Speaker 1: Pushkin Hay Slight Changers. I have some exciting news. I've
Speaker 1: written a book. It's called The Other Side of Change,
Speaker 1: Who we become when life makes other plans. It's available
Speaker 1: for pre order today at changewithmaya dot com slash book.
Speaker 1: I would appreciate your early support of this project so much.
Speaker 1: Is truly the thing I'm most proud to have created.
Speaker 1: You can find the link to pre order in our
Speaker 1: episode description. Thanks so much, and now onto the show,
Speaker 1: Hay Light Changers. Just a heads up, there's a brief
Speaker 1: mention of sexual assault in this episode at the five
Speaker 1: minute mark. It's not explicit, but if you want to
Speaker 1: skip over that minute, please do and take care.
Speaker 2: I actually thought that I would feel safe if everybody
Speaker 2: around me was okay, that if everybody around me was happy,
Speaker 2: if everybody around me was not disappointed, if everybody around
Speaker 2: me liked me or thought I was cool, then I
Speaker 2: would be okay.
Speaker 1: Mel Robbins is a best selling author and podcast host.
Speaker 2: And the problem with that is that the one thing
Speaker 2: you can't control in life is other people, and so
Speaker 2: to hand your safety and sense of self over to
Speaker 2: other people's moods and thoughts and expectations of you means
Speaker 2: you will forever in your entire life, always feel as
Speaker 2: though you're not in control of what's happening.
Speaker 1: On today's show. To all my people, pleasers, control freaks,
Speaker 1: perfectionists and micromanagers, we're learning to let it all go.
Speaker 1: I'm Maya Schunker, as scientist who studies human behavior, and
Speaker 1: this is a slight change of plans. I show about
Speaker 1: who we are and who we become in the face
Speaker 1: of a big change. If you've ever found yourself bending
Speaker 1: over backwards to meet other people's expectations or trying to
Speaker 1: control their emotions and behaviors, I promise that you are
Speaker 1: not alone. Mel Robbin's, host of the wildly popular The
Speaker 1: Mel Robins podcast, has a new book out called The
Speaker 1: Let Them Theory. It's all about how to stop giving
Speaker 1: other people so much power and to let go of
Speaker 1: our need to control them. To better understand her interest
Speaker 1: in this philosophy, I wanted to know more about Mel's
Speaker 1: relationship with control. What kind of messages do you feel
Speaker 1: that you were absorbing as a child about what it
Speaker 1: meant to live a good life, to live at a
Speaker 1: happy life.
Speaker 2: You know this is a difficult question for me to answer,
Speaker 2: I don't have a lot of memories from my childhood,
Speaker 2: and I know why, and the reason why is because
Speaker 2: I basically kind of lived in a constant state of
Speaker 2: being on edge or being in fight or flight, which
Speaker 2: is very common if you have any past trauma, or
Speaker 2: if you have had any adverse childhood experiences, or if
Speaker 2: you just live in a household where the moods of
Speaker 2: the adults are chaotic, or there are things going on
Speaker 2: that you shouldn't have to deal with as a child.
Speaker 2: But what I would say is that when I think
Speaker 2: about my childhood and very happy times, my mom and
Speaker 2: I would always go to the farmer's market and all
Speaker 2: the farmers would be at their various stalls. My mom
Speaker 2: knew every single person there. She knew whether they had
Speaker 2: kids or grandkids, she knew the name of the dogs.
Speaker 2: As she would be picking up the radishes or squeezing
Speaker 2: the peaches, they'd be chatting up a storm about the
Speaker 2: weather or the crops, or how their.
Speaker 3: Kid is doing. And it really made.
Speaker 2: An impression on me. And so I would say, a
Speaker 2: good life, in my mind, is one where you are
Speaker 2: living your life in relation to other people, and you
Speaker 2: are showing up in a way where you're interested in
Speaker 2: them and their well being and what they're doing.
Speaker 1: It's so interesting because you said living a good life
Speaker 1: is about living in relation to others, and I can
Speaker 1: see that that can be a double edged sword. You
Speaker 1: might become beholden to the views of others and their
Speaker 1: impression of you. And I am curious to know you
Speaker 1: mentioned that you were kind of in a constant state
Speaker 1: of being on edge, probably hypervigilant. Tell me more about
Speaker 1: what your relationship with control was like as it pertained
Speaker 1: to trying to control your environment and the people in it.
