Speaker 1: Hi.
Speaker 2: I'm Laura Vanderkamp. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist,
Speaker 2: and speaker.
Speaker 3: And I'm Sarah hart Hunger, a mother of three, practicing physician, writer,
Speaker 3: and course creator. We are two working parents who love
Speaker 3: our careers and our families.
Speaker 2: Welcome to Best of Both Worlds. Here we talk about
Speaker 2: how real women manage work, family, and time for fun.
Speaker 2: From figuring out childcare to mapping out long term career goals.
Speaker 2: We want you to get the most out of life.
Speaker 1: Welcome to Best of Both Worlds. This is Laura.
Speaker 2: This episode is airing in late August of twenty twenty four,
Speaker 2: which is approximately seven years since our first episode of
Speaker 2: Best of Both Worlds was launched. So happy seventh birthday, Sarah.
Speaker 2: Happy seventh birthday. Now we're like in second grade. This
Speaker 2: podcast has gone to elementary school. It's losing its teeth. Like,
Speaker 2: this is all very exciting in terms of its development. Yeah,
Speaker 2: we launched what was it you said? August twenty first,
Speaker 2: twenty seventeen. Is that the official date?
Speaker 3: Well, now I'm calling all my statistics into questions. So
Speaker 3: I used the podcast database listen notes to search for
Speaker 3: best of Both Worlds and got some possibly inaccurate data
Speaker 3: about numbers of episodes, so maybe the date is wrong
Speaker 3: as well, but I know it was August of twenty seventeen, So.
Speaker 1: Yes, it was late August of twenty seventeen.
Speaker 2: And because I remember we were getting things going while
Speaker 2: I was at the beach that year, same house, same thing,
Speaker 2: We repeat the cycle of life over and over again.
Speaker 2: But yeah, we were launching this, and so there have
Speaker 2: been we were counting. We think there are three hundred
Speaker 2: and sixty nine episodes.
Speaker 1: We could be.
Speaker 2: Slightly off on this, but that means that if you
Speaker 2: are just joining us now and you are hoping to
Speaker 2: get caught up on best of both worlds, you could
Speaker 2: listen to an episode a day for a year and
Speaker 2: then be joining us roughly at the present. I guess
Speaker 2: you would have to keep listening to ones that got
Speaker 2: released every Tuesday, but yeah, every Tuesday, seven years.
Speaker 3: I don't know whether I would recommend that.
Speaker 1: Come on, Sarah, I have a little faith in our content.
Speaker 3: I mean, you listen to Bach every day, and other
Speaker 3: people could listen to an episode of this podcast every
Speaker 3: single day. I mean, let us know if you try it.
Speaker 3: But I'm also fine if you skip around and check
Speaker 3: out maybe some of the old classics, but maybe not every
Speaker 3: single one.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I'm sure it's interesting to hear how our
Speaker 2: lives have changed, how we're talking about people.
Speaker 1: Of course, when we began this.
Speaker 2: Podcast, Genevieve was on her way but not yet with us,
Speaker 2: and Henry was just a twinkle in my eye. So yeah,
Speaker 2: we've grown our families at the same time this podcast
Speaker 2: has grown and been able to watch them grow and
Speaker 2: watch everything else change as well. So, Sarah, when we
Speaker 2: launched this, we were told to launch with more than
Speaker 2: one episode, if I remember.
Speaker 3: Correctly, yes, and if you are interested in starting a podcast.
Speaker 3: Apparently this is really good practice because that way, when
Speaker 3: you launch, I guess your initial download numbers are better
Speaker 3: than they would be if you'd only had one episode.
Speaker 3: I kind of wonder about that a little bit, because
Speaker 3: when you're a very brand new podcast, how great are
Speaker 3: the number is going to be anyway? Right, But Laura
Speaker 3: was already super famous, I was slightly famous, so we
Speaker 3: were very lucky to have some listeners that did begin
Speaker 3: right at the start, and so we did.
Speaker 1: Do you want to hear the three topics? I would
Speaker 1: love to hear the three topics? What did we decide
Speaker 1: to launch with all.
Speaker 3: Right, we launched with number one, crafting the right work
Speaker 3: life balance, not vigor all topic number two, why we
Speaker 3: decided to have more than two kids? Also a favorite
Speaker 3: number three, the second shift evenings with your kids. See,
Speaker 3: we were obsessed with the Golden Hours even.
Speaker 2: Then, long before they branded as such. Yeah, now I
Speaker 2: remember that we were also launching three episodes at the beginning,
Speaker 2: shows that you're a little bit more committed to it.
Speaker 2: I think a lot of people, if they're wondering should
Speaker 2: I listen to this, if it looks like there's more
Speaker 2: than one episode, then it looks like the person has
Speaker 2: thought it through a little bit. It's not a fly
Speaker 2: by night sort of thing. So certainly, if you are
Speaker 2: thinking of starting a podcast, launching three on your launch
Speaker 2: day and then having one a week later or whatever
Speaker 2: your cycle is going to be, the rhythm that you
Speaker 2: released them is.
Speaker 1: Probably a good idea.
Speaker 2: But yeah, so, I mean, we've told the origin story
Speaker 2: of this podcast before. But Sarah and I were reading
Speaker 2: each other's blogs. By the way, Sarah, congratulations on twenty
Speaker 2: years of blogging.
Speaker 3: Twenty years of blogging. I definitely would not have expected
Speaker 3: that when I set out to start my blog at
Speaker 3: the age of twenty four.
Speaker 1: When you were medical lost and all alone. Could I
Speaker 1: say that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, was lost and all alone dot blogspot dot com
Speaker 3: of course, because who would have their own who was
Speaker 3: their own urlis? And I thought it was just going
Speaker 3: to be like a month long project.
Speaker 1: But apparently I started reading.
Speaker 2: So Sarah made the decision to start using capital letters
Speaker 2: in twenty fourteen, so ten years after launching. But I
Speaker 2: started reading before the capital letters era. I know I
Speaker 2: was reading you twenty twelve, twenty thirteen, somewhere in there,
Speaker 2: I think is when it happened.
