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Speaker 4: train it. Carrots and sticks, Yeah, yeah, exactly. It certainly

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Speaker 4: seems like there's a combination of carrots and sticks. I'm

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Speaker 4: just trying to like wrap my head around how our

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Speaker 4: minds kind of Yeah, what's the word acclimate to this

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Speaker 4: kind of thing? Because to me, at the end of

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Speaker 4: the day, it is about acclamation to a really nasty situation,

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Speaker 4: and to keep us from kind of going insane, we

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Speaker 4: sort of go a different kind of insane.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, the mind is malleable, which is a tremendous advantage

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Speaker 3: and a tremendous danger to the question about sticks.

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Speaker 1: And all.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, she was repeatedly threatened with death, like every day

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Speaker 3: they said, you know, we're going to kill you. On

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Speaker 3: a lighter pop culture note, if you are not familiar

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Speaker 3: with the Hurst case, maybe you're familiar with The Princess Bride,

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Speaker 3: where a spoiler the dread Pirate Roberts does about the

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Speaker 3: same thing to the protagonist of The Prince's Bride, I'm

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Speaker 3: going tomorrow, I'm going to kill you. Tomorrow, I'm going

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Speaker 3: to kill you and then lo and behold. Ultimately our

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Speaker 3: protagonist becomes the next dread Pirate Roberts.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, spoiler alerted, just a spoilers.

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Speaker 2: Just say it to the animal training thing, often, you

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Speaker 2: don't train an animal by pointing a gun at it

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Speaker 2: and saying sit.

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Speaker 4: You know. That's what I'm trying to reconcile because even

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Speaker 4: with training, it's not all pleasant, but you're also not

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Speaker 4: necessarily whipping the animal or like you know there. I

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Speaker 4: guess it's different depending on the animal. Like horses, you

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Speaker 4: certainly are applying a bit, you know, putting like a

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Speaker 4: bit in their mouth and sometimes whipping them and getting

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Speaker 4: them to be sort of under your thumb. But then

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Speaker 4: that's where the whole carrot and stick thing comes from,

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Speaker 4: isn't it's horse training.

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Speaker 3: That's exactly where it comes from. Yeah, and it's also

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Speaker 3: positive reinforcement, right is, in the non scientific sense, is

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Speaker 3: huge and does a better job of incurring loyalty, which

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Speaker 3: is really what you're going for with indoctrination. Check out

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Speaker 3: our episodes on cults.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, and if that's the only thing you have

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Speaker 2: access to, right, the literature that she's being supplied, then

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Speaker 2: your mind is kind of racing inside that blindfold with

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Speaker 2: the threat of death. But then when you have a moment,

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Speaker 2: the thoughts that are coming into your head are the

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Speaker 2: ones that they've curated for.

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Speaker 3: You, right, Yeah, another cult in doctrination technique right limit

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Speaker 3: access to information, or diplomatically put curate it. Hurst eventually

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Speaker 3: is allowed to leave the closet for brief periods to

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Speaker 3: eat meals. She's still blindfolded so that she doesn't clock

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Speaker 3: where she's at, and she's allowed to participate in political discussions.

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Speaker 3: That's a reward for doing the whole work and reading. Eventually,

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Speaker 3: as their plans on the SLA's part keep going sideways,

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Speaker 3: they offer Patricia Hurst a choice. They say, we're not

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Speaker 3: going to kill you. As a matter of fact, we

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Speaker 3: can release you or you can join our organization's interest

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Speaker 3: into it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, gosh, I mean it really does mean. I'm sorry

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Speaker 4: I keep getting hung up on this, but it starts

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Speaker 4: to make me think about the behavior of cult leaders

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Speaker 4: as well, you know, and just the conditioning that goes

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Speaker 4: on in cults where certainly people join of their own

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Speaker 4: volition or free will at first, but then their behavior

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Speaker 4: becomes less and less about what they would normally do

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Speaker 4: and is more molded in the image or in the

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Speaker 4: interest of the cult leader, and oftentimes not in their

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Speaker 4: best interest at all. But yet somehow, like for example,

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Speaker 4: like Heaven's Gate, these people took their own lives, you know,

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Speaker 4: at the a behest of this cult leader, and they

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Speaker 4: believed that that was the right thing to do. But

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Speaker 4: that is the very definition of a behavior that is

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Speaker 4: not in one's best interest.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Again, please do check out our episodes of videos

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Speaker 3: on how to start a cult and big thanks to

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Speaker 3: our bells, Chuck Bryant, Jonathan Strictly, who else. There were

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Speaker 3: several people in those videos. But we give you a

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Speaker 3: step by step process of indoctrination. Again, and that's because

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Speaker 3: it's a rubric it's a set of tactics that is

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Speaker 3: ideologically agnostic. It'll work for a far right terrorist organization,

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Speaker 3: a far left terrorist organization, any kind of religious sect

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Speaker 3: you can imagine, and it worked for Patty Hurst at least.

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Speaker 3: That's the argument that we'll see in court because after

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Speaker 3: weeks of being indoctrinated, arguably brainwashed, when she was given

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Speaker 3: the choice, it was a false decision. They knew what

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Speaker 3: she was going to choose, because they had already primed

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Speaker 3: her and groomed her to do so. She chose to

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Speaker 3: stay and fight with the SLA and she put out

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Speaker 3: announcements to the media to this effect.

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Speaker 4: On the flip side of that, though, Ben, is there

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Speaker 4: not a part of this that does somewhat remove the

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Speaker 4: agency from an individual. Is there no chance that she

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Speaker 4: really just did, in some small way identify with their cause.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's excellent foreshadowing there because and that's why we're

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Speaker 3: also introducing the idea of the legal argument, right, because

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Speaker 3: the Hearst family was able to afford the best lawyers,

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Speaker 3: and they did need the lawyers, because this was not

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Speaker 3: just a statement of moral support on Herst side. In fact,

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Speaker 3: after these statements were released, she went on to assist

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Speaker 3: the group in bank robberies and other crimes. She eventually,

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Speaker 3: spoiler alert, gets arrested on September eighteenth, nineteen seventy five.

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Speaker 3: I really feel like we should do an entire episode

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Speaker 3: of something just on this. Okay. So she's in the system,

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Speaker 3: back in the system again for a couple of weeks,

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Speaker 3: and she renounces her allegiance to this group. At the trial,

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Speaker 3: she and her legal team claim she was coerced, she

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Speaker 3: was threatened, she was under duress. This whole thing was

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Speaker 3: a survival strategy.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and you can see that, right. Your logical brain says, oh, okay,

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Speaker 2: that kind of makes sense. But if we take ourselves

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Speaker 2: back and you think, okay, the granddaughter of William randolph Hurst,

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Speaker 2: literally a titan of American industry, has taken a photograph

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Speaker 2: with herself holding a gun in front of this flag, right,

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Speaker 2: And that's after all of the newspaper stories about granddaughter

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Speaker 2: of William Randolph Hurst missing, just coming at you and

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Speaker 2: coming at you. I imagining just a member of the

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Speaker 2: public experiencing this. And then you see that photograph and

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Speaker 2: then you hear her denounce her entire family and the

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Speaker 2: fortune that she would eventually come into and just how

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Speaker 2: shocking that would be. You can see how a legal

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Speaker 2: team then in the time we're talking about, would need

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Speaker 2: a very strong argument to kind of explain the behaviors

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Speaker 2: that everybody witnessed publicly.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well said, because straight up insanity defenses almost never work.

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Speaker 3: That's like buying a lottery ticket, winning five dollars and

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Speaker 3: then spending that on another series of lottery tickets and

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Speaker 3: winning all of those. The odds are against you in

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Speaker 3: court to try to plead insanity. This is happening in

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Speaker 3: the public square, right, she gets sentenced. There's life in

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Speaker 3: prison on the table. She gets pardoned, surprised, she gets released.