Speaker 2: For me as a young kid, it was a lot
Speaker 2: around wondering what mood certain people were going to be
Speaker 2: in in the household, and this sense that I have
Speaker 2: to behave a certain way in order to make sure
Speaker 2: that things are peaceful or people are happy, or nobody's
Speaker 2: mad at me. Like it was just this constant state
Speaker 2: of something's wrong, I'm about to get in trouble, and.
Speaker 3: The you know, I like.
Speaker 2: The thing that I should say is that I had
Speaker 2: this incident when I was in the fourth grade where
Speaker 2: I woke up in the middle of the night at
Speaker 2: a big family ski trip and there was an older
Speaker 2: kid on top of me, and you know, they were
Speaker 2: doing something very inappropriate, and I possmed. I just froze
Speaker 2: and rolled over and I don't even remember how it
Speaker 2: ended because I left my body. And I think from
Speaker 2: that point forward, I had this intense sense in my
Speaker 2: body that something was terribly wrong, and I didn't tell anybody.
Speaker 2: And I didn't tell anybody because as an eight year old,
Speaker 2: I thought somehow I had done something wrong, which meant
Speaker 2: I was going to get in trouble. And that core
Speaker 2: experience I did something wrong and waking up every morning
Speaker 2: feeling like something bad has happened is what haunted me
Speaker 2: all the way into my thirties because I suppressed the experience.
Speaker 2: And so to your question, the way that control played
Speaker 2: out for me is I outsourced it. I actually thought
Speaker 2: that I would feel safe if everybody around me was okay,
Speaker 2: that if everybody around me was happy, if everybody around
Speaker 2: me was not disappointed, if everybody around me liked me
Speaker 2: or thought I was cool, then I would be okay.
Speaker 2: And the problem with that, when we unpack it, is
Speaker 2: that that is the one thing and the one strategy
Speaker 2: that actually will never put you in control of anything,
Speaker 2: because the one thing you can't control in life is
Speaker 2: other people. You can't control what they think, what they do,
Speaker 2: how they feel, what they expect of you, the lies
Speaker 2: they might tell, the disappointment they You can't control any
Speaker 2: of that. And so to hand your safety and sense
Speaker 2: of self over to other people's moods and thoughts and
Speaker 2: expectations of you means you will, forever in your entire life,
Speaker 2: always feel as though you're not in control of what's happening.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: What is so interesting to me, though, is that you
Speaker 1: place an even greater burden on yourself because you are
Speaker 1: both giving power to others while seating that their behavior
Speaker 1: we're a direct function of you and your behaviors. What
Speaker 1: an enormous weight to carry as a young child. And
Speaker 1: I feel like what's coming to mind for me is
Speaker 1: the illusion of control, where we overestimate the degree to
Speaker 1: which we determine outcomes in our lives. But what's really
Speaker 1: interesting is that they study people and they found that
Speaker 1: there's a continuum here where you can move from either
Speaker 1: an internal locus of control to an external locus of control,
Speaker 1: and people with an external locus of control are much
Speaker 1: more comfortable with uncertainty and ambiguity and things not quite
Speaker 1: going to plan because they understand that exogenous factors, the
Speaker 1: external world actually plays a really big role in dictating
Speaker 1: our lives. Then, people who are in the internal locus
Speaker 1: of control, we ascribe events to our own doing, so
Speaker 1: our successes are ours, and our failures are ours, and
Speaker 1: the behaviors of others are ours. Right, And a strong
Speaker 1: internal locus of control is association with greater happiness and
Speaker 1: greater well being and greater purpose overall, except that when
Speaker 1: things don't go according to plan, we're much more likely
Speaker 1: to self blame. We're much more likely to self break
Speaker 1: because we are the only explanation for why things didn't
Speaker 1: go well. And so what I'm hearing is that young
Speaker 1: Mele developed a really powerful internal locus of control where
Speaker 1: everything fell back on you. That's a lot.
Speaker 3: It is a lot.
Speaker 1: So you have this relationship with control when you're a child,
Speaker 1: and then as an adult you run up against the
Speaker 1: limits of your ability to maintain that equanimity in your
Speaker 1: environment when you and your family hit rock bottom, right,
Speaker 1: your husband's business crashes as a result of the Great Recession.
Speaker 3: Oh, and stupidity.
Speaker 2: I mean, like, there's a lot of stupid, like myself
Speaker 2: included like, I'm not going to blame it out there, like.