Speaker 3: That's a new baby era. Is the new baby era
Speaker 3: for sure as to my blog. And that's good. You
Speaker 3: missed some really wild stuff, regretable eras.
Speaker 2: Not only were there no capital letters, there were regrettable
Speaker 2: things posted on the blog.
Speaker 3: I don't know, it's been a fun adventure, but yeah,
Speaker 3: it's through lots and lots of milestones recently. Okay, so
Speaker 3: you've been reading for a very long time, and I
Speaker 3: started reading yours and I think, I mean, I think
Speaker 3: I left to comment on your blog maybe once, never
Speaker 3: expecting to hear back. And then when you left one online,
Speaker 3: I was like Oh, she's.
Speaker 1: A real person. How incredibly cool is that?
Speaker 3: And then we started commenting as one does on each
Speaker 3: other's blogs, and then we decided to meet in person
Speaker 3: and we had a really fun time. We didn't talk
Speaker 3: about the podcast at that dinner, though, right.
Speaker 1: No, we met in person once before that.
Speaker 2: I don't know if you remember, because your family lives
Speaker 2: here in Philadelphia, so I believe it was the summer
Speaker 2: of twenty fourteen, so shortly after the Capitol letters began
Speaker 2: that you came to visit your family and we went
Speaker 2: for a run together.
Speaker 3: Yes, and you, I think had just gotten some news
Speaker 3: of your own. I don't remember if you shared it
Speaker 3: during that run or not.
Speaker 2: Did I I may have shared it because I was
Speaker 2: pregnant with Alex. I was about three months pregnant with
Speaker 2: Alex at the time, because I believe it was probably July.
Speaker 2: That tends to be a time you come to visit here.
Speaker 2: But yeah, we were running, and I guess maybe I
Speaker 2: wanted to explain why I was so slow.
Speaker 1: Maybe that was why I felt I should spit the beans.
Speaker 3: You definitely hadn't announced it anywhere public, so it was
Speaker 3: like a very exciting surprise. And yeah, it might have
Speaker 3: been like, uh, go easy on me.
Speaker 2: Be careful, it's hot, she's going fast. Sarah's always been
Speaker 2: faster than me, but has been willing to run with
Speaker 2: me on occasion, which is nice.
Speaker 1: And then in the.
Speaker 2: Late spring, early summer, I want to say of twenty seventeen,
Speaker 2: Sarah was also in town and we went out for
Speaker 2: a fun dinner at Tallulah's Garden Secret supper Club, which
Speaker 2: is a sort of side restaurant in their little I
Speaker 2: don't know, it's hard to describe. So Tulua's Garland is
Speaker 2: this nice restaurant downtown and they were running a set
Speaker 2: menu called Secret Supper Club at a location right next door,
Speaker 2: and we had dinner.
Speaker 1: It was good, We enjoyed it, we enjoyed chatting.
Speaker 2: And so then later in the summer, Sarah floated an idea.
Speaker 3: Sometimes I that sometimes I do that, wondering if maybe
Speaker 3: the universe will like throw something back at me.
Speaker 1: And it did. It did, Laura wrote.
Speaker 3: Me an email, I'm not going to read the whole thing,
Speaker 3: but I'm going to quote a little piece of it.
Speaker 3: We said chat, I have been thinking of doing podcasts
Speaker 3: or I suppose more Facebook alive too. There may be synergies,
Speaker 3: and then she wrote, you're looking to start a new
Speaker 3: project going into kid number three smiling face. So yes,
Speaker 3: I was looking to start a new project going into
Speaker 3: kid number three.
Speaker 1: I guess I figured, hey, i'd have maybe a little
Speaker 1: extra time on maternity leave. Perhaps or I just felt
Speaker 1: the pull.
Speaker 3: And I'm so glad I did, because I said, yes,
Speaker 3: I actually had written you something like, oh, I have
Speaker 3: a couple other inquiries, but you're the best.
Speaker 1: And we talked on the phone and made it happened. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we did, We did.
Speaker 2: And I remember I was actually on an editing retreat
Speaker 2: for Off the Clock. I had a manuscript of the
Speaker 2: book that became Off the Clock, and I was needing
Speaker 2: to as I often do toward the end of a manuscript,
Speaker 2: I really want to sit down and edit it without
Speaker 2: having to stop, without having to like go pick anyone up,
Speaker 2: without having to make or even eat dinner, or put
Speaker 2: anyone to bed. I want to just go through it.
Speaker 2: And so I had gone off to Bear Creek Mountain,
Speaker 2: which is a ski resort, but it was the summer, so.
Speaker 1: Stay there for a couple of days.
Speaker 2: And it was while I was there that I saw
Speaker 2: this posted on Sarah's blog, and so yeah, a lot
Speaker 2: of things came out of that few days away.
Speaker 1: It's good to be thinking a little bit more expansively.
Speaker 2: I actually don't think that is a coincidence, because I
Speaker 2: don't know would I have reached out and suggested it
Speaker 2: if I was like skimming through stuff because I was
Speaker 2: back at life and not doing anything else.
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 2: It's an interesting question. I'm happy we did well. The
Speaker 2: stars aligned and it worked as stars aligned. All right, Well,
Speaker 2: let's take a quick ad break and we will be
Speaker 2: back talking a little bit more about our seven year journey.
Speaker 1: Well we are back talking all things, best of both worlds.
Speaker 2: I guess this is a little navel gazing of an episode,
Speaker 2: but you know, forgive us, we've been around seven years,
Speaker 2: which is very old and podcasting years. I don't know,
Speaker 2: like dog years. I guess like forty nine or whatever
Speaker 2: the equivalent is. I mean, initially this was just a
Speaker 2: fun project really, I mean for both of us. But Sarah,
Speaker 2: you'd notice that there was a bit of a hole
Speaker 2: in the market in terms of podcasts that we're out there.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I've been a very long time podcast listener. I
Speaker 3: think it has a lot to do with running, because
Speaker 3: I discovered that music kind of got old. So like
Speaker 3: I was listening to this American life on my like
Speaker 3: iPod back in like I don't know, the mid Auts
Speaker 3: and stuff like that, and people are like, what are
Speaker 3: you doing?