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Speaker 3: And when the the defense team is putting together their argument,

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Speaker 3: like you said, something needs to be really solid and compelling. Here,

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Speaker 3: they look to a case over in Sweden less than

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Speaker 3: around about a year before Hurst was kidnapped, there was

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Speaker 3: a bank robbery in Stockholm and this led to the

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Speaker 3: first description of what we call Stockholm syndrome. Today, we'll

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Speaker 3: take a break for a word from our sponsors, and

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Speaker 3: then we're gonna get a little cinematic and we've returned

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Speaker 3: tri force. Can you hit us with some cool heist music? Yeah?

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Speaker 4: There it is, man, we're dropping down from the ceiling.

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Speaker 3: What's the origin story of Stockholm syndrome. Let's really get into.

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Speaker 4: The moment there in seventy three, we definitely talked about

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Speaker 4: this on that Listener Mail episode. Let's go into a

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Speaker 4: little more depth here. On the morning of August twenty third,

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Speaker 4: nineteen seventy three, and escaped convict by the name of

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Speaker 4: yan Eric Olsen entered the Sveragas Credits Bunkin, which is

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Speaker 4: a busy bank and an upscale neighborhood in Stockholm, which

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Speaker 4: on paper looks like it should be pronounced normal Stork square.

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Speaker 4: That is not how it's pronounced. Maddie, we help us

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Speaker 4: out with this. I can't even remember you just told

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Speaker 4: me off, Mike, and it's already left my brain place.

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Speaker 2: I might be completely wrong, but I heard it sounds

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Speaker 2: like Normum's story.

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Speaker 4: Okay, h all right, I got a y sound from

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Speaker 4: a g language. How about that?

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Speaker 3: So yan Eric gets into this bank, he's he's strapped,

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Speaker 3: not everybody in sweetness strapped. He's got a submachine gun.

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Speaker 3: He fakes an American accent and he yells.

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Speaker 2: The party's just good cow bunga dudes, doesn't he have

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Speaker 2: like a wig on too.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, he's got a wig. He's in a he's in

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Speaker 3: a disguise, both audibly and physically.

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Speaker 4: It's very point break kind of vibes. I don't know

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Speaker 4: why I'm thinking that, but he did use said so

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Speaker 4: machine gun to wound, thankfully, just wound a policeman who

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Speaker 4: responded to one of those silent alarms. It's like the

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Speaker 4: bane of bank robbery. Now, don't you do it. Don't

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Speaker 4: you do it, lady, I see what you're thinking. Don't

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Speaker 4: do it. But she did it. They did it. Whomever

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Speaker 4: did it, and this policeman did respond to that call

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Speaker 4: for help.

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Speaker 3: And after things were surprised, things often go sideways in

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Speaker 3: a heist. After the wounding of this police officer, this

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Speaker 3: robber yon Eric takes four bank employees hostage. Yon Eric

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Speaker 3: get this is conducting this bank robbery while he's on

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Speaker 3: vacation because Sweden is one of those countries that lets

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Speaker 3: convicts take vacation from prison. He had already been convicted.

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Speaker 3: He was serving a three year sentence for grand larceny.

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Speaker 3: And I guess the folks in charge of the prison

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Speaker 3: system were way more chill than they are in the

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Speaker 3: United States.

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Speaker 4: Man, man, it seems like the prisoners in Europe get

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Speaker 4: treated better than the average citizens here in the United States.

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Speaker 4: Not to be too hyperbolic about it, but yeah, sorry,

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Speaker 4: we just after all this Luigi Mangioni talked that he've

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Speaker 4: been doing lately, and the state of healthcare and just

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Speaker 4: you know, wealth disparities in general. Talking about this kind

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Speaker 4: of stuff really does sort of bum you out.

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Speaker 3: Check out the pictures of Scandinavian prisons. You know what

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Speaker 3: I mean.

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Speaker 4: It's like an Ikea nice college apartments, I know exactly,

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Speaker 4: It's like those little sample rooms and an Ikea show floor.

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Speaker 3: So he has God on furlough because he's being so

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Speaker 3: cool in prison, and as soon as he gets out,

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Speaker 3: he goes on this bank robbery and he says to

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Speaker 3: the authorities, you need to give me the equivalent of

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Speaker 3: seven hundred thousand dollars in Swedish and foreign currency. Also,

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Speaker 3: I want to get away car, and it better be

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Speaker 3: a sweet getaway car. Also, you gotta let out my

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Speaker 3: buddy Clark Olafson, not Olsen olla Son. He is currently

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Speaker 3: locked up for armed robbery and aiding in the murder

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Speaker 3: of a police officer in nineteen sixty six, So that

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Speaker 3: guy's under the jail.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a tall order, wouldn't you say, releasing a

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Speaker 4: prisoner of that caliber. We're in a country where there

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Speaker 4: isn't nearly the level of violent crime that we have here. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: you're right on that level of violent crime. Point too,

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Speaker 4: This is so rare that this kind of armed hostage

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Speaker 4: crisis hasn't really happened in Sweden. Everybody's tuned into the news.

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Speaker 4: No one, including the police, are sure what to do.

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Speaker 3: And the police say, okay, well, let's get this Clark guy.

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Speaker 3: Maybe he can help us in the hostage negotiations. So

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Speaker 3: they talk with Clark before they release him into the bank,

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Speaker 3: and they say, look, you're going to be working for us.

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Speaker 3: You're going to help de escalate this. That's why we're

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Speaker 3: sending you in. We're not sending you in to ride

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Speaker 3: shotgun in a getaway car, buddy, We're sending you in

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Speaker 3: to help us. He complies. Within hours, the police deliver Clark,

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Speaker 3: they deliver the ransom money, and they deliver a getaway car,

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Speaker 3: which is a pretty sweet looking blue Ford Mustang with

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Speaker 3: a full tank. A guess nice a little flashy for

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Speaker 3: a getaway car.

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Speaker 4: Probably just stick out like a sore thumb there in Stockholm,

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Speaker 4: don't you think?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? Oh yeah, why do I get a VW or exactly,

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Speaker 3: he's in very good heightst etiquette.

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Speaker 2: Just a quick little detail to add in here. One

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Speaker 2: of the things that Yan brought into the bank robbery

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Speaker 2: initially was a transistor radio, so he could literally put

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Speaker 2: on the radio with these four hostages and listen to

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Speaker 2: the stories that were being reported about him robbing the

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Speaker 2: bank as he's doing it, Which is an interesting tactic,

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Speaker 2: right You've we've seen in Hollywood films and stuff like

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Speaker 2: somebody bringing in a police radio or something like that

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Speaker 2: to scan to scan all the channels and see what

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Speaker 2: the chatter is. In this case, he's just listening to

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Speaker 2: the radio and you can imagine I don't know, I

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Speaker 2: can imagine him being in there and then the hostages

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Speaker 2: hearing the police response right as it's occurring, and I

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Speaker 2: can only imagine that added to the terror feeling like

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Speaker 2: something horrible is about to happen.

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Speaker 3: Oh, oh, Kristin, turn it up.

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Speaker 2: They mentioned you, yeah, Kristin Enmark, right.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah. The four hostages are Kristin Enmark, Bergeta Lundebland,

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Speaker 3: Elizabeth Oldgren and ven Softstrom. So three women, one dude.

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Speaker 3: And this this gets to a point where the Swedish

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Speaker 3: authorities are saying, you know, look, we're trying to be cool,

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Speaker 3: we're trying to save lives, but we are not going

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Speaker 3: to let you leave with those hostages in this ford mustang.

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Speaker 3: Where's that's a step too far for us. That's a

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Speaker 3: rubicon we do not cross.

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Speaker 2: And that mustang is pretty tiny.

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Speaker 3: And that mustang is it's going to be cramped, you.

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Speaker 4: Know, Is that that's like a two door though probably right,

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Speaker 4: so you'd have to like literally pop the seats forward

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Speaker 4: to get people into the back.

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Speaker 3: It's yeah, it's it's going to be unpleasant to have

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Speaker 3: six people in there. And as a result, the authorities

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Speaker 3: and these criminals they're to stand off. The robbers hold

433
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:22,000
Speaker 3: the hostages in one of the bank's vaults for six days,

434
00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:25,440
Speaker 3: and they're hank it. They're there for a week together.