Speaker 3: There are some things that we did that were just dumb.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I should have known internal locus of control. Gal.
Speaker 1: Of course, you're going to make sure that you take accountability.
Speaker 1: I love this. You're eight hundred thousand dollars in debt
Speaker 1: at this point. You were in your early forty one,
Speaker 1: forty one yep, trying to raise three kids. Bring me
Speaker 1: back to that moment and what that might have taught
Speaker 1: you or not taught you about kind of the limits
Speaker 1: of your control, or how you might want to rethink
Speaker 1: that relationship.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, there's so much that it taught me.
Speaker 2: You know, when you're in a rock bottom moment, the
Speaker 2: worst thing somebody can say to you is you're going
Speaker 2: to look back on this as a blessing, Like you
Speaker 2: literally want to punch people in the face.
Speaker 4: No.
Speaker 2: I was forty one, and you know, look, I'm a
Speaker 2: very ambitious person, and never in my life had I
Speaker 2: made a vision board where I had cut out images
Speaker 2: that said bankruptcy, alcoholism, million dollars in debt, foreclosure, divorce.
Speaker 2: That was not part of the plan, of course, And
Speaker 2: what's interesting is We can talk reinvention and pivots and
Speaker 2: everything saying all we want right, but when it's happening
Speaker 2: to you, it's a different experience because what happens is
Speaker 2: your emotions takeover and you start to tell yourself a
Speaker 2: story that you're never going to get out of this.
Speaker 2: And for me, what that meant is, I lost my job.
Speaker 2: We were eight hundred thousand dollars in debt because we
Speaker 2: were complete freaking idiots by cashing out our life savings
Speaker 2: and shoving it into his business. After one location of
Speaker 2: a pizza restaurant went okay, and then all of a sudden,
Speaker 2: you know, two thousand and seven hits two thousand and eight,
Speaker 2: the recession hits our houses upside down. We have leans
Speaker 2: on it. We've cashed out everything we own. I've got
Speaker 2: three kids under the age of ten. Friends and family
Speaker 2: have invested in this business, and the bills are starting
Speaker 2: to pile up on the counter, and I'm pulling a
Speaker 2: kid out of town soccer because we can't afford one
Speaker 2: hundred and twenty five dollars. And I'm having trouble some
Speaker 2: weeks because Chris is not getting paid and I don't
Speaker 2: have a job. Putting gas in the car tank. Financial
Speaker 2: stress is crushing and you can't escape it, and there's
Speaker 2: a lot of shame around it, and so I drank
Speaker 2: myself into the ground. I became very angry and avoidant.
Speaker 2: I started blaming everything on my husband, and I became paralyzed.
Speaker 2: I was in like a frozen trauma response, which is
Speaker 2: the exact same thing that happened to me when I
Speaker 2: was eight years old. And because I felt like I
Speaker 2: couldn't control everything that was happening, I just ran away
Speaker 2: from it. I got drunk, I yelled at my husband.
Speaker 2: I became a person. I didn't recognize the kids were
Speaker 2: missing the bus. I couldn't or I didn't think I
Speaker 2: could control the demise that was looming. But I could
Speaker 2: control avoiding it. I could hit the snooze button six times.
Speaker 2: I could numb myself at night, I could avoid the bills.
Speaker 2: Because avoidance is a major form of control, anger is
Speaker 2: a major form of controlled and so my control was
Speaker 2: still there, it was just being aimed at the wrong things.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so that leads us to the need for let
Speaker 1: them bring me back to the moment when you were
Speaker 1: first exposed to it. Obviously, it's rooted in ancient wisdom.
Speaker 1: But you know, I hear wise things all the time,
Speaker 1: and they kind of can just go in one year
Speaker 1: and out the other, Like I want to know what
Speaker 1: made it stick for you in that moment in your life.
Speaker 2: I've been trying to be less controlling my whole life.
Speaker 2: I've tried to be stoic. I have tried to be
Speaker 2: more Buddhist. I have tried to manage my response. And
Speaker 2: it's one thing when you're sharing ideas. It's a whole
Speaker 2: other thing when the teacher shows up and the student
Speaker 2: is ready. It's the difference between concept and the moment
Speaker 2: when that concept hits you like a freaking sledgeing, exactly.
Speaker 2: And so I was at the high school prom with
Speaker 2: my son. I was being a super micromanagy mom, really annoying.