Speaker 1: And I'm like, this is so cool.
Speaker 3: And podcasts started to get a little bit more popular,
Speaker 3: and I started to notice that there were more sort
Speaker 3: of aimed at women, but they were they all seem
Speaker 3: to be stay at home moms, and they all kinda
Speaker 3: I don't know. They talked about things that were interesting
Speaker 3: to me. But at the same time, I was like, ah,
Speaker 3: but my lifestyle just doesn't look like this. I'm like,
Speaker 3: where are all the working moms And I'm like, oh, right,
Speaker 3: they're working.
Speaker 1: They don't have time to do a podcast.
Speaker 3: Yes, And so I was like, you know, I think
Speaker 3: I might have just enough time. I think I was
Speaker 3: working point eight or point nine or something, I think
Speaker 3: point eight at the time, and I was like, I
Speaker 3: could probably in that little bit of time be that
Speaker 3: working person and provide that needed perspective. And I think
Speaker 3: when Laura reached out, I was like, well, this is
Speaker 3: perfect because I have a much more structured job. She
Speaker 3: has a much more like entrepreneurial, like flexible job, but
Speaker 3: both of us have big jobs and so not only
Speaker 3: will we cover work and parenthood, but like different kinds
Speaker 3: of work.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, it's true, there's definitely.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's obviously the issue with people only have
Speaker 2: so much time, and I know I've been saddened over
Speaker 2: the years many of the working mom blogs that I
Speaker 2: have read have kind of disappeared because people get busy,
Speaker 2: and if you have a couple of kids and a
Speaker 2: big job, it's always the thing that can go.
Speaker 1: And so I mean, among the reasons, I'm.
Speaker 2: Impressed that Sarah has been able to do this for
Speaker 2: twenty years, but as we all know, she's very good
Speaker 2: at planning.
Speaker 3: No, and I also obviously really love it, like it's
Speaker 3: it's something I'm drawn to do, rather than something I'm
Speaker 3: like putting on my list to get to grind out
Speaker 3: or something like that, or also wouldn't be doing it.
Speaker 3: But yeah, I mean, I'm still drawn to podcasts like
Speaker 3: with from this perspective, and I still don't feel like
Speaker 3: there are definitely more than there were, but there still
Speaker 3: aren't a ton because the truth is, like once a
Speaker 3: podcast is getting big and elaborate. The hosts need to
Speaker 3: have a lot of time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, but you know, Sarah's still seeing patients, so
Speaker 2: we are legit here as she has a normal in
Speaker 2: the office required to be their job. So we're always
Speaker 2: trying to stay true to at least some of that perspective,
Speaker 2: even as she has launched some more entrepreneurial unsures herself
Speaker 2: as well. So another fun fact courtesy of my Yahoo inbox.
Speaker 2: It told me the other day as I was hunting
Speaker 2: for an email from Sarah that you and Sarah hart
Speaker 2: Unger appeared to gather on four thousand, nine hundred and
Speaker 2: sixty seven messages between February twenty twenty and July twenty
Speaker 2: twenty fours. That's not even all of it by any
Speaker 2: means whatsoever. There were fourteen messages from last week and
Speaker 2: on average eleven point six messages per week for last
Speaker 2: Year's a lot.
Speaker 1: I know.
Speaker 3: When people are like, how much time does a podcast take,
Speaker 3: it's like, well, not that much, but also a lot like.
Speaker 2: Because well it's yeah, the focus time may not be
Speaker 2: that much, but there's always the constant communication back and forth.
Speaker 2: I mean, we text each other too, But again, it's
Speaker 2: hard to separate out. What is that, like the split
Speaker 2: between business related stuff and like you want to show
Speaker 2: the new outfit we just got, so yeah, I.
Speaker 3: Mean it's a mix yep. The text there, oh to
Speaker 3: redo that ad or like my kid gotta new whatever.
Speaker 3: But no, a lot and a lot of communication, that's funny.
Speaker 3: I actually, yeah, that sounds about right. Five thousand in
Speaker 3: the last four years, I could.
Speaker 2: See sending fourteen messages away. That's like two emails a day.
Speaker 2: That's not that out of line. Maybe are they all
Speaker 2: for me? I don't know, no, if.
Speaker 1: They're not.
Speaker 2: So once you been your biggest surprise with doing this
Speaker 2: for lo these many years, Sarah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, how many.
Speaker 3: Like I ERL people I have met and how many
Speaker 3: like true real life connections have happened that feel like
Speaker 3: a result of this podcast, And like I saw that
Speaker 3: in person when we had Best Line Plans Live, which
Speaker 3: was not officially a best of Both Worlds event, but many, many,
Speaker 3: many of the participants came to know me through Best
Speaker 3: of Both Worlds and many were listeners, and then like
Speaker 3: they started branching off and making their own friendships to
Speaker 3: the point where like now some of them traveled together
Speaker 3: and I'm.
Speaker 1: Like oh my god.
Speaker 3: It all started with best of both worlds, Like how
Speaker 3: amazing is that? I mean some of it started with
Speaker 3: Laura's books and stuff like that, but still, I think
Speaker 3: just the fact that like this online thing became a
Speaker 3: physical reality and his like true friendships have come from
Speaker 3: it has been super super fun and a surprise.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean it's been great just people we've met
Speaker 2: through this, and we launched our Patreon community a few
Speaker 2: years ago, which has been a lot of fun to have.
Speaker 2: I mean it's not since it's a paid community. People
Speaker 2: tend to be on their best, most helpful behavior, and
Speaker 2: it's their real names and everything, and I think that's
Speaker 2: something that's often missing in a lot of social media.