435
00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:31,080
Speaker 3: Olsen says, look, if you attempt to breach this structure

436
00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:35,040
Speaker 3: with say, tear gas, then I will kill all four

437
00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:39,320
Speaker 3: of these people, and the police eventually do mount an

438
00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:43,440
Speaker 3: attack with tear gas. This causes the robbers to surrender

439
00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:48,320
Speaker 3: all hostages survive. Olsen, the original guy is sentenced to

440
00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:52,120
Speaker 3: ten years, but his pal Clark is ultimately acquitted.

441
00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:53,440
Speaker 4: Yeah.

442
00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:57,320
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, well, let's talk about what happened a couple

443
00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:02,400
Speaker 2: of days before they tear asked the place when the police,

444
00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:06,840
Speaker 2: the police didn't know who actually was in there at first, right,

445
00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:10,280
Speaker 2: they sent somebody in who they believed was the brother

446
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:15,040
Speaker 2: of the person they thought was committing this crime. And

447
00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:19,400
Speaker 2: that person walked up basically to the bank trying to say, hey, bro,

448
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:23,000
Speaker 2: it's me, it's your brother. But then I think it

449
00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:26,639
Speaker 2: was Jan who fired several shots through the bank window

450
00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:29,679
Speaker 2: or through the bank doors and the windows at this person,

451
00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:34,639
Speaker 2: or at least to scare this person away. And that

452
00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:36,960
Speaker 2: is one of the primary things that occurred where the

453
00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:40,160
Speaker 2: folks being held hostage in the bank started to think,

454
00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:44,720
Speaker 2: oh crap, these police might actually get us killed. And

455
00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:47,879
Speaker 2: you know, you can feel that already occurring before the

456
00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:49,199
Speaker 2: gas attack.

457
00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:53,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, as Enmark recalls in specific, police started messing up

458
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:58,280
Speaker 3: fairly early on Jan Eric Olcid had successfully disguised his

459
00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:02,200
Speaker 3: appearance and his voice, remember that American accent, so police

460
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:07,600
Speaker 3: did misidentify him. Initially. They confused him with another infamous

461
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:11,439
Speaker 3: bank robber who had previously escaped from prison, not on furlough,

462
00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:14,639
Speaker 3: not on vacation, he was supposed to still be in prison.

463
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:18,160
Speaker 3: They sent the guy's brother in along with a police officer,

464
00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:22,800
Speaker 3: thinking they could talk him down. John Eric understandably freaked out.

465
00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:24,840
Speaker 3: He doesn't know this guy from a canna paint. He

466
00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:28,719
Speaker 3: fires at the strangers, and then there's this absurdist Vonnegut

467
00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:33,000
Speaker 3: esque side note. The bank robber that the Swedish authorities

468
00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:37,240
Speaker 3: thought was inside was actually on the run and made

469
00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:40,320
Speaker 3: it to Hawaii, and he was pissed off. He was

470
00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:43,200
Speaker 3: so mad that he was accused of being behind the heist.

471
00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:48,200
Speaker 3: He called Swedish police and said, hey, come on, guys,

472
00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:51,120
Speaker 3: be cool, I'm not the hostage taker here. And when

473
00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:56,680
Speaker 3: he called that's what led to him getting extradited, apprehended,

474
00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:59,720
Speaker 3: extradited and arrested and put back in prison.

475
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:02,760
Speaker 4: So we were talking about how rare this kind of

476
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:05,680
Speaker 4: stuff is, and there just happens to be another guy

477
00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:08,320
Speaker 4: who was also on the lamb that was a candidate

478
00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:08,680
Speaker 4: for this.

479
00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:10,480
Speaker 3: That's really weird.

480
00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:12,440
Speaker 4: It's a perfect storm of circumstances.

481
00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:17,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, they were working with information asymmetry, right, They didn't

482
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:21,320
Speaker 3: know what they didn't know. And also we see, you know,

483
00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:26,400
Speaker 3: a little bit of foreshadowing of the great controversy of

484
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:31,040
Speaker 3: Stockholm syndrome. And we'll get back to that moment later. Right,

485
00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:36,959
Speaker 3: we know that there were multiple instances wherein according to

486
00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:41,120
Speaker 3: the first hand experience of the hostages, the police seemed

487
00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:44,080
Speaker 3: like their actions might be as dangerous as those of

488
00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:48,200
Speaker 3: the robbers. All Right, something curious happens though, Right, the

489
00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:53,400
Speaker 3: hostages are released and none of them will testify against

490
00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:57,520
Speaker 3: either robber, against either criminal. In fact, they begin raising

491
00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:01,920
Speaker 3: money for the criminal's defense fund, which is pretty fascinating

492
00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:05,800
Speaker 3: when you think about it. You know, it seems counterintuitive, right.

493
00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:10,120
Speaker 3: One of the first questions the police have is have

494
00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:14,440
Speaker 3: these victims somehow been on the inside of the heist?

495
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:18,160
Speaker 3: You know, are they co conspirators? It didn't seem to

496
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:21,440
Speaker 3: be the case. Unlike the Patty Hurst situation. They did

497
00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:24,760
Speaker 3: not recant their support. If you continue to visit the

498
00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:30,080
Speaker 3: robbers after everything shook out in the aftermath, and it

499
00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:33,640
Speaker 3: looks like they genuinely became friends, like lifelong friends.

500
00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:38,360
Speaker 2: Well, they spent one pretty weird week together, that's for sure.

501
00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:39,160
Speaker 3: Exactly.

502
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:42,880
Speaker 4: I will always have the trauma bonding right, Like you

503
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:45,360
Speaker 4: can trauma bond with somebody even if they themselves are

504
00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:47,880
Speaker 4: the ones responsible for creating the trauma. Like I don't

505
00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:51,680
Speaker 4: think our brains always differentiate those kinds of things. It's

506
00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:54,360
Speaker 4: like it's a defense mechanism, like I was saying earlier.

507
00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:56,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, agreed.

508
00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:03,000
Speaker 3: So Swedish authorities call it in a criminologist and psychologist

509
00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:08,040
Speaker 3: named Neil's help you with us on Matt Bejiru Beirut

510
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:14,760
Speaker 3: not native Swedish speakers, if they they're Matt. He is

511
00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:19,080
Speaker 3: the guy who invents or coinvents the term Stockholm syndrome.

512
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:23,280
Speaker 3: Because again, pretty much the entire nation of Sweden is

513
00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:27,840
Speaker 3: watching this. They're glued to the screen. Even to give

514
00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:31,320
Speaker 3: us a sense of the magnitude, a higher percentage of

515
00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:35,520
Speaker 3: the Swedish population is watching this than the percentage of

516
00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:38,479
Speaker 3: people who watch the OJ Simpson trial or the car

517
00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:42,000
Speaker 3: or the infamous car chase. Like everybody is watching this

518
00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:47,520
Speaker 3: and they want answers. And this guy, this psychologist, he

519
00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:53,160
Speaker 3: analyzes the victims' reactions and what he understands to be

520
00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:56,000
Speaker 3: their accounts of being held hostage, and he says, look,

521
00:31:56,360 --> 00:32:01,640
Speaker 3: these folks have been brainwashed. He originally called this Norman

522
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:06,800
Speaker 3: Story syndrobit after the square, how do we do that?

523
00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:12,240
Speaker 3: Was it not bad? All right? So the Norman story syndrome.