Speaker 2: If you've ever been in a situation where you're all
Speaker 2: stressed and the words are coming out of your mouth
Speaker 2: and you wish you could shove them back in, that
Speaker 2: was me.
Speaker 3: So I was just.
Speaker 2: Micromanaging him, you know, you got a tux and let
Speaker 2: me tee the thing, and shoving the flowers at him
Speaker 2: even though his date doesn't want a corsage. And now
Speaker 2: it's starting to rain, and I'm like, you can't get
Speaker 2: your shoes wet, and her hair is going to get ruined,
Speaker 2: and you can't go to the taco stand before dinner
Speaker 2: because then your tuxedo is going to be wet. And
Speaker 2: my daughter was home and she reaches out and grabs
Speaker 2: my bicep and she's like, you're being annoying. If she
Speaker 2: doesn't want flowers, letter, if it's going to ruin his shoes,
Speaker 2: let them. If he wants to get soaking wet, let them.
Speaker 2: If she's going to ruin her hair, letter, And it
Speaker 2: was just like this, let them, let them, let them.
Speaker 2: It's their prom, not yours for crying out loud. Let
Speaker 2: them do what they want to do. And there was
Speaker 2: just something about the nails of my biceps and the
Speaker 2: cringe in her voice and the cascade of the let,
Speaker 2: let let that my shoulders has dropped, and I just
Speaker 2: kind of had this obvious epiphany where I'm just like,
Speaker 2: why am I worried about this?
Speaker 3: Seriously? Why why am I? Why am I concerned about this?
Speaker 2: And the second that I just stopped trying to control it,
Speaker 2: I felt peace, And then I could see that everybody
Speaker 2: around me felt peaceful, And so I just started to say,
Speaker 2: let them in any moment in my life where things
Speaker 2: just felt stressful, traffic, let them the person's root in
Speaker 2: front of me. You know, some days I've got the
Speaker 2: energy to step in and be like, hey, you know,
Speaker 2: they're they're they're doing the.
Speaker 3: Best they can.
Speaker 2: Some days they're just like, let them. I'm not going
Speaker 2: to be the you know, manners police today. I just
Speaker 2: don't have the energy for this. My mom's in a
Speaker 2: bad mood, let her be in a bad mood. My
Speaker 2: dad's disappointed, to be disappointed, let me show up with
Speaker 2: a little bit more compassion. And so I just started
Speaker 2: saying let them, let them, let them. And it was
Speaker 2: so profound. And the first insight that I had was
Speaker 2: I could not believe how much time I wasted on
Speaker 2: stupid things. I couldn't believe how stressed out I was
Speaker 2: due to dumb things. If you allow zoom calls and
Speaker 2: traffic and you know, somebody's mood or a curt email
Speaker 2: to constantly keep your amygdala humming and your body in
Speaker 2: a stressed out state, you're gonna go home and take
Speaker 2: it out in your family. And that's why you don't
Speaker 2: have time and.
Speaker 1: Energy because it's being sad.
Speaker 2: Because it's getting drained all day long. Yes, And so
Speaker 2: it became this like boundary with the world where I
Speaker 2: started to recognize, wait a minute, my time and energy
Speaker 2: has value, and I need to protect that time and
Speaker 2: energy because I want to use that time and energy
Speaker 2: to either better my life or to better the world
Speaker 2: around me. And if I'm constantly allowing all this stuff
Speaker 2: to drain me, I'm never going to have the energy
Speaker 2: to do anything about what's wrong in the world or
Speaker 2: what as bothering me in my relationships or with my health.
Speaker 1: We'll be back in a moment with a slight change
Speaker 1: of plans. On the night of her son's prom, Mel
Speaker 1: Robbins was trying to micromanage everything, like where her son
Speaker 1: and his friend should go for dinner or whether his
Speaker 1: date should wear a corsage. Then Mel's daughter said two
Speaker 1: simple words, it's let them, And for whatever reason, it
Speaker 1: was exactly what Mel needed to hear. She's held onto
Speaker 1: those words ever since and has written an entire book
Speaker 1: about it. I asked her to break it down in
Speaker 1: more detail.
Speaker 3: For me, the let them theory is simple.