Speaker 2: I know, people get at it through doing like closed
Speaker 2: Facebook groups for instance, that you need to apply to join,
Speaker 2: and that's an option as well for people to do
Speaker 2: if they're looking to create something like this in their life.
Speaker 2: But we've really had great discussions and a lot of
Speaker 2: people sort of meeting up on their own or giving
Speaker 2: each other advice or connections or anything like that. So
Speaker 2: I've really appreciated seeing how that has happened, being able
Speaker 2: to meet people in person when it's possible has also
Speaker 2: been wonderful and Sarah has you know, I mean, you
Speaker 2: listened to a ton of podcasts before doing this, but
Speaker 2: you hadn't really done much interviewing people for producing content
Speaker 2: before doing a podcast.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I also put on my surprise list that I was
Speaker 3: surprised how much I grew to enjoy interviewing other people,
Speaker 3: like not just our conversational episodes, which felt pretty natural
Speaker 3: from the beginning, but also interviewing people where I would
Speaker 3: read the book and do a little bit of research
Speaker 3: and then put together my questions and actually got like
Speaker 3: a random not random, but like a compliment from someone
Speaker 3: I just interviewed, where afterwards she was like, Wow, you
Speaker 3: really know what you're doing. This felt so much more
Speaker 3: like a conversation than a list of questions. And I
Speaker 3: was like, well, I'm still feel like I'm pretending at
Speaker 3: this because I don't have any like official She's like, no,
Speaker 3: get over it, Like you're fine, and that's just super cool.
Speaker 3: Like I didn't know that there'd be like growth personal
Speaker 3: growth for me out of this venture, but I feel
Speaker 3: like there has been.
Speaker 2: We all learn new skills, which is one I mean
Speaker 2: speaking into a microphone. I mean you are speaking, but
Speaker 2: it's like there's things associated with it too. I think
Speaker 2: we also had a breakthrough when we started using recording
Speaker 2: software where we can see each other. So there was
Speaker 2: a point a few years in where we switched software
Speaker 2: providers for that. We've always had stuff where we can
Speaker 2: record a local track and then mix it together because
Speaker 2: that tends to make the sound quality better. But now
Speaker 2: we're using one where we can see each other, and
Speaker 2: it just facilitates the conversation because I know I would
Speaker 2: like start talking to you know, step On Sarah's trying
Speaker 2: to say something, because we wouldn't be sure if the
Speaker 2: other person was coming in. So I think that's been
Speaker 2: really helpful too, given that we aren't in the same place.
Speaker 3: Definitely, I think it makes it more fun too, Like
Speaker 3: there's something about stereot a blank screen that's a little weird.
Speaker 3: And I had an interview a while back where they're like, no,
Speaker 3: we don't do video, and it really did feel odd.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I'm really glad we can see each other. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I mean even places that don't record the video. I mean,
Speaker 2: because we're not recording the video, where's just that we
Speaker 2: want to Yeah, I definitely prefer now when I can
Speaker 2: see the person who is interviewing me or that I'm
Speaker 2: interviewing them as well. All right, Sarah, so let's say
Speaker 2: some favorite episodes. What have been some of your favorite
Speaker 2: episodes over the past three hundred and sixty nine.
Speaker 3: Well, the fun Facts episode from March twenty twenty four
Speaker 3: was definitely a highlight. I just had so much fun
Speaker 3: doing it. And I'll say, any like Q and a
Speaker 3: mail Bag where we're in the same room is just
Speaker 3: extra fun, just I don't know, like there's something nice
Speaker 3: to be recording together and actually being able to be
Speaker 3: in the same room, read each other's body language, et cetera.
Speaker 3: So I'll say, and I like Q and A's anyway,
Speaker 3: it's fun to answer questions what about you?
Speaker 2: Yeah, No, The March twenty twenty four one was, I mean,
Speaker 2: I tend to listen to most of these episodes afterwards,
Speaker 2: sort of just general quality control. I want to make
Speaker 2: sure that I'm listening to whatever our listeners are listening
Speaker 2: to as well. But I listened to that one several
Speaker 2: times because it was just so funny between the Cornflight
Speaker 2: Girl theme. So we had come up with a list
Speaker 2: of fun Fact getting to know You questions sitting at
Speaker 2: the bar the night before and then went and recorded
Speaker 2: in a hotel room in Naples, and yep, it was
Speaker 2: a banner episode. So if you have not listened to
Speaker 2: that one, please go back and do that.
Speaker 1: We'll have to try to link that one so they
Speaker 1: can find it. Sarah. Of course, I was saying, you
Speaker 1: also love our goals episodes.
Speaker 3: I do. I love doing them, I love having done them.
Speaker 3: I love being able to go back and listen to
Speaker 3: them after the fact and be like, what did I say?
Speaker 1: I do that? But yeah, those are so.
Speaker 3: Much fun to do, and I enjoy hearing them afterwards
Speaker 3: as well.
Speaker 2: So some favorite guest episodes, Sarah had a particular request
Speaker 2: early on for a guest that we were able to land.
Speaker 1: You want to talk about that one?
Speaker 3: Yes, I think I've never celebrated so much is when
Speaker 3: you were like, we got Manouche Summarodi and I was like, yes,
Speaker 3: because she it had like an NPR series that I
Speaker 3: was obsessed with, and I just love her voice, and
Speaker 3: I love the way she does journalism, and I just
Speaker 3: think she's awesome. And I think she'd come up with
Speaker 3: a book that I enjoyed around that time, and so
Speaker 3: having her was thrilling. And then I'm gonna cheat and
Speaker 3: say I loved having my relatives on the podcast. So
Speaker 3: my sister in law was episode thirty one, Josh was
Speaker 3: episode eighty five, and I couldn't find the number, but
Speaker 3: my sister was on in September of twenty twenty.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was awesome when she was talking about your
Speaker 2: niece and her.