524
00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:16,800
Speaker 3: Outside of Sweden, they started calling it Stockholm syndrome because honestly,

525
00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:20,040
Speaker 3: it's easier for non Swedish speakers to pronounce. And you

526
00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:24,880
Speaker 3: hear it name checked in fiction, true crime, news, kidnappings, abusive,

527
00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:28,520
Speaker 3: romantic or familial relationships. It seems like a huge deal

528
00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:33,040
Speaker 3: and a deep rabbit hole of psychology. However, to this day,

529
00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:37,560
Speaker 3: some critics and some experts will tell you this syndrome

530
00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:41,440
Speaker 3: is pretty much made up. We'll be back after a

531
00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:53,480
Speaker 3: word from our sponsors. Here's where it gets crazy. Most

532
00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:57,320
Speaker 3: of the public long ago accepted Stockholm syndrome as a real,

533
00:32:57,480 --> 00:33:01,800
Speaker 3: if rare thing, but it's academic and scientific reputation is

534
00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:08,560
Speaker 3: far less secure. It's often referred to as a contested illness,

535
00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:11,680
Speaker 3: which is a very polite way of acknowledging that a

536
00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:14,960
Speaker 3: ton of experts seem to think beat me here, Andrew

537
00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:16,200
Speaker 3: seem to think it's bold.

538
00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:20,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it is interesting when you've got a term

539
00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:23,200
Speaker 2: like this, it does feel like it's a quick and

540
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:26,719
Speaker 2: easy definition when somebody uses it, like in a sentence

541
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:29,480
Speaker 2: or to describe something. In my head, at least for

542
00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:31,760
Speaker 2: a long time, it meant, oh, identifying with a bad

543
00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:36,120
Speaker 2: guy when I hear Stockholm syndrome, like that's all. That's

544
00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:39,920
Speaker 2: all I hear. But then if you actually look into

545
00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:41,920
Speaker 2: it and you try and figure out what is the

546
00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:45,080
Speaker 2: definition of Stockholm syndrome, you can look at places like

547
00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:48,320
Speaker 2: the Cleveland Clinic, and you know, the Mayo Clinic and

548
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:51,640
Speaker 2: Psychology Today and all these places, and it's described a

549
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:56,400
Speaker 2: little bit differently everywhere, and then you realize that the

550
00:33:56,560 --> 00:34:00,240
Speaker 2: DSM doesn't even have it right all right.

551
00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:04,920
Speaker 3: The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, the DSM

552
00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:10,160
Speaker 3: textbook familiar to any psychology college student. It is the

553
00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:16,520
Speaker 3: bible of psychiatric illnesses and disorders here in the United States.

554
00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:21,440
Speaker 3: It is a work in progress. It's highly imperfect. But

555
00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:24,120
Speaker 3: Stockholm syndrome is not in there. And if you go

556
00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:27,360
Speaker 3: to folks like Paul Appelbaum, for a long time was

557
00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:30,879
Speaker 3: the chair of the DSM Steering Committee, he will tell

558
00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:35,080
Speaker 3: you they can't put Stockholm syndrome in there because there's

559
00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:40,080
Speaker 3: no consistent body of academic research on this. Stockholm syndrome

560
00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:44,960
Speaker 3: as a concept never met the requirements to even get

561
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:49,960
Speaker 3: to the review stage for the DSM. Further, everybody seemed

562
00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:53,000
Speaker 3: to know that because no one ever submitted it for

563
00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:56,400
Speaker 3: inclusion in the first place. Nobody ever even pitched the

564
00:34:56,480 --> 00:35:01,480
Speaker 3: idea of making this an official meant condition. There are

565
00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:06,719
Speaker 3: no identified diagnostic criteria at all for the alleged condition.

566
00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:10,640
Speaker 3: And to your point, it does seem that the origin

567
00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:15,759
Speaker 3: story of Stockholm syndrome is widely misunderstood and perhaps in

568
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:19,759
Speaker 3: some cases purposely misunderstood. This is where we got to

569
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:22,200
Speaker 3: go back to one of the one of the hostages

570
00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:27,000
Speaker 3: we mentioned earlier, Kristin Nmark. She had a great conversation

571
00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:31,439
Speaker 3: with a therapist named Alan Wade that you can read

572
00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:34,320
Speaker 3: in depth in the Independent, and she's been on record

573
00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:38,840
Speaker 3: multiple times with her problems concerning how the concept of

574
00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:42,440
Speaker 3: Stockholm syndrome was applied to her story and the story

575
00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:43,680
Speaker 3: of those other hostages.

576
00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:49,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's pretty incredible. Yeah, the one the thing I

577
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:53,319
Speaker 2: read ben was in the ABC, but it's the Australian

578
00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:58,600
Speaker 2: Broadcasting Corporation. I think where there's there's it's probably part

579
00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:02,200
Speaker 2: of the same interview. But it is just fascinating the

580
00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:06,280
Speaker 2: amount of things that people just didn't have the full

581
00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:11,200
Speaker 2: context for when her story is being described and talked

582
00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:13,759
Speaker 2: about back in seventy three, seventy four, when all this

583
00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:16,920
Speaker 2: stuff is going down, there's just so much nuance to

584
00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:20,000
Speaker 2: it that she talks to this person about. So this

585
00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:22,799
Speaker 2: is a twenty three year old young professional working at

586
00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:27,000
Speaker 2: the bank. Curiously, she's described as a stenographer at the bank.

587
00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:29,000
Speaker 2: But we're not sure what that means or what that

588
00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:30,839
Speaker 2: would be as a role in a bank.

589
00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:33,239
Speaker 4: I guess we know that more in terms of like

590
00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:37,080
Speaker 4: a court, you know, documentary and who's like taking things

591
00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:39,320
Speaker 4: down that maybe in Europe it's a term for someone

592
00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:40,879
Speaker 4: who does banking, who knows.

593
00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:45,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, maybe everything has to be on record at the bank.

594
00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:46,840
Speaker 2: You know, that would be important.

595
00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:50,279
Speaker 3: So I's just there typing when you walk in. I

596
00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:55,480
Speaker 3: think that's kind of cool. She is already immediately thrust

597
00:36:55,600 --> 00:37:00,920
Speaker 3: into a surreal, dare we say, dream like situation. This

598
00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:03,880
Speaker 3: is not a normal day, she would later tell The

599
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:07,240
Speaker 3: New Yorker in nineteen seventy four, I believed a maniac

600
00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:10,759
Speaker 3: had come into my life. I believed this was I

601
00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:14,880
Speaker 3: was seeing something that could only happen in America. Oh

602
00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:18,719
Speaker 3: As the American accent and the US already has kind

603
00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:19,480
Speaker 3: of a reputation.

604
00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:23,400
Speaker 2: Well, it's an American movie playing out in the bank

605
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:26,239
Speaker 2: that you're about. Like, her plans were to quit the

606
00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:28,799
Speaker 2: bank in a couple of weeks when this happened, So

607
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:30,520
Speaker 2: she was like, already, I'm gonna be out the door.

608
00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:32,120
Speaker 2: I don't have to deal with this anymore. And then

609
00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:32,920
Speaker 2: this happens.

610
00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:35,360
Speaker 4: Nah, you're right, I mean, I said, point break because

611
00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:39,799
Speaker 4: this scenario is the most cliche kind of like dramatic

612
00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:43,320
Speaker 4: type bank robbery scenario you could possibly envision.

613
00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:50,200
Speaker 3: And we mentioned earlier that n Mark's narrative, the narratives

614
00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:54,960
Speaker 3: of all the hostages don't jibe with the case the

615
00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:59,279
Speaker 3: police are trying to present. We mentioned how m Mark

616
00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:02,520
Speaker 3: says police started messing up fairly often. That's something the

617
00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:07,680
Speaker 3: other three hostages said. We mentioned the misidentification on the

618
00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:12,719
Speaker 3: part of the police. These are the high points in

619
00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:16,319
Speaker 3: the narrative difference. But there's a lot more going on there,

620
00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:20,120
Speaker 3: and some of these things are things we will never

621
00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:23,640
Speaker 3: really know, right, We won't know the full details of

622
00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:26,280
Speaker 3: what went on in those vaults.

623
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:30,040
Speaker 2: Emotionally, so we know that at least we know Kristen

624
00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:34,080
Speaker 2: was tied her hands and her feet were bound at

625
00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:38,520
Speaker 2: least initially, so she's put into that place psychologically as

626
00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:39,839
Speaker 2: all of this stuff is playing out.