Speaker 2: The more you let other people live their lives the
Speaker 2: better your life gets, and the more you learn how
Speaker 2: to let people be who they are and who they're not,
Speaker 2: the better your relationships get. And the theory itself is
Speaker 2: about power and control, and the way that it works
Speaker 2: is simple. There are two steps, and the first step
Speaker 2: gets all of the fame, but it's the second step
Speaker 2: that's actually where your power is. The first part is
Speaker 2: let them. So when you're stressed out, when you're annoyed,
Speaker 2: when you're hurt, when you're frustrated, when you're confused, when
Speaker 2: you're just like feeling like somebody's disrespecting you or hurting you.
Speaker 2: As weird as it sounds, you're going to quietly say
Speaker 2: to yourself, let them. And I want to be very
Speaker 2: clear about something. This is not a theory that says
Speaker 2: you should let people hurt you. This is a theory
Speaker 2: about where your control is and where your power is.
Speaker 2: And the mistake that we make when we're in a
Speaker 2: situation where there is disrespect or there is some kind
Speaker 2: of hurtful behavior is we believe that that other person
Speaker 2: is going to change. We get gas lit into thinking
Speaker 2: that the power is in changing the other person. Let
Speaker 2: them is simply a tool that reminds you that hoping
Speaker 2: that they're going to change, or pouring time and energy
Speaker 2: into trying to make someone else change isn't where your
Speaker 2: power is. Let them is kind of you saying, Okay,
Speaker 2: this is who this person is. Their behavior is the truth.
Speaker 2: Let me is the second part. Let me is where
Speaker 2: you say to yourself, I can't control this other person.
Speaker 2: Let me decide what I'm going to think about this,
Speaker 2: Let me decide what I'm going to do or don't
Speaker 2: do about this, and let me decide how I'm going
Speaker 2: to process my own feelings about this.
Speaker 3: And so in normal day to.
Speaker 2: Day's circumstances, the way that this works is if somebody's disappointed,
Speaker 2: let them be disappointed.
Speaker 3: You can't make it.
Speaker 2: To the thirty second birthday party where you're going to
Speaker 2: meet at a Mexican restaurant and split a check with
Speaker 2: fourteen people and not even talk to your friend that's
Speaker 2: holding the birthday, and you've had a long day at
Speaker 2: work and you just would rather go to a yoga.
Speaker 1: Out of my brain, mel how do you know my life? Like?
Speaker 2: Literally, let them be disappointed, because here's what I want.
Speaker 1: You to a meditarian and I don't drink alcohol so
Speaker 1: I always get ripped off when you do the fourteen
Speaker 1: persons split.
Speaker 2: Yes, because they're splitting the check and you didn't have
Speaker 2: anything to drink, and it's loud as hell and you
Speaker 2: don't want to be there, and it takes too long.
Speaker 2: And so here's the thing. Let your friend be disappointed.
Speaker 2: Tell them that you're not going to come tonight. It's
Speaker 2: been a busy week at work. Let them be disappointed, acknowledgment,
Speaker 2: and then let me remind myself that I need to
Speaker 2: take care of myself. And let me ask my friend
Speaker 2: if they'd be willing to go to a yoga class
Speaker 2: this weekend and go get some tea, because I'd actually
Speaker 2: like to catch up with you.
Speaker 3: One on one.
Speaker 2: And that's how you handle that situation and kind of
Speaker 2: a day to day thing. In a more serious situation,
Speaker 2: if you're dealing with somebody emotionally immature or that has
Speaker 2: a very very challenging personality style, which I have in
Speaker 2: my life, a person like this. The thing that I
Speaker 2: can see now that I've been practicing let them and
Speaker 2: let me, which is really about boundaries, what's mine to
Speaker 2: own and what's yours? Down is I, for years just
Speaker 2: expected this person to change. I wish they would. I
Speaker 2: wish the dynamic would have been different, and so I
Speaker 2: would go into every experienced And one of the things
Speaker 2: that let them did is let them force me to
Speaker 2: practice radical acceptance. Let them forced me to see the
Speaker 2: situation and the person that I'm dealing with as they are,
Speaker 2: instead of constantly explaining away behavior that I've been explaining
Speaker 2: away for a very long time and somehow turning it
Speaker 2: back as it's my fault. And then the let me
Speaker 2: part helps me start to understand that if I'm going
Speaker 2: to let this person be who they are, then let
Speaker 2: me decide how much time and energy I'm going to
Speaker 2: put with this person. Let me protect myself when I'm
Speaker 2: around this person. Let me remind myself I can leave
Speaker 2: a conversation or a dinner table, or a text chain,
Speaker 2: or a date or an interview or like a family
Speaker 2: thing anytime I want. And it starts to slowly remind
Speaker 2: you in these dynamics that we get stuck with with
Speaker 2: other people that there are little things you can do
Speaker 2: when you first learn to separate yourself from managing the
Speaker 2: other person and focus more on protecting yourself in the situation.