Speaker 1: Journey with that, which was so much fun to hear.
Speaker 2: And I mean I got to see though, like Sarah
Speaker 2: and her sister next to each other, which is just
Speaker 2: a hilarious They're obviously not exactly like each other, but
Speaker 2: they are also somewhat there's a resemblance, so let's put
Speaker 2: it that way.
Speaker 1: And there's a lot of mannerisms in common.
Speaker 2: So yeah, it was like and of course they've known
Speaker 2: each other for forty years and so it's like they're
Speaker 2: just immediately feeding off each other in a certain way,
Speaker 2: which was just hilarious. Fun fact, my husband has refused
Speaker 2: to be a guest.
Speaker 3: We might still win him over, but I'm not holding
Speaker 3: my breath.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know if we're still doing this when
Speaker 2: he retires. Maybe it's possible, possible. Well, some of my
Speaker 2: favorite guest episodes, I mean, are the ones that people
Speaker 2: that we've had on more than once. I guess there's
Speaker 2: an obvious relation between that of the people we've had
Speaker 2: on more than once, So we ran through that. Some
Speaker 2: of the people who we've had on more than once.
Speaker 2: Emily Auster has been on multiple times. kJ del Antonia
Speaker 2: she has been on multiple times. Jillian Goddard also been
Speaker 2: on multiple times for those who read a Hot Flash,
Speaker 2: which is also part of the Emily ost Parent Data Empire.
Speaker 2: And Gretchen Rubin has also been on more than once.
Speaker 2: So I was thinking about it. Those four people in us, Sarah,
Speaker 2: that would be quite a fun dinner party. I mean,
Speaker 2: can we do that?
Speaker 3: I feel like we're all busy, but I would people
Speaker 3: are pretty busy, but to fly out to somewhere to
Speaker 3: go to that.
Speaker 1: That would be I would be totally at that party.
Speaker 1: That would be a highlight for sure.
Speaker 2: So let's take one more quick ad break and then
Speaker 2: we'll come back with a little bit more on highlights
Speaker 2: and such of the past three hundred and sixty nine episodes. Well,
Speaker 2: we are back talking all things best of both Worlds
Speaker 2: and our journey over the last seven years. So one
Speaker 2: of our earliest episodes is what we call the hurricane episode. So,
Speaker 2: Sarah Lis, this is one of the weirdest episodes we
Speaker 2: have ever put out. Would you want to describe the
Speaker 2: hurricane episode, Sarah.
Speaker 3: Well, we just started the podcast because we must have,
Speaker 3: because that hurricane was like a month after this podcast inception,
Speaker 3: and we did not know at that point the art
Speaker 3: of like having extra episodes in the hopper. And there
Speaker 3: was a big, big hurricane that was going to hit
Speaker 3: South Florida. Well it did hit South Florida. It was
Speaker 3: Hurricane Irma. I was about thirty one thirty two weeks
Speaker 3: pregnant at the time, and we had two little kids,
Speaker 3: and we were like, okay, not staying in Miami Beach,
Speaker 3: which was fully evacuated, and so we started driving and
Speaker 3: driving and driving and driving, and I was like, I
Speaker 3: don't think I'm gonna be able to record, you know,
Speaker 3: it's not gonna happen. So laur I was like, well,
Speaker 3: we could just like get on the mic and do something.
Speaker 3: So from my sister's carpet in North Carolina, where we
Speaker 3: had eventually landed, we did an episode. I don't think
Speaker 3: it was long. I don't think I was in the
Speaker 3: mental state to do anything very much of substance, but
Speaker 3: I would actually be interested in listening to that.
Speaker 1: Probably pretty historical, and I didn't.
Speaker 3: Put this in the list, but I'm sure there's some
Speaker 3: weird episodes around when COVID was hitting, like I'm not
Speaker 3: sure how to handle no one knew, like we didn't know, well,
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's hilarious because we had I mean, there's
Speaker 2: always a trade off between recording ahead of time so
Speaker 2: you have things ready, but then the news can come
Speaker 2: back to bite you in ways that you can't run.
Speaker 2: The episodes we've had and this has happened a few
Speaker 2: times with different things, but COVID was an obvious one
Speaker 2: where this happened because I think like our episode that
Speaker 2: was for maybe the Tuesday after March thirteenth, when everything
Speaker 2: truly shut down, so like that's the fourteenth, the seventeenth,
Speaker 2: Like let's say March seventeenth was about getting out the
Speaker 2: door in the morning, right, like getting your kids out
Speaker 2: the door in the morning, which is, of course right
Speaker 2: when nobody was getting their kids out the door in
Speaker 2: the morning and would not be doing so for at
Speaker 2: least the next two or three months. As it turned out,
Speaker 2: so we had to shelf that one and.
Speaker 1: Do some other stuff. Yeah, we didn't air it. I
Speaker 1: don't know what we did air. I don't really want
Speaker 1: to know. Well, at the time, we thought it was
Speaker 1: so temporary.
Speaker 2: I mean, I thought I believed our governor when he
Speaker 2: said we're canceling school for two weeks, and then next
Speaker 2: thing you know, we're out for months and months.
Speaker 1: So so it.
Speaker 2: Goes many things that we learned during that. But Sarah,
Speaker 2: I'm very curious you listed under weirdest episodes headline here
Speaker 2: on your note Laura interviews Sarah and Sarah interviews Laura.
Speaker 1: So what were so weird about? No, I didn't go
Speaker 1: back and re listen.
Speaker 3: I just thought the concept was kind of weird, Like,
Speaker 3: I mean, they hear so much about us all the
Speaker 3: time that like, what could we have possibly been like
Speaker 3: delving interesting?
Speaker 1: Again, Sarah, we need an episode here. I know how
Speaker 1: we can get two episodes.
Speaker 3: It might have been a little bit like that. So sorry,
Speaker 3: well we won't repeat that series.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I gotta say.