627
00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:45,040
Speaker 3: Yeah and yeah, let's focus there on the hostages, because

628
00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:50,680
Speaker 3: the actions of the police of law enforcement are really

629
00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:56,520
Speaker 3: putting the hostages in intense disease because they are hearing

630
00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:01,720
Speaker 3: these crazy bits of speculation in the media, They're hearing

631
00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:05,560
Speaker 3: these statements from law enforcement on that transistor radio, and

632
00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:09,359
Speaker 3: they are increasingly certain with every passing day, perhaps every

633
00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:12,640
Speaker 3: passing hour, that this is not going to end peacefully.

634
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:17,160
Speaker 3: This crisis is the first televised crime in the country.

635
00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:20,960
Speaker 3: In real time. Something like three quarters of the population

636
00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:24,399
Speaker 3: are tuning in just to get the latest updates, which

637
00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:26,719
Speaker 3: means that even if you don't own a radio or

638
00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:31,160
Speaker 3: read a newspaper or watch TV, you can't escape it.

639
00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:37,720
Speaker 3: Everybody is talking about this. So Olsen, our original bank robber,

640
00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:42,720
Speaker 3: yan Eric and Kristin Enmark, at separate times, both speak

641
00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:47,240
Speaker 3: to the Prime Minister of Sweden, and the Prime Minister

642
00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:51,360
Speaker 3: spends nearly an hour on the phone with Kristin and Mark,

643
00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:55,320
Speaker 3: and she tells him directly, I feel like the police

644
00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:58,000
Speaker 3: are gonna I feel like we're gonna die due to

645
00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:01,160
Speaker 3: police action. They're going to try to rescue us, They're

646
00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:04,680
Speaker 3: gonna botch it, and then we will be killed, and

647
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:07,760
Speaker 3: she later claimed this didn't come out for the public

648
00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:10,600
Speaker 3: for a while. She later claimed the Prime Minister of

649
00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:15,239
Speaker 3: Sweden said, look, if you get killed when police try

650
00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:19,239
Speaker 3: to de escalate this, you should be happy to have

651
00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:20,200
Speaker 3: died at your post.

652
00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:25,640
Speaker 4: Ooh, yikes, I mean, talk about a psychological switcherero there

653
00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:30,279
Speaker 4: when the hostages are beginning to identify more with their

654
00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:33,359
Speaker 4: captors than they are with their supposed rescuers, because they're

655
00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:36,719
Speaker 4: starting to see them as more of a threat than

656
00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:37,640
Speaker 4: the bank robbers.

657
00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:42,680
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, let's talk about the way Kristen describes the

658
00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:48,000
Speaker 2: situation after Clark, the other criminal, shows up on the scene.

659
00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:51,360
Speaker 2: She talks about how this other person came in and,

660
00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:54,600
Speaker 2: as we described, the police basically said Clark, you're going

661
00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:57,319
Speaker 2: in for our side to kind of take care of

662
00:40:57,360 --> 00:41:01,600
Speaker 2: this situation, to handle it a little bit. And according

663
00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:04,759
Speaker 2: to Kristen, she was very happy when this other guy

664
00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:08,160
Speaker 2: showed up because he actually showed kindness to the hostages,

665
00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:12,640
Speaker 2: specifically saying that he comforted me. He held my hand

666
00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:14,560
Speaker 2: and he said I'm going to see that Yan doesn't

667
00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:17,359
Speaker 2: hurt you. So you can imagine if you've got two

668
00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:21,560
Speaker 2: people simultaneously holding you hostage, but one of them is

669
00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:26,120
Speaker 2: good cop essentially, right, you can imagine a bond maybe

670
00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:29,880
Speaker 2: being formed with one and not with the other, or

671
00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:31,080
Speaker 2: in a different way at least.

672
00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:36,000
Speaker 3: Sure. Yeah, there's the identification again, the building of some

673
00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:40,000
Speaker 3: sort of rapport, and the construction of that rapport can

674
00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:46,120
Speaker 3: be exacerbated by contrast. Right, one of these is the

675
00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:50,640
Speaker 3: good cop, and that's the one that I will comply with. Right,

676
00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:54,360
Speaker 3: and again, jan Eric said, if you try a gas attack,

677
00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:57,600
Speaker 3: I'm going to kill the hostages. But even though the

678
00:41:57,640 --> 00:42:00,880
Speaker 3: hostages knew this, even though the police knew that he

679
00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:03,880
Speaker 3: said this, the police did so anyway, So if you

680
00:42:03,960 --> 00:42:06,760
Speaker 3: put yourself in the mind of the hostages, it starts

681
00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:10,239
Speaker 3: to look like the police may not super care what

682
00:42:10,440 --> 00:42:11,080
Speaker 3: happens to you.

683
00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:16,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, they were above the hostages drilling a hole in

684
00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:18,719
Speaker 2: the ceiling so they could drop the gas down into

685
00:42:19,120 --> 00:42:22,440
Speaker 2: and according to reports, hostages were down there going, please,

686
00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:25,040
Speaker 2: don't do this, Do not do this. Can't you hear

687
00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:27,239
Speaker 2: what this crazy guy is saying. He's gonna kill us.

688
00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:28,400
Speaker 2: Don't do this please?

689
00:42:29,719 --> 00:42:34,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, and so in the aftermath, the hostages seem pretty

690
00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:38,840
Speaker 3: friendly with jan Eric and with Clark, and then critical

691
00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:42,480
Speaker 3: of and downright hostile toward the police. So people are

692
00:42:42,520 --> 00:42:48,600
Speaker 3: asking what happened. You know, you can imagine a police

693
00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:51,640
Speaker 3: officer at the crowd going well, you know, we did

694
00:42:51,680 --> 00:42:55,680
Speaker 3: save your life, and then getting the cold shoulder. This

695
00:42:56,520 --> 00:43:02,800
Speaker 3: guy kneels, the psychiatrist we mentioned earlier. He realizes people

696
00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:07,840
Speaker 3: want an explanation. Sweden wants to know what happened, why

697
00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:11,160
Speaker 3: it happened, and why these people are acting this way right,

698
00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:15,960
Speaker 3: why they don't seem thankful for law enforcement. And now

699
00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:18,120
Speaker 3: they've got an expert who will give them a simple,

700
00:43:18,160 --> 00:43:21,520
Speaker 3: black and white answer. So surely, says the public, whatever

701
00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:25,319
Speaker 3: he says is correct. We want that explanation. Tell us

702
00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:28,640
Speaker 3: explain it. Let's move on. But what a lot of

703
00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:32,840
Speaker 3: the public doesn't know is this psychologist, the psychiatrist Nils

704
00:43:33,239 --> 00:43:37,920
Speaker 3: has never met nor treated miss in Mark. His speculation

705
00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:42,440
Speaker 3: is more like what Iffery and educated guesses, and before

706
00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:45,360
Speaker 3: people could apply even a little bit of critical thinking

707
00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:49,240
Speaker 3: or nuance or scrutiny to his statements, boom Patty Hurst.

708
00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:55,719
Speaker 3: And when that case happens, an excellent defense team figures out, Hey,

709
00:43:56,719 --> 00:44:01,200
Speaker 3: this is already in the public zeitgeist. Right, this cements

710
00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:05,800
Speaker 3: Stockholm syndrome as a real thing, the not just the

711
00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:11,560
Speaker 3: bank robbery in Sweden, but the almost immediate kidnapping scandal

712
00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:15,520
Speaker 3: with Hurst. It's a one to two combo for sure.

713
00:44:16,280 --> 00:44:18,160
Speaker 2: For sure, and just like in the Hirst case, with

714
00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:22,400
Speaker 2: these weird moments that the public ends up getting to

715
00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:25,680
Speaker 2: see in publications, right and in the news. There's a

716
00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:29,160
Speaker 2: moment just I think we should describe here when the

717
00:44:29,239 --> 00:44:32,920
Speaker 2: kidnapping is over in Stockholm, the initial one in seventy three,

718
00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:39,200
Speaker 2: the person Kristen is heard, is seen and heard saying Clark,

719
00:44:39,560 --> 00:44:43,120
Speaker 2: I'll see you again, as as he's being taken away,

720
00:44:43,160 --> 00:44:46,399
Speaker 2: as she's going into an ambulance. So it's almost as

721
00:44:46,480 --> 00:44:50,880
Speaker 2: though they are friends or maybe even romantically involved in

722
00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:54,560
Speaker 2: the way that that stated and experienced at the time. Right.