Speaker 1: When it comes to accountability, which is something that you
Speaker 1: raised when I reflect on my personal life. Granted, this
Speaker 1: is also growing up in an Indian immigrant family where
Speaker 1: my parents had no filters around giving me feedback. Some
Speaker 1: of my greatest moments of growth stemmed from the people
Speaker 1: in my life not just letting me be a certain way.
Speaker 1: They didn't use let them. Instead, they were very forthcoming
Speaker 1: with me about my weaknesses or their needs or maybe
Speaker 1: how I'd even let them down. And so in their
Speaker 1: articulating those feelings to me, I in turn was challenged
Speaker 1: in some way. I was able to think differently. I
Speaker 1: was able to do things differently. And so, how can
Speaker 1: we apply the let them theory in the right places
Speaker 1: so that it doesn't stop other people from engaging in
Speaker 1: difficult conversations that could help us become better people, or
Speaker 1: us engaging with other people to try to help them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, let me is where you engage in the conversation.
Speaker 2: Let me is where you tell the truth. Let me
Speaker 2: is where you approach the people in your life that
Speaker 2: you worried about, and instead of judging them, you approach
Speaker 2: it with compassion and concern and support. Hey, I'm worried
Speaker 2: about you. I notice you're not acting like yourself now
Speaker 2: that you're dating this person? How are you feeling about
Speaker 2: the relationship. I'm here to support you, you know, is
Speaker 2: there anything I can do to support you? Is there
Speaker 2: anything you want to do about this? Instead, what we
Speaker 2: do is we avoid the conversation. We judge, We just
Speaker 2: kind of don't have the hard conversation. We don't push
Speaker 2: the people in our lives because we're afraid of having
Speaker 2: any kind of tension with somebody. And so instead, I
Speaker 2: think we have an epidemic of people walking around very
Speaker 2: emotionally immature, stressed out, avoiding the conversations and avoiding taking
Speaker 2: accountability for your needs and actually asking for it in
Speaker 2: a way that is respectful and not emotional, instead of
Speaker 2: constantly avoiding the conversation, then resenting people, and then being
Speaker 2: pissed off. And so let's go back to what we've
Speaker 2: been talking about. We've been talking about control. Every single
Speaker 2: one of us needs to feel in control of our lives.
Speaker 2: When we don't feel in control of our decisions or
Speaker 2: our future, what we're doing this afternoon, or what's going
Speaker 2: to happen at work tomorrow, we start to feel unsafe
Speaker 2: and a little on edge, and the mistake that we
Speaker 2: make is when someone else's behavior because they're dating somebody
Speaker 2: we hate, or they're letting themselves go, or they're not
Speaker 2: quote trying at school, or they can't get a job,
Speaker 2: and now you're starting to worry that they're unmotivated. When
Speaker 2: their behavior worries us, we now feel out of control.
Speaker 2: So we step in and try to fix it. And
Speaker 2: what happens when you do that is that you bump
Speaker 2: up against that person's need for autonomy and control, and
Speaker 2: so they're not going to do what you ask them
Speaker 2: to do.
Speaker 3: They might do it once to appease you and get
Speaker 3: you authors back, yes.
Speaker 2: But they're not actually going to create lasting change because
Speaker 2: the change for a person has to come from within.
Speaker 2: And so one of the reasons why the let them
Speaker 2: theory is going to help you in situations where somebody
Speaker 2: is in your life and you want to change them,
Speaker 2: and we all we want to change everybody in our lives,
Speaker 2: got opinions about everybody.
Speaker 3: So the way that you do is you let them
Speaker 3: be there and let me try a different approach.
Speaker 1: You know, what I'm hearing, what I'm reflecting on as
Speaker 1: you're sharing these sorts of stories, is that there's a
Speaker 1: dynamic interplay between let them and let me throughout the
Speaker 1: entire duration of the experience. These are like flexible categories.