Speaker 2: I mean, the more you come up with ideas, the
Speaker 2: more you come up with ideas, And I feel like,
Speaker 2: even though we've been doing this for three hundred and
Speaker 2: sixty nine ideas. It's easier to get ideas now than
Speaker 2: it was when we had only done fifteen or twenty
Speaker 2: of them. There's something about you just get in the
Speaker 2: mindset of what could make an episode and go.
Speaker 3: With it, and you also figure out what makes a
Speaker 3: really good recurring episode and what might not or like
Speaker 3: we did a series, we did like a screen Time
Speaker 3: series once. But you're right, well, this us to our
Speaker 3: next point, which is our retreats, and they are one
Speaker 3: of my favorite parts of doing this, which is that
Speaker 3: a couple times a year, Loaur and I like will
Speaker 3: go somewhere and we'll record a bunch of episodes and
Speaker 3: usually do a lot of planning type of stuff. And
Speaker 3: I always feel like that is when we like get
Speaker 3: a whole slew of ideas, like we're able to just
Speaker 3: capture them, write them all down, and then we can
Speaker 3: live off of that for the next six months.
Speaker 1: Yeah, or at least three months or so.
Speaker 2: I mean, we've tried to do this three times a year, roughly,
Speaker 2: I think two or three times a year, and which
Speaker 2: on some level, as this podcast has evolved and is
Speaker 2: a business now, I mean it's not that it's supporting
Speaker 2: either of us or our families, but it is a business.
Speaker 2: The fact that we are running a business together and
Speaker 2: only see each other in person a couple times a
Speaker 2: year is kind of crazy if you think about it, Like,
Speaker 2: there's not that many.
Speaker 1: Where people do that.
Speaker 2: So I mean we probably should get together more. And
Speaker 2: that's I recognize on me because I'm the one who
Speaker 2: has the job where you can do that and get
Speaker 2: on the plane more easily. So I do promise Sarah,
Speaker 2: I will get myself down to Florida.
Speaker 3: Well, I feel like with our retreats, but also like
Speaker 3: as long as I try to capitalize on some Laura
Speaker 3: time when I see my family, Yes, we're able to
Speaker 3: add some bonus stuff because a lot of times I'm
Speaker 3: there around like Christmas. Well this year, I'm going to
Speaker 3: be there for Thanksgiving. I saw you fourth of July,
Speaker 3: so that actually might fill in the gaps a little bit.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's true. That was going to be now both
Speaker 1: in the same place. It's great.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, no, so it was well placed. That turned
Speaker 2: out that I live fifteen minutes from Sarah's entire extended family,
Speaker 2: but not really planned when we started this, but yeah, yeah, no,
Speaker 2: we love that.
Speaker 1: We love our retreats. Highlights always when we find.
Speaker 2: Out about a guest that we'd love to have on
Speaker 2: and then the person agrees to come on. Certainly, we
Speaker 2: loved Best Laid Plans Live when I was able to
Speaker 2: hang out with a lot of people were there for
Speaker 2: Sarah's podcast, but also tended to listen to best of
Speaker 2: both worlds. And we also love getting emails from listeners.
Speaker 2: I mean, certainly if somebody's found a useful tip in
Speaker 2: the podcast and has been able to use that in
Speaker 2: their life, that's always like we feel like we've gotten
Speaker 2: a little gold star, like.
Speaker 1: Woo was all about that. They're really helpful because I'm
Speaker 1: not gonna lie.
Speaker 3: Sometimes we'll get a negative email that's a little random,
Speaker 3: like I don't know, like you don't have to say them. Well,
Speaker 3: there's really comment but don no, no, this is fine.
Speaker 3: There's one I think I shared this, but like there's
Speaker 3: a comment on our ratings thing that says like you
Speaker 3: let your kids play in a trampoline park, and I'm like,
Speaker 3: you knows.
Speaker 1: In fact, I might get.
Speaker 3: An email like that and feel like, oh my god,
Speaker 3: this person hates me. Everyone hates me, So it's really
Speaker 3: nice sometimes to get those emails that are, like, this
Speaker 3: podcast is really fun and like, you know, maybe I
Speaker 3: didn't find immense value in every word that was spoken,
Speaker 3: but maybe I got something good out of it, or
Speaker 3: it just made me smile today, and like hearing that
Speaker 3: is so wonderful. So thank you to anyone who has
Speaker 3: ever sent a positive email. Feel free to send more.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you can tell us you were listening to this
Speaker 2: podcast in the car on the way to the trampoline park,
Speaker 2: and we will be right there with you, celebrating the
Speaker 2: existence of said parks. For Rainy Stormy Snowy said days.
Speaker 2: All right, best of both worlds.
Speaker 1: Future.
Speaker 2: People sometimes ask us about this, I don't have any
Speaker 2: concrete plans, maybe, Sarah us.
Speaker 3: I don't know, no concrete plans. It's fun. We still
Speaker 3: have lots of ideas. We know our kids are getting older,
Speaker 3: but I mean lots of people have older kids too,
Speaker 3: so I'm not like super feeling panicky about that. I
Speaker 3: feel like there's still a lot of opportunity to search
Speaker 3: for the best of both worlds when you have school
Speaker 3: age kids, tweens, teens, and I don't think I've totally
Speaker 3: forgotten those baby and toather years yet so hopefully we
Speaker 3: can still share valuable perspectives there as well.
Speaker 2: And that's something we might try to round out with
Speaker 2: guests and things like that to people focused a little
Speaker 2: bit more on the early years as Sarah and I
Speaker 2: age out of that. So if you are just coming
Speaker 2: to us, as often happened somebody's bit our podcast has
Speaker 2: been recommended to someone as they are coming back from
Speaker 2: maternity leave, for instance, don't worry. We will have plenty
Speaker 2: of young kid related podcasting content for the foreseeable future
Speaker 2: because we know that that is relevant and useful to
Speaker 2: a lot of our listeners. And of course, as people
Speaker 2: come along with us in the journey and their kids
Speaker 2: are now seven years older than when they started it,
Speaker 2: we will have content for older kids as well.