723
00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:56,840
Speaker 2: So when you combine I think all these things and

724
00:44:56,880 --> 00:44:59,439
Speaker 2: as you're saying with Patty Hurst, seeing that image that's

725
00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:01,560
Speaker 2: stuck in the mind of everybody with the gun and

726
00:45:01,640 --> 00:45:05,280
Speaker 2: the flag, the one two punch is perfect, Ben.

727
00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:09,120
Speaker 3: It's the I mean, I think you're right. The implications

728
00:45:09,160 --> 00:45:14,799
Speaker 3: get pretty disturbing because Stockholm syndrome appears to paint the

729
00:45:14,920 --> 00:45:20,880
Speaker 3: hostages as somehow weak willed or perhaps not fully mentally stable,

730
00:45:21,160 --> 00:45:23,759
Speaker 3: and if you look at their situation, their actions are

731
00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:28,439
Speaker 3: absolutely rational that therapists we mentioned earlier as a long

732
00:45:28,560 --> 00:45:33,200
Speaker 3: interview with in Mark which Grieve Before the Independent, Alan

733
00:45:33,239 --> 00:45:38,760
Speaker 3: Wade says, this hostage is watching police bungle the early

734
00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:42,359
Speaker 3: stages of this and notices she's becoming less safe rather

735
00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:46,080
Speaker 3: than more safe. The police action from the hostage perspective

736
00:45:46,320 --> 00:45:51,560
Speaker 3: is making things worse. The police may trigger these these fatalities,

737
00:45:51,680 --> 00:45:57,080
Speaker 3: and so Stockholm syndrome becomes a concept that can conveniently

738
00:45:57,160 --> 00:46:02,080
Speaker 3: invalidate the real concerns of those hostages and shift blame

739
00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:06,200
Speaker 3: away from the authorities, sort of matrix dodge the fact

740
00:46:06,239 --> 00:46:09,640
Speaker 3: that they didn't have rubric and they were messing up

741
00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:13,080
Speaker 3: a lot. This goes back to some stuff we were

742
00:46:13,120 --> 00:46:17,879
Speaker 3: mentioning earlier Noel like the idea of what you will

743
00:46:17,920 --> 00:46:21,240
Speaker 3: do to survive, sometimes called resistance theory.

744
00:46:21,520 --> 00:46:24,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, and Wade describes this as one of a long

745
00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:30,000
Speaker 4: list of resistance theories, such as identification with an aggressor,

746
00:46:31,719 --> 00:46:37,960
Speaker 4: being infantilized, trauma bonding, like we mentioned, a learned sense

747
00:46:38,120 --> 00:46:45,200
Speaker 4: of helplessness and internalization or false consciousness, and these all

748
00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:49,600
Speaker 4: seem to assume that people have not resisted violence, and

749
00:46:49,640 --> 00:46:52,960
Speaker 4: also seem to ignore what Wade calls careful analysis of

750
00:46:53,000 --> 00:46:55,400
Speaker 4: circumstances on the ground.

751
00:46:57,719 --> 00:47:01,200
Speaker 2: The Cleveland Clinic adds one other things into there as

752
00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:05,360
Speaker 2: a similar set of circumstances or a linked psychological condition.

753
00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:09,200
Speaker 2: Battered person syndrome is how it's stated. You can see

754
00:47:09,200 --> 00:47:11,320
Speaker 2: how that kind of like all the things you just

755
00:47:11,440 --> 00:47:14,759
Speaker 2: described their le and then combining it with that concept

756
00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:18,640
Speaker 2: of a singular person in someone's life that is the

757
00:47:18,680 --> 00:47:22,359
Speaker 2: aggressor and the abuser, but is also the comforter and

758
00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:25,440
Speaker 2: like the shared roles that that person may have in

759
00:47:25,440 --> 00:47:27,840
Speaker 2: someone's life. It feels very similar to this.

760
00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:32,720
Speaker 3: And of course, as we said, DSM is a work

761
00:47:32,760 --> 00:47:37,400
Speaker 3: in progress. Just because something is not in the DSM

762
00:47:37,560 --> 00:47:42,319
Speaker 3: right now does not automatically mean it is malarchy. But

763
00:47:42,440 --> 00:47:46,960
Speaker 3: there's no escaping the convenience of the story. It's cinematic,

764
00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:50,279
Speaker 3: you know. We also didn't mention this. Yeah, and Eric

765
00:47:50,880 --> 00:47:54,040
Speaker 3: kind of a smoke show. Pretty attractive dude, hot guy,

766
00:47:54,880 --> 00:47:57,200
Speaker 3: at least to the minds of the Swedish public. So

767
00:47:57,200 --> 00:47:59,960
Speaker 3: you got a good looking criminal, You got tense misstep

768
00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:04,000
Speaker 3: on both sides, life or death stakes. This is everything

769
00:48:04,040 --> 00:48:08,400
Speaker 3: you need for a summer blockbuster, and it ignores a

770
00:48:08,480 --> 00:48:12,480
Speaker 3: key fact that has baffled humans since people started peopling.

771
00:48:13,000 --> 00:48:16,920
Speaker 3: The human mind is complicated. It is not simple. It

772
00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:19,279
Speaker 3: takes in a lot of information, It does a lot

773
00:48:19,320 --> 00:48:23,200
Speaker 3: of stuff. The human mind does not know how the

774
00:48:23,280 --> 00:48:29,120
Speaker 3: human mind works. And that's why hostages don't get center stage,

775
00:48:29,239 --> 00:48:32,600
Speaker 3: even though they're the ones who almost died. Anytime their

776
00:48:32,640 --> 00:48:35,279
Speaker 3: first hand account differs from the narrative the law and

777
00:48:35,320 --> 00:48:38,520
Speaker 3: the media wants to push, they get kind of pushed

778
00:48:38,600 --> 00:48:44,319
Speaker 3: themselves off to the side. It's a way of invalidating

779
00:48:44,680 --> 00:48:50,359
Speaker 3: and diminishing and dismissing these lived experiences. And it's part

780
00:48:50,360 --> 00:48:53,560
Speaker 3: of a larger conspiracy. Honestly, in the n Mark case,

781
00:48:53,600 --> 00:48:59,799
Speaker 3: it's a conspiracy against women historically misdiagnosed from afar by

782
00:48:59,880 --> 00:49:05,120
Speaker 3: male psychiatrist with all kinds of bogus disorders like you know, hysteria.

783
00:49:06,840 --> 00:49:08,719
Speaker 3: That was a big one. Shout out to you or

784
00:49:08,840 --> 00:49:12,160
Speaker 3: not shout out, but the Yellow Wallpaper read it if

785
00:49:12,160 --> 00:49:12,600
Speaker 3: you haven't.

786
00:49:12,920 --> 00:49:15,439
Speaker 4: Oh, Also tip of the hat to stuff mom never

787
00:49:15,480 --> 00:49:18,920
Speaker 4: told you who in their vast back catalog of episodes

788
00:49:18,960 --> 00:49:20,799
Speaker 4: have talked about a lot of these kind of gas

789
00:49:20,920 --> 00:49:22,160
Speaker 4: lighting concepts.

790
00:49:22,640 --> 00:49:26,520
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, well, okay, let's let's go with Christen's words

791
00:49:26,520 --> 00:49:30,520
Speaker 2: one more time. Imagine you're in these shoes, You're about

792
00:49:30,560 --> 00:49:32,960
Speaker 2: to leave your job. You're at your job, you just

793
00:49:33,239 --> 00:49:36,960
Speaker 2: ended a relationship that wasn't going very great. You're single,

794
00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:40,600
Speaker 2: you're twenty three years old, you are in you are

795
00:49:40,640 --> 00:49:44,680
Speaker 2: thrust into the most stressful, terrifying situation of your life.