Speaker 1: You can start with let me, maybe you sit down,
Speaker 1: you have a conversation. But what I say, see let
Speaker 1: them serving as is a psychological safeguard such that if
Speaker 1: you engage in the let me in good faith and
Speaker 1: you explore all the options, you have a safe landing
Speaker 1: with let them, which is, if I'm not able to
Speaker 1: change them, I'm not going to allow it to erode
Speaker 1: my well being and mental health.
Speaker 3: Yes, or this relationship or this.
Speaker 2: Relationship, because part of what actually creates friction and tension
Speaker 2: and distance in a relationship is the opinion that somebody
Speaker 2: else should change.
Speaker 3: Yeah. And what I've.
Speaker 2: Found is if you create this space where you let
Speaker 2: people be, you let people have their feelings, You let
Speaker 2: people have their opinions, You let people have their expectations,
Speaker 2: you let people have their timeline for their own healing,
Speaker 2: and you hold a boundary that creates acceptance of that
Speaker 2: person as they are, or at least witnessing them clearly
Speaker 2: as they are. Now you have a separate boundary in
Speaker 2: relation to them, which has let me, let me remind
Speaker 2: myself that the only power that I have in this
Speaker 2: relationship is myself, and if I want the relationship to change,
Speaker 2: the only thing that will change it is me. And
Speaker 2: if I focus on what's in my control, which is
Speaker 2: what I think about this, what I do or don't do,
Speaker 2: and how I process my emotions, I change how I
Speaker 2: relate to this person, how much time I give, how
Speaker 2: much energy I change, how reactive I am, and that
Speaker 2: shifts the dynamic entirely. You know, the truth is this
Speaker 2: thing brings you closer to people in your life because
Speaker 2: when you create space for people to have different opinions
Speaker 2: or disappointments or expectations and you don't make it your
Speaker 2: job to change them or manage them, you're now actually
Speaker 2: in relation with the person as they are, and you're
Speaker 2: not in relationship with the possibility or what they hope
Speaker 2: they'd be, or trying to change them or the tension
Speaker 2: of the die. Now, I just see you exactly as
Speaker 2: you are, And even though I don't understand your opinion,
Speaker 2: if I'm the kind of person that wants to understand it,
Speaker 2: let me try to understand why you think the way
Speaker 2: that you do.
Speaker 3: Instead of judging you and not talking to you about it.
Speaker 1: I love what you just said because I just interviewed
Speaker 1: Amanda Knox for the show and she was saying, true
Speaker 1: freedom for her is seeing the world as it actually is,
Speaker 1: not as you believe it should be. And you know,
Speaker 1: this is a woman who's faced wrongful conviction after wrongful conviction.
Speaker 1: She knows what she's talking about, and she felt like
Speaker 1: that was the one definition of freedom that no one
Speaker 1: could ever take away from her. And when you're saying
Speaker 1: that to me, it's like, actually, what a beautiful thing
Speaker 1: to engage with the world and that people in it
Speaker 1: as they are. Yes, what a wonderful way to live.
Speaker 1: Just even hearing you say that sends tingles down my spine. Yeah,
Speaker 1: to free ourselves of every expectation and every preconceived notion
Speaker 1: and every hope of what we want them to be
Speaker 1: or could be, or how we want to be with
Speaker 1: them whatever. It is, Like, we come to every social
Speaker 1: interaction with so much, like we carry so much mental
Speaker 1: and emotional baggage that just surrounds that interaction. And imagine
Speaker 1: you just like strip away that artifice. What a raw
Speaker 1: and beautiful interaction you could have. There's no agenda anymore.
Speaker 2: No there's no agenda because you just see people as
Speaker 2: they are, and you know, to your point, I think
Speaker 2: so much of this comes from the conditioning that we
Speaker 2: have about human relationships as children.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: If you think about the experience of being a child,
Speaker 2: your entire conditioning around relationships is from a power dynamic
Speaker 2: where somebody expects things of you and tells you what
Speaker 2: to do and parents you, and that's their job. But
Speaker 2: then we become eighteen years old and we think that
Speaker 2: that's what relationships are, that we're supposed to parent other people,
Speaker 2: and that's not what adult relationships should be. Learning how
Speaker 2: to see somebody exactly as they are and exactly as
Speaker 2: they're not, and then choosing how you're going to show
Speaker 2: up with them as they are that is a just groundbreaking, late, freeing,
Speaker 2: beautiful idea. It's certainly brought me closer to people in
Speaker 2: my life, and it's made me confront how much expectation
Speaker 2: and judgment and opinions that I have about my kids,
Speaker 2: about my husband, about anything. Yeah, and learn how to
Speaker 2: have boundaries between your desire and conditioning, to manage people's
Speaker 2: happiness and moods and hold space for people's experience instead,
Speaker 2: and one of the other beautiful things that's happened for
Speaker 2: me as a parent is that something was happening with
Speaker 2: one of my kids that was upsetting. A breakup, problems
Speaker 2: with friends, issues with money, anxiety, all this stuff that's
Speaker 2: just normal stuff of life, right. I would just rush
Speaker 2: in and try to take it away. I would come
Speaker 2: in with the advice. I would tell them what to do,
Speaker 2: and I was stepping over the actual thing that needed
Speaker 2: to be done, which is literally listen, validate somebody's feeling,
Speaker 2: let them have the experience. And then here's the most
Speaker 2: important thing. If you believe in the person's capacity and
Speaker 2: capability to move through this challenge and learn from it,
Speaker 2: then your role in their life is very different because
Speaker 2: you move from a fixer to a person who stands
Speaker 2: on the sidelines, reminding and coaching that you have the
Speaker 2: ability to deal with this, to learn from it, to
Speaker 2: survive this, to come stronger from it. You put people
Speaker 2: back into the driver's seat of their life. As you're
Speaker 2: sitting there next to them saying, I can see your
Speaker 2: heart broken. You know, I'm sorry is happening to you,
Speaker 2: and I believe in your ability to move through this.
Speaker 2: I believe that you're going to be okay. But is
Speaker 2: there anything that you want to do about this right now?
Speaker 1: Yeah, when you look back now on young mel and
Speaker 1: what she felt she needed in order to have a
Speaker 1: stable existence, which is to manage and control her environment
Speaker 1: right the people in it, and for all of them,
Speaker 1: to make them all happy, do all the right things,
Speaker 1: check all the boxes. And then you reflect on yourself today.
Speaker 1: I mean, the evolution's extraordinary. How would you summarize what
Speaker 1: your current relationship with control is in relation to other people?
Speaker 2: Well, it is a daily practice because everybody has a
Speaker 2: hardwired need to feel in control and that's never going away.
Speaker 2: But boy, has it been transformational to really have tools
Speaker 2: to be able to help me decipher what's in my
Speaker 2: control and what's not. What do I have power over
Speaker 2: and what do I not? Where do I want to
Speaker 2: give my time and attention because time and intention and
Speaker 2: your energy those are the single most valuable things you
Speaker 2: have in life because where you put your time and
Speaker 2: what you pour your energy into determines the experience you
Speaker 2: have in life. I mean, it's just been life changing
Speaker 2: because I actually do feel more in control and I
Speaker 2: more importantly feel very peaceful most of the time.
Speaker 1: Hey, thanks so much for listening. Just as a reminder,
Speaker 1: you can pre order my new book, The Other Side
Speaker 1: of Change at the link in our episode description or
Speaker 1: at Change with maya dot com slash book and join
Speaker 1: me next time when we hear from best selling author
Speaker 1: and podcast host Glennon Doyle about her lifelong search for belonging.
Speaker 4: Many times in my life, I've had moments where I'm like, Oh,
Speaker 4: I'm out of here. I won't spend another moment in
Speaker 4: this cafeteria, in this high school, in this marriage, in
Speaker 4: this life.
Speaker 1: That's next week on A Slight Change of Plans. See
Speaker 1: you then. A Slight Change of Plans is created, written
Speaker 1: and executive produced by me Maya Schunker. The Slight Change
Speaker 1: family includes our showrunner Tyler Green, our senior editor Kate
Speaker 1: Parkinson Morgan, our producers Britney Cronin and Megan Lubin, and
Speaker 1: our sound engineer Erica Huang. Louis Scara wrote our delightful
Speaker 1: theme song, and Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals. A
Speaker 1: Slight Change of Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries,
Speaker 1: so big thanks to everyone there, and of course a
Speaker 1: very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. You can follow a
Speaker 1: slight change of plans on Instagram at doctor Maya Schunker
Speaker 1: see you next week.
Speaker 2: Can I just tell you something, the worse I look,
Speaker 2: the better our content does. And I'm looking pretty decent today.
Speaker 3: So we're fun.
Speaker 1: We're totally screwed.