Speaker 3: All right, well, we have one more segment of today's episode, well,
Speaker 3: in addition to our Q and a segment Laura, go ahead,
Speaker 3: go ahead, just go yeah.
Speaker 2: I first called this my rant, but I'm not going
Speaker 2: to rant.
Speaker 1: I'm not going to rant. You know.
Speaker 2: It's more the why behind this podcast, and Sarah mentioned
Speaker 2: some of it of like they're not being anything out
Speaker 2: there for people who were working moms, but particularly those
Speaker 2: in more traditional all jobs who were still needing to
Speaker 2: commute to an office and do things at certain times
Speaker 2: that they didn't always have complete control over. And we're
Speaker 2: trying to build the best of both worlds with a
Speaker 2: big career and a big family.
Speaker 1: Even with that in mind, and so of course we
Speaker 1: wanted to do that.
Speaker 2: But as our podcast has evolved and I've thought about
Speaker 2: it a lot, I mean a big part of the why,
Speaker 2: we just really have a different perspective than you'd get
Speaker 2: from a lot of different places.
Speaker 1: I Mean, we.
Speaker 2: Were both really really into kids, Like we love kids,
Speaker 2: we love raising them. We're raising a ton of them.
Speaker 2: I mean, we love family life. We love being very
Speaker 2: intentional about it, creating a happy home, thinking about like, ooh,
Speaker 2: how can we have a summer where you know, the
Speaker 2: kids are having adventures and we're having adventures with them
Speaker 2: and doing all these cool things like how can we
Speaker 2: make great family travel, you know? Or are the kids
Speaker 2: doing the right mix of activities, like how can we
Speaker 2: have a great family meeting so everything's organized. We'd spent
Speaker 2: a ton of time I'm thinking about this, and we
Speaker 2: also spend a ton of time thinking about our jobs,
Speaker 2: Like we are really into building our careers and you know,
Speaker 2: I mean, obviously I'm more on the entrepreneurial side, but
Speaker 2: Sarah and many of our listeners have more traditional jobs,
Speaker 2: and there is plenty of space for both. There's plenty
Speaker 2: of space to be in love with your career and
Speaker 2: all that you can do for the universe with your
Speaker 2: talents that you've been given, and all the wonderful things
Speaker 2: you can do with your family. That there is zero
Speaker 2: contradiction between these two things. And I think this puts
Speaker 2: us at odds with a lot of other messaging and
Speaker 2: messaging from all over the map. I mean, this is
Speaker 2: not political, but it comes from every side that in
Speaker 2: every perspective you could think of. I mean there's definitely
Speaker 2: some anti family, anti kids stuff out there. I mean
Speaker 2: jobs that are unnecessarily inflexible, or think of all the
Speaker 2: jobs you can work from home now that you couldn't
Speaker 2: before COVID, Like what you have to fight to work
Speaker 2: from home on Friday. There was zero reason for that
Speaker 2: other than the people.
Speaker 1: Weren't doing it.
Speaker 2: We're like, oh, I need to see my people here
Speaker 2: to know they're working. Like it's just ridiculous. I mean
Speaker 2: this was anti family in a way. It just didn't
Speaker 2: have to be. We both found, of course, that many
Speaker 2: things are not set up for bigger families either, Like
Speaker 2: a lot of the world assumes that you only have two,
Speaker 2: and you know that's how it's going to be.
Speaker 1: So we've got that pushing that way.
Speaker 2: But unfortunately, a lot of the people who sort of
Speaker 2: build themselves as pro family or pro bigger family are
Speaker 2: kind of spouting a lot of old fashioned patriarchal nonsense
Speaker 2: about how a good mother prioritizes motherhood over career, as
Speaker 2: if the two cannot be done at the same time,
Speaker 2: as if we cannot walk and choose gum chew gum.
Speaker 2: There's like message, what's that, Yeah, we can choose love
Speaker 2: that My message is that like childcare is bad and
Speaker 2: so somehow you are failing if you use childcare, which
Speaker 2: the result, given that the vast majority of mothers do
Speaker 2: work for pay and many of them do not have
Speaker 2: partners who are home with their kids full time, I
Speaker 2: mean that childcare is part of it. And then people
Speaker 2: feel bad about something that's a reality and for no reason.
Speaker 2: So then people are doing silly things like trying to
Speaker 2: wake up to work at four am so that they
Speaker 2: can minimize their use of childcare because childcare.
Speaker 1: Is bad and it's not.
Speaker 2: It's not I mean, you know, or the softer versions
Speaker 2: of like oh everyone knows you can't do this or
Speaker 2: or whatever.
Speaker 3: I just I feel like it's the softer stuff that
Speaker 3: sometimes stings more because it sort of sounds reasonable, but
Speaker 3: then there's like a layer under it that's like, well,
Speaker 3: you're just saying like that what I'm doing is like
Speaker 3: the lesser option or something like that, or yes, all
Speaker 3: these like you can't have this and this. It's like, well,
Speaker 3: maybe I can have my version of this in this
Speaker 3: and I'm enjoying it, and now you're making me feel
Speaker 3: weird about it, Like yeah, yeah, I think I love
Speaker 3: that you called this out, and I love that we
Speaker 3: have this podcast to kind of show that a lot
Speaker 3: of it isn't true.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it is not true.
Speaker 2: You can have an absolutely wonderful, happy home life with
Speaker 2: a big family if that's what you want, and have
Speaker 2: a big career and be totally kicking butt in that
Speaker 2: and achieving your ambitions. And if people tell you that's
Speaker 2: not possible, that's because maybe they don't think it's possible
Speaker 2: for them. That that has absolutely nothing to do with you.
Speaker 2: So this podcast is here cheering you on and has
Speaker 2: been doing so for seven years, and we hope to
Speaker 2: continue to do so for at least the next little bit,
Speaker 2: and we hope you will.
Speaker 1: Stay with us.
Speaker 2: We're glad you are long for the journey, and thank you,
Speaker 2: Thank you for being thank you journey, Thank you for that.
Speaker 2: All right, So we always do a question, so we
Speaker 2: will get to that. I will summarize this one. This
Speaker 2: person has a couple different jobs she's choosing out. She's
Speaker 2: been freelancing for many years, but has reached the point
Speaker 2: in her life where she would really like healthcare benefits,
Speaker 2: so she is looking to go back into the more
Speaker 2: traditional workforce. Is one should I choose a job primarily
Speaker 2: based on flexibility.
Speaker 1: She's looking between two different jobs.
Speaker 2: The first job she loves the position, loves the department,
Speaker 2: loves the benefits, thinks it is a little bit more
Speaker 2: of a as she puts it, butts in the seat position.
Speaker 2: They say the hours are eight to four thirty. It
Speaker 2: could be shifted slightly so, for instance nine to five thirty,
Speaker 2: but not much beyond that. They do offer generous vacation,
Speaker 2: personal days six days, and after ninety days she can
Speaker 2: work remote one day a week, so these people are
Speaker 2: perhaps stuck in twenty nineteen, but whatever, and then a
Speaker 2: second job is way way more flexible, but she is
Speaker 2: a little bit less excited about it. It doesn't seem
Speaker 2: to be quite as good a match, but she is
Speaker 2: pretty sure she will be able to set whatever hours
Speaker 2: she wants work from home whenever she wants. So she says,
Speaker 2: I think I would prefer the first job, but I
Speaker 2: also think it would annoy me to have to ask
Speaker 2: for a half personal day for say a thirty minute
Speaker 2: vacation Bible school show for a kid, or a kid
Speaker 2: event at four pm, when in theory I could have
Speaker 2: just worked from home that day and shifted my hours somewhat. So,
Speaker 2: she says, should I choose a job primarily based on flexibility? Sarah,
Speaker 2: what do you think?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 3: Reading this, I mean, first of all you have to
Speaker 3: wonder about, like, is what is being offered on paper
Speaker 3: like actually reality? Because maybe the reality is that you
Speaker 3: could adjust your You know, they don't want to say
Speaker 3: you can adjust your hours, but if you really just
Speaker 3: needed to leave thirty minutes early, you could just like
Speaker 3: work through lunch, especially again, once they've gotten to know
Speaker 3: you as an employee, and what your contributions are and
Speaker 3: how reliable you are, and that you get your stuff done.
Speaker 3: I just wonder if maybe things are not as strict
Speaker 3: as it sounds. Plus the amount of personal vacation time
Speaker 3: is true, like, Okay, maybe it would be annoying to
Speaker 3: ask for that flexibility for that, but maybe you could
Speaker 3: see it as like, well, I have plenty of personal days.
Speaker 3: Let me take half a day, get a massage, and
Speaker 3: then go to the vacation Bible show, Like it might
Speaker 3: not be like the worst thing ever. So if I
Speaker 3: think that one excites you more, I think I would
Speaker 3: go for it, and then you can always try for
Speaker 3: If it doesn't work out, then like you could.
Speaker 1: Go for the other.
Speaker 3: But I feel like, but the other you're always going
Speaker 3: to regret, Like I should have gone with that first one.
Speaker 3: The culture fit me so well and I was so
Speaker 3: excited about it, and I didn't know if it would work,
Speaker 3: but like, maybe it would work. It doesn't sound totally crazy.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I tend to say you can't like
Speaker 2: live on balance alone, like you have to like the
Speaker 2: substance of your job. And so if you are legitimately
Speaker 2: more excited about job number one than job number two,
Speaker 2: then it is on you to then negotiate to get
Speaker 2: the equivalent conditions to job number two. At job number one.
Speaker 2: I mean, things are very, very rarely totally set in stone.
Speaker 2: And if job number one lets people work remotely one
Speaker 2: day a week after ninety days, then they are not
Speaker 2: zero flexibility, which means it's all just on a scale
Speaker 2: of what you are going to be able to negotiate.
Speaker 2: So when you are offered officially job number one, be like,
Speaker 2: I am so excited about this job.
Speaker 1: I really want to do it.
Speaker 2: I need to have a conversation with you because I
Speaker 2: have an offer from this other place that lets you
Speaker 2: work from home wherever and set your hours. And I
Speaker 2: understand maybe the culture is a little bit differently here,
Speaker 2: but I want to know that I'm going to be
Speaker 2: able to do and then list whatever your conditions are x,
Speaker 2: Y or Z, and I'm pretty sure if that manager
Speaker 2: really wants you, they'll be like, yeah, well we don't
Speaker 2: officially do that, but you know you're working with me.
Speaker 2: I'm not going to report you for not being here,
Speaker 2: and you'll be able to make it work. I mean,
Speaker 2: if you're going back into the normal working world, I
Speaker 2: think you want to make it worth it for you,
Speaker 2: like you want a job that you are actually excited about.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and if you get a really really rigid or
Speaker 3: off response that I guess that tells you something about
Speaker 3: the company and maybe you would rethink things.
Speaker 1: Then go with job number two because you have that.
Speaker 2: So then you've learned something about job number one that
Speaker 2: probably it isn't quite as exciting to you as it
Speaker 2: might have been. So love of the week, I mean,
Speaker 2: what can we say this podcast of course and.
Speaker 3: Our listeners and our listeners, we love that you guys
Speaker 3: tune in and we love doing it. Hope to keep
Speaker 3: it up and be back in year eight with another report.
Speaker 2: Yes exactly, well, as we always say, we will be
Speaker 2: back next week starting our eighth year of this with
Speaker 2: more on making work and life fit together.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.
Speaker 3: You can find me Sarah at the shoebox dot com
Speaker 3: or at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram, and you.
Speaker 1: Can find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This
Speaker 1: has been the best of both worlds podcasts.
Speaker 2: Please join us next time for more on making work
Speaker 2: and life work together.