796
00:49:45,120 --> 00:49:49,320
Speaker 2: Then another person enters that situation and is very comforting

797
00:49:49,360 --> 00:49:52,239
Speaker 2: and kind to you. Don't you think there would be

798
00:49:52,320 --> 00:49:56,080
Speaker 2: some kind of bond that gets created there, just in

799
00:49:56,160 --> 00:49:59,279
Speaker 2: some tiny one, even just imagine the smallest one, you

800
00:49:59,280 --> 00:50:02,440
Speaker 2: would feel so thing maybe for that other person, you know.

801
00:50:02,480 --> 00:50:04,920
Speaker 4: And just to parken back to what I mentioned earlier

802
00:50:04,960 --> 00:50:08,799
Speaker 4: in the episode about good cop, bad cop, you know,

803
00:50:08,920 --> 00:50:13,520
Speaker 4: in interrogation scenarios, the whole purpose of having the kinder, gentler,

804
00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:18,279
Speaker 4: you know, counterpart to the rough and tumble bullying kind

805
00:50:18,280 --> 00:50:22,880
Speaker 4: of presence is very psychologically effective because that person can

806
00:50:23,080 --> 00:50:25,440
Speaker 4: kind of manipulate and get the other person to let

807
00:50:25,440 --> 00:50:28,279
Speaker 4: their guard down, or when the mean cop leaves the room,

808
00:50:28,400 --> 00:50:31,160
Speaker 4: oh I'm sorry, he's just such as he's having a

809
00:50:31,160 --> 00:50:33,360
Speaker 4: bad day or whatever. Can I get you a coffee?

810
00:50:33,480 --> 00:50:36,320
Speaker 4: Do you need anything? But in many ways that good

811
00:50:36,360 --> 00:50:40,319
Speaker 4: cop is just as, if not more insidious than the

812
00:50:40,360 --> 00:50:40,880
Speaker 4: bad cop.

813
00:50:42,960 --> 00:50:47,359
Speaker 3: And you know, again, we can't we can't discount the

814
00:50:47,680 --> 00:50:51,880
Speaker 3: human moment right in this bank robbery example. Well, I

815
00:50:51,920 --> 00:50:55,160
Speaker 3: do believe the good cop bad cop dichotomy holds. There's

816
00:50:55,200 --> 00:51:00,800
Speaker 3: also the true possibility that this Clark guy just didn't

817
00:51:00,800 --> 00:51:04,080
Speaker 3: want to be a jerk, you know, and had again

818
00:51:04,160 --> 00:51:07,239
Speaker 3: earlier agreed with police say I will be there to

819
00:51:07,560 --> 00:51:11,200
Speaker 3: help to try to de escalate. But Stockholm syndrome as

820
00:51:11,239 --> 00:51:16,160
Speaker 3: a conspiracy, the folks who believe it is weaponized are saying,

821
00:51:16,280 --> 00:51:21,120
Speaker 3: this is just one more instance of entrenched, institutionalized assumptions

822
00:51:21,320 --> 00:51:25,440
Speaker 3: and inequalities that have been around for centuries. You know.

823
00:51:26,800 --> 00:51:30,840
Speaker 3: The idea here leads us to a pretty convincing argument.

824
00:51:31,120 --> 00:51:33,440
Speaker 3: What if the story of the bank robbery the public

825
00:51:33,480 --> 00:51:38,640
Speaker 3: initially heard was itself a heist? What if that story

826
00:51:39,040 --> 00:51:41,560
Speaker 3: was stolen by the powers that be? See what we

827
00:51:41,600 --> 00:51:45,279
Speaker 3: did there, manipulated to make the victims and survivors look

828
00:51:45,360 --> 00:51:48,319
Speaker 3: like they're crazy. To your earlier point about gaslighting, if

829
00:51:48,480 --> 00:51:51,680
Speaker 3: certain facts are counter to the narrative, they can be ignored.

830
00:51:51,719 --> 00:51:54,920
Speaker 3: The police can say, look, were we perfect? Of course not.

831
00:51:55,120 --> 00:51:58,160
Speaker 3: But let's be honest. The hostages here were not in

832
00:51:58,200 --> 00:52:01,360
Speaker 3: their right minds. They had stock syndrome, So can we

833
00:52:01,480 --> 00:52:03,080
Speaker 3: really believe what they were saying?

834
00:52:04,239 --> 00:52:07,560
Speaker 2: Dude, dude, let's play that out to the Luigi thing.

835
00:52:08,320 --> 00:52:11,880
Speaker 2: Is Luigi the twenty twenty four version of Yan or

836
00:52:11,960 --> 00:52:16,400
Speaker 2: is Yon the seventy three version of Luigi? Like that?

837
00:52:16,840 --> 00:52:20,480
Speaker 2: Are we all experiencing Stockholm syndrome because of the intense

838
00:52:20,520 --> 00:52:23,640
Speaker 2: public support of someone who's an alleged murderer?

839
00:52:24,800 --> 00:52:30,000
Speaker 3: I mean really, yeah, Again, the name Stockholm syndrome is recent,

840
00:52:30,160 --> 00:52:34,160
Speaker 3: but as we're seeing, this is just a verbal hook

841
00:52:34,400 --> 00:52:36,960
Speaker 3: to hang these experiences on, to give them a name,

842
00:52:37,120 --> 00:52:41,000
Speaker 3: to simplify them. Man dangerously run the risk of dismissing them.

843
00:52:41,000 --> 00:52:43,520
Speaker 3: I mean, it's obvious that abuse and crime are real,

844
00:52:44,040 --> 00:52:48,360
Speaker 3: and we're never going to try to diminish nor dismiss

845
00:52:48,400 --> 00:52:55,680
Speaker 3: that horrific reality. But was Stockholm syndrome weaponized? I think

846
00:52:55,760 --> 00:52:56,680
Speaker 3: the answer is yes.

847
00:52:57,000 --> 00:52:57,759
Speaker 4: I think so too.

848
00:52:59,520 --> 00:53:03,600
Speaker 2: Perhaps it feels that way, Yeah, it does. It does

849
00:53:03,640 --> 00:53:05,160
Speaker 2: feel that way well, and.

850
00:53:05,120 --> 00:53:08,799
Speaker 4: It makes sense too, because you know. I think it's

851
00:53:08,880 --> 00:53:12,799
Speaker 4: so clear from how much of a stand in the

852
00:53:12,920 --> 00:53:16,080
Speaker 4: term has become, Like I use it in therapy all

853
00:53:16,120 --> 00:53:18,000
Speaker 4: the time. I say, gosh, I feel like I had

854
00:53:18,080 --> 00:53:22,240
Speaker 4: Stockholm syndrome from X Y scenario that I was maybe

855
00:53:22,520 --> 00:53:25,360
Speaker 4: not you know, standing up for myself in you know

856
00:53:25,400 --> 00:53:27,600
Speaker 4: what I mean, like because I was letting somebody bully

857
00:53:27,680 --> 00:53:29,960
Speaker 4: me or and I was almost feeling as though I

858
00:53:30,040 --> 00:53:34,520
Speaker 4: were empathizing or trying so hard to identify with someone

859
00:53:34,560 --> 00:53:37,399
Speaker 4: who was being unkind to me. So I just think

860
00:53:37,400 --> 00:53:39,840
Speaker 4: it's such a it's become such a catch all term

861
00:53:40,239 --> 00:53:42,520
Speaker 4: that I think is much more complex than the way

862
00:53:42,560 --> 00:53:45,680
Speaker 4: people use it kind of conversationally, and I think it's

863
00:53:45,680 --> 00:53:48,560
Speaker 4: something that most people can wrap their head around, so

864
00:53:48,640 --> 00:53:51,160
Speaker 4: it's easy to weaponize it in just kind of a

865
00:53:51,200 --> 00:53:55,279
Speaker 4: discourse around something where maybe it doesn't apply. Hmmm. I

866
00:53:55,280 --> 00:53:56,200
Speaker 4: don't know, what do you guys think.

867
00:53:56,280 --> 00:53:58,319
Speaker 2: I think you're I think you're absolutely right, and this

868
00:53:58,400 --> 00:54:00,680
Speaker 2: is what I would I don't well, would you guys

869
00:54:00,719 --> 00:54:04,120
Speaker 2: mind if I read something that's at the bottom of

870
00:54:04,520 --> 00:54:09,359
Speaker 2: the Cleveland Clinics explanation of what Stockholm syndrome is, and

871
00:54:09,400 --> 00:54:12,360
Speaker 2: it just says a note from Cleveland clinic. It's a

872
00:54:12,360 --> 00:54:16,160
Speaker 2: little long, but I'm gonna read it. Quote. Stockholm syndrome

873
00:54:16,320 --> 00:54:19,320
Speaker 2: is a coping mechanism. Instead of feelings of fear, terror,

874
00:54:19,320 --> 00:54:22,120
Speaker 2: and hostility towards your abuser, you may begin to feel

875
00:54:22,120 --> 00:54:25,120
Speaker 2: a sense of humanity and compassion for them. If you

876
00:54:25,360 --> 00:54:28,600
Speaker 2: or a loved one has experienced Stockholm syndrome, know that

877
00:54:28,640 --> 00:54:31,800
Speaker 2: your positive feelings towards your abuser are not a fault.

878
00:54:32,320 --> 00:54:34,799
Speaker 2: What you're feeling is an understandable way of coping with

879
00:54:35,000 --> 00:54:38,799
Speaker 2: and surviving what happened to you. Your healthcare provider will

880
00:54:38,800 --> 00:54:40,760
Speaker 2: work with you to help you or your loved one.

881
00:54:40,600 --> 00:54:45,600
Speaker 3: Recover well, said Cleveland. And also we have to note

882
00:54:45,680 --> 00:54:49,040
Speaker 3: not every medical authority agrees with this, because there is

883
00:54:49,120 --> 00:54:52,839
Speaker 3: no to this point, there is no silver bullet universally

884
00:54:52,880 --> 00:54:56,560
Speaker 3: agreed upon definition. So there's still a lot of nuance

885
00:54:57,400 --> 00:55:02,760
Speaker 3: because you know, people again love explanations. The simpler, the quicker,

886
00:55:02,800 --> 00:55:05,680
Speaker 3: the more black and white, the better I got stuff

887
00:55:05,719 --> 00:55:09,240
Speaker 3: to do, says the human mind. So explain this, solve

888
00:55:09,320 --> 00:55:12,759
Speaker 3: this puzzle for me, and on to the next one. Unfortunately,

889
00:55:13,320 --> 00:55:17,799
Speaker 3: the curious case of Stockholm syndrome as a possible conspiracy

890
00:55:18,200 --> 00:55:20,600
Speaker 3: shows us something deeper. At play and whenever you hear

891
00:55:20,719 --> 00:55:24,360
Speaker 3: stories about this and you see those narratives competing, you

892
00:55:24,400 --> 00:55:26,799
Speaker 3: have to ask yourself, is there something that people in

893
00:55:26,880 --> 00:55:30,120
Speaker 3: power don't want you to know? Spoiler? We think the

894
00:55:30,160 --> 00:55:32,359
Speaker 3: answer is yes. We'd love to hear from you. You

895
00:55:32,400 --> 00:55:35,000
Speaker 3: can find us on email, you can find us on telephone.

896
00:55:35,000 --> 00:55:38,480
Speaker 3: You can find us online as a group or as individuals.

897
00:55:38,960 --> 00:55:42,160
Speaker 4: That's right. You can find us at the handle conspiracy

898
00:55:42,239 --> 00:55:45,479
Speaker 4: stuff where we exist on Facebook with our Facebook group

899
00:55:45,520 --> 00:55:49,319
Speaker 4: Here's where it gets crazy, on x FKA, Twitter, and

900
00:55:49,400 --> 00:55:52,200
Speaker 4: on YouTube with video content color for you to enjoy.

901
00:55:52,239 --> 00:55:53,040
Speaker 3: As individuals.

902
00:55:53,080 --> 00:55:55,520
Speaker 4: You can also find this I myself exist at the

903
00:55:55,520 --> 00:55:58,520
Speaker 4: handle how Now Noel Brown exclusively on Instagram. Ben, how

904
00:55:58,520 --> 00:55:58,880
Speaker 4: about you?

905
00:56:00,120 --> 00:56:03,760
Speaker 3: Yes, if you have questions, if you have book recommendations,

906
00:56:03,840 --> 00:56:06,959
Speaker 3: if you have terrible jokes or memes, you can send

907
00:56:06,960 --> 00:56:09,839
Speaker 3: them to me directly at Ben Bullen on Instagram, at

908
00:56:09,840 --> 00:56:15,680
Speaker 3: Benbullin HSW on Twitter, or the website Benbullin dot com. Matt,

909
00:56:15,960 --> 00:56:17,920
Speaker 3: what's a are you sipping those social meds?

910
00:56:18,840 --> 00:56:18,960
Speaker 4: Uh?

911
00:56:19,480 --> 00:56:22,279
Speaker 2: You know what? If you can find me, you win?

912
00:56:22,760 --> 00:56:23,200
Speaker 2: How about that?

913
00:56:24,400 --> 00:56:25,600
Speaker 3: Awesome? Awesome?

914
00:56:26,080 --> 00:56:28,600
Speaker 2: Hey, we also have a phone number. It's one eight

915
00:56:28,760 --> 00:56:33,359
Speaker 2: three three std WYTK. It's a voicemail system. When you

916
00:56:33,360 --> 00:56:35,759
Speaker 2: call in, give yourself a cool nickname and let us

917
00:56:35,760 --> 00:56:37,520
Speaker 2: know if we can use your name and message on

918
00:56:37,680 --> 00:56:41,640
Speaker 2: the air. Just a heads up, we're a little behind

919
00:56:41,640 --> 00:56:43,920
Speaker 2: in that department where we are catching up right now

920
00:56:44,080 --> 00:56:47,359
Speaker 2: after we record this, so do call in. We look

921
00:56:47,400 --> 00:56:49,440
Speaker 2: forward to hearing from you. If you've got more to

922
00:56:49,480 --> 00:56:51,719
Speaker 2: say than can fit in a three minute voicemail, why

923
00:56:51,719 --> 00:56:54,120
Speaker 2: not instead send us a good old fashioned email.

924
00:56:54,400 --> 00:56:58,280
Speaker 3: We are the entities that read every piece of correspondence

925
00:56:58,320 --> 00:57:01,160
Speaker 3: we receive. Be well aware, yet on afraid. Sometimes the

926
00:57:01,320 --> 00:57:04,439
Speaker 3: void writes back. As a matter of fact. Right after

927
00:57:04,480 --> 00:57:07,600
Speaker 3: this recording, we're going to respond to some librics and

928
00:57:07,640 --> 00:57:11,279
Speaker 3: we're going to follow up. Listen pretty fascinating email correspondence

929
00:57:11,320 --> 00:57:14,480
Speaker 3: we got. If you want to be part of that correspondence,

930
00:57:14,760 --> 00:57:18,720
Speaker 3: then join us out here in the dark. Also, thanks

931
00:57:18,720 --> 00:57:22,840
Speaker 3: for the kind words about Big Parma from our buddy

932
00:57:22,840 --> 00:57:28,720
Speaker 3: Big Shucks brother. That's too kind. We are conspiracy at

933
00:57:28,720 --> 00:57:49,080
Speaker 3: iHeartRadio dot com.

934
00:57:49,240 --> 00:57:51,280
Speaker 2: Stuff they Don't want you to Know is a production

935
00:57:51,400 --> 00:57:55,919
Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

936
00:57:56,040 --> 00:57:59,200
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows